1 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Breaking down politics, culture, and the buzz of the day 2 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: with bold conversations about faith, family, and living what you believe. 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,480 Speaker 1: This is the Danielle Gill Show. 4 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 2: I'm delighted to welcome our guest today, Denesh. 5 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 3: Howdy Howdy, Well. 6 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 2: I wanted to spend today's show actually asking you about Reagan, 7 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 2: one of our greatest presidents of all time. The you know, 8 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 2: iconic Ronald Reagan, and because you worked with him in 9 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 2: the White House, you wear a book about Reagan. You have, 10 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 2: of course seen the Republican Party evolve, You've seen kind 11 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 2: of the effects of his policies. Wanting to start by 12 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 2: asking you about him as a person. How would you 13 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 2: kind of describe him, even just personally, because I think 14 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 2: a lot of interesting anecdotes that come out about him 15 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:57,959 Speaker 2: show him to be very genial and a very kind 16 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 2: of like warm person of people got along with, and 17 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 2: even in his humor that people know him for, he 18 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 2: seems like that. I guess how would you add color 19 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:10,479 Speaker 2: to it? How would you describe him? 20 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 4: Reagan was a Midwestern guy who went out to Hollywood 21 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,199 Speaker 4: as a young man and became a pretty big star. 22 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 4: He was outwardly genial and social and witty, partly because 23 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 4: he had been in the public limelight for a long time, 24 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:36,759 Speaker 4: so he was the kind of guy when he walked 25 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 4: in the room he expected the camera to be on him. 26 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,119 Speaker 4: And he was also very conscious of how he hailed himself. 27 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 4: I mean, you'll never find him like scratching his ear, 28 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 4: you know, or he was aware that he was on 29 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 4: stage even if he entered a room. 30 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 3: He had that ability which a few people have. 31 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 4: It's not common where if you enter a large room 32 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 4: with five hundred people, eyes will somehow automatically turn toward you. 33 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 3: I think Trump is like that, and Reagan was like 34 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 3: that as well. 35 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 4: There are others we know, including presidents, who could enter 36 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 4: a room and no one notices and no one even cares. 37 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 2: I buy it or who are you thinking? 38 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 3: Well, you know, Kennedy supposedly had that kind of charisma. 39 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 3: LBJ didn't. 40 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 4: LBJ had other types of strength, but he didn't have 41 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 4: that kind of magnetism. I would say, even Bill Clinton, 42 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 4: if he enters the room, it's not going to turn 43 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 4: any heads per se. Now, Bill Clinton is supposedly very charming, 44 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 4: like one on one, He's got this kind of ability 45 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 4: to draw you in. He makes you feel like he's 46 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 4: interested in you. But with Reagan, he had that public magnetism. Now, 47 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,519 Speaker 4: Reagan was inwardly very tough though, and I think it's 48 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:57,679 Speaker 4: partly his own just inner strength, but partly it was 49 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 4: that he had dealt with unions in Hollywood, and the 50 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 4: unions in those days were infiltrated by communists. They were 51 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 4: occasionally very violent, were they sometimes did threats. You know, 52 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 4: unions have been known to kill people. And so Reagan 53 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 4: understood that he's dealing with these pro Soviet hard, bare 54 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 4: knuckle types. And Reagan was capable of handling that kind 55 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:23,799 Speaker 4: of situation. 56 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 57 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 4: So he was an unusual man, a product of a 58 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 4: different generation. He was born in nineteen eleven, so more 59 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 4: than one hundred years ago, and he had come of 60 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 4: age and the Depression, so he was a product of 61 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 4: the depression in World War Two. Those were his formative years. 62 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 4: And then he was governor California for eight years, two terms. 63 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 3: Hard to believe. 64 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 4: California was Republican in the sixties. So Reagan dealt with 65 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 4: the hippie movement. He dealt with a lot of the activists. 66 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 4: He had his own unique way of dealing with them. 67 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 4: And then then there was a kind of interregnum after 68 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 4: he left the governorship before he ran for the presidency, 69 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 4: and he lost the first time he ran well, the 70 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 4: first time he ran seriously was in nineteen seventy six 71 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 4: against the incumbent President Ford, and he almost beat him. 72 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 4: But in nineteen eighty he won. He got the nomination easily, 73 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 4: and then he won pretty decisively. And then when he 74 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 4: ran again in eighty four, think of it. Reagan won 75 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 4: forty nine states. I mean, that's almost inconceivable today. Wow, 76 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 4: mane only won his home state. 