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Speaker 1: I'm Josh Hammer, and this is the Josh Hammer Show.

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Speaker 1: John Yu and Mike Drand join us later in the

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Speaker 1: show to discuss both the geopolitical and the legal aspects

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Speaker 1: of the ongoing joint the United States israel military campaign

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Speaker 1: against the Ronnie regime. Also wishing my fellow Jews a

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Speaker 1: happy Porum Ajak Sumeia. Towards the end of the show

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Speaker 1: today we will talk about some of the timeless lessons,

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Speaker 1: also the blatant symbolism I believe that is shining through

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Speaker 1: this year's holiday of Porum, celebrating an event that happened

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Speaker 1: two and a half money ago in Persia, of all lands.

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Speaker 1: But for now we begin with modern day Persia and

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Speaker 1: the ongoing joint American Israeli military campaign against the Ronnie regime.

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Speaker 1: Which is a somewhat admittedly misleading way to frame it

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Speaker 1: if you recall the core argument that we made on

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Speaker 1: yesterday's show was that this is not Donald Trump and

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Speaker 1: Bibntinia who's starting a new war against the Irani regime. Rather,

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Speaker 1: this is best viewed as Donald Trump seeking to do

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Speaker 1: that which he does best, seeking to end conflict, seeking

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Speaker 1: to end wars. Donald Trump ran for president three times

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Speaker 1: now in twenty sixteen, twenty twenty and twenty twenty four

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Speaker 1: on trying to wind down wars and end conflict, which

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Speaker 1: has led many people to throw their arms up and say,

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Speaker 1: what are you doing, bro, what are you doing here?

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Speaker 1: They did this a little bit when it came to

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Speaker 1: the BE two bombing run in Iran last year. They

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Speaker 1: did a little bit when it came to the Maduro

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Speaker 1: operation in Venezuela in January or though that died on quickly,

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Speaker 1: and now they're really doing it in a much greater

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Speaker 1: volume this time around. And the number one thing that

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Speaker 1: you have to understand here in responding to this particular

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Speaker 1: line of argumentation is that Americans, because we live in

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Speaker 1: the greatest country in the world, we don't really think,

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Speaker 1: frankly about worse. This country has not been attacked by

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Speaker 1: foreign powers other than rogue lone Wolf's the cartels.

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Speaker 2: That are there.

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Speaker 1: We haven't really been truly, truly, truly attacked since nine

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Speaker 1: to eleven. And that was even non state actor, that

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Speaker 1: was al Qaeda, the last time that the American homeland

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Speaker 1: has has been attacked by state actors. We can get

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Speaker 1: into some forny details when it comes to Nazi submarines

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Speaker 1: off the coast of Long Island in World War Two.

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Speaker 1: If you really want to go there, but really in

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Speaker 1: earnest there, you have to go back a very very

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Speaker 1: long time there, two centuries or so, until America had

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Speaker 1: was really taxed. So so we don't only think that

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Speaker 1: we're at war with Iran, but the pointier folks, Iran

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Speaker 1: is at war with us.

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Speaker 2: They have been.

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Speaker 1: We don't have to feel it to understand that is,

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Speaker 1: frankly the reality in the ground. Frankly, not only are

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Speaker 1: they at war with us, but they have been pursuing

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Speaker 1: some of the worst weapons known to man con for decades.

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Speaker 1: The Iranian nuclear program is infamous in the in the

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Speaker 1: international arms reduction community, those who are seeking to wind

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Speaker 1: down the use of the world's most dangerous weapons. The

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Speaker 1: International Inspectors, the international community to this that there, the IAEA,

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Speaker 1: all these various alphabet soup agencies, the Nine Nations, and

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Speaker 1: other transnational intitutions that you've been hearing there for decades

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Speaker 1: there they have been pulling out their hair and frustration

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Speaker 1: at the Iranians when it comes above all to their

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Speaker 1: nuclear program and second and narily also to their ballistic

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Speaker 1: missile program. Thirdly to their funding of terrorist proxies, the

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Speaker 1: fact that the world's number one state sponsor of jihad.

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Speaker 1: We're actually now just learning some of the really grave

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Speaker 1: details to potentially how close they might have been prior

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Speaker 1: to his operation actually to getting a nuclear weapon in

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Speaker 1: earnest So, for instance, go ahead and take a listen

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Speaker 1: to this clib. This is from Steve Whitcoff, the US envoy.

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Speaker 1: Now bear in mind, Steve Whitcoff not from the hawkish

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Speaker 1: wing of the Republican Party. He's not a John Bolton,

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Speaker 1: not a Mike Pompeio. Wickoff, someone who in many ways

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Speaker 1: seems seems to be more sympathetic to the to the

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Speaker 1: jd vance, perhaps even bordering on Tucker Carlson view there,

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Speaker 1: and even Wikoff was really starting to sound the alarm

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Speaker 1: actually on the Iranian threat. Let's go ahead and listen

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Speaker 1: to this with Steve Wickoff.

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Speaker 3: In that first meeting, both the Iranian negotiators said to

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Speaker 3: us directly with you know, no shame that they controlled

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Speaker 3: four hundred and sixty kilograms of sixty percent and they're

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Speaker 3: aware that that could make eleven nuclear bombs. And that

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Speaker 3: was the beginning of the negotiating stance.

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Speaker 4: So that's that's they were. They were proud of it.

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Speaker 4: They were proud that.

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Speaker 3: They had evaded all sorts of oversight protocols to get

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Speaker 3: to a place where they could deliver eleven nuclear bombs.

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Speaker 2: All right, So eleven nuclear bombs.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot to put a mildly I again with

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Speaker 1: wick Cough is not He's not a saber rattling kind

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Speaker 1: of guy. He's really not a lot a lot of

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Speaker 1: very aggressive, more hawkish people. I can just tell you anecdotally.

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Speaker 1: Folks who I've been whispering to about foreign policy for years,

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Speaker 1: a lot of these folks hate Steve Whickkoff. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: name names here because they view him as overly duffish,

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Speaker 1: overly sympathetic to the to the isolations, being the part

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Speaker 1: of there. So this guy is sound in the larm.

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Speaker 1: This guy, okay, I mean made that means that the

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Speaker 1: threat actually was rising to a pretty serious level from

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Speaker 1: the United States perspective.

