1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Welcome to Thanking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer, 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: and I'm glad you're here. In this special series, we're 3 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: stepping back into one of the most pivotal times in 4 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: Christian history, the German Reformation. This was a time when 5 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: the Gospel was being rediscovered, the Church was being challenged, 6 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: and the course of Western civilization was being reshaped with 7 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: ripples that still reach into our lives today. And to 8 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: guide us through this journey, I'm joined by a true expert, 9 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: someone who doesn't just know the Reformation from books, but 10 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: from the cobblestone streets and cathedral halls where it actually happened, 11 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: Doctor Greg Quiggle. Greg is a Reformation historian and the 12 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: owner and operator of Kotelis Travel, a company that runs 13 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: what they call tours for ten, intimate travel experiences designed 14 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: for people who want something deeper than a typical tour. 15 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: They offer a three to one guest to guide ratio, 16 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: and these trips give you consistent access to guides who've 17 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: been on location multiple times, who know not only the history, 18 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: but also where to find the best able strudal and 19 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: other German delicacies along the way. You can learn more 20 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: about Greg and Kotellus at kotellistravelservice dot com. And if 21 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: this series piques your interest, Greg actually has a German 22 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: Reformation trip coming up this May, and last I heard, 23 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: there are still a few seats available. In this series, 24 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: Greg is going to help us explore the people, places, 25 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,479 Speaker 1: and theological stakes of the Reformation as well as helping 26 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: us understand why it still matters for Christians today. So 27 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: let's get started. Hey, everybody, welcome back to this episode 28 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 1: of Thinking Christian on Doctor James Spencer and I'm joined 29 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: by doctor Greg Quiggle. We're continuing our discussion about the Reformation, 30 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: the German Reformation specifically, and today what we're going to 31 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: talk through, or begin talking through, is what does it 32 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: look like for Protestantism under Luther. So the Reformation, the 33 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,759 Speaker 1: attempt to reform the Catholic Church has largely failed. There's 34 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: going to now be a division between Luther's camp, let's 35 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: call it just for the moment, and the Catholic side. 36 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: And so that has implications for what Protestantism is actually 37 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: going to look like. And now we enter this phase 38 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: of negotiating what stays, what goes, what Protestantism really needs 39 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: to look like and how that's going to function. So 40 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: those are those are some of the complexities that we're 41 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: going to dive into today. So Greg, welcome back to 42 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:11,359 Speaker 1: the program. Always great to have you here. 43 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 2: Great to be here, James. 44 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: So let's just jump in. I mean, I think maybe 45 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: the first thing that I was a little confused about 46 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 1: on the last trip, and I think I got clarified 47 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:25,519 Speaker 1: was the relationship between church and state that we talked 48 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: about in previous episodes. That is providing some stability and 49 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: some support for Catholic churches, monasteries, those kind of things. 50 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: How does that change when Luther is sort of cracked 51 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: off from the Catholic Church, but it's still living in Wittenberg, 52 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: has the same house where he stayed, you know, like 53 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: a lot of things stay the same for Luther, but 54 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: there had to be some economic and political changes, right, Yes, yes. 55 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 2: And no, Okay, most crowds and are still going to 56 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 2: work in the context of what we generally call Christendom, 57 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 2: and that is this notion that church and state are distinct, 58 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 2: but they're not separate. So the easiest way that I 59 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 2: know to illustrate this is to read the Old Testament. Okay, 60 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 2: what do you have How are the children of Israel led? 61 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 2: The nation of Israel has a king and it. 62 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: Has a high priest. 63 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 2: They have distinct functions, but they're functioning under a single 64 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 2: religious system, same God. They have distinct roles, but they 65 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 2: are certainly complementary. They're working together. So that model is 66 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 2: pulled across. So you know, the old model was the 67 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 2: pope and the emperor. Yeah, okay, so now now it's 68 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 2: kind of okay. There is there is no pope. How 69 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 2: is that going to work? And we don't have a 70 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 2: singular emperor. So really the relationship is what's the relationship 71 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 2: between in the case of Luther, the prince, the local 72 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 2: prince elector, or the emperor in the case of somebody 73 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: like Calvin, the city council, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 74 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 2: And one of the fundamental differences is going to be 75 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 2: that for Protestants, the central document is going to be 76 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 2: the Bible alone. So the Bible is going to be 77 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 2: the defining document. And so, you know, it's not in Germany, 78 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 2: but this kind of makes it work. In Zurich, in Switzerland, 79 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 2: there's a statue of a guy named Zwingley who's a 80 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 2: contemporary of Martin Luther says, giant statue right on the river, 81 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 2: you know, bing bing bing here it is has a 82 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 2: sword in one hand and a Bible in the other. 