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Speaker 1: Welcome to Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Here thousands of

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Speaker 1: hours of Dennis's lectures courses in classic radio programs. Had

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Speaker 1: to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles go to Dennisprager dot com.

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Speaker 2: How many of you remember the American game show to

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Speaker 2: tell the truth, I felt like having everybody getting up

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Speaker 2: and going, my name is Dennis Prager, and then we

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Speaker 2: would have, you know, a contest to see who could

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Speaker 2: best fake out everybody. That's because I don't assume everybody

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Speaker 2: knows my face, but everybody, thank you for coming. This

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Speaker 2: is an incredibly passionate subject, as you know, religion, homosexuality,

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Speaker 2: and sex. It's not just homo sexuality the subject, but

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Speaker 2: that is the we're beginning. How many of you were

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Speaker 2: here for the first session, now so affair and how

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Speaker 2: many were not? And how many did not vote? Okay,

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Speaker 2: fair enough, Well, I'm going to introduce the clergy in

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Speaker 2: a moment. First, I want to well, actually I will

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Speaker 2: introduce them, not because I was going to also introduce

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Speaker 2: some some of the spouses of them, and have a

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Speaker 2: few things to say in the beginning. Thank you Elise

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Speaker 2: for your work and making this possible, and this last

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Speaker 2: Sunday of August. Thank you for coming out. If you

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Speaker 2: feel that the summer went particularly fast, raise your hand.

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Speaker 2: If you're thrilled it's over, raise your hand. Why to hot?

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Speaker 2: It stays hot? Believe me, all righty, my friends. Religion

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Speaker 2: on the Line was a program that I did on

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Speaker 2: my prior station, KBC. I am not among those who

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Speaker 2: believes that you can't mention other stations. It's just I

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Speaker 2: love the way on a former station that will go unmentioned.

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Speaker 2: I don't get that. What is the point if I

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Speaker 2: lose you to that station because I mentioned it, than

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Speaker 2: I deserve to have lost you. I was on. I

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Speaker 2: did the show for ten years exactly ten years, August

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Speaker 2: eighty two to August ninety two, and it changed my life.

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Speaker 2: I gave more about this last week because it was

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Speaker 2: the first one, so I'll be very brief. I was

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Speaker 2: very fortunate. It was a godsend in my life to

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Speaker 2: meet the clergy of all faiths, and I mean all faiths,

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Speaker 2: the only faith that I in the world that I

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Speaker 2: know of, I mean, I mean any scientologists. I had

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Speaker 2: Messianic Jews. I had Harry Krishna and his brother Larry Krishna.

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Speaker 2: Every time I say Harry Krishna, I think of h

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Speaker 2: A R R Y. It's as funny anyway now, But

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Speaker 2: just everybody, and of course Catholic Protestant in jew each week,

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Speaker 2: many weeks we had Muslim representatives and it was absolutely

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Speaker 2: it was not only eye opening, it was transformative for me.

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Speaker 2: My motto became after about five years. This was what

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Speaker 2: my motto became. The moment you meet people of other

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Speaker 2: religions that you think are at least as intelligent, at

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Speaker 2: least as decent, and at least as religious as you

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Speaker 2: think you are, your life will never be the same.

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Speaker 2: And that's what happened to me, and so my life

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Speaker 2: was never the same. In fact, it was just the

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Speaker 2: other day. Oh I wish I remember who said this

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Speaker 2: to me, but somebody who I get it all the time.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it was a very popular show and people

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Speaker 2: in LA remember it fondly and I'm associated with it

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Speaker 2: for understandable reasons. Ten years is a lot of time.

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Speaker 2: And somebody met me and said, you know what really

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Speaker 2: impressed me. I mean this was like in a mall.

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Speaker 2: This was not at a party or any in a mall.

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Speaker 2: What I said rot really impressed you. That when the

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Speaker 2: Christians were in trouble, you bailed them out. And I

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Speaker 2: remember that happening because I got I really it was

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Speaker 2: like a doctorate in other faiths, and I really was

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Speaker 2: able to make a good case for faiths that I

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Speaker 2: may not hold entirely, but I always add. You don't

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Speaker 2: know how often the Christians came to the rabbi's aid,

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Speaker 2: you know, Rabbi would be challenged, how can you Jews

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Speaker 2: believe in chosenness? And then you know, the minister would

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Speaker 2: let's say, well, I do, and I'm not Jewish. I

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Speaker 2: think the Jews are chosen and that pretty much knocked

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Speaker 2: the caller, you know out. What's there to say? It

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Speaker 2: can't be all that ethnic chauvinist If a Christian says

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Speaker 2: he believes in it, and you know, and the Christians

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Speaker 2: would get oh, how can you believe that anybody doesn't

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Speaker 2: believe in Christ that does not saved? And I say, hey,

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Speaker 2: they don't think I'm and I have no problem with it.

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Speaker 2: Then what are they going to say? Well, if this

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Speaker 2: Jew has no problem with it, you know, I'll watch baseball.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what they'll do, They'll you know, there's

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Speaker 2: nothing more. So it's it was a very powerful experience.

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Speaker 2: The clergy tonight quite hand picked, are and I have

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Speaker 2: no there's no reason, rhyme or reason to the order

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Speaker 2: except that this is the way I wrote it down

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Speaker 2: in the room. To my right, you're a left. Is

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Speaker 2: that correct? No? It isn't correct. Oh there you are

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Speaker 2: all right to my lob, I'm going to read the

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Speaker 2: sheet down, sorry, from my left, which will work out

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Speaker 2: politically correct if I'm not mistaken. But to your right,

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Speaker 2: which is doctor Edward Hansen, who was pastor of the

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Speaker 2: Hollywood United Methodist Church. And you might know which church

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Speaker 2: we're talking about here because it's got a huge age

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Speaker 2: ribbon on it as you go up up toward the

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Speaker 2: Hollywood Freeways. That correct, pastors, So will you welcome please,

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Speaker 2: Pastor doctor Edward Hanson. Father Gregory Cairo is a capushin

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Speaker 2: Franciscan friar. He is our Roman Catholic priest, Father Gregory,

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Speaker 2: and I go quite far back, though he doesn't look

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Speaker 2: old enough for that to be said, but we do

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Speaker 2: go back many years. And he became so adept at

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Speaker 2: representing his faith that the Archdiocese of Los Angeles in

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Speaker 2: fact hired him for years to be it's a chief spokesman,

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Speaker 2: but he is very happy to be back at Saint

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Speaker 2: Francis High School, where this year he will be teaching

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Speaker 2: morality and sacraments. Will you welcome, Father Gregory Cairo. Rabbi

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Speaker 2: Mordecai Finley is ordained Reform rabbi. His congregation is our

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Speaker 2: Ha Torah Congregation in West Los Angeles, and if you

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Speaker 2: are a Jew in fact any he is welcome, of course,

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Speaker 2: but I go out on a limit telling you it

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Speaker 2: is one of the most wonderful synagogue experiences available. And

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Speaker 2: he is a remarkable rabbi, profoundly intellectually honest, and I

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Speaker 2: am just honored that he accepted the invitation. Rabbi Mordecai Finley.

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Speaker 2: And our other pastor is Glenn Jackson, who is an

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Speaker 2: Evangelical Christian. He is with independent Christian churches, but his

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Speaker 2: specific church is Faith Christian Church in Semi Valley. And

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Speaker 2: I know Pastor Jackson for a number of years because

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Speaker 2: I am honored that he studies with me where I

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Speaker 2: teach the Tora Verse by Verse at the University of Judaism,

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Speaker 2: and has made many probing comments that I have found remarkable.

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Speaker 2: So you welcome, please Pastor Glenn Jacks, we have some

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Speaker 2: we have some spouses here, uh, and I will reserve

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Speaker 2: my own for last. I will begin with two of

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Speaker 2: the clergies and daughters as well. Pastor Jackson's wife, Nikki

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Speaker 2: and daughters Aaron and Ashley are here. Will you please

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Speaker 2: arise Jackson family please, high lady, thank you, thank you

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Speaker 2: for coming. And a woman I know all many years

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Speaker 2: as the wife of Rabbi Mordecai Finlely may Rov is

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Speaker 2: may Rob here. Will you please then? And we could

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Speaker 2: have ut to you, hey, may Rob.

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Speaker 1: This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.

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Speaker 1: Now back to more of Dennis Prager's Timeless Wisdom, and finally.

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Speaker 2: There's a Hebrew statement. A Haron hove the last is

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Speaker 2: the dearest. So I have saved my own wife. Friend,

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Speaker 2: who is here with me today? Friend? Would you please right?

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Speaker 2: All righty everybody? So uh, this is uh, this is

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Speaker 2: the way I chose the clergy. Oh yes, oh, of

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Speaker 2: course you know what I forgot because I didn't see him.

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Speaker 2: He was slinking down. My son, Aaron is here and

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Speaker 2: I am so excited. Eron play Aaron erin. Oh that's

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Speaker 2: the best part. This is not the topic I would

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Speaker 2: have chosen if I knew he came. But what are

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Speaker 2: you gonna do? You can't you can't pick him all

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Speaker 2: the time. Why you know, I finally got him to come. Actually,

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Speaker 2: the family, at least this part of the family. We're

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Speaker 2: headed out to Minnesota, where I'll be broadcasting tomorrow my

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Speaker 2: annual Minnesota State Fair. By the way, I'm supposed to

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Speaker 2: be at the Republican Convention, and they said, but then,

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Speaker 2: you can't go to the Minnesota State Fair. So I said,

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Speaker 2: forget it. I'll go to the Minnesota State Fair. So

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna go to the convention for Wednesday and Thursday

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Speaker 2: if you can get into New York. I don't know

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Speaker 2: if the riots, I mean the demonstrations have started. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: we'll find out. But so I have a very busy week.

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Speaker 3: Obviously, Minnesota is a battleground state, so you're probably more

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Speaker 3: useful there.

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Speaker 4: Anyway, there you go.

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Speaker 2: That's right, And my first guest will be, in fact,

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Speaker 2: a Senator Coleman from Minnesota. Tomorrow, Alan, my producer, is

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Speaker 2: on his way to New York. So it's very complex. Anyway, erin,

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Speaker 2: it is great to have you, and thank you for coming.

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Speaker 2: All right, my friends. Let me tell you a little

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Speaker 2: bit about this, and then we're going to get started.

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Speaker 2: First of all, there's no subject. Let me speak very personally.

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Speaker 2: I have said this for years. No subject period has

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Speaker 2: torn me as much as the subject of homosexuality. Now,

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Speaker 2: three of these clergy are familiar with me, and I

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Speaker 2: am familiar with them. One is not. It's somewhat for

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Speaker 2: his benefit that I'm saying this, But in addition to yours,

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Speaker 2: I have strong positions, but they are not arrived at

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Speaker 2: with ease because I am torn between. I am between

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Speaker 2: standards and compassion. If there's ever an area where standards

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Speaker 2: and compassion are not the same, it is homosexuality. I

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Speaker 2: believe that there are standards for what God wants us

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Speaker 2: to do sexually and maritally, and I also believe that

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Speaker 2: every homosexual is created in God's image every bit as

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Speaker 2: much as every heterosexual. I do not believe that every

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Speaker 2: homosexual has chosen his sexual orientation. I don't believe it's genetic,

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Speaker 2: but I don't believe it's chosen. I don't know, and

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Speaker 2: no one knows. I know the literature very very well.

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Speaker 2: No one knows why people become gay. Get even more complex,

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Speaker 2: there is almost nothing in common. In my opinion, others

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Speaker 2: may differ. This is my opinion. There's very little in

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Speaker 2: common between lesbianism and male homosexuality. Women's sexuality is extremely

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Speaker 2: different from male sexuality. Why women are turned on or

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Speaker 2: attracted sexually to a man or woman, It is far

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Speaker 2: different from men's hardwiring. When gay spokesmen say we can

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Speaker 2: know more change than you heterosexual can. I mean, Dennis,

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Speaker 2: if I told you you had to become attracted to men,

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Speaker 2: be sexually attracted to men, you think you could do it.

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Speaker 2: It's hard for me to imagine. Frankly, it's just you

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Speaker 2: might as well tell me to be attracted to a table.

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Speaker 2: I don't. I have no relation to that word. On

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Speaker 2: the other hand, Uh, this the the governor of New

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Speaker 2: Jersey announces that he is is a gay American. I

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Speaker 2: don't believe that. I believe he's a bisexual American. These

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Speaker 2: things are very very complex, very complex. And uh, then

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Speaker 2: to make it even more complex, I hear that there

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Speaker 2: are people who do change, and it's hard for me

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Speaker 2: to believe. But I can't believe all these these men

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Speaker 2: who say they were gay and now they're married, and

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Speaker 2: and and sexually function with their wives are lying. So

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Speaker 2: I don't I am torn on all of those matters.

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Speaker 2: I am not torn on the heterosexual ideal. I believe

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Speaker 2: that ideally a man and a woman bond get married,

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Speaker 2: and that that that the that the ideal manifestation of

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Speaker 2: human sexuality is hetero sexual marriage, monogamous, heterosexual. That's the ideal.

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Speaker 2: So I wanted clergy, though not to reinforce what I

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Speaker 2: believe they will. There will be one or perhaps two

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Speaker 2: who do. There will be uh, two who don't fully

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Speaker 2: and one who probably doesn't at all. And that's what

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Speaker 2: I That's the way I want. In fact, and Rabbi

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Speaker 2: Finley can testify to this. I called up Rabbi Finley,

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Speaker 2: whom I have such respect for. If I if I

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Speaker 2: talked about, you know, beer making in medieval Germany, I

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Speaker 2: would invite him and uh attend you would he would

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Speaker 2: sample that's right and German together about the hair, right exactly?

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Speaker 2: You know to your German there's no comparison, So I said,

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Speaker 2: I said, Mordecai, Uh, what's your position on homosexuality and religion?

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Speaker 2: And and if if if I got this wrong, but

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Speaker 2: the gist of it was well Dennis. The truth is

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Speaker 2: I'm quite torn. I said, good, you're the man. He

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Speaker 2: expected me to say, you know a lot, we'll do

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Speaker 2: another subject, but I said, no, No, that's exactly what

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Speaker 2: I want is a thoughtful person who does see the

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Speaker 2: arguments on both sides. That's exactly what I wanted. And

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Speaker 2: we called up Pastor Hanson. Church is known for its

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Speaker 2: AIDS outreach and its outreach to gay people, so obviously

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Speaker 2: he comes from a different perspective, and I wanted that.

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Speaker 2: Father Kor and I didn't speak about it, but I

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Speaker 2: assume representing the church's position, I think that it'll have

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Speaker 2: a traditional view, but it'll be very interesting to hear.

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Speaker 2: And I know that Pastor Jackson will represent the evangelical

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Speaker 2: biblical view as they understand it. So let me begin

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Speaker 2: therefore with I mean, it's so complex, gentlemen, that it's

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Speaker 2: going to be hard for you not to speak a

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Speaker 2: long time. You're all thoughtful, and you all have a

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Speaker 2: lot to say so, but I am going to put

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Speaker 2: you on the spot with an opening summary statement, and

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Speaker 2: the question on the table is do you believe that

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Speaker 2: God and or your religion has an ideal to which

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Speaker 2: we should aspire in sexual matters. Okay, we'll go from

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Speaker 2: there to more and more will narrow it each time.

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Speaker 2: If I stop you, it's never because you're not good

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Speaker 2: or interesting, but because the time is a real factor.

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Speaker 2: What do you believe your religion and your God's ideal

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Speaker 2: is vis a vi human sexuality? Does anybody want to

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Speaker 2: begin or should I? Rabbi Finley, I.

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Speaker 5: Think it's pretty clear from a reading of Jewish sources

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Speaker 5: that the ideal in Jewish law and Jewish norms is

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Speaker 5: a monogamous, heterosexual.

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Speaker 2: Procreative marriage. Okay, that's fast. No, No, that's great, that's great.

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Speaker 2: Could believe me. We'll We'll have a lot to talk

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Speaker 2: about now, and I'll just pick fall the choiro.

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Speaker 6: I agree with what Rabbi Finley said, and so does

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Speaker 6: the Catholic Church. Okay, these guys are really brief. All right,

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Speaker 6: let's go to doctor Hanson.

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Speaker 7: I think I think I cannot be quite so brief.

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Speaker 2: That's okay.

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Speaker 7: I think that the ideal that God has for us

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Speaker 7: has to do with the quality of loving, caring, committed relationships.

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Speaker 7: That the ideal for a heterosexual couple clearly is for

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Speaker 7: them to be in a loving, caring, committed joyful relationship

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Speaker 7: as a heterosexual couple, but that ideal does not apply

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Speaker 7: to same gender couples. For them, the ideal is to

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Speaker 7: have a joyous and loving, committed relationship that fits for them,

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Speaker 7: because it seems God didn't see fit to create everybody

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Speaker 7: just the same, and so that there can't be just

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Speaker 7: one ideal that's related to just a certain group of people.

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Speaker 7: The ideal has to relate to all of God's children,

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Speaker 7: and so that ideal has to relate to these qualities

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Speaker 7: of a relationship and not be limited to heterosexuals.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, And obviously we'll return to that. And finally,

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Speaker 2: Pastor Jackson.

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Speaker 3: Well, Deuteronomy says in the witness of two or three

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Speaker 3: it shall be established. So that makes three of us

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Speaker 3: that would accept Genesis and out of the Old Testament.

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Speaker 3: And Jesus comments on marriage in Matthew nineteen, who quotes

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Speaker 3: basically Genesis too that a man and a woman shall

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Speaker 3: leave and cleave, and the two shall become one. So

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Speaker 3: I would say that marriage is a man and a woman.

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Speaker 4: Sex is a man and a woman within the context

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Speaker 4: of marriage.

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Speaker 1: This episode of timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.

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Speaker 1: Now back to more of Dennis Prager's timeless wisdom.

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Speaker 2: How do let me go to a Rabbi Findley? Because

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Speaker 2: you're you're the stated to me, you're torn attitude too.

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Speaker 2: You were quite adamant about the ideal. Where is your tear?

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Speaker 5: Well, I would disagree with doctor Hanson that that an

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Speaker 5: ideal has to therefore has to encompass within it every

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Speaker 5: person or every possibility that does not conform with the ideal.

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Speaker 5: So I'm torn that well, I do believe there's an ideal. Meaning,

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Speaker 5: if one of my children were to come to me

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Speaker 5: and say, I think I'm bisexual, do you care which

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Speaker 5: way I go?

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Speaker 2: I would care.

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Speaker 5: I would say, well, if you're bisexual, and you can choose,

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Speaker 5: I prefer you not be bisexual. I prefer you not

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Speaker 5: be homosexual. I would prefer you to be a heterosexual

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Speaker 5: person that gets married and has appropreated family. So I'm

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Speaker 5: not indifferent to it. So that's the ideal. If a

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Speaker 5: person said to me, I'm not able to do that,

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Speaker 5: either through nurturing, wiring, or whatever, I'm not able to

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Speaker 5: engage in a heterosexual monogamous relationship, then I would ask

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Speaker 5: myself what degree of holiness and goodness and humanity can

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Speaker 5: be affirmed in the context in which they're living. So

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Speaker 5: as a clergy person who believes, as Dennis said, they

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Speaker 5: were all created in God's image, that that all there seems.

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Speaker 5: It seems that many different sexual styles are natural, meaning

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Speaker 5: that we're born with possibility, and that Biblical Judaism has

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Speaker 5: and Rabbinic Judaism has decided on one. We can't ignore

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Speaker 5: the nature of people who don't conform to that ideal.

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Speaker 5: We have to address their sexuality seriously. So I don't

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Speaker 5: ignore them. I don't want to diminish their humanity. But

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Speaker 5: at the same time, I don't want to back away

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Speaker 5: from my ideal because there are exceptions to the ideal.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Hanson, how do you react to that? Or let

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Speaker 2: me let me, let me make it a little easier.

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Speaker 2: Not easier, but clear they've cited biblical texts to support

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Speaker 2: the idea of a heterosexual ideal. What do you have

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Speaker 2: to support your ideal that it doesn't matter if it's heterosexual,

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Speaker 2: so long as it's loving.

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Speaker 7: I think that I speak out of the context of

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Speaker 7: being a Christian follower of Christ pastor who is serving

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Speaker 7: a very diverse congregation of people, and my understanding of

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Speaker 7: who this Christ is is that he invited us to

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Speaker 7: tune in to where God's spirit is at work in

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Speaker 7: our lives. And Paul expounded on the signs of God's

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Speaker 7: spirit of love, peace, patients, kindness, and so on, and

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Speaker 7: so invited us to go deeper than a law, but

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Speaker 7: to seek what is really the purpose of law, which

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Speaker 7: has to do with how we live together and treat

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Speaker 7: one another. So I think I would turn to the

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Speaker 7: authority of the spirit of Christ, which I think calls

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Speaker 7: us to have a much more embracing love than we

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Speaker 7: tend to have when we are legalistic. And it is

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Speaker 7: out of that spirit of love, and consequently also knowing

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Speaker 7: a lot of gay and lesbian people and serving them

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Speaker 7: as pastor, that I would say that God's ideal for

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Speaker 7: human beings is very diverse when you look at the individuals,

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Speaker 7: but speaks of this kind of fulfilling the potentials that

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Speaker 7: God has placed in each individual and in relationships of

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Speaker 7: love and respect and honoring and caring. And so I

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Speaker 7: would make it in that broader, more universal context than

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Speaker 7: saying that it has to fit just one rigid idea.

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Speaker 2: Pastor. Can I respond to that, Yes, I just want

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Speaker 2: to ask a question and don't forget your response just

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Speaker 2: on the world legalistic? Are you legalistic on polygamy?

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Speaker 7: Well, I mean I think that polygamy, what we know

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Speaker 7: about it, I would the simple answer is no. But

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Speaker 7: I would tell you why.

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Speaker 1: That.

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Speaker 7: The simple answer would be that we are invited to

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Speaker 7: each of us honor and respect one another in a

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Speaker 7: way that affirms the wholeness of a person in polygamy.

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Speaker 7: Although it was well, you know, practiced in the times

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Speaker 7: of the Hebrew Scripture certainly, and in other parts of

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Speaker 7: the world, yet today it seems from our experience to

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Speaker 7: not offer the fullness of that kind of relationship when

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Speaker 7: there are several women and one man, and that I

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Speaker 7: know there are some Mormons that might disagree, and some

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Speaker 7: that have voiced that. My own sense is that it

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Speaker 7: would have to pass the test of Is it in

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Speaker 7: fact calling each person to the fullness of who they

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Speaker 7: might be as the greatest expression of love?

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Speaker 2: Pastor Jackson?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, The Bible New Testament says that Jesus was full

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Speaker 3: of grace and truth. There's nobody that I know of

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Speaker 3: that loved people more than he did, and yet he

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Speaker 3: had a perfect standard. And one illustration of that, and

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Speaker 3: the Gospel of John he met a woman who was

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Speaker 3: caught in adultery, and he didn't reach down and said, well,

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Speaker 3: do you love him? He forgave her, but then he

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Speaker 3: said go and send no more.

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Speaker 4: So he practiced love.

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Speaker 3: But then he also kept the standard that was what

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Speaker 3: the Old Testament had, which was your relationship is wrong,

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Speaker 3: even if you care about that individual.

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Speaker 7: On the other hand, the law would have required that

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Speaker 7: she be stoned to death, and he didn't see fit

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Speaker 7: to have that law fulfilled. Instead, there was is grace, right.

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Speaker 3: But within grace, he also re established the law that

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Speaker 3: her relationship in that case adulter situation was a sin

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Speaker 3: and she needed to stop it.

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Speaker 7: Sure, and we can talk about why that was a

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Speaker 7: sin and.

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Speaker 4: How because it violated the scriptures, we'll see.

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Speaker 7: I would look deeper than that, and I would say, well,

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Speaker 7: what is it about it that makes it a sin?

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Speaker 4: And I think it's the.

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Speaker 7: Way that it degrades human beings and the way it

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Speaker 7: doesn't honor and respect others and isn't representative of this

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Speaker 7: kind of respect.

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Speaker 2: And care that we should have for one another.

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Speaker 7: I think that's what Christ called us to do, was

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Speaker 7: to go beyond the letter of the law to the

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Speaker 7: spirit and that's what I think we often failed to

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Speaker 7: do when we relate to people who are gay or lesbian.

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Speaker 3: Well, the Book of Judges ends with every man does

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Speaker 3: that which is right in his own mind, her own heart,

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Speaker 3: and if we are all allowed to decide, well, this

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Speaker 3: is a loving relationship. I mean, what if Governor McGreevey said,

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Speaker 3: you know, I love my wife, but I love my

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Speaker 3: lover too, and so I'm going to marry both of them.

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Speaker 4: Would you stop that?

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Speaker 7: Would you say that it's not it's not just his decision,

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Speaker 7: it's the decision of each person that is involved.

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Speaker 4: And well, what if all three of them said that

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Speaker 4: was okay?

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Speaker 7: Well, I can't imagine that. It's a hypothetical. I've not

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Speaker 7: run into that kind of a situation.

