1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,640
Speaker 1: You probably can't escape this anywhere you go, can you.

2
00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:07,240
Speaker 2: My pastor and his wife were in Israel. She text me.

3
00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:09,520
Speaker 2: She was like, We're in a coffee shop and Billy

4
00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:11,600
Speaker 2: Jean is playing. This is crazy.

5
00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:14,400
Speaker 1: What does the public know about your mom?

6
00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,680
Speaker 3: They would say that she's a stalker, that she used

7
00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,599
Speaker 3: to break into Michael Jackson's house, that she claimed to

8
00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,520
Speaker 3: have kids of his in her mind. This was the

9
00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,439
Speaker 3: truth because that's who Michael was to me. She always

10
00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:28,040
Speaker 3: told me that that's your dad.

11
00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:29,160
Speaker 2: Michael's your dad.

12
00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,639
Speaker 3: I'm not exactly sure what was the catalyst, Like, why

13
00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,120
Speaker 3: was Michael the one that she chose to fantasize about.

14
00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:37,920
Speaker 3: And it's been journey in itself to even get even

15
00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,440
Speaker 3: getting sitting here with you has been the lord opened

16
00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:41,720
Speaker 3: door after door.

17
00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:46,720
Speaker 1: Michael Jackson's nineteen eighty three mega hit song Billy Jean

18
00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,479
Speaker 1: was partly named after your mom. We're gonna go into

19
00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:53,960
Speaker 1: your story, but maybe you could tell us why you

20
00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,040
Speaker 1: wouldn't let your kids listen to Billy Jean growing up.

21
00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,760
Speaker 3: For me, it was not just a song for me,

22
00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:07,280
Speaker 3: it was a reminder of my entire childhood. So Billy

23
00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,800
Speaker 3: Jean was mom, and she'd always told us that's who

24
00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,040
Speaker 3: she was. She'd always told us that's what the song,

25
00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,080
Speaker 3: what he wrote about, and so hearing it, it was

26
00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:21,480
Speaker 3: almost like reliving parts of like your childhood and all

27
00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:25,560
Speaker 3: of the things that that song entailed. And I didn't

28
00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:27,840
Speaker 3: I wasn't even ready at the time to explain it

29
00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:31,760
Speaker 3: to my kids, like why why this had such a

30
00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,600
Speaker 3: weight for me and what it meant, you know, because

31
00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,920
Speaker 3: they didn't. They didn't they never met her, and they

32
00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,520
Speaker 3: didn't know all of my story. They knew bits and pieces,

33
00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,840
Speaker 3: but they really didn't understand the full picture. And so

34
00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,680
Speaker 3: for you know, and they're little at the time, of course,

35
00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:49,880
Speaker 3: and so I didn't.

36
00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,440
Speaker 2: I just didn't want that to be part of their childhood.

37
00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,480
Speaker 3: And I think that's maybe what it was, is separating

38
00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:56,320
Speaker 3: the childhoods.

39
00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:58,720
Speaker 2: That was my childhood and that.

40
00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,680
Speaker 3: Was my experience, but I don't want that to be

41
00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:07,120
Speaker 3: their childhood because it can be so overshadowing, I think, and.

42
00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,040
Speaker 2: Honestly, and it was a lot of fear. It was

43
00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,200
Speaker 2: a fear of.

44
00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,840
Speaker 3: Opening this up, you know, and talking about this too much,

45
00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,080
Speaker 3: so because we always lived like this was just something

46
00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:20,959
Speaker 3: you don't talk about.

47
00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,640
Speaker 1: Oh wow, Okay, now we're going to get into your

48
00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,400
Speaker 1: story and Billy Jean, for some people are going, wait

49
00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,720
Speaker 1: a minute, what is the song even about. She was

50
00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,560
Speaker 1: also referred to as Michael Jackson's stalker, which we will

51
00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,000
Speaker 1: get to. I remember the first time you were sharing

52
00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,040
Speaker 1: this with me, and I was blown away about it.

53
00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,880
Speaker 1: There's a redemptive arc to your story that's so powerful,

54
00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,360
Speaker 1: because I think some people were thinking, why are we

55
00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,640
Speaker 1: sharing this story on an apologetic channel? Where's this going?

56
00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,440
Speaker 1: We will fill in some of those gaps, but we

57
00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,320
Speaker 1: were sitting there this morning. It was you and your husband, Matt,

58
00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,040
Speaker 1: who was one of my basketball teammates here years ago

59
00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,359
Speaker 1: in the nineties at Biola, and I'm sitting there thinking,

60
00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,359
Speaker 1: you know what, this song is gonna come on. There

61
00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:08,959
Speaker 1: was eighty songs that were on and I'm like, it's

62
00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,640
Speaker 1: just gonna come on. You probably can't escape this anywhere

63
00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:14,280
Speaker 1: you go, can you. No.

64
00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:14,920
Speaker 2: It's funny.

65
00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:20,760
Speaker 3: My pastor and his wife were in Israel and I

66
00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,320
Speaker 3: told her. We had them over for dinner one night

67
00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,679
Speaker 3: and we kind of I told them all of my

68
00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,040
Speaker 3: testimony and they were in Israel and she texted me.

69
00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,320
Speaker 3: She was like, We're in a coffee shop and Billy

70
00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:33,440
Speaker 3: Gene is playing this is crazy.

71
00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,360
Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, it's everywhere.

72
00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:38,360
Speaker 1: So not only it happened, but she felt the need

73
00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:43,600
Speaker 1: to let you know that it happened. Okay, so again

74
00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:45,920
Speaker 1: this story. All I can say is the word that

75
00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,600
Speaker 1: comes to mind is I was flabbergasted because I've known

76
00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,560
Speaker 1: you and your husband back in the nineties, maybe two

77
00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:53,480
Speaker 1: years ago. We were sitting down, You're sharing this to man,

78
00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,240
Speaker 1: I'm like, wait a minute, what is happening. But before

79
00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,880
Speaker 1: we get to it, tell us why are you stories

80
00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:01,400
Speaker 1: sharing your story now?

81
00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,200
Speaker 3: Well, like I said, there was a fear of always

82
00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,720
Speaker 3: kind of letting it out. But I think the biggest

83
00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,760
Speaker 3: thing is Mom just passed away two years ago, and

84
00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:18,880
Speaker 3: it was almost like like a release, you know, because

85
00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,960
Speaker 3: we didn't want this to bring light to her negatively.

86
00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:27,279
Speaker 3: She already has enough you know, negative attention from her past,

87
00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:29,120
Speaker 3: and so I never I didn't want to add to

88
00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,920
Speaker 3: that or add to her own experience, and and.

89
00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:35,560
Speaker 2: So it just it didn't feel right.

90
00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:41,280
Speaker 3: I also, you know, I have kids, and I'm doing

91
00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:45,240
Speaker 3: life really you know, doing life and doing ministry and

92
00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,760
Speaker 3: working and traveling, and and so it just it wasn't

93
00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:50,840
Speaker 3: it didn't feel like the right time. And I really

94
00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,960
Speaker 3: didn't feel like the release to say okay, you know,

95
00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,839
Speaker 3: because I told parts of my testimony in childhood and

96
00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,560
Speaker 3: have told more over the years, but it just didn't

97
00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,120
Speaker 3: feel like the right time until she passed away and

98
00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,800
Speaker 3: kind of reconciling, like your whole childhood when you step.

99
00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:12,279
Speaker 2: Back and you go, okay, I think it's time now.

100
00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,680
Speaker 3: And so that was really the I'd say two years ago,

101
00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,120
Speaker 3: because I'd always thought about writing it and I'd always

102
00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:19,839
Speaker 3: wanted to share more.

103
00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:22,920
Speaker 2: But that's when it was like, Okay.

104
00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:25,760
Speaker 1: I think this is time you felt permission to do

105
00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,479
Speaker 1: so just personally and relationally with the other people in

106
00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:30,480
Speaker 1: your life. And we talked about this a little bit,

107
00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,480
Speaker 1: like once you share the story, you can't put the

108
00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:35,880
Speaker 1: genie back in the bottle, or the toothpaste back in

109
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,520
Speaker 1: the bottle, whatever metaphor we want to use. It's out there.

110
00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,440
Speaker 1: So you've thought a lot about your family, your life,

111
00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,080
Speaker 1: your ministry, and felt like now is the time you

112
00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,440
Speaker 1: want to share the story, and not just to share

113
00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,840
Speaker 1: the story because it's dramatic, and it is. It's a

114
00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:55,520
Speaker 1: drama filled, powerful story, but the redemptive arc and you

115
00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,640
Speaker 1: and I especially do in theme fill program together in

116
00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,640
Speaker 1: the early two thousands. There's an apologetics philosophy angle to

117
00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,360
Speaker 1: who you are and what brought you to Christ. We're

118
00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:08,760
Speaker 1: going to get to that, but let's start kind of

119
00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:13,320
Speaker 1: at the beginning. What does the public know about your mom?

120
00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:18,200
Speaker 3: So if they were to google her, they would say

121
00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:22,240
Speaker 3: that she's a stalker, that she used to break into

122
00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,400
Speaker 3: Michael Jackson's house, that she claimed to have kids of his,

123
00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:28,600
Speaker 3: and that she.

124
00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,520
Speaker 2: Sued them and sued his kids.

125
00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,960
Speaker 3: I think she sued blanket I want to say, I'm

126
00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,000
Speaker 3: want to say like a billion dollars or some meal.

127
00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:38,279
Speaker 1: It was.

128
00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:42,400
Speaker 3: It was after Michael passed away that she sued them again.

129
00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,080
Speaker 3: So the public knows her as someone that you know,

130
00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:51,360
Speaker 3: has been his stalker and kind of to probably terrorize

131
00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:56,240
Speaker 3: the family a little bit, which is hard in my

132
00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,920
Speaker 3: mind because I know her, you know, like this little person.

133
00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:04,000
Speaker 3: But that's so it's it's it's all negative. And they

134
00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,719
Speaker 3: probably they know her of someone who's mentally ill, because

135
00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:08,800
Speaker 3: the things that she says and the claims that she

136
00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:13,040
Speaker 3: makes are so outrageous and so and to make it

137
00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,880
Speaker 3: towards Michael Jackson is just it's outrageous.

138
00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:20,080
Speaker 2: So I would say that's who people know her as.

139
00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fair that they would have that. I was

140
00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,840
Speaker 1: reading there's an article, I mean, just the week we're

141
00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,840
Speaker 1: recording this, and the title was, was there a real

142
00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,239
Speaker 1: Billy Jean? Here's what we actually know forty years later.

143
00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,560
Speaker 1: So this is one of the most recognizable, you know,

144
00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,320
Speaker 1: rock songs of all time. I mean, everybody knows it.

145
00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,760
Speaker 1: My kids know it, and they are, you know, two

146
00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,360
Speaker 1: generations removed from this song, and just last week they're

147
00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:51,280
Speaker 1: talking about it and what the way they describe I'll

148
00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:52,800
Speaker 1: read the way they describe that. I want to get

149
00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,840
Speaker 1: your reaction. There's debate about whether the song Billy Jean

150
00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:59,760
Speaker 1: is really about just kind of the groupies that would

151
00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:04,080
Speaker 1: fall Michael Jackson. That narrative was put out there, but

152
00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:08,360
Speaker 1: then in the nineteen ninety one biography, which is called

153
00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:13,960
Speaker 1: The Magic and the Madness, Randy Tarbarelli, according to more

154
00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:19,320
Speaker 1: multiple reports, said the singer allegedly began receiving multiple letters

155
00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:21,680
Speaker 1: from a woman claiming that he'd fathered a child with

156
00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,160
Speaker 1: her two years before the song was released, despite the

157
00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,720
Speaker 1: two having never met. Then, it says the letters kept

158
00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,600
Speaker 1: coming and began to take a negative toll on Jackson's

159
00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,880
Speaker 1: mental health. Thanks finally reached your breaking point after the

160
00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,200
Speaker 1: fans sent a package to his home that included a

161
00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,800
Speaker 1: picture of her and a gun with instructions to kill

162
00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,560
Speaker 1: himself at a certain time. This is from the Root

163
00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,640
Speaker 1: dot com. In return, she'd do the same to her

164
00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:47,959
Speaker 1: and their alleged child so they could all reunite in

165
00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,439
Speaker 1: the next lifetime together. Thankfully, the woman didn't go through it.

