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Speaker 1: Life audio.

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Speaker 2: Is there a good reason to believe reincarnation is true?

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Speaker 1: Let's say this little boy's name is Sam, and he'll say,

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Speaker 1: don't call me Sam anymore. My name is Peter. No, honey,

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Speaker 1: we gave you the name Sam. No, but I'm Peter.

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Speaker 1: I know I'm Peter, and I lived in the town

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Speaker 1: of x That's famous. Those are famous. Little kids have

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Speaker 1: a lot of details.

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Speaker 2: On a popular level, so many people in America, some

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Speaker 2: who claimed to be Christians and worldwide, embrace reincarnation.

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Speaker 1: The best critique is this, I will take either discarnate

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Speaker 1: possession or demon possession. These are almost toss ups. I

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Speaker 1: don't like demon possession, but discarnate is a toughie, and

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Speaker 1: I think it's a good rival and position.

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Speaker 2: One third of all Americans claim to believe in reincarnation,

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Speaker 2: and the number is even higher among millennials and gen z.

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Speaker 2: Is there a good reason to believe reincarnation is true?

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Speaker 2: Do near death experiences evidence for reincarnation? And how does

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Speaker 2: the evidence for reincarnation compare with the evidence for the

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Speaker 2: resurrection of Jesus. Our guest today is perhaps the world's

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Speaker 2: leading expert on the resurrection, been on this show many

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Speaker 2: times a personal friend, doctor Gary Harbrmos, thanks for coming back.

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Speaker 1: I am glad to be with you. Doctor Sean.

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Speaker 2: Well, on that note, let's jump in. I've actually been

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Speaker 2: thinking about this episode for a long time. I've never

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Speaker 2: done a deep dive on this, and it's so prevalent

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Speaker 2: today that in some ways I'm surprised that I haven't.

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Speaker 2: But let me start by just asking this question. When

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Speaker 2: you wrote your book Beyond Death, there's about a quarter

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Speaker 2: of Americans say the turn of the twenty first century

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Speaker 2: bleeds to reincarnation. Now it's about a third. Why do

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Speaker 2: you think so many Americans and beyond believe in it?

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Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of answers to that, But

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Speaker 1: just to mention a few off the top of the

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Speaker 1: the bat here, I don't think it's for intellectual reasons

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Speaker 1: for the most part. Now, remember you work on one

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Speaker 1: side of the ocean, and I work on the other

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Speaker 1: side of the ocean. It's not as common over here.

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Speaker 1: I have to introduce it to my students. They don't

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Speaker 1: bring it up. I mean, I mean PhD students. They

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Speaker 1: don't bring it up in philosophy or in PhD apologetics

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Speaker 1: classes and say, hey, I've been having to deal with

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Speaker 1: the reincarnation. Lady, I haven't heard this objection in years,

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Speaker 1: so I think it does have a lot to do

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Speaker 1: with where you live. I think that's one thing. Another thing,

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Speaker 1: I think this generation, these generations that you mentioned, are

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Speaker 1: not real well grounded. When I see surveys on how

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Speaker 1: scholarship goes for college students, I hear more and more

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Speaker 1: things like, oh, I'm doing all my degrees online. What

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Speaker 1: do you have to do? Not a lot. I just

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Speaker 1: kind of read these articles and I read a few

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Speaker 1: paragraphs and I'm ready to go. I think up some

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Speaker 1: good reasons and I could you know? And and then

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Speaker 1: I see something on Wikipedia or something and it says

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Speaker 1: college students today, I think they're scholars after reading an

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Speaker 1: article and they usually quit halfway through the article. So

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Speaker 1: I'm not putting down college kids. I don't teach that level.

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Speaker 1: I teach PhD students. But it's like, no one's into

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Speaker 1: reading and studying now. It's like, go on your phone

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Speaker 1: and read a few things. And I think we are

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Speaker 1: into I don't want to say equality and religion, but

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Speaker 1: I think we are into plurality. I think we are

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Speaker 1: into anything goes. I think we are into well, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to put you down, and I don't want

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Speaker 1: to say your view is false. And what about the

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Speaker 1: problem of evil? Well, come on, I know what the

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Speaker 1: Bible says, but things have changed a lot, and I

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Speaker 1: kind of think God will approve of anybody who seeks him. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think it's all those things. I think

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Speaker 1: it's changing world views and changing times, not well thought

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Speaker 1: out positions.

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Speaker 2: That's really fair that. The only thing I would throw

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Speaker 2: in there is we've just seen such an explosion of

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Speaker 2: interest in Eastern religions and new spiritualities over the past

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Speaker 2: few decades, and I argue the past two or three

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Speaker 2: years there's kind of this growth and interest in supernatural

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Speaker 2: phenomenon and we're seeing the data and millennial and gen

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Speaker 2: z express that interest. But of course they're not shifting

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Speaker 2: back towards historic Christianity traditional faiths always, but sometimes in

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Speaker 2: New Age Now, I think it might be really helpful

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Speaker 2: to define what we mean by reincarnation and maybe compare

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Speaker 2: and contrast what reincarnation is and how it's similar and

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Speaker 2: or different from what we mean by resurrection.

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Speaker 1: Sure, I would say that, Well, I'll tell you what.

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Speaker 1: Let me use the definition of the he's passed away

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Speaker 1: now a few years ago, but he was known as

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Speaker 1: the world's leading scholar and reincarnation had a very to

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Speaker 1: his position. He was a psychiatrist in the area of

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Speaker 1: brain sciences at University of Virginia, one of the top

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Speaker 1: universities in the country, and his name was Ian Stevenson.

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Speaker 1: Last time I heard, well, I mean he's passed away now.

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Speaker 1: But years ago i'd heard that he'd written five books

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Speaker 1: on reincarnation and one maybe the best known one published

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Speaker 1: by the University of Virginia Press, was called Twenty Cases

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Speaker 1: Suggestive of Reincarnation. And he was a nice guy, well spoken.

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Speaker 1: I'd never found him to be dogmatic. He would lay

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Speaker 1: data out there, and when you would give data on

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Speaker 1: the other side, he'd say, hey, I understand, I can

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Speaker 1: roll with that. I just think there's some data for reincarnation.

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Speaker 1: And you say, well, here's a comeback or two. He'd say, hey,

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Speaker 1: you give me your one or two and I'll give

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Speaker 1: you a couple more reasons. That why reincarnation is kind

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Speaker 1: of you know, you know, that's why his books entitled

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Speaker 1: twenty Cases Suggestive. And here's how he defines it. He says,

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Speaker 1: re incarnation is when one spirit enters another person, but

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Speaker 1: in between conception and birth. That's reincarnation. Possession, which he

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Speaker 1: does a lot of talking about and I will too.

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Speaker 1: Possession is a spirit entering another person's spirit in between

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Speaker 1: birth and life, sometime in the living process. But reincarnation

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Speaker 1: is prior to birth, between conception and birth, and that's

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Speaker 1: going to become really significant here as we get talking,

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Speaker 1: because there's some cases that Stevenson gives where he says, well,

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Speaker 1: I've found some cases I think reincarnation's true, but I'll

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Speaker 1: give you a couple cases where reincarnation by my definition

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Speaker 1: is not true and it looks more like possession, and

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Speaker 1: he just says things just I mean, he's I think

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Speaker 1: he's pretty straightforward.

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Speaker 2: So reincarnation is a soul that stays constant over time

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Speaker 2: and reanimates a new body sometime between say birth and

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Speaker 2: conception or conception and birth.

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Speaker 1: That's correct, conception and birth.

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Speaker 2: Possession would be a separate, at least one additional spirit

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Speaker 2: taking over an existing spirit that is animating a body,

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Speaker 2: so there's at least two, or in the case of

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Speaker 2: the demoniac, there's multiple possessing the individual. That's one key distinction,

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Speaker 2: define resurrection for.

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Speaker 1: Us sean before I go to resurrection, I'd be glad

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Speaker 1: to do that, of course. But let's how about a

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Speaker 1: third definition. Okay, what's the difference between possession and oppression?

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Speaker 1: Because in some of the some of the best treatments

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Speaker 1: of possession, and there's more than one kind, by the way,

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Speaker 1: but some of the best cases of possession are oppression.

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Speaker 1: And you say, well, that's that's not possession. No it's not.

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Speaker 1: But some of the books will say possession can be

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Speaker 1: so strong that many people will think it's a case

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Speaker 1: of possession. In other words, as a clouding of definitions

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Speaker 1: between oppression and possession. So you can be really bothered

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Speaker 1: but not really infiltrated. If that makes.

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Speaker 2: Sense, Yeah, it does.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 2: Reincarnation would be an individual soul that would have multiple lives,

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Speaker 2: lived through different bodies at different times. And of course

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Speaker 2: we don't have to go there, but in some faiths

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Speaker 2: it would be a common soul that takes over a

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Speaker 2: non human body for a season or a time. But reincarnation,

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, resurrection give us a definition of what we

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Speaker 2: mean by that.

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Speaker 1: Resurrection is usually a definition where one person dies and

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Speaker 1: lives again. Now, that person. There's different discussions about what

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Speaker 1: this new body is, and boy, this could take us

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Speaker 1: all day, so you don't want to you don't want

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Speaker 1: to go to a lot of detail here. But the

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Speaker 1: traditional Christian response is that after the death of a

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Speaker 1: human body, there's an uh, well, colloquial language would be

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Speaker 1: an in between state. But this state right after death

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Speaker 1: is usually believed to be disembodied. So I love what

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Speaker 1: Peter Krefft says that the Thomas philosopher who he accepts

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Speaker 1: the Thomas accept the Thomas and the Aristotelian tradition, not

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Speaker 1: the Platonist one. But he still says this comment about

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Speaker 1: the intermediate state. He says Plato is right as far

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Speaker 1: as he went, and I think the great comment. In

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Speaker 1: other words, the Christian view tewod Corinthians five seems to

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Speaker 1: be that immediate after death, immediately after death the person

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Speaker 1: is does not live and in between ron falses you're

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Speaker 1: still with the Lord and it's better than here. But

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Speaker 1: he says I wished I weren't here too long, because

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Speaker 1: twice in those ten verses and second Corinthians five he says,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to be found naked, and the Greek

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Speaker 1: word there naked refers to bodyless. So if you go

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Speaker 1: back to Peter Craft, he's going to say, yep, that's

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Speaker 1: my point, because I'm atoms and I believe we have

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Speaker 1: to be re embodied to be our full persons. But

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Speaker 1: there is an intermediate state and then there's a final

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Speaker 1: state resurrection has to do. The traditional Christian view is

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Speaker 1: living forever, and you can't say in a different body,

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Speaker 1: but you'd say, you'd say living forever and your body,

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Speaker 1: but for eternity, and.

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Speaker 2: Of course that is a transformed now immortal body that

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Speaker 2: won't die again, as Paul says in one Corinthians fifteen.

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Speaker 2: So oftentimes feel think resurrection is just coming back to life.

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Speaker 2: But like we saw with those Elijah and Paul raised,

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Speaker 2: and the three Jesus raised Lazarus, son of the widow

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Speaker 2: at Nane and the daughter of Gyrus, they were to

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Speaker 2: die again. Resurrected body is animated for eternity. Although physical,

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Speaker 2: it's our same body, but even greater than it is

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Speaker 2: here with the limitations of sin.

