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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Just think about the question, am I living in as

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Speaker 2: sincerely as I can tell a surrendered state before God,

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Speaker 2: or as my drinking callersed a few inconveniences, and I'm

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Speaker 2: trying to use God to take away the desire so

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Speaker 2: that I don't actually have to rearrange my life around

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Speaker 2: steps that I don't want to take.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Love Life Sober. I'm your host and your coach,

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Speaker 3: Christy Osborne. This podcast is for the woman who loves

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Speaker 3: Jesus or as longing to reconnect with Him, and who

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Speaker 3: knows deep down that alcohol is no longer serving her.

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Speaker 3: Here we talk honestly, with grace and truth about how

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Speaker 3: stepping away from alcohol opens the door to the love, joy, peace,

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Speaker 3: and connection you've been searching for. Because, Babe, those things

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Speaker 3: were never meant to be found in a bottle of wine.

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Speaker 4: They're found in Jesus.

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Speaker 3: Through scripture, coaching and neuroscience, I'll help you make sense

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Speaker 3: of your habits, your nervous system, and what you're really

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Speaker 3: craving so that freedom feels not only possible but sustainable.

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Speaker 3: You don't have to do this alone, Babe, Let's dive in. Hey, Babe,

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to the podcast. I am genuinely so excited

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Speaker 3: for today's conversation because I think this episode is going

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Speaker 3: to challenge, encourage, and maybe even completely reframe the way

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Speaker 3: some of you.

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Speaker 4: Think about the Twelve Steps.

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Speaker 3: In my own journey to freedom from alcohol, I never

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Speaker 3: intentionally worked the Twelve Steps, or at least I didn't

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Speaker 3: think I had, and honestly, I was really hesitant to

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Speaker 3: spend much time researching them because of their ties to

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Speaker 3: alcoholics anonymous. I struggled to understand how a framework that

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Speaker 3: allowed people to define quote God as we understand him

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Speaker 3: unquote could truly be biblical, or how it could really

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Speaker 3: help me. What I didn't realize at the time was

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Speaker 3: that many of the principles woven through the twelve Steps,

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Speaker 3: things like surrender, confession, self examination, relying on God daily,

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Speaker 3: and renewing your mind, are actually obviously deeply rooted in scripture,

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Speaker 3: and in many ways God had already been walking me

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Speaker 3: through the very things without me even realizing it. So

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Speaker 3: when people first started recommending Steps by John Orberg to

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Speaker 3: me last year, I was honestly super hesitant. But after

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Speaker 3: the fifth or sixth person recommended the book to me,

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Speaker 3: I finally thought, Okay, Lord, I will pay attention, and

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Speaker 3: I'm so glad I did, because John helped me see

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Speaker 3: the Steps in a completely different light, not as some

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Speaker 3: hopeless declaration that you'll always be broken, but as a

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Speaker 3: pathway with biblical roots that might just help us on

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Speaker 3: our journey to freedom from alcohol. Now, if some of

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Speaker 3: you are not familiar with John Orberg, he is a pastor,

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Speaker 3: an author, a speaker, and a teacher whose work has

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Speaker 3: shaped so much of the modern conversation around spiritual formation.

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Speaker 3: He studied at Wheaton College and earned both his master's

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Speaker 3: in Divinity and PhD in clinical psychology from Fuller Theological Seminary,

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Speaker 3: and today he leads Become New, a ministry focused on

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Speaker 3: helping people grow spiritually one day at a time through

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Speaker 3: daily teaching and community. In his book Steps Which Were

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Speaker 3: Going to Talk About Today, John explores the biblical and

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Speaker 3: transformational roots of the Twelve Steps and why embracing our

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Speaker 3: inadequacy is often the very thing that opens the door

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Speaker 3: to spiritual renewal. In today's conversation, John explains how the

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Speaker 3: Twelve Steps were actually born out of Christian discipleship, why

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Speaker 3: he believes the church desperately needs them back, and why

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Speaker 3: practices like confession, have it, change, self awareness, and renewing

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Speaker 3: your mind aren't just for people struggling with alcohol, but

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Speaker 3: for anyone who wants to follow Jesus more fully. If

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Speaker 3: you've ever thought, what does surrender actually mean? Or is

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Speaker 3: the Twelve Steps for me? If I didn't go to AA,

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Speaker 3: then babe, this episode's for you.

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Speaker 4: Let's go.

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Speaker 3: Hey, John, thank you so much for being here on

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Speaker 3: the Love Life Sover podcast. I am so grateful for you. Welcome, Welcome,

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Speaker 3: Thank you for being here.

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Speaker 1: I have been looking.

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Speaker 2: Forward to it and love the work that you were

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Speaker 2: doing and the heart that it involved.

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Speaker 1: So thanks for inviting me into the conversation.

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Speaker 3: Yes, your book was recommended to me by so many people.

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Speaker 3: So the book is Steps. So many of the gals

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Speaker 3: in the community have already read it. We at some

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Speaker 3: point will do a book club and go through this

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Speaker 3: book chapter by chapter in the community. I'm not gonna lie.

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Speaker 3: I was really hesitant at first to read it. Not

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Speaker 3: because I don't love your wisdom and respect you so much,

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Speaker 3: but I was really hesitant with reading a book on

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Speaker 3: the steps because when I started my own personal journey

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Speaker 3: to freedom from alcohol, I had them so related with

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Speaker 3: the current AA model, which everything that I heard was

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Speaker 3: that it was so anti God, and everything that I

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Speaker 3: heard was that it was about praying to doorknobs, and

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Speaker 3: everything that I heard was it was new age and

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Speaker 3: you had to admit to having this disease and you're

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Speaker 3: going to have this disease for the rest of your life.

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Speaker 3: In my first few months of sobriety, I came across

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Speaker 3: Second Corinthians twelve nine, and I was like, I am

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Speaker 3: not powerless. I am powerful because he is going to

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Speaker 3: work in me, in my weakness. And then when I

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Speaker 3: dug into your book, when my brother in law and

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Speaker 3: everyone was just like Christy, no, just open it and

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Speaker 3: read it. And I was like, oh, he is saying

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Speaker 3: exactly what I was feeling and praying. I just didn't

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Speaker 3: know that I had been going through these steps. I

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Speaker 3: went through them probably backwards and upside down. So will

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Speaker 3: you just speak to a little bit because I know

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Speaker 3: there are a lot of Christian women who don't know

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Speaker 3: the origins of the twelve Steps. So for the gals

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Speaker 3: that don't know, will you please do a little bit

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Speaker 3: of the background of them and then why they're so important,

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Speaker 3: not just for women, struggling with alcohol or whatever addiction.