166
00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,480
Speaker 1: Jackson later found out that she'd been sent to a

167
00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:58,520
Speaker 1: psychiatric ward. Now at the bottom of this, they're like,

168
00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:00,760
Speaker 1: we don't really know the events. We're not sure, but

169
00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,440
Speaker 1: it makes a song compelling, which is a separate issue.

170
00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,959
Speaker 1: What's your reaction when you hear this just last week

171
00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,200
Speaker 1: like this just people are not going to stop talking

172
00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:09,600
Speaker 1: about this.

173
00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:15,240
Speaker 3: I well, I never heard that about the gun. I

174
00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:19,960
Speaker 3: didn't know that that she'd sent him anything in the

175
00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:24,040
Speaker 3: mail or anything like that. But I know that she

176
00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:29,520
Speaker 3: she made these claims. I know that she believe these claims,

177
00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,960
Speaker 3: and in her mind this was the truth because that's

178
00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,360
Speaker 3: who Michael was to me, Like, she always told me

179
00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:41,440
Speaker 3: that that's your dad. Michael's your dad, So I know

180
00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,720
Speaker 3: that she believed them. So it's kind of I guess

181
00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:47,560
Speaker 3: it makes a little bit of sense because I knew

182
00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,040
Speaker 3: they were always afraid of her, and so the gun thing,

183
00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,800
Speaker 3: I think that's I wonder if that's connected to her.

184
00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,360
Speaker 2: Could be. I mean, who knows.

185
00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:58,800
Speaker 3: You know, when you're mentally ill and you have a

186
00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,120
Speaker 3: false sense of reality, you do all types of things,

187
00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:03,600
Speaker 3: and so worst thing you can.

188
00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:04,600
Speaker 2: Do is lie to your child.

189
00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,640
Speaker 3: And so to me, the line to the children is

190
00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,400
Speaker 3: way worse than the threatening of a gun.

191
00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,280
Speaker 1: If that makes sense, Yeah, no, it does. And part

192
00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,320
Speaker 1: of this is clearly unraveling what's true, what's fiction, what's

193
00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,080
Speaker 1: made up? And you've got a story to tell, and

194
00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,559
Speaker 1: we're gonna unpack some of this. So the version of

195
00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,720
Speaker 1: your mom, and I mean jshlyn as I remember probably

196
00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,880
Speaker 1: when I was in the eighties hearing about Michael Jackson

197
00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:30,840
Speaker 1: stalker and it was all over the news, and it

198
00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:35,160
Speaker 1: was always somebody out there. It feels very distant and

199
00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:37,280
Speaker 1: I don't remember, but probably the time I was like, wow,

200
00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,840
Speaker 1: that person's probably crazy, didn't give it a second thought,

201
00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:41,640
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, you're sharing with me,

202
00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:46,000
Speaker 1: Oh no, Sean, that's my mom. I like got goosebumps,

203
00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,800
Speaker 1: and I was like Okay, wait a minute. This is a

204
00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,160
Speaker 1: real person, this is a real story, and somehow like

205
00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,280
Speaker 1: I'm connected to this. So you've talked about the public

206
00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,959
Speaker 1: image of your mom, Maybe pull back the veil a

207
00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,160
Speaker 1: little bit and tell who she was to you and

208
00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,760
Speaker 1: maybe something about her you would want people to know

209
00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:07,720
Speaker 1: apart from what they read on Google or have heard

210
00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:09,080
Speaker 1: maybe on YouTube or something.

211
00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:15,960
Speaker 3: Mom struggled with her illness and with having children and

212
00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,240
Speaker 3: being a single woman. I'm sure contributed a lot to

213
00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,559
Speaker 3: why she made some of the decisions that she made.

214
00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:25,199
Speaker 2: And I'm not.

215
00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,040
Speaker 3: Exactly sure what was the catalyst, Like why was Michael

216
00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,560
Speaker 3: the one that she chose to fantasize about. I do

217
00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:33,920
Speaker 3: remember one time when we were in our apartment we

218
00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:39,000
Speaker 3: were living in Palatine and Illinois, where Thriller was playing on,

219
00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:43,400
Speaker 3: you know, on the TV. And she would like love

220
00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,400
Speaker 3: to see me like sing and dance to that, you know.

221
00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:48,880
Speaker 1: And so I know, you're eight or ten years old,

222
00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:50,199
Speaker 1: like a kid, yeah.

223
00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:51,079
Speaker 2: Even you know, I had to be.

224
00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,520
Speaker 3: I was maybe like seven, oh wow, And so she

225
00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,960
Speaker 3: would love to have like that playing and you know,

226
00:11:58,200 --> 00:11:59,720
Speaker 3: and I used to grow up saying too, I'm going

227
00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:01,520
Speaker 3: to be a singer. When I grew up, like that's

228
00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:05,280
Speaker 3: what I wanted to be, and she loved that. That

229
00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,000
Speaker 3: that's what you know, my dreams were. And so but

230
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,480
Speaker 3: she was like, I know she loved us. I know

231
00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,960
Speaker 3: she like she loved her kids, but I also know

232
00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:20,920
Speaker 3: this illness was so overshadowing to her love normally for

233
00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,920
Speaker 3: a child, that that's why we had the childhood that

234
00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,000
Speaker 3: we had. That's why she did the things that she did,

235
00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,600
Speaker 3: was because of the mental illness. And I knew it

236
00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:34,880
Speaker 3: was a struggle, like I even have I still have

237
00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,120
Speaker 3: voice recordings from her, I still have letters from her,

238
00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,680
Speaker 3: and at times I can hear she's lucid where she says,

239
00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,839
Speaker 3: lenege I love you, and she'll apologize.

240
00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:45,880
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness.

241
00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:50,120
Speaker 3: And then I have voice recordings where she's cussing me

242
00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:54,079
Speaker 3: out and telling me, you know, your problems are because

243
00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,719
Speaker 3: Michael's mad at you, and Michael's the reason if you

244
00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,120
Speaker 3: had treated you know, his wife better, you know, Michael

245
00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,840
Speaker 3: would have been better to you. And so so like

246
00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,360
Speaker 3: I know, like that's who she is. She struggled with

247
00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:12,120
Speaker 3: that that you know, those tensions, and I would say

248
00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:13,839
Speaker 3: she struggled with it all the way up until the

249
00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:14,679
Speaker 3: day that she died.

250
00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:23,000
Speaker 1: So you described growing up with a single mom. Your

251
00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,959
Speaker 1: biological dad, what do you know about him? When did

252
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,720
Speaker 1: you learn that? Like, actually, friend this way, what do

253
00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,440
Speaker 1: you know about your biological father? And it sounds like

254
00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,640
Speaker 1: you really believed that Michael was your father for a while.

255
00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,200
Speaker 1: When did you hear that? How much did you believe that? Like,

256
00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:42,079
Speaker 1: help us understand that piece of the puzzle.

257
00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,560
Speaker 3: So the these are like multiple layers like.

258
00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:48,320
Speaker 1: Whatever you want to get into.

259
00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:52,240
Speaker 3: So the the one layer was that Michael was my dad.

260
00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,120
Speaker 3: And I even brought like letters that she wrote for

261
00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,680
Speaker 3: me from prison. So like this one is she says,

262
00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,640
Speaker 3: I'm at the police station by by the Van Nuys.

263
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,240
Speaker 2: Courtroom doing court now.

264
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,760
Speaker 3: And then so she wrote me this letter and or

265
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:11,000
Speaker 3: this postcard and she talks about mommy and you know,

266
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:12,760
Speaker 3: we miss you and we're gonna go home soon.

267
00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,800
Speaker 2: And home was Michael Jackson's.

268
00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,200
Speaker 1: Address actually put it on there.

269
00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:21,720
Speaker 2: Yes, So some of these I didn't get.

270
00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,160
Speaker 1: When How did these? When did these date from?

271
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,720
Speaker 2: So this had to be this was I mean, even.

272
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:27,840
Speaker 1: Just roughly if you had to.

273
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:29,080
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't even know when.

274
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,160
Speaker 3: Oh no, maybe she this is October thirtieth, nineteen ninety five,

275
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,520
Speaker 3: so she was still Yeah, so I was just a

276
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,240
Speaker 3: student at Baiola at that point, and so when we

277
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,080
Speaker 3: were very protective, she never really knew where I lived.

278
00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:48,560
Speaker 3: She didn't know really anything about me because and foster

279
00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,400
Speaker 3: care was always the danger that she was going to

280
00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,320
Speaker 3: come kidnap me and try to take me back home.

281
00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,840
Speaker 3: And the same with my younger brother and sister. So

282
00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,320
Speaker 3: it was always this, you know, fear, like mommy know

283
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:02,200
Speaker 3: where we are. And so even some of these letters

284
00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,440
Speaker 3: after I got adopted, they kept some of these from me,

285
00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,680
Speaker 3: but I already knew everything, like she had already told

286
00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,720
Speaker 3: me all of this when we talked to her, so

287
00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,240
Speaker 3: that that was the understanding of who Michael was. And

288
00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,200
Speaker 3: I remember one time I was in a police station

289
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,400
Speaker 3: and I was standing there with the twins. It's my

290
00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,480
Speaker 3: younger brother and sister, and he said, well, you know,

291
00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:28,000
Speaker 3: little girl, where's like where your parents, where's your home?

292
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,400
Speaker 3: Like who do you kind of belong to? And I

293
00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,840
Speaker 3: looked at him and I said, well, Michael Jackson's my dad,

294
00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,640
Speaker 3: And like at first they like kind of chuckled, but

295
00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:39,240
Speaker 3: then they.

296
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,480
Speaker 1: Were like, oh, she believes this.

297
00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:42,600
Speaker 2: She believes this.

298
00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:47,560
Speaker 3: So that that had to be probably shocking for them

299
00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:51,560
Speaker 3: not knowing what do we do with these people because we.

300
00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:52,320
Speaker 2: Don't know who they are.

301
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:54,640
Speaker 3: So that was kind of an understanding of who Michael

302
00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,400
Speaker 3: was my birth father. I actually didn't meet until I

303
00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,360
Speaker 3: was nineteen, until I was at biold.

304
00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:00,240
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness.

305
00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,000
Speaker 3: And that is that's the other side of my story

306
00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,600
Speaker 3: dealing with the Nation of Islam because he was part

307
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,800
Speaker 3: of the Nation of Islam and mom worked for Elijah

308
00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:12,920
Speaker 3: Mohammad and their offices.

309
00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,120
Speaker 1: I know, it gets I know, keep going, it gets insane.

310
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:20,680
Speaker 3: And so I actually grew up my name was my

311
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,880
Speaker 3: name was leneje but because we were, you know, converted

312
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:26,640
Speaker 3: to the Nation of Islam, I was actually a Mina

313
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,920
Speaker 3: Mohammad and so it was a mina and then my

314
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,960
Speaker 3: younger brother and sister or aunt, Sarah Naisha Muhammad.

315
00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:38,520
Speaker 2: So by the time that I met him at nineteen, I.

316
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,160
Speaker 3: Knew, Ah, this is the dad that's part of the

317
00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,520
Speaker 3: Nation of Islam, because that's when she met him. And

318
00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,280
Speaker 3: that's who the twins father was someone else who was

319
00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,600
Speaker 3: in Chicago and so and they were part of the

320
00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,440
Speaker 3: Nation of Islam. So we have like a whole separate

321
00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,160
Speaker 3: family that has deep roots in Islam.

322
00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,200
Speaker 1: So I want to circle back to that piece of

323
00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,400
Speaker 1: Islam because this ties into some of the reasons why

324
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:04,359
Speaker 1: you're Christian, your study and apologetics. But you were raised

325
00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,359
Speaker 1: by a single mom, But you also described foster care.

326
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,480
Speaker 1: So what are some of your early memories and being

327
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:13,719
Speaker 1: reader mom? And roughly how old were you when you

328
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:15,480
Speaker 1: shifted into the foster care system.

329
00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,280
Speaker 3: So I was in and out of foster care starting

330
00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:23,160
Speaker 3: at three years old, and some of them I don't

331
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,160
Speaker 3: remember why, and I assume it's because she was struggling

332
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,359
Speaker 3: with her illness. I had an older brother who was

333
00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:35,440
Speaker 3: a runaway and was abused. I believe she abused him

334
00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:40,520
Speaker 3: pretty badly because his birth father also abused her, and

335
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,520
Speaker 3: so he was always in and out of our homes

336
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:48,480
Speaker 3: and always you know, getting into trouble, and so that's

337
00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,040
Speaker 3: kind of like that was kind of the family dynamics.

