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Speaker 1: What do you think is the biggest misunderstanding people have

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Speaker 1: about Scientology?

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Speaker 2: As Scientologists, we are just very normal everyday people. It's

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Speaker 2: very likely that people have interacted with a Scientologist and

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Speaker 2: you just might not even know that that person was

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Speaker 2: a Scientologist.

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Speaker 1: What does Scientology believe about the existence of heaven and hell?

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Speaker 2: We don't necessarily have that as part of our belief.

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Speaker 2: scriptures or beliefs. In Scientology, we believe that you are

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Speaker 2: a spiritual being and as a spirit, you are an

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Speaker 2: immortal spiritual being. So you have lived before and you

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Speaker 2: will live again into the future.

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Speaker 1: The question you all knew was coming, who Scientologists believe

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Speaker 1: Jesus was?

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Speaker 3: Scientology as a whole, we don't have, it's not part

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Speaker 3: of our scripture to have any specific belief about Jesus,

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Speaker 3: but I personally hold the same view that he was

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Speaker 3: an incredible religious leader that brought phenomenal hope to mankind.

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Speaker 1: We're here at the chapel in the Church of Scientology

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Speaker 1: in Los Angeles with my two new friends, Jesse and Alyssa.

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Speaker 1: Scientologists willing to sit down with me and answer some questions.

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Speaker 1: We just finished a tour, which was fascinating. My son

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Speaker 1: leaned over to me. He goes, Dad, this is so

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Speaker 1: interesting to me. Now, I say some of these questions,

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Speaker 1: really all these questions ahead of time. We're going to

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Speaker 1: get into theology, what Scientologists believe about the nature of God,

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Speaker 1: about the afterlife. but maybe just start with what initially

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Speaker 1: drew you to Scientology and what keeps you in it today?

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Speaker 4: Ladies first.

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Speaker 5: Great.

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Speaker 2: So for me, I grew up, my parents are actually Scientologists.

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Speaker 2: So I did grow up around the religion and learning

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Speaker 2: some of the basic principles. But I think like with

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Speaker 2: any religion, you have to come to a point where

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Speaker 2: you decide for yourself if that's what you believe and

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Speaker 2: that's what you want to follow. So for me, that

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Speaker 2: was when I was in high school. I was a

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Speaker 2: teenager and, um, high school is a really just weird

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Speaker 2: time of life. You know, you're really trying to figure

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Speaker 2: things out. You have new friends and relationships and, you know,

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Speaker 2: you're looking to your future. So I, at that time

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Speaker 2: read Dianetics, the modern science of mental health.

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Speaker 5: And it answered a lot.

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Speaker 2: Of questions for me about why I would react in

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Speaker 2: certain ways to people. Like I would lash out sometimes

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Speaker 2: at people that I cared about or really little insignificant

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Speaker 2: things would just like get me going, you know? Or

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Speaker 2: I would have these insecurities or self-doubts about myself and

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Speaker 2: it would prevent me from then going after certain things

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Speaker 2: that I wanted to do. So when I read Dianetics,

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Speaker 2: it really helped me to understand where that came from

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Speaker 2: and also give me something that I could do to

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Speaker 2: overcome that and to handle that. So then I did

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Speaker 2: the Scientology auditing a bit after reading Dianetics. And through that,

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Speaker 2: I again, just got a better understanding of myself and

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Speaker 2: it helped me to overcome some of those things and

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Speaker 2: really improve my communication with others.

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Speaker 5: And so at that point, I then started.

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Speaker 2: Using what I had learned in Scientology to then help

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Speaker 2: others around me. And I saw that I was able

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Speaker 2: to actually help another person improve something they wanted to

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Speaker 2: improve in life and For me, that's really just so

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Speaker 2: valuable and so priceless. And so today, that's why I

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Speaker 2: keep doing this is because I am able to use

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Speaker 2: it to help other people.

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Speaker 1: So you're a high school student. You have kind of

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Speaker 1: figuring out what you believe. Was there a part of

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Speaker 1: you that's like, I'm going to read the Quran, Book

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Speaker 1: of Mormon, Bible, where reading Dianetics was enough to settle

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Speaker 1: what you believed?

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Speaker 5: For me, reading Dianetics answered what I was looking for.

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Speaker 2: Like it gave me a reason and understanding about those

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Speaker 2: things irrational reactions. And because I knew that that wasn't

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Speaker 2: really who I was, like I didn't want to be

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Speaker 2: mean to my friends, you know, or I didn't want

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Speaker 2: to feel insecure sometimes in certain social settings. So I

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Speaker 2: knew that that doesn't make sense why that happened. So

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Speaker 2: Dianetics gave me those answers and also provided a way

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Speaker 2: that I could then address and overcome those things.

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Speaker 1: Fair enough. Jessie, tell us your story.

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Speaker 3: Well, I have a somewhat similar story. I think, you know,

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Speaker 3: Scientology is unique because it's a new religion. So a

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Speaker 3: lot of the people, when you come into a church,

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Speaker 3: are not necessarily going to be, have grown up in Scientology.

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Speaker 3: But now more and more, you have younger people who

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Speaker 3: are growing up as a Scientologist. And so my parents, likewise,

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Speaker 3: were Scientologists when I was growing up. And I was

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Speaker 3: around Scientology. But for me, similarly, I mean, I would

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Speaker 3: say it was in my early teens, around maybe 13,

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Speaker 3: 14 years. is when I started thinking more like, how

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Speaker 3: do I improve and address some of the things that

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Speaker 3: I was running into in school, relationships, you know, try

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Speaker 3: to set and achieve some better goals for myself in life.

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Speaker 3: And around that time, I took a couple of basic

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Speaker 3: courses in Scientology and those gave me some tools and resonated.

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Speaker 4: As something that I can apply.

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Speaker 3: And I had already kind of been around the religion,

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Speaker 3: so some of the principles and tenets of it, they

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Speaker 3: already made a lot of sense to me, but that

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Speaker 3: was when I kind of went, okay, this is for me,

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Speaker 3: and this is what I'm doing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I haven't. I mean, that was almost three decades ago.

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Speaker 1: Three decades ago. All right, I won't date you. We'll

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Speaker 1: leave it at that. So I've told a number of

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Speaker 1: my friends, most Christians, some atheists. I was like, hey,

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Speaker 1: check this out. I've got a tour of the Hollywood

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Speaker 1: LA Church of Scientology. Get to sit down with a

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Speaker 1: couple of Scientologists. And they were, A, surprised. The eyebrows

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Speaker 1: raised were like, are you serious? They didn't believe it. B,

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Speaker 1: there was some concern from people. And a host of

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Speaker 1: different areas we don't need to get into. But I'm curious,

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Speaker 1: and I'll start with you, Alyssa. Why is the Church

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Speaker 1: of Scientology allowing this kind of video now? And what's

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Speaker 1: the win for you? Why would you agree to do this?

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Speaker 1: So why do the video and why now?

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Speaker 5: Sure. So the Simplicity of it, really, is that you asked, Sean.

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Speaker 1: Okay. All right.

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Speaker 5: Fair enough.

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Speaker 2: You reached out and we connected on social media and

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Speaker 2: then we met with you and you seem very genuine.

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Speaker 2: And frankly, what you're doing with sitting down and having

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Speaker 2: a conversation with other religions to gain more understanding of.

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Speaker 5: Each other's faith.

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Speaker 2: We think it's something that's very important for society. You know,

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Speaker 2: we're very much, we very much respect the religious beliefs

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Speaker 2: of others. And we think that having conversations increases religious tolerance,

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Speaker 2: which is something.

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Speaker 5: That we can definitely use in society today.

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Speaker 2: So we're happy to have you here, to have toured you,

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Speaker 2: and to be able to just have a conversation, share

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Speaker 2: our beliefs, and hear your beliefs as well. And what

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Speaker 2: we hope people get out of it is... really just

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Speaker 2: that they learn something new about Scientology. Many people are

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Speaker 2: curious about it. They've heard about it. So we hope

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Speaker 2: that people get to learn something new and know that

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Speaker 2: they can also then go into their local church if

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Speaker 2: they want to find out more, if they have questions.

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Speaker 2: We're open to everyone, and they can always go to

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Speaker 2: Scientology.tv if they want to see more about what we do.

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Speaker 1: Jesse, the first time we met, maybe a couple weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: you gave my son and I a tour of one

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Speaker 1: of the different churches churches in Santa Ana, just to meet, connect,

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Speaker 1: vetting us a little bit, which I understand. One of

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Speaker 1: the things that you said to me, it was like,

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Speaker 1: maybe the BBC came in years ago with a video crew,

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Speaker 1: but this was like the first time that someone like

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Speaker 1: me has come in. So you said, I asked, which

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Speaker 1: is awesome, but I suspect a lot of other people

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Speaker 1: have asked. So why now from your perspective?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think, I mean, first of all, we,

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Speaker 3: we hadn't gotten a similar request. I mean, I haven't

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Speaker 3: been on the receipt end of a request like that.

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Speaker 1: The way that we phrased it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 3: And the other thing was just the genuine interest that

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Speaker 3: you had and you have this track record of doing

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Speaker 3: these other interfaith kind of interviews and tours and you're

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Speaker 3: just open to show what other faiths are like and

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Speaker 3: that we're always open to that because we want other

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Speaker 3: people to see what we do and we're interested in

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Speaker 3: and also gaining more understanding.

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Speaker 4: With other faiths, doing interfaith activities.

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Speaker 1: We guys did your homework. Even your head of custodian

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Speaker 1: here was like, I watch your videos, like you guys

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Speaker 1: checked out. And it's all public. I'm unashamedly an apologist,

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Speaker 1: a Christian evangelist. We've talked about that. But I'm curious

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Speaker 1: and willing to sit down with most people just to

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Speaker 1: hear their stories and what they believe. So I'd love

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Speaker 1: to hear, maybe from each one of you, what do

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Speaker 1: you think is... the biggest misunderstanding people have about Scientology?

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Speaker 4: Well, okay, yeah, I can start.

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Speaker 3: I think, you know, there may be an idea that

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Speaker 3: it's Scientology's somehow a bit of a closed off group

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Speaker 3: or something like that. And I think you saw today

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Speaker 3: that that's not the case. You know, our doors are

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Speaker 3: open and anyone can actually come into a church of Scientology.

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Speaker 3: We have churches all over the world and we have

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Speaker 3: an information center where anyone can come and just be here.

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Speaker 3: You can come and go as you please and watch videos,

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Speaker 3: read the displays that we have to understand our beliefs

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Speaker 3: and what we do. And even more than that, all

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Speaker 3: of our basic beliefs are contained in materials that are

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Speaker 3: just available for people. Anyone can kind of get a

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Speaker 3: book or if they want to understand more about Scientology.

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Speaker 3: And I think the other thing is Scientology, we say

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Speaker 3: it's a practical religion. It's like an applied religious philosophy.

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Speaker 3: And so people don't often understand what that means. And

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Speaker 3: we have our different courses and tools that are like

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Speaker 3: just practical tools that you learn to understand more about life,

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Speaker 3: the mind, the spirit. And you can immediately apply those

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Speaker 3: to your life. It's not dogmatic. It's just you learn things.

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Speaker 3: that you can then just do in your life and

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Speaker 3: use them to improve things. I don't think people are

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Speaker 3: actually just aware of that.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to add anything or is that captured quick?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's the only thing I would add

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Speaker 2: is just that, you know, as Scientologists, like, we are

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Speaker 2: just very normal everyday people.

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Speaker 4: And we do.

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Speaker 2: things in our communities, you know, we work, we raise families,

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Speaker 2: we travel, we go to concerts, we watch movies.

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Speaker 5: Like, you know, we are very just everyday people.

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Speaker 2: And a lot of Scientologists are also very involved, excuse me,

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Speaker 2: very involved in their local communities, because we do believe in,

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Speaker 2: in not only improving ourselves, but also helping others. So

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Speaker 2: it's very likely that people have interacted with a Scientologist

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Speaker 2: and you just might not even know that that person

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Speaker 2: was a Scientologist.

