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Speaker 1: Coming up. It's the last show before Christmas, and so

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Speaker 1: I'm going to give you a little archaeological nugget about

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Speaker 1: Christmas that I think you'll find interesting. I'm also going

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Speaker 1: to talk about anti white discrimination, and specifically the discrimination

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Speaker 1: against white males. I'm happy to say the government is

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Speaker 1: finally doing something about it, and I'll continue my exploration

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Speaker 1: of arguments for life after death. Hey, if you're watching

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Speaker 1: on YouTube x SO Rumble, listening on Apple or Spotify,

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Speaker 1: please subscribe to my channel. This is the Dinesh to

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Speaker 1: SUSA podcast.

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Speaker 2: America needs this voice. The times are crazy and a

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Speaker 2: time of confusion, division and lies. We need a brave

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Speaker 2: voice of reason, understanding and truth. This is the Dones

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Speaker 2: de SUSA podcast.

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Speaker 1: We are coming right up toward Christmas, and in fact

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Speaker 1: this is the This is the last podcast of the week.

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Speaker 1: We then go into a little break for the holiday season.

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Speaker 1: For the Christmas season, I pick it up on Monday

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Speaker 1: of next week, and I thought I would begin by

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Speaker 1: saying a couple of words about the archaeology of Christmas,

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Speaker 1: the archaeology of the birth of Jesus. I don't have

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Speaker 1: to say too much about the enormous significance historical, theological,

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Speaker 1: cultural of Jesus. He is quite obviously the most transformative

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Speaker 1: figure in history. There's no easy second place, or the

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Speaker 1: second place guy is pretty far behind. And Jesus produces

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Speaker 1: a a revolution, a moral revolution, a revolution in some

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Speaker 1: ways in the understanding of human beings. Prior to Jesus

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Speaker 1: and the Apostles. If you think of great men and

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Speaker 1: great figures in history, they are all the high and mighty.

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Speaker 1: They are kings. Think of the great kings of the Bible,

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Speaker 1: King David, King Solomon. They are prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, Elijah,

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Speaker 1: and so on. Or they are courtiers, aristocrats, conquerors, Sanacarebbukdnezar,

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Speaker 1: the Mongols, Genghis Khan, and so on. And suddenly with

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Speaker 1: Jesus you find an ordinary fellow, a carpenter. Dad's a carpenter.

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Speaker 1: The guys he hangs out with are fairly low level

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Speaker 1: guiys in society. They are fishermen. And yet they are endowed.

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Speaker 1: They are given by the Gospel writers such a profound

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Speaker 1: and sublime dignity that there is a great moral shift here.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like the high and mighty of the world

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Speaker 1: that brought down a notch the ordinary man, the common citizen,

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Speaker 1: is raised up. And so this transformation begins really with

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Speaker 1: the Gospels and then has long lasting effects through history.

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Speaker 1: Jesus was born, according to the Bible, in a manger.

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Speaker 1: But what's a manger. Well, a manger actually is not

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Speaker 1: quote a place per se. It is a setup for

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Speaker 1: storing cattle, and particularly in the hot season and in

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Speaker 1: the cold season. And you couldn't just leave cattle outside,

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Speaker 1: and so the idea is that the cattle need to

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Speaker 1: be brought indoors, but where you can't bring him into

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Speaker 1: the humble dwellings of the people, and so the cattle

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Speaker 1: were generally stored in caves. These are sometimes called shepherd's caves.

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Speaker 1: And Jesus was born in a cave, in a cave

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Speaker 1: in Bethlehem. By the way, Bethlehem today is a Muslim

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Speaker 1: some would say Palestinian city. But in that city is

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Speaker 1: the Church of the Nativity, and underneath the Church of

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Speaker 1: the Nativity is a cave or caves, and that is

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Speaker 1: the traditional location of where Jesus was born. It might

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Speaker 1: seem unbelievable that one could identify a spot like that

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Speaker 1: after two thousand years, and I'm doing some work now,

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Speaker 1: actually for Prager. You making a series of videos on

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Speaker 1: biblical archaeology, and in it I will tell the story

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Speaker 1: of how it is the case that we are able

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Speaker 1: to know archaeologically what the significance of those caves is,

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Speaker 1: and why there is a very good chance. In fact,

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Speaker 1: an Israeli archaeologist named Gabriel Barkae not a Christian by

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Speaker 1: the way he goes. Yes, he goes that traditional location

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Speaker 1: is the correct location for Jesus' birth. So I hope

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Speaker 1: that that is just a word or two of inspiration

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Speaker 1: for the Christmas season and for the spirit of Christmas

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Speaker 1: that we should recall and also resolved to carry us

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Speaker 1: through through the new year. Now let me talk about

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Speaker 1: this post here by the chairman of the EEOC, the

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Speaker 1: Equal Employment Opportunity Commissioner, name is Andrew Lucas. Are you

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Speaker 1: a white male who has experienced discrimination at work based

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Speaker 1: on your race or sex? She goes on to say,

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Speaker 1: you may have a claim to recover money. The EEOC

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Speaker 1: is committed to identifying, attacking, and eliminating all race and

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Speaker 1: sex discrimination, including against white male employees and applicants. And

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Speaker 1: as I saw that post, I thought to myself, we

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Speaker 1: have come a long way, because I have, for virtually

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Speaker 1: all my time in America lived in a society which

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Speaker 1: has systematically discriminated against white males. It has also vilified

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Speaker 1: them through history, through the media, through the textbooks, through

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Speaker 1: the academic system. There has been relentless battering ram of

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Speaker 1: propaganda against white males. And that's bad enough, But then

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Speaker 1: what makes it worse is when you have elaborate schemes

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Speaker 1: of discrimination cutting in multiple directions. And so there's discrimination

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Speaker 1: in favor of blacks and against whites, and in favor

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Speaker 1: of women, and against men and in favor of But

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Speaker 1: the net effect of all this is that if you

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Speaker 1: are the white male, you are the ultimate target of

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Speaker 1: this discrimination. And it's been going on in college admissions,

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Speaker 1: it's been going on in the workplace, it's been going

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Speaker 1: on in federal contracts. It's been going on in state

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Speaker 1: jobs and state contracts. It's been going on everywhere, and

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Speaker 1: it's really deprived a whole generation of white men really

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Speaker 1: of their birthright, and by birth right here I mean

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Speaker 1: nothing more than their ability to compete on equal terms

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Speaker 1: with everyone else. And so now finally this is being challenged.

