1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: Life Audio. This is Donna Jones and you are listening 2 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: to That's just what I needed. Hey, friend, if you've 3 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: ever been in a conversation where you've walked away thinking, Wow, 4 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: that was just what I needed, you know how life 5 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: giving that can be, Well, that's what this podcast is 6 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,639 Speaker 1: all about. We're women who want to know, love, and 7 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: follow God in our real lives, but sometimes wonder just 8 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: how to do it. So each week we'll talk about 9 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: what following God looks like in the midst of daily 10 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:42,279 Speaker 1: demands and crazy cultural chaos. Because this isn't just what 11 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: we need, it's actually exactly what we need. Hey, hey, 12 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: my friend, welcome to the podcast. I have another wonderful 13 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: interview for you today. You're going to be so inspired. 14 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: But before we jump into that, I want to remind 15 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,319 Speaker 1: you that we are doing a book giveaway. A couple 16 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: weeks ago, I interviewed Becky Keith, who wrote the book 17 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: of versa Day for the Anxious Soul, a devotion. It's 18 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: so good and so we're doing a giveaway. So all 19 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 1: you have to do is leave a review on this podcast, 20 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:16,479 Speaker 1: Easy peasy. I will be reading one of those reviews 21 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: on the air, and I will then send you your 22 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: book along the way. So it's such an easy way 23 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:24,960 Speaker 1: to whin a free book, and it is a great one. 24 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: You don't want to miss out on the opportunity to 25 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:29,839 Speaker 1: win this book. Well, let me tell you a little 26 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: bit about today's inspiring guest. His name is Nathan Clarkson. 27 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: He's an award winning actor, a Netflix trending filmmaker, best 28 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: selling author, and the host of the Overthinkers podcast. Okay, 29 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: right there? Can you just love that name? Right? Overthinkers podcast. 30 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: Nathan has been featured on The Today's Show and the 31 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: La Times, Variety magazine, Relevant magazine focus on the family. 32 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: And he is the son of the best selling and 33 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: beloved Christian author and mentor, Sally Clarkson. So help me 34 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: welcome my guest and author of his brand new book, 35 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:11,959 Speaker 1: The Worst, Nathan Clarkson. Well, Nathan, welcome to the podcast. 36 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for having me. It's great 37 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 2: to be here. 38 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: Okay, I'm excited to hear your story. So much of 39 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: your story, I don't know. I just read a little 40 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: bit about it and I'm going to tell you it 41 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: just peaked my interest so much. You have written this 42 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: book called The Worst, which who writes a book called 43 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: the Worst. Tell us the subtitle, and you open the 44 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: book with a really honest story. So tell us the 45 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: subtitle and then tell us why you just kind of 46 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: dove right into a really honest story from the beginning. 47 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I wrote my book I'm the Worst because 48 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 2: something that has been kind of percolating my mind for 49 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 2: many years. And the subtitle is how freedom is found 50 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 2: in admitting our faults. And this book is, you know, 51 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 2: I've been writing for a while. It's probably the most 52 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 2: personal project I'd ever worked on, and just one. You know, 53 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 2: in the title, I'm literally talking about myself as the worst. 54 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 2: And I opened up the book and I share what 55 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 2: I do throughout the entire book is I share stories 56 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 2: about myself kind of these moments throughout my life in 57 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 2: realizing and having to face kind of the darker parts 58 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:16,239 Speaker 2: of myself. 59 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: You know. 60 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 2: I was born a pastor's kid. My mom was a 61 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 2: best song Christian author. I looked like the good Christian kid. 62 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 2: I went to youth group. I knew Bible verses, I 63 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 2: started a theology podcast. I knew all the right words 64 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 2: to say, I knew how to look, and for a 65 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 2: long time I had gotten to a place where I 66 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 2: had convinced not only the world, but I convinced myself 67 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 2: that I was good right, that I was had it altogether. 