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Speaker 1: That's totally fair. I ask people what they believe all

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Speaker 1: the time. As far as I can remember, I've only

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Speaker 1: had one person in my life tell me they're a Scientologist.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why. Maybe it's the circles I'm running in.

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Speaker 1: But now I know at least three and I've met

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Speaker 1: some other folks here. So we talked about this a

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Speaker 1: little bit on the tour. But if someone comes in

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Speaker 1: off the street, how long is the process for that

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Speaker 1: individual to reach the highest level within Scientology. And the

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Speaker 1: other part of that is how many people have reached that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Are you comfortable sharing where you are on the journey?

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Speaker 4: Sure.

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Speaker 1: Jesse, I'll ask you first.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, sure.

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Speaker 3: So there's a few milestones that a person goes through

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Speaker 3: when they come into Scientology and then start moving up

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Speaker 3: what we call the bridge to total freedom, which is

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Speaker 3: the graded, you know, the steps that one takes in

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Speaker 3: reaching those higher levels. And So the first thing someone's

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Speaker 3: going to come in, they're going to do maybe a

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Speaker 3: couple of courses and spend a couple of weeks doing

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Speaker 3: introductory services to kind of realize that this is something

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Speaker 3: that works and they can apply immediately to improve their life.

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Speaker 3: And then the next real milestone, big milestone that they're

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Speaker 3: going to hit is the state of clear, which we've explained.

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Speaker 3: That's when you no longer have your reactive mind and

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Speaker 3: you're free from all of those inhibitions and stress and

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Speaker 3: anxiety and things that are holding you back. And then

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Speaker 3: that can take a matter of months. I mean, someone

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Speaker 3: can come in and obviously it's different for every person.

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Speaker 3: It depends how much time you put in, you know,

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Speaker 3: whether you're doing it just on the weekends or you're

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Speaker 3: coming every day, that's a matter of months. And then

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Speaker 3: you continue from there to go up higher levels and

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Speaker 3: you reach States that we refer to as operating Thayton OT.

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Speaker 3: And that just means Thetan is our word for the spirit,

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Speaker 3: what we call the spirit in Scientology. And operating means

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Speaker 3: that you're functioning, you're doing that and having that beingness.

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Speaker 3: And so when you reach the highest levels of operating Thetan,

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Speaker 3: that can take a bit longer. You're talking definitely in

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Speaker 3: the orders of magnitude of years. But it's within reach.

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Speaker 3: It's not like decades for sure. It's a few years

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Speaker 3: if you work diligently at it.

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Speaker 1: And you are where? If you're comfortable sharing. Yeah, sure. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So I'm clear. I've reached the state of clear.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, which is a fantastic state. And you had also,

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Speaker 3: so you had asked how many people, I don't actually

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Speaker 3: have a number to give you in terms of how

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Speaker 3: many people have reached the top, but it's in many

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Speaker 3: thousands and people reach those high levels of the bridge

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Speaker 3: every day.

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Speaker 1: And just so I understand, a person at that level

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Speaker 1: can do what?

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Speaker 2: What?

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Speaker 1: Do they have like some kind of supernatural powers? I

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Speaker 1: know that's not a word that's often used, but what

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Speaker 1: is that highest level that just sets that person apart

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Speaker 1: beyond like clear?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it's an extremely personal state of, you know,

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Speaker 3: you know that you're a spiritual being. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: don't even think there's words that could describe all the

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Speaker 3: qualities of it, but you have an incredible potential as

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Speaker 3: a spirit and as a being.

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't call it.

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Speaker 3: We in no way refer to it as supernatural powers,

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Speaker 3: but that self-peace and knowingness as a spirit and just

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Speaker 3: your capability as a person is incredible.

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Speaker 1: Anything you want to add to that or share?

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Speaker 5: I mean, he pretty much covered it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, perfect. One of the things that I consider is,

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Speaker 1: I probably give three lines of evidence that I think

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Speaker 1: are the best for Christianity. One would be the moral law,

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Speaker 1: pointing towards a moral law giver. I point towards evidence

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Speaker 1: in creation, like the beginning of the universe, fine-tuning of

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Speaker 1: the universe, things like DNA pointing towards an intelligent mind.

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Speaker 1: And I think the evidence that Jesus claimed to be

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Speaker 1: God died, rose again on the third day, like eyewitness testimony. Plus,

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Speaker 1: I would add to that just changed lives that I

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Speaker 1: would consider the most compelling evidence. What would you each

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Speaker 1: consider the most compelling evidence that Scientology is true? I'll

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Speaker 1: start with you on this one.

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Speaker 5: All right.

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Speaker 2: So as I've said throughout this tour several times is

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Speaker 2: that in Scientology, what is true is what you have

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Speaker 2: observed to be true for yourself. Scientology is not a

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Speaker 2: dogmatic faith where you're expected to accept answers just on

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Speaker 2: faith alone, but rather you gain the knowledge and you

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Speaker 2: go and you apply that and you observe or experience

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Speaker 2: the results and the truth of what you have learned.

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Speaker 2: So in Scientology, as a person gets the knowledge and

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Speaker 2: they do the spiritual counseling, then they use that in

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Speaker 2: their life and they actually see and get to experience

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Speaker 2: the gains and the wins and the handling of the

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Speaker 2: everyday problems that they've had. And so, like you just said,

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Speaker 2: the number of people who are actually, for you, following

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Speaker 2: Jesus and through Christianity, but likewise in Scientology, the number

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Speaker 2: of people who have achieved the state of clear, who

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Speaker 2: are using Scientology in their everyday life and how the

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Speaker 2: religion is expanding, I think that that very much kind

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Speaker 2: of speaks for itself in regards.

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Speaker 5: To, I don't know if.

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Speaker 2: You want to say the proof or the fact that

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Speaker 2: it is true, but ask any Scientologists and they'll definitely

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Speaker 2: have their own reality with Scientology and how it has

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Speaker 2: helped them and how they've been able to use the

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Speaker 2: exact principles of Scientology to better themselves and their life.

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Speaker 1: So if somebody... It sounds very experiential. Somebody takes the principles,

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Speaker 1: practices it, sees the positive in their life. You consider

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Speaker 1: the strongest evidence that it's true. How would you fit

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Speaker 1: in and respond if somebody goes, I try it, it

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Speaker 1: didn't work. In fact, I'm actually worse off because of it.

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Speaker 1: Or people that leave Scientology and have critical things to

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Speaker 1: say about it. What would be your take on that?

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Speaker 1: And I ask that because you said if A is

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Speaker 1: the most powerful evidence for Obviously, some would just go,

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Speaker 1: going to ask the opposite side of it. So I'm

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Speaker 1: curious how either of you would respond to that.

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Speaker 3: Sure.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I can go. Go ahead. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I think that, of course, if someone said that

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Speaker 2: they applied something and maybe they think that it didn't

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Speaker 2: work or they're doing better, I would say that there's

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Speaker 2: more technology that needs to be applied, more Scientology tools

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Speaker 2: that need to be applied. Because Scientology and Dianetics are

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Speaker 2: very precise.

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Speaker 5: They are axiomatic. So you do A and B and

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Speaker 5: you will get C.

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Speaker 2: So there's either maybe something that A wasn't applied correctly

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Speaker 2: or that there's a missing another tool that needs to

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Speaker 2: be applied and maybe you didn't apply the right tool

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Speaker 2: in the beginning. So even in Scientology, like we saw

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Speaker 2: actually on the tour a bit, you know, in the auditing,

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Speaker 2: when you're learning to deliver auditing, you know, people are

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Speaker 2: going to make errors and they're going to make mistakes.

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Speaker 2: But one thing about Scientology is we do correct those things.

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Speaker 2: We have a methodology and a technology to be able

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Speaker 2: to correct maybe when something wasn't applied exactly correct or

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Speaker 2: a mistake was made. So then the person can actually

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Speaker 2: find out what happened, what maybe they didn't totally understand

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Speaker 2: or what was misapplied or what they were missing, and

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Speaker 2: then handle that so that they can apply it at

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Speaker 2: that moment, but then also for themselves in the future.

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Speaker 1: So you're convinced, you used the word earlier, and I

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Speaker 1: asked about it, like when somebody's an auditor, learning the certainty,

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Speaker 1: I think is the term that you used, of these practices.

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Speaker 1: So you're, like, when somebody says how intelligent it doesn't work,

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Speaker 1: it must be with the way the person is trying it,

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Speaker 1: or they haven't done enough work, you're certain that this

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Speaker 1: works scientifically speaking, if somebody will just work through the process.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: That's how you see it.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 1: And absolutely sounds pretty certain. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: So in some ways that brings me to my, my

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Speaker 1: next question I'm curious about L Ron Hubbard gave him

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Speaker 1: the appropriate, uh, initials described dynamics and Scientology using the

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Speaker 1: language of science. And even the E meter of course

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Speaker 1: has the vibe of science. That's a part of the persuasion. Yeah. Uh, the,

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Speaker 1: And emphasize that the claims could be empirically tested. What

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Speaker 1: empirical evidence do you think most strongly supports the central

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Speaker 1: claims of Dianetics? And I'm curious about supporting studies by

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Speaker 1: credentialed non-Scientologists who say, yeah, that's actually a study that

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Speaker 1: demonstrates this. I haven't looked into these, but for people

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Speaker 1: watching who want to analyze some of these studies, which

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Speaker 1: ones would you point towards?

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 3: In terms of the axiomatic aspects and it being a

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Speaker 3: science of Dianetics, I think it follows up from what

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Speaker 3: Alyssa was just saying. Dianetics in Scientology are axiomatic. And

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Speaker 3: the thing that is most evidence of that are really

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Speaker 3: the results.

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Speaker 4: Of them.

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Speaker 3: I mean, Dianetics has now been around for over 75

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Speaker 3: years and millions of people around the world have taken

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Speaker 3: that technology and read the book and then been able

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Speaker 3: to go and apply the principles and get the results

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Speaker 3: that Alwyn Hubbard said in the book. In the book,

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Speaker 3: there's actually like case studies that he gave of what

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Speaker 3: he ran into in his research and that point towards,

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Speaker 3: you know, evidence it as a science. So I think

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Speaker 3: just those results are self-evident, you know, and Scientology is

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Speaker 3: the same way as that. Like she was saying, if

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Speaker 3: you do A and plus B, you always get C.

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Speaker 3: And you ask any Scientologist and they'll agree that when

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Speaker 3: you learn to practice Scientology and you do it standardly,

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Speaker 3: you'll get those results. I know that personally as someone

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Speaker 3: who is an auditor, a Scientology auditor, and also having

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Speaker 3: received Scientology auditing.

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Speaker 4: You also asked about the studies.

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Speaker 3: There have been many studies done by other theology professors

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Speaker 3: and experts in the field And we actually have those.

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Speaker 3: There's a website called ScientologyReligion.org, and those are available for

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Speaker 3: anyone to go look at. You just go to ScientologyReligion.org,

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Speaker 3: and there's a page there for expert studies.

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Speaker 1: And these are non-Scientologists, like peer-reviewed kind of academic studies,

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Speaker 1: affirming the things that Scientology believes. I'll find it at

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Speaker 1: that site if I go look at it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're like white paper type studies about Scientology as

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Speaker 3: a religion.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so when I searched an AI within the medical field,

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Speaker 1: it describes it as pseudoscience. Now, for me, I believe

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Speaker 1: in intelligent design. And there's a lot of people who

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Speaker 1: will write off intelligent design as pseudoscience. And I can

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Speaker 1: make my case and my argument and point towards studies

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Speaker 1: to back it up. But what would the response be

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Speaker 1: when I read that from some of like the, at

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Speaker 1: least from what I've understood, the critique of Scientology calling

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Speaker 1: it pseudoscience and Is it, no, they're wrong, we're correct?

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Speaker 1: How would you respond to that kind of criticism that,

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Speaker 1: from what I've seen, seems to be a pretty common

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Speaker 1: take on Scientology?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I understand.

