1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: Christian highlights the way God is working in the world 6 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to 8 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this 9 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm joined today by Roger Ross. 10 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 1: He's the author of a new book called Kind of Christian. 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 1: From Curious to Serious About Jesus. He also does a 12 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: lot with consulting with pastors and churches, and he's here 13 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:46,599 Speaker 1: today to talk about what it looks like to go 14 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: from curious to serious about Jesus. So, Roger, welcome to 15 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: the program. It's good to have you. 16 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 2: Thank you, James. It's my pleasure. 17 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, So tell us just a little bit. This book 18 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: obviously comes from somewhere. I'm always interested in where why 19 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: authors write what they write. What prompted this in your 20 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: life and your ministry that you saw this book as 21 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: being necessary for the church. 22 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 2: Well, for most of my life I was a real pastor, 23 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:17,119 Speaker 2: serving churches in a variety of places. But more recently 24 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 2: I'm serving now as a coaching consultant, and I spent 25 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 2: a lot of time talking with pastors and adjunct class 26 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 2: in a seminary. So I talked with people that are 27 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 2: on their way to becoming pastors, and we would often 28 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 2: get into these conversations about discipleship. They say, you know, 29 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 2: church membership is just cutting it. What does it mean 30 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 2: to be a disciple? And I would tell them about 31 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 2: what we had experienced in the last church I served, 32 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 2: which is in Stringfield, Illinois. I realized we kept having 33 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 2: people showing up and asking questions about our mission. We 34 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 2: talk about our mission in our worship services and small 35 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 2: groups and like, you know, to make disciples of Jesus 36 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 2: Christ for the trend. And people would say over and 37 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 2: over again, newcomers, I really like that whole time transformation 38 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 2: of the world thing, But what's the disciple? And we're like, well, 39 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 2: everybody knows who the disciple is. You know a little 40 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 2: of this, So it's a little of that, you know, 41 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 2: on what we see one and you know this happened 42 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 2: so many times it got embarrassing because we realized we 43 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 2: didn't even have a good answer. So final that I 44 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 2: got the other passions together and said, look, we can't 45 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: keep getting this. This is ridiculous. We have to call it. 46 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 2: So this is very good question. So I said, how 47 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 2: hard could this be? Let's just you know, spend three 48 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 2: weeks and knock it out. Eight months later, we finally 49 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 2: had an answer that we could bring to our leaders 50 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 2: and have them wrestle with it as well, because we 51 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 2: had to spend some time just going into our bets 52 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 2: and searching the scriptures and coming up with a decent 53 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 2: answer that really helped people to get the arms around 54 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 2: what is a disciple? And by the time we've finally 55 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 2: got that leadership and the like we that became our 56 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 2: discipleship process. I mean, we didn't have not only a 57 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 2: definition of disciple, where did we have a discipleship process 58 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 2: one to become one. So it was it was kind 59 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 2: of a painful experience really to go through that to 60 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 2: realize we weren't administering to people in a way that 61 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 2: would help newcomers, newcomers not just to the church, newcomers 62 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 2: to the faith, people that were spiritually curious on the 63 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 2: outside looking in find a way to actually make a 64 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 2: deep connection. 65 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: So when you think about discipleship, we've talked about discipleship 66 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: number of times on the show, just interested to see 67 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: what you guys came up with. 68 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 3: What is discipleship? 69 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: How did you how did you define it, how did 70 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: you think about it, and what did some of that 71 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: process entail. You don't have to give away all the 72 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: secret sauce necessarily, but you know, give us a sense 73 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: of where you guys landed. 74 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, we we kind of looked at globally what does 75 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 2: disciple look like? And we thought, you know, really Jesus 76 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 2: talks about loving God, so perhaps that would be you know, 77 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 2: to launch community, to find ways to connect with others, 78 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 2: and then also to unleash compassions. So those were the 79 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 2: three broad areas that we talked about. And the more 80 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,919 Speaker 2: that we looked at that, the more we realized, you know, 81 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 2: there's some deeper marks of a disciple that really kind 82 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 2: of described in a more specific and way what a 83 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 2: disciples should look like. And they kind of coalesced around 84 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 2: a bunch of G words, and eventually we came up 85 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 2: with six g's sorry, So they became our G six 86 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 2: networks and here are the g's glory, Grace, group, growth, giftedness, 87 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 2: and generosity. And we felt that that those g if 88 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 2: if they had both an inward experience to get an 89 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 2: outward expression, would be a great example of what a 90 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 2: fully orbed disciple, what we called a deeply devoted disciple, 91 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 2: would look like. Now we also want to come up 92 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 2: with a sentence like just the one sentence definition. You know, 93 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 2: I love the definition of discipleship that Dallas Willard came 94 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 2: up with sometime ago. He says, you know, discipleship is 95 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 2: the process of becoming who Jesus would be if he 96 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 2: were you. 97 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 3: I think that's great, But yeah. 98 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 2: That's about discipleship. We wanted to talk about, well, what 99 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 2: is a disciple? And this may not be the best 100 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 2: definition of the world, it was one that worked for us. 101 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 2: A disciple is someone who loves Jesus above all else 102 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 2: and loves the world as Jesus does. And if you 103 00:05:55,960 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 2: could get something in a one sentence in capsule, it 104 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 2: can help people have a true north. They keep heading in. 105 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: That on the sixth marks you mentioned, the first one 106 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: was glory. Dive a little bit deeper into that one. 107 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: What is glory when you when you think about what 108 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: does that one mean? 109 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 2: Right, glory, that's a great question. Glory is really all 110 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 2: about how you encounter God when we when we enter 111 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 2: into God's presence, we encounter the fullness of who God is. 112 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 