68 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 2: And it was I opened up the book I talked 69 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 2: about the first time I realized I wasn't good, and 70 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 2: are one of the first times. And you know, that 71 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 2: was one of these moments when I was there the 72 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 2: teenager and I had made, you know, some mistakes with 73 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 2: the girl, and I was feeling this crushing guilt in 74 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 2: this realization that I don't know if I'm as good 75 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 2: as I thought I was. I was facing there and 76 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 2: my young adolescent yeard I was facing my darkness and 77 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 2: my brokenness. And that was kind of one of the 78 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 2: first moments I remember in a long series of moments 79 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 2: of my entire life thus far where, over and over again, 80 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 2: I think that I have it all together. I think 81 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 2: that I'm good. You know, that's where my mind goes. 82 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 2: I want to believe the best of myself when I 83 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 2: created this facadoness image for the world and for myself 84 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:24,359 Speaker 2: to believe that I'm good. But it's one moment a 85 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 2: long series of moments that have experienced since where I 86 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 2: have to come face to face with my brokenness, with 87 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 2: my darkness, with my fractures and failures, and it can 88 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 2: be a really scary and difficult thing. But what I 89 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 2: found the more times, you know, as I've grown up 90 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: and had to face my brokenness over and over again, is, 91 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,919 Speaker 2: you know, the more times that I've done this, that 92 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 2: it's actually all those fears that I have when having, 93 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 2: you know, worried about it if I were what if 94 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 2: I had to show up my brokenness, what if I 95 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 2: had to confront it, all those fears about maybe I 96 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 2: won't be worthy of love if I have to look 97 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 2: at my broken it's maybe I won't be able invited 98 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 2: in the communities that I want to be, Maybe I 99 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 2: will be disqualified from telling a good story with my 100 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 2: life if I have to face these things, and all 101 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 2: those fears seem to disappear. What I've actually done the 102 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 2: thing and faced my brokenness and my darkness, and what 103 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 2: I found there was not an end to my story, 104 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,039 Speaker 2: not a stealing of love. But rather that's where I 105 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 2: began to experience true and conditional love. And that's where 106 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 2: I began to experience a news story. But it only 107 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 2: came through actually facing my darkness and brokenness and you know, 108 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 2: that's kind of a personal reason I wrote this book, 109 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 2: but if I pull out, there's a cultural reason too here. 110 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 2: You know, in the past few years, there's you know, 111 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 2: we talk about how divided we are now, we talk 112 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 2: about how things are so separated. But I have noticed 113 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 2: that a couple of things that everybody agrees on. One 114 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 2: is that the world is a broken place. Everybody agrees 115 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 2: that there's problems in the world. Right, no matter where 116 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 2: you are politically, religiously, I don't matter where you come 117 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 2: from the background, all of us know that the world 118 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 2: a broken place. We can see it on the news, 119 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 2: we can see it on social media, we can see 120 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 2: it when we walk outside of our door. And the 121 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 2: second thing that we all agree on is we know 122 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 2: whose fault it is. It's theirs, the other people, from 123 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 2: the other tribe, from the other political persuasion, the other race, 124 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 2: and againder what have you, the other belief system. We 125 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 2: all kind of have this proclivity to go, Okay, the 126 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 2: world is messed up, but it's their fault, and we 127 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 2: point our fingers. And Jesus talked about this, right, We 128 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 2: talked about how we've become so good at taking aspects 129 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 2: out of others while knowing the log on our own. 130 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 2: And one thing I know about people is that we're 131 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 2: really good at seeing the sins and darkness and failures 132 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 2: of everybody else, but we're really bad at seeing our own. 133 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 2: And what I've noticed we were both in the personal 134 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 2: story and kind of this larger cultural one, is that 135 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 2: the more we ignore those dark places and ourselves and 136 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 2: our own groups and our own persons, the more those 137 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 2: fractures grow, and the more the sickness spreads. And so 138 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 2: I guess as I look around the world and see 139 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 2: so much brokeness, and I look at Jesus and how 140 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 2: he talked, I think, really at the heart of it, 141 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 2: the way we're going to us at brokenness and see 142 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 2: the world begin to experience ademption is when we actually 143 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 2: start paying attention to our own problems, our own darkness. 144 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 2: And when we do, I know, it's scary and uncomfortable, 145 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 2: but Jesus meets us there with his love and redemption 146 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 2: and offer us a new story going forward. So that's 147 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 2: kind of where the book came out. I know that 148 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 2: was long winded. I'm so sorry, but that's kind of 149 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 2: where the book came out of and what inspired me 150 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 2: to write this story. 