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Speaker 4: I haven't seen her walk out on him.

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Speaker 7: Well, I think that I think the that we're not

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Speaker 7: just saying that there's no guidelines here. I mean, clearly,

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Speaker 7: there are guidelines, and those guidelines are reflected very clearly

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Speaker 7: in the scriptures and what Paul has to say about

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Speaker 7: the fruit of the spirit and what Jesus taught. And

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Speaker 7: so I would be seeking to look for where those

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Speaker 7: where the fruit of the spirit is revealed in that

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Speaker 7: kind of a.

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Speaker 2: If a congregant came to you and said he was

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Speaker 2: bisexual or she, and since we don't believe and you

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Speaker 2: don't believe, pastor in polygamy, Pastor, I need your advice

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Speaker 2: as my Christian pastor. Yes, should I try to fall

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Speaker 2: in love? I'm a woman, I'm bisexual. Should I try

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Speaker 2: to fall in love with a man?

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Speaker 8: Or?

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Speaker 2: Does it not matter the sex so long as it's love.

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Speaker 7: You know, it's interesting that the gay people I know

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Speaker 7: and the bisexual people I know, you know, it doesn't

429
00:27:52,340 --> 00:27:56,260
Speaker 7: make life easier to discover that you're gay or bisexual.

430
00:27:57,260 --> 00:27:58,179
Speaker 2: In this society.

431
00:27:58,459 --> 00:28:02,220
Speaker 7: There is so much prejudice against being gay or bisexual.

432
00:28:02,899 --> 00:28:06,139
Speaker 7: If you can make a heterosexual adjustment, be happy, happen

433
00:28:06,219 --> 00:28:08,859
Speaker 7: to meet the person of your dreams and fulfill a

434
00:28:08,939 --> 00:28:11,979
Speaker 7: life together with a person of the opposite sex. You

435
00:28:12,060 --> 00:28:16,139
Speaker 7: know who would want to choose any different than that, But.

436
00:28:16,219 --> 00:28:19,619
Speaker 2: You would offer no preference as a Christian minister. If

437
00:28:19,659 --> 00:28:23,420
Speaker 2: you could love, I don't care which one you fall

438
00:28:23,500 --> 00:28:25,259
Speaker 2: in love with is as long as it's loving. That

439
00:28:25,300 --> 00:28:26,419
Speaker 2: would be your position.

440
00:28:26,859 --> 00:28:29,980
Speaker 7: I would ask them to talk with me about where

441
00:28:30,060 --> 00:28:33,060
Speaker 7: their own inclinations are and what their hopes and dreams

442
00:28:33,100 --> 00:28:35,299
Speaker 7: are and if they hope to have children, if they

443
00:28:35,340 --> 00:28:37,019
Speaker 7: hope to have a family, if they would like the

444
00:28:37,100 --> 00:28:40,620
Speaker 7: blessing of their family and relatives and loved ones, I'd

445
00:28:40,660 --> 00:28:43,860
Speaker 7: be inviting them to discern where in fact they feel

446
00:28:43,940 --> 00:28:47,739
Speaker 7: led in this, and to certainly if they have the choice,

447
00:28:48,140 --> 00:28:50,099
Speaker 7: to choose that which is going to be the greatest

448
00:28:50,140 --> 00:28:53,940
Speaker 7: blessing in their life. Most people I talk with don't

449
00:28:54,020 --> 00:28:54,940
Speaker 7: have that clear.

450
00:28:54,820 --> 00:29:00,820
Speaker 2: Of a choice. Yeah, all right, well it's probably true

451
00:29:00,860 --> 00:29:04,420
Speaker 2: a lot of people don't. But I was hoping you'd say, look,

452
00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:07,180
Speaker 2: if it really is fifty to fifty for that bisexual

453
00:29:07,780 --> 00:29:10,820
Speaker 2: wanting my advice, I would say, look, all things being equal,

454
00:29:11,459 --> 00:29:13,380
Speaker 2: As a Christian, I have to say, try to find

455
00:29:13,420 --> 00:29:18,700
Speaker 2: a man. But it's not something he would feel comfortable saying. Go,

456
00:29:18,860 --> 00:29:21,540
Speaker 2: let me go to the priest and rabbi from would

457
00:29:21,580 --> 00:29:26,019
Speaker 2: you do any ceremony with the same sex couple in

458
00:29:26,060 --> 00:29:27,020
Speaker 2: the name of Judaism.

459
00:29:28,700 --> 00:29:33,340
Speaker 5: It's tough for me because there's not only a question

460
00:29:33,420 --> 00:29:36,860
Speaker 5: of theology and practice, but it's also a question of culture.

461
00:29:37,940 --> 00:29:39,660
Speaker 5: So when a person says to me, will you do

462
00:29:39,780 --> 00:29:43,540
Speaker 5: my ceremony, then, in a sense, what they're asking me

463
00:29:44,180 --> 00:29:47,180
Speaker 5: will I affirm a state about which I'm torn, but

464
00:29:47,300 --> 00:29:49,180
Speaker 5: it also means they're typically part of my life, part

465
00:29:49,219 --> 00:29:52,780
Speaker 5: of my congregation. And what I've noticed as a congregational

466
00:29:52,900 --> 00:29:59,100
Speaker 5: rabbi is that not every community can can assimilate every

467
00:29:59,340 --> 00:30:02,260
Speaker 5: you know, every possibility of human interaction.

468
00:30:03,340 --> 00:30:05,100
Speaker 2: So I'm not saying no.

469
00:30:05,300 --> 00:30:08,260
Speaker 5: What I'm saying is there are so many other factors

470
00:30:08,300 --> 00:30:11,380
Speaker 5: at play that I don't find myself faced with it.

471
00:30:11,459 --> 00:30:13,660
Speaker 5: I'm not one of the rabbis who openly says yes,

472
00:30:13,700 --> 00:30:16,740
Speaker 5: and therefore I don't attract people. I focus my congregation

473
00:30:16,860 --> 00:30:21,140
Speaker 5: on the ideal of monogamous, procreative, heterosexual relationship between two

474
00:30:21,140 --> 00:30:23,180
Speaker 5: people in the building, a family. Those who are looking

475
00:30:23,219 --> 00:30:26,299
Speaker 5: for a rabbi who does gay affirming ceremonies will typically

476
00:30:26,340 --> 00:30:29,900
Speaker 5: go to another rabbi. If I here's the question, if

477
00:30:29,940 --> 00:30:33,860
Speaker 5: I were the only rabbi in Boise, Idaho, where actually

478
00:30:33,900 --> 00:30:38,019
Speaker 5: was the only rabbi for a while, I had a

479
00:30:38,060 --> 00:30:39,900
Speaker 5: student pulpit in Boise, Idaho. I used to fly up

480
00:30:39,900 --> 00:30:41,459
Speaker 5: once a month, and I was the only rabbi for

481
00:30:41,500 --> 00:30:44,020
Speaker 5: the fifty or sixty Jewish families in Boise, And there

482
00:30:44,100 --> 00:30:46,180
Speaker 5: was people who are part of the congregation they supported,

483
00:30:46,260 --> 00:30:49,180
Speaker 5: they attended, and they wanted some kind of a ceremony.

484
00:30:49,219 --> 00:30:51,060
Speaker 5: It would be a very different question for me. But

485
00:30:51,140 --> 00:30:52,980
Speaker 5: I haven't been forced with a question, and I don't

486
00:30:53,340 --> 00:30:58,540
Speaker 5: like to offer artificial answers that I haven't really worked through,

487
00:30:58,660 --> 00:31:02,900
Speaker 5: both theologically with God and with my wrestling with the tradition.

488
00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:05,979
Speaker 5: So I'll go back to my initial statement with you,

489
00:31:06,140 --> 00:31:06,660
Speaker 5: is I'm torn.

490
00:31:06,739 --> 00:31:08,340
Speaker 2: I'm not sure. It would depend on the case and

491
00:31:08,420 --> 00:31:14,019
Speaker 2: my own life circumstances fall Vick Gregory. Those who argue

492
00:31:14,380 --> 00:31:17,460
Speaker 2: a more liberal position will say that, you know, why

493
00:31:17,500 --> 00:31:21,940
Speaker 2: are you religious people picking on us gays? Even if

494
00:31:21,979 --> 00:31:24,420
Speaker 2: you hold that it's a sin based on Leviticus, and

495
00:31:24,500 --> 00:31:27,019
Speaker 2: we're going to get to Leviticus. But even if you

496
00:31:27,140 --> 00:31:29,579
Speaker 2: hold that, I mean, there are a lot of sins.

497
00:31:31,100 --> 00:31:34,540
Speaker 2: Why that sin? And my question is do you think

498
00:31:34,700 --> 00:31:37,460
Speaker 2: that that sin should be isolated or is no more

499
00:31:37,620 --> 00:31:41,219
Speaker 2: serious or less serious than any other sins that might

500
00:31:41,300 --> 00:31:43,540
Speaker 2: be listed in the older New Testament?

501
00:31:44,900 --> 00:31:47,540
Speaker 9: Well, I think that raises a larger question with regard

502
00:31:47,580 --> 00:31:52,019
Speaker 9: to human sexuality in general. I've often felt that the

503
00:31:52,140 --> 00:31:57,499
Speaker 9: reaction within Catholicism towards sexual sins has been somewhat overwrought,

504
00:31:58,060 --> 00:32:02,660
Speaker 9: in say, the last fifty years. But I think that's

505
00:32:02,739 --> 00:32:07,180
Speaker 9: been accompanied by changes in sexual moras in society at

506
00:32:07,260 --> 00:32:10,940
Speaker 9: large that almost demanded that the church make a response.

507
00:32:11,219 --> 00:32:13,060
Speaker 9: It's sort of like which came first, the chicken or

508
00:32:13,100 --> 00:32:17,220
Speaker 9: the egg, people's preoccupation with sex or the church's preoccupation

509
00:32:17,380 --> 00:32:22,420
Speaker 9: with people's preoccupation with sex. And so try and answer

510
00:32:22,459 --> 00:32:24,620
Speaker 9: that question. Then, I think is you know, it's a

511
00:32:24,700 --> 00:32:28,540
Speaker 9: dead end. But are sexual sins the worst sins that

512
00:32:28,620 --> 00:32:29,420
Speaker 9: people can commit?

513
00:32:29,540 --> 00:32:29,580
Speaker 4: No?

514
00:32:30,140 --> 00:32:34,340
Speaker 9: Are they serious sins, yes, but sins against justice, sins

515
00:32:34,380 --> 00:32:41,180
Speaker 9: against charity, sins such as various forms of prejudice, racism, sexism,

516
00:32:41,219 --> 00:32:43,860
Speaker 9: and so forth, these can be far greater sins than

517
00:32:44,020 --> 00:32:50,140
Speaker 9: sins against the virtue of chastity. There's no way mitigates

518
00:32:50,260 --> 00:32:52,779
Speaker 9: or negates the teaching of the Church that all of

519
00:32:52,860 --> 00:32:56,700
Speaker 9: us are called to be chased. For married people, that

520
00:32:56,979 --> 00:33:02,100
Speaker 9: means faithful monogamy. For unmarried people, that means abstinence from

521
00:33:02,300 --> 00:33:07,820
Speaker 9: genital sexual activity. It's an ideal that I think we

522
00:33:07,900 --> 00:33:11,259
Speaker 9: all know is very easy to violate. And so I

523
00:33:11,340 --> 00:33:15,219
Speaker 9: think in our pastoral approach to people who commit sexual sins,

524
00:33:15,300 --> 00:33:21,180
Speaker 9: whether heterosexual, homosexual, solitary, sins against sexuality, that the pastoral

525
00:33:21,219 --> 00:33:25,580
Speaker 9: approach is to be as understanding and as compassionate as

526
00:33:25,700 --> 00:33:28,380
Speaker 9: Jesus was in the case of the woman caught in adultery,

527
00:33:28,820 --> 00:33:32,740
Speaker 9: yet not to backtrack on standards and say, oh, well,

528
00:33:32,780 --> 00:33:35,340
Speaker 9: that's okay. Oh no, it's not okay. It's an issue

529
00:33:35,380 --> 00:33:37,580
Speaker 9: that we all have to deal with, and the idea

530
00:33:37,700 --> 00:33:41,900
Speaker 9: of being chased is that we try to master our

531
00:33:41,940 --> 00:33:44,420
Speaker 9: sexuality so that it doesn't master us.

532
00:33:45,100 --> 00:33:47,100
Speaker 2: Doctor Hanson. And I'm sorry to pick on you, but

533
00:33:47,219 --> 00:33:49,900
Speaker 2: you do represent the minority position here, though not the

534
00:33:49,940 --> 00:33:56,499
Speaker 2: minority position. You know, in every locale there are places

535
00:33:56,540 --> 00:34:00,340
Speaker 2: where clearly these other clergy positions would be the minority.

536
00:34:00,979 --> 00:34:03,460
Speaker 2: But when you hear them, and you've heard this obviously

537
00:34:03,540 --> 00:34:06,860
Speaker 2: what they say many times, I'm certain, do you think

538
00:34:06,900 --> 00:34:08,899
Speaker 2: that they are reading scripture wrong?

539
00:34:12,300 --> 00:34:17,860
Speaker 7: That's an important question. I think it's that we're reading

540
00:34:17,940 --> 00:34:25,259
Speaker 7: scripture differently sometimes, and that in fact, probably each of

541
00:34:25,380 --> 00:34:30,019
Speaker 7: us has our own particular way of choosing that which

542
00:34:30,140 --> 00:34:33,020
Speaker 7: is most appealing to us in scripture and that with

543
00:34:33,180 --> 00:34:35,340
Speaker 7: which we are most uncomfortable.

544
00:34:37,420 --> 00:34:39,379
Speaker 4: Today, our Sunday.

545
00:34:39,060 --> 00:34:41,660
Speaker 7: School class was looking at Psalm one hundred and thirty seven,

546
00:34:41,819 --> 00:34:44,740
Speaker 7: which is the was made part of it was chosen

547
00:34:44,819 --> 00:34:47,140
Speaker 7: for a song and a godspell on the willows.

548
00:34:47,219 --> 00:34:50,339
Speaker 2: There was the name of it. But it ends with the.

549
00:34:50,339 --> 00:34:55,059
Speaker 7: People have been taken into captivity, into Babylon, and they're

550
00:34:55,900 --> 00:35:00,899
Speaker 7: grieving desperately for their beloved city of Jerusalem and of

551
00:35:01,060 --> 00:35:05,980
Speaker 7: Mount Zion. And they end with saying, how happy are

552
00:35:06,060 --> 00:35:09,380
Speaker 7: those who take little Babylonian babies and dash their heads

553
00:35:09,460 --> 00:35:13,860
Speaker 7: against the rocks? Well, I mean that's a heartfelt feeling.

554
00:35:13,980 --> 00:35:17,819
Speaker 7: It's not a text that I would normally use in

555
00:35:17,940 --> 00:35:25,900
Speaker 7: a sermon, so it's one of those that I wouldn't put.

556
00:35:25,779 --> 00:35:26,739
Speaker 2: As much emphasis on.

557
00:35:26,859 --> 00:35:30,980
Speaker 7: But I mean, clearly, there's the Book of Galatians and

558
00:35:31,020 --> 00:35:34,060
Speaker 7: the New Testament, Paul's Letter to the Galatians, and is

559
00:35:34,100 --> 00:35:37,580
Speaker 7: speaking of freedom and the fruit of the spirit. I

560
00:35:37,660 --> 00:35:40,860
Speaker 7: mean that can be very important to me, that message.

561
00:35:40,980 --> 00:35:45,460
Speaker 7: And so where I might be drawn towards certain parts

562
00:35:45,500 --> 00:35:48,499
Speaker 7: of scripture that speak most powerfully to me, someone else

563
00:35:48,580 --> 00:35:51,340
Speaker 7: might be drawn toward other parts of scripture that speak

564
00:35:51,420 --> 00:35:56,260
Speaker 7: more to them. There is another difference though. Sometimes people

565
00:35:56,339 --> 00:36:00,700
Speaker 7: want to say that scripture is without error, that it

566
00:36:00,859 --> 00:36:04,620
Speaker 7: is God's word, as if God had dictated it, and

567
00:36:05,700 --> 00:36:09,020
Speaker 7: that it needs to be taken literally, and when they

568
00:36:09,140 --> 00:36:13,580
Speaker 7: have that perspective, I think that sometimes there's an ignorance

569
00:36:13,660 --> 00:36:17,020
Speaker 7: of all of the inconsistencies and contradictions that are actually

570
00:36:17,180 --> 00:36:21,300
Speaker 7: present in scripture. And I wonder, how can they hold

571
00:36:21,380 --> 00:36:23,940
Speaker 7: a position like that. Have they just not read it,

572
00:36:24,180 --> 00:36:26,899
Speaker 7: you know, or what you know? Because it's also there.

573
00:36:27,420 --> 00:36:29,180
Speaker 2: You want to give an example of one of those,

574
00:36:29,219 --> 00:36:31,060
Speaker 2: and I'll have some of the clergy response.

575
00:36:31,299 --> 00:36:34,019
Speaker 7: Well, if you look at the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke,

576
00:36:34,060 --> 00:36:36,020
Speaker 7: and John, for example, if you just look at the

577
00:36:36,100 --> 00:36:41,180
Speaker 7: resurrection stories as to what women were present and what

578
00:36:41,380 --> 00:36:44,660
Speaker 7: they did at the tomb, and how many angels were there,

579
00:36:44,700 --> 00:36:47,300
Speaker 7: and whether the angels were inside, whether there's one angel

580
00:36:47,420 --> 00:36:50,979
Speaker 7: or two angels. I mean, there's there's differences in each

581
00:36:51,020 --> 00:36:53,180
Speaker 7: of those reports as to what it was. You can

582
00:36:53,259 --> 00:36:55,939
Speaker 7: look at this for yourself. Or if you look at

583
00:36:56,660 --> 00:36:59,819
Speaker 7: you look at the instruction that Jesus gives, Jesus says,

584
00:36:59,859 --> 00:37:02,500
Speaker 7: you know, wait in Jerusalem. No, Jesus says, go and

585
00:37:02,660 --> 00:37:06,379
Speaker 7: meet me in the Galilee, you know. And so you

586
00:37:07,020 --> 00:37:11,860
Speaker 7: have those kinds of contradictions in scripture. I mean, certainly

587
00:37:12,060 --> 00:37:15,580
Speaker 7: because of different sources, you have also some contradictions in

588
00:37:15,660 --> 00:37:19,860
Speaker 7: the Old Testament. But I mean those are not troubling

589
00:37:19,980 --> 00:37:24,620
Speaker 7: to me, and because I'm really looking at scripture with

590
00:37:24,739 --> 00:37:26,819
Speaker 7: a view to what is where do we really see

591
00:37:26,859 --> 00:37:30,100
Speaker 7: the evidence of God's spirit that's at work here, that

592
00:37:30,219 --> 00:37:33,540
Speaker 7: gets reflected in what the people of the Bible have

593
00:37:33,660 --> 00:37:36,299
Speaker 7: written and shared, and that's been passed down and been

594
00:37:36,380 --> 00:37:40,499
Speaker 7: lifted up as sacred. And so that's what I'm doing.

595
00:37:40,620 --> 00:37:42,779
Speaker 7: And so other people do it differently, and.

596
00:37:44,420 --> 00:37:45,060
Speaker 2: I don't.

597
00:37:46,339 --> 00:37:49,140
Speaker 7: Feel like they're necessarily wrong, but they're looking at it

598
00:37:49,259 --> 00:37:51,460
Speaker 7: with a different view, and that that's okay.

599
00:37:52,460 --> 00:37:55,180
Speaker 2: Okay, Well you don't think it's okay. I mean, well,

600
00:37:55,219 --> 00:37:58,100
Speaker 2: part of you both can Yeah, you both can't be right.

601
00:37:58,219 --> 00:38:00,819
Speaker 2: I mean there are mutually exclusive things. But let let's

602
00:38:00,900 --> 00:38:04,380
Speaker 2: let Pastor Jackson, what do you do with those discrepancies

603
00:38:04,420 --> 00:38:05,739
Speaker 2: in the New Testament that think, Well.

604
00:38:05,700 --> 00:38:06,899
Speaker 4: I don't think there are discrepancies.

605
00:38:06,940 --> 00:38:10,299
Speaker 3: I think any anytime you have someone observing a historical event,

606
00:38:10,339 --> 00:38:13,299
Speaker 3: you're always going to get different perspectives. I don't know

607
00:38:13,299 --> 00:38:15,100
Speaker 3: if there's any reporters here, but let's say the La

608
00:38:15,180 --> 00:38:16,660
Speaker 3: Times is here and they say, well, there were five

609
00:38:16,739 --> 00:38:19,460
Speaker 3: pastors at this meeting, and the Daily News says you know,

610
00:38:19,500 --> 00:38:22,299
Speaker 3: there was three hundred people there. Now, if you just

611
00:38:22,380 --> 00:38:24,739
Speaker 3: put those in a time capsule and in one hundred

612
00:38:24,819 --> 00:38:28,339
Speaker 3: years get them out, they'll say, man, one of those

613
00:38:28,339 --> 00:38:29,060
Speaker 3: people is wrong.

614
00:38:29,420 --> 00:38:30,539
Speaker 4: Well, there's not one of them wrong.

615
00:38:30,620 --> 00:38:34,299
Speaker 3: One was looking specifically at the up here. One was

616
00:38:34,339 --> 00:38:36,259
Speaker 3: looking at the total crowd. And if you go through

617
00:38:36,299 --> 00:38:40,540
Speaker 3: the especially the Gospel of Mark, Mark always chooses to

618
00:38:40,660 --> 00:38:44,859
Speaker 3: emphasize the singular individual who was being spoken to or

619
00:38:44,940 --> 00:38:49,020
Speaker 3: who spoke illustration. There was an individual who was demon possessed.

620
00:38:49,060 --> 00:38:51,339
Speaker 3: In one of the other gospels, there was two of them,

621
00:38:51,380 --> 00:38:54,339
Speaker 3: but in Mark there's one. And that's because Jesus Mark

622
00:38:54,420 --> 00:38:57,540
Speaker 3: always records the individual who was being spoken to, But

623
00:38:58,259 --> 00:39:00,660
Speaker 3: sometimes the other gospels will emphasize the whole crowd.

624
00:39:01,299 --> 00:39:02,580
Speaker 4: So I don't think that's the contradiction.

625
00:39:03,700 --> 00:39:06,980
Speaker 3: Let me just add this also, I happen to believe

626
00:39:07,100 --> 00:39:10,779
Speaker 3: that God actually has the ability to reveal himself, both

627
00:39:10,819 --> 00:39:17,739
Speaker 3: in person and in writing. When the decision on abortion

628
00:39:18,620 --> 00:39:21,140
Speaker 3: was made by the Supreme Court, they said they found

629
00:39:21,180 --> 00:39:24,140
Speaker 3: the right to privacy and the prenumbrums, which is basically

630
00:39:24,339 --> 00:39:28,219
Speaker 3: between the lines. And if you take the Bible and say,

631
00:39:28,259 --> 00:39:30,739
Speaker 3: you know what I'm going to read between the lines,

632
00:39:31,380 --> 00:39:33,620
Speaker 3: you can come up with all kinds of amazing things.

633
00:39:35,219 --> 00:39:36,379
Speaker 4: And that's why the Bible.

634
00:39:36,140 --> 00:39:39,740
Speaker 3: Says to study yourself, to study to show yourself approved

635
00:39:39,779 --> 00:39:41,340
Speaker 3: a workman that needs not be ashamed.

636
00:39:41,739 --> 00:39:45,180
Speaker 4: Rightly dividing the will of the scriptures.

637
00:39:45,219 --> 00:39:47,100
Speaker 3: And so God wants us to study the scriptures. Now,

638
00:39:47,779 --> 00:39:49,819
Speaker 3: you know, we do have to look at culture and

639
00:39:50,620 --> 00:39:53,740
Speaker 3: all of those different things. But I happen to believe

640
00:39:53,779 --> 00:39:56,700
Speaker 3: that God not only has the capacity to reveal.

641
00:39:56,420 --> 00:39:57,420
Speaker 4: Himself, but to keep it.

642
00:39:58,100 --> 00:40:01,339
Speaker 1: This episode of timeless wisdom will continue right after this.

643
00:40:06,940 --> 00:40:10,500
Speaker 1: Now back to more of Dennis Praeger's timeless wisdom.

644
00:40:11,700 --> 00:40:15,460
Speaker 2: All right, let's get those specifics. What biblically suggests to

645
00:40:15,580 --> 00:40:19,140
Speaker 2: those of you who believe that human sexuality must be

646
00:40:19,219 --> 00:40:23,380
Speaker 2: expressed heterosexually. What in the scripture tells you that. Rabbi

647
00:40:23,460 --> 00:40:25,219
Speaker 2: Finley well, first.

648
00:40:24,980 --> 00:40:29,580
Speaker 5: Of all, as a Rabbinic Jew, it's not just biblical scripture.