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Speaker 1: I won't say it's come to an end because even

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Speaker 1: though some people go, yeoh, DEI is finished. DEI is

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Speaker 1: not finished. It still remains the practice, even if somewhat covert,

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Speaker 1: in a number of universities. For example, they're not really

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Speaker 1: getting rid of their diversity operations, they're just renaming them.

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Speaker 1: They're not really getting rid of their entrenched bigotry against

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Speaker 1: white men. They're simply calling it inclusion. And they've developed

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Speaker 1: very sneaky devices that register the underrepresentation of every group

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Speaker 1: except white males. And when you find that white males

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Speaker 1: are underrepresented, for example, nothing is done, no action is taken,

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Speaker 1: no action needs to be taken, according to the DEI crew.

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Speaker 1: And so this discrimination is very much it's going to

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Speaker 1: take a lot of effort to root this out. But

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Speaker 1: until now there was not even an explicit acknowledgement of

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Speaker 1: the problem. And not an explicit acknowledgement people would speak

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Speaker 1: about color blind rhetoric in a general sense. Well, we're

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Speaker 1: not just talking about a colorblind rhetoric. We're talking here

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Speaker 1: about identifying the fact that discrimination against a male is

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Speaker 1: just as bad as discrimination against women. And think of

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Speaker 1: all the humbug and all the hoopla that has been

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Speaker 1: made over discrimination against women, over the last five decades. Well,

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Speaker 1: we actually need to have the same kind of passion

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Speaker 1: about rooting out discrimination against men. And similarly, think of

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Speaker 1: all the times you've heard about racism and white supremacy

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Speaker 1: and institutionalized racism and proportional representation and DEI and all

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Speaker 1: of it, all of it, by the way, aimed at

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Speaker 1: raising the representation of non whites in the workforce education

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Speaker 1: to the detriment of white men. Now, very often this

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Speaker 1: project is not labeled as such. People tell I want

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Speaker 1: to need to increase the representation of minorities. But let's

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Speaker 1: remember that a lot of these jobs and college positions

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Speaker 1: are a zero sum game. There are only so many

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Speaker 1: openings for the freshmen, let's say, at Brown University, and

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Speaker 1: so if you're going to take more blacks and Hispanics,

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Speaker 1: you're going to take fewer whites and Asians. It's you

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Speaker 1: can't raise the floor without lowering the ceiling. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of an algebraic impossibility. And so again, for the first

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Speaker 1: time that I can see from a leading organ a government.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, I'm happy to say that my

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Speaker 1: friend from Dartmouth, Harmey Dylan, is all over this. The

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Speaker 1: DOJ is all over it, and now we can see

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Speaker 1: the EEOC is all over it. There needs to be

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Speaker 1: a ruthless campaign to stamp out the discrimination against white males.

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Speaker 1: And I like the fact that she even says here

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Speaker 1: you may have a claim to recover money, because what

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Speaker 1: she's really saying is that discrimination should not be cost free.

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Speaker 1: If companies of universities have been discriminating against you, and

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Speaker 1: if you can show it, you can prove it, then

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Speaker 1: you are entitled the compensation. Just like if blacks are

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Speaker 1: victims of discrimination, they're able to go and claim damages

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Speaker 1: as a result of that discrimination. They were obviously hurt

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Speaker 1: by that discrimination. It cost them potential earnings, It prevented

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Speaker 1: them from getting positions they otherwise would have gotten. That's

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Speaker 1: the way you kind of measure the degree of harm

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Speaker 1: that has been caused. And I like the fact that

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Speaker 1: the EEOC is not merely giving lip service to the

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Speaker 1: idea of color blindness, but identifying the main victims of it,

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Speaker 1: namely white males, and has a program and a determination

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Speaker 1: to do something about it. You know, incorporating a wide

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Speaker 1: variety of whole food ingredients into my daily routine is

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Speaker 1: key for me, and I get that from Balance of

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Speaker 1: Nature fruits and veggie supplements. They make it simple. They

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Speaker 1: give me the fruits and veggheese that I need, and

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Speaker 1: I simply don't have the time or energy to eat.

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Speaker 1: These harvested ingredients have freeze dried into a fine powder

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Speaker 1: using an advanced vacuum cold process to better preserve nutritional value.

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Speaker 1: I can say with total confidence, I'm getting thirty one

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Speaker 1: dot com and exploring Israel, where thousands of years of

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Speaker 1: history are on display, and embarking on a journey that

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Speaker 1: Jasuza inviting you to join me and New York Times

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Speaker 1: a very good relationship with a publishing company that produces

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Speaker 1: very high quality books in leather editions. This is sort

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Speaker 1: of top of shelf publishing, and these books are not

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Speaker 1: just to read there, they're essentially keepers. They're books that

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Speaker 1: you'll treasure having over many, many years. So the company

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Speaker 1: is called Gryffon Books and Gryffon Editions. There are their publications.

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Speaker 1: And I've actually met the guys who run this company,

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Speaker 1: lovely people that come to our house more than once

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Speaker 1: to have me sign a bunch of the books. And

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Speaker 1: I've been delighted to do that and to get to

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Speaker 1: know them. And I'm going to have on today as

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Speaker 1: my guest, Daniel Stein, and he's the author of a

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Speaker 1: new book that is called American Dystopia, The Handmaid's Tale

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Speaker 1: and Puritan History. I didn't really quite know what to

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Speaker 1: make of this book when I first got it, but

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Speaker 1: it is quite fascinating and a real window into the

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Speaker 1: world of the Puritans. By the way, Daniel Stein writes

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Speaker 1: a substack d N Stein sdi n dot substack dot

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Speaker 1: com and Gryffon Editions. It's Gryffon Editions dot com. But

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Speaker 1: you can find Danny's book, Daniel Stein's book at Gryffon

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Speaker 1: Editions dot com. Slash product slash American dash Dystopia. Daniel Welcome,

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Speaker 1: Thank you, for joining me. You are a very young fellow,

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Speaker 1: and you have produced a well, I call it a

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Speaker 1: semi scholarly book. I hope you agree with that characterization

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Speaker 1: of it. How did you undertake this enterprise of writing

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Speaker 1: a book that connect The Handmaid's Tale with the history

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Speaker 1: of the Puritans.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I was assigned The Handmaids S Telle when

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Speaker 3: I was a senior in high school, So, like a

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Speaker 3: lot of other people my age, that was my first

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Speaker 3: encounter with the book. And I didn't know much about

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Speaker 3: it beforehand, but I think reading the book, I had

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Speaker 3: some basic knowledge of the history, and it just seemed

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Speaker 3: like a lot of and you know, the books allegedly

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Speaker 3: based on this historical time period appeared in New England

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Speaker 3: in the sixteen hundreds, and it's allegedly describing America's foundations

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Speaker 3: and what that would look like if it came back today.

