1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 2: For those of you today who are tuning in, this 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 2: is going to be a heavier episode. We are talking 4 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 2: about the theme and the topic of abuse, abuse and relationships, 5 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,639 Speaker 2: abuse and marriages, how to navigate that, and what it 6 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 2: looks like to navigate leaving those relationships and what can 7 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:24,319 Speaker 2: come after that, the shame, the guilt, the narratives that 8 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 2: maybe we're believing, and how to actually walk out, next 9 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 2: steps and healing. 10 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: So yeah, let's dive in. 11 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, Hello, ladies and gents, and welcome to this 12 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 2: week's episode of the Botton Beloved podcast. If you are 13 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:42,279 Speaker 2: tuning in today, if you've clicked on this episode and 14 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 2: listened to the introduction or read the title, then you 15 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 2: know that this might be a heavy topic. But I 16 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 2: think that this is a very necessary topic to dive into, 17 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 2: the topic of betrayal, of navigating stepping out of relationships 18 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 2: and even maybe the guilt or the shame or the 19 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 2: healing the trauma that needs to be dealt with coming 20 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 2: out of a situation where your expectation with safety, your 21 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 2: expectation was that this would be something beautiful and holy 22 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 2: and the best case scenario, and maybe it didn't go 23 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 2: that way. And for you you're just really navigating or if 24 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 2: you're not in a relationship, knowing what to look for 25 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 2: or to prepare for stepping into relationships. I think that 26 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 2: there's just going to be so many avenues and areas 27 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 2: that we're going to dive into and in touch and 28 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 2: hopefully bring about healing. But I'm not going about this 29 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 2: conversation by myself. I've brought into expert today and blythe 30 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 2: to join me. I'm gonna have her introduce herself here 31 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 2: in a moment. But that's just my hope and prayer 32 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 2: for you all that as you listen, that you feel seen, heard, known, loved, 33 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 2: and especially equipped to navigate this not only in your life, 34 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 2: but in your faith life as well. And thanks for 35 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 2: joining me today. Can you let the audience, the listeners 36 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 2: know a little bit about who you are, what you do, 37 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 2: your expertise, and then we can we can even just 38 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 2: get into your story as well, your background of betrayal trauma. 39 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. 40 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 3: Well, I am the founder and the executive director of 41 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 3: Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I started as a podcast and then 42 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 3: women from all over the world started contacting me with 43 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 3: their concerns and what they were going through and over time, 44 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 3: it evolved into an organization. Over the years, we've now 45 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 3: helped over eight thousand women five after betrayal, and because 46 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 3: I've been in touch with so many women, I've really 47 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 3: learned to see the patterns that they experience when they 48 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 3: experience betrayal. And I've done over two hundred long form 49 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 3: interviews on my podcast, which is an interesting thing because 50 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:01,119 Speaker 3: women are just sharing in their stories of what they've 51 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 3: been what they have been through, and from those stories, 52 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 3: it's doesn't really matter what particular denomination they are. With Christians, 53 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 3: they've run into the same obstacles as they're trying to navigate, 54 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 3: like what do I do? What does God want for me? 55 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 3: How do I move forward? Especially when I want to 56 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 3: do what God wants me to do. My organization is 57 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 3: interfaith in her paradigm, and one of the reasons I. 58 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: Chose to do it that way was because. 59 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 3: As a Christian, I have used prayer and my relationship 60 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 3: with God to figure out what I should do. And 61 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 3: also I've interviewed a lot of women who have been 62 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 3: faced with like spiritual abuse in this instance, and so 63 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 3: I wanted my organization to be interfaith and inner paradigm, 64 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 3: so that wherever a woman was on her journey, she 65 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 3: could get what I think Christ is teaching her even 66 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 3: if I'm not saying Christ said this, and today on 67 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 3: your podcast, I'll be able to share why I think 68 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 3: this is what Christ said in my organization, I said, 69 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 3: just in general, these are healthy relationship. 70 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: Things that we. 71 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 3: Can do to overcome betrayal, just to avoid making someone 72 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 3: feel bad if she's been like coerced or someone has 73 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 3: used scripture against her to make her feel worse, which 74 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 3: you do so well on your channel. 75 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 4: I love it. 76 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I appreciate that. 77 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 2: Yeah. I literally the other day, at the time that 78 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 2: this episode's being recorded, the other day made a whole 79 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 2: post about like Biblical submission and what that looks like 80 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 2: between a husband and wife, even because I've seen people 81 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 2: even manipulate that word submission to coerce, coerce their wives 82 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 2: to just like not even have this sense of agency, 83 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 2: and it breaks my heart. And so I really think 84 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 2: the timing of you coming on here is perfect, and 85 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: because it's something that I've just been diving into biblically 86 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 2: of like, well, what what does God what does he 87 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 2: want for marriage, for the wife, for the husband, for 88 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 2: this whole unit and how can we both model this biblically. 