83 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 2: And so the Bible grounds civil authority. So this is 84 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 2: that Protestant notion of the Bible alone. The Bible is 85 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 2: the grounds. Both the church and the state derive their 86 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 2: authority from the text alone, and they function within the 87 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 2: categories that the text mandates. Now, how that's going to 88 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 2: work out? Who is responsible for what? So, for example, 89 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 2: in Luther's sort of framework, the state functions with a 90 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: higher degree of autonomy slash authority than in Calvin's Geneva 91 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 2: and in Zwingley's contexts the state has more authority over 92 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 2: the church than it does in Luther's. So, for example, 93 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 2: when there's a debate about what kind of form of 94 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 2: baptism they're going to use in Zurich, the city council 95 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 2: decides that, well that Luther, you know, that's none No, 96 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 2: I don't think so. 97 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. 98 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 2: So, but you still have the basic model here. And 99 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 2: the basic model is one people, one religion, two authorities, 100 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 2: a religious authority and a political civic authority. They are 101 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 2: functioning in a synthesis under the authority of the Scripture, 102 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 2: and they are forming the Kingdom of Christ on earth 103 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 2: in that sense. 104 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: Okay, that's helpful. I mean it's sort of what it 105 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: makes me think of is federalism in our context, right, 106 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: Like we have you have a different states that have 107 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: relative autonomy, but then you also have the federal government 108 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: who makes broader rules, and the negotiation of those two 109 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: relationships are often difficult. So it's not exactly religion and state, 110 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: but it's two entities attempting to collaborate and coordinate to 111 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: get something done within a bigger body. 112 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 113 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: I guess that's what my head kind of goes to. 114 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 2: Yes. So the thing where this gets crazy for the 115 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 2: modern reader is the persecution, in fact, the execution of heretics. 116 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. 117 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 2: So, and this is you know, why is the church 118 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: putting a heretic to death? The church is not putting 119 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 2: the heretic to death, the state is. 120 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: Okay, the church is proclaiming them a heretic. 121 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 2: And then the state is putting them to death as 122 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 2: an act of self defense. 123 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: Would have been similar to what we would have seen 124 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: with Martin Luther had he not gotten safe passage to 125 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: the diet of arms and been sort of shuttled a 126 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: way to Vordburg. You have somebody official proceeding over that diet, 127 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: a representative from the pope, who decides not to debate Luther, 128 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: and then this forced requirement to recant. Those are basically 129 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: ultimatums recant or die correct. 130 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 2: So the idea here is who bears the sword. The 131 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 2: state bears the sword. So it is the obligation of 132 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 2: the state to support the church. So in order to 133 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 2: defend and support the Church, it is the state's obligation 134 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 2: to put to death a heretic. 135 00:08:54,160 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, that sort of concretizes the relationship. I think, yes, 136 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: It's got to get really hairy though, when we move 137 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 1: into Protestantism and we basically have competing conceptions of what 138 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: it means to be Protestant, or competing practices within Protestantism, 139 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: competing beliefs within Protestantism, because you've largely lost this broad 140 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: traditional heritage that comes through the Catholic Church, and unlike 141 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: us today, and you can tell me if I'm wrong 142 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: about this, you know, we have a sense I think, 143 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: you know, even casual Christians would have a sense of 144 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: faith alone Bible alone, you know, the different Reformation souls, 145 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: which we'll address in a later episode. But we have 146 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: the benefit of a tradition that stems at least from 147 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: the different confessions of the Protestant era. Correct at that 148 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,439 Speaker 1: point with Luther, there is no such bo. What has 149 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: to happen is all this has to be teased out 150 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: from the Catholic tradition, and so it becomes an exercise 151 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: in what do we keep what do we get rid of? 152 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:17,319 Speaker 2: Exactly? And yes, so this is why you get For example, 153 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 2: Protestants are actually putting to death other Protestants, which sounds 154 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 2: utterly bizarre, but this is exactly what is going to 155 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 2: happen in Zurich, where the forerunners of people we know 156 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 2: as Amish and Ana Baptists are actually being put to 157 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 2: death by another Protestant, Zwingli, and the city council because 158 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 2: of their view of Baptism. 