WEBVTT - 7 Reasons Reincarnation is False 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:03.640 Life audio. 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:08.640 Is there a good reason to believe reincarnation is true? 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:12.440 Let's say this little boy's name is Sam, and he'll say, 0:00:12.480 --> 0:00:16.880 don't call me Sam anymore. My name is Peter. No, honey, 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:19.360 we gave you the name Sam. No, but I'm Peter. 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:22.320 I know I'm Peter, and I lived in the town 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:25.439 of x That's famous. Those are famous. Little kids have 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:26.240 a lot of details. 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:29.520 On a popular level, so many people in America, some 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:33.159 who claimed to be Christians and worldwide, embrace reincarnation. 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:37.320 The best critique is this, I will take either discarnate 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:41.519 possession or demon possession. These are almost toss ups. I 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:44.680 don't like demon possession, but discarnate is a toughie, and 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:46.559 I think it's a good rival and position. 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:50.240 One third of all Americans claim to believe in reincarnation, 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:54.280 and the number is even higher among millennials and gen z. 0:00:55.000 --> 0:00:57.960 Is there a good reason to believe reincarnation is true? 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:02.720 Do near death experiences evidence for reincarnation? And how does 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:06.160 the evidence for reincarnation compare with the evidence for the 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:09.560 resurrection of Jesus. Our guest today is perhaps the world's 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:13.119 leading expert on the resurrection, been on this show many 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:16.559 times a personal friend, doctor Gary Harbrmos, thanks for coming back. 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:20.119 I am glad to be with you. Doctor Sean. 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:23.640 Well, on that note, let's jump in. I've actually been 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:26.480 thinking about this episode for a long time. I've never 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:29.920 done a deep dive on this, and it's so prevalent 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:32.880 today that in some ways I'm surprised that I haven't. 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:36.039 But let me start by just asking this question. When 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:38.479 you wrote your book Beyond Death, there's about a quarter 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:41.080 of Americans say the turn of the twenty first century 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:44.560 bleeds to reincarnation. Now it's about a third. Why do 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:47.960 you think so many Americans and beyond believe in it? 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:52.080 I think there's a lot of answers to that, But 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:54.680 just to mention a few off the top of the 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:59.320 the bat here, I don't think it's for intellectual reasons 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:02.720 for the most part. Now, remember you work on one 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:04.480 side of the ocean, and I work on the other 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.200 side of the ocean. It's not as common over here. 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:09.919 I have to introduce it to my students. They don't 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:13.120 bring it up. I mean, I mean PhD students. They 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:17.680 don't bring it up in philosophy or in PhD apologetics 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:20.080 classes and say, hey, I've been having to deal with 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:24.400 the reincarnation. Lady, I haven't heard this objection in years, 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:27.760 so I think it does have a lot to do 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:30.959 with where you live. I think that's one thing. Another thing, 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:35.280 I think this generation, these generations that you mentioned, are 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:40.839 not real well grounded. When I see surveys on how 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:46.200 scholarship goes for college students, I hear more and more 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:50.160 things like, oh, I'm doing all my degrees online. What 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:52.200 do you have to do? Not a lot. I just 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:55.240 kind of read these articles and I read a few 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:57.640 paragraphs and I'm ready to go. I think up some 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:01.280 good reasons and I could you know? And and then 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:05.920 I see something on Wikipedia or something and it says 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:08.560 college students today, I think they're scholars after reading an 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:11.760 article and they usually quit halfway through the article. So 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:16.640 I'm not putting down college kids. I don't teach that level. 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:20.760 I teach PhD students. But it's like, no one's into 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:23.400 reading and studying now. It's like, go on your phone 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:25.959 and read a few things. And I think we are 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:30.560 into I don't want to say equality and religion, but 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:34.519 I think we are into plurality. I think we are 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:38.720 into anything goes. I think we are into well, I 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:40.800 don't want to put you down, and I don't want 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:43.320 to say your view is false. And what about the 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:46.600 problem of evil? Well, come on, I know what the 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:49.040 Bible says, but things have changed a lot, and I 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:55.320 kind of think God will approve of anybody who seeks him. Honestly, 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:57.400 you know, I think it's all those things. I think 0:03:57.400 --> 0:04:03.360 it's changing world views and changing times, not well thought 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:04.120 out positions. 