1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: Life Audio. Hey, Cliff and Stewart, thanks for joining me. 2 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 2: Thanks for having us Michael. 3 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:11,120 Speaker 1: Thanks by Gaul and Stuart Connectley, authors of the new 4 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: book Demolishing Doubt. Both of you are well known for 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: your apologetic administry ministry Give Me an Answer, and for 6 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: your podcast and for the YouTube videos that are going 7 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: viral even as I talk. Give Me, Give Me an 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: Answer dot orgus the website. You've spent years guys engaging 9 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: skeptics on college campuses. 10 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 3: How did that start and why did you want to 11 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:32,959 Speaker 3: do it? 12 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 2: Well, it started forty six years ago before Stewart was born, 13 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 2: on the beaches to Forta Loda Delle, Florida, during an 14 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 2: inter varsity spring evangelism project. I stood up and began 15 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 2: to preach, and students opped off their towels sunbathing, and 16 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 2: they started firing questions at me. So I scrapped my 17 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 2: outline and started answering their questions, and after about an hour, 18 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 2: I said, my voice is tired. I'm going back to 19 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 2: the hotel. And gradually univarsity staff and students said, hey, 20 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 2: would you try this on our campus? And so Suny 21 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 2: Albany was the first campus we started on, and it's 22 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 2: been a blast ever since we haven't stopped. Why do 23 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 2: we do it? We do it because we want to 24 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 2: get to people who don't believe in Christ. We don't 25 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 2: want to tell Christians how to accept Christ, and that 26 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 2: we found that going outside into the open air was 27 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 2: a great, great way of switching the percentages in the 28 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 2: crowd from ninety percent Christian to ten percent non Christian 29 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 2: to ninety percent non Christian and ten percent Christian. So 30 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 2: that's why we've been doing it for forty six years 31 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 2: and it's been a privilege to have Stewart joined me 32 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:33,680 Speaker 2: in it. 33 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: Stewart, did you initially want to do this or were 34 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 1: you kind of hesitating first? 35 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 2: Well, it really blew up. Even when I was in 36 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 2: high school with my brothers out of their basements. It's 37 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 2: really hard to get any type of traction going in 38 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 2: our town. It's an incredibly wealthy, secular town. But this 39 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 2: type of Q and A really pumped up partying rabble 40 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 2: rousers in our high school. So they wanted to do it. 41 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 2: So I think that's when I really started to get 42 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 2: excited about it, and then naturally my faith really grew 43 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 2: and really it led me to seminary out of books 44 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 2: like Rabbi Zacharias's and others. I despised reading, but all 45 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 2: of a sudden I loved reading all because of apologetics 46 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 2: and theological books. That kind of led me to seminary 47 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 2: and then just naturally this is one of my definitely 48 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 2: my favorite ministries at the church. 49 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:30,959 Speaker 1: So how have the questions changed from gen z or 50 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: young people? Of course, how have the questions from young 51 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 1: people changed over the years. 52 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,679 Speaker 2: They really haven't changed in content, but they've become more 53 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 2: firmly embedded in our culture. Truth has been relative in 54 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 2: the United States on university campuses for years and years 55 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 2: and years, but now there is a commitment to relativism 56 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 2: that is profound. It's expressed in such statements as perception 57 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 2: defines reality. You've got to be kidding me. If I 58 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 2: perceive that I'm in London, England right now, it doesn't 59 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 2: mean it's true. That's a false perception. So that's more 60 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 2: firmly embedded. Science versus the Bible, science versus faith in 61 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 2: Christ is more firmly embedded. It's always been a problem, 62 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 2: but it just seems emotionally to be more firmly embedded. Thirdly, 63 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 2: although there is not much change in the content of 64 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 2: the questions. There's definitely a change in the emotional makeup 65 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 2: of the students. My dad, when he was eighteen, sat 66 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 2: in the Alps of Switzerland holding a gun as Hitler's 67 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 2: panzer divisions approached Switzerland. He talked with his father was 68 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 2: down on the front lines. Unfortunately, Mussolini, I think, called 69 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 2: Hitler up and said, don't go into Switzerland. My money's 70 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 2: in there. But that's a far cry emotionally for an 71 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 2: eighteen year old to be facing Hitler's Panzer divisions from 72 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 2: students who, when Donald Trump wins an election have to 73 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 2: go to a crying room for counseling. Because President Trump 74 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 2: won the election. That is some emotional for Jill, the 75 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 2: likes of which I've never seen, and so that has 76 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 2: altered a bit of our intensity, a bit of our 77 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 2: approach to issues. 