649
00:40:29,620 --> 00:40:32,180
Speaker 5: So we have the verses in the Viticus chapter eighteen,

650
00:40:32,219 --> 00:40:36,100
Speaker 5: the Vidicus chapter twenty that says specifically that men should

651
00:40:36,819 --> 00:40:39,259
Speaker 5: the implication of the verse, men should not have intercourse

652
00:40:39,940 --> 00:40:42,500
Speaker 5: with men like they have intercourse with women. I'm paraphrasing

653
00:40:42,540 --> 00:40:45,580
Speaker 5: the text, they're very meager verses. So if one were

654
00:40:45,739 --> 00:40:47,660
Speaker 5: to take all the verses in the Torah about that,

655
00:40:47,739 --> 00:40:50,620
Speaker 5: there are actually not very many. So one then has

656
00:40:50,660 --> 00:40:53,779
Speaker 5: to go to rabbinic and then the codification of Jewish law,

657
00:40:53,900 --> 00:40:57,059
Speaker 5: where you have laws of the laws of Eatsurabia, which

658
00:40:57,140 --> 00:41:00,660
Speaker 5: is prohibited sexual relations. It's very clear in rabbinic Judaism

659
00:41:00,779 --> 00:41:08,219
Speaker 5: that homosexual intercourse between men is clearly forbidden, and lesbianism

660
00:41:08,299 --> 00:41:10,459
Speaker 5: is forbidden under the area of promiscuity. I mean, it's

661
00:41:10,500 --> 00:41:13,099
Speaker 5: just simply not proper sex as you indicate, it doesn't

662
00:41:13,140 --> 00:41:19,819
Speaker 5: have the same exact dimension of negativity and prohibition. If

663
00:41:19,859 --> 00:41:21,460
Speaker 5: I were to take this a little bit forward to

664
00:41:22,299 --> 00:41:24,739
Speaker 5: now just want to add one last comment. There is

665
00:41:24,779 --> 00:41:27,979
Speaker 5: a notion in Judaism of machloket le shame shamaim, which

666
00:41:28,060 --> 00:41:32,100
Speaker 5: means true disputes that have a heavenly intent, which means

667
00:41:32,140 --> 00:41:34,739
Speaker 5: they're not they're not conducted in order to defame or

668
00:41:34,819 --> 00:41:36,980
Speaker 5: to damage, but really to try to find what the

669
00:41:37,060 --> 00:41:39,860
Speaker 5: truth is. So if it is true as doctor Hanson

670
00:41:39,940 --> 00:41:43,739
Speaker 5: is saying, that inside the dimension of law, there's something

671
00:41:43,779 --> 00:41:47,180
Speaker 5: called spirit and dura and in an in an understanding

672
00:41:47,219 --> 00:41:51,500
Speaker 5: of Judaism that God's will becomes apparent through the generations,

673
00:41:51,540 --> 00:41:54,100
Speaker 5: as people study and as and as the oral law develops.

674
00:41:54,739 --> 00:41:57,939
Speaker 5: It's not it's from a Jewish perspective, Revelation didn't end

675
00:41:58,020 --> 00:42:00,700
Speaker 5: when the Torah was given. Revelation began, the conversation between

676
00:42:00,700 --> 00:42:03,620
Speaker 5: God and the Jewish people began, and the conversation between

677
00:42:03,779 --> 00:42:06,819
Speaker 5: Jews themselves began. So we're used to the idea of

678
00:42:06,859 --> 00:42:09,979
Speaker 5: a machlokate le shame shamayam of heavenly disputes. I would say,

679
00:42:10,060 --> 00:42:12,339
Speaker 5: in the Jewish world right now, we're in one of

680
00:42:12,380 --> 00:42:15,140
Speaker 5: those machlok. It's one of those great controversies where we're

681
00:42:15,140 --> 00:42:18,580
Speaker 5: really trying to understand not only what is scripture teaching us,

682
00:42:19,140 --> 00:42:22,620
Speaker 5: but what things in scripture might be there, the kinds

683
00:42:22,620 --> 00:42:24,540
Speaker 5: of thing that doctor Hanson spoke about, which means, is

684
00:42:24,580 --> 00:42:26,700
Speaker 5: there a message of love and compassion and so forth

685
00:42:26,940 --> 00:42:29,779
Speaker 5: that might trump some of these biblical laws. So I

686
00:42:29,859 --> 00:42:32,299
Speaker 5: don't want anyone to assume that once we find a

687
00:42:32,339 --> 00:42:35,500
Speaker 5: scripture in the Bible, that closes the discussion. Once a

688
00:42:35,580 --> 00:42:38,219
Speaker 5: Jew finds a scripture in the Bible that opens the discussion,

689
00:42:38,299 --> 00:42:40,980
Speaker 5: that takes it into the oral law. And from my perspective,

690
00:42:41,020 --> 00:42:43,779
Speaker 5: the oral law, the discussions of the oral law have

691
00:42:43,980 --> 00:42:46,180
Speaker 5: not stopped, and we're in one of those discussions today.

692
00:42:46,420 --> 00:42:49,540
Speaker 5: So if I can just say one last thing here then,

693
00:42:49,660 --> 00:42:51,020
Speaker 5: is when you said you both can't be right. I

694
00:42:51,060 --> 00:42:53,979
Speaker 5: think from a Jewish perspective, we might pause, because from

695
00:42:54,020 --> 00:42:59,259
Speaker 5: a philosophic, pragmatic perspective, Judaism wants us to stop for

696
00:42:59,299 --> 00:43:01,779
Speaker 5: a minute and say, let's not try to solve this

697
00:43:01,980 --> 00:43:05,500
Speaker 5: right now, Let's listen to each other, Let's take our positions,

698
00:43:05,940 --> 00:43:10,940
Speaker 5: let's engage in respectful debate. Let's understand scripture, understand conscience,

699
00:43:11,219 --> 00:43:15,540
Speaker 5: understand morality, and continue this work. The greatest thing I

700
00:43:15,620 --> 00:43:20,100
Speaker 5: find disturbing in this conversation that's conducted culturally, which I

701
00:43:20,180 --> 00:43:22,540
Speaker 5: tried into it before, is the amount of venom that

702
00:43:22,580 --> 00:43:26,540
Speaker 5: gets introduced. Not the collegiality that one sees here, but

703
00:43:26,620 --> 00:43:29,620
Speaker 5: when people stake out positions, it's as if a person

704
00:43:29,660 --> 00:43:33,660
Speaker 5: who does not want to affirm homosexual relations, you know,

705
00:43:33,859 --> 00:43:36,739
Speaker 5: is homophobic, or a person who does do it is

706
00:43:36,819 --> 00:43:39,899
Speaker 5: destroying religion. Now those both might be true, but from

707
00:43:39,940 --> 00:43:43,980
Speaker 5: my perspective, we don't get very far if we accuse

708
00:43:44,060 --> 00:43:49,620
Speaker 5: each other of being either degraded in our reading of

709
00:43:49,660 --> 00:43:52,339
Speaker 5: scripture or degraded in our moral compassion. It's much better

710
00:43:52,420 --> 00:43:53,780
Speaker 5: to conduct a holy debate.

711
00:43:55,100 --> 00:43:59,140
Speaker 2: Amen, let me ask fall the choral what are the

712
00:43:59,259 --> 00:44:03,459
Speaker 2: bases scriptural and Catholic teaching that you stake out your

713
00:44:03,500 --> 00:44:04,460
Speaker 2: position based on.

714
00:44:05,739 --> 00:44:10,620
Speaker 9: Well, probably Catholicism is closer to Judaism on that subject

715
00:44:10,660 --> 00:44:14,180
Speaker 9: than we are to Protestantism, because one of the rally

716
00:44:14,219 --> 00:44:18,300
Speaker 9: and cries of the Protestant Reformation was scripture or sola,

717
00:44:18,700 --> 00:44:22,299
Speaker 9: that everything would be based upon scripture alone. Whereas in

718
00:44:22,339 --> 00:44:25,739
Speaker 9: Catholicism we base our teaching not only on the scripture,

719
00:44:26,060 --> 00:44:28,500
Speaker 9: but we believe that God has also revealed himself in

720
00:44:29,140 --> 00:44:32,700
Speaker 9: oral tradition, the sacred tradition. And therefore we look to

721
00:44:33,020 --> 00:44:36,539
Speaker 9: the Magisterium of the Church, the teaching authority of the Church,

722
00:44:36,940 --> 00:44:39,219
Speaker 9: to sift through that which is in the tradition and

723
00:44:39,299 --> 00:44:41,700
Speaker 9: that which is in the Scripture, to give us authentic

724
00:44:41,779 --> 00:44:46,900
Speaker 9: interpretation and authoritative doctrines with regard to matters of faith

725
00:44:46,940 --> 00:44:49,980
Speaker 9: and morals. And so we would base our teaching not

726
00:44:50,140 --> 00:44:56,259
Speaker 9: only on the scriptural references to things like a man

727
00:44:56,420 --> 00:44:59,660
Speaker 9: shall leave his family and take to himself as wife,

728
00:44:59,700 --> 00:45:03,019
Speaker 9: and they shall be faithful and the two shall become one,

729
00:45:03,660 --> 00:45:08,539
Speaker 9: or the condemnation of homosexual activity. In the Jewish law,

730
00:45:09,380 --> 00:45:13,500
Speaker 9: Saint Paul enumerates homosexuality is one of those sins that

731
00:45:13,739 --> 00:45:19,379
Speaker 9: will preclude entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven, along with murder, theft, adultery,

732
00:45:19,460 --> 00:45:22,339
Speaker 9: and so forth. So we have that scriptural basis, But

733
00:45:22,420 --> 00:45:26,060
Speaker 9: then we also have the philosophical contribution to Catholic theology,

734
00:45:26,500 --> 00:45:29,859
Speaker 9: which says that God has given us human sexuality as

735
00:45:29,900 --> 00:45:34,539
Speaker 9: a gift, and attached to this gift there are certain ends,

736
00:45:34,739 --> 00:45:38,339
Speaker 9: primary ends and secondary ends. For the longest time, the

737
00:45:38,420 --> 00:45:41,940
Speaker 9: primary end of human sexuality was seen as being procreation.

738
00:45:42,380 --> 00:45:46,060
Speaker 9: God gave us human sexuality primarily so that the human

739
00:45:46,140 --> 00:45:51,340
Speaker 9: race will be continued. As the doctrine developed, though unity,

740
00:45:51,620 --> 00:45:55,060
Speaker 9: the unit of aspect of human sexuality came to be

741
00:45:55,580 --> 00:45:59,820
Speaker 9: considered equal with the procreative aspect, and so the Catholic

742
00:45:59,900 --> 00:46:02,819
Speaker 9: Church teach us that the primary ends of human sexuality

743
00:46:03,339 --> 00:46:07,020
Speaker 9: are to be procreative and to be unitive, and that

744
00:46:07,140 --> 00:46:10,859
Speaker 9: the best context for this to happen is in the

745
00:46:11,540 --> 00:46:14,899
Speaker 9: sacrament of matrimony in the married state, where you have

746
00:46:15,180 --> 00:46:20,140
Speaker 9: a stability and fidelity and monogamy, and so our teaching

747
00:46:20,259 --> 00:46:24,980
Speaker 9: is that human sexuality, the exercise of the gift of

748
00:46:25,060 --> 00:46:29,980
Speaker 9: human sexuality, is good and holy when it is between

749
00:46:30,060 --> 00:46:31,939
Speaker 9: a man and a woman who are married to each

750
00:46:31,980 --> 00:46:36,299
Speaker 9: other in a context which is loving and open to

751
00:46:36,580 --> 00:46:40,660
Speaker 9: creating new life. Anything other than that is considered to

752
00:46:40,779 --> 00:46:44,620
Speaker 9: be to a greater or lesser extent sinful. And the

753
00:46:44,700 --> 00:46:48,540
Speaker 9: word that's used, and this is quite often abused by

754
00:46:48,620 --> 00:46:52,100
Speaker 9: both sides of the issue on homosexuality, is that anything

755
00:46:52,219 --> 00:46:55,860
Speaker 9: other than being ordered towards procreation and union in marriage

756
00:46:56,299 --> 00:46:59,219
Speaker 9: is disordered. And very often people will say, oh, well,

757
00:46:59,339 --> 00:47:01,939
Speaker 9: see the church is picking on us. The gay people

758
00:47:01,940 --> 00:47:03,660
Speaker 9: will say the church is picking on us because they're

759
00:47:03,660 --> 00:47:06,500
Speaker 9: saying we're sick. That's not what's being meant. When we

760
00:47:06,620 --> 00:47:09,940
Speaker 9: use the word disorder, its being used in a precise

761
00:47:10,020 --> 00:47:15,580
Speaker 9: philosophical context, which means that if your expression of sexuality

762
00:47:16,060 --> 00:47:20,580
Speaker 9: is not ordered towards union and procreation, then it is

763
00:47:20,779 --> 00:47:24,779
Speaker 9: is not ordered correctly. Therefore it is disordered. So we

764
00:47:24,819 --> 00:47:29,339
Speaker 9: could say masturbation is disordered. A husband and wife having

765
00:47:29,380 --> 00:47:34,419
Speaker 9: sexual intercourse that's using artificial contraception is disordered. So it's

766
00:47:34,460 --> 00:47:37,259
Speaker 9: in no way just an attack on gay people and

767
00:47:37,700 --> 00:47:41,100
Speaker 9: gay sexuality and saying that's disordered. Anything that falls short

768
00:47:41,140 --> 00:47:45,899
Speaker 9: of the ideal of husband wife, union, procreation, openness to

769
00:47:46,020 --> 00:47:49,540
Speaker 9: procreation would be considered disordered. And this comes from two

770
00:47:49,580 --> 00:47:52,260
Speaker 9: thousand years of the church's teaching tradition.

771
00:47:53,460 --> 00:47:57,660
Speaker 2: Pastor Jackson, is there anything to add bases for saying

772
00:47:58,339 --> 00:48:00,540
Speaker 2: holding the position of the heterosexual ideal?

773
00:48:02,100 --> 00:48:05,700
Speaker 4: No, It starts in Genesis two Adam and Eve. God

774
00:48:05,779 --> 00:48:08,180
Speaker 4: says one man, one woman, brings them together.

775
00:48:09,380 --> 00:48:12,740
Speaker 3: As you go through the scriptures, whenever that pattern was followed,

776
00:48:12,779 --> 00:48:15,259
Speaker 3: God blessed it. Whenever they went outside of that, whether

777
00:48:15,380 --> 00:48:23,060
Speaker 3: it was prostitution, adultery, polygamy, or home sexuality, disaster was

778
00:48:23,140 --> 00:48:26,579
Speaker 3: always the occurrence. Four thousand years later, Jesus comes along

779
00:48:26,700 --> 00:48:29,099
Speaker 3: and reaffirms Genesis too.

780
00:48:29,180 --> 00:48:31,660
Speaker 4: As the established order.

781
00:48:32,299 --> 00:48:35,859
Speaker 3: And we're now two thousand years later, and I don't

782
00:48:35,900 --> 00:48:39,140
Speaker 3: see much of a reason to change that.

783
00:48:39,940 --> 00:48:41,540
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, we can always sit here and think, well,

784
00:48:41,620 --> 00:48:44,060
Speaker 4: I would like this, and I would like that. But

785
00:48:45,980 --> 00:48:46,740
Speaker 4: we have a choice.

786
00:48:46,779 --> 00:48:50,540
Speaker 3: Either we have an established code or we decide on

787
00:48:50,700 --> 00:48:52,060
Speaker 3: our own, well, we're going.

788
00:48:51,940 --> 00:48:53,379
Speaker 4: To do this, and sometimes we do that.

789
00:48:53,900 --> 00:48:58,419
Speaker 3: You know, the Bible says adultery is wrong but our

790
00:48:58,500 --> 00:49:00,940
Speaker 3: society says, well, you know, we like, we don't have

791
00:49:01,100 --> 00:49:04,259
Speaker 3: a major problem with that, and so therefore adultery is

792
00:49:04,339 --> 00:49:06,540
Speaker 3: no longer a crime.

793
00:49:06,819 --> 00:49:12,739
Speaker 4: Or now it's not even a reason for in divorce.

794
00:49:14,259 --> 00:49:18,419
Speaker 3: But whenever we go outside of God's pattern, disaster takes place,

795
00:49:18,500 --> 00:49:20,020
Speaker 3: and we see that in our society today.

796
00:49:20,339 --> 00:49:23,979
Speaker 2: So let me ask doctor Hanson and Rabbi Finley, because well,

797
00:49:24,060 --> 00:49:28,180
Speaker 2: Rabbi Finley has stated that he understands the position to

798
00:49:28,259 --> 00:49:31,540
Speaker 2: be the heterosexual ideal. You do say that this is

799
00:49:31,580 --> 00:49:33,940
Speaker 2: a holy debate that is being engaged in, and so on.

800
00:49:34,779 --> 00:49:36,219
Speaker 2: So I'm going to pose this to both of you.

801
00:49:36,420 --> 00:49:38,979
Speaker 2: It seems on the basis of what was said now

802
00:49:40,140 --> 00:49:42,940
Speaker 2: that there it does appear to me, I think, to

803
00:49:43,660 --> 00:49:45,899
Speaker 2: a fair outsider, if there is such a thing as

804
00:49:45,980 --> 00:49:51,859
Speaker 2: one that there is overwhelming preference in Judaism and Christianity

805
00:49:51,980 --> 00:49:57,260
Speaker 2: for the heterosexual union and not homosexual union, why can't

806
00:49:58,140 --> 00:50:00,899
Speaker 2: a gay person who wants to be a faithful Jew

807
00:50:00,980 --> 00:50:05,419
Speaker 2: or faithful Christian say, look, that's the ideal. I try

808
00:50:05,500 --> 00:50:08,660
Speaker 2: to do it. I can't do it. It's not in me.

809
00:50:08,859 --> 00:50:11,660
Speaker 2: It's like asking me to be an ardvark. I can't

810
00:50:11,819 --> 00:50:15,820
Speaker 2: do it. So I contend that it is the ideal,

811
00:50:16,460 --> 00:50:19,739
Speaker 2: but I can't live it fully because I am not

812
00:50:19,819 --> 00:50:22,060
Speaker 2: attracted to the other sex. There's nothing I can do.

813
00:50:22,259 --> 00:50:26,180
Speaker 2: So my choice is being alone or living a good

814
00:50:26,739 --> 00:50:30,379
Speaker 2: life with one person of my same sex. We will

815
00:50:30,460 --> 00:50:33,940
Speaker 2: refrain from the specific prohibition of that general activity, but

816
00:50:34,060 --> 00:50:37,459
Speaker 2: otherwise we will we will be bonded in every way.

817
00:50:38,060 --> 00:50:41,259
Speaker 2: What is wrong with a gay person saying that? See,

818
00:50:41,940 --> 00:50:44,700
Speaker 2: that's my position. I don't want gay people to live

819
00:50:44,739 --> 00:50:49,580
Speaker 2: alone if they can't live heterosexually, I don't want them

820
00:50:49,620 --> 00:50:52,180
Speaker 2: to be alone. It's not good for man to be alone, period.

821
00:50:53,060 --> 00:50:56,060
Speaker 2: So here I have a so called liberal position, but

822
00:50:56,219 --> 00:51:00,819
Speaker 2: I won't change my religion's standards for the sake of

823
00:51:01,020 --> 00:51:05,779
Speaker 2: your greater joy in life. And that's why I don't

824
00:51:05,900 --> 00:51:09,460
Speaker 2: understand how on religious grounds, And this is my challenge.

825
00:51:09,900 --> 00:51:13,939
Speaker 2: I do hold the position you don't like. I think

826
00:51:13,980 --> 00:51:17,460
Speaker 2: that those who are saying Judaism and Christianity do in

827
00:51:17,660 --> 00:51:22,819
Speaker 2: fact have no problem with homosexuals, union are in some

828
00:51:23,020 --> 00:51:26,180
Speaker 2: ways destroying the religion because they are making something up

829
00:51:26,299 --> 00:51:29,260
Speaker 2: in the name of the religion. So I am troubled terribly.

830
00:51:29,779 --> 00:51:32,299
Speaker 2: So I begin with doctor Hanson, what's wrong with my

831
00:51:33,500 --> 00:51:34,820
Speaker 2: semi solution.

832
00:51:36,819 --> 00:51:40,739
Speaker 7: There's nothing wrong with a gay person choosing individually to

833
00:51:41,180 --> 00:51:45,379
Speaker 7: say that's okay for me. The fact is that most

834
00:51:45,460 --> 00:51:47,460
Speaker 7: of the gay people that I know would say that

835
00:51:48,100 --> 00:51:53,060
Speaker 7: you're treating me as a second class person. You're saying

836
00:51:53,180 --> 00:51:59,660
Speaker 7: that somehow I should not have a claim to the

837
00:51:59,779 --> 00:52:02,899
Speaker 7: fullness of the kind of life that you, as a

838
00:52:02,980 --> 00:52:09,540
Speaker 7: heterosexual person enjoy. Are the gay people that I know

839
00:52:09,859 --> 00:52:14,219
Speaker 7: who are in loving, committed relationships, are people who are

840
00:52:15,660 --> 00:52:19,940
Speaker 7: have manifest in their relationship many the same kinds of

841
00:52:20,060 --> 00:52:24,739
Speaker 7: blessings that are in a healthy, happy heterosexual relationship. Some

842
00:52:24,900 --> 00:52:31,140
Speaker 7: of them are adopting and raising children. They and some

843
00:52:31,339 --> 00:52:34,219
Speaker 7: of them would be of far greater quality and better

844
00:52:34,420 --> 00:52:38,060
Speaker 7: than some of the heterosexual relationships that we probably.

845
00:52:37,739 --> 00:52:38,420
Speaker 2: Are familiar with.

846
00:52:39,500 --> 00:52:45,540
Speaker 7: So I guess the question is why hold up some

847
00:52:46,180 --> 00:52:52,660
Speaker 7: ideal that relates to one portion of God's people and

848
00:52:52,819 --> 00:52:58,140
Speaker 7: exclude another portion of God's people who for whom that

849
00:52:58,660 --> 00:53:03,060
Speaker 7: ideal doesn't work or apply and isn't an option or available?

850
00:53:03,540 --> 00:53:06,259
Speaker 7: And why is it that you've got to cling to that,

851
00:53:07,380 --> 00:53:10,819
Speaker 7: And why isn't that your religion can't be more embracing

852
00:53:10,980 --> 00:53:14,499
Speaker 7: and expansive than that and be limited in that way.

853
00:53:15,380 --> 00:53:17,219
Speaker 7: I mean, that's the take I would have on But.

854
00:53:17,259 --> 00:53:19,859
Speaker 3: You don't take that into any other relationship outside of

855
00:53:19,940 --> 00:53:24,500
Speaker 3: homosexual conduct. If someone said, well, you know, I like

856
00:53:25,219 --> 00:53:28,060
Speaker 3: twelve year old girls, I don't think you would say, well,

857
00:53:28,100 --> 00:53:29,660
Speaker 3: if they love each other, let them get married.

858
00:53:29,779 --> 00:53:30,219
Speaker 7: Of course not.

859
00:53:30,380 --> 00:53:30,620
Speaker 4: Okay.

860
00:53:30,700 --> 00:53:35,900
Speaker 3: I have an article here in Alabama Carol and Alice

861
00:53:36,500 --> 00:53:41,899
Speaker 3: Ferdinandssen got married. He's fifty five, she's thirty two, and

862
00:53:42,500 --> 00:53:45,859
Speaker 3: they were arrested after they found out that they were

863
00:53:45,980 --> 00:53:49,819
Speaker 3: father and daughter. Now that's fifty and thirty. You'd think, well,

864
00:53:50,420 --> 00:53:52,379
Speaker 3: why not let them. I mean, they're old enough to

865
00:53:52,380 --> 00:53:55,379
Speaker 3: make that decision, But society says, I don't think so.

866
00:53:56,700 --> 00:53:59,100
Speaker 3: You know, Governor mc greevy, you know, a man and

867
00:53:59,140 --> 00:54:03,379
Speaker 3: a woman, polygamy, all of those different things. It's only

868
00:54:03,620 --> 00:54:08,060
Speaker 3: in the homosexual relationship do people say, well, we want

869
00:54:08,100 --> 00:54:11,540
Speaker 3: to be tolerant and we should let them do their

870
00:54:11,620 --> 00:54:12,019
Speaker 3: own thing.

871
00:54:12,700 --> 00:54:14,899
Speaker 4: But we don't do that in any other area of

872
00:54:14,980 --> 00:54:15,820
Speaker 4: sexual conduct.

873
00:54:17,580 --> 00:54:20,939
Speaker 2: Pastor Hanson, what's wrong with that fifty five year old

874
00:54:20,980 --> 00:54:24,219
Speaker 2: man and thirty year old woman getting married. I think that.

875
00:54:25,779 --> 00:54:29,060
Speaker 7: We've learned through the generations. I guess the human family

876
00:54:29,219 --> 00:54:33,980
Speaker 7: has that there is a problem when relatives, close relatives

877
00:54:34,299 --> 00:54:36,140
Speaker 7: marry each other and beget children.