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:06.880 That's really fair that. The only thing I would throw 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:08.960 in there is we've just seen such an explosion of 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:13.680 interest in Eastern religions and new spiritualities over the past 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:16.360 few decades, and I argue the past two or three 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:19.760 years there's kind of this growth and interest in supernatural 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:23.080 phenomenon and we're seeing the data and millennial and gen 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:26.480 z express that interest. But of course they're not shifting 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:31.280 back towards historic Christianity traditional faiths always, but sometimes in 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:34.640 New Age Now, I think it might be really helpful 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:39.160 to define what we mean by reincarnation and maybe compare 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:42.920 and contrast what reincarnation is and how it's similar and 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:45.400 or different from what we mean by resurrection. 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:50.120 Sure, I would say that, Well, I'll tell you what. 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:53.880 Let me use the definition of the he's passed away 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:56.200 now a few years ago, but he was known as 0:04:56.240 --> 0:05:00.240 the world's leading scholar and reincarnation had a very to 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:03.760 his position. He was a psychiatrist in the area of 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:07.680 brain sciences at University of Virginia, one of the top 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:11.600 universities in the country, and his name was Ian Stevenson. 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:14.680 Last time I heard, well, I mean he's passed away now. 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:17.880 But years ago i'd heard that he'd written five books 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:22.080 on reincarnation and one maybe the best known one published 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:25.800 by the University of Virginia Press, was called Twenty Cases 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:32.520 Suggestive of Reincarnation. And he was a nice guy, well spoken. 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:36.400 I'd never found him to be dogmatic. He would lay 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:38.600 data out there, and when you would give data on 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.960 the other side, he'd say, hey, I understand, I can 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:44.800 roll with that. I just think there's some data for reincarnation. 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:48.039 And you say, well, here's a comeback or two. He'd say, hey, 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:50.000 you give me your one or two and I'll give 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:52.600 you a couple more reasons. That why reincarnation is kind 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:55.719 of you know, you know, that's why his books entitled 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:59.760 twenty Cases Suggestive. And here's how he defines it. He says, 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:07.440 re incarnation is when one spirit enters another person, but 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:14.840 in between conception and birth. That's reincarnation. Possession, which he 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:17.760 does a lot of talking about and I will too. 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:25.480 Possession is a spirit entering another person's spirit in between 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:30.760 birth and life, sometime in the living process. But reincarnation 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:35.320 is prior to birth, between conception and birth, and that's 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:38.760 going to become really significant here as we get talking, 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:42.760 because there's some cases that Stevenson gives where he says, well, 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:46.719 I've found some cases I think reincarnation's true, but I'll 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:50.880 give you a couple cases where reincarnation by my definition 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:54.200 is not true and it looks more like possession, and 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:56.720 he just says things just I mean, he's I think 0:06:56.720 --> 0:06:57.839 he's pretty straightforward. 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:03.359 So reincarnation is a soul that stays constant over time 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:08.200 and reanimates a new body sometime between say birth and 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:11.520 conception or conception and birth. 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:13.480 That's correct, conception and birth. 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:18.720 Possession would be a separate, at least one additional spirit 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:23.520 taking over an existing spirit that is animating a body, 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:25.520 so there's at least two, or in the case of 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:31.680 the demoniac, there's multiple possessing the individual. That's one key distinction, 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:35.120 define resurrection for. 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:38.120 Us sean before I go to resurrection, I'd be glad 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:40.440 to do that, of course. But let's how about a 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:46.440 third definition. Okay, what's the difference between possession and oppression? 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:50.840 Because in some of the some of the best treatments 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:54.760 of possession, and there's more than one kind, by the way, 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:59.960 but some of the best cases of possession are oppression. 