89 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 2: So for those who maybe have had that trauma, I 90 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 2: think that this will be hopefully a very healing conversation 91 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 2: for them. But what started your not just interest in this, 92 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 2: but you have experience in this as well, So can 93 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 2: you kind of share your background with that of not 94 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 2: just your interest in expertise, but even the experience that 95 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 2: you've gone through with betrayal? 96 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, So, like every Christian woman, I wanted to get married, right, 97 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 3: So I was praying to meet the right person. 98 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: I was very. 99 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 3: Interested in marrying someone who had faith in God and 100 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 3: who was like study their scriptures and all that sort 101 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 3: of thing. 102 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 1: So I didn't happen to. 103 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 3: Get married until I was thirty, which was late for 104 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 3: me at least I thought in my community. And I 105 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 3: by that time, I was pretty brave person, you know. 106 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 3: I was very upfront about what I wanted, and so 107 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 3: I would ask men when I dated, like, I'm not 108 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 3: interested in marrying someone who uses pornography, right, these are 109 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:35,840 Speaker 3: my boundaries for marriage, for a sexual relationship in marriage, 110 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 3: this is kind of what I'm looking for. When I 111 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 3: met my husband, he was all for that. He was like, yeah, 112 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 3: that's what I want too. That sounds good, But I 113 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 3: quickly found out that that was not the case. That 114 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 3: he had lied to me and presented something different than 115 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 3: he really was. And this is pretty common. Actually, it's 116 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 3: not like the it's not like it happens to everyone, 117 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 3: but all of us know someone who has been through 118 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 3: this where you thought, like, yeah, you even meet him 119 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 3: at church, right, or you meet them maybe on a 120 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 3: like a religious dating app or something. So when I 121 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 3: found out that he wasn't who, I well, that he 122 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 3: had lied, let's put it that way, because at that 123 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 3: time I didn't really understand that it was a character issue, 124 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 3: so I thought it was just like he was just 125 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 3: maybe sinning, but he wanted to change. So this began 126 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 3: a series of going to different counselors, some of them 127 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 3: like religious, had religious training, some of them just regular therapists, 128 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 3: and we went through so many. I'm coming out with 129 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 3: a book soon and it actually outlines all of the 130 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 3: what happened. But over the years, he kept saying that 131 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 3: he wanted to change, that he was willing to go 132 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 3: to therapy, he was willing to go to twelve Step. 133 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: He was counseling. 134 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 3: With the leadership in our church, and and it just 135 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 3: wasn't getting better. 136 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: I thought it was like. 137 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 3: You know those stock pictures where the stock is going up, 138 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 3: but it kind of like goes up and down. So 139 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 3: I thought our marriage was getting better over time, but 140 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 3: of course we're having like ups and downs when really 141 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 3: we were just going in circles. And I did not 142 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 3: recognize what was truly happening until after. 143 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: He was arrested. So in my case, he was arrested. 144 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 3: And it was after that that I started studying abuse, 145 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 3: which I hadn't studied. I'd been studying addiction, I'd been 146 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 3: studying childhood trauma, you know, to try and help him 147 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 3: like heal from his anger issues and all of these things. 148 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 3: But I don't really studied abuse. And when I studied abuse, 149 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 3: I was. 150 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: Like, what what? 151 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 3: Like I have been going for help for seven years 152 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 3: for my marriage, to heal my marriage, and nobody told 153 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:57,959 Speaker 3: me that this was abuse, and that was really shocking 154 00:08:57,960 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 3: to me. And when I say abuse, I mean emotional 155 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 3: and psychological abuse. 156 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,479 Speaker 4: And so then I thought, wait. 157 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 3: How could I I had a master's degree at that time, 158 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,599 Speaker 3: you know, how could I like be older when I 159 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 3: got married, be highly educated, willing to go for help 160 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,199 Speaker 3: willing to face a problem head on and not realize 161 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 3: what was happening to me and not have the right 162 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 3: tools to know what to do next. And that's how 163 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 3: I started podcasting. And then so many women have been 164 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 3: through this because a lot of the traditional abuse checklists 165 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 3: that women check don't apply to this type of abuse. 166 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: They'll say like, does. 167 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 3: He control your transportation? Well, not really, you know, does 168 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 3: he control your motton? No? 169 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: And so they're like, is what is going on? 170 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 3: So that's how I got That's how I. 171 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: I don't want to say became interested. 