00:00:02
Speaker 1: Life Audio. This is Donna Jones and you are listening to That's just what I needed. Hey, friend, if you've ever been in a conversation where you've walked away thinking, Wow, that was just what I needed. You know how life giving that can be, Well, that's what this podcast is all about. We're women who want to know, love, and follow God in our real lives, but sometimes wonder just how to do it. So each week we'll talk about what following God looks like in the midst of daily demands and crazy cultural chaos. Because this isn't just what we need, it's actually exactly what we need. Hey, hey, my friend, so glad you are here for this week's episode of the podcast. Hey, if we have not connected on Instagram, let's do that. You will find me at Donna A. Jones. If Instagram it's not your thing, if you're more of a Facebook person, then we can connect at Donna Jones, Speaker and author. Either way, I would love to connect with you. And I don't know if you are aware of this, but I send out a monthly devotional newsletter. Really it's just a dose of spiritual encouragement and if you would like a little dos of spiritual encouragement about I don't know, every three weeks, every four weeks into your inbox, then why don't you hop over to my website, Donna Jones dot org. You can sign up for the newsletter and we'll stay connected that way. And I don't know about you. I every once in a while just need to get something in my inbox that's frankly just uplifting. It's encouraging, and it is scriptural, and so that's what I try to provide. So if that would be something that would interest you, I would love to connect with you that way as well. Well, let me tell you a little bit about today's guest. Her name is Kirby Kelly. She's just come out with a brand new book launching this week. She's a speaker and author, a podcast host, and she's a content creator in Dallas, Texas. Her online presence fans, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and her podcast bought En Beloved, where she helps listeners and viewers deepen their love for God and their knowledge of the Word. So help me welcome my guest, Kirby Kelly. Well, Kirby, welcome to the podcast.

00:02:20
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me on. I'm so excited for our conversation.

00:02:23
Speaker 1: I know, I am too, I am too, and Kirby. Before we hit record, I was asking you where you live, So tell us a little bit about where you live and what you do. Yeah.

00:02:34
Speaker 2: So I'm in the Dallas, Texas area. I've lived here for a while now. Since I was seven, I've just like pinged around North Texas. It's humongous if anyone has ever been here. But I live here with my amazing husband, Richard. We just celebrated five years of marriage back in October, and we're actually expecting our first baby late April, maybe early May, depending when she decides to make her grand arrival. I hear the first babies are usually like a week late, so we'll see. But when I'm not preparing for motherhood, I do a bunch of ministry stuff. So I also have a podcast called Boton Beloved. I am a speaker. I love to just preach teach people the Word of God, and I'm an author. So I came out with my first book called You Can Be Free, back in twenty twenty four, and this year I'm coming out with my second book, which is called The Fabric of Hope How God Weaves redemption into every season, and I feel like I'm even though the book has already been written, I feel like I've unlocked a new chapter just with like motherhood in this season of walking out, like a new thread of God's redemption in my life. So it's been beautiful to now have the book out, but also to be continuously living out the message that I've written. So it's it's just a really beautiful season right now.

00:03:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, you are in a beautiful season, but you haven't always been in a beautiful season. And I'm kind of suspecting that that was maybe the impetus for writing this book, Am I right?

00:04:02
Speaker 2: Oh? Your nail on the head literally?

00:04:05
Speaker 1: Okay? And I'm asking that because I don't fully know the story. So what was the inspiration behind this book?

00:04:12
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean my whole life. Really. I feel like since I was born, there were many parts of my life that I'm so thankful for that were beautiful, that work blessed by God. But there was a lot of hardship in my life growing up. For one thing, I talked about many things in my book, but one thing from the beginning was both of my parents struggled with addiction. Both my parents were alcoholics growing up, and that has its own set of nuances with it. But that's just hard for anybody to grow up in an environment where either a parent or a loved one that's within your proximity is dealing with addiction. That was something that really just ruled and reigned over my life, like I said, ever since I was born, and when I was ten years old, my dad ended up passing away from his addiction. A couple of years ago, back in twenty twenty three, my mom died from her addiction as well, and after a whole set of complications and everything. And I feel like that has been the biggest catalyst for this book, sprinkled with a bunch of other difficulties, nuances, seasons, traumatic things that have.

00:05:13
Speaker 1: Happened to me.