2: And you know, glory is. I didn't really realize this 113 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 2: until I got more into writing this book, how important 114 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 2: glory is in the scriptures. I mean, it's just mentioned 115 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 2: hundreds and hundreds of times throughout the Strictures. When you 116 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 2: start paying more attention to the word glory, you start 117 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 2: seeing it talking all over the place. And so it's 118 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 2: the way in which we actually experience God in a 119 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 2: visceral way, you know, it's it's it's when we come 120 00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 2: into the press. Whenever we sense the presents of God, 121 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 2: we're uncounting the God and that's what really changes us 122 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 2: from the inside out. You know. It's good to think 123 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 2: the right way about things, and I love this podcast 124 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 2: the whole concept thinking Christian. But in addition to thinking Christian, 125 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 2: we need to experience what it's like to be in 126 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 2: God's presence, which transforms our very being from the inside out. 127 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 2: That's what glory is designed to be. So I use 128 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 2: a few different ways daily solitude, Like for instance, today 129 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 2: I spent half an hour or so just in quiet, 130 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 2: meditative prayer along with God, so that the presence of 131 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 2: God could seep into my otherwise very distracted life. Yeah, 132 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 2: and then ongoing conversation, like just an ongoing conversation with 133 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 2: God through the day. You know, Brother Lawrence talked about 134 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 2: this and is a book the practice of the Presence 135 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 2: of God and just developing that inner chapel of the 136 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 2: heart where at any time of the day or even 137 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 2: night you could go into your own chapel and carry 138 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 2: on that conversation with God. And then lastly there just 139 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 2: be a daily review. This is something that comes from 140 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 2: Ignacious of Iola who put together that examine where you 141 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 2: spend a few minutes every day just examining where is 142 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 2: it that God has been present and active in my life? 143 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 2: Where can I identify the love, faith and hope that's 144 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 2: coming into my life and bringing me versus those times 145 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 2: when I feel like God is nowhere and there's a 146 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 2: sense of desolation and I've drawn away from the presence. 147 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 2: Spending a little bit of time every day just reviewing 148 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 2: your day of watching the game tape, so to seek 149 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 2: so that you can sense where God was drawing closer 150 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 2: and you felt like God was further away from you. 151 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 2: I can tell you a lot about how you're experiencing 152 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 2: or having a lack of experience of the glory of God. 153 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: As you see people do this, and maybe as you 154 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: do it yourself. But also I would think, you know, 155 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 1: as you watch people kind of go through this process 156 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: and they're trying to cultivate this understanding of an encounter 157 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: with God in their daily life, how do they you know, 158 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: how are we oftentimes I'll call it, I'll use the 159 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 1: phrase God as a sociological actor. In other words, he's 160 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: involved in our lives on a social level. Every day 161 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: we're encountering him. We need to be recognizing him as 162 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 1: the most infinitely relevant actor and factor that will ever encounter. 163 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 1: And so how do you see just everyday folks who 164 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: are practicing these disciplines start to understand and sense God's presence, 165 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: be able to identify God's presence. It's more acutely as 166 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: they go forward, not just looking back, which I think 167 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: is a great exercise, but also just in that do 168 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 1: they start to develop almost like a I don't know, 169 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: an exercise. We call it a kinesthesis, right, like, you know, 170 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: you you get a certain rhythm and a sense of 171 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: where the other players are on the court when you're 172 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: you know, when you're on a team playing basketball or 173 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: on a team playing football, and it's almost just sort 174 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: of supernatural. Do you see people developing that sort of 175 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 1: relationship with God where they now sense him where He 176 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: actually is in their lives on a day to day 177 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: basis going forward. 178 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's precisely the kind of have over time, the 179 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 2: practice these disciplines in a regular way over time for 180 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 2: that to take place, and you don't you don't have 181 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 2: that kind of relational connection with your teammates in a 182 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 2: basketball teamball team after the practice idea, you have to 183 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 2: go through much of a season, maybe more than one season, 184 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 2: before you actually have that kind of deep connection with 185 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 2: others and are aware of people without even paying attention 186 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 2: to And that happens. I find that happens in the same 187 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 2: people's lives. Are happening more in my life as I 188 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 2: just practice the disciplines. You know, when you practice them 189 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 2: validating you see why Christians for centuries have done these 190 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 2: kinds of things, because they do bring you more into 191 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 2: the business of God and they increase your conscious awareness 192 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,559 Speaker 2: of God. I mean, so much of spirituality is simply 193 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 2: you know, turn off the switch annoyingly, so much of 194 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 2: our lives and you know, so we'll we'll do our devotions. 195 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 2: I usually have those experiences about all time I do 196 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 2: my devotions. In the morning, I might spend part Christs 197 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 2: and then I would to be so immersed in all 198 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 2: the stuff they needed to happen with regard to ministry 199 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 2: over the course of the day. At the end of 200 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 2: the day, I wondered if I was still Christian like 201 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: I like Loft Track that in the midst of all 202 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 2: that I got so attached to the things of ministry, 203 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 2: whatever they were, that I had stop paying attention being 204 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 2: aware of the presence of God. So I actually changed 205 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 2: the way that out things much later in my life 206 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 2: and ministry by asking a different question at the end 207 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 2: of the day. I know that my s gott that 208 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 2: you have was all about it. I loved that podcast 209 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 2: by the ways before we did on. But yeah, that 210 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:52,959 Speaker 2: I used to ask myself inadvertently when I got on 211 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 2: the brain is what do I have to do? And 212 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 2: I knew I was asking myself the question because uh 213 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 2: it as I was standing from the bathroom mirror getting 214 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 2: ready to like, I just started having these things pop 215 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 2: up on my life. I got to call that person, 216 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 2: I got to take care of preparing for this meeting, 217 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 2: and all that stuff was coming up, and I kept realizing, 218 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 2: you know, I don't even remember ask any question, but 219 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 2: all these things got and that was the unspoken question 220 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 2: in my head. Well guess what when I realized that 221 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 2: all those things basically just had to do with work 222 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 2: and that was my job, it really didn't. I was 223 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 2: spiritualizing it and said, well, let's has to do with church. Well, 224 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 2: actually that's just my work, you know. Is there's something 225 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,719 Speaker 2: else that maybe I should be doing as I'm going 226 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 2: to do with my relationship with God? Yeah, So I 227 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 2: changed the question. Instead of saying what do I have 228 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 2: to do today? My question is now what do I 229 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 2: have to do to live in the presence of God today? 