172 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 3: It was more like God compelled me to educate women 173 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 3: about this because it's not something that women are educated 174 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 3: about in Sunday school or you know, seminary or you know, 175 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 3: it's just not really a topic that Christians are talk 176 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 3: about a lot. 177 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 4: We talk about, you. 178 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 3: Know, how to have a better marriage and loving and 179 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 3: serving and things like that, but we don't talk a 180 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 3: lot about like what do we do when we're faced 181 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:18,319 Speaker 3: with someone. 182 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: Who is harming us? Yes, how do we navigate this? Yeah? 183 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 2: And I think even some of my friends, because as 184 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 2: you're talking, I'm like, I can think of like a 185 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 2: handful of people who've gone through this where they've gotten 186 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 2: into relationships. And even today I saw someone commented on 187 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 2: my posts and it's like, well, these women should know 188 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 2: better if they're choosing their husbands to submit to them. 189 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 2: I'm like, that's the thing, though, is that they switch up. 190 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 2: They don't expect this to be like a character thing. 191 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:54,319 Speaker 2: People can be very deceptive, like a pastor could be deceptive, 192 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 2: a husband could be deceptive, like anybody could be deceptive 193 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 2: about their character. And then when you get to a 194 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 2: point where it's like, Okay, now you're your mind, now 195 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 2: you're in my inner circle, now we're joined together, it's 196 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 2: like there is more leeway now to display these really 197 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 2: toxic behaviors and habits and abuse. And then I have 198 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 2: found that at least with my friends, and this is 199 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 2: not the case with everyone, but even some of my 200 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 2: friends have had to navigate this and it's been hard 201 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 2: for them, mainly because of the narrative around it or 202 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 2: the shame around it, being in the situation, being out 203 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 2: of the situation. And so I was wondering, could you 204 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 2: maybe speak to that, because I'm sure that there are 205 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: people who are listening who are in these situations today 206 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 2: or are even out of these situations today where there 207 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 2: is still so much shame not just on them, but 208 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 2: maybe even in how they feel they relate to God, 209 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 2: where it's like, you know, God, have I disappointed you 210 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 2: in not because of how scripture has been used to 211 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 2: justify or whatever. I mean, dyllst can go on, right, 212 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 2: each it's nuanced everyone's situation. But I think shame can 213 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 2: be a really big thing for people to the spiritual 214 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 2: shame of it to navigate a situation like that. 215 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, So in my interviews and talking with women, a 216 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 3: lot of women were told and this is the right 217 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 3: thing to say, So it's not the wrong thing to 218 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 3: pray for your husband, right, I'm like, of course, we're 219 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,719 Speaker 3: going to pray for our husband. And yet in this 220 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 3: instance where you're told to pray for your husband and 221 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 3: then he's not getting better, like he's still lying to 222 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 3: you or he's still mad all the time for seemingly 223 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 3: really small reasons, and you can't quite figure out what's 224 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 3: going on. In the case of betrayal, if that behavior 225 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 3: is continuing, the likelihood of him still lying to you 226 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 3: is very high, even if he says he's changed or 227 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,719 Speaker 3: he's never going to do it again, or that he 228 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 3: you know, found Jesus and he is repented, and you're like, 229 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:11,239 Speaker 3: but you're you're not acting like you have You're still unkind, 230 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 3: and so yeah, yeah, it's very difficult to know kind 231 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:22,439 Speaker 3: of what to do. So women kind of think, well, 232 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 3: maybe I just haven't prayed hard enough, or maybe God 233 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 3: doesn't listen to my prayers, maybe he doesn't care about me. 234 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 3: They might also look, and this is really interesting at 235 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 3: other couples who say that they have come out of 236 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 3: this right where they like, he had an affair, let's 237 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 3: just say, and at betrayal, trauma recovery. By the way, 238 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 3: I talk in a gender segregated way because we only 239 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 3: serve women, but I realize that women can have affairs. 240 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 3: Yeah yes, so as I speak, I just don't want 241 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:59,079 Speaker 3: people to be like, well, because that's just the women 242 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 3: that I serve, but that is your direct ministry organization. 243 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, yes exactly. 244 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 3: But so she the woman praying, has this thing like 245 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 3: do I keep praying? 246 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: Is God hearing me? What do I do? And then 247 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: she also gets it from other. 248 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 3: Places like people are like, well, if you prayed more, 249 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 3: maybe he would be better, or if you prayed more, 250 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 3: you could save your marriage or things like that that 251 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 3: feel really terrible, especially if she has been praying as 252 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 3: hard as. 253 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 2: Puts it all on the person who's going through it 254 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 2: and not the person who's doing it. 255 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: To them exactly exactly. 