1
00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:03,520
Speaker 1: Life audio?

2
00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:08,879
Speaker 2: Is hell an eternal conscious state of suffering? Or sometime

3
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,400
Speaker 2: after final judgment? Does God annihilate unbelievers?

4
00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:15,360
Speaker 3: The text promises only those who rise under eternal life

5
00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:17,639
Speaker 3: will for that reason live forever. So what does some

6
00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:19,560
Speaker 3: will rise to everlasting life and others to shame and

7
00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:20,400
Speaker 3: everlasting contempt?

8
00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:20,560
Speaker 4: To me?

9
00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,000
Speaker 3: I mean some will rise and live forever. Others will rise,

10
00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,800
Speaker 3: they will feel shame, but they will be remembered forever

11
00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,120
Speaker 3: in contempt by God and by his people.

12
00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:29,960
Speaker 1: In the ancient world, there was, you know, kind of

13
00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,479
Speaker 1: the most horrendous thing that could ever happen was that

14
00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,240
Speaker 1: you had ceased to exist. Your personal identity would be obliterated,

15
00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,240
Speaker 1: You'd no longer be God does not take that step.

16
00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:43,199
Speaker 2: Is hell an eternal conscious state of suffering? Or sometime

17
00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:47,919
Speaker 2: after final judgment? Does God annihilate unbelievers? Or is there

18
00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,879
Speaker 2: a third option? It's no secret that the debate on

19
00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,560
Speaker 2: hell is heating up today. We have two leading scholars

20
00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,040
Speaker 2: on the topic of hell who have co edited a

21
00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:01,440
Speaker 2: book together, Paul Copen and christ eight and the book

22
00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,880
Speaker 2: is titled Concerning Hell. We also have a studio audience

23
00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:09,800
Speaker 2: of Biola and Talbot students with us who are eager

24
00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:14,040
Speaker 2: to ask questions after our conversation, and what we're going

25
00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,880
Speaker 2: to do uniquely, I think is we've got some opening

26
00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,200
Speaker 2: questions for you, but really want to kind of dial

27
00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:25,600
Speaker 2: into the Biblical passages in some depth, especially since this

28
00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:30,080
Speaker 2: is Tavit School Theology and the Bible Institute of Los Angeles.

29
00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,560
Speaker 2: Thanks for both of you for flying in from Washington,

30
00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,680
Speaker 2: all the way from the East Coast in Florida to

31
00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,400
Speaker 2: be here in studio. Appreciate you guys coming.

32
00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:40,080
Speaker 1: Great to be here.

33
00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:41,160
Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks for having us.

34
00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:43,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, so give me just a quick backstory of why

35
00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,000
Speaker 2: you're interested in this topic.

36
00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:47,080
Speaker 5: I'll start with you, Paul.

37
00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:53,720
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I was invited to a conference called Rethinking Hell.

38
00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,720
Speaker 1: And this is where Chris Date comes in, who he

39
00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:02,520
Speaker 1: is spearheading this ministry and these conferences that take place

40
00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:04,320
Speaker 1: every year, and so I was invited to speak back

41
00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:06,960
Speaker 1: at twenty twenty in the Seattle area. And so I

42
00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:11,120
Speaker 1: came to speak on the kind of the traditional position.

43
00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,360
Speaker 1: And during the panel discussion, we had four people sitting

44
00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:16,320
Speaker 1: on you on the panel. During the you know, we

45
00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,960
Speaker 1: were wrapping up and I was sitting next to Chris

46
00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:20,679
Speaker 1: and I leaned over and I said, well, maybe I

47
00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:26,120
Speaker 1: could turn this conversation into a book, and he latched

48
00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,120
Speaker 1: onto it, and it's just taken off from there. I mean,

49
00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:29,760
Speaker 1: it's been it's taken a while to get there, from

50
00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,320
Speaker 1: twenty twenty here to his twenty six, but we have,

51
00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,440
Speaker 1: you know, you know, really thanks many thanks to Chris,

52
00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,840
Speaker 1: who's really helped to get the people and list the

53
00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,560
Speaker 1: people to write this book. And so it's been an

54
00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:47,560
Speaker 1: opportunity for me to step into this topic in greater depth.

55
00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:51,880
Speaker 1: And so I'm really grateful for this opportunity to go deeper.

56
00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,640
Speaker 1: And that's what I love about, you know, writing and editing.

57
00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:56,840
Speaker 1: You learn so much in that whole process, and so

58
00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,400
Speaker 1: I'm really forced to and so I'm really grateful to

59
00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,959
Speaker 1: Chris who's really done such a masterful job as a

60
00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,400
Speaker 1: co editor. And so we're looking forward to seeing where

61
00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:06,080
Speaker 1: this book goes.

62
00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:08,280
Speaker 5: I love it, Chris, tell us your story.

63
00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:11,480
Speaker 3: So I went into public ministry back in twenty ten

64
00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:13,920
Speaker 3: or so, started a blog and then a podcast, and

65
00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:16,880
Speaker 3: I would have guests on my podcast, many of whom

66
00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,160
Speaker 3: shared my views on certain things, but I would often

67
00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:21,880
Speaker 3: have people on who held views I didn't hold, but

68
00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,560
Speaker 3: that I considered within the pale of Orthodoxy, and one

69
00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,280
Speaker 3: of those guests was Edward Fudge, who wrote The Fire

70
00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:34,200
Speaker 3: That Consumes, and going into that interview, I had, for

71
00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:35,840
Speaker 3: the ten years of my faith that I'd been a

72
00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:37,800
Speaker 3: Christian up until that point, had no problem with the

73
00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,080
Speaker 3: traditional view. I wasn't kept up at night. I didn't

74
00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,840
Speaker 3: have any moral or philosophical concerns with it or anything.

75
00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,440
Speaker 3: But I found his case incredibly compelling, and his answers

76
00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:48,640
Speaker 3: to all of the objections that I raised very compelling.

77
00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,160
Speaker 3: And so I found myself on the fence, and in

78
00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:53,600
Speaker 3: the months that followed, I dove into every sermon I

79
00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,200
Speaker 3: could find, every book, every article, every anything I could

80
00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,720
Speaker 3: find to try and convince me of eternal torment. Again,

81
00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,320
Speaker 3: to this day, I wish I could believe it, but

82
00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,600
Speaker 3: I just found that with every such source I turned to,

83
00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,760
Speaker 3: I became more and more convinced of conditional immortality or annihilationism.

84
00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,120
Speaker 3: And and so a ministry that had just started up

85
00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,360
Speaker 3: called Rethinking Hell invited me to participate, and the rest

86
00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,160
Speaker 3: has been history. What keeps where my interest is, though,

87
00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,440
Speaker 3: isn't the topic primarily. It's more the heat that it

88
00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,599
Speaker 3: causes that the division it tends to cause between Christians.

89
00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,599
Speaker 3: And my hope is that one day the debate between

90
00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:30,760
Speaker 3: these two views will be no different than the debate

91
00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,120
Speaker 3: between Calvinists and Armenians, or you know, pre millennialists and

92
00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,760
Speaker 3: poem post millennialists and so forth. And when when that

93
00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,440
Speaker 3: happens and we're no longer throwing each other under the bus,

94
00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:40,680
Speaker 3: I'll probably stop.

95
00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:41,760
Speaker 6: Now.

96
00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,840
Speaker 2: I was wondering when the first pun about hell would

97
00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,320
Speaker 2: come up, and you said, the debate is heating up.

98
00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,280
Speaker 2: I don't as a post you said it, so it's

99
00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,120
Speaker 2: it's been settled, the first one was made.

100
00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:56,039
Speaker 5: But I find a fascinating word to come back to this.

101
00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:59,280
Speaker 2: You said you you wish you could believe yea in

102
00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,800
Speaker 2: eternal eternal torment. We will circle back to that. I

103
00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,359
Speaker 2: find that so fascinating on so many levels. But let's

104
00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,960
Speaker 2: just I mean, let's dive in in terms of the substance,

105
00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,520
Speaker 2: and let's clarify what the two main positions are that

106
00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,680
Speaker 2: we're debating. Of course, there's other positions we'll just circle

107
00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,600
Speaker 2: back to briefly, but since you hold what's often called

108
00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,400
Speaker 2: the traditional view, makes sense to start with you, so

109
00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:25,680
Speaker 2: explain just not your defense yet, but what position you

110
00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:26,479
Speaker 2: hold now.

111
00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:31,159
Speaker 1: I call it eternal conscious punishment, because I think the

112
00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:36,560
Speaker 1: word torment can sound like torture chamber. It can sound

113
00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:40,520
Speaker 1: as though everything is flattened to the same level of punishment,

114
00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:46,200
Speaker 1: as though Satan has the same level of punishment as

115
00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:50,640
Speaker 1: say the humanitarian atheist who lives down the street. I

116
00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:54,320
Speaker 1: think there are degrees of punishment. And so you know,

117
00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,520
Speaker 1: and you see this cashed out in various ways, that

118
00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,320
Speaker 1: there is a conscious awareness, uh you know, even you glory, honor,

119
00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,200
Speaker 1: and peace to those who strive for immortality.

120
00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:05,720
Speaker 7: Uh.

121
00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:10,520
Speaker 1: But but distress and trouble your words of consciousness, they're there.

122
00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:15,160
Speaker 1: And so I'm I'm I as I see this, uh position,

123
00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,279
Speaker 1: I've I've kind of more finely tuned it as I've

124
00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,839
Speaker 1: gone through the literature and have talked to biblical scholars

125
00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,440
Speaker 1: and so forth, that that that's pretty much where I

126
00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:25,520
Speaker 1: where I land. That there that God is not going

127
00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:29,320
Speaker 1: to judge someone too severely or too harshly. It is

128
00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,000
Speaker 1: going to be a just judgment, and so forth. But

129
00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:33,800
Speaker 1: that there is and you know, at a I want

130
00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,120
Speaker 1: to get into the defense, but that's basically where I'm

131
00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:37,320
Speaker 1: coming from. But we can.

132
00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:44,680
Speaker 2: Eternal doesn't end conscience. It's consciousperienced by the individual. And

133
00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,400
Speaker 2: some say torment typically, but you say it's a kind

134
00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,080
Speaker 2: of punishment, right that lasts forever, It never ends.

135
00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,839
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, sometimes just described as restlessness and and you know,

136
00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:54,000
Speaker 1: distress and so forth.

137
00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,839
Speaker 5: Yeah, awesome, love it explain your position, Chris.

138
00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,640
Speaker 3: Yeah. So one thing that Paul didn't mention that totally fine.

139
00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:02,960
Speaker 3: I'm not criticizing him for it, is that the doctrine

140
00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,640
Speaker 3: of eternal conscious punishment entails resurrected immortality on the part

141
00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:08,839
Speaker 3: of the lost in hell. This goes back all the

142
00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,520
Speaker 3: way too, as far back as Athanagoris of Athens and

143
00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,520
Speaker 3: Tation of Audi Albine in the second century, straight up

144
00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,080
Speaker 3: to Wayne Grudom and Robert Peterson in the modern era.

145
00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,160
Speaker 3: The traditional view of hell has maintained that the resurrected lost,

146
00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:25,120
Speaker 3: physically embodied again, will never physically die. The historically, believers

147
00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,600
Speaker 3: in this view have comfortably used the words immortal and

148
00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,000
Speaker 3: live forever to describe what happens to these people in hell.

149
00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,640
Speaker 3: And that's important because my view is the denial that

150
00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,560
Speaker 3: the resurrected loss will live forever. Our view is that

151
00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,440
Speaker 3: the punishment meted out in hell is capital punishment. They're

152
00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:44,280
Speaker 3: literally executed. But in the first death, if death only

153
00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:46,440
Speaker 3: extends to the body, which is what Jesus seems to

154
00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,440
Speaker 3: indicate in Matthew ten twenty eight, don't fear those who

155
00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:50,160
Speaker 3: can kill the body but not the soul. Rather fear

156
00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:51,720
Speaker 3: the one who can destroy both body and soul. And

157
00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,680
Speaker 3: hell if only the body dies in the first death,

158
00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,760
Speaker 3: but the soul continues to exist consciously afterwards, in the

159
00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,480
Speaker 3: second death, body and soul will be slain, and so

160
00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:02,920
Speaker 3: it's a death of the whole person, including our very

161
00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,520
Speaker 3: the very consciousness of the lost in hell. So I

162
00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,440
Speaker 3: think the real just in a nutshell. The way to

163
00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:11,160
Speaker 3: think about the two views is that on one view

164
00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,840
Speaker 3: you have something like an eternal quarantine or an eternal

165
00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,080
Speaker 3: prison sentence or something like that, whereas in my view,

166
00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:19,280
Speaker 3: it's eternal capital punishment death forever.

167
00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,920
Speaker 2: So the body and the soul cease to exist, hence

168
00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:28,560
Speaker 2: the term annihilationism at some point after the final judgment.

169
00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:31,560
Speaker 1: And to add to what Chris is saying, it is

170
00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:36,440
Speaker 1: eternal or everlasting in the sense that the consequences endure,

171
00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:38,960
Speaker 1: it's not, as you know, so it's not as though

172
00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,800
Speaker 1: he's denying eternal punishment. It's just that it is a

173
00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,400
Speaker 1: matter of the consequences of the results of that are ongoing,

174
00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,880
Speaker 1: that there's a cessation and that person is deprived of

175
00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:49,320
Speaker 1: any future life.

176
00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,240
Speaker 3: Yeah. The way that Augustine put it in the City

177
00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:55,079
Speaker 3: of God is that when governments capitally punish people, when

178
00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,920
Speaker 3: they execute people, they don't measure the duration of the

179
00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,480
Speaker 3: punishment in terms of how long it takes to die.

180
00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,200
Speaker 3: If that's how we measured how long capital punishment is,

181
00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:05,880
Speaker 3: then if somebody, you know, collapsed in the electric chair

182
00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,200
Speaker 3: but then gasp back to life and what scientists call

183
00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,560
Speaker 3: Lazarus syndrome, the state would have to let them go, right,

184
00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:13,800
Speaker 3: But nobody thinks that's what the state would do. They

185
00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,000
Speaker 3: would flip the switch again until the person remains dead.

186
00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,760
Speaker 3: And that's because the punishment in the death penalty is

187
00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,400
Speaker 3: not being alive anymore. And if that's the state that

188
00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,760
Speaker 3: somebody's in forever, they're never alive again. That's by definition,

189
00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:25,960
Speaker 3: an everlasting punishment.

190
00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,800
Speaker 2: Okay, gotcha, And we'll get into some of those differences,

191
00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:34,719
Speaker 2: but that's helpful in terms of definitions. Before we jump in,

192
00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,440
Speaker 2: just a handful more questions before we get into the

193
00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,000
Speaker 2: passes we're going to spend most of the time. Where

194
00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,320
Speaker 2: do the two of you have common ground and do

195
00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:46,600
Speaker 2: you consider this an agree to disagree issue?

196
00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,880
Speaker 1: Well, we probably could list a whole bunch of things

197
00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:55,400
Speaker 1: where we agree. Obviously, the scriptures are our final authority

198
00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:59,680
Speaker 1: and that we are we are not. You know, the

199
00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:03,680
Speaker 1: trueition should be measured against the scriptures. And that's what

200
00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:06,240
Speaker 1: I appreciate about Chris, is that there is this re

201
00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,400
Speaker 1: examination of the scriptures and you know, going back to

202
00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,800
Speaker 1: the church, father and so forth too, and seeing if

203
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,720
Speaker 1: this traditional view holds up under scrutiny, which does a

204
00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,360
Speaker 1: better job of holding up. And so, you know, Chris

205
00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,240
Speaker 1: and I and the others at the roundtable earlier, we

206
00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,320
Speaker 1: have had that common commitment to, like the Brions, to

207
00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,440
Speaker 1: search the scriptures to see if these things are true.

208
00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:29,120
Speaker 1: So that's one thing. I mean, we go back and

209
00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,720
Speaker 1: forth too, but maybe that's maybe an important starting point

210
00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,120
Speaker 1: and seeing the scriptures as overwriting tradition and that we

211
00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,000
Speaker 1: need to continue to examine those traditions.

212
00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,520
Speaker 3: Okay, at the yeah, And at the same time I

213
00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:42,240
Speaker 3: would add that I think we also have a healthy

214
00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,960
Speaker 3: respect for tradition. There are certainly people on either side

215
00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:47,440
Speaker 3: of this debate that it's sort of like me and

216
00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,760
Speaker 3: my Bible under a tree, that's all I need. But

217
00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:51,440
Speaker 3: that's not our view. We think we stand on the

218
00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,280
Speaker 3: shoulders of giants and dwelt by the Holy Spirit, who

219
00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,280
Speaker 3: has gifted the church with gifted teachers over the years,

220
00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,760
Speaker 3: and we can't just dismiss them and pretend like we're

221
00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,200
Speaker 3: the first Christians on the scene. But I think, really

222
00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,240
Speaker 3: the the clearest answer to your question, I think would

223
00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,120
Speaker 3: just be we agree on the ecumenical creeds of the

224
00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:08,679
Speaker 3: first centuries of the Church. We agree on all the

225
00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,960
Speaker 3: essentials of the faith. We just disagree as to what

226
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:13,960
Speaker 3: the nature of the punishment meted out in Hell is.

227
00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,319
Speaker 1: And so there's no no question of heresy here. It's

228
00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,079
Speaker 1: a matter of, you know, under the umbrella of orthodoxy.

229
00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,960
Speaker 1: And and I've mentioned this that some of the leading scholars,

230
00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,800
Speaker 1: biblical scholars, theologians I respect, you know, a number of

231
00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,400
Speaker 1: them are conditionalists. Some of them are on the fence,

232
00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,360
Speaker 1: they're agnostic about the issue. But I have a high

233
00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,319
Speaker 1: regard to people like John Stott and one of my heroes,

234
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,040
Speaker 1: you know, a very you know, he was an annihilationist,

235
00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,720
Speaker 1: but you know, he was one who really helped shape

236
00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:43,880
Speaker 1: my early formation as a Christian.

237
00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,240
Speaker 2: And for people don't recognize that name, one of the

238
00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:50,400
Speaker 2: foremost really theologians, biblical scholars for.

239
00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,079
Speaker 1: Decades, like the evangelical pope.

240
00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, he really was for four years.

241
00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,160
Speaker 2: Well, let's dive into the scriptures, and I thought we'd

242
00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,199
Speaker 2: start with the Old Testament and we could ask kind

243
00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,480
Speaker 2: of in general, what do we learn from the Old

244
00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:06,960
Speaker 2: Testament about Hell? But there's kind of two passages that

245
00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,960
Speaker 2: people seem to focus on that come up, So let's

246
00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,160
Speaker 2: take them one by one in the order in which

247
00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:15,440
Speaker 2: they would appear in scriptures. So let's start with Isaiah

248
00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,800
Speaker 2: sixty six twenty four, and I'll read it for you

249
00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:20,920
Speaker 2: for us, and then just kind of get each of

250
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,440
Speaker 2: your it takes on this. So it says, and they

251
00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,320
Speaker 2: shall go out and look on the dead bodies of

252
00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:30,120
Speaker 2: the men who have rebelled against me, for their worm

253
00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:34,800
Speaker 2: shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and

254
00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:39,520
Speaker 2: they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh. Clearly, the

255
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,160
Speaker 2: keywords in this are the worms shall not die and

256
00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:46,719
Speaker 2: their fire shall not be quenched. What's your take on

257
00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,160
Speaker 2: what this passage teaches about the nature of hell and

258
00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:50,960
Speaker 2: what we can garner at this stage.

259
00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,600
Speaker 1: Well, I think I'd be in agreement with Chris here

260
00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:58,280
Speaker 1: that I think the strong emphasis here is on the corruption,

261
00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,880
Speaker 1: the degradation of these dead bodies and so forth, and

262
00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,439
Speaker 1: I don't place as much emphasis on this. I think

263
00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:06,960
Speaker 1: you can draw it out. I think you know, Jesus

264
00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,240
Speaker 1: emphasizing it three times in their you know, New Testament

265
00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,240
Speaker 1: scholars or race questions about you know, the fact that well,

266
00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,280
Speaker 1: why emphasize the worm not dying, the fire not going

267
00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:19,560
Speaker 1: out three times? That maybe there's some sort of a

268
00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:24,480
Speaker 1: connection to this, this ongoing the ongoing nature of that judgment.

269
00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:28,360
Speaker 1: But but I I'm sympathetic with what Chris is saying

270
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,960
Speaker 1: on that point as well from the Old Testament. That

271
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:32,960
Speaker 1: there may be more that's added in the New Testament.

272
00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,640
Speaker 1: But I think from the Old Testament perspective, don't I

273
00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,680
Speaker 1: don't see that that is drawing out some sort of

274
00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:40,800
Speaker 1: eternal conscious punishment view per se.

275
00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,880
Speaker 2: Okay, now you reference his point, but we haven't heard

276
00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:45,560
Speaker 2: your point yet. It's in the book you guys have

277
00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,439
Speaker 2: talked about elsewhere. Explain what your point is, and then

278
00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,000
Speaker 2: maybe just clarify exactly.

279
00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:51,880
Speaker 1: Maybe jump in with Daniel twelve, but with Chris first,

280
00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:52,880
Speaker 1: and then I'll offer a comment.

281
00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, so it's it's exactly as you read it.

282
00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,400
Speaker 3: These are not living immortals in hell. These are dead bodies.

283
00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:03,880
Speaker 3: The Hebrew gim it means corpses, carcasses. The picture is

284
00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,640
Speaker 3: that God has slain his enemies. And the reason for

285
00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,400
Speaker 3: the emphasis of their worm or the maggot won't die

286
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,000
Speaker 3: and the fire will not be quenched is because in

287
00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,320
Speaker 3: the ancient Israeli mind, an ancient Jewish mind, to have

288
00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,920
Speaker 3: one's dead body exposed to the elements, allowed to rot

289
00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,520
Speaker 3: away or burn away or be eaten up by scavengers

290
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,680
Speaker 3: was a great shame, and they fought desperately to prevent

291
00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:31,560
Speaker 3: their remains from being corrupted in that way. And what

292
00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,720
Speaker 3: God is saying there is that you won't be able

293
00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,600
Speaker 3: to stop the maggots from completely devouring these dead bodies.

294
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:38,680
Speaker 3: You won't be able to stop the fire from completely

295
00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:40,800
Speaker 3: burning them up, So you won't be able to avoid

296
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:45,280
Speaker 3: this everlasting contempt, this everlasting shameful memory. So the worm

297
00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,240
Speaker 3: that won't die. The closest parallel we have anywhere in

298
00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,560
Speaker 3: scripture is in Jeremiah seven, where God is talking about

299
00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:53,480
Speaker 3: how one day the valley of the sons of Himnim

300
00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:55,160
Speaker 3: will no longer be called that, but will be called

301
00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,480
Speaker 3: the valley of slaughter, because the dead bodies of God's

302
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:03,320
Speaker 3: enemies will be left unburied, and no one will be

303
00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,760
Speaker 3: able to frighten away the beasts and birds that feed

304
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,600
Speaker 3: upon the corpses. And the language of fire not being

305
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,720
Speaker 3: quenched is stock Old Testament language in places like Ezekiel

306
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,280
Speaker 3: twenty forty seven to forty eight, where precisely because God's

307
00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,120
Speaker 3: fiery wrath can't be quenched, that doesn't mean die out,

308
00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,960
Speaker 3: it means put out extinguished, precisely because you can't extinguish

309
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,880
Speaker 3: God's wrath, Ezekiel twenty says the trees and the palaces

310
00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,640
Speaker 3: of Jerusalem will be devoured, burned up. So this language

311
00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,800
Speaker 3: is far from, at least in my less humble than

312
00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,120
Speaker 3: it should be opinion, far from supporting an eternal conscious

313
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,360
Speaker 3: punishment view. It's it's very consistent with our view.

314
00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:44,040
Speaker 2: Okay, sounds like you agree at least would you agree

315
00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,440
Speaker 2: that it's consistent with their view and that we shouldn't

316
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:47,520
Speaker 2: read too much into this.

317
00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:49,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and in fact, I mean I think a lot

318
00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,160
Speaker 1: of these, you know, And maybe I should have said

319
00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,000
Speaker 1: this early when you said what things do you have

320
00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,120
Speaker 1: in common? Well, I think we have in common a

321
00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,720
Speaker 1: the kind of weight that we assigned to certain texts.

322
00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:00,720
Speaker 1: You know, how do we read apocalypt texts? How do

323
00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,760
Speaker 1: we understand the role of consciousness as well as the

324
00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,520
Speaker 1: language of perishing, destruction and so forth? What gets the

325
00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:12,280
Speaker 1: greater weight, the greater emphasis? Should you relent maybe on

326
00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,280
Speaker 1: the consciousness and in a sense give in to the

327
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,800
Speaker 1: language of perishing and destruction? And I guess as I

328
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,720
Speaker 1: see it, there are areas of consciousness. It seems like

329
00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,280
Speaker 1: that continues to be described as the final state. But

330
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,640
Speaker 1: I can see where Chris is coming from. So I

331
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,320
Speaker 1: know that there are ways in which both could respond say, no,

332
00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,560
Speaker 1: we can accommodate that. We accommodate that on both sides

333
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:37,000
Speaker 1: of the issue.

334
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:40,680
Speaker 2: Okay, So we're going to need further revelation to clarify

335
00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,720
Speaker 2: this one. The other passages often reference is in Daniel

336
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,360
Speaker 2: twelve two. And to take your advice also over here

337
00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,200
Speaker 2: this time, Paul, let me read it to us. It says,

338
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,680
Speaker 2: and many of those who sleep in the dust of

339
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,920
Speaker 2: the earth shall wake some to everlasting life and some

340
00:16:56,040 --> 00:17:01,080
Speaker 2: to shame and everlasting contempt. Trust, it's off and drawn.

341
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:05,120
Speaker 2: Is everlasting life on one side, everlasting contempt on the other.

342
00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:07,200
Speaker 5: Your take on this passage?

343
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:09,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, so here again. It seems to me that this

344
00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,879
Speaker 3: view just straightforwardly teaches my side of the debate. Obviously,

345
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,399
Speaker 3: that's why we're here, And the reason is because the

346
00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,760
Speaker 3: text promises, seemingly, at least a surface reading of the text,

347
00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,159
Speaker 3: that only those who rise unto eternal life will for

348
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,840
Speaker 3: that reason, live forever. The traditional view says that so too,

349
00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,240
Speaker 3: well the lost. They just generally think the expression eternal

350
00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,840
Speaker 3: life means something other than physically living forever, and we

351
00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,199
Speaker 3: can discuss that if we come to it. So then

352
00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,240
Speaker 3: what would it mean then if those who are raised

353
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,560
Speaker 3: too shame and everlasting contempt don't also live forever? Well,

354
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,000
Speaker 3: the word only the word contempt is described as forever.

355
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:49,800
Speaker 3: Shame plausibly likely is the experience of the person who's lost.

356
00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,520
Speaker 3: They feel ashamed for what they've done, But that's not

357
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:56,200
Speaker 3: what contempt is. Contempt is actually an emotion experienced by

358
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,680
Speaker 3: the redeemed, by the righteous. So the only other place

359
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,320
Speaker 3: that word is used in the Old Testament is Isaiah

360
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:04,919
Speaker 3: sixty six twenty four. It's the word translated abhorrence in

361
00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:09,159
Speaker 3: the Textas you just read, the corpses of God's enemies

362
00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:13,679
Speaker 3: are not experiencing abhorrence. They are causing abhorrence on the

363
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,920
Speaker 3: part of the righteous that are seeing them. So what

364
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,080
Speaker 3: does some will rise to everlasting life and others to

365
00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:20,240
Speaker 3: shame and everlasting contempt?

366
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:20,399
Speaker 4: Mean?