151 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so you're touching on some things that are 152 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: they're actually really deep but very important. And as you 153 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: were talking, my mind reeled back to this was decades ago, 154 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: and it was a really good friend of ours and 155 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: his wife and they were having this argument and he 156 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: kept saying, but I'm a good guy, like she was 157 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: pointing out some things in him, But okay, why is 158 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: this because I'm a good guy. I'm a good guy. 159 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: I'm a good guy, and kept repeating that over and 160 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: over and over again, to the point when they told 161 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: us the story we were laughing. And then after that 162 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: we always referred to him as but you're a good guy, right, 163 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: And I mean, it became kind of a joke, you know, 164 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: between our friend group. But as I've thought about that, 165 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: like what he was saying is basically what all of 166 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: us say, because it's really scary to admit I'm not 167 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: a good guy. There's parts of me that's not a 168 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: good I mean, and to see, Nathan, I relate to 169 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: you because I became a Christian as a child. But 170 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: even if you don't, none of us want to be 171 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: thought of as not good. I mean, that's like the 172 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: core of who we want to be right. So that's 173 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: why we get so defensive about it, and because that 174 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: makes us super vulnerable to realize like, oh, I'm not 175 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: all good and gosh, it takes us to a really, 176 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: like I said, vulnerable place. But it is where healing starts. 177 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: That's what you're basically saying. 178 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 2: Right, absolutely. I think a lot of the reason we 179 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:46,839 Speaker 2: have so much difficulty admitting our flaws, fractures, failures is 180 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 2: kind of what I alluded to in the beginning. And 181 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 2: this one God experiences it roots out of fear. It 182 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 2: roots out of this fear that if we did we 183 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 2: paid attention and recognized all this darkness that we have, 184 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 2: of the brokenness that we all have, or other people 185 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 2: saw it, or even that God saw it. That again, 186 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 2: it kind of hits at this cornique. You know, there's 187 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 2: a few things that we all need as humans. We 188 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 2: need other people, We need unconditional love, and we need 189 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 2: purpose and to believe. And so we fear that if 190 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 2: we paid attention or had our brokenness scene, that we 191 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 2: wouldn't be loved, that we wouldn't have people around us, 192 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 2: and that we would be described from telling a good 193 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 2: story with our lives. And so we run away as 194 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 2: far as we can, because we go, oh no, if 195 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 2: I have to face that, then I'm not going to 196 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 2: get a thing as I need and I want. And 197 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 2: there a fear there, and I totally understand that fear. 198 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 2: I've had that fear as well, and I still struggle 199 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 2: with that. But what I have found is every single 200 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 2: time that I have brought my brokenness to God and 201 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 2: allowed it to be seen and acknowledged it, my fears 202 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 2: of my story ending and nothing loved are totally washed away. 203 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 2: And it's actually we've kind of have this idea that 204 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 2: if we if we face our brokeness, a wall that 205 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 2: will end us will overcome us. What I found is 206 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 2: that when I bring my brokenness and acknowledge and bring 207 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 2: it to God, it's actually a bridge. That's a bridge 208 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 2: to a new story. And it's a bridge to me 209 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 2: experiencing unconditional love in the midst of my failures, and 210 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 2: it's the bridge to me experiencing people who actually love 211 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 2: me and support me. It's a bridge to me starting 212 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 2: a new path into something good and beautiful. And it 213 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 2: can be really, really scary, but there's that step of 214 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 2: faith that we take when we can hardly think confess 215 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 2: our brokenness and need before God, and we actually get 216 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 2: to experience the fullness of His love. 217 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so good. I feel like somebody really needs 218 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 1: to hear that that it's not a wall, it's a bridge, Nathan. 219 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: That's what we say, you know, when somebody comes into 220 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 1: a relationship with Christ. When I invited Christ into my life, 221 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: I had to acknowledge, Okay, I'm a sinner. I therefore 222 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: I need a savior. Right, So you have to acknowledge 223 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: your brokenness, your sinfulness, even to begin a relationship with Jesus. 224 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 1: Here's what I want to ask you. So I read 225 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: somewhere in your bio that you part of this, you 226 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 1: coming to terms with like, oh, I'm maybe not the 227 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 1: good guy that I thought I was. Was you were 228 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 1: doing a documentary because you're a creative, you're a filmmaker, 229 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,439 Speaker 1: You're in that world. So you were doing a documentary 230 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: on a pastor, right? Is this correct? 