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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 2: I'm Dr. James Spencer.

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Speaker 1: Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways

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Speaker 1: God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural,

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Speaker 1: and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now,

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Speaker 1: on to today's episode of Thinking Christian.

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Speaker 2: Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr.

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Speaker 2: James Spencer. I'm joined today by Dr. Ashish Varma.

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Speaker 1: And we are going to be talking about amplification. This

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Speaker 1: is the last of our series on the forces and

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Speaker 1: conditions that are really related to the problem of narrowing

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Speaker 1: we've been talking about. And so amplification really is very

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Speaker 1: much tied to technology. Marshall McLuhan, one of his four

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Speaker 1: laws of media, which really do apply into technology, He

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Speaker 1: argued that technologies or media, they amplify or extend certain

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Speaker 1: human capacities. So I like to think about this in

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Speaker 1: one of its simplest forms.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: If you think about eating most of the time, if

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Speaker 1: you were going to eat, like, let's say, a bowl

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Speaker 1: of spaghetti.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: Number one, we have a bowl.

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Speaker 1: It's a container. It's a form of technology. But usually

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Speaker 1: we unless we're three years old, we don't eat spaghetti

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Speaker 1: with our fingers.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: We don't try to reach in and grab the spaghetti,

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Speaker 1: pick it up and then just pop it in our mouths.

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Speaker 1: What we usually do is we use a fork or

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Speaker 1: depending on your culture, like when my girls and I

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Speaker 1: go out for pho, I use chopsticks to eat noodles.

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Speaker 1: But we have some sort of technology that extends our hands,

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Speaker 1: extends our grip. Right. And we can use to eat

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Speaker 1: that keeps our hands from getting dirty, keeps our hands

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Speaker 1: from getting all that food on it. And so it

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Speaker 1: makes our eating to some degree more efficient. But this

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Speaker 1: is an extension of a capacity we already have. We

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Speaker 1: could eat with our fingers. We prefer not to. And

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Speaker 1: so the fork, the chopsticks, the utensil, whatever it is

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Speaker 1: that we're using, that then becomes an extension of something

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Speaker 1: we could do otherwise, but we prefer not to. So

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Speaker 1: that's just sort of a really simplified case of amplification.

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Speaker 1: It amplifies something that we already have available to us.

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Speaker 1: But the technology allows us to do it in, in

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Speaker 1: this case, a cleaner fashion, let's say. We don't have

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Speaker 1: to get our hands dirty. So that's the sort of

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Speaker 1: thing we're going to be talking about. And obviously, there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of different examples. And I don't know, Ashish,

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Speaker 1: maybe the best place to start is what technology is

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Speaker 1: in the first place. And so I have a couple

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Speaker 1: of thoughts on it, but I'd kind of like to

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Speaker 1: pass it to you and let you start.

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Speaker 4: I do think that's the best place to start.

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Speaker 3: Because I think what's contained in what is technology is

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Speaker 3: recognizing that it belongs to a system or a narrative,

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Speaker 3: however you want to put it, in which you're trying

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Speaker 3: to do something. So you've identified certain goals. You've identified

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Speaker 3: even certain ethics that belong to those goals, right? One

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Speaker 3: of those ethics might be we value cleanliness. And there's

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Speaker 3: a whole history of the rise of cleanliness in American

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Speaker 3: culture and how that became such a prominent part of

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Speaker 3: the ways in which we think about organizing. Well, once

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Speaker 3: you have those ideas in mind of a goal, plus

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Speaker 3: the ethics of cleanliness, let's say, you start to think

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Speaker 3: about what it is you can do to make what

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Speaker 3: you're doing ostensibly easier or ostensibly more efficient. And I

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Speaker 3: say ostensibly because there's plenty written and plenty of studies

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Speaker 3: done on how The more technology intrudes upon us, the

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Speaker 3: more that's expected of us, and it doesn't actually free

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Speaker 3: up our time. But ostensibly, that's the goal, right? So

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Speaker 3: when John Deere was plowing the fields in the Midwest,

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Speaker 3: the root systems were such that the plows that already

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Speaker 3: existed didn't work. So what do we do about that? Well,

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Speaker 3: John Deere says, he goes through his experimentation and he

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Speaker 3: comes upon this steel-tipped plow.

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Speaker 4: What he was trying to do was plow the fields.

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Speaker 3: But what he wanted to do ultimately was to be

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Speaker 3: able to do more faster as well, right? It's not

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Speaker 3: that he couldn't work the ground, till it, and get

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Speaker 3: done what he needed to do, but the idea was

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Speaker 3: bigger and bigger. Well, where you end up with that

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Speaker 3: is more and more technology that comes out of John

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Speaker 3: Deere that gets implemented in farms. I mean, now suddenly

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Speaker 3: you've got these farms that there's no way that a

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Speaker 3: farmer is going to work the amount of land that

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Speaker 3: we see farmers working without this machinery. So you've got

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Speaker 3: those things tied together, but what that does is it

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Speaker 3: ends up creating a certain dependence in the process too, right?

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Speaker 3: Imagine the farmer without the technology. That farmer can't survive.

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Speaker 3: That farmer can't produce the mass amount that he needs

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Speaker 3: or she needs in order to get crops to market

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Speaker 3: in order to then pay for the next round of seed,

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Speaker 3: of technology, of fertilizer, of water, right? So it becomes

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Speaker 3: an intimate part of the cycle that attaches on.

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Speaker 4: To what we are.

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Speaker 3: And I'll put that in contrast to another technology. So

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Speaker 3: now we are thoroughly embedded in a world in which

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Speaker 3: we have touchscreens. And we have generations being born in

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Speaker 3: which they just take for granted the touchscreen. I'll never

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Speaker 3: forget when my kids were really young and we had

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Speaker 3: YouTube up on the screen. and they went to that

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Speaker 3: little triangle play button, and they just tapped the screen.

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Speaker 4: And I'm like, what are you doing?

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Speaker 3: And in their minds, the idea of a screen not

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Speaker 3: being a touchscreen just didn't exist, right? Well, you compare

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Speaker 3: that to previous generations where we would be inclined to

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Speaker 3: use a mouse, right? And for us, the touchscreen... seems

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Speaker 3: superfluous even to the point where i remember back in

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Speaker 3: i want to say this was the 90s my dad

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Speaker 3: came home we had this old ibm compatible computer that

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Speaker 3: ran early version of windows and he came home with

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Speaker 3: this thing that you put on top of the monitor

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Speaker 3: and it made that monitor into a touch screen and

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Speaker 3: he was super excited and i remember looking at him

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Speaker 3: as a child saying why do we need this said

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Speaker 3: you don't need the mouse anymore you can just touch

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Speaker 3: the screen And I said, nobody wants to touch the screen.

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Speaker 3: I have to reach my finger all the way up

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Speaker 3: there to.

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Speaker 4: Touch the screen.

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Speaker 3: With my mouth, I can sit back and just move.

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Speaker 4: My hand lightly.

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Speaker 3: And the truth was that we were both right because

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Speaker 3: that touchscreen technology did not take off. And it's a story, right,

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Speaker 3: of technology doesn't serve ultimately the way that we envision life.

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Speaker 3: So there's an imagination component in there. And then it

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Speaker 3: doesn't do anything. Now, why did the technology of the

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Speaker 3: touchscreen eventually take off? Well, eventually Apple comes back into

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Speaker 3: the game, and this is well over a decade later.

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Speaker 3: And it incorporates the touch technology, but now it makes

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Speaker 3: it something desirable, right? The whole marketing premise of Apple

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Speaker 3: that was on the verge of bankruptcy at the time

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Speaker 3: when it started to get into the market as we

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Speaker 3: know it now was revitalized by the idea of make

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Speaker 3: it look cool. Make us think that we're part of

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Speaker 3: a trend.

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Speaker 4: And there's the.

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Speaker 3: Ethics of it, right? We all had that desire. So

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Speaker 3: that's how they did their ethics, and their goal was

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Speaker 3: ultimately to make money, and this was a technology to

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Speaker 3: serve that purpose. Anyway, the point here is to show

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Speaker 3: that there are different ways in which technology come about,

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Speaker 3: but the idea is they're always doing something, and they

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Speaker 3: always try to conform to a certain internal ethical standard,

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Speaker 3: whether or not we would think of it externally as ethical.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with that. I think... I agree with

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Speaker 2: all that.

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Speaker 1: There's an aspect of this, too, that I want to

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Speaker 1: make sure that we don't lose, which is that technology

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Speaker 1: is an appropriate response to a fallen condition. So, in

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Speaker 1: other words, our relationships are broken post-fall, and I think

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Speaker 1: technology is given as a response to those broken relationships.

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Speaker 1: I would argue that we see this early on in

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Speaker 1: Genesis with the fig leaf. You know, the relationships between man, woman,

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Speaker 1: world creation are broken and they cover themselves because they're ashamed.

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Speaker 1: Then God comes along and gives them better coverings, more

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Speaker 1: suited to them out of the skins of animals. These

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Speaker 1: are early forms of technology that are now necessitated by.

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Speaker 1: a declining fitness for a context in which the world

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Speaker 1: is not functioning as it did prior to the fall.

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Speaker 1: In other words, the human capacity really hasn't changed that much,

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Speaker 1: but the relational dynamics that allowed human capacity to flourish

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Speaker 1: in the garden allowed humankind to name all the animals

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Speaker 1: naked is no longer the capacity that is available.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't work the same way post-fall. And so I

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Speaker 2: agree with you.

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Speaker 1: I think that technology has, it's embedded within our stories.

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Speaker 1: It makes sense within our stories. There is a context

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Speaker 1: in which it makes sense to use, you know, X

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Speaker 1: technology as opposed to Y technology, right?

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Speaker 2: There's a reason.

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Speaker 1: I'm not exactly sure I can articulate it, but there's

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Speaker 1: a reason why people are so fascinated with space travel.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's a reason that people want to, you know,

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Speaker 1: some people appreciate that Elon Musk wants to take us

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Speaker 1: to Mars or create robots that will alleviate us from

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Speaker 1: our hard labor. Like there's an ethic. that makes that

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Speaker 1: make sense. I don't know that I understand that fully.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand why you would want something else doing

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Speaker 1: all that work for you. But you're right. It's embedded

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Speaker 1: within these stories. But I also think that technology has

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Speaker 1: its place post-fall. I don't hear you denying that. I

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Speaker 1: just want to make sure that that point gets out there,

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Speaker 1: that there is an appropriate use of technology within a

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Speaker 1: post-fall world. But that technology that often helps us also

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Speaker 1: creates that dependency you referenced. And I think that dependency

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Speaker 1: is the fruit of our desire to make something other

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Speaker 1: than maybe what God would want us to make of

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Speaker 1: his creation. And then as such, we start to develop

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Speaker 1: technologies and push progress, right? Progress should probably be in

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Speaker 1: air quotes too, that are commensurate with our vision of

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Speaker 1: what creation should be, not necessarily aligned with what God's

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Speaker 1: vision of creation should be. And so we've got this

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Speaker 1: sort of razor's edge on which we balance. Where is

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Speaker 1: it appropriate for us to utilize technology to amplify what

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Speaker 1: might be thought of as something like human flourishing versus

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Speaker 1: when does that so degrade that the technology essentially captures

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Speaker 1: us and we become a reflection of it as opposed

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Speaker 1: to having us utilize it to reflect God's glory. I

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Speaker 1: realize that's really overly conceptual, but let me illustrate it

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Speaker 1: like this. We're having a, we, we have these conversations

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Speaker 1: every week. It's mediated by technology and then we record it.