338
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:54,120
Speaker 2: What was the other part you asked me?

339
00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,520
Speaker 1: You said, I was asking about when what your life

340
00:17:57,560 --> 00:17:59,919
Speaker 1: was like with your mom growing up, what memories you had,

341
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,399
Speaker 1: and then when you enter the foster care system. But

342
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,240
Speaker 1: you said at three you were kind of coming in

343
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,320
Speaker 1: and out, So that means you were in the foster

344
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,200
Speaker 1: caare system back with your mom, like that was kind

345
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:09,000
Speaker 1: of a process.

346
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,400
Speaker 3: It was kind of the norm to be in and out,

347
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,159
Speaker 3: And it wasn't until the final time where she dropped

348
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,000
Speaker 3: us off at the well, it's a longer story, but

349
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,080
Speaker 3: at that police station where I was in the foster

350
00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,760
Speaker 3: care system permanently with the twins, and so then that

351
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:25,760
Speaker 3: was from seven years old.

352
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,280
Speaker 1: All seven years old, you were okay tell that story

353
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,480
Speaker 1: of how she dropped off there and what happened.

354
00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,879
Speaker 3: So we were we left Chicago and we were on

355
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:37,639
Speaker 3: our way. She wanted to She told us we're going home.

356
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,600
Speaker 3: And the reasons why were some of the trouble that

357
00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,600
Speaker 3: she's gotten into in Palatine and some of the abuse

358
00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,520
Speaker 3: that I was experiencing that the social services were now

359
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:49,800
Speaker 3: aware of, and they I'm pretty sure they were like

360
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,800
Speaker 3: coming probably to get us. She had already abandoned us

361
00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,040
Speaker 3: one time for a couple of weeks where I was

362
00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,400
Speaker 3: taking care of the twins by myself at seven, and

363
00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,399
Speaker 3: some of the neighbors kept stopping by, like, why where's

364
00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:06,960
Speaker 3: your mom? You know, Mina, where is she? And I

365
00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,440
Speaker 3: just say, she's coming back, She's coming back. But after,

366
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:11,960
Speaker 3: you know, a week after week, she she wasn't there,

367
00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:14,240
Speaker 3: and so she finally did come back and she got

368
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,120
Speaker 3: us and she took us on Amtrak train I'll never

369
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:23,840
Speaker 3: forget from Illinois to California. And we had no money,

370
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,320
Speaker 3: and I remember sitting on the train. I think she

371
00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:28,479
Speaker 3: had something like sixty dollars. I don't even know why

372
00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:30,520
Speaker 3: I remember that number. But we were sitting on the

373
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,760
Speaker 3: train and the guy, the conductor looked at us and

374
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:35,200
Speaker 3: he said, where are your tickets?

375
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,160
Speaker 2: And she said, we don't have any tickets.

376
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:43,360
Speaker 3: And he let us stay, oh on the train, amazing

377
00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,359
Speaker 3: and ride free all the way to Los Angeles. And

378
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,160
Speaker 3: so then that's when we went from you know, from

379
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,680
Speaker 3: Amtrak station in Los Angeles up to Encino to Michael

380
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:57,920
Speaker 3: Jackson's house and we lived outside like in the dirt, the.

381
00:19:57,880 --> 00:19:58,560
Speaker 2: Four of us.

382
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,879
Speaker 1: Okay, so shrum track and you're on the train with

383
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,399
Speaker 1: sixty dollars, you, your mom, and the twins. And the

384
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,080
Speaker 1: twins which is a brother and a sister, and they're

385
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,120
Speaker 1: younger than you. Yes, two, there are four or five?

386
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,080
Speaker 2: They were like they I don't know, maybe two.

387
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,480
Speaker 1: Oh, so they're five years younger than you. Okay, so

388
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:19,920
Speaker 1: six years younger, six years younger. So you come out

389
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,400
Speaker 1: to California, first stop, go straight to Michael Jackson's house

390
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,720
Speaker 1: and start just living out there.

391
00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,000
Speaker 3: We go to his house and she proceeds to walk

392
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,760
Speaker 3: us in the gate. Oh wow, because for her, we're

393
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,560
Speaker 3: going home, and so wow, get and I don't know

394
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,719
Speaker 3: any different. We have bags and I had I had

395
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,040
Speaker 3: to carry one of the twins, and I carried.

396
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:42,720
Speaker 2: My brother because my sister was a little chubbier.

397
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,320
Speaker 3: And we walk in the gate and then all of

398
00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:50,160
Speaker 3: the guards, you know, swarm us, and they knew who

399
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,480
Speaker 3: she was before because she'd broken in before. And so

400
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,640
Speaker 3: we kind of set up camp across, you know, across

401
00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:02,160
Speaker 3: the in front of his gate, outside waiting for him

402
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,680
Speaker 3: to let us, let us come home.

403
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,359
Speaker 1: Okay, when you say set up camp, like, help me

404
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:08,080
Speaker 1: picture that.

405
00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:09,720
Speaker 2: We just we just had.

406
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,280
Speaker 3: I don't what what's funny is. I remember sitting out there. Honestly,

407
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,600
Speaker 3: what I remember is like playing with snails, like I remember,

408
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,320
Speaker 3: just funny it just sitting there like they were just

409
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 3: like little snails. And I just remember us sitting there

410
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 3: and the twins were just kind of sitting on the

411
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,080
Speaker 3: ground like on a blanket, and we were just waiting

412
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,440
Speaker 3: and Mom kept trying to go to the gate, kept

413
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 3: trying to talk to someone, and we just waited, and

414
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,399
Speaker 3: then we would get hungry and we would go to

415
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,440
Speaker 3: a restaurant and she would order and we wouldn't have

416
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,439
Speaker 3: enough money, and I think they would feel sorry for us,

417
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,560
Speaker 3: you know, to see this family and this lady with

418
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,000
Speaker 3: these kids, and people would.

419
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:55,080
Speaker 2: They would feed us.

420
00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,800
Speaker 3: And sometimes we would be in the boots for hours

421
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 3: and hours just sitting there, and I know she was

422
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 3: trying to strategize, like trying to figure out what to do.

423
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 3: So that was that was a few weeks of that

424
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,639
Speaker 3: of back and forth randomly. I think one time we

425
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,399
Speaker 3: went to a hotel, we didn't have any money. They

426
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,639
Speaker 3: kicked us back out. We went back to you know,

427
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 3: sitting in front of Michael's house. And there were times,

428
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,679
Speaker 3: It's funny, there were times where the gate would open

429
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 3: and someone would come out and they would give us money,

430
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 3: and I if my memory serves correctly, I do remember

431
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 3: Michael's mom came out one time and gave money. And

432
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,960
Speaker 3: because remember he's Michael Jackson, so we weren't even the

433
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:41,960
Speaker 3: only ones out there.

434
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 1: Oh that makes sense. I didn't even think about that.

435
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 3: So there were like other people, you know, trying to

436
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 3: get a glimpse, trying to take a picture.

437
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 1: Like dozens of people just in and out and crowd yeah,

438
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:54,359
Speaker 1: like like NonStop flow of.

439
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, just randomly people around.

440
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 3: Some of the people you know knew her, and so yeah,

441
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:03,679
Speaker 3: every now and again, the gate would open. And I

442
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:05,920
Speaker 3: remember one time that I do believe his mom gave

443
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 3: us money and one of his sisters, but I don't

444
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:10,720
Speaker 3: remember which one. I want to remember thinking that she

445
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,400
Speaker 3: was so pretty, like I just don't remember which sister was.

446
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 2: But I do have this.

447
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 3: Odd memory of someone driving out dressed up funny like

448
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:27,679
Speaker 3: almost like a clown weird thing, and everyone ran, like

449
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 3: Mom ran, and they knew it was Michael because he

450
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 3: used to dress up. And now, you know, all of

451
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,360
Speaker 3: this stuff doesn't click until you get older and you realize, oh,

452
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,159
Speaker 3: that was that person that was dressed up like that

453
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 3: because he wanted to be able to go around town

454
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 3: and drive himself.

455
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 2: But if they recognized.

456
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 3: Him, and so I do remember that one time, like

457
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 3: Mom ran to the car, and I don't know what

458
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 3: they talked about then.

459
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 1: So if you're seven, I'm guessing we're about the same

460
00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 1: age roughly, So this is probably a two eighty three,

461
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 1: which is probably the year that the song Billy Jean

462
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:06,679
Speaker 1: came out as a part of Thriller, would have been

463
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 1: eighty three. So that's the time. You're out there for

464
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: probably two weeks, as best you can tell, just kind

465
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 1: of basically living on the streets, getting food from whoever

466
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:18,919
Speaker 1: will pay for you. And it sounds like there were

467
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 1: a few angels that just could tell here's a hurting

468
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 1: meeting family, and even Michael Jackson's family came out and

469
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 1: sometimes specifically gave money, probably just felt bad and wanted

470
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,679
Speaker 1: to help on some level. Okay, So did that for

471
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 1: two weeks, and at this point you truly believe he's

472
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,160
Speaker 1: your dad. That's what you had been told in at seven.

473
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 1: Of course, you believe what's told to you. So you're

474
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: probably having some seven or eight seven or eight, okay,

475
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 1: So you have some anticipation of like, eventually we're going

476
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 1: into this beautiful mansion. I mean, your hopes were high.

477
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 1: What happened at the end of that two weeks, So.

478
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 3: It was one night we were she hailed a cab

479
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:04,160
Speaker 3: down and we'd actually out in life really bad, and

480
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 3: and so that was a whole experience and so she

481
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 3: hailed this cab down and we were in the cabin.

482
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 3: It was late at night, and the cab got a

483
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,679
Speaker 3: flat tire, and she asked the cab driver can we

484
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 3: sleep in the cab and he said yes, and so

485
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 3: he pulled over and he let the four of us

486
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 3: sleep in the back of his cab and he slept

487
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 3: in the front seat. And early in the morning she

488
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 3: tapped me and she said, oh, yes, yeah, so he

489
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 3: you know, she he said yes, we could sleep in

490
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 3: the cab. And it was early in the morning, and

491
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 3: she tapped me and said, I'm going to go make.

492
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 2: A phone call.

493
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,880
Speaker 3: And I said, okay, sleepily, and then, you know, fell

494
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 3: back asleep and had maybe it was about an hour

495
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 3: hour or something. Later, the cab driver woke me up

496
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 3: and he was like, little girl, where's your mom? And

497
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 3: I said, she went to make a call. He was like,

498
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 3: that was a long time ago. Where is she?

499
00:25:58,359 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 2: And I said, I don't know.

500
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 3: And that was the last time that we saw her

501
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 3: outside of supervised visits or but that was the catalyst

502
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 3: for us to be permanently placed in foster care. And

503
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 3: it was a few years after that where Illinois severed

504
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 3: her rights. Her parental rights through the court system.

505
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: So this is how you ended up in the police station.

506
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: The next step is the cab drivers like you don't

507
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 1: have anybody caring for you. Police station process, get into

508
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 1: a family. So from seven through mentioned being adopted. What

509
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:34,440
Speaker 1: was that process?

510
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 3: So that was after a lot of foster homes and

511
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 3: a lot that weren't necessarily good and family and I'm sure,

512
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 3: like thinking back, like even my family that wasn't able

513
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 3: to keep me. You know, it's difficult. You know, kids

514
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 3: have a lot of baggage, and my baggage also came

515
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 3: with a woman that you never knew if she was

516
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 3: going to show up at your house, and that was

517
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 3: going to harass you to try to get her daughter back,

518
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,719
Speaker 3: And so it was hard, I'm sure for family to

519
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 3: keep me. But it was the last foster home that

520
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 3: was just it was very abusive and could have potentially

521
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 3: got really really bad where I called an aunt and

522
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 3: I said, you know, this is this is bad.

523
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: How old were you at this point?

524
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 2: Twelve?

525
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 1: You were twelve? Were the twins with you or it

526
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:28,719
Speaker 1: was just no?

527
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,959
Speaker 3: So we'd been separated, which I love that they don't

528
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 3: separate siblings now, but we'd been separated and they were

529
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 3: taken in by another aunt and uncle, and they were

530
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 3: raised in Georgia.

531
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 2: But Lavn fought them as well, trying to get you.

