1 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: My book earlier this year is Real and Civilization, The 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:10,639 Speaker 1: Fate of the Jewish Nation, The Destiny of the West 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: is a book, not, as the title would necessarily imply, 4 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: just about foreign policy or anything like that. Rather, it 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: is a book about the foundations the origins of Western civilization. Well, 6 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:22,799 Speaker 1: as it turns out, there was at least one other 7 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: author out there who had something of a mind melt 8 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: with me, and that woman is Melanie Phillips. Melani Philips 9 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: is a long standing British conservative commentator, newspaper columnist, TV presenter, 10 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: and also the author of the book that I currently 11 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: hold in my hands, in which I recently read myself, 12 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: The Builders Stone, How Jews and Christians built the West 13 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 1: and why only they can save it now The Builderstone 14 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: and my book is on civilization. There are some things 15 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: that are a little different, I think Melani and I 16 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: don't necessarily agree on everything. We'll see if there are 17 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: any areas where we disagree over the course of our 18 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: conversation here in just a few moments. But certainly broadly speaking, 19 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: we agree on the big questions. And the big question 20 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: is essentially as follows in the aftermath of the Hamas 21 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: program of October seven, twenty twenty three, And not just 22 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: the pagram, but the world's reaction to the Pagram, And 23 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 1: boy was that a horrific reaction. In the aftermath of that, 24 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: can the West recover? Can the West one understand what 25 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: it is that which built it, which above all is 26 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: a biblical inheritance. Can the West understand that? Can it 27 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: come to appreciate that? And can it come to fight 28 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: for that and take a stand for that? That is 29 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: the most important thing, because the reaction to the program 30 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: wasn't just quote unquote anti Israel or anti Semitic, it 31 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: was anti Western. When you are failing to distinguish between 32 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: a culture that loves life and a culture that loves death, 33 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: for a culture that flourishes and a culture that seeks 34 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: destruction subjugation. When you can't distinguish, when you are incapable 35 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: of logical you are morally discerning between these two dichotomous, 36 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: completely opposing forces, then you have lost the plot. And 37 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:10,679 Speaker 1: if the West is to be saved, it must re 38 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: understand the plot at its most basic, rudimentary level. Because 39 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: it was the Bible that gave us Western civilization. Sure, 40 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: there is absolutely a role to be played for some 41 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: no Biblical sources, namely ancient Greek and Roman Greco Roman thought. 42 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: There's a role for that, certainly, no doubt about that, Aristotle, Cicero, 43 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: any of the greats. But the West would not be 44 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: the West where not for the Bible. It's not necessarily 45 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: just free speech or the marketplace of ideas or the 46 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: economic market places in general. These things are important. There 47 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: are key features of moderny is something that Melani Phillips 48 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: emphasized in her book. But the core, the absolute bedrock 49 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: of that which has made us great, and that which 50 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 1: alone can actually still make us great. The core is 51 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: the Bible. That is these shared inheritance of Jews and Christians. 52 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: That is, these shared inheritance of the original people of 53 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 1: the book, the original folks led by Moses who stood 54 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: there at the base of Mount Sinai during the Revelation, 55 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: the shared inheritance of the children of Issiel, the Jews 56 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: and Christiendom, the great gentile offshoot that spread the message 57 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: and civilized what today is known as the West. Jews 58 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: and Christians should both be proud of the role that 59 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: their religions have played in the development of the West. 60 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: But if the West is going to stand up today 61 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: against the forces that seek to subjugate it, against intersectional wokeism, Islamism, 62 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: and global neoliberalism. It's going to have to regain some 63 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: confidence and appreciation of what it once was and what 64 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: God willing will once again be in short order. Well, 65 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: it's the end of the holiday season and it's the 66 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: time of the year where we are all having those 67 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: deep questions as to what should we believe, should we 68 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: believe in anything at all? What is the basis of 69 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: our civilization? All the fun things that we discuss not 70 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: just this on of the year, but oftentimes on a 71 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: day day basis here on the Josh Hammer Show. And 72 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 1: it's really a thrill to bring on a long standing writer, 73 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 1: thinker and commentator who's been saying and writing about these 74 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: very topics for many many years now, including most recently 75 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: in the form of the book that I Hold in 76 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: my hands, The Builder's Stone. Melanie Phillips is the author 77 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: of The Builderstone. She's also a columnist at Times of London, 78 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: long standing British conservative commentator. I recently finished this book 79 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: and thoroughly enjoyed it. So Melanie Phillips, thank you for 80 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: joining the Josh Hammer Show. 81 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Josh, very good to be with you. 82 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: Well, it's really a delight. So I did recently finish 83 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: this book, as I said, and I was struck by 84 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: reading it. Melanie, I think you and I had something 85 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 1: of a mind meld for your book. In my book, 86 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: Israel and civilization have a lot in common. There are 87 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: some differences, to be clear that they're not exactly verbatim 88 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: carbon copy, but very broadly speaking similar books written in 89 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: a in a post October seventh milieu in this world, 90 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: the world where the world has been morally confused as 91 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: as to who to side with, not just between Israel 92 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: and Hamas, but more broadly speaking, between civilization and barbarism. 