00:05:14
Speaker 2: But I think living in a constant environment of chaos for me, it was really hard for me to kind of reconcile that for a while with this God who is so good. If God is so good, why would he allow my parents to struggle with this? If God is so good, why would he allow me to endure just all the blows that come with being the child who has to step up as a parent in some of these situations, and I didn't get saved until I was fourteen years old. So I lost my dad when I was ten. I've grieved without hope, got radically saved at the same time my mom relapsed, and was able to navigate that season with hope for the first time in my life, not just the hope of the Gospel for my own sanctification and salvation journey and all those things, but as it pertained to the really difficult seasons that I couldn't control, that I couldn't necessarily leave. I mean, this was happening in my home life.

00:06:11
Speaker 1: I couldn't leave that.

00:06:12
Speaker 2: And so going throughout my life just in so much chaos, I was also able to once I gave my life to the Lord and really pressed into him, leaned into him, and began to learn about his nature, his character, his presence, all those things and more. I was able to understand that, oh, you were a God who also brings joy and peace and order and hope to these places where there is chaos and disruption and often aground for hopelessness. So I think that's where the book was birthed from. And there are many other seasons and situations in which that came from. But I've truly been able, especially in the past few years with the passing of my mom, to be able to have a new understanding of what it looks like to grieve with hope, to lament with hope, to hold on to hope within the tension of chaos and order and life of hurt and hope. And it's been really beautiful to see that God, looking back in my whole life, God has been consistent in showing up as a redeemer in all of those places, all of those places that I surrendered to him, all of those places that I allowed him to step in and fother me and have his will and way. And it's beautiful to see that, even unraveling now, like I said, as I step into this season of becoming a mom while grieving my mom, of still seeing God's redemption and hope kind of like a silver lining thread, just stitching all these things together that I thought would kind of forever remain tattered and torn. But He's the one who comes in and can bring beauty to those places and restitch those places to be repurposed for something that is not only good for me and the kingdom, but glorifying to who he is.

00:07:53
Speaker 1: That's so good. You used a couple of words over and over again that I want to highlight, and then I want to ask you a question about it. You use the word lament, and you use the word hope. Tell us what lament is because maybe some of our listeners are like, huh, that's not a word you use, you know when you're running to target every day. So tell us what lament is. And then I want to ask you a question about hope.

00:08:15
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I know that we all think that the Bible, whenever we open it up, it's all just like, oh, God is good and amazing and everything's fine in life is wonderful. God is good and amazing and perfect in all his ways. But when we really dive into reading scripture and actually, like, at face value, reading the real stories of real people who have real sin issues, who live in societies and cultures and systems where they're oppressed or there's injustice upon them or whatever, that there's this real struggle, there's this real strife where people cry out to God honestly and earnestly in the pit. From the pit, I think a lot of us can relate to that. We can think about our own life, whether it's a season that we went through a while or recently or maybe currently, we have been in the pit where we have lamented to the Lord, cried out to God, wrestled with the why, wrestled with trying to reconcile what is happening, and maybe not even being able to arrive to an answer from our own understanding. Like lament is truly to cry out to God honestly, earnestly with the broken parts of you that you just can't piece together. And I think it's beautiful that when we look at Scripture, there's a whole book dedicated to that. The Book of Lamentations is all about crying out to God from the pit, from the middle of the dark night and just letting him know, honestly, this is where I'm at, God, this is how I feel. These are the questions I have, These are the grievances that I'm holding onto, these are the resentments that I have. But and even in the Psalms, a majority of the Psalms is lament, And in my own season of grief with losing my mom recently, that was something that I felt like the Lord impressed upon me was you need to explore what it means to lament because so many of us are used to praise, and praise is great, praise the Lord God is good. But we are also given permission to sing a different song, which is lament. It's two different types of songs that we need to bring to the Lord, praise and lament. But the beautiful thing about lament that I've learned, and this goes into the second word, is that it always ends in this high note of hope. I've noticed that when when reading the laments in the Psalms or just throughout scripture, especially lamentations, they're being real and honest about this is what's going on in my life, and it doesn't seem fair, and where are you God? And what's happening God? But then there's this moment, and I think this is a spiritual discipline that a lot of us need to remember. It's to remember to remember who God is. And that's what shifts lament to be this place for hope to take root is remembering. And I write about this in the book that our hope is contingent not on our circumstance, but it's contingent on the personhood of God. The patterns of God, the promises of God, and the presence of God. When we can remember the truth of those four things, those four p's, those four pillars, then that is the perfect breeding ground for hope to actually bloom in our life. And I don't mean hope in the sense of wishful thinking, like, well, you know, I hope I get this job. I hope I get a parking spot at the front of target or whatever. I hope that my mom when she shows up to the holidays, that you know, she'll be sober. There's that wishful thinking with that kind of hope, and I get that. But the type of hope biblically that we get to have in every season and circumstance is a confident conviction that is based on the truth of who God is, his personhood, his patterns, his promises, and his presence. And when I locked into that and realized that, oh, that's what hope is. It's this confident conviction of who God is, not just my circumstance, but who God is in my circumstance that changed everything for me with navigating any season of hurt and pain and turmoil and trauma and change. And so that kind of is my definition of like what hope is, but also how that plays into lament a song we would rather not sing. But once we actually give ourselves permission to sing that to the Lord, he can move in that place where we can actually move to hope.