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Speaker 3: And I had some basic knowledge of the history, and

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Speaker 3: it just seemed really wrong to me. And the more

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Speaker 3: I read, the more aspects of the society she was

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Speaker 3: marked out with the author of The Handmaids Tale was

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Speaker 3: describing just seemed wrong. And then also coming from a

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Speaker 3: traditional Jewish background, I also had some familiarity with the

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Speaker 3: original Biblical text that she was basing her institutions in

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Speaker 3: the society on. And I was familiar with the original

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Speaker 3: Hebrew text and at least how those passages were carried over,

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Speaker 3: interpreted and Jewish tradition. So from that perspective too, it

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Speaker 3: just seemed like a lot of what she was saying

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Speaker 3: didn't make any sense. And I started looking into it,

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Speaker 3: started doing some research, and ended up writing pointing out

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Speaker 3: a lot of these inconsistencies or errors and just class assignments,

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Speaker 3: and then ended up having enough to turn into a book.

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Speaker 3: And the way I kind of see the Handmaid's Tale

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Speaker 3: is that just like classic dystopias, which traditionally have been

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Speaker 3: taught in schools like mateteen eighty four Brave New World,

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Speaker 3: they weren't about things like communism or totalitarianism. The Handmaid

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Speaker 3: sells a book that warns about Americanism and specifically claims

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Speaker 3: that there's this strain of religious thought in American history

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Speaker 3: going back to the Puritans that's responsible for a lot

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Speaker 3: of bad things, or it's like a predominantly negative strain

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Speaker 3: in our country's past.

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Speaker 1: Would it be accurate to summarize Margaret Atwood's book by

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Speaker 1: saying that it alleges that our country's history is rooted

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Speaker 1: in a kind of extreme theocratic society in which you

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Speaker 1: have a group of male patriarchs who impose a kind

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Speaker 1: of authoritarian control not just over the society politically, but

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Speaker 1: particularly over women, so domestically as well. Women are essentially slaves,

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Speaker 1: They have no rights. They function as handmaids, and let's explain.

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Speaker 1: Let's start by explaining that term, because people may not

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Speaker 1: know what do you mean by a handmaid? Who is

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Speaker 1: what's the handmade reference in the title?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think I would choice to use the word

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Speaker 3: handmaid in the first place is a bit risky because

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Speaker 3: handmaids in an English word, it's not a Hebrew word,

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Speaker 3: doesn't show up in the Bible. And the women that

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Speaker 3: she refers to as handmaids in the Bible are actually

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Speaker 3: referred to by a bunch of different terms. So sometimes

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Speaker 3: they're called wives, sometimes they're called concubines, sometimes they're called

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Speaker 3: maid servants or slaves. So it's a little bit unclear

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Speaker 3: from the Bible itself what a handmaid actually is. And

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Speaker 3: so what you have to do is look at the

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Speaker 3: ancient message Tamian context. So handmaids aren't a Biblical institution

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Speaker 3: and not a Jewish institution, not a Christian institution. There's

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Speaker 3: something that was existed before the Bible, and you can

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Speaker 3: find it in text like ham Robbie's Code, an ancient

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Speaker 3: Mesopotamian legal document, and you know in those documents, I

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Speaker 3: think the irony is that, whereas in the Handmaid's tell

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Speaker 3: handmaid handmaids are kind of this instrument for the elite

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Speaker 3: in society, elite men to produce children and increase the

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Speaker 3: birth rate and solve this fertility crisis that she has

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Speaker 3: in her book, in ancient Mesopotamian society, handmaids are actually

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Speaker 3: a woman's right. So this is a society that had

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Speaker 3: widespread polygamy, widespread slavery, and if a woman couldn't produce

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Speaker 3: an er an error for her husband, then her husband

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Speaker 3: had their right to marry another woman, displacing the first wife,

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Speaker 3: unless the first wife actually had the right to force

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Speaker 3: her husband to have a kid with her handmaid, and

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Speaker 3: that essentially preserved her status within the marriage. And then

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Speaker 3: in addition to that, handmaids were also associated with certain

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Speaker 3: idolatrous practices. So for example, there's certain priestesses that are

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Speaker 3: mentioned in ham Robbie's code, who weren't allowed to have children,

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Speaker 3: and when they got married, the way they would produce

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Speaker 3: children for their husband was they would give him a handmaid,

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Speaker 3: give him one of their female slaves. And that's how

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Speaker 3: they had produced children. And so certainly you wouldn't expect

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Speaker 3: the Bible to be endorsing adolatrous practices. He wouldn't expect

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Speaker 3: the patriarchs to be engaging in adoltrous practices. That's kind

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Speaker 3: of a story of how those things were rejected, and

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Speaker 3: that's exactly what you find. I think any you know,

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Speaker 3: ancient ancient Jew, ancient Israelite reading the text who is

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Speaker 3: maybe familiar with the context and which these practices existed,

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Speaker 3: would have realized that what the Bible's describing isn't the

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Speaker 3: patriarchs using handmaids or engaging in this practice. It's how

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Speaker 3: they rejected it. And so the Bible actually describes how

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Speaker 3: they they moved away from this institution. So, for example,

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Speaker 3: under Mesopotamia law, handmaids had certain rights. They couldn't be

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Speaker 3: kicked out of the house, they couldn't be abused. Well,

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Speaker 3: what happens in the uh, you know, in the Hebrew Bible.

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Speaker 3: You know, first of all, God never gives any explicit

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Speaker 3: endorsement of this practice. So it's a product of you know,

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Speaker 3: Rachel gets jealous or her sister or you know, sarah'subsett

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Speaker 3: because she can't have children, and they decide to resort

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Speaker 3: to this institution with which they were familiar because that

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Speaker 3: was part of their background, that was part of the

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Speaker 3: cultural context in which they lived. This is a time

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Speaker 3: before Judas and before the Bible, before Moses, before any

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Speaker 3: of that stuff, so it's not necessarily presented as you know,

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Speaker 3: having a positive origin. And then you know what happens.