77 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 2: Wow. So it seems like he had so much I 78 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 2: guess popularity all over the nation. Do you feel like 79 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 2: that kind of indicated the nation was much more united 80 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 2: back then. 81 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 3: Well, to some degree indicates that, but also indicates that. 82 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 4: Reagan kind of annihilated his opposition in such a way 83 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 4: that on every issue he was seen to be better. 84 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 4: A foreign policy reg the economy is doing pretty well, 85 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 4: Reagan's better. Reagan reflects the cultural values. He's the kind 86 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 4: of all American guy. And of course that was Reagan. 87 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 4: You know, when he was young, he was a lifeguard, 88 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 4: and so he was he was a football star, he 89 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 4: was a radio announcer, he was a movie star, so 90 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 4: he had a lot and he was a good looking guy, 91 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 4: so he had a lot of kind of traits that 92 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,919 Speaker 4: came together. So even Jimmy Carter, who was the incumbent president, 93 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 4: won only six states, Rage won forty four, and then 94 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 4: four years later Reagan won forty nine. And this is funny, 95 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 4: but mont speaks well of Mondale. Mondale was in a 96 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 4: law firm and after Monde lost, Mondale went back to 97 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 4: his law firm and applied to be a partner, which 98 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 4: he had been before. And evidently there was some opposition 99 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 4: for the part of the law firm taking Mondale back. 100 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 4: They decided, apparently narrowly, the partners voted to take him back, 101 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 4: and so they asked Mondale. They go, Mondal, don't you 102 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 4: feel like a little embarras rest your own law firm 103 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 4: like voted five to four to take you back. 104 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 3: And Mondale was like, five to four. He's like, by 105 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 3: my standards, that's a. 106 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 4: Landslide, you know, because he had lost so badly to Reagan. 107 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 3: Mondale was like, I'm very happy with five to four. 108 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 4: Man. 109 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 3: So anyway, this is a little glimpse of of who 110 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 3: Reagan was. 111 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 2: Wow, well, I have multiple questions. Probably in my head, 112 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 2: But I guess I'll go here, do you think that 113 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 2: there's this kind of desire in the Republican Party? And 114 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 2: I can't say for someone like famous, but it seems like, 115 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 2: you know, Trump was a movie I'm sorry, Reagan was 116 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 2: a movie star, but then Trump was also really like 117 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 2: famous in culture. And I guess when I think of 118 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 2: the left leftist presidents of late, they weren't necessarily like that, 119 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 2: they were kind of like politicians. Do you think that's 120 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 2: because the right is drawn to that more? Do you 121 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 2: think it's just kind of a coincidence that Reagan and 122 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 2: Trump both had cultural that's significance. 123 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 4: Well, I think that if you're if you're going up 124 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 4: against somebody who is let's say the incumbent president, and 125 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 4: I'm thinking here, let's just say you're running against Bill 126 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 4: Clinton's let's say he's been the president elected in ninety two, 127 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 4: he's running in ninety six. The Republicans run this guy, 128 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 4: Bob Dole, who's actually a very kind of ry and 129 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 4: funny guy, but not a magnetic, larger than life figure, 130 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 4: and so he's dwarfed a little. 131 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 3: Bit by Clinton. 132 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 4: I think after Obama, who had you know, Obama was 133 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 4: magnified in all kinds of ways by the media. But 134 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 4: Obama did have a charisma, and Obama was in a 135 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 4: destructive way a powerful figure. It was really helpful for 136 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 4: the Republicans and Hillary too. Hillary came from that Clinton dynasty. 137 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 4: They had been in power for almost twenty years in 138 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 4: one way or another, so to bring out a larger 139 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 4: than life figure who didn't have to fight to get 140 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 4: name recognition. 141 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 3: He was already a household name. 142 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,559 Speaker 4: In fact, his name was as well known as Hillary 143 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 4: if you took a pole even before the election, long 144 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 4: before the campaign. 145 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 3: That's a big plus. So Reagan had that and Trump 146 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 3: had that as well. 147 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 2: Wow, going back to I guess Reagan, Trump, where do 148 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 2: you think Nixon falls in there? With just kind of 149 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 2: comparing the three of them, what do you think was 150 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 2: unique about him? 151 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 3: Nixon was. 152 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 4: Not a natural politician, which makes it very not just surprising, 153 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 4: but in a way very amazing that he made his 154 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:39,079 Speaker 4: way to the presidency because if you looked at him, 155 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 4: he was what we were today call like a nerd. 156 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 3: He was very awkward. He didn't even walk in a 157 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 3: normal way. 158 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,959 Speaker 4: If you look at Nixon, you know how normally when 159 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 4: people walk their left arm and their right arm kind 160 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 4: of alternate. The right arm goes forward, the left arm 161 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 4: is back, and then vice versa. With Nixon, the two 162 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:04,839 Speaker 4: arms went together. He was downright awkward, and he was 163 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:09,599 Speaker 4: capable of saying the most amazing things. He was also like, 164 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 4: you know, most people, even if they're angry or hateful, 165 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 4: they kind of conceal it. But the thing about Nixon 166 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 4: was he would advertise his own like bitterness and things. 