78 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: Let's talk about Demolishing doubt. What inspired you to write 79 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: Demolishing Doubt? What will readers encounter in it? 80 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 2: Demolishing doubt is essentially the way I handle atheists. When 81 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,799 Speaker 2: someone steps forward and says I'm an atheist, I'm an agnostic, 82 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 2: I first go out, Okay, fine, I understand. Now let's 83 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 2: talk about the evidence for the existence of God. Then 84 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 2: once we get through that and a person says, okay, 85 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 2: I'm open to God's existence, then the next question is, well, 86 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 2: who is this God? What is this God like? And 87 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 2: that's where Jesus Christ comes into the picture. But the 88 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 2: obvious question is can you get a reliable historical picture 89 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 2: of Jesus by reading the New Testament gospels? And so 90 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 2: the second point is what is the evidence that Matthew, Mark, 91 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 2: Luke and John give us accurate historical information for this 92 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: Jesus of Nazareth. Then after we work through that, the 93 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 2: next question is, well, what does the historical evidence point 94 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,799 Speaker 2: to regarding the reliability of Christ? Is he a quack? 95 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 2: Or does the evidence point to him being the truth? 96 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: And then after that, once we agree that indeed, the 97 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 2: evidence of his lifestyle is teachings, the teachings obviously of 98 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 2: an ethical genius. Thirdly the way he dies, loving and 99 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 2: forgiving his enemies, and then fourth through the way he 100 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 2: rises from the dead. That points to him being reliable. 101 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 2: Now we've got to take a step of faith, and 102 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 2: what is biblical faith. Biblical faith is a response to evidence. 103 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 2: So that's what the book Demolishing Doubt is basically all 104 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 2: about going from evidence to the existence of God, to 105 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 2: evidence for the reliability of the New Testament Gospels, to 106 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 2: evidence for the historical reliability of Christ, and then to 107 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 2: what is real faith. But I would say too, just 108 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 2: to add on to that, the agent first came to 109 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 2: Cliff and said, your initial book, give me an answer 110 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 2: was a lot of these pastel arguments did very well. 111 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 2: But now let's build upon that and also have narratives 112 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 2: we've in and have chapters build upon each other. And 113 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 2: so he's got those classical arguments. But then also the 114 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 2: story is tied in which a lot of folks kind 115 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 2: of really enjoyed. And then Zonovan has said a lot 116 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 2: we were tantalized by kind of how we compliment each other. 117 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 2: We are not writers, unfortunately like you, Michael, we don't 118 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 2: have that gift, but we do compliment each other. I 119 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 2: hope very well on college campuses and in these podcasts, 120 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 2: because he goes after those arguments which really have built 121 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 2: the whole ministry. And I have a background in psychology, 122 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 2: mental health and family systems, and so what I try 123 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 2: and do is bring in, you know, all the terms, 124 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 2: you know, how do you deal with expressive individualism, How 125 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 2: do you deal with moral therapeutic deism, how do you 126 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 2: deal with the therapeutic age? Michael Reef, Philip Reef, And 127 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 2: so I try and deal with all those and say, hey, 128 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 2: here's how our generation is really connected to these terms, 129 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 2: and how do we bring the Gospel in it in 130 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 2: such a way where you can feel a lot of 131 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 2: healing through the gospel. And we've seen one of my 132 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 2: favorite things to see a very secular person's blinders just 133 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 2: come off and start to understand what we're talking about. 