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Speaker 3: But for all of us on a sanctification journey.

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Speaker 2: You know, I think one of the great needs in

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Speaker 2: our day that we're looking for is what does it

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Speaker 2: actually mean to be a disciple? And that the New

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Speaker 2: Testament is actually the word Christian only occurs three times

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Speaker 2: in it. Disciple is there are two hundred and sixty

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Speaker 2: million times say book by Disciples for disciples about disciples.

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Speaker 2: But then you have to ask the question, well, what's

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Speaker 2: a way of life that can enable me to live

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Speaker 2: as a disciple of Jesus?

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Speaker 1: Because I have to get real and concrete with it.

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Speaker 2: So it can't be legalistic, it can't be random, can't

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Speaker 2: be superficial, but it's got to be tangible and actionable.

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Speaker 2: And it turns out about one hundred years ago there

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Speaker 2: was a ministry called the Oxford Group.

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Speaker 1: It was a.

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Speaker 2: Fellowship of folks, cross denominations and churches of people in

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Speaker 2: then the twentieth century who are trying to make discipleship

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Speaker 2: to Jesus accessible and real for ordinary Christians. And so

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Speaker 2: they took very seriously then different practices like coming to faith,

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Speaker 2: surrendering my life and my will, doing a real serious

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Speaker 2: process of self examination, confessing to other people, asking God

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Speaker 2: to change my habits, seeking guidance, being immersed in scripture.

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Speaker 2: And what happened was there was a guy named Bill W.

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Speaker 2: And one day after he was in utter despair at

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Speaker 2: the way that alcoholism had defeated him. He had lost jobs,

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Speaker 2: he had been hospitalized three times, he had lost money,

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Speaker 2: lost self respect. He would promise his wife Lois that

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Speaker 2: he was going to stop drinking. He would write it

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Speaker 2: in their family bible. I promised I will never drink again.

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Speaker 2: And then a week or a day later he would

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Speaker 2: be drunk again. And his doctor told his wife Lois

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Speaker 2: that she had three choices. She could have him locked up,

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Speaker 2: she could watch him go insane, or she could just

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Speaker 2: let him die.

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Speaker 1: He knew this to be the truth.

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Speaker 2: And then he got a knock on the door and

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Speaker 2: an old drinking buddy of his name EDBT was sober

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Speaker 2: and invited Bill W into a meeting of one of

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Speaker 2: these Oxford groups. And so Bill W began to go

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Speaker 2: began to actually practice this way of life of putting

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Speaker 2: his trust, of surrendering his will, and he discovered that

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Speaker 2: as he did that the Oxford group was nothing more

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Speaker 2: than an attempt to make discipleship to Jesus accessible in

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Speaker 2: the modern era. As he did that, he discovered that

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Speaker 2: oh as an indirect benefit, he was given the power

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Speaker 2: to live a sober life. Then about six months later,

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Speaker 2: a man by the name of doctor Bob got involved

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Speaker 2: in an Oxford group in Akron, Ohio through his meeting

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Speaker 2: with Bill W. And he was given the power to

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Speaker 2: become sober. And over the next four years, about one

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Speaker 2: hundred people all entered into this way of discipleship to

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Speaker 2: Jesus through the Oxford Group were given the power to

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Speaker 2: be freed from addiction. Eventually, they said, we got to

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Speaker 2: write this down because there's millions of people that are

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Speaker 2: just dying and they desperately need help. Yeah, and so

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Speaker 2: primarily Bill W wrote what they did down and it

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Speaker 2: got kind of semi secularized, and that's.

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Speaker 1: Part of where a lot of controversy will come in.

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Speaker 2: They decided to make it, for better or for worse,

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Speaker 2: something that anybody could enter into to get deliverance from alcohol,

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Speaker 2: whatever their quote unquote religious or theological beliefs were. And

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Speaker 2: so it doesn't name the name of Jesus in the

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Speaker 2: same way that a Christian pastor like myself or like

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Speaker 2: you would. But the main thing is all of those

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Speaker 2: steps were directly taken from discipleship. Kind of the idea

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Speaker 2: of the book is AA got the twelve steps from

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Speaker 2: the church and now the church needs them back.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I've heard you say that, and I think that

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Speaker 3: is so true. And as you were just speaking, I

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Speaker 3: was reminded of listening to you on another podcast quoting

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Speaker 3: Dallas Willard of his vision, intention and as a method,

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Speaker 3: and so this was basically the formula, right, and so yeah,

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Speaker 3: go ahead.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Dallas, for folks who may or may not have heard

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Speaker 2: of him, was a philosopher at University of Southern California.

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Speaker 1: Wonderful Christian girl. Oh is that right?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Oh cool?

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Speaker 2: Well, way to go, go, Judjans yea. And he wrote

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Speaker 2: in one of his books, Renovation of the Heart, about

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Speaker 2: how transformation in any area of life always involves this

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Speaker 2: little acronym that he called vim.

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Speaker 1: First, I must have a vision for how my.

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Speaker 2: Life could be different, and that will elicit desire. I

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Speaker 2: want that, Yeah, And then that needs to lead to

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Speaker 2: intention where I make a decision. And then I have

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Speaker 2: to have wise method or means that's the m to

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Speaker 2: which I can receive the power to become a different

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Speaker 2: kind of person. And yes, Dallas would say that with

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Speaker 2: the twelve steps, the first two steps are really about vision.

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Speaker 2: The first step is the negative aspect of vision. Admitted

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Speaker 2: that we were powerless over alcohol. Whatever the problem is

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Speaker 2: ineneral lives have become unmanageable. That's like, oh, if I

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Speaker 2: don't get help, I'm done, I'm toast, I'm beat. And

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Speaker 2: then the second step is the positive dimension of vision.