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Speaker 1: We load it up into another system. It shoots it

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Speaker 1: out via an RSS feed and other people listen to it.

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Speaker 1: I would count that as a good thing. I think

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Speaker 1: it's a good amplification. I enjoy having these conversations. They're

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Speaker 1: sort of life-giving for me. Yes, we could drive the

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Speaker 1: four hours that separate us and talk every week, I suppose.

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Speaker 2: But that's a long trip.

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Speaker 1: An eight-hour round trip to talk and record something isn't

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Speaker 1: as efficient as just doing it like this. And so

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Speaker 1: we've decided collectively that this is actually an okay way

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Speaker 1: to do this, that we don't need to drive the

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Speaker 1: eight hours. to get in close proximity to one another

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Speaker 1: to record or to talk or what have you.

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Speaker 2: We'll save that for special occasions.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, where this is sort of life-giving

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Speaker 1: for us, I think you could go online and find

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Speaker 1: content that most Christians, if not all Christians, would agree

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Speaker 1: is not life-giving. And that, you know, we know there's

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Speaker 1: like an internet pornography problem, for instance. We know that

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Speaker 1: there are issues with scandal journalism and, you know, just

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Speaker 1: ridiculous misinformation online. These are amplifications of our baser instincts

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Speaker 1: that now are unfettered due to technology, where they might

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Speaker 1: have been localized at one point. Now they are distributable online.

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Speaker 1: And that becomes deeply problematic. And so you see the

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Speaker 1: same sorts of technologies being used to amplify something that

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Speaker 1: I would judge as good and something that I would

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Speaker 1: say is not so good.

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Speaker 3: Maybe a distinction here is to discuss the development of

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Speaker 3: technology from the use of technology. When I've had these

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Speaker 3: discussions in class, students like to say, well, we think

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Speaker 3: technology is basically neutral and it's how you use it.

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Speaker 3: And I tend to push back. I don't like quite

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Speaker 3: that simplification of it. I do think what they're getting

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Speaker 3: at on one end is helpful, right? There are uses

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Speaker 3: of technology. As you pointed out, our use of the

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Speaker 3: cameras and the mics and the internet and the computers

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Speaker 3: in order to do this podcast, to have these conversations

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Speaker 3: that are, agreed, very life-affirming. and enjoyable is a great

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Speaker 3: use of it. But we also recognize that the development

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Speaker 3: of these things wasn't so that we could use it

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Speaker 3: to be affirmed in our lives. The development of these

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Speaker 3: things is ultimately part of a progression in which the

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Speaker 3: people who are on top of these enterprises, the technological enterprises,

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Speaker 3: are seeking to find the next way to make money, right?

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Speaker 3: So it's part of this larger technique that we can

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Speaker 3: call capitalism. Capitalism is a technique for making money, but

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Speaker 3: also for making sure that I make the money that

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Speaker 3: I want to make without necessarily the concern for how

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Speaker 3: I go about doing it or for what that might

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Speaker 3: mean for somebody else. And therein we get that technology

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Speaker 3: isn't quite so neutral. So if my goal is to

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Speaker 3: develop a technique in which I can make money at

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Speaker 3: the expense of other people or to the good of

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Speaker 3: my set of people, but no real concern for the

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Speaker 3: other people.

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Speaker 4: That's not a morally or ethically neutral thing.

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Speaker 3: However, in the process of that, we certainly can take

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Speaker 3: this stuff and the people that develop it are more

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Speaker 3: than happy for us to take it and use it

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Speaker 3: for other things that are affirming to us. But those uses,

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Speaker 3: I think, shouldn't be confused with the purposes set forth

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Speaker 3: that generate why the technique was developed in the first place.

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Speaker 4: Is that fair?

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Speaker 2: No, it definitely is.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's a helpful progression of the argument

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Speaker 1: because I would agree with you that I think our

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Speaker 1: problem with the internet, if I could, in technology more generally,

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Speaker 1: especially in a digital world, I would say it's not

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Speaker 1: so much about the misinformation, although that's difficult too. It's

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Speaker 1: a misformation. In other words, these digital platforms aren't neutral.

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Speaker 1: Their development is not neutral and they are cultivating values

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Speaker 1: and habits in the Bordeaux sense of habitus, right? A

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Speaker 1: sense of the way the world actually works. They're cultivating

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Speaker 1: that sense within us as we use them. And so

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Speaker 1: we have to, I think, grapple deeply with How does

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Speaker 1: this technology, how is this technology tempting me to be

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Speaker 1: let go of something that would make me more human?

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Speaker 1: This is where I really love Albert Borgman's distinction between

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Speaker 1: things and devices. In his analogy, a wood-burning stove, he

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Speaker 1: calls that a thing. Now, obviously, a wood-burning stove could

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Speaker 1: be classified as a technology, right? And part of what

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Speaker 1: I like about what he does is he's not anti-tech.

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Speaker 1: But what he's using is more what we might call

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Speaker 1: rudimentary technologies, let's say. And he's calling those things, right?

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Speaker 1: And things don't commodify to the extent that a device commodifies.

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Speaker 1: And so the illustration he uses is this wood-burning stove.

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Speaker 1: And he says, just think about all that has to

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Speaker 1: go into the wood-burning stove. someone has to go out

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Speaker 1: and cut the wood, right? And he tells this wonderful,

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Speaker 1: maybe this is a father and a son who go

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Speaker 1: out and they cut the wood together and they carry

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Speaker 1: the wood back in. And then someone has to cook

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Speaker 1: on the stove, right? So the stove isn't just for heat.

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Speaker 1: It's also about the meal. It's about cooking on the stove.

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Speaker 1: And so now as you're in this house, people start

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Speaker 1: to gather around the wood-burning stove because the heat is

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Speaker 1: going to be It's going to be warmer closer to

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Speaker 1: the stove than it is farther away from the stove.

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Speaker 1: And so you've created this sort of social matrix around

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Speaker 1: this thing that is providing you with something. It's useful

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Speaker 1: to you, but it's also underscoring the deep interdependencies we

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Speaker 1: have with one another, with nature, with all these different

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Speaker 1: aspects versus something like my Google Home thermostat. that uh

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Speaker 1: you know if my wife and i both have our

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Speaker 1: app up we'll you know play a little war on

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Speaker 1: whether we want it cooler or hotter in the house

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Speaker 1: right i mean that's as much interaction as you need

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Speaker 1: to have with it my family and i do not

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Speaker 1: huddle around the thermostat trying to get warm the heat

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Speaker 1: is distributed and this is what borgman calls the commodification

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Speaker 1: of that heat it it gets easy we can just

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Speaker 1: get it by turning a dial, pushing a button, and

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Speaker 1: all of the apparatus that are then used to get

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Speaker 1: that heat are essentially anonymous to us. We don't know

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Speaker 1: who's working in the energy plant, what they're doing. I

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Speaker 1: have no clue where the gas really comes from, like

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Speaker 1: where is that located in my local area. It comes

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Speaker 1: in through a pipe in my house, and that's about

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Speaker 1: as aware as I am of it.

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Speaker 2: And that's what heats my home.

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Speaker 1: And so it creates a distance between us and others,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to a thing which creates connection with us

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Speaker 1: and others. I think that's a really helpful distinction. Not

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Speaker 1: because I want to go back to Little House on

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Speaker 1: the Prairie and have wood-burning stoves and, you know, four

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Speaker 1: strong carriages and those kind of things.

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Speaker 2: I like my car. I like my heat.

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Speaker 1: But I think it gives us a way of thinking

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Speaker 1: through these different technologies that remind us that these are

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Speaker 1: not only useful to us, they're doing something to us.

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Speaker 1: They're changing the way we think about the cadence of

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Speaker 1: our daily lives. And they're reshaping us in subtle ways

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Speaker 1: away from one another, as opposed to toward one another. Um,

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Speaker 1: This last thing I'll say, like you'd mentioned, you know,

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Speaker 1: the time element, right? Like it has been shown that

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Speaker 1: all this technology that's supposed to be so much more

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Speaker 1: efficient for us hasn't exactly saved us any time. And

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Speaker 1: my guess is that's because we can tear through higher

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Speaker 1: volumes of work incessantly as opposed to doing the same

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Speaker 1: amount of work we used to in a much shorter time.

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Speaker 2: That would be more efficient.

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Speaker 1: But what we're doing now is we're saying, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: if it only takes me, you know, five seconds to

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Speaker 1: write and send an email and I don't have to

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Speaker 1: write that on a, you know, with a quill and

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Speaker 1: ink and I don't have to, you know, stamp it and,

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Speaker 1: you know, go to a post office to mail it.

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Speaker 1: Look at all this other time. I can do 20

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Speaker 1: emails in that time. We filled up that time plus

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Speaker 1: more through the technology. And that's what I think we

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Speaker 1: probably want to avoid as we think about technology as

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Speaker 1: an example, is that email really did give us an

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Speaker 1: opportunity to spend more time with others.

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Speaker 2: It really did.

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Speaker 1: We just chose not to spend that more time with others.

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Speaker 1: We chose to spend it to be, quote unquote, more productive, right?

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Speaker 1: to dive into the work as opposed to pull away

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Speaker 1: from the work and take what that technology could have

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Speaker 1: given us, a more efficient way to communicate at the

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Speaker 1: rate and cadence we were communicating. But we opted not

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Speaker 1: to do that. We opted to fill up the space.

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Speaker 1: So just as a sort of an example.

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Speaker 4: That's helpful.

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Speaker 3: If you don't mind, I want to delve into what

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Speaker 3: exactly is going on, because I think the distinctions you

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Speaker 3: made are worth reflecting on, and I think the way

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Speaker 3: in which you've parsed out the efficiency problem is worth

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Speaker 3: delving into. So maybe I'll take them in reverse order.

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Speaker 3: Regarding the efficiency problem, that kind of gets back to

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Speaker 3: the goal of the development, right? I mean, even now

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Speaker 3: we see leaders in the AI revolution saying that exact thing.

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Speaker 3: This is going to free us up to do all

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Speaker 3: sorts of things. But they know full well that the

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Speaker 3: freeing us up to do other things requires still the

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Speaker 3: capacity to make money. Because money, unfortunately, is the way

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Speaker 3: in which we... It's that storing of energy, right? I

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Speaker 3: can do my job. You can do your job. They

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Speaker 3: can do their job. And we convert all that energy

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Speaker 3: into money, which allows us to then buy the products

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Speaker 3: of someone else's job. or by the products of the

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Speaker 3: farmer's work, right? And that's the commodification. But that is

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Speaker 3: not a neutral process, right? And so now we have

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Speaker 3: a situation in which there's the capacity for some to

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Speaker 3: make more of the money than others, and there's the

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Speaker 3: desire to make more money than others.

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Speaker 4: And this isn't a new desire.

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Speaker 3: The medieval church talked about avarice as one of the

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Speaker 3: seven deadly sins. And it's this love of money for

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Speaker 3: the sake of accumulating it or this love of wealth

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Speaker 3: for the sake of accumulating it. That hasn't gone away.