230 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 2: That that question gets a lot different answers than just 231 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 2: fam I need to send. 232 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's a that's a really 233 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: good reframing. 234 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 3: I appreciate that question. 235 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: I think the as I've talked to people over the years, 236 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: the pushback I always get when I say something similar 237 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: to that right, you know, how do we make decisions 238 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: so that only God gets the glory? 239 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 3: Right? 240 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: How do we how do we go about our daily 241 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: lives so that God is We recognize God's active presence 242 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: and are prompted to move as He moves. What you 243 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: what I think people are afraid is going to happen 244 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: is that you essentially get nothing done. Right, You've become 245 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: some sort of contemplative monk uh and and you're you're 246 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: not actually anymore able to lead an organization. I think 247 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: even in my work with organizations and pastors over the years, 248 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: and you start talking like this, they start saying, yeah, 249 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: but the work still has to get done, and so 250 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: how do you how do you help people. 251 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 3: Think through that aspect of this? 252 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: How do you how do you help them understand that 253 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: the work is still going to get done, that you're 254 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: not abandoning the work. What you're really doing is reframing 255 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: maybe what the work does or how they should approach 256 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: the work that they're doing. 257 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 2: So that's a wonderful way to talk about it, reframing 258 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 2: the way in which the work it's done. But I 259 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 2: want to talk about it another way of thinking about 260 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 2: it as well. If you ever run across Thomas Telly's 261 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 2: classic book, Testament of Devotion. It's a short little book, 262 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 2: but you know that I've read this many many years ago. 263 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 2: It's just because he talked about essentially living life on 264 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 2: two levels things. One level is where we're doing all 265 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 2: the stuff that we have to do, the tasks and 266 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 2: the area made ones in, the phone calls and that 267 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 2: kind of stuff. It's just the look. But the other 268 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 2: level is a level of worship and devotion, which is 269 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 2: of your part. I'm going to go that you can 270 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 2: continue to be in a place of worship and federation 271 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 2: while you're doing all these kinds of activities that are 272 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 2: more on the service simultaneously. You don't have to do 273 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 2: one for the other. That was freeing concept to me. 274 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 2: I've never heard anyone talk about that previously, and so 275 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 2: that's what I've been If I can't say I'm a 276 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 2: master of this, I've been experimenting with for thirty years 277 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 2: so that my life would be more an example of 278 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 2: someone who's living in the presence of God who also 279 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 2: happens to be doing a lot of stuff. 280 00:16:54,920 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, okay, Well let me circle back around to 281 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: the six marks, because I'm kind of interested in how 282 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,199 Speaker 1: you guys think about pulling all these together. 283 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 3: It gets tempting. 284 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 1: After I hear you describe glory and you list it first, 285 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: I think that's probably intentional. Right, Glory is a really 286 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: sort of an all encompassing concept in a lot of ways. 287 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 3: How do you think of the six marks together? 288 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 1: So we often hear a lot of times you know 289 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: there's this importance of community and relational experiences that we 290 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: get in discipleship, and I agree, I think that's really crucial. 291 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: But I oftentimes what I sort of see happening in 292 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: different Christian communities is we're going to focus on the 293 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 1: community aspect and the group aspect and relational aspect, but 294 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,880 Speaker 1: we're going to make that less theological than really it 295 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: could be. Right, We're not going to draw God into 296 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: these experiences in the way that we could. We're going 297 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: to get together and watch football, maybe talk about Jesus occasionally, 298 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: but really we're just getting together in form and relationships. 299 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: And so when I think about those different g's that 300 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 1: you listed, the you had the group I think which 301 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: would probably connect into the community aspect. How do you 302 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: how do you coach people? How do you think about 303 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: keeping all of these together intention not necessarily as a hierarchy. 304 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: First start with Glory, then go to Grace, then go 305 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 1: you know, but sort of as a whole big ball 306 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 1: of g's that you're you're sort of practicing all together. 307 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 2: That's a wonderful question, and that's one of the things 308 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 2: that was difficult in writing them. When you fight anything, 309 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 2: you have to do it in a linear faction. 310 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 3: That's right. 