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:03.520 And you say, well, that's that's not possession. No it's not. 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:06.880 But some of the books will say possession can be 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:10.760 so strong that many people will think it's a case 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:14.520 of possession. In other words, as a clouding of definitions 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:19.480 between oppression and possession. So you can be really bothered 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:22.560 but not really infiltrated. If that makes. 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:23.840 Sense, Yeah, it does. 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:24.320 So. 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:29.880 Reincarnation would be an individual soul that would have multiple lives, 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:32.959 lived through different bodies at different times. And of course 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:35.440 we don't have to go there, but in some faiths 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:37.640 it would be a common soul that takes over a 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:42.880 non human body for a season or a time. But reincarnation, 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:46.120 I'm sorry, resurrection give us a definition of what we 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:46.760 mean by that. 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:54.880 Resurrection is usually a definition where one person dies and 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:59.720 lives again. Now, that person. There's different discussions about what 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:02.920 this new body is, and boy, this could take us 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:04.679 all day, so you don't want to you don't want 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:06.599 to go to a lot of detail here. But the 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:12.640 traditional Christian response is that after the death of a 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:19.079 human body, there's an uh, well, colloquial language would be 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:23.680 an in between state. But this state right after death 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:28.840 is usually believed to be disembodied. So I love what 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:33.800 Peter Krefft says that the Thomas philosopher who he accepts 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:37.760 the Thomas accept the Thomas and the Aristotelian tradition, not 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:41.120 the Platonist one. But he still says this comment about 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:46.000 the intermediate state. He says Plato is right as far 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:49.400 as he went, and I think the great comment. In 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:53.280 other words, the Christian view tewod Corinthians five seems to 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:57.000 be that immediate after death, immediately after death the person 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:02.160 is does not live and in between ron falses you're 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:05.240 still with the Lord and it's better than here. But 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:10.640 he says I wished I weren't here too long, because 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:14.240 twice in those ten verses and second Corinthians five he says, 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:16.920 I don't want to be found naked, and the Greek 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:22.600 word there naked refers to bodyless. So if you go 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:24.560 back to Peter Craft, he's going to say, yep, that's 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:26.680 my point, because I'm atoms and I believe we have 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:29.480 to be re embodied to be our full persons. But 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:32.640 there is an intermediate state and then there's a final 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:38.720 state resurrection has to do. The traditional Christian view is 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:43.000 living forever, and you can't say in a different body, 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:46.439 but you'd say, you'd say living forever and your body, 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:49.160 but for eternity, and. 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:53.000 Of course that is a transformed now immortal body that 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:56.160 won't die again, as Paul says in one Corinthians fifteen. 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.960 So oftentimes feel think resurrection is just coming back to life. 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:03.360 But like we saw with those Elijah and Paul raised, 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:07.040 and the three Jesus raised Lazarus, son of the widow 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:09.480 at Nane and the daughter of Gyrus, they were to 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:15.000 die again. Resurrected body is animated for eternity. Although physical, 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:18.360 it's our same body, but even greater than it is 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:20.120 here with the limitations of sin. 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:24.600 What right? And usually it said that that starts after 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:29.120 the return of Christ. Whatever, you know, there's different views 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:33.520 on you know what that is too. You know did 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:36.040 did well? I don't want to. 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:38.800 Yeah, don't worry about that right now. We'll get a 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:39.760 side on that. 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:42.960 But it's after Christ came back, and that's the Christian 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:45.800 view exactly. It's a new body. It's a new body, 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:47.240 but it's my body. Yeah. 