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Speaker 3: So now when we develop these technologies, it's always with

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Speaker 3: an eye to, can it be fine-tuned in a way

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Speaker 3: in which it's marketable to a mass number of people

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Speaker 3: to convince them to reimagine their lives as worked in

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Speaker 3: and through them so that it becomes inseparable, right?

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Speaker 4: Like the car.

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Speaker 3: And now that it's inseparable, can we, build it in

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Speaker 3: a way in which it enables the constant generation of

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Speaker 3: revenue perhaps that's every year we need to make a

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Speaker 3: new car with a slight addition to it that makes

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Speaker 3: it more desirable right maybe it's a fashion industry that

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Speaker 3: says your clothes aren't good enough even though they don't

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Speaker 3: have holes in them we need to get you to

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Speaker 3: buy new clothes right your computer can that used to

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Speaker 3: be able to be something that you opened up and

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Speaker 3: you added new memory to, or you added a new

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Speaker 3: video card to, or you changed out your hard drive.

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Speaker 3: We got to make them solid state, everything and sealed

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Speaker 3: so that now you just throw it and you can buy,

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Speaker 3: you know, Ram is cheap, but the computer itself is not.

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Speaker 4: Now you buy the whole thing, right? And these are the.

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Speaker 3: Ethics that sort of drive the innovation. But to me,

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Speaker 3: that's very different in the way that you were describing, um,

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Speaker 3: I can't remember the term used, but the non-commodified version,

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Speaker 3: the wood-burning fireplace or oven.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the thing.

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Speaker 3: And I think the thing, the thing, that's what it is,

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Speaker 3: the thing. The way you described it, I think, was

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Speaker 3: helpful in terms of that thing that draws us together.

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Speaker 3: I want to look at it also from another angle

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Speaker 3: and say it's not just that it draws us together.

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Speaker 3: It's an effort and innovation that's meant to guide us

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Speaker 3: into a sense of enmeshing. Enmeshing with each other, but

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Speaker 3: also enmeshing with the earth. The image that comes to

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Speaker 3: my mind that I know you'll laugh about is the

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Speaker 3: way that Tolkien and his illustrators describe the ways in

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Speaker 3: which the elves build, which looks very different. There's something

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Speaker 3: very organic. There's something built into. It's cooperating with. It's

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Speaker 3: meshing with. It's like a co-laboring. It's recognizing life all

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Speaker 3: around them. And I don't know about the wood-burning oven,

436
00:26:17,430 --> 00:26:19,250
Speaker 3: perhaps it fits in this or not, but for the

437
00:26:19,290 --> 00:26:21,330
Speaker 3: sake of this argument, let's say it does, that the

438
00:26:21,410 --> 00:26:23,490
Speaker 3: purpose of it is to help us to be able

439
00:26:23,630 --> 00:26:29,150
Speaker 3: to better cook our food, right? Perhaps that's the better

440
00:26:29,190 --> 00:26:30,899
Speaker 3: way to do it within an environment that has an

441
00:26:30,940 --> 00:26:34,659
Speaker 3: abundance of wood that we can take from without overtaking

442
00:26:34,700 --> 00:26:38,220
Speaker 3: and taxing the environment. But that's a very different logic

443
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,890
Speaker 3: from the logic of more. Which is what I'm understanding

444
00:26:41,930 --> 00:26:46,250
Speaker 3: these other things. The technological logic of more is there

445
00:26:46,330 --> 00:26:49,150
Speaker 3: isn't enough. I've never reached the place where I've made

446
00:26:49,190 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 3: enough money. Now, perhaps for the working class who are

447
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,060
Speaker 3: living paycheck to paycheck, that's because inflation keeps happening and

448
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 3: things keep rising in price. But why does inflation keep rising?

449
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,580
Speaker 3: Why is that oil that's in the tank suddenly more expensive?

450
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 3: It's because of these other forces that I would argue is.

451
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 4: It's the logic of more, perhaps the disease of more.

452
00:27:08,859 --> 00:27:11,500
Speaker 3: I must have more. I must have more spending power.

453
00:27:11,580 --> 00:27:14,659
Speaker 3: I must have more commodity. I must have more influence

454
00:27:15,020 --> 00:27:17,290
Speaker 3: that the money can get me. I must have the

455
00:27:17,330 --> 00:27:20,469
Speaker 3: ability to dictate the way things ought to go. And

456
00:27:20,570 --> 00:27:25,410
Speaker 3: that's where technology in the sense of the modern world sits, right?

457
00:27:25,810 --> 00:27:29,290
Speaker 3: It sits not with the development of how do we

458
00:27:29,369 --> 00:27:34,209
Speaker 3: live alongside, but rather, how do I get more? Now,

459
00:27:34,250 --> 00:27:36,490
Speaker 3: within that is the capacity to say, I use this

460
00:27:36,570 --> 00:27:39,390
Speaker 3: in a different way. I think there is a biblical parallel, right?

461
00:27:39,430 --> 00:27:41,750
Speaker 3: You mentioned the fig leaf and the animal skins. I

462
00:27:42,300 --> 00:27:45,939
Speaker 3: think another version is to think about city. The way

463
00:27:45,980 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 3: that city is introduced in the Old Testament and Genesis,

464
00:27:48,540 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 3: it's not a positive thing. It's in contrast to this

465
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 3: organic reality of the garden of life together, right? Where

466
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,909
Speaker 3: humanity is with animals, which is with plants, which is

467
00:27:57,970 --> 00:28:01,630
Speaker 3: with The larger environment, the water running in the midst

468
00:28:01,690 --> 00:28:05,030
Speaker 3: of everything, this is meant to give you an enmeshed

469
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,060
Speaker 3: idea of life. And the city is inherently, especially in

470
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:13,180
Speaker 3: that setting where you're thinking of a walled-off segment, it's

471
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 3: meant to separate you from all that enmeshment. But it's

472
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 3: not as if the Bible takes that polar opposite image

473
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 3: and that negative image that it starts with and it

474
00:28:24,460 --> 00:28:28,500
Speaker 3: just says, down with city, back to garden.

475
00:28:29,290 --> 00:28:29,530
Speaker 2: Right?

476
00:28:29,869 --> 00:28:33,630
Speaker 3: You now get this image of Zion. And whatever else

477
00:28:33,690 --> 00:28:38,330
Speaker 3: Zion is, it's an image of city reimagined. And that

478
00:28:38,390 --> 00:28:41,130
Speaker 3: image of city reimagined keeps getting more and more content.

479
00:28:41,150 --> 00:28:43,250
Speaker 3: But by the time you get to passages like, I

480
00:28:43,270 --> 00:28:46,710
Speaker 3: believe it's Ezekiel 36, somewhere late in Ezekiel, and especially

481
00:28:46,730 --> 00:28:49,020
Speaker 3: the end of Revelation, but you get hints of it

482
00:28:49,100 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 3: in the Psalms and the Proverbs and in these other places, um,

483
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 3: You get the image both of a new garden, but

484
00:28:55,110 --> 00:28:57,330
Speaker 3: also of a new city, and the two are actually

485
00:28:57,590 --> 00:29:00,790
Speaker 3: two ways of looking at the same image, where it's

486
00:29:00,830 --> 00:29:02,010
Speaker 3: not a walled-off place.

487
00:29:02,310 --> 00:29:03,170
Speaker 4: It's a life together.

488
00:29:05,310 --> 00:29:08,070
Speaker 3: So I want to say that to affirm that there

489
00:29:08,210 --> 00:29:10,090
Speaker 3: are ways in which we can begin to take the

490
00:29:10,130 --> 00:29:14,470
Speaker 3: technology that's designed for one purpose and begin to reimagine it.

491
00:29:15,970 --> 00:29:19,150
Speaker 3: But reimagining might be pretty radical at times. There's some

492
00:29:19,170 --> 00:29:25,470
Speaker 3: things that, when they're created out of the disease of more, again,

493
00:29:25,510 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 3: as the medieval church would call it, then you can't

494
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 3: just simply redeem the disease of more. However, you can

495
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,300
Speaker 3: take it. You can take the camera. You can take

496
00:29:34,340 --> 00:29:36,610
Speaker 3: the microphones. You can take the computer and the internet.

497
00:29:36,930 --> 00:29:41,980
Speaker 3: And rather than use it for propaganda, purposes that are

498
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,260
Speaker 3: pretty violent towards people right you mentioned the pornography industry

499
00:29:45,300 --> 00:29:48,350
Speaker 3: which really is an industry and that says something it's

500
00:29:48,410 --> 00:29:51,650
Speaker 3: violent it's violent to the people that are in it

501
00:29:51,870 --> 00:29:54,130
Speaker 3: whether willfully or not it's violent to the people who

502
00:29:54,170 --> 00:29:56,690
Speaker 3: are placing people in it because it's forming in them

503
00:29:56,810 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 3: the wrong habituses that that reinforce violence, it's violent to

504
00:30:01,340 --> 00:30:05,580
Speaker 3: the people consuming it. Because it forms within you habituses

505
00:30:05,660 --> 00:30:08,479
Speaker 3: that shouldn't be there, right? And the ways in which

506
00:30:08,530 --> 00:30:10,790
Speaker 3: you now begin to look at other people and imagine people,

507
00:30:10,850 --> 00:30:16,070
Speaker 3: or imagine life revolving and pleasure revolving around yourself. That's

508
00:30:16,110 --> 00:30:20,709
Speaker 3: a use, and we can, in this setting, agree that

509
00:30:20,750 --> 00:30:24,130
Speaker 3: it's a wicked use. But we can also speak of

510
00:30:24,150 --> 00:30:27,260
Speaker 3: a positive use of the same technology for something like this.

511
00:30:28,170 --> 00:30:30,660
Speaker 3: But again, that's important to recognize that it You can

512
00:30:30,740 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 3: take some of that stuff. You can't take all of

513
00:30:32,420 --> 00:30:34,510
Speaker 3: that stuff. And that's the discernment process.

514
00:30:34,970 --> 00:30:35,410
Speaker 4: Is that fair?

515
00:30:36,190 --> 00:30:36,469
Speaker 3: It is.

516
00:30:36,490 --> 00:30:37,670
Speaker 2: And I'll throw in.

517
00:30:39,130 --> 00:30:44,030
Speaker 1: So I agree with the avarice and the disease of more.

518
00:30:44,810 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: I want to push it a little bit further back

519
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: and just say, I think so much of that is

520
00:30:49,900 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: rooted in our desire to be independent from God. I

521
00:30:55,300 --> 00:30:59,450
Speaker 1: think that avarice is sort of us saying that I

522
00:30:59,510 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: need to be secure in and of myself. I need

523
00:31:03,060 --> 00:31:05,180
Speaker 1: to have power and influence and a lot of those

524
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,850
Speaker 1: things you mentioned in and of myself. And this is

525
00:31:08,910 --> 00:31:11,310
Speaker 1: how I get that. It's a means to an end.