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Speaker 5: There.

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Speaker 1: Pete Hexeth had this remarkable press conference yesterday at the Pentagon.

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Speaker 1: We played some of those clips as well, Marco Rubio

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Speaker 1: getting in on the action as well. Mark Rubio, who

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Speaker 1: who's really living out his dream. I mean, is there

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Speaker 1: anyone who has been having more of an extended moment

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Speaker 1: than Mark Rubio, someone who was able to take out

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Speaker 1: Nicholas Maduro in the law enforcement operation in January. There

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Speaker 1: Rubio a long standing iron hawk. He is now overseeing

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Speaker 1: this effort against the Iranian regime. There the rumor, the

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Speaker 1: big rumor, especially here in Florida where I live, is

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Speaker 1: that it is Cuba that could potentially be next, certainly

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Speaker 1: if Mark Rubio has anything to say about it. There,

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Speaker 1: I've had that on my bingo card, as the close

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Speaker 1: listeners and viewers have for a while now. I have

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Speaker 1: long been saying that Cuba is likely the next shoe

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Speaker 1: to drop here, and we shall see if that transpired.

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Speaker 1: But for now, Mark Rubio saying that the hardest parts

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Speaker 1: of this US military campaign actually seemingly are yet to come.

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Speaker 2: Here was Mark Rubia speaking.

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Speaker 6: They're suffering a tremendous amount of damage. Honestly, again, I'm

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Speaker 6: not going to give away the details of our tactical efforts,

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Speaker 6: but the hardest hits are yet to come from the

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Speaker 6: US military. The next phase will be even more punishing

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Speaker 6: on Iran than it is right now. Someone with streaming.

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Speaker 6: How long will it take. I don't know how long

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Speaker 6: it'll take. We have objectives. We will do this as

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Speaker 6: long as it takes to achieve those objectives, and we

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Speaker 6: will achieve those objectives. The world will be a safer

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Speaker 6: place when we're done with this.

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Speaker 2: Operation, So no doubt about that.

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Speaker 1: This is ultimately one of the greatest arguments for this

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Speaker 1: campaign is there are a lot of ways to playing

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Speaker 1: this campaign from the American national interest. Certainly, this regime

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Speaker 1: that's been a ward us for forty seven years, they

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Speaker 1: god willing, are going to go away, and byways. On

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Speaker 1: that note of the regime going away, just this morning,

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Speaker 1: actually there was a meeting in the Iranian city of

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Speaker 1: komb not Tehran, a different city that has religiou significance

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Speaker 1: to Schiai Muslims, who are the majority there in Iran,

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Speaker 1: Iran's Assembly of Experts, it's called, was there to essentially

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Speaker 1: tally up the votes to elect a new supreme leader.

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Speaker 1: They're about ninety senior clerics of the Islamist theocracy there

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Speaker 1: this morning, the city of comb and they were literally

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Speaker 1: submitting their ballast. It's basically like the papal conclave to

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Speaker 1: announce the new pope. In this case, it's a new Iotola,

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Speaker 1: the new Supreme leader, and Israel blue the whole thing up,

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Speaker 1: like literally just just blew the entire thing up. So

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Speaker 1: they're all now dead. As a friend said to me,

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Speaker 1: making a joke about the papal conclave, he said, black

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Speaker 1: smoke from the Iotola conclave means they haven't picked a

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Speaker 1: new Supreme leader yet, right, which, if you know anything

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Speaker 1: about the actual Vatican conclave, that's pretty pretty funny stuff,

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Speaker 1: to be honest with you. There is potential, and here

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Speaker 1: is where I will sound a slight note of caution.

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Speaker 1: There is potential for a future where is what is

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Speaker 1: heretofore been an extraordinarily close binational effort between the United

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Speaker 1: States and Israel. There is potential for a future where

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Speaker 1: the national interests start to diverge. I'm just saying it's

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Speaker 1: possible right now. The United States in Asrael have the

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Speaker 1: exact same objectives. Systemically degrade the IRGC, these on provolutionary garkorps,

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Speaker 1: systemically degrade ballistic missiles, systemtically degrade the clarity of the theocracy,

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Speaker 1: all of it. The Navy sink the Navy, all of us.

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Speaker 1: That is the joint effort where there could be potential.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's gonna happen. I'm just saying where

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Speaker 1: there's the possibility potential is if Trump starts to get

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Speaker 1: substantial blowback. Right now, he has been firm as can be.

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump had this hilarious quotey I say there where

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Speaker 1: he basically said, oh, they said they're gonna get it

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Speaker 1: bored of this, Well, let me tell you I'm not

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Speaker 1: bored yet.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he's clearly enjoying. Donald Trump hates Iran.

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Speaker 1: I had a senior State to part official who I

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Speaker 1: won't name, tell me last year. He said, there's one

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Speaker 1: thing you really need to understand about Donald Trump's approach

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Speaker 1: to the Middle East. Okay, there's a lot of noise

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Speaker 1: out there, lost speculation, maybe this person is not with him,

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Speaker 1: maybe that person not with him there, or all these

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Speaker 1: stupid podcasters like Tucker and Megan and Canvas there. And

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Speaker 1: what the State of Partificial said is you have to

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Speaker 1: remember that Donald Trump's been around for a long time,

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Speaker 1: and when it comes to the Middle East, it's really

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Speaker 1: quite similar for him. He hates Iron and he loves Israel.