134 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 2: And then the thing I like the most is somebody 135 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 2: who's who now understands, hey, Jesus actually is the way, 136 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 2: the truth and the life, and they're sobbing about it, 137 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 2: and you physically look at them and you say, this 138 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 2: is the last person I'd ever guess we'll become a 139 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 2: Christian And they just have the tears running and saying, 140 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 2: there's nothing like the Gospel that ever would have healed me, 141 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 2: no pill, no any type of crutch. And so that's 142 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 2: what gets really exciting. And I think we have the 143 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 2: one two punch, hopefully which he brings the arguments, and 144 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 2: then I kind of bring that a little bit of 145 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 2: the psychotherapy and they work together I think pretty well. 146 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 2: Or another way to put it is he brings the nice, 147 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 2: hard arguments and breaks down to somebody who's very fragile, 148 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 2: and then I try, and you know, gently, with my counseling, 149 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 2: put the pieces back together. So so we joke around 150 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 2: like that, but hopefully it compliments each other fairly well. 151 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 2: A Zondervan really liked that for the book, So. 152 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you guess compliment each other really well. 153 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: You know, at the core of you of industry guys, 154 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: this is this a belief that people should be able 155 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: to defend their faiths and there aren't answers to tough questions. 156 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: Several years ago, there were several high profile Christians who 157 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: walked away from the faith, and I was struck by 158 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: the fact that some of the questions that troubled them 159 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: were basic questions that you know, that I was able 160 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: to answer years ago. So my question to both of 161 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: you is, why do you questions? Why does apologetics matter 162 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: so much right now in this kind of season of deconstruction, 163 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:38,079 Speaker 1: even though we're kind of a one tail end of that. 164 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:39,719 Speaker 1: Why does this subject matter so much? 165 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,959 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, yeah, I'm trying to convince churches to get 166 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:49,719 Speaker 2: apologetics ministries. Many of them still are very against it, 167 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 2: oftentimes because the pastor is very insecure, not wanting to 168 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 2: get questions that doesn't know the answers to. So that's 169 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 2: oftentimes to tied to culture as well and denomination. But 170 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 2: it's so important right now because so many people are 171 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 2: seeking after different answers to hard questions related to Hey, 172 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 2: I lost a loved one during COVID, or hey the 173 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 2: divorce rate is over fifty percent and my parents have divorced. 174 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 2: Why and is there something more? Are there going to 175 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 2: be relationships past the grave because I am really chewed 176 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 2: up with the death of a loved one, or hey, 177 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 2: look at our political divide it seems like and nobody 178 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 2: can agree morally on anything, or just shouting over each other. 179 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 2: And what's the basic value of life? Where does that 180 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 2: come from? And so I think a lot of these 181 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 2: questions are hitting people square in the face. And so 182 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 2: no longer is it the typical apatheism where it's just 183 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 2: I don't care about these questions, and I don't care 184 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 2: about where we came from and where we could be going, 185 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 2: and does my life have objective value? I think we 186 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 2: probably kind of hit that, it seems like to me, 187 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 2: at least on college campuses a decade ago, a little 188 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 2: bit of we hit more of those students who said, 189 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 2: why are you guys out here? Who cares? This is 190 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 2: all just kind of theoretical mumbo jumbos, Why does it 191 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 2: even matter? And so we had to start with, well, 192 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 2: don't you tie your shoes in the morning. I mean, 193 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 2: you're living for something even though you think these questions 194 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 2: are ridiculous. But now we get way less of that. 195 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 2: It's people are way more honest about you know. My 196 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 2: favorite is the happy nihilists that we phase. You know, 197 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 2: some of these people, you're just like, okay, so you're 198 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 2: a nihilist of fatalists and you think we're going nowhere, 199 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 2: but you're happy. Why why are you happy? If you're 200 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 2: going to be consistent in that type of thinking. So, 201 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,719 Speaker 2: I honestly think the questions are tougher and I think 202 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 2: there's more issues. Some historians would disagree with me on that, obviously, 203 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 2: but I do think that there are more issues that 204 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 2: are acutely hitting people in the face, that people want 205 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 2: to dig through. And it's not like this generation is 206 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 2: smarter than the last, but it's that emotional intellectual piece 207 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 2: that people want answers to, and so I think apologetics 208 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 2: is more me now to their issues. 