311 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, And this is not a linear deal. I mean, 312 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 2: someone they gave me the metaphor, and I just really 313 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 2: originated with thistticulum. It's more like the ingredients of a 314 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 2: cap those six with them in at different times and 315 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:54,360 Speaker 2: in different measures to some extent, But you need all 316 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 2: the ingredients to be able to come up with a 317 00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 2: cake that actually really tastes it, gotcha. So Glory did 318 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 2: come first for some of the reasons that you mentioned 319 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 2: and some of the things that I spoke about as well. 320 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 2: But uh, you need all six of them. Yeah, there's 321 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 2: an option gee. And the ways in which you're going 322 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 2: to insert those yees into your life or incorporate them 323 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 2: into your life will be different for different people, and 324 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 2: they'll they'll come at different times in different fashions. But 325 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 2: they still need to come something. Yeah, so it's hard. 326 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 2: I think you can come. There is some connection between them. 327 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 2: Uh glory when you have an encounter the presence of 328 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 2: m hmm. Generally speaking, that's going to be your first 329 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 2: taste of grace. Yeah, you're can have some what it 330 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 2: means to be loved by God and condition. That's a 331 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 2: powerful thing. And then course great is just like Laurie, 332 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 2: I mean, you want to the experience, but you want 333 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 2: to live outwardly express it. Yeah. So for both of 334 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 2: us that we want to early experience the grace that 335 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 2: he offers us to forgiveness of our sense, the freedom 336 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 2: from sin and new life that he offers, we want 337 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 2: to exchange that for that other people. That's the way 338 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 2: it's designed to it. Yeah, same same is true with 339 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 2: the group. I mean, we want to find ourselves in 340 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 2: the community, we want to belong, but we also want 341 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 2: to offer that, I mean to other people. 342 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 1: So yeah, I could almost see group. I would say, 343 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: maybe the way I've thought about it up to this 344 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: point in my life, group and giftedness and even group 345 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 1: giftedness and generosity seem very naturally together. Right if you 346 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: had group, but you didn't have a sense of giftedness 347 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: and you didn't have any generosity. You start to lose now, hospitality, 348 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 1: you start to lose sort of coordination that happens within 349 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: the Body of Christ amongst the members, right, and you 350 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: just have sort of a blob of people together. 351 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 3: You know. 352 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: It's not like we're not going to a concert or 353 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: a Body of Christ. And so the group is it 354 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: almost requires that level of coordination and giftedness. 355 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, actually, what do we grow? I mean 356 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 2: most of the time we grow in relationship with other people. 357 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,439 Speaker 2: We're learning from other people, you know, we're doing the 358 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 2: iron sharpens iron thing. I mean, growth happens in the 359 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 2: context of root. That's why I actually but with regard 360 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 2: to an order, that's why I put group before growth. Yeah, 361 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 2: because growth kind of all out by yourself, you know, 362 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 2: with a book and alone with God. It's not that 363 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 2: there isn't a dimension to that. But we all the 364 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 2: things that we know are things that we know because 365 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 2: other people have taught us. Yeah, it's a group community experience. 366 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. 367 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, So when you think about all those where does 368 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit kind of come in? Obviously I'd see 369 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: how the Holy Spirit could come in a number of 370 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: different ways, you know, giftedness, grace, glory, and particularly growth. 371 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: But how do you infuse that process of discipleship. 372 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 3: With the Holy Spirit. 373 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: You know, as you see people going through these transformative changes, 374 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: what sense do they have that of the Holy Spirit's 375 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: presence within them? And even the Holy spirits work within 376 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: them and among them. 377 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 2: The Holy Spirit is the prime mover in the entire 378 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 2: work of discipleship. So whatever g you're working on doesn't 379 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 2: really matter. The Holy is the one that's helping it 380 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 2: all to take place on a deeper level. If it's 381 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 2: just a matter of human effort, then we've missed the 382 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 2: entire boats. That's not the way that God works in 383 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 2: our lives. So with each of the g's, let me 384 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 2: give an example with say growth. With growth, the Holy 385 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 2: Spirit is minds and open our hearts to the things 386 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 2: that God wants to teach us. Now those things may 387 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 2: come from a book, it may come from a worship 388 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 2: that may come teaching, or it may come from relationships 389 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 2: that we have and experiences that we're going through that 390 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 2: could be difficult or painful experiences. God can use all 391 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 2: of those things and lots more to work with the 392 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 2: Holy Spirit reveal things to us that we hadn't seen 393 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 2: previously and therefore kind of teach us through the sometimes 394 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 2: the hard knocks of life and sometimes to life. It 395 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 2: doesn't matter what's happening to us. The Holy Spirit can 396 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,479 Speaker 2: use whatever this particular incident is to be a teaching 397 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 2: point for us. This happens to me more frankly where 398 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 2: i'll i'll be so much and all that was for me, 399 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 2: Like I'm sure other people are picking up here, but 400 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,959 Speaker 2: that part that was for me. I need to pay attention. 401 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 2: The Holy Spirit is teaching me about something that I 402 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 2: need to pay in my life. Yeah, that's an example 403 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 2: the way the Holy Spirit works in each of the 404 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 2: g's and all the different parts of all life. 405 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: So all this sort of, I guess, gets down into 406 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 1: sort of. 407 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 3: The brass tacks, how does it work? Sort of feel right? 408 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: And so when we talk about the Holy Spirit and 409 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: we talk about sort of yielding the Holy Spirit, we 410 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,439 Speaker 1: talk about the Holy Spirit as sort of pushing us 411 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,199 Speaker 1: into discipleship in some way, shape or form, guiding us 412 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 1: into discipleship in some way, shape or form. How do 413 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 1: you help someone sort of start to unwind. 414 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 3: What we might call. 415 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: Cultural scripts to say, if I want to grow. I 416 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: have to help myself if I want to make things 417 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,919 Speaker 1: happen in my life. These are things now I have 418 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,360 Speaker 1: to engage in and I have to make happen, versus 419 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: what we often see in scripture, which is no, God's 420 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: really just asking you to come along for the ride, 421 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 1: to be faithful to him in a moment, and you're 422 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: never really sure what opportunities discipleship is really going to 423 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 1: open up for you to help you build the Kingdom 424 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: of God. In other words, the way I've often thought 425 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: of this is, if I have my agenda, discipleship could 426 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: certainly get in the way of my agenda. But if 427 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: I don't have my agenda, or if my agenda is 428 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: really aligned with hey, let's build the Kingdom of God today, now, 429 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 1: discipleship is always aligned with my agenda. And so how 430 00:25:54,920 --> 00:26:01,120 Speaker 1: do you help people sort of prepare themselves to I'll 431 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: use this phrase, how do you help people prepare to 432 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: lose something that they may really want as they're engaging 433 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: in discipleship and make the trade of Look, what you 434 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: really wanted, wasn't that great? What you're being given is amazing, 435 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: And so how do you help people make that leap? 436 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 1: What does that transformation sort of look like for people 437 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: as they go through this process. 