93 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 1: More generally speaking, Melli, I think I think one thing 94 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: that I would like to kind of start in and 95 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 1: to get our conversation started here. For a while, right 96 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: of center partisans such as myself, perhaps yourself as well. 97 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: I'm not sure how you would self described, but conservatives, 98 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: I think felt pretty reassured that we were unanimously on 99 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,039 Speaker 1: the side of team civilization and not team barbarism. But 100 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: unfortunately here in the United States there have been some 101 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 1: signs that not everyone who thinks of him or herself 102 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: as being conservative or on the right is necessarily part 103 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 1: of teams civilization. I was told me that maybe you 104 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: could kind of just dive in unpack some of these strands. Here, 105 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: what is Western civilization as you can see and define it? 106 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:10,720 Speaker 1: And then perhaps by extension, why do you think that 107 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 1: some folks who think of themselves as being on the 108 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: right seem to have lost the plot a little? 109 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 2: Yes? Well, to me, western civilization is more than just 110 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 2: a geographical area. Obviously, it consists very largely of the 111 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 2: geographical West. But to me, it's an idea, and the 112 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 2: idea is modernity. To me, the West became the West, 113 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 2: as it were, in the way that we think of it, 114 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 2: when the modern world really emerged after the eighteenth century Enlightenment, 115 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 2: when we had the division of church and state, the 116 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 2: arrival of toleration of minorities, the development of what became 117 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 2: democracy and the democratic nation state, and that powered what 118 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 2: we now think of as the world, which was to 119 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:07,919 Speaker 2: be the cutting edge of technology, of science, of reason. 120 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 2: That's what I mean when I that's what I mean 121 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 2: when I talk about the West. Now, your second question 122 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 2: was what happened to the West and was that your question? 123 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 2: What was your question? 124 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: Well, let's let's start there. I want to get into 125 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: also some internest sine fights happening on the right of center. 126 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: Let's let's let's start with why did conservatives? 127 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 2: Why do conservatives lose the plot? Okay, so perhaps undlike yourself, 128 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 2: I never thought conservatives had the plot. Ever, to me, 129 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 2: conservatives had lost the plot a long time ago. And 130 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 2: it's really the failure of conservatism, I would say, over 131 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 2: several decades, which has caused this situation to occur. Because 132 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 2: for sure, what has driven what we are now seeing, 133 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 2: the eclipse of reason, the replacement of truth by power, 134 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 2: ideologies based on power relations, and all those things which 135 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 2: from which I think in large measure the animus against 136 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 2: Israel has developed. It was the left that powered all 137 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 2: that through their ideological preconceptions and obsessions. But we should 138 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 2: have been able to rely on conservatives to conserve, to 139 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: understand what was at stake, what was at risk, and 140 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 2: from where I was sitting, and I'm going back now 141 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 2: to you may be shocked to hear this, but even 142 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 2: in the time of Margaret Thatcher, when I was a 143 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 2: young journalist and I was working for The Guardian, and 144 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 2: it was considered by everybody on the left that she was, 145 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 2: you know, totally dreadful and so right wing and so on. 146 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 2: And it was around that time that I began to 147 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 2: realize something was going terribly wrong with the West, and 148 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 2: I decide did I realized that she didn't understand what 149 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 2: was going on at all, and that the right, the 150 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 2: forces of conservativesm And I'm really speaking from Britain because 151 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 2: from the perspective of Britain, because that's the country I 152 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 2: know best. But I think this kind of crosses over 153 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 2: to a large extent to what happened in America as well. 154 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 2: Maybe not quite the same time, but what happened was 155 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:26,319 Speaker 2: that this that when the Soviet Union collapsed, when the 156 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 2: Berlin Wall fell, I remember conservatives in Britain saying, what 157 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 2: do we do now for an encore? We've shot our fox, 158 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 2: we don't have an enemy anymore. What banner are we 159 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 2: now going to march behind? And I remember the answer 160 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 2: the answer was, we will march behind the banner of liberty. 161 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 2: And at that time, at that point, I thought, oh, no, 162 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 2: they don't get it, because if they are adopting liberty 163 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 2: as their light motif, they are going to occupy exactly 164 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 2: the same patch of ideological ground as the left. The 165 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 2: left did liberty in the social sphere, lifestyle choice. Everybody 166 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 2: makes up their own lifestyle. Nobody can tell anybody that 167 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 2: their lifestyle or culture is better than anyone else, all 168 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 2: that sort of stuff. It's basically to do with the self. Me, 169 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 2: I am an individual whose own subjective perspective trumps facts 170 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 2: and evidence and reason. That was what the left was saying, 171 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 2: and it was busily collapsing Western education as a result, 172 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 2: because it decided that the nation's state, the Western nation state, 173 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 2: was born in the original sins of colonialism and imperialism 174 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 2: and exploitation and whiteness and all the rest of it. Now, 175 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 2: faced with this, the conservatives didn't really it didn't realize 176 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 2: this because the conservatives only saw the Soviet Union. The 177 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 2: Soviet Union disappeared, therefore there was no problem anymore. So 178 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:57,319 Speaker 2: what we they're going to do? They were going to 179 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 2: have liberty as their load star. So they adopted liberty. 