367
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:22,800
Speaker 3: I mean some will rise and live forever. Others will rise,

368
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,600
Speaker 3: they will feel shame, but they will be remembered forever

369
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:27,919
Speaker 3: in contempt by God and by his people.

370
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,040
Speaker 5: Okay, So make sure I understand everlasting life.

371
00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:32,679
Speaker 2: Would you say it's the same even though it's not

372
00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,360
Speaker 2: explained here when Jesus talks about eternal life. Is that's

373
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,960
Speaker 2: what's on one side of the equation here is eternal

374
00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,639
Speaker 2: life in that way, Okay. On the other side is shame.

375
00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:46,359
Speaker 2: So contempt is others viewing those who did not follow

376
00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:51,040
Speaker 2: the Lord. Shame is something they personally experience. So the

377
00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:56,280
Speaker 2: everlasting life is contrasted with everlasting contempt. But the shame

378
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,280
Speaker 2: is temporary because they cease to exist.

379
00:18:59,359 --> 00:18:59,720
Speaker 1: Is that fair?

380
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:01,520
Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean, it's think about the way that we

381
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,320
Speaker 3: hold people like Judas is Scariot in contempt today or

382
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,840
Speaker 3: Hitler or Paul Pott or whatever. Right, We in the

383
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,520
Speaker 3: West today often pretend as though we don't really care

384
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,679
Speaker 3: what people think of us after we're gone, But that

385
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,360
Speaker 3: really is pretense. All of us imagine what it would

386
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,879
Speaker 3: be like for our funeral to be unattended, and like,

387
00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:21,480
Speaker 3: what are we just going to be forgotten? Or worse,

388
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,040
Speaker 3: are people going to be negatively of us? So for

389
00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:25,920
Speaker 3: the for the authors of Scripture, I think it was

390
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,639
Speaker 3: very important to them how they would be remembered, what

391
00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,440
Speaker 3: sort of legacy they would leave behind, And to know

392
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 3: that you will be forever remembered in abject contempt, I

393
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:35,240
Speaker 3: think is a terrible punishment.

394
00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,080
Speaker 2: Okay, So but my question, though, is what's being contrasted here?

395
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,679
Speaker 2: Is this this everlasting life? It's this everlasting contempt. It

396
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,920
Speaker 2: doesn't say everlasting shame. So if it said everlasting shame.

397
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:46,919
Speaker 3: That would be more challenge.

398
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,760
Speaker 2: Say, oh, okay, fair enough, because then there's a conscious,

399
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,160
Speaker 2: ongoing experience god it Okay, that's helpful.

400
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,879
Speaker 1: Here your thoughts. Yeah, And I would say that in

401
00:19:55,920 --> 00:20:00,359
Speaker 1: my take on Daniel twelve, that you can include those

402
00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,960
Speaker 1: things that. Of course, Chris says that that it's the

403
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,959
Speaker 1: mere memory and so forth, and I could appreciate that,

404
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,880
Speaker 1: but I think that there could be a larger picture.

405
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,280
Speaker 1: And I think Jesus offers his own commentary on Daniel

406
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,920
Speaker 1: chapter twelve in Matthew thirteen verses forty to forty two,

407
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,000
Speaker 1: where we see, it's the parable of the tears. The

408
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,200
Speaker 1: weeds that are growing up with the with the wheat

409
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,959
Speaker 1: and are gathered together, are gathered and separated, and then

410
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:30,280
Speaker 1: the weeds are burned, and so it says it's thrown

411
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,639
Speaker 1: into the furnace. So it looks like the end of story.

412
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:34,800
Speaker 1: But then it goes on to say the place where

413
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,119
Speaker 1: there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. And that is

414
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:41,240
Speaker 1: jesus standard description of the final state, weeping and gnashing

415
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,000
Speaker 1: of teeth. And of course the nashing of teeth doesn't

416
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,320
Speaker 1: have to do with, you know, some sort of a

417
00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:47,240
Speaker 1: physical pain so much as it has to do with

418
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,719
Speaker 1: hostility to, you know, in this case, toward God. And

419
00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:52,840
Speaker 1: just like when Stephen and you look at the old

420
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,240
Speaker 1: test but gnashing of teeth is, you know, parallel with

421
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,280
Speaker 1: vexation and so forth. And when Stephen is about to

422
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,359
Speaker 1: be stoned. Those who are about to stone him are

423
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,960
Speaker 1: gnashing their teeth at him. So there's that a tone

424
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,119
Speaker 1: of hostility toward God, anger at God, and so forth.

425
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,520
Speaker 1: But so it goes on to say, you know, it says,

426
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,560
Speaker 1: so there's the language of the furnace destruction, there's weeping,

427
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,040
Speaker 1: a nashing of teeth, and then it's commenting on Daniel.

428
00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:20,680
Speaker 1: Chapter twelve says that the righteous will shine like the sun.

429
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:22,240
Speaker 1: So you've got, on the one hand, you've got the

430
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 1: consciousness here of the of the condemned, and you have

431
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,160
Speaker 1: the consciousness of the righteous, who will shine like the sun.

432
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,359
Speaker 1: So it seemed, you know, and I pointed this out

433
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,600
Speaker 1: in previous conversations where Chris and I have talking and

434
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 1: talked about in the book. You know, people like Craig

435
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,840
Speaker 1: Keener and David de Silva, new Testament scholars, you know, well,

436
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,720
Speaker 1: very well respected, they see that in the Old Testament literature,

437
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 1: and we could perhaps go into this or the Inner

438
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:50,360
Speaker 1: Testament of literature. You have the dominant or the majority view,

439
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 1: which is I think very interesting, is largely torment and

440
00:21:55,080 --> 00:22:00,639
Speaker 1: then extinction except for the most heinous of sinners, and

441
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,920
Speaker 1: as da Silva and Keener look at the language. They say, Well,

442
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,399
Speaker 1: Jesus and John the Baptist, for example, are taking the

443
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,159
Speaker 1: minority view and applying it to all the condemned. That

444
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 1: this is something that is going to be applied to

445
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,400
Speaker 1: all you know, the place for the devil and his angels,

446
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 1: and so this is uh, you know, so there is

447
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,439
Speaker 1: that kind of a backdrop to this. And so I

448
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,199
Speaker 1: just want to bring that in because I think that

449
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 1: there that is reflected on what Jesus is saying.

450
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 2: Man, now you did sneak in some New Testament passages,

451
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 2: we're getting their polity.

452
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 5: In fairness, I know you have a response.

453
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,080
Speaker 1: But I'm saying, I'm saying at surface level, you know,

454
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 1: I could appreciate what Chris where Chris is coming from.

455
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,879
Speaker 1: But again, is that all there is to it? Is

456
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 1: the question?

457
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 5: Fair enough?

458
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 2: So if you're going to sum up in like a tweet,

459
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,840
Speaker 2: what you think the Old Testament contributes to our understanding

460
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 2: of Hell, what would it be.

461
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 3: Ask the Old Testament not what it says about Hell,

462
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:51,879
Speaker 3: but what it says about the end of the wicked.

463
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 3: If you ask that question instead, where instead of looking

464
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 3: for Hell in the Old Testament, you instead look in

465
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 3: the Old Testament for what it says will happen to

466
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 3: the lost, it's they'll vanish like a dream. They'll vanish

467
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,639
Speaker 3: like smoke. They'll waste away like lime melted. They'll disappear.

468
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 3: They'll be like you know, the dream forgotten. They'll they'll

469
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 3: they'll they'll be punished with they won't enjoy the esteem

470
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 3: of people that they you know, the respect that they

471
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,399
Speaker 3: had in life, and all these kinds of things. So

472
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:23,880
Speaker 3: there's a lot it says. It's just it doesn't say

473
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 3: much about hell. And that's why it's so often thought

474
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 3: to not say much.

475
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 1: Okay, fair enough, Yeah, no, I agree. I mean I

476
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: can give it in you know, in books where traditionalists

477
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 1: are commenting on the Old test but they said, they admit,

478
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 1: there's not a whole lot in terms of that, you know,

479
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 1: the final state of the wicked. So in terms of

480
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 1: conscious punishment.

481
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,679
Speaker 2: Fair enough, which we shouldn't shouldn't surprise us. How much

482
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 2: are we gonna understand about the trying character of God?

483
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 2: How much you understand of salvation by faith? There's progressive revelation,

484
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 2: and so let's move to some of the New Testament passages.

485
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,159
Speaker 2: I think these are arguably the top six I asked

486
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,880
Speaker 2: chat GBT, and that's what chat GBT said. So I'm

487
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 2: going with it to side. These are some of the

488
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 2: passages you explore here. And what's interesting is the range

489
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 2: of verses that talk about this. You have James three

490
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 2: to six. Of course, you have Hebrews talking about hell.

491
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,439
Speaker 2: You have the Gospels, you have Paul. Now we have

492
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,880
Speaker 2: to explain what each of those are. But they cross

493
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 2: different authors in different genres. But I figured we take

494
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,680
Speaker 2: at least one from each of the three Gospels. So

495
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 2: let's go to Mark nine forty three through forty eight,

496
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 2: and this will play back on what we just read

497
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 2: from Isaiah. So in this famous passage Mark nine, I'll

498
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 2: read it says, and if your hand caused you to sin,

499
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 2: cut it off. Is better for you to enter like

500
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,239
Speaker 2: cripple than with two hands to go to Hell in

501
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,199
Speaker 2: this case Gahenna to the unquenchable fire. And if your

502
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 2: foot cause you to sin, cut off, it's better for

503
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 2: your enter life then with two feet to be thrown

504
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 2: into hell. If you cause you to sin, tear it out.

505
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:53,399
Speaker 2: It's better for you to enter the Kingdom of God

506
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,439
Speaker 2: with one eye, then with two eyes to be thrown

507
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 2: into hell where the worm does not die and the

508
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 2: fire is not quenched. Again the exact same language from

509
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 2: Isaiah sixty six. I'll start with you on this one.

510
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 2: What's your take on what we can draw from Mark nine.

511
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 3: Well, so, first of all, the word translated unquenchable the

512
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 3: Greek word ausbestos, it doesn't mean never dies out. So

513
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 3: for example, in Matthew three twelve, I think it is

514
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 3: John the Baptist says of Jesus that he will gather

515
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 3: the weed into his threshing floor and burn them with

516
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 3: unquenchable asbestos fire. But the word translated burned there kata

517
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 3: kio doesn't mean burn. Kyo means burn, and it's just

518
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 3: a generic burning that could go on for a long

519
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 3: time or not. Kata kyle means reduced to ashes. So

520
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:44,400
Speaker 3: when so, so apparently asebestos or unquenchable fire reduces to ashes.

521
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,400
Speaker 3: And that's what Jesus seems to be saying in Mark

522
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 3: nine forty three to forty eight is that you don't

523
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,640
Speaker 3: want it'd be rather you'd rather go to heaven incomplete,

524
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 3: you know, maimed, then go whole into hell. Well you'll

525
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,880
Speaker 3: where you'll be, will you'll die and be destroyed. The

526
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 3: worm that won't die in the f than novel will

527
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 3: not be quenched. Language we've already talked about from Isaiah

528
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 3: sixty six, and importantly, Jesus doesn't add anything here in

529
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 3: the context that would suggest that he's co opting the

530
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 3: meaning of Isaiah and changing it to mean something else.

531
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 3: There's no indication that he's doing that. I actually think

532
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 3: the most interesting thing about this passage is the next

533
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 3: verse that you didn't read, which is that everyone will

534
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 3: be salted with fire. Because one of the things that

535
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 3: conditionalists like me often observe is that modern traditionalists aren't

536
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,959
Speaker 3: very traditional. And I don't mean any offense by that,

537
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 3: but if you look at the writings of traditionalists historically,

538
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 3: they write in extremely gruesome terms about what they anticipate

539
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 3: awaiting the lost. I think Minutius Felix in the third

540
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 3: or fourth century wrote that the fires of hell literally

541
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 3: burn off your flesh while simultaneously regenerating it, you know

542
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 3: what I mean. And they'll use passages like this salted

543
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 3: with fire language, you know, salt preserves and that's the

544
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 3: point here. Some traditionalists have SAIDWGT. Shed I think said

545
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 3: this as well, that the salt preserves the wicked in hell.

546
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 3: But I actually don't think that's what's going on there.

547
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 3: I think what is going on there is there was

548
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 3: a practice in the Old Testament where when one army

549
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,160
Speaker 3: would defeat a city and destroy it, they would salt

550
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 3: the land to prevent it from growing back, to prevent

551
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 3: it from flourishing. So it's still even there, I think

552
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 3: a destruction kind of promise. So yeah, I just I

553
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 3: don't think that Mark nine. In fact, Mark nine and

554
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 3: Isaiah sixty six were the first texts that got me

555
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 3: thinking maybe I'm wrong about.

556
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 5: This because that was the start of the journey issues.

557
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 3: Because of the dead corpses language in Isaiah sixty six

558
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 3: and what all of this fire not being quenched. Language

559
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 3: means everywhere in scripture.

560
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 5: So okay, yeah, that's helpful your take on Martinez.

561
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, and I know Chris has mentioned this

562
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 1: that you know, like when you look at Matthew twenty five,

563
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 1: which we'll get to, you know, how do you how

564
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: does Jesus speak elsewhere about the final state? So that

565
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: should inform how we may look need to look at

566
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 1: Matthew twenty five. And I'd say the same thing with

567
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: this text that you've just cited where you where you know,

568
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: is Jesus maybe using this to indicate something more. Well,

569
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 1: let's see if other texts from say the Synoptic Gospels

570
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 1: will illustrate this. I think they do. But I think

571
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: given the Old Testament context, you know, unless you know,

572
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: and again the question is Jesus adding more and fleshing

573
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 1: it out? Is he taking that minority view, which I

574
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: think he is. Then I think that that does shed

575
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: light and does give maybe a new glimmer, you know,

576
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: just like we do with the Trinity, you know, with

577
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: the you know, the Spirit hovering over the water or

578
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: you know, or the by the word of the Lord,

579
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: the heavens were made and so forth. So we see

580
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 1: oh kind of trinitarian intimations here. But I'd say that,

581
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: you know, again, given that Old Testament context and Jesus

582
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: quoting it, we need a little bit more. And I

583
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: think we see that illustrated in Matthew thirteen, where you

584
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: have that text of Jesus commenting, as it were on

585
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: Daniel chapter twelve, that there is conscious existence for the righteous,

586
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: but also so it seems, for the for the wicked.

587
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 2: So it sounds like both of you agree, then when

588
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 2: it comes to Mark nine, Jesus is not co opting

589
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 2: or adding a lot more to this language that advances it.

590
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 2: We're only going to make sense of Isaiah this passage

591
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 2: when we bring in Revelation fourteen, Matthew twenty five, and

592
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 2: other passages to really get to clarify our positions.

593
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 5: Would you agree with that for the most.

594
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: Part, I say to some way, I mean, Chris would

595
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: say no, this is more definitive, you know, And I

596
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: might say, like even when you get to Matthew twenty five,

597
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: you know the place prepared for the devil and as angels, Well,

598
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: what does that look like? Well it helps to look

599
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: at the you know, at Revelation fourteen and twenty that

600
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: this is the outcome, this is the destiny of the

601
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: devil and as angels. But also you know, you know,

602
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: those who don't, those who are going to that place

603
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: that is prepared for them. We see that kind of

604
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: illustrated or commented on in the Book of Revelation as well.

605
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: So I do think there is that the importance of

606
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: the analogy of scripture, where we compare scripture of scripture

607
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: and weigh those things, and we weigh them differently well,

608
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: and I certainly agree.

609
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 3: You know, I've often said that if I found one

610
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 3: verse that I could not possibly deny, taught eternal conscious punishment,

611
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 3: I would interpret everything else through that lens. I just

612
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 3: my conviction, my read of scripture is that there is

613
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 3: no such verse. And so yes, I agree that if

614
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 3: eternal torment is true, you're not going to find it

615
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 3: in Mark nine. But as it turns out, I don't

616
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 3: think it is true. I think you're going to find

617
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 3: our view everywhere in scripture.

618
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 5: So well, that's where we're going to get to think.

619
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: I think we agree that as we get into these

620
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:21,239
Speaker 2: additional passages there's arguably more and more clarity. And what

621
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 2: says in the book from the writers is when you

622
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 2: get to Revelation fourteen, in Revelation twenty, these are the

623
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 2: most compelling cases. You think it points one way, you

624
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,239
Speaker 2: think it points another. But we're getting there. So all right,

625
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 2: so let's move on a passage that you think is

626
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,959
Speaker 2: a little bit more clear in this case, Matthew twenty

627
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 2: five forty one through forty six, and I'm going to

628
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 2: read it for us, so we've got the context.

629
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 5: Here in the ESV.

630
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 2: It says, then he will say to those in the

631
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 2: left depart for me, you cursed into the eternal fire,

632
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 2: prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry,

633
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 2: and he gave me no food. I was thirsty, gave

634
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 2: me no drink. I was a stranger. You do not

635
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 2: welcome me, nake, you do not clothe me, sick, and

636
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 2: in prison you did not visit me. Then they will

637
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 2: also answer, saying, Lord, when would he see hungry at

638
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 2: thirst year, stranger, or naked, or sick in prison, and

639
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 2: do not minister to you? Then he will answer to them. Truly,

640
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 2: I say to you, as you did not do it

641
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,719
Speaker 2: to one of the least of these, you do not

642
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 2: do it to me. And then here's the kicker, he says,

643
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 2: And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the

644
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 2: righteous into eternal life. Now you've pointed towards this passage

645
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 2: a few times, as you think, being more clear, tell

646
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 2: us what you draw out of this for your position.

647
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, of course this is in the context and

648
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 1: several times within in Matthew twenty four and twenty five,

649
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: you do have mention of Jesus' standard description of the

650
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: final state of consciousness. You know, weeping the place where

651
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. And so this

652
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: this text that you're referring to. Of course, you know,

653
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: you have the parallels of eternal life and eternal punishment,

654
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: and I would say that when you have them in parallel,

655
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: I think that does raise interesting points that that there

656
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: is is it duration, is it conscious experience? And will

657
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: weigh those Chris and I will weigh those things differently.

658
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: But you know, Craig, Craig Blomberg and other Craig he

659
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: he he comments on this, saying that, yes, you can

660
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: have mentions of say, eternal redemption in the in the

661
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: Book of Hebrews, and so for that when you have

662
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: them it is sen side by side. It seems that

663
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: you have a point of comparison here. Uh that is

664
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: I think you know there there's there's much more of

665
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: a you know, a deeper connection. And he sees it,

666
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 1: and I think there's a point to it of of

667
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: of ongoing conscious exists. And so again this is informed

668
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: in in other ways by by other texts from the

669
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: from the Gospel. So so I see a number of

670
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: these consciousness, uh you know, final state texts that do

671
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: I think support this sort of a view, and so

672
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 1: I would see that that is what what Jesus is

673
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: talking about, at least, you know, I think a reasonable

674
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 1: case can be made for it.

675
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 2: Okay, fair enough, So this says at the first part

676
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 2: is to part from me who are cursed into the

677
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 2: turn of file, prepared for the devil and the angels,

678
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 2: the eternal fire, which is hinting towards revelation of fourteen twenty.

679
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 5: We'll come back to that.

680
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 2: Your key point now is that there's not like we

681
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 2: talked about Daniel twelve too. The eternal everlasting contempt is

682
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 2: those viewing back on them with contempt, but it's not

683
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 2: everlasting shame, which would have been a conscious experience of

684
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 2: the people who are cast into this eternal destruction. You're saying,

685
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 2: when we get to Matthew twenty five, you see eternal

686
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 2: life contrasted with eternal punishment, and the punishment to be

687
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 2: eternal seems to imply some kind of ongoing conscious experience.

688
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 5: Did I sum that up there?

689
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: Yeah? I would say so.

690
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, Okay, awesome.

691
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: Your take.

692
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, just a passing mention, a passing

693
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 3: response to the weeping and nashing language in the places

694
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 3: where Jesus uses that language, it seems in virtually every

695
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 3: case that that weeping and nashing will not in fact

696
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 3: go on forever. So, for example, you've mentioned Matthew thirteen.

697
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 3: In the parable, Jesus is interpreting there, weeds are catacio,

698
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 3: they're burned up in fire. And then Jesus says, just

699
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 3: as the weeds are burned in fire, so will all

700
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 3: causes of lawlessness and all lawbreakers be thrown into the

701
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 3: fiery furnace, alluding by the way to Damik Neezzar's fiery

702
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,760
Speaker 3: furnace in Daniel, which was so hot that Nebuka Nezzer's soldiers,

703
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 3: lacking divine protection, died just getting close to it, but

704
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 3: God's protected people inside the fire survived.

705
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 4: It.

706
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 3: Interesting how people who anyway, I'm not going to go

707
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 3: to there so now, and I would just encourage people

708
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 3: to check out the work of a scholar by the

709
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 3: name of Kim Popejano. He's got a book that he

710
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 3: published with Whippenstock I think, called The Geography of Hell

711
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 3: and the Teaching of Jesus, and he makes a really compelling,

712
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 3: I think case that this weeping and nashing language is

713
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 3: in no way a challenge to my view, but I'll

714
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 3: encourage people to check that out now. As for this

715
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 3: passage in particular, eternal fire is an expression that Jesus's

716
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 3: own brother Jude uses in Jude chapter seven to refer

717
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 3: to the fire that came down from Heaven and Genesis

718
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 3: nineteen and destroyed Sodom and Gomorah. Jude uses it to

719
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 3: mean that it's not fire in which people burn co

720
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 3: conciously forever. It's the fire of God himself, which it

721
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 3: can't be quenched because it's divine fire. It's it's his wrath,

722
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 3: and it can't be extinguished, and so it's going to

723
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 3: completely destroy. Jesus uses the expression eternal fire earlier in Matthew,

724
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 3: where he sets it up in parallel to Gehenna, which

725
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 3: is this valley of the Son of Him language in

726
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 3: the Old Testament, which God promised would be where he

727
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 3: would slay his enemies and the corpses of his enemies

728
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 3: would be ingloriously destroyed. So eternal fire doesn't help the

729
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 3: traditional view here, I think, as for eternal punishment versus

730
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,280
Speaker 3: eternal life, this is really important. One of the misconceptions

731
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 3: a lot of people have of conditionalism and annihilationism is

732
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 3: that we believe in a finite punishment, a temporary punishment,

733
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 3: but we don't. We believe it's an everlasting punishment. Where

734
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 3: we disagree is what the nature of that punishment is.

735
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 3: The traditional view says the nature of that everlasting punishment

736
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 3: is everlasting misery of some sort, pain, spiritual separation from God. Whatever.

737
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 3: We think that punishment is death, not being alive anymore.

738
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 3: The Greek word collossus in the septuagen often means that penalty.

739
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 3: So it's just a matter. We all agree that punishment

740
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 3: lasts forever, lasts just as long as a life does.

741
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 3: But interesting that only the righteous are the ones that

742
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,240
Speaker 3: said are said there to receive eternal life. So somebody

743
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 3: like me says, why should I think that the unrighteous

744
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 3: are going to live forever? If only the righteous rise

745
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,280
Speaker 3: to eternal life. The only everlasting punishment that doesn't also

746
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 3: include living forever is the everlasting death penalty. And that's

747
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 3: the way I take Matthew twenty five.

748
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I would make a distinction, you know, everlasting

749
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 1: or your eternal life. I think this is a qualitative

750
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 1: existence that also involves, you know, the existence within the

751
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: new heavens. And the New Earth where there is this

752
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: transformed physicality. So I would say, you know, and again

753
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 1: Chris will say, well, you know, the immortality is used

754
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 1: in the early Church to connote that the state of

755
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 1: the wicked, but true immortality is has to do with

756
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: resurrection of the body, that is, this transform physicality of

757
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: the body that Jesus had, that is that is, you know,

758
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 1: therefore able to participate in this transformed physicality and the

759
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: new heavens of the New Earth. And so I would

760
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:03,399
Speaker 1: say that the distinction with the raised unrighteous is that

761
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 1: they don't have that qualitative existence. And so that's why

762
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: I'll say, you know, they they have, you know, they'll

763
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 1: have you know, kind of you know, everlast they'll they'll

764
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: exist everlastingly. But that's not immortality in the true sense

765
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 1: of the word, the biblical sense of the word. And

766
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: I'd also say too, yes, fire does burn, but you know,

767
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 1: you can also have the language of of course when

768
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 1: you look at fire and darkness in the in the scriptures,

769
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 1: we took them literally they would cancel each other out.

770
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 1: But but even in you know, a text, you didn't

771
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 1: say we're you know, we're going to cover But I

772
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 1: think is relevant here is in in first Peter chapter

773
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:35,919
Speaker 1: or second Peter chapter three, where you have the mention

774
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: of the flood, where the world is destroyed and you know,

775
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 1: and of course it wasn't destroyed, destroyed because it was reinhabited,

776
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: so it was just it was just uh, you know,

777
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,879
Speaker 1: just flooded with water, but then reinhabited, so it wasn't obliterated.

778
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 1: And then you have in the same way the language

779
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: of the coming of the new heavens and the new Earth.

780
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 1: This transformed physicality, and there is a language of burning

781
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 1: with intense heat that the elements you know, you know,

782
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 1: being you know, being being destroyed. But yet it's you know,

783
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: a lot of interpreters, and I think this reflects the

784
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,800
Speaker 1: Old Testament, that the like the wilderness being transformed into

785
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 1: this kind of paradise of flowering trees and so forth.

786
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 1: Uh and and and verdant, verdant meadows and so forth.

787
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: That language of transformation is seen in uh second second

788
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: Peter chapter three, where the heat burns away certain things,

789
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 1: the fire burns away the elements and so forth, but

790
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 1: what is remaining is that which is the the new hems,

791
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 1: the new Earth. So it's not an obliteration of the

792
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 1: old heavens and then the new heavens and new Earth

793
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 1: are created x Nihilo, And I think that that would

794
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 1: be you know, so I think it just illustrates that

795
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 1: just because there's fire doesn't mean that there's obliteration or destruction,

796
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 1: even though Chris makes a case for that in other cases,

797
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: but I think it in second Peter, Uh, there's I

798
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: think a very strong case to say, well, yeah, it's

799
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 1: something might be ruined, might be destroyed, you know, you know,

800
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,919
Speaker 1: or you know in that sense, but it has been obliterated.

801
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 1: And so we I think that's why we kind of

802
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: have a measure, I have a measure more measured view

803
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 1: of what destruction means. You know, Can it mean obliteration

804
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 1: or could it mean something like ruin or the like?

805
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 2: Okay, so we both I'm going to come back to Chris.

806
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 2: Both sides believe that unbelievers are destroyed, would use that language,

807
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 2: but differ over what that destruction and destroying means. So

808
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 2: destroying means at some point they are going to seize

809
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 2: to exist and have a loss of the eternal life

810
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 2: that was promised to believers. Come back and qualify that

811
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 2: if you need to destroying in this case would mean

812
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 2: continue to exist, but destroying either the humanity their relationship

813
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 2: with God, who they were meant to be ongoing, like

814
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:48,479
Speaker 2: you see in second Peter.

815
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 5: Is that fair your thoughts?

816
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I agree that most traditionalists today

817
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 3: who are not very traditional will say the wickers.

818
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 5: Say that twice. So you like pointing that out.

819
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 3: I'm a little bit of a yeah, but uh, but

820
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 3: it is interesting. You're right that modern traditionalists do say, yes,

821
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 3: the loss are destroyed. The question is what that means.

822
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 3: But it is interesting that if you look historically, traditionalists

823
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 3: have unabashedly said the wicked are never destroyed in hell.