167 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 4: You'd say things like you don't have Dick Nixon to 168 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 4: kick around anymore, you know, Like Reagan would know, don't 169 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 4: say that, like, that's not the kind of thing you 170 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 4: want to say in like to the media. You know. 171 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 4: So Nixon was an unusual guy, but he was extremely smart. 172 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 4: He was probably one of our most intellectual presidents. 173 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 3: He would read, you know. 174 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 4: Churchill, Disraeli, Daniel Webster's speeches. So Nixon sort of tried 175 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 4: to acquire greatness by learning about great men and sort 176 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 4: of emulating them. Now, I would think that Reagan is 177 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 4: more like Trump. Neither of them spent like even an. 178 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 3: Hour on this topic. They they they're larger than life. 179 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 4: They they're gonna do their own thing, but it's not 180 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 4: modeled on anybody else, and neither of them. Now, Reagan 181 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,719 Speaker 4: was genuinely interested in ideas. Reagan could sit down and 182 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 4: listen to Milton Friedman or Bill Buckley and he'd be 183 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 4: intrigued in what they had to say. But Reagan was 184 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 4: not himself an intellectual. 185 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 3: But Nixon, I. 186 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:30,719 Speaker 2: Think was wow interesting. It's kind of unrelated, but as 187 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 2: far as Reagan, I had read a book recently about 188 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,719 Speaker 2: the Queen of England meeting different presidents because she was 189 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:42,199 Speaker 2: the queen for so long, I think seventy years, and 190 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,559 Speaker 2: so I think the biography was just going to go 191 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 2: on through her experiences with our presidents, and the biographer 192 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,559 Speaker 2: was talking about how she loved Reagan. She thinks that 193 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 2: she never said who her favorite was because you shouldn't say, 194 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 2: but she was saying how she thinks that that was 195 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 2: her favorite was Reagan because they both loved horse Is 196 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 2: And also I just imagine Reagan was such a nice 197 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 2: person to get along with. But do you think he 198 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,079 Speaker 2: kind of made a special connection with a lot of 199 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 2: I guess born leaders, people like the Queen, people like 200 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,439 Speaker 2: that because it seems like he's just hard to not work. 201 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:24,599 Speaker 4: Well. You can tell the power of Reagan's personality. In 202 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 4: this way, you had Mikhail Gorbachev, and he was a 203 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 4: Soviet leader. And remember, unlike even Putin, Putin to some 204 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,079 Speaker 4: degree came up in the communist system, he was a 205 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 4: young man in the communist system. Gorbachev was a complete 206 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 4: product of the Communist system. So he was a Soviet leader. 207 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 4: No American president has ever gotten through to a Soviet leader. 208 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 4: It's like Nixon wouldn't even dream of trying. Nixon's idea 209 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 4: was we meet in a room, you know, we shut 210 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 4: the doors and we hammer out in agreement. This was 211 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 4: kind of Nixon's way of thinking. And you know, we 212 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 4: got to make sure they don't take advantage of us. 213 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 4: And but Reagan would kind of work on Gorbachev, and 214 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 4: he would work on him on a personal side. He 215 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,079 Speaker 4: would say things like, well, you know, I don't know 216 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 4: if you are a Christian, but have you. 217 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 3: Thought about this? 218 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 4: Or Reagan would and Gorbachev was extremely like taken by Reagan. 219 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 4: And I say this, by the way, not just from 220 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 4: you know, from observing the world. I actually had a chance, 221 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,959 Speaker 4: in writing my Reagan book in the nineties to interview Gorbachev, 222 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,079 Speaker 4: and I asked him about this exact point. And the 223 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 4: thing about Gorbachev was you could tell that Reagan had 224 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,559 Speaker 4: an effect on him, so that when Gorbachev ultimately made 225 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 4: the decision to like dissolve the Soviet Union abolish the 226 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 4: Communist Party, at one point, while all. 227 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 3: This is going on, he goes to see Reagan, and. 228 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 4: Some of the Soviets, after the Cold War ended, started 229 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,959 Speaker 4: saying things that were so unusual that it sounded to 230 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 4: me like they got him from Reagan. I'll give you one, 231 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 4: just one example, which is, if you follow Soviet rhetoric, 232 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 4: it's all very you know, it's boiler played. 