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.720 And the key distinction and re incarnation, you die, come back, die, 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:54.760 come back many or potentially infant number of times. Resurrection 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:58.720 you die once and you face judgment. That's the key 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:01.760 difference here for people to see. Now you lay out 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:03.320 in your book, you have a chapter on this and 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:06.160 Beyond Death where you give some of the different kinds 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:11.160 of evidence is often cited for reincarnation. List out some 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:12.400 of those for us if you will. 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:15.840 Yeah, I think I give five in that chapter. So 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:19.360 it's not like reincarnation are so stupid you can't think 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:22.200 of any reason for it. But I think by far, 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:27.680 if I believe the reincarnation, my chief evidence would be cases, 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:30.520 very well known cases. Now you don't have very long 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:35.960 to look for them. Children who will give you example. 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:41.120 You have to use Indian names. You usually mariincarnation happens 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:45.240 in Indian or Indian friendly cultures. That's not always a case, 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:51.400 but let's say, this little boy's name is Sam, and 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:55.120 sometime after his birth, he could be very young, he 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:58.880 could be three or four, and he'll say, don't call 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:04.720 me Sam anymore. My name is Peter. No, honey, we 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:08.160 gave you the name Sam. No, but I'm Peter. I 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:10.679 know I'm Peter. And I lived in the town of 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:14.840 X and I even remember who my parents were, and 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:18.720 I remember the house. It looks like this. And they'll say, well, well, 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:22.480 that's true or false, you know, and he'll say, no, no, no, 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:24.440 it looks like this. And when you go in the house, 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:27.679 you turn left and you go down the hallway and 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:31.280 the third room on the right is my bedroom. And 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:34.720 so the parents do a little bit of checking and 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.240 they find out, you know, because he tells them the 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:40.920 town and where's a house like this? And this culture 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:43.360 is really open to this. They've heard these stories. So 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:47.080 other parents are used to helping you do this. And 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:49.959 they bring the little guy there, the newly made Peter, 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:53.120 and he takes you to the house and turns left 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:55.280 and goes down and there's his bedroom. He goes, well, 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:57.439 they've changed this all around, but my bed used to 0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:00.360 be over there underneath the window. So he knows a 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:03.320 lot about this, and that's famous. Those are famous. Little 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:07.400 kids have a lot of details. Lesser examples, but they 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:11.120 can still be something that convinces some people. Of course, 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:18.880 would be cases of scars. Let's see, let's say Sam 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:25.880 slash Peter talks to the parents and they say, oh, yeah, 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:31.600 he had this real strange birthmark on his left shoulder. 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:35.120 Oh you mean like this, And the guy pulls his 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:39.080 shirt down and they go, yeah, just like that. Where 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:42.880 did you get that? So birthmarks are deformities, a limp 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:48.240 and the same leg that the other boy had. Sometimes 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:52.560 these people can even tell you where the boys are buried. 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:59.080 But a deformity or a scar, that's one we're familiar 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:02.880 with us and Christian. But glossolalia or speaking in tongues. 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:08.520 This guy might start rattling off a different language and 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:12.800 he might talk in the dialect that Peter spoke in. 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:16.160 But remember his name, his given name is Sam, and 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:18.960 he starts talking to that language. So there's three of 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:21.080 them right there, and those are three of the best ones. 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:24.320 The main one is details, I can tell you where 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:28.200 I lived, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and deformities. 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:32.680 Speaking in tongues. I mean by that not your birth language, 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:34.280 but you're pretty good at it and you're only four 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:35.240 years old. Yeah. 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:37.680 So that's a great list. And the other one that 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:39.360 we're going to get to is some of the so 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:43.640 called biblical evidence in favor of reincarnation. That's really interesting. 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.080 We'll take that one by one. Now we're going to 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:48.680 walk through some of the claims. Get your response to it. 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:50.680 But the way you frame this the first time I 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:53.520 read this chapter years ago was really eye opening to me. 