824
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 3: In our second book, A Consuming Passion, which is a

825
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 3: fest shrift in honor of Edward Fudge, one of my friends,

826
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 3: Ronnie Demmler, he catalogs statements from traditionalists throughout church history,

827
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 3: and they just unabashedly say, yeah, the wicked nerd never destroyed.

828
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 3: The wicked are live, they live forever, et cetera.

829
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 5: So that's okay, So fair point.

830
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,760
Speaker 2: But when they say they're not destroyed, aren't they meaning

831
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 2: it in a different sense of like they're not ceasing

832
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 2: to exist? But they still would agree that they're destroyed

833
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 2: in the way that Paul is taking.

834
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 4: Right.

835
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 3: Maybe maybe I'll leave that up to you to decide,

836
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 3: But I'm just saying, how how frequently traditionalists have just

837
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 3: matter of factly contradicted the Biblical language with the language

838
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 3: they use. Now they may they may say, well, they

839
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 3: are different ways. I mean destroyed in one case. It

840
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 3: might mean one thing in another case another. But it

841
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 3: is interesting how if you just look at quotes from

842
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 3: traditionalists throughout history, they just matter of factly contradict scripture

843
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 3: on numerous occasions.

844
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,439
Speaker 2: Okay, so the traditional view which is held I think

845
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 2: the way it's phrased in the introduction, so presumably both

846
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:13,879
Speaker 2: of you would agree with it.

847
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 5: In fact, I think I let me see if I

848
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 5: can pull back here.

849
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 2: You said it's in the conditional immortality view is an

850
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 2: extreme minority view, except you would argue with the first

851
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 2: few centuries, there's some people who hold it differently, but

852
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 2: at least since I don't know Augustin Ford, it's been

853
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 2: an extreme minority view.

854
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 5: Would you agree with that? Just in general? I don't

855
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 5: want to put words in your mouth, but with.

856
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 3: One nuance, I actually think that if you look at

857
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,959
Speaker 3: the Apostolic fathers up through about the time of Justin Martyr,

858
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 3: they were all they all held. In my view, it's

859
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 3: not until Justin Marter arrives on the scene and thenation

860
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 3: of Adiabanian Athnagaris that eternal torment arrives on the scene.

861
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 3: By the way, at the same time universalism appears on

862
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 3: the scene and the likes of Clement of Alexandria and

863
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 3: Origin of Alexandria. But you're right that at least since

864
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 3: the time of Augustine, if not a little bit earlier,

865
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 3: my view's been in the extreme minority. But but again, modern,

866
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 3: the modern traditional view is very unlike what it's been held,

867
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 3: you know, held to consist of historically as well. So

868
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 3: there's a sense in which I think we're kind of

869
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 3: both on the same page and rejecting a lot of tradition.

870
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 3: It's just to what extent we're rejecting that tradition. I

871
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 3: suppose one thing.

872
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 1: I agree with that, by the way, Yeah, I mean, yeah,

873
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 1: I agree, And but I would say, in you know,

874
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:21,720
Speaker 1: in in Chris's defense, I think a lot of people

875
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:26,800
Speaker 1: dismiss annihilationism as though this is totally aberrant and uh,

876
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 1: and outside the pale of Orthodoxy. And I think that

877
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 1: Chris is making a very good point that you know,

878
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 1: look at the you know, not just to mention the

879
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: the Intertestamental period, and I've given my take on that,

880
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: but but you know, you know, early early Church, you know,

881
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 1: fathers are are writing in this vein too. So I

882
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: think to be so quick to dismiss the conditionalist uh,

883
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: you know, I think fails to consider some of those

884
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 1: you know, the early writings that you know that I

885
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: think reflect some you know, some of that tradition that

886
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: is coming out through the Intertestamental Judaistic period. And so

887
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 1: I I just such wanted to defend Chris on that front.

888
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,240
Speaker 1: And rather than I think a lot of modern people

889
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: think that this is totally out of line, it's an

890
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,879
Speaker 1: innovation trying to do away with Hell, and that this

891
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,959
Speaker 1: is a modernistic attempt to tamp down the nature of Hell.

892
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 1: And no, I think Chris has antiquity to appeal to here.

893
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 3: Okay, I appreciate that very much. One thing I want

894
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 3: to clarify a little bit is that when I talk

895
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,800
Speaker 3: about destruction, I'm actually not thinking in terms of ceasing

896
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:31,720
Speaker 3: to exist. I'm thinking of ceasing to live. So, for example,

897
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 3: in Matthew ten twenty eight, where Jesus says fear the

898
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:35,439
Speaker 3: one who can destroy both body and soul and hell,

899
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,280
Speaker 3: the Greek word of polomy there is translated to destroy.

900
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 3: But the argument we're making is not that he's saying

901
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 3: cause the body and soul to cease to exist. None

902
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 3: of us think that that God's like Fanos and he's

903
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:47,840
Speaker 3: going to snap his fingers on the last Day and

904
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 3: half the universe is going to disappear. No, they're going

905
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 3: to be slain. The Greek word apolymy everywhere in the

906
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 3: Synoptic Gospels, where it's used in the act of voice

907
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 3: with a human as its direct object. The way that

908
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 3: Jesus ESEs it in Matthew ten twenty eight, it means

909
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 3: slay or kill. So I just want to I just

910
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 3: want to clarify that the emphasis in our minds is

911
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 3: not ceasing to exist. It's not living anymore.

912
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 1: Okay.

913
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 2: So you make that point in the book, and I'm

914
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 2: failing to understand the significance of it, And maybe this

915
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 2: is on maybe.

916
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 3: Because I don't think Jesus ceased to exist, but I

917
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 3: think he bore up our punishment in our place.

918
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,800
Speaker 2: But he did die, but yeah, we're talking about physical

919
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 2: death in that case. Of course, he physically died, but

920
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 2: that's not a permanent failing to live.

921
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 3: Well, he also wasn't tormented and agreed.

922
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:35,280
Speaker 2: But if somebody's not living, are they existing in any

923
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,360
Speaker 2: sense after they are destroyed in hell? Is there any

924
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 2: sense of continued existence where they live in one way

925
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:42,360
Speaker 2: but not another?

926
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 3: I don't think so. But the reason is because death

927
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 3: extends not only to the body and the second death,

928
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 3: but also to the soul.

929
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 5: So the body and soul cease to exist.

930
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 3: The body doesn't, at least not initially. I mean, we don't.

931
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 3: We don't make any hard and fast claims about how

932
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 3: long it takes for the body to be burned up,

933
00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 3: or even if it will literally be burned up. The

934
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,840
Speaker 3: picture in Isaiah is of corpses that remain for a while,

935
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 3: at least so that the law the righteous can look

936
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:05,760
Speaker 3: on them and find them imporrent.

937
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 2: Okay, so for eternity there might be bodies, mister now,

938
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 2: or you just don't land that way, I just don't.

939
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 3: I don't think the Bible makes that clear. But but

940
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 3: the point is, I'm not denying that we could cease

941
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 3: to exist as conscious beings. I'm just trying to emphasize

942
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 3: that that's not what we're saying, is the emphasis of

943
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 3: the destruction language. The reason they cease to exist consciously

944
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 3: is because the mind, which is what the soul is,

945
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 3: it dies as well, and the second death, whereas only

946
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 3: the body dies in the first O case.

947
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 2: Let me connect you, but I just want to make

948
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 2: sure I understand the difference is eternal punishment in Matthew

949
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 2: twenty five, and then we're going to move to Luke

950
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 2: sixteen here in a minute. Is eternal punishment. This is

951
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:47,919
Speaker 2: a conscious experience in some physical state. Now we've used

952
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 2: the term resurrection to life and death, but you would

953
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 2: draw distinction in one Corinthians fifteen. There's an immortal qualitative

954
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 2: difference with those who are saved, but there's some either

955
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 2: conscience or bodily eternal existence in What I understand is

956
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 2: the eternal punishment is the loss of life. That loss

957
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 2: continues forever even though there's not somebody experiencing that loss.

958
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 5: Is that fair?

959
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 1: Okay? Yeah? And I you know, I would just add

960
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 1: to this that when we were talking about, say you,

961
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: body and soul being thrown into hell, I think that

962
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:26,439
Speaker 1: that's what happens with the second death, that those who

963
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 1: are uh, you know, who try to exclude themselves from God,

964
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: you know, are put into that final state body and

965
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,839
Speaker 1: soul and uh. And and that that that is seen

966
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 1: as destruction. I know that, you know, Chris talks about

967
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: destruction is being more definitive. But you do have language

968
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 1: of uh, you know, the the lost coin or the

969
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 1: lost son or the lost sheep, and that language that

970
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 1: that is used is you know, kind of the destroyed coin,

971
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 1: the destroyed son. Uh. You know that that same you know,

972
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 1: that the same cognate is used and uh. And so

973
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 1: that's why why some scholars like David de Silva hesitate

974
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 1: to say, well, you know, you know, it's part of

975
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,399
Speaker 1: the same word group and that this just destroyed sun

976
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 1: has still not been obliterated. But you know, so they'll

977
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,720
Speaker 1: say that that's why they hesitate on kind of pulling

978
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: the you know, pulling the plug on the traditional view.

979
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 1: And so, yeah, I was going to say a bit

980
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 1: more on that, but I think when we get to

981
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 1: revelation we'll talk a bit more about that, except to

982
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:26,280
Speaker 1: say that when we're dealing with, say, the devilin is angels,

983
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: keep in mind, I think a lot of times we

984
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,879
Speaker 1: emphasize the physicality of the final state, you know, from

985
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 1: the traditional view. But keep in mind that the devilin

986
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,240
Speaker 1: is angels are spirit beings. They don't have nerve, endings

987
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 1: or bodies, so that the language of a flame affecting

988
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 1: them is really not the issue. It's it's really related

989
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,319
Speaker 1: to final judgment, to the finality of the state.

990
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, so we're going to get to We're

991
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:49,840
Speaker 2: going to jump here to Luke sixteen nineteen through thirty

992
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 2: one in a famous passage. But I want to remind

993
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 2: people watching and listening we've got some questions coming from

994
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:58,360
Speaker 2: students soon, So students be writing down and thinking of

995
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 2: your questions for Chris and or for Paul. And by

996
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,760
Speaker 2: the way, I'm gonna go live Tuesday after we post

997
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 2: this with one or two Talbot professors to get their

998
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 2: take on this conversation, so make sure you join his

999
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 2: Tuesday four thirty Pacific Standard time live. All right, I'm

1000
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 2: gonna start with you on this one. But this is

1001
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 2: Luke sixteen nineteen through thirty one, and this story is

1002
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:23,239
Speaker 2: only found in the Gospel of Luke, interestingly enough, and

1003
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 2: it's about Lazarus, not the Lazarus Jesus rose from the

1004
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 2: grave in John chapter eleven. But it's either the parable

1005
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 2: or the story, and there's some.

1006
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 5: Debate about that.

1007
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 2: About a rich man who has clothed and fine linen,

1008
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 2: and he feasted sumptuously. At his gait was laid a

1009
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 2: poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores. He desired to

1010
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 2: be fed. The dog team lickedisres poor man dies and

1011
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:49,719
Speaker 2: is carried by angels to what's called Abraham's side. The

1012
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,840
Speaker 2: rich man also died and was buried in hades, and

1013
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 2: it says, being in torment, he lifts up his eyes

1014
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 2: and saw Abraham far off in Lazarus at his side,

1015
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,759
Speaker 2: and he calls out, Abraham, have mercy on him, and

1016
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 2: he says, given water for his tongue. Fre'men anguish in

1017
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:11,280
Speaker 2: this flame. And of course he reminds him. Abraham reminds

1018
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 2: him that during you had good things during your life

1019
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 2: and comfort. Now it's the reverse. But one of the

1020
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 2: lines is it says he says, five or five brothers,

1021
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 2: warn them unless they come into this place of torment.

1022
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,280
Speaker 2: And of course his point is if they had the profits,

1023
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 2: they won't even be convinced if someone's been risen from

1024
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 2: the dead. Now, you don't spend a lot of time

1025
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 2: debating this passage in the book, but in the end

1026
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 2: in your closing you kind of bring it back and say,

1027
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 2: there's some important points for the conversation we should draw

1028
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 2: from this. Let me, I don't even know where I

1029
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 2: should start. You guys, tell me who should I start

1030
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:44,280
Speaker 2: with on this one?

1031
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think, well, maybe I'll just say this.

1032
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:49,800
Speaker 1: Both Chris and I would agree that this is referring

1033
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 1: to the intermediate state. That this is not the final state.

1034
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 5: Okay, now to find that just for okay, the.

1035
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 1: State where they you know, where there is you know,

1036
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 1: at death, both the believer and unbeliever are in, you know,

1037
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 1: either with the Lord or in this state of as

1038
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:12,439
Speaker 1: it were, separation or removal from the blessing of God,

1039
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:16,879
Speaker 1: and that they await the final resurrection. So they are

1040
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 1: in a disembodied state in which they're experiencing things. So

1041
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 1: the rich man does not have a resurrected body, doesn't

1042
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 1: have a resurrected body yet. This is a as we're

1043
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 1: kind of virtual sensation, so to speak.

1044
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 5: But it's a state of distress before he dry points

1045
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 5: out of it.

1046
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 2: So somebody died right now, they would go to one

1047
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 2: of these two places until Jesus comes back and millennium.

1048
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 2: Final judgment is where really this debate comes in. What

1049
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 2: will happen after the final judgment?

1050
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 1: The final resurrection?

1051
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 2: The final resurrection is what the debate is about. That,

1052
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 2: not the immediate point of death. Do you guys talk

1053
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 2: about that in the introduction? So that's this. Both of

1054
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:58,800
Speaker 2: you agree that this passage in Luke is in the

1055
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:03,439
Speaker 2: immediate intermediate state, not the future final judgment, right right.

1056
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, So so it's a picture of, you know,

1057
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:08,959
Speaker 1: of of distress. You know, the same language is used

1058
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 1: of of you know, Jesus parents when they're looking for him,

1059
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 1: they're distressed, or the Ephesians they're distressed when Paul they're

1060
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 1: not going to see Paul in Acts chapter twenty, they're

1061
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 1: not going to see him anymore, you know, alive on

1062
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:24,399
Speaker 1: the earth. And so I and I talk about this too.

1063
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:26,320
Speaker 1: One of the one of the points that I'm making

1064
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 1: is that there's a kind of tenderness with which Abraham

1065
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: is addressing this man. He calls him child, you know,

1066
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 1: my child, a child technoon and he is I think

1067
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 1: that there is something about preserving someone in life, in

1068
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: conscious life, rather than obliterating that person, giving that person

1069
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:50,240
Speaker 1: his way, you know, state trying to keep God at

1070
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:52,919
Speaker 1: a distance, not wanting to commune, have commune with God.

1071
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,399
Speaker 1: But but there is this act of love, as it were,

1072
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 1: to allow a person to continue in existence rather obliterating him.

1073
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,359
Speaker 1: As Ryan Mullins is actually here on campus, he says,

1074
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 1: if if God destroys you, that it just goes to

1075
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 1: show you that He's not really all that into you.

1076
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 1: And uh and so uh you know, but but I

1077
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 1: think that that ongoing existence could actually be an expression

1078
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 1: of love. After all, God is not willing that any

1079
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:17,360
Speaker 1: should perish, but that all come to repentance and so forth,

1080
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 1: and that he simply allows people to stay on in

1081
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 1: that existence. And perhaps uh, you know, and Chris, we've

1082
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 1: talked about this before that in the ancient world, there

1083
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 1: was you know, kind of the most horrendous thing that

1084
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:32,280
Speaker 1: could ever happen, was that you would lose your own exit.

1085
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 1: You know, you would you would cease to exist, your

1086
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 1: personal identity would be obliterated, you'd no longer be and

1087
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:39,880
Speaker 1: uh and and you know, God does not take that

1088
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 1: step uh, and so we we disagree on that, but

1089
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:44,840
Speaker 1: I think that we could know from from my angle

1090
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 1: that it would be expression of love too. And being.

1091
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 1: You know, there's something about being that is good. That

1092
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:51,319
Speaker 1: God gives being to all and that is a good thing,

1093
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 1: although that being can be corrupted, but but you know,

1094
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 1: so there is a certain goodness to continuing to exist.

1095
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 2: Okay, So we're gonna come back to whether Hell, as

1096
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 2: you underst is loving or just after we work through

1097
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 2: the passages. But in this passage, you're saying someone can

1098
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 2: coexist with flames, whether they're real or judgment, and there's

1099
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 2: some metaphorical and and God continuing somebody alive is an

1100
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 2: act of love even amidst this judgment. Those are a

1101
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 2: couple of the key things you draw from this passage

1102
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 2: your take or did you want to?

1103
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 1: I would draw from that passage, but I just say

1104
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 1: it's base suggests something beyond the interviediate state to the

1105
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:31,799
Speaker 1: final state. Got it?

1106
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 5: Good qualification?

1107
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:32,800
Speaker 4: Go?

1108
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:35,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think Paul's right that the fact that

1109
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 3: torment is ongoing and flame in this scene doesn't mean

1110
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 3: that we can't just apply as a blanket, you know,

1111
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 3: application of fire that anywhere fire appears, it's got to

1112
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 3: burn people up. So I appreciate that that that you're

1113
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 3: drawing from the text. I don't have much to add

1114
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:52,800
Speaker 3: as in terms of this of this text. What I

1115
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 3: do want to say, though, is this highlights one of

1116
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 3: the common misconceptions about conditionalism or about annihilationism. So many

1117
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 3: people I've heard from have said, I thought that annihilationists

1118
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 3: believe that when you die is used to exist and

1119
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 3: it's all over. Well, No, outside of the Seventh day

1120
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 3: Advitists and the advent Christians, which are denominationally affirming both

1121
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 3: annihilationism as well as an unconscious intermediate state. Outside of

1122
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 3: those denominations, evangelicals who hold to annihilationism are very diverse

1123
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 3: in how they understand the intermediate state. Many of them

1124
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 3: believe in a conscious intermediate state in which the righteous

1125
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 3: are in the presence of God and the lost are

1126
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:34,240
Speaker 3: suffering in Hades. One of the biggest the King James

1127
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 3: version is great, it's got a lasting legacy that will

1128
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 3: serve us forever. But one of the big mistakes that

1129
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 3: the translators of the King James version made was that

1130
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:45,799
Speaker 3: they translated both Hades and Gahenna as hell and that's

1131
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 3: a big mistake. So even Irenaeus of Leon in the

1132
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 3: second century, writing against heresies, is affirming a conscious intermediate

1133
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 3: state while at the same time affirming final annihilation in Hell.

1134
00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 3: So I just want people to understand that annihilationism, the

1135
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:03,239
Speaker 3: debate Hell, has almost nothing to do with the nature

1136
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:05,440
Speaker 3: of the intermediate state. People can hold to any of

1137
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:07,439
Speaker 3: you of the intermediate state and any view of Hell,

1138
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 3: they're gonna have to, you know, cash those things out independently.

1139
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: But if I could just quickly add to that, you know,

1140
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 1: we see that Jesus goes into the realm of Hades,

1141
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 1: you know, and and you.

1142
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 3: Know that depends on how you understand that.

1143
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:21,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, no, he goes to the realm of the dead.

1144
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 1: You know that that this is the you know, kind

1145
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 1: of the the shield, the realm of the dead, the grave,

1146
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 1: and that uh, and that he didn't see corruption in

1147
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 1: that state, and so you you do have that kind

1148
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:34,440
Speaker 1: of a language of you know, both the redeemed and

1149
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 1: the unredeemed being in that state, of course, you know.

1150
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 1: And I think that's why the apostles Creed refers to

1151
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:41,800
Speaker 1: you know that you know, he descended into Hell. I

1152
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 1: don't think that's the the realm of the departed loss,

1153
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,400
Speaker 1: but rather it's the realm of the dead, and sometimes translated,

1154
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 1: you know, he departed to the dead and uh, but

1155
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:51,919
Speaker 1: of course he says to the criminal on the cross today,

1156
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,919
Speaker 1: will be with me in paradise. So so there is that,

1157
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 1: you know that that thing perhaps that needs to be

1158
00:55:57,040 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 1: added as well.

1159
00:55:57,600 --> 00:55:59,759
Speaker 2: So it's worth pointing out. And this is a really

1160
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 2: point you made about the King James version. It's not

1161
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 2: the only that does this. That there's different words like

1162
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:08,360
Speaker 2: Shiel the realm of the dead, like Hades, which is

1163
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:11,840
Speaker 2: the intermediate state at least being referred to here, Gehenna,

1164
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 2: which seems to be refer into lake of fire, and

1165
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:18,879
Speaker 2: those have very different points. And so this passage you're saying,

1166
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 2: one of the key confusions is we assume that conditionalists

1167
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 2: believe that the moment you die, there's this season to exist,

1168
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 2: and you're saying, no, there is an extended intermediate state

1169
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:34,279
Speaker 2: where there could be varying degrees of punishment, but eventually

1170
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 2: people will seize to live. That's what you mean by hell.

1171
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 3: Or the way that revelation puts in Hades will be dead,

1172
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:41,759
Speaker 3: will it be emptied? The dead will come out of

1173
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:44,799
Speaker 3: Hades and resurrection, and then Hades itself, along with death,

1174
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:46,360
Speaker 3: will be thrown into a lake of fire, along with

1175
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 3: the resurrector.

1176
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:49,279
Speaker 1: Okay, because there is you know, so you've got because

1177
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 1: you got the two resurrections. So there's no there's no

1178
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 1: realm of the the you know, the that intermediate state

1179
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:56,480
Speaker 1: of the you know, hades any longer, and so it's

1180
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 1: in a sense done away with.

1181
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, love it all right, we're making some serious progress,

1182
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:01,319
Speaker 2: at least in my mind.

1183
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:03,799
Speaker 5: I'm enjoying this. This is helpful. Okay. So we've looked

1184
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:05,839
Speaker 5: at three the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

1185
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 2: Let's get least one passage in there of Paul and

1186
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 2: see how this fits into the case. And this is

1187
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 2: one that's often cited to understand the nature of hell

1188
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 2: and that it's eternal, and you also cite it in

1189
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 2: the end in your conclusion. So I will start with

1190
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 2: you on this one because you think there are some

1191
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 2: singular things we can draw from it. Let me read verses.

1192
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 2: This is second Thessalonians one five through nine says this

1193
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 2: is the evidence of the right's judgment of God that

1194
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 2: you may be considered worthy of the Kingdom of God,

1195
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 2: for which we are also suffering, since indeed God considers

1196
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 2: it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,

1197
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:44,760
Speaker 2: and grant relief to those who afflict it as well

1198
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:47,439
Speaker 2: as to us. When the Lord Genus is revealed from

1199
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 2: heaven with his mighty angels. These last two verses is

1200
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 2: where it gets precise, inflaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those

1201
00:57:57,240 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 2: who do not know God and on those who do

1202
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 2: not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ verse nine.

1203
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 2: They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction away from

1204
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 2: the presence of the Lord and from the glory of

1205
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 2: his mind. How do you understand this passage and how

1206
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 2: do you think it advances or at least clarifies your position?

1207
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 1: One of the things you know through this project, and

1208
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 1: I really you know, you know, it's been great to

1209
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 1: work on this book together with Chris, because you know, I,

1210
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:27,880
Speaker 1: as I've looked at this text and Second Thesalonians one,

1211
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:30,960
Speaker 1: you know it's often translated away from the presence, and

1212
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:32,959
Speaker 1: of course I think that's what is in a sense

1213
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 1: the leading indicator that hell is separation from God. That

1214
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 1: you know, people are all separation or if there's another

1215
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 1: realm as it were, from you know that you know,

1216
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 1: and humans are excluded, you know, the condemned are excluded from,

1217
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 1: you know, say, the presence of God in a in

1218
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:51,560
Speaker 1: a meaningful way of blessing and joy and so forth,

1219
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:53,840
Speaker 1: that they're removed from the blessing of God and so forth.

1220
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 1: But but here what seems to be that this has

1221
00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 1: taken place, you know, that away from is actually not

1222
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 1: how it should be understood. It's actually, uh, it's you know,

1223
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:06,040
Speaker 1: before the face of God, that's in the as it

1224
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 1: we're in the presence of God. That this is the

1225
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:10,479
Speaker 1: uh that you know. And this is echoed I think

1226
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:14,800
Speaker 1: in another from another angle in Revelation fourteen, where those

1227
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 1: who are you know, restless, those who are being judged,

1228
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 1: who have worshiped the beast and his image and so forth,

1229
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 1: that they you know, you know, that they have no

1230
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:26,880
Speaker 1: rest And this is actually taking place before the throne

1231
00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:29,520
Speaker 1: of God. So rather than being removed from the presence

1232
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 1: of God, it's actually the reaction of the wicked in

1233
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:36,280
Speaker 1: the presence of God. And Dallas Wilder talks about how

1234
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 1: you talked about the flames of heaven as it were,

1235
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:40,320
Speaker 1: you know, the new Heaven, new Earth. But the flames

1236
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 1: of heaven burn hotter than the flames of hell. Because

1237
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:46,520
Speaker 1: people who are in you know, who are in the

1238
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 1: presence of God, find this distressing. They find it, you know, discomfiting,

1239
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:54,680
Speaker 1: that this is something deeply problematic. So they're actually before God.

1240
00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 1: But the but whereas the believer reacts to the presence

1241
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:02,320
Speaker 1: of God in a in a loving, joyful way, it

1242
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 1: is a point of distress and discomfort for the unbeliever

1243
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 1: to be facing this. So Residan see it is accordining off,

1244
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 1: which is sometimes how second that's ononian is one and

1245
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 1: is trans is understood. I think this, this presence model

1246
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:17,960
Speaker 1: is a better way of looking at it, just before

1247
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 1: the presence of God. And and this is reinforced from

1248
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:24,120
Speaker 1: another angle in in in revelation fourteen.

1249
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:26,800
Speaker 2: Okay, we'll get your revelation fourteen. Maybe you heard this

1250
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 2: what I think? Maybe you said the flames burn higher

1251
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:32,720
Speaker 2: in heaven odder, Yeah, in heaven than in hell.

1252
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1253
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 5: That did you mean they burn hotter in hell than

1254
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 5: in heaven?

1255
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:38,840
Speaker 1: Or no, no, heaven? Okay, So that's Dallas Willard said.

1256
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 1: In other words, this, you know, you know that there

1257
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 1: is the presence of God is so distressing for the believer.

1258
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:49,160
Speaker 1: It's it's wonderful for the unbeliever, it's wonderful for the believer.

1259
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:51,160
Speaker 1: And so that in a sense, it's kind of like

1260
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:54,960
Speaker 1: the sun that can warm you get a sun tan

1261
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 1: share it comforting. It's you know, you know a lot

1262
01:00:58,120 --> 01:00:59,760
Speaker 1: of people just love to be warm. They find it

1263
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:03,920
Speaker 1: so comforting. And but he can also scorch, you can

1264
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 1: create drought and so forth. So the presence of God

1265
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 1: bring brings out different reactions in people, brings out elits

1266
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 1: his different responses. And that's in a sense a provocative

1267
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:16,560
Speaker 1: way that Dallas Willard is using that language to to say,

1268
01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 1: you know, you know, oh, everyone who want to be

1269
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 1: in heaven, you know the universalist, Yeah, everyone will want

1270
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:23,560
Speaker 1: to be the president God. Well, you know, I think

1271
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:26,800
Speaker 1: kind of echoing Paradise Loss, you know Satan who says,

1272
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:29,800
Speaker 1: you know, better to rule in hell than serve in heaven.

1273
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 1: I think that that's really what's going on here. But anyway, that's.