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Speaker 1: What right? And usually it said that that starts after

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Speaker 1: the return of Christ. Whatever, you know, there's different views

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Speaker 1: on you know what that is too. You know did

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Speaker 1: did well? I don't want to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, don't worry about that right now. We'll get a

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Speaker 2: side on that.

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Speaker 1: But it's after Christ came back, and that's the Christian

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Speaker 1: view exactly. It's a new body. It's a new body,

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Speaker 1: but it's my body. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And the key distinction and re incarnation, you die, come back, die,

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Speaker 2: come back many or potentially infant number of times. Resurrection

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Speaker 2: you die once and you face judgment. That's the key

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Speaker 2: difference here for people to see. Now you lay out

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Speaker 2: in your book, you have a chapter on this and

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Speaker 2: Beyond Death where you give some of the different kinds

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Speaker 2: of evidence is often cited for reincarnation. List out some

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Speaker 2: of those for us if you will.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I give five in that chapter. So

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Speaker 1: it's not like reincarnation are so stupid you can't think

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Speaker 1: of any reason for it. But I think by far,

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Speaker 1: if I believe the reincarnation, my chief evidence would be cases,

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Speaker 1: very well known cases. Now you don't have very long

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Speaker 1: to look for them. Children who will give you example.

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Speaker 1: You have to use Indian names. You usually mariincarnation happens

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Speaker 1: in Indian or Indian friendly cultures. That's not always a case,

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Speaker 1: but let's say, this little boy's name is Sam, and

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Speaker 1: sometime after his birth, he could be very young, he

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Speaker 1: could be three or four, and he'll say, don't call

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Speaker 1: me Sam anymore. My name is Peter. No, honey, we

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Speaker 1: gave you the name Sam. No, but I'm Peter. I

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Speaker 1: know I'm Peter. And I lived in the town of

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Speaker 1: X and I even remember who my parents were, and

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Speaker 1: I remember the house. It looks like this. And they'll say, well, well,

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Speaker 1: that's true or false, you know, and he'll say, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: it looks like this. And when you go in the house,

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Speaker 1: you turn left and you go down the hallway and

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Speaker 1: the third room on the right is my bedroom. And

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Speaker 1: so the parents do a little bit of checking and

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Speaker 1: they find out, you know, because he tells them the

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Speaker 1: town and where's a house like this? And this culture

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Speaker 1: is really open to this. They've heard these stories. So

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Speaker 1: other parents are used to helping you do this. And

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Speaker 1: they bring the little guy there, the newly made Peter,

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Speaker 1: and he takes you to the house and turns left

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Speaker 1: and goes down and there's his bedroom. He goes, well,

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Speaker 1: they've changed this all around, but my bed used to

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Speaker 1: be over there underneath the window. So he knows a

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Speaker 1: lot about this, and that's famous. Those are famous. Little

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Speaker 1: kids have a lot of details. Lesser examples, but they

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Speaker 1: can still be something that convinces some people. Of course,

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Speaker 1: would be cases of scars. Let's see, let's say Sam

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Speaker 1: slash Peter talks to the parents and they say, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he had this real strange birthmark on his left shoulder.

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Speaker 1: Oh you mean like this, And the guy pulls his

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Speaker 1: shirt down and they go, yeah, just like that. Where

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Speaker 1: did you get that? So birthmarks are deformities, a limp

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Speaker 1: and the same leg that the other boy had. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: these people can even tell you where the boys are buried.

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Speaker 1: But a deformity or a scar, that's one we're familiar

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Speaker 1: with us and Christian. But glossolalia or speaking in tongues.

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Speaker 1: This guy might start rattling off a different language and

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Speaker 1: he might talk in the dialect that Peter spoke in.

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Speaker 1: But remember his name, his given name is Sam, and

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Speaker 1: he starts talking to that language. So there's three of

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Speaker 1: them right there, and those are three of the best ones.

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Speaker 1: The main one is details, I can tell you where

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Speaker 1: I lived, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and deformities.

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Speaker 1: Speaking in tongues. I mean by that not your birth language,

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Speaker 1: but you're pretty good at it and you're only four

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Speaker 1: years old. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So that's a great list. And the other one that

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Speaker 2: we're going to get to is some of the so

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Speaker 2: called biblical evidence in favor of reincarnation. That's really interesting.

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Speaker 2: We'll take that one by one. Now we're going to

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Speaker 2: walk through some of the claims. Get your response to it.

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Speaker 2: But the way you frame this the first time I

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Speaker 2: read this chapter years ago was really eye opening to me.

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Speaker 1: Here's what you said.

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Speaker 2: You said, are there other hypotheses other than reincarnation that

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Speaker 2: can account for much of the same data? In other words,

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Speaker 2: if there are two hypotheses that explain the data equally

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Speaker 2: or at least sufficiently, how do many reincarnation experts choose

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Speaker 2: and how should we choose which option between those two

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Speaker 2: is the best?

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Speaker 1: Okay, let me use Ian Stevenson. Now people may have

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Speaker 1: missed this, but when I call them a psychiatrist, you

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Speaker 1: remember a psychiatrist as an MD. A psychologist is a

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Speaker 1: best a PhD. So he's a medical doctor University of Virginia.

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Speaker 1: He's really up on this stuff from medical viewpoint, and

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Speaker 1: he admits in his book. I cite the book several

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Speaker 1: times in that chapter, and he himself says, the best

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Speaker 1: two hypotheses are reincarnation and possession. And several times throughout

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Speaker 1: well the chapter where I cite him several times, you'll say,

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Speaker 1: and actually here possession and seems like it's pretty good.

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Speaker 1: And then he'll introduce he'll introduce another problem. He'll go, well,

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Speaker 1: there's a number of ways to explain this, but the

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Speaker 1: best to, well, we can just cut to the chase.

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Speaker 1: The best to are still reincarnation and possession. He says

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Speaker 1: it over and over again. Now you may have a

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Speaker 1: quote there. I've got one here. I can read it

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Speaker 1: if you want please. This is this is Ian Stevenson himself,

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Speaker 1: the lading leading scholar. And it's not because he's like

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Speaker 1: not a believer. He wrote the book twenty cases suggests

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Speaker 1: of reincarnation. Here he is. He says that the data

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Speaker 1: fall quote a long continuum in which the distinction between

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Speaker 1: reincarnation and possession becomes blurred close quote. Then he says

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Speaker 1: another statement, the data quote do not permit a firm

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Speaker 1: decision between the hypothesis of possession and reincarnation. Close quote.

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Speaker 1: Now it seems like he He definitely is saying these

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Speaker 1: are the two best, but it almost sounds at points

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Speaker 1: I got another one here. I can read you, but

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Speaker 1: it almost sounds like he thinks it's a toss up.

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Speaker 1: Now he'll tell you why he doesn't like. Well, this

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Speaker 1: is I don't know how far you want to go

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Speaker 1: to the shoan, but this is going to involve two

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Speaker 1: definitions of possession, and some Christians are going to be

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Speaker 1: very ill at ease with one of the two definitions.

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Speaker 1: But I'll just define them and you can go where

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Speaker 1: you want. Of course, one is called discarnate possession, and

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Speaker 1: I'll define that, and the other one is demon possession.

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Speaker 1: Now this is interesting. I can only guess what's in

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Speaker 1: this man's mind, this doctor, the medical doctor. But uh,

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Speaker 1: Stevenson makes the comment, of those two options, discarnate and demon,

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Speaker 1: I don't prefer the demon one, and I'm thinking, wow,

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Speaker 1: let me think through this. You already believe in the supernatural,

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Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I you know, I believe in reincarnation. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so you're already open to the supernatural, and you think

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Speaker 1: there is a supernatural slash spiritual realm. Yeah, you don't

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Speaker 1: like demon possession though, No, he could say, well, that's

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Speaker 1: a Christian view. Well, that's it's not true. You can

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Speaker 1: find demon possession in many world religions, I mean major ones.

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Speaker 1: But he could say yeah, and I'm just guessing her Sean,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but he could say, demon possession implies

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Speaker 1: a satan, and whether or not you believe in a satan,

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Speaker 1: there's probably a hell or a bad place to go.

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Speaker 1: And that's the my religion doesn't believe that. I think

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Speaker 1: he's rejecting it for a damnation slash judgment slash you know, okay,

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Speaker 1: and Christianity again is not the only one that believes that.

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Speaker 1: But he does say that's not my favorite. Now here's

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Speaker 1: the one that's going to cause some trouble. I think, okay,

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Speaker 1: just discard it. Possession d I s c A r

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Speaker 1: n A TE discarnate possession. Discarnate possession is the possession

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Speaker 1: of one individual by a second, previously deceased individual. But

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Speaker 1: they're both human beings and person a after death can enter.

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Speaker 1: Now again, what's what's the what you know, what definition

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Speaker 1: you're going to use. But if you believe in reincarnation,

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Speaker 1: you want him to enter another body between conception and birth.

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Speaker 1: If you like the what we might call more of

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Speaker 1: a Western Christian Jewish discardate view. Not too many people

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Speaker 1: talk about this, but it would be after that person's birth.

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Speaker 1: So it sounds a little bit like demon possession, but

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Speaker 1: it's possession by another individual. And you tell me whether

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Speaker 1: you want to go any further. But here's the only

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Speaker 1: thing I want to say about it. We'd say, no,

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Speaker 1: God doesn't let one a deceased spirit into the body

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Speaker 1: of another one. And I'd say, how do you know that?

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Speaker 1: And they'd say, well, Hebrews chapter nine says it's a

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Speaker 1: you know, it's a point that that man wants to die.

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Speaker 1: And after the judgment, Well, I think that's kind of

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Speaker 1: an odd verse. It might be your best shot. But

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Speaker 1: which judgment do you mean? And if it's the judgment

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Speaker 1: at the end of time, golly, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: time between fifty one a d And today. What's been

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Speaker 1: going on all those years? And you say, well, I

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Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe I can't give you a good verse.

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Speaker 1: I just don't think God would allow that. Okay, then

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Speaker 1: here's my comeback. Would Satan allow that? With Satan? When

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Speaker 1: Paul calls the God of this world, who has a

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Speaker 1: lot of power, who could do miracles, who can deceive

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Speaker 1: the very elect. Could he let the spirit of a

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Speaker 1: person who is his person that he controls? Could he

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Speaker 1: mess Christians or others up by having the spirit of

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Speaker 1: a dead person enter a living person. All I'm saying is,

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Speaker 1: I don't say it's got to be true. But there's

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Speaker 1: a number of cult experts all bricked in others, there's

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Speaker 1: a number of cult experts who believe you can't rule

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Speaker 1: it out. Biblically, there's no problem. So there's two kinds

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Speaker 1: human dead human spirit into a live human spirit or

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Speaker 1: a demon, and I think it's good to have two options.

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Speaker 1: Here's my personal view. I don't think we can rule

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Speaker 1: out this carrent possession, at least as the possible province

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Speaker 1: of Satan himself over with regard to one of his minions.