00:12:26
Speaker 1: And teach us more about him and his ways. Yeah, this is so good. So we're going to take just a quick break and when we come back, I want you to explore a little bit more about how to get that hope. You talked about those four pillars, but I want to dive a little deeper because everybody listening needs hope. There's nobody listening that doesn't need hope. So we're going to dive into that, and I really want to pick your brain about that because Curby, I told you the podcast is that's just what I needed, and there's nobody that doesn't need hope. We can do a lot of things and bear up a lot of burdens, but if we lose hope, then we really can't go on. It's that important. So we're going to take a quick break and when we come back, we're going to dive into this aspect of hope a lot more. Okay, So Kirby, we're talking about hope, and you just talked about the four pillars that when we're in the pit, that if we can remember it can increase our hopes for our hope, give us hope. So remind us of those four and just kind of walk us through how those enable us to have hope.

00:13:31
Speaker 2: Absolutely, So, the first one is God's promises. When we put our hope not in our circumstances or ourselves are just wishful thinking, but actually put our hope our trust in God's promises, it changes everything because his promises are what He has spoken and guaranteed, even when the circumstance feels uncertain. Now, maybe He has given you a direct promise. I fully believe that the Holy Spirit ministers to us and God speaks to us specifically about certain things that we're going through. But maybe you've cried out to God in the season that you're in and you're like, God, what do I have to cling to? I feel like you're giving me nothing. Maybe you feel like God is a little silent in the area that you're struggling in today. I want you to know that God has spoken through his word, through his written word. Those are his promises, and I have found that, like I said earlier, reading through the Psalms, reading through lamentations, especially reading through the Book of Isaiah, that has been a huge place where I unexpectedly found a lot of hope in relating to just seeing God through his prophets being able to bring resolution and redemption and a repurposing to God's people. That has brought me hope reading the promises of who God is, who he will always be, but even the promises that He says to his people, and so that's been a big pillar of mine. A second one is God's patterns. This is so important putting our hope in the patterns of God and again looking back on our own lives, especially if we've been walking with Jesus for a while, we've been living life with the Lord for a while, we need to stop to pause, to look back and reflect on the patterns of God in our life. And maybe you're newer to this walk with Jesus, Hi, Hello, welcome, Glad you're here, literally glad you're here. But we can also look at the patterns of his faithfulness in scripture, because we know God promises that he is unchanging, and we can observe through Scripture, and I bet in your own life looking back, how he has consistently worked throughout Scripture in our lives of waiting, of restoration, redemption, resurrection. He's actively at work doing those things in the areas of our life that we otherwise would have probably scrapped or thrown to the side. God is actively when we invite him in a redeemer, and that is a pattern of his So that is something that we can hope in, is that He has consistently done this throughout the entire meta narrative of Scripture. I have seen him consistently do this in my life, even though it didn't look the way I expected. But I know he has been consistent to do that, So won't he do that again? I can have hope in that. The third one is God's personhood, and what I mean by that is his nature, his attributes, who he promises that he is. Again, we go to Scripture to know this because it's his self revelation of who he is, and it's a story of God redeeming his people into himself. So I put my hope again, not in my circumstance, not in the other people who have failed me, not in politicians, not in countries or cultures or systems or whatever. No, my hope is in the person of who God is, because he is the one at his core. He is the one who is always faithful, always present, always holy, always just, always compassionate, sovereign, trustworthy. There are so many attributes to who he is, and we can bet our hope on that, we can hinge our hope on that in any circumstance, that well, God, this is falling apart, but you're the God who repieces things together. These people let me down, but you're the God who's trustworthy. So I'm gonna put my hope in you and not these things, because maybe some of us feel a little hopeless because we have placed our hope in those things that fall and fail and aren't built to sustain. But you know who is God. And the fourth one is God's presence. And I think this is really important too, because we need to remember, especially in the middle of the dark, cold nights, that God is with us. He really is with us. And I don't just mean that he is governing on his throne and looking at everything happening, but he is in the room. I think about Jesus. Jesus literally went through suffering. He was a suffering servant. He took on the full wrath of God. And I don't think we think about that enough. On the cross, he relates, He sits with us, he weeps with us. He is both our comfort and our confidence in the situations that we go through. He's with us in every season, not just meeting us at the very end of our story to bring the resolution. He walks with us in the journey right now as we're in the middle of the valley. So those are four pillars that I think that we need to begin to really hinge our hope on and assess in our lives. Where have I misplaced my hope? Have I put it in people, circumstances, my own striving and strength? It needs to be in the promises, patterns, personhood, and presence of God.