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Speaker 2: Came to believe a power greater than ourselves, God, as

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Speaker 2: described by Jesus, could restore us to sanity. So those

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Speaker 2: are the two aspects of vision. Here's my life without God,

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Speaker 2: Here's what lies before me with God. And then the

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Speaker 2: third step is that step of intention, made the decision

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Speaker 2: to turn our will and our lives over to the

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Speaker 2: care of God. Step four through twelve are all about

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Speaker 2: the method that we follow.

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Speaker 4: That's so good.

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Speaker 3: As you were speaking, I was just thinking of some

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Speaker 3: of the gals in our community who I think that

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Speaker 3: is something that we can work on together.

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Speaker 4: Is the vision part of it.

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Speaker 3: So I'm so glad you mentioned that we'll be back

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Speaker 3: right after a quick word from our sponsors. I really

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Speaker 3: want to talk about surrender, But first, can we talk

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Speaker 3: about celebrating personal inadequacy because I think that is so

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Speaker 3: anti our self help culture and you can do it

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Speaker 3: and you got this and as women, we can do

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Speaker 3: it all, have it all, all those things. Why is

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Speaker 3: it so important? Why does it come at the beginning

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Speaker 3: of this journey?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's so interesting Christy. We were talking about,

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Speaker 2: you know that statement that Paul makes to the Church

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Speaker 2: of Corinth, where God says, my grace is sufficient and

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Speaker 2: my strength is made perfect in weakness. And in many ways,

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Speaker 2: I think addiction is a paradoxical gift of God to

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Speaker 2: our world. Yes, because in the twelve step community, they

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Speaker 2: have a thousand sticky sayings for everything because it's you know,

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Speaker 2: life or death, and one of them is they will

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Speaker 2: talk about in step one comes the good gift of desperation,

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Speaker 2: that this first step actually is going to be most

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Speaker 2: effectively taken if it's not just an abstract Yeah, I understand. Theologically,

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Speaker 2: I'm supposed to affirm that I need God. I need

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Speaker 2: to actually feel it unforced depth, and that's what motivates

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Speaker 2: me to pursue the other steps with great intensity. I

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Speaker 2: was talking to somebody who is taught in twelve steps

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Speaker 2: communities for a long time. I don't know that he

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Speaker 2: interestingly would call himself a Christian, but he considers the

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Speaker 2: twelve steps a wisdom tradition, and he said the problem

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Speaker 2: with most wisdom traditions that I would say with most

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Speaker 2: churches is that most people have a wimpy step one,

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Speaker 2: And as long as you have a wimpy step one,

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Speaker 2: you will have a wimpy steps two through twelve. Oh,

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Speaker 2: every money steps you have in your program. And it

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Speaker 2: made me think in our day, people who are interested

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Speaker 2: in the stuff that.

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Speaker 1: I am, like a way of life, rule of life.

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Speaker 2: Spiritual practices, all that kind of stuff, spend lots of

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Speaker 2: time trying to think about what practices should we engage

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Speaker 2: in them and how often and how do we dress

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Speaker 2: them up and make them look attractive? But really the

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Speaker 2: key is a robust step one. When I was thinking

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Speaker 2: about his comment, I thought, the steps themselves are not

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Speaker 2: rocket science, right, you know, surrender, self examination, confession to

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Speaker 2: another person, life of service, prayer. But like, that's the

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Speaker 2: stuff that's always been around. Who tend to be deeply

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Speaker 2: transformed by those steps, while people who have the gift

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Speaker 2: of desperation, addicts, people in prisons, people where the church

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Speaker 2: is under persecution, people in desperate poverty, people who have

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Speaker 2: failed horribly, people who are in great need, depression, anxiety. So, actually,

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Speaker 2: for the folks in your community, Christy, when there's people

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Speaker 2: who are restling with addiction, paradoxically, they have a great gift.

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Speaker 2: They know on my own nine beat and I got

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Speaker 2: to have help from God and I'll do whatever it takes.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that is so good.

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Speaker 3: For a lot of the women listening, they're struggling with

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Speaker 3: this kind of gray area drinking, which is this like

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Speaker 3: like me, too many cocktails on a night out, you know,

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Speaker 3: half a bottle bottle of wine when I'm home and

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Speaker 3: the kids are upstairs, and well, I could have ended

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Speaker 3: up in a park bench, because now I know how

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Speaker 3: this works, right, But at that time, I just.

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Speaker 4: Got to a point.

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Speaker 3: And you also talk about this in the book where

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Speaker 3: I was just sick and tired and sick and tired,

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Speaker 3: and I was ready. But I think when we're talking

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Speaker 3: about life or death and this gift of being desperate

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Speaker 3: for the woman who is like, but John, I'm just like,

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Speaker 3: I don't know if I'm desperate because I'm just drinking

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Speaker 3: like a little too much and maybe I'm not desperate yet.

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Speaker 4: What would you say to her, Well.

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Speaker 2: You can certainly run the experiment and keep going and

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Speaker 2: find out how to desperate get yes, yeah, when you do.

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Speaker 1: Kind of a cost benefits analysis.

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Speaker 2: Now I could enter into this other way of life

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Speaker 2: and stop drinking, or I can keep one in the

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Speaker 2: experiment and seeing maybe I'll never know end up on

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Speaker 2: skid row, maybe I'll never get arrested, or I have

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Speaker 2: a dui or well, yeah, is there a real big

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Speaker 2: upside to continuing to drink if you're not sure right now?

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Speaker 1: And part of what happens to the mind. I think

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Speaker 1: it's so interesting.

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Speaker 2: In the second step, it doesn't say that God will

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Speaker 2: restore us to sobriety.

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Speaker 1: It says, who restore us to sanity?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sanity is the ability to be able to navigate reality,

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Speaker 2: that notion that maybe I can control it. Very often

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Speaker 2: from people creeps into the insanity territory. I remember that

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Speaker 2: there was another guy who talked a lot about the

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Speaker 2: Twelve Steps, and he was a priest, and he said,

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Speaker 2: we'll think of drunk people doing insane things, but that's

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Speaker 2: not really where the insanity comes in.

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Speaker 1: The insanity comes in when.

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Speaker 2: There's an alcoholic who is sober and in that sober

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Speaker 2: state says now I'm going to take another drink. That's

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Speaker 2: the insanity. Yeah, And we're all capable of that. So

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Speaker 2: the other comment I think I would make to that question, Christy,

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Speaker 2: is whether or not you think you have an identified addiction.