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Speaker 1: He lets all kinds of strange things happen, even blaspheming God.

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Speaker 1: This isn't even that bad. So what's wrong with that? Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I just don't like it. Well, maybe

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Speaker 1: you don't, But how do you dismiss it?

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Speaker 2: You know, my mind is run wild with theological questions

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Speaker 2: about discarnate possession. But let me hold that for a minute,

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Speaker 2: I want to make sure that our viewers are tracking

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Speaker 2: with a point. So Ian Stevenson gives at least, you

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Speaker 2: say it, at least five different lines of evidence for reincarnation.

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Speaker 2: One of the strongest pieces are the multiple cases of

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Speaker 2: children who have specific detail about names and places people live,

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Speaker 2: activity that they did, and they discovered that it lines

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Speaker 2: up and is likely true. You're convinced that at least

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Speaker 2: something supernatural is taken here. And I say that because

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Speaker 2: sometimes as Christians, when we see hear miracles in other

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Speaker 2: religions like Islam and in say Mormonism, we can either

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Speaker 2: explain and say no, it's false, miracle didn't happen, or

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Speaker 2: explain away by supernatural forces arguably demonic. But in this case,

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Speaker 2: in this line of reasoning, and you argue, there's enough

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Speaker 2: here to make you think at least something supernatural is taken.

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Speaker 2: Is that fair insofar as it goes most likely.

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Speaker 1: But in that chapter I give about twenty reputations. I

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Speaker 1: have three, well, I have at least two major ones.

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Speaker 1: If you want to count to two different kinds of possessions,

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Speaker 1: now I have three. I have a bunch of little

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Speaker 1: ones that just throw monkey wrenches into the reincarnation and

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Speaker 1: one of them, here's a couple.

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Speaker 2: Of them, hang on before before we come back, we're

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Speaker 2: going to come to those critiques. And that's fair. But

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Speaker 2: I want to draw out for people that say we

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Speaker 2: have a murder suspect and we actually let's say we

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Speaker 2: have a murder and we have two suspects that we're

401
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Speaker 2: curious about this murder. Both wear size two tennis shoes. Well,

402
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Speaker 2: then we can't say, oh, suspect A wear size ten shoes,

403
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Speaker 2: so this is evidence for suspect A, but not suspect B.

404
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:03,199
Speaker 2: It minim fits both. Well, if that's the case for

405
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Speaker 2: murder trout when it comes to reincarnation, you're saying, even

406
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Speaker 2: if this is supernatural, we're in come to your other

407
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 2: critiques of it to show that you're not convinced. But

408
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Speaker 2: even if it is, there's another suspect or two, namely

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Speaker 2: that wear size two tennis shoes that can also explain

410
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Speaker 2: the data. So it's not as forceful for reincarnation as

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Speaker 2: somebody you would think it is. Does that sum up

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Speaker 2: how you look at it?

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Speaker 1: That's fair because in logic, or in a lesser subject

414
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Speaker 1: than straightforward logic, but in a good persuasive reasoning. If

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Speaker 1: you can get in there and rip that up, you

416
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Speaker 1: might say, yeah, but what you're raising is the case

417
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Speaker 1: of special pleading. You're not asking all the people you're

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Speaker 1: going to size too. Here's the second guy with size two,

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Speaker 1: And I could say, well, I did some research and

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Speaker 1: some of the people in the group you're talking about,

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Speaker 1: there's ten of them. I mean, after a while, you're

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Speaker 1: really playing with that thesis. I also would raise questions

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Speaker 1: like natural hypotheses. Why can't we raise natural hypotheses like

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Speaker 1: this one? Well, these are cultures that almost always these

425
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Speaker 1: occurr in cultures where either reincarnation in general is allowed

426
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: or believe in, or they're Indian or maybe Buddhist cultures,

427
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 1: but especially Indian cultures. If the parent wants your child,

428
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: their child to be a star witness, why can't the

429
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 1: parent do some research, pass it on to the child,

430
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: get it into his mind. So he says, no, my

431
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 1: name's Peter. No, come on, we named you Sam. Now

432
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: the kid might spill the beans if he said, yeah,

433
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: but you told me to tell everybody my name's Peter.

434
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 1: The parents or somebody else could do research. See, there's

435
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 1: a lot of these families where they affirm this, they

436
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 1: can't give me exactly. In Christian circles, apologists aren't going

437
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 1: to buy this. Is what I'm going to say. Here

438
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: is a great evidence. But we pray for healing, and

439
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 1: we see a healing in church, and we see a

440
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: case maybe where this healing wasn't totally what we prayed for,

441
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 1: but it prayed in a few it was fulfilled in

442
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 1: a few areas, so we would and they were good areas.

443
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: So we'll put those in the back burner. But it's

444
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,439
Speaker 1: not a one to one relationship. Maybe the parents do

445
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 1: a little bit of research and teach the child why

446
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 1: that's trickery. No, it's them believing in their own religion,

447
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: and we do that as Christians. We do that as

448
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 1: Christian parents. I just think there's alternative reasons. So I

449
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: wouldn't say it has to be supernatural, but I would

450
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 1: say for many people, both views are going to involve supernatural.

451
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 2: Yes, that's really fair. So we're going to look at

452
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,919
Speaker 2: some of your critiques of re incarnation. There's some plausible

453
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 2: naturalistic explanations. But even if it is supernatural, it doesn't

454
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 2: uniquely point to exactly. Reincarnation still can be explained away

455
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,479
Speaker 2: with another phenomena. Now, before we get to some of

456
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,120
Speaker 2: your critique, one of the interesting things is how much

457
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 2: this comes up in studies of near death experiences. Now,

458
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 2: you were on I don't know three five months ago

459
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:20,199
Speaker 2: talking about how you've studied near death experiences since the seventies,

460
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 2: really about five decades, and as you well know, the

461
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 2: moment I talk about this, one of the biggest objections

462
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 2: that comes up is people talk about, well, it points

463
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 2: towards reincarnation. In fact, some studies suggests that NDEs tend

464
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 2: to increase belief in reincarnation. What's your response to that concern.

465
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: I think that that's true, and I think that it

466
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: involves some kind of overly easy reasoning. I don't think.

467
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: I don't I can't think of any Now I can

468
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: tell you we have a problem here with Peter, because

469
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: he can go to that house and point things out.

470
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: So we got something we got to deal with. I

471
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: don't think indies have anything like that. I can tell

472
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: you if you want me to say it. I don't

473
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 1: want to get you off the subject, but I can

474
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: tell you why. I don't don't trust that kind of

475
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: Indie data. So the kind of data, you'd have to say.

476
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: Here's the easy comment. Anybody who reads any of my

477
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: stuff on indies. The distinction I make, probably more than

478
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: any other one, is I only accept with very few exceptions.

479
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: There are a couple exceptions, but they don't come close

480
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: to reincarnation. But my argument is I only accept evidential

481
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:43,479
Speaker 1: cases that are this worldly evidence that is produced so

482
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: the person's hopefully there's dozens of cases. Now I measurably

483
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 1: got to put that in there, as far as we know,

484
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: a measurably flat heart, flat brain state, and they report

485
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: something in the physical world out there, so to speak,

486
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: and we've got data for it. The easiest way to

487
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: say it, let's say you're lecturing, I'll make it you

488
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: sea instead of me, and you pass out on the floor,

489
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: and the emergency people come in and they know what

490
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: time you went down because somebody looked at their watch.

491
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: There's a lot of students in the class. He went

492
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: down to about twelve oh three, okay, and they get

493
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: you situated at four oh five. But let's say there's

494
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: a car accident five miles away, ten miles away, and

495
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: you have a reason to be interested in that because

496
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: maybe your family member was in a car accident, so

497
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: you're drawn to that, and the the accident happened at

498
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 1: two oh three, and it got reconciled at three to three,

499
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 1: so all the data were in the space where you

500
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: had no brain or heart research. Now, to me, it's

501
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: this worldly stuff of that nature. But I don't I

502
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: don't trust, I don't cite. This goes back to the

503
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: beginning of my studies. I don't think there's much evidence

504
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: for these kind of things. Well, first I was here

505
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: and I saw the trees in the mountains. But then

506
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: I zipped up to heaven. And by the way, not

507
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: that many people go down tunnels, but a fair number,

508
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: not even fifty percent, but they go up there and

509
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 1: they go I met Jesus and he hugged me, and

510
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: he said, you're going to come back here someday, but

511
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: not now. And then you got the guy who says,

512
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: what saw the forest and the trees and went up

513
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,719
Speaker 1: to heaven and I saw Jesus, what are you? Well,

514
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: I'm an agnostic or I'm a Hindu or whatever. And

515
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: Jesus hugged me and said, I'm going to be here

516
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: in a little while or some years for now, but

517
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: not now. Whoa does that mean in the east teach

518
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: other religions or pluralism. Now the problem is I can

519
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: see that you know this event that happened in the

520
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: woods around the mountain, or the car accident, But how

521
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: do you know you saw Jesus? Well, I don't know.

522
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: Did he say it was Jesus? No, it was just

523
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: to be that was all a light being. That was

524
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: just the holiest thing I ever saw and infused me

525
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: and it was really impressive. He never told you that. No,

526
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: what if he did tell you his name of Jesus,

527
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: that make it true? What's your evidence for that? None?

528
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: How do you know you were even in heaven? Well

529
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 1: that's what it seemed like to me. Now see the

530
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 1: evidence is starting to get a little weaker. And I

531
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: don't make world view decisions based on quote unquote heavenly

532
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: data that people see. And they're the only witness, and

533
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: they're gonna come back and be the only interpreter. So

534
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: they're the only witness. They're the only interpreter. Everybody goes,

535
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: that's really cool. And if you really saw the car

536
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: accident five miles away, you must have met Jesus too.

537
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: I don't think that follows it all. So I don't think,

538
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 1: I don't think indes, I don't think the worldview specific

539
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: I think a Hindu could use it as evidence for

540
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: the afterlife, and a Christian could use it as the

541
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: evidence like intelligent design or fine tuning.

542
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 2: That a kind of natural revelation. And so, by the way,

543
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 2: just a side note, I've done I don't know, maybe

544
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 2: ten or twelve shows on this, and different NDE researchers

545
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 2: will give varying degrees of confidence in testimony that people

546
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 2: have during an NDE. But your position is you only

547
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 2: consider evidential when somebody claims to have some experience, then

548
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 2: we can come back and actually confirm it. That's where

549
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 2: it's evidentially significant, and so points towards things like life

550
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 2: after death, the existence of the soul, but not the

551
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 2: particulars of Christian theology or any other view of theology.

552
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 2: That's where you would land. Fair enough, go ahead. Did

553
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 2: you want to add something.

554
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: To that, well, I would add a second argument too.

555
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: A good friend of both of our, Steve Miller, on

556
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: your show. He probably I haven't seen your whole broadcast,

557
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: I've seen part of it, But did he describe his

558
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: little test he did where he studied one hundred indiease

559
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: and to end ind and he and this is from

560
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: a worldwide in the East site. And so you got Hindus,

561
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 1: you got Buddhists, you got Muslims, you got Christians. And

562
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 1: I'd have to go back and check his data. In fact,

563
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:17,919
Speaker 1: I think I did. I think this is the book

564
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: I did the forward for I should be a little

565
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: clearer on this, but I think what happened was that

566
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: the Buddhists never say they saw Buddha, the Hindus never

567
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: say they saw Krishna. Muslims never mentioned the my named Muhammad.