532
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 3: Know, parental rights back, and at one point she did

533
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 3: she was able to take them away, and then they

534
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 3: had to fight to get them back. And so that

535
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 3: was kind of our It was our childhood was in

536
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 3: and out and not just living in the system. But

537
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 3: this is them fighting her not to continue to do

538
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 3: more harm.

539
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: And so seven years old, abandoned in a taxi, going

540
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:14,959
Speaker 1: to the foster care system, separated from your siblings. At twelve,

541
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: you said the abuse got so bad you called an aunt.

542
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: What happened when you were twelve?

543
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 2: So the last foster home was.

544
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 3: By a lady and her and she had two children,

545
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 3: and I believe her boyfriend that was living at the

546
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,479
Speaker 3: house at the time. And I actually had just found

547
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 3: some of the letters that my aunt wrote to the

548
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 3: social worker, Joyce Dyson.

549
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 2: I'll never forget remember, yes.

550
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 3: Our social worker for years and years, and she wrote

551
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 3: Joyce to say, I need to get my niece out.

552
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 3: She's telling me odd things that are happening at the

553
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 3: home and things that sound like there's gonna be some

554
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 3: physical abuse that's going to start happening, and she was

555
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 3: really concerned about the sexual abuse that could occur at

556
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 3: the home. And you know, the foster mother was incredibly mean.

557
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 3: I shared a story at the Standardising conference about one

558
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 3: night I was having dinner and she she made like

559
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 3: this fried fish. And you know, kids, fried fish. That

560
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 3: sounds amazing. And as a kid, you know, you fill

561
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 3: your plate up and you eat it, and your eyes

562
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 3: are bigger than your stomach, so you think you can

563
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 3: eat more. And so I put more fish on my

564
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 3: plate and then I couldn't finish it. And I said, oh,

565
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 3: you know, I'm full. I can't eat anymore. And she said,

566
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 3: you will finish it. And so I sat there and

567
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 3: the fish sat on the plate and it gets cold

568
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 3: and soggy. And I sat there and she was yelling

569
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 3: and cussing and pacing back and forth, and she came

570
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 3: and sat in front of me and she was like,

571
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 3: you will eat it. And it probably had to be

572
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 3: an hour, two hours if not, and I said, I'm

573
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 3: not eating it.

574
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 2: And I just sat there.

575
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 3: And then she began to force feed the fish, and

576
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 3: I began to gag and throw up, and then she

577
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 3: began to force feed to throw up, and then you

578
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 3: know what happens is you began to throw up even more.

579
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 3: And that was kind of the final straw for me.

580
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 3: I was like, I'm I'm all done with this home, and.

581
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 2: So I did. I called my aunt and I didn't

582
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 2: tell her.

583
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 3: I told her that this was bad, and I had

584
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 3: been telling her some of you know, the things that

585
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 3: were going on, but they really limited. They only wanted

586
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 3: me to have phone calls with my family twice a month,

587
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 3: and my aunt was trying to get you know, twice

588
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 3: a week, and they were really fighting.

589
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 2: Back for me to have any communication.

590
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 3: And so I decided in my head and I didn't

591
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 3: tell my aunt this at the time, but I decided

592
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 3: in my head after I called her, if she didn't

593
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 3: come into I was going to.

594
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 2: Run away on the street to New York. And so

595
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 2: she was fighting.

596
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 3: And what's amazing is when I hear what she was

597
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 3: experiencing on the other end of how the Lord was working.

598
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 3: And that was one of the big things that I

599
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 3: shared was oftentimes in these situations and we don't see

600
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 3: where are you God in the midst of this, you know,

601
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 3: because I could seem like this forgotten child, this random

602
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 3: corner New York. No one cares about you anymore, and

603
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 3: it could feel like the world is against you. But

604
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 3: then when you see the lord's perspective, how he was

605
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 3: moving pieces on the other end from New York to California,

606
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 3: how he was orchestrating events so that I could be rescued.

607
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 3: And that was the other part of the stories showing

608
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 3: how she was working. My aunt was working to get classes,

609
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 3: you know, because she never wasn't married, didn't have children.

610
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 3: But they said, if you want her, you have to

611
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 3: take foster care class and all of this to you know,

612
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 3: prepare your and so she was like speeding through, like

613
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 3: trying to get all of these things done and trying

614
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 3: to make sure. And then it was at the very

615
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 3: end of the class, and it was with doctor mccungo Akinyela,

616
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 3: who was like, I can't remember, listen, I don't remember

617
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 3: what I bore yesterday. But he was one of the

618
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 3: ones who was really intricate in helping her, like finish

619
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 3: the classes and get all the training. And it was

620
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 3: at the very end, I believe the social worker was

621
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 3: coming something like that Monday, and she found out when

622
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 3: you bring a child into your home. You they have

623
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 3: to have like their own bed, own bedroom, and own bath.

624
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 3: And she panicked because she lived in a studio on

625
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 3: Barham and Oakwood apartments and she was like, I don't

626
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 3: have a bed for her.

627
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 2: You know, she had like the little pull out beds.

628
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 3: And I believe she went to her final, you know,

629
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 3: meeting with mcungo and you know, finished the training and

630
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 3: they said, let's pray, you know, we have to pray.

631
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 2: And she came back to her house and her house

632
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 2: was flooded.

633
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, so the entire so she was on

634
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 3: the bottom floor apartment one oh one, The entire building flooded.

635
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 3: The pipes broke, and her apartment is covered in feces,

636
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 3: and she has the pictures of she's just walking in

637
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 3: the midst of this and she's trying to pick up

638
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 3: things and she says all she could say was Romans,

639
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 3: All things work together for the good of those who

640
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 3: love the Lord and are called according to his purpose.

641
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 3: All things work together. And she's picking up things and

642
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 3: she the management comes and they're so apologetic, you know,

643
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 3: we're so like this should never happen. And they said,

644
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 3: we're gonna move you. We're going to give you a

645
00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 3: different apartment. And sure enough they move her up stairs

646
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 3: to apartment to oh one. Well, the second floor were

647
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 3: two bedroom, two bath apartments, amazing, fully furnished, amazing, And

648
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 3: she said she had just enough time. She went to

649
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 3: the store and she bought I think a Mickey Mouse poster.

650
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 3: She bought a little white teddy bear, which I still

651
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 3: have to this day to try to do little things

652
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 3: to make it, you know. And the social worker came

653
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 3: that Monday morning and she kept bringing one on one

654
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 3: and she said, oh no, it's apartment two oh one.

655
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 3: And the social worker came in and she was like, oh,

656
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 3: this is great because its perfect. Yes, And it was

657
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 3: within that like all of this happened.

658
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 2: Within the two week time frame.

659
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:48,720
Speaker 1: And so your aunt is this your mom's sister. Yes, okay,

660
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: so you're twelve, You move in with your aunt, lived

661
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 1: there for how long?

662
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 3: Oh, we lived in Barham maybe for about let me say, may,

663
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:02,720
Speaker 3: about a year. About a year or so. We moved

664
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 3: because we didn't they didn't. She didn't want me to

665
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:10,240
Speaker 3: be a part of the North Hollywood school district.

666
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: Oh, and so.

667
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 3: That like Barham was kind of like right on the border.

668
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 3: So that you would have to go to school in Hollywood.

669
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 1: So she's looking out for you again moving Is she

670
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 1: the one who adopted you?

671
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 2: She is?

672
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 1: Okay, you're aunted. Okay, So from twelve when you move

673
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,800
Speaker 1: in adopted by your aunt who sounds like an angel.

674
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,720
Speaker 1: By the way, how much was your mom a part

675
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: of it? Did you see her? Did you interact with her?

676
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: Like through say high school?

677
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:42,240
Speaker 3: It was more sporadic at that point. She was writing

678
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 3: me maybe some letters every now and then.

679
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 2: We tried to see her. So it was really.

680
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,280
Speaker 3: When I got older, a little bit older in high school,

681
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 3: that we would begin to go see her and see

682
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 3: like sometimes.

683
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,919
Speaker 2: We go see her in the mental institutions. But as she.

684
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 3: Got older, the fears, the paranoia became really evident, and

685
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 3: so she was scared of us A lot of time,

686
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 3: she was scared of everyone, and so she really began

687
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 3: to She isolated herself a lot, a lot, and so

688
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 3: it was during those times, which is sad, but her

689
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 3: paranoia actually kept her safe because she wind up usually

690
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 3: staying in one place, so we kind of knew where

691
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:33,399
Speaker 3: she was, so she wasn't as kind of I want

692
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 3: to say, active and stalking she It was kind of

693
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 3: in and out.

694
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 1: At that point when you say stalking, you might. So

695
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: this did continue even after when you were seven and

696
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 1: didn't see her anymore. I continued for a while.

697
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:48,479
Speaker 2: It did.

698
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 3: I was at Biola and my friend Amy said, she

699
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 3: was like, Hey, I need to talk to you. I

700
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 3: was like, what's up. She was like, did you see TMZ?

701
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 3: I'm like, no, it's on TMZ. She's like, your mom's

702
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 3: on TMZ. I was like, mom's on TMZ. Okay, She's like,

703
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 3: do you want to see it? I was like nope,

704
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 3: but okay. And I don't know if it was a

705
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 3: new one. I don't know how she found out about it,

706
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 3: but so it was she was in and out of

707
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 3: always institutionalized, trying to get stable, and then kind of

708
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 3: the urge to try to go back. But as she

709
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 3: got older, it just physically it was too much.

710
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 1: And so when did you find out and discover that

711
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 1: Michael Jackson was not your dad? Who broke that to you?

712
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: What was your response? Tell us that story if you will, You.

713
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 3: Know, I don't think everyone anyone ever told me oh.

714
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 2: I think I don't.

715
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,320
Speaker 3: I Like, there is not one conversation where anyone ever said,

716
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 3: do you know he's not because I didn't know.

717
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 2: No one knew who my dad was.

718
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 3: We did have people, I do remember people going is

719
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 3: it possible?

720
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 2: And I'm like no, And I think because.

721
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 3: She was so convincing, because she was a court reporter

722
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 3: and so her dates, I mean, she kept meticulous records

723
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 3: and her story never ever changed. We would go to

724
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 3: mental institutions and we would sit down with the doctors

725
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 3: and I will never forget.

726
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 2: We were outside and all of us.

727
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 3: She was sitting there with us, and the doctor psychiatrist

728
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 3: leaned over and they she said, is it possible that

729
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 3: this is true? The psychiatrist say, that's like and we

730
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,800
Speaker 3: were like, okay, how do we eap breath?

731
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 2: No, it's not true.

732
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 3: No, this is And she was like are you sure,

733
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,479
Speaker 3: because she's like everything is like matching up.

734
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:56,720
Speaker 2: So that was hard.

735
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 3: It was hard for people because and then she was

736
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,439
Speaker 3: so pretty like and you like, she didn't have the

737
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 3: picture of what we picture as mental illness.

738
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 1: Or a stalker. I guess if you frame it that way.

739
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, So, like we would visit the hospitals and

740
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 3: I would always say, it had been so much easier

741
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 3: if and this sounds awful, but for us and her children.

742
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 2: It would have been.

743
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 3: Easier if she was like the drooling, the like all

744
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 3: of these kind of things.

745
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 2: Well, no, you walk in there, she's helping the nurses station.

746
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 3: Her hair is fabulous, and she's looking at me going,

747
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 3: are you eating too much?

748
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 2: You need to cut down? Are you dieting?

749
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 3: How are you taking care of Like she her skin

750
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 3: was meticulous, and so she didn't have that like outward

751
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 3: thing that would say, you know, she's mentally ill and

752
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:48,280
Speaker 3: she's articulate and she's and so it was difficult for people, which.

753
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 2: Is why they allowed her so many court cases.

754
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: She was even convincing some people there might be something

755
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 1: to this. So you don't remember how old you were

756
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: just kind of pieced it together and was like, oh,

757
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: he's not my dad? Who is my dad? Like? How

758
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 1: did that affect your thinking? Because you met him at nineteen?

759
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: You said, so, like you're going through high school, junior

760
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,240
Speaker 1: high when do you roughly think you kind of figured

761
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:16,919
Speaker 1: this out? And then what did that make you think

762
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:18,919
Speaker 1: about in terms of your biological dad?

763
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,439
Speaker 3: I think I figured it out in the foster care,

764
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 3: knowing that he was someone so famous and knowing and

765
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 3: I knew who the twins fathers was I met him

766
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,800
Speaker 3: in Chicago, so I knew that wasn't their father.