231 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 2: Well? I was at a it was actually a special 232 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 2: screening for a documentary about a pastor that had been 233 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 2: kind of found out in some really terrible things. And 234 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 2: when I was there, I was, you know, I kind 235 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 2: of got caught up everyone else there. We were talking 236 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 2: about essentially how bad this person was and what they 237 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 2: had done. And that's true, they had done some really, 238 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 2: really awful things. But I noticed in myself as I 239 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 2: was sitting there, kind of going, wait, am I better 240 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 2: than this person? And I started kind of that that thought. 241 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 2: It looked around me and I realized, you know, everyone 242 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 2: here is a central person too. We've all something very 243 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 2: scripted talk, but we've all fallen short of God's standard. 244 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 2: And I started kind of of the Holy Spirit was 245 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 2: kind of talking to my mind and going to are 246 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 2: we actually better on this person on screen? And are 247 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 2: you about And I started kind of having this panic attack, 248 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 2: and I walked outside and I was thinking about I 249 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 2: think that it's so easy for me the watching documentary 250 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 2: and feel better than someone and or you know, we 251 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 2: can see every day if people get canceled online to 252 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 2: look at their sins they got found out, I can 253 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 2: feel better and trying to join the mob and cancel them. 254 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 2: But if we do the introspection and take my eyes 255 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,559 Speaker 2: off of them and their sins and I feel for myself, 256 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 2: I go, wow, I have big, big problems too. I 257 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 2: fall in major ways. You know, when Jesus, I remember 258 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 2: that you know the amazing story where he talks about 259 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 2: even look on a woman with lust. It's adult. You 260 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 2: can if you hate your brother and your heart, it's murdering. 261 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 2: He kind of changed the whole structure to where we 262 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,839 Speaker 2: actually all are dealing with brokenness, and it's easy to 263 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 2: look at other people have broken us again, to take 264 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 2: a spec out of their eye. But I remember that 265 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 2: night sitting there in New York City after watch that 266 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 2: documents and all the catharsis of watching someone else's sins 267 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 2: washed away as I actually started thinking of my own. 268 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 2: And then, you know what, I think that it's only 269 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 2: the documentary and saw every one in my life that 270 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 2: I have things that I'm ashamed of and that I've done, 271 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 2: that we're wrong and I shouldn't have an I have 272 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 2: things that God had to forgive me for too. And now, 273 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 2: all of a sudden, that realization was one of the 274 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 2: things that kind of sparked this book. And while of 275 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 2: course we call out bad behavior, we have to remember 276 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 2: that we all are broken and immediate savior and grace, 277 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,439 Speaker 2: and that can feel really uncomfortable, but a really necessary 278 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 2: thing for us all, particularly in an age when we're 279 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 2: so quick to throw rocks and cancel people so important. 280 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 2: It kind of keep that mentality of yes. But I 281 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 2: talked about all of us needing forgiveness and why that 282 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 2: is something that I continued to keep funting center in 283 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 2: our minds as we go about removering in this world today. 284 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: That is good. Okay, So this is interesting to me 285 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: because that was a pivotal moment for you watching this documentary, 286 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: seeing this sin of this person and then realizing, like, 287 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,199 Speaker 1: wait a minute, I have my own sin, right, maybe 288 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: not his, but still mine. So sometimes if we become 289 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: aware of our own sin, our own shortcomings, that leads 290 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: to a lot of guilt and shame and self condemnation, right, 291 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: which is part of the reason we don't want to 292 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: admit it because we don't want to feel those things. 293 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: But that's what the evil one wants. Jesus wants freedom. 294 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: I mean, that's why it says the thief comes to steal, 295 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: kill and destroy. But I have come that you would 296 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: have life and have it abundantly to the full. So 297 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: Jesus is wanting us to have this freedom, this grace, 298 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: this mercy, this true holiness right, not like just an 299 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: outside So how did you then stop yourself from having 300 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: self condemnation and then kind of allow yourself to really 301 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: receive grace. I'm asking this especially in light of the 302 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: fact that you were brought up in a very religious, 303 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: do the right thing kind of environment. 