180 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 2: From the point of view of economics. They decided that 181 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 2: the free market was the solution to everything that was 182 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 2: wrong in the world. I remember missus Thatcher thinking saying, 183 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 2: in fact that if everything in Britain was run like 184 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 2: Marks and Spencer iconic store, which was at that time 185 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 2: very well run, then everything will be fine. And I 186 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 2: remember thinking, none of these conservatives understands that what has 187 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 2: gone wrong is a denial of the world springs of 188 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 2: Western culture and Western civilization, which is rooted in biblical values, 189 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 2: which consists of upholding a set of traditions rooted in 190 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 2: history going back, in the case of Britain and the West, 191 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 2: many hundreds of years. And if you get rid of that, 192 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 2: if you get rid of that scuffolding, the society and 193 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 2: the culture will implode. It will just disintegrate. It will 194 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 2: no longer know what it is, it will no longer 195 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 2: love what it is, it will no longer want to 196 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 2: defend itself. And that's exactly what happened. Scroll on down 197 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 2: all these decades and we arrive at now, and there 198 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 2: are elements on the on on, on what's called the right, 199 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 2: which do understand this. They understand that in order for 200 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 2: the Wester survive, it has to reconnect to its core 201 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 2: values rooted in its historic traditions, in its religion. It's 202 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 2: it's its religious basis, uh, and in the institutions that 203 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 2: have kept it going, but they understand that. But at 204 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 2: the same time, in America we have seen this faction 205 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 2: or this this this, this this element in in conservatism 206 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 2: which kind of got that I think correctly, has itself 207 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 2: now splintered, and we've seen the emergence of I think 208 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 2: you were alluding to this the Tucker Carlson, Nick Fuentez, 209 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 2: canda own tendency, which has gone down a conspiracy theory 210 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 2: rabbit hole, which is deeply, deeply anti Semitic and has 211 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 2: an entirely false idea of what America is and what 212 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 2: the West is and how they should behave And so 213 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 2: America is in a state of confusion. Britain is not 214 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 2: in that state of confusion yet he doesn't have an 215 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 2: equivalent to Tucker Carlson and Nick Fuentes. It has a 216 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 2: few fringe actors on the extreme white supremacist right, but 217 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 2: they really are tiny. But Britain has a different trajectory 218 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 2: that Britain has. Kind of if you can imagine America 219 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 2: as being I see it in a sort of pictorial form. 220 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 2: America is kind of divided down the middle. You have 221 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 2: the people who want to preserve America and Western civilization 222 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 2: on one side, you have the people who want to 223 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 2: destroy it and replace it by something else. On the 224 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 2: other among the people who want to preserve it, they 225 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 2: have shaded off into this lunatic tendency. But basically it's 226 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 2: a line down the middle Republicans Democrats. In Britain, we 227 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:10,959 Speaker 2: don't have that line. It's not a line down the middle. 228 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 2: It's more a kind of diagonal line. The entire system 229 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 2: has slid, nobody has got it, and so we see 230 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 2: the arrival the emergence of a populist party reform led 231 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 2: by a extremely charismatic politician called Nigel Farage, who at 232 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 2: the moment is leading the polls amazingly in a two 233 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 2: party a very very strong two party system. According to 234 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 2: the polls, he become Prime minister. There's an election today. 235 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 2: I don't think that's going to happen, But anyway, that's 236 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 2: not the point. The point is that he's come from 237 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 2: nowhere because basically the British public has lost faith in 238 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 2: the entire political system. Now in America, I don't think 239 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 2: you have that. I think you have a division, a 240 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 2: very sharp division. So it's a different kind of situation. 241 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 2: But basically, can servatism has lost the plot for many, 242 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 2: many years, and that's why we are where we are. 243 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: The Pen Dragon Cycle Rise to the Merlin is the 244 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: newest original series from The Daily Wire, an epic seven 245 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: part adaptation of Stephen R. Lawhead's acclaimed novels. I've watched 246 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: the trailers and they are truly breathtaking. This isn't just 247 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: another fantasy show. It's a sweeping story of belief, redemption, 248 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: and the origins of Western civilization, told through a bold 249 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: retelling of the Arthurian legend. The Pen Dragon Cycle Rise 250 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: to the Merlin premieres January twenty second, exclusively on Daily 251 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: Wire Plus, watch the new trailer and out at Pendragon 252 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: Series dot com. Well, I really appreciate the deeply false manser. 253 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: And again, folks, Melani Phillips, you fought Melanie on X 254 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: at Melanie Latest. She also has a substack crent new 255 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: book which I hold in my hand, The Builder Stone, 256 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: How Jews and Christians built the West and why only 257 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: they can save it. I very strongly do recommend it. 258 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: I spend the number of Shabots Jewish shabbitz reading it myself. 259 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: So Melanie, I there's lots of compact there. To be clear, 260 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: I'm not sure we have time for all of it. 261 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: But one thing that you said that deeply resonate with 262 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: me was this quip about Margaret Thatcher during the nineteen eighties, 263 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: talking about this well run department store and how that 264 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: could or could not solve solve all of our problems. 