1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: Life Audio Today's episode of Timeless Wisdom, I have got. 2 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 2: You deep in Laha. Well, this is one of the 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 2: songs that I will hear every day prior to the show, 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 2: and I got to tell you it puts me in 5 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 2: a good mood. It does. It has a wonderful effect 6 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 2: on me. And I just can't tell you how impressed 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 2: I have been with listening to this guy singh. 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. I'm sixteen years old and I was in Power Records, 9 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 3: I think one time, and you know the little listening 10 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 3: station things that they have in there. I put on 11 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 3: the headphones and there was a Frank Sinatra CD playing, 12 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 3: and I just listened and it kind of drew me 13 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 3: in because it really sounded cool. 14 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 2: He smoked two unfiltered packs. 15 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 4: A day over long periods, although depending who you talk to, 16 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 4: he stoked the heavy drinking all the heaviest of the 17 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 4: drinking and cut back on the cigarre in the weeks 18 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 4: before an important concert or before a recording even more so. 19 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: That's coming up on Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Welcome 20 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 1: to Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Here thousands of hours 21 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: of Dennis's lectures courses in classic radio programs, and to 22 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles, go to Dennisprager dot com. 23 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 2: Hello everybody, and welcome to the show. You're listening to 24 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 2: the Dennis Prager Show, where I claim that we talk 25 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 2: about everything in life, and this will be an example 26 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 2: of it. I have to before I introduced the authors 27 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,639 Speaker 2: of a new biography that has just been published by canap, 28 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 2: I have to tell you why I came to non 29 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 2: classical music late in my life, or I don't know, 30 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 2: late in my life, whatever age you are, it could 31 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 2: be late in your life. Oddly enough. Usually people find 32 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 2: classical music in adulthood. I found popular music in adulthood. 33 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 2: And one of the aspects of it that has most 34 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 2: just taken me over is the great American singer Frank Sinatra. 35 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 2: In fact, Sean almost every day prior to the show, 36 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 2: for about ten to twelve minutes, plays Frank Sinatra for me, 37 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 2: I kill I've gotten you, Am I scared? I have 38 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 2: got you. 39 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 5: Deep in Nahar. 40 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 2: Well, this is one of the songs that I will 41 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,119 Speaker 2: hear every day prior to the show, and I got 42 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 2: to tell you it puts me in a good mood. 43 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 2: It does. It has a wonderful effect on me. And 44 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 2: I just can't tell you how impressed I have been 45 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 2: with listening to this guy sing. And I have just 46 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 2: come across this new biography of Frank Sinatra, filled with 47 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 2: pictures as well as a great fascinating detail about his life. 48 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 2: The two authors are Anthony Summers, who was a former 49 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 2: BBC journalist, and Robin Swan who's also a journalist, and 50 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 2: they have written biographies of jay At Gohover and Richard Nixon. Anyway, 51 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 2: this book is titled Sinatra the Life. You can't get 52 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 2: much briefer than that, much more concise. So Anthony and Robin, 53 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 2: I welcome you to the program. Hello, you're both now 54 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 2: I'm speaking to you. You're in Ireland. 55 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 4: Yes, that's our home base, okay, we both Robin, as 56 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 4: you will gather in a moment. Is America, Italian, American, 57 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 4: Bonne and bread. I'm from Ireland and this has been 58 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 4: my base for years, but America in a way has 59 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 4: been my patch as a journalist for many years. 60 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 2: Well, well, welcome to America via radio to both of you. 61 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 2: I have so much to ask you. First, I guess 62 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 2: the first is do you believe? Because I was talking 63 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 2: about this just the other day, I finally came across, 64 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 2: didn't come across. I finally worked out my own definition 65 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 2: of great art, music or any other art, and that 66 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 2: is that it will endure over generations there are two, 67 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 2: and that it endures in repeated hearings for any given listener. 68 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 2: Will Frank Sinatra endure? 69 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 4: I think we think so? Would you agree, Robin? 70 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 6: Absolutely? 71 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 4: I think we think so. And a measure of it, 72 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 4: perhaps is that is in sheer longevity and endurance. As 73 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 4: a test, we worked on this book, Sinatra The Life 74 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 4: for the past four years. And when I say worked, 75 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 4: I mean sort of eight days a week, and that 76 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 4: meant that eight days a week and often far into 77 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 4: the night. We both played Sinatra. We had to because 78 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 4: we were writing his life, and we still like it. 79 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 4: There aren't many people that you could listen to every 80 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 4: day for four years, and I'm still We're not suck 81 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 4: of him. 82 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 2: That's right. I mean even Mozart would be put to 83 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 2: the test. Yeah, so now, all right, so he passes 84 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 2: the repeated listenings of the individual test. My other one 85 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 2: was the next generation. Do you have any evidence that 86 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 2: a thirty year old today will will listen will bias 87 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 2: Sinatra CD. 88 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 6: Oh, certainly there are many young singers in fact, who 89 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 6: are trying to mold themselves allah Sinatra. Look at the 90 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 6: success that Robbie Williams had recently with a set of standards, 91 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 6: an album of standards. Look at the success even of 92 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 6: a Rod Steward. Okay, he's not a thirty year old artist, 93 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 6: but he appeals to that age group as well, Michael Booby, 94 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 6: there are lots of young people coming along who are 95 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 6: emulating the Sinatra style, or at least trying to learn 96 00:05:57,760 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 6: from it. 97 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 2: Well, now, it's good thing here, but that would beat 98 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 2: my criteria if the next generation and the next generation. 