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:54.360 Here's what you said. 0:15:55.360 --> 0:16:00.440 You said, are there other hypotheses other than reincarnation that 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:04.960 can account for much of the same data? In other words, 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:08.520 if there are two hypotheses that explain the data equally 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:13.160 or at least sufficiently, how do many reincarnation experts choose 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:17.640 and how should we choose which option between those two 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:19.320 is the best? 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:25.440 Okay, let me use Ian Stevenson. Now people may have 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:27.560 missed this, but when I call them a psychiatrist, you 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:31.120 remember a psychiatrist as an MD. A psychologist is a 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:34.920 best a PhD. So he's a medical doctor University of Virginia. 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:37.960 He's really up on this stuff from medical viewpoint, and 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:41.800 he admits in his book. I cite the book several 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:46.280 times in that chapter, and he himself says, the best 0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:53.640 two hypotheses are reincarnation and possession. And several times throughout 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:57.440 well the chapter where I cite him several times, you'll say, 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:01.720 and actually here possession and seems like it's pretty good. 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:05.800 And then he'll introduce he'll introduce another problem. He'll go, well, 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:10.239 there's a number of ways to explain this, but the 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:12.359 best to, well, we can just cut to the chase. 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:17.359 The best to are still reincarnation and possession. He says 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:18.960 it over and over again. Now you may have a 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:20.960 quote there. I've got one here. I can read it 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:24.720 if you want please. This is this is Ian Stevenson himself, 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:27.679 the lading leading scholar. And it's not because he's like 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:31.120 not a believer. He wrote the book twenty cases suggests 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:34.480 of reincarnation. Here he is. He says that the data 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:39.520 fall quote a long continuum in which the distinction between 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:44.800 reincarnation and possession becomes blurred close quote. Then he says 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:50.760 another statement, the data quote do not permit a firm 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:56.720 decision between the hypothesis of possession and reincarnation. Close quote. 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:01.200 Now it seems like he He definitely is saying these 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:04.920 are the two best, but it almost sounds at points 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:07.000 I got another one here. I can read you, but 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:09.360 it almost sounds like he thinks it's a toss up. 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:15.199 Now he'll tell you why he doesn't like. Well, this 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:16.560 is I don't know how far you want to go 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:19.040 to the shoan, but this is going to involve two 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:24.480 definitions of possession, and some Christians are going to be 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:29.440 very ill at ease with one of the two definitions. 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:31.840 But I'll just define them and you can go where 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:36.760 you want. Of course, one is called discarnate possession, and 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:40.440 I'll define that, and the other one is demon possession. 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:45.159 Now this is interesting. I can only guess what's in 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:49.239 this man's mind, this doctor, the medical doctor. But uh, 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:55.280 Stevenson makes the comment, of those two options, discarnate and demon, 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:59.480 I don't prefer the demon one, and I'm thinking, wow, 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:03.359 let me think through this. You already believe in the supernatural, 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:08.399 I think, yeah, I you know, I believe in reincarnation. Okay, 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:11.240 so you're already open to the supernatural, and you think 0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:16.360 there is a supernatural slash spiritual realm. Yeah, you don't 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:20.640 like demon possession though, No, he could say, well, that's 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:23.080 a Christian view. Well, that's it's not true. You can 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:27.240 find demon possession in many world religions, I mean major ones. 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:31.000 But he could say yeah, and I'm just guessing her Sean, 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:34.439 I don't know, but he could say, demon possession implies 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:38.000 a satan, and whether or not you believe in a satan, 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:41.080 there's probably a hell or a bad place to go. 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:44.720 And that's the my religion doesn't believe that. I think 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:50.360 he's rejecting it for a damnation slash judgment slash you know, okay, 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:52.679 and Christianity again is not the only one that believes that. 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:55.200 But he does say that's not my favorite. Now here's 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:58.360 the one that's going to cause some trouble. I think, okay, 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:02.440 just discard it. Possession d I s c A r 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:08.520 n A TE discarnate possession. Discarnate possession is the possession 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:15.719 of one individual by a second, previously deceased individual. But 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:24.440 they're both human beings and person a after death can enter. 