1274
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:36,760
Speaker 3: It's a very stock Eastern Orthodox view that is that

1275
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 3: heaven and Hell are both the presence of God in

1276
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 3: all of his unmitigated glory, his unmitigated love. But you know, imagine,

1277
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 3: imagine a father, you know, trying to lovingly embrace his

1278
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:49,960
Speaker 3: two sons, and one of them loves his father and

1279
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:52,760
Speaker 3: the other hates him. That loving embrace is going to

1280
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:55,240
Speaker 3: be experienced as love by the son who loves his father,

1281
01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:57,560
Speaker 3: but it's going to be tormenting for the son who

1282
01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 3: hates his father. That's kind of analogy.

1283
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 2: Okay, so God, this would solve the issue of God's

1284
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:06,840
Speaker 2: omnipresence and what it means to be away from the Lord.

1285
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:12,080
Speaker 2: But believers and unbelievers are separated, but both experience the

1286
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:15,800
Speaker 2: presence of a Lord in a very different fashion. That's yar,

1287
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:17,520
Speaker 2: do you think God?

1288
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:19,400
Speaker 1: And I wouldn't say, And I know that there is

1289
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 1: a language of say, you know, depart from me and

1290
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 1: so forth, there is that separation language. But I think

1291
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:26,520
Speaker 1: when you look at these texts more closely, and I

1292
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:29,000
Speaker 1: think you can you know, I simply you know, we're

1293
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:32,560
Speaker 1: talking about people receive joy through community with God, but

1294
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:35,560
Speaker 1: those who refuse community with God. It is distressing, it

1295
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 1: is troubling. It creates a sense of restlessness, and that's

1296
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:42,440
Speaker 1: just the fallout from keeping God at a distance. So

1297
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:45,880
Speaker 1: in some ways you can perhaps cast it as separation

1298
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 1: or self separation, as it were. But but you know,

1299
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 1: there's also the language of depart from me and so forth.

1300
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:53,200
Speaker 1: So I think we can reconcile those, but.

1301
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:54,680
Speaker 2: Perhaps that this is not the place to do that,

1302
01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:56,080
Speaker 2: fair enough, So I'm gonna have to think about this

1303
01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:59,760
Speaker 2: more because the typical understanding is it's banished away from

1304
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:03,240
Speaker 2: the Lord, and it'll be explained, if not physically relationally

1305
01:03:03,240 --> 01:03:05,760
Speaker 2: you're saying, no, God is present, they are, So it's

1306
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:09,080
Speaker 2: not like in hell you're present with Satan. In Hell,

1307
01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:12,360
Speaker 2: you're present with God but experiencing the full weight of

1308
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:16,920
Speaker 2: his wrath, so to speak, and your rejection of him. Okay,

1309
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:19,640
Speaker 2: all right, just clarifying those positions, we could circle back

1310
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 2: to that in your mind before we get to revelation.

1311
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:26,640
Speaker 2: When it talks about inflicting vengeance, does that language of

1312
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 2: like it feels like it's ongoing inflicting something, they will

1313
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 2: suffer the punishment of eternal destruction. Does that add to

1314
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:36,160
Speaker 2: your case?

1315
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:36,480
Speaker 3: You think?

1316
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:38,680
Speaker 5: And then I want to know why you obviously think

1317
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:39,120
Speaker 5: it doesn't.

1318
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:41,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think in some ways this is more of

1319
01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:45,120
Speaker 1: a neutral text because it's typically been taken as removal

1320
01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:47,120
Speaker 1: from the presence of God, that that's the essence of hell.

1321
01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:49,800
Speaker 1: And that's, you know, the view that I've taken. But

1322
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 1: you know, actually reading a traditionalist Charles Quarrels, you know,

1323
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:55,360
Speaker 1: commenting on second Deslonians one nine, I thought, well, he's

1324
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:58,440
Speaker 1: making you know, he's saying, it's not a separational language,

1325
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:01,720
Speaker 1: it's kind of a causal language. That the presence of

1326
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:04,760
Speaker 1: God causes joy for the believer, but it causes distress

1327
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:07,240
Speaker 1: for the unbeliever. And that's that's how he's how he's

1328
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:07,720
Speaker 1: casting it.

1329
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:12,280
Speaker 2: But even though it says suffer the punishment of eternal distraction.

1330
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:15,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I again, we could take our cues

1331
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:20,560
Speaker 1: from Matthew twenty five where you have them parallel and

1332
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:23,360
Speaker 1: so forth, and see it in other ways. I would say, yes,

1333
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:27,560
Speaker 1: it could speak into that language. I don't necessarily see that,

1334
01:04:27,640 --> 01:04:30,920
Speaker 1: as you know, as decisive, but anyway.

1335
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:33,240
Speaker 5: Fair enough, presume you agree with that, or what would

1336
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:33,760
Speaker 5: you add to that.

1337
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:36,560
Speaker 3: I mean, I agree with some of the things Paul said.

1338
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 3: So I'll just make three quick points. Number one, and Paul,

1339
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:42,480
Speaker 3: I'm so glad that you see this and acknowledge it

1340
01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 3: that the Greek preposition of pod does not mean away from,

1341
01:04:45,160 --> 01:04:49,320
Speaker 3: It just means from. And the passage most scholars think

1342
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:51,920
Speaker 3: that he's sort of drawing upon is in as Isaiah

1343
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:58,280
Speaker 3: chapter two. The where the wicked they they are fleeing

1344
01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:02,600
Speaker 3: in terror from or sorry, fleeing from terror of the Lord,

1345
01:05:02,640 --> 01:05:05,080
Speaker 3: the terror of the Lord. Now, notice from there doesn't

1346
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:08,360
Speaker 3: mean they're trying to hide away from God's own fear. No,

1347
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:11,960
Speaker 3: they're They're hiding because of fear of the Lord. So

1348
01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 3: this language of a paw of from means cause, so

1349
01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:16,160
Speaker 3: they are.

1350
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:18,600
Speaker 1: So the mistranslation therefore would be appalling.

1351
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:24,960
Speaker 3: So anyway, well away from is fairly mild. Then you

1352
01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:26,840
Speaker 3: get the NIV was shut out from, and then you

1353
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:30,840
Speaker 3: get really abused. So that's number one.

1354
01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:32,520
Speaker 2: Okay, before you go two and three, let me just

1355
01:05:32,520 --> 01:05:34,520
Speaker 2: make sure people understand this. It says they will suffer

1356
01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:39,080
Speaker 2: the punishment of eternal destruction away from or shut out

1357
01:05:39,160 --> 01:05:41,440
Speaker 2: from the presence of the Lord. You're saying creates this

1358
01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:45,200
Speaker 2: idea that hell is apart, separated, and if we just

1359
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:49,200
Speaker 2: say suffer the punishment of eternal instruction from the presence

1360
01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:51,440
Speaker 2: of the Lord, that literally changes everything.

1361
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:53,680
Speaker 5: And you both agree on that, Okay, all right.

1362
01:05:54,280 --> 01:05:57,040
Speaker 3: So the second point is you quoted the inflaming fire

1363
01:05:57,160 --> 01:05:59,840
Speaker 3: and inflicting vengeance language, which I think is important because

1364
01:05:59,840 --> 01:06:02,360
Speaker 3: that combination of terms appears together in only one other

1365
01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:05,800
Speaker 3: place in Olive scripture, and that's Isaiah sixty six fifteen,

1366
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:09,600
Speaker 3: where it's where it's talking about God's angels coming to

1367
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 3: slay God's enemies. And we've already talked about how that

1368
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:15,160
Speaker 3: scene ends with God's enemies having been reduced to corpses,

1369
01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:17,920
Speaker 3: being eaten by maggots and burned up by fire. So

1370
01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:20,360
Speaker 3: I think that that's what Paul is alluding to there,

1371
01:06:20,360 --> 01:06:23,920
Speaker 3: which sounds like he's teaching my view. The third and

1372
01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:25,560
Speaker 3: final thing I want to talk about is just this

1373
01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 3: language of eternal destruction. Some people who object to annihilationism,

1374
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:32,640
Speaker 3: they will say, well, why would he call it eternal destruction?

1375
01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:36,520
Speaker 3: If destruction is annihilation, that's by definition eternal, so to

1376
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:39,440
Speaker 3: call it eternal will be redundant. But again, this just

1377
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 3: trades on misconceptions of what we think by destruction we

1378
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:46,880
Speaker 3: mean death, and the whole point or one of the

1379
01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:50,200
Speaker 3: obvious implications of the doctrine of resurrection, the general resurrection

1380
01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:53,080
Speaker 3: I mean, is that death isn't forever. In the first death,

1381
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:56,440
Speaker 3: it's not everlasting destruction. But when the resurrected lost are

1382
01:06:56,480 --> 01:06:59,800
Speaker 3: destroyed a second time and never live again, that is

1383
01:06:59,840 --> 01:07:01,800
Speaker 3: a lasting destruction. And I think that that's the point

1384
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:02,760
Speaker 3: that Paul is trying to make.

1385
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:04,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I would also add, you know, just a

1386
01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:08,800
Speaker 1: little nuanced not add maybe just just just say something

1387
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:11,680
Speaker 1: here about the you know, the word la thrus you know, ruination,

1388
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:14,720
Speaker 1: you know, and it could be you know, you know,

1389
01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:18,400
Speaker 1: that same word is used of, you know, in say

1390
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:21,960
Speaker 1: First Timothy chapter six, where the love of money has

1391
01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:25,320
Speaker 1: led to the ruination of persons. So not their obliteration,

1392
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:28,480
Speaker 1: but their ruination. And so you know again kind of

1393
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:31,560
Speaker 1: I think I can I see that, I say, okay,

1394
01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:34,200
Speaker 1: well it seems like it's not you know, obliteration or

1395
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:36,920
Speaker 1: annihilation here. But so anyway, I just wouldn't want to

1396
01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:37,320
Speaker 1: add that.

1397
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:39,480
Speaker 3: Well one thing, I think it's really what I love

1398
01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:42,080
Speaker 3: about what you just said. It highlights the importance of

1399
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:44,880
Speaker 3: recognizing that this debate doesn't come down to just an

1400
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:48,520
Speaker 3: individual word here or there. We have to look at context,

1401
01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:50,680
Speaker 3: We have to look at intertextuality, we have to look

1402
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:52,680
Speaker 3: at historical context. Those kinds of things and that's what

1403
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:53,959
Speaker 3: we're trying to involve through our book.

1404
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:57,560
Speaker 2: We're doing biblical exegesis for the most part here, but

1405
01:07:57,600 --> 01:08:00,080
Speaker 2: you also have chapters on systematic theology, pulling out and

1406
01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:02,440
Speaker 2: doctrines of God. That's another lens to look at this,

1407
01:08:02,520 --> 01:08:04,600
Speaker 2: which we're not really exploring. And some of this debate,

1408
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:07,360
Speaker 2: you're right, you point back towards Isaiah sixty six fifteen,

1409
01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:09,920
Speaker 2: and we see it in that language. But it raised

1410
01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:12,640
Speaker 2: a question we cannot probably go down this rabbit trail

1411
01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:15,760
Speaker 2: right now, is how the New Testament authors cite the

1412
01:08:15,840 --> 01:08:19,080
Speaker 2: Old Testament and their freedom to add meaning and interpret,

1413
01:08:19,160 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 2: and that adds a layer of complexity to this. But

1414
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:26,040
Speaker 2: let's move to the passages that pretty much everybody agrees.

1415
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:28,639
Speaker 2: And you spend some time in the conversation with Kirk

1416
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:29,960
Speaker 2: Cameron going into this one.

1417
01:08:30,080 --> 01:08:32,160
Speaker 5: So let me read.

1418
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:36,000
Speaker 2: We'll start with Revelation fourteen nine through eleven, and I'll

1419
01:08:36,040 --> 01:08:38,280
Speaker 2: read it for us and we get our take, it says,

1420
01:08:38,360 --> 01:08:41,600
Speaker 2: and another angel a third follow them, saying with a

1421
01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:45,560
Speaker 2: loud voice, if anyone worships the beast and its image

1422
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:49,439
Speaker 2: and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,

1423
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:53,240
Speaker 2: he will also drink the wine of God's wrath poured

1424
01:08:53,320 --> 01:08:56,200
Speaker 2: full strength into the cup of his anger, and he

1425
01:08:56,240 --> 01:08:59,320
Speaker 2: will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence

1426
01:08:59,360 --> 01:09:02,040
Speaker 2: of the Holy Angels and in the presence of the Lamb,

1427
01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:06,000
Speaker 2: and the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever.

1428
01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:09,479
Speaker 2: They have no rest day or night. These worshipers are

1429
01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:12,479
Speaker 2: the Beast and its image and whoever receives the mark

1430
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:15,720
Speaker 2: of its name. So this is talking about anyone who

1431
01:09:15,720 --> 01:09:19,720
Speaker 2: worships the Beast receives a mark. And we don't have

1432
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:21,680
Speaker 2: to go in any detail what that means or how

1433
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:26,040
Speaker 2: do identify that another conversation will get God's wrath, It

1434
01:09:26,040 --> 01:09:30,240
Speaker 2: says twice, tormented with fire and sulfur. The smoke of

1435
01:09:30,280 --> 01:09:32,920
Speaker 2: their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have

1436
01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:36,160
Speaker 2: no rest. Now we could go to Revelation twenty, but

1437
01:09:36,240 --> 01:09:39,840
Speaker 2: you've been pointing towards revelation a handful of times as

1438
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:42,240
Speaker 2: you think this brings some clarity. And then I'll come

1439
01:09:42,280 --> 01:09:43,880
Speaker 2: to you because I know you see this very very

1440
01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:45,719
Speaker 2: differently as well. But how do you think this makes

1441
01:09:46,240 --> 01:09:47,360
Speaker 2: clarifies you understanding?

1442
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:50,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, here you know, the torment as it were

1443
01:09:51,080 --> 01:09:55,120
Speaker 1: is seen as you know, having no rest, which you

1444
01:09:55,160 --> 01:09:58,120
Speaker 1: know for those who worshiped the beast. But you know,

1445
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:01,960
Speaker 1: the in contrast, verse thirteen, Revelation of fourteen talks about

1446
01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:06,320
Speaker 1: those who are you know, the saints who have died

1447
01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:10,000
Speaker 1: in the Lord and they cease from their labors, that

1448
01:10:10,000 --> 01:10:12,799
Speaker 1: they're you know, that they have rest from their labors,

1449
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:15,040
Speaker 1: that there is this kind of relief, as it were,

1450
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:19,080
Speaker 1: that they have you know, they have accomplished, what do

1451
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:21,200
Speaker 1: what they have faithfully lived out on earth and now

1452
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:24,479
Speaker 1: they have their rewards. So you have this contrast between

1453
01:10:24,920 --> 01:10:29,240
Speaker 1: the restlessness of the beast worshippers and you have the

1454
01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:32,000
Speaker 1: rest of the believers. And you know, a number of

1455
01:10:32,080 --> 01:10:36,040
Speaker 1: commentators see this as kind of a seemingly plain parallel

1456
01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:39,280
Speaker 1: of the final state. And again, obviously we're talking about

1457
01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:43,160
Speaker 1: consciousness here, conscious awareness, and so so again, I know

1458
01:10:43,200 --> 01:10:45,559
Speaker 1: we'll talk about other things like apocalyptic literature, et cetera.

1459
01:10:45,720 --> 01:10:47,800
Speaker 1: You know, the smoke rising. I think that's kind of

1460
01:10:47,800 --> 01:10:49,880
Speaker 1: a secondary sort of a thing. I think what is

1461
01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:51,840
Speaker 1: at issue is, you know that they have no rest

1462
01:10:51,960 --> 01:10:54,720
Speaker 1: day or night, and that seems to parallel the kind

1463
01:10:54,760 --> 01:10:58,120
Speaker 1: of language that is used of in Revelation twenty of

1464
01:10:58,640 --> 01:11:02,720
Speaker 1: of the devil a personal being, and you know he

1465
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:05,679
Speaker 1: has you know again he you know, he'll be tormented

1466
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:09,240
Speaker 1: day and night, forever and ever. And and then you

1467
01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:11,559
Speaker 1: know in the lake of fire, the final state. And

1468
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:13,960
Speaker 1: then it goes on in verse fifteen to talk about

1469
01:11:14,040 --> 01:11:16,559
Speaker 1: those who you know whose names are not written in

1470
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:18,280
Speaker 1: the Book of Life. You know they are in that

1471
01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:20,200
Speaker 1: same you know, the state of condemnation.

1472
01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:23,800
Speaker 2: Okay, so unmistakably here, presumably we're talking about the lake

1473
01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:25,880
Speaker 2: of fire in the final judgment with a two of

1474
01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:27,800
Speaker 2: you agree on that or would you not agree with that?

1475
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:30,920
Speaker 3: Well, to be honest, I lean toward thinking Revelation fourteen

1476
01:11:31,040 --> 01:11:32,840
Speaker 3: isn't about Hell. But but I don't I don't know.

1477
01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:34,479
Speaker 3: I don't make a big deal out of that because

1478
01:11:34,479 --> 01:11:36,160
Speaker 3: I think even if it is about Hell, it still

1479
01:11:36,160 --> 01:11:37,120
Speaker 3: clearly teaches my view.

1480
01:11:37,120 --> 01:11:40,519
Speaker 2: But well, okay, okay, parenh come back, let me come

1481
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:41,040
Speaker 2: back to that.

1482
01:11:41,640 --> 01:11:42,120
Speaker 1: I love it.

1483
01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:44,640
Speaker 2: So you believe this is the lake of fire. It's

1484
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:47,080
Speaker 2: referring to the same as the Revelation twenty. Okay, Yeah,

1485
01:11:47,120 --> 01:11:49,519
Speaker 2: and the key is not so much the smoke going

1486
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:52,320
Speaker 2: up forever and her. But there's this contrast, like we

1487
01:11:52,320 --> 01:11:56,120
Speaker 2: saw in Matthew twenty five right, eternal life, eternal punishment

1488
01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:59,160
Speaker 2: between they have no rest in this passage. It feels

1489
01:12:00,120 --> 01:12:03,479
Speaker 2: ugoing and like you can't sleep at night. Contrast with

1490
01:12:03,520 --> 01:12:06,000
Speaker 2: those in heaven, the New Heavens, and the New Earth

1491
01:12:06,120 --> 01:12:06,719
Speaker 2: who have rest.

1492
01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:06,920
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1493
01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:09,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, kind of illustrating what Romans chapter two is talking

1494
01:12:09,600 --> 01:12:12,320
Speaker 1: about of you know, of of glory, honor, immortality on

1495
01:12:12,439 --> 01:12:15,920
Speaker 1: the the reward, the rest that the believer has as

1496
01:12:15,960 --> 01:12:18,960
Speaker 1: opposed to the uh, you know, the you know, you know,

1497
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:23,240
Speaker 1: the distress and trouble that the unbeliever has in this

1498
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:25,200
Speaker 1: state of having no you know, you know, having no

1499
01:12:25,640 --> 01:12:27,960
Speaker 1: rest day or night. So that's the you know, so

1500
01:12:28,040 --> 01:12:30,599
Speaker 1: I would I would see that as you know, again

1501
01:12:30,760 --> 01:12:31,960
Speaker 1: ongoing conscious occations.

1502
01:12:32,120 --> 01:12:33,960
Speaker 2: That's that's the key where really a lot of this

1503
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:38,120
Speaker 2: debate comes. Is there ongoing conscious torment and existence. Having

1504
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:42,040
Speaker 2: no rest in your mind advances that case your thoughts.

1505
01:12:42,479 --> 01:12:44,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you're gonna have to give me a little

1506
01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:46,559
Speaker 3: bit of time. I'm gonna try to be as brief

1507
01:12:46,600 --> 01:12:49,240
Speaker 3: as I can, but it's really important because we are

1508
01:12:49,280 --> 01:12:52,479
Speaker 3: rethinking Hell and many conditionalists. We just admit that in

1509
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:55,800
Speaker 3: the vision that John is being shown, the loss are

1510
01:12:55,840 --> 01:12:59,960
Speaker 3: tormented forever and ever. I'm not denying that, we everythink

1511
01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:02,560
Speaker 3: don't deny that. But the question is what is the

1512
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:04,320
Speaker 3: nature of this kind of vision. And that's where I

1513
01:13:04,320 --> 01:13:07,519
Speaker 3: need to spend just a moment to help clear things up,

1514
01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:10,559
Speaker 3: because I think a lot of modern Westerners we come

1515
01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:13,000
Speaker 3: to this vision and revelation and we think that John

1516
01:13:13,080 --> 01:13:15,360
Speaker 3: is literally seeing the future, almost as if the future

1517
01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:18,280
Speaker 3: had been recorded on camera and the recording sent on

1518
01:13:18,320 --> 01:13:20,439
Speaker 3: a flash drive back in time to Paul who plugged

1519
01:13:20,439 --> 01:13:23,200
Speaker 3: it in, you know whatever. But that's sorry, John, but

1520
01:13:23,240 --> 01:13:25,160
Speaker 3: that's not the way that visions of the future work

1521
01:13:25,160 --> 01:13:27,000
Speaker 3: in scripture. So you go all the way back to

1522
01:13:27,120 --> 01:13:30,040
Speaker 3: Joseph's visions of the future, and then and then Pharaoh's

1523
01:13:30,080 --> 01:13:33,240
Speaker 3: and Pharaoh's workers, and then Daniel's visions of the future,

1524
01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:37,240
Speaker 3: and ebiconnezer visions of the future. Without exception. These are

1525
01:13:37,280 --> 01:13:40,240
Speaker 3: all visions in which the future is foretold or revealed

1526
01:13:40,360 --> 01:13:43,519
Speaker 3: to the seer, but by means of symbols. There is

1527
01:13:43,600 --> 01:13:45,679
Speaker 3: no vision of the future in scripture I've been able

1528
01:13:45,680 --> 01:13:48,720
Speaker 3: to find in which the future is literally depicted. So,

1529
01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:51,400
Speaker 3: for example, Pharaoh, in his vision of the future, he

1530
01:13:51,479 --> 01:13:53,920
Speaker 3: sees seven healthy cows come up out of the nile,

1531
01:13:54,200 --> 01:13:56,360
Speaker 3: and then seven sick, gaunt cows come up out of

1532
01:13:56,360 --> 01:13:58,439
Speaker 3: the nile and eat the first seven. But you know

1533
01:13:58,479 --> 01:14:01,040
Speaker 3: what he's told when Joseph interprets Pharaoh's dream, is that

1534
01:14:01,040 --> 01:14:03,679
Speaker 3: that has nothing to do with cows, right or the nile.

1535
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:07,000
Speaker 3: It's about there being seven years of plenty followed by

1536
01:14:07,040 --> 01:14:11,360
Speaker 3: seven years of famine. So the cows symbolize years, the

1537
01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:15,000
Speaker 3: fatness of the first seven symbolize abundance in the first

1538
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:17,639
Speaker 3: seven years, and the gauntness of the seven cows after

1539
01:14:17,680 --> 01:14:20,560
Speaker 3: them symbolize seven years of famine. All right, So the

1540
01:14:21,160 --> 01:14:22,840
Speaker 3: stage I'm trying to set here is just that the

1541
01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:24,800
Speaker 3: question we need to ask ourselves when we come to

1542
01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:28,120
Speaker 3: the Book of Revelation isn't primarily what is depicted in

1543
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:31,040
Speaker 3: the imagery. The primary question should be what does that

1544
01:14:31,080 --> 01:14:34,439
Speaker 3: depiction symbolize in reality? So then the question becomes, well,

1545
01:14:34,439 --> 01:14:36,960
Speaker 3: how would we arbitrate that? How would we answer that question?

1546
01:14:37,600 --> 01:14:39,479
Speaker 3: I think the one of the best ways to do

1547
01:14:39,520 --> 01:14:42,000
Speaker 3: that is to look and see if the same symbols

1548
01:14:42,000 --> 01:14:45,040
Speaker 3: converge elsewhere in the same vision, and as it turns out,

1549
01:14:45,080 --> 01:14:47,400
Speaker 3: they do so. In Revelation fourteen nine to eleven the

1550
01:14:47,560 --> 01:14:49,439
Speaker 3: wicked are made to the beast. Worshippers are made to

1551
01:14:49,520 --> 01:14:51,840
Speaker 3: drink of God's wrath as if from a cup. They're

1552
01:14:52,040 --> 01:14:54,439
Speaker 3: tormented in fire and sulfur, and then smoke rises them

1553
01:14:54,479 --> 01:14:56,000
Speaker 3: from them forever and ever. And then you've got the

1554
01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:58,599
Speaker 3: restlessness thing as well, although there's a translation there, thing

1555
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:01,000
Speaker 3: that we could discuss if if we have time. But

1556
01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:03,760
Speaker 3: those three symbols appear again just a few chapters later

1557
01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:07,360
Speaker 3: in Revelation eighteen and nineteen, where Mystery Babylon, this blood drunk,

1558
01:15:07,439 --> 01:15:09,840
Speaker 3: vampiric prostitute riding on the back of the seven headed,

1559
01:15:09,880 --> 01:15:12,920
Speaker 3: ten horned beast. She is made to drink God's wrath.

1560
01:15:13,160 --> 01:15:15,760
Speaker 3: She is tormented in fire, and at the beginning of

1561
01:15:15,840 --> 01:15:19,439
Speaker 3: chapter nineteen, Hallelujah chorus cries out, the smoke from her

1562
01:15:19,520 --> 01:15:22,719
Speaker 3: rises forever and ever, just like we read in Revelation fourteen.

1563
01:15:23,240 --> 01:15:25,519
Speaker 3: But at the end of Revelation chapter eighteen, an angel

1564
01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:28,680
Speaker 3: tells John what the fate is of the city that

1565
01:15:28,720 --> 01:15:31,599
Speaker 3: this woman represents. He says he throws a rock into

1566
01:15:31,600 --> 01:15:33,439
Speaker 3: the sea, and he says, so will the great Babylon,

1567
01:15:33,520 --> 01:15:36,160
Speaker 3: or so will the great city be found no more?

1568
01:15:36,360 --> 01:15:38,400
Speaker 3: She'll be thrown down the violence and be found no more.

1569
01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:40,439
Speaker 3: The people who inhabited her will be found no more.

1570
01:15:41,040 --> 01:15:44,439
Speaker 3: So the picture, these symbols converge in the very same

1571
01:15:44,520 --> 01:15:48,320
Speaker 3: vision to communicate the destruction of a city and the

1572
01:15:48,360 --> 01:15:51,280
Speaker 3: deaths of many of her inhabitants. And so that makes

1573
01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:53,160
Speaker 3: me think, why in the world would I think those

1574
01:15:53,200 --> 01:15:55,639
Speaker 3: symbols converge to mean something utterly different just a few

1575
01:15:55,720 --> 01:15:58,920
Speaker 3: chapters later in the very same vision that strains credulity

1576
01:15:58,960 --> 01:15:59,639
Speaker 3: in my thinking.

1577
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:00,599
Speaker 5: Okay, fair enough.

1578
01:16:00,640 --> 01:16:04,919
Speaker 2: So you're pointing more towards the genre of apocalyptic language.

1579
01:16:05,080 --> 01:16:08,519
Speaker 2: How these words appear elsewhere? And don't disagree that the

1580
01:16:08,560 --> 01:16:11,840
Speaker 2: words as we look at it, and maybe a literalistic

1581
01:16:11,920 --> 01:16:15,320
Speaker 2: fashion would communicate ongoing lack of right.

1582
01:16:16,760 --> 01:16:17,000
Speaker 3: Vision.

1583
01:16:17,080 --> 01:16:19,479
Speaker 5: Yea literally seeing he's describing that.

1584
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:21,679
Speaker 2: But the way we understand in the Book of Revelation

1585
01:16:21,880 --> 01:16:24,880
Speaker 2: would lean us differently, I think. So, okay, all right,

1586
01:16:24,880 --> 01:16:27,559
Speaker 2: fair enough, before we come to revelation twenty thoughts in

1587
01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:30,480
Speaker 2: this film talking about opening a can of worms with revelation.