767
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,840
Speaker 2: So they always knew that that wasn't their father, and.

768
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 1: So okay, so sorry. By the way, in the song,

769
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,479
Speaker 1: it's referring to one of the twins, Is that right?

770
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 1: So it says Billy Jean is not my lover. She's

771
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 1: just a girl who claims that I'm the one, but

772
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:57,399
Speaker 1: the kid is not my son. She says, I'm the one,

773
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: but the kid is not my son. If this really

774
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 1: is Billy Jean referring to your mom, this would be

775
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 1: your younger brother. And you knew who the biological father was,

776
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 1: so just kind of piecing these things together is like,

777
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 1: wait a minute, this doesn't add up.

778
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:16,919
Speaker 3: All right, yes and so and so. But here's what's

779
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 3: weird about that song is sometimes she would refer to

780
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,280
Speaker 3: and she would tell us different. Sometimes it was the twins' dad,

781
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,760
Speaker 3: sometimes it was my dad.

782
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,959
Speaker 2: And so for me, the kid is not my son.

783
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 2: And she used to.

784
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 3: Say, because you would ask her like it says, Billy

785
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 3: Jane is not my lover, and she would say, just

786
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 3: like he says, it's his son, she's talking about your daughter,

787
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 3: just like he says, it's not my lover, it's because

788
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 3: I am his lover. She was like, that's the genius

789
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 3: behind his play on words.

790
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 1: So she's like crafty and smart and had a way

791
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 1: of being persuasive.

792
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 2: She'd kind of thought through it all.

793
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 3: But at other times I think she gave different interviews

794
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 3: and it was one twin and not the other twin.

795
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 2: It was it was all kinds of.

796
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 1: So that that piece of the story maybe changed a

797
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 1: little bit, but the dates and other things added up.

798
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: When you talked about your aunt, it's the first time

799
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 1: you started talking about the Lord. It's the first thing

800
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 1: he said when the flood happened. She's just repeating Romans eight.

801
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:19,879
Speaker 1: Was she wanted the key people in terms of your

802
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: faith journey? And how did she become a Christian? Like

803
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of like your mom. Did she

804
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: have any faith backgrounds? So maybe start with kind of

805
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 1: like her journey and then how that affected you.

806
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 3: So my grandfather was a minister in New York, Okay,

807
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 3: and had.

808
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 2: A storefront church.

809
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 3: Yes, amazing, and so they'd been raised in the church

810
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 3: and you know, taught God's word. But my grandmother struggled

811
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 3: with mental illness which affected their marriage, and so they

812
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 3: grew up knowing, you know, the truth about who the

813
00:42:56,160 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 3: Lord was and at a step grandmother, you know, that

814
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 3: brought them in. So they'd grown up in a solid

815
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 3: Christian home and kind of went their different ways and

816
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 3: had their different experiences kind of struggling with the Lord.

817
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 3: My mom, I'd say, mom and mom. Sounds like I

818
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 3: have two moms. But my biological mom went more the

819
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 3: Islam route and you know, struggled with mental illness. My

820
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 3: adoptive mom did not have that same you know struggle,

821
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 3: but went to more you know, the beauty industry and

822
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 3: and all of that, and that was kind of her

823
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 3: journey of getting back to the Lord. And so she

824
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 3: was a big catalyst, the one of the first ones

825
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 3: that really talked to me about who Jesus was.

826
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 2: Even as I was in and out of foster care.

827
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 3: I'd be in and out of foster care from Chicago

828
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 3: to New York to Los Angeles, and whenever I was

829
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 3: in a stint in Los Angeles, there was a time

830
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 3: where she brought me in. And for as long as

831
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 3: she had me, she was determined minister the gospel, Minister

832
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 3: the gospel, and I was in she put me in

833
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 3: a little Christian school in South Central called Marie Fagan.

834
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 2: And it was in that school that she was just hoping.

835
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 3: And I was in third grade, you know, remember it, wow,

836
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 3: talking to me about Jesus.

837
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 1: Excuse me, take your time.

838
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 3: So yeah, it was during that time, you know, hearing

839
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 3: about Jesus. And and I was very bold, which is

840
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 3: probably the same.

841
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 1: Doesn't surprise me, but keep going, but bold.

842
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 3: About who I was and about my faith in Islam

843
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 3: at the Christian school. And I had no problem because

844
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 3: I was a Meana Mohammed, and I let all the

845
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 3: other Christians know because especially that's what you're taught in Islam.

846
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 3: And so there was and I was even taught at

847
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,720
Speaker 3: third grade how to question the truth that Christians believe.

848
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:55,439
Speaker 1: Third grade and.

849
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:57,800
Speaker 3: So like she would talk to me on the rides

850
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 3: to school about Christianity and the first question that stumped her,

851
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 3: maybe because she didn't know how to explain it to

852
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:07,760
Speaker 3: a third grader, was how can.

853
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:09,399
Speaker 2: A man be God?

854
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 3: And she said to herself, I have to get the

855
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 3: truth into her. I'm just gonna sing praising worship songs.

856
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,720
Speaker 3: So that's what she did. We sang praise and worship songs.

857
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 3: And it was at that school where one day was

858
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 3: like a cloudy day and they said, Amina, Jesus is

859
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 3: coming back and you're going to get left.

860
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,800
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, okay, truth.

861
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 3: And I went home and I said, I don't want

862
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 3: to get left behind.

863
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 2: If Jesus comes back, I'm I going to be left.

864
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 3: And she said, if you don't believe that he's your savior,

865
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 3: you will get left.

866
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 2: And we prayed and I accept the Lord. But that

867
00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 2: didn't end.

868
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 1: Okay, So this is third grade. This is with your

869
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 1: biological mom.

870
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 2: No, this is with my aunt.

871
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: Okay, with your aunt now just started. Yes, okay, got it. Wait,

872
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 1: so hold on, wait a minute. You moved in with

873
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 1: her and you were twelve, but this was just you

874
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:16,720
Speaker 1: visited her at times, yes.

875
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 2: Like in and out of foster care.

876
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 3: Sometimes mom would come, you know, they would fight the system.

877
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 2: She would have me back for a.

878
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 3: Minute and then she would leave me and then they

879
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 3: socials workers would find out, and then I'd have to

880
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 3: go back to So it was it was all of

881
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 3: this four So you were in.

882
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 1: Third grade and prayed the prayer and did it stick

883
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: like and you believed it, and that was really the

884
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: beginning of your journey.

885
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:43,280
Speaker 3: I do, like I remember the conviction and I remember

886
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 3: that like that, like that settling with the internal witness

887
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 3: of the Holy Spirit, like I it was such a

888
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,320
Speaker 3: piece that I had that I never had that peace

889
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:55,280
Speaker 3: with Islam and I never had that peace with Mohammed,

890
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 3: and so it was not it was not a faith

891
00:46:58,080 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 3: that I ever questioned after that.

892
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 1: So even I mean, you're in third grade, even that,

893
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,839
Speaker 1: when your mom had left and you're going through foster care,

894
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: going through this abuse, you just still had this sense of,

895
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 1: like Jesus with me, things are going to work out,

896
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 1: He's coming back. Like that was an underlying theme and

897
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: threat of your life. Is that act?

898
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:18,839
Speaker 2: I think.

899
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,280
Speaker 3: I don't know if I had Jesus, I knew Jesus

900
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 3: was with me, I don't know if I always felt

901
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 3: like it was.

902
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 1: Going to work out Okay.

903
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 3: When I was in one of the homes with my cousins,

904
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 3: there was a nun that was there and this was

905
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:35,840
Speaker 3: one of the foster home. It was like a family

906
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 3: foster home, and I remember praying, praying and asking her

907
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:45,359
Speaker 3: and crying, sorry, praying, crying and asking like why why

908
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 3: is this happening to me? Why don't I have my

909
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 3: brother and sister. Why don't I have a mom and

910
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 3: a dad?

911
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 2: Why?

912
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:51,319
Speaker 1: Why?

913
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 2: Why?

914
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 3: And she told me, she was like, God loves you.

915
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 3: She was like, I don't know why. All I know

916
00:47:58,120 --> 00:47:59,720
Speaker 3: is that God loves you and he has a plan.

917
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 3: And that was kind of the like I could almost

918
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 3: get tearing now. That was that was like okay, like

919
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 3: God has a plan. But it's not like it got

920
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 3: better after that, because it was after that that that

921
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:15,720
Speaker 3: went to even the worst foster home.

922
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:18,840
Speaker 2: So that that was hard.

923
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 3: It was Oh, it was hard years trying to figure

924
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 3: out kind of not just who you are, but God,

925
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 3: like what like where am I?

926
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: Like?

927
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:33,239
Speaker 2: Can I just have a little bit of normalcy? And

928
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 2: it took a long time.

929
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:39,399
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, I can only imagine. Did you say

930
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 1: you start at Biola ninety five?

931
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 3: Okay, graduated in nineteen ninety four, so ninety four, yikes.

932
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 1: I graduated. Well, I graduated high school in ninety four

933
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 1: as well, but started fall ninety four. So how, like, Helen,

934
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:54,320
Speaker 1: why did you come to Viola?

935
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,840
Speaker 2: So mom, my aunt was a professor at Biola.

936
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 1: At Biola, Oh, oh my goodness, I did not know that.

937
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 2: He yes, it's all in Christian education.

938
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:05,320
Speaker 1: Wow.

939
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 3: And so she gave me a choice to go to

940
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 3: either a Christian high school or Christian college, and I

941
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 3: chose Christian college choice. And so when she started working

942
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 3: at Biola, I don't even I don't even think. I

943
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:22,279
Speaker 3: didn't apply it to any other college. It was like,

944
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 3: you got to get in here. And so yeah, that

945
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 3: was how the Lord amazing.

946
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 1: Okay, So that's that's incredible. And it was that same

947
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 1: year that you met your husband. We were talking before.

948
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 1: Teammate of mine in the audience shout out, matt uh okay,

949
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: so fill in in ninety five is the same year

950
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 1: you start and you meet your dad.

951
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:49,840
Speaker 3: So it was about I think that was the So

952
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:52,800
Speaker 3: it was at ninety school at ninety four to ninety five.

953
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 3: I believe it was in nineteen ninety five when we

954
00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:59,720
Speaker 3: I don't remember if it was the summer of ninety five,

955
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 3: but I was.

956
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,280
Speaker 2: I was on campus to look at some of my journals.

957
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 3: But I was on campus and he contacted someone in

958
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 3: our family because our you know, the powerless name in

959
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 3: New York. It was not like this was ever hard

960
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 3: to find. And he said, Hey, I heard she's really cute.

961
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:24,799
Speaker 3: I'd love to meet her. Are you serious, so I

962
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 3: had I had some feelings about that.

963
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 2: I was pretty angry.

964
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 3: I was, yes, and I told him I wrote him

965
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:37,719
Speaker 3: a very.

966
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 1: Long letter before you met him.

967
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 3: So I met him first because he really wanted to

968
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 3: meet and so my parents and I we went to

969
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 3: Arizona to meet him, and then found out I had

970
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 3: all of these brothers that are all Muslim and part

971
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 3: of the nation.

972
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: These are all half brothers.

973
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 2: Yes, mm hmm.

974
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:06,760
Speaker 3: And that was that was interesting, especially the one brother

975
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 3: who we looked so much alike, which that was very

976
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 3: It was odd.

977
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 2: To know that you have this connection so.

978
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 1: J we know these people exist, and all of a sudden

979
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 1: you meet somebody who's roughly your age that looks like you.

980
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 1: I can't even grasp how jarring that would be. I

981
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:23,800
Speaker 1: had no context.

982
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:25,320
Speaker 2: It was. It was interesting.

983
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 3: But then also meeting all of the other women that

984
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 3: were around that knew me, and so when they saw me,

985
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 3: they all remember all of these, you know, women a

986
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:39,359
Speaker 3: part of the nation.

987
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 2: They were like, Amina, we missed you. Amina. It was like,

988
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 2: my name's Lenese, Hi, nice to meet you. I'm Lenese.

989
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:47,240
Speaker 2: I'm not Amina.

990
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 1: My name's Lenesh Really cook, and when did you choose

991
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 1: to name Lenes to go buy that instead of Amina.

992
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 3: I think after I got adopted, well, because in foster

993
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:01,399
Speaker 3: care they kept going back and fourth because I.

994
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 2: Was born Lenege.

995
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 1: Oh you were OK.

996
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 2: And then she changed it.