526
00:31:12,050 --> 00:31:15,489
Speaker 1: And that end is really, I don't want to be

527
00:31:15,530 --> 00:31:17,830
Speaker 1: dependent on God. I would like to live life on

528
00:31:17,870 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: my own terms. Even if I'm giving God a nice

529
00:31:21,340 --> 00:31:24,260
Speaker 1: little head nod, like, hey, thanks a lot. I would

530
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,260
Speaker 1: still really prefer to be able to determine what it

531
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,270
Speaker 1: is that I do, how it is that I do it,

532
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: and make sure that I am sufficiently safe. in my wealth,

533
00:31:35,540 --> 00:31:39,570
Speaker 1: in my holdings, in my power, in my influence, that

534
00:31:39,790 --> 00:31:43,270
Speaker 1: I have a level of quote-unquote control over my own

535
00:31:43,350 --> 00:31:49,090
Speaker 1: life that is brought about by these things that I

536
00:31:49,110 --> 00:31:53,870
Speaker 1: can collect through technologies. Now, framed like that, then I

537
00:31:53,910 --> 00:31:59,460
Speaker 1: think a narrative like David and Goliath can speak to

538
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:00,020
Speaker 1: the way.

539
00:31:59,900 --> 00:32:03,970
Speaker 2: We might think about technology. right?

540
00:32:03,990 --> 00:32:05,950
Speaker 1: So your example of the garden and the city, I

541
00:32:05,990 --> 00:32:09,070
Speaker 1: think is right. I think the city is framed as

542
00:32:09,130 --> 00:32:13,310
Speaker 1: a negative initially. It's sort of this walling off from

543
00:32:13,350 --> 00:32:16,380
Speaker 1: the dangers of a world with which we now no

544
00:32:16,420 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: longer have a harmonious relationship with. And so we're trying

545
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 1: to protect ourselves. So let's build these walls. Let's keep

546
00:32:24,260 --> 00:32:29,070
Speaker 1: those things out. Let's protect ourselves. That then becomes this

547
00:32:29,110 --> 00:32:34,530
Speaker 1: sort of image that is has that re-enmeshed vision of

548
00:32:34,690 --> 00:32:37,250
Speaker 1: the plants and the animals and the people and God

549
00:32:37,390 --> 00:32:38,050
Speaker 1: all together.

550
00:32:39,230 --> 00:32:40,460
Speaker 2: But initially, it isn't that.

551
00:32:41,860 --> 00:32:44,620
Speaker 1: I think the David and Goliath narrative has something interesting

552
00:32:44,660 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: to say to that because David in that narrative is

553
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: given Saul's armor. He's going to go off and fight Goliath.

554
00:32:52,780 --> 00:32:55,100
Speaker 1: David is a shepherd at this time. He's just delivering

555
00:32:55,140 --> 00:32:58,420
Speaker 1: some cheese to his brothers. And he's going to go

556
00:32:58,460 --> 00:33:00,660
Speaker 1: off and battle Goliath. He didn't have any armor. He

557
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,830
Speaker 1: tries Saul's armors on and he says, look, I'm not

558
00:33:03,850 --> 00:33:08,150
Speaker 1: going to wear this. This hasn't been tested. Within the context,

559
00:33:08,210 --> 00:33:11,790
Speaker 1: what's really going on there, I think, is David is saying, look,

560
00:33:13,050 --> 00:33:16,970
Speaker 1: I fought lions and bears as a shepherd and God

561
00:33:17,020 --> 00:33:20,070
Speaker 1: protected me. I didn't have this stuff on. I don't

562
00:33:20,090 --> 00:33:23,590
Speaker 1: understand how to use it. I never needed it before.

563
00:33:24,450 --> 00:33:26,489
Speaker 1: So I don't think I'll need it now. Thank you

564
00:33:26,510 --> 00:33:29,790
Speaker 1: very much. Now, there could have been fitment issues too.

565
00:33:30,910 --> 00:33:32,710
Speaker 1: Like Saul's armor doesn't quite fit David.

566
00:33:32,890 --> 00:33:33,170
Speaker 2: Sure.

567
00:33:33,770 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: But I don't think that's primarily what's happening here. I

568
00:33:36,860 --> 00:33:40,300
Speaker 1: think primarily what is happening here is David is making

569
00:33:40,340 --> 00:33:44,340
Speaker 1: a choice in the moment not to say Israelites should

570
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,300
Speaker 1: never wear armor ever. I think in the moment, what

571
00:33:48,340 --> 00:33:51,610
Speaker 1: David is saying is, no, I'm just going to trust

572
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,470
Speaker 1: God on this one. I don't need the weapons of

573
00:33:55,670 --> 00:33:59,510
Speaker 1: this particular arena to fight this particular enemy.

574
00:33:59,890 --> 00:34:02,170
Speaker 2: God's got me. It's not going to be a problem.

575
00:34:03,290 --> 00:34:08,030
Speaker 1: And it's this radical independence from the technology that is

576
00:34:08,090 --> 00:34:13,049
Speaker 1: ultimately cultivated on David's willingness to depend on God. And

577
00:34:13,070 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 1: in that moment, that singular choice, doesn't say to us,

578
00:34:17,180 --> 00:34:22,549
Speaker 1: never use technology. What it says is be discerning in

579
00:34:22,570 --> 00:34:26,650
Speaker 1: your use of technology such that you don't lose dependence

580
00:34:26,730 --> 00:34:29,810
Speaker 1: on God. And so I think if we sort of

581
00:34:29,890 --> 00:34:34,689
Speaker 1: reframe that, we can get some interesting angles on, yes,

582
00:34:34,790 --> 00:34:36,890
Speaker 1: the disease of more, but then we've got this other

583
00:34:36,989 --> 00:34:40,230
Speaker 1: notion of independence from God and how technology can kind

584
00:34:40,250 --> 00:34:44,299
Speaker 1: of sharpen that tendency within us. that I think are

585
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,980
Speaker 1: really crucial as we're talking about not just, hey, let's

586
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,419
Speaker 1: throw away big tech and go back, like I said,

587
00:34:51,460 --> 00:34:53,460
Speaker 1: go back to Little House on the Prairie days, right,

588
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: where we're surrounded with things and we have no devices.

589
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,870
Speaker 1: I personally would not like that. I don't even like camping, right?

590
00:35:02,190 --> 00:35:05,210
Speaker 1: So that's not fun for me to think about. But

591
00:35:05,230 --> 00:35:07,910
Speaker 1: the reality is then that what we grapple with in

592
00:35:07,950 --> 00:35:12,629
Speaker 1: this moment is are we really, to use your word,

593
00:35:13,030 --> 00:35:17,830
Speaker 1: and meshed with God sufficient that we're not dependent on

594
00:35:17,870 --> 00:35:22,630
Speaker 1: these technologies for safety, security, for life, that we're willing

595
00:35:22,670 --> 00:35:25,950
Speaker 1: to set them aside because we know that as much

596
00:35:26,010 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 1: as the people who produce these technologies might want us

597
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,660
Speaker 1: to think that this is how the world works, we

598
00:35:31,700 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 1: know this is not how the world works. They don't

599
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: ever become passive tools. I think they're always sort of

600
00:35:40,820 --> 00:35:45,529
Speaker 1: formative tools structures in our lives that tend to help

601
00:35:45,590 --> 00:35:46,550
Speaker 1: us forget God.

602
00:35:47,430 --> 00:35:49,489
Speaker 2: Go back to Deuteronomy 8.

603
00:35:49,489 --> 00:35:53,060
Speaker 1: You're going to inherit a land where you drink from

604
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 1: cisterns that you did not dig. You drink from cisterns

605
00:35:57,340 --> 00:35:59,580
Speaker 1: you did not dig. You live in houses you didn't build.

606
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: You're going to eat from fields that you didn't plant.

607
00:36:04,980 --> 00:36:10,140
Speaker 1: There's something about what we have around us that cultivates

608
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,320
Speaker 1: a forgetfulness of what God has given us. And I

609
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:18,150
Speaker 1: think that's part of what technology amplifies in us. It

610
00:36:18,210 --> 00:36:22,310
Speaker 1: gives us a higher capacity to forget God. And as Christians,

611
00:36:22,350 --> 00:36:26,790
Speaker 1: we need to be resisting that capacity, that amplification.

612
00:36:28,070 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's good.

613
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 3: And I want to drive into that. The premise here

614
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,660
Speaker 3: is that this amplification increases the narrowing. And maybe so

615
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,379
Speaker 3: far it's not immediately obvious how, but I think maybe

616
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:46,250
Speaker 3: an example would help. There's a book, and I forget

617
00:36:46,290 --> 00:36:46,950
Speaker 3: the title, it's a.

618
00:36:46,930 --> 00:36:47,710
Speaker 4: Work of history.

619
00:36:47,730 --> 00:36:54,270
Speaker 3: It's working through how the Germans especially, but other countries

620
00:36:54,390 --> 00:37:00,029
Speaker 3: were impacted by the American Civil War in a way

621
00:37:00,050 --> 00:37:02,049
Speaker 3: in which we don't often think about these things. But

622
00:37:02,090 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 3: the impact was specifically that The Civil War being fought over,

623
00:37:06,300 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 3: the question of slavery, and specifically a very ethnically driven

624
00:37:10,219 --> 00:37:21,950
Speaker 3: slavery towards the objectifying of Black people into indentured servitude, right? Now,

625
00:37:22,030 --> 00:37:23,969
Speaker 3: one of the primary crops that was coming out of

626
00:37:23,989 --> 00:37:28,660
Speaker 3: that was the cotton industry, right? The enslaved peoples were

627
00:37:28,700 --> 00:37:32,220
Speaker 3: having to work these cotton farms, and technology was developed

628
00:37:32,260 --> 00:37:38,110
Speaker 3: within that, the cotton gin. Now, ostensibly, again, that cotton

629
00:37:38,150 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 3: gin makes life easier. But in reality, what it does

630
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:48,259
Speaker 3: is it didn't actually end slavery. It focused slavery. And

631
00:37:48,300 --> 00:37:50,900
Speaker 3: it focused it in the midst of all these varieties

632
00:37:50,940 --> 00:37:54,740
Speaker 3: of cotton plants onto a particular kind of cotton plant.

633
00:37:55,010 --> 00:37:56,830
Speaker 3: And the way the texture.

634
00:37:56,410 --> 00:37:59,240
Speaker 4: That the cotton that's produced from it comes out of it.

635
00:37:59,370 --> 00:38:00,870
Speaker 4: And I don't remember the details of it. It's been

636
00:38:00,890 --> 00:38:01,390
Speaker 4: a while now.

637
00:38:01,830 --> 00:38:06,420
Speaker 3: They're just different textures. And that self-selected, in some sense,

638
00:38:06,700 --> 00:38:09,980
Speaker 3: how the fields were planted. It didn't help people who

639
00:38:10,020 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 3: were enslaved. It self-selected how we chose which plants were planted.

640
00:38:16,530 --> 00:38:19,950
Speaker 3: And that's vital here, because this is what enters into

641
00:38:20,730 --> 00:38:25,910
Speaker 3: the conversation how countries like Germany got involved, ancillaries, but

642
00:38:25,969 --> 00:38:27,350
Speaker 3: still involved in the Civil War.

643
00:38:28,890 --> 00:38:29,089
Speaker 1: Why?