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Speaker 3: I don't know how common it is. I do understand

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Speaker 3: that you've run across that on the Internet. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: we would say, no, that's not true. It's something made

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Speaker 3: up in order to basically, you know, I don't know

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Speaker 3: what the right word would be, but kind of like

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Speaker 3: bad mouth or set something up as being wrong. create

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Speaker 3: propaganda around the subject by someone who maybe is not

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Speaker 3: interested in some technology coming along that is going to

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Speaker 3: help people and is going to maybe take away some

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Speaker 3: of the quote unquote business that other industries might have

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Speaker 3: that are in the healing that might not be doing

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Speaker 3: a good enough job.

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Speaker 4: All right.

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00:22:53,130 --> 00:22:55,169
Speaker 1: I'll invite people watching and I'll check it out myself

440
00:22:55,230 --> 00:22:57,670
Speaker 1: in due time. Check out the site. Look at the studies.

441
00:22:58,300 --> 00:23:00,750
Speaker 1: I'm super curious. The question you all knew was coming.

442
00:23:01,050 --> 00:23:04,850
Speaker 1: I'm an evangelist, believe in Jesus. So I'm interested, but

443
00:23:04,869 --> 00:23:06,629
Speaker 1: I also have to ask you this. I want to

444
00:23:06,650 --> 00:23:11,100
Speaker 1: know what do scientists, who do scientists, who do Scientologists

445
00:23:11,730 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 1: believe Jesus was and how do they arrive at their conclusions?

446
00:23:15,260 --> 00:23:19,300
Speaker 1: So two part question, who is Jesus and what led

447
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,570
Speaker 1: you to that conclusion about who Jesus was or is?

448
00:23:23,420 --> 00:23:25,070
Speaker 2: So I don't know that I can answer this for

449
00:23:25,190 --> 00:23:32,230
Speaker 2: every single Scientologist because in our materials and in Scientology religion,

450
00:23:32,250 --> 00:23:38,649
Speaker 2: there isn't some statement about Jesus per se. We definitely

451
00:23:38,730 --> 00:23:44,020
Speaker 2: believe that Jesus was a great religious leader and he

452
00:23:44,100 --> 00:23:48,919
Speaker 2: very much did a tremendous amount of good for humanity

453
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,610
Speaker 2: and for the world um in fact scientology as we've

454
00:23:53,630 --> 00:23:56,369
Speaker 2: spoken about we do respect the religious beliefs of others

455
00:23:56,630 --> 00:24:00,350
Speaker 2: and very much hold in high regard the religious leaders

456
00:24:00,790 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 2: of all religions, you know, from Jesus to Moses, Muhammad,

457
00:24:05,340 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 2: the Buddha.

458
00:24:06,230 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 5: These were all very great individuals who.

459
00:24:08,740 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 2: Brought about greater tolerance and peace and happiness for people

460
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,700
Speaker 2: and gave people a higher purpose and greater morals and

461
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 2: values to.

462
00:24:19,700 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 5: Follow in their lives.

463
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 2: So Scientology is also, we welcome everyone of every faith.

464
00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:29,620
Speaker 2: Any denomination can come and do Scientology and still hold

465
00:24:29,660 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 2: their faith.

466
00:24:30,660 --> 00:24:31,820
Speaker 5: So there are.

467
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:36,010
Speaker 2: Some Scientologists who are Christian, who also practice Scientology, who

468
00:24:36,140 --> 00:24:39,660
Speaker 2: would then hold that belief of Jesus as.

469
00:24:39,590 --> 00:24:41,510
Speaker 5: The Son of God and the Trinity.

470
00:24:41,530 --> 00:24:43,790
Speaker 1: Your take?

471
00:24:44,650 --> 00:24:47,250
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think I have a similar answer. Scientology....

472
00:24:49,650 --> 00:24:51,629
Speaker 3: As a whole, we don't have, it's not part of

473
00:24:51,690 --> 00:24:55,650
Speaker 3: our scripture or part of our writings to have any

474
00:24:55,810 --> 00:25:00,460
Speaker 3: specific belief about Jesus. But I personally hold the same

475
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,500
Speaker 3: view that he was an incredible religious leader that brought

476
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 3: phenomenal hope to mankind and brought peace and compassion. And,

477
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,159
Speaker 3: you know, religion for Scientology is any religion. It's the

478
00:25:14,180 --> 00:25:19,590
Speaker 3: first sense of community. And Aaron Hubbard's goal was not

479
00:25:19,690 --> 00:25:23,110
Speaker 3: only to just spread Scientology as a religion, but to

480
00:25:23,369 --> 00:25:27,420
Speaker 3: increase religion in general throughout the world. And so we

481
00:25:27,460 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 3: promote people going to church and being part of their

482
00:25:31,820 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 3: own community and increasing tolerance between religions as well.

483
00:25:37,660 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 4: But I think that's the best answer. Okay. Yeah.

484
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,530
Speaker 1: So when I, like Mike, I'd partly be concerned, not concerned,

485
00:25:44,690 --> 00:25:49,750
Speaker 1: be curious about, about how you come to those conclusions.

486
00:25:50,230 --> 00:25:53,510
Speaker 1: My thoughts about Jesus and beliefs would come from the Bible,

487
00:25:53,670 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: the Gospels. Obviously, we won't make that argument now, but

488
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 1: I believe they're written early. I believe they're eyewitness testimony.

489
00:25:59,940 --> 00:26:02,300
Speaker 1: Record the words of Jesus in the same way we

490
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,220
Speaker 1: look at any ancient text. We have confidence. And Jesus

491
00:26:06,260 --> 00:26:10,290
Speaker 1: said some pretty provocative things. Like he said things like,

492
00:26:10,910 --> 00:26:13,409
Speaker 1: I'm the way, the truth, and the life. No one

493
00:26:13,450 --> 00:26:16,090
Speaker 1: gets the Father but by me. Let's say things like

494
00:26:16,150 --> 00:26:19,850
Speaker 1: in John 3.18 that whoever believes in me is not condemned,

495
00:26:19,930 --> 00:26:22,530
Speaker 1: but he who does not believe in the Son of

496
00:26:22,550 --> 00:26:26,709
Speaker 1: God is already condemned. He said some pretty radical things.

497
00:26:27,910 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 1: My beliefs about Jesus come from the earliest writings that

498
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,260
Speaker 1: we have about him. It sounds to me, if I

499
00:26:34,300 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 1: hear you correctly, you have certain beliefs about Scientology and

500
00:26:37,420 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 1: then are going to fit Jesus into those beliefs because

501
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: of the way that you see the world and a

502
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,980
Speaker 1: certain understanding of tolerance. Tell me if I'm wrong about that,

503
00:26:47,109 --> 00:26:48,010
Speaker 1: or is that fair?

504
00:26:49,090 --> 00:26:53,510
Speaker 4: I think that's a fair analysis. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Okay.

505
00:26:54,130 --> 00:26:55,750
Speaker 5: I mean, for sure, absolutely.

506
00:26:55,770 --> 00:26:59,690
Speaker 2: I believe Jesus did those things that, you know, we

507
00:26:59,730 --> 00:27:02,830
Speaker 2: have heard about. And he was a great man and

508
00:27:02,869 --> 00:27:04,930
Speaker 2: a great individual that helped a lot of people.

509
00:27:05,030 --> 00:27:06,550
Speaker 5: Absolutely. Okay.

510
00:27:06,850 --> 00:27:09,190
Speaker 1: So just so I understand. So he's a great man,

511
00:27:09,230 --> 00:27:12,169
Speaker 1: great religious leader, but certainly not the son of God.

512
00:27:13,010 --> 00:27:18,030
Speaker 1: Certainly not. belief in him determines what somebody's eternal destiny.

513
00:27:18,390 --> 00:27:20,930
Speaker 4: I guess i would just say that's not by the.

514
00:27:20,890 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: Way i am not remotely offended if somebody says you're

515
00:27:24,260 --> 00:27:26,420
Speaker 1: wrong like it doesn't we've already talked about like you're

516
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: not intolerant or bigoted if you think somebody's wrong that's

517
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,419
Speaker 1: a part of dialogue and i hope we're demonstrating.

518
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 3: That yeah for sure i i i'm just you know

519
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,850
Speaker 3: adding this caveat to say there are scientologists who may

520
00:27:38,890 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 3: have that belief but that's not a part of the

521
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,950
Speaker 3: Scientology scriptures and the writings of L.

522
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,780
Speaker 4: Ron Hubbard that we study and follow.

523
00:27:46,940 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 1: That's not central to you. No. You have other texts

524
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 1: you read, you consider scripture. I think what would be

525
00:27:52,420 --> 00:27:55,090
Speaker 1: hard for me is there are certain things, and we're

526
00:27:55,109 --> 00:27:57,850
Speaker 1: going to get to some of this, within Scientology, like

527
00:27:57,890 --> 00:28:02,510
Speaker 1: that human beings are naturally good. And Jesus taught totally

528
00:28:02,570 --> 00:28:05,850
Speaker 1: differently than that. I mean, he made it clear that

529
00:28:05,930 --> 00:28:09,330
Speaker 1: human beings are fallen and sinful. Mark 7, out of

530
00:28:09,390 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: the heart comes... idolatry and sloth and pride. So it's

531
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:19,619
Speaker 1: not engrams, but it's the human heart that's corrupted. And

532
00:28:19,660 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: that the only way it's transformed is through being born again.

533
00:28:22,580 --> 00:28:27,120
Speaker 1: So I don't see as somebody who believes the message

534
00:28:27,180 --> 00:28:30,590
Speaker 1: that Jesus taught based on the earliest teachings, how that

535
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:35,710
Speaker 1: blends with Scientology without giving up certain beliefs that Jesus

536
00:28:35,869 --> 00:28:39,010
Speaker 1: actually taught. So someone can say they're a Scientologist and

537
00:28:39,050 --> 00:28:41,070
Speaker 1: a Christian, but But when it comes to the character

538
00:28:41,110 --> 00:28:45,710
Speaker 1: of God, the nature of human beings, the afterlife, moral nature,

539
00:28:46,330 --> 00:28:50,390
Speaker 1: it seems to me pretty clearly we have pretty different beliefs.

540
00:28:51,150 --> 00:28:52,910
Speaker 1: Is that fair or does that strike you as like,

541
00:28:53,340 --> 00:28:54,260
Speaker 1: how does that land with you?

542
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 3: I think it goes back to one of the basic

543
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,739
Speaker 3: principles that Alyssa was saying, which is in Scientology, what

544
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,980
Speaker 3: is true is what you have observed to be true.

545
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 3: And nothing in Scientology is true unless you have observed

546
00:29:06,820 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 3: it to be true.

547
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 2: So.

548
00:29:09,190 --> 00:29:11,430
Speaker 3: That's why we say that people are free to have

549
00:29:11,470 --> 00:29:12,790
Speaker 3: their own religious beliefs.

550
00:29:14,210 --> 00:29:15,150
Speaker 4: Yeah.

551
00:29:15,410 --> 00:29:19,130
Speaker 1: Is the self the authority? Because I remember you had

552
00:29:19,170 --> 00:29:21,450
Speaker 1: the list of eight things. Remind me what they were

553
00:29:21,470 --> 00:29:24,470
Speaker 1: at the very... Dynamics. Okay, eight dynamics. And the self

554
00:29:24,510 --> 00:29:27,170
Speaker 1: was at the top. Supreme being was at the bottom.

555
00:29:28,070 --> 00:29:30,410
Speaker 1: And I hear you saying, like, if you experience it,

556
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 1: it's kind of true for you. So you could be

557
00:29:32,140 --> 00:29:35,300
Speaker 1: a Christian Scientologist or you could be a Scientologist who's

558
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,410
Speaker 1: not a Christian Is the self ultimately the authority? Is

559
00:29:39,450 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: that fair within Scientology?

560
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,220
Speaker 5: I'm not sure exactly.

561
00:29:44,380 --> 00:29:48,420
Speaker 2: I don't think exactly, based on what you're saying, for

562
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 2: sure we believe that individuals have their own right to

563
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 2: believe what they want to believe.

564
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 4: Or not believe.

565
00:29:53,940 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: I totally agree with that.

566
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:55,100
Speaker 5: Yeah.

567
00:29:55,340 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 2: So that's... In that sense, yes, if that's what you mean.