265 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: And this is something that I've been very critical of 266 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: on this side of the pond as well in my 267 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: own capacity. Is this notion that that conservatism is really 268 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: just interchangeable with classical liberalism, and that that that that 269 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: free markets could solve each and every one of our 270 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: problems the world over, that there is no solution for 271 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: which simply deregulating and cutting taxes is not merely necessary, 272 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: but is actually sufficient. I've been extraordinarily critical of of 273 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: this myself because it seems to me and I don't 274 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: need to I certainly don't need to describe this to 275 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: a well known British conservative commentator. But going back to 276 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: to and Burk himself in so many great conservative statesmen, 277 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: oftentimes from your side the pond, it seems to be 278 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: that the that the that the essence of conservatism is 279 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: this notion that we exist to conserve, as its name 280 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: would imply, and to therefore culturally preserve, as Burke would 281 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: have described it, in this social compact between the dead, 282 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: the living, and the yet unborn. And that raises then 283 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,479 Speaker 1: the obvious question as to what exactly are we conserving there. 284 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of ways to answer this question, 285 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: but I think you and I would both agree that 286 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: it really does ultimately start with the Bible. And this 287 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: is itself something of a contentious point, because you do 288 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: have some folks here, at least on this side of 289 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 1: the pond. Do you name some of them, folks like 290 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,120 Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson and so forth, who are trying to essentially 291 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: write the original people of the book, that is to say, 292 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: the Jewish people out of the story, out of the 293 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,880 Speaker 1: story of the United States of America, and by extension, 294 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 1: out of the story of Western civilization. There's essentially an 295 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: attempt in information operation to get rid of the Judeo 296 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 1: from the Judeo Christian in the popular term has been 297 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: used in the United States for many decades now. Now 298 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:53,640 Speaker 1: you and I both push back on this very strongly 299 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: in our in our respective books. There I'm wondering if 300 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: if you could just present that argument in very forthright 301 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 1: Fams what is the unique contribute To be clear, we 302 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: could speak for hours about this, but perhaps in more 303 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: succinct fashion, what is the most forthright to the point 304 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: case for the unique contributions of the original people of 305 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: the book, the break tradition where generally the Torah and 306 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 1: all that that entails. 307 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 2: Indeed, it's a tremendously important point, not least because so 308 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 2: few people really understand it, even people who are sympathetic 309 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 2: to the Jewish people really don't understand it. The point 310 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 2: being the absolutely key importance and significance of Judaism to 311 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 2: the development of the West and to the values that 312 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 2: everybody holds deer or people who are civilized hold deer. 313 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 2: I mean, it's such a thing in the West that 314 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 2: you know, in one compartment is religion, and that stands 315 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 2: for all bad things, you know, people who don't have education, 316 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 2: people who are irrational, they're superstitious, authoritarian, And in the 317 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 2: other box is all good things. And that is set. 318 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 2: It's rationality, it's reason, it's science, its progress. And this 319 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 2: couldn't be more wrong because it wasn't the Greeks and 320 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 2: it wasn't imprinted in our DNA as universal values, the 321 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 2: values that everybody who is civilized in the West holds dear, 322 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 2: whether they're secular or religious, are Jewish values. Okay, Christianity 323 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 2: is the foundational creed of the West, but Christianity doesn't 324 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 2: come from nowhere, and the principles that animate the West, 325 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 2: which were brought into the West through Christian Church, are 326 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 2: basically Jewish values. What do I mean by that? They're 327 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,120 Speaker 2: moral values. They are the values that people take for granted. 328 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 2: The idea that we all have should have respect for 329 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 2: every human life. Well, that's only because we believe, or 330 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 2: the Bible tells us that every human being was made 331 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 2: in the image of God. If you don't believe that, 332 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 2: you don't respect every human being. The idea of personal 333 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 2: freedom and political freedom, this is something that's not fully understood. 334 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,239 Speaker 2: I mean people understand if they think about it, that 335 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 2: you know, from the Mosaic Code in the Hebrew Bible, 336 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 2: mediated through Christianity, we have things like compassion and putting 337 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 2: other people first and stuff like that, and moral taking, 338 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 2: moral responsibility. These are vital to the West. Without that, 339 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 2: the West wouldn't have been the moral and therefore the 340 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 2: civilizational force that it became. But what people don't fully 341 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 2: understand is that there was something else that was terribly important, 342 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,919 Speaker 2: which was that the principles of that animated the people 343 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 2: in the eighteenth century Christian evangelicals, the Puritans, who were 344 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 2: the people who are political thinkers in Britain, and they 345 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 2: basically laid down the template for what became in due 346 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 2: course Britain's constitutional monarchy. It was where the power of 347 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 2: the monarch and the church were constrained by the democratic 348 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 2: institution of parliament. Now that arose in Britain because those thinkers, 349 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 2: those eighteenth century evangelicals, drew explicitly on the Hebrew Bible 350 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 2: and on the example of the Davidic monarchy in ancient Israel, 351 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 2: which had certain key principles, of which perhaps the most 352 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 2: important were two. First of all was the idea that 353 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 