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Speaker 1: So that is clearly the case. That is clearly playing

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Speaker 1: it right now. I'm just saying that right now, it's

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Speaker 1: all fine. There's a possibility that if Trump starts to

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Speaker 1: get more and more pressure, if the polling starts to

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Speaker 1: take a real dive. Right now, the polling on the

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Speaker 1: run operation is somewhat mixed. From the broader potty politic,

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Speaker 1: you can potentially foresee a world, potentially for sea world

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Speaker 1: in which Israel maybe wants to go more strongly for

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Speaker 1: outright regime change. The United States is willing to stop

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Speaker 1: short there starts to negotiate with this remnant. It would

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Speaker 1: truly be a remnant of these corrupt IRGC officials who

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Speaker 1: might be willing to go in there and try to

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Speaker 1: run the country. I'm not saying it's happening. I'm just

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Speaker 1: saying it's possible. It's something that I have that I

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Speaker 1: am looking out for. But for now, there is all

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Speaker 1: the more reason in the world for the United States

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Speaker 1: to continue to keep on going really hard. Actually, just

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Speaker 1: yesterday on Monday, the United States Embassy in Saudi Arabia

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Speaker 1: was actually attacked. It was hit in a direct rike

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Speaker 1: by two Iranian drones. Thank goodness. The American staff at

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Speaker 1: that embassy in Riad was previously evacuated there. But Iran

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Speaker 1: is still lashing out all throughout the region. They are

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Speaker 1: still lashing out, not just at Israel, which continues to

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Speaker 1: take the the brunt of the incoming, but their audients

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Speaker 1: have lashed out a ton of Misselan drones at the UAE.

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Speaker 1: Above all the ny babamarrates. They are attacking Bahrain, Katar. Katar,

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Speaker 1: actually Iran's formerly closest Sunni arab Alli, has actually now

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Speaker 1: launched some of their own offensive military capabilities at Iran

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Speaker 1: just across the Persian Gulf, just over the past twenty

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Speaker 1: four to thirty six hours. So so the whole region

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Speaker 1: is really spiraling. The European powers are kind of sort

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Speaker 1: of starting to get in line, kind of sort of

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Speaker 1: a cure Starmer of the UK, who was a blithering idiot.

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Speaker 1: He's at least said that the United States can use

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Speaker 1: joint US UK military bases. Indeed, they can actually use

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Speaker 1: some outright solo UK military basis or purposes of offensive

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Speaker 1: military operations there. Germany, the Chancellor of Germany has actually

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Speaker 1: been probably about as as as solid as you can

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Speaker 1: possibly hope there for one of the major European powers.

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Speaker 1: So I suppose that's good as well. We'll get to

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Speaker 1: this with John you a little bit in the show.

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Speaker 1: But here on the domestic front, no other thing they

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Speaker 1: were closely trying on the show is the strong possibility

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Speaker 1: of these war powers resolutions being introduced in the US

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Speaker 1: Congress center. Tim Kaine of Virginia is the lead proponent

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Speaker 1: of this in the Senate. Similarly, there are Democrats pushing

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Speaker 1: it in the House.

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Speaker 2: There.

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Speaker 1: I as explained this, I show our mentor the strong,

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Speaker 1: strong opinion for many, many years now that these war

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Speaker 1: powers resolutions are unconstitutional as infringements on the commander in

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Speaker 1: chief Article two core executive power. Congress has plenty, plenty

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Speaker 1: of options when it comes to trying to reign in

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Speaker 1: a president's war making capabilities. But congress number one tool here,

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Speaker 1: as is the number one tool everywhere everywhere, is the

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Speaker 1: power of the purse. That is the sine qua non

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Speaker 1: that is the core, indispensable, singular power of the Congress.

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Speaker 1: It's not any different in this case in war making,

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Speaker 1: frankly than in anything else. So we'll see how that transpires.

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Speaker 1: Gamble against a little bit loit more with John Newley

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Speaker 1: on the show. Up for now, the joint Americans really

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Speaker 1: campaign against the Ibrani Rerginia continues to go and continues

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Speaker 1: to go very very well. Well, folks, stay with us

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Speaker 1: through a very short commercial break. On the other side,

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Speaker 1: Mike Durant of the husbands who joined us, a break

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Speaker 1: down the geopolitics even further.

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Speaker 2: Stay with us. Mike Durantz coming up next. Welcome back.

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Speaker 1: So the first of our two great grests for you today,

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Speaker 1: that is Mike Durant. So, Mike Durant is the Senior

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Speaker 1: Fellow and Director for the Center for Peace and Security

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Speaker 1: to the Middle East at the Hudson Institute and all

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Speaker 1: around great thinker on all things Iran, and he is

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Speaker 1: about the best person to bring on to discuss all

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Speaker 1: that is happening. So, Mike, what a what a past

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Speaker 1: few days it has been. I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people are thinking, Man, I didn't know if I'd be

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Speaker 1: alive to see this day. Frankly, the end of the

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Speaker 1: thirty seven years of tyranny when it comes to kame

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Speaker 1: Nie in Iran. So before we get into any further detail,

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Speaker 1: can you just give us some high level assessments as

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Speaker 1: to the staggering operational success of the past few days

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Speaker 1: and what you see from a military operation and strategy

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Speaker 1: standpoint at this time.

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Speaker 7: So from a military and operational strategy point of view,

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Speaker 7: has been exactly what you said, Josh, a staggering success.

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Speaker 7: And before I go any further, let me say thanks

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Speaker 7: for having me on. It's great to be here with you.

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Speaker 7: It's been a staggering success. But I would I would

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Speaker 7: be a little bit cautious about about assuming total victory

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Speaker 7: as a result of this. I mean, we need to

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Speaker 7: go into any conflict like this in the Middle East.

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Speaker 4: With a little bit of humility.

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Speaker 7: We defeated the Taliban in every engagement military engagement we

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Speaker 7: had with it, and it's still there. How MAAS has

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Speaker 7: been destroyed as a as a serious military military unit,

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Speaker 7: but it's still controlling the population of Gaza. His BLA

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Speaker 7: has been hollowed out, and it's it's still the dominant

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Speaker 7: political player in Lebanon. The strategy of the Iranians is

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Speaker 7: simply to survive. They know that they are the weaker

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Speaker 7: party militarily. They're in very, very shape, but they have

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Speaker 7: a strategy for survival. And I think my message right

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Speaker 7: now is yes, everything is going wonderfully. The Israeli American

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Speaker 7: partnership is at an all time high. It has never

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Speaker 7: been this close, never been this integrated. All of this

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Speaker 7: is fantastic. Iran is going to come out of this

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Speaker 7: weakened considerably. But we shouldn't assume that because of this

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Speaker 7: great operational success, we're going to have political success.

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Speaker 1: So what is what is victory? What is victory defined?