209 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 3: That ever, let me ask you truth or questions. 210 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:14,959 Speaker 1: As we've been going to close here, I want to 211 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 1: give people just a sense of the types of apologetics 212 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: you guys deal with by asking you some big questions. 213 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: And one of those questions is the existence of God. 214 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: And do you guys have a go to argument or 215 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:29,719 Speaker 1: way to approach the issue when you only have a 216 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: couple of minutes when somebody says does God exist? Where 217 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: do you go there? 218 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 3: If you're in an elevator or sitting beside somebody in 219 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 3: an airplane. 220 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 2: Many different areas that we can jump into. So I 221 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 2: try to learn as many different ways to answer that question, 222 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 2: which is a great question. One of the first ones 223 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 2: is if there is no God, what you believe is 224 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 2: non existence produces existence. That's a miracle, but you have 225 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 2: no miracle worker. If you think there is no God, 226 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 2: you believe that chaos produces or that's a miracle, but unfortunately, 227 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 2: I have no miracle worker. Thirdly, if there is no God, 228 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 2: you believe that non life produces life. That is a miracle, 229 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,959 Speaker 2: but unfortunately you have no miracle worker. And fourthly, if 230 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 2: there is no God, you believe that non reason produces reason, well, 231 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 2: that's definitely a miracle. But unfortunately I don't have a 232 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 2: miracle worker. So the way you live your life, the 233 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 2: way you observe reality, is best explained by the existence 234 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 2: of some type of God. So that's one approach I take. 235 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 2: Another approach I take is You're right, it's frustrating that 236 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 2: we can't see God, but I can't see love. I 237 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 2: can never x ray love or justice. But to be 238 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 2: honest with you, my life is more about love and 239 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 2: justice than it is about quantum physics. Love means so 240 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 2: much to me, I know it's real. And to insist 241 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 2: that a kiss is the approach of two pairs of 242 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 2: lips with a reciprocal tree tansbission of carbon dioxide and microbes, 243 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 2: it's so superficial, it's so trivial. It's incredible. Now you 244 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:08,599 Speaker 2: know that there is more to love than simply a 245 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 2: chemical reaction just to drive to preserve the genetic pool. 246 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 2: You experienced it. So, now, what is the best explanation 247 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 2: of your experience of love and justice? And I would argue, 248 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 2: obviously it's a personal God who creates us, our bodies, 249 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 2: our chemicals, and that's all good, But there's more to us. 250 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 2: We have a soul, a free will, a conscience, a 251 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 2: rational mind, none of which you can put in the 252 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 2: bottom of a test tube, but they are crucial to 253 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 2: life as we enjoy it. 254 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: Talk about the second issue, which is the resurrection of Christ, 255 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: the historicity of the resurrection of Christ. When you only 256 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 1: have a couple of minutes to talk about that issue, 257 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: did what evidence do we have for Christ's resurrection? 258 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 2: What do you say, Oh, Gary Habermass, who I'm sure 259 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 2: you know is coming out of that what four said? Volume? 260 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 2: Each book is like seven hundred pages. So I just 261 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 2: start with look at all the archaeological, historical testimony that 262 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 2: is coming out and only increasing greatly. An atheist will 263 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 2: scratch their head and said, oh, oh, I didn't had 264 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 2: no idea about that. And then my favorite out of 265 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 2: all the different pieces of evidence and related to the 266 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 2: resurrection is just you have to have an answer to 267 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 2: why in the world it's so many Jews overnight become Christians. 