256 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 3: So there's there's that type of shame. There's the shame 257 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 3: that she might feel from maybe she doesn't think she 258 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 3: was a godly wife or that she was good enough 259 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 3: at whatever she thinks God wants, you know, like, oh, 260 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 3: I don't love cooking, but God says I'm supposed to cook, 261 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 3: and I haven't been cooking like perfectly, and so maybe 262 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 3: if I cooked a little better. You know, there's all 263 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 3: of these like internal and external expectations that she feels 264 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 3: like and other people feel like too, that if she 265 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 3: did this, it would solve the problem, when in reality 266 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 3: there's likely in the case of. 267 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 4: My ex and so many. 268 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 3: Other deceptive individuals, they're not repenting and so it's not 269 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 3: going to change. 270 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: Now. 271 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 3: A lot of people ask me, like, well, don't you 272 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 3: believe in repentance, and a hundred percent I do, Like, 273 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 3: I know God can change people, and but I kind 274 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 3: of give the example of the disease of ebola, like 275 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 3: if someone has ebola, can they get better? 276 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 4: From ebola. 277 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 3: Yes they can one hundred percent are they going to hopefully, 278 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 3: But you're not gonna want to be in the same 279 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 3: bed with someone who has ebola, like you are going 280 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 3: to probably get it yourself, right, So like kind of 281 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 3: stay away from someone who is dangerous until they're actually 282 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 3: not dangerous anymore. So at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I teach 283 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 3: women how to recognize what these dangerous behaviors are so. 284 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: That they can distance themselves. 285 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 3: And these strategies work whether women are married or or 286 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 3: even after divorce, because I experienced post separation abuse for 287 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 3: eight years after my divorce, where he continued these same 288 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 3: deceptive things to try and undermine my children and I, 289 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 3: And so divorce really isn't like it's not even something 290 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 3: I really talk about. Because I'm not encouraging women to 291 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 3: get divorced. 292 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 4: I'm also not telling them not to get divorced. 293 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 3: I'm saying, like, these are the strategies you're gonna use regardless, 294 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 3: and then God will lead you to do the thing 295 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 3: that he wants you to do specifically in your situation, 296 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 3: because every situation is so. 297 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 2: Different, absolutely absolutely, it's not just one size fits all 298 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 2: for what a person's going through in the nuance of 299 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 2: all those things. Either, Yeah, I'm wondering if I'm thinking 300 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 2: about some of the narratives that might be playing in 301 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 2: people's heads. I know, here's the thing. Forgiveness is important. 302 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 2: Forgiveness is something we are called to as Christians. 303 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: But when it. 304 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 2: Comes to ongoing abuse, how do we balance or how 305 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 2: have you helped women navigate balancing teachings the biblical teachings 306 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 2: of forgiveness with the reality of well, am I justifying 307 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 2: and allowing ongoing abuse? That that is? That is not healthy? 308 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 2: How do you help women navigate the that the biblical 309 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 2: balance of forgiveness and knowing when I need to take 310 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 2: actionable steps. Now there's there's consequences now to to what 311 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 2: this person has done. 312 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 3: Right. You know, when Christ talks about forgiveness in some contexts, 313 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 3: he's talking about it in the context of debt, and 314 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 3: in the Lord's Prayer he says, forgive us our debts, 315 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 3: as we forgive our debtors. And then the next line 316 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 3: is and deliver us from evil. So it's talking about 317 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 3: forgiving of debt, and then it doesn't say this so 318 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 3: that you can be delivered from evil. But I'm going 319 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 3: to add that in there. So let's talk about debt 320 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 3: for a minute. Debt is if someone owes you money 321 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 3: and you're trying to get money from them, you're going 322 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,479 Speaker 3: to be closer to them, right You're going to be like, Okay, 323 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 3: I need to text them and let them know, Hey, I. 324 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: Still haven't gotten the money. You still need to pay me, 325 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: still need to pay me. 326 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,880 Speaker 3: And so you're going to be contacting them to try 327 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 3: and get that money. 328 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 4: It's going to be on your mind. You're going to 329 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 4: be We're. 330 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: Going to through that. 331 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 3: If you forgive them of that debt, then it's facilitates 332 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 3: a way for you to not contact them anymore. It 333 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 3: facilitates a way for you to be like, you know what, 334 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 3: I'm just gonna move on and then I don't have 335 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 3: to worry about them owing me. I don't have to 336 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 3: think about them, I don't have to like bother them. 337 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 3: It doesn't have to bother me, and I can move 338 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 3: on with my life. So I think in so many ways, 339 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 3: men who are deceptive or women, they owe their spouse 340 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 3: a healthy marriage. They made vows with God, they made 341 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 3: vows with that person. 342 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: They owe her to be a provider, to be a 343 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: good to be a safe person. Yeah, they owe her 344 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: that right. 345 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,199 Speaker 3: And so if she forgives him of the debt that 346 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 3: he owes her, Okay, I forgive you of the debt 347 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 3: you owe me to be a good husband, to cherish 348 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 3: me to and you can be yourself. 