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Speaker 2: This is a way of life that came from the

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Speaker 2: church that has been empirically proven. Whatever you think about

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Speaker 2: God or AA or anything else, has been empirically proven,

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Speaker 2: if followed intensely, to be able to deliver people from

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Speaker 2: horrible attachments, horrible enslavements. So why would I not throw

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Speaker 2: myself into this way of life? What good reason would

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Speaker 2: there be for me to say, Nah, I don't think

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Speaker 2: I'll do that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: One you mentioned, you know, sobriety and this journey being

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Speaker 3: our addiction as a gift, and we talked about I'm

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Speaker 3: using our weaknesses.

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Speaker 4: And there are women that talk.

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Speaker 3: To me every day and say, I have been praying

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Speaker 3: for God to take this. I have been praying for

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Speaker 3: him to take the desire to drink away from me,

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Speaker 3: and he is not doing it. And you wrote so

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Speaker 3: beautifully in the book about he might not take it,

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Speaker 3: but he'll use it. He'll use the weakness. And I

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Speaker 3: was just wondering if you could talk a little bit

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Speaker 3: about that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And that does start to move us towards the

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Speaker 2: issue of surrender. And it is really interesting, Christy, because

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Speaker 2: I've thought about spiritual life, spiritual disciplines and so on

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Speaker 2: for a long time. The idea of training as supposed

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Speaker 2: to try and we get power indirectly. I can't stop

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Speaker 2: drinking if I am an alcoholic just by willpower, but

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Speaker 2: I can arrange my life around other things. And lots

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Speaker 2: of growth areas in life are available to people when

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Speaker 2: they recognize this difference of training arranging my life to

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Speaker 2: receive power as opposed to just willpower on trying super hard.

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Speaker 2: People can learn to play the piano that way, or

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Speaker 2: you know, play golf for a garden better or whatever.

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Speaker 2: What's interesting with addiction is in addition to that, I

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Speaker 2: must surrender my will. I think if I'm saying, oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm a little embarrassed by my drinking, I'm doing a

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Speaker 2: little bit too much.

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Speaker 1: It's making me put on a little bit of weight.

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Speaker 2: I feel a little guilty sometimes, so I'd like for

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Speaker 2: God to take it away. I can end up trying

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Speaker 2: to use God, yes, rather than serve God, and he

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Speaker 2: becomes a kind of a tool or a kind of

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Speaker 2: a resource. And of course a relationship with God does

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Speaker 2: not work that way. Part of what's really important with God,

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Speaker 2: and this is part of what Jesus taught real clearly

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Speaker 2: that AA doesn't always clearly teaches. God is not a

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Speaker 2: force that I can use to get the outcome.

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Speaker 1: That I want.

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Speaker 2: He is a person to be in a relationship him

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Speaker 2: is like being in a relationship with another person where

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Speaker 2: I have to I can't use another person, and especially

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Speaker 2: I can't use God. So I'd probably want to reflect

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Speaker 2: if I was talking with a friend with a woman

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Speaker 2: who was asking God to take the desire away, to

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Speaker 2: just think about the question, am I living in as

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Speaker 2: sincerely as I can tell a surrendered state before God?

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Speaker 2: Or has my drinking caused a few inconveniences? And I'm

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Speaker 2: trying to use God to take away the desire so

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Speaker 2: that I don't actually have to rearrange my life around

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Speaker 2: steps that I don't want to take.

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Speaker 4: Yep, you know.

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Speaker 2: The other piece to that would be is, okay, well

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Speaker 2: let's go through the twelve steps then, which one is

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Speaker 2: it that you'd like to tell God you don't want

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Speaker 2: to do? Do you not want to surrender? Do you

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Speaker 2: not want to fully examine your life? Do you not

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Speaker 2: want to confess before God yourself and another person? Do

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Speaker 2: you not want to ask God to take away your

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Speaker 2: character defects? Do you not want to make amends the

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Speaker 2: people that you've harmed? Tell me which step it is

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Speaker 2: that you've decided you'd rather take a pass on.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, And I pulled this quote for this very

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Speaker 3: moment you wrote. When it comes to the spiritual life,

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Speaker 3: conditional surrender is a contradiction in terms. Surrender that demands

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Speaker 3: God grant us some outcome that we want is negotiation.

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Speaker 3: Genuinely turning our life and will over to Him includes

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Speaker 3: trusting that He is smarter than us and he has

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Speaker 3: purposes that we do not understand, which just so powerful

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Speaker 3: and so true.

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Speaker 2: It's fascinating to me again the way that discoveries have

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Speaker 2: come in the spiritual realm through alcoholism that mirror so

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Speaker 2: precisely what the Bible and Christian voices have said for

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Speaker 2: so many centuries. And I'll find for myself when I

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Speaker 2: read through, as most of the women in your community

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Speaker 2: will know what's sometimes called the Big Book or Alcoholics Anonymous.

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Speaker 2: That book, there'll be passages that feel so gripping to me,

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Speaker 2: And one of them is when Bill w is talking

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Speaker 2: about this issue of surrender and he talks about we

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Speaker 2: sought for a softer, easier way, but we could not

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Speaker 2: find it, and then he says half measures availed us nothing.

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Speaker 2: And C. S. Lewis, in his classic book Mere Christianity,

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Speaker 2: is talking about how what God wants from us is

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Speaker 2: not just part of our life. He uses the example

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Speaker 2: we often approach God kind of like we do the irs,

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Speaker 2: or you know, whatever the taxing body is, and whatever

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Speaker 2: country we live and where, well, I know I have

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Speaker 2: to give him what they demand, but I hope there's

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Speaker 2: enough left over for me to be able to enjoy.

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Speaker 2: And Louis says, no, it's not that way with God.

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Speaker 2: He doesn't want part. He wants all all my time,

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Speaker 2: all my mind, all my emotions, so that then he

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Speaker 2: can help me become a new person. And Lewis says,

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Speaker 2: half measures are no good. He uses exactly the same

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Speaker 2: phrase that the Big Book does. And I think it's

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Speaker 2: because it's the name cnature of addiction that to deal

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Speaker 2: with It effectively just brings us into the realm of

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Speaker 2: spiritual reality, and so we have the same language, the

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Speaker 2: same wisdom, the same observations. It's this strange gift.