878
00:54:36,259 --> 00:54:38,460
Speaker 4: What if they commit themselves not to have children.

879
00:54:39,460 --> 00:54:41,339
Speaker 2: I mean, so it's only a health problem you have

880
00:54:41,540 --> 00:54:43,779
Speaker 2: that there might be a child who comes from it

881
00:54:43,819 --> 00:54:44,100
Speaker 2: does not.

882
00:54:44,180 --> 00:54:48,020
Speaker 3: Healthy, And if it's only healthy, then certainly homosexuality should

883
00:54:48,060 --> 00:54:52,940
Speaker 3: should really be not condemned necessarily, but at least warned against,

884
00:54:52,980 --> 00:54:56,779
Speaker 3: because the life expectancy of homosexuals is what twenty five

885
00:54:56,900 --> 00:54:58,980
Speaker 3: years less than the average.

886
00:55:01,060 --> 00:55:05,819
Speaker 7: Well, I think that you're behind your statement is an

887
00:55:05,859 --> 00:55:10,859
Speaker 7: assumption that homosexual people choose to be homosexual. What I'm

888
00:55:10,900 --> 00:55:15,060
Speaker 7: speaking of is homosexual people who discover that that's.

889
00:55:14,940 --> 00:55:15,939
Speaker 2: Who they are.

890
00:55:16,859 --> 00:55:19,020
Speaker 7: And so the question is are they going to have

891
00:55:19,140 --> 00:55:24,020
Speaker 7: a fuller, happy, more fulfilled life if in fact they

892
00:55:24,100 --> 00:55:26,859
Speaker 7: can be in a loving, committed relationship and be there

893
00:55:26,940 --> 00:55:29,100
Speaker 7: for each other through the struggles of life that we

894
00:55:29,219 --> 00:55:29,740
Speaker 7: all face.

895
00:55:29,980 --> 00:55:32,020
Speaker 4: Do pedophiles choose to be pedophiles?

896
00:55:34,060 --> 00:55:37,180
Speaker 7: And in this case, what you're talking about is people

897
00:55:37,299 --> 00:55:41,500
Speaker 7: doing something destructive and hurtful to people, People taking advantage

898
00:55:41,540 --> 00:55:44,700
Speaker 7: of people, people using and abusing people, And of course

899
00:55:44,779 --> 00:55:47,700
Speaker 7: those are wrong. Those are not reflections of honoring and

900
00:55:48,180 --> 00:55:51,540
Speaker 7: caring for other people. So what I'm saying is we

901
00:55:51,660 --> 00:55:54,219
Speaker 7: got to look to the spirit of God that is

902
00:55:54,339 --> 00:55:57,500
Speaker 7: present in all of us and that seeks to guide

903
00:55:57,580 --> 00:56:01,739
Speaker 7: us towards these respectful, honoring, loving relationship.

904
00:56:01,779 --> 00:56:04,660
Speaker 2: Let me challenge the pastor on the other side, Pastor Jackson,

905
00:56:04,739 --> 00:56:07,299
Speaker 2: do you believe that people choose to be homosexual?

906
00:56:09,060 --> 00:56:12,339
Speaker 3: I don't know necessarily that they choose to be homosexual,

907
00:56:14,060 --> 00:56:16,460
Speaker 3: but I don't believe that they're I don't believe that

908
00:56:16,500 --> 00:56:19,620
Speaker 3: they're born homosexual anymore than one would be born an

909
00:56:19,620 --> 00:56:20,859
Speaker 3: adulterer or.

910
00:56:21,580 --> 00:56:26,420
Speaker 2: Well thinks, as it happens, we choose not to be okay,

911
00:56:26,540 --> 00:56:30,779
Speaker 2: but that's well, we are born that way.

912
00:56:32,420 --> 00:56:34,620
Speaker 4: Let let me let me say, now this is just

913
00:56:35,259 --> 00:56:36,620
Speaker 4: you know, I'll just throw this out.

914
00:56:39,940 --> 00:56:43,259
Speaker 3: And maybe the Father there can add a little bit

915
00:56:43,299 --> 00:56:47,780
Speaker 3: more to this. But if you take the biblical position

916
00:56:47,859 --> 00:56:52,100
Speaker 3: of original sin, that we are we are born with

917
00:56:52,219 --> 00:56:56,739
Speaker 3: a sin nature, and everybody manifests that sin nature in

918
00:56:56,900 --> 00:57:00,779
Speaker 3: some way. Some may say, well, I'm a pedophile, some

919
00:57:00,980 --> 00:57:03,579
Speaker 3: may say I'm a rapist, some may say I'm a thief,

920
00:57:03,900 --> 00:57:07,180
Speaker 3: some may say I overeat. I mean, there's a lot

921
00:57:07,219 --> 00:57:08,780
Speaker 3: of different ways that we can take.

922
00:57:08,739 --> 00:57:14,060
Speaker 4: Our our are bent towards sin and go in some ways.

923
00:57:14,620 --> 00:57:16,700
Speaker 3: We always joke at our church and you know, if

924
00:57:16,740 --> 00:57:19,780
Speaker 3: you're an alcoholic, you know, oh man, that's bad. If

925
00:57:19,940 --> 00:57:21,820
Speaker 3: if you over eat eat, you know, we say, well,

926
00:57:21,860 --> 00:57:23,459
Speaker 3: let's go to Marie Calendar's get a piece of pine

927
00:57:23,460 --> 00:57:28,059
Speaker 3: and talk about it, you know, because that's an acceptable sin.

928
00:57:28,220 --> 00:57:31,180
Speaker 3: Glutton he has spoken about in the scriptures as a sin.

929
00:57:32,140 --> 00:57:35,220
Speaker 3: But and so within the context of our society, there are.

930
00:57:35,180 --> 00:57:39,020
Speaker 2: Acceptable to be honest, though there is a difference between

931
00:57:39,180 --> 00:57:42,060
Speaker 2: because you can choose not to eat at Marie Calendars

932
00:57:42,100 --> 00:57:44,660
Speaker 2: and still have food. But if homosexual chooses not to

933
00:57:44,780 --> 00:57:47,300
Speaker 2: have a man, if he's a male, then he's alone.

934
00:57:48,020 --> 00:57:51,900
Speaker 2: Then he has no one. Do you do you acknowledge that? Yes? Okay,

935
00:57:52,620 --> 00:57:55,260
Speaker 2: So how did he get that way? In your view?

936
00:57:57,260 --> 00:58:01,220
Speaker 3: I think anyone who is caught up in any kind

937
00:58:01,260 --> 00:58:04,780
Speaker 3: of and I'll use the term perversion in not not

938
00:58:04,980 --> 00:58:08,540
Speaker 3: in a slanderous kind of a way, but in a in.

939
00:58:08,820 --> 00:58:10,860
Speaker 2: The disordered way. There the disordered way.

940
00:58:10,860 --> 00:58:15,780
Speaker 3: That yeah, okay, that there's a lot of different ways.

941
00:58:16,740 --> 00:58:18,580
Speaker 3: I mean some I think it was Freud said that

942
00:58:19,460 --> 00:58:21,419
Speaker 3: you know, a bad mother in some cases of me.

943
00:58:21,580 --> 00:58:24,100
Speaker 2: Even if it's a bad mother. Though he didn't choose

944
00:58:24,220 --> 00:58:26,660
Speaker 2: to be attracted only to his same sex. Is that

945
00:58:26,820 --> 00:58:29,020
Speaker 2: fair to say? It's fair to say, Okay, what do

946
00:58:29,180 --> 00:58:31,460
Speaker 2: you recommend that he do? Was a faithful Christian?

947
00:58:32,420 --> 00:58:34,820
Speaker 4: I think he has to abstain in the same way.

948
00:58:35,220 --> 00:58:37,540
Speaker 2: That's the way. Wait wait, wait, what's so? What can

949
00:58:37,660 --> 00:58:40,860
Speaker 2: he live with a man and abstained from genital contact?

950
00:58:40,980 --> 00:58:43,060
Speaker 2: I think so, oh that's a big statement.

951
00:58:43,100 --> 00:58:45,939
Speaker 4: Brothers do it, fine, brothers live together.

952
00:58:46,220 --> 00:58:49,499
Speaker 2: So you you So you have my position then, which

953
00:58:49,580 --> 00:58:52,140
Speaker 2: I it's often been called liberal position, not not an

954
00:58:52,180 --> 00:58:56,860
Speaker 2: accusation I normally get, but uh, it's you. You would

955
00:58:56,940 --> 00:59:01,100
Speaker 2: counsel a Christian who had attempted heterosexual relations, found them

956
00:59:01,300 --> 00:59:04,700
Speaker 2: impossible to engage in, and you would not want him

957
00:59:04,740 --> 00:59:06,860
Speaker 2: to be alone. So you would just say, refrained from

958
00:59:06,940 --> 00:59:10,780
Speaker 2: the levitical ban on genital intercourse.

959
00:59:10,860 --> 00:59:11,059
Speaker 8: Yeah.

960
00:59:11,060 --> 00:59:13,380
Speaker 3: I don't think there's anywhere in scripture that says being

961
00:59:13,420 --> 00:59:14,900
Speaker 3: a homosexual is a sin.

962
00:59:15,020 --> 00:59:15,660
Speaker 2: Okay, agree.

963
00:59:15,700 --> 00:59:16,100
Speaker 5: The problem.

964
00:59:16,180 --> 00:59:19,540
Speaker 3: The problem is we have identified homosexuality not with with

965
00:59:19,740 --> 00:59:21,020
Speaker 3: a person, but with an act.

966
00:59:21,820 --> 00:59:25,140
Speaker 4: It is the act of homosexuality exactly.

967
00:59:25,260 --> 00:59:27,340
Speaker 2: Okay. So, by the way, I just want to say,

968
00:59:27,460 --> 00:59:33,020
Speaker 2: we have here the distance. This goes to your point

969
00:59:33,180 --> 00:59:37,060
Speaker 2: that so often the venom obscures any possible if it's

970
00:59:37,100 --> 00:59:41,260
Speaker 2: even possible, compromise. And I mean we have here an

971
00:59:41,300 --> 00:59:45,900
Speaker 2: evangelical pastor from the theological right saying, I have no

972
00:59:46,100 --> 00:59:49,740
Speaker 2: problem with a person being a homosexual. I have a

973
00:59:49,820 --> 00:59:52,660
Speaker 2: problem with how he acts on it. And I'm not

974
00:59:52,820 --> 00:59:55,780
Speaker 2: asking him to live alone, and I'm not even asking

975
00:59:55,860 --> 00:59:59,260
Speaker 2: him not to embrace another man. He should have the

976
00:59:59,340 --> 01:00:02,900
Speaker 2: companionship of a partner. But there is a prohibition on

977
01:00:02,980 --> 01:00:06,579
Speaker 2: a specific act. Is that fair to say, yeah, forgive

978
01:00:06,620 --> 01:00:08,860
Speaker 2: me once. How do you react to that? Why is that?

979
01:00:09,420 --> 01:00:11,660
Speaker 2: Is it all thanks to that one act? Because that

980
01:00:11,820 --> 01:00:15,939
Speaker 2: makes a gay person a second class citizen. Why can't

981
01:00:15,980 --> 01:00:19,660
Speaker 2: you see he is saying, look, we want you to

982
01:00:19,780 --> 01:00:22,340
Speaker 2: be we want you to have love, we don't want

983
01:00:22,380 --> 01:00:24,340
Speaker 2: you to be ostracized, we want you to have a

984
01:00:24,380 --> 01:00:26,980
Speaker 2: fulfilling life, but we also want to be true to

985
01:00:27,060 --> 01:00:30,100
Speaker 2: our religion. And you're saying, look, the hell with those verses.

986
01:00:30,860 --> 01:00:34,980
Speaker 2: I know better that God Christ wants me to be loving,

987
01:00:35,820 --> 01:00:38,180
Speaker 2: but I can't do that to my religion. The hell

988
01:00:38,260 --> 01:00:41,700
Speaker 2: with those verses, because then it's denicism, it's not judaism.

989
01:00:43,260 --> 01:00:48,660
Speaker 7: Sure, I understand that this is a that we have

990
01:00:48,740 --> 01:00:52,020
Speaker 7: been really brought up in religions that have taught us

991
01:00:52,140 --> 01:00:56,540
Speaker 7: here's the rules, these are the beliefs, and that when

992
01:00:56,580 --> 01:01:01,100
Speaker 7: we're suddenly confronted with new realities of that are beyond

993
01:01:01,180 --> 01:01:04,420
Speaker 7: our experience and our understanding, that then it feels like

994
01:01:04,580 --> 01:01:08,580
Speaker 7: somehow to in some way engage and embrace these new

995
01:01:08,660 --> 01:01:11,700
Speaker 7: realities that can be threatening to what our faith says.

996
01:01:12,340 --> 01:01:16,100
Speaker 7: And I understand that it's difficult for often for gay

997
01:01:16,180 --> 01:01:20,300
Speaker 7: people themselves to come to somehow to a place of

998
01:01:20,300 --> 01:01:23,300
Speaker 7: rect inciling who they are and what they experience with

999
01:01:23,420 --> 01:01:26,300
Speaker 7: what they've been brought up to believe. And so I

1000
01:01:26,380 --> 01:01:30,180
Speaker 7: don't know if it's true in the governor's case, but

1001
01:01:30,340 --> 01:01:32,500
Speaker 7: perhaps it took him that long in his life to

1002
01:01:32,580 --> 01:01:35,420
Speaker 7: finally come to terms with what he really felt because

1003
01:01:35,460 --> 01:01:37,740
Speaker 7: all of the pressures may have been on him to

1004
01:01:37,860 --> 01:01:41,020
Speaker 7: adapt heterosexually when that wasn't being true to who he

1005
01:01:41,140 --> 01:01:43,780
Speaker 7: really was. I don't know, but I'm just speculating. I

1006
01:01:43,900 --> 01:01:46,220
Speaker 7: know that that's a true story for a number of

1007
01:01:46,340 --> 01:01:50,900
Speaker 7: people that are members of my congregation, and so that

1008
01:01:51,020 --> 01:01:55,260
Speaker 7: that internal struggle between faith and between what one discovers

1009
01:01:55,340 --> 01:01:58,660
Speaker 7: one's self to be is very real and very powerful.

1010
01:01:59,220 --> 01:02:01,980
Speaker 7: And so it takes time for a person to finally

1011
01:02:02,020 --> 01:02:06,140
Speaker 7: come to understand how they are also included in God's

1012
01:02:06,180 --> 01:02:09,940
Speaker 7: love and how they can be an embodiment of God's

1013
01:02:09,980 --> 01:02:12,939
Speaker 7: love in the world as Christ was in their own

1014
01:02:13,020 --> 01:02:16,180
Speaker 7: daily lives as a gay or a lesbian person, and

1015
01:02:16,300 --> 01:02:18,460
Speaker 7: indeed that that's what they're called to be, just as

1016
01:02:18,540 --> 01:02:21,060
Speaker 7: all of us who are seeking to live as God

1017
01:02:21,180 --> 01:02:24,580
Speaker 7: wants us to live are invited to represent that spirit

1018
01:02:24,740 --> 01:02:25,579
Speaker 7: in our daily living.

1019
01:02:25,780 --> 01:02:27,580
Speaker 2: Well, how do you know how God wants you to live?

1020
01:02:27,620 --> 01:02:30,340
Speaker 2: If you're prepared to dump the verses that don't work

1021
01:02:30,420 --> 01:02:30,620
Speaker 2: for you.

1022
01:02:32,460 --> 01:02:37,620
Speaker 7: I think that it is done with perhaps fear and trembling,

1023
01:02:37,700 --> 01:02:40,300
Speaker 7: and done with prayer and discernment and a lot of

1024
01:02:40,380 --> 01:02:44,019
Speaker 7: biblical study. And the Methodist tradition that I'm in, we're

1025
01:02:44,060 --> 01:02:48,340
Speaker 7: given not just scripture alone, and not scripture and just tradition,

1026
01:02:49,020 --> 01:02:52,060
Speaker 7: but John Wesley, who is the founder of the Methodist movement,

1027
01:02:52,180 --> 01:02:55,740
Speaker 7: added experience and reason, so that we're supposed to be

1028
01:02:55,900 --> 01:03:00,180
Speaker 7: engaging seriously with scripture and to take it seriously. We're

1029
01:03:00,220 --> 01:03:02,939
Speaker 7: also supposed to really look at the tradition that we've

1030
01:03:03,460 --> 01:03:06,780
Speaker 7: had handed down through the teachings of the church, and

1031
01:03:07,460 --> 01:03:10,540
Speaker 7: we are to look at the experience and and bring

1032
01:03:10,700 --> 01:03:14,180
Speaker 7: reason to play with it, to try to finally discern

1033
01:03:14,340 --> 01:03:18,180
Speaker 7: what we truly deeply believe and hold as that which.

1034
01:03:18,180 --> 01:03:20,820
Speaker 2: Was Robbie Finley, do you believe that God creates hates

1035
01:03:20,900 --> 01:03:21,419
Speaker 2: people gay?

1036
01:03:24,100 --> 01:03:26,780
Speaker 5: I've never put it that way, but I like you

1037
01:03:27,220 --> 01:03:30,140
Speaker 5: have reached the conclusion that we don't know what makes

1038
01:03:30,180 --> 01:03:32,459
Speaker 5: a person gay, which means they might be born that way.

1039
01:03:33,020 --> 01:03:37,660
Speaker 2: Okay, but even if born that way, do I'm not comfortable.

1040
01:03:37,980 --> 01:03:42,700
Speaker 2: I hate the word, but I'm not theologically accepting the

1041
01:03:42,820 --> 01:03:46,300
Speaker 2: notion that God made people gay. And this is not

1042
01:03:47,620 --> 01:03:49,860
Speaker 2: it could be taken as an offense. It is clearly

1043
01:03:49,980 --> 01:03:53,260
Speaker 2: not meant it. I think God wants us to be heterosexual.

1044
01:03:53,380 --> 01:03:55,820
Speaker 2: You believe that, Yes, okay, you believe that, and the

1045
01:03:55,860 --> 01:04:00,780
Speaker 2: pastor believes that. The pastor Hanson believes that God wants

1046
01:04:00,820 --> 01:04:02,860
Speaker 2: us to be loving, that God does not have a

1047
01:04:02,900 --> 01:04:05,300
Speaker 2: preference heterosexual or homosexually. Is that fair to say?

1048
01:04:07,460 --> 01:04:07,820
Speaker 4: I would?

1049
01:04:07,980 --> 01:04:09,740
Speaker 7: I guess that's that's close.

1050
01:04:13,820 --> 01:04:17,579
Speaker 2: How did I miss? Where did I see?

1051
01:04:17,620 --> 01:04:22,340
Speaker 7: I think God has clearly, in creation has allowed for

1052
01:04:22,500 --> 01:04:26,140
Speaker 7: great diversity. Does God prefer red flowers over blue flowers

1053
01:04:26,180 --> 01:04:27,020
Speaker 7: over yellow flowers?

1054
01:04:27,060 --> 01:04:29,500
Speaker 2: No, I know that's clear. He doesn't. Yeah, okay. So

1055
01:04:29,980 --> 01:04:32,740
Speaker 2: the difference between interosexual homosexual is the difference between red

1056
01:04:32,740 --> 01:04:35,020
Speaker 2: and blue and yellow. It's that insignificant.

1057
01:04:36,220 --> 01:04:38,860
Speaker 7: It's it's in fact something to be celebrated, that there

1058
01:04:39,020 --> 01:04:40,700
Speaker 7: is this great diversity in creation.

1059
01:04:40,780 --> 01:04:42,900
Speaker 3: And I asked a couple questions, doctor, do you do

1060
01:04:43,020 --> 01:04:44,900
Speaker 3: civil ceremonies in your church?

1061
01:04:46,460 --> 01:04:49,380
Speaker 4: Do we do civil civic Yeah, between gay couples.

1062
01:04:50,580 --> 01:04:54,260
Speaker 7: We have not been allowed to do that by our denomination.

1063
01:04:54,540 --> 01:04:58,060
Speaker 7: For the last several years. That's been forbidden of the

1064
01:04:58,220 --> 01:05:02,660
Speaker 7: United Methodist churches to conduct these ceremonies in their churches.

1065
01:05:03,220 --> 01:05:08,260
Speaker 7: But interestingly, our own particular congregation is struggling with do

1066
01:05:08,420 --> 01:05:10,740
Speaker 7: we want to go ahead and do it?

1067
01:05:10,780 --> 01:05:11,100
Speaker 2: Anyway?

1068
01:05:12,100 --> 01:05:14,540
Speaker 4: I asked that question. Let's assume that they allow you

1069
01:05:14,660 --> 01:05:18,419
Speaker 4: to do that. Sure, how young of a man would

1070
01:05:18,460 --> 01:05:23,419
Speaker 4: you allow to go through one of those ceremonies? Very,

1071
01:05:23,700 --> 01:05:25,900
Speaker 4: I mean my own in your own case.

1072
01:05:26,100 --> 01:05:28,220
Speaker 7: In my own case, I would be certainly asking that

1073
01:05:28,340 --> 01:05:31,980
Speaker 7: these be two mature adults who are making an adult decision.

1074
01:05:32,020 --> 01:05:34,620
Speaker 4: And so you would not allow say, a seventeen year.

1075
01:05:34,460 --> 01:05:37,460
Speaker 2: Old, No, I wouldn't.

1076
01:05:37,620 --> 01:05:39,340
Speaker 4: No, that's a person because that brings.

1077
01:05:39,180 --> 01:05:41,260
Speaker 3: Up an interesting point. Would you marry a seventeen year

1078
01:05:41,300 --> 01:05:43,260
Speaker 3: old girl to say, a nineteen year old.

1079
01:05:43,340 --> 01:05:44,820
Speaker 4: Man, typically not.

1080
01:05:45,980 --> 01:05:48,020
Speaker 7: I mean, I would have to be persuaded from the

1081
01:05:48,660 --> 01:05:52,740
Speaker 7: families of of this young couple, for example, if there

1082
01:05:52,820 --> 01:05:56,419
Speaker 7: if the girl was pregnant, for example, that might come

1083
01:05:56,460 --> 01:05:59,700
Speaker 7: into play. I would be doing the kind of counseling

1084
01:05:59,780 --> 01:06:02,700
Speaker 7: that would lead me to make an exception in a case.

1085
01:06:02,740 --> 01:06:04,860
Speaker 4: So you would treat the girl differently than you would

1086
01:06:04,860 --> 01:06:05,780
Speaker 4: treat the man.

1087
01:06:07,460 --> 01:06:08,900
Speaker 7: I would treat her differently.

1088
01:06:08,700 --> 01:06:09,260
Speaker 4: Well, you wouldn't.

1089
01:06:09,260 --> 01:06:11,020
Speaker 3: You might marry an eighteen year old girl where you

1090
01:06:11,180 --> 01:06:13,660
Speaker 3: whether where you wouldn't marry, say an eighteen or nineteen

1091
01:06:13,740 --> 01:06:17,820
Speaker 3: year old boy man in a gay relationship.

1092
01:06:19,900 --> 01:06:22,140
Speaker 7: It would depend up on the circumstances. I would treat

1093
01:06:22,180 --> 01:06:23,780
Speaker 7: it very individually.

1094
01:06:24,380 --> 01:06:26,780
Speaker 2: By the way, let me return it. I understand the

1095
01:06:26,860 --> 01:06:29,340
Speaker 2: point of your question, and let me return though. Let

1096
01:06:29,420 --> 01:06:31,780
Speaker 2: me just explain to everybody, and any wants free to comment,

1097
01:06:31,900 --> 01:06:35,220
Speaker 2: why it bothers me to say God created people gay,

1098
01:06:35,780 --> 01:06:38,580
Speaker 2: and there are people who may well be born gay.

1099
01:06:38,660 --> 01:06:41,740
Speaker 2: But the notion that God created that way obviously, first

1100
01:06:41,780 --> 01:06:44,580
Speaker 2: of all, it would violate the notion because why would

1101
01:06:44,620 --> 01:06:47,580
Speaker 2: God tell us to do something which he made it

1102
01:06:47,700 --> 01:06:53,220
Speaker 2: impossible to fulfill. It seems that either you have to

1103
01:06:53,260 --> 01:06:54,780
Speaker 2: give up one or the other. You have to give

1104
01:06:54,860 --> 01:06:56,460
Speaker 2: up the scripture or you have to give up a

1105
01:06:56,500 --> 01:06:58,700
Speaker 2: good God. And I'm not prepared to give up either.

1106
01:06:59,180 --> 01:07:01,020
Speaker 2: So I don't believe that God does that. But let

1107
01:07:01,100 --> 01:07:04,380
Speaker 2: me tell you what hit me when this language becomes

1108
01:07:05,020 --> 01:07:09,380
Speaker 2: pervasive about the diversity idea in the deaf community in

1109
01:07:09,460 --> 01:07:15,300
Speaker 2: this country. There is organized opposition to the cochlear implant.