438 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 2: So I really do think that is an issue that 439 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 2: many of us struggle with. We want to make it 440 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 2: happen rather than let it come. I mean, I'm gonna 441 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 2: make it happen. I have to fight against that tendency 442 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 2: in myself all the time because there's only a number 443 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 2: of where that actually is helpful and cases it works 444 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 2: against you, right, and certainly that's the case in the 445 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 2: spiritual life. I can't make it happen with them, right, 446 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 2: there are things that I can do to put myself 447 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 2: in the right position to be able to receive what 448 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 2: God wants to give to me. Make God do anything. 449 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 2: God is free the bedrock fundamental beliefs of the Christian 450 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 2: faith that God is free and able to act freely 451 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 2: at any time in an moment. And that's the case 452 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 2: only but in the world, in groups of people and cultures, 453 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,400 Speaker 2: you name it. So how is it that we make 454 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 2: ourselves available to God's choice to love us? Well, that's 455 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 2: the gift disciplines, right, the spiritual practices. Spiritual practices, when 456 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 2: we engage in them, are not designed to get God 457 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,239 Speaker 2: to do something for us, but rather to put us 458 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 2: in a place where we are open and ready to 459 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 2: receive what wants to do. It's a very different approach. 460 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 2: I mean, it's truly the flip side of make it come. 461 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 2: It is. Okay, Lord, here I in a position I 462 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 2: invite you to let come as I practice this discipline, 463 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,959 Speaker 2: as I engage in this spiritual practice. I'm going to 464 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 2: put myself in a position where I perceptive, ready, willing, 465 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 2: surrendered for you to do the kinds of things that 466 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 2: you have desired to do for your purposes, for your glory, 467 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 2: not for mine. Now you want to do what's best 468 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 2: for me. I believe I trust you for that. But 469 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 2: what I think is best for me and what you 470 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 2: think is best for me aren't always the same. And 471 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 2: putting myself in a place of surrender allows me to 472 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 2: be able to receive your good gifts, even if I 473 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 2: don't recognize them immediately as good. 474 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. 475 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: Do you find that people who are walking in though, 476 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: who are curious right about Jesus And you're saying, okay, 477 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: let's get serious about Jesus. There's a book I read. 478 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: It's by La Paul and she talks about these transformative 479 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: experiences and basically what she argues, is that there are 480 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 1: certain things that you can only know once you've experienced them. 481 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: She actually uses the example of a vampire. Let's say 482 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: add friends who are vampires and they explain what it's 483 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: like to be a vampire, and they're telling you all 484 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: about it. Her argument is, but you don't really know 485 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: until you actually let them turn you into a vampire. 486 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 3: You have no idea what it's like to be a vampire. 487 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 3: You can only have a sense of it. 488 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: And my gut is that people who are curious about 489 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: Jesus only have a sense of what it looks like 490 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: actually follow him until they start to do it. Like 491 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: this is not a you dip your toe in the 492 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: water and sort of yeah, I kind of get a 493 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: feel for it, and I'll decide whether I want to 494 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:07,719 Speaker 1: do it or not. You're either all in or you're 495 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: all out. Is that a how do you get people 496 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: who are curious about Jesus to get to that point 497 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: where they're serious about Jesus and really make some of 498 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: those transformative choices where there's really no going back. You've 499 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: trusted him on this one, you're recognizing what he did 500 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: for you, and now you're kind of all in. 501 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 2: Another great question I want to say to be in 502 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 2: with I've always loved stagely curious to people. Yeah, and 503 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 2: a church planter. I've served a pastor in a lot 504 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 2: of different capacities and serve pastors and church leaders and 505 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 2: non proper leaders and a likes of I'm always asking 506 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 2: them to be asking others about how are they engaging 507 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 2: with curious non Christian people. Look came from by kind 508 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 2: of folks. If we're not engaging in culture that way, 509 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 2: then we have completely lost the law. Jesus was phenomenal 510 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,479 Speaker 2: of this. He was the best ever at this and 511 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 2: so we as followers of Jesus also need to get 512 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 2: up on that ball and be good at this time. 513 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 2: And I think part of it is following the pattern 514 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 2: of Jesus. I mean, Jesus thought of questions right aashed 515 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 2: over three hundred questions in the Gospels. He asked a 516 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 2: lot of questions. He did so because he was engaging 517 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 2: and helping their curiosity to get peaked so that they 518 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 2: would want more. He also did an interesting combination that 519 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 2: we don't do much in our culture these days, but 520 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 2: at least in Western culture, and that is his direct One. Two. 521 00:31:55,440 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 2: Jesus would proclaim the gospel, and then he would the gospel. 522 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,239 Speaker 2: And you would always see these two put together. It 523 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 2: wasn't one or the other. Now, sometimes it wasn't in 524 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 2: the order. Sometimes demonstration would come first of it. It 525 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 2: was to proclamation some kind of explanation of the gospel, 526 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 2: or a declaration of the gospel followed by a demonstration. 