568
00:29:59,180 --> 00:30:01,930
Speaker 2: In the dynamics, where you had said like self was

569
00:30:01,970 --> 00:30:04,590
Speaker 2: at the top and God or the creator was at

570
00:30:04,630 --> 00:30:08,150
Speaker 2: the bottom, right? Those are just the numbers given to

571
00:30:08,450 --> 00:30:11,729
Speaker 2: the dynamics, right? One through eight. But really, they are

572
00:30:11,850 --> 00:30:15,310
Speaker 2: all interconnected. Like they are like a series of concentric circles.

573
00:30:15,530 --> 00:30:17,950
Speaker 2: So in the center, you would have self, then it

574
00:30:17,990 --> 00:30:21,990
Speaker 2: goes out to family, groups, mankind, all living things, the

575
00:30:22,020 --> 00:30:24,700
Speaker 2: physical universe, spiritual, and the eighth dynamic.

576
00:30:25,180 --> 00:30:25,340
Speaker 4: So.

577
00:30:26,410 --> 00:30:28,450
Speaker 5: It's not necessarily a matter for.

578
00:30:28,330 --> 00:30:32,010
Speaker 2: The dynamic specifically of it being one of greater importance

579
00:30:32,110 --> 00:30:33,890
Speaker 2: or lesser importance or having more.

580
00:30:33,910 --> 00:30:35,380
Speaker 1: So one's not more important than four.

581
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:36,780
Speaker 5: That's right. Exactly.

582
00:30:37,380 --> 00:30:41,820
Speaker 2: They're all, frankly, very important. And a person does best

583
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,020
Speaker 2: when they are doing well across all of their dynamics. Okay.

584
00:30:45,260 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: I guess what I meant was I agree with the

585
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,260
Speaker 1: point that you said. that if somebody has a right

586
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,510
Speaker 1: to believe what they want to, that's something we totally share.

587
00:30:53,530 --> 00:30:56,110
Speaker 1: I mean, Jesus let the rich young ruler walk away.

588
00:30:56,130 --> 00:30:58,430
Speaker 1: He's like, you don't want to believe it? Go for it. Like,

589
00:30:58,470 --> 00:31:02,250
Speaker 1: that's a deep Christian belief that this is why we evangelize,

590
00:31:02,310 --> 00:31:04,750
Speaker 1: because we hope somebody would choose to follow Jesus. If

591
00:31:04,790 --> 00:31:07,870
Speaker 1: you don't, you have the freedom to reject it. But

592
00:31:07,890 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: I guess what I'm getting at is what makes something true.

593
00:31:11,900 --> 00:31:13,860
Speaker 1: And I guess maybe I'm coming back to this again,

594
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,180
Speaker 1: is my perspective is I discover truth and conform myself

595
00:31:18,550 --> 00:31:22,010
Speaker 1: myself to that truth or I aim to. It sounds

596
00:31:22,070 --> 00:31:24,950
Speaker 1: like what you're saying is that the self, we might

597
00:31:25,010 --> 00:31:28,970
Speaker 1: have different beliefs, but if the self experiences it, then

598
00:31:29,010 --> 00:31:31,150
Speaker 1: it's kind of true for that individual.

599
00:31:31,830 --> 00:31:32,030
Speaker 3: Sure.

600
00:31:32,350 --> 00:31:33,030
Speaker 1: And you'd agree with that?

601
00:31:33,130 --> 00:31:36,780
Speaker 5: Yeah, you could say that. Like if you yourself experience something, sure.

602
00:31:37,060 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: That's true.

603
00:31:37,620 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 5: Okay. All right.

604
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:39,660
Speaker 4: Got it. All right.

605
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,020
Speaker 1: What does Scientology believe about the existence of heaven and hell?

606
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: And on top of this, I'm curious, what would the

607
00:31:46,580 --> 00:31:50,050
Speaker 1: fate of someone like Hitler or and stall and be

608
00:31:50,090 --> 00:31:50,950
Speaker 1: in Scientology?

609
00:31:50,970 --> 00:31:53,470
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I can tell you it wouldn't be very good.

610
00:31:55,590 --> 00:31:59,570
Speaker 2: So heaven and hell in Scientology, we don't necessarily have

611
00:31:59,610 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 2: that as part of our scriptures or beliefs. As we

612
00:32:04,380 --> 00:32:07,100
Speaker 2: have spoken about in Scientology, we believe that you are

613
00:32:07,140 --> 00:32:10,140
Speaker 2: a spiritual being. And as a spirit, you are an

614
00:32:10,180 --> 00:32:13,580
Speaker 2: immortal spiritual being. So you have lived before and you

615
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,950
Speaker 2: will live again into the future. So with that knowledge

616
00:32:17,990 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 2: and understanding, Scientologists really recognize that what they put here

617
00:32:24,260 --> 00:32:27,140
Speaker 2: into society and what they do in this life very

618
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,740
Speaker 2: much influences their next lives and their future existence as

619
00:32:31,780 --> 00:32:37,060
Speaker 2: a spiritual being. Scientology actually very much does share with

620
00:32:37,420 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 2: many other religions the goal of salvation of the spirit

621
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,020
Speaker 2: and salvation for an individual. We just believe that that

622
00:32:46,180 --> 00:32:49,870
Speaker 2: can actually be achieved in the here and now. not

623
00:32:49,900 --> 00:32:56,450
Speaker 2: necessarily in the afterlife. So in regards to Hitler... Can

624
00:32:56,490 --> 00:32:56,950
Speaker 2: I come back?

625
00:32:57,170 --> 00:33:01,110
Speaker 1: So I think we use the term salvation, but probably

626
00:33:01,130 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: just for clarity, probably mean very different things by it.

627
00:33:04,740 --> 00:33:06,900
Speaker 1: So I would say salvation, I would say somebody is

628
00:33:07,060 --> 00:33:13,340
Speaker 1: saved from their sins, forgiven before God, eternal life begins today,

629
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,470
Speaker 1: and that person who's forgiven would be with God forever

630
00:33:17,210 --> 00:33:21,820
Speaker 1: in heaven. So you're saved... from your sins that's why

631
00:33:21,900 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: jesus came that's why john the baptist when he sees

632
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,140
Speaker 1: him in john one is like here is the lamb

633
00:33:26,180 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: of god who comes to save us from our sins

634
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,660
Speaker 1: so to speak salvation means something different though to you

635
00:33:34,700 --> 00:33:37,650
Speaker 1: it means save from my let me guess and then

636
00:33:37,670 --> 00:33:39,770
Speaker 1: tell me if i get it right save from like

637
00:33:40,010 --> 00:33:44,070
Speaker 1: my anxiety save from my weaknesses i experience a state

638
00:33:44,330 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: of clear and beyond where I'm empowered and not limited

639
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: by the physical body and some of the reactive mind,

640
00:33:51,660 --> 00:33:54,610
Speaker 1: I can be saved in this life. Is that what

641
00:33:54,630 --> 00:33:56,130
Speaker 1: you mean by salvation? Was I close?

642
00:33:57,390 --> 00:33:59,230
Speaker 5: It's a good guess there, Sean.

643
00:33:59,250 --> 00:34:01,170
Speaker 1: Tell me if I'm wrong. You're learning.

644
00:34:01,250 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 5: It's good because we're going to do a quiz after this. No,

645
00:34:03,450 --> 00:34:04,910
Speaker 5: I'm just kidding.

646
00:34:05,250 --> 00:34:08,970
Speaker 2: Well, salvation really, just the simplicity of the word, really

647
00:34:09,010 --> 00:34:13,140
Speaker 2: means to save from a state of of ruin or

648
00:34:13,300 --> 00:34:16,370
Speaker 2: decay or not doing well or unhappiness, right? So it's

649
00:34:16,410 --> 00:34:19,390
Speaker 2: to save and bring something up. So that really is

650
00:34:19,430 --> 00:34:22,569
Speaker 2: what we, the simplicity of what we mean is the

651
00:34:22,610 --> 00:34:27,229
Speaker 2: salvation of the spirit, of the soul. And in Scientology, yes,

652
00:34:27,270 --> 00:34:30,530
Speaker 2: through the spiritual counseling and the training that one does,

653
00:34:31,290 --> 00:34:35,660
Speaker 2: there is a route to actually regain your full spiritual

654
00:34:36,100 --> 00:34:39,580
Speaker 2: awareness and ability in the here and now, as opposed

655
00:34:39,700 --> 00:34:44,340
Speaker 2: to in the afterlife. I think this might tie in

656
00:34:44,390 --> 00:34:46,730
Speaker 2: a little bit to maybe one of the other questions

657
00:34:46,770 --> 00:34:48,210
Speaker 2: that you had kind.

658
00:34:48,070 --> 00:34:49,870
Speaker 5: Of about like good and evil.

659
00:34:50,330 --> 00:34:53,690
Speaker 1: Can we come back to that one? Yes. So where

660
00:34:53,710 --> 00:34:57,549
Speaker 1: would Hitler and Stalin be? One of the questions I

661
00:34:57,570 --> 00:34:59,890
Speaker 1: get as an apologist is how can a good God

662
00:34:59,989 --> 00:35:02,430
Speaker 1: send somebody to hell? You bring up Hitler and Stalin

663
00:35:02,469 --> 00:35:05,110
Speaker 1: and some people are like, maybe I'd make an exception

664
00:35:05,170 --> 00:35:07,729
Speaker 1: for Hitler and Stalin. Like people are less concerned about

665
00:35:07,750 --> 00:35:09,890
Speaker 1: it when it's that level of evil.

666
00:35:10,140 --> 00:35:10,299
Speaker 4: Yeah.

667
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,500
Speaker 1: So on one hand, like on my side, I have

668
00:35:12,540 --> 00:35:16,220
Speaker 1: to explain why there could be such a state as hell.

669
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,339
Speaker 1: On the flip side, it's like, wait a minute, what

670
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:23,070
Speaker 1: about somebody who did so much evil? Where do they

671
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:24,589
Speaker 1: go within Scientology?

672
00:35:25,469 --> 00:35:27,930
Speaker 5: So, okay, good.

673
00:35:27,950 --> 00:35:31,430
Speaker 2: So we have established that what you do in this

674
00:35:31,469 --> 00:35:33,350
Speaker 2: life definitely does contribute to your next life.

675
00:35:33,430 --> 00:35:35,290
Speaker 5: That's what we believe in Scientology, right?

676
00:35:35,310 --> 00:35:35,450
Speaker 1: Right.

677
00:35:35,969 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 2: So obviously, with these individuals that you're talking about, Hitler

678
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:45,500
Speaker 2: and Stalin, they committed some atrocities that is not going

679
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,439
Speaker 2: to bode well for them in their future lifetimes to come.

680
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,630
Speaker 2: And in Scientology, we do have a code of ethics.

681
00:35:53,310 --> 00:35:58,150
Speaker 2: And we believe that when someone has done transgressed against

682
00:35:58,190 --> 00:36:01,730
Speaker 2: their group or their moral code and harmed and damaged

683
00:36:01,770 --> 00:36:04,390
Speaker 2: the group in some way, they do need to make

684
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,819
Speaker 2: some amends and make up for that damage that they

685
00:36:07,860 --> 00:36:09,180
Speaker 2: have caused to the group.

686
00:36:09,010 --> 00:36:11,510
Speaker 1: Like morally make up for that damage.

687
00:36:11,510 --> 00:36:14,950
Speaker 2: Well morally or take responsibility or in the physical universe

688
00:36:14,989 --> 00:36:18,870
Speaker 2: like they need to do actions to to make up

689
00:36:18,950 --> 00:36:21,569
Speaker 2: for how they have harmed the group of course they

690
00:36:21,610 --> 00:36:25,010
Speaker 2: themselves need to realize that they have done something wrong

691
00:36:25,070 --> 00:36:28,379
Speaker 2: and have harmed for sure but then they need to

692
00:36:28,739 --> 00:36:30,779
Speaker 2: whatever they can do to help that group you know

693
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,420
Speaker 2: and make up that damage so in the case of

694
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,540
Speaker 2: Hitler and Stalin, like they have a lot of damage

695
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:38,460
Speaker 2: to make up to the group. You know, they have

696
00:36:38,500 --> 00:36:40,419
Speaker 2: a lot of amends that they are going to have

697
00:36:40,460 --> 00:36:44,420
Speaker 2: to do to then be accepted again as members of

698
00:36:44,460 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 2: the group.