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:28.760 Now again, what's what's the what you know, what definition 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:32.320 you're going to use. But if you believe in reincarnation, 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:37.960 you want him to enter another body between conception and birth. 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:41.119 If you like the what we might call more of 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:45.600 a Western Christian Jewish discardate view. Not too many people 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:49.200 talk about this, but it would be after that person's birth. 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:51.639 So it sounds a little bit like demon possession, but 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:56.280 it's possession by another individual. And you tell me whether 0:20:56.280 --> 0:20:58.720 you want to go any further. But here's the only 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:01.280 thing I want to say about it. We'd say, no, 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:07.760 God doesn't let one a deceased spirit into the body 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:10.720 of another one. And I'd say, how do you know that? 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:15.119 And they'd say, well, Hebrews chapter nine says it's a 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:18.159 you know, it's a point that that man wants to die. 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:20.280 And after the judgment, Well, I think that's kind of 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:22.959 an odd verse. It might be your best shot. But 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:26.000 which judgment do you mean? And if it's the judgment 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:27.679 at the end of time, golly, there's a lot of 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:32.280 time between fifty one a d And today. What's been 0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:35.000 going on all those years? And you say, well, I 0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:37.160 don't know. Maybe I can't give you a good verse. 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:40.400 I just don't think God would allow that. Okay, then 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:45.600 here's my comeback. Would Satan allow that? With Satan? When 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:48.159 Paul calls the God of this world, who has a 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:51.159 lot of power, who could do miracles, who can deceive 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:55.879 the very elect. Could he let the spirit of a 0:21:55.920 --> 0:22:01.359 person who is his person that he controls? Could he 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:05.199 mess Christians or others up by having the spirit of 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:08.760 a dead person enter a living person. All I'm saying is, 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:11.680 I don't say it's got to be true. But there's 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:14.960 a number of cult experts all bricked in others, there's 0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:18.160 a number of cult experts who believe you can't rule 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:21.880 it out. Biblically, there's no problem. So there's two kinds 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:26.919 human dead human spirit into a live human spirit or 0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:32.320 a demon, and I think it's good to have two options. 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:35.880 Here's my personal view. I don't think we can rule 0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:40.600 out this carrent possession, at least as the possible province 0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:46.040 of Satan himself over with regard to one of his minions. 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:50.240 He lets all kinds of strange things happen, even blaspheming God. 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:53.679 This isn't even that bad. So what's wrong with that? Well, 0:22:53.720 --> 0:22:55.680 I don't know. I just don't like it. Well, maybe 0:22:55.680 --> 0:22:57.479 you don't, But how do you dismiss it? 0:22:58.240 --> 0:23:01.760 You know, my mind is run wild with theological questions 0:23:01.760 --> 0:23:05.359 about discarnate possession. But let me hold that for a minute, 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:08.479 I want to make sure that our viewers are tracking 0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:11.919 with a point. So Ian Stevenson gives at least, you 0:23:11.960 --> 0:23:14.920 say it, at least five different lines of evidence for reincarnation. 0:23:15.680 --> 0:23:19.240 One of the strongest pieces are the multiple cases of 0:23:19.320 --> 0:23:25.080 children who have specific detail about names and places people live, 0:23:25.320 --> 0:23:29.199 activity that they did, and they discovered that it lines 0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:32.840 up and is likely true. You're convinced that at least 0:23:32.880 --> 0:23:37.280 something supernatural is taken here. And I say that because 0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:40.520 sometimes as Christians, when we see hear miracles in other 0:23:40.600 --> 0:23:45.960 religions like Islam and in say Mormonism, we can either 0:23:46.000 --> 0:23:48.919 explain and say no, it's false, miracle didn't happen, or 0:23:48.960 --> 0:23:54.600 explain away by supernatural forces arguably demonic. But in this case, 0:23:54.680 --> 0:23:56.880 in this line of reasoning, and you argue, there's enough 0:23:56.920 --> 0:23:59.880 here to make you think at least something supernatural is taken. 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:04.119 Is that fair insofar as it goes most likely. 0:24:04.320 --> 0:24:10.399 But in that chapter I give about twenty reputations. I 0:24:10.440 --> 0:24:14.560 have three, well, I have at least two major ones. 0:24:14.560 --> 0:24:16.719 If you want to count to two different kinds of possessions, 0:24:16.800 --> 0:24:19.359 now I have three. I have a bunch of little 0:24:19.400 --> 0:24:24.439 ones that just throw monkey wrenches into the reincarnation and 0:24:24.520 --> 0:24:26.120 one of them, here's a couple. 0:24:25.920 --> 0:24:28.160 Of them, hang on before before we come back, we're 0:24:28.160 --> 0:24:32.000 going to come to those critiques. And that's fair. But 0:24:32.240 --> 0:24:34.560 I want to draw out for people that say we 0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:39.840 have a murder suspect and we actually let's say we 0:24:39.880 --> 0:24:43.400 have a murder and we have two suspects that we're 0:24:43.520 --> 0:24:50.280