568
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: And they're going to say, well, that's because muhammadah is

569
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,439
Speaker 1: not a god anyway. So okay, I understand. But he's

570
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 1: and he's got twenty cases out of one hundred one

571
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 1: fifth where they said they saw Jesus. A number of

572
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: those people are not or not Christians. So non Christians say,

573
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,399
Speaker 1: Jesus talk to me, and the ones who are other

574
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: religions don't even say their founder talk to them. Is

575
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 1: a general rule. So he uses that. I don't think

576
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: Steve says that proves that all the other religions are on. No,

577
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: Steve doesn't go there, but he says it shoots the

578
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: definition that nds argue for other religions, or that it

579
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: leads people to the east. I think it leads people

580
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 1: to the east who are not not paying attention to

581
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: the evidence. Real strictly, that's fair too.

582
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, when I interviewed him, I don't remember the exact numbers,

583
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 2: but that sounds accurate that Jesus overwhelmingly appears across worldview,

584
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 2: across culture in the preliminary study that he did very carefully,

585
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,439
Speaker 2: which suggests that's representative of the vast majority of near

586
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:47,399
Speaker 2: death experiences, which would challenge if we allow people's testimonies

587
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 2: into the record of what they experience an ND, it

588
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 2: would nonetheless challenge the reincarnation notion. All right, fair enough, now,

589
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 2: you cided earlier, and I cut you off because I

590
00:35:58,080 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 2: was holding until we got there about how you have

591
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 2: some additional challenges just to reincarnation in itself. And here's

592
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,359
Speaker 2: kind of a way you asked the question, I'll put

593
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 2: out there and then you can run the direction you

594
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 2: want to. In your chapter, you say, how do we

595
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 2: bridge the gap between an individual's detailed knowledge pertaining to

596
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 2: a person who lived in the past and the assumption

597
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 2: that the two people are one and the same. Really

598
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 2: interesting point. Maybe expand on that point or just the

599
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,879
Speaker 2: general other critiques you have with the evidence for reincarnation.

600
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: Now I lost you on the first one, Sean. You said,

601
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 1: I get the people who who remember they claimed that

602
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: when my name was Peter and I grew up in

603
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 1: this house in my bedroom was a third Okay, I

604
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 1: get that, But what was the other side, what was

605
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: the other view?

606
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 2: Well, the quote says, how do we bridge the gap

607
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 2: between an individual's detailed knowledge pertraying pertaining to a person

608
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 2: that lived in the past and the assumption that the

609
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 2: two people are one and the same?

610
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 1: Okay, I think that was the phrase. How does in

611
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: the past come into this? That phrase in the past,

612
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: how are you using that?

613
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 2: Umm, I'm quoting you on this one. So rather than

614
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 2: getting lost in the quote itself, maybe just raise the

615
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:25,280
Speaker 2: critique that you have of us relying upon reincarnation in general.

616
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: Okay, So this little boy has what we would call

617
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 1: evidence for something by claiming to be Peter. Go into

618
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 1: the house, third bedroom on the right, Nosa's parents' name.

619
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: It can even take you to this, let's make it

620
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,720
Speaker 1: more complicated, even take you to the cemetery where Little

621
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: Peter was buried. Okay, there's some evidence, and compare that

622
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 1: to what an Indie yar who reports a car accident

623
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: ten ten miles away or were not even talking about

624
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 1: Indie years here.

625
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 2: Uh, you can bring it in if you want to.

626
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 2: We're talking about your other problems and challenges with the

627
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 2: evidence for re incarnation.

628
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah, okay. On the car accident, the best

629
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: kind of case would be if you didn't have any

630
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: brain or heart measurable brain or heart waves during that point,

631
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: and there's a police report on the accident, and nobody

632
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 1: in your vicinity could have been ten miles away at

633
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: that same time watching the accident. And of course the

634
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: closer you report it. If you report this within an

635
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 1: hour of waking up or ten minutes, there are some

636
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 1: a lot of close cases like that. You're not going

637
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 1: to have been scanning the newspapers and reading about car accidents.

638
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: But if the thing happens in between that time. The

639
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 1: problem I have with the little boy is multifaceted. I

640
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,280
Speaker 1: think the best critique is this, I will take either

641
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:58,280
Speaker 1: discarnate possession or demon possession. And even Ian Stevenson himself

642
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 1: says these are almost toss ups. I don't like. I'm

643
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 1: talking for Stevenson. Now, I don't like demon possession, but

644
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: discarnate is a toughie, and I think it's a good

645
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 1: rival position. So, by the way, another reincarnation is Diortega

646
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 1: says demon possession is the best hypothesis and he believes

647
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: in reincarnation. So and that's on the same page there

648
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: in the book. You can look it up. And still

649
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 1: another one Maharaj, Now this would be what you're asking for,

650
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 1: because a lesser comeback. He's he's Indian and he used

651
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: to be an Indian guru and he was converted. In fact,

652
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 1: his book came under a couple of titles, but the

653
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 1: first one was an intriguing title. It's called The Death

654
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: of a Guru. And that's when he became a Christian.

655
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: And he says, I'll tell you what. I'll read his statement.

656
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: Just books. My book's opened, Dean Stevenson, and it's right there.

657
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: Maharaj says this. He says he describes his the experience

658
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: as this. This is when he was a budding young guru. Quote.

659
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: My world was filled with spirits and gods and occult powers,

660
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 1: and my obligation from childhood was to give each its

661
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 1: due end quote. Now that's a good argument to me

662
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 1: from a Hindu for demon possession, because they believe in

663
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 1: demon possession too. See, it's not just a Christian thing

664
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: or a Jewish thing, it's he believes that. And he

665
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: said we were into the cult, and you know his

666
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 1: other things. Here he says, my obligation for childhood was

667
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: for a cult and spirits and God, small g I'm

668
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: going to give my due to all these things. So

669
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 1: if you say, all right, these folks are largely Indians

670
00:40:54,160 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 1: or those cultures. Yeah, and you're raised and you were

671
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: immersed in the occult, or at least very much into it,

672
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 1: unfamiliar with the spirits and demons and so on, I

673
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 1: think that makes demon possession a much likelier thesis and

674
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 1: that culture. Because I don't object to discarnate possession. I

675
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: would say, just a little person gets I'll give you

676
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: some other ones. But here's here's the the combat I

677
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: would make, and that is if Stevenson of all guys

678
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 1: says these things are one two, I mean, I don't

679
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 1: even know who's one and who's two. Sometimes it's sometimes

680
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 1: it's uh. I think it's possession sometimes it might be discarnate,

681
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,439
Speaker 1: I mean reincarnation or discarnate. I think we don't even

682
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,799
Speaker 1: have to go any further. I think, if the if

683
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 1: these are the options two kinds of possession, if the

684
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: person in your audience says, now I don't do that

685
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: discarnate stuff, let me do demon. Okay, fine, you've got

686
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: demon versus reincarnation. I think we've got demon and discard,

687
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: aren't it versus reincredation? But now here's my question. All right,

688
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 1: you're Hindu, yep, and you believe these things yep. And

689
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 1: you think some kind of possession is a good thesis yep.

690
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 1: Your main man got your main guy does. And here's

691
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 1: another guy who thinks it's mostly demon possession is better yep.

692
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:18,760
Speaker 1: Seems to me like this is a battle for world views.

693
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: And now you know where I'm going to go. What

694
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:24,359
Speaker 1: is your data for Hindu hindu Is? And I'll match

695
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: you one for one. Good arguments for Christianity? Okay, I

696
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 1: think Christianity's got the best arguments by far. I think,

697
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: for example, just give you one example. This is why

698
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: critics think the Gospel of John is late at plus

699
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 1: sixty five, and they don't complain about Buddha at plus

700
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,359
Speaker 1: six hundred. They're just not They're just not tough on

701
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 1: the world religions, but they're tough on Christianity. Why even

702
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 1: they recognize we have really good data. So if you

703
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 1: want to go just at one conclusion alone, one type

704
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: of possession compared to prepared to rec nation, I'm going

705
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: to say, if my worldviews got the best data and

706
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 1: you have very little data that we think would be

707
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 1: recognized empirically or otherwise, I think case dismissed. I think

708
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 1: possession wins. And if you've got two cases of reincarnation

709
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 1: of possession, I think we really win. Now, let me

710
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 1: give you some sub arguments that I think are really helpful. Here.

711
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:28,439
Speaker 1: Ian Stevenson does this, and he goes, yeah, a couple

712
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 1: of places. He says, I think possession and I gonna

713
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: watch clipping my words around here. I think possession and

714
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 1: reincarnation are really really tight. And then you go. He goes,

715
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 1: but I'll give you. I'll talk to you about two

716
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 1: cases and I go, well, please do. And he gives

717
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 1: two cases where reincarnation does not work but possession does,

718
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: and in both cases via his definition that we that

719
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 1: we handled at the outset here. The problem is this

720
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 1: child wasn't infested by a renegade spirit in between concession,

721
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 1: conception and birth the person whose spirit Peter. If we

722
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:23,280
Speaker 1: went back to the Indian case, the one saint Peter,

723
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: Peter died when the little boy was four and now

724
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,399
Speaker 1: he's eight. Now Sam is eight. But see if Peter

725
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 1: died when he's four, and Sam can say, well, I

726
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: know where he lived and I know where his bedroom

727
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:42,359
Speaker 1: was in Da Da Da Da Da Da, it's not

728
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: it's not reincarnation because the kid was alive and died

729
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: before the second one started claiming this. It doesn't even

730
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 1: even Stevenson says, here, here's a couple of things that

731
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 1: you know, just look like that's one. Here's a couple others.

732
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:05,760
Speaker 1: What about the marks on the shoulder or similar wounds.

733
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 1: That's kind of intriguing.

734
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 2: Okay, hold that thought for a second. I'm gonna come

735
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 2: back to like the birthmarks and the xeno glossy. Let

736
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 2: me jump in and clarify for people, this is really important.

737
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 2: So certain evidence is put forward for reincarnation, and what

738
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 2: you're saying is minimally that same evidence can be explained

739
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:29,919
Speaker 2: within a Christian worldview. We're not inventing an explanation either

740
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 2: demon possession, oppression, deincarnation. We have the resources to account

741
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 2: for that. But the flip side is we have additional

742
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 2: evidence for resurrection and for christian as a whole that

743
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 2: cannot be explained in the way reincarnation can be explained

744
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 2: on the other side. So if we start with the

745
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 2: reincarnation data, that alone is not going to solve it.

746
00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 2: It's going to be interpreted somewhat by somebody's worldview. So

747
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 2: now we have to have to step back and look

748
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 2: at the scientific, philosophical, historical evidence as a whole for

749
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 2: a particular worldview. And that's where you say, let's have

750
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 2: that conversation. We have the additional evidence for Christianity that

751
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 2: other faiths don't. Now is that a fair summary.