1588
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:33,960
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, and I've used this analogy where you

1589
01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:36,680
Speaker 1: know you have of course, in chapter fourteen, you have

1590
01:16:37,040 --> 01:16:39,040
Speaker 1: everyone who works with the beast drinking from this cup

1591
01:16:39,080 --> 01:16:42,360
Speaker 1: of wrath. You have then chapter sixteen, you have you know, Babylon,

1592
01:16:42,520 --> 01:16:45,760
Speaker 1: you know, this city and rebellion against God, drinking from

1593
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:49,439
Speaker 1: that cup of wrath. But but you also have you know,

1594
01:16:49,720 --> 01:16:53,240
Speaker 1: I think of say, an analogy of Nazism, where you

1595
01:16:53,320 --> 01:16:56,439
Speaker 1: have Nazism, the system that has been set up against God,

1596
01:16:56,560 --> 01:16:59,800
Speaker 1: that's you know, inspired by uh, demonic forces and you know,

1597
01:16:59,920 --> 01:17:02,960
Speaker 1: the devil himself. But you know, you you know, in

1598
01:17:03,160 --> 01:17:07,840
Speaker 1: Nazi Germany, once you have the the trial trials of

1599
01:17:07,880 --> 01:17:12,360
Speaker 1: those who led the Nazi uh you know movement, uh,

1600
01:17:12,439 --> 01:17:15,000
Speaker 1: those who you know brought about the Second World War,

1601
01:17:15,160 --> 01:17:17,679
Speaker 1: those who you know you know, then destroying the symbols

1602
01:17:17,720 --> 01:17:19,680
Speaker 1: and the and the flags and so forth, and and

1603
01:17:19,760 --> 01:17:24,600
Speaker 1: basically removing any hint of Nazism. You still have intact

1604
01:17:25,240 --> 01:17:27,679
Speaker 1: the German nation, at least those who haven't been killed

1605
01:17:27,680 --> 01:17:30,479
Speaker 1: in the war, you have them. You know, my mom,

1606
01:17:30,800 --> 01:17:33,800
Speaker 1: My mom survived the bombing of Berlin and she came

1607
01:17:33,840 --> 01:17:36,320
Speaker 1: from Latvia, but uh, you know, and and so so, yeah,

1608
01:17:36,439 --> 01:17:41,959
Speaker 1: Germany was still largely intact, but yet without this demonic

1609
01:17:42,080 --> 01:17:45,679
Speaker 1: Nazi UH system that you know any longer in operation.

1610
01:17:46,040 --> 01:17:48,160
Speaker 1: And I think there's something like that that that is

1611
01:17:48,160 --> 01:17:50,040
Speaker 1: going on here. But again it's it's a matter of

1612
01:17:50,040 --> 01:17:52,559
Speaker 1: weiging things. And of course, you know you have apocalyptic literature,

1613
01:17:52,880 --> 01:17:55,720
Speaker 1: you'll have people on Chris's side who will say, no,

1614
01:17:55,880 --> 01:17:58,320
Speaker 1: this is how we interpret it. People you know like GK.

1615
01:17:58,479 --> 01:18:00,599
Speaker 1: Beale and David de Silva, who are you know, they

1616
01:18:00,640 --> 01:18:03,800
Speaker 1: know they're apocalyptic stuff too, and they and they will

1617
01:18:03,840 --> 01:18:05,439
Speaker 1: say no, I think this is how it ought to

1618
01:18:05,439 --> 01:18:10,040
Speaker 1: be interpreted. So again it's there are you know, there's

1619
01:18:10,080 --> 01:18:12,400
Speaker 1: a you can understand why people won't be agnostic on

1620
01:18:12,439 --> 01:18:13,000
Speaker 1: some of these things.

1621
01:18:13,040 --> 01:18:14,720
Speaker 3: Well, and I will just say, as much as I

1622
01:18:14,760 --> 01:18:17,519
Speaker 3: think these passages in Revelation teach my view pretty clearly,

1623
01:18:18,280 --> 01:18:21,680
Speaker 3: it does seem to me as though it's probably a

1624
01:18:21,720 --> 01:18:26,960
Speaker 3: little unwise to rest the case for a particular theological

1625
01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:31,480
Speaker 3: doctrine on the most enigmatic, most difficult book to interpret

1626
01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:34,320
Speaker 3: faithfully in all of Scripture, which I think is what

1627
01:18:34,439 --> 01:18:36,840
Speaker 3: some tradition, not all, but some traditionalists have done. As

1628
01:18:36,840 --> 01:18:38,639
Speaker 3: they said, look, if you want the clearest picture of Hell,

1629
01:18:38,680 --> 01:18:40,720
Speaker 3: if you want to it was all unclear until we

1630
01:18:40,760 --> 01:18:42,360
Speaker 3: got to the most unclear book of Scripture, and then

1631
01:18:42,400 --> 01:18:43,960
Speaker 3: all of a sudden Hell was made clear. I think

1632
01:18:43,960 --> 01:18:46,439
Speaker 3: that's a little. So what I would like to see

1633
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:48,360
Speaker 3: is for the case for eternal torment to be based

1634
01:18:48,360 --> 01:18:52,440
Speaker 3: more on texts that are less unclear than Revelation.

1635
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:56,000
Speaker 2: Okay, and Revelation twenty. You can see if this adds

1636
01:18:56,040 --> 01:18:59,680
Speaker 2: anything to it. Obviously, six chapters later, ten through ten

1637
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:03,080
Speaker 2: through five, the devil who had deceived them was thrown

1638
01:19:03,120 --> 01:19:06,439
Speaker 2: into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast

1639
01:19:06,600 --> 01:19:10,360
Speaker 2: and false prophet were, and they will be tormented day.

1640
01:19:10,320 --> 01:19:12,759
Speaker 5: And night, forever and forever.

1641
01:19:13,240 --> 01:19:16,080
Speaker 2: Describe some other things as gets the bottom verse thirteen.

1642
01:19:16,120 --> 01:19:17,720
Speaker 2: And the sea gave up the dead who were in it.

1643
01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:20,800
Speaker 2: Death and Hades gave up the dead who were thrown

1644
01:19:20,840 --> 01:19:23,160
Speaker 2: into it. They were judged, each one of them according

1645
01:19:23,160 --> 01:19:25,800
Speaker 2: to what they had done. Verse fourteen. Then Death and

1646
01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:29,840
Speaker 2: Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is

1647
01:19:29,880 --> 01:19:33,960
Speaker 2: the second death the lake of fire. And then verse fifteen,

1648
01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:36,799
Speaker 2: the one that's been quoted as much or any verse Revelation.

1649
01:19:37,400 --> 01:19:39,960
Speaker 2: And if anyone's name was not found written in the

1650
01:19:39,960 --> 01:19:44,000
Speaker 2: Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

1651
01:19:45,080 --> 01:19:48,519
Speaker 2: How do you think this adds to or clarifies your position?

1652
01:19:49,439 --> 01:19:51,960
Speaker 1: Well, you know, you have, of course the lake of fire,

1653
01:19:52,000 --> 01:19:55,400
Speaker 1: and you have you know, the devil a personal being

1654
01:19:56,680 --> 01:20:00,439
Speaker 1: being you know again and his demonic hope. You know,

1655
01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:02,479
Speaker 1: you know, the devil and his angels Matthew twenty five.

1656
01:20:03,120 --> 01:20:06,160
Speaker 1: You know, you know, being tormented day and night forever.

1657
01:20:06,680 --> 01:20:11,000
Speaker 1: And I think that in this setting, if the lake

1658
01:20:11,040 --> 01:20:14,760
Speaker 1: of Fire means you know, utter, you know, you know,

1659
01:20:15,040 --> 01:20:18,400
Speaker 1: obliteration of a of a person, annihilation of a of

1660
01:20:18,439 --> 01:20:22,840
Speaker 1: a personal being like Satan, He's going on his being tormented, day, night,

1661
01:20:22,880 --> 01:20:26,680
Speaker 1: forever and ever. Doesn't sound like that. So you have

1662
01:20:26,760 --> 01:20:29,920
Speaker 1: that kind of a juxtaposition, and so so I would

1663
01:20:30,200 --> 01:20:32,360
Speaker 1: I would say it, and not to mention that in

1664
01:20:32,400 --> 01:20:36,120
Speaker 1: Revelation twenty two fifteen you have mentioned of those who

1665
01:20:36,160 --> 01:20:38,800
Speaker 1: are outside the city. It seems like there's this ongoing

1666
01:20:39,160 --> 01:20:42,080
Speaker 1: existence of them. They're mentioned in twice in Revelation twenty

1667
01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:43,799
Speaker 1: one and then you know the you know, the dogs,

1668
01:20:43,840 --> 01:20:46,479
Speaker 1: the immoral and so forth, you know, the cowards, that

1669
01:20:46,560 --> 01:20:50,160
Speaker 1: these are outside the city of the Redeemed, And so

1670
01:20:50,200 --> 01:20:52,800
Speaker 1: it seems like there is this ongoing existence that they

1671
01:20:53,439 --> 01:20:57,679
Speaker 1: also experience again remove from the blessing of God. And

1672
01:20:57,720 --> 01:21:01,000
Speaker 1: you know, but God's not stuffing them out of existence.

1673
01:21:01,720 --> 01:21:04,800
Speaker 1: So again, like we said, these are these could be

1674
01:21:04,920 --> 01:21:09,799
Speaker 1: enigmatic passages, and revelation is a challenge to any interpreter.

1675
01:21:10,200 --> 01:21:12,640
Speaker 1: But again I see those things like, Okay, well, it

1676
01:21:12,640 --> 01:21:15,519
Speaker 1: seems like there is something else going on here besides

1677
01:21:15,600 --> 01:21:19,439
Speaker 1: mere destruction. Maybe we need to understand that language of destruction, perishing,

1678
01:21:19,479 --> 01:21:22,679
Speaker 1: and so forth in ways that are more like ruination

1679
01:21:23,080 --> 01:21:23,960
Speaker 1: rather than obliteration.

1680
01:21:24,320 --> 01:21:27,519
Speaker 2: Okay, so we have the devil, We've got the beasts.

1681
01:21:27,520 --> 01:21:31,000
Speaker 2: They're tormented day and night, forever and forever death and

1682
01:21:31,000 --> 01:21:32,320
Speaker 2: hate's thrown the lake of fire.

1683
01:21:33,120 --> 01:21:34,720
Speaker 5: Your point twenty two to fifteen one to.

1684
01:21:34,720 --> 01:21:38,160
Speaker 2: Read it says outside are the dogs and sorcerers and

1685
01:21:38,200 --> 01:21:42,240
Speaker 2: the sexually moral and murders and idolaters, and everyone who

1686
01:21:42,360 --> 01:21:46,400
Speaker 2: loves and practices falsehood. This seems to be a reference

1687
01:21:46,439 --> 01:21:50,599
Speaker 2: to outside the Kingdom of God, ongoing existence that matches

1688
01:21:50,680 --> 01:21:54,920
Speaker 2: Revelation fourteen and twenty is kind of ongoing torment. And

1689
01:21:54,960 --> 01:21:57,639
Speaker 2: so you're polling from other passages to say we see

1690
01:21:57,640 --> 01:22:01,800
Speaker 2: a theme here of conscious punishment that continues.

1691
01:22:01,479 --> 01:22:03,240
Speaker 1: Right, Yes, Yeah, And I guess the city would be

1692
01:22:03,280 --> 01:22:06,439
Speaker 1: kind of tantamount to, or kind of the virtually equivalent

1693
01:22:06,439 --> 01:22:08,040
Speaker 1: of the New heavens and the New Earth. You know,

1694
01:22:08,080 --> 01:22:09,880
Speaker 1: all the things that have been restored and good, and

1695
01:22:09,960 --> 01:22:13,240
Speaker 1: of course the city I think is strongly emphasizing the

1696
01:22:13,240 --> 01:22:15,800
Speaker 1: people of God and the redeemed people of God in

1697
01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:19,880
Speaker 1: you know, the language of jewels and so forth. But yeah,

1698
01:22:19,920 --> 01:22:20,679
Speaker 1: that's that's how.

1699
01:22:20,560 --> 01:22:23,080
Speaker 5: I, okay, got it. That's helpful, Chris.

1700
01:22:23,360 --> 01:22:25,559
Speaker 3: Well, So, first of all, I'm gonna try to be

1701
01:22:25,600 --> 01:22:29,120
Speaker 3: as brief as I can. Number one, I don't think that, Paul,

1702
01:22:29,160 --> 01:22:31,640
Speaker 3: you're understanding the end of Revelation properly. At the end

1703
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:34,920
Speaker 3: of chapter twenty two, what we're dealing with.

1704
01:22:34,840 --> 01:22:35,599
Speaker 1: This it was on GK.

1705
01:22:35,640 --> 01:22:37,840
Speaker 3: Bial by the way, well, fair enough, fair enough, And

1706
01:22:37,880 --> 01:22:39,360
Speaker 3: I have the utmost of respect for GK.

1707
01:22:39,400 --> 01:22:39,639
Speaker 8: Bill.

1708
01:22:40,360 --> 01:22:43,439
Speaker 3: He's a hero of mine. I just think he doesn't

1709
01:22:43,439 --> 01:22:46,519
Speaker 3: follow his own great scholarship to the to the extent

1710
01:22:46,520 --> 01:22:48,920
Speaker 3: that he should. But anyway, so, for example, at the

1711
01:22:48,960 --> 01:22:51,680
Speaker 3: end of Revelation twenty two, chapter twenty two, we're no

1712
01:22:51,720 --> 01:22:54,200
Speaker 3: longer in the vision. This is a common misconception. The

1713
01:22:54,320 --> 01:22:57,280
Speaker 3: vision ended halfway through chapter twenty two, where John then says,

1714
01:22:57,360 --> 01:22:59,599
Speaker 3: these are the things that I saw blah blah blah.

1715
01:22:59,800 --> 01:23:01,720
Speaker 3: And now we're in what's what we might call the

1716
01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:06,120
Speaker 3: epilogue of John's epistle that that we call revelation. So

1717
01:23:06,760 --> 01:23:09,320
Speaker 3: I think it's a mistake to think that what John

1718
01:23:09,400 --> 01:23:11,479
Speaker 3: is saying is the wicked are still there outside the city.

1719
01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:13,880
Speaker 3: I mean, the author of Hebrews writes about us as

1720
01:23:13,880 --> 01:23:15,880
Speaker 3: having come to the heavenly city now in the here

1721
01:23:15,920 --> 01:23:19,080
Speaker 3: and now, So I think this is language of whether

1722
01:23:19,120 --> 01:23:21,479
Speaker 3: we are in Christ or not in Christ. Right now,

1723
01:23:21,520 --> 01:23:23,800
Speaker 3: I don't think it's about the vision. But again, I've

1724
01:23:23,800 --> 01:23:27,799
Speaker 3: already acknowledged that the vision depicts or portrays everlasting conscious

1725
01:23:27,800 --> 01:23:29,439
Speaker 3: torment on the part of the wicked, So it wouldn't

1726
01:23:29,439 --> 01:23:32,120
Speaker 3: surprise me if they're still being depicted outside of the gates.

1727
01:23:32,200 --> 01:23:34,720
Speaker 3: And that's fine. The second point I want to make

1728
01:23:34,800 --> 01:23:38,320
Speaker 3: is I acknowledge that it is strange. It seems awkward

1729
01:23:38,840 --> 01:23:42,880
Speaker 3: that a that one might use a symbol of everlasting

1730
01:23:43,120 --> 01:23:47,120
Speaker 3: conscious torment as a symbol for death. That does seem strange.

1731
01:23:47,240 --> 01:23:51,960
Speaker 3: But we've already talked about pictures of death allegedly being

1732
01:23:52,040 --> 01:23:55,360
Speaker 3: used as symbols for eternal torment. Why is it only

1733
01:23:55,400 --> 01:23:56,639
Speaker 3: one direction that we can go?

1734
01:23:57,080 --> 01:23:57,240
Speaker 4: Right?

1735
01:23:57,280 --> 01:23:59,680
Speaker 3: So the picture of corpses in Isaiah sixty six, why

1736
01:23:59,680 --> 01:24:02,160
Speaker 3: can that be a symbol for everlasting torment? If everlasting

1737
01:24:02,200 --> 01:24:05,040
Speaker 3: torment can't be a symbol for annihilation. This just doesn't

1738
01:24:05,040 --> 01:24:07,760
Speaker 3: make much sense to me. But those are those are

1739
01:24:07,880 --> 01:24:09,760
Speaker 3: minor points. Here are the main points I want to make.

1740
01:24:10,200 --> 01:24:13,519
Speaker 3: Number one, everything thrown in that lake of fire is

1741
01:24:13,560 --> 01:24:16,000
Speaker 3: a conscious entity in John's vision, the Devil, the beast,

1742
01:24:16,040 --> 01:24:19,160
Speaker 3: the false prophet resurrected human kind and sorry for hitting

1743
01:24:19,160 --> 01:24:21,760
Speaker 3: your your laptop there again. And Death and Hades. So

1744
01:24:21,800 --> 01:24:24,719
Speaker 3: Death and Hades aren't abstractions in John's vision. They're they're

1745
01:24:24,720 --> 01:24:27,880
Speaker 3: the fourth horsemen of the apocalypse. In the Revelation chapter six,

1746
01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:30,400
Speaker 3: Death is riding the pale white horse, and Hades is

1747
01:24:30,400 --> 01:24:32,960
Speaker 3: following in kind of like a squire. So these are

1748
01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:36,320
Speaker 3: conscious beings in the imagery thrown into the lake of fire,

1749
01:24:36,360 --> 01:24:39,400
Speaker 3: and I think Revelation twenty thirteen and fourteen. But what

1750
01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:42,880
Speaker 3: is their fate in that fire symbolized in reality? Well,

1751
01:24:42,880 --> 01:24:45,000
Speaker 3: just a few verses later, God says from the Throne,

1752
01:24:45,040 --> 01:24:48,719
Speaker 3: I think it's Revelation twenty one four hathanatas st i etty,

1753
01:24:49,200 --> 01:24:52,160
Speaker 3: death shall be no more. And this is drawing upon

1754
01:24:52,200 --> 01:24:55,400
Speaker 3: Isaiah twenty five, where Yahweh promises to swallow up death forever.

1755
01:24:55,640 --> 01:24:58,680
Speaker 3: On Corinthians fifteen, death is the last enemy to be destroyed.

1756
01:24:59,200 --> 01:25:02,120
Speaker 3: So the picture of these conscious horsemen being thrown into

1757
01:25:02,120 --> 01:25:04,840
Speaker 3: the lake of fire seems to symbolize the annihilation of

1758
01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:07,719
Speaker 3: death itself. Once all of God's enemies have been destroyed

1759
01:25:07,720 --> 01:25:10,240
Speaker 3: and his redeemed people are immortal and live forever, the

1760
01:25:10,320 --> 01:25:13,400
Speaker 3: existential threat of death is gone, well, nobody will ever

1761
01:25:13,439 --> 01:25:15,800
Speaker 3: have to fear death again. It will have been annihilated.

1762
01:25:16,000 --> 01:25:19,080
Speaker 3: So that's one reason why I think this symbolism symbolizes

1763
01:25:19,200 --> 01:25:21,519
Speaker 3: my view. But the one other thing that's really important

1764
01:25:21,600 --> 01:25:23,519
Speaker 3: is that when John and God himself say that the

1765
01:25:23,600 --> 01:25:26,760
Speaker 3: lake of fire is the second death, they're not labeling

1766
01:25:26,920 --> 01:25:29,639
Speaker 3: the lake of fire. They're not saying, you know, there's

1767
01:25:29,680 --> 01:25:31,479
Speaker 3: a sense in which the lake of fire is death.

1768
01:25:31,600 --> 01:25:34,360
Speaker 3: They're doing what all throughout scripture is known as interpretation.

1769
01:25:34,960 --> 01:25:37,920
Speaker 3: When Pharaoh sees those vision the vision of the seven cows,

1770
01:25:38,360 --> 01:25:42,439
Speaker 3: Joseph says, the seven cows are seven years. The seven

1771
01:25:42,520 --> 01:25:45,960
Speaker 3: cows are seven years. When Daniel interprets the dreams of

1772
01:25:45,960 --> 01:25:49,000
Speaker 3: nebecon Nezer, he says, the tree is you, or this

1773
01:25:49,200 --> 01:25:52,000
Speaker 3: or the head of gold is you. So when John

1774
01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:54,040
Speaker 3: and God say the lake of fire is the second death,

1775
01:25:54,080 --> 01:25:57,600
Speaker 3: they are telling you the lake of fire symbolizes the

1776
01:25:57,640 --> 01:26:00,320
Speaker 3: second death. Well, so then what the second death means? Well,

1777
01:26:00,360 --> 01:26:03,080
Speaker 3: the only place in intertestamental Jewish literature that we find

1778
01:26:03,080 --> 01:26:05,960
Speaker 3: the expression second death is in what's known as the targums,

1779
01:26:05,960 --> 01:26:08,920
Speaker 3: the Aramaic translations of the hebrewal Testament that were compiled

1780
01:26:09,320 --> 01:26:12,519
Speaker 3: after Jesus, but have oral traditions stretching back into the

1781
01:26:12,520 --> 01:26:16,439
Speaker 3: time before Jesus. And everywhere that in that tradition that

1782
01:26:16,479 --> 01:26:18,599
Speaker 3: the phrase second death appears, and sometimes by the way,

1783
01:26:18,640 --> 01:26:21,880
Speaker 3: it appears next to the word gehenna. Everywhere it appears

1784
01:26:21,920 --> 01:26:24,400
Speaker 3: in the Aramaic targems, it means literally dying a second time.

1785
01:26:24,880 --> 01:26:27,520
Speaker 3: So when John interprets the lake of fire is symbolizing

1786
01:26:27,520 --> 01:26:30,120
Speaker 3: the second death for people, he's saying, he's teaching my

1787
01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:33,200
Speaker 3: view just matter of factly. This scene I've just described

1788
01:26:33,200 --> 01:26:34,960
Speaker 3: for you that God showed me while I'm in exile

1789
01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:37,720
Speaker 3: on the island of pat Moss. This scene symbolizes this

1790
01:26:37,760 --> 01:26:40,800
Speaker 3: cosmic event all of you already expect to happen, where

1791
01:26:40,800 --> 01:26:42,599
Speaker 3: the resurrected loss are going to die a second time,

1792
01:26:42,680 --> 01:26:44,920
Speaker 3: never to participate, participate in the life to come.

1793
01:26:46,760 --> 01:26:50,400
Speaker 5: Did you do that in one breath? I was like,

1794
01:26:50,560 --> 01:26:52,360
Speaker 5: I'm not sure he breathed in that.

1795
01:26:52,680 --> 01:26:54,879
Speaker 3: I have these arguments a lot, so it just comes.

1796
01:26:54,880 --> 01:26:58,040
Speaker 2: Okaya, there was like five or six points which are

1797
01:26:58,080 --> 01:26:59,639
Speaker 2: a part of your case, which is fair you walk

1798
01:26:59,680 --> 01:27:02,040
Speaker 2: through the book. There's no way we're going to be

1799
01:27:02,080 --> 01:27:05,320
Speaker 2: able to dissect each one of those points anything. I'll

1800
01:27:05,320 --> 01:27:08,000
Speaker 2: give you one comeback on this one before we keep going,

1801
01:27:08,080 --> 01:27:10,240
Speaker 2: unless you're like, we've covered it and go.

1802
01:27:10,400 --> 01:27:14,160
Speaker 1: No, I mean, I'll just offer a few points. Well,

1803
01:27:14,520 --> 01:27:18,080
Speaker 1: I'll just keep going, I would say, even you know,

1804
01:27:18,800 --> 01:27:23,519
Speaker 1: initially I had removed from consideration Revelation twenty two fifteen

1805
01:27:23,800 --> 01:27:27,720
Speaker 1: those outside the city, but GK. Beal himself, in his

1806
01:27:27,880 --> 01:27:31,519
Speaker 1: shorter commentary, actually brings us back to the same list

1807
01:27:31,560 --> 01:27:36,120
Speaker 1: that is mentioned within the apocalyptic language of Revelation twenty one.

1808
01:27:36,720 --> 01:27:39,720
Speaker 1: So not outside the vision any longer in twenty two

1809
01:27:39,720 --> 01:27:43,280
Speaker 1: to fifteen. But still, you know, you have those vice

1810
01:27:43,360 --> 01:27:47,080
Speaker 1: lists mentioned twice in Revelation twenty one. So it seems

1811
01:27:47,120 --> 01:27:49,479
Speaker 1: that there is carryover. It's not just a matter of

1812
01:27:49,640 --> 01:27:53,519
Speaker 1: what is going on in terms of you know, some

1813
01:27:54,560 --> 01:27:56,200
Speaker 1: as we're confused vision. I think there's a kind of

1814
01:27:56,240 --> 01:28:00,400
Speaker 1: continuity that this is something that is a per minute

1815
01:28:00,439 --> 01:28:03,559
Speaker 1: fixture that this is something that is ongoing and it

1816
01:28:03,600 --> 01:28:05,680
Speaker 1: is connected with a GK. Beal in that commentary, the

1817
01:28:05,680 --> 01:28:08,560
Speaker 1: sort of commentary does say, no, this does connect it,

1818
01:28:09,080 --> 01:28:12,920
Speaker 1: that there is this seeming ongoing conscious existence of those

1819
01:28:12,960 --> 01:28:15,280
Speaker 1: who are outside the city. But I'll have to leave

1820
01:28:15,320 --> 01:28:16,040
Speaker 1: it at that, all.

1821
01:28:16,040 --> 01:28:18,440
Speaker 5: Right, fair enough, I've got a ton more questions.

1822
01:28:18,800 --> 01:28:20,840
Speaker 2: But I think what might be most interesting is if

1823
01:28:20,840 --> 01:28:22,599
Speaker 2: we go to some of the students again. We have

1824
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:25,799
Speaker 2: some undergrad students from a class I teach gospel, Kingdom culture.

1825
01:28:26,120 --> 01:28:29,200
Speaker 2: We have some theology students, philosophy students, a science and

1826
01:28:29,280 --> 01:28:31,920
Speaker 2: religion student, which is awesome. So you can ask you

1827
01:28:31,960 --> 01:28:34,200
Speaker 2: a question, and I want you can ask it directed

1828
01:28:34,240 --> 01:28:36,439
Speaker 2: to somebody if you want to have your respond and

1829
01:28:36,479 --> 01:28:39,479
Speaker 2: then the other person, whoever is not directed, to give

1830
01:28:39,520 --> 01:28:41,800
Speaker 2: your two cents on it. And then I'll bring us

1831
01:28:41,880 --> 01:28:44,479
Speaker 2: back and ask a few questions as well. So do

1832
01:28:44,520 --> 01:28:46,920
Speaker 2: we have the mic ready to rock and roll for

1833
01:28:47,040 --> 01:28:47,599
Speaker 2: the students?

1834
01:28:49,960 --> 01:28:50,680
Speaker 5: Are we good to go?

1835
01:28:50,760 --> 01:28:51,040
Speaker 1: Here?

1836
01:28:51,439 --> 01:28:51,679
Speaker 5: Check?

1837
01:28:51,720 --> 01:28:51,880
Speaker 3: One?

1838
01:28:51,920 --> 01:28:56,519
Speaker 5: Two, three, four? Took check, Well.

1839
01:28:56,360 --> 01:29:02,479
Speaker 2: He's checking the mic. So that awkward moment maybe well

1840
01:29:02,800 --> 01:29:04,600
Speaker 2: that later, maybe not. We'll just leave it.

1841
01:29:04,640 --> 01:29:05,200
Speaker 5: In because.