349 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:55,640 Speaker 1: You know that actually would. 350 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 3: Help her move away from him rather than toward him, 351 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 3: and then she could be delivered from evil. In the 352 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 3: case that he is saying that he believes in Jesus, 353 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 3: but he's not acting like it, or he's not doing it. 354 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 3: So I think realizing that it at least in that context, 355 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 3: the context of debt, he really is talking about enabling 356 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 3: people to move away rather than reconcile. 357 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,679 Speaker 2: And there's a time and place for reconciliation. And I 358 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 2: think that reconciliation isn't just something that happens immediately. It can, 359 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 2: but I think especially in the case of abuse, where 360 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 2: there has been a lapse in character, and specifically godly 361 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 2: character walking. None of us is perfect, but pursuing, actively 362 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 2: pursuing and having this heart to be christ Like, if 363 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 2: they have taken steps to actually be repentant, not just 364 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 2: in word, but indeed like there's a genuine trend information 365 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 2: there that should come with repentance, like a genuine dedication 366 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 2: of i'm walking this direction, I'm no longer walking this direction, 367 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 2: I'm living a christ Like way. Then I think reconciliation 368 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 2: can be on the table, and reconciliation it looks different 369 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 2: for everyone in the sense of how close is this 370 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 2: person now going to be relationally to me? 371 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 1: Because there have been. 372 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,880 Speaker 2: Relationships, not abusive ones for me, but there have been 373 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 2: relationships in my life with different people where it's like, Okay, 374 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 2: there was a betrayal at some level with trust or 375 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 2: with boundaries or whatever that might be, and it's like, Okay, 376 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 2: the reconciliation might be restoring you back to being a 377 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 2: close person to me. But the reconciliation might just be 378 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 2: forgiving the debt but keeping you at a distance from me, 379 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 2: just knowing what has happened, knowing what is in the past. 380 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: And that is not to. 381 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 2: Reflect on you of well, you're not christ Like because 382 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 2: you haven't restored them back to this perfect place with you. 383 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 2: I'm not christ like. Jesus is Christ right, He can 384 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 2: reconcile them in that way, and we can navigate that 385 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 2: with the Lord. And I think God will convict us 386 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,199 Speaker 2: if we are keeping someone far away that shouldn't be 387 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 2: far away. I think God will convict you of that. Yeah, 388 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 2: in the same way, if you're keeping someone close that 389 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 2: shouldn't be that close to you. I pray that you 390 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 2: listen and you yield to God's guidance of. 391 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 1: That of if you need to establish. 392 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 2: That boundary, which can be very difficult. I know it 393 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 2: can be difficult to establish a boundary because we can 394 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 2: have this narrative in our head of well, is that 395 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 2: really loving? Is that really Christ? Like Jesus even had 396 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 2: his circle of people. He even had his circles of 397 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 2: who was closest to him and who wasn't in his 398 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 2: earthly ministry. Again, Jesus is God, so we have to 399 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 2: separate us from him in that way. But he models 400 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 2: for us even in his relationships of how he had 401 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 2: his three, he had his twelve, there were the seventy two, 402 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 2: there were the crowds, There were people that had proximity 403 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 2: to Jesus at certain points in time. And I think 404 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 2: that we can glean from that as well the humanity 405 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:11,360 Speaker 2: of Christ in that way. 406 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,360 Speaker 3: Well, and let's talk about that, because Judas was one 407 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 3: of his inner circle literally and he betrayed Jesus. 408 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: So if you're like, oh, if I would have been better, 409 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have been betrayed. 410 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 3: Like Jesus is God, he's perfect, literally, and he was 411 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 3: betrayed by someone who seemed like they were a good 412 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 3: person to everyone else. 413 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: My guess is he knew who he was. I'm not 414 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: exactly sure why he kept him in his inner circle. 415 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 3: But one of the things I think is interesting with 416 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 3: the Judas situation is that he Judas had been betraying 417 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 3: Christ for a long time. It wasn't just the night that. 418 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: He betrayed him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He had been working 419 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: with the religious leaders. 420 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 3: Before that to say, hey, okay, I'm going to deliver 421 00:23:57,960 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 3: him on this night, and this is what's going to happen. 422 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 3: And the night that Christ at the Last Supper when 423 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 3: he says, you know, one of you will betray me 424 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 3: and then he says to Judas, what you're going to do, 425 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 3: do quickly? 426 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 4: I think that that. 427 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 3: That is very interesting in terms of us following Christ's example. 428 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 3: He doesn't say to Judas, this is going to sound weird, 429 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 3: but he doesn't say, hey, Judas, you're going. 430 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: To betray me, so let me help you. Repent. 431 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 3: You know, he doesn't say, let's go to therapy together. 