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Speaker 1: As Mi Mike I was speculating in my opening monologue here,

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Speaker 1: I couldn't agree with you more that this is the

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Speaker 1: apex of US is relations. Frankly, probably in the entire

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Speaker 1: modern history of the State of Israel. It's only been

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Speaker 1: around since ninety forty eight. I mean, it's never been

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Speaker 1: closer than this. Anecdotally, I've heard from folks in the

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Speaker 1: region that the two militaries are essentially offering as one

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Speaker 1: combined unit. It's really never been this close. But it

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Speaker 1: seems to me that there is at least a possibility.

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Speaker 1: I would love your take on this further to become

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Speaker 1: a divergence and interests. This could happen in two three weeks.

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Speaker 1: For now, they the US and Israel are on the

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Speaker 1: exact same page there, But it depends how it depends

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Speaker 1: how you define the end goal net to Yahu seemingly

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Speaker 1: is is talking the language of regime change. You have

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Speaker 1: some folks here in administration and domestically who are talking

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Speaker 1: using that language, some who are not there. So is

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Speaker 1: there is there a possibility of a divergence down the road.

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Speaker 1: And if there's a possibility of that, I suppose what

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Speaker 1: could we do to try to forestall that? Because these

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Speaker 1: two allies are working so nicely together there, you don't

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Speaker 1: want there to become a fork in the road.

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Speaker 7: Perhaps I don't think there will be a fork in

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Speaker 7: the road, but for a very simple reason, and that

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Speaker 7: is that in the end, it's going to be Donald

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Speaker 7: Trump who decides what the war aims are and the

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Speaker 7: Israelis are the junior partners in the in the alliance,

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Speaker 7: and the Israelis will do whatever Donald Trump says that

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Speaker 7: they should do.

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Speaker 4: They may not love it, but they but they'll do it.

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Speaker 7: And they know that when this, however this ends, Iran

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Speaker 7: is going to be severely weakened. It may not be

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Speaker 7: the end of the Iranian problem for them, but it

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Speaker 7: will move to a new stage and Israel will be

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Speaker 7: a lot more secure. What we don't know is how

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Speaker 7: Donald Trump is going to define victory. He's enumerated in

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Speaker 7: his various statements four different goals, one of which is

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Speaker 7: the end of the Iranian nuclear program, the second is

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Speaker 7: the curtailment of the missiles program, the third is the

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Speaker 7: ending of support for the proxies around the region, and

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Speaker 7: the fourth is the freedom of.

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Speaker 4: The Iranian people.

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Speaker 7: I take it all together that it could could be

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Speaker 7: seen as a call for regime change, and in some

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Speaker 7: of his statements it seems like he's calling for regime change,

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Speaker 7: but we know that he doesn't want to occupy the country.

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Speaker 4: We know that he doesn't want to George W.

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Speaker 7: Bush style invasion and try to remold the politics of Iran.

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Speaker 7: Is at some point he's going to want to negotiate

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Speaker 7: with the with the remnant of the regime. So he's

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Speaker 7: really trying to do regime transformation through air power. The

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Speaker 7: only example we have of that is Melosovich and Yugoslavia.

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Speaker 7: It's not impossible these initial steps, they've taken out the

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Speaker 7: top levels of the of the leadership, So anybody who's

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Speaker 7: in power right now in Iran has to be somewhat chasened.

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Speaker 7: But it remains to be seen what they're going to

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Speaker 7: offer him to end the war and what he's gonna

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Speaker 7: and what he's going to accept.

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Speaker 1: You follow, Mike Duranon x at duranimated. Mike, Let's talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about not just the US Israel, but

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Speaker 1: the other Arab countries in the region, including the GCC.

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Speaker 1: Iron has seemingly lash shout at all of them. And

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Speaker 1: the best analogy that I can think of is that

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Speaker 1: when an animal has been shot and it is lethally wounded,

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Speaker 1: it lashes out before before fading into its mortal coil

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Speaker 1: and perishing from this realm. What is Iran doing and

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Speaker 1: and who is who is actually in charge? I mean,

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Speaker 1: just this morning Israel took out essentially the conclave to

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Speaker 1: elect the new Supreme Leader.

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Speaker 2: They're all gone.

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Speaker 1: They simula are just firing indiscriminately all across the region,

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Speaker 1: including at some nominal allies or quasi allies light like Katart.

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Speaker 1: I can't quite figure out exactly what they're doing. What

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Speaker 1: are they trying to accomplish at this point.

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Speaker 7: So this is it's actually quite a rational strategy that

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Speaker 7: they're that they're engaged in. They they recognize what you

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Speaker 7: and I were just talking about a minute ago, that

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Speaker 7: in the end it's going to be Donald Trump who

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Speaker 7: decides what happens, and they are trying to put as

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Speaker 7: much pressure on him to change his calculus. Essentially, that's

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Speaker 7: through three or four different means. One is political. They

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Speaker 7: know it's not popular at home the war and so

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Speaker 7: they want to up the political cost to him.

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Speaker 4: Another is economic.

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Speaker 7: They want the price of oil to go as high

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Speaker 7: as an as it can. The third is diplomatic, they

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Speaker 7: want all of the allies to put pressure on him to.

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Speaker 4: In the war.

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Speaker 7: And fourth it's military. They and the fourth is in

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Speaker 7: some ways the most important. They have larger stocks stockpiles

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Speaker 7: of ballistic missiles. Then we have stockpiles of interceptors. So

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Speaker 7: they want to force us or the American led alliance

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Speaker 7: to burn through as many interceptors as possible. They know

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Speaker 7: the algorithm of the Aran missile defense systems. If an

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Speaker 7: Iranian missile is headed for a is headed for a

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Speaker 7: densely populated civilian area, there's a triage that will take

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Speaker 7: place within the defense system and it will send three

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Speaker 7: or four interceptors to get that one missile. This is

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Speaker 7: a ratio that the Iranians like. They want us to

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Speaker 7: burn through interceptors to get to a point where we

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Speaker 7: feel pressure to say, Okay, let's bring this, let's bring

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Speaker 7: this to a close.

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Speaker 2: It makes sense in that perspective.

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Speaker 1: I hadn't really thought of it, honestly, Mike, from that perspective,

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Speaker 1: but that that actually makes a lot of sense there. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, as I said though in the movie, was

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Speaker 1: it dodgeball? I believe, you know, it's a bold strategy condom.