1842
01:29:06,720 --> 01:29:12,280
Speaker 2: You know, like the conversation is messy on many levels.

1843
01:29:10,960 --> 01:29:11,479
Speaker 1: We're living.

1844
01:29:12,479 --> 01:29:14,400
Speaker 2: You tell me if you need to pivot to another question,

1845
01:29:15,040 --> 01:29:19,800
Speaker 2: like one second. So he used metaphorical language when he

1846
01:29:19,840 --> 01:29:22,200
Speaker 2: said one second, just for the record, he didn't actually

1847
01:29:22,240 --> 01:29:24,040
Speaker 2: mean it. The question is what did he mean by

1848
01:29:24,080 --> 01:29:24,719
Speaker 2: one second?

1849
01:29:25,120 --> 01:29:27,760
Speaker 5: We're good to go? Okay, all right? Who'd like to

1850
01:29:27,760 --> 01:29:28,080
Speaker 5: be first?

1851
01:29:28,160 --> 01:29:28,840
Speaker 1: Go ahead? Please?

1852
01:29:29,760 --> 01:29:33,120
Speaker 4: Hi, I'm Unice. Thank you so much for uh the conversation.

1853
01:29:33,400 --> 01:29:36,719
Speaker 4: It was really intriguing. I have a question for Chris.

1854
01:29:37,479 --> 01:29:41,599
Speaker 4: I think I heard you say that there is somewhere

1855
01:29:41,600 --> 01:29:44,200
Speaker 4: in the Bible that it says that God gives the

1856
01:29:44,240 --> 01:29:51,720
Speaker 4: believers eternal life. Non believers not that. And I know

1857
01:29:51,760 --> 01:29:54,559
Speaker 4: that every lasting life and eternal life are also different.

1858
01:29:54,880 --> 01:29:58,360
Speaker 4: Would you what would you think about the interpretation of

1859
01:29:58,520 --> 01:30:03,960
Speaker 4: eternal life as God himself instead of my life being

1860
01:30:04,320 --> 01:30:06,120
Speaker 4: eternal or everlasting.

1861
01:30:06,760 --> 01:30:10,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm open to that possibility. But it seems

1862
01:30:10,000 --> 01:30:13,760
Speaker 3: to me that the adjective ionios really does have a

1863
01:30:13,800 --> 01:30:17,559
Speaker 3: temporal sense to it. It derives from It's a cognate

1864
01:30:17,640 --> 01:30:19,400
Speaker 3: of the noun ione, which is where we get the

1865
01:30:19,400 --> 01:30:23,759
Speaker 3: English word eon from. The adjective ionios really does seem

1866
01:30:23,800 --> 01:30:26,960
Speaker 3: to mean something like in perpetuity, everlasting, or at the

1867
01:30:27,040 --> 01:30:31,080
Speaker 3: very least indefinitely long. So I just have not yet

1868
01:30:31,080 --> 01:30:34,559
Speaker 3: been persuaded that that adjective means something more like of

1869
01:30:34,600 --> 01:30:36,600
Speaker 3: divine quality or something like that, which is what it

1870
01:30:36,640 --> 01:30:38,000
Speaker 3: sounds like you're proposing.

1871
01:30:40,120 --> 01:30:44,000
Speaker 4: Have you seen that word in the New or Old

1872
01:30:44,040 --> 01:30:47,240
Speaker 4: Testament used in a divine way more? Though?

1873
01:30:47,840 --> 01:30:49,479
Speaker 3: No, I haven't, and that's part of the reason why

1874
01:30:49,520 --> 01:30:52,200
Speaker 3: I remain so. For example, the closest I think we

1875
01:30:52,240 --> 01:30:55,280
Speaker 3: come to are places where it clearly doesn't mean everlasting.

1876
01:30:56,400 --> 01:31:00,000
Speaker 3: I think there's places where, like ancient mountains are called everlasting,

1877
01:31:00,200 --> 01:31:02,759
Speaker 3: which of course they're not everlasting, they're finite and duration.

1878
01:31:03,320 --> 01:31:07,200
Speaker 3: But we use the language of forever that way even nowadays. Right, Oh,

1879
01:31:07,439 --> 01:31:10,320
Speaker 3: that took me forever. We don't mean literally forever. We

1880
01:31:10,600 --> 01:31:12,519
Speaker 3: just mean it took me an awful long time. And

1881
01:31:12,560 --> 01:31:14,439
Speaker 3: I think that that's how sometimes the word is used.

1882
01:31:14,680 --> 01:31:19,000
Speaker 3: But I don't see it used anywhere where it doesn't

1883
01:31:19,000 --> 01:31:22,080
Speaker 3: seem to have this sense of protracted time. But again,

1884
01:31:22,080 --> 01:31:23,120
Speaker 3: I'm open to being persuaded.

1885
01:31:23,200 --> 01:31:25,240
Speaker 5: One more fault and then I'll give someone else a chance.

1886
01:31:25,840 --> 01:31:29,880
Speaker 4: Or yeah, I just wanted to say, so you don't

1887
01:31:29,960 --> 01:31:35,280
Speaker 4: see the difference between eternal life and everylasting life in

1888
01:31:35,320 --> 01:31:37,360
Speaker 4: the Greek or Hebrew so much.

1889
01:31:37,200 --> 01:31:40,360
Speaker 3: I'm aware of no distinction between those two expressions that

1890
01:31:40,360 --> 01:31:43,520
Speaker 3: there is no anywhere where you see the translation everlasting

1891
01:31:43,560 --> 01:31:45,839
Speaker 3: life in if it's Greek, if it's a New Testament

1892
01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:48,800
Speaker 3: or the septuagen translation of the Old Testament, it's going

1893
01:31:48,840 --> 01:31:51,360
Speaker 3: to be ionias zoe or something like that. And by

1894
01:31:51,400 --> 01:31:54,360
Speaker 3: the way, Zoe life doesn't mean some special quality of life.

1895
01:31:54,400 --> 01:31:56,880
Speaker 3: When we talked about Luke sixteen, the rich man is

1896
01:31:56,920 --> 01:32:00,160
Speaker 3: told in your Zoe, in your life you experience to

1897
01:32:00,240 --> 01:32:02,639
Speaker 3: good things. But this was a terrible wicked man, right,

1898
01:32:02,880 --> 01:32:06,240
Speaker 3: So it just means life, and everlasting life just means enduring,

1899
01:32:06,479 --> 01:32:08,519
Speaker 3: unending life as more as I can tell.

1900
01:32:08,640 --> 01:32:10,479
Speaker 2: Thank you, good stuff, Paul, you need a way, and

1901
01:32:11,320 --> 01:32:14,200
Speaker 2: all right, let's go in the next question. Please thank

1902
01:32:14,200 --> 01:32:14,640
Speaker 2: you for that one.

1903
01:32:14,720 --> 01:32:19,519
Speaker 8: Unis Hello, Chris, I'm rouelle. I just had a question,

1904
01:32:20,720 --> 01:32:24,839
Speaker 8: maybe a clarification. I'm kind of confused on your position

1905
01:32:24,960 --> 01:32:30,639
Speaker 8: when you mentioned about like whether like the wicked will

1906
01:32:30,720 --> 01:32:33,640
Speaker 8: cease to exist or cease to live, Like, can you

1907
01:32:34,080 --> 01:32:35,320
Speaker 8: elaborate more on that.

1908
01:32:35,600 --> 01:32:37,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's at least two ways to be dead. Okay,

1909
01:32:38,680 --> 01:32:40,400
Speaker 3: one way to be dead is your body's dead, but

1910
01:32:40,439 --> 01:32:43,280
Speaker 3: your soul continues to exist. And that's what most Christians

1911
01:32:43,280 --> 01:32:45,439
Speaker 3: have believed is the case. With the first death in

1912
01:32:45,479 --> 01:32:48,400
Speaker 3: the intermediate state. Another way to be dead is to

1913
01:32:48,479 --> 01:32:51,200
Speaker 3: be dead in body and in soul, because your soul

1914
01:32:51,560 --> 01:32:55,280
Speaker 3: has been has been killed as well. Now, what is

1915
01:32:55,320 --> 01:32:59,200
Speaker 3: the soul in sort of in classical Christian anthropological dualism,

1916
01:32:59,479 --> 01:33:03,400
Speaker 3: it's the mond, right, It's pure consciousness. So now think

1917
01:33:03,439 --> 01:33:06,639
Speaker 3: about what is characteristic of a dead body. It's inert

1918
01:33:06,760 --> 01:33:11,519
Speaker 3: it's inanimate, it's lifeless, it's motionless, it's inactive. Right. If

1919
01:33:11,560 --> 01:33:15,040
Speaker 3: all of those things are true of our consciousness itself,

1920
01:33:15,240 --> 01:33:20,000
Speaker 3: then there is no consciousness anymore. And so when death

1921
01:33:20,040 --> 01:33:22,439
Speaker 3: extends not only from the body but also to the soul,

1922
01:33:22,920 --> 01:33:25,800
Speaker 3: the person ceases to exist, but not in some metaphysical

1923
01:33:25,840 --> 01:33:28,479
Speaker 3: sense like the Thanos example I gave a snapping his finger.

1924
01:33:29,280 --> 01:33:31,680
Speaker 3: They cease to exist as conscious beings. They're dead and

1925
01:33:31,760 --> 01:33:35,479
Speaker 3: unconscious forever, never to live or experience in anything ever again.

1926
01:33:35,960 --> 01:33:37,880
Speaker 3: So I don't mind saying that, Yes, we believe the

1927
01:33:37,920 --> 01:33:39,960
Speaker 3: loss eventually cease to exist in hell, but that's not

1928
01:33:40,040 --> 01:33:43,000
Speaker 3: our emphasis. Our emphasis. They cease to live. The death

1929
01:33:43,000 --> 01:33:45,400
Speaker 3: extends to their souls as well, and as a consequence

1930
01:33:45,400 --> 01:33:46,880
Speaker 3: of that, they no longer exist.

1931
01:33:47,439 --> 01:33:51,400
Speaker 8: So you just said that you don't emphasis emphasize on

1932
01:33:52,200 --> 01:33:56,240
Speaker 8: them seizing to exist. But then I don't see how

1933
01:33:57,160 --> 01:33:59,640
Speaker 8: seazing to live like I feel it's like seizing to

1934
01:33:59,720 --> 01:34:04,679
Speaker 8: live entailed ceasing too, like ceasing to be conscious, seems

1935
01:34:04,720 --> 01:34:06,599
Speaker 8: to be ceasing to exist.

1936
01:34:06,640 --> 01:34:09,680
Speaker 2: Okay, let me ask for clarification. You're not saying there opposites,

1937
01:34:09,800 --> 01:34:12,200
Speaker 2: it's one or the other. Is it more a matter

1938
01:34:12,320 --> 01:34:14,559
Speaker 2: of emphasis in your position?

1939
01:34:14,640 --> 01:34:16,400
Speaker 3: It's a matter of emphasis. It's a matter of what

1940
01:34:16,439 --> 01:34:18,759
Speaker 3: we mean by the what we think the biblical authors

1941
01:34:18,760 --> 01:34:20,639
Speaker 3: mean by their language, and we think what they mean

1942
01:34:20,680 --> 01:34:23,520
Speaker 3: by the language of destruction is the death, the execution

1943
01:34:23,760 --> 01:34:28,040
Speaker 3: of the lost, and Jesus was executed, but he didn't

1944
01:34:28,040 --> 01:34:33,000
Speaker 3: cease to exist, if you know, an anthropological duellist Christian

1945
01:34:33,040 --> 01:34:36,360
Speaker 3: annihilationist still thinks that Jesus's soul can continued to exist

1946
01:34:36,400 --> 01:34:40,759
Speaker 3: between its death and resurrection. So death can occur without

1947
01:34:40,800 --> 01:34:44,439
Speaker 3: ceasing to exist, but it can also occur with ceasing

1948
01:34:44,479 --> 01:34:47,240
Speaker 3: to exist. And the reason that we think that the

1949
01:34:47,280 --> 01:34:50,360
Speaker 3: second death entails a cessation of existence as well is

1950
01:34:50,439 --> 01:34:52,639
Speaker 3: number one because Jesus says death will extend not only

1951
01:34:52,720 --> 01:34:54,160
Speaker 3: to the body, but also to the soul and the

1952
01:34:54,200 --> 01:34:57,720
Speaker 3: second death and number two philosophers you'll know this, for

1953
01:34:57,760 --> 01:35:00,919
Speaker 3: philosophers have long argued that the only way that resurrection

1954
01:35:01,040 --> 01:35:04,439
Speaker 3: is even possible is if a soul continues to exist

1955
01:35:04,439 --> 01:35:07,120
Speaker 3: between death and resurrection. So the reason Jesus the soul

1956
01:35:07,160 --> 01:35:09,280
Speaker 3: continues to exist between death and resurrection and the way

1957
01:35:09,479 --> 01:35:11,280
Speaker 3: and the reason ours do is because we're going to

1958
01:35:11,280 --> 01:35:13,760
Speaker 3: be resurrected. But when the wicked are slain in hell,

1959
01:35:14,120 --> 01:35:17,000
Speaker 3: that's for their second death and they'll never be resurrected again.

1960
01:35:17,320 --> 01:35:19,960
Speaker 3: There's no purpose for God to keep their souls in

1961
01:35:20,000 --> 01:35:22,479
Speaker 3: some kind of half human half existence, which is what

1962
01:35:22,520 --> 01:35:25,120
Speaker 3: an intermediate state is. Does that help it all?

1963
01:35:25,439 --> 01:35:25,679
Speaker 2: Yes?

1964
01:35:25,840 --> 01:35:29,280
Speaker 8: Yea, thank you? So you just when you say Jesus

1965
01:35:29,320 --> 01:35:32,040
Speaker 8: ceased to exist, I don't just okay.

1966
01:35:33,080 --> 01:35:34,880
Speaker 5: That'd be serious heresy.

1967
01:35:34,840 --> 01:35:39,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, we can all agree on that, right all right,

1968
01:35:39,160 --> 01:35:41,519
Speaker 2: hold the mic right up there like ice cream, just

1969
01:35:41,560 --> 01:35:43,920
Speaker 2: don't lick it. But that was a wonderful question, and

1970
01:35:43,960 --> 01:35:46,280
Speaker 2: a follow up thank you, just to make sure we

1971
01:35:46,360 --> 01:35:49,639
Speaker 2: pick it up. But other questions, Way to go, students,

1972
01:35:49,680 --> 01:35:51,360
Speaker 2: So far I got planet asked, But I don't give

1973
01:35:51,400 --> 01:35:55,680
Speaker 2: you as much opportunities as you have for Chris or

1974
01:35:55,760 --> 01:35:56,160
Speaker 2: for Paul.

1975
01:35:57,520 --> 01:36:02,559
Speaker 3: Hello, I'm rocco. A question for Chris. I don't mind.

1976
01:36:02,600 --> 01:36:06,160
Speaker 3: I love it. Yes, what do you think Revelation fourteen

1977
01:36:06,240 --> 01:36:07,360
Speaker 3: does not teach about Hell?

1978
01:36:07,520 --> 01:36:10,120
Speaker 5: Because he said something about that, So.

1979
01:36:10,640 --> 01:36:13,880
Speaker 3: I want to be careful. Again, plenty of conditionalists, plenty

1980
01:36:13,880 --> 01:36:15,680
Speaker 3: of annihilationists do think that has to do with Hell.

1981
01:36:15,760 --> 01:36:17,320
Speaker 3: So I don't want to make a big deal out

1982
01:36:17,320 --> 01:36:20,320
Speaker 3: of this. But I'm what's known as, unfortunately is known

1983
01:36:20,360 --> 01:36:22,600
Speaker 3: as a partial predorist. I think that most of the

1984
01:36:22,600 --> 01:36:25,479
Speaker 3: Book of Revelation was fulfilled in the first century surrounding

1985
01:36:25,479 --> 01:36:28,760
Speaker 3: the events of seventy a d. When Rome sacked Jerusalem

1986
01:36:28,760 --> 01:36:31,519
Speaker 3: and destroyed the Temple. And I think that that series,

1987
01:36:31,600 --> 01:36:34,320
Speaker 3: that sequence of events surrounding seventy eight D is what

1988
01:36:34,320 --> 01:36:37,800
Speaker 3: that passage is talking about. That's why I don't think

1989
01:36:37,800 --> 01:36:41,760
Speaker 3: it's about Hell. But I understand that partial predorism is

1990
01:36:41,800 --> 01:36:45,120
Speaker 3: a minority view amongst the different competing as catalogical views,

1991
01:36:45,360 --> 01:36:46,680
Speaker 3: and so I just don't make a big deal out

1992
01:36:46,720 --> 01:36:48,479
Speaker 3: of it. And again, even if it is about Hell,

1993
01:36:48,560 --> 01:36:50,200
Speaker 3: for the reasons that I gave, I think it still

1994
01:36:50,200 --> 01:36:53,080
Speaker 3: teaches my view. Thank you.

1995
01:36:54,000 --> 01:36:57,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, good clarification. Yeah, I have a question for.

1996
01:36:57,160 --> 01:37:00,400
Speaker 7: Both of you guys. I guess this might be a

1997
01:37:00,479 --> 01:37:03,479
Speaker 7: question more about the language. But is it possible that

1998
01:37:03,520 --> 01:37:07,320
Speaker 7: by eternal contempt the passage means that those in hell

1999
01:37:07,479 --> 01:37:10,200
Speaker 7: hold God in eternal contempt?

2000
01:37:10,960 --> 01:37:13,120
Speaker 2: Do you mean and Daniel twelve two where it says

2001
01:37:13,160 --> 01:37:16,639
Speaker 2: shame and then eternal contempt? So this is not other

2002
01:37:16,760 --> 01:37:19,720
Speaker 2: people holding them in contempt, but they're continuing to be

2003
01:37:19,840 --> 01:37:22,839
Speaker 2: conscious and holding God in everlasting contempt?

2004
01:37:22,840 --> 01:37:24,240
Speaker 5: Is that where your question is correct?

2005
01:37:24,439 --> 01:37:24,760
Speaker 1: All right?

2006
01:37:24,840 --> 01:37:28,160
Speaker 2: Since you've been asked thirty seven questions so far, kidding

2007
01:37:28,120 --> 01:37:29,840
Speaker 2: inside your thoughts.

2008
01:37:29,760 --> 01:37:32,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I don't have an ax to grind

2009
01:37:32,240 --> 01:37:35,160
Speaker 1: on this, you know, I do think that it can apply,

2010
01:37:36,479 --> 01:37:39,400
Speaker 1: But I see Chris's point. I do think it's interesting

2011
01:37:39,439 --> 01:37:42,640
Speaker 1: that Jesus does you know in I think most you

2012
01:37:42,680 --> 01:37:46,320
Speaker 1: know well illustrated in Matthew thirteen. Where there is the furnace,

2013
01:37:47,360 --> 01:37:50,559
Speaker 1: then there is mention of the weeping and gnashing of

2014
01:37:50,600 --> 01:37:53,360
Speaker 1: teeth where there is that contempt toward God, and then

2015
01:37:53,439 --> 01:37:56,200
Speaker 1: there is the mention of the righteous shining like the sun.

2016
01:37:56,280 --> 01:37:59,240
Speaker 1: So I think that Jesus is bringing those two things together,

2017
01:37:59,439 --> 01:38:03,679
Speaker 1: and that the conscious existence could also be incorporated in there,

2018
01:38:03,720 --> 01:38:08,040
Speaker 1: but may not initially be the You know, Indiango twelve

2019
01:38:08,520 --> 01:38:11,360
Speaker 1: what is I could see how Chris arrives at his position,

2020
01:38:11,439 --> 01:38:13,400
Speaker 1: but I think it could you know, I think Jesus

2021
01:38:13,680 --> 01:38:15,880
Speaker 1: May is seeing it as applying to both.

2022
01:38:16,120 --> 01:38:17,519
Speaker 5: Okay, do you want to weigh in on that one?

2023
01:38:17,560 --> 01:38:17,800
Speaker 9: Are you?

2024
01:38:18,560 --> 01:38:21,720
Speaker 3: That's plausible on the surface. I think a couple of

2025
01:38:22,320 --> 01:38:25,680
Speaker 3: reasons incline me against that reading. One is that I'm

2026
01:38:25,720 --> 01:38:29,160
Speaker 3: aware of no biblical scholar ever who's made that claim,

2027
01:38:29,360 --> 01:38:32,280
Speaker 3: which doesn't prove anything, but it is interesting. I'm a

2028
01:38:32,280 --> 01:38:34,000
Speaker 3: big believer in the idea that if it's new, it

2029
01:38:34,040 --> 01:38:37,120
Speaker 3: probably isn't true, and if it's true, it probably isn't new,

2030
01:38:38,000 --> 01:38:42,040
Speaker 3: And so I'm reluctant to embrace something that nobody in

2031
01:38:42,160 --> 01:38:44,759
Speaker 3: church history has ever embraced before. But the other reason

2032
01:38:44,800 --> 01:38:47,240
Speaker 3: is there seems to be a relationship between shame and

2033
01:38:47,280 --> 01:38:51,000
Speaker 3: contempt there. And the natural relationship between shame and contempt

2034
01:38:51,160 --> 01:38:54,040
Speaker 3: is there's the experience of the one who is experiencing shame,

2035
01:38:54,400 --> 01:38:56,559
Speaker 3: and then there's the shame in which they are perceived

2036
01:38:56,640 --> 01:38:59,880
Speaker 3: or remembered by everyone else, And that's their contempt, and

2037
01:39:00,120 --> 01:39:01,960
Speaker 3: that seems supported by the fact that the only other

2038
01:39:02,000 --> 01:39:04,000
Speaker 3: place in the Old Testament where that word is used

2039
01:39:04,080 --> 01:39:07,320
Speaker 3: is in Isaiah sixty six, where the ones where these

2040
01:39:07,360 --> 01:39:11,400
Speaker 3: dead bodies are abhorrent to others. So I think the

2041
01:39:11,439 --> 01:39:14,800
Speaker 3: weight of the evidence inclines toward contempt being what God

2042
01:39:14,840 --> 01:39:18,200
Speaker 3: and his people are experiencing, not what the wicked are.

2043
01:39:18,960 --> 01:39:20,960
Speaker 2: I have a quick question for you. You said, if something's new,

2044
01:39:21,000 --> 01:39:23,000
Speaker 2: it's probably not true. Agree, and you make the case

2045
01:39:23,280 --> 01:39:27,960
Speaker 2: that early some of the first appstock fathers held your view.

2046
01:39:28,760 --> 01:39:31,880
Speaker 2: Are there any other issues that you hold that the

2047
01:39:32,000 --> 01:39:35,320
Speaker 2: vast majority of Christian thinkers don't hold that are in

2048
01:39:35,439 --> 01:39:39,360
Speaker 2: the extreme minority? And if you say yes, it doesn't

2049
01:39:39,360 --> 01:39:42,080
Speaker 2: mean you're wrong about hell. But I'm just curious, is

2050
01:39:42,120 --> 01:39:44,479
Speaker 2: this unique or are you the kind of thinker that

2051
01:39:44,520 --> 01:39:46,559
Speaker 2: you have a lot of things you push back on.

2052
01:39:48,640 --> 01:39:51,040
Speaker 3: I wish you hadn't asked, because I don't want to

2053
01:39:51,040 --> 01:39:53,160
Speaker 3: out myself. But there is one thing that I hold

2054
01:39:53,200 --> 01:39:56,320
Speaker 3: that is an extreme minority, and that is I'm known

2055
01:39:56,360 --> 01:39:59,080
Speaker 3: as a non reductive physicalist, So I don't know. I'm

2056
01:39:59,080 --> 01:40:02,439
Speaker 3: not an anthropological I don't think we have souls or spirits. Wow,

2057
01:40:02,520 --> 01:40:04,919
Speaker 3: I've been speaking as though we do because most Christians,

2058
01:40:04,960 --> 01:40:08,280
Speaker 3: including most annihilationists, do hold that view, and so I'm

2059
01:40:08,280 --> 01:40:11,439
Speaker 3: perfectly fine representing that view. But that's not my conviction.

2060
01:40:11,520 --> 01:40:13,400
Speaker 3: I'm I'm I'm more in line with people like Joel

2061
01:40:13,400 --> 01:40:16,280
Speaker 3: green at Fuller and others who think that we are

2062
01:40:16,280 --> 01:40:19,439
Speaker 3: purely physical creatures who aren't conscious while dead. And I'll

2063
01:40:19,439 --> 01:40:23,160
Speaker 3: admit I'm aware of no no Christians in church history

2064
01:40:23,160 --> 01:40:25,080
Speaker 3: who hold that, and so I'm willing to admit this

2065
01:40:25,120 --> 01:40:27,080
Speaker 3: is a place where I'm violating my own, my own

2066
01:40:27,120 --> 01:40:28,120
Speaker 3: axiom a bit.

2067
01:40:28,439 --> 01:40:31,360
Speaker 5: That I have so many questions about that.

2068
01:40:30,520 --> 01:40:34,840
Speaker 2: That'll be a follow up conversation. Maybe we'll fly you

2069
01:40:34,880 --> 01:40:38,640
Speaker 2: down and have JP Morreland on this. I'd man, that

2070
01:40:38,640 --> 01:40:41,120
Speaker 2: would be fascinating. I do have one question for you.

2071
01:40:41,560 --> 01:40:43,760
Speaker 2: This came up a lot in the conversation that Kirk

2072
01:40:43,800 --> 01:40:46,599
Speaker 2: Cameron hosted and was one of the things that Dan

2073
01:40:46,920 --> 01:40:50,200
Speaker 2: just talked about as really being a concerned for him,

2074
01:40:50,200 --> 01:40:53,760
Speaker 2: and he's someone who also embraced conditional immortality. How God

2075
01:40:53,840 --> 01:40:55,719
Speaker 2: can be sovereign over all?

2076
01:40:55,840 --> 01:40:58,400
Speaker 5: Peep? If how God can be sovereign overall?

2077
01:40:58,880 --> 01:41:02,200
Speaker 2: If people keep sinning in hell and rejecting him, and

2078
01:41:02,240 --> 01:41:06,599
Speaker 2: even Da Carson talked about how failing to love God,

2079
01:41:06,720 --> 01:41:11,880
Speaker 2: which is seemingly happening in hell, would be an ongoing sin.

2080
01:41:12,120 --> 01:41:14,800
Speaker 2: And this is what some universalist point too, which is

2081
01:41:14,840 --> 01:41:15,960
Speaker 2: a separate conversation.

2082
01:41:16,479 --> 01:41:18,400
Speaker 5: But how would that square with your position?

2083
01:41:18,600 --> 01:41:23,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean I do maintain that there is Again,

2084
01:41:23,120 --> 01:41:25,720
Speaker 1: if we take that language of conscious awareness, that there

2085
01:41:25,800 --> 01:41:28,920
Speaker 1: is gnashing of teeth hostility toward God, then yes, sin

2086
01:41:29,000 --> 01:41:32,880
Speaker 1: would be continuing in this final state. And so it's

2087
01:41:32,920 --> 01:41:35,760
Speaker 1: a matter of well, okay, it seems that there is

2088
01:41:35,800 --> 01:41:40,320
Speaker 1: this ongoing conscious awareness that God is allowing people to

2089
01:41:40,320 --> 01:41:43,559
Speaker 1: have their way, He's you know, you know, showing love

2090
01:41:43,600 --> 01:41:46,600
Speaker 1: to them and not obliterating them, and that this is

2091
01:41:46,680 --> 01:41:48,599
Speaker 1: a you know, you know. Some people say, well, that's

2092
01:41:48,640 --> 01:41:51,600
Speaker 1: not very tidy, is it. Well, I think probably universalism

2093
01:41:51,600 --> 01:41:54,439
Speaker 1: would be the most tidy position of all in some ways,

2094
01:41:54,640 --> 01:41:56,439
Speaker 1: that it's all going to be wrapped up, everything's going

2095
01:41:56,520 --> 01:41:59,720
Speaker 1: to be reconciled. But it does seem to be the

2096
01:41:59,800 --> 01:42:02,400
Speaker 1: case that that if yeah, if you do have people

2097
01:42:02,400 --> 01:42:05,240
Speaker 1: who resist God, that you know that outside the city

2098
01:42:05,320 --> 01:42:09,320
Speaker 1: are people who are opposed to the rule of God,

2099
01:42:09,360 --> 01:42:12,400
Speaker 1: opposed to loving God, then yeah, that it would that

2100
01:42:12,439 --> 01:42:15,120
Speaker 1: it would continue. It's just kind of an inference drawn

2101
01:42:15,160 --> 01:42:18,600
Speaker 1: from you know, kind of making the sense of these texts.