997
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:08,359
Speaker 3: To a me and Mohammed and then we went back,

998
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 3: I mean we went back to Lenege and then you know,

999
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 3: the different last names, but Lenege was that was kind

1000
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 3: of the one that everyone That was the one that

1001
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 3: I associated, maybe myself with.

1002
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense. Keep keep going. You're meeting your

1003
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 1: dad in Arizona. When you said your parents, now, is

1004
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:28,800
Speaker 1: your aunt married?

1005
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 2: She did so after after she got me. She wanted

1006
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 2: to adopt me.

1007
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:35,759
Speaker 3: But she'd always prayed that I would have a father

1008
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 3: because my grandpa was so great, and so she was like,

1009
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 3: I don't want to raise this girl without a father,

1010
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 3: and in sent and sent my dad.

1011
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:48,399
Speaker 2: And you got married. I called him. They got married. Yes,

1012
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:50,280
Speaker 2: we are like peas in a pod.

1013
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 1: Yes, amazing.

1014
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 3: And so they are the ones that took me to

1015
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 3: Arizona and we met them. We met my dad and

1016
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 3: my birth father and and.

1017
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 2: The brothers, and it was very odd.

1018
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 3: He was a little heavier set, so I was like, oh,

1019
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 3: that's where the fat jeans come from so okay.

1020
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 2: So yeah, so that that was that was that was odd.

1021
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:22,800
Speaker 3: But it was when I got back that like the

1022
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 3: anger set in after I saw him and the all

1023
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 3: we want you to be a part of the fa

1024
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 3: all of this now, and I just I was like,

1025
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:37,879
Speaker 3: where have you been? Like you have no idea the

1026
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 3: life that I lived, and you've been here the whole

1027
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:45,839
Speaker 3: time and you left Mom and you left me, and

1028
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 3: now you want a part of my life. And I

1029
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 3: was dating Garrison at the time and we were talking,

1030
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:57,240
Speaker 3: you know, marriage eventually, and now you're saying ludicrous things

1031
00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:59,240
Speaker 3: like you want to walk me down the aisle?

1032
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 1: Are you?

1033
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:05,880
Speaker 3: And that is not a privilege that you've earned. And sorry,

1034
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 3: but donating sperm does not give you the rightis not

1035
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 3: my father? You know, my father has been there, He's

1036
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:16,920
Speaker 3: loved me, he's cared for me, he's spoken life into me.

1037
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 3: You know, that's my dad, and that is the only

1038
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:22,440
Speaker 3: dad that will ever be a part of that wedding

1039
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 3: day and that ceremony. But then I did and that

1040
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:29,319
Speaker 3: was really the hard part for my parents was I

1041
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:32,279
Speaker 3: describe things that they never knew that I experienced in

1042
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 3: foster care. But I wanted him to know. So that

1043
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:40,759
Speaker 3: was really the first time they heard some of the

1044
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 3: things and about some of the hard abuse that happened.

1045
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:48,600
Speaker 3: So that was a little hard for them, and then

1046
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:50,719
Speaker 3: we kind of didn't talk about it again after that.

1047
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,280
Speaker 1: Did you ever have a thought of becoming a Muslim?

1048
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 1: Or there was never even any attraction to that, even

1049
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:00,160
Speaker 1: though you have all these family members that were was

1050
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:02,239
Speaker 1: that ever even like maybe or.

1051
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 3: Just no, maybe not an attraction. I think I wanted

1052
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 3: I wanted to know what is it that you believe?

1053
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:13,400
Speaker 3: And why do you believe this? Because if this is

1054
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 3: who Jesus is.

1055
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 2: And who is Jesus to you?

1056
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:19,200
Speaker 3: And why do you believe that Mohammed is his prophet

1057
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,760
Speaker 3: and that Jesus is just a prophet and that Jesus

1058
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 3: is not God? And then how does that reconcile us

1059
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:27,840
Speaker 3: between God and man? And how do you and so

1060
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 3: there were like these questions.

1061
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 1: You had those conversations with your dad and your family.

1062
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 3: I asked them, but they didn't It wasn't really they

1063
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 3: didn't really have these answers, and that they that that

1064
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:42,400
Speaker 3: wasn't something they wanted to talk about.

1065
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:45,479
Speaker 2: They just wanted to They wanted me to come back.

1066
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 3: They wanted me to come back to the nation, and

1067
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 3: I was like, they're They're absolutely not, Like that was

1068
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 3: not even there wasn't even a thought that that because

1069
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 3: I knew it wasn't true, and probably has been like

1070
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:10,440
Speaker 3: this desire to know truth and to understand what I

1071
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:13,680
Speaker 3: believe and why I believe it has always been a

1072
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:17,799
Speaker 3: part of me. And I think it really stems, you know,

1073
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:21,799
Speaker 3: from mom and struggling with who Billy is and is

1074
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 3: Billy is not the truth about who you are? But

1075
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:29,400
Speaker 3: yet this is the lie that has carried your whole life.

1076
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 3: And when I like, especially as I was starting to

1077
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 3: write this, I want to live truthfully because the lies

1078
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 3: that you carry with you can affect your destiny and eternity.

1079
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:43,279
Speaker 3: And yes, she struggled with mental illness, Yes we have

1080
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 3: all of these other things, but this was the lie

1081
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 3: that impacted my life.

1082
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:50,320
Speaker 2: For so long and influenced so many things.

1083
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:53,879
Speaker 3: And I want to know the truth, and I want

1084
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:57,200
Speaker 3: to understand the truth, and I want to communicate the

1085
00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:02,719
Speaker 3: truth always. And so I think that was kind of like,

1086
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 3: as I've come full circle with this and trying to

1087
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:11,360
Speaker 3: understand who she is, why I've waited, you know, for

1088
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 3: years to share it, and Lord, what is the story

1089
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 3: that you want to tell behind this?

1090
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 2: Because it can all be sensational.

1091
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 3: You can tell all of this stuff and all of

1092
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 3: these create but it means nothing if it's not connected

1093
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:27,360
Speaker 3: to eternity, because it's just a story. Like everyone has stories.

1094
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 3: I've meant, kids and foster care, everyone's got something.

1095
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:34,240
Speaker 1: Your story is pretty interesting, lens. I'm just gonna say,

1096
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 1: but keep going.

1097
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:39,160
Speaker 3: But I never but that was the thing. I didn't

1098
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 3: want it to be just a story if it's not connected.

1099
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:44,920
Speaker 3: And it took a while. I think it took going,

1100
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 3: you know, getting my master's understanding, you know, philosophy and

1101
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 3: in worldview and understanding these deeper concepts helped me fill

1102
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 3: holes into my story to where I was like, this

1103
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 3: is how you want me to communicate this because this

1104
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 3: is a This is about winning people and tearing down

1105
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 3: arguments and this if God used this to let's tear

1106
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 3: down arguments for the kingdom, like let's go to battle

1107
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:16,000
Speaker 3: and let like we can.

1108
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:19,240
Speaker 2: And if this story does it praise the Lord like that,

1109
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 2: that's what it's for.

1110
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:24,560
Speaker 1: So your husband was one of the best basketball players

1111
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 1: I ever played with. But I'm gonna go on the

1112
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:29,720
Speaker 1: record and say you're definitely tougher than he is. There's

1113
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 1: no doubt about that. Let me circle back then, I

1114
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 1: want to come back to what you're doing right now?

1115
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:38,080
Speaker 1: Are there? So in the song it says Billy Jean

1116
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 1: is not my lover, She's just a girl. If I

1117
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 1: listen to this, I'm like, wait a minute, you're talking

1118
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 1: about my mom. She's not just a girl Like that

1119
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:48,800
Speaker 1: would make me upset. If I flip around and I

1120
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 1: go from where Michael was and the accusations and apparently

1121
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:56,440
Speaker 1: it affected his mental health and the concern, I could

1122
00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 1: understand why he's wanting to do everything to distance from

1123
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 1: this near for his life and his health and his

1124
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 1: music and everything. Do you have any animosity towards the

1125
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:10,840
Speaker 1: Jackson family or towards him, or what's your perspective of

1126
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 1: them now that you're on the other side of this,

1127
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 1: sharing that your story.

1128
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:16,880
Speaker 2: Not an inkling.

1129
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 3: They didn't they didn't have anything, They didn't contribute to

1130
00:59:22,240 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 3: her illness. They weren't the reason for her delusion, and

1131
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:31,800
Speaker 3: they're just kind of the recipients of, you know, the

1132
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 3: consequences of what she chose.

1133
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 2: And so I don't feel I don't.

1134
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,960
Speaker 3: I honestly, I don't feel anything kind of towards them.

1135
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 3: They're to mean, they're just people that something happened to them.

1136
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:51,000
Speaker 3: And you know, he used that and you know, helped

1137
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:53,120
Speaker 3: him in his career, like we all use things and

1138
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 3: we all have experiences that helped determine our everyday life

1139
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 3: or that influence our behavior or you know. And so

1140
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:04,040
Speaker 3: there's no anger on my end, and no like they

1141
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 3: don't owe us anything there. It's just that's what happened

1142
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:11,040
Speaker 3: to him. And honestly, a part of me makes me sad,

1143
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:14,040
Speaker 3: you know. It's and I think that's the thing with Billy,

1144
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:17,440
Speaker 3: Like it's like for them, it's like this woman that

1145
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 3: had all that, But for me, it's like that, I'm

1146
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:24,280
Speaker 3: I'm sorry that that that that's who she was to them,

1147
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 3: Like that's that to be terrifying, you know. And then

1148
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:31,000
Speaker 3: I remember years I was terrified of her. We were

1149
01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:35,240
Speaker 3: scared of her, you know, coming in and and and

1150
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 3: I know her, and so for them not to know her,

1151
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 3: you know, I'm sad that that's that that has been

1152
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:44,040
Speaker 3: their reality and his kid's reality, because I know it

1153
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:47,920
Speaker 3: was for years even after he died, that she was

1154
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 3: someone that was still there, that they were still concerned about.

1155
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:56,880
Speaker 1: And so that's that that's super gracious and that that

1156
01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 1: makes sense. I think the first time we were tom

1157
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:01,880
Speaker 1: at this, your mom was so let me take a

1158
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:04,080
Speaker 1: step back, Michael Jackson, I think died in two thousand

1159
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:08,880
Speaker 1: and nine, seventeen plus years ago. Your mom died two

1160
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:12,520
Speaker 1: years ago, so around twenty twenty four, is that right?

1161
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:15,440
Speaker 1: I think when we first talked, she was still alive.

1162
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 1: I think when you first shared the story with me,

1163
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:21,600
Speaker 1: maybe if I remember remember correctly, were you able to

1164
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:24,720
Speaker 1: have some final moments with her? What was that like

1165
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 1: kind of at the end when she passed. Were you

1166
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:29,920
Speaker 1: still in a relationship with her at things come full circle?

1167
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 1: Or was it just kind of a painful end.

1168
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 3: It was a pretty painful end because she died.

1169
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 1: In a home and lean up in here we want

1170
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:41,200
Speaker 1: to get Oh.

1171
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:44,520
Speaker 3: Yes, it was a pretty painful end because she died

1172
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:48,520
Speaker 3: in a home, and you know, she wanted us to

1173
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:52,160
Speaker 3: take her out. She didn't want to be there, but

1174
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 3: she was difficult and it was hard, you know, and

1175
01:01:56,200 --> 01:02:02,840
Speaker 3: she still blamed us and said that Michael was you know,

1176
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:08,040
Speaker 3: punishing us up, punishing us, you know, even up to

1177
01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:11,440
Speaker 3: maybe a month or so before she died, and so

1178
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:14,760
Speaker 3: it was to me it was a sad end. You know,

1179
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:18,560
Speaker 3: my my aunt may say something different, but death is

1180
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:22,480
Speaker 3: hard and when someone dies, you know, kind of the

1181
01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 3: way that she did, and like we had to struggle

1182
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:28,840
Speaker 3: with all of those serious end of life questions that

1183
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:32,560
Speaker 3: you have to ask. It was rough and I was

1184
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 3: not I wasn't prepared. I'd never experienced that type of grief,

1185
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:43,440
Speaker 3: and so I really wasn't prepared about how hard that

1186
01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 3: would hit us and hit my sister and I.

1187
01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:51,480
Speaker 2: So that that was a that was it.