699
00:36:45,540 --> 00:36:50,300
Speaker 1: So you don't believe in a hell, just like reincarnation.

700
00:36:50,540 --> 00:36:54,180
Speaker 1: And they've just got to work hard to do good

701
00:36:54,370 --> 00:36:56,750
Speaker 1: in all these lives before they're redeemed. Like what does

702
00:36:56,770 --> 00:37:00,950
Speaker 1: that mean for millions of years, hundreds of millions of years?

703
00:37:01,030 --> 00:37:03,450
Speaker 1: How do you pay off a debt like that?

704
00:37:04,710 --> 00:37:07,950
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know how you could put a year

705
00:37:08,010 --> 00:37:11,150
Speaker 3: tag on something like that. I mean, the amount of evil,

706
00:37:11,190 --> 00:37:15,150
Speaker 3: the amount of destruction and lives lost from those individuals

707
00:37:15,330 --> 00:37:19,910
Speaker 3: is not something easily forgivable. I think the point is,

708
00:37:20,670 --> 00:37:25,029
Speaker 3: of course, there's always a path back from there, but

709
00:37:25,170 --> 00:37:26,350
Speaker 3: they're in a pretty dark place.

710
00:37:27,270 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: So at some point, he goes through enough reincarnation, he

711
00:37:30,219 --> 00:37:32,180
Speaker 1: could be in a state where he becomes a clear...

712
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 1: and becomes a Thetan at the highest level.

713
00:37:34,300 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 3: Well, I think it's not so much about the reincarnation,

714
00:37:37,060 --> 00:37:41,380
Speaker 3: but like the actual exchange that someone, and I know

715
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,569
Speaker 3: we're talking about those people, but even if you take anyone,

716
00:37:46,130 --> 00:37:48,930
Speaker 3: they have damage to make up. It's like, what is

717
00:37:48,950 --> 00:37:54,230
Speaker 3: the correct level of damage that is equivalent to, or

718
00:37:55,130 --> 00:37:57,210
Speaker 3: to the damage that they cause, like meaning create enough

719
00:37:57,250 --> 00:37:59,310
Speaker 3: good to make up for the damage that they caused.

720
00:37:59,510 --> 00:37:59,750
Speaker 5: Okay.

721
00:37:59,790 --> 00:38:03,169
Speaker 1: So that's interesting to me that, We look at Hitler

722
00:38:03,190 --> 00:38:04,450
Speaker 1: and we use him as an example because it's hard

723
00:38:04,469 --> 00:38:07,220
Speaker 1: to think of somebody who's more evil than Hitler would be.

724
00:38:07,900 --> 00:38:09,860
Speaker 1: And the key is, as you see it, if I

725
00:38:09,900 --> 00:38:13,980
Speaker 1: heard you correctly, is through the process of reincarnation. If

726
00:38:14,020 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: he's done X amount of evil, he's got to do

727
00:38:18,380 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: X amount of good to make up for it and

728
00:38:21,700 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: then be justified in a sense. I'm not trying to

729
00:38:25,100 --> 00:38:26,980
Speaker 1: put words in your mouth. I'm literally trying to understand.

730
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,219
Speaker 3: I think we're speaking very theoretically, but yeah, I.

731
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 4: Think we're on the same page. Okay, all right.

732
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,500
Speaker 1: Very interesting. We have a lot of levels. Okay, so

733
00:38:36,700 --> 00:38:39,660
Speaker 1: back to the question I raised before, is Scientology teaches

734
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 1: that people are fundamentally good. That's right behind us, one

735
00:38:44,100 --> 00:38:48,220
Speaker 1: of the creeds that's back there. And in some ways,

736
00:38:48,340 --> 00:38:52,150
Speaker 1: this could be one of the biggest divides between what

737
00:38:52,190 --> 00:38:56,270
Speaker 1: we believe, maybe. I'd be curious how Scientology explains the

738
00:38:56,370 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: extraordinary capacity that human beings have for cruelty. like genocide,

739
00:39:02,300 --> 00:39:08,700
Speaker 1: child abuse, torture, exploitation, if we're naturally good, where does

740
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,730
Speaker 1: such grave evil come from? Yeah.

741
00:39:13,469 --> 00:39:15,370
Speaker 3: Well, as you said, it's definitely one of our tenets

742
00:39:15,410 --> 00:39:19,330
Speaker 3: that man is basically good. That certainly doesn't mean that

743
00:39:19,510 --> 00:39:23,989
Speaker 3: there's obviously an extraordinary amount of evilness and evil that

744
00:39:24,030 --> 00:39:28,010
Speaker 3: goes on in the world as far as genocide, rape,

745
00:39:28,710 --> 00:39:33,450
Speaker 3: child abuse, things like that. And we believe that man

746
00:39:33,510 --> 00:39:37,350
Speaker 3: is a spiritual being and that as a spiritual being

747
00:39:37,410 --> 00:39:41,910
Speaker 3: he is basically good and that through many lifetimes in

748
00:39:41,950 --> 00:39:48,660
Speaker 3: this physical universe he experiences and commits sin and transgressions

749
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 3: against moral codes And basically that those sins beget more

750
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,300
Speaker 3: sins and it then has someone going down a dwindling

751
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:02,140
Speaker 3: spiral and you go deeper and deeper into that and

752
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:06,970
Speaker 3: people can reach some very far lengths of insanity and

753
00:40:08,630 --> 00:40:11,989
Speaker 3: you see people committing the type of acts that we

754
00:40:12,050 --> 00:40:16,270
Speaker 3: see around the planet today. The thing about Scientology is

755
00:40:16,330 --> 00:40:20,650
Speaker 3: that we then also have our own route for that person.

756
00:40:21,170 --> 00:40:24,930
Speaker 3: We have our own confessional technology in Scientology where a

757
00:40:24,930 --> 00:40:29,460
Speaker 3: person can actually confront their past transgressions, their sins, and

758
00:40:29,500 --> 00:40:32,459
Speaker 3: then have an opportunity to come back out of that

759
00:40:33,060 --> 00:40:38,100
Speaker 3: and come back to their innate state of goodness.

760
00:40:39,300 --> 00:40:42,529
Speaker 4: And that is the innate state in our view.

761
00:40:43,410 --> 00:40:45,970
Speaker 1: Okay, fair enough. I appreciate that you share your views.

762
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,420
Speaker 1: To me, there are certain theological beliefs that we can

763
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: only know by looking at Scripture. There's others that seem obvious.

764
00:40:53,739 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: To me, one of the most obvious beliefs is that

765
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,040
Speaker 1: human beings are not naturally good. Now, neither of you

766
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,180
Speaker 1: are parents, which is fine, but I did not have

767
00:41:03,219 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 1: to teach my kids how to be selfish. I did

768
00:41:06,260 --> 00:41:08,590
Speaker 1: not have to teach my kids how to lie. I

769
00:41:08,620 --> 00:41:10,730
Speaker 1: did not have to teach them how to not hit

770
00:41:10,830 --> 00:41:12,790
Speaker 1: one another. What I had to do was teach them

771
00:41:12,870 --> 00:41:18,010
Speaker 1: to resist that natural inclination that just bubbled up from

772
00:41:18,890 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 1: who kids naturally are. So to me, I'm like, when

773
00:41:22,500 --> 00:41:24,740
Speaker 1: I look at Christian theology and I look at parents,

774
00:41:24,780 --> 00:41:26,980
Speaker 1: I'm like, this is exactly what I would expect if

775
00:41:27,020 --> 00:41:29,240
Speaker 1: we're made in the image of God and have infinite value,

776
00:41:29,739 --> 00:41:34,149
Speaker 1: but our moral natures have been corrupted. How would Scientology

777
00:41:34,270 --> 00:41:37,510
Speaker 1: explain that kind of piece? That to me seems obvious.

778
00:41:37,650 --> 00:41:40,390
Speaker 1: Obviously to both of you, it doesn't. But how would

779
00:41:40,430 --> 00:41:41,569
Speaker 1: you explain and account for that?

780
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,220
Speaker 4: Well, I think there's also a lot of innate, incredible goodness.

781
00:41:45,300 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm sure, you know, in your feelings for

782
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:52,940
Speaker 3: your children, the love and mutual love, I'm sure, exceeded

783
00:41:53,020 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 3: any of those, you know, bad qualities.

784
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,720
Speaker 4: But also, I think it's just what I was saying.

785
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 3: Like, you know, you have man as innately a basically

786
00:42:04,180 --> 00:42:08,470
Speaker 3: good individual, and he goes through time and gains different

787
00:42:09,190 --> 00:42:13,460
Speaker 3: insanities or commits sin, and then degenerates from there, and

788
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 3: there's just always a route back to that innate state

789
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 3: of goodness.

790
00:42:18,300 --> 00:42:18,580
Speaker 1: Okay.

791
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:19,399
Speaker 2: All right.

792
00:42:20,219 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 1: I will let that one go. That was helpful.

793
00:42:23,420 --> 00:42:23,660
Speaker 5: Okay.

794
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,490
Speaker 1: What does Scientology believe about the origin of the universe?

795
00:42:27,570 --> 00:42:30,630
Speaker 1: We talked a little bit about a supreme being. Is

796
00:42:30,650 --> 00:42:34,910
Speaker 1: the universe eternal, or did it have a beginning? And

797
00:42:34,930 --> 00:42:38,830
Speaker 1: if it had a beginning, when was that? We know.

798
00:42:39,610 --> 00:42:40,310
Speaker 4: Well, there's no.

799
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:45,380
Speaker 3: Okay, so Scientology, like other religions, definitely has a belief

800
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 3: about the creation of the universe. I think every religion

801
00:42:50,100 --> 00:42:54,219
Speaker 3: has its own view on that, whether it's something that's

802
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,739
Speaker 3: eternal or something that has an exact beginning. And the

803
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,839
Speaker 3: belief in Scientology is that that has to do with

804
00:43:01,860 --> 00:43:05,980
Speaker 3: the understanding of what we call theta, which is thought,

805
00:43:06,790 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 3: life force, the spirit, and, uh, the physical universe, which

806
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 3: in Scientology, we have a coined word called MEST, and

807
00:43:14,620 --> 00:43:15,740
Speaker 3: it stands for matter.

808
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:17,660
Speaker 1: Energy, space, and time.

809
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:18,580
Speaker 4: Nice. Boom.

810
00:43:18,820 --> 00:43:19,259
Speaker 1: I know this.

811
00:43:19,340 --> 00:43:19,760
Speaker 4: Keep going.

812
00:43:19,930 --> 00:43:21,890
Speaker 1: That wasn't in our tour, but keep going.

813
00:43:21,950 --> 00:43:24,790
Speaker 3: So those are the component parts of the physical universe,

814
00:43:25,489 --> 00:43:28,450
Speaker 3: and it, the creation of the universe has to do

815
00:43:28,510 --> 00:43:34,489
Speaker 3: with theta creating MEST, and that's, uh, There's a lot

816
00:43:34,530 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 3: of writings from L.

817
00:43:35,790 --> 00:43:36,230
Speaker 4: Ron Hubbard.

818
00:43:36,570 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 3: And in 1953, he wrote a series of writings that

819
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:43,180
Speaker 3: are called The Factors. And those are available in one

820
00:43:43,219 --> 00:43:46,220
Speaker 3: of the basic books of Scientology. And that goes over

821
00:43:46,940 --> 00:43:50,259
Speaker 3: those steps and our beliefs on that.

822
00:43:50,620 --> 00:43:54,900
Speaker 1: So matter, energy, space, and time, physical things, came out

823
00:43:54,940 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 1: of mind. That's part of the debate. Like some atheists

824
00:43:58,219 --> 00:44:00,980
Speaker 1: say there's matter and then mind. I believe as a

825
00:44:01,020 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 1: Christian there's mind, God, he spoke matter into existence. Sounds

826
00:44:05,340 --> 00:44:07,900
Speaker 1: like you're saying a creation account, there was a finite

827
00:44:08,420 --> 00:44:11,620
Speaker 1: time in the past, the universe is not eternal, and

828
00:44:12,090 --> 00:44:15,770
Speaker 1: mind brought matter into existence. Is that fair?