2: law which governs everybody was not something to be handed 354 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 2: down by a ruler and imposed against everyone's will to 355 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 2: make everyone do what the ruler wanted. Law. In the 356 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 2: example of the Hebrew Bible and the ancient Kingdom of Israel, 357 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 2: law was founded in the consent of the people. Going 358 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 2: back right to the point where Moses came down the 359 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 2: mountain and said to the people, here's the law. What 360 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 2: do you think, will you do it? And they said, 361 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 2: we will do and we will hear. And this idea 362 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 2: that law had to have the consent of all the 363 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 2: people is absolutely fundamental to modern democratic representative democracy, and 364 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 2: it was revolutionary at the time it was given to 365 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 2: the West by the Jews. That was the first really 366 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 2: important point. The second equally important point was the idea 367 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 2: of limited government. Okay, there were plenty of monarchs kings 368 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 2: in ancient Israel who were dreadful tyrants and you know, ghastly, 369 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 2: but the template was limited government that the kings of 370 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 2: ancient Israel understood, or should have understood, that above them 371 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 2: was the Almighty. They were not the supreme ruler. I mean, 372 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 2: in ancient civilizations, the ruler was supreme. Nobody was above 373 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 2: the ruler. The ancient kings of Israel believed that above 374 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 2: them was the Almighty, and they were in turn surrounded 375 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 2: at their level by people who constrained their power, people 376 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 2: called prophets, people called judges, and people call priests. Now 377 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 2: that principle also was understood by the framers of British 378 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 2: parliamentary democracy. This idea of limited government, and the idea 379 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 2: that again in the King David did this. You basically 380 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 2: unite what would otherwise be warring tribes into a united kingdom. 381 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 2: These were revolutionary concepts, and those people in Britain who 382 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 2: produced the template for what became Britain's parliamentary democracy went 383 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 2: to America, founded America and founded your constitution. And you know, 384 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 2: American constitutional documents are absolutely studied with the explicit references 385 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 2: to the Hebrew Bible. So the importance of Judaism to 386 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 2: the development of America and the development of the West 387 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 2: cannot be overestimated. That's ancient Israel and ancient Judaism or 388 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 2: Judaism from ancient. 389 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: Times extraordinarily, Will argued again. Melanie Phillips is the author, 390 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: most recently of the book that I hold in my hand, 391 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: The Builderstone, How Jews and Christians built the West and 392 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:14,719 Speaker 1: why only they can save it availble everywhere books are purchased. Melanie, 393 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: I'm gonna play Devil's advocate for just a moment's here, 394 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: and then perhaps we'll move on to more contemporary political issues, 395 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: of which I would love your opinion on some of 396 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: them as well. And the Devil's Adam. The question is 397 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 1: essentially this, Let's say hypothetically that I am sympathetic to 398 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson's arguments here. And one of the reasons that 399 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 1: I'm sympathetic is because, although, let's conceive the sake of 400 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 1: argument that Genesis one twenty seven, Deuteronomy seventeen, which you're 401 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: kind of alluding to, this notion that the ancient kings 402 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 1: in Israel had to write Taurus roll because they are 403 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: bound to off, let's kind of stimulate, just for the 404 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 1: sake of argument, that all of these things are really 405 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: important for Western civilization. You know, wink, wink, nudge, nudge, 406 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 1: They're really, really, really important. Okay, back to the hypothetical, 407 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: Let's say that I agree that they're important, but I 408 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: don't think that the jew Which people themselves, are necessary 409 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: anymore because Christianity itself has existed for two millennia. Now, 410 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 1: so what do we still need this Jewish Christian alliance? 411 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: What do we still need this alliance between the United 412 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: States and Israel and so forth there? How do you 413 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 1: respond to that particular, that particular objection, let's call it. 414 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 2: First of all, Jews are Judaism is still necessary as 415 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 2: the underpinning the moral scaffolding of the West, even though 416 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 2: the West doesn't realize this. It is if Judaism were 417 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 2: not to exist anymore, Christianity would quite quickly implode, and 418 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 2: the West would follow suit. If you take away the scaffolding, 419 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 2: the whole structure collapses. But that's in the kind of realm, 420 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 2: of kind of the abstract thinking. More pertinently, perhaps for 421 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 2: the Tucker Carlsons of this world, the Jews are vital 422 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:57,719 Speaker 2: today in Israel, the very country which he thinks is 423 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 2: dragging America into pointless wars which are not in America's 424 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 2: interest and from which America gets nothing. It could not 425 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 2: be more the other way around. First of all, in 426 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 2: military terms, as successive American administrations have fully understood, Israel 427 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 2: is the It's what's it called, you know, the the 428 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 2: the the aircraft carrier, America's aircraft carrier in the Middle East. 429 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 2: It is the forward salient. It's the forward troop carrier 430 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 2: of the defense of the West against the Islamic world. 431 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 2: If Israel weren't there, the Islamic world would have no 432 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 2: barrier between it and the West. I e America. That's 433 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 2: the first thing. The second thing is that America, like Britain, 434 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 2: unlike other countries which currently disdain Israel and are hostile 435 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 2: to it. America gains an enormous amount from Israel, far 436 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 2: more than it gives. Now that may see, aren't contentious. 