99 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 4: Listen to him, well, and he's unless all the people 100 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 4: who make I mean, the lowest level of music is 101 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 4: perhaps musak, the music you hear in the elevator, Unless 102 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 4: all the people who are involved with muzak are over 103 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 4: thirty or even older, then it has to be said 104 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 4: that there are still people, really fairly young people who 105 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 4: decide that he deserves to be there. And of course, 106 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 4: as you know, there are still all over the United 107 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 4: States disc jockeys who special and radio programs that specialize 108 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 4: in playing almost uniquely Frank Sinatra, and they need listeners, 109 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 4: and apparently they have masses of listeners. 110 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to invite any of my listeners. I 111 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 2: rarely discriminate on the base of basis of age, but 112 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 2: I'd like to know any listeners under let's say thirty 113 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 2: three that have taken to Frank Sinatra. One eight Prager 114 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 2: seven seven six is the number? 115 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 4: Hey forget about to get about on the thirty three. 116 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 4: We have a son of eleven who calls him the 117 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 4: man singer and knew who Frank Sinatra was long before 118 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 4: we were doing this book. 119 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 2: Is that no kidding? Well, no, that that's certainly a 120 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 2: good sign. Anyway, The number is one eighth Praguer seven 121 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 2: seven six. Incidentally, I picked up on your sensitivity when 122 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 2: you said elevator rather than lift. That you knew you 123 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 2: were speaking to an American audience and already translated into 124 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 2: American English. So I picked up on that. Now what 125 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 2: I I have my own theories, but I'm more interested 126 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 2: in yours. On this What constitutes his greatness? In a nutshell? 127 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 2: Why is he? Why is he so great? What did 128 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 2: he do? He's saying a song that others didn't. Well, 129 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 2: go ahead he said. 130 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 4: About this, Go ahead, you were a good physicology. One 131 00:07:57,960 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 4: could talk about it for ours. But you know, he 132 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 4: said late in life that when he was asked what 133 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 4: he wanted to be remembered for, and this goes rather 134 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 4: to what you were saying just now, I'd like to 135 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,119 Speaker 4: be remembered for having made popular music and art form, 136 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 4: which may or may not be a meaningful of art. 137 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 4: But he added, and to have reached people. And I 138 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 4: think it's the reaching people that is the key thing. 139 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 4: That he didn't just sing the songs jingle jingle. He 140 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 4: seemed to have and in many cases had experienced the 141 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 4: emotions that he sang about, and that comes through always. 142 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 2: You know, that's exactly what I believe when I hear 143 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 2: him sing. I believe that he believes it well. 144 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 3: You know. 145 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 6: The interesting thing, and one of the things we try 146 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 6: to do in the book is explore that the journey 147 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 6: that Sinatra took himself musically as he grew as an artist, 148 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 6: and the influence that many of the greats of the 149 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 6: jazz tradition, say or Billie Holiday, Mabel Mercer, those kind 150 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 6: of people had on him. Sinatra credited Billie Holiday as 151 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 6: one of his greatest significant musical influences. And he said 152 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 6: of her that she lived inside the song, and he 153 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 6: learned to do that. He taught himself to live inside 154 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 6: those lyrics and inhabit them in a way that really 155 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 6: gets to us. All. He shares them and Emo, that's. 156 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 2: Great line, that's right, inhabits the song. I'll tell you 157 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 2: one other thing that may seem tried to some listeners, 158 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:38,239 Speaker 2: but to me is of tremendous significance. I effortlessly understand 159 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 2: every word he is singing. I cannot say that about 160 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 2: most singers. 161 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 4: No, And this was part of his insistence on perfection. 162 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 4: Early on. You mentioned classical music early on and that 163 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 4: you'd moved from from classic moved on from classical music. 164 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 4: He never really moved away from classical music. And I 165 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 4: think very few people know this, and that's why I'll 166 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 4: introduce it. Early on, he said he'd like to have 167 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 4: been a great opera singer, but he didn't have that 168 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 4: sort of voice, that sort of range. But early on 169 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 4: he discovered went to Carnegie Hall and discovered classical music. 