752
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,360
Speaker 1: Let me give you a good sports illustration of it. Ken.

753
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 1: What if we say the best two quarterbacks in the

754
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 1: NFL are A and B. They're the best quarterbacks. The

755
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: only problem is A also has the best team around him.

756
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 1: This guy that got the best defense in the league,

757
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: that got a great offense. What does B have? Well,

758
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 1: I hate to say this, he's kind of tied for

759
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 1: the best quarterback, but they've got a lousy team. That's

760
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 1: kind of what we're saying. I'm not trying to call

761
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 1: any religion lousy, but I'm saying, whoa wa who. Even

762
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: the best quarterback needs good wide receivers, needs a great

763
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 1: blocking line. We both know examples where it's a great

764
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 1: quarterback but the line can't keep anybody out. Guys running

765
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:04,240
Speaker 1: the whole time, or you want a good running running

766
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 1: back because a quarterback wants a break. But if the

767
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: other team doesn't have anybody in any of those possessions,

768
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: the quarterback gets beat up all the time, hurt all

769
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 1: the time. In other words, there's there's two teams of players.

770
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 1: A star pitcher needs people in other positions around the field.

771
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: So I think it's important if Christianity has star players

772
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 1: and others, and they say, well, you're just being prejudiced

773
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:31,359
Speaker 1: for Christians because we don't always all right, just stop

774
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 1: right there. If you're gonna say I can't play that

775
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 1: game with you, that's an issue. If you've got a

776
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 1: good quarterback but no team, where's this conversation going. If

777
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 1: you've got a great pitcher throws the ball well over

778
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 1: one hundred miles an hour but has no great team

779
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 1: and your catcher's always passing the ball. What's going on?

780
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 1: So I think it's really important if it comes right

781
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,959
Speaker 1: down to it. And remember the key here is Stevenson.

782
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,879
Speaker 1: It's basically a draw or close to a draw, all right.

783
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 1: When it's a draw from the top reincarnation, guys, you've

784
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 1: gotta ask what is teams like to use those illstrations.

785
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:09,720
Speaker 2: You can always use sports illstrations in the carry.

786
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:10,279
Speaker 1: I love it.

787
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 2: That helps good stuff. I'm gonna come back to some

788
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 2: of your critique of a xenoglossy which you mentioned earlier

789
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 2: and the birthmarks, but first let's pause from it. I

790
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 2: know at this point some people are probably thinking about

791
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 2: the biblical evidence that's sometimes given. So for example, in

792
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 2: Matthew seventeen, verses ten through thirteen, the disciples ask Jesus

793
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 2: the prophecy that Elijah must come before the Messiah, and

794
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 2: Jesus identifies the Elijah as John the Baptist, and of

795
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 2: course the other early Gospels make that connection as well.

796
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 2: Herod also responds to the fame of Jesus by saying,

797
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 2: this is John the Baptist. He has been raised from

798
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 2: the dead. That is why these miraculous powers are at

799
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 2: work with him? Is this reincarnation in the biblical text?

800
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: And I would say absolutely not for this reason. Not

801
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 1: necessarily because I can say, oh, this Greek word means

802
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:10,800
Speaker 1: not the same, but doing similar things. I'm not I

803
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 1: can't always solve the you know, first of all, I'm

804
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:17,280
Speaker 1: not primarily a language scholar. I told my PhD. SuDS

805
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 1: I got a minor in Greek and that makes me dangerous.

806
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:23,839
Speaker 1: That doesn't make me a Greek scholar. So I can't

807
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 1: point to a certain thing here, like a word. But

808
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 1: I can tell you this. I want to know whether

809
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:35,800
Speaker 1: Jesus is saying they're similar or they're the same, which

810
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: one because in logic we know similarity does not prove sameness.

811
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 1: Two things can be similar, it doesn't. You can think

812
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 1: of a bunch of ludicrous examples. Two quarterbacks. I've just

813
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: heard of two quarterbacks this last week, comparing two of

814
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 1: the top teams going to nationals. Their statistics are almost identical,

815
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: but they're not the same guy. So what is Jesus saying.

816
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 1: He's saying this guy's the reincarnation of him. I don't

817
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 1: think that's justified anywhere in scripture. I don't think you

818
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 1: can prove the point. And that's just that's one case.

819
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 1: If that's your best case, I don't mean yours, but

820
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 1: that's the person's best case. I think there's got to

821
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,320
Speaker 1: be a closer. The grit the bridge has got to

822
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 1: be a little more solid than yeah, this is Elijah.

823
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:26,240
Speaker 1: What do you mean? We say that all the time,

824
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 1: but we don't mean you're literally the other pitcher on

825
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 1: the team that at your high school. This guy was

826
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: almost as famous. This guy was as famous then as

827
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 1: you are now. It's an analogy. It's not a one

828
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: to one. Let's put this way. It comes on several

829
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:48,800
Speaker 1: prob levels. There's no to me, no background philosophical reasons

830
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 1: or theological reasons that would make the Bible a book

831
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:56,360
Speaker 1: that teaches reincarnation. And if we have to go to

832
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:59,919
Speaker 1: two or three cases that could be similarity and not proof.

833
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: I'm not walking on that bridge if that if that

834
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 1: thing is going over you know, a big valley, I'm

835
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 1: not working on the bridge because if you told me no, no, no,

836
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 1: don't go out there, I only meant they were similar

837
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 1: and yeah, now I'm dead. So it's just not a

838
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 1: good similarity arguments not the same as sameness. Arguments, and

839
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: you'd have to tell me that James, that Jesus meant

840
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 1: they're the same people.

841
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 2: This is you're teaching us, like a basic hermeneutical principle,

842
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:31,839
Speaker 2: If you have a contested passage, you look at it

843
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 2: in light of the whole. And clearly, the Gospel of Matthew,

844
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:40,720
Speaker 2: arguably the most Jewish of the Gospels, was pulling from

845
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 2: who God is and the Old Testament scriptures and death

846
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:50,320
Speaker 2: and judgment. And so we're gonna interpret this contested passage

847
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:56,360
Speaker 2: that through the lens of what else Matthew and Judaism taught. Now,

848
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:00,120
Speaker 2: if we had independent, reasonably reincarnation was true, then this

849
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 2: passage we can maybe interpret in light of it, but

850
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 2: we don't. So that's a really good hermonucule approach. The

851
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 2: other thing I throw in there is when they ask

852
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 2: the disciples, you know the prophecy that Elijah must come

853
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 2: before the Messiah. Are they saying Elijah will come back

854
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 2: from the dead or an Elijah type figure will analogy?

855
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:23,719
Speaker 2: And it's an analogy. Now, of course, Elijah shows up

856
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 2: with Moses in Mark nine and I think Luke nine

857
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 2: and the transfiguration, But that's a different point. That's being

858
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 2: asked here, it's an analogy, not saying he'll come. So

859
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 2: that's where reincarnation is reading so much into this passage

860
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 2: that's obviously not there. So let me ask you this, Gary,

861
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 2: Is there a way to make reincarnation compatible with Christianity

862
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:51,840
Speaker 2: or are they completely incompatible belief systems?

863
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:54,840
Speaker 1: Let me ask a question. We don't have much for

864
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:57,880
Speaker 1: reincarnation in the Bible. We have a couple passages that

865
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 1: are odd passages. But you might have mentioned one. It's

866
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 1: not a strong contradiction, and you weren't using it that way.

867
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 1: But I'm saying it's a mild contradiction. And it's this

868
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:12,799
Speaker 1: and Mark nine where Jesus with the sermon I mean

869
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 1: the transfiguration, and these two Old Testament saints appear before Jesus.

870
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 1: Jesus doesn't say, what's the problem here? This is Elijah, okay,

871
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:30,800
Speaker 1: who is Jesus's cousin John the Baptist. They're distinct people.

872
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 1: Jesus treats them distinctly, and Jesus doesn't say, oh, this

873
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:38,320
Speaker 1: is the guy that was dead where his physical figure

874
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 1: is my seemingly cousin, but he's not really my cousin.

875
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 1: I mean Elijah's already there, and Jesus doesn't say, See,

876
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 1: I told you he'd come before John the Baptist. See,

877
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 1: if we wanted to, we could say this, Wow, darn,

878
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 1: Elijah did come before Jesus. Have you ever read Mark nine?

879
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 1: He came on the mountain. He came before Jesus. Did

880
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 1: you know? Before death and resurrection? But you're right. The

881
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,799
Speaker 1: main problem is there's not a body of data that

882
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 1: make reincarnation true. So to jump into a view that

883
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 1: is so incredible and deep with all kinds of things

884
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 1: where Peter can go to his home and go down

885
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:21,879
Speaker 1: the hallway and turn to the right, I mean John

886
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 1: doesn't talk like that of anybody. Jesus doesn't talk like

887
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 1: that of anybody. You think we'd find a lot of

888
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:33,840
Speaker 1: verses like that. So I'm gonna go with assimilation, not sameness.

889
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:37,399
Speaker 1: To me, you said Hermaeneutics, and you're right. It's also

890
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 1: a logical principle. In this case. Sameness does not prove identity.

891
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Similarity does not prove identity. So is.

892
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:53,960
Speaker 2: Reincarnation compatible with Christianity or is it incompatible as a

893
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 2: belief system?

894
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:57,880
Speaker 1: I think it's incompatible, and I can give you a

895
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 1: lot of reasons for it. Early in the chapter and

896
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:04,759
Speaker 1: throughout I do other things like this. These are two

897
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 1: completing world views. It's a largely it's an Eastern view

898
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 1: and a Western view. And what what's at stake? Okay,

899
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 1: the Eastern view is usually not always it's a monism, uh.

900
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 1: And it's an idealism. Now, a lot of some Christians,

901
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 1: some well known Christian theologians, are idealists. Jonathan Edwards is

902
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 1: often called an idealistic philosopher. But for the most part,

903
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 1: idealism is somebody who's totally or almost everybody there is

904
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 1: an idealist in Eastern you know, in some sense philosophical idealism,

905
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 1: and they're doing their monas. No, that's a Judeo Christian view.

906
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:51,359
Speaker 1: They believe in pluralism, they believe in oh totally. So

907
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:57,240
Speaker 1: it's a a culture behind them that is totally different.

908
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 1: Your question was, can reincarnation be interpreted with if I

909
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 1: understand it right, could it be interpreted within Christianity as

910
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 1: a part of And I'd say, yeah, their underlying philosophies

911
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 1: are totally different. What about polytheism versus monotheism. That's a

912
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 1: huge one. I just don't see how how reincarnation fits

913
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 1: into a Western Biblical either Judaism or Christianity monotheistic religion.

914
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 1: The two views I Hinduism and Christianity about as posed

915
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:37,320
Speaker 1: as you could be as far as having totally different perspectives.

916
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:39,439
Speaker 2: And that's helpful when we step back again on who

917
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:43,359
Speaker 2: God is, what God is like, what's wrong with the

918
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:46,960
Speaker 2: world and how we fix it, the nature of what

919
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:51,360
Speaker 2: it means to be human, what the after life is like.

920
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:55,320
Speaker 2: I mean, on the big boulders that define a faith,

921
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 2: they're distinctly different. So somebody would have to really force

922
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:01,919
Speaker 2: a puzzle piece into a puzzle that doesn't fit.