829
00:44:16,110 --> 00:44:18,190
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so.

830
00:44:18,330 --> 00:44:21,050
Speaker 1: How long ago in the past was this? The standard

831
00:44:21,070 --> 00:44:24,149
Speaker 1: scientific dating would be roughly 14 billion years ago. Does

832
00:44:24,170 --> 00:44:27,230
Speaker 1: Scientology have a position on that or that's secondary?

833
00:44:27,850 --> 00:44:31,590
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's nothing in Scientology that gives a time stamp

834
00:44:31,670 --> 00:44:32,630
Speaker 3: of when that occurred.

835
00:44:33,590 --> 00:44:35,090
Speaker 4: That's not in the writings.

836
00:44:35,110 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 1: Would the mind be a personal being? It seems to

837
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: me only... If I think of immaterial things that exist,

838
00:44:41,219 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 1: like say numbers or laws of logic, they don't have

839
00:44:44,620 --> 00:44:50,029
Speaker 1: the capacity to create. They're passive. It seems like only

840
00:44:50,070 --> 00:44:53,830
Speaker 1: a mind and something that's personal could create. So it

841
00:44:53,870 --> 00:44:56,850
Speaker 1: sounds like there'd be some personal being that brought the

842
00:44:56,910 --> 00:45:00,230
Speaker 1: universe into existence, if there's a creation moment. And if

843
00:45:00,270 --> 00:45:01,910
Speaker 1: that's true, it seemed to me that that would be

844
00:45:01,930 --> 00:45:06,089
Speaker 1: a being worth worshiping. Agree, disagree, what would be?

845
00:45:06,110 --> 00:45:07,250
Speaker 4: Yeah, I understand.

846
00:45:07,310 --> 00:45:11,339
Speaker 3: I think, as we explained, there's the understanding of that

847
00:45:11,420 --> 00:45:16,259
Speaker 3: supreme being. In Scientology, you advance your knowledge spiritually and

848
00:45:16,300 --> 00:45:19,280
Speaker 3: become more and more aware, and only at the point

849
00:45:19,540 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 3: when you have a full understanding of the spiritual aspect

850
00:45:24,980 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 3: of life, does one really gain a full understanding of

851
00:45:28,100 --> 00:45:31,280
Speaker 3: the Supreme Being. And so we don't have an exact

852
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,500
Speaker 3: writing in our scripture that explains who that was or

853
00:45:35,780 --> 00:45:39,259
Speaker 3: how that exactly came to be, but there's an understanding

854
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:44,910
Speaker 3: that one will reach through their spiritual path in Scientology

855
00:45:45,570 --> 00:45:47,270
Speaker 3: to really understand that.

856
00:45:47,469 --> 00:45:49,450
Speaker 1: Is there talk about worshipping that being at all, or

857
00:45:49,489 --> 00:45:53,859
Speaker 1: that's not what Scientology does or talks about? Okay, totally fair.

858
00:45:54,460 --> 00:45:58,460
Speaker 1: Let's shift to the origin of human beings. So does

859
00:45:58,500 --> 00:46:03,660
Speaker 1: Scientology embrace kind of a Darwinian or a neo-Darwinian view? Reincarnation,

860
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 1: you've kind of hinted at before. I've used this word.

861
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 1: You haven't objected to it. Do you believe in both?

862
00:46:07,980 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: What's the origin of humanity according to Scientology? And I

863
00:46:12,140 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 1: realize I'm not doing a great job. I usually think

864
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:15,439
Speaker 1: through who I'm asking these questions to.

865
00:46:15,660 --> 00:46:16,540
Speaker 4: It's okay.

866
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: We're good here.

867
00:46:17,100 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 5: We're figuring it out.

868
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,540
Speaker 1: But do you? Whoever wants to answer this, who feels

869
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: most confident? Do you want to jump in? I'll answer it.

870
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:31,060
Speaker 3: Okay, so there's some science behind Darwinian theory. Obviously, there's

871
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 3: an evolution of life forms that have progressed over time,

872
00:46:35,140 --> 00:46:38,340
Speaker 3: and that can be seen. I think where there's a

873
00:46:38,410 --> 00:46:43,890
Speaker 3: divergence between our beliefs and that is this idea of

874
00:46:44,590 --> 00:46:48,470
Speaker 3: just everything being natural selection and a matter of chance.

875
00:46:49,219 --> 00:46:52,430
Speaker 3: But we believe that man is a spiritual being. And

876
00:46:53,030 --> 00:46:56,750
Speaker 3: one of the basic discoveries of L. Ron Hubbard, even

877
00:46:56,790 --> 00:47:00,950
Speaker 3: prior to Dianetics, was finding what is that common denominator

878
00:47:01,110 --> 00:47:05,690
Speaker 3: of existence that is something that every life form is

879
00:47:06,670 --> 00:47:09,650
Speaker 3: trying to achieve. And he isolated that as to survive.

880
00:47:10,650 --> 00:47:14,430
Speaker 3: And so as a spiritual being, the objective is always

881
00:47:14,660 --> 00:47:21,270
Speaker 3: to survive. And so there's truths in evolution, and so forth.

882
00:47:21,510 --> 00:47:24,810
Speaker 3: But it's man as a spirit that's the impetus of

883
00:47:25,310 --> 00:47:30,100
Speaker 3: driving that forward. And I think that that's the best

884
00:47:30,140 --> 00:47:32,839
Speaker 3: way to put our beliefs. Like when it comes to

885
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 3: man evolving and surviving and humankind, it's all driven forward

886
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 3: by the spirit and man as a spiritual being.

887
00:47:41,969 --> 00:47:44,650
Speaker 1: Would you use the term reincarnation? Is that fair? It

888
00:47:44,670 --> 00:47:47,250
Speaker 1: sure sounded like it with the sin that progressed in

889
00:47:47,290 --> 00:47:48,290
Speaker 1: somebody like Hitler.

890
00:47:48,610 --> 00:47:50,549
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's, we would.

891
00:47:50,810 --> 00:47:53,810
Speaker 3: And just to clarify, I mean, there's a few different

892
00:47:53,969 --> 00:47:58,509
Speaker 3: meanings and uses of the word reincarnation. There's obviously what's

893
00:47:58,650 --> 00:48:01,509
Speaker 3: used commonly like in the Hindu religion where you can

894
00:48:01,890 --> 00:48:05,509
Speaker 3: reincarnate and become, live again in another body in a

895
00:48:06,030 --> 00:48:09,750
Speaker 3: higher or lower life form. And that's not the type,

896
00:48:09,910 --> 00:48:12,310
Speaker 3: that's not what we mean when we refer to reincarnation,

897
00:48:12,550 --> 00:48:15,820
Speaker 3: but we definitely have a belief of that you've lived

898
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,890
Speaker 3: before and that you will live again. And when you

899
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,190
Speaker 3: are completely done with this life, then you will live

900
00:48:22,210 --> 00:48:23,450
Speaker 3: again in another body.

901
00:48:23,910 --> 00:48:27,950
Speaker 1: All right. How about angels and demons? I don't think I,

902
00:48:28,090 --> 00:48:30,230
Speaker 1: when I looked, I mean, looked online, I'm not going

903
00:48:30,250 --> 00:48:33,049
Speaker 1: to pretend I've read a ton of books, looked around

904
00:48:33,110 --> 00:48:35,390
Speaker 1: stuff here. I've not seen anything about kind of other

905
00:48:35,630 --> 00:48:39,590
Speaker 1: seeming supernatural beings. There's like the supreme being, obviously humans

906
00:48:39,630 --> 00:48:43,310
Speaker 1: are Thetans that have a spiritual nature, but are there angels?

907
00:48:43,530 --> 00:48:45,930
Speaker 1: Are there demons? If so, what are they like? Where

908
00:48:45,950 --> 00:48:47,230
Speaker 1: do they come from? What do they do?

909
00:48:48,340 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 2: So again, that's not necessarily something that is part of

910
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 2: the Scientology scriptures or that we believe. Again, a Scientologist

911
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:00,439
Speaker 2: who has another faith might have their own belief in that,

912
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:04,420
Speaker 2: but as we've covered, definitely we believe that individuals are

913
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:10,020
Speaker 2: spiritual beings and for sure you have beings and spirits.

914
00:49:09,690 --> 00:49:13,609
Speaker 5: Who are more good or extremely good or.

915
00:49:13,570 --> 00:49:19,470
Speaker 2: Benevolent, whereas some, maybe like Hitler or Stalin, are much

916
00:49:19,530 --> 00:49:24,180
Speaker 2: more evil and destructive. But the concept of angels and

917
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 2: demons is not necessarily part of Scientology.

918
00:49:26,380 --> 00:49:28,460
Speaker 1: It doesn't fit within it. Is that your take or would.

919
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:30,379
Speaker 4: You add anything? Yeah, no, I think that works.

920
00:49:30,620 --> 00:49:34,970
Speaker 1: Okay, all right. What would convince you that Scientology is false?

921
00:49:35,650 --> 00:49:38,150
Speaker 1: So for me, there's a few things that would convince

922
00:49:38,190 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 1: me Christianity is false. false paul writes in first corinthians

923
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,610
Speaker 1: 15 he says if jesus is not risen our faith

924
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,670
Speaker 1: is in vain that it's foolishness and we're still in

925
00:49:48,710 --> 00:49:51,210
Speaker 1: our sins so i think one of the unique things

926
00:49:51,230 --> 00:49:54,510
Speaker 1: about christianity is that it actually ties whether it's true

927
00:49:54,610 --> 00:50:00,010
Speaker 1: or false to a single testable historically event so jesus

928
00:50:00,050 --> 00:50:03,670
Speaker 1: didn't live a sinless life didn't actually die didn't actually

929
00:50:03,850 --> 00:50:06,770
Speaker 1: raise and appear to people even the apostle paul is

930
00:50:06,810 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 1: like this is false So if they found the body

931
00:50:09,620 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 1: of Jesus, for example, there's other ways you could challenge Christianity,

932
00:50:15,500 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: but that's kind of set up as the test that

933
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:20,860
Speaker 1: arguably could show that it's true or show that it's false.

934
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 1: What would convince you? I'll start with you, Jay. So

935
00:50:23,980 --> 00:50:27,219
Speaker 1: what would convince you that it's actually false? Or is

936
00:50:27,260 --> 00:50:29,750
Speaker 1: there nothing even conceivable that would convince you that it's false?

937
00:50:30,489 --> 00:50:33,930
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, for me, again, Scientology is about what

938
00:50:33,969 --> 00:50:37,170
Speaker 3: you observe to be true. So I've been a Scientologist

939
00:50:37,190 --> 00:50:39,130
Speaker 3: since you know, I could say my whole life or

940
00:50:39,170 --> 00:50:41,310
Speaker 3: really for almost 30 years.

941
00:50:42,530 --> 00:50:45,470
Speaker 4: And I've observed it to be true.

942
00:50:45,850 --> 00:50:48,910
Speaker 3: And it has worked for me and gotten me to

943
00:50:49,570 --> 00:50:53,390
Speaker 3: higher states of being and ability and happiness. And so

944
00:50:53,590 --> 00:50:56,720
Speaker 3: I've been living that and experiencing it for 30 years.

945
00:50:56,820 --> 00:51:00,500
Speaker 3: And I've also seen that in thousands of other people.

946
00:51:00,780 --> 00:51:04,100
Speaker 3: So for me, I mean, I'll say no, there's nothing

947
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 3: that could could make me think that it's false. But

948
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:11,790
Speaker 3: that's because of what I've observed for the last 30 years.

949
00:51:12,230 --> 00:51:14,170
Speaker 1: So are you certain in your beliefs? Would you use

950
00:51:14,210 --> 00:51:17,049
Speaker 1: that term to say, I'm certain, I absolutely know this

951
00:51:17,090 --> 00:51:17,390
Speaker 1: is true?

952
00:51:17,750 --> 00:51:19,230
Speaker 4: Absolutely. Okay.