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Speaker 3: Sarah gets upset. She demands that Abraham kicks the handmaid

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Speaker 3: out of the house. In this case, the handmaid's name

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Speaker 3: is Hagar, and Abraham's hesitant because that's not something you

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Speaker 3: do if you're an Mesopotamian and esked God, and God's like, no,

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Speaker 3: kick her out, kick her out, and kick kick her

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Speaker 3: out and enter a child as well, And so it's

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Speaker 3: kind of a rejection of this practice. And then by

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Speaker 3: the time you get to Jacob, who's you know, those

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Speaker 3: those passages are kind of the basis that at would

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Speaker 3: use this to base your story on and that's actually

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Speaker 3: like the epigraph at the beginning of the book is

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Speaker 3: this quote from Genesis where Rachel begs Jacob to take

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Speaker 3: a handmaid. You know, if you look there, the handmaids

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Speaker 3: are actually referred to as wives. So it's a complete

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Speaker 3: negation of the concept because they were treated as full wives.

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Speaker 3: And that's how it was, you know. Of course, this

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Speaker 3: is how it was obvious to to you know, ancient

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Speaker 3: Jews what the text was doing. It's like, you know,

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Speaker 3: for example, you wouldn't consider mummification a Jewish pract is just

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Speaker 3: because Joseph was mummified, Or you wouldn't consider child sacrifice

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Speaker 3: the Jewish practice just because there's references to it. You know,

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Speaker 3: Abraham almost sacrifices is sun Isaac. So these practices are

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Speaker 3: there for two reasons. One to show that, you know,

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Speaker 3: this is the history of the Jewish people, so it's

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Speaker 3: showing that the ancestors of the Jews were actually in

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Speaker 3: these places and actually we're engaging with these practices. So

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Speaker 3: there's also things like hit type property law that show

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Speaker 3: in the Hebrew Bible, which whenever part of Jewish law afterwards.

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Speaker 3: And second, they're there to show how the Patriarchs began

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Speaker 3: as Mesopotamians and gradually rejected different aspects of Mesopotamian culture,

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Speaker 3: and that includes things like handmaids. So under Jewish law,

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Speaker 3: under later Jewish law, it's illegal to have a handmade

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Speaker 3: you're not allowed to marry a female slave. That's not

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Speaker 3: something that was permitted at all. And the fact that

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Speaker 3: the patriarchs used them in commentaries is explained as you know,

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Speaker 3: one either purely negative or two as something that you know,

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Speaker 3: maybe this is the time before the Bible, before there

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Speaker 3: was these like strict rules, and so maybe you know,

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Speaker 3: there's some kind of providence involved here, but certainly not

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Speaker 3: a precedent something that's banned, very very explicitly. Later on

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Speaker 3: in Christianity, obviously coming out of a Jewish context, maintained

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Speaker 3: the same attitude towards handmaids. So Saint Augustine, Saint Ambrose,

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Speaker 3: all the Church fathers saw this the same way. They

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Speaker 3: saw it as adulterous, that's what they called it. And

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Speaker 3: then by the time you get to the Puritans, not

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Speaker 3: only do you have this traditional antipathy towards handmaids that

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Speaker 3: had always been there, but they had their own theological

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Speaker 3: reasons for rejecting handmaids. And so for the Puritans, the

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Speaker 3: distinguishing thing about the Puritans was that they were Calvinists theologically,

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Speaker 3: so they didn't believe that there was free will. They

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Speaker 3: thought everything was predetermined by God, and that included things

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Speaker 3: like childbirds. So when they read, you know, when they

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Speaker 3: read about Rachel basically being upset that she couldn't have

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Speaker 3: children and trying to work around it by giving Jacob

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Speaker 3: or handmaid that was something that for them they called it.

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Speaker 3: They was like, that's blasphemy. It's God that decides those things.

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Speaker 3: You don't get to, you know, use these like immoral

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Speaker 3: devices to get around what's already been decreed. And so

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Speaker 3: the Puritans repeatedly in their commentaries talk about how they

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Speaker 3: were discussed with handmaids in the strongest terms, and they

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Speaker 3: wrote tons of Bible commentaries, so you can find this.

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Speaker 3: So it's ironic, you know, I was, you know, handmaids

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Speaker 3: haven't existed for three thousand years. It's the Sancia Mesopotamian institution.

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Speaker 3: But yet we're supposed to believe that this is going

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Speaker 3: to be the basis of a Christian theocracy that somehow

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Speaker 3: emerges in America with Puritan roots, having no relationships to

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Speaker 3: the original context and certainly no relationship to the way

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Speaker 3: those those practices have been viewed within Judeo Christian tradition.

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Speaker 1: Talk a little bit, Daniel about the Puritans and the

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Speaker 1: fact that it doesn't really make any sense to say

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Speaker 1: that these were people who thought of women as being

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Speaker 1: a kind of morally subordinate or inferior class, and that

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Speaker 1: Puritan government was an authoritarian theocracy, and that, you know,

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Speaker 1: forced conversions, forced cultural practices were the defining features of

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Speaker 1: Puritan society. And one of the things that you sketch

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Speaker 1: out in the book is that this is a kind

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Speaker 1: of cartoon version of the Puritans. It doesn't describe Puritan

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Speaker 1: society at Also, why don't you highlight the three or

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Speaker 1: four aspects of Puritan society that really give the lie

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Speaker 1: to the Atwood portrayal in the in The Handmaid's Tale.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's not even a cartoon version. It's the

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Speaker 3: complete opposite. So let's just take those one by one. So,

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Speaker 3: for example, I think the most revealing thing when it

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Speaker 3: comes to the Puritans relationship with women is that their

426
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 3: own contemporaries ridiculed the Puritans for as a movement that

427
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 3: was full of like these weak and effeminate men who

428
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 3: are dominated by women. And they criticized the Puritans for

429
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 3: allowing women to preach and having these like loud and

430
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 3: obnoxious Puritan women who who controlled their husbands and we're

431
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 3: doing all the things that we're playing, this insubordinate role

432
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 3: that you know Atwito's claiming, you know, the Puritans specifically

433
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 3: as opposed to all other people's assigned to women and

434
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 3: their societies. That's the most revealing thing and that has

435
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,400
Speaker 3: theological roots, you know. So for the Puritans, again going

436
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 3: back to this idea of predestination, the Puritans didn't divide

437
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 3: humanity between genders. They didn't divide humanity between men and women,

438
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 3: or even between different races. Those categories didn't matter. What

439
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 3: mattered to the Puritans was the division between the elect.