432 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 3: I know you're struggling from stuff from your childhood. He 433 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 3: doesn't say what can I do to help? Like, he 434 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 3: doesn't say any of that. He's just like, hey, this 435 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 3: is your character. Whatever you're going to do, do it. 436 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 3: And then he does not reconcile with Judas that I 437 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 3: know of in terms of his own personal relationship with him. 438 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 3: And then Judas ends up in despair and and all alone, 439 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 3: and then. 440 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: You know what happens to Judice. 441 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 3: But he doesn't try and at least in that moment, 442 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:15,719 Speaker 3: to change Judas. He watches from a distance sadly, and 443 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 3: part of that is because he can't because he's in prison. 444 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 3: But you know, like he does separate himself from people 445 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 3: who would do him harm. We see that in the 446 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 3: scriptures where he answers with an answer that's not really 447 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 3: an answer in order to you know, kind of like 448 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 3: give himself space. He teaches us not to cast our 449 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 3: pearls before swine. So it's I think a lot of 450 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 3: times we think, well, this is what the scriptures say 451 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 3: about marriage, which is true, but then we forget that 452 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 3: the scriptures tell us a lot of things, yes, about 453 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 3: how to with wickedness, right, how to interact with someone 454 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 3: who's going to harm you, how to interact with someone 455 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 3: who is a wolf, and clothing and those. 456 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 1: Apply to marriage. 457 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 3: If our husband is a wolf, yeah, right, if the 458 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 3: person were married to it has that deceptive character, those 459 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 3: same things would apply. It doesn't You don't just throw 460 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 3: that scripture out the window because it happens to be 461 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 3: your husband. 462 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: I agree. 463 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 2: I agree with that of just like not cherry picking 464 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 2: in the sense of we're taking one verse on one subject, 465 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 2: but it's like we need a way at all. What 466 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 2: does scriptures say about it all? And analyzing it through 467 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 2: that that lends in context and even to the context 468 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 2: of Judas. It's like I even think of Peter where 469 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 2: it's like Peter denied Jesus three times, but what was 470 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 2: the difference between Peter and Jesus being reconciled was that 471 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 2: Peter sought to be reconciled with Jesus like he did, 472 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 2: and there was redemption there with that, And so I 473 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 2: think that's another thing. Is right with that the other 474 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 2: person are they taking actionable steps to not only just 475 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 2: redeem themselves to you in the relationship, but further, like 476 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 2: taking a step back, are we redeeming ourselves to God 477 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 2: and seeking reconciliation to God as well? 478 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: Because that well matters. 479 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think intention matters as well. I don't 480 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 3: think Peter's intent in that was to hurt Christ. It 481 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 3: was to protect himself. He was scared people were out 482 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 3: and about that night hurting believers, right, And so he 483 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 3: wasn't trying I don't think to like literally deny that Christ. 484 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 3: He was just like if I'm just trying to protect myself, 485 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 3: And that is an understandable mistake. He was not purposefully 486 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 3: deceiving Christ. And in the case where it's systematic purposeful 487 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 3: deceit like he a husband is lying to his wife 488 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 3: about how he's using his time on almost a daily basis, 489 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 3: or he might be having an emotional affair with another 490 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 3: woman or a physical affair, or he's using pornograph habitually 491 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 3: for hours a day and he doesn't want her to know, 492 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 3: so he's lying to her and telling her that he. 493 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:05,640 Speaker 1: Has to work late. 494 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 3: Like those types of chronic habitual deceptions are on purpose, 495 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 3: and he knows it's wrong because if he didn't, he 496 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 3: wouldn't lie about it. He would say Oh, yeah, I 497 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 3: stayed late for work because I was looking at porn 498 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 3: for four hours, you know, and then she would. 499 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: Know who he was. 500 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, but because of that chronic deceit about what he's 501 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 3: doing with his time, then she. 502 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: Is kind of unaware of what he's doing. 503 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 3: So and it has to be purposeful because he could 504 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 3: just tell her the truth about what he was doing 505 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 3: and ask, you know, and let her know, and then 506 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 3: she could make a decision about what she wanted to do. 507 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I think, well, we only have so much 508 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 2: time left, so let me just end on this question 509 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 2: and throw it to you, because I'm sure that there's 510 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 2: a person, a woman, maybe even a man, and you 511 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 2: can apply this, you know, whoever's listening, you can apply 512 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 2: this to your situation. If someone is listening right now 513 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 2: and they feel just alone in this place, or they 514 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 2: feel unseen, or they're just trying to navigate it, like 515 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 2: what would you want them to know about their own 516 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 2: story and God's heart for them? Because I think that 517 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 2: that's an important thing to realize too, is like, Okay, 518 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 2: here's how God sees you in the middle of this 519 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 2: and how he wants to meet you in the middle 520 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 2: of this too. 521 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 3: Any person who is genuinely trying to figure out what 522 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 3: God wants them to do in a very difficult situation. 