1110
01:07:15,860 --> 01:07:18,499
Speaker 2: This is an implant in the ear that can give

1111
01:07:18,820 --> 01:07:23,460
Speaker 2: children or adults hearing who do not have it. The

1112
01:07:23,660 --> 01:07:27,300
Speaker 2: deaf community is opposed to it because it implies that

1113
01:07:27,540 --> 01:07:33,500
Speaker 2: death is second best to hearing, that there're second class

1114
01:07:33,540 --> 01:07:35,980
Speaker 2: citizens to death. Who are you to tell us that

1115
01:07:36,140 --> 01:07:39,660
Speaker 2: sign language is not every bit as rich at hearing language.

1116
01:07:40,420 --> 01:07:45,460
Speaker 2: And so because of this pervasive ideology of hey, everything

1117
01:07:45,620 --> 01:07:48,900
Speaker 2: is good and God wants diversity, the death have adopted that.

1118
01:07:49,780 --> 01:07:52,419
Speaker 2: So there are vast numbers of kids who could hear

1119
01:07:52,820 --> 01:07:55,700
Speaker 2: who are deprived of hearing by parents and a deaf

1120
01:07:55,780 --> 01:07:58,660
Speaker 2: community because it implies the kid is a second class

1121
01:07:58,660 --> 01:08:01,860
Speaker 2: citizen and that somehow God did not make him that way.

1122
01:08:03,820 --> 01:08:05,900
Speaker 2: I am curious how you would react to the deaf

1123
01:08:05,980 --> 01:08:09,340
Speaker 2: community pastor who says God created our children death and

1124
01:08:09,460 --> 01:08:11,380
Speaker 2: it is none of our business to change them.

1125
01:08:12,380 --> 01:08:15,900
Speaker 7: I think that we're very aware that if there's a

1126
01:08:16,820 --> 01:08:21,700
Speaker 7: cure for something, in terms of offering the ability for

1127
01:08:21,820 --> 01:08:24,820
Speaker 7: someone to hear who cannot hear, that we would want

1128
01:08:24,860 --> 01:08:27,939
Speaker 7: to offer that to people. But I can understand where

1129
01:08:27,980 --> 01:08:30,420
Speaker 7: people who've been deaf for many, many years, and for

1130
01:08:30,620 --> 01:08:34,060
Speaker 7: whom that is a deeply ingrained part of how they

1131
01:08:34,180 --> 01:08:36,900
Speaker 7: understand themselves and how they've come to live their lives,

1132
01:08:37,540 --> 01:08:42,420
Speaker 7: that suddenly for people to say, oh, they must have

1133
01:08:42,660 --> 01:08:46,259
Speaker 7: this would be in some way to not honor their

1134
01:08:46,380 --> 01:08:48,339
Speaker 7: memories and experiences and life.

1135
01:08:48,460 --> 01:08:52,900
Speaker 2: Meaning, well, we don't honor Christian scientists who deprive their

1136
01:08:52,979 --> 01:08:54,260
Speaker 2: children of transfusions.

1137
01:08:56,740 --> 01:08:59,820
Speaker 7: I'm talking about the life experiences of people.

1138
01:08:59,979 --> 01:09:02,620
Speaker 2: I'm not talking about their life experience. Is that God

1139
01:09:02,780 --> 01:09:06,019
Speaker 2: cures illness. That is the basis of Mary Baker Eddie's

1140
01:09:06,740 --> 01:09:11,459
Speaker 2: pronouncements on sickness. I want to know where you're prepared

1141
01:09:11,540 --> 01:09:13,379
Speaker 2: to say diversity is sinful.

1142
01:09:14,939 --> 01:09:20,900
Speaker 7: I think diversity becomes sinful when the consequence of that

1143
01:09:21,059 --> 01:09:25,139
Speaker 7: diversity are leading to destructive kinds of things, and and

1144
01:09:25,660 --> 01:09:29,620
Speaker 7: when when also when people in the midst of diversity

1145
01:09:29,820 --> 01:09:34,059
Speaker 7: are not willing to honor it and to honor the

1146
01:09:34,180 --> 01:09:39,100
Speaker 7: diversity that's around us. The existence of institutions like slavery,

1147
01:09:39,260 --> 01:09:43,540
Speaker 7: of prejudice against ethnic minority people, of fear of people

1148
01:09:43,620 --> 01:09:47,660
Speaker 7: speaking other languages, of the different cultures that people are

1149
01:09:47,700 --> 01:09:52,299
Speaker 7: afraid of, and and not being because of the fear

1150
01:09:52,420 --> 01:09:56,660
Speaker 7: that enters in I think sometimes diversity is a great

1151
01:09:56,740 --> 01:10:01,740
Speaker 7: burden for people, But I think I think God rejoices

1152
01:10:02,180 --> 01:10:05,340
Speaker 7: in diversity and invites us to grow spiritually to the

1153
01:10:05,420 --> 01:10:09,419
Speaker 7: point where we learn to appreciate and love and celebrate

1154
01:10:09,500 --> 01:10:13,300
Speaker 7: that diversity when it when it lifts people up, and

1155
01:10:13,460 --> 01:10:17,420
Speaker 7: when it enhances their lives, and when it adds to

1156
01:10:17,580 --> 01:10:21,059
Speaker 7: the quality of life for more and more of God's children.

1157
01:10:22,099 --> 01:10:27,299
Speaker 7: It's when these things become destructive and divisive and hurtful

1158
01:10:27,340 --> 01:10:28,820
Speaker 7: to people that it's.

1159
01:10:28,740 --> 01:10:31,740
Speaker 2: Not destructive to be deaf. So why you have do

1160
01:10:31,780 --> 01:10:34,340
Speaker 2: you have a position? Would you say to a deaf

1161
01:10:34,420 --> 01:10:37,500
Speaker 2: parent who came to you as a pastor of Christianity,

1162
01:10:38,019 --> 01:10:41,180
Speaker 2: so you know what they want? The doctors say, my

1163
01:10:41,340 --> 01:10:44,780
Speaker 2: child could hear, but we're committed to the diversity of

1164
01:10:44,939 --> 01:10:48,500
Speaker 2: having deaf and hearing people. What would you say, I.

1165
01:10:48,500 --> 01:10:51,740
Speaker 7: Would in any if there's an opportunity for people to hear,

1166
01:10:51,939 --> 01:10:53,860
Speaker 7: I want to encourage them to hear. I think it's

1167
01:10:53,900 --> 01:10:55,900
Speaker 7: a wonderful gift to be able to I think.

1168
01:10:55,780 --> 01:10:59,019
Speaker 2: It's a wonderful gift to make love to the opposite sex. Great,

1169
01:10:59,420 --> 01:11:06,979
Speaker 2: do it? Okay? Can you hear that? I'm told by

1170
01:11:07,059 --> 01:11:07,940
Speaker 2: the Christian.

1171
01:11:07,660 --> 01:11:15,340
Speaker 3: Passione, let's close in prayer and Dennis Dennis, can I

1172
01:11:15,420 --> 01:11:17,500
Speaker 3: piggyback on that? He is the term destructive twice?

1173
01:11:17,580 --> 01:11:17,780
Speaker 10: In that?

1174
01:11:18,340 --> 01:11:23,059
Speaker 3: Do you believe that the homosexual act act as practice

1175
01:11:23,099 --> 01:11:25,180
Speaker 3: within the gay community today is destructive?

1176
01:11:27,380 --> 01:11:34,100
Speaker 7: Clearly in sexual relations there are times when sex is destructive.

1177
01:11:34,180 --> 01:11:38,019
Speaker 7: Sometimes in heterosexual marriages there is abuse, and there is.

1178
01:11:38,140 --> 01:11:40,059
Speaker 4: No I'm not talking about abuse. I'm just talking about

1179
01:11:40,700 --> 01:11:42,620
Speaker 4: but but the but.

1180
01:11:42,860 --> 01:11:48,259
Speaker 7: In a committed, loving gay relationship, I don't believe their

1181
01:11:48,939 --> 01:11:52,539
Speaker 7: relating sexually is destructive. In fact, I think it probably

1182
01:11:52,660 --> 01:11:55,019
Speaker 7: strengthens the bond of their love and care.

1183
01:11:55,099 --> 01:11:56,580
Speaker 4: Physically destructive though.

1184
01:11:59,660 --> 01:12:02,299
Speaker 2: Disproportionate amount I mean, let's let's call a space of space.

1185
01:12:02,380 --> 01:12:04,580
Speaker 2: You mean the disproportionate amount of aids that is in

1186
01:12:05,099 --> 01:12:07,419
Speaker 2: just as syphilis.

1187
01:12:07,620 --> 01:12:11,379
Speaker 3: San Francisco announced this last year that in the bath houses,

1188
01:12:11,620 --> 01:12:13,939
Speaker 3: the rise of syphilis and goanner rhea and so many

1189
01:12:13,979 --> 01:12:17,460
Speaker 3: other sexually transmitted diseases is becoming epidemic again.

1190
01:12:17,700 --> 01:12:18,299
Speaker 4: I think.

1191
01:12:18,540 --> 01:12:23,460
Speaker 7: I think promiscuity and irresponsible sex has consequences that are destructive.

1192
01:12:23,540 --> 01:12:24,500
Speaker 2: There's no doubt about it.

1193
01:12:24,979 --> 01:12:28,979
Speaker 5: Okay, Dennis, I like to comment, sure, where are things

1194
01:12:29,019 --> 01:12:32,059
Speaker 5: things that things have become so confused in Judaism. I

1195
01:12:32,140 --> 01:12:35,139
Speaker 5: think you have astutely pointed out that arguments from nature

1196
01:12:35,780 --> 01:12:38,299
Speaker 5: are very difficult to comport with our with our ideas

1197
01:12:38,340 --> 01:12:41,219
Speaker 5: of God, because God has created diversity among human beings.

1198
01:12:41,260 --> 01:12:43,500
Speaker 5: As you've pointed out over here, there are pedophiles, there

1199
01:12:43,500 --> 01:12:46,059
Speaker 5: are people who attracted in Cstwiss relationships. If one were

1200
01:12:46,140 --> 01:12:49,419
Speaker 5: to say, because there is diversity and and it happens

1201
01:12:49,460 --> 01:12:53,180
Speaker 5: in nature, therefore God must approve it is is inconsistent

1202
01:12:53,220 --> 01:12:56,620
Speaker 5: and paradoxical of itself. So God might say, all these

1203
01:12:56,660 --> 01:12:58,780
Speaker 5: things are part of nature, but I only approve of this.

1204
01:12:58,979 --> 01:13:01,180
Speaker 5: Let's say what scripture says? So how does how do

1205
01:13:01,260 --> 01:13:04,900
Speaker 5: things become so confused in Judaism? We have in rabbinic

1206
01:13:05,019 --> 01:13:09,339
Speaker 5: Judaism now and then the examination of a scriptural verse

1207
01:13:10,019 --> 01:13:14,900
Speaker 5: that that the biblic Biblical Rabbinic Judaism then deconstructs and

1208
01:13:15,220 --> 01:13:17,700
Speaker 5: takes the validity out of the verse by interpreting it

1209
01:13:18,380 --> 01:13:21,900
Speaker 5: into uh into not being actionable. And it seems that

1210
01:13:21,939 --> 01:13:24,740
Speaker 5: the rabbinic motivation is, for lack of a better term, ethics,

1211
01:13:25,300 --> 01:13:29,580
Speaker 5: meaning unnecessary harm is caused to a person. Okay, So

1212
01:13:29,740 --> 01:13:31,979
Speaker 5: for example, in last week's tour portion, we have the

1213
01:13:33,059 --> 01:13:37,059
Speaker 5: commandment regarding the gluttonous and rebellious son, and it says

1214
01:13:37,099 --> 01:13:38,979
Speaker 5: if he can, if he conducts himself in a certain way,

1215
01:13:38,979 --> 01:13:41,300
Speaker 5: he'll be stoned to death. And then you have in

1216
01:13:41,380 --> 01:13:45,179
Speaker 5: the Book of in the Tractate, Senthedron and the Talmud.

1217
01:13:45,620 --> 01:13:50,379
Speaker 5: As the rabbis go through this, this the scriptural passage,

1218
01:13:51,260 --> 01:13:53,500
Speaker 5: they interpret in such a way where one rabbi finally

1219
01:13:53,540 --> 01:13:56,139
Speaker 5: says there never was one, there never will be one.

1220
01:13:56,860 --> 01:13:58,860
Speaker 5: So one would say, why did God put it in

1221
01:13:58,939 --> 01:14:00,820
Speaker 5: the Bible if there never was one and never will

1222
01:14:00,900 --> 01:14:02,939
Speaker 5: be one. One of the answers is to make the

1223
01:14:02,939 --> 01:14:04,820
Speaker 5: thirteen year old kids study it and think they might

1224
01:14:04,900 --> 01:14:05,340
Speaker 5: be the one.

1225
01:14:05,580 --> 01:14:12,500
Speaker 2: Okay, pages at him exactly that there's always a first.

1226
01:14:13,660 --> 01:14:15,180
Speaker 5: But in any case one could say that you know,

1227
01:14:15,220 --> 01:14:16,740
Speaker 5: for example, iye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.

1228
01:14:16,820 --> 01:14:18,939
Speaker 5: Some would say that that, some would say the Bible

1229
01:14:18,979 --> 01:14:20,580
Speaker 5: actually meant it, and not to say the rabbi Is

1230
01:14:21,180 --> 01:14:23,260
Speaker 5: took that out because it seemed unnecessarily cruel, and there

1231
01:14:23,300 --> 01:14:26,500
Speaker 5: are other ways, for example, monetary compensation. So it seems

1232
01:14:26,500 --> 01:14:30,580
Speaker 5: that there is an underlying a hermeneutical or interpretive motif

1233
01:14:30,820 --> 01:14:35,620
Speaker 5: in Rabbinic Judaism that sometimes that dictates of scripture are

1234
01:14:35,700 --> 01:14:38,700
Speaker 5: softened because of ethical concern. Then you move into the

1235
01:14:38,740 --> 01:14:41,900
Speaker 5: modern period where in reform Judaism the notion of ethical

1236
01:14:41,939 --> 01:14:45,299
Speaker 5: monotheism became important. In fact, we have notable authors today

1237
01:14:45,300 --> 01:14:48,660
Speaker 5: who actually made their introduction into Jewish literary circles with

1238
01:14:48,740 --> 01:14:50,740
Speaker 5: the term ethical monotheism. You know, you might know who

1239
01:14:50,780 --> 01:14:54,500
Speaker 5: some of those people are, Dennis. And part of the

1240
01:14:54,540 --> 01:14:57,460
Speaker 5: teaching ethical monotheism is we believe in one God who

1241
01:14:57,580 --> 01:15:01,300
Speaker 5: primarily teaches ethics, and ethics is mostly about harm being

1242
01:15:01,420 --> 01:15:04,939
Speaker 5: caused between people. So therefore, if one says in a

1243
01:15:05,019 --> 01:15:08,299
Speaker 5: given act, no harm between people is caused because they're

1244
01:15:08,300 --> 01:15:12,300
Speaker 5: consenting adults, one might say, therefore it is not unethical.

1245
01:15:12,740 --> 01:15:15,660
Speaker 5: It might be ethical, and therefore religion does not have

1246
01:15:15,820 --> 01:15:19,620
Speaker 5: the job of prohibiting it if religion is basically ethics.

1247
01:15:20,019 --> 01:15:23,059
Speaker 5: So in a sit situation today, again especially reform Judaism,

1248
01:15:23,099 --> 01:15:26,140
Speaker 5: but it has leaked over into conservative Judaism, the primacy

1249
01:15:26,260 --> 01:15:29,820
Speaker 5: of ethics has diminished the idea that God can command

1250
01:15:30,019 --> 01:15:34,539
Speaker 5: people morally when there's no moral when there's no perceived

1251
01:15:34,820 --> 01:15:37,740
Speaker 5: moral victim. And that's one of the great problems today

1252
01:15:38,059 --> 01:15:39,780
Speaker 5: and one reason I think this debate has to be

1253
01:15:39,820 --> 01:15:42,700
Speaker 5: conducted it opened, is we have to really examine what

1254
01:15:42,860 --> 01:15:45,379
Speaker 5: is morality? Is that only when there is a victim

1255
01:15:45,740 --> 01:15:47,460
Speaker 5: is there a kind of a morality that simply between

1256
01:15:47,540 --> 01:15:50,620
Speaker 5: us and God? Is abstinence a moral position? Even though

1257
01:15:50,660 --> 01:15:52,740
Speaker 5: when a person says you're not hurting me if you

1258
01:15:52,780 --> 01:15:54,700
Speaker 5: make love to me, I'm not hurt. I want you

1259
01:15:54,780 --> 01:15:56,380
Speaker 5: to make love to me, in person says, well, it's

1260
01:15:56,380 --> 01:15:59,500
Speaker 5: still not moral. What does that mean when there's no victim?

1261
01:15:59,580 --> 01:16:03,139
Speaker 5: But it's morality if religion is essentially about ethics. So

1262
01:16:03,260 --> 01:16:06,900
Speaker 5: one of the great confusions that we're addressing now, I

1263
01:16:06,979 --> 01:16:10,660
Speaker 5: think in liberal Judaism is the statement that Judaism is

1264
01:16:10,780 --> 01:16:15,179
Speaker 5: essentially ethical. Monotheism was a mistake, and I think we're

1265
01:16:15,220 --> 01:16:18,579
Speaker 5: now right now we're bearing some other fruit of that declaration.

1266
01:16:18,700 --> 01:16:21,700
Speaker 5: I don't think it's entirely wrong. I just think it's

1267
01:16:21,740 --> 01:16:25,139
Speaker 5: a wrong emphasis as we try to conduct the debate

1268
01:16:25,540 --> 01:16:28,019
Speaker 5: on the many things that are left out of ethics,

1269
01:16:28,140 --> 01:16:30,820
Speaker 5: if we understand ethics meaning harm cause between people.

1270
01:16:31,140 --> 01:16:36,099
Speaker 2: This was a profound, nice, veiled attack on my life's work.

1271
01:16:37,939 --> 01:16:42,180
Speaker 2: But that's okay. But that's okay. I perfectly accept it.

1272
01:16:43,260 --> 01:16:44,900
Speaker 2: It's not the first time I've said it to Dennis.

1273
01:16:45,460 --> 01:16:47,780
Speaker 2: You're not going to get very valid. It's very valid.

1274
01:16:47,820 --> 01:16:50,620
Speaker 2: It's a very valid criticism I want it is it's

1275
01:16:50,620 --> 01:16:53,780
Speaker 2: a very important one. What really that's it's it's a

1276
01:16:53,860 --> 01:16:58,139
Speaker 2: great question is what does victimless mean? And when is

1277
01:16:58,220 --> 01:17:01,820
Speaker 2: it applicable? And these are enormous and I will tell

1278
01:17:01,860 --> 01:17:07,219
Speaker 2: you where in this specific issue where it may apply,

1279
01:17:07,380 --> 01:17:10,259
Speaker 2: and that is raising children. First. I do want to say, though,

1280
01:17:10,340 --> 01:17:12,220
Speaker 2: to the pastor, and you don't have to react it.

1281
01:17:12,460 --> 01:17:16,059
Speaker 2: Obviously you're free to, but you don't have to. H

1282
01:17:18,059 --> 01:17:22,580
Speaker 2: I understand why a gay person would think that the

1283
01:17:23,099 --> 01:17:27,179
Speaker 2: maintaining the heterosexual ideal renders him or her a second

1284
01:17:27,260 --> 01:17:32,660
Speaker 2: class citizen. But I don't believe that that is the

1285
01:17:32,780 --> 01:17:36,939
Speaker 2: case at all, any more than Arnold Schwarzenegger is a

1286
01:17:37,099 --> 01:17:40,660
Speaker 2: second class citizen because he cannot run for president, but

1287
01:17:40,820 --> 01:17:45,139
Speaker 2: I can. He cannot run for president because he was

1288
01:17:45,220 --> 01:17:48,019
Speaker 2: not born in the United States. Does that make him

1289
01:17:48,059 --> 01:17:51,620
Speaker 2: a second class citizen? The idea that he, the governor

1290
01:17:51,700 --> 01:17:58,019
Speaker 2: of California, is a second class citizen is inconceivable. But

1291
01:17:58,180 --> 01:18:00,820
Speaker 2: there is an ideal that to run for president you

1292
01:18:00,939 --> 01:18:03,939
Speaker 2: are born in the US. There is an ideal that,

1293
01:18:04,099 --> 01:18:09,059
Speaker 2: to at least up until Saturday night in California, that

1294
01:18:09,180 --> 01:18:11,580
Speaker 2: to get a driver's license you have to actually be

1295
01:18:11,740 --> 01:18:17,059
Speaker 2: legally here. There is a movement that of others who

1296
01:18:17,140 --> 01:18:20,099
Speaker 2: don't like any of these ideals because they seem to

1297
01:18:20,220 --> 01:18:23,340
Speaker 2: imploy that the other person is second class citizen if

1298
01:18:23,380 --> 01:18:27,259
Speaker 2: we teach English only in schools, and implies Hispanic kids

1299
01:18:27,340 --> 01:18:31,300
Speaker 2: or second class citizens. To me, that is nonsense. My

1300
01:18:31,500 --> 01:18:33,900
Speaker 2: father's native language was not English. He grew up in

1301
01:18:33,939 --> 01:18:37,540
Speaker 2: a Yiddish speaking home. If we had adopted the attitude

1302
01:18:37,580 --> 01:18:39,740
Speaker 2: that he's a second class citizen because they don't teach

1303
01:18:39,740 --> 01:18:42,500
Speaker 2: in Yiddish, I wouldn't be a talk show host because

1304
01:18:42,500 --> 01:18:44,460
Speaker 2: I'd have grown up in a family that didn't speak

1305
01:18:44,500 --> 01:18:48,580
Speaker 2: English as fluently and didn't speak at accent free. Thank god.

1306
01:18:48,660 --> 01:18:50,500
Speaker 2: He grew up in an English speaking school, and he

1307
01:18:50,540 --> 01:18:55,099
Speaker 2: spoke Yiddish to his parents who didn't speak English. So

1308
01:18:55,300 --> 01:18:58,420
Speaker 2: this notion that because there are standards, those who don't

1309
01:18:58,660 --> 01:19:02,180
Speaker 2: or cannot live by them are second class citizens I

1310
01:19:02,340 --> 01:19:07,099
Speaker 2: reject at priori. A homosexual is not a second class

1311
01:19:07,099 --> 01:19:11,339
Speaker 2: citizen because for whatever reason he can't live heterosexually. That's

1312
01:19:11,420 --> 01:19:15,860
Speaker 2: nonsense to me. It's a total non sequitur. And the

1313
01:19:15,939 --> 01:19:18,540
Speaker 2: Schwarzenegger example is the one I hold. Now, you're free

1314
01:19:18,620 --> 01:19:26,099
Speaker 2: to react, assume you want to, so go ahead. I

1315
01:19:26,180 --> 01:19:26,500
Speaker 2: think that.

1316
01:19:30,220 --> 01:19:35,500
Speaker 7: There's a certain privilege that is granted in our society,

1317
01:19:35,780 --> 01:19:39,460
Speaker 7: which I mean clearly where most people are heterosexual, or

1318
01:19:39,540 --> 01:19:43,740
Speaker 7: the institution of marriage grants certain duties, responsibilities as well

1319
01:19:43,780 --> 01:19:49,580
Speaker 7: as privileges rights. And so when you deny a certain

1320
01:19:49,700 --> 01:19:53,220
Speaker 7: portion of your population who were born and raised in

1321
01:19:53,300 --> 01:19:55,939
Speaker 7: this country, who are not immigrants, who don't speak a

1322
01:19:55,979 --> 01:20:00,219
Speaker 7: different language, but who discover integral to who they are,

1323
01:20:01,380 --> 01:20:05,979
Speaker 7: that they are not heterosexual, but they are homosexual, and

1324
01:20:06,140 --> 01:20:12,220
Speaker 7: who want to celebrate and enjoy the same rights and

1325
01:20:12,380 --> 01:20:18,099
Speaker 7: privileges of every other citizen of this country, but because

1326
01:20:18,939 --> 01:20:24,540
Speaker 7: they are homosexual, cannot avail themselves of that institution which

1327
01:20:24,700 --> 01:20:30,019
Speaker 7: grants certain rights and responsibilities. Then there's a feeling on

1328
01:20:30,140 --> 01:20:33,379
Speaker 7: their part of this is like being a second class citizen.

1329
01:20:34,260 --> 01:20:41,099
Speaker 7: Why aren't these rights and responsibilities and privileges available when

1330
01:20:41,979 --> 01:20:43,979
Speaker 7: you are a gay person as it is for a

1331
01:20:44,059 --> 01:20:47,500
Speaker 7: heterosexual person. And I think that's the civil rights issue

1332
01:20:47,979 --> 01:20:49,700
Speaker 7: part of it that has experienced there.