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Speaker 1: We'll see if it works out for them. That's that's

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Speaker 1: that's that's that's kind of how I feel. So you know,

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Speaker 1: you know, Mike, just just about just about a minute

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Speaker 1: left here before we have to go to a break

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Speaker 1: and fortune. But before I let you go, let's try

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Speaker 1: to put on our prediction hats here. Uh, what is

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Speaker 1: the leadership slash who is leading Aroan one year from now?

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Speaker 2: Let's make let's mek, let's try make it a prediction.

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Speaker 7: I actually believe the IRGC will still be in power

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Speaker 7: and around a year from now, that's the most likely scenario.

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Speaker 7: I mean, we have to think in terms of scenarios,

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Speaker 7: and I think we have to think in terms of phases.

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Speaker 7: But the IRGC is so deeply embedded in the in

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Speaker 7: the economy and society and all of the institutions of

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Speaker 7: Iran that uprooting it, rooting it out is a very

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Speaker 7: very difficult prospect if we're if we don't go in

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Speaker 7: on the ground, and that's what they're aiming for. I mean,

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Speaker 7: for them, success in the war is survival, and I

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Speaker 7: think they have a pretty good chance of surviving. They

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Speaker 7: may it may be a very chastened and much more

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Speaker 7: pragmatic I urgency, but I think that who will still

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Speaker 7: be in power? If not them, then I think we're

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Speaker 7: going to be in a state of civil war, like

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Speaker 7: the like, like Syria after twenty eleven, you'll have a

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Speaker 7: regime remnant and you'll have militias around the region, around

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Speaker 7: the around the around the country.

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Speaker 4: Those to me are the two most likely scenarios.

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Speaker 1: Very hard to disagree with that I've actually had the

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Speaker 1: civil war thought myself of the past few days. I

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Speaker 1: hope that I'm wrong, because that sounds like a like

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Speaker 1: a total mess. Frankly, I'm not sure any of these

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Speaker 1: are clean options. What I do know is that the

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Speaker 1: world is a remarkably better place with Ali Kameni out

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Speaker 1: of the picture, that is for sure. Folks follow Mike

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Speaker 1: Dranon x at Dry made it. He's a Senior Fellow

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Speaker 1: and director of the Center for Peace and Security in

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00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 1: the Middle East, the Hudson Institute. All around good guy,

434
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,679
Speaker 1: all around Iran expert, Mike we appreciated, saw him by

435
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:06,760
Speaker 1: Thanks much, my friends, folks. Stay with us the way

436
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 1: A short commercial break on on the other side, John

437
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 1: U joins us to break down the constitutional arguments.

438
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 2: To stay with us. We'll be right back with John Yu.

439
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 2: Welcome back.

440
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:20,760
Speaker 1: So for two days in a row now we've been

441
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 1: talking not just about the geopolitical aspects of this ongoing

442
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 1: joint American Israeli operation against Rome, but also the American

443
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 1: constitutional aspects of it as well, and really no em

444
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 1: better to bring on to talk about it then, John You.

445
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,680
Speaker 1: Otherwise known as the Great John U, as I call

446
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 1: him so. John U is the Emmanuel S. Heller Professor

447
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 1: of Law at UC Berkeley School of Law. He is

448
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,880
Speaker 1: also the Distinguished Visiting Scholar and his Senior Research Fellow

449
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 1: at the Civitas Institutes at the University of Texas Austin,

450
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,679
Speaker 1: and non resident Senior Fellow at AEI in Washington. Johnafe

451
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 1: have other titles. I apologize because because it could take

452
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:55,479
Speaker 1: us the whole show here.

453
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 8: I born is Josh Hammer Lackey and.

454
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 1: Guest, Yeah, yes, yes, Well, it's great to see you,

455
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,480
Speaker 1: my friends, and I want to bring you on above

456
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 1: all for your expertise when it comes to the constitutional

457
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 1: war powers debates. It's been my long standing view that

458
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,919
Speaker 1: the overwhelming majority of people John, including elected officials frankly

459
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 1: and some of both parties actually Republicans, are not pert

460
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 1: on that.

461
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:18,479
Speaker 2: Very far from it.

462
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 1: There are a lot of folks, in my view who

463
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 1: totally misunderstand how the Constitution allocates foreign affairs and specifically

464
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 1: the war making functions when it comes to Article one

465
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,919
Speaker 1: the Congress an Article two of the executive branch. So

466
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,160
Speaker 1: can you kind of just give us a constitutional separation

467
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 1: of powers when it comes to war powers for dummies,

468
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: if you.

469
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:44,640
Speaker 8: Will, Josh. First, we should realize that historical practice has

470
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 8: never followed this, I think quaint idea. Though Congress declares

471
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 8: war first, and we have some grand debate on the

472
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 8: floor of Congress, and then the president carries out the

473
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 8: war policy that Congress sets. George Washington from the very

474
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 8: beginning fought the Indians on the western frontier without congressional authorization.

475
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 8: Thomas Jefferson sent the Navy off to fight the Barbary pirates,

476
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 8: who are really sultans and princes within the Ottoman Empire

477
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 8: without any kind of congressional approval. We've only declared war

478
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:20,120
Speaker 8: five times eighteen twelve, eighteen forty eight, eighteen ninety eight,

479
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 8: and the two World Wars presidents have used force abroad

480
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,479
Speaker 8: more than one hundred and fifty times. So there's no claim,

481
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 8: I think plausible claim that, oh, presidents and Congresses together

482
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 8: have decided Congress always declares war first and the presidents

483
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 8: go second. In fact, usually it's the other way around.

484
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 8: Presidents have used the forces made available by Congress, and

485
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,439
Speaker 8: usually Congress withhold funds and withhold the military until it

486
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 8: agreed with the president, and then the president would go first.

487
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:52,920
Speaker 8: And Congress has plenty.

488
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 4: Of checks.