268 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 2: There had to have been some type of match that 269 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 2: lit something on fire and there was this explosion of 270 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 2: people who would have had to jump through way more 271 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 2: hoops than we do even in our scientific age, to 272 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 2: actually accept Jesus Christ as the Lord of their lives 273 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 2: and be willing to die for him. You know, standing 274 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 2: in the coliseum there in Rome, thinking about how in 275 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 2: less than one hundred years, three hundred and sixty thousand 276 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 2: Christians were butchered to death in that small arena, it 277 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 2: starts to get you thinking, well, why in the world 278 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 2: did they just die for a lie? Have been more 279 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 2: than that? What power, money, sex, or power did they 280 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 2: have to gain in doing so? So, I think, out 281 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 2: of all the evidence, that's still probably my favorite ones. 282 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about what many Christian leaders are seeing 283 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: as a revival or a movement of God nationwide among 284 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: gen Z. You guys are on college campuses a lot, 285 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: You're around this this agea. 286 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 3: Of a lot. 287 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: What do you what are you seeing among college students 288 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: and among gen Z? Is is there a movement of God, 289 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: a genuine movement of God going on. 290 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 2: Yes, there's a genuine movement of God going on. But 291 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 2: there's also a deeply entrenched secularism materialism, and those two 292 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 2: are obviously in contradiction of each other. Now, why the 293 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 2: a revival many different reasons. Obviously, ultimately it's the Holy 294 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 2: Spirit who's doing that work. But I think that a 295 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 2: lot of young folks are sick and tired of the superficiality, 296 00:15:54,080 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 2: the triviality of a godless existence, and they begun to 297 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 2: get hurt deeply by things like divorce, by alienation, by 298 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 2: the insistence of evil, to just keep on knocking at 299 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: people's doors, the temptations of life, and they're saying, there's 300 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 2: got to be something more. So I think it's a 301 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 2: part of it is a real desire to dig deeper 302 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 2: and not just to settle with Well, the purpose of 303 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 2: my life is to make money. The purpose of my 304 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 2: life is to have a large stock portfolio. The purpose 305 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 2: of my life is to have pleasure, physical pleasure. Oh, 306 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 2: the purpose of my life is to be comfortable, physical comfort. 307 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 2: And I think they're seeing through the hollowness of that 308 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 2: and asking the deeper questions, which means they are spiritually hungry. 309 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 3: Steward, do you have any thoughts on that issue? 310 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, I think the spiritual but non religious is 311 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 2: changing very quickly, and I think people again want structure. 312 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 2: It's interesting how Catholicism and Greek Orthodox, Easter Orthodox. Those 313 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 2: are the two quickest growing denominations, if you will, And 314 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 2: it's because so many of these college students want this structure, 315 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 2: they want this order, and I respect that greatly. Even 316 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 2: though we get pressed very frequently on the Eucharist and 317 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 2: people want to debate that one. That's a little bit 318 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 2: frustrating for us because we're there to talk and challenge 319 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 2: secularists predominantly. But still I still love it, and I 320 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 2: think it's the whole Jordan Peterson like, get up and 321 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 2: make your bed in the morning and have some structure 322 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 2: to your life that a lot of people are grasping 323 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 2: on to you, just in a different sort of way. 324 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 2: So that's the first one. And then this God shaped 325 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 2: hole will always be there knocking at the door, and 326 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 2: you can try as many things as you want, but 327 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 2: you're never going to fill it until it's actually God. 328 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 2: And probably the toughest friend that I have, top d 329 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 2: one athlete, broke down in tears not too long ago 330 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 2: with me at the dinner table, and he said, I 331 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 2: am just tremendously jealous that you have objective value purpose 332 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 2: meaning in your life. I don't have that. I'm living 333 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 2: for the health of my family, and there's a demise 334 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 2: right now and certain family members' health, and that's my God, 335 00:17:55,880 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 2: and I'm realizing that cannot buoy me whatsoever. I think 336 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 2: the revival, or call it the surge. Every ministry I've 337 