440
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 2: And the damned.

441
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 3: And they believe that since the beginning of time, God

442
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 3: had predestined a small minority of humanity to be saved.

443
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 3: They were the elect, and that God had predestined, predestined

444
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 3: the vast majority of humanity to be damned, and so

445
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 3: and it was it was utterly arbitrary. It was up

446
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 3: to God. There was no way you could predict who

447
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 3: was one of the elector who was one of the damned.

448
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 3: Maybe there were some indications you could point to, but

449
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 3: there was no way to know for sure. It could

450
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,399
Speaker 3: be it could easily be a woman, It could be

451
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 3: a man, it could be someone of a different race.

452
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 3: It didn't there was no relationship to any honey of

453
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 3: these superficial features. So for a Puritan, well, if you

454
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 3: believe that like this woman could be part of the

455
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 3: elect then you know, why not let her preach? If

456
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 3: she if she is someone who's godly or is a

457
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 3: vehicle through which God can speak, that's, you know, the

458
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 3: same way he could throw a man, then why not

459
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 3: let them preach? Why not them? You know, per in

460
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,199
Speaker 3: women wrote pamphlets, what religious tracks, you know, did all

461
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,880
Speaker 3: the things that you know, you know, and the animates

462
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 3: till women can't read, they can't read the Bible, they

463
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 3: can't you know, they can't own property, I mean those

464
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 3: that's the complete opposite of how women were actually treated

465
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 3: in Puritan society. So it was the most gender equal

466
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 3: society of their time. Again going back to theological reasons

467
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 3: and then getting to stuff like authoritarianism. Actually, I think

468
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 3: before getting to that, let's talk about the sale Much trials,

469
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 3: because I think a lot of that would stereotypes about

470
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 3: Puritans and women come from the Salem Much trials. And

471
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 3: I think the most important thing there is that you know,

472
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,160
Speaker 3: in the Handmaid's Telle, women can't testify in court. That's

473
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 3: one of the rights they don't have. Well, if Puritan's

474
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 3: really that, then you couldn't have had the sale Much

475
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 3: trials because it was all based on women testifying in court.

476
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 3: That was all the witnesses in the first place. So

477
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 3: there's that to begin with. But second of all, when

478
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 3: it comes to the witch trials, I think that's the

479
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 3: origin of a lot of the stereotypes that would appeal

480
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 3: to when she writes this book. And I think the

481
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 3: most important thing is not about the sale Much trials.

482
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 3: Isn't the fact that the Puritans had witch trials. That

483
00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 3: was something that was going on all over the world

484
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 3: that the time. The beliefs they had about witches were universal.

485
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 3: Protestant Catholic, didn't matter, that's what that's what people believed.

486
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 3: So what was unique about the Salem witch trials wasn't

487
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 3: that they happened. They followed a pretty typical pattern of

488
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 3: other witch trials that happened in Europe. But it was

489
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 3: the response that followed, and so the witch trials themselves

490
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 3: lasted for about nine months sixty ninety two to sixty

491
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 3: ninety three, and in the aftermath it was this public

492
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 3: outrage and the jurors all, you know, signed a statement

493
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 3: apologizing for what they had done. The judges all apologized

494
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 3: for what they had done, some of the witnesses apologized

495
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 3: for what they had done. Reparations were given to the

496
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 3: families of the victims. For decades afterwards, Puritan ministers and

497
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 3: the Puritan government passed resolutions condemning what had happened. They

498
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 3: realized that they had done something wrong and prosecuted innocent people.

499
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 3: And the reason they had this reputation as witch hunters

500
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 3: as opposed to say, you know, the Catholic Church or

501
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 3: the Catholic Comquisition, you know, burned about fifty thousand women

502
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 3: as witches in about you know, a few hundred years,

503
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 3: and that continued long after the Salem witch trials. Whereas

504
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 3: Salem there was twenty people put to death, and that

505
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 3: was something that was very unusual for the Puritans. There

506
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 3: weren't really witch persecutions very frequently Impertan history. So it's this,

507
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 3: you know, the fact that the Puritans have this reputation

508
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 3: of being these unusually zealous witch hunters actually comes from

509
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 3: the fact that they were unusually public, but they were

510
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,959
Speaker 3: usual in publicizing their shortcomings for posterity and telling everyone

511
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 3: that they had messed up and done the wrong thing.

512
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 3: And they essentially ensured that there was never another witch

513
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 3: trial in America, never never happened again in New England

514
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 3: after that. That was the last time it happened, whereas

515
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 3: it continued in other parts of the world. Also when

516
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 3: it comes to stuff like the Selm witch trials. Again,

517
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 3: it's like that's one of the only sometimes in school,

518
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,719
Speaker 3: that's like the only thing you learned about the Puritans.

519
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: No, it's so true, And you know, we let's also

520
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: close out Daniel by talking about this issue of forced conversions,

521
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: because the Puritans have a reputation of being persecutors, you know,

522
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: and sometimes people talk about the American idea of religious

523
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: freedom as having developed against the Puritan ethos. But part

524
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: I think of what you show here is that no,

525
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: the core principle of religious freedom was in the Puritans themselves,

526
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: and that the Puritans did not believe in essentially strong

527
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: arming someone into becoming a Puritan. Can you talk about that?

528
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 3: Right? The religious person in the in the Handmaids tell

529
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 3: is unlike any persecution that took place in an actual

530
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 3: Puritan society. So im Puritan society, no one was forcibly

531
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 3: converted because I didn't believe you could forcibly convert people. Again,

532
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 3: it's God who chooses who's the elect and who's not,

533
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 3: and only the elect can be members of the church.

534
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 3: So if you're Puritan, it would actually be count it

535
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 3: would be something you wouldn't want to bring people by

536
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 3: force who aren't members of the elect into your church.

537
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 3: That was something they tried to avoid. So when Puritan

538
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 3: persecutions did take place, it always took the of expelling people.