170 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:21,559 Speaker 4: He liked a Boosy Brown's ravel, Ragmaninoff and Wagner, And 171 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 4: if people went to see him years on into his life, 172 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 4: when he was a mature and famous man that he'd 173 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 4: never played Sinatra at home, or very rarely he'd really 174 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 4: played pop music. He'd play the classics, and one of 175 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 4: the things he liked about the classics was the discipline 176 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 4: of the classics. He of course came out New Joysey 177 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 4: and spoke when not performing a great deal of the 178 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 4: time spoke New Jersey and spoke like that. But he 179 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 4: taught himself, went to a former Met opera singer as 180 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 4: a teacher and taught him him self in New York 181 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 4: how to sing in an understandable way. His diction was 182 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 4: crucial to him, and in the studio when he was recording, 183 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 4: he insisted even long after the famous arrangers like Nelson 184 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:19,439 Speaker 4: Riddle so May Alam May would would say, Okay, it's 185 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 4: a take. He would say, no, no, it must be 186 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 4: done again because something that he thought he'd miss. 187 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 2: I love that, I love and perfection all. We'll be 188 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:31,319 Speaker 2: back in a moment. The book is a brand new 189 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 2: biography Sinatra. The Life and the Phone numbers one eight, 190 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 2: Praguers seven, seven, six, The lines all lit up already. 191 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 2: Apparently we have a lot. We'll be back in a moment. 192 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this. 193 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: Now back to more of Dennis Prager's I'm Less Wisdom. 194 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 2: The summer in. 195 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 5: Came blowing in from across the sea. 196 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 2: It lingered there to touch your hair and walk all right, everybody. 197 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 2: Dennis Brager here, Anthony Summers and Robin Swann in Ireland, 198 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 2: authors of this new biography of Frank Sinatra, Sinatra of 199 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 2: the Life, published by Knapp. One thing you can always 200 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 2: say about cannopp aside from that they often publish wonderful books, 201 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 2: is that they are the finest paper, most beautiful layout 202 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 2: that I as one has been published a number of times. 203 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 2: I really appreciate that we're talking about Frank Sinatra, and 204 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 2: I want to take a couple of calls. I really 205 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 2: obviously want to devote the time to you, the authors. 206 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 2: But it is interesting to me how quickly the lines 207 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 2: lit up when I said, if you're under thirty three 208 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,719 Speaker 2: and you love Sinatra, and I have to believe that 209 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 2: the speed with which they lit up says something. Here's 210 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:17,679 Speaker 2: a fifteen year old in Diamond Bar, California. Sixteen year 211 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 2: olds Ven, Hello, Sven. 212 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 3: Hi, Dennis, Yes, go ahead, Yeah, I'm sixteen years old 213 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 3: and I was in Tower records, I think one time, 214 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 3: and you know the little listening station things that they 215 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 3: have in there. I put on the headphones and there 216 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 3: was a Frank Sinatra CD playing and I just listened 217 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 3: and it kind of drew me in because it really 218 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 3: sounded cool and it was just something that I really 219 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 3: enjoyed listening to. And I like kind of the you know, 220 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 3: the jazzier songs. 221 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 2: Uh huh. 222 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,199 Speaker 3: You know, it was all just really good music. 223 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 2: Do you have friend Do you have friends your age 224 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 2: who like Sinatra? 225 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 4: Yeah? 226 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 3: Actually, I've got about three or four of my friends, 227 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 3: and you know, I had them. I bought one of 228 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 3: the CDs, and you know, they were listening to it. 229 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 3: I think we were in the car driving somewhere and 230 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 3: they all listened to it and they thought it was 231 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 3: really cool too. 232 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 2: So I think a couple of well that passes my test. 233 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:07,079 Speaker 2: I thank you, let's go. 234 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 4: Can I come in just for sss? 235 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 2: Oh, of course you're the author. 236 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 4: You're allowed playing the summer wind there. Just before you 237 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 4: came back to us. It reminded us that when he 238 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 4: was an old guy and singing on an extraordinary musical marathon, 239 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 4: he did one thousand, more than a thousand concerts between 240 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 4: nineteen seventy six and nineteen ninety and sometimes he couldn't 241 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 4: remember the words of his favorite songs, and the voice said, 242 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 4: really was shot and gone, And yet he had something special. 243 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 4: And he sang the Summer Wind in New Jersey at 244 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 4: a concert, and people half a century his junior took 245 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 4: to the isles and danced to it in the aisles 246 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 4: during the concert. 