00:18:31
Speaker 1: That's so, so so good, Kirby. As you were just talking, I was thinking about how when you're lamenting, or when things are hard, or you're wondering how is this all going to work out? And how could God redeem this? Or what should I do? All of those things. Going back to these four is both powerful, but you have to be really purposeful to do that, because when you're kind of feeling emotional and you're lamenting over something, it's so easy to let your emotion lead When we're start spiralirling, it always goes down. So it's almost like these four pillars are a doorstop when we're feeling like I'm spiraling. Okay, wait, time out, let me go back to like, Okay, what's the person head of God? Who is God? Who is God? Really? I got to claim that? Okay? What are God's promises? What are God's patterns? How have I seen God be faithful in the past? And Kirby not even I think sometimes it's going back. How have I seen God be faithful in the past in my life? But how have I seen God be faithful in the past? And maybe other people's lives can sometimes be helpful. And then presence, okay, and the fact that, Okay, God, you are with me, and even though I may feel like you're a million miles away, your word says you're right here. And by faith, I'm going to believe it because you said it was true. And faith isn't a feeling. Faith is believing what God says is true and living like it.

00:19:50
Speaker 2: I even just want to affirm people today that God can handle your feelings. Our feelings are valid, the anger that you have, the grief that you're going through, the exact question that you feel, even maybe the bitterness that you're holding. I understand that the things that we go through build all of these feelings, But your feelings at the end of the day aren't the reliable thing to completely put your weight on. It's Jesus. We need to look at our feelings as indicators of Okay, something's going on that I need to bring to the Lord. Like I'm feeling angry about this situation. I need to bring this to God and confront him with all these things, because He can handle it. He can handle every emotion that we are feeling. He doesn't dismiss it. He helps us to process, heal, and walk through those things so that we can arrive to a place of hope, a place of intimacy with Him and sanctification even within ourselves. So God isn't dismissing or diminishing the fact that you have these heavy, real emotions. He's saying, bring them to me, trust them to me. Let's walk through these things together. Because again, when we put these things in the hand of a redeemer, the redeemer, something good can actually come from it.

00:21:05
Speaker 1: Okay, I love that you just said that, because that is really important. We're not saying that, you know, the feeling that's lament, right, we have the feelings that's real. We can't just put a happy Christian smiley face on and pretend that that doesn't exist in our souls because that's not being honest with God. That's not allowing God to go deep into your soul and change you from the inside out. It's when you bring all of those things into his presence that he does his deep work. So I love that you said that. Let me ask you this. You talk about in the book how God is both a blanket and a banner. So tell us a little bit about how you came up with those two and why those are significant.