953
00:51:19,450 --> 00:51:20,049
Speaker 2: How about you?

954
00:51:20,130 --> 00:51:23,750
Speaker 1: Is there anything that would conceivably convince you Scientology is false?

955
00:51:24,350 --> 00:51:26,630
Speaker 5: Not really, to be honest.

956
00:51:26,710 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 2: And again, it's just the same thing of that, like

957
00:51:29,739 --> 00:51:33,460
Speaker 2: I have experienced it myself. personally, and I have been

958
00:51:33,500 --> 00:51:35,700
Speaker 2: able to help many other people with it. So I

959
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:40,350
Speaker 2: do have my own reality and knowingness that it does

960
00:51:40,430 --> 00:51:42,109
Speaker 2: work and that it is true.

961
00:51:42,830 --> 00:51:44,509
Speaker 1: What would you say to somebody on the flip side

962
00:51:44,550 --> 00:51:46,710
Speaker 1: who's like, I guess you kind of answered this, who's

963
00:51:46,750 --> 00:51:49,049
Speaker 1: a Scientologist and is like, I'm really having questions and

964
00:51:49,090 --> 00:51:52,569
Speaker 1: doubts and I don't believe this. Would it be do

965
00:51:52,610 --> 00:51:56,009
Speaker 1: more auditing and just trust the process more? Would that

966
00:51:56,030 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 1: be the response? In some ways you answered this.

967
00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:01,299
Speaker 5: No, that would not necessarily be my response.

968
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:01,970
Speaker 1: Okay, then correct me.

969
00:52:02,489 --> 00:52:05,910
Speaker 2: I mean, I would really help the person to kind

970
00:52:05,950 --> 00:52:08,149
Speaker 2: of see like, okay, well, what are you trying to, like,

971
00:52:08,350 --> 00:52:11,250
Speaker 2: what are you trying to apply in Scientology that you

972
00:52:11,270 --> 00:52:13,569
Speaker 2: feel isn't working or that you're uncertain of or what

973
00:52:13,630 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 2: situation are you running into that you don't feel you're

974
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 2: able to resolve? And then I would help them to see, again,

975
00:52:20,060 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 2: like what other tools or what maybe wasn't applied correctly

976
00:52:23,660 --> 00:52:25,379
Speaker 2: or what more can be applied.

977
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 5: To handle the situation.

978
00:52:26,180 --> 00:52:31,390
Speaker 2: Because definitely, you know, in Scientology, like, it allows you

979
00:52:31,489 --> 00:52:34,190
Speaker 2: to really be in control of your life and, you know, and,

980
00:52:34,330 --> 00:52:36,810
Speaker 2: and kind of take control and build the life that

981
00:52:36,850 --> 00:52:40,250
Speaker 2: you want to have. And so it's not so much

982
00:52:40,290 --> 00:52:44,069
Speaker 2: just like, well, just write it out, you know, and it, it,

983
00:52:44,290 --> 00:52:47,390
Speaker 2: it'll all be okay in the end, hopefully, but it's like, okay.

984
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:50,140
Speaker 2: It's not to say that things don't get rough in life.

985
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 5: Like, sure. We have ups and downs.

986
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,700
Speaker 2: Everyone has ups and downs, you know, but, but it's like, okay,

987
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 2: maybe this is a difficult time or maybe I, and

988
00:52:58,950 --> 00:53:01,089
Speaker 2: have this very big challenge that I'm not sure how

989
00:53:01,130 --> 00:53:04,089
Speaker 2: to overcome. Or maybe there's something personally that I just

990
00:53:04,130 --> 00:53:05,149
Speaker 2: don't know how to deal with.

991
00:53:05,630 --> 00:53:06,350
Speaker 5: So, okay, good.

992
00:53:06,410 --> 00:53:09,870
Speaker 2: So let's actually like confront what is happening and then

993
00:53:09,930 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 2: see what can you do about it or what help

994
00:53:13,100 --> 00:53:15,060
Speaker 2: do you need from another person to be able to

995
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:17,500
Speaker 2: overcome that or handle that situation? Okay.

996
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 1: You both have said you're certain Scientology is true. For me,

997
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:24,950
Speaker 1: I've thought through if I wasn't a Christian, what worldview

998
00:53:25,090 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 1: I would adopt next. I'm not going to tell you

999
00:53:27,580 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 1: because I'm not the one being interviewed here. No one's

1000
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:32,620
Speaker 1: ever asked me that publicly. I don't think I've ever

1001
00:53:32,660 --> 00:53:35,779
Speaker 1: told anyone except my wife who's chilling over here. If

1002
00:53:35,820 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 1: you weren't a Scientologist, what would you be?

1003
00:53:40,570 --> 00:53:40,820
Speaker 5: Wow.

1004
00:53:40,930 --> 00:53:43,870
Speaker 4: Well, I don't know. I mean, my family, so my

1005
00:53:43,910 --> 00:53:48,430
Speaker 4: family's heritage is Jewish. That's just data.

1006
00:53:48,489 --> 00:53:51,109
Speaker 3: So, you know, I think if my parents didn't find

1007
00:53:51,150 --> 00:53:54,109
Speaker 3: Scientology and I didn't find Scientology, then I probably would

1008
00:53:54,150 --> 00:53:56,750
Speaker 3: have followed that path. I mean, I think religion in

1009
00:53:56,790 --> 00:54:00,410
Speaker 3: general is, it's so much, people are so much better

1010
00:54:00,510 --> 00:54:04,310
Speaker 3: off following a religion than not following a religion.

1011
00:54:06,690 --> 00:54:09,609
Speaker 4: I have never thought about that question like you have.

1012
00:54:10,230 --> 00:54:12,750
Speaker 4: Sounds like you've thought that through and would have an answer,

1013
00:54:12,810 --> 00:54:14,010
Speaker 4: but I don't.

1014
00:54:14,180 --> 00:54:16,620
Speaker 1: It's partly my job, and that's fair. I sprung that

1015
00:54:16,700 --> 00:54:19,359
Speaker 1: one on you. Last question is, if you could ask

1016
00:54:19,420 --> 00:54:21,890
Speaker 1: a Christian anything, what would it be?

1017
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:27,540
Speaker 4: I would ask, let's see, it's a good question.

1018
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:33,919
Speaker 3: Well, really like what's most important to you about your faith?

1019
00:54:36,580 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 4: And what does it mean to you, I guess, is

1020
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 4: another way of phrasing that.

1021
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 1: That's a great question. I appreciate that you asked that.

1022
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:45,069
Speaker 1: What's most important to me is the person of Jesus Christ,

1023
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:49,470
Speaker 1: hands down. I think he's the only one who lived

1024
00:54:49,570 --> 00:54:54,310
Speaker 1: a sinless life, I think it's really clear from John 1,

1025
00:54:54,310 --> 00:54:59,049
Speaker 1: from John 8, from John 10, from Titus 2.13, I

1026
00:54:59,070 --> 00:55:02,239
Speaker 1: could go on, that Jesus uniquely claimed to be God.

1027
00:55:03,219 --> 00:55:06,240
Speaker 1: He's the only major religious figure who didn't point towards

1028
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 1: God but claimed to be God. And I heard you

1029
00:55:09,780 --> 00:55:13,360
Speaker 1: use terms earlier about sin and transgression and debt. I

1030
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:17,060
Speaker 1: think we have this sense of like a debt that

1031
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:21,150
Speaker 1: we have to pay off. Part of what draws me

1032
00:55:21,210 --> 00:55:23,720
Speaker 1: so much to Jesus, and I'll be honest with you,

1033
00:55:23,790 --> 00:55:26,730
Speaker 1: I get emotional thinking about this, is that he paid

1034
00:55:26,770 --> 00:55:31,549
Speaker 1: a debt that I could not pay. I cannot work

1035
00:55:31,630 --> 00:55:32,330
Speaker 1: off my sins.

1036
00:55:33,030 --> 00:55:33,430
Speaker 4: I can't.

1037
00:55:34,050 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody else can. But I think the Bible,

1038
00:55:38,340 --> 00:55:41,660
Speaker 1: which I obviously would consider scripture, makes it clear that

1039
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:45,400
Speaker 1: Jesus is God in human flesh. His teachings are profound.

1040
00:55:46,420 --> 00:55:49,420
Speaker 1: He's human like us, can relate to us. pay the

1041
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:52,970
Speaker 1: debt to God and offers us eternal life if we

1042
00:55:53,010 --> 00:55:56,870
Speaker 1: will be humble enough to repent of our sins and

1043
00:55:57,050 --> 00:56:00,170
Speaker 1: accept the offer of salvation. So the heart of my

1044
00:56:00,230 --> 00:56:04,150
Speaker 1: faith is the person Jesus. And I personally find it

1045
00:56:04,489 --> 00:56:08,820
Speaker 1: really interesting that every religion wants a piece of Jesus.

1046
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:12,580
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've thought about that, but outside

1047
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:16,350
Speaker 1: of Islam, nobody really claims Muhammad. Outside of Buddhism, nobody

1048
00:56:16,370 --> 00:56:20,150
Speaker 1: really claims Buddha except maybe some New Agers. Outside of Hinduism,

1049
00:56:20,250 --> 00:56:25,489
Speaker 1: nobody claims Krishna. Everybody wants Jesus. They all want a

1050
00:56:25,530 --> 00:56:26,270
Speaker 1: piece of Jesus.

1051
00:56:26,650 --> 00:56:27,010
Speaker 4: Why?

1052
00:56:27,850 --> 00:56:30,340
Speaker 1: There's something about the life that he lived and the

1053
00:56:30,510 --> 00:56:33,589
Speaker 1: impact that he had that is compelling to me. When

1054
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,420
Speaker 1: I think about it, it moves me to tears. I

1055
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:39,180
Speaker 1: guess that would be my answer to your question, but

1056
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:41,340
Speaker 1: I appreciate you asking that. That was a very genuine,

1057
00:56:42,060 --> 00:56:45,450
Speaker 1: heartfelt question. What question would you have I.

1058
00:56:45,690 --> 00:56:48,150
Speaker 4: Just want to say thank you. That was fascinating and beautiful,

1059
00:56:48,430 --> 00:56:48,930
Speaker 4: that answer.

1060
00:56:49,130 --> 00:56:51,879
Speaker 1: Appreciate that. What would you ask a Christian?

1061
00:56:52,430 --> 00:56:54,980
Speaker 2: So I would be curious as to, like, for you,

1062
00:56:55,219 --> 00:56:59,020
Speaker 2: what does faith look like or mean on a daily basis? Like,

1063
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:03,660
Speaker 2: how do you practice or follow your faith each day?

1064
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:06,920
Speaker 1: That's a great question. So for me, one of the

1065
00:57:06,940 --> 00:57:09,959
Speaker 1: things I do is I will read the scriptures every

1066
00:57:09,980 --> 00:57:13,089
Speaker 1: morning if I can. I mean, it Honestly, I was

1067
00:57:13,130 --> 00:57:15,730
Speaker 1: up at 4.30 this morning and I just opened the

1068
00:57:15,770 --> 00:57:19,350
Speaker 1: scriptures and I read it and I devour it and

1069
00:57:19,370 --> 00:57:23,820
Speaker 1: I think it's transformative. And then I would argue by

1070
00:57:23,860 --> 00:57:26,620
Speaker 1: the power of the Holy Spirit inside of me, try

1071
00:57:26,660 --> 00:57:28,860
Speaker 1: to live that out in my relationship with my wife,

1072
00:57:29,580 --> 00:57:34,940
Speaker 1: with my kids, with my finances, try to live the

1073
00:57:35,020 --> 00:57:39,090
Speaker 1: life that Jesus would want me to live. And hopefully,

1074
00:57:39,110 --> 00:57:42,420
Speaker 1: I think we're called to go out and make disciples.