923
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:06,480
Speaker 1: That's yeah, that's your that's your counter argument to my

924
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 1: not counter But that's your I use baseball and football

925
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:12,399
Speaker 1: there and use puzzle piece. I think they're both right

926
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 1: because neither one. The map with so many thousand pieces,

927
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 1: and the baseball game or the football game, they have

928
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 1: to fit together. You've got to be a team, and

929
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 1: in your case, you've got to be a puzzle. If

930
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:30,439
Speaker 1: the piece doesn't fit the puzzle and the players don't

931
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 1: fit the team, well, I'm playing soccer, that's what I

932
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:35,600
Speaker 1: call football. Yeah, it's not going to fit our picture.

933
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 1: If the if the big pictures aren't that the philosophical

934
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 1: overview is going to be a huge issue to me.

935
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:45,919
Speaker 1: So I don't have any reason. I don't have any

936
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 1: reason to affirm reincarnation. I don't think it's taught in scripture.

937
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 1: I think there's good alternatives by Stevenson and others, And

938
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 1: like I said, the other guy says, the other reincarnation says,

939
00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:00,680
Speaker 1: demon possession is a better option better. So now you're

940
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 1: going to criticize me. Okay, I'm gonna go to my

941
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 1: worldview and don't forget I'm open to discarnate possession, which

942
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:09,840
Speaker 1: Stevenson says is the better of the two views. And

943
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:13,040
Speaker 1: you think that's a real rival to reincarnation. Okay, well

944
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 1: my thesis I've got, you know, I got two running

945
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 1: backs and you've got one. Or I've got two big

946
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 1: home run hitters and you've got one. I'm not saying

947
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:23,440
Speaker 1: I'm gonna win. I'm just saying odds are with me.

948
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 2: So two more pieces of evidence that are often given

949
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:31,040
Speaker 2: for reincarnation. I'll get your take on this one is

950
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 2: xeno glossy, where people seemingly have the supernatural ability to

951
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 2: speak another language, and the way This is often interpreted

952
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 2: with the reincarnation. Is it's the language that their former

953
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 2: self or identity spoke and is being transformed into them

954
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:52,440
Speaker 2: them evidence that it's the same soul now in a

955
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 2: new body. What would your response to that be.

956
00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 1: Just a xeno glossy? Alum, Yeah, okay, well on either

957
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 1: see to me. Okay, I'm really prejudiced. You're getting me

958
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 1: going here because I'm going, hey, Sean, if I've got

959
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 1: discarnate and demon possession, I've got some other issues like

960
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 1: logic and these other things I mentioned. I'm really kind

961
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:14,800
Speaker 1: of getting a type view here, and I see your

962
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 1: view as being kind of loose, you know, the Eastern

963
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 1: view is like this, and you're going, what about a

964
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 1: xeno glossy? I'm going, Sean, time out, think about it.

965
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:27,520
Speaker 1: If this is discarnate possession, it's another person. If it's

966
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:33,040
Speaker 1: demon possession, it's the demons. Could speak a hundred languages.

967
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 1: But on my view, I'm surprised someone's not speaking messages

968
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:44,240
Speaker 1: out you know, other languages. Don't forget when you do

969
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 1: the when you do spiritual gifts, whatever you I mean.

970
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 1: I'm open to anything biblically spiritual gifts, but there are

971
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 1: cases in scripture. For an instance, the little girl who

972
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:02,320
Speaker 1: followed Paul and and she was wanted to they cast

973
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:04,680
Speaker 1: the demon out of her, but she was prophesying and

974
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:08,960
Speaker 1: making all kinds of things when you can do supernatural things.

975
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 1: They didn't go, whoa, you're one of us, you're doing

976
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:15,200
Speaker 1: the supernatural. They go, get out of here. That supernatural

977
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 1: is not from us, and they cast the demon out

978
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 1: of her. Now is it odd that our thesis demon

979
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:24,000
Speaker 1: is one of two major counter theories and they didn't

980
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:30,520
Speaker 1: accept her what she manifested? True? Yeah? Do you have evidence? Yeah?

981
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 1: Is it of us? No, be gone Satan? You know so.

982
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 1: I just think that's in both this carnate and possessive cases.

983
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 1: I'm surprised if there's not other languages.

984
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:49,920
Speaker 2: Oh wow, that's interesting here you say there's not, And

985
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 2: of course I've done Separate shows a number with Richard

986
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:59,040
Speaker 2: Gallagher and people on demonic possession and oppression, and a

987
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 2: common phenomena is speaking in other languages, which shows something

988
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:08,840
Speaker 2: supernatural is going on. Yes, which if we're saying that

989
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:12,840
Speaker 2: this person's not really reincarnated from their spirit in a

990
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:17,600
Speaker 2: different body, but possession or oppression or deincarnation this is

991
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:21,280
Speaker 2: exactly what we would expect. It fits with both of those,

992
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 2: so that that's helpful, That makes sense. What about the

993
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:29,400
Speaker 2: birthmarks and deformities that somebody seems to have that they

994
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:31,640
Speaker 2: had in their previous life as well, which seems to

995
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 2: show some kind of continuity between the two lives.

996
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:37,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me let me give you an actual I

997
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:40,120
Speaker 1: think objection that's good. But let me also give a

998
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 1: natural objection that I think is good. I'll give you

999
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:51,800
Speaker 1: each example. All right, birthmarks, similar marks, deformities. I think

1000
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 1: that here, here's a really good comeback. We hear that psychics.

1001
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:02,280
Speaker 1: Psychics frequently do really interesting things. And one of the

1002
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:06,439
Speaker 1: things that pop up once in a while are the

1003
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:10,560
Speaker 1: marks and the poems and where people produce blood and

1004
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:14,600
Speaker 1: they say, see, I've been blessed. God's whatever with me.

1005
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:17,480
Speaker 1: He's very happy with me. I'm showing the same wounds

1006
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 1: as Jesus does. And my one time of year, whatever

1007
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:24,800
Speaker 1: the story is, one time a year at Easter, I start,

1008
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:27,640
Speaker 1: I start bleeding in the palms in my hand. First

1009
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 1: of all, I got a little bit of a side one.

1010
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:33,880
Speaker 1: Everybody today medical and theological think that the nails would here,

1011
01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:37,640
Speaker 1: so they're bleeding, they're bleeding in the wrong place. They're

1012
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:40,360
Speaker 1: not bleeding, They're not bleeding in the right place. But

1013
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:43,760
Speaker 1: give it to him. Be that as it may. Here's

1014
01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:49,640
Speaker 1: the comeback. So are you arguing for reincarnation here? I'm

1015
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:55,760
Speaker 1: just saying people show similar marks. Oh ah, so you're Jesus. Right. No,

1016
01:02:55,880 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 1: I didn't say that. But you've got the marks of

1017
01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 1: Jesus on you, the same ones Jesus had, right, Yeah,

1018
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:05,320
Speaker 1: are you Jesus? Now, I'm a follower of Jesus, but

1019
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 1: you're not Jesus. No, And I thought this discussion was hilarious.

1020
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:13,680
Speaker 1: You're not Jesus, but you manifest his wounds. I guess

1021
01:03:13,720 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 1: that means that not all wounds are evidential manifestations of

1022
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:21,200
Speaker 1: the person themselves. If you can have a mark, but

1023
01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:23,520
Speaker 1: I can think of a couple of natural theses. If

1024
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:27,040
Speaker 1: parents are in on this, and I don't mean necessarily

1025
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:30,320
Speaker 1: nastily in on it, but the way Christians manipulate things

1026
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:34,120
Speaker 1: sometimes to make it look like their version of Christianity

1027
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:37,439
Speaker 1: is more true or more than yours. Or I've got

1028
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:39,520
Speaker 1: this gift or I've got you know, I'm not picking

1029
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:42,480
Speaker 1: on anybody. I believe sign gifts are here, etcetera. But

1030
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 1: how could what if the parents, you know how in

1031
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:53,480
Speaker 1: that culture fathers choose brides for their daughters. Okay, what

1032
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:58,919
Speaker 1: if the parent works with the other parent. Sam's parent

1033
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:01,640
Speaker 1: works with Peter's all right, to bring him over to

1034
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:04,280
Speaker 1: Peter's house. And the kid we've told him it's the

1035
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:06,640
Speaker 1: bedroom is the one of the room on the right,

1036
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:09,440
Speaker 1: last room on the right. Okay, So I got this

1037
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:11,840
Speaker 1: kid down. He passes all the tests and everything else,

1038
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:15,600
Speaker 1: he goes, he goes in there, but his parents, oh, well,

1039
01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:17,880
Speaker 1: you got to you got to mark here. What if

1040
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:19,959
Speaker 1: one of the marks is real but the other mark

1041
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:22,560
Speaker 1: is kind of imagine but the parents make it look

1042
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:26,640
Speaker 1: up that it's it's contrived. What if the wounds are contrived?

1043
01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:30,040
Speaker 1: But but I like I like the one about the

1044
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:33,080
Speaker 1: the signs of the cross. The people bleeding have signs

1045
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:36,480
Speaker 1: of the Cross. Nobody says they're Jesus, they're you know,

1046
01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:41,920
Speaker 1: so signs don't Again, here's the phrase, uh, similarities do

1047
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:47,280
Speaker 1: not produce sameness. And even if it were true, even

1048
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:49,640
Speaker 1: if it were true, I think the marks on the

1049
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:52,800
Speaker 1: body are one of the least of the evidences. Notice

1050
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:55,520
Speaker 1: I have it down at the end I don't because

1051
01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:58,200
Speaker 1: I don't want to answer it. It's because I almost

1052
01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:00,000
Speaker 1: think it's not a really good objection. But I'm gonna

1053
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:02,400
Speaker 1: put it any there anyway because they say it's good.

1054
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:05,240
Speaker 1: I just don't find it as an evidence or anything.

1055
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:07,400
Speaker 2: I think that have to be pretty clear, like the

1056
01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 2: actual marks on Jesus that he shows Thomas and tells

1057
01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:16,000
Speaker 2: him distinctly, rather than vague similarities that could have a

1058
01:05:16,120 --> 01:05:20,479
Speaker 2: natural explanation or in some cases even a supernatural one

1059
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:24,760
Speaker 2: apart from reincarnation isn't really really compelling.

1060
01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:28,480
Speaker 1: So let me ask you something. We teach both sides

1061
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 1: of the country at two well known Christian schools in

1062
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:36,120
Speaker 1: our traditions, and we both are not one denomination where

1063
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:39,920
Speaker 1: you know everybody and from all over the world. What

1064
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:46,200
Speaker 1: would how good would that similarity have to be? How?