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 2: talked to other than maybe one across all the campuses 338 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 2: we've gone to in the last year saying they're just 339 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 2: exploding at the seams, I think those are those are 340 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 2: two more that students are really chasing after. And I 341 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 2: just think the joy that so many students are seeing 342 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 2: within whether it's a frat, a sorority, any campus ministry, 343 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 2: I think that's really attractive. And in our I'm sure 344 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 2: you've written a lot, Michael about how much individualism there 345 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 2: is in our society today. These students are looking at 346 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 2: maybe even the Harvard studies showing if you want emotional, physical, 347 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 2: life expectancy, getting off drugs, if you want all these 348 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 2: things to happen, well you're gonna want healthy community, and 349 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 2: that the church statistically is by far away the healthiest 350 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 2: community for those things to happen. And so I think 351 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 2: I see, obviously you still the frozen chosen churches, but 352 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 2: I think the majority of these college students are seeing tremendous, honest, 353 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 2: authentic joy within these Christian communities until they want to join. 354 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: In my final sixty seconds, herey give advice to people 355 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 1: who are afraid to share their faith. And I'm asking 356 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: two people who do it boldly and do it for 357 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: hours at a time sometimes, what advice would you give 358 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: those people in their situations? And secondly, do you, guys 359 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 1: ever get stumped? Do you ever just have to say 360 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: that's a good question. Let me think about that. 361 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 2: Well, the best answer I give is I do not know. 362 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 2: That smashes the whole stereotype that a Christian is someone 363 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 2: who claims to have all the answers all the difficult questions. 364 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 2: It opens up why the door that you better learn 365 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 2: how to live with mystery if you're going to live 366 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 2: in reality. And then secondly, why continue to share your faith? Well, 367 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 2: in the issue of truth has life and death consequences. 368 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 2: Persuasion is an act of love. So sharing my faith 369 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 2: is not some wicked, manipulative proselytize it. No, no, no, 370 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 2: Jesus Christ. The truth of Christ deal with the issues 371 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 2: of life and death. And therefore, when you and I 372 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 2: seek to persuade people that Jesus is the truth, that 373 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 2: is an act of love, that's not some empty, headless, 374 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 2: brainless proselytism. 375 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 3: And end to that, seriorty have any faults on that 376 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 3: before we close? 377 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's honestly, it's amazing, whether it's on a college 378 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 2: campus or at our church, how people will say our 379 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 2: favorite answer that you give is I do not know. 380 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 2: And so it smashes the stereotype of a typical pastor 381 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 2: who feels like I have to defend God no matter what. 382 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 2: God is not big enough to defend himself, and so 383 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 2: so I think when students see that, it's honest and 384 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 2: they want it, so we genuinely do get stumped. But 385 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 2: there's also that side of atheist secularists Muslims feel like, 386 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 2: in order for your worldview to be true, you have 387 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,239 Speaker 2: to be able to answer every single little question and 388 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 2: give me this big word proof, even though nobody can 389 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 2: agree on what that word even means. And so no, 390 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 2: if we're gonna go by that, then we get stumped 391 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 2: all the time. But obviously, at the Christian worldview is 392 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 2: primarily about history philosophy, not so much about scientific proof, 393 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 2: So getting stumped is just fine. If it been turning 394 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 2: it back over on them. It's a lot of for secularists. 395 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 2: Stop doing that. I want to try and punch holes 396 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 2: in your worldview. 397 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: If you like today's episode, please subscribe and leave a 398 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: five star review. 399 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 3: That's how we help more people just like you find 400 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 3: the show. 401 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 4: A big thanks to the team at life Audio for 402 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 4: their partnership with us on the podcast. If you go 403 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 4: to lifeaudio dot com, you will find dozens of other 404 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 4: faith centered podcasts in their network. 405 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: See you next time.