2102
01:42:19,040 --> 01:42:21,759
Speaker 1: But but you know, I mean the as I said,

2103
01:42:21,800 --> 01:42:26,280
Speaker 1: even in Revelation twenty, there does seem to be something

2104
01:42:26,439 --> 01:42:31,840
Speaker 1: odd about Satan being tormented day and night forever, and

2105
01:42:33,240 --> 01:42:35,519
Speaker 1: that being in a sense part of the part of

2106
01:42:35,560 --> 01:42:39,559
Speaker 1: the vision that this seems to be ongoing, and so

2107
01:42:39,560 --> 01:42:41,080
Speaker 1: so anyway, that those are just some things that I

2108
01:42:41,120 --> 01:42:42,080
Speaker 1: will say in response, but.

2109
01:42:42,400 --> 01:42:43,559
Speaker 5: Totally fair, good stuff.

2110
01:42:43,600 --> 01:42:45,720
Speaker 3: Let's go back to can I say one real? If

2111
01:42:45,720 --> 01:42:47,519
Speaker 3: it's fast, it's fast. All I want to say here

2112
01:42:47,560 --> 01:42:50,320
Speaker 3: is I do find it interesting that often we annihilation

2113
01:42:50,400 --> 01:42:52,800
Speaker 3: of sort of ones who are said to be downplaying

2114
01:42:52,840 --> 01:42:55,160
Speaker 3: the holiness of God or something like that. But it

2115
01:42:55,240 --> 01:42:57,320
Speaker 3: is we're the ones who think that God hates sin

2116
01:42:57,479 --> 01:43:00,439
Speaker 3: so much people finally obliterate it, whereas the traditional of

2117
01:43:00,439 --> 01:43:02,320
Speaker 3: you says God hates send enough to punish it forever,

2118
01:43:02,360 --> 01:43:03,800
Speaker 3: but he's not going to get rid of it. It's

2119
01:43:03,800 --> 01:43:04,839
Speaker 3: something to at least consider.

2120
01:43:05,120 --> 01:43:10,320
Speaker 6: Okay, fair enough, Hi, Okay, thanks so much for being

2121
01:43:10,360 --> 01:43:13,080
Speaker 6: here again. This has been so interesting. I definitely feel

2122
01:43:13,080 --> 01:43:14,719
Speaker 6: like I'm in a little bit over my head.

2123
01:43:15,520 --> 01:43:16,280
Speaker 3: We all are to something.

2124
01:43:17,800 --> 01:43:21,439
Speaker 6: Not a specific question on anything you have said, but

2125
01:43:22,040 --> 01:43:24,160
Speaker 6: just I want to hear from both of you, as

2126
01:43:24,200 --> 01:43:27,879
Speaker 6: you've spent a huge part of your ministry studying studying

2127
01:43:27,920 --> 01:43:30,800
Speaker 6: the doctrine of hell? Why is it important for a

2128
01:43:30,840 --> 01:43:33,439
Speaker 6: believer to have a right theology of hell?

2129
01:43:35,240 --> 01:43:37,599
Speaker 5: Good question? Yeah, go ahead, Chris.

2130
01:43:38,840 --> 01:43:41,400
Speaker 3: I mean, if I'm being honest, I'm not convinced it

2131
01:43:41,479 --> 01:43:44,360
Speaker 3: is all that critical. I don't think this is a

2132
01:43:44,360 --> 01:43:47,120
Speaker 3: dividing line. What I do think is critical is that

2133
01:43:47,800 --> 01:43:50,880
Speaker 3: where we disagree, we disagree well. And that's something that

2134
01:43:50,920 --> 01:43:52,800
Speaker 3: I think on this topic, Christians have not done a

2135
01:43:52,800 --> 01:43:54,479
Speaker 3: great job on and that's when I think. One of

2136
01:43:54,479 --> 01:43:56,080
Speaker 3: the things I think Paul and I are trying to remedy.

2137
01:43:56,479 --> 01:43:58,519
Speaker 3: What I will say though, is there are many Christians

2138
01:43:58,560 --> 01:44:02,639
Speaker 3: for whom this issue is very important. I can't count

2139
01:44:02,640 --> 01:44:04,800
Speaker 3: the number of people I've heard from who've said I

2140
01:44:04,960 --> 01:44:06,920
Speaker 3: was on the way out of the faith because of

2141
01:44:06,960 --> 01:44:09,680
Speaker 3: the doctrine of eternal torment. And when I discovered that

2142
01:44:09,720 --> 01:44:12,760
Speaker 3: there's another biblically faithful view that I can hold, it's

2143
01:44:12,840 --> 01:44:15,840
Speaker 3: re energized my faith. I can't count the number of

2144
01:44:15,880 --> 01:44:18,519
Speaker 3: people I've heard from who've said I'm able to connect

2145
01:44:18,560 --> 01:44:21,360
Speaker 3: with my Creator in a far more intimate and deep

2146
01:44:21,400 --> 01:44:24,559
Speaker 3: way because I no longer have this tension between a

2147
01:44:24,600 --> 01:44:28,240
Speaker 3: loving God as depicted in scripture, who will supernaturally immortalize

2148
01:44:28,240 --> 01:44:31,320
Speaker 3: the loss so that they can suffer miserably forever. There

2149
01:44:31,360 --> 01:44:33,559
Speaker 3: are Christians. I'm not one of them. I'm just kind

2150
01:44:33,560 --> 01:44:35,200
Speaker 3: of like a robot. But there are a lot of

2151
01:44:35,320 --> 01:44:38,639
Speaker 3: Christians who are very emotionally affected by what they think

2152
01:44:38,680 --> 01:44:42,400
Speaker 3: about Hell, and for them this is a big issue,

2153
01:44:42,600 --> 01:44:46,040
Speaker 3: and I think that my view brings those Christians a

2154
01:44:46,040 --> 01:44:49,040
Speaker 3: lot of comfort and a lot of closeness with God

2155
01:44:49,040 --> 01:44:52,519
Speaker 3: that they've never experienced before. On the other hand, there

2156
01:44:52,520 --> 01:44:55,200
Speaker 3: are people who when they find out that most if

2157
01:44:55,240 --> 01:44:58,320
Speaker 3: they become persuaded that most of church history has gotten

2158
01:44:58,320 --> 01:45:00,880
Speaker 3: this issue wrong, that's going to really challenge their faith

2159
01:45:00,920 --> 01:45:02,479
Speaker 3: and they're going to be well, what other things should

2160
01:45:02,520 --> 01:45:05,840
Speaker 3: I abandon? And so this is a tough question, and

2161
01:45:06,240 --> 01:45:10,120
Speaker 3: I would just encourage people to take it slowly and carefully,

2162
01:45:10,560 --> 01:45:14,519
Speaker 3: and and and in community and let the let the

2163
01:45:14,560 --> 01:45:17,280
Speaker 3: evidence lead the more they where it leads them, wherever

2164
01:45:17,320 --> 01:45:17,680
Speaker 3: that may be.

2165
01:45:17,760 --> 01:45:19,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, And just to just to add to that, I

2166
01:45:19,840 --> 01:45:24,400
Speaker 1: think what you're you know, some people say, oh, that's

2167
01:45:24,439 --> 01:45:28,400
Speaker 1: going to diminish people's concerned about evangelism, but two leading

2168
01:45:29,040 --> 01:45:32,800
Speaker 1: lights in UH in evangelism have been John Stott and

2169
01:45:32,840 --> 01:45:36,800
Speaker 1: Michael Green from England and both very much committed to evangelism.

2170
01:45:37,400 --> 01:45:41,160
Speaker 1: And I think that if you understand the say the

2171
01:45:41,160 --> 01:45:45,200
Speaker 1: obliteration of the self as something horrific and terrifying, well

2172
01:45:45,240 --> 01:45:47,280
Speaker 1: you can see, you know that the Lord that the

2173
01:45:47,560 --> 01:45:51,080
Speaker 1: Gospel message is to remind people you don't have to

2174
01:45:51,200 --> 01:45:53,479
Speaker 1: you don't have to go that direction. You don't have

2175
01:45:53,520 --> 01:45:56,479
Speaker 1: to lose your personal existence, so you know, and you

2176
01:45:56,479 --> 01:45:58,880
Speaker 1: can you can find relationship with God, union with God,

2177
01:45:58,920 --> 01:46:01,880
Speaker 1: and continued exist So I think that the message of

2178
01:46:01,880 --> 01:46:04,280
Speaker 1: the annihilationist in terms of the Gospel, you know, there's

2179
01:46:04,320 --> 01:46:06,240
Speaker 1: something to be something to be said there too. So

2180
01:46:06,280 --> 01:46:09,439
Speaker 1: I don't think that, you know, it diminishes one's zeal

2181
01:46:09,560 --> 01:46:13,240
Speaker 1: for evangelism.

2182
01:46:11,960 --> 01:46:12,120
Speaker 4: You know.

2183
01:46:12,200 --> 01:46:15,280
Speaker 1: And anyway, I we should probably go to other questions,

2184
01:46:15,280 --> 01:46:17,720
Speaker 1: but I just wanted to wanted to add that as well.

2185
01:46:17,720 --> 01:46:20,000
Speaker 1: But I think it just should obviously be a place

2186
01:46:20,000 --> 01:46:23,320
Speaker 1: of pastoral concern. That is, whatever the final state is,

2187
01:46:23,800 --> 01:46:26,240
Speaker 1: you know, we want people to share in the joys

2188
01:46:26,320 --> 01:46:30,760
Speaker 1: of union with God rather than being again removed from

2189
01:46:31,120 --> 01:46:31,800
Speaker 1: experiencing that.

2190
01:46:32,040 --> 01:46:33,920
Speaker 2: And you have a final section in the book where

2191
01:46:33,920 --> 01:46:35,799
Speaker 2: you talk about this, which I think is a helpful

2192
01:46:35,800 --> 01:46:36,680
Speaker 2: way to wrap it up.

2193
01:46:37,040 --> 01:46:39,200
Speaker 5: That's in there as well. Let's go to students. Hold

2194
01:46:39,240 --> 01:46:40,000
Speaker 5: it right up there.

2195
01:46:40,680 --> 01:46:43,800
Speaker 10: My name is Jeremy and this is a question for Paul,

2196
01:46:43,920 --> 01:46:46,840
Speaker 10: and thank you for being here. But I want to

2197
01:46:46,880 --> 01:46:50,800
Speaker 10: ask on a qualitative level, do you believe the level

2198
01:46:50,840 --> 01:46:55,759
Speaker 10: of punishment within annihilationism is an eclipse of God's wrath?

2199
01:46:55,800 --> 01:46:58,800
Speaker 10: Because I think hell is a very touchy topic to

2200
01:46:58,880 --> 01:47:02,400
Speaker 10: think about and to talk to others, and I've I

2201
01:47:02,400 --> 01:47:06,479
Speaker 10: have the conviction of not wanting to water down the

2202
01:47:06,479 --> 01:47:07,639
Speaker 10: the level of God's wrath.

2203
01:47:07,920 --> 01:47:09,719
Speaker 3: So, in other words, is.

2204
01:47:10,000 --> 01:47:15,920
Speaker 10: Would you agree that even though annihilationism is not where

2205
01:47:15,960 --> 01:47:19,519
Speaker 10: you hold is it, would you agree that it's could

2206
01:47:19,520 --> 01:47:23,640
Speaker 10: be a full biblical view, full biblical view of His

2207
01:47:23,720 --> 01:47:24,599
Speaker 10: wrath being displayed.

2208
01:47:25,360 --> 01:47:27,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I mean I I I do think

2209
01:47:27,320 --> 01:47:30,479
Speaker 1: that there is a connection that could be made there

2210
01:47:30,640 --> 01:47:33,800
Speaker 1: and there are you know again, it could go into

2211
01:47:33,840 --> 01:47:37,080
Speaker 1: a very lengthy conversation here about you know the you know,

2212
01:47:37,160 --> 01:47:39,840
Speaker 1: the you know, the Son of God suffering, you know

2213
01:47:39,920 --> 01:47:42,920
Speaker 1: what is the god forsakenness of the Sun. Mean, I

2214
01:47:42,960 --> 01:47:44,640
Speaker 1: don't think there's a rift in the Trinity at all.

2215
01:47:44,680 --> 01:47:47,800
Speaker 1: I think it's just simply a Jesus being blocked from

2216
01:47:47,840 --> 01:47:51,240
Speaker 1: having that kind of a you know, joyful intimacy with

2217
01:47:51,320 --> 01:47:54,160
Speaker 1: his Father, the experience that is uh that has been,

2218
01:47:54,640 --> 01:47:57,320
Speaker 1: that has been blunted now in this in this condition

2219
01:47:57,479 --> 01:47:59,880
Speaker 1: some you know, and some will argue that this is

2220
01:48:00,600 --> 01:48:04,960
Speaker 1: tantamount to or is the equivalent of, you know, even

2221
01:48:05,000 --> 01:48:07,519
Speaker 1: though it's finite and not eternally, but it is you know,

2222
01:48:07,520 --> 01:48:10,519
Speaker 1: we're talking about the Son of God who's experiencing this.

2223
01:48:10,600 --> 01:48:13,280
Speaker 1: So so from that angle you'd say, yes, it is

2224
01:48:13,600 --> 01:48:17,400
Speaker 1: there is a a you know, you know, maybe a

2225
01:48:17,439 --> 01:48:19,680
Speaker 1: diminishing of that. But on the other hand, I mean,

2226
01:48:19,720 --> 01:48:23,120
Speaker 1: I see Chris's point, and he is certainly not one

2227
01:48:23,120 --> 01:48:26,280
Speaker 1: who is diminishing the holiness of God in his view.

2228
01:48:26,320 --> 01:48:27,880
Speaker 1: He's simply trying and I think both of us are

2229
01:48:27,880 --> 01:48:30,280
Speaker 1: trying to do this, trying to take the text seriously

2230
01:48:30,840 --> 01:48:32,960
Speaker 1: and say, what does the text say and what does

2231
01:48:32,960 --> 01:48:34,800
Speaker 1: this tell us about the holiness of God? Rather than

2232
01:48:34,800 --> 01:48:36,599
Speaker 1: saying this is what I think the holiness of God is,

2233
01:48:36,880 --> 01:48:39,719
Speaker 1: and therefore or what the wrath of God ought to entail,

2234
01:48:40,200 --> 01:48:42,000
Speaker 1: and therefore I'm going to try to find a way

2235
01:48:42,040 --> 01:48:44,000
Speaker 1: of bringing this to the scripture. So I think that

2236
01:48:44,240 --> 01:48:46,800
Speaker 1: it's just a kind of a fair question, how do

2237
01:48:46,840 --> 01:48:49,200
Speaker 1: we interpret the text, and then how do we, therefore,

2238
01:48:49,240 --> 01:48:51,960
Speaker 1: in light of that, see and understand the nature of

2239
01:48:51,960 --> 01:48:54,719
Speaker 1: God as he's revealed himself, his holiness, his love, his wrath,

2240
01:48:54,760 --> 01:48:55,320
Speaker 1: and so forth.

2241
01:48:55,720 --> 01:48:58,080
Speaker 3: Just two fast points in following up number one, I

2242
01:48:58,080 --> 01:49:01,000
Speaker 3: think if the best place to look, or the best

2243
01:49:02,080 --> 01:49:05,679
Speaker 3: most full throated example of God pouring out his wrath

2244
01:49:05,720 --> 01:49:07,719
Speaker 3: would be him pouring out his wrath on his son

2245
01:49:07,880 --> 01:49:11,760
Speaker 3: in our place and caught what happened to his son

2246
01:49:11,920 --> 01:49:14,920
Speaker 3: on the cross. He didn't live forever in torment, he died,

2247
01:49:15,439 --> 01:49:18,040
Speaker 3: And so I can't possibly, I cannot relate to anyone

2248
01:49:18,080 --> 01:49:20,519
Speaker 3: who would say, well, if the wicked are just killed,

2249
01:49:20,960 --> 01:49:24,320
Speaker 3: that's somehow downplaying God's wrath, when the whole point, the

2250
01:49:25,280 --> 01:49:28,160
Speaker 3: central focus of the biblical message, is God's pouring out

2251
01:49:28,200 --> 01:49:31,720
Speaker 3: his wrath on sin, on Jesus on the cross. So

2252
01:49:31,760 --> 01:49:35,439
Speaker 3: that's number one. Number two again, I think I also

2253
01:49:35,439 --> 01:49:38,160
Speaker 3: don't want to downplay God's wrath, But in the utmost

2254
01:49:38,160 --> 01:49:40,880
Speaker 3: of respect, I don't think it's annihilationists nowadays who are

2255
01:49:40,880 --> 01:49:42,800
Speaker 3: doing that. I think it tends to be people on

2256
01:49:42,840 --> 01:49:45,799
Speaker 3: the eternal torment side who are air conditioning Hell. Again,

2257
01:49:45,840 --> 01:49:48,400
Speaker 3: when you got people the likes of Minutius Felix and

2258
01:49:48,560 --> 01:49:51,200
Speaker 3: Jonathan Edwards and others saying that the flames of hell

2259
01:49:51,240 --> 01:49:53,240
Speaker 3: are literal, they literally burn off the flesh of the

2260
01:49:53,280 --> 01:49:57,520
Speaker 3: wicked and simultaneously regenerate it for all eternity. And nowadays

2261
01:49:57,520 --> 01:49:59,559
Speaker 3: you have people saying, well, it's like being stuck in

2262
01:49:59,600 --> 01:50:02,840
Speaker 3: a bar where there's only warm, flat beer forever. That's

2263
01:50:02,840 --> 01:50:06,760
Speaker 3: what JP, the guy runs Tectonics Ministry, has said, or

2264
01:50:07,240 --> 01:50:10,360
Speaker 3: beholding J beholding right, Or they'll say, oh, it's it's

2265
01:50:10,400 --> 01:50:12,400
Speaker 3: just sort of like an everlasting prison sentence. It's like

2266
01:50:12,439 --> 01:50:15,559
Speaker 3: being banished, exiled forever. Well, you know that's kind of bad,

2267
01:50:15,600 --> 01:50:17,559
Speaker 3: but it doesn't sound as bad as having flames burn

2268
01:50:17,640 --> 01:50:19,240
Speaker 3: off your flesh and regenerate them forever.

2269
01:50:19,320 --> 01:50:21,400
Speaker 1: But then there's a question though, of you know, how

2270
01:50:21,439 --> 01:50:24,040
Speaker 1: do you interpret those images? And they were reading them very,

2271
01:50:24,120 --> 01:50:27,000
Speaker 1: very literalistically, and I'm saying, no, these are metaphoricals, So

2272
01:50:27,640 --> 01:50:29,559
Speaker 1: let yeah, I would want to clarify that.

2273
01:50:29,600 --> 01:50:31,400
Speaker 3: Well, I agree, and My point is just that let's

2274
01:50:31,479 --> 01:50:34,000
Speaker 3: let's dispense of this fear of who's watering down hell,

2275
01:50:34,000 --> 01:50:36,160
Speaker 3: and let's just deal with the biblical data. You know.

2276
01:50:36,720 --> 01:50:38,840
Speaker 2: That's where that let me askay this One of the

2277
01:50:38,880 --> 01:50:42,120
Speaker 2: most fascinating parts of this book to me is a

2278
01:50:42,160 --> 01:50:44,400
Speaker 2: response that you had that has had me thinking. And

2279
01:50:44,439 --> 01:50:45,960
Speaker 2: I want to set it up in this sense that

2280
01:50:46,000 --> 01:50:51,080
Speaker 2: I've had multiple atheists in conversation with me say, why

2281
01:50:51,120 --> 01:50:54,840
Speaker 2: would I fear death? I didn't exist before and I

2282
01:50:54,880 --> 01:50:58,599
Speaker 2: won't exist afterwards, so there's no reason to fear death.

2283
01:50:59,320 --> 01:51:03,080
Speaker 2: Scriptures talk about a punishment that is worse than death.

2284
01:51:04,240 --> 01:51:06,280
Speaker 2: Talk about your take on that in light of the

2285
01:51:06,320 --> 01:51:08,960
Speaker 2: comment you made at the beginning. If I heard you correctly,

2286
01:51:09,000 --> 01:51:12,799
Speaker 2: you said you wished you could believe in eternal conscious torment.

2287
01:51:13,600 --> 01:51:17,240
Speaker 2: Why would you wish that? Help us understand and respond

2288
01:51:17,280 --> 01:51:17,519
Speaker 2: to that.

2289
01:51:17,600 --> 01:51:19,320
Speaker 3: So it's certainly the case that there is a large

2290
01:51:19,400 --> 01:51:23,759
Speaker 3: number of people through human history who share some variation

2291
01:51:23,880 --> 01:51:26,720
Speaker 3: of the sentiment that you just described. But the reality is,

2292
01:51:26,920 --> 01:51:29,080
Speaker 3: I think most philosophers will tell you that the Epicurean

2293
01:51:29,160 --> 01:51:32,799
Speaker 3: endeavor was pretty much a failure. The Epicureans were trying

2294
01:51:32,840 --> 01:51:35,920
Speaker 3: to talk people out of their fear of death by arguing, hey,

2295
01:51:35,920 --> 01:51:37,880
Speaker 3: there's nothing to fear, because after you die, you won't

2296
01:51:37,880 --> 01:51:40,120
Speaker 3: be here, just like you weren't here before you were born.

2297
01:51:40,280 --> 01:51:43,639
Speaker 3: But they didn't make many converts. And if you look

2298
01:51:43,680 --> 01:51:47,599
Speaker 3: through history, you find maybe a minority, but a strong

2299
01:51:47,680 --> 01:51:51,479
Speaker 3: minority of humans who fear annihilation even more than they

2300
01:51:51,520 --> 01:51:54,799
Speaker 3: fear everlasting life in torment. The first century Greek historian

2301
01:51:54,840 --> 01:51:57,360
Speaker 3: Plutarch said that if you were to offer his fellow

2302
01:51:57,400 --> 01:52:00,200
Speaker 3: Greek countrymen the choice between eternal torment and annihilation, and

2303
01:52:00,400 --> 01:52:03,960
Speaker 3: they would joyfully choose eternal torment. Augustine himself in the

2304
01:52:03,960 --> 01:52:05,760
Speaker 3: City of God said that if you were to offer

2305
01:52:05,800 --> 01:52:09,000
Speaker 3: the impenitent sinner the choice between eternal torment or being annihilated,

2306
01:52:09,000 --> 01:52:12,959
Speaker 3: they were they would joyfully choose to be eternally tormented.

2307
01:52:14,400 --> 01:52:16,960
Speaker 3: These are these are sentiments that I admit a lot

2308
01:52:16,960 --> 01:52:20,839
Speaker 3: of people can't relate to, but it's nevertheless there Read

2309
01:52:20,880 --> 01:52:24,320
Speaker 3: the Read the poem Aubad by the twentieth century Agnostic

2310
01:52:24,360 --> 01:52:27,559
Speaker 3: poet Philip Larkin, who goes He talks about his fear

2311
01:52:27,560 --> 01:52:29,360
Speaker 3: of death, and then he talks about people who said, Hey,

2312
01:52:29,360 --> 01:52:31,559
Speaker 3: don't fear death, You just won't be around after you die,

2313
01:52:31,800 --> 01:52:35,760
Speaker 3: and he responds with, you don't understand. That's precisely what

2314
01:52:35,840 --> 01:52:39,840
Speaker 3: I fear, no longer being, no longer experiencing, no longer loving,

2315
01:52:39,920 --> 01:52:44,040
Speaker 3: no longer feeling. So this is a very strong undercurrent

2316
01:52:44,080 --> 01:52:47,240
Speaker 3: occurrent through human history. And I think what it highlights

2317
01:52:47,400 --> 01:52:51,240
Speaker 3: is that, at the very best, the question of which

2318
01:52:51,280 --> 01:52:54,120
Speaker 3: is worse, which is more terrifying, is a very subjective thing.

2319
01:52:54,640 --> 01:52:57,720
Speaker 3: And for me, I fear annihilation more than I do

2320
01:52:57,760 --> 01:53:00,439
Speaker 3: eternal torment. And I would rather my lost life ones

2321
01:53:00,439 --> 01:53:02,679
Speaker 3: get to live forever, albeit in some kind of misery,

2322
01:53:02,960 --> 01:53:06,960
Speaker 3: then be obliterated and never experience anything ever again. And so,

2323
01:53:07,000 --> 01:53:09,320
Speaker 3: for those reasons, and because it would make me fit

2324
01:53:09,439 --> 01:53:13,280
Speaker 3: better with my conservative, reformed you know brothers, for those reasons,

2325
01:53:13,320 --> 01:53:16,120
Speaker 3: I wish I could believe in eternal torment. But I

2326
01:53:16,160 --> 01:53:17,920
Speaker 3: had to subject my I had to bend my need

2327
01:53:17,920 --> 01:53:20,400
Speaker 3: a scripture. I was sort of dragged by my commitment

2328
01:53:20,439 --> 01:53:23,920
Speaker 3: to scripture kicking and screaming into embracing this view.

2329
01:53:24,160 --> 01:53:27,519
Speaker 2: Oh that's so interesting. I have a million things to

2330
01:53:27,560 --> 01:53:29,800
Speaker 2: say about that. Any thoughts on that, Paul, How you see,

2331
01:53:29,840 --> 01:53:34,040
Speaker 2: because is it just a matter of subjective kind of

2332
01:53:34,080 --> 01:53:35,960
Speaker 2: takes and give and takes or do you think there's

2333
01:53:36,000 --> 01:53:41,479
Speaker 2: something more to fearing eternal conscious punishment when we understand

2334
01:53:41,479 --> 01:53:44,080
Speaker 2: it biblically as you do, that we would want to

2335
01:53:44,120 --> 01:53:46,080
Speaker 2: do everything to get out of that.

2336
01:53:46,560 --> 01:53:48,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's interesting.

2337
01:53:48,120 --> 01:53:48,400
Speaker 3: I think.

2338
01:53:48,920 --> 01:53:51,200
Speaker 1: You know, of course, our our intuitions need to be

2339
01:53:51,280 --> 01:53:54,240
Speaker 1: subjected to the scriptures. And John Stott is very very

2340
01:53:54,280 --> 01:53:58,000
Speaker 1: clear on that, even though he takes the conditionalist perspective.