304 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. And one of the best 305 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 2: ways I can kind of exemplify this is this past all, 306 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 2: I experienced some pretty serious health issues. And there were 307 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 2: health issues that came as a result of me having 308 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 2: ignored things for quite a while, and they all kind 309 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 2: of piled up and it seemed like out of nowhere, 310 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 2: but they weren't there many years, and me having ignored 311 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 2: acknowledging the small sign of healthish they had, and they 312 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 2: came out in larger ways. And I've always been something 313 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 2: who has not enjoyed going to the doctor. It's uncomfortable, 314 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 2: it's painful, sometimes it's inconvenient, and I have done whatever 315 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 2: I tend to avoid going to the doctor because anytime 316 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 2: I went, they would tell me something I need to do, 317 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 2: and I didn't like that. I want to have to 318 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 2: pay to that. I don't want to change exactly. And 319 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 2: this past fall, I all of a sudden, I had 320 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 2: these huge health issues that were I feel like they 321 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 2: came out of nowhere and totally took up in my life, 322 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 2: and I felt like I was drowning. I didn't know 323 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 2: what to do, and as someone who always hate to 324 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 2: go to the doctor, all the sudden I had to 325 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 2: go to the doctor a lot, and I found myself 326 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 2: over the weeks and over the months of going to 327 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 2: the doctor, suddenly that dislike of going to the doctor 328 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 2: faded away and I actually loved it. I looked forward 329 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 2: to it, not because it was super comfortable, not because 330 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 2: it was super fun, but rather I started learning that 331 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 2: every time I went to the doctor, that was one 332 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 2: step closer to healing that I so desired and needed. 333 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 2: And it was uncomfortable and it was painful. I had 334 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 2: things shoved down my throat and into my nose, and 335 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 2: it was not comfortable, sometimes painful, but every one of 336 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 2: those visits brought me closer to healing and brought me 337 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 2: closer to wholeness. And so suddenly I became someone who 338 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 2: was willing and ready. I want to go get my 339 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 2: check out. I want some of the doctor tell me 340 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 2: what was wrong with me, because I had actually done 341 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 2: the work. And so that's what it is for us 342 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 2: and what I want to say about of course, that 343 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 2: we all have a fear if we acknowledge our brokenness, 344 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 2: that we're going to drown and self hated, and many 345 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 2: of us I've experience and self hatred and shame for 346 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 2: a lot of our lives. So what I reply to 347 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 2: that is two things. One, God is a doctor. He's 348 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 2: not there to bring you retribution, but we'll have a restoration. 349 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 2: Like a doctor, he wants to bring a wholeness to you. 350 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 2: So if you go with your sickness and talk about 351 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 2: your sickness with him, that's not where you're going to 352 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 2: find someone who's angry, you guess. For someone's going to 353 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 2: find someone who's ready and willing and has the tools 354 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 2: and the wisdom to walk with you into healing. You know, 355 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 2: we have this idea that if we face our darkness 356 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 2: that we're going to be swallowed in shame. But rather, 357 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 2: when we face our darkness and being before God, what 358 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 2: we're swallowing is his love and his mercy and his grace. 359 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 2: And the longer that you try to avoid, just like 360 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 2: I did, I didn't want to go to the doctor. 361 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 2: The longer you try to avoid the for the sickness 362 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 2: and the spreads and the sooner you go to the doctor, 363 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 2: something you go to God with your brokenness, the sooner 364 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 2: you can experience healing. But if you forget, if you 365 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 2: have that fear, you need to know what you can expect. 366 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 2: Read scripture. What you'll find is it talks about God 367 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 2: as a loving God, a healing God, a gracious God, 368 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 2: a merciful God. Remind yourself of that, and any condemnation 369 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 2: that you feel is not from him. He talk about therefore, 370 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 2: I do not want to bring condemnation. I can't remember 371 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 2: the exact verse. 372 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: Romans eight one. Yeah, there is therefore now no condemnation 373 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: for those who are in Christ Jesus. 374 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, thank you, thank you, no condemnation. And so 375 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 2: if we can remember that with any condemnation, well it's 376 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 2: not from God with myself, but it might be from 377 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 2: other people, but it's not from God. That's something that's 378 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 2: really powerful as we learn this practice of acknowledging our darkness. 