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Speaker 1: To us all.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I totally agree with that.

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Speaker 3: We'll be back right after a quick word from our sponsors. Hey, babe,

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Speaker 3: let me just pause us for one second because I

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Speaker 3: want to let you know that sign ups are now

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Speaker 3: open for our June forty day alcohol Fast, which is

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Speaker 3: going to go through my book Love Life Sober for

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Speaker 3: six weeks in our private off of all social media community.

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Speaker 3: There's going to be four coaches and four calls a week.

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Speaker 3: If you can't make the calls live, they will be recorded.

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Speaker 3: We are opening up this very special private space within

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Speaker 3: the Love Life.

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Speaker 4: Sober community on May twenty first.

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Speaker 3: Coaching will start on June first and go through July

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Speaker 3: tenth for six weeks. There will be daily incurura in

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Speaker 3: that space. You will be led by myself again, these

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Speaker 3: three other amazing coaches, as well as a team of

439
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 3: our fast captains who have found freedom from alcohol through

440
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 3: Love Life Sober.

441
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 4: We are so excited about this summer fast.

442
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 3: If you'd like to join us, you can do so

443
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 3: at the link in the show notes, I can't wait

444
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 3: to meet you. I can't wait to walk these six

445
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 3: weeks for you. It's going to be a really, really

446
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 3: good one. So head to the link if you would

447
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 3: like to sign up, and I will see you on

448
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 3: June first. I hear this a lot with not being

449
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 3: able to surrender or fully give everything over because there's

450
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 3: this well and a lot of women I know struggle

451
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 3: with this need to control right think that we have control,

452
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 3: which we know is a complete illusion. But then the

453
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,399
Speaker 3: second kind of what comes after that is that I

454
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 3: don't truly trust God for me. My trust that I

455
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 3: have in him now after going through six years of

456
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 3: being alcohol free and just wanting to I know him

457
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,959
Speaker 3: so much more is my trust is based on the

458
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,879
Speaker 3: fact that I got to know who he truly was,

459
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 3: and he was not the God that I learned when

460
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 3: I was in grew up in church. It was a

461
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,639
Speaker 3: different God that I learned about in church who was

462
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 3: always coming to get me right and always thought I

463
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,719
Speaker 3: was doing everything wrong. Can you speak a little bit

464
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 3: to the woman who is struggling right now with that

465
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 3: surrender piece of it because she doesn't fully trust him.

466
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

467
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 2: A couple of elements I think are important because that's

468
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:37,679
Speaker 2: such a huge struggle for all of us. One of

469
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 2: them is a little phrase in step three, made the

470
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 2: decision to turn our will and lives over to the

471
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 2: care of God. And now I'll never be able to

472
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,919
Speaker 2: turn my will in my life over to God unless

473
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,479
Speaker 2: I believe the God cares. And that gets to a

474
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:01,199
Speaker 2: deep part of the soul where for lots of us,

475
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 2: I think we go to church, we know we're supposed

476
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 2: to read the Bible. We've seen those little verses that

477
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 2: say God is love. Yes, I believe that because I

478
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 2: go to church, But almost everybody I know, at some level,

479
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 2: and certainly I'm in this category, struggle with at just

480
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 2: a real, raw, primitive emotional level, does he care for me?

481
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:20,679
Speaker 1: Does he love me?

482
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 2: And there's a Christian writer, David Benner, who's done surveys

483
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 2: with folks where he will ask them, when you come

484
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 2: to God's mind, what do you think is God's immediate response?

485
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 2: God sees your face, God, here's your name. How does

486
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 2: God respond? The number one answer is disappointment. I think

487
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 2: God's disappointed to me. And then number two is angry.

488
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 2: I think He's angry with me, and so part of

489
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 2: the journey to surrender, I think is coming to believe

490
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 2: not just in my head but in my heart that

491
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 2: God genuinely loves and cares about and watches over and

492
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 2: is working for the good of me.

493
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: That's part of it.

494
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 2: Another piece is when Jesus talks about this, he says,

495
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 2: if anybody wants to come after me, let them deny themselves.

496
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 2: And all that deny myself means is when there's a

497
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,679
Speaker 2: choice between what I feel like doing and what I

498
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 2: know is the right and good thing to do, I

499
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 2: do the right and good thing to do. I no

500
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 2: longer do what I want to do just because I

501
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 2: happen to want it. People can get real twisted on

502
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 2: the self denial thing and make it masochistic or neurotic

503
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 2: or something. All it is is it's just saying, I will,

504
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 2: with God's help, sincerely seek to choose the good rather

505
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 2: than what I happen to want just because I happen

506
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 2: to want it. So deny yourself, take up your cross,

507
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 2: and follow me. In Luke he adds the little word daily,

508
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,880
Speaker 2: my cross daily, and folks in AA twelve step groups

509
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 2: will often talk about this one. I keep turning it

510
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,719
Speaker 2: over and taking it back and turning it over and

511
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 2: taking it back, and so, you know, here's my money, oops,

512
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 2: I need some, you know, here's my kids.

513
00:27:58,800 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 1: I'm you know.

514
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 2: So so to recognize my desire for control will keep

515
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 2: popping back up. That doesn't mean that I have not

516
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 2: surrendered to God. It does mean there's a daily process

517
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 2: where I keep taking it back and then I turn

518
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 2: it over and take it back and turn it over.

519
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 2: I think part of the genius of the twelve Steps

520
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:25,920
Speaker 2: is that they have a way of operationally defining words

521
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 2: that get too vague and fuzzy for us. And part

522
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 2: of what's real striking if somebody goes through them. And again,

523
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 2: most of the women that we're talking to you probably

524
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 2: know them. But it's very significant that they are all

525
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 2: the verbs are in the past. Tense admitted that we

526
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,959
Speaker 2: came to believe turned our lives, made the decision, And

527
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 2: the reason for that is that the steps worked for

528
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 2: four years before they got written down. So it's not

529
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:54,959
Speaker 2: hard for anybody at a church to go off and

530
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 2: say you should spend this much time reading the Bible,

531
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 2: this much time in Bible study, this much time. Small

532
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 2: groups serve this often solitude, this often. But the thing

533
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 2: about the twelve steps is they weren't invented, they were discovered,

534
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 2: and addiction was kind of like the compass needle that

535
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 2: keeps pointing towards true north. So if I wonder have

536
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 2: I really surrendered, well, then the question is real simple.