437 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 2: But America relies, as does Britain, to a very great degree, 438 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 2: on Israeli intelligence, Israeli military intelligence about the region, and 439 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 2: not just about the region, but increasingly about Islamic extremism 440 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 2: and terrorism that has come already planted itself in America 441 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 2: to as a result of the negligence of successive American administrations. 442 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 2: And I would say British administrations too. But Israel has 443 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 2: the intelligence about this, or about a lot of this, 444 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 2: and America needs that. The next thing to say is that, 445 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 2: you know the famous figure or the famous argument that 446 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 2: America basically funds through billions of dollars every year Israeli 447 00:27:54,160 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 2: military equipment and song and you know this is just, 448 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 2: you know, a drain on America's resources for what, well, 449 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 2: this is completely untrue. I forget now the precise figure, 450 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 2: but it's something like America gains something like more than 451 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 2: one thousand times the value in terms of arms productions, 452 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 2: and heaven knows what else that goes on in America 453 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,360 Speaker 2: as a result of this relationship which in which America 454 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 2: pays whatever it is, thirteen billion, whatever it is I 455 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 2: can't remember, and gets back in effect a vast amount. 456 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 2: More so, these things are tremendously important. And the last 457 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 2: thing to say is that far from dragging America into 458 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 2: fighting foreign wars, and you know, our boys are gonna 459 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 2: die for what for our cause in which we have 460 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 2: no skin in the game. This is obscene. It is 461 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:02,719 Speaker 2: Israeli boys and girls who have been dying to protect America. 462 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 2: It is against you know, a Israel A has been 463 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 2: fighting a desperate existential war of defense against basically Iran 464 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 2: and its proxies. Iran. I mean, I don't know whether 465 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 2: people like Tucker Carlson even know about this, but Iran. 466 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 2: When the Iranian regime came to power in whenever it was, 467 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 2: seventeen nine, was it, it declared war immediately on America 468 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 2: and subsequently, in all the decades since then, it has 469 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 2: attacked American interests over and over again, American military basis 470 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 2: over and over again through its proxies. But it's basically 471 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 2: Iran and has caused the deaths of countless numbers of 472 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 2: American and other coalition forces in Iraq. Through roadside bombs 473 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 2: they provided, and so on. Now it's a bit of 474 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 2: a mystery to me why over all this time America 475 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 2: and the West did not respond as any normal, sane 476 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 2: society would have done to being under attack in this 477 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 2: way and basically fought back. But it didn't. Okay, But nevertheless, 478 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 2: it's been under attack all this time America. Iran has 479 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 2: made no secret of its continuing ambition and aim to 480 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,239 Speaker 2: destroy America and the West. It has said over and 481 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 2: over again that it regards it as essential to destroy 482 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 2: Israel first, to kill the Jews first, because then it 483 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 2: thinks that the way will be open to destroy, to 484 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 2: attack and destroy America and the West, not least because 485 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 2: the Iranian regime believes that behind that, like other Islamists, 486 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 2: people who wish to inflict or impose Islam upon the 487 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 2: rest of the world, they believe that there may foe 488 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 2: is Western modernity, and they believe that behind Western modernity 489 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 2: is the Jews. They're not entirely wrong, and they believe 490 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,959 Speaker 2: therefore that in order to defeat Western modernity, they first 491 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 2: have to defeat the Jews and the nation state of Israel, 492 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 2: the Jewish nation state of Israel, and then the way 493 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 2: will be open to attack and defeat America. So even 494 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 2: if the Tucker Carsons of this world really loathe them, 495 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 2: detest Jews, which clearly they do, and think they're of 496 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 2: no value to humanity, nevertheless they are demonstrably vital to 497 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 2: American interests. And in this war of the last two years, 498 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 2: it's been Israeli boys and girls in the Israeli Defense 499 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 2: Forces who have been fighting Iran and its proxies and 500 00:31:55,240 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 2: dying and getting terribly injured, taking the heat in order 501 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 2: to enable Israel to survive, for sure, but also serving 502 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 2: as the essential defense for America. It's not American boys 503 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 2: who are dying for Israel. It's Israeli boys who've been 504 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 2: dying for America. 505 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: You know, as is often said, Melanie, you go to 506 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: the Saturday people first, and then and then to the 507 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: Sunday people. This is kind of one of those axioms 508 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: of history. One of my favorite examples to bear this 509 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: out is is Karl Marx himself, right, I mean Karl 510 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: Marx in the Communist Manifesto he in angles. They lay 511 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: out this comprehensive assault on Kristin Doman and Western capitalism. 512 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: Of you, if you go back a few years prior 513 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: to the Communist Manifesto, there is a deeply anti Semitic 514 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: treatise that Karl Marx pens on the Jewish question, because 515 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: even he understood, you cut to the source, you cut 516 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: to the scaffolding, as you say, before you actually get 517 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: to the broader entity. And I couldn't agree with you 518 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: more strongly that a lot, that a lot of these provocateurs, 519 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: both left and right, because certainly do well to understand 520 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: this most rudimentary of concepts. But while while I have you, Melanie, 521 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: I want to go on a related topic, kind of 522 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: going more into into contemporary discourse, even outside the realm 523 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: of foreign policy, because we're talking here, among other things, 524 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: about the threat of radical Islam at jihad, about the 525 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: threat of jihadism and s Trea supremacism. And one of 526 