1333
01:20:51,340 --> 01:20:54,500
Speaker 9: Okay, yeah, I've been kind of quiet, so I'm going

1334
01:20:54,540 --> 01:20:58,740
Speaker 9: to take the floor for a while, thank you. I

1335
01:20:58,900 --> 01:21:00,979
Speaker 9: like to comment on a few things. One what you

1336
01:21:01,099 --> 01:21:03,620
Speaker 9: said about encouraging people who are gay to live together,

1337
01:21:03,700 --> 01:21:06,299
Speaker 9: but live together as brother and brother, sister and sister.

1338
01:21:06,939 --> 01:21:09,780
Speaker 9: I'm very fond of quoting the late Cardinal Basil Hume,

1339
01:21:10,260 --> 01:21:13,939
Speaker 9: who was Archbishop of Westminster and London, when he wrote

1340
01:21:14,019 --> 01:21:17,420
Speaker 9: in a pastoral letter on the subject of homosexuality. He said,

1341
01:21:18,460 --> 01:21:23,540
Speaker 9: every experience of love, even love between two men or

1342
01:21:23,700 --> 01:21:30,860
Speaker 9: two women, is an experience of God. For God is love. However,

1343
01:21:31,979 --> 01:21:36,780
Speaker 9: not every expression of love is godly, and I think

1344
01:21:36,860 --> 01:21:41,700
Speaker 9: that's a very good middle course to take to say that, yes,

1345
01:21:41,860 --> 01:21:45,900
Speaker 9: two members of the same sex can have a very enriching, wonderful,

1346
01:21:46,099 --> 01:21:50,620
Speaker 9: caring and life promoting relationship, but it need not have

1347
01:21:50,820 --> 01:21:56,099
Speaker 9: expressions which are themselves contrary to God's expressed will. The

1348
01:21:56,180 --> 01:21:59,379
Speaker 9: second thing I would like to paraphrase is a homily

1349
01:21:59,500 --> 01:22:03,179
Speaker 9: given by our own Archbishop, Cardinal Roger Mahoney several years ago,

1350
01:22:03,660 --> 01:22:07,139
Speaker 9: when he celebrated a Mass in the tenth anniversary of

1351
01:22:07,260 --> 01:22:10,580
Speaker 9: the archdioces and Ministry to the gay and lesbian Catholic community.

1352
01:22:11,340 --> 01:22:16,420
Speaker 9: He said, we are confronted with the question is homosexuality

1353
01:22:16,820 --> 01:22:22,139
Speaker 9: a puzzle or a mystery. If it's a puzzle, then

1354
01:22:22,220 --> 01:22:23,900
Speaker 9: it means we're going to try to find a solution

1355
01:22:24,059 --> 01:22:30,420
Speaker 9: as to why some people have a homosexual orientation. But

1356
01:22:30,540 --> 01:22:33,460
Speaker 9: it isn't a puzzle, it's a mystery. And mystery doesn't

1357
01:22:33,500 --> 01:22:37,700
Speaker 9: invite us to seek solutions. Rather, mystery invites us to

1358
01:22:37,900 --> 01:22:44,099
Speaker 9: seek the depth and to see the hand of God,

1359
01:22:44,620 --> 01:22:48,780
Speaker 9: even in situations where we might not fully understand what

1360
01:22:48,939 --> 01:22:51,499
Speaker 9: it is that's being given to us or being revealed

1361
01:22:51,540 --> 01:22:55,979
Speaker 9: to us. And so what causes homosexuality isn't a puzzle,

1362
01:22:56,340 --> 01:23:00,259
Speaker 9: it's a mystery. My personal belief is that people are

1363
01:23:00,380 --> 01:23:06,580
Speaker 9: born with a certain predisposition, but that there are nurturing

1364
01:23:06,740 --> 01:23:09,380
Speaker 9: factors that have to kick in in order for that

1365
01:23:09,939 --> 01:23:15,099
Speaker 9: predisposition to find its way into a homosexual orientation. And

1366
01:23:15,180 --> 01:23:17,059
Speaker 9: then thirdly, I like to comment on what the doctor

1367
01:23:17,099 --> 01:23:20,260
Speaker 9: Hanson said about gay marriage, which I believe is an

1368
01:23:20,260 --> 01:23:26,259
Speaker 9: oxym The reason society gives benefits and privileges to marriage

1369
01:23:26,620 --> 01:23:30,180
Speaker 9: isn't for the individuals involved. It's for the good of society.

1370
01:23:31,019 --> 01:23:34,460
Speaker 9: It's a case of individual rights versus the common good.

1371
01:23:35,420 --> 01:23:37,820
Speaker 9: Two men and two women entering into a marriage like

1372
01:23:37,939 --> 01:23:42,620
Speaker 9: relationship does not offer to society the same benefits as

1373
01:23:42,979 --> 01:23:45,780
Speaker 9: a man and a woman who enter into a heterosexual

1374
01:23:46,220 --> 01:23:49,340
Speaker 9: marital relationship in which they raise a family. This is

1375
01:23:49,420 --> 01:23:53,300
Speaker 9: the basic cell upon which society is based, and it

1376
01:23:53,420 --> 01:23:57,019
Speaker 9: is at our own peril as a society that we

1377
01:23:57,180 --> 01:24:01,420
Speaker 9: diminish the meaning and the value of marriage by calling

1378
01:24:01,540 --> 01:24:03,379
Speaker 9: non marital relationships marriages.

1379
01:24:05,180 --> 01:24:13,700
Speaker 2: I thank you. I want to get to one other thing,

1380
01:24:13,740 --> 01:24:15,820
Speaker 2: the raising of children. But we are going to take

1381
01:24:15,939 --> 01:24:19,420
Speaker 2: questions or comments. Actually questions would be better in this case.

1382
01:24:20,740 --> 01:24:23,500
Speaker 2: Am I beeping here? This is I got a new

1383
01:24:23,580 --> 01:24:25,979
Speaker 2: thing forgive me? It is all right.

1384
01:24:26,540 --> 01:24:28,780
Speaker 9: It's a call from that big station in Minneapolis.

1385
01:24:30,019 --> 01:24:30,460
Speaker 2: That's right.

1386
01:24:31,900 --> 01:24:33,620
Speaker 4: Remind you that marriages man and woman.

1387
01:24:35,019 --> 01:24:38,860
Speaker 2: That's what it said. Uh, do we have a roving

1388
01:24:38,979 --> 01:24:43,059
Speaker 2: microphone here, do we yes, who's who's in charge of

1389
01:24:43,099 --> 01:24:46,780
Speaker 2: the roving microphone? It's it's over the microphone is over there.

1390
01:24:47,860 --> 01:24:50,139
Speaker 2: All right, we're going to get so let's let's take

1391
01:24:50,180 --> 01:24:55,059
Speaker 2: some of your questions, because the time is flying, as

1392
01:24:55,140 --> 01:24:58,380
Speaker 2: they say. And I want to raise the issue of

1393
01:24:58,740 --> 01:25:01,820
Speaker 2: the family and the raising of kids because the final

1394
01:25:01,939 --> 01:25:03,979
Speaker 2: as a final issue here. But let's get some of

1395
01:25:04,059 --> 01:25:07,460
Speaker 2: your comments or questions. All I asked, I don't care, frankly,

1396
01:25:07,460 --> 01:25:08,939
Speaker 2: if it's a comment or a question. I care if

1397
01:25:08,979 --> 01:25:12,660
Speaker 2: it's brief. That's the only thing. Make it brief. Yes, please,

1398
01:25:13,140 --> 01:25:13,820
Speaker 2: I have a question.

1399
01:25:14,059 --> 01:25:17,900
Speaker 11: You've been discussing homosexual relationships, and in discussing it, you've

1400
01:25:18,099 --> 01:25:21,580
Speaker 11: said several of you have said that when you have

1401
01:25:21,820 --> 01:25:28,740
Speaker 11: a committed, loving, marital relationship heterosexual with pro creative sexual

1402
01:25:28,860 --> 01:25:30,099
Speaker 11: relations that that was.

1403
01:25:31,580 --> 01:25:32,059
Speaker 2: A good thing.

1404
01:25:32,260 --> 01:25:38,179
Speaker 11: What about marriages that, for whatever reason, are having sexual

1405
01:25:38,260 --> 01:25:41,220
Speaker 11: relationships that are described as what I just said, that

1406
01:25:41,580 --> 01:25:45,500
Speaker 11: are of course having sexual union without the intent for

1407
01:25:46,140 --> 01:25:49,740
Speaker 11: pro creative purposes, whether it's either age or simply a

1408
01:25:49,860 --> 01:25:51,099
Speaker 11: desire not to have children.

1409
01:25:52,780 --> 01:25:56,219
Speaker 9: Well, in the Catholic understanding, it would be that acts

1410
01:25:56,260 --> 01:25:59,179
Speaker 9: of sexual intercourse be open to the transmission of life.

1411
01:25:59,180 --> 01:26:04,419
Speaker 9: There's no requirement much contrary to popular opinion about Catholic

1412
01:26:04,939 --> 01:26:08,300
Speaker 9: sexual morality, there's no requirement that when couples engage in

1413
01:26:08,460 --> 01:26:11,500
Speaker 9: relations that they have to intend to create new life

1414
01:26:11,500 --> 01:26:14,180
Speaker 9: at that particular moment. What's required is that there's the

1415
01:26:14,300 --> 01:26:16,700
Speaker 9: openness to new life. And even when you get into

1416
01:26:16,780 --> 01:26:20,019
Speaker 9: situations where one or both are sterile, or you're talking

1417
01:26:20,059 --> 01:26:23,019
Speaker 9: about a older couple, you know they are engaging in

1418
01:26:23,099 --> 01:26:26,260
Speaker 9: the act which is itself proper to the generation of

1419
01:26:26,300 --> 01:26:29,860
Speaker 9: a new life and therefore is morallylicit. Whereas when you're

1420
01:26:29,860 --> 01:26:33,939
Speaker 9: talking about two men or two women, as doctor David

1421
01:26:33,979 --> 01:26:36,300
Speaker 9: Rubins said in his book Everything you always want to

1422
01:26:36,340 --> 01:26:39,179
Speaker 9: know about sex, but we're afraid to ask. Two plugs,

1423
01:26:39,340 --> 01:26:52,780
Speaker 9: two sockets, no electricity. Okay, that was brief, wasn't it.

1424
01:26:53,099 --> 01:26:56,019
Speaker 2: Yeah, any other comments on the comic question.

1425
01:26:56,140 --> 01:26:58,219
Speaker 5: I just I mean, your question goes to the heart

1426
01:26:58,300 --> 01:27:02,540
Speaker 5: of my statement. Meaning, if I believe that the ideal

1427
01:27:02,620 --> 01:27:06,180
Speaker 5: is monogamous heterosexual approcreated marriage between two people, and I

1428
01:27:06,180 --> 01:27:10,500
Speaker 5: should say loving other person might say we don't intend

1429
01:27:10,540 --> 01:27:12,660
Speaker 5: to have children, and I would say, well, that's not

1430
01:27:12,740 --> 01:27:15,380
Speaker 5: the ideal. If you can have children, that's one thing

1431
01:27:15,660 --> 01:27:18,419
Speaker 5: if you could, but you choose not to, I wouldn't

1432
01:27:18,420 --> 01:27:21,300
Speaker 5: be indifferent. There's been time, and as a rabbi and

1433
01:27:21,300 --> 01:27:24,260
Speaker 5: as a counselor, I've tried to persuade people who can

1434
01:27:24,380 --> 01:27:27,580
Speaker 5: have children who choose not to have children. Sometimes they say, look,

1435
01:27:27,700 --> 01:27:29,540
Speaker 5: we're just not going to have kids. I'm sad for them,

1436
01:27:29,660 --> 01:27:31,900
Speaker 5: but so it's not the ideal. That doesn't mean I

1437
01:27:31,900 --> 01:27:34,259
Speaker 5: don't think they're sanctity and love and I wouldn't officiate

1438
01:27:34,300 --> 01:27:36,460
Speaker 5: at their wedding, but I don't think it's the ideal.

1439
01:27:36,620 --> 01:27:39,419
Speaker 5: So I believe in an ideal. I believe that marriages

1440
01:27:39,500 --> 01:27:42,019
Speaker 5: should be life long. I happen to be divorced and remarried.

1441
01:27:42,620 --> 01:27:43,500
Speaker 2: Now now I don't.

1442
01:27:43,540 --> 01:27:48,580
Speaker 5: I'm I don't. I'm not the ideal. Okay, I'm glad

1443
01:27:48,620 --> 01:27:50,460
Speaker 5: I got divorced. I'm glad I got remarried. But the

1444
01:27:50,540 --> 01:27:52,019
Speaker 5: best thing would have been to get married to one

1445
01:27:52,059 --> 01:27:53,540
Speaker 5: person's stay married the rest of my life. That would

1446
01:27:53,540 --> 01:27:54,860
Speaker 5: have been ideal. I'm not gonna I'm not going to

1447
01:27:54,900 --> 01:27:56,580
Speaker 5: pretend that just because I didn't do it, that there

1448
01:27:56,660 --> 01:27:58,780
Speaker 5: wasn't an ideal. I wish I would have met my

1449
01:27:58,860 --> 01:27:59,299
Speaker 5: wife first.

1450
01:27:59,580 --> 01:28:00,179
Speaker 2: What can I say?

1451
01:28:01,420 --> 01:28:04,860
Speaker 5: So there's lots of people don't live according to the ideal.

1452
01:28:04,979 --> 01:28:06,780
Speaker 5: That doesn't mean they're less than others, just mean that

1453
01:28:07,180 --> 01:28:08,219
Speaker 5: they're not living the ideal.

1454
01:28:08,820 --> 01:28:13,139
Speaker 3: Evangelical community would probably not be as strong as a

1455
01:28:13,180 --> 01:28:17,540
Speaker 3: Catholic position on birth control, but they would certainly buy

1456
01:28:17,620 --> 01:28:20,500
Speaker 3: into Genesis too, that you know, man and a woman

1457
01:28:20,740 --> 01:28:24,740
Speaker 3: shall come together and the result of that shall be children.

1458
01:28:25,019 --> 01:28:30,220
Speaker 3: There's three purposes for sex in marriage. One is appropriation,

1459
01:28:31,380 --> 01:28:35,299
Speaker 3: one is pleasure, which is a nice thing Hebrews thirteen.

1460
01:28:35,380 --> 01:28:38,460
Speaker 3: The marriage bed is undefiled, so married couple, you know,

1461
01:28:38,540 --> 01:28:41,540
Speaker 3: there are no restraints on that. In the New Testament,

1462
01:28:41,580 --> 01:28:44,460
Speaker 3: it also talks about marriage being a picture between Christ

1463
01:28:44,500 --> 01:28:48,380
Speaker 3: and his church, that that's the union between God and

1464
01:28:48,580 --> 01:28:52,339
Speaker 3: his people. There is no well, I guess Genesis would

1465
01:28:52,340 --> 01:28:56,979
Speaker 3: be a command to be fruitful and multiply. That maybe

1466
01:28:57,019 --> 01:29:00,259
Speaker 3: one of those commands, at least within the Protestant area,

1467
01:29:00,340 --> 01:29:03,460
Speaker 3: we don't make as strict as some others. Maybe we should,

1468
01:29:04,340 --> 01:29:05,860
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, the best way to grow a

1469
01:29:05,939 --> 01:29:07,860
Speaker 3: church is to have everybody have fourteen children.

1470
01:29:09,260 --> 01:29:11,339
Speaker 2: That's right, you know, yes, please.

1471
01:29:13,220 --> 01:29:18,179
Speaker 10: I'm deeply troubled by the discussion itself.

1472
01:29:19,140 --> 01:29:19,540
Speaker 2: Its highs.

1473
01:29:19,620 --> 01:29:24,740
Speaker 10: The homosexuality. If I want to ask that does the

1474
01:29:24,900 --> 01:29:33,540
Speaker 10: scripture is verbatim, unchangeable, unthinkable, no context and word for word.

1475
01:29:34,420 --> 01:29:37,780
Speaker 10: If that is so, like the rabbi said in Deuteronomy

1476
01:29:37,860 --> 01:29:42,780
Speaker 10: twenty one that a randchild, irresponsible or rebellious child sholstone

1477
01:29:42,820 --> 01:29:45,540
Speaker 10: to death, we haven't seen many, even in the last

1478
01:29:45,580 --> 01:29:50,500
Speaker 10: thousand years, let alone maybe last five hundred years. The

1479
01:29:50,660 --> 01:29:55,660
Speaker 10: other thing is troubling that being led by feelings. My

1480
01:29:55,820 --> 01:30:01,340
Speaker 10: feelings are rampant, and if I translated want millions of

1481
01:30:01,460 --> 01:30:05,180
Speaker 10: my feelings to action, I would be very troubled and

1482
01:30:05,300 --> 01:30:08,979
Speaker 10: I would be in trouble. Okay, personally, I may not

1483
01:30:09,099 --> 01:30:12,820
Speaker 10: destroy anybody, but I'll be in troubled and I'll probably

1484
01:30:12,939 --> 01:30:17,259
Speaker 10: destroy in a cosmic sense to this society. My examples

1485
01:30:17,300 --> 01:30:20,299
Speaker 10: will not hold up very good. So should this scripture

1486
01:30:20,460 --> 01:30:25,540
Speaker 10: is so fluid everything goes because of feeling or should

1487
01:30:25,580 --> 01:30:28,459
Speaker 10: the scripture have some content with context?

1488
01:30:29,939 --> 01:30:32,979
Speaker 2: Right you are, he is delineating the dilemma. That's the

1489
01:30:33,059 --> 01:30:37,019
Speaker 2: tear that you was describing. Rabbi Finley, let me let

1490
01:30:37,099 --> 01:30:42,860
Speaker 2: me if I may. Since I've been a typically I

1491
01:30:42,860 --> 01:30:46,259
Speaker 2: wouldn't say quiet, but I non committal.

1492
01:30:46,860 --> 01:30:48,580
Speaker 4: I think your name is up on top there.

1493
01:30:48,740 --> 01:30:53,700
Speaker 2: So I'm allowed. So I'm allowed. Okay, I let me

1494
01:30:53,900 --> 01:30:55,860
Speaker 2: just deal with the law that you raised, and it

1495
01:30:55,979 --> 01:30:59,620
Speaker 2: was raised earlier to about stoning the rebellious child. I

1496
01:30:59,900 --> 01:31:05,139
Speaker 2: defend the Torah specifically in all of its difficult verses

1497
01:31:05,460 --> 01:31:09,179
Speaker 2: because I know that if I have a very powerful

1498
01:31:09,300 --> 01:31:13,939
Speaker 2: challenge from the left, and it's an honest challenge. Well, Dennis,

1499
01:31:14,099 --> 01:31:18,139
Speaker 2: you think Leviticus is right on homosexuality. Well you think

1500
01:31:18,180 --> 01:31:21,820
Speaker 2: it's right on stoning children. That's not to be in Leviticus.

1501
01:31:21,900 --> 01:31:26,059
Speaker 2: But does same Torah? Okay, Deuteronomy as it happens, is

1502
01:31:26,380 --> 01:31:30,300
Speaker 2: that right? Well, so I have to think, Look, if

1503
01:31:30,340 --> 01:31:33,340
Speaker 2: it's not right on stoning children who are rebellious, then

1504
01:31:33,380 --> 01:31:36,260
Speaker 2: how do I know it's right on homosexuality, which is

1505
01:31:36,380 --> 01:31:40,380
Speaker 2: exactly the left theological left position. Look, we take what

1506
01:31:40,500 --> 01:31:43,219
Speaker 2: we know is elevated, and there are things that are

1507
01:31:43,260 --> 01:31:46,299
Speaker 2: not elevated. But my problem with that is even deeper

1508
01:31:46,380 --> 01:31:49,019
Speaker 2: than my problem with the difficult verses, and that is

1509
01:31:49,300 --> 01:31:53,339
Speaker 2: then I am the religion I am, Dennis, is Tora.

1510
01:31:54,540 --> 01:31:58,460
Speaker 2: That's it. But that that's frightening beyond words, not because

1511
01:31:58,500 --> 01:32:02,500
Speaker 2: I'm frightened of you know, that's the end of my

1512
01:32:03,660 --> 01:32:07,220
Speaker 2: reliance on something that I've been relying on. Although that

1513
01:32:07,340 --> 01:32:09,820
Speaker 2: is a factor, it is because I now see moral

1514
01:32:09,860 --> 01:32:13,099
Speaker 2: anarchy on earth. Everybody will say that their tora is

1515
01:32:13,140 --> 01:32:16,740
Speaker 2: their tora, their testament is their testament. Now as it

1516
01:32:16,860 --> 01:32:19,580
Speaker 2: happens with that verse, I will tell you you want context,

1517
01:32:19,660 --> 01:32:21,540
Speaker 2: I'll give you a context, and you're right to ask

1518
01:32:21,620 --> 01:32:27,059
Speaker 2: for context. I think that Torah was unbelievably progressive with

1519
01:32:27,220 --> 01:32:32,459
Speaker 2: that law. Progressive, not regressive. How I'll tell you exactly

1520
01:32:32,540 --> 01:32:38,099
Speaker 2: how in all of human history parents owned children. They

1521
01:32:38,180 --> 01:32:41,580
Speaker 2: could kill them, beat them, do whatever they want with

1522
01:32:41,740 --> 01:32:46,700
Speaker 2: them without any repercussions. That is true unfortunately in much

1523
01:32:46,740 --> 01:32:48,939
Speaker 2: of the Arab world to this day, where if a

1524
01:32:49,099 --> 01:32:52,900
Speaker 2: daughter brings quote unquote dishonor to the family, she's murdered

1525
01:32:52,939 --> 01:32:57,780
Speaker 2: by a brother or a father. The idea was you

1526
01:32:57,939 --> 01:33:02,500
Speaker 2: could kill your child. The Torah made a brilliant way

1527
01:33:02,860 --> 01:33:05,939
Speaker 2: of getting it out of parents' ability. Hey, parents, oh,

1528
01:33:06,059 --> 01:33:08,500
Speaker 2: we're not taking away your authority to kill your child

1529
01:33:08,540 --> 01:33:11,500
Speaker 2: if you think your child deserves it, just you can't

1530
01:33:11,540 --> 01:33:14,860
Speaker 2: do it. The court only can do it. And the

1531
01:33:14,939 --> 01:33:17,740
Speaker 2: Talmeut is right, it never happened. What are you going

1532
01:33:17,820 --> 01:33:20,179
Speaker 2: to go to court? And the mother's gonna say, yeah, yeah,

1533
01:33:20,300 --> 01:33:25,540
Speaker 2: kill kill him. Go ahead, court get them. First of all,

1534
01:33:25,540 --> 01:33:27,500
Speaker 2: there's no mother in history you wanted to kill it.

1535
01:33:27,620 --> 01:33:29,300
Speaker 2: I mean, that's not true. Every mother wants to kill

1536
01:33:29,340 --> 01:33:34,540
Speaker 2: their child. I know there's no mother who seriously contemplated

1537
01:33:34,580 --> 01:33:38,019
Speaker 2: it beyond the emotion of the moment. And so they

1538
01:33:38,140 --> 01:33:40,820
Speaker 2: got child. They bring the child to the court, there's

1539
01:33:40,860 --> 01:33:44,460
Speaker 2: a whole trial. By that time, mommy's looking at the kid.

1540
01:33:44,580 --> 01:33:47,420
Speaker 2: Probably daddy is too. It's oh, come on, this is over.

1541
01:33:47,580 --> 01:33:49,939
Speaker 2: Let's go back Sean, and you know, we'll have a

1542
01:33:50,019 --> 01:33:54,540
Speaker 2: great life. It never happened, but the Torah brilliantly took

1543
01:33:54,620 --> 01:33:57,939
Speaker 2: it out of parents' hands. And I can show that

1544
01:33:58,099 --> 01:34:00,380
Speaker 2: with slavery, and I can show that with all the

1545
01:34:00,500 --> 01:34:06,340
Speaker 2: difficult issues, this is my Torah. It is right with

1546
01:34:06,820 --> 01:34:09,979
Speaker 2: I debated Alan Dershowitz, the Harvard law professor in New

1547
01:34:10,059 --> 01:34:13,979
Speaker 2: York three years ago, on judaism and huge crowd there

1548
01:34:14,059 --> 01:34:17,420
Speaker 2: and everything, and we differed on everything. If he thought

1549
01:34:17,460 --> 01:34:19,300
Speaker 2: too and two was something I thought too, and two

1550
01:34:19,380 --> 01:34:23,219
Speaker 2: was something else on everything. Finally, in about three quarters

1551
01:34:23,260 --> 01:34:26,220
Speaker 2: of the way in, you'll enjoy this, I think I

1552
01:34:26,380 --> 01:34:29,540
Speaker 2: said to I said, ladies, and gentlemen, I think I

1553
01:34:29,620 --> 01:34:33,059
Speaker 2: can summarize the difference between Professor Dershowitz and myself the

1554
01:34:33,140 --> 01:34:37,260
Speaker 2: following way. When Alan Dershowitz disagrees with the Torah, he

1555
01:34:37,420 --> 01:34:40,460
Speaker 2: thinks the Torah is wrong and he's right. When I

1556
01:34:40,580 --> 01:34:42,979
Speaker 2: disagree with the Torah, I think the Tora is right

1557
01:34:43,140 --> 01:34:47,180
Speaker 2: and I'm wrong. And then Dershowitz, Alan Dershowitz said, this

1558
01:34:47,340 --> 01:34:51,580
Speaker 2: is the first time tonight Dennis and I agree. That

1559
01:34:51,780 --> 01:34:55,220
Speaker 2: is exactly how he sees it when he differs, and

1560
01:34:55,380 --> 01:34:58,019
Speaker 2: that is pastor, with all respect, how I regard the

1561
01:34:58,260 --> 01:35:01,860
Speaker 2: entire religious left. When they disagree with the Bible, the

1562
01:35:01,939 --> 01:35:05,380
Speaker 2: Bible's wrong, Whereas when I disagree with the Bible, I

1563
01:35:05,460 --> 01:35:14,900
Speaker 2: try to figure out why I'm wrong. That's that's it. Okay,

1564
01:35:15,700 --> 01:35:17,660
Speaker 2: we have a microphone with somebody here, sir.