539
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 3: So in New England, for example, when you know Quakers

540
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 3: showed up and again the Quakers are you know, Atwood's

541
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 3: talking about the Quakers as if it's the Quakers today,

542
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 3: whereas the Quakers back then were actually a quite militant

543
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 3: group who were very you know, they'd walk into churches

544
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 3: naked and screaming that everyone was damned or like shout

545
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 3: down the ministers. So a lot of this was just

546
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 3: public order. It wasn't even a religious thing. And the

547
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,239
Speaker 3: same you know, in England Quakers are persecuted, not by

548
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 3: the Puritance, by by by the Stewarts, by the Kings,

549
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 3: who also persecuted the Puritans. So and even Roger Williams,

550
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 3: who famously is one of the religious exiles from Massachusetts

551
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 3: and founded Rhode Island as a safe haven from religious persecution,

552
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 3: actually himself admitted that it might be a good idea

553
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 3: to put some restrictions on the Quakers, because he saw

554
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 3: them as barbarians, the undermines, you know, the peace. But again,

555
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 3: this looks nothing like persecution. And by the time you

556
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 3: get to later generations of puritance, so you get to

557
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 3: people like Coddon mother, who you know, for someone like that,

558
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 3: what is the example of everything that's wrong with American Puritanism.

559
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 3: Cod Mother condemned those early episodes of persecution of Quakers,

560
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 3: and he lamented them, said they were a horrible thing,

561
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 3: talked about how he had spoken out against such persecution,

562
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 3: and and and and apologize for what had happened. If

563
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 3: you go to England, there was a brief period in

564
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 3: England where Oliver Cromwell ruled as ord protector. He was

565
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 3: a Puritin, and you know, again that's kind of basing

566
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 3: your persecution off of what she thinks Puritin's did to Quakers.

567
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 3: But in England U. Cromwell was actually again quite quite

568
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 3: tolerant of Quakers. And and uh, you know again this

569
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 3: again goes back to theology. It's like if God, God's

570
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 3: in control of everything, so the social relates to authoritarianism,

571
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 3: and like why you allow people freedom, So it's like

572
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 3: personal freedom, religious freedom, But that's because like God's in control.

573
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 3: So if you're a state and you tried to force

574
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:38,959
Speaker 3: people to behave a certain way, or believe certain things,

575
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 3: or fill a certain role in society, then you're really

576
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 3: rebelling or you're fighting against what God's already decreed. Right,

577
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 3: the rule's already working in accordance with what you know,

578
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 3: God's managed, micromanaging every little thing. If you're a Purtin,

579
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 3: that's what you believe, and so it's not your place

580
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 3: as a human being to step into that and believe

581
00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 3: that you can determine better than God could. Very interest

582
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 3: stuff and go ahead, I'll just add one more thing,

583
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 3: because I think that would also make the claim that

584
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 3: Peerton's United Church and state. That's like the stereotypical claim,

585
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,359
Speaker 3: and that's and that's completely false. So actually, and uh,

586
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 3: you know, under Purton law, if you're a minister, you

587
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 3: couldn't hold secular office, whereas if you were a secular magistrate,

588
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 3: you couldn't be deposed from your position and for a

589
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,879
Speaker 3: purely religious events. So and then this is something that's

590
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 3: just in the you know, the foundational Puritan law codes

591
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,280
Speaker 3: in Massachusetts. And the goal of that for the Puritans

592
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 3: again is to like protect the church, So to protect

593
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 3: the church from interferenced by the secular magistrates. They had

594
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 3: this experience in England where you know, they thought that

595
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 3: the you know, the king and his you know henchmen

596
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,439
Speaker 3: had been interfering with God's institutions or they hadn't been

597
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 3: you know, pushed far enough from reforming the church in England.

598
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 3: And so the whole goal was to you know, kind

599
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 3: of separate these two spheres. And so while while magistrates

600
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 3: took advice from ministers, there was no ministers who governed Massachusetts,

601
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 3: there was no ministers who governed any Puritan colony. It

602
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,280
Speaker 3: wasn't a theocracy in that sense. That's the dictionary finish

603
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,919
Speaker 3: of the theocracy. Instead, they actually recognize the very clear

604
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 3: separation between those two things.

605
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: I mean, Daniel, I want to commend you for this

606
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,839
Speaker 1: work because it seems to me that with people like

607
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: Margaret Atwood who have an ideological acts to grind, and

608
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: in her case it seems pretty clear it's a certain

609
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 1: type of militant feminism, and in keeping with sort of

610
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: feminist irresponsibility, she takes a very sketchy view of history,

611
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 1: and many of us can kind of see it and

612
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 1: we realize that we're being fed some propaganda. But what

613
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: you've done is you've done the intellectual excavation of showing

614
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 1: chapter and verse. You've identified her errors and her mis

615
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: portrayals and her distortions. And you have not only done that,

616
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 1: but on the positive side, I think you've brought out

617
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:57,479
Speaker 1: the unexpected aspects of Puritan society and also shown how

618
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: those aspects aren't just incident. Hey, the Puritans were very

619
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: tolerant people who didn't want to force their views. You've

620
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: shown that that actually grows right out of Puritan theology itself.

621
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,359
Speaker 1: They are, you can almost say, theologically compelled not to

622
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 1: do that. And all of this is in your book

623
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: called American Dystopia, The Handmade's Tale and Puritan History. Guys.

624
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 1: Follow Daniel Stein on Substack Denstein dot substack dot com,

625
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: the website Griffon Editions dot com, slash products slash American

626
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: Dash Dystopia. Daniel, thank you very much for joining me.

627
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me.

628
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,319
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629
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630
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631
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632
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Speaker 2: The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians the revival of

670
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671
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,879
Speaker 4: The nation of Israel is a resurrected nation. What if

672
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Speaker 4: there was going to be a resurrection.

673
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 2: Of another people, an enemy people of Israel? The Dragon's Prophecy.

674
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Speaker 2: Watch it now or by the DVD at the Dragonsprophecyfilm

675
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Speaker 2: dot com.

676
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:33,240
Speaker 1: Picking up from yesterday, I'm going to develop an argument

677
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 1: for life after death that is rooted in the mainstream

678
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:41,359
Speaker 1: of Western philosophy. And my guide is none other than

679
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 1: the atheist YEP atheist philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer. Now, Schopenhauer was

680
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 1: the first great philosopher in the West to be an

681
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: outspoken atheist. Others like Hobbes and Hume and Deidero they

682
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 1: rejected God, but they never explicitly admitted to being atheists.

683
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: Schopenhauer begins a tradition of I'm going to call it

684
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 1: public atheism in the nineteenth century. It continues with Nietzsche, Heidiger,

685
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: Sart and others, of course in the twentieth century. Schopenhauer

686
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,280
Speaker 1: was a very odd fellow. He was born in Germany,

687
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: one of the richest families in Germany. He was a

688
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 1: pessimist and his outlook an elitist, a little bit of

689
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 1: a misogynist, also a reactionary. But his philosophy begins it

690
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 1: takes off from the starting point of Immanuel Kant, but

691
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 1: with important contrast with Kan. Kant was a kind of

692
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: a dry, mechanical writer. Schopenhauer's prose is vibrant, has memorable

693
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 1: turns of phrase, is always worth reading.