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: the things that becomes more obvious here by the day, 527 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: it certainly becomes very obvious from a British perspective, by 528 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: the day, by the month, by the year as well, 529 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: is the the the ever thorny question, if we can 530 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: even call it an unresolved question at this point, as 531 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: to whether or not Islam and Western civilization are are 532 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 1: broadly speaking compatible. This is something that my tragically assassinated 533 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: late friend Charlie Kirk was adamant about in the final 534 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: year or two of his life. He was arguing bothciferously 535 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: that that Islam and Western civilization and the United States specifically, 536 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 1: where broadly speaking not compatible. And Melanie, have to be 537 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 1: honest with you. I know you're you're British. I studied 538 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: and I did a college semester of studying it at 539 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: UCL University College London, right in the heart of London 540 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: in two thousand and nine. I have such fond memories. 541 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: I've not been back to London since then. I'm frankly 542 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: terrified to go because I think I'll barely recognize the place. 543 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: So whether but whether it's the images we see of 544 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: the streets of London, Paris, Brussels, this horrific recent massacre 545 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: on the beach, and Bandai Beach and Sydney, Australia, there 546 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 1: are all sorts of incidents here in the United States. 547 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: I don't want to get too dire, but you're kind 548 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 1: of the right person to kind of turn this question to. 549 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 1: And I guess the question is is as follows, speaking 550 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: here necessarily about hard jihad but about soft, surreptitious forms 551 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 1: of jihad, about jihad via immigration, there's actually a whole 552 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,840 Speaker 1: kind of obscure Islamic doctrine on exactly that actually on 553 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: kind of a softer form of spreading the message. I 554 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: guess the question is this is is Western civilization salvageable 555 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 1: or are we so far down the rabbit hole not 556 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,439 Speaker 1: just of the declining Church, not just of decline religiosity, 557 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: but just from a purely kind of multiculturalist perspective. Can 558 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,760 Speaker 1: we actually undo Pandora's box this point. 559 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 2: It's a very a good question. I'm my own view, 560 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 2: and call me hopelessly optimistic. It's never over till it's over. 561 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 2: The West hasn't begun to fight this, It hasn't even 562 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 2: begun to acknowledge what it's up against. It refuses to 563 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 2: do so. So if it carries on in this way, 564 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,720 Speaker 2: the West is finished. And Islam will indeed colonize, finish 565 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 2: colonizing Britain and Europe. And I'm afraid America in due course, 566 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:32,240 Speaker 2: more slowly, more difficultily, perhaps, but that's the way it's going. 567 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 2: Can it do it? Yes? It can. The problem has 568 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 2: been too, has been has been a double headed problem. 569 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 2: The Islamists, who are not stupid, and the Islamists, by 570 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 2: which I mean Muslims who wish to take over the 571 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 2: world for Islam. They understood a long time ago what 572 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 2: the West never understood, which is that of a culture 573 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 2: of society, a civilization destroys its religious scaffolding. It's finished. 574 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 2: It no longer will know what it is, it will 575 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 2: no longer even like what it is. It will no 576 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,359 Speaker 2: longer be pare to defend what it is, it will 577 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 2: no longer even understand what's happening to it. And it 578 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 2: understood that Britain was very forefront of this. Britain is 579 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 2: the most most advanced post religious nation, I would say, 580 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,320 Speaker 2: in the West, and it honed in on Britain. Britain 581 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 2: was where al Qaeda was formed, because Britain was the 582 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 2: most hospitable to Jihadis who Britain said, let them all in, 583 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,240 Speaker 2: let them all in. It's multiculturalism, they're fine. We cannot 584 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,879 Speaker 2: possibly oppose them because that's racism and Islamophobia and all 585 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 2: the rest of it. But nevertheless, this process happened, has 586 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 2: happened across Europe, and it's happening more slowly but certainly 587 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 2: surely in America too. So it is salvagible because in 588 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 2: this sense that it's happened because there was never a 589 00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 2: fight put up by the West. The West basically said, 590 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 2: we can't assert the superiority of our values and our 591 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 2: culture over Islam, or over any other society because any 592 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 2: other minority in our midst because that's racism. Now, every 593 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,840 Speaker 2: single minority except for one, has understood that the bargain 594 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 2: from the eighteenth century, from when modernity started, from when 595 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 2: tolerance was invented, from when church and state were separated. 596 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,400 Speaker 2: In the West, the understanding has been that the or 597 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 2: Western civilization will tolerate minorities. It will say, you're welcome 598 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 2: to form communities of faith and communities of culture, provided 599 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 2: you uphold the core values of our society. We can 600 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 2: all discuss what the core values are, but I would 601 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,240 Speaker 2: say one core value is the equality of women. Another 602 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 2: core value, even more core than that, is the idea 603 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 2: that the entire society is governed by one law for all. Now, 604 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:10,359 Speaker 2: the problem has been that there's a very very significant 605 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 2: number of Muslims who came into Britain and Europe who 606 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 2: and now America, who do not accept that, who say 607 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 2: that there can be no superior authority to Sharia law, 608 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,759 Speaker 2: Islamic law, because Islamic law, Sharia law is the word 609 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 2: of God, and consequently we do not accept any secular 610 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,319 Speaker 2: authority above it. Now, I think it's very important to 611 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 2: say that in Britain and in the rest of the West, 612 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 2: there are many many