379 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 2: And so there's no commination from God, only restoration. 380 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 1: No condemnation, only restoration. That's really good. That's really good. Okay, 381 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick break and when we 382 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 1: come back, I have lots more questions for you. Okay, Nate, 383 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: then I love what you just said. There is no condemnation, 384 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 1: there's only restoration. That is just such an important truth 385 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: when we're talking about brokenness and coming to Jesus. You 386 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: write a lot about weakness and dependence on God. So 387 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: what do you think people misunderstand about strength in the 388 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 1: Christian life. 389 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 2: That's a great question. It's one that I've explored for 390 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 2: many years of my life trying to understand because we 391 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 2: all have a different kind of conception of what strength 392 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 2: is and particularly what it looks like. And you know, 393 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 2: we can have these ideas that strength looks like a 394 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 2: powerful politician or someone rich, or you know, a superhero 395 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 2: who's strong, physically strong, And we have these ideas of 396 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 2: what strength looks like. And very often, if someone who's independent, 397 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 2: you can do it all by themselves, it doesn't need 398 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 2: any help. And that is something that I have I 399 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 2: still take on. I want to do it by myself. 400 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 2: I want to say, hey, I did this, I didn't 401 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 2: even need help. I got it. And what I found 402 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 2: as I've grown closer to God is that true strength 403 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 2: is not being able to point to yourself and say 404 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 2: idea about myself. True strength is actually the bravery to 405 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 2: admit you need help is the bravery and the courage 406 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 2: to ask God for support is a true strength is 407 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 2: actually allowing God and people around you to work through 408 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 2: them into your life. That's really true bravery is someone who, 409 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 2: when they have an addiction goes to AA and admits 410 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 2: their addiction. True bravery is someone who messed up big 411 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 2: and is willing to go and ask for forgiveness. To 412 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 2: bravery and strength, any of us who are broken and 413 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 2: have messed up something like we all do, and be 414 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 2: willing to allow God to walk with us. That's true strength. 415 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 2: It's not by saying we did it all by ourselves. 416 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 2: There we're totally independent. True strength is allowing God to 417 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 2: walk with I mean because it's a strength bulth of me. 418 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 1: That is true. It takes a lot of strength to 419 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 1: be able to admit you're wrong or because its humility, 420 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: and that's only the most strong people are able to 421 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 1: be humble. So that's really good. So what would you 422 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: say to someone? And I want to do this question 423 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 1: in two parts. First, I want to ask you what 424 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: would you say to someone who feels like they've blown it? 425 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 1: They're listening to you, They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 426 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: but I've blown it too big to receive God's grace 427 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: or to be redeemed or or maybe even there you 428 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: think things like, okay, yeah, I can like partially be redeemed, 429 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: but not totally because this is a big thing that 430 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:22,199 Speaker 1: I did. What would you say to that person? 431 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 2: If you are someone who feels like you have blown 432 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 2: it too big, you were beyond grace, that you were 433 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 2: beyond mercy, and you feel that you have borne it 434 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 2: too big, Welcome to the cloud, is what I'd say. 435 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 2: The church is filled with people who have blown it. Actually, 436 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 2: all of humanity, all of us have blown it. That's 437 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 2: kind of the story of humanity. We see it all 438 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 2: the way back in Genesis of Adam and Eve. If 439 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 2: you feel that you have blown it, welcome to the club. 440 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 2: And if you walk through scripture, if you look at David, 441 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 2: if you look at Gideon, if you look at Eater, 442 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 2: if you look at Rahab, if you look at so 443 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 2: so many people in Scripture, You're going to find a 444 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 2: lot of people who blew it and God uses And 445 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 2: that's kind of the amazing and wonderful thing that's so countercultural, 446 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 2: you know, and we have so much cancel culture that's 447 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 2: kind of swirling around us. I've lived and working in 448 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 2: Hollywood for many years of my life, and there's this 449 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 2: whole idea of canceling someone because they blew it, because 450 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 2: they did something wrong. And I'm not about justifying, you know, 451 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 2: bad behavior or things. I think we should call those 452 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 2: things out. What I am about is all of us 453 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 2: recognizing our own ways that we