247 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's unique, I mean from my musical sense. Dallas, Dallas, Texas, TJ. 248 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 7: Hello, t Hey, Dennis, Yes, Hey, I'm a I really 249 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 7: appreciate you taking my call. I'm a really big fan 250 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 7: of the show. Thank you very Whenever I put Frank 251 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 7: Sinatra on, it really gets on my wife's nerves. I'll 252 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 7: start dancing around, and usually it's a. 253 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 2: Song like how how old are you? How old are you? 254 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 7: I'm twenty four, okay, But I'll put I'll put Frank 255 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 7: Sinatron and I'll play like Witchcraft, and I'll start dancing 256 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 7: around like Fred Astaire. And so she just rolls her eyes. 257 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 7: She can't believe that I love that music so much. 258 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 6: I've heard of Frank Sinatra being used to wu women, 259 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 6: but I've never heard of him being used to intentionally 260 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 6: offend him. 261 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 2: Well he's married all that. Well, at least we have 262 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 2: TJ's testimony, if not his wife's. Let's get a woman 263 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 2: carrying Minneapolis, Minnesota. 264 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 8: Yeah, Hi, Dennis, Hi, I'm so excited to talk to you. 265 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 2: Thank you for oh wonderful thank you. 266 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 8: I'm thirty one. I started listening to Sinatra though, when 267 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 8: I was probably around eleven or twelve. And reason being 268 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 8: at the time was I grew up in western North 269 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 8: Dakota and we only got about two radio stations at 270 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 8: the time, and one of them was hard rock, which 271 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 8: I just didn't like. The other was Prayer Public station. 272 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 8: So I just was so drawn to listening to him 273 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 8: at that age. First it was Glenn Miller and then 274 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 8: it became him. But I remember growing up in high school. 275 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 8: I got made so much fun of at the time, 276 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 8: but I listened to old people's music, is what they'd say, 277 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 8: and I kept thinking, No, I know I'm right on 278 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 8: this one. 279 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 2: I know he's cool, how interesting, he's cool. All right, Look, 280 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 2: I can't take all the calls, because that's all I 281 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 2: would do the whole hour. Matt Is twenty eight, Tim 282 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 2: thirty three, Robert thirty three, Rich twenty eight from around 283 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 2: the country. In fact, one of them see Tim says 284 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 2: he recently got married and they played Sinatra. With the reception, 285 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 2: a lot of people commented how classy it was. Let's 286 00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 2: go to his life. Is there a disconnect between his 287 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 2: life and his public persona. 288 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 6: Well, you know, one of our charge from our publisher 289 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 6: was to try to square the circle between Sinatra, the 290 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 6: great romantic singer, the great artist, and the other Sinatra 291 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 6: that we've read so much about over the year is 292 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 6: the one who was renowned almost as much for his 293 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 6: allegedly loutish behavior, or his ties to the mob, or 294 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 6: his numerous involvements with women. And we were trying, and 295 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 6: we tried, and we think we have given the reader 296 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 6: the fullest possible information on those those two, that dichotomy, 297 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,719 Speaker 6: that split, and there was there was sort of a split. 298 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 6: But if he hadn't been such a complex character, perhaps 299 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 6: he wouldn't have had the ability to sing those songs 300 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,439 Speaker 6: that way. So so really you don't necessarily get the 301 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 6: best result from the artist who isn't a complex creature. 302 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 4: Well, I think let's not beat about the bush. We've 303 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 4: been assailed by some of the critics since the book 304 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 4: came out for giving a great deal of coverage to 305 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 4: the darker aspects of the man's life. That the darker 306 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 4: aspects really were there. They're real. 307 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:17,120 Speaker 2: The mob. 308 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 4: Everyone while we were writing the book, if we'd go 309 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 4: out to dinner with people, they'd say they wanted to know. 310 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 4: Two things they'd ask about the mafia. Tell us about 311 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 4: the mafia, why the mafia they wanted to know? And 312 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 4: tell us about Sinatra's own love life. He sang about love, 313 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 4: but tell us about his love life. That is why 314 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 4: the book is called the Life the music. You know, 315 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 4: I find we've written about the music. Maybe a quarter 316 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 4: of the book is devoted to that, and I'm very 317 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 4: glad that we've talked about it today. But music is 318 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 4: above all for listening to it becomes dry on the page, 319 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 4: hard to write about it. This is very much about 320 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 4: the man. 321 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 2: And you feel that had he led a lesson what 322 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 2: you call complicated or complex life, it would have affected 323 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:10,640 Speaker 2: adversely his artistry. That the two are entwined, the. 324 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 4: Color who knows? Really, I mean, these are the unknowable true. 325 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 4: I think so often his experiences. 326 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 2: Are well, let's talk about that, I mean. 327 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,400 Speaker 4: Love and I'm thinking about Ava Gardner. Of course, here 328 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 4: you can't listen to I'm a fool to Want You, 329 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 4: in which he had a hand in the writing himself, 330 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 4: and which he first sang. Maybe I'm wrong there, I'll 331 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:38,120 Speaker 4: have to check, but he certainly sang in the throes 332 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 4: of his unhappy obsession with with Aver Gardener, you just 333 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 4: can't listen to I'm a fool to Want You without 334 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 4: feeling his pain. And that's we touched earlier on how 335 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 4: he said he reached people and love is not very often, 336 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 4: perhaps sadly, more often than not. Love is not all 337 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 4: about happiness and romance and dancing off into the sunset. 