1065
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:50,160
Speaker 1: In some cases, yeah, the closest might be. You know,

1066
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:52,240
Speaker 1: maybe I'm not telling you that I have a mark

1067
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:57,000
Speaker 1: on my shoulder like you did, but I also have

1068
01:05:57,080 --> 01:05:58,960
Speaker 1: one of those on my left knee and one of

1069
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:01,360
Speaker 1: them on the top of my I just have these

1070
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:03,640
Speaker 1: kind of mark What I mean is to me, they're

1071
01:06:03,720 --> 01:06:06,560
Speaker 1: just natural theses all over the place. Now, if you

1072
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:09,760
Speaker 1: have a really good one, like he's I don't know

1073
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:11,880
Speaker 1: what a really good one would be. But here's my

1074
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:15,520
Speaker 1: other question from the greater picture that we've been developing. Here,

1075
01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:21,760
Speaker 1: can demons make marks on bodies and duplicate? And could

1076
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:24,640
Speaker 1: a discardate personality? I don't know. I'm not as sure

1077
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:27,840
Speaker 1: about the discarnate personality, but I'm sure demons can do that.

1078
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:30,840
Speaker 1: Demons do miracles, right, and Jesus said they would deceive

1079
01:06:30,880 --> 01:06:33,760
Speaker 1: the very elect if they could, they would try to

1080
01:06:33,800 --> 01:06:35,840
Speaker 1: deceive the elect. Do you think they could try to

1081
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:40,240
Speaker 1: put a mark on your shoulder? I just I just

1082
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:43,720
Speaker 1: think if you get demon in here and Stevenson goes

1083
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:48,200
Speaker 1: fifty to fifty and our Taga goes no, it's that's

1084
01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:50,920
Speaker 1: just better. You've let the you let the cat out

1085
01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:53,160
Speaker 1: of the bag on this one, because there's no stop

1086
01:06:53,160 --> 01:06:58,840
Speaker 1: in it. You've got a supernatural person inside you, uh,

1087
01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:03,040
Speaker 1: you know, demon and again the god of this world.

1088
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:07,240
Speaker 1: You know, Jesus said watch out for the miracles, book

1089
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:11,360
Speaker 1: a revelation, watch out for the miracles. I just think

1090
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:13,480
Speaker 1: that I think it could be about anything. That's why

1091
01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:15,320
Speaker 1: I don't think the marks are very strong. I think

1092
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:18,840
Speaker 1: on the Christian world view, the marks are could be

1093
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:23,240
Speaker 1: duplicated a lot easier if it's a demon.

1094
01:07:23,720 --> 01:07:27,040
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know the line about how specific

1095
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:28,520
Speaker 2: a mark would have to be. This is kind of

1096
01:07:28,560 --> 01:07:30,920
Speaker 2: the question of, like the design filter, how do we

1097
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:34,400
Speaker 2: recognize when design is there? And of course if it's

1098
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:38,480
Speaker 2: like a tattoo that matches with a level of specificity,

1099
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:42,840
Speaker 2: wouldn't necessarily prove supernatural if somebody was aware of that

1100
01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:46,240
Speaker 2: mark on somebody else before, like, it doesn't really rule

1101
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:51,120
Speaker 2: out the supernatural, maybe suggests it, but even then demons

1102
01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:53,840
Speaker 2: could do that. And by the way, if somebody's watched

1103
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:56,480
Speaker 2: this they don't believe in demons or reincarnation, they're going

1104
01:07:56,560 --> 01:07:58,360
Speaker 2: to think that two of us are crazy, And that's

1105
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:00,960
Speaker 2: completely fine. All we're trying to show is the evidence

1106
01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:06,000
Speaker 2: for reincarnation has another explanation that can account for the data,

1107
01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:11,400
Speaker 2: namely demon possession or oppression. So this uniquely doesn't count

1108
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:14,760
Speaker 2: as evidence for the supernatural. And for you and I

1109
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:17,600
Speaker 2: who believe in demons and believe there are liars, like

1110
01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:21,880
Speaker 2: Jesus says in the Gospel of John chapter eight, specifically,

1111
01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:26,640
Speaker 2: Satan is a liar. Well, if resurrection is as central

1112
01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:29,280
Speaker 2: to the Christian faith, as you and I have been arguing,

1113
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:32,639
Speaker 2: and the chief sign that Jesus gave that the Son

1114
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:34,880
Speaker 2: a Man would be in the belly of Jonah for

1115
01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:38,360
Speaker 2: three days, then there would be incentive for demons to

1116
01:08:38,680 --> 01:08:44,320
Speaker 2: lie about this and convince people who've had supernatural experiences

1117
01:08:44,320 --> 01:08:47,800
Speaker 2: to go to the direction of reincarnation rather than resurrection.

1118
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:51,040
Speaker 2: So my point is that I just think it fits

1119
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:55,200
Speaker 2: now before we wrap up anything else that I didn't

1120
01:08:55,240 --> 01:08:58,800
Speaker 2: ask you about a critique of reincarnation that you want

1121
01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:01,000
Speaker 2: to bring in here, or did we cover We ended

1122
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:02,320
Speaker 2: a pretty decent death.

1123
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:04,800
Speaker 1: Was actually Sean. I talked to a lot of people

1124
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:09,520
Speaker 1: who do a lot of interviews, and you are regularly

1125
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:12,360
Speaker 1: mentioned is one of the best of not the best

1126
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:15,880
Speaker 1: Christian interviewers today. This is typical. You sent me a list.

1127
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:17,599
Speaker 1: How many questions were on my list? Twenty?

1128
01:09:18,040 --> 01:09:21,480
Speaker 2: Uh said, yeah, twelve, fifteen plus maybe.

1129
01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:24,439
Speaker 1: I read them real quickly, and I thought to myself, yeah,

1130
01:09:25,120 --> 01:09:27,559
Speaker 1: he's done his homework because all these are on my chapter.

1131
01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:30,960
Speaker 1: It was not anything you know, but I would run

1132
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:32,960
Speaker 1: and make a point here at the very end. It's

1133
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:38,880
Speaker 1: not true or false on reincarnation, but I do have

1134
01:09:39,120 --> 01:09:42,000
Speaker 1: here's my final two points we've covered. The one we

1135
01:09:42,040 --> 01:09:44,519
Speaker 1: haven't really mentioned. The other one, the one I would

1136
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:49,760
Speaker 1: cover is I don't think this argument is even challenging.

1137
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:53,040
Speaker 1: If you if you said to me, Hey, you're the

1138
01:09:53,080 --> 01:09:55,760
Speaker 1: resurrection guy. Your fourth volumes coming on any time. It's

1139
01:09:55,760 --> 01:09:58,160
Speaker 1: almost four thousand pages of work on the resurrection. What

1140
01:09:58,200 --> 01:10:00,400
Speaker 1: do you think about the hallucination theory? You got great,

1141
01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:02,960
Speaker 1: big chapter on it, and you handle it a bunch

1142
01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:07,800
Speaker 1: of other places. I'd say, hmm, Sean, that's probably the

1143
01:10:07,840 --> 01:10:12,160
Speaker 1: toughest naturalistic theory to deal with. I acknowledge it's kind

1144
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:14,840
Speaker 1: of tough. You go, hey, on a world religious question,

1145
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:17,840
Speaker 1: what do you think about reincarnation, I'd say, Sean, in

1146
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:22,559
Speaker 1: my view, not close. I don't think they're comparable arguments.

1147
01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:25,280
Speaker 1: I think that's something to be said. And one of

1148
01:10:25,320 --> 01:10:28,639
Speaker 1: the biggest problems is my baseball or football illustration, your

1149
01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:32,439
Speaker 1: puzzle illustration. When the whole when the whole world view

1150
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:35,000
Speaker 1: is at odds with each other, and you start talking

1151
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:38,560
Speaker 1: about which world view is right, we're only doing reincarnation.

1152
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:42,000
Speaker 1: On reincarnation, I don't think it's anything to worry about.

1153
01:10:42,240 --> 01:10:44,240
Speaker 1: But if you're gonna do big picture on world views,

1154
01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:47,120
Speaker 1: don't even start me. You're gonna lose before you start.

1155
01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:51,000
Speaker 1: I mean the source over here's to my left by

1156
01:10:51,040 --> 01:10:57,160
Speaker 1: a Buddhist PhD. English professor, British professor. He says, we

1157
01:10:57,240 --> 01:11:00,599
Speaker 1: don't he's a Buddhist. He says, we don't even know

1158
01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:04,960
Speaker 1: what Buddha taught. The earliest sources that I'm in favor

1159
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:08,880
Speaker 1: of are six hundred to eight hundred years after Buddha died. Wow,

1160
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:12,599
Speaker 1: we don't. That's not history. But if that's the source

1161
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:15,200
Speaker 1: you're going to use, we say, you're not even the ballgame.

1162
01:11:15,240 --> 01:11:17,080
Speaker 1: And you admitted it. You said you don't have any

1163
01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:21,639
Speaker 1: evidences too, Okay on that level, I don't think it's

1164
01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:24,240
Speaker 1: a good objection. Here's my last one that we haven't

1165
01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:30,559
Speaker 1: really mentioned. I've said this all my life because I'm

1166
01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:33,519
Speaker 1: not proud of this, But in my twenty years of doubting,

1167
01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:37,920
Speaker 1: I got involved in the occult more than I should have.

1168
01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:43,280
Speaker 1: Then I had a leading occult expert who was converted

1169
01:11:44,920 --> 01:11:47,360
Speaker 1: from the occult. He was not a Christian. He was

1170
01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:52,320
Speaker 1: a leader in a non Christian group. So I thought, oh,

1171
01:11:52,360 --> 01:11:54,599
Speaker 1: here's the guy who can answer my questions. And I

1172
01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:57,439
Speaker 1: wasn't looking at that time for evidence for christian I

1173
01:11:57,479 --> 01:12:00,400
Speaker 1: wish I knew indies in those days, because that's a

1174
01:12:00,400 --> 01:12:04,200
Speaker 1: blowaway on almost everything. But I thought the occult might

1175
01:12:04,240 --> 01:12:07,680
Speaker 1: give some evidence is for and after life, not necessarily

1176
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:10,559
Speaker 1: for Christianity. So I was asking everything because I wanted

1177
01:12:10,600 --> 01:12:14,280
Speaker 1: evidence wherever it could be found. I should never have

1178
01:12:14,320 --> 01:12:16,599
Speaker 1: gone there. But this guy scared me to death one

1179
01:12:16,600 --> 01:12:18,960
Speaker 1: time because I kept writing letters to him. He was

1180
01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:24,280
Speaker 1: a European and he kept answering my objections, and one

1181
01:12:24,360 --> 01:12:27,240
Speaker 1: day I wrote him five more questions after I've probably

1182
01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:29,920
Speaker 1: written twenty to him over the years. And he was

1183
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:33,040
Speaker 1: at the top of his craft. He could do things

1184
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:37,880
Speaker 1: spiritistically that would make him the apex, one of the

1185
01:12:37,920 --> 01:12:40,680
Speaker 1: apex people in the whole world. But he wrote sent

1186
01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:42,240
Speaker 1: the letter back to me. I still have it, it's

1187
01:12:42,280 --> 01:12:44,559
Speaker 1: in my file, and it scared me to death. Here's

1188
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:48,600
Speaker 1: what he said to me this time, I am not

1189
01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:51,560
Speaker 1: going to answer your five questions. I'm not going to

1190
01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:55,120
Speaker 1: answer any more of your questions. This guy was converted. Remember,

1191
01:12:56,240 --> 01:12:58,479
Speaker 1: he was acting more Christianly than I was. I was

1192
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:02,120
Speaker 1: a pastor Sean and at the time, and he wrote

1193
01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:04,360
Speaker 1: back to me and he goes, I will not answer questions,

1194
01:13:04,400 --> 01:13:10,280
Speaker 1: and in this sentence you are playing with fire. Oh

1195
01:13:10,640 --> 01:13:12,640
Speaker 1: hear me to death. And that letter is in my

1196
01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:17,240
Speaker 1: file to this day. Happened thirty years ago, but it's

1197
01:13:17,240 --> 01:13:20,559
Speaker 1: in my file, all right. Here's my point. This kind

1198
01:13:20,560 --> 01:13:24,760
Speaker 1: of argument, to me, is a backdoor argument for the

1199
01:13:24,800 --> 01:13:28,760
Speaker 1: truth of Christianity, just like evidence is for the occult.