233 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 3: It seems to come out of like Marxist rhetoric. 234 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,959 Speaker 4: But one of these Soviet leaders was asked, a press 235 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 4: spokesman was asked, while Eastern Europe is rebelling, the Soviets 236 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:30,959 Speaker 4: could have used force to crush it, but they never did. 237 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,079 Speaker 4: And one of the journalists asked this guy. They go, 238 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 4: you know, you're deciding you're not using force to crush 239 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 4: Poland and East Germany and all these countries that were 240 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 4: completely under your control. 241 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 3: You're kind of letting them go. And this guy goes, well, 242 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 3: he goes, he goes. 243 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 4: Our policy is governed by the Frank Sinatra song called 244 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 4: My Way. Have you heard that song? 245 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 3: I did it my Way? 246 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 4: And this guy goes, We're gonna let these countries do 247 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 4: it their own way. Now, no Soviet express statement has 248 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 4: ever sounded like that. That sounds like Reagan. And if 249 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 4: it doesn't sound like it came from Reagan's own mouth, 250 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:10,719 Speaker 4: it comes from I would call it Reaganism. 251 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,199 Speaker 3: This is the kind of thing Reagan would say to Gorbachev. 252 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 4: Well, you know, and so with Reagan, the personal element 253 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 4: of that diplomacy I think cannot be discounted. I'm not 254 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 4: sure if historians are fully caught onto that. Historians sent 255 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 4: a work off of documents, not so much out of 256 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 4: personal dealings with people. But this is a side of 257 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 4: Reagan that I think over time will will come out. 258 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, that is Coleute, really amazing because it is 259 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 2: hard to put it into words, just the actual experiences 260 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 2: versus things like the documents. I guess you think that Reagan, 261 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 2: if he was around longer, do you think he would 262 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 2: have seen the country things going in this direction? Where 263 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 2: do you think people even just weren't Reagan, but people 264 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 2: back then do you think that they I guess viewed 265 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 2: things kind of the way people do today. I know 266 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 2: it was such a different time and there were different 267 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 2: foreign issues, different things going on. But I guess if 268 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 2: you will zoom out, how do you think the strategy 269 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 2: is then compared to maybe the strategies now in the Republican. 270 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 3: Well, I think that. 271 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 4: The job of a great president is going to be 272 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 4: to identify the defining problem of your time and to 273 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 4: have a way of addressing it. Now, even if you 274 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 4: are completely successful, and in fact, when you are completely successful, 275 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 4: there will be some new problems that will arise out 276 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 4: of your solution. It's not your job to solve those problems. 277 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 4: Those are going to be, in a way, the problems 278 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 4: you bequeath to the next generation, and they might have 279 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 4: to have a different way of solving them. So, for example, 280 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 4: if you look at the founding generation, their problem was 281 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 4: to solve the issue of foreign control, British domination of 282 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 4: this country, to establish self government in one way or another, 283 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 4: and they all worked at that, and I would say 284 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 4: that was the great cause of George Washington. Now, if 285 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 4: you fast forward to the nineteenth century into Lincoln, the 286 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 4: issue was not slavery so much as the extension of 287 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 4: slavery is slavery going to expand so America becomes essentially 288 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 4: a slave holding nation, or is slavery going to be 289 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 4: contracted and controlled and essentially shrink until it goes away. 290 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 4: So Lincoln was focused laser like on that issue, and 291 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 4: even though he dealt with other issues, they were not 292 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 4: fundamental to him. And the eighteen sixty election was fought. 293 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 4: It was a single issue election on that issue. Fast 294 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 4: forward to Reagan. The central problem was I would call 295 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 4: it collectivism. It reflected itself and the Soviet Empire abroad 296 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 4: and the spread of the welfare state at home. And 297 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 4: Reagan saw those two as connected, and his job is 298 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 4: to stop it, meaning is not to do he to 299 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 4: essentially roll back the Soviet Union. I don't even think 300 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 4: at the beginning he thought he could end the Cold War, 301 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 4: end the whole Soviet Empire. 302 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 3: But I think over time he saw I might be 303 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 3: able to actually get. 304 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 4: Even more done than I had anticipated, and he did 305 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 4: do achieve that, And domestically his job was like, I'm 306 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 4: just going to stop the growth of the welfare state. 