338 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 4: It's about pain and. 339 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 2: Loss, which he had a great deal of, despite the 340 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 2: fact or I guess related to the fact that he 341 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 2: had so many women. We'll talk about the many women. 342 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 2: The book is filled with photographs, every one of which 343 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 2: I found so fascinating, and I will say, if you 344 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 2: want to simply see a series of truly beautiful women, 345 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 2: beautiful to look at women, his taste was quite extraordinary. 346 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 2: We will be back in a moment the book Sinatra 347 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 2: the Life I have the authors on with me. 348 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 1: And this episode of timeless wisdom will continue. 349 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 2: Right after this. 350 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 5: Or nothing at all. 351 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: Now back to more of Dennis Cragor's timeless wisdom. 352 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 2: Love never feel to me. 353 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 5: If you're heart and have a good year to me, 354 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 5: then rather rather not than at. 355 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 2: All, say this is to me. This is spoken as 356 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 2: well as some. This is Frank Sinatra. I'm Dennis Prager 357 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 2: and I have the co authors of this major new 358 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 2: biography of Frank Sinatra. It's called Sinatra The Life Anthony 359 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 2: Summers and Robin Swan. You have a quote in your 360 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 2: book that I'll read to you from George Fraser, the 361 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 2: legendary Boston Globe critic. He said to Frank Sinatra directly, 362 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 2: quote all your life you wanted to be a big man, 363 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 2: but the wrong kind of big man. You're a sad case, Frankie. 364 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 2: I think you're the best male vocalist that ever lived, 365 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 2: but I also think you're a miserable failure as a 366 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 2: human being. Was that accurate or exaggerated? 367 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 4: It was certainly tough from the hip. You can't as 368 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 4: a biographer. 369 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 2: I mean, we. 370 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 4: Really work at this, and we work to try and 371 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,880 Speaker 4: get as far as one can humanly into the person, 372 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 4: the personality and the suffering and the joys of the 373 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 4: person that we're studying, and this was a guy who 374 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 4: whom we ended up liking in spite of and that's 375 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 4: a very big in spite of, in spite of his 376 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 4: involvement with the mob. I think you must ask her, 377 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 4: but I think Michael author Robin as a woman liked 378 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 4: him as a person in spite of his pretty savage 379 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 4: treatment of many of the women that he knew, and 380 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 4: the women that we interviewed, and we were lucky enough 381 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 4: to talk to now that he's gone, he's been gone 382 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 4: almost exactly seven years, to talk to a number of 383 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 4: the women that he knew for significant significant periods of 384 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 4: his life, and almost to a woman, they spoke of 385 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 4: him in spite of the way he'd sometimes treated them, 386 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 4: He spoke of They spoke of him with lasting affection. 387 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 4: This is a guy who had something very very positive 388 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 4: and yet could be a really unpleasant person. I think 389 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 4: we found that a large, a large reason for this, 390 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,199 Speaker 4: which people weren't really aware of, was his drinking. He was, 391 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 4: of course a sort of walking advertisement for Jack Daniels, 392 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 4: and that that was treated throughout his life as a 393 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 4: kind of a joke about him. In fact, it was 394 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 4: much more serious than that we established that he drank 395 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 4: as much as a bottle of Jack Daniels a day 396 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 4: over a period of decades, and that along with with 397 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 4: with smoking hugely two packs of untipped camels a day. 398 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 4: And of course the miracle is that he could still 399 00:23:54,800 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 4: perform and that voice, wait, I find for years and 400 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 4: stayed with us. 401 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 2: Well a minute, I excuse me, I fired that fascinating. 402 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 2: He spoke, smoked two unfiltered packs. 403 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 4: A day over long periods. Although depending who you talk to, 404 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 4: he stopped the heavy drinking or the heaviest of the drinking, 405 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 4: and cut back on the cigarettes in the weeks before 406 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,439 Speaker 4: an important concert or before a recording even more so. 407 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 2: But he didn't. But he didn't stop the sex right before. 408 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 4: A concert, not that we know. We're not authorities on 409 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 4: that one. 410 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 2: Oh, I thought you in fact, note that it was 411 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 2: important to him prior to a recording session or a 412 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:40,719 Speaker 2: concert to have had had sex. No, that was that 413 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 2: is not that is not all I can. 414 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,479 Speaker 4: Tell you, because we lasted a biography of Richard Nixon. 415 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 4: That whereas Nixon worried and and fast and sat up 416 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:53,719 Speaker 4: in the middle of the night as it were, biting 417 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 4: his nails before the debates with JFK. What JFK did 418 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 4: before the first debate was to arrange to have a 419 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 4: woman brought into him to calm him down before he 420 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,959 Speaker 4: went on air. I don't have a recollection like that 421 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:08,479 Speaker 4: unless you can put me right. 422 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no, I am so sorry. I had 423 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 2: heard that, and I didn't recall if you had written 424 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 2: it or not. So that is not dared. So it's 425 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 2: more legend than anything else. How many women did he marry? 