1200
01:13:29,360 --> 01:13:34,040
Speaker 1: Are backdoor arguments for the Christian worldview. If Satan could

1201
01:13:34,080 --> 01:13:36,479
Speaker 1: do the things that Jesus says he can, I e.

1202
01:13:36,960 --> 01:13:40,120
Speaker 1: Deceive the very elect if he can do it. If

1203
01:13:40,160 --> 01:13:43,000
Speaker 1: Satan does that, and we find out there Satan, we

1204
01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:45,759
Speaker 1: find out Satan exists, or we find out that occult

1205
01:13:45,800 --> 01:13:53,400
Speaker 1: phenomena exists, and they have compared to reincarnation the occultic stuff.

1206
01:13:53,439 --> 01:13:55,640
Speaker 1: I want to talk. I'll give a testimony once a

1207
01:13:55,640 --> 01:13:58,000
Speaker 1: while and say stay away from it. It's a page turner.

1208
01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:00,040
Speaker 1: But I won't tell you what I was asking. I

1209
01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:02,519
Speaker 1: won't tell you what I'm doing because you're too easy

1210
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:04,880
Speaker 1: to get sucked into it. Christians. I don't talk about

1211
01:14:04,960 --> 01:14:07,360
Speaker 1: my classes. I just say stay away from it, like

1212
01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:11,759
Speaker 1: that guy told me. But it is a backdoor evidence

1213
01:14:11,760 --> 01:14:16,919
Speaker 1: for Christianity. If there's a pile of really supernatural evidence

1214
01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:20,679
Speaker 1: I don't think reincarnation fits that bill. But if there's

1215
01:14:20,840 --> 01:14:26,439
Speaker 1: really backdoor and you start going, whoa Spiritism, it's a

1216
01:14:26,479 --> 01:14:30,840
Speaker 1: little more inclusive than Christianity, be a little nicer. But

1217
01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:35,240
Speaker 1: that doesn't follow from this stuff. It follows that Satan

1218
01:14:35,479 --> 01:14:39,160
Speaker 1: is not God and he's going to be judged. But however,

1219
01:14:39,600 --> 01:14:41,960
Speaker 1: it does say that this world is a supernatural world.

1220
01:14:42,479 --> 01:14:45,320
Speaker 1: It does say there's spirits, It does say that the

1221
01:14:45,400 --> 01:14:52,040
Speaker 1: general Hebrew, even Muslim, that the Islamic, Jewish, Christian worldview

1222
01:14:52,120 --> 01:14:56,800
Speaker 1: is generally true with demons and so on. It evidences Christianity.

1223
01:14:57,680 --> 01:14:59,840
Speaker 1: And that's the last thing I'd say. If this argument

1224
01:14:59,880 --> 01:15:02,040
Speaker 1: is even in the ballpark, and you want to make

1225
01:15:02,040 --> 01:15:07,760
Speaker 1: an argument for Hinduism, but you've got data. You know,

1226
01:15:08,080 --> 01:15:11,600
Speaker 1: this little fellow tell you whereas the person's buried in

1227
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:14,400
Speaker 1: which room is his? If this is really evidence, he

1228
01:15:14,840 --> 01:15:16,839
Speaker 1: didn't learn it from his parents, and we can't explain

1229
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:18,600
Speaker 1: it any other way. But you don't have any other

1230
01:15:18,720 --> 01:15:23,000
Speaker 1: ballplayers on your team or puzzle pieces that fit. I

1231
01:15:23,000 --> 01:15:26,640
Speaker 1: think that favorites Christianity by a mile. But it is

1232
01:15:27,040 --> 01:15:32,000
Speaker 1: a backdoor evidence for Christianity, because in scripture the occult exists.

1233
01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:36,800
Speaker 1: That's why in Act sixteen, that's why Paul casts the

1234
01:15:36,840 --> 01:15:40,760
Speaker 1: spirit out of the little girl that was doing supernatural things.

1235
01:15:41,240 --> 01:15:44,160
Speaker 1: What she was doing was an evidence for Christianity, but

1236
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:48,800
Speaker 1: not because her beliefs were her religion was true. So

1237
01:15:48,880 --> 01:15:50,799
Speaker 1: I think that was last thing I'd say things about

1238
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:54,280
Speaker 1: spiritism and Eastern thought. Thank you for giving us one

1239
01:15:54,280 --> 01:15:57,719
Speaker 1: more evidence for our position, but it doesn't it doesn't

1240
01:15:57,840 --> 01:16:00,320
Speaker 1: challenge us on any kind of evidence that anyway, you're

1241
01:16:00,439 --> 01:16:02,160
Speaker 1: legal anywhere near equal.

1242
01:16:03,240 --> 01:16:06,080
Speaker 2: Well, I've personally heard and read a lot of stories

1243
01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:08,479
Speaker 2: and evidences from me, Gary, but that one you shared

1244
01:16:08,479 --> 01:16:10,839
Speaker 2: about the letter is one I have not heard before

1245
01:16:11,280 --> 01:16:14,040
Speaker 2: and gave me the hills when you said it as well.

1246
01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:18,600
Speaker 2: So bottom line is I agree with you that the

1247
01:16:18,760 --> 01:16:23,520
Speaker 2: evidence for reincarnation does not compare to the historical evidence

1248
01:16:23,600 --> 01:16:27,840
Speaker 2: for resurrection. The reason to not include it in your

1249
01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:31,919
Speaker 2: resurrection volumes is because it doesn't pose a historical challenge.

1250
01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:35,439
Speaker 2: But this video is important because on a popular level,

1251
01:16:35,560 --> 01:16:38,400
Speaker 2: so many people in America, some who claim to be

1252
01:16:38,479 --> 01:16:43,080
Speaker 2: Christians and worldwide, embrace recarnation. So some of you're watching

1253
01:16:43,080 --> 01:16:46,320
Speaker 2: this and saying, hey, Ian Stevenson has passed away. He

1254
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:50,040
Speaker 2: used to be the expert, there is new evidence for reincarnation.

1255
01:16:50,240 --> 01:16:54,040
Speaker 2: You guys have not considered tag a blow. We will

1256
01:16:54,080 --> 01:16:55,720
Speaker 2: take a look at it. I'll talk with Gary and

1257
01:16:55,760 --> 01:16:57,600
Speaker 2: maybe we'll do a response to that. So if you

1258
01:16:57,640 --> 01:17:01,480
Speaker 2: think there's other pieces of evidence, don't tag a dissertation,

1259
01:17:01,680 --> 01:17:05,160
Speaker 2: send us quick articles or points. All take a look

1260
01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:07,120
Speaker 2: and if it's there and we need to revisit this,

1261
01:17:07,720 --> 01:17:09,679
Speaker 2: I'd be happy to come back. And before you click

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01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:12,240
Speaker 2: away and make sure you hit subscribe, we've got some

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01:17:12,360 --> 01:17:16,080
Speaker 2: other shows cut up on resurrection. Near death experience is

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01:17:16,120 --> 01:17:18,839
Speaker 2: the scientific evidence for God and some of the leading

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01:17:18,920 --> 01:17:22,679
Speaker 2: Christian scholars and beyond coming on for conversation. You won't

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01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:25,120
Speaker 2: want to miss it. If you thought about studying poljeics,

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01:17:25,160 --> 01:17:27,880
Speaker 2: we'd love to have you at Top School Theology online

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01:17:28,040 --> 01:17:31,479
Speaker 2: or in person. Information below and Gary's you know, we

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01:17:31,520 --> 01:17:34,280
Speaker 2: have a certificate program. We offer a BIOLA. We've just

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01:17:34,400 --> 01:17:39,000
Speaker 2: completely updated that and there's this significant discount below. If

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01:17:39,040 --> 01:17:41,559
Speaker 2: you kind of want to formally study apologetics, aren't ready

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01:17:41,600 --> 01:17:44,400
Speaker 2: for a masterss with me or a PhD at Liberty,

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01:17:44,800 --> 01:17:47,920
Speaker 2: take a look at the certificate program. Gary, thanks for

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01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:50,719
Speaker 2: coming on, and when your next volume four is out,

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01:17:50,800 --> 01:17:54,400
Speaker 2: we will do a show on that for sure. Always

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01:17:54,439 --> 01:17:57,040
Speaker 2: appreciate you coming on, and thanks for being a friend

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01:17:57,080 --> 01:17:57,479
Speaker 2: as well.

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01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:00,720
Speaker 1: You're welcome, Sean. It's a great show. Oh, I enjoyed it.

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01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:02,559
Speaker 1: I've been looking forward for a long time and I

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01:18:02,600 --> 01:18:04,920
Speaker 1: think it's your question that largely pulled this thing off.

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01:18:05,240 --> 01:18:08,479
Speaker 1: You directed to the right places that I could not

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01:18:08,640 --> 01:18:10,360
Speaker 1: have to say, Oh, don't go too far. I've got

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01:18:10,400 --> 01:18:12,040
Speaker 1: to give you three other points. You just worked a

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01:18:12,080 --> 01:18:15,440
Speaker 1: write in from the beginning. I think it was fantastic.

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01:18:16,240 --> 01:18:19,360
Speaker 2: Thanks brother, Hey friends, if you enjoyed this show, please

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01:18:19,479 --> 01:18:22,240
Speaker 2: hit that fall button on your podcast app. Most of

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01:18:22,280 --> 01:18:24,679
Speaker 2: you tuning in haven't done this yet, and it makes

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01:18:24,720 --> 01:18:27,519
Speaker 2: a huge difference in helping us reach and equip more

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01:18:27,560 --> 01:18:31,719
Speaker 2: people and build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review.

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01:18:32,080 --> 01:18:35,719
Speaker 2: Every review helps. Thanks for listening to The Sean McDowell Show,

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01:18:35,840 --> 01:18:39,680
Speaker 2: brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University,

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01:18:39,720 --> 01:18:43,040
Speaker 2: where we have on campus and online programs and apologetic

1293
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:46,360
Speaker 2: spiritual firmation, marriage and family Bible, and so much more.

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01:18:46,439 --> 01:18:49,439
Speaker 2: We would love to train you to more effectively live, teach,

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01:18:49,520 --> 01:18:52,360
Speaker 2: and defend the Christian faith today and we will see

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01:18:52,400 --> 01:19:00,080
Speaker 2: you when the next episode drops. This