1188
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:54,320
Speaker 3: That was it was. It was very difficult. It was

1189
01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:57,040
Speaker 3: difficult for all of us. It was really difficult for

1190
01:02:57,120 --> 01:03:02,880
Speaker 3: my brother who'd been in prison over thirty years and

1191
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:11,200
Speaker 3: was just released maybe three weeks before she passed and

1192
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:15,040
Speaker 3: had not seen her, but still couldn't get to her.

1193
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:18,360
Speaker 1: Oh, so he never got to have kind of a

1194
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:22,560
Speaker 1: goodbye he'ld be no.

1195
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:26,160
Speaker 3: That was and so and so we because that was

1196
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 3: always all of our dream was to one day be

1197
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 3: in the room, like all four of us with her,

1198
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 3: and so we kind of never had that that closure.

1199
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 2: That so it was hard. But she knew she that

1200
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:44,120
Speaker 2: we loved her.

1201
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:45,920
Speaker 1: You did love her mom, didn't you?

1202
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 2: And my kids got to meet her.

1203
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:51,720
Speaker 1: I did, so she was not a part of their

1204
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:54,440
Speaker 1: life growing up, and that was probably an intentional decision.

1205
01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:56,360
Speaker 1: They met her, when how did that go?

1206
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:58,960
Speaker 3: They met her about the last year of her life.

1207
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:04,560
Speaker 3: We brought them down two times and no, I'm sorry, no,

1208
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:08,560
Speaker 3: they they did. She did meet them younger. I maybe

1209
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:12,919
Speaker 3: one time at a birthday party at Chuck E Cheese

1210
01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:15,840
Speaker 3: when my sister was living, Like there was that one time,

1211
01:04:16,080 --> 01:04:18,360
Speaker 3: but they don't really remember that. So I would say

1212
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:20,720
Speaker 3: like the last year, you know, we brought them in

1213
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:25,440
Speaker 3: and they got to meet her the two times, so

1214
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:30,040
Speaker 3: that was It's it's like a colliding of worlds because

1215
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:34,480
Speaker 3: you keep everything so separate and kind of keep this

1216
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:36,720
Speaker 3: in a box and like don't let this box bill over.

1217
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:39,360
Speaker 3: And that's like I'll call my sister. I'm like, my

1218
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:45,440
Speaker 3: box is leaking. Yes, She's like I know. I'm like,

1219
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:47,400
Speaker 3: we gotta I got to put this in a box.

1220
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:49,880
Speaker 3: Like I'm not ready to open that box. But that's

1221
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:53,240
Speaker 3: like her death helped, Like it was like the Lord

1222
01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 3: was like all of these like all of these are done,

1223
01:04:57,240 --> 01:05:03,919
Speaker 3: like this is all one story in one one kind

1224
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:07,000
Speaker 3: of connection to where he was. He's helped me put

1225
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:09,840
Speaker 3: all of this together to say, Okay, you don't have

1226
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:10,920
Speaker 3: to keep this separate.

1227
01:05:11,120 --> 01:05:13,000
Speaker 2: You don't have to be afraid to tell this.

1228
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:16,360
Speaker 3: You don't have to be worried about what other people

1229
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:18,560
Speaker 3: will say, how they will judge you, what they'll think

1230
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:21,840
Speaker 3: about you. I'm the one that has ordained all of

1231
01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 3: your steps, so trust me with it all. And so

1232
01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:30,000
Speaker 3: that's been like, all right, Lord, I'm trusting you. And

1233
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:34,000
Speaker 3: it's been the journey in itself to even get even

1234
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:36,400
Speaker 3: getting sitting here with you has been the Lord, open

1235
01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:42,080
Speaker 3: door after door, and and you know, Matt has been

1236
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:47,280
Speaker 3: the biggest advocate and supporter of like trust the Lord.

1237
01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:51,760
Speaker 2: That's it. That's your Matt, my husband. Yes, like trust

1238
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:52,120
Speaker 2: the Lord.

1239
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:55,600
Speaker 3: And even now once we've told my kids, they're like,

1240
01:05:55,680 --> 01:05:56,840
Speaker 3: oh mom, yeah, do it.

1241
01:05:56,960 --> 01:05:58,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, who cares? I'm like, well what if they say

1242
01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:00,560
Speaker 2: They're like, we don't care what people say.

1243
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:06,360
Speaker 3: I'm like good wyoh and so.

1244
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:08,320
Speaker 1: So do you have just a few more questions? That's okay?

1245
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:11,880
Speaker 1: When when you hear people talking about mental health, like,

1246
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:14,520
Speaker 1: what's the message you want people to take from this?

1247
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:18,400
Speaker 1: Because I would imagine the judgment of your mom from

1248
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:21,480
Speaker 1: the outside, you want to say, wait, there's a whole

1249
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:23,720
Speaker 1: other story here, and maybe the way we talk about

1250
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:27,040
Speaker 1: people and the dynamic, like what's what is your message

1251
01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:29,520
Speaker 1: when issues of like mental health come up, given that

1252
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:30,880
Speaker 1: it's been so personal to you.

1253
01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:36,280
Speaker 3: I think the one big thing is we sometimes forget

1254
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:43,400
Speaker 3: that people really struggle and how serious mental health takes

1255
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:47,320
Speaker 3: a toll on the entire family. Usually we isolate that

1256
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:51,240
Speaker 3: person is dealing with a mental health struggle. No, it's

1257
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:56,000
Speaker 3: that family is dealing with the mental health whatever varying

1258
01:06:56,120 --> 01:07:00,040
Speaker 3: degree it happens. The entire family is affected by that

1259
01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:05,320
Speaker 3: person's struggle and that person's reality and and like it's

1260
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:08,080
Speaker 3: it was hard, especially when like funding was taken away,

1261
01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:11,680
Speaker 3: you know from California, and so many hospitals were closed

1262
01:07:11,720 --> 01:07:15,240
Speaker 3: down where it was like she didn't have we didn't

1263
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:18,040
Speaker 3: have any place for her to go, and so she.

1264
01:07:18,280 --> 01:07:19,439
Speaker 2: Was on the streets more.

1265
01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:23,880
Speaker 3: And they did find you know, thank goodness, like we

1266
01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:26,400
Speaker 3: knew people that were able to work and get her

1267
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:31,080
Speaker 3: into housing and things like that. But mental illness is

1268
01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:36,680
Speaker 3: it's a hard thing to reconcile that I think, especially

1269
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:39,720
Speaker 3: with people that struggle with like where is God and

1270
01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:42,400
Speaker 3: mental health issues and.

1271
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:44,600
Speaker 2: Why does God allow these people to struggle?

1272
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:47,560
Speaker 3: And it's really the ultimate problem of evil, you know,

1273
01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:50,600
Speaker 3: And it's a reminder that yes, we live in a

1274
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:53,240
Speaker 3: fallen world, but yet God is still sovereign in the

1275
01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:56,320
Speaker 3: midst of all of this, you know, fallenness. And so

1276
01:07:56,680 --> 01:07:59,160
Speaker 3: it's been hard and you know, i'd say, my brother

1277
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:02,200
Speaker 3: still struggles with mental health issues, you know, to this day,

1278
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:07,040
Speaker 3: and trying to help him realize that it's a struggle

1279
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:09,880
Speaker 3: and get the proper help you know that he needs.

1280
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:15,840
Speaker 2: So that's probably the biggest thing with mental health. But also.

1281
01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:21,719
Speaker 3: The biggest thing also is even if you have these struggles,

1282
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:24,600
Speaker 3: or even if you have, you know, experience abuse, and

1283
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:29,559
Speaker 3: you experienced all of this tragedies in your life, that's

1284
01:08:29,600 --> 01:08:31,360
Speaker 3: not an excuse to walk away from God.

1285
01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:32,120
Speaker 1: Amen.

1286
01:08:32,760 --> 01:08:38,240
Speaker 3: And I don't ever want my experiences or my pain

1287
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:42,000
Speaker 3: or the existence of evil does not mean God doesn't exist.

1288
01:08:42,479 --> 01:08:44,960
Speaker 3: And so we still have a responsibility about the way

1289
01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:48,360
Speaker 3: that we live or respond to the Gospel in spite

1290
01:08:48,400 --> 01:08:52,240
Speaker 3: of all of this. I was just telling someone a

1291
01:08:52,280 --> 01:08:54,240
Speaker 3: few years ago, I was like, I hate the same

1292
01:08:54,320 --> 01:08:59,519
Speaker 3: that children are resilient. Children are not resilient children carry

1293
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:02,320
Speaker 3: all of these things with them and the experiences from

1294
01:09:02,320 --> 01:09:05,360
Speaker 3: the past and their pain. So the question is not

1295
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:09,559
Speaker 3: about resiliency. The question is about healing and allowing God

1296
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:13,480
Speaker 3: to heal you and allowing yourself to understand the eternal's perspective.

1297
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:16,800
Speaker 3: That's the way that we move forward, not acting like

1298
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:19,599
Speaker 3: it doesn't exist, or you know, just saying oh, they'll

1299
01:09:19,640 --> 01:09:23,640
Speaker 3: bounce back from it. Is that's not reality. And I

1300
01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:25,400
Speaker 3: don't know why adults say that, because they know.

1301
01:09:25,400 --> 01:09:27,920
Speaker 1: That's not why. I think we say it to justify

1302
01:09:27,960 --> 01:09:29,840
Speaker 1: what we want to do. That's what a lot of

1303
01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:33,240
Speaker 1: the divorce revolution was pushed through, is Oh, it's best

1304
01:09:33,320 --> 01:09:36,280
Speaker 1: for kids, they're resilient, they'll be fine. Yes, because that's

1305
01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:40,040
Speaker 1: what adults want. It's an excuse, not a reality. I

1306
01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:44,400
Speaker 1: think ninety nine percent of the time, tell us what

1307
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:46,920
Speaker 1: you're doing. Now. So did you graduate, oh three from

1308
01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:50,880
Speaker 1: the NAFIL program or what year did you finish? Oh gosh, sorry,

1309
01:09:50,880 --> 01:09:55,240
Speaker 1: I'm not. Roughly early two thousands. Well, yeah, because I

1310
01:09:55,240 --> 01:09:57,640
Speaker 1: was there two thousand to two thousand and three, and

1311
01:09:57,680 --> 01:10:00,200
Speaker 1: I remember we overlapped and that is that was life

1312
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:03,639
Speaker 1: changing for me. My wife can attest to that. I've

1313
01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:05,519
Speaker 1: gone on and well, people here know what I've done.

1314
01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:08,559
Speaker 1: But tell us what was your undergrad degree in at Payola?

1315
01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:10,240
Speaker 2: Okay? Theater?

1316
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:13,360
Speaker 1: Oh okay, I didn't miss that memo.

1317
01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:17,719
Speaker 3: Yes, I did theater and communications and then the Bible

1318
01:10:17,840 --> 01:10:20,799
Speaker 3: minor and so that was the plan still going.

1319
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:22,400
Speaker 1: Into the industry, and.

1320
01:10:22,439 --> 01:10:27,080
Speaker 3: So I had I was acting and auditioning, and so

1321
01:10:27,160 --> 01:10:29,960
Speaker 3: that's what that's what I was going to do when

1322
01:10:29,960 --> 01:10:35,639
Speaker 3: I graduated. And I you know, being a struggling actress,

1323
01:10:35,720 --> 01:10:38,000
Speaker 3: you know, it was very you know, difficult, and that

1324
01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:39,720
Speaker 3: I mean, I could go on and on because there's

1325
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:41,640
Speaker 3: a whole nother path about.

1326
01:10:41,360 --> 01:10:42,240
Speaker 2: How God led me.

1327
01:10:42,520 --> 01:10:43,320
Speaker 1: We'll do part two.

1328
01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:48,639
Speaker 3: Yes to the philosophy program. But that was literally life

1329
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:52,200
Speaker 3: changing for me. It just I was like, yep, God

1330
01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:55,040
Speaker 3: it got it because that was actually my second seminary

1331
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:56,040
Speaker 3: because I.

1332
01:10:56,080 --> 01:10:58,080
Speaker 1: Like, I mean, the experience the m a Field program

1333
01:10:58,120 --> 01:10:59,880
Speaker 1: was life changing life It was for me too, and

1334
01:10:59,920 --> 01:11:03,720
Speaker 1: I mean in terms of my confidence, my vision, my focus.