2341
01:53:58,560 --> 01:54:03,679
Speaker 1: But you know, in our own modern world, we think

2342
01:54:03,720 --> 01:54:07,840
Speaker 1: of the the life in prison as being more compassionate

2343
01:54:07,920 --> 01:54:10,640
Speaker 1: than say, capital punishment. You know that that that is

2344
01:54:10,920 --> 01:54:13,439
Speaker 1: you know, you know in some people, you know, some

2345
01:54:13,479 --> 01:54:16,040
Speaker 1: people will say, well, you know, you know it isn't

2346
01:54:16,080 --> 01:54:18,960
Speaker 1: you know, isn't what you're saying about, say, conditionalism. You're

2347
01:54:19,080 --> 01:54:21,360
Speaker 1: you're you're saying that this is you know, you know

2348
01:54:21,400 --> 01:54:24,760
Speaker 1: that that you know, taking someone's life is actually just

2349
01:54:24,760 --> 01:54:26,519
Speaker 1: going to be well won, It's going to be you know,

2350
01:54:26,760 --> 01:54:29,400
Speaker 1: very very severe. But but but I think that we

2351
01:54:29,520 --> 01:54:32,200
Speaker 1: have in this in our modern understanding, maybe just go

2352
01:54:32,280 --> 01:54:35,640
Speaker 1: back to that where where we think that allowing people

2353
01:54:35,840 --> 01:54:39,400
Speaker 1: to live their days out in prison is the more

2354
01:54:39,440 --> 01:54:42,200
Speaker 1: compassionate way. And uh, yeah, I think I just go

2355
01:54:42,320 --> 01:54:44,560
Speaker 1: back to the so we could have these competing intuitions.

2356
01:54:44,560 --> 01:54:45,920
Speaker 1: But again, I just want to bring us back to

2357
01:54:46,040 --> 01:54:49,080
Speaker 1: scripture that we we subject those to to what the

2358
01:54:49,080 --> 01:54:52,760
Speaker 1: scriptures are actually saying. And so if the scriptures are saying, uh,

2359
01:54:53,040 --> 01:54:56,720
Speaker 1: you know, obliteration of one's you know, personal identity, consciousness

2360
01:54:56,760 --> 01:55:00,520
Speaker 1: and so forth, or you know, eternal conscious punishment, well

2361
01:55:01,080 --> 01:55:03,880
Speaker 1: that is you know, well that's just what the Strom

2362
01:55:03,920 --> 01:55:06,520
Speaker 1: now saying. We need to figure that we need to

2363
01:55:06,520 --> 01:55:07,560
Speaker 1: figure things out from there.

2364
01:55:07,760 --> 01:55:09,920
Speaker 2: Fair enough, I think you both agree on that. Let's

2365
01:55:09,960 --> 01:55:11,400
Speaker 2: go to one more students question.

2366
01:55:12,080 --> 01:55:15,120
Speaker 9: Hi, thank you guys for both being here and all

2367
01:55:15,120 --> 01:55:17,920
Speaker 9: of your insights are just so interesting and I think

2368
01:55:18,000 --> 01:55:21,160
Speaker 9: so important for people to hear.

2369
01:55:21,320 --> 01:55:21,680
Speaker 3: Thank you.

2370
01:55:22,600 --> 01:55:26,800
Speaker 9: I do have a question about, like how keeping the

2371
01:55:27,080 --> 01:55:30,080
Speaker 9: conscious mind alive is an act of love from God.

2372
01:55:31,800 --> 01:55:36,240
Speaker 9: I'm just like wrestling to grasp what that actually means

2373
01:55:36,920 --> 01:55:39,480
Speaker 9: and how is like because in my experience from people

2374
01:55:39,520 --> 01:55:42,760
Speaker 9: that I've talked to about like where they will go

2375
01:55:42,840 --> 01:55:45,240
Speaker 9: after they die, They're like, well, I don't know what's

2376
01:55:45,240 --> 01:55:46,760
Speaker 9: going to come after this, but I kind of hope

2377
01:55:46,760 --> 01:55:52,200
Speaker 9: that I just disappear. But if like how, I don't know.

2378
01:55:52,320 --> 01:55:55,240
Speaker 9: I just feel like people wouldn't prefer to be living

2379
01:55:55,280 --> 01:55:57,200
Speaker 9: in uh forever torment?

2380
01:55:58,120 --> 01:55:59,320
Speaker 1: You know, I love this.

2381
01:55:59,400 --> 01:55:59,920
Speaker 5: Let me jump in.

2382
01:56:00,120 --> 01:56:02,440
Speaker 2: So let's hold off what people would prefer. And I'm

2383
01:56:02,440 --> 01:56:04,320
Speaker 2: gonna have you both address it. There's a line in

2384
01:56:04,360 --> 01:56:05,960
Speaker 2: the book and I'm glad you brought this up because

2385
01:56:05,960 --> 01:56:08,440
Speaker 2: I want to ask this. It says, for some it

2386
01:56:08,520 --> 01:56:11,960
Speaker 2: pains God as a moral monster. And you've written the

2387
01:56:11,960 --> 01:56:16,360
Speaker 2: book is God a moral monster who has unnecessarily created

2388
01:56:16,400 --> 01:56:20,920
Speaker 2: the ultimate Holocaust? So how is keeping people alive an

2389
01:56:20,960 --> 01:56:24,560
Speaker 2: act of God's love? If love is being committed to

2390
01:56:24,640 --> 01:56:26,720
Speaker 2: somebody's good, and then I'm gonna ask you how it's

2391
01:56:26,760 --> 01:56:28,360
Speaker 2: loving to stuff somebody out at some point?

2392
01:56:28,680 --> 01:56:31,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean, I again, we have touched on

2393
01:56:31,320 --> 01:56:34,480
Speaker 1: on this a bit. But if if God, you know,

2394
01:56:34,520 --> 01:56:37,920
Speaker 1: we talked about being to have existence is a good thing,

2395
01:56:38,240 --> 01:56:42,600
Speaker 1: and even if it's a corrupted existence, there's still something

2396
01:56:42,720 --> 01:56:47,240
Speaker 1: good about having being having having existence and and and

2397
01:56:47,280 --> 01:56:51,080
Speaker 1: so I would say that, you know, the again competing

2398
01:56:51,080 --> 01:56:53,640
Speaker 1: intuitions here and so subject them to scripture. But there

2399
01:56:54,000 --> 01:56:58,200
Speaker 1: but to obliterate someone is you know, in in a

2400
01:56:58,360 --> 01:57:02,480
Speaker 1: very I think significant way, and and and an assault

2401
01:57:02,480 --> 01:57:05,480
Speaker 1: on them, you know that to take to keep them alive.

2402
01:57:05,800 --> 01:57:07,560
Speaker 1: Is is more an active love. So you have to

2403
01:57:07,640 --> 01:57:10,240
Speaker 1: choose between the two. And there may be some some

2404
01:57:10,320 --> 01:57:14,720
Speaker 1: conditions where where you know, where you know extremists. And

2405
01:57:14,760 --> 01:57:17,560
Speaker 1: I know Chris is gonna talk bring about a science

2406
01:57:17,560 --> 01:57:20,640
Speaker 1: fiction scene here, but but I do think that there

2407
01:57:20,720 --> 01:57:24,720
Speaker 1: is a that there is a a I think, a

2408
01:57:24,760 --> 01:57:28,440
Speaker 1: fundamental affirmation of a person's being of a person of

2409
01:57:28,440 --> 01:57:31,160
Speaker 1: not stuffing that person out and wishing, you know, desiring

2410
01:57:31,200 --> 01:57:34,360
Speaker 1: that had been things had been different. But and it's

2411
01:57:34,400 --> 01:57:36,320
Speaker 1: sort of like the parable of the prodigal Son, where

2412
01:57:36,360 --> 01:57:39,520
Speaker 1: you have the the prodigal son who's come back home,

2413
01:57:39,600 --> 01:57:43,440
Speaker 1: the destroyed son, the lost son who who comes home

2414
01:57:43,560 --> 01:57:45,720
Speaker 1: and the brother is outside and doesn't want to come

2415
01:57:45,760 --> 01:57:48,280
Speaker 1: in to celebrate, and you know, again, God's not going

2416
01:57:48,360 --> 01:57:51,200
Speaker 1: to hold up the party of the celebration just because

2417
01:57:51,280 --> 01:57:53,600
Speaker 1: his his older son is sitting out and it and

2418
01:57:53,600 --> 01:57:55,120
Speaker 1: and so I think that there's a kind of a

2419
01:57:55,160 --> 01:57:57,720
Speaker 1: picture here of yes, the Lord will allow us to

2420
01:57:57,760 --> 01:57:59,560
Speaker 1: have our own way. He will he will allow us

2421
01:57:59,600 --> 01:58:03,360
Speaker 1: to have the choice that we have made to refuse

2422
01:58:03,400 --> 01:58:06,880
Speaker 1: community with him to find happiness our way. And so

2423
01:58:07,200 --> 01:58:09,200
Speaker 1: I think that that is really what is going on here.

2424
01:58:09,320 --> 01:58:13,040
Speaker 1: In this scenario. So, so God does stuff out there

2425
01:58:13,080 --> 01:58:15,960
Speaker 1: is an act of There is love that is exhibited here.

2426
01:58:16,160 --> 01:58:18,680
Speaker 1: God doesn't desire Freddy to perish and so forth.

2427
01:58:18,720 --> 01:58:22,320
Speaker 2: But anyway, so by keeping God has made us beans

2428
01:58:22,320 --> 01:58:26,400
Speaker 2: with choice by honoring that choice to reject God. He

2429
01:58:26,440 --> 01:58:31,000
Speaker 2: loves us by keeping us alive in that rejection of Him,

2430
01:58:31,040 --> 01:58:36,440
Speaker 2: because that's the kind of beans we are that make choices. Yeah, okay,

2431
01:58:36,560 --> 01:58:38,320
Speaker 2: so let's flip that though. How is it loving for

2432
01:58:38,360 --> 01:58:39,640
Speaker 2: God to do the opposite?

2433
01:58:39,760 --> 01:58:43,720
Speaker 3: Yeah? So Paul mentioned that he expected me to turn

2434
01:58:43,760 --> 01:58:46,120
Speaker 3: to science fiction because I love movies. I watch a

2435
01:58:46,160 --> 01:58:48,360
Speaker 3: lot of movies, and I point out a TV shows,

2436
01:58:48,360 --> 01:58:52,520
Speaker 3: and I see myriad examples in movies and in TV

2437
01:58:52,760 --> 01:58:55,920
Speaker 3: where people kill people as an act of love for

2438
01:58:55,960 --> 01:58:57,760
Speaker 3: those people. And the example I gave, I think last

2439
01:58:57,760 --> 01:58:59,800
Speaker 3: time we talked about this was when at the end

2440
01:58:59,840 --> 01:59:02,160
Speaker 3: of X Men three, I think it is Wolverine kills

2441
01:59:02,240 --> 01:59:04,880
Speaker 3: Jean Gray precisely because he loves her and he wants

2442
01:59:04,880 --> 01:59:07,080
Speaker 3: to prevent her, or she wants to be prevented from

2443
01:59:07,080 --> 01:59:09,560
Speaker 3: being taken over by the dark Phoenix that's taking her over.

2444
01:59:10,000 --> 01:59:11,480
Speaker 3: But that's actually not the route I'm going to go

2445
01:59:11,520 --> 01:59:13,400
Speaker 3: This time, I want to do something a little more socratic.

2446
01:59:14,160 --> 01:59:18,400
Speaker 3: The guy that is believed to have executed assassinated Charlie

2447
01:59:18,480 --> 01:59:21,680
Speaker 3: Kirk who turned him in. Do you know.

2448
01:59:23,280 --> 01:59:24,440
Speaker 1: His dad?

2449
01:59:24,640 --> 01:59:26,640
Speaker 3: And what do you think they expected is likely to

2450
01:59:26,680 --> 01:59:29,360
Speaker 3: happen to their son if he's found guilty for assassins

2451
01:59:30,440 --> 01:59:32,320
Speaker 3: Do you think that they do you think that there

2452
01:59:32,360 --> 01:59:36,280
Speaker 3: was a that it was unloving of them to turn

2453
01:59:36,320 --> 01:59:39,200
Speaker 3: their son into a face justice knowing that he'd probably

2454
01:59:39,200 --> 01:59:41,480
Speaker 3: be killed. I think it is a good question. Now

2455
01:59:41,520 --> 01:59:44,080
Speaker 3: here's the reason I bring this. JP Morland, whom you

2456
01:59:44,160 --> 01:59:47,640
Speaker 3: mentioned earlier. He's defended the death penalty precisely on the

2457
01:59:47,680 --> 01:59:52,320
Speaker 3: grounds there that there's almost no greater dignity you could

2458
01:59:52,360 --> 01:59:54,640
Speaker 3: show a person than by allowing them to face the

2459
01:59:54,680 --> 01:59:57,560
Speaker 3: consequences for their actions, the just penalty for their actions.

2460
01:59:57,960 --> 02:00:01,400
Speaker 3: And if an action if a crime, if sind Merritt's death,

2461
02:00:01,680 --> 02:00:04,480
Speaker 3: then giving the death penalty people to who choose to

2462
02:00:04,520 --> 02:00:08,080
Speaker 3: do it is an act of upholding their dignity, showing

2463
02:00:08,080 --> 02:00:11,160
Speaker 3: them the dignity the value that they have as free agents.

2464
02:00:11,680 --> 02:00:14,240
Speaker 3: So I just I just agree with JP Morland that

2465
02:00:14,240 --> 02:00:17,640
Speaker 3: the death penalty isn't necessarily an active Uh you know

2466
02:00:18,000 --> 02:00:19,720
Speaker 3: a failure to uphold dignity or love.

2467
02:00:19,800 --> 02:00:21,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I suppose to come back would be you know,

2468
02:00:21,360 --> 02:00:23,880
Speaker 1: it's not the obliteration of their existence either too. So

2469
02:00:23,960 --> 02:00:26,640
Speaker 1: there are these other nuances and levels that we could

2470
02:00:26,680 --> 02:00:26,960
Speaker 1: go into.

2471
02:00:27,720 --> 02:00:29,120
Speaker 5: Those are both great questions.

2472
02:00:29,160 --> 02:00:31,120
Speaker 2: But I do have to say, this is the first

2473
02:00:31,160 --> 02:00:33,440
Speaker 2: show I've done where one of my guests has quoted

2474
02:00:33,480 --> 02:00:37,720
Speaker 2: superheroes more than I did. So big time kudos on that.

2475
02:00:37,800 --> 02:00:40,000
Speaker 2: You brought Thanos into this, You brought X Men three

2476
02:00:40,000 --> 02:00:44,080
Speaker 2: into this. You started with and I believe I'm not

2477
02:00:44,200 --> 02:00:46,640
Speaker 2: a superhero movie. Maybe we could Oh, I thought you

2478
02:00:46,680 --> 02:00:48,080
Speaker 2: were just going to debate for the sake of fun.

2479
02:00:48,080 --> 02:00:50,000
Speaker 2: All right, good, Yeah, palm and grant on that one.

2480
02:00:50,560 --> 02:00:53,400
Speaker 2: I expected that one to come. All right, there is

2481
02:00:53,680 --> 02:00:55,760
Speaker 2: a ton more that we could we could say. Here,

2482
02:00:55,840 --> 02:00:57,400
Speaker 2: let me let me let me end with this question

2483
02:00:57,440 --> 02:00:57,920
Speaker 2: on both of you.

2484
02:00:58,000 --> 02:00:58,520
Speaker 5: Wayne here.

2485
02:00:59,120 --> 02:01:01,560
Speaker 2: One of the things that I think feared about this conversation,

2486
02:01:02,040 --> 02:01:04,880
Speaker 2: having this conversation, and one of the students earlier echoed this,

2487
02:01:05,600 --> 02:01:09,000
Speaker 2: is that people would walk away and say, I'm more

2488
02:01:09,080 --> 02:01:14,840
Speaker 2: confused than when I started, and actually less clarity on

2489
02:01:14,880 --> 02:01:19,360
Speaker 2: what view they should have. So what encouragement would you

2490
02:01:19,400 --> 02:01:22,040
Speaker 2: give to people watching this scene. I just spent two

2491
02:01:22,120 --> 02:01:25,440
Speaker 2: hours here trying to land this plane. Now I've got

2492
02:01:25,480 --> 02:01:28,960
Speaker 2: more questions. What's next? Why don't you give your thoughts Chris,

2493
02:01:29,080 --> 02:01:30,320
Speaker 2: and then Paul wrap us up?

2494
02:01:31,880 --> 02:01:35,120
Speaker 3: I think we as Christians need to be more comfortable

2495
02:01:35,240 --> 02:01:37,280
Speaker 3: with not having all the answers right away.

2496
02:01:37,360 --> 02:01:37,680
Speaker 5: Amen.

2497
02:01:39,360 --> 02:01:41,840
Speaker 3: The whole all of church history is a record of

2498
02:01:41,920 --> 02:01:47,080
Speaker 3: Christians trying to work together, digging into God's word, listening

2499
02:01:47,120 --> 02:01:48,720
Speaker 3: to the Holy Spirit, and trying to come to the

2500
02:01:48,760 --> 02:01:51,560
Speaker 3: truth together on a whole host of issues. And yeah,

2501
02:01:51,600 --> 02:01:54,280
Speaker 3: I agree that if you've been raised to believe that

2502
02:01:54,320 --> 02:01:56,760
Speaker 3: the only view of hell is this eternal, conscious torment view,

2503
02:01:57,040 --> 02:01:59,200
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden somebody like me comes around

2504
02:01:59,200 --> 02:02:01,240
Speaker 3: and says what, at least on the surface sound like

2505
02:02:01,240 --> 02:02:04,240
Speaker 3: they're pretty compelling, it's going to leave people confused. But

2506
02:02:04,280 --> 02:02:06,360
Speaker 3: part of that's just because they've only been exposed to

2507
02:02:06,440 --> 02:02:09,520
Speaker 3: one strain of thought on this topic. If they were

2508
02:02:09,560 --> 02:02:12,280
Speaker 3: to be at if they were to hear a conversation

2509
02:02:12,320 --> 02:02:15,240
Speaker 3: between say a Calvinist and an Armenian, and they're already

2510
02:02:15,240 --> 02:02:17,440
Speaker 3: familiar with that debate, that's not going to leave them,

2511
02:02:17,800 --> 02:02:19,480
Speaker 3: you know, scared and confused. They're can be like, Oh,

2512
02:02:19,520 --> 02:02:21,520
Speaker 3: this is an interesting conversation. I want to be a

2513
02:02:21,560 --> 02:02:23,480
Speaker 3: part of this. And that's what I want is as

2514
02:02:23,520 --> 02:02:25,760
Speaker 3: I want to encourage people to say, I don't have

2515
02:02:25,840 --> 02:02:29,200
Speaker 3: to land immediately on an answer to this question. I

2516
02:02:29,240 --> 02:02:33,200
Speaker 3: can take my time, I can talk to other believers

2517
02:02:33,240 --> 02:02:35,760
Speaker 3: and we can wrestle together and sharpen each other's iron.

2518
02:02:36,160 --> 02:02:39,360
Speaker 3: I think that's beautiful. I think it's beautiful when God's

2519
02:02:39,360 --> 02:02:42,320
Speaker 3: people disagree in a way that honors their Lord, which

2520
02:02:42,400 --> 02:02:44,360
Speaker 3: is exactly what we're doing here. And I think I

2521
02:02:44,440 --> 02:02:46,960
Speaker 3: think if people can see the beauty in that and

2522
02:02:47,320 --> 02:02:50,600
Speaker 3: find comfort in being able to not have hard and

2523
02:02:50,640 --> 02:02:53,120
Speaker 3: fast answers right away for some time, I think it'll

2524
02:02:53,160 --> 02:02:53,960
Speaker 3: resolve that concern.

2525
02:02:54,360 --> 02:02:57,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I certainly would echo that call for all

2526
02:02:57,440 --> 02:03:00,200
Speaker 1: of us to engage in a kind of theological hospitality

2527
02:03:00,520 --> 02:03:03,120
Speaker 1: where we welcome that kind of conversation. We want to

2528
02:03:03,200 --> 02:03:05,600
Speaker 1: have iron sharpening iron. And I think what this is

2529
02:03:05,680 --> 02:03:11,200
Speaker 1: illustrating is that Chris is ably defended his view and

2530
02:03:11,960 --> 02:03:14,800
Speaker 1: you know, whatever people think of mine. But but but

2531
02:03:14,920 --> 02:03:20,440
Speaker 1: I think that it illustrates that we're not dealing with heresies.

2532
02:03:20,920 --> 02:03:24,480
Speaker 1: We're dealing with people who are committed to the scriptures,

2533
02:03:24,680 --> 02:03:28,839
Speaker 1: really searching the scriptures. People who like Chris had thought differently,

2534
02:03:28,880 --> 02:03:31,520
Speaker 1: but his mind was changed by examining the scriptures. And

2535
02:03:31,600 --> 02:03:33,520
Speaker 1: this is really the spirit of the Brions, of searching

2536
02:03:33,520 --> 02:03:36,320
Speaker 1: the scriptures daily to see what Paul was saying was so,

2537
02:03:36,840 --> 02:03:39,200
Speaker 1: and we all ought to cultivate that same sort of

2538
02:03:39,200 --> 02:03:41,600
Speaker 1: a spirit. So rather than having that knee jerk reaction,

2539
02:03:41,920 --> 02:03:45,760
Speaker 1: that kind of a negativity, which again has come through,

2540
02:03:45,840 --> 02:03:47,520
Speaker 1: you know, in the conversation with Kirk Cameron, a lot

2541
02:03:47,520 --> 02:03:51,280
Speaker 1: of people just vilifying him and vilifying you know, Gavin

2542
02:03:51,360 --> 02:03:54,400
Speaker 1: Ortland and me for being part of that conversation. Really yeah,

2543
02:03:54,560 --> 02:03:59,880
Speaker 1: just like we're compromising, that we're past then that we

2544
02:04:00,160 --> 02:04:01,920
Speaker 1: that we are kind of you know, that we are

2545
02:04:02,400 --> 02:04:06,800
Speaker 1: engaging with heretics and treating them on an level playing field.

2546
02:04:06,840 --> 02:04:10,320
Speaker 1: And and I think this sort of a conversation illustrates

2547
02:04:10,360 --> 02:04:13,600
Speaker 1: that we are about looking at the scriptures and seeing

2548
02:04:13,640 --> 02:04:16,560
Speaker 1: what fits best with what God, how God has revealed

2549
02:04:16,600 --> 02:04:20,720
Speaker 1: himself in those scriptures, and that we need to understand that,

2550
02:04:20,920 --> 02:04:23,440
Speaker 1: you know, you know, tradition, as helpful as that is,

2551
02:04:23,520 --> 02:04:25,680
Speaker 1: as as how much it shapes us, and so forth.

2552
02:04:25,720 --> 02:04:28,880
Speaker 1: We always ought to be revisiting the scriptures and saying

2553
02:04:29,440 --> 02:04:31,080
Speaker 1: is this you know I've been holding this? Is that

2554
02:04:31,120 --> 02:04:34,480
Speaker 1: actually true? And so so I think this conversation hopefully

2555
02:04:34,520 --> 02:04:37,600
Speaker 1: illustrates the importance of going back, not being having those

2556
02:04:37,640 --> 02:04:41,440
Speaker 1: knee jerk reactions, but but but engaging in theological hospitality,

2557
02:04:41,760 --> 02:04:44,000
Speaker 1: uh in searching the scriptures together. Love it.

2558
02:04:44,640 --> 02:04:49,240
Speaker 2: This has been eye opening. Flew By to me. I

2559
02:04:49,320 --> 02:04:52,960
Speaker 2: thoroughly enjoyed this. You guys have made your case, and

2560
02:04:53,600 --> 02:04:56,080
Speaker 2: you said at the beginning, you're like, you know, gauge

2561
02:04:56,120 --> 02:04:59,160
Speaker 2: the conversation with Kirk camera has it done a respectful fashion.

2562
02:04:59,200 --> 02:05:00,840
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have brought the two of you here if

2563
02:05:00,880 --> 02:05:03,120
Speaker 2: I didn't think we'd have the same kind of conversation.

2564
02:05:03,680 --> 02:05:05,120
Speaker 5: You both modeled that well.

2565
02:05:05,600 --> 02:05:08,400
Speaker 2: By the way, for people listening and watching, I'm going

2566
02:05:08,440 --> 02:05:10,560
Speaker 2: to go live Tuesday with at least one or two

2567
02:05:10,880 --> 02:05:14,120
Speaker 2: Talbot professors to get their reaction, and as you can

2568
02:05:14,160 --> 02:05:17,920
Speaker 2: tell from the questions in the audience, Talbot professors will

2569
02:05:17,960 --> 02:05:21,400
Speaker 2: hold the traditional view most of our students do, although

2570
02:05:21,400 --> 02:05:23,080
Speaker 2: there might be more variety than I'm aware of. I

2571
02:05:23,080 --> 02:05:25,160
Speaker 2: have no idea actually what our students hold on this

2572
02:05:25,200 --> 02:05:26,720
Speaker 2: one interestingly enough, so.

2573
02:05:26,720 --> 02:05:28,360
Speaker 5: We'll come back, We'll get our wait make sure you

2574
02:05:28,440 --> 02:05:28,760
Speaker 5: join us.

2575
02:05:28,800 --> 02:05:32,080
Speaker 2: It'll be Tuesday at four point thirty Pacific standard time

2576
02:05:32,120 --> 02:05:35,120
Speaker 2: for about an hour. We'll get some theology professors on

2577
02:05:35,200 --> 02:05:39,200
Speaker 2: here to give their two cents. You could also email

2578
02:05:39,280 --> 02:05:42,840
Speaker 2: questions into Questions at Sean McDowell dot org and just

2579
02:05:42,920 --> 02:05:46,240
Speaker 2: put revelation or something, or put one of these passages

2580
02:05:46,520 --> 02:05:49,080
Speaker 2: or hell and we'll do our best to get to

2581
02:05:49,160 --> 02:05:51,840
Speaker 2: some of those. If you're watching or listening, make sure

2582
02:05:51,880 --> 02:05:54,040
Speaker 2: you hit subscribe, and please let us know. This is

2583
02:05:54,080 --> 02:05:58,240
Speaker 2: a much longer conversation than we've often had on this channel.

2584
02:05:58,560 --> 02:06:01,440
Speaker 2: There's probably a little bit more depth nuancing a lot

2585
02:06:01,440 --> 02:06:04,200
Speaker 2: of things than we typically do. Let me know if

2586
02:06:04,240 --> 02:06:07,160
Speaker 2: this is helpful and if you want more conversation like

2587
02:06:07,200 --> 02:06:10,520
Speaker 2: this in person, and what topics you would want us

2588
02:06:10,760 --> 02:06:14,000
Speaker 2: to discuss. Thanks for listening and tuning in, and thanks

2589
02:06:14,040 --> 02:06:15,440
Speaker 2: to our students for joining us.

2590
02:06:15,840 --> 02:06:16,720
Speaker 5: We'll see you tuesday.

2591
02:06:17,000 --> 02:06:19,680
Speaker 2: Hey friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that

2592
02:06:19,800 --> 02:06:22,720
Speaker 2: fall button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning

2593
02:06:22,760 --> 02:06:25,120
Speaker 2: in haven't done this yet and it makes a huge

2594
02:06:25,160 --> 02:06:27,880
Speaker 2: difference in helping us reach and equip more people and

2595
02:06:27,920 --> 02:06:32,320
Speaker 2: build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every

2596
02:06:32,520 --> 02:06:35,640
Speaker 2: review helps Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell Show,

2597
02:06:35,760 --> 02:06:39,600
Speaker 2: brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University,

2598
02:06:39,640 --> 02:06:42,960
Speaker 2: where we have on campus and online programs and apologetic

2599
02:06:43,000 --> 02:06:46,280
Speaker 2: spiritual information, marriage and family, Bible, and so much more.

2600
02:06:46,360 --> 02:06:49,360
Speaker 2: We would love to train you to more effectively, live, teach,

2601
02:06:49,440 --> 02:06:52,280
Speaker 2: and defend the Christian faith today, and we will see

2602
02:06:52,320 --> 02:06:54,160
Speaker 2: you when the next episode drops.