527 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 2: You know, he would peel, would raise people from the dead, 528 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 2: he would drive out demons, he would bring about life 529 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 2: change in a person such that that would confirm and 530 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 2: corroborate the story that he was telling about who God 531 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 2: really is and how you can be in a relationship 532 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 2: with him. So, if be involved in that proclamation and 533 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 2: demonstration of ministry, whether on one basis or whether it's 534 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 2: in a larger group, it could be one to one, 535 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 2: one to few, one to many. But I think it 536 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 2: works in all those contexts. And in part, you know, 537 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 2: I'm not saying that we necessarily need to be involved 538 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 2: in being a miracle worker, and I'd always have those 539 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 2: kinds of gifts, right. However, we can be involved in 540 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 2: bringing healing to people's lives, conserving others. We can be 541 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 2: involved in bringing good over evil in other people's lives. 542 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 2: I don't care what kind of have You can be 543 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 2: involved in doing that on a broad scale, and you 544 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 2: can do that again, whether it's one on one, in 545 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 2: a small group or in a larger group. 546 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's helpful. 547 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: I think that gives a sense of you know, you're 548 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: giving people a picture. You're showing them, not just telling 549 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: them the gospel. You're showing them what's going on. You're 550 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 1: creating sort of a centripetal force that can draw them 551 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: into something and give them ways that they can almost 552 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: picture themselves being involved with it. 553 00:33:59,480 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 3: The sort of. 554 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 1: Experience they're going to have as they become more committed 555 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 1: members of the Body of Christ. It's an interesting dynamic. 556 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 1: I mean, I know this isn't the greatest analogy, but 557 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: some sort of As you were talking, one of the 558 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:16,839 Speaker 1: things that came to mind was, you know, the way 559 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: the old Temple structure and Tabernacle structure were put put 560 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: in place, you had sort of the Holy of Holies 561 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 1: where they're having this the priests or having this amazing 562 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: experience with God one time a year, and then you 563 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 1: go out in successive place and you don't ultimately have 564 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: the Court of the Gentiles, and part of what we 565 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:38,280 Speaker 1: see happening in Christ is really the Jews and the Gentiles. 566 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: You know, that separation is gone, and so you have 567 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: this whole coming together. But I also think that you know, 568 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 1: the gentiles who are sort of, you know, sort of 569 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,439 Speaker 1: mulling around the temple had to have been curious about 570 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: what's going on. They have to understand what's going on here. 571 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,319 Speaker 1: And so there is a proximity even in the Old 572 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 1: Testament as we look at some of these structures that 573 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 1: were set up where folks who are curious about what's 574 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 1: going on can actually be near it and try to 575 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: understand it and look in on it. And it just 576 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: strikes me that that is very similar to what you're 577 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: describing here, is that the people who are curious need 578 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: to be able to see sort of the way the 579 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 1: sausage is made right, and that this needs to be 580 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: a compelling operation that as we live it out, it 581 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 1: needs to look and feel really good, not perfect, but 582 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: it needs to be marked by these six things that 583 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: you're talking about and give people a real picture of 584 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: what it's going to look like to be a disciple 585 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: of Jesus. 586 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, let me give you one example of that. There 587 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 2: is a guy that is in a coaching group that 588 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,359 Speaker 2: I'm a part of, and he was sharing. We were 589 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 2: talking about excited, you know, where have you seen the 590 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 2: glory of God in your life recently? And we had 591 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,839 Speaker 2: a number of people share a variety of things having 592 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 2: to do with you know, family and connections they made 593 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 2: with their own son or daughter in their faith and 594 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 2: like and this and this guy who was really kind 595 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 2: of a assuming type of person recently retired, talked about 596 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:18,360 Speaker 2: how he had been serving in the local food pantries 597 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 2: are part of their church's chynistery. And this couple came 598 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 2: in were quite obviously and in conversation with them, he 599 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 2: found out that they were homeless. He had recently been 600 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 2: released from prison. Them were together, but they have been 601 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 2: staying out in the woods the night before and then 602 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 2: the woman had been bitten by a dog that morning, 603 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 2: had gone to the emergency room and they just showed up. 604 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 2: They had no clothes other than the clothes on their back. 605 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 2: You know, she was seriously wounded. They had no food, 606 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 2: they had no place to stay. Yeah, and he was like, well, 607 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 2: let me see what I can do to help you. Obviously, 608 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 2: he was able to provide some food for them. And 609 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,240 Speaker 2: he had some vow to give through the food pantry 610 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 2: to them. And then they also had some clothes, just 611 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 2: maybe one or two changes of clothes that they had available, 612 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 2: as well as a black they could put their stuff in. 613 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 2: They didn't even have that. And at the end of 614 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 2: this conversation with them, he felt led them and they 615 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,879 Speaker 2: had wonderful title of prayer, and then he felt led 616 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 2: to never done before. He said, now, if you have 617 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 2: any further issues, here's my phone number, give me a call. 618 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 2: And the next day the man of the couple gave 619 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,399 Speaker 2: him a call and said, you know, we appreciate everything 620 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 2: you've done for us, but we have no place to say, 621 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:57,879 Speaker 2: and we have no money. And he said, well where 622 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 2: are you right now? And they exchanged where the locations were, 623 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 2: and he said, okay, well and you can come to 624 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 2: my house. And he put this couple up. Now, he 625 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,280 Speaker 2: was a single guy living in a home by himself, 626 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,919 Speaker 2: but he didn't really know them. He took a real 627 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 2: chance here uh to into his home and then he 628 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:24,879 Speaker 2: talked with them and helped them, help help the man 629 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 2: to be able to find a job, help them to 630 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 2: be able to get some kind of transport transportation. So 631 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 2: he could get back and forth and take care of 632 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:36,439 Speaker 2: other needs that they have helped them in their relationship. Work, 633 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,320 Speaker 2: got some things in the relationship, and he acted really 634 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 2: much like a father to adult children, the kind of 635 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:48,359 Speaker 2: father that neither of them had ever had. Yeah, and 636 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my gosh, you like, we've got a 637 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 2: real Christian in our hands here. I mean, he shared 638 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 2: the story and you could have a pin drop on 639 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 2: carpet in that room. I mean, our eyes got wider, 640 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 2: our jaws was slacked, Like, oh my gosh, are you kiddyy? 