644
00:38:29,130 --> 00:38:31,910
Speaker 3: Well, because you already have a global market, and one

645
00:38:31,930 --> 00:38:35,710
Speaker 3: of the Well, in fact, the chief, but also there

646
00:38:35,730 --> 00:38:37,890
Speaker 3: were others, but the chief producer of cotton in the

647
00:38:37,910 --> 00:38:42,710
Speaker 3: world at the time was the American South. But now

648
00:38:42,750 --> 00:38:45,350
Speaker 3: there's a disruption of that supply because of the Civil

649
00:38:45,390 --> 00:38:50,259
Speaker 3: War that affects places, including Germany, but Germany was one

650
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 3: of the people groups that decided that they needed to

651
00:38:53,100 --> 00:38:56,280
Speaker 3: work through this in order to decrease their dependence.

652
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:56,940
Speaker 4: Upon American cotton.

653
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,140
Speaker 3: Now, they looked at countries like India that also produced

654
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 3: a different kind of cotton with a different plant and

655
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 3: therefore a different texture, and they saw that in this

656
00:39:06,900 --> 00:39:11,100
Speaker 3: particular texture that that cotton would not work with the

657
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:16,299
Speaker 3: existing cotton gin. So among other things, Germany had to

658
00:39:16,380 --> 00:39:19,730
Speaker 3: self-select now to further the narrowing of the species of cotton.

659
00:39:19,450 --> 00:39:20,310
Speaker 4: That were out there.

660
00:39:21,650 --> 00:39:23,850
Speaker 3: In order to make it fit what they were doing,

661
00:39:24,370 --> 00:39:27,510
Speaker 3: or what they needed to replace, because it was far

662
00:39:27,590 --> 00:39:31,100
Speaker 3: more expensive and far less efficient for them to use

663
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:36,180
Speaker 3: that language to go demand more out of the Indian

664
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:41,240
Speaker 3: product or the Chinese product. It was far more efficient

665
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 3: to them to in some ways replicate what was going

666
00:39:44,780 --> 00:39:48,050
Speaker 3: on in the American South and that included the narrowing

667
00:39:48,090 --> 00:39:50,930
Speaker 3: of the species of cotton in order to match the

668
00:39:51,010 --> 00:39:57,170
Speaker 3: pre-existent technology now that dictated to them what would now survive. Now,

669
00:39:57,190 --> 00:39:58,859
Speaker 3: there's a lot more to this story. It's a really

670
00:39:58,890 --> 00:40:02,500
Speaker 3: fascinating book. I can get you the title if you're interested.

671
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:03,860
Speaker 3: I've forgotten the title off the top of my head.

672
00:40:03,900 --> 00:40:04,819
Speaker 4: It's somewhere behind me here.

673
00:40:08,380 --> 00:40:09,590
Speaker 3: But the point I want to make from this is

674
00:40:09,610 --> 00:40:13,009
Speaker 3: that it's very similar to the ways in which our

675
00:40:13,230 --> 00:40:18,370
Speaker 3: use of technique within ecclesial context that are very shattered.

676
00:40:18,670 --> 00:40:20,270
Speaker 3: And what I mean by shattered is that we don't

677
00:40:20,290 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 3: have a unified church. We have a lot of different denominations.

678
00:40:25,540 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 3: We have a lot of different sub-denominations. We have those

679
00:40:27,820 --> 00:40:34,259
Speaker 3: denominations that say they're not denominations. And what this has

680
00:40:34,300 --> 00:40:37,090
Speaker 3: brought about is a need, and this is what drives

681
00:40:37,150 --> 00:40:40,590
Speaker 3: the modern enterprise of hermeneutics, the idea of how do

682
00:40:40,630 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 3: we understand the text. It's a desire to to be

683
00:40:44,260 --> 00:40:46,250
Speaker 3: able to say we've once and for all been able

684
00:40:46,430 --> 00:40:50,150
Speaker 3: to determine the technique by which we properly interpret the text,

685
00:40:50,590 --> 00:40:53,069
Speaker 3: and this enables us to get the proper doctrine as

686
00:40:53,150 --> 00:40:56,250
Speaker 3: second-order discourse that we overlay upon the text to help

687
00:40:56,310 --> 00:40:59,450
Speaker 3: us make sense as a map of the text. But

688
00:40:59,530 --> 00:41:01,810
Speaker 3: once you have that technique, and once you have that

689
00:41:01,890 --> 00:41:05,029
Speaker 3: map that comes from that technique, you've now foreclosed on

690
00:41:05,050 --> 00:41:09,890
Speaker 3: the possibilities of meaning. So it enables the further delving

691
00:41:09,969 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 3: into these divisions. So whereas the church, one would think

692
00:41:15,260 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 3: from looking at scripture, is a declaration of the unified

693
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,300
Speaker 3: body of Christ, in practice you have an increasingly fractured

694
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,500
Speaker 3: and even larger wedges being put between them because of

695
00:41:29,540 --> 00:41:33,219
Speaker 3: the ways that technique amplifies it. Now don't hear me

696
00:41:33,260 --> 00:41:36,819
Speaker 3: as saying don't study hermeneutics or that hermeneutics are useless,

697
00:41:37,489 --> 00:41:41,790
Speaker 3: but understand that the moment we put these techniques into practice,

698
00:41:42,450 --> 00:41:47,450
Speaker 3: we've now created very clear lines about what is and

699
00:41:47,489 --> 00:41:49,850
Speaker 3: what is not allowed. And that's how we now get

700
00:41:49,890 --> 00:41:52,049
Speaker 3: these dynamics in which we begin to see things that

701
00:41:52,070 --> 00:41:55,669
Speaker 3: weren't previously heresy as heresy, or we get the very

702
00:41:55,770 --> 00:41:59,940
Speaker 3: narrow ability to declare heresy. Whereas as we talked previously,

703
00:42:01,460 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 3: the early church was very slow to declare heresy.

704
00:42:03,260 --> 00:42:05,060
Speaker 4: It took even decades to declare heresy.

705
00:42:08,500 --> 00:42:12,510
Speaker 1: Yeah. I, I think to, Piggyback on that notion of narrowing.

706
00:42:12,550 --> 00:42:15,110
Speaker 1: If we think about that in today's digital age and

707
00:42:15,150 --> 00:42:17,910
Speaker 1: some of the things that we have going on, we're,

708
00:42:18,630 --> 00:42:20,609
Speaker 1: and I don't want to take this too far, but

709
00:42:20,670 --> 00:42:25,590
Speaker 1: the reality is that we have friends on Facebook.

710
00:42:25,610 --> 00:42:26,609
Speaker 2: We have followers.

711
00:42:28,130 --> 00:42:33,790
Speaker 1: We shoot for influence and reach. We hope for, you know,

712
00:42:33,810 --> 00:42:36,029
Speaker 1: tons of likes on our posts or whatever it is.

713
00:42:39,710 --> 00:42:41,470
Speaker 2: As we do that, we're.

714
00:42:41,310 --> 00:42:46,469
Speaker 1: Not simply picking up the capital of the world, right,

715
00:42:46,510 --> 00:42:49,550
Speaker 1: to gain influence or to do something or to make money.

716
00:42:49,630 --> 00:42:51,770
Speaker 2: Yes, we're doing that also.

717
00:42:52,489 --> 00:42:55,450
Speaker 1: But I think something we've often missed is that we're

718
00:42:55,510 --> 00:43:00,469
Speaker 1: also saying in some subtle way, I follow Paul, I

719
00:43:00,510 --> 00:43:04,850
Speaker 1: follow Apollos, I follow Cephas, I follow Christ, as they

720
00:43:04,890 --> 00:43:06,089
Speaker 1: did in the beginning.

721
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 2: Of 1 Corinthians.

722
00:43:08,050 --> 00:43:11,290
Speaker 1: Because so much of what we've got now out in

723
00:43:11,330 --> 00:43:19,140
Speaker 1: the world is the flashiest, the most influential, the biggest audience,

724
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:25,359
Speaker 1: the most profound content wins. And that is exactly the

725
00:43:26,050 --> 00:43:32,550
Speaker 1: sort of tendency Paul is trying to walk back in Corinth.

726
00:43:33,590 --> 00:43:37,270
Speaker 1: And he's trying to say, look, don't don't get fractured

727
00:43:37,330 --> 00:43:40,330
Speaker 1: around these. Like, I don't think Paul is saying you

728
00:43:40,350 --> 00:43:43,050
Speaker 1: shouldn't like Apollos is preaching better than you like mine.

729
00:43:44,489 --> 00:43:44,709
Speaker 2: Right.

730
00:43:44,989 --> 00:43:46,670
Speaker 1: Everybody can have their own personal preference.

731
00:43:47,750 --> 00:43:50,740
Speaker 4: Clearly preaching was more dynamic, obviously.

732
00:43:51,820 --> 00:43:53,620
Speaker 1: But I, I think at the end of the day,

733
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: what Paul is really saying is look, just because you

734
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:03,720
Speaker 1: prefer it doesn't mean we're disunified. It, it, we're still

735
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: together in this because I didn't, I wasn't crucified for you.

736
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,540
Speaker 1: Neither was Apollos. Neither was like, nobody else was crucified you,

737
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: but Christ. And so we're all one in him have

738
00:44:15,620 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 1: whatever purpose, personal preference you'd like, but don't show partiality, right?

739
00:44:22,020 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 1: Stay united and stop this nonsense of thinking that you

740
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:34,959
Speaker 1: can splinter Christianity and around personalities. And I think that,

741
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,859
Speaker 1: and again, it's not like let's demonize the digital age

742
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,700
Speaker 1: or something like that. That's not what this is. The

743
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:47,710
Speaker 1: point is our tendencies pointed that direction and look at

744
00:44:47,750 --> 00:44:51,170
Speaker 1: where we are now. And I think there's certainly a

745
00:44:51,210 --> 00:44:54,049
Speaker 1: case to be made that at the very least, some

746
00:44:54,150 --> 00:44:58,070
Speaker 1: of us have splintered off and decided we're going to

747
00:44:58,110 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 1: be followers of this person as opposed to this person.

748
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 1: Just a quick example, I can remember being at one

749
00:45:06,420 --> 00:45:10,130
Speaker 1: of my past churches and a group of people, I

750
00:45:10,170 --> 00:45:11,970
Speaker 1: wasn't there when it happened, but a group of people

751
00:45:12,010 --> 00:45:15,989
Speaker 1: had just left because the elders of the church had

752
00:45:16,030 --> 00:45:19,610
Speaker 1: made a decision that was in conflict with the teachings

753
00:45:19,910 --> 00:45:23,209
Speaker 1: of a national pastor with a radio ministry and.

754
00:45:23,610 --> 00:45:24,270
Speaker 2: Lots of books.

755
00:45:25,570 --> 00:45:28,879
Speaker 1: And this group of people were very much committed to

756
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,830
Speaker 1: that pastor's teachings. And so when the elders of the

757
00:45:32,890 --> 00:45:37,270
Speaker 1: local congregation made a decision that they perceived to be

758
00:45:37,550 --> 00:45:44,700
Speaker 1: in conflict with this other pastor's teaching, they left. On

759
00:45:44,739 --> 00:45:46,620
Speaker 1: the face of it, you could sit back and say, yeah,

760
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,500
Speaker 1: the local church is never perfect either.

761
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:49,500
Speaker 2: Agreed.