1335
01:11:04,200 --> 01:11:06,880
Speaker 1: I was like, wow, this is defensible. I understand why

1336
01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:10,280
Speaker 1: sounds like that was similar to you. So you've done

1337
01:11:10,960 --> 01:11:12,920
Speaker 1: what sense or tell us more what you do. Now

1338
01:11:12,960 --> 01:11:15,719
Speaker 1: there's a journey going overseas and ye mass playing basketball.

1339
01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:17,960
Speaker 1: We don't have to get into any of that stuff.

1340
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:19,519
Speaker 1: But tell us what you're doing now.

1341
01:11:20,240 --> 01:11:23,599
Speaker 3: So now I'm a chaplain at our school, a private

1342
01:11:23,680 --> 01:11:27,600
Speaker 3: Christian school, and I teach a worldview class which is

1343
01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:30,960
Speaker 3: designed to to criculum that I wrote and using part

1344
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:36,000
Speaker 3: of Frank Past Stories curriculum with Gina, and they've allowed

1345
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:40,120
Speaker 3: me to use that and we've gotten credited through Colorado Christians.

1346
01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:40,599
Speaker 1: So great.

1347
01:11:41,439 --> 01:11:43,840
Speaker 3: So it's wonderful because they can take that class and

1348
01:11:44,360 --> 01:11:46,680
Speaker 3: the goal is to help them defend the existence of

1349
01:11:46,720 --> 01:11:50,800
Speaker 3: God without quoting a scripture. And so that's what I'm

1350
01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:53,120
Speaker 3: so I tell them, all right, you've got all my

1351
01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:56,240
Speaker 3: years of seminary, I've got one year to give it

1352
01:11:56,280 --> 01:11:58,400
Speaker 3: to you. And they're like, I'm like, let's start logic.

1353
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:02,240
Speaker 3: So we go. I love it hardcore for a year

1354
01:12:03,040 --> 01:12:05,439
Speaker 3: and I do you know, speaking, I did the standard

1355
01:12:05,479 --> 01:12:09,320
Speaker 3: Reason and I'm part of the Desert Apologetics board in

1356
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:14,120
Speaker 3: the Desert, and you know, teaching at churches and chauffeuring

1357
01:12:14,320 --> 01:12:17,920
Speaker 3: my boys around the football, basketball, baseball, soccer.

1358
01:12:18,920 --> 01:12:21,160
Speaker 1: And probably something else we missed and that one that

1359
01:12:21,200 --> 01:12:24,160
Speaker 1: they're up to. Yes, okay, so you also taught a

1360
01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:28,360
Speaker 1: junior college class for a while, so public junior college

1361
01:12:28,360 --> 01:12:31,160
Speaker 1: worldview philosophy just engaging. So you've been kind of doing

1362
01:12:31,160 --> 01:12:35,400
Speaker 1: this apologetics philosophy thing for a while. If somebody's hearing this,

1363
01:12:35,439 --> 01:12:37,320
Speaker 1: and by the way, you've mentioned standard reason a couple times.

1364
01:12:37,400 --> 01:12:41,679
Speaker 1: That was their Reality student conferences. I think I kicked

1365
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:43,920
Speaker 1: it off Friday night and I think you closed it

1366
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:47,880
Speaker 1: Saturday night, Yes, for that season, maybe two three years ago. Now,

1367
01:12:48,360 --> 01:12:51,040
Speaker 1: if somebody's hearing this, going wow, this story is a

1368
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:55,080
Speaker 1: interesting be it's redemptive. And see you've got some like

1369
01:12:55,240 --> 01:12:58,080
Speaker 1: substance on the problem of evil and why God exists

1370
01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:00,240
Speaker 1: and wanted to invite you to come speak. Would you

1371
01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:01,200
Speaker 1: consider doing that?

1372
01:13:01,680 --> 01:13:02,080
Speaker 2: Sure?

1373
01:13:02,880 --> 01:13:04,840
Speaker 1: How can people get a hold of you? And now

1374
01:13:04,880 --> 01:13:07,559
Speaker 1: don't get not that you would like any personal information,

1375
01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:09,160
Speaker 1: but is there a website? Is there a best way

1376
01:13:09,200 --> 01:13:09,880
Speaker 1: to get a hold of you?

1377
01:13:10,160 --> 01:13:12,679
Speaker 3: So I do I have a website. It's linege Garrison

1378
01:13:12,760 --> 01:13:15,360
Speaker 3: dot org. And so they can fill out an interest

1379
01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:16,439
Speaker 3: form through there.

1380
01:13:16,800 --> 01:13:21,400
Speaker 1: Or lenege is l A N E J Garrison g

1381
01:13:21,479 --> 01:13:24,200
Speaker 1: A R R I s O n dot org. That's

1382
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:25,720
Speaker 1: your website, or.

1383
01:13:25,720 --> 01:13:29,160
Speaker 3: On social media and we could put the what's it

1384
01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:30,120
Speaker 3: called the hashtag.

1385
01:13:30,320 --> 01:13:32,479
Speaker 2: Is it the hashtag? See I'm really bad at this.

1386
01:13:32,840 --> 01:13:35,559
Speaker 3: The hand to hand you honey, Yes, you can put

1387
01:13:35,560 --> 01:13:37,599
Speaker 3: our handle and people. That's where a lot of people

1388
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:39,760
Speaker 3: contact me is through Instagram.

1389
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:43,360
Speaker 1: Through Instagram. Okay, is there any part of your story

1390
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:45,640
Speaker 1: that we missed? Is there anything that you just on

1391
01:13:45,680 --> 01:13:48,120
Speaker 1: your heart that you want to share to people who

1392
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:50,320
Speaker 1: are listening to this or some things up like I

1393
01:13:50,360 --> 01:13:54,320
Speaker 1: want to make sure we covered what was important to you.

1394
01:13:54,360 --> 01:13:57,200
Speaker 3: No, I don't think so, you know, there's more always

1395
01:13:57,240 --> 01:14:02,280
Speaker 3: because it's was a lot. But I think for me,

1396
01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:06,719
Speaker 3: it's just very cathartic to be able to just say

1397
01:14:06,760 --> 01:14:10,719
Speaker 3: it out loud, because I've never said it out loud

1398
01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:15,760
Speaker 3: publicly about you know who she was. And so I'm

1399
01:14:15,800 --> 01:14:19,439
Speaker 3: excited that Lord is saying, Okay, you know, you've said it.

1400
01:14:19,560 --> 01:14:21,400
Speaker 2: You got through it, and I didn't cry the whole

1401
01:14:21,439 --> 01:14:26,559
Speaker 2: time I was holding it. I was holding it.

1402
01:14:29,080 --> 01:14:32,320
Speaker 3: But I I you know, I think I'm appreciative that

1403
01:14:32,360 --> 01:14:36,760
Speaker 3: you have allowed me to share this and to just

1404
01:14:36,880 --> 01:14:42,919
Speaker 3: hear that she was a person too that had a struggle.

1405
01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:47,439
Speaker 3: She wasn't just you know this woman that was out there.

1406
01:14:47,600 --> 01:14:51,280
Speaker 3: She she had a personal mental struggle and that's why

1407
01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:55,200
Speaker 3: you know she stalked him, And so I think that

1408
01:14:55,439 --> 01:14:59,560
Speaker 3: kind of sensitivity, I hope helps people see her a

1409
01:14:59,600 --> 01:15:00,559
Speaker 3: little bit differently.

1410
01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:04,360
Speaker 1: So really your takeaway, Hope is, seems to me a

1411
01:15:04,360 --> 01:15:06,960
Speaker 1: few things. Number One, people would see the underlying faith

1412
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:10,280
Speaker 1: component that God is good and God is real and

1413
01:15:10,360 --> 01:15:14,720
Speaker 1: brings peace even through about as broken of a circumstance

1414
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:18,280
Speaker 1: as somebody can come through. That seems to be a

1415
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:21,200
Speaker 1: b would just be that somebody with mental illness affects

1416
01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:25,080
Speaker 1: the whole family. But this is a person and that's

1417
01:15:25,120 --> 01:15:27,760
Speaker 1: a human being. That's a big takeaway for me because

1418
01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:29,920
Speaker 1: I just remember as a kid hearing about Michael Jackson

1419
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:31,680
Speaker 1: Stocker and when you told me, I was like, oh

1420
01:15:31,720 --> 01:15:35,639
Speaker 1: my goodness, like I probably said something as a kid,

1421
01:15:35,640 --> 01:15:38,240
Speaker 1: I don't even know, probably something insensitive. I could imagine

1422
01:15:38,240 --> 01:15:39,720
Speaker 1: when I was eight or ten years old, and you're like,

1423
01:15:39,840 --> 01:15:43,400
Speaker 1: this is a human being, This is my mom, and I

1424
01:15:43,479 --> 01:15:47,439
Speaker 1: loved her. That's a huge takeaway. How do you want

1425
01:15:47,479 --> 01:15:49,760
Speaker 1: people just to respond to this? Did that really sum

1426
01:15:49,840 --> 01:15:51,280
Speaker 1: up what your heart is and sharing this?

1427
01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:53,439
Speaker 2: I think so.

1428
01:15:55,920 --> 01:15:59,360
Speaker 3: I think the final takeaway is, you know, like everything

1429
01:15:59,400 --> 01:16:03,080
Speaker 3: all of those that you've said, but that Also all

1430
01:16:03,120 --> 01:16:06,240
Speaker 3: of these things lead back to who Jesus is, Amen,

1431
01:16:06,439 --> 01:16:10,479
Speaker 3: and all of these things, Like, this is my story,

1432
01:16:10,520 --> 01:16:13,920
Speaker 3: but it's not the end of the story, and there's

1433
01:16:14,160 --> 01:16:18,800
Speaker 3: more and God can keep using you because we have

1434
01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:23,920
Speaker 3: an eternity coming and so this is a stamp, but

1435
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:26,240
Speaker 3: this is not it. And like there's so many more

1436
01:16:26,240 --> 01:16:30,840
Speaker 3: things that God has done in my life and that

1437
01:16:31,080 --> 01:16:33,800
Speaker 3: this wasn't the only thing that defined me. But it

1438
01:16:33,920 --> 01:16:37,559
Speaker 3: was impactful, yeah, for sure, to say the least.

1439
01:16:37,680 --> 01:16:40,400
Speaker 1: Well, my hope is that people will invite you to

1440
01:16:40,439 --> 01:16:43,519
Speaker 1: come speak. My hope is that your book that you've

1441
01:16:43,560 --> 01:16:45,439
Speaker 1: been talking about and you're working on right now, this

1442
01:16:45,600 --> 01:16:48,120
Speaker 1: maybe could give some encouragement to that and open up

1443
01:16:48,160 --> 01:16:50,840
Speaker 1: some doors for you. I think you have a super

1444
01:16:50,840 --> 01:16:53,280
Speaker 1: important voice today that needs to be heard. That's a

1445
01:16:53,320 --> 01:16:56,040
Speaker 1: part of your story. And so this has been a

1446
01:16:56,080 --> 01:16:57,760
Speaker 1: treat and I've been looking forward to this for a

1447
01:16:57,800 --> 01:17:00,760
Speaker 1: long time. Thanks for giving me the privilege of being

1448
01:17:00,840 --> 01:17:03,360
Speaker 1: the one to partner with you to share your story.

1449
01:17:03,560 --> 01:17:04,599
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Sean.

1450
01:17:04,880 --> 01:17:07,639
Speaker 1: You bet Hey, friends, if you enjoyed this show, please

1451
01:17:07,720 --> 01:17:10,519
Speaker 1: hit that follow button on your podcast app. Most of

1452
01:17:10,560 --> 01:17:12,960
Speaker 1: you tuning in haven't done this yet, and it makes

1453
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:15,800
Speaker 1: a huge difference in helping us reach and equip more

1454
01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:20,000
Speaker 1: people and build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review.

1455
01:17:20,320 --> 01:17:24,000
Speaker 1: Every review helps. Thanks for listening to The Sean McDowell Show,

1456
01:17:24,120 --> 01:17:27,960
Speaker 1: brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University,

1457
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:31,320
Speaker 1: where we have on campus and online programs, and apologetic

1458
01:17:31,360 --> 01:17:34,639
Speaker 1: spiritual information, marriage and family, Bible, and so much more.

1459
01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:37,719
Speaker 1: We would love to train you to more effectively, live, teach,

1460
01:17:37,800 --> 01:17:40,639
Speaker 1: and defend the Christian faith today and we will see

1461
01:17:40,640 --> 01:17:42,519
Speaker 1: you when the next episode drops.