159 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: But yes, so and so, just to Clarifyzwingley's got the 160 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: council's ear, or the council is on Zwingley's side there 161 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: understanding Zwingley to be the quote established Protestant. 162 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 2: Swingley goes to the city council and argues for a 163 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 2: particular understanding of baptism. So to the Ana Baptists, the 164 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 2: city council decides Zwingley is right there after the law, 165 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 2: and so they violate the law. And though so against 166 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 2: the waters of baptisms, you have sinned, So by the 167 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 2: waters of baptism you shall be condemned. And they drowned them. 168 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 2: So so you know, and and this is so you 169 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 2: can see, and it's going to get money. So this 170 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 2: is you know, what are we? Who? Who are we? 171 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 2: What do we take? 172 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: Yep? 173 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 2: That's the question you're asking. And what you've got going here, 174 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 2: and this is precisely why you don't have a single Protestantism. 175 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 2: You're going to get fundamentally different conceptions of what do 176 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 2: we do with fifteen hundred years of Christian practice? 177 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: Right? 178 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 2: Okay, so you know we've been doing this for fifteen 179 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 2: hundred years. Uh oh, now what And you're going to 180 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 2: get varieties of how much of this do we keep? 181 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 2: How much of this do we jettison? What do we 182 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 2: put in its place? And so you're going to get 183 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 2: everything from Luther, who is going to say keep as 184 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 2: much as you can yep, to Anabaptist i e. Mennonite, 185 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 2: Amish types who are going to say, get rid of 186 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 2: all of it. So do you do a reform And 187 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 2: by reform Luther means you go through and you remove 188 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 2: the things that are clearly in violation of scripture, but 189 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 2: you keep everything else, or do you do what the 190 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 2: Anabaptists say, And their argument is this whole thing went 191 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 2: off the rails with Constantine in three thirteen when church 192 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 2: and state got mixed. The entire enterprise is bad. To 193 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 2: quote the late great Michael Jackson, bad bad, bad, really bad. 194 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 2: You know, it's bad bad, woo oooh bad. He want 195 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 2: to Grammy for that. The lyrical genius there is stunning, 196 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 2: just absolutely stunning. And therefore we have to go back 197 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 2: before three thirteen find anything that's pure. So we're gonna 198 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 2: just throw it all out, open up our New Testament, 199 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 2: and only do what it says so you can see. 200 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 2: And the simple question that I used to tell students 201 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 2: that moody is if you've ever been to a Lutheran 202 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 2: church and a Mennonite church, which one. 203 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: Looks more Catholic. 204 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's not a hard question. Really why Because 205 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 2: Luther says you only change what you have to, and 206 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 2: the Anabaptists say, get rid of it all and then 207 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 2: open your New Testament and only put in what it 208 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 2: says to and so very different approaches were. 209 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: How prominent was this within Germany? Greg So, I understand 210 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: the distinctions in Switzerland oddly better than I understand the 211 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: distinctions in Germany. Like Zwingli and the Anabaptists are sort 212 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: of you know, theological legend right, like the what happened 213 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: there is kind of crazy, this this schism over Baptism. 214 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: I don't know as much about the tensions within Germany 215 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: because Luther would have been such a almost like pillar 216 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: of the reformation within Germany. Melankin follows. You know, you've 217 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: got a fairly strong tradition within that, those German reformers 218 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: who are probably going to stick relatively close to Luther. 219 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: So were there still factions of any significance within Germany? 220 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, there were. These people were called the fanatics. 221 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: And what. 222 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 2: Complicates this is within this kind of Anabaptist movement you 223 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 2: have a spectrum. So you have everything from people that 224 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 2: we would recognize as sort of reasonable people who are 225 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 2: trying to follow the Bible, to people that are apocalyptic 226 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 2: lunatics who are trying to say the Bible is no 227 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 2: longer relevant. We live in the age of the Spirit. 