762
00:45:51,900 --> 00:45:54,700
Speaker 1: The problem wasn't that the local church wasn't perfect here.

763
00:45:54,860 --> 00:46:00,509
Speaker 1: The problem was that the local church the body of

764
00:46:00,590 --> 00:46:03,250
Speaker 1: people who had been called on to discern within the

765
00:46:03,310 --> 00:46:07,750
Speaker 1: congregation and to lead that congregation forward, their authority was

766
00:46:07,790 --> 00:46:10,450
Speaker 1: being diminished by someone who'd never set foot in the

767
00:46:10,510 --> 00:46:15,730
Speaker 1: church in his entire life. It had been trumped by

768
00:46:16,489 --> 00:46:20,710
Speaker 1: abstract content that had been put out and was not

769
00:46:20,770 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 1: wrestling with any of the local dynamics that the elders

770
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:30,589
Speaker 1: were actually dealing with. this group had chosen someone they'd

771
00:46:30,660 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: probably never met. And if they had met him only

772
00:46:34,060 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: in passing, I don't think they were close friends or confidants, right?

773
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 1: But they opted for him over these people who had

774
00:46:42,460 --> 00:46:44,550
Speaker 1: been in the trenches of the ministry of the local church.

775
00:46:46,030 --> 00:46:48,629
Speaker 1: I think that's sort of a species of what we

776
00:46:49,050 --> 00:46:52,589
Speaker 1: often see when we talk about this splintering and that

777
00:46:52,650 --> 00:46:55,299
Speaker 1: lack of unification. So it's just another example of the

778
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:59,410
Speaker 1: way that our tendencies tend to be magnified As we

779
00:46:59,530 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: interact with technology and the narrowing that can occur because

780
00:47:05,219 --> 00:47:08,020
Speaker 1: we stop thinking, how is it that we can remain

781
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:12,879
Speaker 1: unified within this setting? And we begin to think, who's

782
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 1: the best person for me to follow? And those are

783
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:18,029
Speaker 1: two slightly different questions.

784
00:47:18,050 --> 00:47:20,750
Speaker 2: They may be related. I don't want to like polarize those.

785
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:23,360
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, there's something to

786
00:47:23,410 --> 00:47:26,870
Speaker 1: be said of how do I maintain unity? How do

787
00:47:26,910 --> 00:47:31,170
Speaker 1: we maintain unity as Christians within this really diversified context

788
00:47:31,230 --> 00:47:33,709
Speaker 1: in which we have all the content in the world,

789
00:47:33,770 --> 00:47:35,489
Speaker 1: including this podcast, to listen to?

790
00:47:37,110 --> 00:47:38,410
Speaker 2: How do we remain unified?

791
00:47:39,270 --> 00:47:41,589
Speaker 1: And to some degree, I think it's the responsibility of

792
00:47:42,010 --> 00:47:43,910
Speaker 1: the people who are putting the content out to make

793
00:47:43,969 --> 00:47:46,130
Speaker 1: sure that they're pushing people back to the local church

794
00:47:46,790 --> 00:47:50,569
Speaker 1: to whatever extent that they can. Like, don't be the

795
00:47:50,630 --> 00:47:55,350
Speaker 1: replacement for the, you know, the things that are going

796
00:47:55,469 --> 00:47:58,890
Speaker 1: on in your local congregation. But I also think it's

797
00:47:59,090 --> 00:48:01,529
Speaker 1: on the people who are listening to sit back and say,

798
00:48:01,780 --> 00:48:04,319
Speaker 1: I'm taking this as an input because I'm interested and

799
00:48:04,380 --> 00:48:07,180
Speaker 1: I like it. But at the end of the day,

800
00:48:07,260 --> 00:48:10,900
Speaker 1: I'm still going to participate locally in ways that may

801
00:48:10,940 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 1: be informed by the content I'm listening to, but not

802
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:17,739
Speaker 1: in ways that allow the content I'm listening to to trump.

803
00:48:19,650 --> 00:48:22,110
Speaker 2: What's going on in the local congregation. I hope that's clear.

804
00:48:24,010 --> 00:48:26,009
Speaker 4: I think it was. Can I try to drive that

805
00:48:26,510 --> 00:48:26,989
Speaker 4: a little further?

806
00:48:27,010 --> 00:48:27,630
Speaker 2: Yeah, please.

807
00:48:27,910 --> 00:48:31,910
Speaker 3: Pull together these threads. The silly statement that we have

808
00:48:32,219 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 3: that's actually quite true and meaningful, all roads lead to Rome.

809
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:39,460
Speaker 3: And we can join that with when in Rome, do

810
00:48:39,500 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 3: as the Romans. Seem like two separate statements, but I

811
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,060
Speaker 3: think actually are deeply intricately related because what we mean

812
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:49,620
Speaker 3: by that is that when Rome conquered, Rome made sure

813
00:48:49,660 --> 00:48:53,910
Speaker 3: the infrastructure was built to make sure that it was

814
00:48:53,950 --> 00:49:00,090
Speaker 3: the center. And the ways in which Romans saw proper

815
00:49:00,190 --> 00:49:04,589
Speaker 3: acting within that theater is what it means then to say,

816
00:49:04,610 --> 00:49:08,710
Speaker 3: when in Rome, do as the Romans, right? It's an

817
00:49:08,790 --> 00:49:13,009
Speaker 3: absorbing into itself or an encircling of the rest of

818
00:49:13,030 --> 00:49:14,750
Speaker 3: the peoples of the earth and the creatures of the

819
00:49:14,810 --> 00:49:18,190
Speaker 3: earth and the lands of the earth around themselves, right?

820
00:49:18,730 --> 00:49:21,779
Speaker 3: that's a technique but in then the development of technologies

821
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,760
Speaker 3: to make that happen whether they be military technologies economic

822
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 3: technologies mechanical technologies to build roads and to build ships

823
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:31,819
Speaker 3: and things like that and the same sort of thing

824
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:35,460
Speaker 3: we can think of in the modern world right the

825
00:49:35,700 --> 00:49:36,299
Speaker 3: the act of.

826
00:49:37,940 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 4: Global colonialism.

827
00:49:40,590 --> 00:49:44,690
Speaker 3: Entailed the development of technologies to make that possible, some

828
00:49:44,730 --> 00:49:49,230
Speaker 3: of which already existed to battle amongst themselves already in

829
00:49:49,510 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 3: the European landscape. But it entails the development of more

830
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:56,420
Speaker 3: technologies to account for the new landscapes that are being

831
00:49:56,540 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 3: drawn into this, but that then therefore means the building

832
00:50:01,219 --> 00:50:05,420
Speaker 3: of infrastructure and the building of an economic technique to

833
00:50:05,460 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 3: make all these things possible. All that is precursors to

834
00:50:09,130 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 3: to thinking about how the United States then began to

835
00:50:11,700 --> 00:50:15,340
Speaker 3: take over the center of that, which then bends the infrastructures,

836
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:21,500
Speaker 3: the flights of travel, accordingly, to the U.S., that now

837
00:50:21,580 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 3: made that effect apparent to Germany by the time you

838
00:50:24,780 --> 00:50:28,710
Speaker 3: get to the cotton gin instance, that they have to adapt.

839
00:50:29,930 --> 00:50:32,950
Speaker 3: And what had already been narrowed from them now entailed

840
00:50:33,310 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 3: the development of technology that narrowed things further, which meant

841
00:50:37,420 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 3: that the Germans then further narrowed things by working from

842
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:47,300
Speaker 3: within these landscapes, right? Which carries within it, undoubtedly, the

843
00:50:47,340 --> 00:50:51,750
Speaker 3: development of further technologies that further solidify the narrowing. And

844
00:50:51,770 --> 00:50:53,870
Speaker 3: I think the way that that relates specifically to what

845
00:50:53,890 --> 00:50:57,950
Speaker 3: you're talking about is you mentioned social media. Social media

846
00:50:58,110 --> 00:51:02,969
Speaker 3: lives within a situation or an enterprise in which the

847
00:51:03,030 --> 00:51:07,870
Speaker 3: goal here is ultimately to further the capital for the

848
00:51:07,930 --> 00:51:12,069
Speaker 3: investors in, say, Facebook and the owner of Facebook, which

849
00:51:12,130 --> 00:51:15,540
Speaker 3: is why it becomes somewhat morally neutral for them to

850
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:21,340
Speaker 3: consider it important when untruths are spread through Facebook via

851
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:24,219
Speaker 3: their algorithm. There's been a lot of debate over that

852
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:26,400
Speaker 3: and what is the untruth and what is not the untruth.

853
00:51:26,460 --> 00:51:27,900
Speaker 3: There's no need to get into that just now, but

854
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:33,720
Speaker 3: that becomes a conversation because that is a morally insignificant

855
00:51:34,610 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 3: issue to the larger agenda of what a social.

856
00:51:37,900 --> 00:51:38,779
Speaker 4: Media company is.

857
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 3: But now when you take the sorts of narrowing that's

858
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:47,460
Speaker 3: already going through the technique in biblical and theological scholarship

859
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:52,860
Speaker 3: that further pronounces the differences between ecclesial traditions, that further

860
00:51:52,940 --> 00:51:57,020
Speaker 3: pronounces a wedge between ecclesial traditions, and now you add

861
00:51:57,060 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 3: to that this other technology that's morally unconcerned with the

862
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 3: way the wedge is get driven so long as you

863
00:52:06,060 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 3: get people more and more interested in the technology to

864
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:13,839
Speaker 3: follow the algorithm, to consume more material that drives them

865
00:52:13,980 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 3: further into the bifurcation, further into the divisions. That works

866
00:52:18,340 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 3: alongside as a follow-up technology. It's a Rhodes of sort, right?

867
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 3: It's the infrastructure, the building of Rhodes that solidifies what

868
00:52:28,540 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 3: might otherwise have been a helpful, even if over-pronounced conversation

869
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 3: in hermeneutics. So now you get the vitriol in it.

870
00:52:37,350 --> 00:52:38,890
Speaker 3: And what you end up with is a community in

871
00:52:38,910 --> 00:52:42,890
Speaker 3: the church that unfortunately doesn't look like the church that

872
00:52:43,510 --> 00:52:45,950
Speaker 3: we see advocated for in the New Testament, even if

873
00:52:46,010 --> 00:52:48,390
Speaker 3: not perfectly present in the New Testament, advocated for in

874
00:52:48,410 --> 00:52:49,020
Speaker 3: the New Testament.

875
00:52:50,739 --> 00:52:53,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting. I just wrote a piece.

876
00:52:54,320 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 1: So right now, XAI, which is Grok, essentially, it's the

877
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:06,069
Speaker 1: company that owns Grok, is suing Minnesota because Minnesota put

878
00:53:06,090 --> 00:53:09,870
Speaker 1: a law in place pretty recently, actually. I think it

879
00:53:09,890 --> 00:53:12,790
Speaker 1: was supposed to go in effect the 1st of August.

880
00:53:14,550 --> 00:53:17,470
Speaker 1: I'm not sure right as I sit here now whether

881
00:53:17,610 --> 00:53:20,800
Speaker 1: that actually went into effect. The lawsuit was intended, I think,

882
00:53:20,860 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 1: to get a judge to put a hold on the

883
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:26,780
Speaker 1: implementation of the law. But the law essentially was this.