00:21:48
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So. The title of the book is called The Fabric of Hope. And whenever I think of a piece of fabric, fabric is versatile. We're wearing fabric, we're sitting on fabric. I mean, I have curtains up that are made of fa Fabric is used for all sorts of different things. And when I think about the fabric of hope and who God is. There are two specific attributes of his that remind me of fabric, and the first is that he is a comforter. But the second is that he's also our confidence, like a banner. And so in the book, I talk about this. When I was little, like little little Kirby, before I believe in Jesus or knew who Jesus was, before I had a concept of the trinity, my trinity was my banking, my blanky, and my bunny. I would always ask for that at bedtime and be like, oh, well, my binky, my blanky, my bunny, and so my mom would always get that for me, and my dad would get that for me because that was a sense of security for me. And when I think about a security blanket, I always had to have my blanket with me. I think about that as a article or a piece. It is something tangible that gives me comfort. I can wrap myself in it. It allows me to rest, It brings me peace, It stills my anxiety and my spiraling. In the same way, God is like a blanket, literally our comforter, and I think about a comforter on our bed right It's like I love when I go to a hotel and they have like those big pillowy comforters, and I'm like, where did they get this? I need to get this for my house. It's so nice. But it's like, that is who God is. Where it's like at the end of a really long day when the night shows up and it's like, oh my goodness, like I can just sink into this space where I can rest. God is our comforter. He's our blanket that wraps us, that surrounds us, that gives us like a moment to just pause and be at peace. His presence does that. His person who he is, He provides that in the same way that his comfort gives us hope in a place to rest. He is also a banner. And whenever we look at banners throughout scripture, specifically in the Old Testament, banners were used for multiple things. They were rallying points for the people of God. They would prop them up whenever they were going into specific territory or battle. And basically these banners they were huge, and the opponent, the enemy, they could see it, or even people just passing by they would see these banners and know these are God's people. They have put their hope and their confidence and their trust in this God. And in the same way, there have been seasons where it's like, God, I just need you like a blanket. I need you to just weigh over me and comfort me and be my security. But there have also been seasons where, after that rest, after that rejuvenation, I've been able to take that same fabric of hope and sling it up like a banner and be like, look at what my God has done. Like my confidence isn't him. I rally under him. He is the one who gives me strength. He is the one that I'm going to testify about, and I want everyone to look at what he has done. So the idea of God being our blanket and our banner is that He is both our comfort and our confidence in different seasons. He shows up in the ways that we need him, and he's so versatile in that way, and I think that's just beautiful that there are so many aspects to who God is in the situations that we're in. There also so many aspects to the hope that He gives us in the seasons that we're going through. So that's what I mean when I talk about in the book that he's our blanket, but he's also our banner.

00:25:08
Speaker 1: Okay. I love that. That's beautiful imagery because those are the two things that we really need. We need him to be our comforter and we need him to be our confidence. That's so good. Okay. So let's just say, Kirby, somebody is listening right now and they're thinking, Okay, Kirby's talking about you know, lament and hope and God and you know. But that's all well and good maybe for people who have basically gotten most things right. But what about that person that's thinking, yeah, but I have gotten a lot of things wrong. And even to your point, Kirby, you were a recipient of your mom and dad's addiction, right, But what about that woman or man who's listening right now and they are not the recipient. It's like, oh, I'm the one who's messed up. Can God redeem that? So talk to us a little bit about that.