307 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 3: I'm going to shut it down. 308 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 4: I'm going to coordinate off and then Reagan also in 309 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 4: a way invented the politics of traditional values, because prior 310 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 4: to Reagan, what we now call the social and the 311 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 4: cultural issues were not even issues in America in politics, 312 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 4: Like Nixon wouldn't even have recognized politics about that dealt 313 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 4: with issues of identity, abortion, the family, the Ten Commandments. 314 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 4: Nixon will be like, what are we talking about? This 315 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 4: has nothing to do with politics. Politics is basically about economics, 316 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 4: and like foreign policy and solving the Middle East problems 317 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 4: and then dealing with the gold standard, and so what 318 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 4: are you even talking to me about? Nixon would find 319 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 4: it flabbergasting. But in the Reagan era, the politics of 320 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 4: cultural values and what we call traditional values came to 321 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,919 Speaker 4: the forefront. So it's all very ironic because there are 322 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 4: some young people today who think that like conservatives didn't 323 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 4: deal with these issues and the older generation. But no, 324 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 4: these were central issues going back, maybe not going back 325 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 4: to the sixties, because that's when you had the left, 326 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 4: the left wing cultural revolution, but the eighties was definitely 327 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:56,719 Speaker 4: an attempt to curtail and corral the sixties. You couldn't 328 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 4: sort of erase it entirely, because of course you had 329 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 4: a giant baby boom generation that was were teenagers in 330 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 4: the sixties and in their early twenties, and these people 331 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 4: were obviously coming of age, so they were going to 332 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 4: be a force to be reckoned with. But essentially, you know, 333 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,360 Speaker 4: clamping down on the sixties was part of the goal 334 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 4: of the Reagan era. 335 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 2: Explain to me, I guess if you rewind, because obviously, 336 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 2: I guess before the sixties maybe didn't make sense because 337 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 2: you didn't have all these crazy things that came out 338 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 2: of the sixties, So it would make sense that the 339 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 2: eighties would be a response to that. And before that, 340 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 2: maybe it wasn't necessary for people to necessarily take chances 341 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 2: on that because we had an argaly Christian culture and 342 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 2: we didn't face those same problems. But I guess these 343 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 2: things came about in the sixties. We're talking you know, 344 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 2: obviously the civil rights movement, but also all the other 345 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 2: things that came out of it, the birth control. 346 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 4: Pill, feminism, sexual revolution, Yeah, all of the drugs, rock 347 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 4: and roll. 348 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 3: All of that. 349 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, all the horrible stuff. And so then it's kind 350 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 2: of like, how is it that that which is I 351 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 2: think maybe largely new, How does that become still in 352 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 2: control even just twenty years later, where all of a 353 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 2: sudden you're in the eighties and you're like, I'm the minority. 354 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 2: I have to fight back against these this culture and 355 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 2: these people that control things. Because it was only twenty 356 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 2: years later. How did the left gain so much ground in. 357 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 4: That the United States in the fifties was dominated by 358 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 4: a single class of people. And I would describe these 359 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:43,880 Speaker 4: people as classical liberals. They were not conservatives, because think 360 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 4: of it. To be a conservative, you already have to 361 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 4: be somewhat embattled. You have to be like, I've got 362 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 4: to conserve this. These people weren't conserving anything. This was 363 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 4: like their society. They were in charge. You would call 364 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 4: it like the establishment min and large. I would say 365 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 4: that Republicans and Democrats who were successful were part of 366 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 4: the same establishment and shared the classical liberal outlook. Universities 367 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 4: were run by the same people, classical liberals. Now, what 368 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 4: happened was there were pockets of leftists in the United 369 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 4: States and in Europe going back to the twenties and thirties. 370 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 4: Some of those people who became communists in the thirties, 371 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 4: some of them were communists after the depression because they're like, 372 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 4: capitalism doesn't work. But this bohemian leftism, as I'm going 373 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 4: to call it. You would find it like in the 374 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 4: Sorbonne on the left bank of Paris. You'd find it 375 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 4: in Swabia, in certain parts of Germany, you'd find it 376 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 4: in certain parts of England. You'd find it in Greenwich Village, Berkeley, California. 