884
00:53:26,980 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 1: It was going to hold platforms, apps, the producers of technology,

885
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:38,790
Speaker 1: the holders of technology, Liable for giving users the ability

886
00:53:38,870 --> 00:53:43,509
Speaker 1: to nudify images of real people. Oh, wow.

887
00:53:44,510 --> 00:53:46,760
Speaker 2: And so this has been going on.

888
00:53:47,219 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 1: As I look more into it, you find out that

889
00:53:49,820 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 1: people were using Grok's quote unquote spicy mode to create

890
00:53:56,120 --> 00:54:00,299
Speaker 1: these sorts of images already. There have been many, many

891
00:54:00,489 --> 00:54:03,690
Speaker 1: of these sorts of images created, including many of children.

892
00:54:04,250 --> 00:54:07,230
Speaker 1: There's actually a class action lawsuit against Grok because these

893
00:54:07,330 --> 00:54:12,310
Speaker 1: kids have been images of these children have been created.

894
00:54:12,489 --> 00:54:15,109
Speaker 1: And once they're created, of course, they can spread around

895
00:54:15,140 --> 00:54:19,100
Speaker 1: the Internet as much as they'd like. Part of my

896
00:54:19,140 --> 00:54:20,800
Speaker 1: conclusion in the article was.

897
00:54:22,420 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 2: Why did we need any of this? Yeah. I the lawsuit,

898
00:54:29,180 --> 00:54:32,610
Speaker 2: the basis of the lawsuit was freedom of speech.

899
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:38,070
Speaker 1: Right? They're arguing that the law infringes on the right

900
00:54:38,910 --> 00:54:44,250
Speaker 1: of people to speak freely and have free expression. My

901
00:54:44,290 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 1: comment in the article was just because the government has

902
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:52,700
Speaker 1: committed to allowing freedom of speech doesn't mean that any

903
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 1: given technology platform has to maximize that speech. It doesn't

904
00:54:57,500 --> 00:55:01,730
Speaker 1: have to maximize that expression. And so there's a, a

905
00:55:03,570 --> 00:55:07,290
Speaker 1: question that needs to be asked. Why do we need this?

906
00:55:09,030 --> 00:55:12,700
Speaker 1: What purpose is it really serving? You know, do we

907
00:55:12,780 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 1: really need to drop our marketing costs by 80 to 90%

908
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:20,900
Speaker 1: because we can produce AI generated images to such an

909
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 1: extent that we're handing deviant people a tool that they

910
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:28,840
Speaker 1: can use to create sexualized images of children?

911
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:33,090
Speaker 2: I'm okay paying more.

912
00:55:36,770 --> 00:55:39,630
Speaker 1: I just find it to be sort of an interesting

913
00:55:39,710 --> 00:55:43,029
Speaker 1: test case to what we're talking about is that what

914
00:55:43,050 --> 00:55:47,469
Speaker 1: we've tended to do is we've tended to assume the technology.

915
00:55:46,910 --> 00:55:48,180
Speaker 2: Really needs to be there.

916
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:53,299
Speaker 1: And then live with whatever negative consequences come out of

917
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:58,819
Speaker 1: it and buffer them, create laws and policies that are

918
00:55:58,860 --> 00:56:03,260
Speaker 1: trying to stop some of these things All while real

919
00:56:03,620 --> 00:56:10,580
Speaker 1: people are being injured along the way. I have zero

920
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:15,100
Speaker 1: idea why you would ever need a spicy mode. It

921
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:20,930
Speaker 1: seems unnecessary. Other platforms, as I did the research, they

922
00:56:20,969 --> 00:56:23,609
Speaker 1: wouldn't allow these things to happen. You'd have to really

923
00:56:23,670 --> 00:56:26,830
Speaker 1: work to pass their safeguards to get something, anything like

924
00:56:26,850 --> 00:56:27,510
Speaker 1: this created.

925
00:56:29,250 --> 00:56:31,810
Speaker 2: Grok's spicy mode. pretty much allowed it.

926
00:56:34,510 --> 00:56:37,820
Speaker 1: And so as we think about this sort of narrowing, right,

927
00:56:39,540 --> 00:56:42,940
Speaker 1: what I see happening is something that Mark Lewis describes

928
00:56:42,980 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 1: in his description of addiction. And he basically says this,

929
00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:54,650
Speaker 1: an addict's world always gets smaller because they're starting to

930
00:56:54,730 --> 00:56:57,950
Speaker 1: jettison the people who are saying, whoa, whoa, timeout, you

931
00:56:57,969 --> 00:57:02,280
Speaker 1: don't need that next fix. They're jettisoning the people who

932
00:57:02,460 --> 00:57:04,660
Speaker 1: are saying, I'm not going to give you money so

933
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:07,740
Speaker 1: that you can just go buy drugs. And they're globbing

934
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:10,140
Speaker 1: on to the people who can get them that next

935
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 1: fix or who will give them that much more money.

936
00:57:12,260 --> 00:57:14,410
Speaker 1: And it eventually narrows down so it's just them and

937
00:57:14,430 --> 00:57:19,910
Speaker 1: their addiction. And I see that tendency in us as

938
00:57:19,970 --> 00:57:24,870
Speaker 1: we're using these technologies. I see us letting other people

939
00:57:24,930 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 1: be injured. So in the name of progress, in the

940
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:31,070
Speaker 1: name of rights, in the name of free speech, And

941
00:57:31,110 --> 00:57:35,110
Speaker 1: I just sort of sit back and wonder, given everything

942
00:57:35,130 --> 00:57:38,170
Speaker 1: we've said in the episode, right, that I'm not anti-technology,

943
00:57:38,230 --> 00:57:39,530
Speaker 1: that I don't think we should get rid of all

944
00:57:39,590 --> 00:57:40,050
Speaker 1: this stuff.

945
00:57:40,890 --> 00:57:43,050
Speaker 2: But it also seems very, very.

946
00:57:42,850 --> 00:57:47,790
Speaker 1: Clear to me that we're extremely willing, and I use

947
00:57:47,830 --> 00:57:51,690
Speaker 1: these in the article, we're extremely willing to allow technology

948
00:57:51,750 --> 00:57:57,450
Speaker 1: companies to let oxen that have gored before just roam

949
00:57:57,510 --> 00:58:02,710
Speaker 1: around our cities. We're very happy to let tech companies

950
00:58:02,770 --> 00:58:06,820
Speaker 1: build platforms without a parapet around the roof, right? And

951
00:58:06,860 --> 00:58:09,980
Speaker 1: those are illusions of these Old Testament laws that were

952
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:16,500
Speaker 1: intended to protect people, not retard advancement, right? Not to

953
00:58:16,540 --> 00:58:23,700
Speaker 1: stop progress, but to protect people within the community. The

954
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 1: parapets aren't working. The goring oxes are sort of roaming

955
00:58:28,020 --> 00:58:32,090
Speaker 1: about the countryside. And you just sit back and you say,

956
00:58:32,810 --> 00:58:36,010
Speaker 1: how is this not foreseen as something that was going

957
00:58:36,140 --> 00:58:40,520
Speaker 1: to happen? It's not a possibility. It's not even a probability.

958
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:45,100
Speaker 1: It's a certainty that once you give everyday users with

959
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:49,660
Speaker 1: absolutely no vetting the ability to make sexualized images of

960
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:53,070
Speaker 1: real people, that they are going to produce these things

961
00:58:53,190 --> 00:58:54,910
Speaker 1: of real people and of children.

962
00:58:58,030 --> 00:59:01,660
Speaker 2: What are we doing? And what are we living with?

963
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 1: And how is it that this has gotten so out

964
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 1: of control that while there will be outrage and I

965
00:59:08,860 --> 00:59:17,190
Speaker 1: am animated about this issue, I don't see anything stopping

966
00:59:17,230 --> 00:59:22,250
Speaker 1: the train. This is where I think Christians need to

967
00:59:22,330 --> 00:59:24,930
Speaker 1: recognize that we're frogs.

968
00:59:24,610 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 2: Being boiled in the pot of water.

969
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:32,260
Speaker 1: And that We really have to be smarter about the

970
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:36,470
Speaker 1: way we interact with technology, the way we're formed by technology.

971
00:59:36,890 --> 00:59:39,090
Speaker 1: And we need to recognize that there are just some

972
00:59:39,170 --> 00:59:47,110
Speaker 1: things that the progress is not worth it. It just

973
00:59:47,170 --> 00:59:51,730
Speaker 1: isn't worth it. But we've become so accustomed to that

974
00:59:51,770 --> 00:59:54,669
Speaker 1: sort of progress. You know, we've had the internet now for,

975
00:59:55,450 --> 00:59:57,290
Speaker 1: I don't know, it started coming in. I can remember

976
00:59:57,350 --> 01:00:02,530
Speaker 1: booking my honeymoon. And, uh, you know, the late nineties

977
01:00:03,050 --> 01:00:04,390
Speaker 1: on the internet, right?

978
01:00:04,890 --> 01:00:05,670
Speaker 2: Dial up modem.

979
01:00:06,970 --> 01:00:10,290
Speaker 1: So we've had this for a while and we've just

980
01:00:10,330 --> 01:00:14,430
Speaker 1: sort of lived with the downside of ordinary everyday people.

981
01:00:15,190 --> 01:00:17,570
Speaker 1: This isn't the first instance. Grok is not the first

982
01:00:17,630 --> 01:00:20,260
Speaker 1: company that's had this sort of thing happen. There's a

983
01:00:20,260 --> 01:00:23,300
Speaker 1: whole documentary on, uh, I believe it was, I think

984
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:28,410
Speaker 1: it was on Netflix on, um, the pornography sites allowing

985
01:00:30,410 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 1: videos to be uploaded of consensual sex acts, but non-consensual uploads.

986
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:40,320
Speaker 2: And so these women.

987
01:00:40,140 --> 01:00:45,180
Speaker 1: Are out there on the internet, you know, these videos

988
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:47,540
Speaker 1: are out there of these women who are having sex

989
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:52,150
Speaker 1: and they can't get them taken down. Like we're living

990
01:00:52,190 --> 01:00:56,230
Speaker 1: with that. it's not all about sex, right? That's just

991
01:00:56,250 --> 01:00:58,750
Speaker 1: sort of the sensational parts that tend to sort of

992
01:00:59,210 --> 01:01:04,770
Speaker 1: get our hackles up. It's like that in almost every instance.

993
01:01:04,970 --> 01:01:07,930
Speaker 1: And I just don't think we've thought through enough. How

994
01:01:07,970 --> 01:01:11,830
Speaker 1: do we reign this thing in? And I think part

995
01:01:11,870 --> 01:01:14,770
Speaker 1: of that is because we become too dependent on it already.

996
01:01:15,570 --> 01:01:19,090
Speaker 1: That would be my concern is that we've become too

997
01:01:19,130 --> 01:01:20,150
Speaker 1: dependent on it already.

998
01:01:22,050 --> 01:01:24,130
Speaker 2: So, um, I don't know.