641 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 2: You really did this? He says, Well, I had to 642 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 2: do it. God was calling me to do it, Like 643 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 2: who else was going to help them? It was me. 644 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:17,760 Speaker 2: I was the one. 645 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, And. 646 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 2: By the sheer and utter grace of God, he followed 647 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:27,720 Speaker 2: that call. That's an example of someone who is demonstrating 648 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:32,400 Speaker 2: the lower in unmistakable fashion, Like how can you not 649 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:34,799 Speaker 2: be attracted to that? I mean, just listening to him 650 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 2: till I've ever met the couple, I was attracted to that. 651 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 652 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,279 Speaker 2: So when we demonstrate the gospel, when we say the 653 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,240 Speaker 2: gospel before we put it this way, when we show 654 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 2: the gospel before we say it, it gives our words 655 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:50,880 Speaker 2: so much more power. 656 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, people tend to put that together exactly. 657 00:39:55,960 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 1: It's you have this concept in the book book, and 658 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 1: well we're getting close to time, so I want to 659 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: kind of end on this question. But you have this 660 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,680 Speaker 1: concept in the book called the river churches, and so 661 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:10,279 Speaker 1: I want you to talk a little bit about the 662 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,719 Speaker 1: river churches and how you how what you mean by that, 663 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: and then how might a church go about cultivating that? 664 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's a great question. The This is something 665 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:25,399 Speaker 2: that I learned from Larry Walchmere. I don't know if 666 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 2: you've run across him or not. He's a pastor out 667 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,920 Speaker 2: in the California area, and he talked about the difference 668 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 2: between the lake churches and river churches. Lake churches are 669 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 2: like bodies of water that don't move. You know, we've 670 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:39,399 Speaker 2: all been to the lake. 671 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I. 672 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 2: Have to go to lake. I mean, who doesn't want 673 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:44,760 Speaker 2: to go to lake. There are people that build houses 674 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 2: so they can have lake homes and be around the 675 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:51,160 Speaker 2: lake all the time, right, And Lake church much like that. 676 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,279 Speaker 2: They they want to draw people to the lake, so 677 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 2: they create more and more attractions for that and program 678 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 2: the activities and services and festivals and sports, leagues and 679 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,600 Speaker 2: all kinds of things, and everything has to happen at 680 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 2: the church building because that's where the lake is, and 681 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:11,720 Speaker 2: the whole goal is to grow the lake bigger. Yeah, 682 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 2: And to be honest with you, I was absolutely enamored 683 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 2: with that whole concept. I never knew that there was 684 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 2: any other kind of church growing up, and as a 685 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 2: young pastor, I was enamored with the Great Lakes. You know, 686 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,799 Speaker 2: these churches that were ten twenty thousand in a tennis Like, 687 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,759 Speaker 2: how on earth does that happen? Isn't that the And 688 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,239 Speaker 2: then I got introduced to this idea of a river church, 689 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:39,520 Speaker 2: which is quite different. So a river church is the 690 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 2: kind of church that people to find God and become 691 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:48,560 Speaker 2: a deeply devoted disciple. And as they are living out that, 692 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:55,640 Speaker 2: jumping into the current, the stream of the Holy Spirit 693 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:59,400 Speaker 2: working in and through that church, they are led downstream 694 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,879 Speaker 2: to carry Jesus to all the other folks that they 695 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 2: see downstream. That happens in a place and stays in 696 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:12,759 Speaker 2: that place, it's constantly flowing somewhere else. So ironically, river 697 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:18,799 Speaker 2: churches don't really care that much about the building, just 698 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 2: don't even have a building. They just meet in small 699 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 2: groups and communities around a particular area, or they might 700 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:30,279 Speaker 2: and meet in a whole bunch of different spots in 701 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:35,719 Speaker 2: a particular region. Or they might have a cadre of 702 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 2: people that they send out and try to start some 703 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:44,160 Speaker 2: kind of new work and unreached area. That's a population center. 704 00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:49,680 Speaker 2: They're constantly on the move, trying to make disciples wherever 705 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,439 Speaker 2: people are. They're not trying to get people to come 706 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,319 Speaker 2: to them, they're trying to go to where the people are. 707 00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:03,200 Speaker 2: That's a river tribe, river churches. I kind of used 708 00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:07,080 Speaker 2: that as an acronym for what it means to disciple others, 709 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:08,720 Speaker 2: because this is how you know you've got a disciple 710 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:13,880 Speaker 2: in your hands. They're making another disciple. The person's not 711 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,840 Speaker 2: making another disciple. They haven't actually become a disciple yet. 712 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,279 Speaker 2: They're they're on their way, they're in training, but they 713 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,920 Speaker 2: haven't actually made it yet. Because that's the sure that 714 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 2: you've got a disciple. How do you do that well? 715 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 2: I talked about, you know, kind of a five step approach. 716 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:39,680 Speaker 2: You relay, you invite, you visualize, you encourage, and then 717 00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:43,560 Speaker 2: you release. So you relay with the Holy Spirit has 718 00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:45,960 Speaker 2: done in your life through amation and demonstrations we talked 719 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,959 Speaker 2: about earlier. Do you invite them into a closer relationship, 720 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,280 Speaker 2: you know, like you can't disciple people from a distance, 721 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:55,959 Speaker 2: they have to be up close. And Jesus brought people 722 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,799 Speaker 2: up close. All right, we've taught thousands, but he had 723 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,759 Speaker 2: to disciples. And then he had three people that were 724 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,040 Speaker 2: a part of his little executive team, Peter, James and John, 725 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 2: and so he invited them into a closer relationship so 726 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 2: that they could get and get a feel for what 727 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,640 Speaker 2: it means to really live as a disciple. And then 728 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:23,799 Speaker 2: he visualized this is the third step, to visualize what 729 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:27,000 Speaker 2: it's like, what it is that God is doing in 730 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:30,799 Speaker 2: it that you can see them. I can't see ye 731 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:35,560 Speaker 2: visualize what they are doing, what God is doing another person. 