1565
01:35:18,099 --> 01:35:21,620
Speaker 12: Yes, Dennis's questions directed specifically to you, because I greatly

1566
01:35:21,700 --> 01:35:24,099
Speaker 12: respect you. I listened to you daily. A lot of

1567
01:35:24,220 --> 01:35:26,979
Speaker 12: my things that I do with my family are based

1568
01:35:27,019 --> 01:35:28,740
Speaker 12: on what I learned on your show, and I've listened

1569
01:35:28,740 --> 01:35:29,340
Speaker 12: to you, so thank you.

1570
01:35:29,580 --> 01:35:31,740
Speaker 2: Thank you for that. I know I'm getting prepared for

1571
01:35:31,860 --> 01:35:35,660
Speaker 2: an attack. Here we go. You're saying it anyway, here

1572
01:35:35,740 --> 01:35:35,900
Speaker 2: we go.

1573
01:35:36,580 --> 01:35:41,820
Speaker 12: I have four children twenty three, twenty one, sixteen, and fourteen.

1574
01:35:42,300 --> 01:35:44,580
Speaker 12: I'm a Protestant. I attend church. I read the Bible.

1575
01:35:44,580 --> 01:35:46,860
Speaker 12: I believe in the Bible. I try and teach my

1576
01:35:47,019 --> 01:35:51,139
Speaker 12: children ethical and moral decisions throughout their life. I have

1577
01:35:51,180 --> 01:35:54,259
Speaker 12: a sixteen year old son. He is not attracted to women.

1578
01:35:54,939 --> 01:35:57,820
Speaker 12: He he's open to be, he wants to be. He

1579
01:35:57,939 --> 01:36:01,500
Speaker 12: feels he's gay. He's come to me with concern about that.

1580
01:36:02,780 --> 01:36:06,740
Speaker 12: My question to you is do I need to fix

1581
01:36:06,860 --> 01:36:10,580
Speaker 12: him in order for him to be eternally saved?

1582
01:36:12,540 --> 01:36:17,540
Speaker 2: Oh well, since eternal salvation is a Christian concept, not

1583
01:36:17,620 --> 01:36:20,740
Speaker 2: a Jewish one specifically, I'll let Christians answer that the

1584
01:36:20,860 --> 01:36:25,540
Speaker 2: salvation question. But my position on having a child who's

1585
01:36:25,580 --> 01:36:27,700
Speaker 2: gay is you love that child every bit as much

1586
01:36:27,820 --> 01:36:29,979
Speaker 2: as any other child. Is a non issue. I don't

1587
01:36:29,979 --> 01:36:31,620
Speaker 2: think it's an issue to any of the people up

1588
01:36:31,700 --> 01:36:36,740
Speaker 2: here about the fix issue. I have no answer on

1589
01:36:36,860 --> 01:36:40,139
Speaker 2: that because I am absolutely agnostic on the question of

1590
01:36:40,260 --> 01:36:44,420
Speaker 2: whether a human can change in that way. The reason

1591
01:36:44,500 --> 01:36:47,540
Speaker 2: that I'm not entirely opposed to the belief is because

1592
01:36:47,740 --> 01:36:52,259
Speaker 2: it is clear that heterosexuals under certain circumstances do engage

1593
01:36:52,260 --> 01:36:56,979
Speaker 2: in homosexual sex like prisons, on ships, etc. That there

1594
01:36:57,019 --> 01:37:01,820
Speaker 2: are Greek men with boys. Obviously, unless one holds that

1595
01:37:01,900 --> 01:37:05,460
Speaker 2: all Greek men who could do so were in fact homosexual,

1596
01:37:06,099 --> 01:37:11,220
Speaker 2: which would distort the percentage of homosexuals in that society. Clearly, behavior,

1597
01:37:11,300 --> 01:37:16,740
Speaker 2: if not orientation, can be changed. My heart believes that true.

1598
01:37:16,820 --> 01:37:21,380
Speaker 2: A person who truly cannot be attracted to the opposite sex.

1599
01:37:21,900 --> 01:37:24,380
Speaker 2: I don't know what can be done. On the other hand,

1600
01:37:24,420 --> 01:37:27,139
Speaker 2: when people come out in various groups and say they

1601
01:37:27,220 --> 01:37:32,059
Speaker 2: have they have. I had. When I was director of

1602
01:37:32,140 --> 01:37:35,580
Speaker 2: a Jewish institute, a young man of twenty came over

1603
01:37:35,660 --> 01:37:38,660
Speaker 2: to me and told me that, and he was terribly torn.

1604
01:37:38,700 --> 01:37:43,060
Speaker 2: He was my heart broke. He wanted to be homosexual,

1605
01:37:43,380 --> 01:37:47,419
Speaker 2: like like like I want to be I don't know, Catholic,

1606
01:37:53,180 --> 01:37:58,179
Speaker 2: not true. I rather be Catholic. Actually, rather be Catholic

1607
01:37:58,260 --> 01:38:01,939
Speaker 2: than gay. Isn't that that? Because that is funny? That

1608
01:38:02,099 --> 01:38:05,059
Speaker 2: is funny. Right. Oh, that's a good one, right, Catholic priest.

1609
01:38:05,260 --> 01:38:09,740
Speaker 2: That's a separative guy. He's right, that's right, spoken like

1610
01:38:09,780 --> 01:38:15,900
Speaker 2: a good heterosexual Jew. Okay, the uh so, I said

1611
01:38:15,939 --> 01:38:18,939
Speaker 2: to him, And this will sound to Gaze who might

1612
01:38:19,019 --> 01:38:21,900
Speaker 2: be here, and to the to the pastor as so

1613
01:38:22,140 --> 01:38:25,019
Speaker 2: absurd that it's amazing. I would admit to it. But

1614
01:38:25,140 --> 01:38:27,780
Speaker 2: I want to admit to it because I know my

1615
01:38:27,900 --> 01:38:29,620
Speaker 2: heart was in a good place. I said to you,

1616
01:38:30,340 --> 01:38:33,780
Speaker 2: he really appreciated me like you say you do, and

1617
01:38:33,860 --> 01:38:36,700
Speaker 2: it means the world to me. And he said, Dennis,

1618
01:38:36,740 --> 01:38:39,139
Speaker 2: I want to be a faithful Jew and I've listened

1619
01:38:39,180 --> 01:38:40,700
Speaker 2: to you all summer, and what do you want me

1620
01:38:40,740 --> 01:38:43,419
Speaker 2: to What should I do? I said, are you are certain,

1621
01:38:43,580 --> 01:38:46,660
Speaker 2: absolutely certain that you can't be attracted to women? Is

1622
01:38:46,740 --> 01:38:51,260
Speaker 2: Aaron here, by the way, he is, okay, So i'll

1623
01:38:51,580 --> 01:38:56,979
Speaker 2: euphemistically speak he's playing game Boy's a non issue. That's true.

1624
01:38:57,580 --> 01:38:59,580
Speaker 2: If you have an eleven year old playing game Boy,

1625
01:38:59,820 --> 01:39:02,220
Speaker 2: it does not matter what we talk about. That is

1626
01:39:02,300 --> 01:39:09,340
Speaker 2: absolutely correct. Anyway, I said to him, why don't you

1627
01:39:09,420 --> 01:39:12,180
Speaker 2: look at some pictures from various magazines and you know,

1628
01:39:12,620 --> 01:39:14,660
Speaker 2: you'll know what I'm referring to, and just you know,

1629
01:39:15,140 --> 01:39:17,219
Speaker 2: and try to be aroused in that way and see

1630
01:39:17,260 --> 01:39:19,059
Speaker 2: what you can do. And he stayed in touch with

1631
01:39:19,140 --> 01:39:21,939
Speaker 2: me for about a year and he tried all the

1632
01:39:22,140 --> 01:39:26,460
Speaker 2: things that I recommended, and anyway, nothing worked. Then he just,

1633
01:39:26,780 --> 01:39:29,660
Speaker 2: you know, but my methods are are primitive, I assume

1634
01:39:29,740 --> 01:39:32,580
Speaker 2: compared to No. No, I'm sure they are, but at

1635
01:39:32,660 --> 01:39:35,139
Speaker 2: least it was. It was new to me to work

1636
01:39:35,220 --> 01:39:37,460
Speaker 2: with somebody like this, and I wanted to learn too,

1637
01:39:37,500 --> 01:39:40,820
Speaker 2: as well as try to help him. I don't know.

1638
01:39:40,979 --> 01:39:43,300
Speaker 2: I can't answer the fixed issue. I can't answer it.

1639
01:39:43,380 --> 01:39:46,099
Speaker 2: You have to talk to Christians who deal with that.

1640
01:39:46,700 --> 01:39:47,620
Speaker 4: I do have an answer for.

1641
01:39:47,660 --> 01:39:50,099
Speaker 2: Okay, please, you asked me earlier.

1642
01:39:50,540 --> 01:39:54,139
Speaker 3: If I believe that homosexuals were born, I think, and

1643
01:39:54,260 --> 01:39:56,380
Speaker 3: I can't prove it. This is just my thing that

1644
01:39:56,580 --> 01:39:59,460
Speaker 3: this situation here is why you have the incredible rise

1645
01:39:59,500 --> 01:40:03,219
Speaker 3: of homosexuality our nation. We have concluded, our society has

1646
01:40:03,340 --> 01:40:06,099
Speaker 3: concluded if I have a sexual thought about a man,

1647
01:40:06,260 --> 01:40:09,460
Speaker 3: I must therefore be a homosexual, and I must therefore

1648
01:40:09,500 --> 01:40:09,660
Speaker 3: then go.

1649
01:40:09,740 --> 01:40:12,299
Speaker 2: The problem was that that's not what he said. He said,

1650
01:40:12,740 --> 01:40:17,260
Speaker 2: this is more affirmative. He said, my child is not

1651
01:40:17,420 --> 01:40:18,660
Speaker 2: intracted to girls.

1652
01:40:18,740 --> 01:40:19,900
Speaker 4: But why is that a problem.

1653
01:40:20,700 --> 01:40:20,860
Speaker 2: Say?

1654
01:40:21,260 --> 01:40:24,540
Speaker 3: If I'm not attracted to girls, I must therefore be

1655
01:40:24,620 --> 01:40:29,620
Speaker 3: a homosexual, and I deny that. In First Printians, chapter seven,

1656
01:40:30,059 --> 01:40:32,780
Speaker 3: Paul talks about the gift of singleness and he uses

1657
01:40:32,860 --> 01:40:34,580
Speaker 3: Paul as an illustration. He said, you know, if I

1658
01:40:34,740 --> 01:40:36,740
Speaker 3: was married, I would have to take care of my wife,

1659
01:40:36,939 --> 01:40:39,700
Speaker 3: and I would have to take care of my children

1660
01:40:39,939 --> 01:40:41,939
Speaker 3: and all those other things. But you know what, God

1661
01:40:41,979 --> 01:40:44,340
Speaker 3: has given me the gift of singleness. Therefore I can

1662
01:40:44,420 --> 01:40:47,300
Speaker 3: serve God with all of my heart. Now I disagree

1663
01:40:47,380 --> 01:40:50,260
Speaker 3: with the Catholic position on celibacy, but that's where this

1664
01:40:50,420 --> 01:40:50,900
Speaker 3: comes from.

1665
01:40:51,460 --> 01:40:53,059
Speaker 2: That we believe that we should be.

1666
01:40:53,059 --> 01:40:56,460
Speaker 3: Set aside from sexual activity so we can serve God

1667
01:40:56,860 --> 01:41:00,700
Speaker 3: with a whole heart. I would challenge your son to say,

1668
01:41:00,780 --> 01:41:02,860
Speaker 3: you know what, you may not be attracted to women

1669
01:41:03,059 --> 01:41:06,099
Speaker 3: because maybe God wants you to think totally about him

1670
01:41:07,300 --> 01:41:11,259
Speaker 3: and say, you know what, don't think about sex. Now,

1671
01:41:11,500 --> 01:41:13,620
Speaker 3: how many men think about sex? I heard one time

1672
01:41:13,660 --> 01:41:14,939
Speaker 3: it's every six seconds.

1673
01:41:15,700 --> 01:41:19,139
Speaker 2: You know that's the asexual men.

1674
01:41:19,340 --> 01:41:26,299
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, you're sixteen, the movies, the TV, high school,

1675
01:41:26,660 --> 01:41:27,459
Speaker 3: halt or tops.

1676
01:41:27,820 --> 01:41:29,939
Speaker 4: You're going to think about sex. You're in gym class.

1677
01:41:30,140 --> 01:41:32,860
Speaker 4: I mean, you're going to think about sex every minute.

1678
01:41:32,620 --> 01:41:33,059
Speaker 10: Of the day.

1679
01:41:33,300 --> 01:41:37,380
Speaker 3: But just because you're not consumed with thoughts about sexuality

1680
01:41:37,460 --> 01:41:41,099
Speaker 3: for women doesn't mean anything other than you're not consumed

1681
01:41:41,140 --> 01:41:44,059
Speaker 3: with sexual thoughts about women. And maybe it's God saying,

1682
01:41:44,300 --> 01:41:45,979
Speaker 3: I don't know what your son's name is. Maybe God

1683
01:41:46,059 --> 01:41:47,219
Speaker 3: wants you to be consumed with him.

1684
01:41:47,500 --> 01:41:49,979
Speaker 12: Okay, let's just assume though, that he does do that,

1685
01:41:50,140 --> 01:41:53,660
Speaker 12: that he chooses to be consumed with God. And you know,

1686
01:41:53,740 --> 01:41:56,260
Speaker 12: he's sixteen years old, and I'm telling him, don't be

1687
01:41:56,340 --> 01:41:58,460
Speaker 12: so caught up in what your sexual orientation is. Be

1688
01:41:58,500 --> 01:42:00,500
Speaker 12: caught up in things that are important as sixteen year old.

1689
01:42:00,540 --> 01:42:03,939
Speaker 12: Be moral, be true, be faithful, be loyal to your friends,

1690
01:42:03,939 --> 01:42:05,139
Speaker 12: and those things, and we'll see what happens.

1691
01:42:05,540 --> 01:42:08,179
Speaker 2: But let's say that he does that. In five six

1692
01:42:08,300 --> 01:42:10,500
Speaker 2: years from now, he's just.

1693
01:42:10,820 --> 01:42:12,939
Speaker 4: Determined that he is to be gay.

1694
01:42:13,220 --> 01:42:15,740
Speaker 12: Would you tell me that I need to tell him

1695
01:42:16,260 --> 01:42:18,700
Speaker 12: that he either needs to so he needs to be

1696
01:42:18,860 --> 01:42:22,339
Speaker 12: alone and be dedicated to God God, and deny himself

1697
01:42:23,580 --> 01:42:27,380
Speaker 12: the life of companionship with another human being because he's

1698
01:42:27,460 --> 01:42:29,019
Speaker 12: chosen that he can't be with a woman.

1699
01:42:30,300 --> 01:42:36,979
Speaker 3: In one Corinthians six, Paul gives a list of several sins,

1700
01:42:37,099 --> 01:42:41,420
Speaker 3: one of which is homosexuality, and he says, none of

1701
01:42:41,540 --> 01:42:44,259
Speaker 3: the two things. He says, none of these will see

1702
01:42:44,260 --> 01:42:45,059
Speaker 3: the kingdom of God.

1703
01:42:45,740 --> 01:42:49,220
Speaker 4: Two he says, and such were some of you.

1704
01:42:50,580 --> 01:42:54,660
Speaker 3: Now I understand that by saying I believe that homosexuals.

1705
01:42:54,780 --> 01:42:57,860
Speaker 3: Those who are consumed with homosexuality will not go to heaven.

1706
01:42:57,939 --> 01:43:03,139
Speaker 3: That raises incredible emotion. Let me just say this, Heaven

1707
01:43:03,260 --> 01:43:07,219
Speaker 3: is not my home. When people knock on my door,

1708
01:43:07,380 --> 01:43:09,380
Speaker 3: I get to say you can come in or you

1709
01:43:09,460 --> 01:43:12,460
Speaker 3: can't come in. If I'm at somebody else's house, I

1710
01:43:12,580 --> 01:43:14,740
Speaker 3: can't say that Heaven is God's home.

1711
01:43:15,540 --> 01:43:18,340
Speaker 4: And I believe that whether I say this is right

1712
01:43:18,460 --> 01:43:19,219
Speaker 4: or this is wrong.

1713
01:43:19,260 --> 01:43:23,380
Speaker 3: God is established the criteria upon which people will come in,

1714
01:43:23,660 --> 01:43:25,700
Speaker 3: and whether I agree with that or not, it doesn't

1715
01:43:25,780 --> 01:43:29,900
Speaker 3: change the criteria. So I think you need to sit

1716
01:43:30,019 --> 01:43:34,820
Speaker 3: down with your son and say, here is what God says, and.

1717
01:43:36,460 --> 01:43:37,540
Speaker 4: And and he is the one.

1718
01:43:37,700 --> 01:43:37,820
Speaker 1: You know.

1719
01:43:38,580 --> 01:43:40,540
Speaker 4: I'm not going to be in heavens at the gate

1720
01:43:40,620 --> 01:43:42,340
Speaker 4: saying you can come in, and you can you can't

1721
01:43:42,380 --> 01:43:44,219
Speaker 4: come in. I'm gonna be flat on my face praising

1722
01:43:44,260 --> 01:43:49,220
Speaker 4: God I got there or unworthy am I? But I

1723
01:43:49,300 --> 01:43:50,939
Speaker 4: think you do need to do two things.

1724
01:43:51,420 --> 01:43:53,340
Speaker 3: I think you need to sit down with him and

1725
01:43:53,500 --> 01:43:59,700
Speaker 3: go through every medical thing you can on the homosexual lifestyle.

1726
01:44:00,019 --> 01:44:02,139
Speaker 4: This is what you are getting into. I mean, it's

1727
01:44:02,220 --> 01:44:02,900
Speaker 4: nice to say.

1728
01:44:03,220 --> 01:44:04,820
Speaker 3: You know, we love each other and all that kind

1729
01:44:04,820 --> 01:44:10,740
Speaker 3: of stuff, but there are incredible physical medical consequences from

1730
01:44:10,820 --> 01:44:15,939
Speaker 3: that lifestyle, and there's incredible and I think you can

1731
01:44:16,260 --> 01:44:18,620
Speaker 3: just challenge him and say, you know what, this may

1732
01:44:18,700 --> 01:44:20,620
Speaker 3: be an area. I mean, how many men want to

1733
01:44:20,740 --> 01:44:24,700
Speaker 3: be married to Catherine Zetta Jones? You know they can't,

1734
01:44:25,780 --> 01:44:28,900
Speaker 3: you know, So to say I want this doesn't necessarily

1735
01:44:28,979 --> 01:44:31,820
Speaker 3: mean I have to follow through on it. And I

1736
01:44:31,900 --> 01:44:35,740
Speaker 3: think that's that's where our especially our teenagers are today.

1737
01:44:35,939 --> 01:44:38,660
Speaker 3: Because I have this idea in my mind, I am

1738
01:44:38,860 --> 01:44:41,860
Speaker 3: forced to follow through on it. And I think that's

1739
01:44:41,900 --> 01:44:44,059
Speaker 3: when it becomes you know, it's like an alcoholic. You

1740
01:44:44,140 --> 01:44:47,459
Speaker 3: had a drink when you're sixteen, I must be an alcoholic. Therefore,

1741
01:44:47,540 --> 01:44:48,460
Speaker 3: what's my lifestyle?

1742
01:44:49,140 --> 01:44:51,380
Speaker 4: You start hanging out at the bars, you start going

1743
01:44:51,420 --> 01:44:54,180
Speaker 4: out with the guys, you start drinking, and what do

1744
01:44:54,260 --> 01:44:57,180
Speaker 4: you become? You know, and it becomes, in essence, a

1745
01:44:57,300 --> 01:44:58,220
Speaker 4: self fulfilling.

1746
01:44:57,900 --> 01:45:00,380
Speaker 2: Prophecy because it's your child and there's so much on

1747
01:45:00,500 --> 01:45:03,380
Speaker 2: the line here. I want to get a variety of

1748
01:45:03,460 --> 01:45:06,180
Speaker 2: responses and thank you, Pastor Jackson.

1749
01:45:05,979 --> 01:45:07,500
Speaker 4: And I do think you need to love your son.

1750
01:45:08,340 --> 01:45:10,420
Speaker 9: If I can just add one thing I teach in

1751
01:45:10,460 --> 01:45:12,740
Speaker 9: the high school, I've had young men come to me

1752
01:45:13,380 --> 01:45:15,780
Speaker 9: and say, father, I think I'm gig, whether it be

1753
01:45:15,860 --> 01:45:19,979
Speaker 9: within confession or just in counseling sessions. And when a

1754
01:45:20,059 --> 01:45:22,460
Speaker 9: young man is he's fifteen or sixteen years old, the

1755
01:45:22,500 --> 01:45:24,420
Speaker 9: best advice I can give him is, you know what,

1756
01:45:24,979 --> 01:45:28,939
Speaker 9: human sexuality at your age is very, very fluid, And

1757
01:45:29,500 --> 01:45:33,340
Speaker 9: I would not, if I were you, identify myself as

1758
01:45:33,460 --> 01:45:37,099
Speaker 9: being gay or stray or by until you get to

1759
01:45:37,180 --> 01:45:39,660
Speaker 9: maybe twenty twenty one years old, when things are a

1760
01:45:39,700 --> 01:45:43,700
Speaker 9: little bit more fixed. I think if we allow a

1761
01:45:43,780 --> 01:45:47,019
Speaker 9: young man to say I'm gay at fifteen, then we

1762
01:45:47,140 --> 01:45:49,019
Speaker 9: may be cutting off the possibility that it's a phase

1763
01:45:49,059 --> 01:45:51,259
Speaker 9: that he's going through and that he's on his way

1764
01:45:51,260 --> 01:45:53,939
Speaker 9: to head of sexuality. But at this particular point in

1765
01:45:54,019 --> 01:45:57,700
Speaker 9: his life, he's being attracted towards other men, coaches, teachers

1766
01:45:57,740 --> 01:46:00,259
Speaker 9: that he admires, and so forth. So I would recommend

1767
01:46:00,300 --> 01:46:02,700
Speaker 9: that you have your son remain open to the idea

1768
01:46:02,740 --> 01:46:04,740
Speaker 9: that the day will come that he will be attracted

1769
01:46:04,780 --> 01:46:06,139
Speaker 9: to women, and that the day will come there he

1770
01:46:06,180 --> 01:46:08,380
Speaker 9: will want to get married and have children and so forth.

1771
01:46:08,820 --> 01:46:10,700
Speaker 9: If it turns out when he's twenty one twenty two

1772
01:46:10,780 --> 01:46:12,660
Speaker 9: years old, you know what, I'm only attracted to men.

1773
01:46:13,059 --> 01:46:14,979
Speaker 9: As Dennis said, love him as you'll have all your

1774
01:46:15,019 --> 01:46:17,939
Speaker 9: other children, because he's still your son and he's still

1775
01:46:17,979 --> 01:46:18,620
Speaker 9: God's child.

1776
01:46:20,180 --> 01:46:22,099
Speaker 2: Thank you the Rabbi, what would you advise?

1777
01:46:23,220 --> 01:46:27,259
Speaker 5: I can't think of anything substantially different. Again, I would

1778
01:46:27,380 --> 01:46:32,780
Speaker 5: like to promote as much possibility through psychiatric, psychological other

1779
01:46:32,900 --> 01:46:39,099
Speaker 5: kinds of treatment, including patience, forbearance, celibacy, until he were sure,

1780
01:46:39,140 --> 01:46:41,180
Speaker 5: and if he were sure, and that's the kind of

1781
01:46:41,260 --> 01:46:43,420
Speaker 5: lifestyle that he were to choose, I would try to

1782
01:46:43,660 --> 01:46:47,260
Speaker 5: guide him to the most careful and holy way to

1783
01:46:47,340 --> 01:46:47,780
Speaker 5: express it.