537
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 2: Do I move from step three to step four and

538
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 2: do a fearless and searching examination.

539
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 1: Of my life each of these steps.

540
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 2: Again, it's not superficial or legalistic or mechanical, but it

541
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 2: is very concrete. If I'm genuinely surrendered to God, then

542
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: I will move on to you. And in the twelve

543
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 2: step process, there's a very robust method for doing self examination.

544
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 2: It was certainly more challenging than anything I had done before.

545
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 2: And if I'm genuinely surrendered, then I will take that step.

546
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 2: If I haven't taken that step, then I haven't generally surrendered.

547
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 2: And you know your community will know this way better

548
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 2: than me. But that's where often the advice will be.

549
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 2: If you've find yourself unable or on willing to do

550
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 2: step four, then you probably want to go back and

551
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 2: look again at step three and ask have I really

552
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 2: done that?

553
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: Have I really surrendered?

554
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 2: Or is there a part of me now, my reputation

555
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 2: or my emotions, my willingness.

556
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: To be sad.

557
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 2: If I look at what I've done wrong, is there

558
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 2: a part of me that I haven't surrendered yet? And

559
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 2: then don't beat yourself up, just go back and look

560
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 2: at that process again.

561
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, because he's just such a merciful and grace felt god.

562
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 3: And I think that what I've learned over and over

563
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 3: again with my own journey and just like sanctification in general,

564
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 3: forget sobriety, but everything is that he's so gracious and

565
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 3: good in the timing that he asks us to look

566
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 3: at things. It's like, Nope, we need to open that

567
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 3: door now, or we need to like open that closet. Yeah,

568
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 3: he didn't ask us to do.

569
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: I think you're exactly right.

570
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 2: You can trust him that information will be given on

571
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 2: a need to know basis, Yes, and what I need

572
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 2: to learn about myself, the truth that I need to discover.

573
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 2: It's like, it's kind of weird because we all think

574
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 2: denial is really a bad thing.

575
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: Thank God for denial.

576
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 2: Dallas used to say, if I were to see all

577
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 2: the truth about my spiritual condition right now, I would

578
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 2: turn the stone.

579
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: I would not be able to handle it.

580
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 2: You know, Jesus says to his disciples at one point,

581
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 2: I have much more to tell you, but right now

582
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 2: you could not absorb it.

583
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

584
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 2: So God will make clear to each of us what

585
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 2: we need to know to be able to take the

586
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 2: right steps today. But I couldn't agree more Christian, I

587
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:38,239
Speaker 2: think so often it comes back to my ability to

588
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 2: trust depends on my believing with my heart as well

589
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 2: as my head.

590
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 1: He is a gracious and good and loving and kind

591
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: and friendly and compassionate God.

592
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's so true.

593
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 3: I actually pulled out this quote that you wrote, which

594
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 3: I love so much. The longest journey in the world

595
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 3: is the twelve inches from your head to your heart.

596
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 3: It is the journey from hearing about a God who

597
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 3: cares for the dear little sparrow that falls out of

598
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 3: its nest to quote coming to believe that this God

599
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 3: cares for you. It is a journey from affirming God

600
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 3: exists to experiencing yourself as God's beloved child.

601
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 4: And those twelve inches, man.

602
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 1: They're really really hard. Yeah true.

603
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 2: I don't know if this will make sense. It's hard.

604
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 2: I have a hard time describing this. I can't make

605
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: myself believe that God loves me. But when I'm praying,

606
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 2: when I'm alone with God, I can I can choose

607
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 2: to say, God, I want to believe that. Yes, I

608
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 2: want to be the kind of person that believes that.

609
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 2: And I am now choosing to open myself up to

610
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 2: the message that you love me. I am choosing to

611
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 2: open myself to the message that you love me. And

612
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 2: I think often one of the ways that the evil

613
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 2: One works in us is to make us think it's

614
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 2: more spiritual to accuse ourselves, and that actually makes me

615
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 2: push God farther away. So to have those times when

616
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 2: I simply say, okay, God, now I choose to open

617
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 2: myself to the message of your love, and I will

618
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 2: receive love from you now. And I can do that

619
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 2: even now you and I are talking, but I'm aware

620
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 2: that Goddes is here and who it else is listening

621
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 2: to us, and I can say God, just as I

622
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 2: talk to CHRISTI right now we think about these things.

623
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: I remember that you love me and you want to

624
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 2: inhabit these words, and I choose as best I can

625
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 2: to open myself up to that love in this moment.

626
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's so powerful. I just I told you before

627
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 3: we hit record. I'm at the Alpha Leadership Conference and

628
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 3: that's John Tyson literally just with speaking about this the Mark,

629
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 3: you know passage where the Father asks Jesus.

630
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 4: To help me with my unbelief.

631
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 3: And I just think that it's one of those daily

632
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 3: prayers that we get to pray.

633
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, No, I think we live in a day

634
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 2: where there's a guy named Charles Taylor who writes about

635
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 2: kind of the history of faith and culture and so,

636
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 2: and he says, five hundred years ago, it was very

637
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 2: hard for people not to believe in God. That was

638
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 2: just the world they lived in. It was an enchanted world.

639
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 2: It was clear that there are things beyond the physical.

640
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 2: It was hard for people not to believe that. Today,

641
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 2: it's hard for us to believe in God. And that's

642
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 2: not anybody's fault. And he says the reasons for it

643
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 2: are quite complicated, but it does mean I think when

644
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 2: people that little prayer I believe helped my unbelief is

645
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 2: probably more important today than it has been ever since

646
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 2: that dad first prayed it.

647
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, that is so true. That's so true.

648
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 3: We'll be back right after a quick word from our sponsors.

649
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 3: I loved the chapter that you wrote about habit change.

650
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 3: You write that true change must happen at the level

651
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 3: of habit. Habit is a behavior we have outsourced to

652
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 3: our body. Habit is what makes human life possible. Why

653
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 3: is it so important? And can you chat with us

654
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 3: about the difference between suppression of desire, which is all

655
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 3: about well power, and actually building habits.