426 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 6: Well, he married four women. 427 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 2: Can you tell us who they were? In order? 428 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 6: Sure? He married Nancy barbado Hit, the hometown girl, beautiful 429 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 6: woman whom he brought to California with him when he 430 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 6: became a star. And unfortunately beautiful though she was, she 431 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 6: was the hometown girl. And as the wonderful pianist Joey 432 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,360 Speaker 6: Bush can describe it to me, she was neighborhood serious, 433 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 6: and Frank had less the neighborhood he got to Hollywood. 434 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 2: That's a great line. 435 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 6: It was a great line. And you know he quickly 436 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 6: fell fell fout of the Lana Turners, the wonderful beautiful 437 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 6: women of Hollywood, of the most important of whom was 438 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 6: Ava Gardner, who became his second wife, and of course 439 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 6: his absolute obsession for life, his obsession even after they're divorced. 440 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 2: All right, we'll take numbers three and four in a moment. 441 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 2: I just want to remind everybody that we are speaking 442 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 2: to the authors of Sinatra the Life just published by Knap, 443 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 2: and we'll continue with his wives and the whole issue 444 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 2: with his wife. We have a thirteen year old from 445 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 2: Nebraska who says she has been listening to Sinatra for 446 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 2: a while. Wow. We'll be back in a moment. I'm 447 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 2: Dennis Praeger. 448 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:38,719 Speaker 5: That's life. 449 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 2: That's what all the people say. This is the one 450 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 2: that gets me high. 451 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 5: And April shut down in May. 452 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:55,880 Speaker 2: But I know I'm gonna change. He's that tune, folks. 453 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 2: I want this played as I leave. When I'm back 454 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 2: on top, back on top of I am go crazy. 455 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 2: That's live. And do you know, my dear authors, I 456 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,919 Speaker 2: told you my background is classical music. I periodically conduct 457 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 2: orchestras in Southern Californian fact and I got to tell you, 458 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 2: the chill factor in that song and some of his others, 459 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 2: for me, is similar to the chill factor in a 460 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 2: Great Beethoven symphony and so on. A purely emotional gut level, 461 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 2: and it touches me as much as a piece by Beethoven, 462 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 2: which I find incredible given my background where I had 463 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 2: a you know, a belief that the best music is 464 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 2: by far classical. 465 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 4: And as I said, it was the same for him. 466 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, that that fascinates me. And and and his uh, 467 00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 2: his belief that it taught him discipline and perfection, which 468 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 2: is what comes through. It is what comes through when 469 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 2: you hear him sing. And I love hearing that because 470 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 2: everybody should be inspired to know you can't get the 471 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:16,160 Speaker 2: great results easily. And he makes it sound effortless. That's 472 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 2: critical as well, isn't it? 473 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 6: Absolutely? But that phrasing was very much learned, learned from 474 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,880 Speaker 6: Tommy Dorsey, learned from watching. 475 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 2: Heifitz on the violin Wow Wow. 476 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 6: Thinking to himself that what Heifitz could do with the bow, 477 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 6: he could do with his voice. 478 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 2: Oh. I love that. I love that. Okay, I so 479 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 2: identify with what a great musician can do for you. 480 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 2: Let's go back to the wives. 481 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 4: So we read music. 482 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 2: Oh and as wat's his name, couldn't uh the great 483 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 2: American jazz writer? Oh? God? Who who who composed? God? 484 00:28:53,760 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 2: Bless America? What's uh, I feel Gershwin again the minute. Anyway, 485 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 2: he is not the I did not know that he 486 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 2: could not read music, so he was only did he 487 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 2: re memorize the lyrics or was he. 488 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 4: Reading them well during his early and middle years. Yes, 489 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 4: at the end, he couldn't remember the lyrics, but he 490 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 4: worked on the lyrics, he said. Actually, he varied. He 491 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 4: contradicted himself. On occasion, he said, first, it's the story 492 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 4: in the song that matters, the lyric that matters, That's 493 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 4: what matters first. On other occasions he'd say that it 494 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 4: was the melody that the music that mattered. Obviously both 495 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 4: matter enormously and they have to fit each other. But 496 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 4: the lyric was enormously important to him. By the way, 497 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 4: every song should be a story, which he does. 498 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 2: Incinnati was Irving Brillin. Irving Berlin. I could not read 499 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 2: music either. So now we have two great Irving Berlin 500 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 2: and Frank Sinatra. Let's go back to the wives. So 501 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 2: the new Jersey neighborhood girlfriend whom he married, that's number one, 502 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 2: Ava Gardner's number twe to. 503 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 6: You said very young the a pharaoh. 504 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 2: Hold on one minute, let's stick to Ava Godner. From 505 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 2: how long was that marriage? 