694
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 4: And.

695
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,879
Speaker 1: So for me it was quite a discovery to come

696
00:40:55,880 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 1: across the philosophy of Schopenhauer. He was a man of

697
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: immense philosophical and moral seriousness. He had a huge impact

698
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 1: on people, not just in philosophy, but also in the arts,

699
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: people like Nietzsche, the composer Richard Wagner, later in the

700
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 1: twentieth century, Ludwig Wittgenstein, and Schopenhower's whole reputation rests on

701
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: a single book, which he published at a young age.

702
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 1: It's called The World as Will and Idea, and in

703
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:33,959
Speaker 1: it says Schopenhauer not rather modestly, or really immodestly. He says,

704
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 1: I'm going to provide quote, the real solution of the

705
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 1: enigma of the world. I'm going to solve basically the

706
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 1: human problem in this book. Now, even though Schopenhauer has

707
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 1: had this huge influence, he's not that well known. Most

708
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 1: people couldn't even say what he believed. He's not widely taught,

709
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 1: certainly not as widely as people like Machiavelli or Locke

710
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: or Rousseau or even for that matter, Kant. Kant is

711
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 1: not very well taught either. People refer to him, but

712
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 1: it's very odd. You have the greatest philosopher in the

713
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 1: Western world since Plato, by wide acknowledgment, and yet the

714
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:17,240
Speaker 1: ordinary educated person in the West, particularly in America, couldn't

715
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: tell you the first thing about what Kant or Schopenhauer,

716
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: for that matter, believed. Now, the importance of Kant and

717
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 1: Schopenhauer is that they take something that is a foundational

718
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 1: belief in the West and they challenge it, and they

719
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: challenge it so in such a startling way that even

720
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: today we have a little trouble grasping what they are saying,

721
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:49,359
Speaker 1: because this inborn assumption, this kind of innate belief, is

722
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 1: so strong in our minds that it's difficult to dislodge,

723
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 1: even though reason says that this belief is quite insecure

724
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 1: now for at least a couple of centuries. The prevailing

725
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 1: outlook philosophical outlook, but also I would say common sensical

726
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 1: outlook in the West is sort of empirical realism. So

727
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 1: what is empirical realism. Well, it's the idea that empirical,

728
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 1: by the way, just refers to experience, and realism simply

729
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: means there's a real world out there, and we come

730
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: to know it objectively through our senses and through scientific

731
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:35,760
Speaker 1: testing and observation. So this is sometimes called the correspondence

732
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: theory of truth. Why because there's a presumed and let's

733
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 1: dwell for a moment on the word presumed, presumed means

734
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: we are guessing. Presume means we assume. Presume means we're

735
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,839
Speaker 1: taking it for granted. And in philosophy, whenever you take

736
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 1: something for granted, you always want to be very careful.

737
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 1: What are you taking for granted? Can the thing that

738
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 1: you're taking for granted? Really be taken for granted? So

739
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: the presumed correspondence here is between the real world on

740
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:11,359
Speaker 1: the one hand, and our sensory and intellectual apprehension of

741
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: it on the other. Now, smart people know that sometimes

742
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 1: your senses will get it wrong. You know, you're in

743
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,399
Speaker 1: a desert and you see a mirage, sticks look bent

744
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 1: in water, So your senses can sometimes fool you. But

745
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 1: making allowance for all that, most people believe well like

746
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 1: with those exceptions, Yes, our senses are stenographers. They give

747
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:39,760
Speaker 1: us a reliable and accurate picture of reality, and modern

748
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 1: science is based on that too. Here's biologist Francis Quick.

749
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 1: There is an outside world that is largely independent of

750
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: our observing it, and we can find out about it,

751
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 1: and science can find out about it. He says, quote

752
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 1: by using our senses and the operations of our brain,

753
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 1: we get the same thing. From physicist Stephen Weinberg, biologist EO. Wilson,

754
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: and Wilson even says if empiricism is disproved, the discovery

755
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: would be quite simply the most consequential in human history.

756
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 1: So now what we're going to do is take up

757
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 1: that challenge, and we're going to question this idea of

758
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 1: empirical realism, and I'm going to show that it rests

759
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: on a dubious, in fact, on an irrational foundation. So

760
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: let me give you a couple of empirical observations. Here's one. Look,

761
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 1: there's the Empire State Building. Here's another one, Hey, can

762
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 1: you pass the butter? Here's another one. Just take in

763
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 1: that ocean air. These are three experiential observations. Now, the

764
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:49,759
Speaker 1: question I'm going to ask you is a difficult one

765
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 1: for you to think about. We don't think about these

766
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: things because we do them instinctively. Try to ask yourself,

767
00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 1: where are these objects that you are experiencing located? You're

768
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: attempted to answer. The butter is right there on the table,

769
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: the ocean air is, well, it's all around me. And

770
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 1: as for the Empire State Building, I'm standing on thirty

771
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,919
Speaker 1: fifth Street in New York and Fifth Avenue, and there

772
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 1: it is right in front of me. Now, let's slow

773
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:28,839
Speaker 1: down that process of apprehending these things, the butter, the air,

774
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 1: the Empire State Building and ask a little bit more

775
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 1: probing question, how do you actually experience the Empire State Building?

776
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: Does the Empire State Building itself like jump out of

777
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: the ground and go inside your head and that's how

778
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:49,280
Speaker 1: you experience it? No, it isn't so, since the Empire

779
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: State Building is over there and you're over here, how

780
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 1: do you in fact experience the Empire State Building? And

781
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 1: the answer is you experience it by creating in your

782
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:07,319
Speaker 1: mind a picture of the Empire State Building, and then

783
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: you are arriving at the conclusion that that picture is

784
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 1: in fact a true and accurate resemblance of the Empire

785
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 1: State Building. To repeat, the Empire State Building doesn't enter

786
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 1: your head, but the picture is in your head, or

787
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 1: more accurately, the picture is in your mind. And so

788
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 1: this is happening to us all the time, and it

789
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:33,799
Speaker 1: happens with all our senses. By the way, it doesn't

790
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 1: just happen with our eyes. Although the example I'm using

791
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 1: has to do with seeing the Empire State Building, what

792
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 1: I'm getting at is that people just kind of assume

793
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 1: that if I quote see something out there, and I

794
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 1: make a picture in my head of it. The picture

795
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 1: is an accurate representation, or maybe transcript is a good

796
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 1: word of the thing in itself. And this is a

797
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 1: mighty big assumption. This is a huge memory used earlier

798
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 1: the word you presume. This is actually a huge presumption.