523 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 3: God loves, God loves and he loves you, and it's 524 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 3: not your fault. You haven't done anything wrong. There are 525 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 3: women who I want to say sin, let me just 526 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 3: put it that way, whose husbands love them, who their 527 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 3: husband's a cheat on them, you know. And so if 528 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 3: you're doing the best you can, the other person's behavior 529 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 3: isn't a reflection of God's love for you or of 530 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 3: your worth in God's eyes, And that God really does 531 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 3: want for you to have a peaceful life and to 532 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 3: feel emotionally safe in your own home. 533 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: That is what God wants for you. 534 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 3: And so if anything is stopping that, because Christ, the 535 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 3: fruits of the spirit are love, peace, joy, you know 536 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 3: those types of things. It's okay to change something in 537 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 3: order to have the fruits of the spirit. It's okay 538 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 3: to make decisions to bring us closer to God's love 539 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 3: because abuse is something and deceit is something that swats 540 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 3: God's love away from us. 541 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: Like, God has love to give us. 542 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 3: But if someone is standing between us and God's love 543 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 3: and being like no, you don't deserve it, but you don't, 544 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 3: you know, it's not it's not that we don't, it's 545 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 3: just that we have I would say, like wickedness in 546 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,959 Speaker 3: between us and God's love. And it's really hard to 547 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 3: see that when, especially when part of his deceit is 548 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 3: that it's our fault or that we've. 549 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 4: Done something wrong. So I just want people to know that. 550 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 3: Although suffering, although we're going to suffer as part of 551 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 3: this life, there is some types of suffering that we 552 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 3: can avoid through choices, and God wants us to avoid 553 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 3: it through our choices. 554 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 2: What are some like next steps that people can take 555 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 2: as they're navigating because maybe they're in their marriage right 556 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 2: now and they want to see it redeemed, reconciled, saved. 557 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 2: Maybe there are people who are are coming out of 558 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 2: relationships today and they're like, I don't know what to do, 559 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 2: or they're navigating making that decision if it is what 560 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 2: is safest and best for them and their their children, 561 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 2: their family. What can they do? 562 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: How can they get connected to you? 563 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 2: What resources can they get plugged into to just navigate 564 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 2: these these really hard nuances in a way that is 565 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 2: God honoring, because I know that's the heart behind what 566 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 2: the listeners want if they're taking those steps. 567 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. 568 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 3: So, as I was navigating post separation abuse, I was 569 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 3: praying to know, like I need to figure out a 570 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 3: way to be delivered from this, and women are praying 571 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 3: for that also in their marriages. It doesn't really matter 572 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 3: what situation that they're in. And you don't know what 573 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 3: ways God is going to work in your life, right. 574 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 3: You don't know if you're going to be delivered from 575 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 3: the situation by your husband being like, oh my word, 576 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 3: I've been terrible. 577 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: I'm going to stop doing what I was doing. That 578 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: would be a form of deliverance. 579 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 3: It could take any form, but knowing that what you're 580 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 3: really doing is asking to be delivered is one first step. 581 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: And then the second one is. 582 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 3: I created some strategies because of my own experience trying 583 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 3: to navigate it. I prayed to know how to be 584 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 3: delivered for years and study those scriptures. I actually went 585 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 3: to Jerusalem, I went to Egypt, walked around there to 586 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 3: study like how did the Israelites get delivered? I put 587 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 3: these strategies in my workshop and they are incredible and 588 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 3: they work no matter if you're married or post divorce 589 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 3: or any of that, because they're just like spiritual principles 590 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 3: that Christ gave us to start walking. And if you 591 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 3: think about the Israelites when they got the go ahead, 592 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 3: right like okay, you can go, they literally had to 593 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 3: pick up their stuff and start walking out of Egypt. 594 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 3: They weren't just immediately like pulled up into heaven and 595 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 3: flopped back into the Promised Land. They had quite a 596 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 3: journey ahead of them. And what I've seen is if 597 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 3: women start this journey of being delivered, that their husband 598 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 3: will either be like, oh, I want to be delivered 599 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 3: too from his own sin, and he'll start moving that way, 600 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 3: or he'll be like, you know what, no, I just 601 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,240 Speaker 3: want to stay here, and it will be very clear 602 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 3: to her what to do, what God wants, what God 603 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 3: wants her to do yes, And so those workshop strategies 604 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 3: have been really helpful. My workshop is called Clarity after Betrayal, 605 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 3: So if you go to btr dot org. 606 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: Slash Clarity you can find it. 607 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 3: It's extremely inexpensive, and it takes women through these principles 608 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 3: step by step that she can implement, and it also 609 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 3: has some like workbooks exercises where she can process what 610 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 3: she's feeling in regard to her faith and stuff like that. Now, 611 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 3: these aren't necessarily in like I don't talk about scripture 612 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 3: in that workshop because of the spiritual abuse that some 613 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 3: women have experienced. 