377 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 4: But what happened in the sixties was that that Bohemian 378 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 4: sensibility went mainstream. It tapped into a much wider circle 379 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 4: of people. And what happened is it was a big 380 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 4: challenge the classical liberal establishment. So the real fight was 381 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 4: not between the right and the left. It was between 382 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 4: I would call it the liberals versus the leftists, and 383 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 4: the liberals proved to be and this is in a 384 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 4: way the great tragedy of the twentieth century. The liberals 385 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 4: proved to be extremely spineless Invertebrate. They very quickly surrendered 386 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 4: to the left. And therefore it didn't even seem like 387 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 4: these you know, even though there were some disruptions at 388 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 4: the university. There were protests at Columbia, and in some 389 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 4: cases they took over the dean's office. You don't have 390 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 4: to burn any universities down to take them over. 391 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 3: There wasn't any real revolution because the. 392 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 4: Liberals collapsed in the face of the pressure exerted by 393 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 4: the left, and the conservative movement was born out of 394 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,959 Speaker 4: that because it was almost like the conservatives suddenly realized, 395 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 4: the people running our society are our weak. Need there 396 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 4: a disgrace. They're surrendering to the left. We need a movement, 397 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 4: intellectual movement, a populist movement to push back against this. 398 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 4: For the first time, the conservative movement was actually born. 399 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 4: It was intellectually it has its roots in the fifties, 400 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 4: but it was really born in the seventies to resist 401 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 4: the effect of the sixties. So it was on the outside, 402 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 4: it was it never started off in the corridors of power. 403 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 4: And this is the fallacy of the people who so 404 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 4: what do you conserve? Well, we didn't run any universities 405 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 4: to conserve them. If we had Harvard and lost it, 406 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 4: then you could say we didn't conserve Harvard. But we quote, 407 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 4: we didn't never controlled Harvard University, at least not in 408 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 4: the twentieth century. 409 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 2: So why weren't there people, I guess maybe in the 410 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 2: forties or at some previous time who were tied to 411 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 2: let's say conservative values. Maybe there wasn't this official you know, VW, 412 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 2: but who were like, we love these institutions, we love 413 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 2: this place, we do want to conserve it, and we're 414 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 2: not just these open minded liberal, classically liberal people. I 415 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 2: guess those are the people who kind of had the power, 416 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 2: but did other people just not feel the need to 417 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 2: believe things that strongly or pulled onto them that tightly 418 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 2: because they didn't feel like there was really a threat. 419 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,439 Speaker 2: And then but then when the left GIFs came up 420 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 2: with these revolutionaries, people who kind of came out of 421 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,360 Speaker 2: Marxism and all this, they're much more hardcore. They're set 422 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 2: on their idea. Look, so when they infiltrate, they're obviously 423 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 2: going to be very set or they're not going to 424 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 2: be opening to people. 425 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 4: So I get it. 426 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 2: You have the classically liberal people of merit, open minded 427 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 2: people who give everything away. Were there just not really 428 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,439 Speaker 2: a lot of other people who felt very strongly about 429 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 2: tradition and preserving those things. 430 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 3: The irony, I. 431 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 4: Think is that the economic conservatism was. 432 00:24:58,480 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 3: In the North. 433 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 4: It was the Republican Party of the North, was the 434 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 4: party a big business of commerce, and so you had 435 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 4: a lot of commercial kind of conservatives, free market conservatives 436 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 4: in the North. The Party of traditional values, or at 437 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 4: least the anchor of that was in the South. But 438 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 4: that South was contaminated by things like slavery and segregation, 439 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 4: and so it was very easy and again this was 440 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 4: not a debate involving conservatives. It was very easy for 441 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 4: the left to come along and say to the liberals 442 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 4: that any effort to create a traditional society is nothing 443 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 4: more than to restore segregation, or is nothing more than 444 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 4: an effort to go back to the past. And you 445 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 4: can imagine in an era, particularly the civil rights movement 446 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 4: had a lot to do with this. 447 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 3: It created a situation where to be. 448 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 4: If for the past, is to be against civil rights, 449 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 4: but to be for civil rights is to be progressive, 450 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 4: the party of the future, the party of change. And 451 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 4: so this is partly why the liberals were on the 452 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 4: defensive against the left, is that the liberals agreed. They 453 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 4: believed in the end in progress, they believed in the 454 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 4: future over the past, and so they shared a lot 455 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,640 Speaker 4: of assumptions with the left. The typical liberal would say 456 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 4: things like, you know, civil rights is a really good idea, 457 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 4: but we've got to approach it in a measured way. 458 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 4: Let's not overturn the institutions of society to get there. 