999
01:01:24,150 --> 01:01:25,610
Speaker 1: I don't have a whole lot of point to that,

1000
01:01:25,650 --> 01:01:28,330
Speaker 1: I guess. I'll throw a link to my article in

1001
01:01:28,370 --> 01:01:32,510
Speaker 1: the show notes. But that is my concern, is that

1002
01:01:32,570 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 1: we've become too dependent on the technology already and that

1003
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:39,160
Speaker 1: we've just bought into a notion of progress at any

1004
01:01:39,220 --> 01:01:45,540
Speaker 1: cost that is not commensurate with what we believe in

1005
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:47,780
Speaker 1: our convictions.

1006
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:53,210
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think what you're saying underscores that. To say

1007
01:01:53,250 --> 01:01:55,590
Speaker 3: that technology is neutral is to miss the point.

1008
01:01:55,590 --> 01:01:57,590
Speaker 2: 100%.

1009
01:01:57,890 --> 01:02:01,530
Speaker 3: Technology belongs to a system or to a story and

1010
01:02:01,610 --> 01:02:04,190
Speaker 3: is designed for a reason. And what we really need

1011
01:02:04,210 --> 01:02:10,620
Speaker 3: to do is interrogate that story, that system. And I

1012
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:12,580
Speaker 3: think that's what you're getting at by saying, why do

1013
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:13,200
Speaker 3: we need this?

1014
01:02:13,220 --> 01:02:16,760
Speaker 4: That's right. And we have to carry that through.

1015
01:02:17,580 --> 01:02:19,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, why do we need this? Why is it that

1016
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:21,760
Speaker 3: the people who develop it need this? Why is it

1017
01:02:21,780 --> 01:02:24,930
Speaker 3: that they're so concerned with a certain notion of freedom

1018
01:02:25,010 --> 01:02:28,370
Speaker 3: of speech to make sure that this technology exists? What

1019
01:02:28,410 --> 01:02:32,090
Speaker 3: is it that they're gaining? And we should interrogate within that.

1020
01:02:32,750 --> 01:02:35,110
Speaker 3: I know you weren't meaning it this way. You're using

1021
01:02:35,130 --> 01:02:37,590
Speaker 3: the term more generally, but when we call these things

1022
01:02:37,710 --> 01:02:41,310
Speaker 3: progress and we call what we're moving towards progress, progressing

1023
01:02:41,350 --> 01:02:41,970
Speaker 3: towards what?

1024
01:02:41,990 --> 01:02:42,060
Speaker 4: Why?

1025
01:02:45,410 --> 01:02:48,800
Speaker 3: And that inherently is not a neutral statement to say

1026
01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 3: we're progressing. You're making a declaration. You're saying something about creation,

1027
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:57,080
Speaker 3: simply put, that this is a notion of maturity and

1028
01:02:57,140 --> 01:02:58,940
Speaker 3: creation that we are building towards.

1029
01:02:59,740 --> 01:03:00,030
Speaker 2: Is it?

1030
01:03:01,690 --> 01:03:04,130
Speaker 3: And that's what Christians should push against. And I don't

1031
01:03:04,170 --> 01:03:07,670
Speaker 3: mean this in the sense of, I think very little

1032
01:03:07,810 --> 01:03:12,450
Speaker 3: pushing against stops the stuff from happening. And new normalcies

1033
01:03:12,530 --> 01:03:13,790
Speaker 3: come out of each one of these things.

1034
01:03:13,870 --> 01:03:18,360
Speaker 4: And I'm not looking here at results-based discussions.

1035
01:03:18,590 --> 01:03:20,880
Speaker 3: I'm not looking at this as it's a failure if

1036
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:26,300
Speaker 3: eventually this just becomes normative. No, if you don't struggle,

1037
01:03:26,980 --> 01:03:31,080
Speaker 3: that's the failure. We don't ultimately have control over the

1038
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:34,470
Speaker 3: structures and the architects of a so-called progress and what

1039
01:03:34,510 --> 01:03:38,430
Speaker 3: they mean by progress. But there's no saltiness. There's no

1040
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:42,090
Speaker 3: it's the lamp hidden under the bushel if it's just

1041
01:03:42,150 --> 01:03:45,950
Speaker 3: simply don't interrogate and just simply accept.

1042
01:03:46,950 --> 01:03:47,169
Speaker 2: Right?

1043
01:03:47,290 --> 01:03:51,450
Speaker 3: And I think that's what's at stake. And the ramifications

1044
01:03:51,530 --> 01:03:55,919
Speaker 3: for it are that instead of raging against the right

1045
01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:59,280
Speaker 3: questions and right issues and right structures, we find ourselves

1046
01:03:59,300 --> 01:04:05,680
Speaker 3: just infighting because that technology further has amplified our divisions

1047
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:09,950
Speaker 3: and made of those divisions more than they should have

1048
01:04:09,970 --> 01:04:10,870
Speaker 3: been or needed to be.

1049
01:04:12,660 --> 01:04:16,660
Speaker 2: Agreed. And I agree with your, you were reading me

1050
01:04:16,740 --> 01:04:18,080
Speaker 2: right on progress.

1051
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:22,120
Speaker 1: Um, I think it was Chesterton that talks about progress

1052
01:04:22,180 --> 01:04:24,560
Speaker 1: or maybe it was CS Lewis, right? The person who's

1053
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:28,180
Speaker 1: going to advance down the path. Uh, sometimes the person

1054
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:30,900
Speaker 1: who's making the most progress down the path is perhaps

1055
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:33,160
Speaker 1: the one who turns around because he realizes he's going

1056
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:37,000
Speaker 1: the wrong way. And so progress is always relative to

1057
01:04:37,060 --> 01:04:40,960
Speaker 1: a standard. We have to understand what the destination is

1058
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:43,380
Speaker 1: to really understand whether we're getting closer to it or not.

1059
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:47,420
Speaker 1: And I think oftentimes what we're missing in our Christian

1060
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:51,760
Speaker 1: imagination is, are we getting closer to that standard or not?

1061
01:04:52,140 --> 01:04:53,900
Speaker 1: I think technology can be a part of that. I

1062
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:56,380
Speaker 1: think it can be a part of living into the

1063
01:04:56,400 --> 01:05:00,340
Speaker 1: pattern that is Jesus Christ. But I also think it

1064
01:05:00,380 --> 01:05:03,780
Speaker 1: can deeply skew our understanding of what it means to

1065
01:05:03,820 --> 01:05:06,860
Speaker 1: be human, to live in God's creation, to love God

1066
01:05:06,900 --> 01:05:09,310
Speaker 1: and to love one another's. And that's what we're really

1067
01:05:09,410 --> 01:05:12,970
Speaker 1: ultimately trying to avoid. I go back to this a lot.

1068
01:05:13,030 --> 01:05:15,860
Speaker 1: We talked about it when we talked about biblical manhood

1069
01:05:15,910 --> 01:05:20,340
Speaker 1: as well. Our technology use should emerge from discipleship.

1070
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:23,600
Speaker 2: It just should.

1071
01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:27,220
Speaker 1: And I know that's like sort of ambiguous and maybe

1072
01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:28,940
Speaker 1: a little pithy, but at the end of the day,

1073
01:05:30,580 --> 01:05:34,980
Speaker 1: it's a way of saying we don't retrofit our Christianity

1074
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:40,250
Speaker 1: to technology. We, we, allow our use of technology to

1075
01:05:40,290 --> 01:05:44,530
Speaker 1: be driven by our underlying commitments to God, to his word,

1076
01:05:44,770 --> 01:05:49,050
Speaker 1: to one another, to creation. That's how we think about technology.

1077
01:05:49,090 --> 01:05:51,790
Speaker 1: Those are the starting points. Those aren't negotiables.

1078
01:05:52,860 --> 01:05:53,640
Speaker 2: And so as we.

1079
01:05:53,550 --> 01:05:57,120
Speaker 1: Learn to live under the authority of Christ, ultimately we'll

1080
01:05:57,160 --> 01:05:59,760
Speaker 1: have to think through how we use technology and we'll

1081
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:00,540
Speaker 1: get that wrong.

1082
01:06:02,040 --> 01:06:03,860
Speaker 2: But that's what we should be doing.

1083
01:06:04,630 --> 01:06:06,410
Speaker 1: We should be thinking through what does it mean to

1084
01:06:06,450 --> 01:06:09,790
Speaker 1: live under Christ's authority as we use this technology? What

1085
01:06:09,810 --> 01:06:13,410
Speaker 1: does it mean to live under Christ's authority? And does

1086
01:06:13,450 --> 01:06:17,370
Speaker 1: that allow me to use this technology? Right? How are

1087
01:06:17,410 --> 01:06:20,450
Speaker 1: these technologies pushing against Christ's authority and how should I

1088
01:06:20,490 --> 01:06:24,140
Speaker 1: be resisting them? All of those sort of questions, I think,

1089
01:06:24,180 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 1: is what I mean when I say our use of

1090
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:32,180
Speaker 1: technology should emerge from discipleship. Our understanding of technology should

1091
01:06:32,220 --> 01:06:38,410
Speaker 1: emerge from discipleship. Um, I oddly think, I mean, we're,

1092
01:06:38,510 --> 01:06:41,250
Speaker 1: we're way over time. We're, we're getting into close to

1093
01:06:41,290 --> 01:06:43,110
Speaker 1: an hour 10. So I'm going to close this off,

1094
01:06:43,230 --> 01:06:46,010
Speaker 1: but I think we just sort of scratched the surface

1095
01:06:46,070 --> 01:06:50,100
Speaker 1: on this issue of technology and, uh, we'll probably circle

1096
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:52,460
Speaker 1: back to it. I think this is just such a

1097
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:56,180
Speaker 1: crucial topic and it's one that, um, I think both

1098
01:06:56,220 --> 01:07:00,130
Speaker 1: you and I have come at from completely different ways, honestly. Um,

1099
01:07:00,270 --> 01:07:04,400
Speaker 1: you know, your emphasis on Tolkien and nature and creation

1100
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:06,500
Speaker 1: and all those kinds of good things really have deep

1101
01:07:06,540 --> 01:07:10,040
Speaker 1: things to say about technology. And, uh, me just from

1102
01:07:10,340 --> 01:07:13,320
Speaker 1: coming out of online education and thinking through a lot

1103
01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:16,780
Speaker 1: of this digital technology that we're interacting with. Um, I

1104
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:19,920
Speaker 1: think there's, there'll be rich conversations, but, uh, this one's

1105
01:07:19,940 --> 01:07:24,570
Speaker 1: been great. Really appreciated the interaction Ashish and, um, hope

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01:07:24,950 --> 01:07:29,720
Speaker 1: everybody enjoyed it. Um, we'll sign off till next time and, uh,

1107
01:07:29,750 --> 01:07:32,050
Speaker 1: thanks for listening and we'll see you on the next

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01:07:32,110 --> 01:07:33,070
Speaker 1: episode of thinking Christian.

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01:07:33,390 --> 01:07:33,730
Speaker 2: Take care.

1110
01:07:34,450 --> 01:07:35,930
Speaker 1: Just want to take a second to thank the team

1111
01:07:35,990 --> 01:07:38,380
Speaker 1: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the

1112
01:07:38,420 --> 01:07:42,020
Speaker 1: Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find

1113
01:07:42,100 --> 01:07:45,470
Speaker 1: dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got

1114
01:07:45,510 --> 01:07:48,330
Speaker 1: shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.