614 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: But there is like an appendix at the back. 615 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 3: Where I shared where I got those, like the strategies 616 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 3: from in the scriptures which women have found to be 617 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 3: really helpful. But that way, it's there if she wants it. 618 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 3: But if she's like, you know what, like scriptures kind 619 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 3: of like uh, stressing me out right now, then she 620 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,359 Speaker 3: can just go through the strategies. I was telling my friend, like, 621 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 3: my goal is to get the information that Christ. 622 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:13,799 Speaker 1: Wanted them to know. 623 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 3: And it's okay with me if I mean, I will 624 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 3: say Christ gave me this information. But if spiritual abuse 625 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,359 Speaker 3: has been a factor in her marriage and it makes 626 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 3: her a little nervous, at least this can still get 627 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 3: her the information without her being too triggered, so the 628 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 3: Lord can still bless her. 629 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:33,879 Speaker 4: So that's my goal. 630 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 2: Awesome, I'll link that down below for you all a 631 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 2: btr dot org. You all can check out all of 632 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 2: her stuff. I mean, she has a podcast and what 633 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 2: is the name of your podcast? Where can people listen 634 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 2: to that? 635 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 3: It's called Betrayal Trauma Recovery. We're on Spotify, Apple Podcasts. 636 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: You can go to BTR dot org slash podcast and 637 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 1: get there. 638 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 3: We also have an online group that runs multiple times 639 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,399 Speaker 3: a day, every single day, and that's where women can 640 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,319 Speaker 3: pop in and just ask questions, say this is what 641 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,359 Speaker 3: happened today. You don't have to make an appointment, and 642 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 3: it's only women, and my. 643 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: Coaches are there. 644 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 3: All of my coaches are Christian, so if you want 645 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 3: to like get feedback from a Christian point of view 646 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 3: at least here, you just ask and they're happy to 647 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 3: do that. We don't necessarily lead with that, just in 648 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 3: case someone doesn't want to, but all of them are Christians, 649 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 3: so you'll be safe, Like you can bring up anything 650 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 3: related to your faith and they can help you. Some 651 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 3: of my coaches like they were like do I am I? 652 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,319 Speaker 1: Should I be a betrayal Trauma Recovery coach or. 653 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,920 Speaker 3: Should I go to theology school? You know, they were 654 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 3: like this is so And the reason they were wondering 655 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 3: is because they all grappled with these very difficult questions 656 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 3: when it came to betrayal. Because everyone on our team 657 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 3: has been through it themselves. 658 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad that there are those resources out there 659 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 2: and that these women can have those kinds of conversations 660 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 2: with your team. And so if that is you today, 661 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 2: if you're listening, check it out, take those next steps. 662 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 2: I'm not you know, I'm not having ann On here. 663 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 2: And we even talked about this of just like we're 664 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,840 Speaker 2: not trying to be like divorce your husband because he 665 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 2: did something that he didn't like. There are there is 666 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 2: a way to discern next steps and what is God 667 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 2: honoring and what is safe and that is something that 668 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 2: you need to navigate with her trusted team through consulting, scripture, 669 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 2: maybe even your church. It is something that is hefty 670 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 2: and weighty. As a as a child of divorce, I 671 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 2: understand what it looks like to see my parents walk 672 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 2: through that the abuse side of things. So I really 673 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 2: do have a heart for women who are navigating the 674 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 2: nuances of that, especially when it comes to navigating with faith. 675 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 2: I'm not the expert, but my friend Anne is, and 676 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,759 Speaker 2: so I think it's beautiful that she has those resources 677 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 2: available to you today. So praying that whatever God's will 678 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 2: is in redeeming you, in reconciling whatever needs to be reconciled, 679 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 2: in figuring out bringing you out of situations that are 680 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 2: unhealthy and unsafe, that he would just grant you his piece, 681 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 2: his comfort and clarity within how. 682 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 4: To navigate that. 683 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,920 Speaker 2: But and thank you for taking the time to be 684 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 2: here today, for being on the podcast. I'll have everything 685 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 2: linkedwin below so they can all check that out. And 686 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 2: I pray that this blessed you whoever is listening and 687 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 2: watching today. But until next time, I love y'all and 688 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 2: I'll see you here next week on another episode of 689 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 2: the bottom Beloved podcast. 690 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: Bye. 691 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 2: For more life giving, faith based podcast just like this one. 692 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,319 Speaker 2: Check out lifeaudio dot com, a proud partner of the 693 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 2: Beloved Podcast.