506 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 6: Oh, well, the marriage was only a very short time. 507 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 6: They married in nineteen fifty one after about a two 508 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 6: year affair. They were separated by early in nineteen fifty four, 509 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 6: and their divorce came through in nineteen fifty seven, so 510 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 6: they were actually only married for about two and a 511 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 6: half to three years. Now we were lucky enough to 512 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 6: get some tapes of Ava Gardner talking about their relationship 513 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 6: which was very much fueled by alcohol on both of 514 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 6: their parts, by serial infidelity which probably began with her, 515 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 6: and affairs she had during their early marriage, which he 516 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 6: then quickly quickly escalated into tit for tat and violent exchanges, 517 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 6: not physical violence so much as emotional and you know, 518 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 6: c loud, loud arguing alcohol fueled rouse. But you know, 519 00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 6: his obsession with her went on well, passed their divorce. 520 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 4: Before the marriages to Miir Farah, which Robin was about 521 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 4: to mention, and then his last marriage to Barbara Marx. 522 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 4: She'd previously been married to the youngest of the Marx brothers. 523 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 4: He went back to Ava Gardner as he had many 524 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 4: other times, and saying couldn't we get together again? To 525 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 4: her credit, I think once they had parted in the 526 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 4: early fifties, said, look, you know it will never work. 527 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 4: We didn't see each other, but it's never going to work. 528 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 4: There will always be an explosion again and the whole 529 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 4: thing will collapse. But he doggedly went on pursuing her, 530 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 4: seeing her, helping her in later years when she was sick, 531 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 4: and when she finally died, she predeceased him. She died 532 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 4: in nineteen ninety He died in nineteen ninety eight. He 533 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 4: agreed to appear because he promised to at a large 534 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 4: concert in Albany, New York. But he had a bottle 535 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 4: of Jack Daniels with him on stage, and somebody who 536 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 4: was told us that he was clearly grieving on stage, 537 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 4: openly publicly, for the loss of the one woman that 538 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 4: had really preoccupied him for all the long, gut years 539 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 4: of his life. 540 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 2: Did he love his final wife, Barbara Marx? 541 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 4: I always think that, you know, the greatest arrogance for 542 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 4: a biographer is to say that he knows. 543 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 2: Very good who. 544 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 4: And what went on in the bedroom. We have to 545 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 4: try to do it, because that's the job. But did 546 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 4: he love her? He stayed with her for more than 547 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 4: twenty They were together for more than twenty years. 548 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 2: She clearly was. 549 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 4: However, up and down that relationship, and it was at 550 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 4: times up and down. Clearly she was the woman who 551 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 4: worked for him, I mean with whom it worked in 552 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 4: those last years leading on to his old age. There 553 00:32:55,120 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 4: are those and not least his two daughters who Barbara 554 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 4: Sinatra and say that she was, as it were, the 555 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 4: wicked stepmother who forced their father to or persuaded their 556 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 4: father unreasonably to go back to work. And there are 557 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 4: others very close to the family who say that she 558 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 4: was the best thing that there possibly could have been 559 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 4: for him in those last years. Who are we to judge? 560 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 4: We've printed what the various parties have said and leave 561 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 4: it to the reader to think about two things. 562 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 2: One, the statement that I had made about his wanting 563 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 2: to have sex prior to every recording session, that comes 564 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 2: from George Jacobs, his valet. So I guess you don't 565 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 2: describe much. 566 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 4: I knew George Jacobs many years ago, long before I 567 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 4: worked on this book, and he wrote, you know, a 568 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 4: sensational book about mister s. He called his former boss 569 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 4: just a year or so ago, and of course the 570 00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:00,239 Speaker 4: book was ghosted. George Jacobs is a good man, a 571 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 4: decent man, a man who still talks of the man 572 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 4: he worked for for many years with great respect and 573 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 4: generally speaking, I think the book is honest, truthful. It's 574 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 4: it's down to the basics with George. 575 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 2: Jacobs, all right, because we'll take we've got to take 576 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 2: a break in it our crucial years. All right, We'll 577 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:21,280 Speaker 2: be back in a moment. 578 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 1: This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this. 579 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: Now back to more of Dennis Prager's timeless wisdom. 