459 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 4: But I agree that we need to go in that direction. 460 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 4: So thinking that once you can see that the other 461 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 4: guy's right, that his principles and he is actually a 462 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 4: reformer who is more urgently seeking the good than you are, 463 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 4: you're already on the defensive. 464 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 3: You're already up against the wall. 465 00:26:55,119 --> 00:27:00,640 Speaker 4: So Reaganism came along to Basically, Reganism was the first 466 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 4: two fisted defense of traditional values. And essentially what we 467 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 4: had to realize is that we couldn't count on the liberals. 468 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 4: To some degree, we still tried to make allies with 469 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 4: them because we were trying to essentially make it the 470 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 4: right plus the classical liberals against the left. And Reagan 471 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 4: was pretty successful with that. By the way, he got 472 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 4: a lot of classical liberals to go, you know what, 473 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 4: this is too much for me. I'm going to vote 474 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 4: for Reagan. Many of those people will call Reagan democrats. 475 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 2: What issues do you think were those things that made 476 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 2: people say, well, this is too much? Today might be 477 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 2: an example would be the trans issue. But obviously back. 478 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 3: Then, I right, So the issues then were very different. 479 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 4: So I would say the left was pushing not just 480 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 4: for equality of opportunity or equality of rights, but equality 481 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 4: of results. And there were a lot of liberals who 482 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 4: were like, no, I agree with the quality of opportunity, 483 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 4: but I do not agree with the quality of results. 484 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 3: I'm out abortion. 485 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 4: There were classical liberals who said, in effect, abortion should 486 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 4: be allowed in certain cases, but it should not be 487 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 4: The phrase was then abortion on demand. 488 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 3: I'm not okay with abortion on demand. 489 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 4: I think that there are some cases when it should 490 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,360 Speaker 4: be allowed, but in the majority of cases in which 491 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,680 Speaker 4: it is being done, it should not be allowed. And 492 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 4: so you had again more conservative Democrats voting with the 493 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 4: Republicans on that issue. That was the birth of the 494 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 4: pro life the pro life movement. The liberals also believe 495 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 4: that the United States should be an example to the world. 496 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 4: The United States should be strong. Where the right would 497 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 4: differ from the classical liberals is the right would say 498 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 4: something like, you know, in fact, the right was a 499 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 4: little bit more the way we now call it America. First, 500 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 4: the right would be like, well, we have all these 501 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 4: enemies in the world, We've got to take them on. 502 00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 4: But the liberals would be like, well, we need to 503 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 4: take them on, but don't want to take them on 504 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 4: by ourselves. We need to have allies, and so when 505 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 4: you have allies, you can't always do what you want 506 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 4: because our allies, remember were the European allies, countries like Germany, France, Italy. 507 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 4: So the classical liberals we are always saying that in 508 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 4: dealing with the Soviet Union, we shouldn't be going it alone. 509 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 4: We should be finding common ground with our allies. Even 510 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 4: if that slows us down a little bit. We're stronger 511 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 4: for having a team, a global team, instead of just 512 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 4: the United States all by itself. So you can see 513 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 4: that the debate was narrower than it is today. 514 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 3: The gap is wider today than it was then. 515 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. Do you think that's because of the success of 516 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 2: the crazy Marxist and I have pulled the left further 517 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 2: to the left. 518 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 3: Yes, I think that what's happened is that. 519 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 4: We have seen a cultural radicalization of our society in 520 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 4: which you could call it liberal generosity has proven to 521 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 4: encourage the most depraved, excessive, unrestrained type of behavior, and 522 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 4: the conservatives warned that that was going to happen. You know, 523 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 4: you when you subsidize something, you get more of it, right, 524 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 4: So you subsidize illegitimate kids, you get more illegitimate kids. 525 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 4: You subsidize kids acting badly, they're going to act badly. 