228 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 2: God is revealing himself to me directly. And so, for example, 229 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 2: in the German city of Munster, you have a group 230 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 2: of these Antabaptists who go in there and they take 231 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 2: the town over and they set up. You know, Jesus 232 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 2: is returning. Immediately, they begin to practice polygamy. The guide's 233 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 2: calling himself an Old Testament prophet. God is revealing all 234 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 2: this stuff to him, and you know it's adult baptism, 235 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 2: and on and on and on. And what happens is 236 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 2: a combined army of Catholics and Protestants go in there 237 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 2: slaughter everybody, and in fact they take the leaders of 238 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 2: this thing. They put their bodies in cages and hang 239 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 2: them from the cathedral. The cages are still there, James, 240 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 2: if you you look it up online Google Google, you 241 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 2: know Munster Cathedral, the cages. Now there's nothing in there anymore, 242 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: but the cages are still hanging there. Anybody who tries 243 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 2: this kind of nuttiness, we want you to know, this 244 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 2: is what we're gonna do with you. You have another guy 245 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 2: who's ironically his name is Thomas Muntzer. Again, this is 246 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 2: in Germany, the Battle of Frankenhaus, and he tells peasants 247 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 2: that this is the end of the world, the age 248 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 2: of the Spirit. God is coming back soon, and that 249 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 2: he is the Lord is returning, and that they should 250 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 2: take over the you know that God is going to 251 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 2: help them defeat the evil powers of church and state. 252 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: And so all these peasants rise up and form an 253 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 2: army and it's the one of the biggest slaughters in 254 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 2: the history of the world. There's something like ten thousand 255 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 2: and peasants killed in like a dozen of because Munster 256 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 2: is telling them things like you're gonna catch their cannon 257 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 2: balls in your sleeves and all this because God's told 258 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 2: them all this stuff. This is part of the reason James, 259 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 2: that Luther comes out of hiding hiding at the Vartberg 260 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 2: and he begins to hear that these radical voices are 261 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 2: increasingly taking over in Wittenberg and they're tearing down crucifixes 262 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 2: and all this other kind of radical stuff. And Luther 263 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 2: is saying, no, no, no, you've heard about the peasant wars. 264 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 2: A lot of that stuff is this apocalyptic kind of 265 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 2: and and in fairness, people like Mennonites and Amish et cetera. 266 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 2: Want to distance themselves from this kind of nuttiness. The 267 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 2: problem is they're all they're all claiming to be adult baptism, 268 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 2: only they're all claiming that everything went off the rails 269 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:10,959 Speaker 2: with Constantine. It's the same sort of radicalism. We must 270 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 2: radically break from the past. This is the age of 271 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 2: the spirit. God is doing something new. This is exactly 272 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 2: what Luther did not want to happen. This is exactly 273 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 2: what the Catholic Church said was going to happen. This 274 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 2: is what happens when you turn this loose and give 275 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 2: it to the common folks. They go nutty. And so 276 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 2: he has to try to domesticate this thing. He has 277 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 2: to come out and try to, you know, stop this 278 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 2: sort of craziness that that is going way beyond anything 279 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 2: he had in vision. But once the ball starts rolling, 280 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 2: it's hard to stop this thing. 281 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,479 Speaker 1: It's kind of crazy how right Plato was about this, 282 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 1: wasn't it. I Mean, like, you know, you move from 283 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 1: you know, sort of the centralized, wise ruler authoritarian model 284 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 1: over to the democratized the people are in charge sort 285 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 1: of model, and all you end up doing is swinging 286 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 1: between the two pendulums. Because both sides. It's crazy. There's 287 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,199 Speaker 1: so much opportunity for it to devolve into something that 288 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 1: just doesn't work that it's like you're in constant historical 289 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: correction all the time. It feels like just an amazing 290 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: observation he made. 291 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 2: Well, that is that is theoretically the genius of the 292 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 2: American system. Because people walk around talking about the United 293 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 2: States being a democracy, it's not. No, it's a democratic republic. 294 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 1: Republic. 295 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's committed to keeping us from becoming mob rule. 296 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 2: That's what the Electoral College is about. Yeah, it's to 297 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 2: keep it from being mob ruled, to protect the rights 298 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 2: of the minority, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Anyway, 299 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 2: we don't want to do that. No. 300 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,239 Speaker 1: No, It's really interesting though, And I think as we 301 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: look at this, you know, sort of sort of movement, 302 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: a couple of things come to mind. I mean, number one, 303 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: the number one is just lamentable that the Catholic Church 304 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: didn't see that what they were doing were taking advantage 305 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: of these people in the selling of indulgences and all 306 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 1: of that weird stuff that was going on. It's just 307 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: unfortunate that they didn't recognize, Hey, this isn't appropriate. These 308 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: building projects in Rome are not worth people's souls, Like 309 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: we really can't bind and loose people out of purgatory. 