blow it all the time. 454 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 2: And yeah, so if you're struggling to it, I blew 455 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 2: it too far, remember that maybe in this culture and 456 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,640 Speaker 2: secular culture, you know, without God, there kind of is 457 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 2: a mentality that you can blow it and that you 458 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 2: can't come back. But within the Kingdom of God, there's forgiveness, 459 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 2: there's restoration, and that he loves using people who are 460 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 2: flawed to show his power and to show his goodness, 461 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 2: I mean goodness, scriture. Just go through scriptch and you'll 462 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 2: find almost every single person that is used blew it 463 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 2: in a huge way. And I don't think those stories 464 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 2: are detailed, and the ways they blew it on accident, 465 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:08,160 Speaker 2: that's for us to see how this person was flawed, 466 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 2: This person had made mistakes, but because of their honesty 467 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 2: and their willingness to engage with God and admit them 468 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 2: God was able to use them. I think that's just 469 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 2: something we can go on for moving scripture. So you 470 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 2: feel like you've won it too big, well, welcome to 471 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 2: the club. So is the saints in the Bible, and 472 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 2: all of us have too. 473 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,640 Speaker 1: Okay, as you were talking, a scripture came to my mind. 474 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 1: And this is not a scripture I think about like 475 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: every day, Nathan, but the scripture came to my mind 476 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: and I only know it so well because I learned 477 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 1: a song that had this scripture to it, and it 478 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: was that it's the scripture. I think it's in Hebrews. 479 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: Everything that was written in the past was written to 480 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 1: teach us so that through endurance and the encouragement of 481 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: the scriptures, we might have hope. And when you were 482 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 1: talking about everything that was written about David, about Abraham, 483 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 1: about Moses, about Rahab, about you know, every Peter about 484 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: It's like, okay, those that's not accident. God wrote those 485 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,360 Speaker 1: to give us endurance and encouragement so that we could 486 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 1: have hope that God could use us to redeem us too. 487 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 1: So I love that. So Okay, now I'm going to 488 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: go deep, even deeper, are you ready for this one. 489 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: Let's do it, Okay, so I can understand and even embrace. Okay, 490 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: be really honest before the Lord, because before the Lord 491 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: there's no condemnation. Jesus said, Hey, I didn't come to 492 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: call the righteous, but sinners. I you know, it's the 493 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: sick community to doctor, going to your doctor illustration. So 494 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: I can understand, like, Okay, if I go to God 495 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: and I'm super honest, I'm going to find restoration. I'm 496 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: going to find unconditional love. I'm going to find healing. 497 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to find transformation. But I may not find 498 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 1: that if I'm honest with other people, even other Christians, 499 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 1: I might be shamed. I might be condemned, I might 500 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,719 Speaker 1: be ostracized, I might be talked about. I might be 501 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, we can go down the list, right, 502 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,719 Speaker 1: So talk to us a little bit about that. How 503 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: do we overcome the fear of that? 504 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 2: That is a great question, and it's a difficult one 505 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 2: because God is consistent and unchanging in his love and grace, 506 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:19,199 Speaker 2: and people are fickle and difficult and frustrating. There's an 507 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 2: old story about a priest who someone came to him 508 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,679 Speaker 2: and said, I would join the church. But there's just 509 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 2: too many hypocrits. And the priest replies and said, well, 510 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 2: we could always do one more, and that kind of 511 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 2: gets through this reality that God is amazingly consistent and 512 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 2: we are amazingly not and that can be a really 513 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 2: difficult thing, and that can be very hard, you know. 514 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 2: I so many of my friends who want have showed 515 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 2: interest in God and showed interest in connecting with Him. 516 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 2: One of the biggest hurdles in their journey has been 517 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 2: other Christians. I'm making you so sad, but it's true 518 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 2: because Christians are this collection of broken people, and so 519 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 2: I understand the difficulty. Very often like, Okay, well I 520 00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 2: can be honest about my stuff to God, but how 521 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 2: and I do that with other people? I will be judged. 522 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 2: I'll be quote unquote canceled. Well, I guess a few things. 523 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 2: Is one. I acknowledge how difficult it can be to 524 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 2: find people, but I think it's worth it to try 525 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 2: to seek out and find people who are healthy and 526 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 2: close to God and who have created some sort of 527 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,199 Speaker 2: environment where there's an honesty and authenticity. And this is 528 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 2: an easier said than done. This is a hard task. 529 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 2: It's hard to find a body of believers where you 530 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 2: feel safe enough to acknowledge and talk about your shortcomings. 