526 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:34,719 Speaker 4: You subsidize, you know, this whole idea of alternative lifestyles, 527 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 4: and people are going to there's going to be no 528 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 4: stopping point. And I think that there are many old 529 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 4: liberals who were surprised that the in a sense, you 530 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 4: could say the progressive wagon kept rolling on that even 531 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 4: when it achieved its original goals, like okay, we don't 532 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 4: like discrimination. Okay, well there's hardly any discrimination. People are 533 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 4: bending over backwards to accommodate minorities, but somehow minority discontent 534 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 4: doesn't go away. These people are just as inconsolable as 535 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 4: they were, like in you know, when they were had 536 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 4: to drink out of a separate water fountain. It's as 537 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 4: if they don't acknowledge the amount of progress that's been 538 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 4: made to them. There's always like another hill to climb. 539 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 4: It's like that old saying from Tibet, you know, after 540 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 4: crossing the mountain more mountains. That's the left's approach. It's 541 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 4: like they're never going to say enough. 542 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you think radical wises people to become 543 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 2: Marxist radical leftists the most where they say I see 544 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 2: one mountain, I conquer it. I'm just ready for the 545 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 2: next mountain. Because a lot of them, leftism is their religion. 546 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 4: I think what radicalizes these people is. 547 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 3: The sense of injured merit. 548 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 4: And what I mean by this is that it has 549 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 4: often been said, I think correctly, that no society is 550 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 4: ever ruled truly by the people. You can't find any 551 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 4: example where the people, the ordinary people, are actually running 552 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 4: a society. 553 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:15,959 Speaker 3: It's always some elite. 554 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 4: And usually you find that when there is a revolutionary 555 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 4: movement of any kind in any society, it is the 556 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 4: elite that feels a little wounded, a little left out, 557 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 4: that is mobilizing in the name of the people against 558 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 4: the existing elite. 559 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 3: So let me give you an example. 560 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 4: So let's just take for example, in the United States. 561 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 4: In my view, we have a society where the greatest rewards, 562 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 4: the greatest material rewards in our society go to the 563 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 4: entrepreneurial class. Right, You'll have people who are even moderately 564 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 4: successful entrepreneurs who do much better. 565 00:32:57,720 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 3: Than let's say a professor. 566 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 4: I have a professor of Romance language is a dartmouth 567 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 4: who earns two hundred and twenty thousand dollars a year, 568 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 4: but then there's some guy in New Jersey who owns 569 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 4: like seven denies and this guy makes like one million 570 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 4: dollars a year. So the professor hates this. The professor goes, 571 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 4: why am I driving like a beat up Subaru? And 572 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 4: that guy is like a new BMW? Like, Society's unjust 573 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 4: when I who went to grad school, I who have 574 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 4: written all these papers, I who have probably like an 575 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 4: IQ of one hundred and twenty five, one hundred and thirty, 576 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 4: and this dude who's like this fat guy with like 577 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 4: a gold chain on his chest, he's driving a new 578 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 4: BMW like society is obviously set up wrong for this 579 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 4: to happen. And so and so part of it is 580 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 4: the revenge of the professorial class. If you wander like 581 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 4: why why is like Marxism appealing to those guys, not 582 00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 4: because of the doctrine per se, but because this whole 583 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 4: idea that there is an oppressor class. And he thinks, oh, 584 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 4: my gosh, yes, that's the entrepreneurs, the captains of industry, 585 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 4: the elon musk of this world. And so the professors 586 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 4: would like to see a churning of society where their 587 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,399 Speaker 4: type of people come to the top. Now their type 588 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 4: of people can't come to the top, you know, out 589 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 4: of the Sanborn Library at Dartmouth. But then they go, aha, 590 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:27,360 Speaker 4: but we'd have the government. So I can't be I 591 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 4: can't run SpaceX because I have no idea how to 592 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 4: do that. But maybe I'll get appointed to the be 593 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 4: a governor of the Federal Reserve or a regulator, you know, 594 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,879 Speaker 4: in one of the agencies, and I'll exercise power that way. 595 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 4: So in my view, it is what Nietzsche called the 596 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 4: will to power. It's the will to power of the 597 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 4: injured elite trying to supplant some other elite. 598 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:53,959 Speaker 3: Wow. 599 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 2: Fascinating. Well, we're going to have to continue this discussion 600 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 2: next time. Thank you, thank you so much for your thoughts. 601 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 2: We're going to have to dive into it more. So 602 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 2: make sure to like and subscribe to the show. Follow 603 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 2: Janesh's recent episode and we'll see you again next time. 604 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,399 Speaker 1: Breaking down politics, culture, and the buzz of the day 605 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: with bold conversations about faith, family, and living what you believe. 606 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 2: This is the Danielle Gill Show.