580 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 5: If I don't see each day, I miss. 581 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: Gee. 582 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 2: What a thrill each time I kiss her. Welcome back, everybody, 583 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,799 Speaker 2: Dennis Prager here got a case. The author is the 584 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 2: call authors of the new Sinatra biography Sinatra, the lighte 585 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 2: and Any Summers, and Robin Swan she takes. There was 586 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 2: so much, I tell you, it's painful for me to 587 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:08,760 Speaker 2: have to say goodbye in a couple of minutes, because 588 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,839 Speaker 2: I've just been riveted by all of this, by this man. 589 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 2: I wanted to ask Robin a question seeing in seeing him, 590 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 2: did you ever see him live? No, I'm afraid I okay, 591 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 2: In watching and watching films of him, in listening and 592 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 2: in reading about him, did you understand the I almost 593 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,359 Speaker 2: have to say animal magnetism he held for women, You. 594 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 6: Know I did. It was in part it was talking 595 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 6: to the incredibly intelligent women who we talked to for 596 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 6: the book, who I really could relate to, who described 597 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,919 Speaker 6: him so well, and the magnetism of those blue eyes 598 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,720 Speaker 6: and the way they held you. But also watching things 599 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 6: like the wonderful interview he did with Walter Konkreie back 600 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 6: when he was fifty years old, and listening to him 601 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,959 Speaker 6: talk about singing and talk about his life. He really 602 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 6: did have an incredible magnetic quality. But also, for instance, 603 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 6: watching him perform is say, in high society, watching him 604 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 6: do that amazing duet with Bing Crosby, did you Ever? 605 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 6: Which is one of the best duets I've ever seen, 606 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,280 Speaker 6: with two men singing in a most amazing, sort of robust, 607 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 6: amusing song. But You've got you were infected with this 608 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 6: their jouis de vis, with their their enormous personalities, and 609 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 6: in particular with frank sort of sex appeal, and he 610 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 6: did have it. 611 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 4: I want you know that a friend another friend said 612 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 4: of him, and this was a friend a musician actually, 613 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 4: but said of him that he could he could turn 614 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 4: turn in seconds, though there would be this man with 615 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 4: this great magnetism, this lovely man to be with, and 616 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,840 Speaker 4: suddenly he could be the meanest as be. But it 617 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:52,720 Speaker 4: was almost always associated with drink, which we touched on earlier. 618 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 4: But I wanted to make the point that we submitted 619 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 4: what we gathered for the manuscript on his drinking over 620 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 4: his lifetime to a couple of people who are experts 621 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 4: on alcoholism, and although they're very cautious about judging when 622 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 4: the patient isn't there and is gone, they said that 623 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 4: he showed all the symptoms of being an alcoholic. So 624 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 4: there's a really sad side to the man which goes 625 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 4: far to explain the dark things that we had to 626 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 4: explore when writing about his. 627 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 2: Life, as you did so well, and I just wish 628 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 2: we had more time. Paul, Mary, Joanna the thirteen year 629 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,359 Speaker 2: old who listens to him in Scott's Bluff, Nebraska, and 630 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:35,959 Speaker 2: Elizabeth and Tom and others. I'm so sorry I didn't 631 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 2: get your calls. The book is Sinatra of the Life 632 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 2: Anthony Summers and Robin Swan. What's your next biography? 633 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 4: It's you, Dennis, be very afraid. 634 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 2: That's very good. It's not quite as sexy, all right? 635 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,839 Speaker 2: Thank you? So much, and good luck with whatever you write. 636 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 2: It's very much. It's been a real joy. Don't go away, everybody. 637 00:37:58,120 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 2: This is Dennis. 638 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,760 Speaker 1: Prager Tamar on Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. 639 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,280 Speaker 2: I got a letter here from a listener in Louisville, 640 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 2: Eden Gasior. Dennis, I love your show. Listen and download 641 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 2: as often as I can. I don't know if you've 642 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 2: done this before, but I thought that a good topic 643 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:18,760 Speaker 2: for me would be how to be your own best 644 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,760 Speaker 2: friend or something like that, Ways that you could treat 645 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,760 Speaker 2: yourself nicely on a daily basis to keep your happiness 646 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 2: level up, because we can't be happy with others if 647 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:32,799 Speaker 2: we have perfectionist tendencies with ourselves. Well, Eden, I won't 648 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,359 Speaker 2: talk about the perfectionist part as much today. I will 649 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:42,360 Speaker 2: leave that for another time, but I will talk about 650 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,799 Speaker 2: how to be your own best friend or something like that, 651 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 2: as you put it, ways to treat yourself nicely on 652 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 2: a daily basis. See, everything in life, everything is a 653 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 2: middle road everything, and it is very hard. The human being, 654 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 2: by nature, is no not a middle of the rotor 655 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 2: is not a moderate. By nature, we are extremists. Whatever 656 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 2: we do, we tend to go toward the extreme, so 657 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:16,839 Speaker 2: that many people are just preoccupied with themselves. That's narcissism, 658 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:19,879 Speaker 2: and I've done a number of programs on that, where 659 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 2: you're just preoccupied with you and you can't be happy. 660 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 2: If you are, it is not possible. But if you 661 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 2: are not sufficiently preoccupied with you, you also can't be happy. 662 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 2: How do you like that? 663 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,360 Speaker 1: Join us tomorrow to hear more on Timeless Wisdom with 664 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 1: Dennis Prager. Visit Denispragger dot com for thousands of hours 665 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,759 Speaker 1: of Dennis's lectures, courses, and classic radio programs, and to 666 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 1: purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles. We want to take just 667 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 1: a second to thank the team at Life Audio for 668 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 1: their partnership with us on the podcast. Go to lifeaudio 669 00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,440 Speaker 1: dot com to find dozens of other faith centered podcasts 670 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: and their network, including shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, 671 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:03,759 Speaker 1: and more.