489
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 8: With which it can stop a president, including I think

490
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 8: the most important one cutting off funding, that where the

491
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 8: Constitution really gives the Congress a real veto over presidential

492
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 8: military operations, and then ultimately impeachment. The founders thought that

493
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,959
Speaker 8: if presidents got out of control and the Congress has disagreed,

494
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 8: they could always remove president. So in reality, I think

495
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 8: what you have and this goes to the I think

496
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 8: the assumption of your point, Josh, is that the Constitution

497
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 8: in foreign affairs and national security doesn't work the same

498
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 8: way it does passing environmental laws or the social security laws,

499
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 8: where Congress has a long debate and then you have

500
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 8: a vote and president carries out. Instead, the president develops

501
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 8: foreign affairs, the president under the Constitution is given the

502
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 8: duty to protect the country, and then Congress plays the

503
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 8: role that comes second.

504
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: John, you is, among other things, the anual s held

505
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: professor of Law at UC Berkeley School of Law. So, John,

506
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 1: on yesterday's show, we were doing a little bit of

507
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 1: a constitutional deep dive of explaining the difference between the

508
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: declare war language and our one section eight and the

509
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: engage in war language of.

510
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 2: Article one section ten.

511
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 1: These are two sections of the Constitution that are just

512
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 1: a couple of dozen words apart from each other. They're

513
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: very close together, and the obvious inference is that the framers,

514
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 1: in choosing to use different verbs for these different functions,

515
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: chose to convey different concepts. So what is the basic

516
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 1: response to the folks that say, declare war means that

517
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,719
Speaker 1: we are declaring that we are engaging in war? What

518
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: does the actual term declare war mean in the original meaning.

519
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 1: Accord into your research and all that.

520
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:38,719
Speaker 8: Yeah, I like to think I was the first one

521
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,360
Speaker 8: who actually noticed the difference between the text of Article one,

522
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 8: section ten, which talks about states going to war, and

523
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 8: then Article one, section eight, which is Congress's declare war clause.

524
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 8: If you go back and look at the history at

525
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 8: the time of the founding, we got the idea of

526
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 8: declaring war. The language itself is copied from the British Constitution,

527
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 8: opied from Blackstone. If you look at the one hundred

528
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 8: years before the founding, Britain only declared war once before

529
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 8: it started hostilities. Usually declarations came a year or two

530
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,679
Speaker 8: years after fighting started. In fact, Josh, you know what

531
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 8: the most famous and important declaration of war by the

532
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 8: United States is. It's the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration

533
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 8: of Independence is a declaration of war in the eighteenth century.

534
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 8: You know what. It comes over a year after Lexington

535
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 8: and conquered. It was a declaration, was a way to

536
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 8: formalize the legal relationship between two countries at war, but

537
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 8: had nothing to do with how does the president, how

538
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 8: does the Congress decide on war policy? Decide on whether

539
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 8: to launch hostilities. That's where Article one, section ten is

540
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 8: so clear. Article one, section ten says states cannot, in

541
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 8: the phrases as you said, engage in war. And then

542
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 8: it says unless Congress consents, unless Congress goods consent, right,

543
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,679
Speaker 8: totally different language than the declared war clause. And then

544
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 8: it even has an exception that's not even in the

545
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 8: declared war clause, but everyone says has to be there

546
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 8: when it says unless actually invaded, or write there are

547
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 8: circumstances that demand immediate action for the States, And so

548
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 8: there you have the exact wording to produce the system

549
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 8: that all these congressional critics right believe is in all

550
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 8: built into that little declared war clause phrase. To me,

551
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 8: it says the founders knew how to require congressional consent

552
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 8: before war. If they wanted to, they put that exact

553
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 8: system in place with regard to the states, But they

554
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 8: didn't when it came to the president. And I think

555
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 8: it's because they knew. The reason you have an executive

556
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 8: branch is so that presidents can act quickly and decisively

557
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 8: in response to immediate challenges and opportunities and attacks and threats,

558
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 8: and they knew that you couldn't wait on Congress to

559
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 8: make a decision.

560
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 4: First.

561
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: It's right out of Federal's papers Oleson and Hamilton in

562
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: Federal seventy Fantausy speaks of the need for secrecy and

563
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: dispatch and the unitary executive the commander in chief. There Again,

564
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,239
Speaker 1: for folks who actually do more of the reading there,

565
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: I think this actually ends up being a lot more intuitive,

566
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: frankly than kind of your cartoonish view of separation powers

567
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: might otherwise indicate, John, what is your views as to

568
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: how the let's call it the mainstream view, that the

569
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: normy view. Perhaps let's call it the notion that Congress

570
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 1: has to initially declare war in order to engage any hostilities.

571
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: How and when did that emerge and how did it

572
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: become so popular?

573
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 8: Think, so let's just call it something like the academic consensus,

574
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 8: which should immediately raise red flags in every America.

575
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 2: Right.

576
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 8: So, this really came up during the Vietnam War. It

577
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 8: really was an argument that law professors and critics of

578
00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 8: the Vietnam War started developing before then. In fact, you

579
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 8: would have Democrat and Republicans say, particularly in the nuclear age,

580
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 8: when you didn't have time for a declaration of war

581
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 8: if you thought right. For example, the Soviets were gassing

582
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 8: up nuclear arm missiles in Cuba, right, nobody said we

583
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 8: need a declaration of war before John F. Kennedy can

584
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 8: put up a blockade around Cuba, which is an active war.

585
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 8: Everyone no one thought that declared wark clause should be used.

586
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 8: It was only after Vietnam, I think, broke up the consensus.

587
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 8: Right polarized the country, led to all this rioting on

588
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 8: campus and opposition of the professors and the academia, academic

589
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 8: elite against right. I think the traditional way of making

590
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 8: war that this argument and really you know, took got

591
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 8: steam and it was interesting. It's an area where liberals

592
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 8: learned to love and embrace the original understanding. It is

593
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 8: such a rare moment. But because the practice of the

594
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 8: government from Washington on had been not to think of

595
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 8: the declared war clause this way, these liberal critics of

596
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 8: the Vietnam War, these liberal critics of the presidency, particularly Nixon,

597
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 8: they had to make the claim, oh, you have to

598
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 8: reject two hundred years of history. It's really because the

599
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 8: founders thought declarations of war had to come first. And again,

600
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 8: I think when I dug into the history much more carefully.

601
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 8: I think that historical is far more complicated, and you

602
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 8: don't see declarations of war coming anywhere close to playing

603
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 8: that kind of role.