Muslims who don't agree with that, 613 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 2: who have genuinely signed up to Western values, who live 614 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 2: in the West because they value equality and freedom and 615 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 2: all the good things that the West provides. But there 616 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 2: is a huge, let's say a minority, but it is 617 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,359 Speaker 2: vast who don't sign up to those things and who 618 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 2: have set out to conquer the West. Now that you 619 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 2: talk about ji Had, it is the jihad she Had 620 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 2: is simply Islamic holy war to take over the non 621 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 2: Islamic world for Islam. But it takes different forms, and 622 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 2: they're not stupid. The Islamists. In some circumstances, they will 623 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,279 Speaker 2: use force, they will use intimidation, they will use terrorism 624 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 2: in order to terrorize, in order to help subjugate people 625 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 2: through terror. But they will also use and they have used, 626 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,879 Speaker 2: particularly through the Muslim Brotherhood, they will use the most 627 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 2: devastating weapon of all, which is, as you implied or 628 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,799 Speaker 2: you suggested, a kind of soft g had which is 629 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 2: actually not soft at all. It is basically cultural takeover. 630 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,319 Speaker 2: It is where they use the openness and the democratic 631 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 2: institutions of Western societies to infiltrate them and subvert them 632 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:52,759 Speaker 2: from inside. And it's like the frog being boiled in 633 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 2: the pot so slowly and so gently. The frog has 634 00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 2: no idea that it's being boiled until it's dead. And 635 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 2: that is what has been happening. And so now you 636 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 2: have this process has advanced to a very great extent. 637 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,600 Speaker 2: And even now, I mean you talk about the terrible 638 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:16,239 Speaker 2: atrocity at Bondai Beach. I read just today was it 639 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,719 Speaker 2: or yesterday various people in Australia. I think it was 640 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:25,840 Speaker 2: a correspondent for the ABC News and I think it 641 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 2: was one of their ministers saying or possibly in the 642 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,719 Speaker 2: prime minister saying that what happened at Bondai Beach had 643 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 2: nothing to do with Islam, nothing to do with religion. 644 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,359 Speaker 2: I mean, what do they think it was? You know, 645 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 2: these people were murdered for veganism. I mean, what are 646 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,120 Speaker 2: they talking about? And this has been the case in Britain. 647 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,320 Speaker 2: They will not accept that it's founded in the religion 648 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 2: because they think that. And it comes back to the 649 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 2: very first question you are are asked. That would mean that, 650 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,840 Speaker 2: you know, we demonize all Muslims and we demonize Islam. 651 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,360 Speaker 2: Now this has to be picked aside a part very carefully. 652 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 2: One should not demonize all Muslims, as I've said, there 653 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 2: are many Muslims who are not signed up to this. 654 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,319 Speaker 2: But to argue that what we are living through, that 655 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:17,759 Speaker 2: she had both terrorism and democratic infiltration and subversion. To 656 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 2: say that that is not being done in the name 657 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:24,240 Speaker 2: of Islam, and to say that it's not being done 658 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:30,160 Speaker 2: in accordance, in strict accordance with the precepts of every 659 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:37,759 Speaker 2: jurisprudential authority in Islam is simply a lie, and it 660 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,759 Speaker 2: is a suicidal lie from the point of view of 661 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,080 Speaker 2: the West. So you know the question you ask originally, 662 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:54,280 Speaker 2: is Islam compatible with Western civilization? For sure? Radical Islam 663 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:59,000 Speaker 2: is not compatible. By radical Islam, I mean the understanding 664 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,840 Speaker 2: the interpretation the religion which says it is a religious 665 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 2: duty on all Muslims to make the non Islamic world 666 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:15,280 Speaker 2: and the not Islamic enough world Islamic. Now that is clearly, demonstrably, 667 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:21,480 Speaker 2: unarguably incompatible with Western civilization, and that is what we 668 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:26,399 Speaker 2: collectively in the West have harbored. So you know, yes, 669 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:30,239 Speaker 2: there are Muslims who, you know, they get a spiritual 670 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:36,280 Speaker 2: and moral uplift from their Islamic faith. Fine, but an 671 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 2: awful lot understand Islam to be as much a political 672 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:47,160 Speaker 2: ideology as it is what as it is a communion 673 00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,840 Speaker 2: with the divine, which is how the West thinks of religion. 674 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 2: The West has a very Western idea of religion. It 675 00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 2: is a communication between the individual and the Almighty, and 676 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,320 Speaker 2: that's fine. If Muslims wish to interpret it in that way, 677 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 2: that's great. And if they find you know, uplifting and 678 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:13,759 Speaker 2: positive and constructive moral principles from their faith, fine, no 679 00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,719 Speaker 2: one's going to object to that. The problem is the 680 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 2: understanding of Islam, which is rooted in the theology that 681 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:26,400 Speaker 2: it is simultaneously a political ideology of conquest and domination 682 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,600 Speaker 2: and war, and that, I'm afraid is its history, and 683 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:31,759 Speaker 2: that is unarguable. 684 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:36,280 Speaker 1: Very well said as always Melanie Phillips, So one fun time, folks. 685 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,480 Speaker 1: Melanie Phillips is a calmness for the times of London. 686 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:40,800 Speaker 1: She's also the author of The Builderstone, How Jews and 687 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,920 Speaker 1: Christians built the West and why only they can save it. 688 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,359 Speaker 1: It's a wonderful book. I strongly encourage it to all 689 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 1: of you out there. Melanie has been a real pleasure. 690 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:50,319 Speaker 1: Thank you for all you've been doing for a very 691 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 1: long time now which you may be lated. Happy Hannagh 692 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:54,839 Speaker 1: and hope to chavel with you again sometime soon. 693 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,120 Speaker 2: Happy Hannakha to you, and thank you so much for 694 00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:57,600 Speaker 2: your time. 695 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 1: You better thank you as always for watching the Dosh 696 00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 1: Hamershire