310 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I think a lot of what Luther addresses 311 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: in the ninety five theses we know him for that 312 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 1: sort of justification by faith alone, which is really crucial 313 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: and important. But I think that his ninety five theses, 314 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:00,880 Speaker 1: what he's trying to get at it is, Look, you're 315 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 1: claiming an authority that you don't actually have, and you 316 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: need to pull it back in. And that's really through 317 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: those ninety five thess. That's all I hear him saying 318 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,199 Speaker 1: over and over and over and over. How we're going 319 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: to simplify those ninety five thess. That's sort of what 320 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: I would say. You've overreached your authority and you need 321 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: to bring it back in governed by the scriptures. Maybe 322 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 1: that's his full message, not just the ninety five theeces. 323 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,439 Speaker 2: But I think that's fair. The problem is how do 324 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 2: you do that right? 325 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 1: And especially since yeah, especially since the church isn't admitting 326 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: that they're doing something wrong, right, I mean, that's the 327 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: crux of it. 328 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 2: And in fairness, the Roman Church did try to clean 329 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 2: their house after the fact. I mean, they did go back, 330 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 2: they eliminated indulgent sellers, they addressed a lot of this corruption. 331 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 2: But to at that point, you know, yeah, the train 332 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 2: was out of the station. But yeah, I mean, how 333 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 2: do you have authority without it being papal? 334 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 1: That's right, that's. 335 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 2: And and there had been a movement, and the movement 336 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:17,919 Speaker 2: was what was called conciliarism. We're going to put authority 337 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:23,680 Speaker 2: in the councils rather than the popes, and and early 338 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 2: on people like Erasmus were hoping that's where Luther was going. 339 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 2: But when Luther started banging scripture alone, that's when they 340 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 2: started going, this is going well beyond where we wanted 341 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 2: it to go. And at that point, uh and and 342 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 2: you know, Luther, just as popes and councils have airred 343 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 2: in the past. 344 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's an interesting So when I look at 345 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: the Reformation and what Luther does, he makes sort of 346 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: a classical mistake that we see in organizations. An awful 347 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: lot organizations right policies, and they have these policy books 348 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: and they say, Okay, this is what's going to govern 349 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: our institution, this is what's going to govern our organization. 350 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: But they can't actually enforce those things. This, to me 351 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: is what Luther does with the Catechism. If you can't 352 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: get people to follow the Catechism, to live within it, 353 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 1: within those constraints, you really the Catechism is now a 354 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: passive instrument. As good as it is, it's a passive instrument. 355 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 1: It almost becomes I mean, I almost hate to make 356 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 1: this parallelism, but it comes like the law. The law 357 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 1: is good because God gave it, and it expresses, you know, 358 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: an attempt to curtail sin and the point to goodness, 359 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: truth and beauty. Now, however we want to frame that, 360 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: but it's weak because it can't deal with human sin. 361 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: And I think the Catechism falls short on that round. 362 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: Whereas if you went to a different system where they're 363 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: a clear line of authority that can execute some things 364 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: you do have at least you might say a better 365 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 1: shot at it. It's still not going to be perfect, 366 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: You're still going to deal with some things. But I 367 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 1: do think that the way Luther ended up with this 368 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: is problematic. It creates a lot of problems. I shouldn't 369 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: say it's problematic, it creates different problems that we're available 370 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 1: in the Catholic Church. And then the second thing, I 371 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 1: just want to say that I appreciate about what you explained. 372 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: Even when I've looked at the peasant revolts, I sort 373 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: of framed that in terms of there's one denomination going 374 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: against another denomination when I when you described it at 375 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: this time around, I'm thinking now more like David Koresh 376 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: and you know, really fringe crazy movements that are are 377 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: you know, just sort of gathering mobilizing people to do something, 378 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: but there's no real structure or even feel logical weight 379 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: or reasoned biblical interpretation around these things. It's just let's 380 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: let's like wind people up and see what happens. 381 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would, I would say, James, there, what you've 382 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 2: got is a spectrum on this stuff. Okay, so you 383 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 2: know some of them. What happens in the Kingdom of 384 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 2: Munster is krisnipic fringe, what happens in with Thomas Munzer 385 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 2: is lunatic fringe. And then you've got some Yeah, everybody 386 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 2: believes that Jesus is coming back. Christians get nutty around 387 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 2: big round numbers. Okay, it's fifteen hundred, fifteen thirty three. Oh, 388 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 2: it's been fifteen. Jesus died thirty three. Oh, you know 389 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 2: Jesus is coming back. Yeah, there is so much turmoil 390 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 2: in the world. Muslims are at the gates of Vienna, 391 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 2: on and on and on and on and on. This 392 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 2: has to be the end of the world. So so 393 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 2: God is going to do something radical. And so you 394 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 2: know that that's in the water. There's apocalyptic thing is 395 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 2: in the water. That's part of this. And the other 396 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 2: part of this is you've been You've had massive social 397 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 2: upheaval because of the Black Death. You know, we have 398 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 2: no idea. I was reading numbers last night. I think 399 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 2: it was somewhere between fifteen and seventy five million they estimate. Wow, 400 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 2: Europeans died and the numbers are just stunning. Places like Siena. 