799
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 1: And the first person to see this was in fact

800
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: not Kant and not Schopenhauer. It was the English philosopher

801
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 1: George Berkeley. And Berkeley is kind of famous in his

802
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 1: own way. The University of California at Berkeley is named

803
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 1: after him, the town of Berkeley is named after him.

804
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 1: But most people don't really know what Berkeley believed, and

805
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: in fact, if they knew what he believed, they would

806
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 1: have trouble believing it. So here's what Berkeley has to say.

807
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: What Berkeley has to say is that all our experience

808
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 1: of the world comes through our perceptions, meaning through our senses,

809
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 1: the sense of sight, of hearing, of touch, and so on.

810
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 1: And if we really think about it and we ask

811
00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:01,800
Speaker 1: ourselves what do we have? What do we know? We

812
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 1: know those perceptions, that's all that we know. We have

813
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 1: pictures in our mind, we have impressions of what it

814
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 1: is like to touch and feel something. We have an

815
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 1: impression again in our mind of what it's like to

816
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: hear sounds, and all of this, says Berkeley, is going

817
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:26,400
Speaker 1: on in our mind. In fact, it's the only place

818
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 1: where it could go on. And we always assume that

819
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 1: there's like a freestanding reality outside of ourselves, separate from

820
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 1: our mind, and we go that our mind is merely copying,

821
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 1: it's replicating, it's duplicating, this external reality. But says Berkeley,

822
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:46,799
Speaker 1: if we really are honest with ourselves, we have to

823
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: admit we cannot experience this external reality outside of our minds.

824
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 1: We cannot experience it separate from our minds. It is

825
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 1: experienced by our minds and in our minds. And if

826
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 1: somebody were to really press us and say, hey, Denesh,

827
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 1: you have in your mind a picture of the Empire

828
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 1: state building, and perhaps you have other sensations about the

829
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,319
Speaker 1: Empire state building. But even those sensations, even if you

830
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:21,399
Speaker 1: touch it, even if you smell it, all those sensations

831
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,439
Speaker 1: are in fact being registered in your mind. And now

832
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 1: you're assuming that separate from your mind, there is an

833
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 1: empire state building out there of which your mental impression

834
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 1: is a sort of duplicate. And Berkeley's point is startling

835
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 1: and simple. And Berkeley goes, you're assuming that your mind

836
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 1: is making copies of some real world original. And yet,

837
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:56,879
Speaker 1: says Berkeley, you've never experienced the original in itself. You've

838
00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:01,320
Speaker 1: only experienced the copy, because that's what your mind gives

839
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:04,799
Speaker 1: rise to. Your mind gives rise to a picture of

840
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:08,359
Speaker 1: the Empire state building. Now, in normal life, you could say,

841
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 1: you know, if somebody draws the picture, you could say, well,

842
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:13,240
Speaker 1: I can, I can sort of see if the picture

843
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 1: is a good picture. Let's say it's a picture of Danesh.

844
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 1: I'm going to put the picture alongside Danesh. We have

845
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: the picture, we have the real Dnesh. We can compare

846
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 1: the two. But if you think about it, our sensory

847
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 1: experience is not like that. We have a picture. We

848
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 1: assume the picture is of some other freestanding reality. But

849
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 1: says Berkeley, we don't have the reality. We only have

850
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:40,880
Speaker 1: the picture. And therefore, says Berkeley, if you want to

851
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,760
Speaker 1: be empirically honest, if you want to just ask yourself,

852
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:48,400
Speaker 1: what is it experientially that you have. You have the perception,

853
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: you have the impressions, but you don't have the reality

854
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 1: that quote corresponds to those impressions. In other words, says Berkeley,

855
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:02,799
Speaker 1: what we all take to be the real world, which

856
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 1: is an external world separate from our senses. Berkeley goes,

857
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:10,360
Speaker 1: where is it? I see my impression of it, You

858
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 1: have your impression of it. But that's all we have.

859
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:17,799
Speaker 1: We have our impressions. Our whole life is these a

860
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 1: collection of these impressions. And we can relate the impressions

861
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 1: the one to the other. But if somebody asks us

862
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: to produce that duplicate reality that these impressions are supposed

863
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 1: to be impressions of, we are hard pressed to do it.

864
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 1: And so what you have with Berkeley, we'll pick this

865
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 1: up the next time, is a just a devastating empiricist

866
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:48,399
Speaker 1: attack on empiricism. It is a devastating attack on the

867
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:55,480
Speaker 1: idea of some hypothetical, presumed, made up, invented, non empirical,

868
00:52:55,960 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 1: non verifiable quote real world. And we, again are so

869
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 1: used to taking it for granted that it never occurs

870
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:10,319
Speaker 1: to us to question the existence. Again, Berkeley is not

871
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:14,919
Speaker 1: questioning the existence of our impressions. He's not questioning whether

872
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 1: we have the experience. What he's questioning is whether that

873
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:23,960
Speaker 1: experience is the experience of some kind of duplicate world

874
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 1: of which our experience is merely making copies. He's saying,

875
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 1: we assume that our experience functions like a Xerox machine

876
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:36,320
Speaker 1: of sorts, or a camera. It keeps taking snapshots of reality, reality, reality, reality,

877
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:38,320
Speaker 1: And Berkeley goes, wait a minute. At the end of

878
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 1: the day, you have a bunch of snapshots. There is

879
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 1: no reality to which you can compare them, because that

880
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:51,359
Speaker 1: reality so called is nothing more than more snapshots. So

881
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 1: this is a difficult idea to grasp philosophically, but it's

882
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 1: a very important idea, and we'll see next time how

883
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 1: this idea is taking it up by philosophers like Kant

884
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:06,840
Speaker 1: and Schopenhauer to point to a very interesting pathway to

885
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 1: discovering a world behind the world. We'll take that up

886
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:12,879
Speaker 1: next time.

887
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 2: Subscribe to the Dinesh de SUSA podcast on Apple, Google,

888
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:28,320
Speaker 2: and Spotify, or watch on Rumble YouTube and Salemnow dot com.