531 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 2: There's a few signs I have learned that are really 532 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 2: helpful when looking for that. Find a community where other 533 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 2: people are willing to talk about their shortcomings. So I 534 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 2: find so many Christians they oftentimes feel the pressure to 535 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 2: look good in their's whole communities where they try to 536 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 2: look perfect and like they have it all together. And 537 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,919 Speaker 2: I understand that proquility, but I think that if you 538 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 2: can find a community where other people are engaging in 539 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 2: the act to being honest and being truthful and talking 540 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 2: about their need for God, that's one where you're going 541 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 2: to find that is a culture of that, then you're 542 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 2: going to find yourself more at home. They're more able 543 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 2: to be honest and authentic. And again, this is a 544 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,439 Speaker 2: difficult thing. It's hard to find those places. And if 545 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 2: you're unable to find that right now, maybe you will, 546 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 2: but you can't find it currently in your position right now. 547 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 2: Another thing that's helped me through those lonely times that 548 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 2: I haven't found really is I go to the community 549 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 2: of I don't know exactly how to say it, but 550 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 2: books find authors, find pastors, find writers who until you 551 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 2: find that physical community that you feel what you can 552 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 2: connect with in an authentic way, that where God's love 553 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,479 Speaker 2: and grace is very present. Until you can find that, 554 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 2: read and find out the words of other people and 555 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 2: community in support in that seat. Maybe it's a podcast, 556 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 2: maybe it's a pastorad a YouTube series, and maybe it's 557 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 2: it's a book, but whatever, you can surround yourself either 558 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 2: in body or thought, with people who have displayed authenticity 559 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 2: and honesty, and He'll walk with God. 560 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: Oh that's a really good answer. I love that, and 561 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have thought about the second point. But I 562 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: have to admit that there have been times when, in fact, 563 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: I'm reading a book right now that is just absolutely 564 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 1: like water to my soul. So that's a really important aspect. Okay, 565 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: And speaking of books, as we're winding up here, tell 566 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 1: us how we could get a copy of your book, 567 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: connect with you, find out a little bit more about 568 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: you and your work and all of your ministry and 569 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: all that kind of fun stuff. 570 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 2: Absolutely, you can go to my website Nathan Clarkson dot me, 571 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 2: or you can search on a named Nathan Clarkson on 572 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 2: any of the socials. You can also listen to my 573 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 2: podcast called the Overthinkers, But please reach out. I love 574 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 2: connecting with people. I want to hear what you thought 575 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,479 Speaker 2: of the book. I want to hear your questions and thoughts. 576 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 2: And I always love connecting with kindred spirits. So yeah, 577 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 2: that's how you can find me. 578 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: Okay, and just side note the podcast Overthinkers. Okay, Nathan, 579 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: that is so gold. Not that anybody listening could relate 580 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: to that. Oh my goodness. Okay, Nathan, thank you so 581 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: much for sharing your wisdom, sharing your heart from me. 582 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: Totally real And as I said before you even hit record, 583 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: if we're going to be authentic, somebody has to go first, 584 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,959 Speaker 1: and you went first by writing this book, The Worst, 585 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: and I love it. Thank you so much for being 586 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: on the podcast and me just God bless your ministry. 587 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for having me as a pleasure. 588 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: Wasn't that great conversation? Isn't it so funny how when 589 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: we admit that we're just the worst, we realize that 590 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: that is the pathway for experiencing freedom and true unconditional 591 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: love from Jesus. I hope that's the message that you 592 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: embraced today. And as a reminder, don't forget to subscribe 593 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: to this podcast. I have amazing guests come up for you, 594 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: and don't forget to leave a review. That's the way 595 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: you can enter to when the book giveaway. And if 596 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: we aren't connected on social media, follow me at Donna A. 597 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: Jones on Instagram, jump over to my website Donna Jones 598 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: dot org where you will find lots of information and 599 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: you can sign up for my newsletter and blog as well. 600 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: And as always, my friend, I can't wait to see 601 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: you next time, for that's just what I needed.