00:25:59
Speaker 2: The answer, in short is absolutely absolutely. Jesus is living proof of that, living proof in the sense that, yeah, he was born into this world, but he also died and rose again. He is living, breathing, active proof that his redemption lives on. He died once and for all, for all who would receive him. And if you have not received Jesus today, or if you are unsure about where you stand with God, if you're like I'm ninety percent sure I'm going to heaven, or I feel like I'm ten percent sure about these things because of what I've done. You know, is there really hope for me and God turning my life around and bringing beauty out of these ashes, making lemonade out of the lemons of my life. I want to confidently assure you that yes, God can redeem your life. You know why, because it's not on the basis of you or what you have done, or what you bring to the table, or how much potential you have, or any of those things that maybe has disqualified you in the past or qualified you in certain areas. It is the cross period that qualifies you for redemption. For God's redeeming work in your life. He died so that He could be in relationship with you and have fellowship with you and forgive you of your sins, but to also redeem your life, to sanctify, to begin to perfect the areas that need to be chipped away at that's actually a big heartbeat behind my first book that I wrote, because trust me, I have gotten it wrong. I've gotten it wrong in so many ways in my life where it was like I feel full of shame. I feel like I am just the scum of the earth, the worst sinner. The Bible applies to everybody but me. I get that completely. But I also have been able to understand through honest lament with God, like really crying out and pouring out my heart and coming to Him fully with everything, all of the baggage, all of the mistakes, everything that was given to me to care and the things I picked up. I have brought all those things to him. And guess what, in his loving kindness which blows my mind. In his loving kindness, he receives me. He receives me, He receives you. The invitation is there, the invitation is open, and He is just saying, come to me, Come to me, all of you who are weary and burdened. I will give you rest. He is the one who redeems. It is the work of the Holy Spirit within us that gives us the strength to move forward, to have joy that lasts in those seasons, to have peace that surpasses understanding to have the self control to navigate maybe the areas of life where we neglected self control. I don't know what your circumstances, but I want you to know that alive from the devil is that you do not qualify for God's redemption. The truth is is that Jesus bought your redemption and you simply It is literally such a simple gospel that we complicate and have to wrap our rights around. It is so simple that Jesus died for your sins because he loves you, and he's offering you new life, new redemption in him. And that looks like him redeeming your heart and your mind and your life and everything that you do. But it also, and this is just the bow on top, the cherry on top, it also means God going back to whatever happened before you knew him and him redeeming that too. And ain't God just that good? He really is? That is the good news. And I just want you to know that it is one hundred percent available to you and I because Jesus came for the sinners, and hello, welcome to the club. We need him as our savior every day. So you are not disqualified from receiving his grace, his hope, and especially his redemption.

00:29:56
Speaker 1: That's so good. You know, as you were talking, Kirby, I was thinking about the scripture and the song that says I dwell in a high and lofty place, but also with the lowly and contrite in heart. And it's like God is God, and he's you know, in the high and lofty place. I mean, he alone is the king of kings, the Lord of lords. That's where he dwells. But he also dwells and this is him saying this, but I also dwell with the people who are lowly in contrite in heart. And so when we just bring him our lowliness, our humility, you know, we're contrite over the sin in our lives. God dwells there and that's where he begins his redemption process. So love, love, love this. So, Kirby, as we're wrapping up here, tell our listeners how they can find your book, how they can connect with you, and maybe just any last thought that you would want to leave with somebody who's listening right now.

00:30:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so, depending on when this episode drops, the book comes out April seven, so you can either pre order and get all the fun little freebies on my website at Kirbydashkelly dot com, or you can just look up the Fabric of Hope. It's literally sold everywhere Amazon. It can be on your door as soon as tomorrow probably, so pre order or order whenever the episode comes out. You can also check me out and follow me on all of my things that I'm doing on my socials at Kirby is a Boss on YouTube and Instagram or Bought and Beloved podcast. But one final thing that I want to leave is just reading scripture because the Bible verse that is the foundation of this book is incredible and I think it's something homework for everyone that I would love for y'all to just take time to read and mull over and memorize and apply to your life and believe in your life today. And it's a scripture that comes from the Book of Romans, one of my favorite books of the Bible. But it's Romans fifteen thirteen, and it says, may the God of Hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in Him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is such a powerful verse and I want to leave that with you all today, that our God, Yahweh, the God we believe in, Father so and Holy spirits, trying God. He is the God of hope, and by putting our trust in him, we get to not only overflow with hope, but also abound in joy and peace because of His Holy Spirit that dwells within us who have received Him, who have believed in Him. That is beautiful, that is powerful. And I hope that that verse alone encourages you.

00:32:35
Speaker 1: Oh so good, Kirvy, so good. I needed that verse. And I can just tell you everybody who's listening needed that verse. That was just beautiful. Well, Kirby, thank you so much for being on the podcast. It has been just a delight to get to know you and hear your wisdom and just a source of encouragement, a source of hope. So may God bless you and all you do.

00:32:57
Speaker 2: Thank you. I appreciate it.

00:33:00
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed today's episode, And as a reminder, let's connect on social media on Instagram Donna A. Jones on Facebook Donna Jones, Speaker and author, or jump over to my website and sign up for my free monthly newsletter. Donna Jones dot org and as always my friend. I can't wait to see you next time, for that's just what I needed.