1075
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 1: That's what it means. That's one of the great commissions

1076
00:57:44,860 --> 00:57:47,670
Speaker 1: Jesus gave when he ascended. It was like, go out

1077
00:57:47,830 --> 00:57:52,150
Speaker 1: and make disciples of all nations. And so me, you know,

1078
00:57:52,170 --> 00:57:55,010
Speaker 1: if I summed it up, part of what motivates me,

1079
00:57:55,070 --> 00:57:57,450
Speaker 1: I'm 50. So in a decade, you know, when you

1080
00:57:57,470 --> 00:57:59,740
Speaker 1: start turning 50, you're like, I'm definitely over the half

1081
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:04,040
Speaker 1: line here. And there's nobody playing professional sports in their 50s.

1082
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:07,420
Speaker 1: At 40, there's still a few people dragging on. At 50, nobody.

1083
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:10,430
Speaker 1: So you're like, my glory days are behind me. But,

1084
00:58:11,010 --> 00:58:13,410
Speaker 1: you know, the question for me is, will God say,

1085
00:58:13,730 --> 00:58:16,740
Speaker 1: well done, my good and faithful servant? Have I used

1086
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:20,030
Speaker 1: the gifts and opportunities that God has given me to

1087
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 1: follow the greatest commandment, which is to love God and

1088
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 1: love other people? So prayer, reading the scriptures, going to church,

1089
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:31,580
Speaker 1: talking to people about faith. When I mess up, asking

1090
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:36,900
Speaker 1: my kids for forgiveness, learning. It's just a daily process

1091
00:58:36,940 --> 00:58:40,020
Speaker 1: of trying to grow and become more like Christ. That's

1092
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:40,860
Speaker 1: what it looks like for me.

1093
00:58:41,420 --> 00:58:41,860
Speaker 4: Beautiful.

1094
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 1: So, yeah, thanks for that question. You guys have given

1095
00:58:45,450 --> 00:58:47,710
Speaker 1: us the gift, I would consider a gift, of opening

1096
00:58:47,730 --> 00:58:51,110
Speaker 1: up the doors, giving us a tour. Super kind to

1097
00:58:51,230 --> 00:58:54,630
Speaker 1: my family, entertained my son and his questions, and it

1098
00:58:54,650 --> 00:58:57,490
Speaker 1: was great. I loved it. I have a small gift

1099
00:58:57,630 --> 00:59:01,490
Speaker 1: for each one of you. My father, I told you

1100
00:59:01,510 --> 00:59:03,850
Speaker 1: a little about him, grew up in what you could

1101
00:59:03,870 --> 00:59:06,370
Speaker 1: describe as probably about as broken of a background as

1102
00:59:06,890 --> 00:59:09,830
Speaker 1: you could imagine. I mean, like his dad told him

1103
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:13,000
Speaker 1: he was a mistake and wasn't wanted. His father was

1104
00:59:13,060 --> 00:59:16,910
Speaker 1: an alcoholic in a really small town in Michigan. He

1105
00:59:16,950 --> 00:59:19,570
Speaker 1: lived with that shame. And to be honest, my dad

1106
00:59:19,610 --> 00:59:22,670
Speaker 1: was severely sexually abused for about seven years.

1107
00:59:23,170 --> 00:59:23,370
Speaker 5: Wow.

1108
00:59:23,610 --> 00:59:25,950
Speaker 1: By someone who took him and slammed him again. Until

1109
00:59:25,970 --> 00:59:27,810
Speaker 1: my dad slammed the man against the wall and said,

1110
00:59:27,850 --> 00:59:30,630
Speaker 1: if you touch me again, I'll kill you. And he

1111
00:59:30,670 --> 00:59:33,970
Speaker 1: saw some Christians whose lives were different. They had peace.

1112
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:36,700
Speaker 1: They had love for others. And he wanted that. And

1113
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:39,020
Speaker 1: he asked them one day, he was like, hey, why

1114
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:42,300
Speaker 1: are you guys different? And this girl looked at my dad,

1115
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:44,540
Speaker 1: and this is in the 50s, and she said, Jesus Christ.

1116
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:49,730
Speaker 1: My dad reacted, was like, that's garbage, nonsense. He died

1117
00:59:49,730 --> 00:59:52,270
Speaker 1: 2,000 years ago. And they're like, you think you're pretty smart.

1118
00:59:52,390 --> 00:59:54,690
Speaker 1: I challenge you to use your mind to prove Bible's

1119
00:59:54,750 --> 00:59:57,270
Speaker 1: false and this Christian story is a myth. He thought

1120
00:59:57,290 --> 00:59:58,610
Speaker 1: it was a joke. So he set out to write

1121
00:59:58,630 --> 01:00:01,960
Speaker 1: a book against it. Surprised by the evidence, ended up

1122
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:06,760
Speaker 1: becoming a Christian. And after six months of just studying

1123
01:00:06,820 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 1: the scriptures, really changed his life so much that he

1124
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:13,070
Speaker 1: was able to forgive my grandfather. The way that he

1125
01:00:13,110 --> 01:00:15,550
Speaker 1: had been an alcoholic and a terrible father and saw him,

1126
01:00:15,770 --> 01:00:18,110
Speaker 1: his life changed. He actually went to the man who

1127
01:00:19,030 --> 01:00:22,390
Speaker 1: sexually abused him and said, what you did was evil

1128
01:00:22,450 --> 01:00:24,830
Speaker 1: and it was wrong, but Jesus died for me. I

1129
01:00:24,890 --> 01:00:27,690
Speaker 1: forgive you. And if you believe in him, he's willing

1130
01:00:27,910 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 1: to forgive you as well. Anyways, that's the family I

1131
01:00:31,740 --> 01:00:34,100
Speaker 1: grew up in. Now, I did tell my dad, interestingly,

1132
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:36,240
Speaker 1: at one point I was like, I don't know that

1133
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:38,890
Speaker 1: I believe this. I have a lot of questions. I'm

1134
01:00:38,930 --> 01:00:41,390
Speaker 1: not sure I'm convinced. And he's like, seek after truth,

1135
01:00:41,570 --> 01:00:43,690
Speaker 1: follow it, you'll find it, et cetera. I wasn't threatened

1136
01:00:43,710 --> 01:00:47,390
Speaker 1: by that, which I really appreciated. Long story short, he

1137
01:00:47,430 --> 01:00:50,860
Speaker 1: wrote a book in 1977 called More Than a Carpenter.

1138
01:00:51,820 --> 01:00:53,480
Speaker 1: Never dreamed. He's like, if I could just sit down

1139
01:00:53,500 --> 01:00:55,940
Speaker 1: with somebody for two hours and talk about who Jesus is.

1140
01:00:56,850 --> 01:00:57,650
Speaker 4: This is what it would be.

1141
01:00:57,890 --> 01:01:02,350
Speaker 1: Never dreamed it'd be 30 million in print. And 120 languages. Well,

1142
01:01:02,370 --> 01:01:04,190
Speaker 1: we updated it together. Here's your gift for each one

1143
01:01:04,210 --> 01:01:07,530
Speaker 1: of you. But we updated it in 2024. And in

1144
01:01:07,570 --> 01:01:09,689
Speaker 1: some ways, it would take you the time to read

1145
01:01:09,750 --> 01:01:12,610
Speaker 1: it as pretty much our tour in our time today.

1146
01:01:12,630 --> 01:01:15,470
Speaker 1: So if you're interested or anybody here is like, you

1147
01:01:15,490 --> 01:01:18,510
Speaker 1: know what? I've learned what Scientology is. I'd be curious

1148
01:01:18,550 --> 01:01:21,310
Speaker 1: what Christians believe. First off, I'd say, don't read that first.

1149
01:01:21,430 --> 01:01:24,130
Speaker 1: Read the Gospel of John. Ask, who is this person?

1150
01:01:24,170 --> 01:01:24,530
Speaker 4: Jesus.

1151
01:01:24,990 --> 01:01:27,310
Speaker 1: And then that would be a case that I would

1152
01:01:27,350 --> 01:01:29,810
Speaker 1: lay out for why I think Christianity is true in

1153
01:01:29,830 --> 01:01:32,570
Speaker 1: Jesus God. So that's a gift. Any of you have

1154
01:01:32,610 --> 01:01:34,150
Speaker 1: questions about it, you're like, you know what, I'm curious.

1155
01:01:34,250 --> 01:01:36,130
Speaker 1: I'll drive back up here and I'll sit down. I

1156
01:01:36,150 --> 01:01:37,870
Speaker 1: would love to have coffee and talk about it with

1157
01:01:37,910 --> 01:01:40,230
Speaker 1: both of you. But that's a small way of saying

1158
01:01:40,270 --> 01:01:42,610
Speaker 1: thanks for opening up the doors and showing my family

1159
01:01:42,630 --> 01:01:43,090
Speaker 1: around today.

1160
01:01:43,110 --> 01:01:43,410
Speaker 3: Wow.

1161
01:01:44,010 --> 01:01:46,280
Speaker 5: Thank you very much, Sean. That's very nice.

1162
01:01:46,410 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 2: And honestly, thank you and your family for coming up

1163
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 2: and coming and talking to us and hearing us out

1164
01:01:53,660 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 2: and having this wonderful conversation.

1165
01:01:56,100 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 1: Well, that's how I feel about it.

1166
01:01:57,040 --> 01:01:57,560
Speaker 4: Likewise.

1167
01:01:57,860 --> 01:02:01,100
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Definitely going to read it. And

1168
01:02:01,700 --> 01:02:04,110
Speaker 3: I really appreciate you reaching out and that we had

1169
01:02:04,190 --> 01:02:05,330
Speaker 3: an opportunity to do this.

1170
01:02:05,770 --> 01:02:08,130
Speaker 1: Definitely going to read it. You didn't have to say that.

1171
01:02:08,150 --> 01:02:09,950
Speaker 1: So now I can fall up and be like, Jesse,

1172
01:02:10,010 --> 01:02:12,990
Speaker 1: you said definitely on camera.

1173
01:02:13,030 --> 01:02:14,419
Speaker 4: Call me in a month. It'll be done.

1174
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 2: Wow.

1175
01:02:14,980 --> 01:02:18,340
Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah. All right. I'm super impressed that you said that.

1176
01:02:18,460 --> 01:02:20,900
Speaker 1: This aside, I'd love to just Zoom and get your

1177
01:02:20,940 --> 01:02:21,540
Speaker 1: two cents on it.

1178
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 5: Absolutely.

1179
01:02:22,020 --> 01:02:22,510
Speaker 2: Not a debate.

1180
01:02:22,610 --> 01:02:23,610
Speaker 1: What do you think? What did you learn?

1181
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:24,030
Speaker 4: What did you agree?

1182
01:02:24,050 --> 01:02:26,230
Speaker 1: What did you disagree? I've done that with a number

1183
01:02:26,250 --> 01:02:28,090
Speaker 1: of people, and there's some of the most interesting conversations

1184
01:02:28,130 --> 01:02:30,950
Speaker 1: I've had. So you said definitely. I'm going to take

1185
01:02:30,970 --> 01:02:31,450
Speaker 1: you up on that.

1186
01:02:31,710 --> 01:02:32,310
Speaker 4: All right, friends.

1187
01:02:32,450 --> 01:02:35,370
Speaker 1: Thanks for watching. Tell us what you think. I imagine

1188
01:02:35,410 --> 01:02:37,830
Speaker 1: at this point you have a ton of questions about Scientology.

1189
01:02:37,950 --> 01:02:41,280
Speaker 1: You have a ton of questions about Christianity. Look into it.

1190
01:02:41,630 --> 01:02:44,170
Speaker 1: Do your research. And ultimately, I hope we ask the question,

1191
01:02:44,390 --> 01:02:49,290
Speaker 1: what is true? It's a big question. Make sure you subscribe.

1192
01:02:49,370 --> 01:02:52,130
Speaker 1: Let me know if conversations and tours like this are

1193
01:02:52,210 --> 01:02:55,220
Speaker 1: interesting and helpful to you. They take more expense and

1194
01:02:55,300 --> 01:02:58,620
Speaker 1: time than a typical interview does, but if it's valuable

1195
01:02:58,660 --> 01:03:00,600
Speaker 1: and interesting, let me know, and our team will keep

1196
01:03:00,660 --> 01:03:03,110
Speaker 1: putting it together. We'll see you next time.

1197
01:03:03,330 --> 01:03:04,490
Speaker 4: Thanks again, guys. Thank you.