604
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 1: So for the lawyers or the would be lawyers, those

605
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: who are saying in law school out there in the audience,

606
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: I stroll encourage you to check out John used two

607
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: thousand and two Law Review article at the University Chicago

608
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: Law Review, War and the Constitutional Text, where he elaborates

609
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: on this argument at great length. This argument also will

610
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: come back a little bit in Congress this week. It

611
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: seems looks like the Senate and ind or the House

612
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: are going to advance a war powers resolution under this

613
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: Vietnam War era statutes, which I think you and I

614
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 1: both things unconstitutional. John, And hopefully these arguments are defeated.

615
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: And frankly, whether or not they're defeated, they're not going

616
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 1: to become a presidential veto. So it's kind of a

617
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: moo point one way or the other. But in any events,

618
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: the great John U folks. He's the professor of law

619
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: at UC Berkeley School of Law, among many other titles. John,

620
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: So it's great to see my friend thanks to joining

621
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: the program.

622
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 8: Thanks Jessina. Like I said, ad fan of the Josh

623
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 8: Hammer Show, onto my qualities.

624
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: Straight from the horses out there, you have the great

625
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: John new folks, stay with us. A short commercial break,

626
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: closing thoughts on the other side, welcome back. So a

627
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: lot to impact from today's show. Mike Duran joining us, John,

628
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: you joining us. The operation overseas is continuing. The story

629
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: is not going anywhere. We are going to continue to

630
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: follow it on a day in, day out basis for

631
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: as long as it takes. It is, among other things,

632
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 1: the greatest gamble of Donald Trump's political lifetime. That is

633
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: an underdiscussed element of this store. It's a huge gamble.

634
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: The early polling is very mixed. It is largely along

635
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: partisan lines, as these operations tend to be there. But

636
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: it is a risky operation is certainly risky in a

637
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: mid term election year like this one, and Democrats are

638
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: trying to seize on that. A lot of them are

639
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: saying borderline frivolous things. A lot of them were just

640
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: saying patentally insane things. In the latter camp, certainly is

641
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: the new Communist Red Green Alliance. Mayor of New York

642
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 1: City Zoram Mamdani who had this gym. Let's go ahead

643
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: and listen to Zora Mamdani.

644
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 5: Today's military strikes by the United States and Israel mark

645
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 5: a catastrophic escalation in an illegal, active war of aggression,

646
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 5: bombing cities, killing civilians, opening up a new theater of war.

647
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 2: Americans do not want this.

648
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 5: Americans do not want another war in pursuit of regime change.

649
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 2: We want an answer to the affordability crisis.

650
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 5: We want peace now. I may be a young mayor,

651
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 5: but I am old enough to remember the devastating consequences

652
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 5: of our country's pursuit of regime change in this same

653
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 5: region not that many years ago.

654
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: Zorim Mamdanni speaking there on Foss business mo Zoromondanni is

655
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: upset because he lost his friends.

656
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 2: That's basically what this comes down to.

657
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: We're being a little tongue in cheek, of course, but

658
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: this is a guy who spoke at an Iranian regime

659
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 1: connected mosque on the first day of Ramadan. That came

660
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 1: out the folks at Memory Middle East Media Research Intitute,

661
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: the good folks in Memory were able to find that clip.

662
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 2: We play a for you on the show.

663
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: Actually, the time of Mandonni speaking in that Ironni regime

664
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 1: connected mosque.

665
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 2: So just like some of the useful idiots.

666
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 1: On the rights people like the exorable Kurt Mills, the

667
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 1: editor of the publication that laughably calls itself the American

668
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: Conservative even even though it is neither American nor Conservative.

669
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: Just like folks like Kurt Mills, Zimandanni is really just

670
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: upset because frankly they lost some friends. They lost friends

671
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: there in the the Iyatola conclave that Israel blew up.

672
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,280
Speaker 1: There shed a tear if you will, for Zora Memdanni.

673
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 1: Look all kidding aside. This campaign is going to go

674
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: on and again we look forward to covering it to

675
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 1: but for now to go take us back to a

676
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: tour conversation with Mike Duran. Thus far has really been

677
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: nothing but smashing success, other, of course, than the extraordinally

678
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:08,879
Speaker 1: important caveat that there have now been Americans who have died.

679
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 1: That the count last I checked, according to Senkam is six.

680
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: We send our sincere genuine condolences or our sincere genuine

681
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:22,359
Speaker 1: prayers to the families of those brave, brave warriors who

682
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: laid it all down. Donald Trump saying that the warning

683
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: that was going to happen there, and he hoped that

684
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,760
Speaker 1: these families could at least at least take some solace

685
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 1: in knowing that their loved ones died for a noble cause. Well,

686
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 1: speaking of noble causes, Today is a holiday. Today is

687
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: a holiday on the Jewish calendar. It is the fourteenth

688
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 1: of Adar on the Jewish calendar, which every year is

689
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 1: the the holiday of Purim. Purham is one of my

690
00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 1: personal favorite holidays on the Jewish calendar. It is a

691
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: story that has a strong thematic overlamp with the events

692
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 1: that we have seen over the past few days.

693
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 2: Because it is a story about the Book of Esther.

694
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 1: So if you're not super familiar with the Book of Esther,

695
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,399
Speaker 1: probably time to dust off the old Bible and open

696
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: it up. It's very readable, it's very short, it won't

697
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 1: take you very long. This is a story about the

698
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: Jews in exile in ancient Persia. So the destruction of

699
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: the First Temple has happened already from Nebukonezer and the

700
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 1: Babylonians and the Jews have not gone back to reconstitute Jerusalem,

701
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: thanks to the beneficence of the King Cyrus. Under prophets

702
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: like Ezra None none, that has happened yet, so they're

703
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: currently living in exile there in Persia, and the story

704
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 1: is one where there is an evil viceroy named Haman

705
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 1: who attains very lofty power. He essentially tapped to be

706
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:59,959
Speaker 1: the second in command to the easily influenced, highly impressionable,

707
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: vacillating king of Sorts, who the biblical text vers to

708
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: as Akhaz Verrush. Most historians say that Aqua Verrush in

709
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: real life was also known as the character or the

710
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: leader of Xerxes, so those of you history buffs likely

711
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 1: are somewhat familiar, least with Zerxes, that is Akaz Verrush,

712
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 1: the king of Persia. Here in the Book of Esther,

713
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 1: the basic story is that Haman is evil and he

714
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 1: is able to successfully procure an edict of annihilation to

715
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: murder the Jews in all of Persia. He is essentially

716
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:36,320
Speaker 1: deeply pettily. He's petty upset that Mordechai, this Jew, refuses

717
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 1: to prost himself to bow before Haman's Therefore, he says

718
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: that the Jews will be annihilated him And of course

719
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 1: the story has a very happy ending because Mordechai, working

720
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 1: with his cousin and an adopted daughter, the heroine, the

721
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: namesake of the story, Esther is able to as to

722
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 1: attaine the queen ship. She becomes the Queen of the

723
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 1: Kingdom to akas Verrush and successfully petitions.