656
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, whise people about spiritual life in the human condition

657
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 2: have always understood how central habit is to our life.

658
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 2: Often when we think of habits, we kind of reduce

659
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 2: it to a few things like picking up my nails

660
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 2: or smoking or having a data quiet time something like that.

661
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 2: But the reality is that learning how to speak is

662
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 2: something we're able to do by habit. Learning how to

663
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 2: drive a car. If you remember when you're first driving

664
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 2: a car and it's like shifting the gears and where's

665
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 2: the brake pedal? And then eventually you don't have to

666
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,760
Speaker 2: think about it anymore. So once something becomes a habit,

667
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 2: I have outsourced it to my body and I no

668
00:35:58,320 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 2: longer have to.

669
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: Think about it. Thank God for habit.

670
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: Otherwise, if you're always driver with somebody where they had

671
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 2: to think about it the way they did the first time,

672
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 2: nobody ever want to drive with anybody.

673
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: It's what makes writing possible.

674
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 2: It's just this brilliant invention like God, that we can

675
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 2: outsource behavior to our bodies. Yeah, but of course the

676
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 2: problem is sin has gotten into our habits. And that's

677
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,439
Speaker 2: where Paul's the old language for that, the King James

678
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 2: Bible is it's in our members.

679
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: So it's in my eyes, it's in my tongue, it's

680
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: in my hand.

681
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 2: And one of the great problems with self help literature,

682
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 2: often generally and unfortunately with a lot of approaches to

683
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 2: Christian's spiritual life is we wag overestimate what we can

684
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 2: do by willpower. Yes, and we end up saying I

685
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,720
Speaker 2: got to try harder to be patient, or try harder

686
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 2: to be joyful, try harder not to yell at my children,

687
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 2: try harder not to drink. And as a general rule,

688
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 2: that way is just doomed to failure and despair. So

689
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 2: as a general rule, transformation involves the change at the

690
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 2: level of habit. And that's where it's interesting with the

691
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 2: twelve steps. None of the twelve steps is I decided

692
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 2: I would never drink again. You know that decision is

693
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,720
Speaker 2: a key one. But the way I get the power

694
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 2: to do. That is indirectly as I admit, as I

695
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,320
Speaker 2: come to believe, as I make a decision. So generally

696
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:38,800
Speaker 2: we change when our aim is not to try really

697
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 2: hard to be good today. But I ask God, how

698
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 2: do I need to rearrange my life so that that

699
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 2: flow of thoughts and desires and perceptions inside me that

700
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,760
Speaker 2: run on habit, those actually become changed, or those actually

701
00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 2: become altered. And that's where the twelve Steps, as I

702
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,720
Speaker 2: follow them, really what they are about is the reformation

703
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 2: of habit. We don't all think about it that way,

704
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 2: and we've kind of trivialized habit to make it sound

705
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 2: like it's something you should be able to break by

706
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 2: willpower if you just try hard enough. But when habit

707
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 2: gets deep enough in us, then willpower is not going

708
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 2: to be able to do it. And that's where a

709
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 2: life of discipleship, of following Jesus, where I begin to

710
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 2: arrange it around these practices so that I can receive

711
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 2: the power from God to change at the level of habit,

712
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 2: and I begin to see differently and think differently, and

713
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 2: desire differently, and then choose differently. That really is the

714
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 2: level where change takes place.

715
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, and I want to shift into the think

716
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 3: differently apart because doctor Lee Warren is a mentor of

717
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 3: mine and he writes all about neuroplasticity. I mean, he's

718
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 3: a neurosurgeon, and he is brilliant and renewing your mind

719
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:06,359
Speaker 3: and how we are Actually we step into this role

720
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 3: of doctor in our own life and we can perform

721
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 3: spiritual self brain surgery in order to change our thoughts

722
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 3: and therefore our behaviors and our actions.

723
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:15,240
Speaker 4: It's so good.

724
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 3: That was part of the peace that was so big

725
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 3: for me was understanding the way that God had created

726
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 3: my brain and that drinking had become this habit.

727
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 4: Right.

728
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 3: There was literally no space between the stimulus and response.

729
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 4: It was just.

730
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 3: A one way neural pathway that was going to be

731
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 3: actioned on. And so there's so much freedom, I think

732
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 3: in that and understanding the way that God has created

733
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 3: us and created the way that habits have formed, and

734
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 3: then we can unform them, right, And that was something

735
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 3: that originally I thought was also like missing from the

736
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 3: twelve steps. And then I read your book and Step

737
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,800
Speaker 3: eleven and it is this improving the conscious contact with God,

738
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 3: and I was like, oh, it actually is all here,

739
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 3: So can you speak a little bit about that and

740
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,799
Speaker 3: renewing our mind and why it is so important with

741
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 3: the help of the Holy Spirit to do that.

742
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: No, it's wonderful.

743
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,919
Speaker 2: So folks in the twelve step community, you know, they've

744
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 2: obviously thought there's just so much wisdom around these and

745
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 2: they love Step eleven. Step eleven is sought to improve

746
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 2: our conscious contact with God. It's not even just to

747
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 2: increase it, because if I think of God as punitive,

748
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 2: severe and punishing, increasing my contact with him will not

749
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 2: improve it. So I need to come to understand Him

750
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 2: as he really is. Improve it through prayer and through meditation,

751
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 2: praying only or particularly for the knowledge of His will

752
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 2: for our lives and the power to carry it out.

753
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 2: That step is beloved because the first ten steps are

754
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 2: kind of playing defense. You know, I'm powerless, turn over

755
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 2: my life, will examine my life, make amends. Now on

756
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 2: the eleven step, we're going to offense and thinking positively,

757
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 2: what do I want to fill my mind with?

758
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 1: Dallas will it.

759
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 2: Very often would say that the greatest freedom in human

760
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:12,240
Speaker 2: life is the ability to decide where I will place

761
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 2: my mind, where I will place my thoughts. I have

762
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 2: two small grandchildren, I just watched them partially alone for

763
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,879
Speaker 2: five days while my kids were gone and my wife

764
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 2: was gone for part of it, and it was a reminder.