401 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 2: I believe it is a seventy percent seven zero percent. 402 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 2: So the social disruption, all the structures of society that 403 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 2: provide order. 404 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: Are just estimated. 405 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:54,159 Speaker 2: So you've got you've got multiple layers of chaos, and 406 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 2: we know what that does in terms of charismatic leaders, 407 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 2: apocalyptic sorts of messages, on and on and on. So 408 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 2: all of this was it's an you could see it 409 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 2: coming in that sense. 410 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really an interesting I mean I remember going 411 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: through Luther's house and reading that even he thought they 412 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: were living in the end times, you know. And so 413 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 1: you can understand why because if we just look back 414 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: in our recent past, we've had the COVID pandemic and 415 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: all that kind of good stuff. And while there wasn't 416 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: there may have been some religious fervor that I just 417 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: sort of missed, right, But you know, I didn't get 418 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: the sense that people really pointed to this as the 419 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: apocalypse or something like that necessarily, but you did get 420 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: a lot of charismatic leaders coming out and swaying things 421 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: one way or another. And in a context where there's 422 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: so much complexity and so much chaos that you really 423 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: can't identify what is true or what is not because 424 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: the information is constantly swinging out to you, you know, 425 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: sort of moment by moment. The people who are going 426 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: to take advantage of that and and be surer than 427 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: they ought to be sure in a moment. And so 428 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: it's just an interesting way to frame I think, and 429 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: try to look back and go, this is the turmoil 430 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: that these Germans were experiencing, that sort of societal discomfort, 431 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: complete instability, and now they're also trying to navigate their 432 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: religious convictions alongside that. And I think it's even crazier 433 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: that most of these people probably again, correct me if 434 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: I'm wrong, but Luther's just translated the Bible into English. 435 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: It's not like these folks were you know, steeped in 436 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: into German. I'm sorry, yeah, just really into German. But 437 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: it's not like these folks were steeped in scripture and 438 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: they were were illiterate, right, So, I mean it's one 439 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: thing for for the Luther to say, you know, my 440 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: conscious self captive by the Word of God. It's another 441 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: thing for just you know, Joe Jerman on the street 442 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: to say it, because he probably he hasn't read it, 443 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: and if he has, he's just started. 444 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're if you're looking at a population where 445 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 2: eighty percent of the mirror are illiterate, you know that 446 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 2: that's the problem. We like to say things like the 447 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 2: Roman Catholics kept the Bible from the people, Well, you 448 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 2: don't have to keep it from him if they can't read, right, 449 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that that's completely untrue, but I'm saying, yeah. 450 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: It's a factor we have to take into account exactly exactly. Yeah, yeah, 451 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: I mean, you can distribute it all you want, but 452 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: if it can't be read and understood. You know who 453 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: is a Philip right in the Ethiopian yep, right, how 454 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: well I know what it says. If no, there's no 455 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: one here to teach me kind of thing, and he 456 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: can read it, and he can read it. Yeah, he 457 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: was literate and he's still needed to teach her. So 458 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: I think this helps with the dynamics of what happens 459 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: post Reformation, and we'll we'll kind of leave it there 460 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: and we'll transition in and then next episode talking a 461 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,959 Speaker 1: little bit about the we could call it the tradition 462 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: that emerges from Protestantism, the souls, and how these ultimately 463 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: sort of start to frame the trajectory of the Protestant 464 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: Church or the Protestant churches, however we want to phrase that, 465 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: But that becomes the core really of our tradition. So 466 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: that's we'll address the next time. So again, Greg, thanks 467 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: for being here, and everybody else we'll catch on the 468 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: next episode of Thinking Christian. Take care. I just want 469 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: to take a second to thank the team at Life 470 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. 471 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,719 Speaker 1: If you go to lifeaudio dot com you'll find dozens 472 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: of other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got 473 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.