724
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 2: To reverse the decree.

725
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: And ultimately Haman is hoist on his own pot, and

726
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 1: he is hung from the gallows and murdered which he

727
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: himself had set up for Mordecai. Hammen and all his

728
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: Suddens end up being dead. There is a lot to

729
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: impact from the story. The very first thing to say,

730
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,359
Speaker 1: kind of just tying it into current events, is it's

731
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: just extraordinarily symbolic, is it not that this story about

732
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,720
Speaker 1: salvation in ancient Persia from the annihilation of the Jews

733
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: is happening now in real time, essentially concurrence with this

734
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: joint American Israeli military operation against modern Persia which is

735
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 1: led by the Islamist theocrats there in Iran. In fact,

736
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 1: this past Sabbath, this past Jewish Shabbab, this past Saturday,

737
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 1: was known, among other things, as Shabbat. Shabbat is a

738
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: whore is a w horror being the Hebrew word meaning remembrance.

739
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 1: Because every year, on this particular Sabbath, on the Shabban.

740
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 1: We read three verses from the end towards the end

741
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 1: of the Book of Deuteronomy, the command us to remember Amalik,

742
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: Amalik being the nation that sought to annihilate the Israelites

743
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 1: when they were fleeing Egypt. Back in the Book of

744
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,839
Speaker 1: exis there and our tradition teaches us that Hamad, who

745
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 1: so thought to kill the Jews, is actually a direct

746
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: descendant of Amalike. There So, the symbolism here of all

747
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 1: this happening with this greater context where you are trying

748
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 1: to remember Amalike, the spiritual predecessor of the Persians, who

749
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 1: sought to annihilate the Jews, and all that happening there

750
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: is really just simply extraordinary, and program is a very

751
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 1: very festive occasion there. There's actually this famous line in

752
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: the Talmud. The Talmud, by the way, has been so

753
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,280
Speaker 1: besmirched and bastardized by anti Semites.

754
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 2: They say it says this.

755
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 1: The Talmud is just a Jewish holy text. We view

756
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 1: it as the convocation of the oral law. It's no

757
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 1: different than the Bible, than the New Testament. It is

758
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 1: a holy text for Jews, okay, And the Talmud famously says,

759
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 1: and you could take this however you want. That on

760
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:52,919
Speaker 1: prom you're supposed to be so merry, so festive social

761
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: laboratory that you can actually not tell the difference between

762
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: Mordechai the hero and Hamam the villain.

763
00:39:58,200 --> 00:39:58,399
Speaker 5: There.

764
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,280
Speaker 1: So you know, don't take that literally, don't get so inebriated,

765
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,359
Speaker 1: but you understand the point. There are two verses from

766
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: the Book of Ester that I want to just briefly

767
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 1: talk about. One is that there is a verse from

768
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: chapter three, from chapter three, verse eight of the Book

769
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: of esther To me, this is kind of just the

770
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: quintessential explanation of any Semitism going back thousands of years.

771
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: So Haman here when he decides to try to get

772
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: this edict of annihilation, says to the king azeverus Ak Xerxes.

773
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: He says, quote, there is a certain people scattered and

774
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 1: separate among the peoples throughout all the provinces of your kingdom,

775
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: and their laws differ from those of every people, and

776
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,359
Speaker 1: they do not keep the king's laws. To me, this

777
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: is the explanation of any Semitism since time immemorial. The

778
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 1: notion of homogeneity of globalism. Trying to consume or trying

779
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 1: to amalgamize into one greater blob. There the Jews are

780
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 1: always the ones who refuse to bend the knee. They

781
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: stick to their ways. There they are as the Bible describes,

782
00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: a stiff necked people. They keep to their ways, they

783
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 1: keep their customs, that keep to their way of life.

784
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 1: They are the ultimate particularist defiance to the universalism that

785
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: is the temptation of tyrants going back to time Memorial.

786
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 1: That's one powerful lesson. Another brief verse that I think

787
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 1: is worth highlighting is my personal favorite verse of the

788
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: entire book. Esther, chapter four, verse fourteen. Mordecai trying to

789
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: talk up Esther to put in this request to savor

790
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: people before the king, and Mordecai says to Esther, quote,

791
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 1: if you remain silent at this time, relief and rescue

792
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 1: will arise for the Jews from elsewhere, and you and

793
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 1: your father's household will perish. And who knows whether a

794
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 1: time like this you will attain the kingdom. Basically, who

795
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: knows whether you were born for a time like this.

796
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 1: As is popularly translated, powerful stuff. And the lesson is,

797
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 1: if you are any position of power, you need to

798
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 1: use it. The Book of Esther is filled with lessons

799
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 1: in politics. Your Mazzoni, my former colleague, wrote an amazing

800
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 1: book on this some years ago called God and Politics

801
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: and Esther. I recently read it in full for the

802
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 1: first time. It is extraordinary. I encourage you to read it. There,

803
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 1: the politics of coalition building, tics of trying to secure results,

804
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 1: it's all in there in this remarkable book. Frankly, my

805
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 1: wife and I love this book so much so we

806
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: actually named our daughter Esther. She is our first and

807
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 1: oldest child there and God William, we too hope that

808
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: per Esther chapter four, verse fourteen, that she will have

809
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: been born for a time like this. Well again, folks,

810
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 1: to my fellow Jews, which you knew a porum samaiak,

811
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: we are continuing to follow the events in the Middle

812
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: East there. I hope you have a great rest of

813
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 1: the evening. We'll be right back with more.

814
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 2: Josh Hammershaw