732 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:37,960 Speaker 2: Then you call it course. Like I say, James, you know, 733 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,520 Speaker 2: I really see that that God has gifted you with 734 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,240 Speaker 2: a bright mind and the desire to share your faith 735 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:48,320 Speaker 2: in in coagent and compelling ways. And one of the 736 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,400 Speaker 2: ways you can do that, James, on a broad scale 737 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 2: is through podcasting. And somebody somewhere along the line had 738 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,680 Speaker 2: that conversation with you, and that's why we're doing this podcast. 739 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 2: They saw it in you before, you saw it in yourself, 740 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,719 Speaker 2: and they called it forth. It did the work of 741 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 2: a profit essentially. And then, of course once that happens, 742 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,400 Speaker 2: then that person's gonna need some encouragement because it's going 743 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,520 Speaker 2: to feel a little shaky to begin with. They have 744 00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:19,759 Speaker 2: really action done that kind of thing before, and you 745 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,600 Speaker 2: need some confidence. You need someone to come alongside as 746 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,560 Speaker 2: a good encourage do to say you can do this. 747 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,680 Speaker 2: I see this in you. You're making the right steps. 748 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,839 Speaker 2: This is something that you to do. Let's do it 749 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:36,000 Speaker 2: as much as possible together to begin with, and then 750 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:40,520 Speaker 2: you release right because the whole point of making a 751 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,680 Speaker 2: disciple is so that person can then go make other 752 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,920 Speaker 2: disciples and you release them to do the same kind 753 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 2: of thing with other people's. 754 00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,320 Speaker 1: That's fantastic. I love the acronym. I love the steps. 755 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that makes really good sense. It 756 00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,080 Speaker 1: resonates so much the visualization aspect of just reading a 757 00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:01,920 Speaker 1: book on blessing the Old Testament and talking about how 758 00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:07,040 Speaker 1: these blessings are not just well wishes, right just you know, hey, 759 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:08,160 Speaker 1: hope that happens. 760 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:09,000 Speaker 3: Great. 761 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,960 Speaker 1: You know, they're calling forth something, They're a participation with 762 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,640 Speaker 1: God and doing something and so true blessing is going 763 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,759 Speaker 1: to be aligned with what God is going to do, 764 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:20,799 Speaker 1: what we know God is going to do for you. 765 00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,680 Speaker 1: And it just strikes me that that visualization step is 766 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,839 Speaker 1: right aligned with that sort of blessing that we see 767 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,840 Speaker 1: often in the Old Testament, especially in the Book of Genesis. 768 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, some of the best things that have happened in 769 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,400 Speaker 2: my life have happened because someone saw something to me 770 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,319 Speaker 2: that I didn't see in myself and they called it. 771 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:43,640 Speaker 1: For Yeah, really love that. Very good Roger. This is 772 00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:48,560 Speaker 1: a fantastic book. I think it's really important. Discipleships are 773 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,160 Speaker 1: one of those areas that I think about an awful lot, 774 00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:54,600 Speaker 1: and so I very much appreciate the structure that you've 775 00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:57,319 Speaker 1: put through it to it and the way that you've 776 00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:02,520 Speaker 1: explained it. I think it's such a It doesn't feel like, hey, 777 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:05,160 Speaker 1: here's step one, here's step two, here's step three. It 778 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:09,600 Speaker 1: feels more like an organic process and a mix of 779 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,719 Speaker 1: activities that you need to be involved in, and then 780 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,560 Speaker 1: the growth will sort of come as you do these things. 781 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,680 Speaker 1: And so I really appreciate those more organic approaches. I 782 00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:22,320 Speaker 1: think that's really how God works. And even though people 783 00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:24,239 Speaker 1: may not they may look at it and be like, well, 784 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,799 Speaker 1: I really like the three steps, thank you. The reality 785 00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,440 Speaker 1: is that it may be okay to start with the 786 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,960 Speaker 1: three steps, but at some point you have to stop 787 00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,120 Speaker 1: looking at the ingredients on the back of the box 788 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,160 Speaker 1: and the instructions and you have to just start making 789 00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:38,720 Speaker 1: the cake on your own, you know what I'm saying. 790 00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,839 Speaker 1: Like there you have to develop a real sense for 791 00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,000 Speaker 1: how this stuff actually works because you're not in a 792 00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,440 Speaker 1: controlled environment all the time, you don't always have all 793 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,239 Speaker 1: the ingredients you'd like to have, and you've still got 794 00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:54,759 Speaker 1: to make the cake. So, yeah, this has been great. 795 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:58,000 Speaker 1: Where can people find the book? Where can people find you? 796 00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,040 Speaker 2: The book is everywhere the books are sold these days, 797 00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,439 Speaker 2: so just up on Amazon or Barnes and Noble wherever 798 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,560 Speaker 2: you want to go. And if you want to find 799 00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:10,239 Speaker 2: a little bit more about me, you can go to 800 00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:14,560 Speaker 2: the Humilitygroup dot org. That's the coaching organization that I'm 801 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,359 Speaker 2: a part of that I have the privilege of being 802 00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:19,719 Speaker 2: able to found and so we're excited about the things 803 00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:21,520 Speaker 2: that are going on there. And actually I put out 804 00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:25,120 Speaker 2: a weekly blog that's free that you can pick up 805 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:25,600 Speaker 2: if you want. 806 00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:27,000 Speaker 3: Very good. 807 00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:29,239 Speaker 1: Well, we'll have those links I'll link out to the 808 00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:31,480 Speaker 1: book in the show notes, folks, so if you're interested 809 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:33,319 Speaker 1: in the book, i'd encourage you to go and get that, 810 00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,640 Speaker 1: and then we'll also link to the Humility Group Humilitygroup 811 00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:42,040 Speaker 1: dot org and you can link out and find more 812 00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:45,560 Speaker 1: from Roger there. Really appreciate you being on today. Roger 813 00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,080 Speaker 1: just thanks so much for writing the book. Thanks for 814 00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:50,480 Speaker 1: all the work you're doing, and really appreciate you. 815 00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,919 Speaker 2: Thanks James Joy to be on this particular podcast. I'm 816 00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,160 Speaker 2: going to be listening to this podcast. You've got something 817 00:48:58,200 --> 00:48:59,120 Speaker 2: really great going. 818 00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:00,520 Speaker 3: On hereppreciate that. 819 00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:04,239 Speaker 1: Appreciate that, all right, everybody, Well, thanks for being with us, 820 00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:06,320 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and we will catch you on the 821 00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,120 Speaker 1: next episode of Thinking Christian Take Care. I just want 822 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:10,920 Speaker 1: to take a second to thank the team at Life 823 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,239 Speaker 1: Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. 824 00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:16,880 Speaker 1: If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens 825 00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,879 Speaker 1: of other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got 826 00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:22,839 Speaker 1: shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.