765
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 2: I'm guessing lots of people in your community are moms

766
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,879
Speaker 2: of young children, and it feels like there's about that

767
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 2: much freedom. I just I have so much admiration and

768
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 2: respect for what it is that you're doing. And do

769
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 2: not beat yourself up if it feels hard, because I

770
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 2: mean I was exhausted after a few days. But the

771
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 2: freedom that's always present, Dallas says, is where will I

772
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 2: place my mind? And step eleven recognizes this, and so

773
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 2: now I don't demand perfection.

774
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 1: It's about progress, not perfection. But I just seek to improve.

775
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 2: God, could I be more aware of you, Like right

776
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 2: now we're talking and I can start to feel.

777
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: The pressure of oh how am I doing? How's this

778
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 1: conversation going? As is being helpful? Do I sound smart?

779
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 2: And then remember, now God's here and so I don't

780
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 2: have to carry that burden. I don't have to carry

781
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 2: that way God, would you use whatever words we're saying

782
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 2: to be helpful to people, and then I'll do the

783
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 2: best that I can, but the outcome is in your hands,

784
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 2: Like Psalm sixteen says I have set the Lord always

785
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 2: before me.

786
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 1: Well how do I do that? I do that with

787
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 1: my mind. That's step eleven.

788
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 2: That's just coming right out of what the psalmist was

789
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:45,879
Speaker 2: saying there, And like anything else, that come a habit. Again,

790
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,919
Speaker 2: habit is a much bigger category than we usually make

791
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 2: it when we describe somebody. She's an anxious person, she's

792
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,800
Speaker 2: a happy person, she's an angry person. All we're doing

793
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:02,439
Speaker 2: is describing the kinds of thought that that person habitually tends.

794
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: That's all, or name it.

795
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 4: That's so true.

796
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 2: Now I may be genetically predisposed towards anxiety. So again,

797
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 2: I don't eat myself up for it. I don't judge

798
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 2: myself for it. But I ask God, God, would you

799
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 2: help me to fill my mind? And scripture is a

800
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 2: key part of that. Prayer is a key part of that.

801
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 2: Relationships is a key part of that. Listening to a

802
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 2: conversation like this as a part of that. Looking at

803
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 2: nature and looking at the beauty of the world. You

804
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 2: know one hundred different ways that I can seek to

805
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 2: redirect or train my mind so that God and His

806
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 2: guidance and presence and love are ever increasingly present before me.

807
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 4: Yes, so true.

808
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:49,959
Speaker 1: I'll say one more word about that. One.

809
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 2: Another statement that I love in the Big Book that

810
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 2: Big Bill W wrote about was it's tucked into step eleven,

811
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:02,879
Speaker 2: asking for knowledge of God's will for my life, power to.

812
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 1: Carry it out. And the reason that's so emphasized.

813
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 2: I certainly think we can talk to God about other stuff,

814
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,720
Speaker 2: but Bill WSA with alcoholics, we tend to tell God,

815
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 2: I want this for my kid, I want this from

816
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 2: my job, I want this for my marriage, I want this,

817
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,359
Speaker 2: and we're just we're directing the plan and telling him

818
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 2: what to do. And there's something about that prayer, God's

819
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 2: what's your will for my life and would you have

820
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 2: me to carry it? That keeps the posture right. Yeah,

821
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 2: and uh, the prayer from Jesus on that one the

822
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 2: gold standard is Thy will be done, You will be done.

823
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 2: Bill W's comment on that when he's talked about if

824
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 2: I try to stop drinking by willpower, I'm dead. Not

825
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 2: a lot that willpower can do. But he said, very

826
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 2: often during the day, when we're confused, when we're agitated,

827
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:53,439
Speaker 2: when we're upset, we pause and pray Thy will be done.

828
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 2: Pray along those lines all we want to that is

829
00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:59,320
Speaker 2: the proper use of the will.

830
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:01,800
Speaker 1: And again, it's so fascinating to me.

831
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 2: Dallas will that who was a great student of the

832
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 2: human condition and the will on the mind. He used

833
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:12,919
Speaker 2: to say, sometimes the will was made to surrender to God. Yes, yes,

834
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 2: the will was made to surrender to God. And so

835
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 2: with my mind, what I can always do if anybody's

836
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 2: listening to us and you're ever in a state where

837
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:28,839
Speaker 2: you're just utterly confused, troubled, baffled, just to pause, Okay, God,

838
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 2: youre will be done? Here, will be done. And now

839
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean I'm passive starting with me like, how

840
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,439
Speaker 2: shall I respond? How can I do your will right here?

841
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 2: So yeah, I love that notion of turning to the mind.

842
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 2: And how does the mind get renewed?

843
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:46,280
Speaker 4: Yeah?

844
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, And if you're listening to this right now and

845
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 3: you love what John is saying, go get the book.

846
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:52,319
Speaker 4: Go get the book.

847
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 3: Anyways, but you expand on that in your discussion of

848
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 3: willingness versus wilfulness, and I thought that was so powerful.

849
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 3: So everyone just needs to read this book. I so

850
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 3: appreciate you, John, thank you for taking the time to

851
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 3: talk to me and to bless our listeners. I so

852
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 3: appreciate you and just be praying for all the great

853
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 3: new things that you're working on.

854
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 4: So thank you for being here.

855
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 2: Thanks Christy and rich Rich Blessings on you and your

856
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 2: community and the work you're doing together.

857
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 1: With each other.

858
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 3: Thank you, Sean, Thank you for spending this time with

859
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:35,280
Speaker 3: me on Love Life Sober. If today's conversation stared something

860
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 3: in your heart, don't rush past it, take it to prayer.

861
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 3: If you're feeling ready for deeper connection and support, I'd

862
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 3: love to invite you into the Love Life Sober community,

863
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 3: a grace filled, shame free space where real connection grows

864
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 3: and lasting change takes root.

865
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 4: You can find the link to join us in the

866
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 4: show notes.

867
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 3: Love Life Sober is part of the Life Audio podcast Network,

868
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 3: where faith centered podcasts help you grow peper in your

869
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 3: walk with Christ. You can find more faith centered podcasts

870
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:08,320
Speaker 3: at liveaudio dot com. Until next time, be gentle with yourself,

871
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 3: stay curious, and trust God's promises.

872
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 4: He has freedom waiting