1784
01:46:48,099 --> 01:46:50,740
Speaker 2: Pastor Well, Pastor Hanson, what would you say.

1785
01:46:51,380 --> 01:46:55,460
Speaker 7: Well, clearly, it's a painful thing to experience when you

1786
01:46:55,979 --> 01:46:59,900
Speaker 7: love someone and they're coming to you with this deep,

1787
01:46:59,979 --> 01:47:04,500
Speaker 7: these deep feelings, and there's no question that it calls

1788
01:47:04,580 --> 01:47:09,340
Speaker 7: for a loving response. And as you would anticipate, I

1789
01:47:09,420 --> 01:47:12,460
Speaker 7: don't believe that a loving God would exclude your son

1790
01:47:12,740 --> 01:47:15,339
Speaker 7: or any other gay or lesbian person who is seeking

1791
01:47:15,420 --> 01:47:17,820
Speaker 7: to live as a loving human being in this world,

1792
01:47:17,939 --> 01:47:21,939
Speaker 7: seeking to honor and respect others themselves, and seeking to

1793
01:47:21,979 --> 01:47:26,620
Speaker 7: be responsible with their lives. You know, the question about

1794
01:47:26,660 --> 01:47:29,740
Speaker 7: what Paul wrote in First Corinthians, or what's in on

1795
01:47:29,939 --> 01:47:34,219
Speaker 7: Timothy or what's in Romans. There's questions among the biblical

1796
01:47:34,260 --> 01:47:37,860
Speaker 7: scholars about what the original Greek really referred to and

1797
01:47:37,939 --> 01:47:41,179
Speaker 7: what Paul is really referring to. I think the rest

1798
01:47:41,220 --> 01:47:43,180
Speaker 7: of the message of the New Testament, and certainly what

1799
01:47:43,340 --> 01:47:47,780
Speaker 7: Jesus teaches, is that we are called to love one another.

1800
01:47:47,900 --> 01:47:49,700
Speaker 7: Jesus said, we're going to be judged on did you

1801
01:47:50,140 --> 01:47:52,380
Speaker 7: welcome the stranger, did you feed the hungry, did you

1802
01:47:52,460 --> 01:47:55,860
Speaker 7: clothe the naked? Did you visit those who are sick

1803
01:47:55,900 --> 01:47:59,979
Speaker 7: and in prison? That's the criteria for the great judgment. Well,

1804
01:48:00,660 --> 01:48:02,339
Speaker 7: it's not whether you're gay or straight.

1805
01:48:02,660 --> 01:48:03,220
Speaker 2: That's not it.

1806
01:48:03,540 --> 01:48:06,900
Speaker 7: And you know, and I guess I would own, as

1807
01:48:06,979 --> 01:48:10,460
Speaker 7: Dennis suggested a moment ago, that if that's what Paul

1808
01:48:10,700 --> 01:48:14,900
Speaker 7: really meant to say, that God excludes people that are homosexual,

1809
01:48:15,420 --> 01:48:17,979
Speaker 7: no matter how wonderful of human beings they are, then

1810
01:48:18,300 --> 01:48:19,660
Speaker 7: I just disagree with Paul.

1811
01:48:21,780 --> 01:48:24,219
Speaker 2: Well, it's easier for me to disagree with Paul. I mean,

1812
01:48:24,820 --> 01:48:28,500
Speaker 2: I have to say, because you're a Christian pastor and

1813
01:48:28,580 --> 01:48:31,179
Speaker 2: I'm not, so you know, it comes with a much

1814
01:48:31,220 --> 01:48:35,019
Speaker 2: heavier price to you. All right, Yes, please, I'd.

1815
01:48:34,860 --> 01:48:37,220
Speaker 8: Like to know if each of the representatives feel that

1816
01:48:37,540 --> 01:48:39,860
Speaker 8: adoption is adoption considered pro.

1817
01:48:39,900 --> 01:48:44,740
Speaker 4: Creative, I would say no.

1818
01:48:46,220 --> 01:48:49,300
Speaker 3: I think pro creation has to start with the biology

1819
01:48:49,380 --> 01:48:52,180
Speaker 3: of it. I think adoption is a wonderful thing. And

1820
01:48:52,340 --> 01:48:54,380
Speaker 3: as you go through scripture, you know there were some

1821
01:48:54,460 --> 01:48:57,100
Speaker 3: great adoption stories, Moses being the chief.

1822
01:48:57,460 --> 01:49:00,860
Speaker 4: And I worked for a fella when I was in college.

1823
01:49:00,900 --> 01:49:04,660
Speaker 3: You had adopted twenty one children, and he was a

1824
01:49:04,700 --> 01:49:06,379
Speaker 3: wonderful a wonderful example.

1825
01:49:08,019 --> 01:49:08,580
Speaker 2: Twenty one.

1826
01:49:08,939 --> 01:49:10,780
Speaker 4: Yeah, he had the United Nations.

1827
01:49:10,820 --> 01:49:14,300
Speaker 2: And when his family went to a restaurant, did they

1828
01:49:14,420 --> 01:49:17,900
Speaker 2: like they took the bus, they booked the restaurant. Yeah, well,

1829
01:49:17,979 --> 01:49:20,139
Speaker 2: we'll reserve it for the family, eight tables please.

1830
01:49:21,019 --> 01:49:23,860
Speaker 9: I know a similar situation where this Irish American family

1831
01:49:23,939 --> 01:49:27,419
Speaker 9: adopted all these multiracial children. And so you have somebody

1832
01:49:27,460 --> 01:49:29,900
Speaker 9: who looks like he just came from Nigeria and his

1833
01:49:30,059 --> 01:49:33,700
Speaker 9: name is Declan. He gave them all Irish names. And

1834
01:49:33,820 --> 01:49:35,219
Speaker 9: you know someone from.

1835
01:49:35,180 --> 01:49:37,660
Speaker 6: Korea and and and her name is Vonn.

1836
01:49:39,059 --> 01:49:39,580
Speaker 2: That's great.

1837
01:49:39,660 --> 01:49:41,059
Speaker 9: It's a very interesting situation.

1838
01:49:41,220 --> 01:49:44,660
Speaker 2: Well, pro creative literally means to create a new person,

1839
01:49:45,059 --> 01:49:50,900
Speaker 2: but it's in the scripture being in lieu of adoption,

1840
01:49:51,059 --> 01:49:52,379
Speaker 2: in lieu of pro creation.

1841
01:49:53,740 --> 01:49:57,459
Speaker 8: If you talk about the value or the value of marriage.

1842
01:49:57,580 --> 01:50:00,700
Speaker 8: Value of the sexual act in marriage is to pro create.

1843
01:50:00,860 --> 01:50:04,900
Speaker 8: And if one chooses to add to bring you life

1844
01:50:04,979 --> 01:50:09,620
Speaker 8: through adoption as opposed to the sexual act, then that

1845
01:50:11,140 --> 01:50:13,939
Speaker 8: by the by the people who say that that sexual

1846
01:50:14,460 --> 01:50:17,979
Speaker 8: sexual act in marriage is for procreation, with that satisfy it.

1847
01:50:18,059 --> 01:50:22,500
Speaker 5: With adoption satisfy it if one could not procreate. I mean,

1848
01:50:22,979 --> 01:50:26,300
Speaker 5: let's think of an example where couple say, we think

1849
01:50:26,380 --> 01:50:29,099
Speaker 5: the human condition is so despicable and so despairing we

1850
01:50:29,180 --> 01:50:31,500
Speaker 5: refuse to bring children into the world. They're utterly nihilistic.

1851
01:50:31,540 --> 01:50:33,580
Speaker 5: They don't believe in God, don't trust God, so they

1852
01:50:33,660 --> 01:50:35,979
Speaker 5: are choosing not to have children. But they feel sorry

1853
01:50:36,019 --> 01:50:40,059
Speaker 5: for kids that don't have parents, so they adopt. So

1854
01:50:40,140 --> 01:50:42,420
Speaker 5: in my opinion, I would say to them, well, don't

1855
01:50:42,420 --> 01:50:44,900
Speaker 5: be so nihilistic, don't be so despairing, have your own

1856
01:50:44,939 --> 01:50:48,099
Speaker 5: children and adopt, or if you can have children, adopt.

1857
01:50:48,740 --> 01:50:52,820
Speaker 5: So I again, I go back to my ideal that

1858
01:50:53,059 --> 01:50:55,900
Speaker 5: ideally marriage ought to be the things that I enumerated before.

1859
01:50:56,340 --> 01:50:58,620
Speaker 5: I certainly I think adoption is a wonderful thing, both

1860
01:50:58,620 --> 01:51:00,339
Speaker 5: for a couple to adopt and both for the childhood

1861
01:51:00,340 --> 01:51:02,979
Speaker 5: gets adopted. But it doesn't take the place of procreation

1862
01:51:03,099 --> 01:51:04,299
Speaker 5: for a couple that can procreate.

1863
01:51:04,740 --> 01:51:09,380
Speaker 3: Let me also add in the New Testament, there is

1864
01:51:09,500 --> 01:51:12,939
Speaker 3: no one who is born a Christian. We are all

1865
01:51:13,059 --> 01:51:15,380
Speaker 3: adopted into the family of God, and that gives you

1866
01:51:15,460 --> 01:51:16,820
Speaker 3: God's view of adoption.

1867
01:51:18,099 --> 01:51:20,180
Speaker 2: That's a good one. We're all adopted. I agree with that.

1868
01:51:20,300 --> 01:51:24,340
Speaker 13: Okay, yes, please, Well this is for Reverend Jackson. I

1869
01:51:24,460 --> 01:51:29,059
Speaker 13: want to know, do you actually think that gay men

1870
01:51:29,380 --> 01:51:33,019
Speaker 13: are more promiscuous and have greater medical risk to the

1871
01:51:33,140 --> 01:51:37,540
Speaker 13: world than straight men, Because you know, I've been in

1872
01:51:37,660 --> 01:51:40,139
Speaker 13: locker rooms where all the guys talk about is how

1873
01:51:40,220 --> 01:51:42,900
Speaker 13: many women they have had in their life. And we

1874
01:51:43,019 --> 01:51:46,460
Speaker 13: look at Magic Johnson, who you know, said that he

1875
01:51:46,620 --> 01:51:50,099
Speaker 13: had several sexual relationships while he was married and before

1876
01:51:50,140 --> 01:51:53,900
Speaker 13: he was married, and then you you, you know, you

1877
01:51:54,059 --> 01:51:56,540
Speaker 13: talk about being king of the jungle and how how

1878
01:51:56,580 --> 01:51:58,780
Speaker 13: the lion goes out and gets all the lionesses and

1879
01:51:59,220 --> 01:52:02,700
Speaker 13: how this this just doesn't seem to me to be

1880
01:52:02,900 --> 01:52:06,740
Speaker 13: a homosexual drive that men have. It seems to be

1881
01:52:07,220 --> 01:52:10,300
Speaker 13: a male drive that men have that they need to

1882
01:52:10,420 --> 01:52:14,220
Speaker 13: have many sexual relationships. And I don't see how you

1883
01:52:14,340 --> 01:52:19,460
Speaker 13: can equate homosexuality with being more fumiscuous than heterosexual.

1884
01:52:20,860 --> 01:52:23,700
Speaker 4: Well, I don't have all the statistics.

1885
01:52:23,780 --> 01:52:26,460
Speaker 3: Let me just give you an article out of The

1886
01:52:26,580 --> 01:52:29,740
Speaker 3: Advocate August twenty third, nineteen ninety.

1887
01:52:29,540 --> 01:52:32,460
Speaker 2: Four, the number of national gay newspaper.

1888
01:52:32,420 --> 01:52:34,860
Speaker 3: Number of partners in the previous year. Twenty four percent

1889
01:52:35,019 --> 01:52:38,219
Speaker 3: had two to four partners, eighteen percent had five to ten,

1890
01:52:38,340 --> 01:52:41,460
Speaker 3: fifty seven percent exceeded thirty thirty five percent had one

1891
01:52:41,500 --> 01:52:45,939
Speaker 3: hundred or more partners. Now, I don't think per se

1892
01:52:46,099 --> 01:52:51,099
Speaker 3: because obviously there are homosexual couples who are never go

1893
01:52:51,220 --> 01:52:55,820
Speaker 3: outside of that bond. There seems that there seems to

1894
01:52:55,900 --> 01:53:00,299
Speaker 3: be something and Dennis has mentioned this in several cases.

1895
01:53:01,260 --> 01:53:04,019
Speaker 3: There is something about women that tame men.

1896
01:53:05,660 --> 01:53:10,820
Speaker 2: If we like not, I'll kill you. Yeah, that's pretty

1897
01:53:10,900 --> 01:53:13,580
Speaker 2: much it. It's very effective.

1898
01:53:14,900 --> 01:53:18,139
Speaker 3: Now, there is no law that says homosexuals have to

1899
01:53:18,220 --> 01:53:21,979
Speaker 3: be promiscuous, but it seems, at least based on what

1900
01:53:22,099 --> 01:53:24,500
Speaker 3: the Advocate discovered, and I think if you went up

1901
01:53:24,540 --> 01:53:28,780
Speaker 3: to San Francisco and just surveyed people, there is within

1902
01:53:29,019 --> 01:53:34,339
Speaker 3: the lifestyle of today's homosexual an incredible promiscuity that says

1903
01:53:34,860 --> 01:53:40,139
Speaker 3: we will not control ourselves. We will I never been

1904
01:53:40,180 --> 01:53:41,860
Speaker 3: to a you know, gay bar, I've never been to

1905
01:53:41,900 --> 01:53:44,259
Speaker 3: a bath house, but there seems to be an incredible

1906
01:53:44,260 --> 01:53:46,900
Speaker 3: amount of promiscuity within the gay community today.

1907
01:53:47,220 --> 01:53:48,299
Speaker 2: Can I just yeah, please?

1908
01:53:48,660 --> 01:53:51,820
Speaker 13: If if that's true, then why would you reject gay

1909
01:53:51,939 --> 01:53:54,700
Speaker 13: people to be in your church to give them that

1910
01:53:54,900 --> 01:53:59,019
Speaker 13: council that they need to stop the promiscuous lifestyle. In

1911
01:53:59,140 --> 01:54:01,620
Speaker 13: other words, it seems to me like you feel reject

1912
01:54:01,660 --> 01:54:04,139
Speaker 13: people by just the very nature of the fact that

1913
01:54:04,260 --> 01:54:08,260
Speaker 13: you you don't don't want gay and lesbian people to

1914
01:54:08,500 --> 01:54:09,379
Speaker 13: marry each other.

1915
01:54:09,740 --> 01:54:12,179
Speaker 4: That marriage is different than sexual activity.

1916
01:54:12,260 --> 01:54:15,620
Speaker 13: Yeah, but but we also know that, you know, if

1917
01:54:15,660 --> 01:54:17,700
Speaker 13: you're a gay governor, or if you're a magic Johnson,

1918
01:54:17,740 --> 01:54:20,860
Speaker 13: you still may be in an adulterous affair because because

1919
01:54:21,059 --> 01:54:23,540
Speaker 13: these feelings of you know, being the king of the

1920
01:54:23,620 --> 01:54:26,099
Speaker 13: jungle still keep going on no matter if you're gay

1921
01:54:26,180 --> 01:54:26,700
Speaker 13: or you're straight.

1922
01:54:27,260 --> 01:54:29,179
Speaker 2: And and it just seems to me is that if

1923
01:54:29,260 --> 01:54:30,300
Speaker 2: we if we.

1924
01:54:30,340 --> 01:54:33,380
Speaker 13: Are in a in this kind of a mood or

1925
01:54:33,540 --> 01:54:36,900
Speaker 13: in the church, that that we are tolerating gay people

1926
01:54:37,220 --> 01:54:39,700
Speaker 13: as long as they don't make any any noise and

1927
01:54:39,820 --> 01:54:41,780
Speaker 13: as long as they don't want all of the same

1928
01:54:41,940 --> 01:54:44,580
Speaker 13: rights and conditions and God's love, it that the that

1929
01:54:44,660 --> 01:54:48,140
Speaker 13: the straight community has it's fine. In other words, I

1930
01:54:48,180 --> 01:54:53,620
Speaker 13: don't think you would be counseling a heterosexual male that's

1931
01:54:53,620 --> 01:54:56,820
Speaker 13: getting ready to marry a woman that that that might

1932
01:54:56,860 --> 01:54:58,700
Speaker 13: have had. You know a lot of women in his

1933
01:54:58,860 --> 01:55:02,340
Speaker 13: life that you were promiscuous in the past, and you

1934
01:55:02,740 --> 01:55:04,500
Speaker 13: need not to worry about because you're saying that women

1935
01:55:04,860 --> 01:55:06,980
Speaker 13: have a tency to tame. But you know, I know

1936
01:55:07,060 --> 01:55:09,220
Speaker 13: a lot of women that are have been hurt and

1937
01:55:09,540 --> 01:55:13,379
Speaker 13: destroyed by men that just go on and do whatever

1938
01:55:13,420 --> 01:55:14,780
Speaker 13: they want to do, and so do you.

1939
01:55:15,420 --> 01:55:16,580
Speaker 2: So I don't know.

1940
01:55:16,660 --> 01:55:19,820
Speaker 13: It just seems that that I do believe that the church,

1941
01:55:20,380 --> 01:55:22,460
Speaker 13: all of you in the faith community, with the exception

1942
01:55:22,580 --> 01:55:26,260
Speaker 13: of our church which I'm a member of, with Reverd Hanson,

1943
01:55:26,620 --> 01:55:29,940
Speaker 13: I do believe that you are pushing the gay community

1944
01:55:29,980 --> 01:55:34,300
Speaker 13: away by saying that they can't be full loving members

1945
01:55:34,340 --> 01:55:36,820
Speaker 13: of the Body of Christ because they're gay.

1946
01:55:38,900 --> 01:55:41,140
Speaker 9: I have to disagree with you, sir, because I think

1947
01:55:41,220 --> 01:55:44,300
Speaker 9: part of it is that we put up, save for example,

1948
01:55:44,300 --> 01:55:46,900
Speaker 9: on the Catholic Church, we put up a certain teaching

1949
01:55:47,580 --> 01:55:52,500
Speaker 9: for people who are intent upon living a homosexual relationship,

1950
01:55:53,580 --> 01:55:56,380
Speaker 9: realizing that that's outside the realm of the teaching of

1951
01:55:56,420 --> 01:55:59,140
Speaker 9: the Catholic Church. They're going to make the choice not

1952
01:55:59,300 --> 01:56:01,460
Speaker 9: to be participants in the life of the Catholic Church.

1953
01:56:01,700 --> 01:56:04,380
Speaker 9: But I can tell you that we have thousands upon

1954
01:56:04,460 --> 01:56:08,100
Speaker 9: thousands of gay Catholics who are on one hand struggling

1955
01:56:08,700 --> 01:56:11,740
Speaker 9: with reconciling their personal life and the teaching of the church.

1956
01:56:12,220 --> 01:56:17,340
Speaker 9: And maybe they're not achieving the great success rate that

1957
01:56:17,380 --> 01:56:20,860
Speaker 9: they might want, but they realize that for anybody in

1958
01:56:21,340 --> 01:56:24,260
Speaker 9: the in the Christian community, that life has a struggle

1959
01:56:24,460 --> 01:56:27,860
Speaker 9: against temptations and so forth, and you're going to stumble

1960
01:56:27,900 --> 01:56:31,620
Speaker 9: and fall, but our religion is about fall and redemption

1961
01:56:32,180 --> 01:56:34,540
Speaker 9: and then you get back up. Where I have a

1962
01:56:34,620 --> 01:56:37,140
Speaker 9: problem is with those who say, well, because I do it,

1963
01:56:37,380 --> 01:56:39,540
Speaker 9: it can't be a sin or must not be a sin,

1964
01:56:39,620 --> 01:56:40,540
Speaker 9: because I'm the one that did.

1965
01:56:41,020 --> 01:56:43,660
Speaker 3: The call of God to the people of God is

1966
01:56:43,700 --> 01:56:45,980
Speaker 3: to love sinners. I mean, I had a lady in

1967
01:56:46,340 --> 01:56:48,700
Speaker 3: our parking lot one time and she said, what do

1968
01:56:48,740 --> 01:56:50,940
Speaker 3: you have to do to become to at tend your church?

1969
01:56:50,940 --> 01:56:52,140
Speaker 3: And I said, well, first of all, you have to

1970
01:56:52,140 --> 01:56:55,140
Speaker 3: be a sinner, And she says, all I qualify, I mean,

1971
01:56:55,180 --> 01:56:58,100
Speaker 3: we are all. Our church is made up of major sinners,

1972
01:56:58,180 --> 01:57:00,820
Speaker 3: of which the senior pastor happens to be one of them.

1973
01:57:01,940 --> 01:57:05,420
Speaker 3: But I think, like Father said, there, it is the

1974
01:57:05,580 --> 01:57:07,820
Speaker 3: church's responsibility to say, thus saith.

1975
01:57:07,860 --> 01:57:11,540
Speaker 4: The Lord God says this is best. This is a sin,

1976
01:57:12,100 --> 01:57:14,420
Speaker 4: and I'll just give you a right now.

1977
01:57:15,100 --> 01:57:17,940
Speaker 3: If a couple, in fact, we had we've had this happen,

1978
01:57:18,100 --> 01:57:21,500
Speaker 3: couple living together, come to our church, we love them,

1979
01:57:21,980 --> 01:57:25,660
Speaker 3: We say we're glad you're here, we want you to

1980
01:57:25,740 --> 01:57:29,020
Speaker 3: come back, but we also need you to know that

1981
01:57:29,100 --> 01:57:31,300
Speaker 3: if you ever desire to be a member of our church,

1982
01:57:31,700 --> 01:57:34,300
Speaker 3: the Bible says that if you're having sexual relationship, you

1983
01:57:34,380 --> 01:57:36,020
Speaker 3: need to be married. And we've had people say, gee,

1984
01:57:36,060 --> 01:57:38,340
Speaker 3: that's awful restrictive and leave.

1985
01:57:39,300 --> 01:57:40,220
Speaker 4: But we can't say.

1986
01:57:41,220 --> 01:57:43,660
Speaker 3: We can't say we're going to lower our standard anymore

1987
01:57:43,700 --> 01:57:45,540
Speaker 3: than if someone came and said, you know, I'm an

1988
01:57:45,540 --> 01:57:47,340
Speaker 3: abusive husband, and we.

1989
01:57:47,460 --> 01:57:48,740
Speaker 4: Said, you know that's wrong.

1990
01:57:49,780 --> 01:57:52,900
Speaker 3: Gee, bigots, don't you want don't you want these men

1991
01:57:52,980 --> 01:57:55,020
Speaker 3: in your church? Well, yeah, we want them in their church.

1992
01:57:55,820 --> 01:57:59,220
Speaker 3: But God has called us to God has set the standard.

1993
01:57:59,420 --> 01:58:01,780
Speaker 3: We don't set the standard. God has called us to

1994
01:58:01,900 --> 01:58:04,820
Speaker 3: preach the standard. And the standard that he has set

1995
01:58:04,980 --> 01:58:07,140
Speaker 3: is man woman marriage.

1996
01:58:07,420 --> 01:58:08,380
Speaker 4: Sex inside of that.

1997
01:58:09,340 --> 01:58:11,660
Speaker 2: I'm going to we have to conclude, and I thank

1998
01:58:11,700 --> 01:58:14,180
Speaker 2: you for that challenge. Sir. I want to ask the

1999
01:58:14,260 --> 01:58:17,500
Speaker 2: Pastor Hanson a final question and then just think, thank

2000
01:58:17,620 --> 01:58:18,820
Speaker 2: the distinguished clergy.

2001
01:58:20,100 --> 01:58:21,700
Speaker 4: Did he say, distinguished clergy?

2002
01:58:22,340 --> 01:58:25,340
Speaker 2: Yes, the distinguished clergy, Yes you are is a very

2003
01:58:25,420 --> 01:58:29,500
Speaker 2: wonderful panel, Pastor Hansen, I am just curious. It's purely curious,

2004
01:58:29,580 --> 01:58:33,060
Speaker 2: a human question. It's not a theological one when you

2005
01:58:33,340 --> 01:58:36,460
Speaker 2: hear what all of us have said. And by the way,

2006
01:58:36,580 --> 01:58:39,380
Speaker 2: I have a tremendous thanks to you for coming, and

2007
01:58:39,700 --> 01:58:46,620
Speaker 2: he deserves a real thanks. What ques This has been

2008
01:58:46,900 --> 01:58:48,900
Speaker 2: timeless wisdom with Dennis Prager.

2009
01:58:49,340 --> 01:58:53,980
Speaker 1: Visit dennispragger dot com for thousands of hours of Dennis's lectures, courses,

2010
01:58:54,060 --> 01:58:58,700
Speaker 1: and classic radio programs, and to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles.