1 00:00:02,710 --> 00:00:03,690 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 2: Hello, friends. I'm Alan Fadling, and you're listening to the 3 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:12,219 Speaker 2: Unhurried Living Podcast, where we inspire you to rest deeper, 4 00:00:12,660 --> 00:00:16,620 Speaker 2: live fuller, and lead better. You know, we often measure 5 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 2: spiritual growth by how much we know or how much 6 00:00:19,700 --> 00:00:23,770 Speaker 2: we do, but maybe the deeper question is this, who 7 00:00:23,980 --> 00:00:27,210 Speaker 2: are we becoming? And what if that question isn't just 8 00:00:27,230 --> 00:00:32,220 Speaker 2: for individuals, but for entire communities of faith? Today, my 9 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 2: friend and colleague Matt Fogel joins me for a conversation 10 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 2: with Keith Kiesler about his new book, Kingdom Apprenticeship, Dallas 11 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:47,530 Speaker 2: Willard's Formational Theology and Missional Vision. Together, we'll explore what 12 00:00:47,570 --> 00:00:51,130 Speaker 2: it means to become apprentices of Jesus and how that 13 00:00:51,270 --> 00:00:55,110 Speaker 2: kind of formation shapes not only our own lives, but 14 00:00:55,150 --> 00:00:58,970 Speaker 2: the shared life and witness of the church. But first, 15 00:00:59,430 --> 00:01:11,750 Speaker 2: here's a word from today's sponsor. If you're listening to 16 00:01:11,790 --> 00:01:14,790 Speaker 2: the podcast, I'd love for you to follow or subscribe. 17 00:01:15,150 --> 00:01:18,270 Speaker 2: And if you're watching on YouTube, please consider subscribing there 18 00:01:18,330 --> 00:01:21,610 Speaker 2: as well. It's free, it helps you stay connected with us, 19 00:01:22,150 --> 00:01:26,060 Speaker 2: and it also helps more people discover the Unhurried Living podcast. 20 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 2: My guest today, Keith Kiesler, serves as Associate Professor of 21 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 2: Spiritual Theology at Friends University, where he also directs the 22 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,890 Speaker 2: MA in Christian Spiritual Formation and Leadership. He earned his 23 00:01:39,950 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 2: doctorate in theology from the Vrije Universiteit in Amsterdam, and 24 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 2: his work explores the rich intersection of spiritual formation, discipleship, 25 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 2: and the mission of the Church. Joining me for today's 26 00:01:53,940 --> 00:01:58,260 Speaker 2: conversation is my friend and colleague, Matt Fogel. Together, we 27 00:01:58,300 --> 00:02:05,830 Speaker 2: explore Keith's outstanding new IVP academic book, Kingdom Apprenticeship, Dallas 28 00:02:05,910 --> 00:02:11,470 Speaker 2: Willard's Formational Theology, and missional vision. One quick note before 29 00:02:11,510 --> 00:02:15,450 Speaker 2: we begin. On the day we recorded this conversation, Matt 30 00:02:15,550 --> 00:02:18,989 Speaker 2: Fogel was in the middle of some severe storm conditions 31 00:02:19,090 --> 00:02:22,730 Speaker 2: in central Illinois that knocked out his power and affected 32 00:02:22,810 --> 00:02:25,810 Speaker 2: both his audio and video. So if you're watching on 33 00:02:25,870 --> 00:02:29,010 Speaker 2: YouTube and you're wondering why Matt looks like he's sitting 34 00:02:29,110 --> 00:02:33,070 Speaker 2: beside a campfire, now you know. We're grateful he was 35 00:02:33,150 --> 00:02:35,430 Speaker 2: able to stay with us and be part of the conversation. 36 00:02:36,250 --> 00:02:38,890 Speaker 2: And I hope you'll enjoy this conversation as much as 37 00:02:38,970 --> 00:02:42,630 Speaker 2: we did. Keith, it is such a treat to be 38 00:02:42,669 --> 00:02:45,710 Speaker 2: able to have this time together. And maybe before we 39 00:02:45,750 --> 00:02:48,370 Speaker 2: dive into the ideas in your book, we'd love to 40 00:02:48,410 --> 00:02:50,550 Speaker 2: begin with getting to know you a little. I know 41 00:02:50,570 --> 00:02:53,620 Speaker 2: that over the years, you've devoted yourself to thinking very 42 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 2: deeply about spiritual formation and discipleship and mission of the church. 43 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,500 Speaker 2: But before that was your vocation, it was your journey. 44 00:03:02,540 --> 00:03:05,570 Speaker 2: And so as you look back over that journey, What 45 00:03:05,850 --> 00:03:08,690 Speaker 2: sense of calling has anchored you along the way? 46 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,579 Speaker 3: Well, first off, great to be here with you, brothers. 47 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:15,500 Speaker 3: Been looking forward to this conversation. 48 00:03:16,380 --> 00:03:16,820 Speaker 2: Us too. 49 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:18,900 Speaker 4: You know, in terms of a. 50 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:23,500 Speaker 3: Calling that has guided me, I mean, this would go 51 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 3: all the way back to my high school days. It 52 00:03:26,860 --> 00:03:30,540 Speaker 3: was really when I was in high school that Jesus 53 00:03:30,660 --> 00:03:37,870 Speaker 3: became my hero. And began following him and experiencing the 54 00:03:39,110 --> 00:03:41,740 Speaker 3: transforming power of love. I mean, that's how I would 55 00:03:41,780 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 3: put it. Just the transforming power of relationship with him. And, 56 00:03:50,380 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 3: and I wanted other people to experience him in that way. 57 00:03:53,180 --> 00:03:56,140 Speaker 3: I at least wanted them to, to know that this 58 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:01,340 Speaker 3: was available and that, and really it was less of 59 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,660 Speaker 3: a sense of calling that I wanted to go into 60 00:04:04,260 --> 00:04:07,940 Speaker 3: ministry or that I wanted to study and teach theology 61 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:09,780 Speaker 3: or that I wanted to be a pastor because I, 62 00:04:10,740 --> 00:04:13,660 Speaker 3: I became a pastor. And then it was, um, after 63 00:04:13,710 --> 00:04:17,670 Speaker 3: the pastorate that I became a professor of theology, which 64 00:04:18,210 --> 00:04:19,910 Speaker 3: did not feel like a different vocation. 65 00:04:19,950 --> 00:04:21,849 Speaker 4: It felt like a different job, but it felt like 66 00:04:21,910 --> 00:04:22,890 Speaker 4: the same vocation. 67 00:04:22,910 --> 00:04:28,330 Speaker 3: Um, So it was less of behind all that was 68 00:04:28,470 --> 00:04:32,349 Speaker 3: less of a sense of calling than simply realizing that 69 00:04:32,690 --> 00:04:35,170 Speaker 3: this was the thing that I was most passionate about. 70 00:04:36,690 --> 00:04:37,830 Speaker 4: And I would say that that is. 71 00:04:38,690 --> 00:04:40,469 Speaker 3: And so I just chased after that. 72 00:04:40,490 --> 00:04:41,290 Speaker 4: I just pursued it. 73 00:04:41,290 --> 00:04:43,770 Speaker 3: I just leaned in and said, if this is what 74 00:04:43,810 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 3: I get actually paid to do, that's even bonus. You know, 75 00:04:49,420 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 3: this is what I want to give my life to. 76 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:56,669 Speaker 3: And lots has changed over the decades. clearly obviously since 77 00:04:57,150 --> 00:04:58,950 Speaker 3: I was a little high school or back in the day, 78 00:04:59,050 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 3: but that passion has remained. And I'm a, I think 79 00:05:07,380 --> 00:05:15,380 Speaker 3: I'm a teacher of theology for the same reason that 80 00:05:15,500 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 3: I'm a follower of Jesus, which is, I don't want 81 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 3: to live a lame life. And I believe that Jesus is, 82 00:05:23,220 --> 00:05:26,980 Speaker 3: shows us the deepest and rawest way to live. When 83 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 3: he says in John 10, 10, that I've come to 84 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 3: give you life and give it abundantly, I actually believe him. 85 00:05:32,550 --> 00:05:36,350 Speaker 3: I actually believe that he's giving us insight into the 86 00:05:36,470 --> 00:05:39,690 Speaker 3: deepest and rawest way to live. And so as Henry 87 00:05:39,710 --> 00:05:43,810 Speaker 3: David Thoreau wrote in his book, Walden, I want to 88 00:05:43,910 --> 00:05:47,110 Speaker 3: suck the marrow out of life. I would say the 89 00:05:47,170 --> 00:05:51,780 Speaker 3: same thing for why I'm an apprentice of Jesus and 90 00:05:51,900 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 3: why I've devoted my life to this. 91 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 4: That's beautiful. 92 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 2: It makes me think, it makes me think, you know, 93 00:05:58,940 --> 00:06:02,659 Speaker 2: your trajectory from sort of being in the church to 94 00:06:02,700 --> 00:06:05,460 Speaker 2: being in the academy is not at all unlike Dallas's 95 00:06:06,779 --> 00:06:10,190 Speaker 2: journey that there was always the pastor in him too. 96 00:06:11,370 --> 00:06:14,070 Speaker 4: He always, exactly. You're right on. 97 00:06:14,150 --> 00:06:17,750 Speaker 3: He, Even towards the end of his life, when reflecting 98 00:06:17,890 --> 00:06:20,810 Speaker 3: on his role, I mean, he was a professor of 99 00:06:20,860 --> 00:06:24,340 Speaker 3: philosophy at University of Southern Cal for 47 years. 100 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:25,220 Speaker 1: Wow. 101 00:06:25,300 --> 00:06:28,500 Speaker 4: But before that, he was pastoring. 102 00:06:29,180 --> 00:06:31,539 Speaker 3: And towards the end of his life, upon reflecting on 103 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 3: sort of his vocational journey, he thought that they were 104 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,559 Speaker 3: two peas in the same pod. I mean, he felt 105 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 3: that his work at the university was an expression of 106 00:06:44,830 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 3: his vocation as a minister of the word, which is, 107 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,700 Speaker 3: which is really fun to kind of dive into that 108 00:06:52,779 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 3: and explore that and why that was. But this, this 109 00:06:57,500 --> 00:06:59,900 Speaker 3: made a deep impression on me when I was being 110 00:07:00,380 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 3: recruited to friends university by our mutual friend, Jim, Jim Smith, 111 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:10,030 Speaker 3: James Bryan Smith. He shared with me, this was circa 2016. 112 00:07:10,030 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 3: We had met, I was pastoring a church in Miami and, 113 00:07:13,070 --> 00:07:17,210 Speaker 3: And Jim invited me to come on faculty here and 114 00:07:17,230 --> 00:07:22,770 Speaker 3: to build a master's program in spiritual formation and leadership. 115 00:07:24,010 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 3: And I was kind of torn. I was loving what 116 00:07:26,300 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 3: I was doing. I was doing ministry with my best 117 00:07:28,220 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 3: friends in Miami. 118 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,020 Speaker 4: We had church planted. We were pastoring. 119 00:07:33,380 --> 00:07:37,740 Speaker 3: And Jim shared with me that Dallas... as a young 120 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,750 Speaker 3: man after completing his PhD at the University of Wisconsin 121 00:07:41,850 --> 00:07:44,690 Speaker 3: in philosophy and was asked to teach as an adjunct 122 00:07:44,710 --> 00:07:48,910 Speaker 3: some courses there in the philosophy department while pastoring was 123 00:07:48,970 --> 00:07:51,970 Speaker 3: faced with this decision of does he become a full-time 124 00:07:52,010 --> 00:07:55,270 Speaker 3: prof or does he remain a pastor? And he felt 125 00:07:55,330 --> 00:07:58,980 Speaker 3: like God told him, and maybe you know this story, Alan. 126 00:07:59,020 --> 00:07:59,940 Speaker 3: I don't know, Matt, if you. 127 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:03,340 Speaker 4: Do as well, but he felt like God told. 128 00:08:03,140 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 3: Him that if you stay in the church, the universities 129 00:08:05,980 --> 00:08:07,260 Speaker 3: will be closed to you. 130 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,660 Speaker 4: But if you go to the university, the churches will 131 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:11,470 Speaker 4: be open to you. 132 00:08:12,060 --> 00:08:16,830 Speaker 3: So he ultimately chose to be a full-time prof at 133 00:08:16,850 --> 00:08:20,510 Speaker 3: a university so that he could keep a foot in 134 00:08:20,570 --> 00:08:23,970 Speaker 3: both worlds, so he could remain relevant in both spaces. 135 00:08:24,090 --> 00:08:28,230 Speaker 3: And that made a deep impression on me. Yeah, his 136 00:08:28,290 --> 00:08:28,770 Speaker 3: own story. 137 00:08:29,590 --> 00:08:33,650 Speaker 2: After the break, we'll continue our conversation with Keith Kiesler. 138 00:08:35,850 --> 00:08:36,210 Speaker 4: Absolutely. 139 00:08:36,330 --> 00:08:37,110 Speaker 1: It's so good. 140 00:08:37,350 --> 00:08:37,710 Speaker 2: Yeah. 141 00:08:38,210 --> 00:08:40,469 Speaker 1: I think one of the things I was captivated by 142 00:08:41,309 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: in your book, which, by the way, it's thick, Keith. 143 00:08:48,870 --> 00:08:50,380 Speaker 4: I don't think I've read. 144 00:08:50,510 --> 00:08:54,729 Speaker 1: A formation book with so many footnotes that are actually 145 00:08:54,809 --> 00:08:58,870 Speaker 1: helpful when you pay attention to the footnotes. They add 146 00:08:58,910 --> 00:09:04,670 Speaker 1: in there for fluff. There's meat on that. It's so good. 147 00:09:05,890 --> 00:09:09,750 Speaker 1: I think I was fascinated because barely do you read 148 00:09:09,790 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: a formation book that really rides that narrow line of 149 00:09:15,790 --> 00:09:20,910 Speaker 1: spiritual formation, leadership, and missiology. Like I can't think of 150 00:09:20,929 --> 00:09:24,470 Speaker 1: a lot of formation books that include Wisdom by Dallas 151 00:09:24,510 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: Willard and Leslie Newbigin, both. And so I'm curious, as 152 00:09:30,700 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: you've studied over the last decade plus and dove deep 153 00:09:33,940 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: into your PhD, how has your vision of spiritual formation shifted? 154 00:09:39,190 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: over all those years, how did it, did it kind 155 00:09:41,150 --> 00:09:44,780 Speaker 1: of accidentally bump into missiology and just being like formation 156 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,940 Speaker 1: is meant to lead to mission or just tell us 157 00:09:48,460 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: the journey of how you used to define it and 158 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: now how it's maybe a little more robust. 159 00:09:53,179 --> 00:09:54,530 Speaker 4: Oh man. Great question. 160 00:09:56,809 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 3: So did I, as to, was I just studying, formation 161 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:02,980 Speaker 3: and then I bumped into the missional piece? 162 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 4: Actually, it's it's quite a different story than that. 163 00:10:06,220 --> 00:10:11,290 Speaker 3: It it was that the two streams of faith that 164 00:10:11,350 --> 00:10:17,110 Speaker 3: have most shaped, you know, my own my own faith 165 00:10:17,470 --> 00:10:21,429 Speaker 3: is a spiritual formation movement. and the missional church movement. 166 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,359 Speaker 3: And what's really interesting is that they both kind of, uh, 167 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:32,059 Speaker 3: blossomed at the same time. Um, a fun little tidbit 168 00:10:32,220 --> 00:10:37,229 Speaker 3: is that Dallas is his bestselling book, or at least 169 00:10:37,270 --> 00:10:40,290 Speaker 3: the one that has been looked upon as his masterwork 170 00:10:40,350 --> 00:10:44,110 Speaker 3: divine conspiracy was published in 1998, which was the same 171 00:10:44,170 --> 00:10:48,210 Speaker 3: year that the book missional church, uh, edited by Daryl Guder, 172 00:10:48,929 --> 00:10:54,309 Speaker 3: who is a mentor, an academic mentor of mine, same 173 00:10:54,350 --> 00:10:56,590 Speaker 3: year that that was published. Just a fun little side 174 00:10:56,650 --> 00:11:00,790 Speaker 3: note that shows that they were both kind of flourishing. 175 00:11:02,030 --> 00:11:05,730 Speaker 3: These discourses were both flourishing at the same time. And 176 00:11:06,130 --> 00:11:09,550 Speaker 3: I was drawing from both of them. One focused on 177 00:11:11,059 --> 00:11:14,950 Speaker 3: contemplative practices that put us in contact with God and 178 00:11:14,990 --> 00:11:18,770 Speaker 3: grow our relationship with him. And the other focused on 179 00:11:18,970 --> 00:11:24,189 Speaker 3: missional living and how we extend God's invitation and love 180 00:11:24,850 --> 00:11:26,050 Speaker 3: into the world to others. 181 00:11:26,550 --> 00:11:28,290 Speaker 4: But I was amazed at. 182 00:11:28,270 --> 00:11:32,450 Speaker 3: How little overlap and cross pollination there was between these 183 00:11:32,530 --> 00:11:36,770 Speaker 3: two camps. And to be honest, and so this was 184 00:11:36,929 --> 00:11:39,630 Speaker 3: my own kind of faith formation and, But then it 185 00:11:39,690 --> 00:11:42,350 Speaker 3: was also true when I was pastoring is I was 186 00:11:42,450 --> 00:11:48,110 Speaker 3: drawing from in trying to help lead those within my 187 00:11:48,170 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 3: congregation into following Christ and joining in his work in 188 00:11:54,150 --> 00:11:56,579 Speaker 3: the world. I was drawing from these two different streams, 189 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,179 Speaker 3: but it was a pebble in my shoe that kept 190 00:12:00,260 --> 00:12:03,780 Speaker 3: gnawing at me that there was no bridge between them. Yeah. 191 00:12:04,700 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 4: And I had. 192 00:12:08,020 --> 00:12:11,900 Speaker 3: An intuitive sense that Dallas, the more, you know, Dallas 193 00:12:11,940 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 3: was a real companion in the pastorate. Um, he once 194 00:12:15,820 --> 00:12:18,940 Speaker 3: said that every church needs to ask itself two questions. 195 00:12:20,110 --> 00:12:24,090 Speaker 3: Number one, what's our plan for making disciples? And number two, 196 00:12:24,170 --> 00:12:27,870 Speaker 3: how's that going? And so we were always coming back 197 00:12:27,910 --> 00:12:31,069 Speaker 3: to those two questions in the pastorate and he became 198 00:12:31,110 --> 00:12:33,750 Speaker 3: a real companion for me in, in that he was 199 00:12:34,250 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 3: mentoring me from afar and actually, um, you know, from 200 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,540 Speaker 3: a different reality, we might say, because he had already passed, 201 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,900 Speaker 3: but he was still mentoring in that. And the more 202 00:12:46,970 --> 00:12:48,570 Speaker 3: I got into his work and the more I was 203 00:12:48,620 --> 00:12:52,229 Speaker 3: reading it, the more I intuited that he somehow bridged 204 00:12:52,309 --> 00:12:56,590 Speaker 3: these two divides. And, you know, I'm glad you brought 205 00:12:56,650 --> 00:12:59,890 Speaker 3: up Newbegin there, because Newbegin was another that I thought, 206 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 3: somehow might bridge these two as well. And that's what 207 00:13:04,570 --> 00:13:07,750 Speaker 3: eventually led into this deeper study. You know, maybe we 208 00:13:07,770 --> 00:13:11,510 Speaker 3: can circle back at some point. My dissertation originally was 209 00:13:11,570 --> 00:13:15,270 Speaker 3: going to be, PhD dissertation was going to be bringing 210 00:13:15,330 --> 00:13:21,530 Speaker 3: Willard and Newbegin into conversation. So yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe 211 00:13:21,590 --> 00:13:23,929 Speaker 3: one day I'll still, maybe one day I'll still get 212 00:13:23,950 --> 00:13:27,730 Speaker 3: to that. But, um, I ended up focusing on Dallas 213 00:13:27,750 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 3: because there was so little secondary scholarship on his thought 214 00:13:32,750 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 3: that I realized in order for that to even be 215 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 3: done in the future, this first has done. And this 216 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 3: is the greater need right now is to make his, 217 00:13:41,420 --> 00:13:46,690 Speaker 3: his thought understandable and approachable to untangle this and kind 218 00:13:46,710 --> 00:13:50,370 Speaker 3: of give a roadmap, a commentary on his theology of 219 00:13:50,429 --> 00:13:54,979 Speaker 3: spiritual formation. Now, It's a lot of preamble to your 220 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 3: question of how my view of formation has changed. And 221 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:01,380 Speaker 3: feel free to cut me off anytime if you want 222 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:07,090 Speaker 3: to interject things. But spiritual formation, first and foremost, is 223 00:14:07,110 --> 00:14:10,170 Speaker 3: not a Christian thing. It's just a human thing. You know, 224 00:14:10,290 --> 00:14:16,980 Speaker 3: spiritual formation, name the phenomenon, the reality that the core 225 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 3: of human persons is always taking shape. So Dallas like 226 00:14:21,270 --> 00:14:24,140 Speaker 3: to say that spiritual formation is like education. Everybody gets 227 00:14:24,180 --> 00:14:27,260 Speaker 3: an education. Um, the question is whether it's a good 228 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 3: one or a bad one. And so the core of 229 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:34,180 Speaker 3: a person, what we would say is the spirit, um, 230 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:39,060 Speaker 3: which is closely connected to one's will, you know, uh, 231 00:14:39,180 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 3: it's what makes you, you it's what is most unique 232 00:14:44,620 --> 00:14:48,930 Speaker 3: about you is the say. So, uh, that God has 233 00:14:49,010 --> 00:14:52,109 Speaker 3: given you in, in the world. It might just be 234 00:14:52,130 --> 00:14:55,940 Speaker 3: a small say, so a little slice of that. Um, 235 00:14:56,100 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 3: but that is the, that is one's spirit and that 236 00:15:00,180 --> 00:15:02,940 Speaker 3: is being shaped and formed in a certain direction. And 237 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,660 Speaker 3: Christian spiritual formation is one direction that this might go. 238 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 3: It is that the core of a person is being 239 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 3: shaped in the image of, of Christ, uh, that our character, uh, 240 00:15:17,190 --> 00:15:19,210 Speaker 3: You know, that's a key word there when we're talking 241 00:15:19,230 --> 00:15:21,710 Speaker 3: about the core of a person or the spirit of 242 00:15:21,750 --> 00:15:22,090 Speaker 3: a person. 243 00:15:22,290 --> 00:15:28,850 Speaker 4: What is character? Yeah. Character is habituated will. So it's 244 00:15:28,910 --> 00:15:29,610 Speaker 4: the core of. 245 00:15:29,530 --> 00:15:35,870 Speaker 3: A person that becomes solidified over time by the decisions 246 00:15:35,910 --> 00:15:38,489 Speaker 3: we make and the habits we form. The decisions we 247 00:15:38,570 --> 00:15:42,270 Speaker 3: make have a way of making us in the end. 248 00:15:43,270 --> 00:15:47,590 Speaker 3: And the habits we form will inevitably form us as well. 249 00:15:47,930 --> 00:15:52,010 Speaker 3: And the result is one's character. So Christian spiritual formation 250 00:15:52,610 --> 00:15:57,770 Speaker 3: is the process of one's inner core being shaped in 251 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:03,420 Speaker 3: the likeness of Christ, resembles Christ's own character for the 252 00:16:03,500 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 3: sake of others and for the sake of the world. 253 00:16:08,660 --> 00:16:09,260 Speaker 4: Thanks, brother. 254 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,820 Speaker 2: It's beautiful. I love that. You know, one of the 255 00:16:14,540 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 2: things I always loved about Dallas is he had a 256 00:16:16,620 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 2: way of taking something that you thought was familiar and 257 00:16:20,500 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 2: making you think about it very differently than you had 258 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:24,020 Speaker 2: up to that minute. 259 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:25,620 Speaker 4: That's right. 260 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 2: And one of those, I think one of those themes, 261 00:16:28,420 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 2: and you address it, is the theme of grace, his 262 00:16:31,300 --> 00:16:37,230 Speaker 2: understanding of grace, not as just pardon, not just as forgiveness, 263 00:16:37,370 --> 00:16:40,500 Speaker 2: not making up the difference of my shortcomings, but something 264 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:45,730 Speaker 2: more real, more robust, more overarching. I wonder if you 265 00:16:45,770 --> 00:16:49,690 Speaker 2: can share a little bit about your experience of Dallas 266 00:16:49,730 --> 00:16:52,310 Speaker 2: Willard on grace that you kind of talk about in 267 00:16:52,370 --> 00:16:52,670 Speaker 2: the book. 268 00:16:53,670 --> 00:16:55,050 Speaker 4: Oh, wonderful question, Alan. 269 00:16:55,090 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a chapter I have just titled The Metaphysics 270 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 3: of Grace. And growing up, I was I was taught 271 00:17:05,140 --> 00:17:08,449 Speaker 3: in Sunday school and in sermons and in other Christian 272 00:17:08,490 --> 00:17:13,930 Speaker 3: teachings that grace is forgiveness and all different ways of 273 00:17:13,990 --> 00:17:16,250 Speaker 3: getting at this, but more or less that it is 274 00:17:16,270 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 3: a great grace partying us. 275 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,460 Speaker 4: And to that, I would say, amen. 276 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 277 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 4: Amen. 278 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 3: But, but that is one tree within the forest of 279 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,110 Speaker 3: God's grace, grace being forgiveness. 280 00:17:31,810 --> 00:17:34,910 Speaker 4: God's activity in our lives. That's how Dallas understands. 281 00:17:36,350 --> 00:17:41,170 Speaker 3: And he often would encourage his listeners to, on their own, 282 00:17:41,290 --> 00:17:44,610 Speaker 3: pull out the Bible and, you know, with the concordance 283 00:17:44,710 --> 00:17:50,670 Speaker 3: at the end, to find all these instances of grace 284 00:17:51,050 --> 00:17:55,210 Speaker 3: and to flick there and to get a sense of 285 00:17:56,310 --> 00:17:58,609 Speaker 3: what is this reality? I mean, that was just a 286 00:17:58,670 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 3: great little motive study he had for It sounds like 287 00:18:03,060 --> 00:18:11,860 Speaker 3: a simple Sunday school practice, but there's this whole method 288 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 3: of phenomenology, which was his expertise and philosophy behind this 289 00:18:17,340 --> 00:18:21,290 Speaker 3: little practice, this mode of thinking. And, you know, I 290 00:18:21,330 --> 00:18:26,150 Speaker 3: do that with my students, is we will go through passages. 291 00:18:27,430 --> 00:18:29,690 Speaker 4: That use this word grace. 292 00:18:32,430 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 3: I mean, you could look at Jesus' own life, a 293 00:18:35,670 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 3: passage like in Luke 2, where it talks about that Jesus, 294 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 3: that this child was growing, that he was becoming stronger, 295 00:18:44,180 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 3: and that he was filled with wisdom and the grace 296 00:18:47,420 --> 00:18:51,260 Speaker 3: of God. It says that the grace of God was 297 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:59,050 Speaker 3: on Jesus. If forgiveness was on him, Paul says in 298 00:18:59,090 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 3: Romans that we all have different gifts according to the 299 00:19:02,660 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 3: grace given to each one of us. Well, the word 300 00:19:06,980 --> 00:19:13,449 Speaker 3: forgiveness doesn't fit there. You've got Peter. He's writing to 301 00:19:13,470 --> 00:19:17,610 Speaker 3: the fellowships saying that, you know, that you might grow 302 00:19:17,850 --> 00:19:20,470 Speaker 3: in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior, 303 00:19:20,490 --> 00:19:21,109 Speaker 3: Jesus Christ. 304 00:19:21,190 --> 00:19:23,510 Speaker 4: What are you going to grow in forgiveness of? 305 00:19:24,580 --> 00:19:24,710 Speaker 3: Yeah. 306 00:19:24,930 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 4: So if you go back through these. 307 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,750 Speaker 3: Passages and more, You see that it's a bit nonsensical 308 00:19:31,950 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 3: if you're using forgiveness. But if you use the word empowerment, 309 00:19:36,660 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 3: that you might grow in the empowerment and knowledge of 310 00:19:42,380 --> 00:19:46,030 Speaker 3: our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That Jesus as a 311 00:19:46,109 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 3: child was filled with wisdom. and the empowerment of God 312 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,139 Speaker 3: was upon his life. You begin to see that grace 313 00:19:57,220 --> 00:20:00,580 Speaker 3: as God's activity in our lives is such a fuller, 314 00:20:00,619 --> 00:20:05,640 Speaker 3: more robust understanding of this. And yes, forgiveness is one expression, 315 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:06,780 Speaker 3: one tree. 316 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,109 Speaker 4: Within this larger force of God's Grace. And I. 317 00:20:12,490 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 3: Love where Dallas talks about this means that saints need 318 00:20:17,740 --> 00:20:18,980 Speaker 3: more grace than sinners. 319 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:20,940 Speaker 4: You know, sinners need to be forgiven for their sins. 320 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:21,500 Speaker 4: They sure do. 321 00:20:22,020 --> 00:20:26,020 Speaker 3: But saints need grace for holy living, every aspect of 322 00:20:26,060 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 3: their lives. They need God's spirit flowing in them and 323 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,380 Speaker 3: through them for holy living. And so he has this 324 00:20:33,619 --> 00:20:39,820 Speaker 3: image of a 747. You know, the saint uses grace. race, 325 00:20:40,020 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 3: like a 747 jet sucks up fuel as it's taking 326 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 3: off the runway. Um, so yeah, may we grow in 327 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,690 Speaker 3: the empowerment and knowledge of Christ. 328 00:20:54,750 --> 00:20:57,950 Speaker 1: Keith, I used that illustration last night. I was preaching 329 00:20:57,990 --> 00:20:59,889 Speaker 1: to a bunch of high school kids. I didn't use 330 00:20:59,910 --> 00:21:03,870 Speaker 1: the 747. I used a Hummer, but yeah. 331 00:21:03,890 --> 00:21:06,129 Speaker 4: Those, those Hummers, they, they suck it up, baby. 332 00:21:06,490 --> 00:21:09,890 Speaker 1: They suck that gas, but, uh, One of the things 333 00:21:09,950 --> 00:21:11,770 Speaker 1: I do want to say, side note on the book, 334 00:21:12,060 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: is that one of the more helpful things in reading 335 00:21:15,740 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: your work was all the terms that you go into depth. 336 00:21:19,380 --> 00:21:23,660 Speaker 1: Grace is one of them. Spirit is one of them. 337 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,100 Speaker 1: What do we mean when we say spiritual formation? What 338 00:21:27,380 --> 00:21:30,790 Speaker 1: is the spirit? Even just basic philosophy words that you 339 00:21:30,830 --> 00:21:36,070 Speaker 1: throw around like phenomenology or ontology, all of those words. 340 00:21:37,430 --> 00:21:41,350 Speaker 1: They just haven't heard of those. You make it accessible. 341 00:21:41,970 --> 00:21:43,890 Speaker 1: And I think it's worth picking up for that. 342 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 4: Oh, praise God. Thank you. Yeah. 343 00:21:46,859 --> 00:21:50,580 Speaker 1: Yeah. Really well done, bro. One of the things that 344 00:21:50,660 --> 00:21:52,820 Speaker 1: I enjoyed the most was towards the end of your book, 345 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,659 Speaker 1: you start talking about the church being a school of 346 00:21:55,720 --> 00:22:01,090 Speaker 1: life and Willard's imagination for the church being a people 347 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,149 Speaker 1: in place where we get to become the kinds of 348 00:22:03,210 --> 00:22:06,570 Speaker 1: people that really do seek first the kingdom. And so 349 00:22:06,590 --> 00:22:10,439 Speaker 1: I guess my question to you is more, who are 350 00:22:10,500 --> 00:22:12,619 Speaker 1: you looking around? As a professor, especially, you have a 351 00:22:12,700 --> 00:22:15,340 Speaker 1: unique kind of perch. You know, you have a unique 352 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,980 Speaker 1: ability to kind of look out. You are a church planner. 353 00:22:18,540 --> 00:22:21,550 Speaker 1: You've done both sides, academic and daily life as a pastor. 354 00:22:21,570 --> 00:22:24,050 Speaker 1: I'm assuming a lot of people listening to this are 355 00:22:24,090 --> 00:22:27,390 Speaker 1: either leading in the church at some level or are 356 00:22:27,410 --> 00:22:30,900 Speaker 1: a part of a local church. And so... how did 357 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:36,030 Speaker 1: Willard's vision for a missional formation kind of inform you 358 00:22:36,130 --> 00:22:38,889 Speaker 1: and kind of shape you in like, ah, I want 359 00:22:38,910 --> 00:22:40,510 Speaker 1: to be a part of a church like this or 360 00:22:40,609 --> 00:22:44,129 Speaker 1: even networks or churches you look to like, ah, we 361 00:22:44,170 --> 00:22:46,730 Speaker 1: have a lot to learn from this network. We have 362 00:22:46,750 --> 00:22:48,830 Speaker 1: a lot to learn because they're, they're living into this. 363 00:22:48,869 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: They really are being a school of. 364 00:22:51,109 --> 00:22:55,260 Speaker 4: Hmm. Hmm. That's a great question. 365 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,900 Speaker 3: I think first and foremost, I would say that, So 366 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:05,980 Speaker 3: I direct a master's program in spiritual formation leadership, and 367 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,550 Speaker 3: we have our 11th cohort starting. 368 00:23:09,700 --> 00:23:12,330 Speaker 4: So I'm entering the 11th year of this. 369 00:23:12,970 --> 00:23:15,190 Speaker 3: And being able to walk with the students we have 370 00:23:15,450 --> 00:23:19,250 Speaker 3: in our program, they're not all pastors. 371 00:23:19,450 --> 00:23:22,950 Speaker 4: That's by design. I would say it's about 50-50. So 50% 372 00:23:22,950 --> 00:23:23,770 Speaker 4: are pastors. 373 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 3: Vocational ministers or leading parachurch organizations that are working closely 374 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,830 Speaker 3: with churches. And then half of the students are not. 375 00:23:35,180 --> 00:23:42,490 Speaker 3: We have dentists and IT and librarians and we've got 376 00:23:42,530 --> 00:23:45,470 Speaker 3: a high school football coach. And we love that. That's 377 00:23:45,510 --> 00:23:51,430 Speaker 3: by design that these students would do a deep dive 378 00:23:51,570 --> 00:23:56,690 Speaker 3: into how character formation takes place. in the power of 379 00:23:56,710 --> 00:24:00,169 Speaker 3: the spirit. Um, and also we want to study why do, 380 00:24:00,410 --> 00:24:02,719 Speaker 3: why do we not see more of this going on? 381 00:24:02,740 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 3: I mean, we are in a crisis of character today, 382 00:24:07,700 --> 00:24:10,619 Speaker 3: both in the church and in society at large. You know, 383 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,950 Speaker 3: David Brooks, one of my favorite cultural commentators a few 384 00:24:14,990 --> 00:24:19,070 Speaker 3: years back in Atlantic article, um, wrote about this. It's, 385 00:24:19,210 --> 00:24:22,730 Speaker 3: it's titled how America got mean. And it's a, and 386 00:24:22,869 --> 00:24:26,379 Speaker 3: it's an article about character formation. Um, And it's lack 387 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:31,550 Speaker 3: thereof in our society over the last 20, 30 years. 388 00:24:31,630 --> 00:24:33,230 Speaker 4: It's an extraordinary read. 389 00:24:34,670 --> 00:24:37,730 Speaker 3: But so the program is for students who want to 390 00:24:38,010 --> 00:24:40,990 Speaker 3: do a deep dive into that for themselves to experience 391 00:24:41,030 --> 00:24:45,470 Speaker 3: in order to undergo that, but then to transmit that 392 00:24:45,530 --> 00:24:49,060 Speaker 3: to others in their own context. And I would I'm 393 00:24:49,140 --> 00:24:54,060 Speaker 3: mentioning all this because I've seen amazing things over really 394 00:24:54,100 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 3: the last decade. with students in our program who are 395 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:06,990 Speaker 3: leading small fellowships and churches and are really wrestling with 396 00:25:08,190 --> 00:25:11,869 Speaker 3: how to approach their congregations as schools of living, as 397 00:25:11,910 --> 00:25:16,230 Speaker 3: schools of life. And I don't know if any articles 398 00:25:16,300 --> 00:25:19,479 Speaker 3: or books are being written about these churches, but they 399 00:25:20,140 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 3: have been imprinted on my mind as examples of these 400 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,619 Speaker 3: examples of the church as a school of life, of 401 00:25:29,660 --> 00:25:33,980 Speaker 3: where apprenticeship to Jesus is first and foremost, and understanding 402 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,140 Speaker 3: that the church exists to produce people who resemble Jesus 403 00:25:38,220 --> 00:25:44,950 Speaker 3: in lifestyle, love, values, belief, and purpose. To begin there, 404 00:25:44,970 --> 00:25:48,770 Speaker 3: that spiritual formation is not just merely one program in 405 00:25:48,790 --> 00:25:52,990 Speaker 3: the church. And, you know, we saw, I would say, 406 00:25:54,660 --> 00:25:59,020 Speaker 3: Circa 2010 onwards, we've seen a lot of growth in 407 00:25:59,180 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 3: churches recognizing spiritual formation as important. Even hiring pastors of 408 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 3: formation and devoting some of their energies toward this. 409 00:26:10,180 --> 00:26:12,050 Speaker 4: And I want to applaud that. I want to say 410 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:12,970 Speaker 4: amen to that. 411 00:26:13,750 --> 00:26:16,430 Speaker 3: And I also want to say we still have room 412 00:26:16,470 --> 00:26:22,150 Speaker 3: to grow here. It shows that we're not fully there yet. 413 00:26:23,869 --> 00:26:27,770 Speaker 3: if we don't understand the church itself as formational, that 414 00:26:27,790 --> 00:26:31,190 Speaker 3: that's the reason it exists, that it's not a special 415 00:26:31,260 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 3: ministry or one pastor's role, that it is what the. 416 00:26:37,020 --> 00:26:37,900 Speaker 4: Pastorate is about. 417 00:26:39,180 --> 00:26:45,460 Speaker 3: That all ministers are called to take the formation of 418 00:26:45,550 --> 00:26:50,690 Speaker 3: persons in the likeness of Christ Seriously, that it's right 419 00:26:50,730 --> 00:26:52,409 Speaker 3: at the top. So that's where I would begin. And 420 00:26:52,430 --> 00:26:55,340 Speaker 3: I would say that there's others. I would also say 421 00:26:55,380 --> 00:27:02,140 Speaker 3: that when I was pastoring in Miami, you know, the 422 00:27:02,420 --> 00:27:07,350 Speaker 3: church father, Tertullian, said that Christians are not born, they're made. 423 00:27:08,310 --> 00:27:10,500 Speaker 4: I would say if... I would add to that. 424 00:27:10,940 --> 00:27:13,989 Speaker 3: And if they can be made in Miami, they can 425 00:27:14,010 --> 00:27:22,330 Speaker 3: be made anywhere, baby. Miami is a city known for martinis, bikinis, 426 00:27:22,390 --> 00:27:23,210 Speaker 3: and Lamborghinis. 427 00:27:23,369 --> 00:27:25,770 Speaker 4: And so trying. 428 00:27:26,750 --> 00:27:30,030 Speaker 3: To have a congregation that's shaped in the likeness of 429 00:27:30,070 --> 00:27:34,510 Speaker 3: Christ there, man, what a laboratory that was for us. 430 00:27:34,980 --> 00:27:36,780 Speaker 3: When we were doing that, I have to say that 431 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,140 Speaker 3: there were only a handful of other congregations and churches 432 00:27:41,100 --> 00:27:44,070 Speaker 3: around the country that we knew of and were connected 433 00:27:44,130 --> 00:27:46,669 Speaker 3: with that were really pursuing this in the way. And 434 00:27:47,430 --> 00:27:51,090 Speaker 3: we've come a long way in the last decade or 435 00:27:51,170 --> 00:27:56,290 Speaker 3: so where I know of a multitude of churches. Again, 436 00:27:56,390 --> 00:28:00,880 Speaker 3: some of them maybe not getting the press that others 437 00:28:01,020 --> 00:28:06,090 Speaker 3: would receive, but I'm deeply encouraged. That in the midst 438 00:28:06,230 --> 00:28:11,540 Speaker 3: of this character crisis, that there are these pirate islands. 439 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:17,730 Speaker 3: The book that I'm currently working on, Pirate Island Ecclesiology. 440 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,360 Speaker 3: It is the church that's called to be a pirate island. 441 00:28:20,380 --> 00:28:22,580 Speaker 3: You know, you study the, I mean, I've been doing 442 00:28:22,619 --> 00:28:29,410 Speaker 3: my research, y'all. I studied like the history of piracy. 443 00:28:30,470 --> 00:28:33,270 Speaker 3: In the heyday of piracy, you would have the mainland 444 00:28:33,670 --> 00:28:36,699 Speaker 3: over here that has all of its customs, traditions, and 445 00:28:36,740 --> 00:28:38,860 Speaker 3: way of life. And then you'd have these crazy little 446 00:28:38,900 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 3: pirate islands. And the minute you step foot on them, 447 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,490 Speaker 3: you encountered piracy. different customs, traditions, a whole different way 448 00:28:48,110 --> 00:28:51,630 Speaker 3: of being and living. And I contend that the church 449 00:28:51,690 --> 00:28:53,590 Speaker 3: is called to be a pirate island right in the 450 00:28:53,610 --> 00:28:56,550 Speaker 3: middle of our cities, not to round the wagons up 451 00:28:56,590 --> 00:28:59,850 Speaker 3: and just be about ourselves, but to actually go out 452 00:28:59,910 --> 00:29:02,150 Speaker 3: and spread the holy mischief, you know, to take the 453 00:29:02,210 --> 00:29:05,950 Speaker 3: pirate ways out there. But it's back on the island 454 00:29:05,970 --> 00:29:09,450 Speaker 3: that we are formed in the way of Jesus to 455 00:29:09,510 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 3: be able to do that and not lose our way. 456 00:29:12,530 --> 00:29:18,330 Speaker 3: And I'm encouraged by seeing Pirate Islands today. Friends that 457 00:29:18,370 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 3: are pastoring communities that are doing the hard work. Some networks, 458 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 3: the Ecclesia Network would be one that I'd point to. 459 00:29:27,500 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 3: I also think there's some great stuff cooking with practicing 460 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,470 Speaker 3: the way. Some of the resourcing that they're doing. Historically, 461 00:29:36,490 --> 00:29:40,330 Speaker 3: the spiritual formation movement, I think, has been wonderful. weak 462 00:29:40,690 --> 00:29:44,620 Speaker 3: on ecclesiology, on a theology of the church. And I'm 463 00:29:44,670 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 3: encouraged by some of these developments that we're thinking of formation. 464 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 3: We're thinking of the church as ground zero for spiritual formation. 465 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 4: That really encourages. 466 00:29:59,540 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think for me, all that is so, and 467 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:07,380 Speaker 1: I'm with you, Keith, 100%. I'm seeing a rapid growth, 468 00:30:07,580 --> 00:30:12,100 Speaker 1: even in imagination of people asking those two, Willard, more 469 00:30:12,140 --> 00:30:14,940 Speaker 1: so than ever. How are we doing? Like, what is 470 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,620 Speaker 1: our plan? And is it working? I'm listening to pastors 471 00:30:18,700 --> 00:30:22,290 Speaker 1: ask that question. And it's one of the reasons since 2015, 472 00:30:22,290 --> 00:30:25,490 Speaker 1: I've kind of hitched my wagon to Unhurried Living with 473 00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:29,490 Speaker 1: Alan and Jim. is because they're interested in all these things. 474 00:30:30,070 --> 00:30:30,450 Speaker 3: Amen. 475 00:30:30,490 --> 00:30:33,170 Speaker 1: And they're doing, and they're actually living it out in 476 00:30:33,210 --> 00:30:36,670 Speaker 1: their everyday life. And so, yeah, I'm deeply grateful. 477 00:30:37,610 --> 00:30:38,590 Speaker 3: Amen. Amen. 478 00:30:39,330 --> 00:30:40,230 Speaker 4: Thanks. 479 00:30:40,990 --> 00:30:45,900 Speaker 2: So I love, Keith, that the academic program you are 480 00:30:46,300 --> 00:30:51,340 Speaker 2: guiding is focused on that integration, formation and leadership, formation 481 00:30:51,380 --> 00:30:54,700 Speaker 2: and mission. And I, I think there's so many levels 482 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 2: at which integration can happen. Of course, there's also a 483 00:30:57,260 --> 00:31:01,540 Speaker 2: lot of levels disintegration can happen. But I would love 484 00:31:01,580 --> 00:31:04,940 Speaker 2: to hear you just think out loud. What would you 485 00:31:05,060 --> 00:31:08,330 Speaker 2: love to see in terms of how it is that 486 00:31:08,410 --> 00:31:14,130 Speaker 2: formation and leadership more and more deeply integrate with one another? 487 00:31:14,150 --> 00:31:17,410 Speaker 2: I look out there and sometimes I'll see a leader 488 00:31:17,450 --> 00:31:20,630 Speaker 2: who's got a somewhat formed life, but that formation doesn't 489 00:31:20,650 --> 00:31:24,510 Speaker 2: seem to leak into their leadership philosophy. Or I'll see 490 00:31:24,550 --> 00:31:28,060 Speaker 2: a person deeply concerned about spiritual formation who has no 491 00:31:28,130 --> 00:31:32,460 Speaker 2: imagination for leadership at all. I would love to just 492 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 2: hear you think out loud about how would you love 493 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:41,500 Speaker 2: to see spiritual formation and leadership more and more deeply 494 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,700 Speaker 2: integrated in the life of the church? 495 00:31:45,660 --> 00:31:46,090 Speaker 3: Oh, man. 496 00:31:46,660 --> 00:31:47,810 Speaker 4: Great question, Alan. 497 00:31:47,850 --> 00:31:51,150 Speaker 3: And You know, like Matt said, I would want to 498 00:31:51,190 --> 00:31:53,830 Speaker 3: double click on that, that your own work, I think, 499 00:31:54,930 --> 00:31:57,550 Speaker 3: is doing a great job at addressing that. 500 00:31:58,320 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 4: And I was. 501 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 3: Listening to, I was asked to speak to a group 502 00:32:03,300 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 3: of therapists in Topeka earlier this summer, a group of 503 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:14,990 Speaker 3: Christian therapists, on the question of the integration of formation 504 00:32:15,010 --> 00:32:21,540 Speaker 3: and psychology. And I got deep into my Willardian bag, 505 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,740 Speaker 3: pulled out some talks. Part of my research was going 506 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,660 Speaker 3: through listening to hundreds and hundreds of these recordings. Tremendous 507 00:32:29,740 --> 00:32:34,510 Speaker 3: resource of Willard's work that is just now getting tapped into. 508 00:32:34,910 --> 00:32:38,990 Speaker 3: There's about 1,300 assets, we would call them. 1,300 hours 509 00:32:39,030 --> 00:32:42,210 Speaker 3: of him preaching or teaching and lectures that were recorded 510 00:32:42,230 --> 00:32:45,100 Speaker 3: over the years. So I got deep in my bag 511 00:32:45,140 --> 00:32:47,770 Speaker 3: and pulled out one from, I think it's 1992, 92 512 00:32:47,770 --> 00:32:53,010 Speaker 3: or 93, where Dallas was a therapist. 513 00:32:54,390 --> 00:32:56,530 Speaker 4: And he says, you know, my reading. 514 00:32:56,230 --> 00:33:01,900 Speaker 3: Of the literature, he wasn't a, he actually did study psychology. 515 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 3: He did it as a minor at one point, but 516 00:33:04,540 --> 00:33:07,620 Speaker 3: this wasn't his field of expertise. But he stayed relevant 517 00:33:07,660 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 3: in all of these. I mean, the dude was a 518 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,650 Speaker 3: renaissance man. He really was a polymath. He said, my 519 00:33:13,710 --> 00:33:17,130 Speaker 3: reading of the literature is that the factors that matter most, 520 00:33:17,790 --> 00:33:23,610 Speaker 3: the factors for bringing about change in a client's life 521 00:33:23,710 --> 00:33:24,430 Speaker 3: are twofold. 522 00:33:24,790 --> 00:33:32,620 Speaker 4: One is that there is a sense of desire on the. 523 00:33:34,060 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 3: Client side that they believe that they can be changed, 524 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 3: that they're hopeful, that they're looking for it. 525 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 4: They're looking for it. So there's an eagerness. 526 00:33:43,940 --> 00:33:49,270 Speaker 3: And he said the second one is the hopefulness of 527 00:33:49,430 --> 00:33:52,830 Speaker 3: the client. And he began, I'm sorry, of the therapist. 528 00:33:54,300 --> 00:34:03,420 Speaker 3: The sense of their own being, their presence with the, 529 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:05,989 Speaker 3: the client and he's describing it in a way. I mean, 530 00:34:06,010 --> 00:34:08,830 Speaker 3: he's not going into like family systems theory and all that, 531 00:34:09,210 --> 00:34:12,069 Speaker 3: but that's what he's describing more or less is that 532 00:34:12,310 --> 00:34:16,610 Speaker 3: they are centered in such a way that whatever's going 533 00:34:16,810 --> 00:34:19,090 Speaker 3: on in their own life, there's, they're still able to 534 00:34:19,210 --> 00:34:22,549 Speaker 3: fully show up and be present and give to this person. 535 00:34:22,610 --> 00:34:25,780 Speaker 3: They have this healthy self differentiation. And then he makes 536 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 3: this statement at the end, throw away a line that 537 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,900 Speaker 3: I love it. He says, I really think this is merely, um, 538 00:34:33,170 --> 00:34:38,029 Speaker 3: a matter of the substance of their soul going over 539 00:34:38,090 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 3: to the other person. So this summer, I've been kind 540 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 3: of sitting with that, the substance of their soul. In 541 00:34:46,060 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 3: the world of psychotherapy, this is spoken of as way 542 00:34:50,540 --> 00:34:53,250 Speaker 3: of being, right? But that's what he's getting at, the 543 00:34:53,350 --> 00:34:57,730 Speaker 3: substance of their soul. And I think I would say 544 00:34:57,930 --> 00:35:03,020 Speaker 3: on this issue of formation and leadership, These can't be, 545 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 3: I mean, exactly stuff that you've written about, Alan, these 546 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,820 Speaker 3: can't be separate. We can't think, I mean, one, a 547 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:18,259 Speaker 3: leader's spiritual formation is not separate from their leadership training. 548 00:35:18,700 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 3: It's actually integral to it because the quality of your 549 00:35:24,860 --> 00:35:29,629 Speaker 3: presence with others is downstream from the condition of your 550 00:35:29,730 --> 00:35:30,229 Speaker 3: own soul. 551 00:35:31,020 --> 00:35:33,479 Speaker 4: That's right. Yes. 552 00:35:33,620 --> 00:35:44,450 Speaker 3: And so learning what keeps you anchored in your belovedness 553 00:35:44,510 --> 00:35:47,950 Speaker 3: before God, that that's the core of your identity. 554 00:35:48,130 --> 00:35:49,290 Speaker 4: And to be growing in that. 555 00:35:49,390 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 3: As Parker Palmer says, that self-care is not selfish. It's 556 00:35:53,660 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 3: simply protecting and caring for the one thing you ultimately 557 00:35:58,380 --> 00:35:59,740 Speaker 3: have to give to the world. 558 00:36:00,910 --> 00:36:02,070 Speaker 4: Which is yourself. 559 00:36:04,380 --> 00:36:07,060 Speaker 3: And so understanding that you, you can't, you simply cannot 560 00:36:07,180 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 3: lead people, some others to where you haven't been. You 561 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 3: have nothing to give to them unless you have some 562 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:18,750 Speaker 3: substance to your soul. 563 00:36:18,770 --> 00:36:23,110 Speaker 4: I love that case. Maybe I can share Alan. 564 00:36:23,150 --> 00:36:25,549 Speaker 3: If we have time, I'll share something that has helped 565 00:36:25,590 --> 00:36:28,170 Speaker 3: me with this is I remember when I was working 566 00:36:28,290 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 3: on my dissertation and I was feeling, so overwhelmed by 567 00:36:32,860 --> 00:36:35,180 Speaker 3: the scope of this project. 568 00:36:35,219 --> 00:36:37,720 Speaker 4: You know, the dissertation itself was about six years. 569 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 3: And then I turned around and worked on making the 570 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 3: majority of that into a book. You know, I wanted 571 00:36:47,180 --> 00:36:50,819 Speaker 3: to make it accessible, readable. Ain't nobody out there want 572 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,049 Speaker 3: to read a PhD dissertation. So I feel like I 573 00:36:53,070 --> 00:36:56,690 Speaker 3: wrote every sentence, try and translate it. So I'm right 574 00:36:56,710 --> 00:36:59,069 Speaker 3: in the middle of my dissertation. I'm feeling overwhelmed. I'm 575 00:36:59,130 --> 00:37:04,230 Speaker 3: sitting with my spiritual, director and older Jesuit priest. And 576 00:37:04,350 --> 00:37:07,830 Speaker 3: I'm getting soul naked with him. I'm, I'm, that's my 577 00:37:07,890 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 3: term for, you know, dropping all the fakes in front 578 00:37:10,180 --> 00:37:13,299 Speaker 3: and just being transparent with someone. I'm sharing with him 579 00:37:13,340 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 3: where I'm at. And, and, and it looks like he's 580 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 3: just doodling. Like he's just writing. I'm going, Oh my gosh, 581 00:37:19,739 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 3: is this guy here? I am like burying my soul. 582 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,029 Speaker 3: It looks like he's just kind of doodling. So I 583 00:37:24,090 --> 00:37:26,150 Speaker 3: finished pouring out my soul and then he holds up 584 00:37:26,170 --> 00:37:29,390 Speaker 3: this piece of paper and it's got three lines on it. 585 00:37:31,989 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 3: And he says, this is your who-ness. 586 00:37:37,460 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 4: This is your identity. 587 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 3: And here, this top line right here, the most surface stuff, 588 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,620 Speaker 3: this is you as a minister of the gospel. 589 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 4: This is all your work that you're doing. It's good. 590 00:37:47,180 --> 00:37:49,820 Speaker 4: It's important. It's also the most surface. 591 00:37:49,860 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 3: He goes below that, this is your calling as a 592 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:58,509 Speaker 3: husband and as a father. He says, and then the lowest, 593 00:37:58,810 --> 00:38:05,470 Speaker 3: the most bottom bedrock level, this is your beloved before God. 594 00:38:06,270 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 3: That you're God's beloved child in whom he delights, in 595 00:38:12,100 --> 00:38:16,359 Speaker 3: whom he loves. And then he took this little piece 596 00:38:16,380 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 3: of paper and he made this little mark at the 597 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,719 Speaker 3: very top on that top line. He made like a 598 00:38:20,739 --> 00:38:23,060 Speaker 3: little square and he goes, oh, and this is your 599 00:38:23,100 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 3: PhD dissertation. It's got like a clear start date, a 600 00:38:27,540 --> 00:38:30,969 Speaker 3: clear end date. And it's just one, you know, this 601 00:38:31,050 --> 00:38:33,890 Speaker 3: too shall pass. Let me tell you that, that asked 602 00:38:34,969 --> 00:38:36,629 Speaker 3: that I was telling a friend of mine, I was like, 603 00:38:36,650 --> 00:38:38,450 Speaker 3: I have to, and I'm going to reach across here. 604 00:38:38,469 --> 00:38:41,230 Speaker 3: I was like, I have to find a way. I 605 00:38:41,270 --> 00:38:44,690 Speaker 3: need some kind of icon for this. And one of 606 00:38:44,750 --> 00:38:48,310 Speaker 3: my friends who was a wood, a wood maker, the 607 00:38:48,850 --> 00:38:51,350 Speaker 3: next week he comes and he, and he hands me this, 608 00:38:51,890 --> 00:38:55,810 Speaker 3: which you can see it's got these, These three lines, 609 00:38:56,410 --> 00:38:58,109 Speaker 3: and if people are just listening to this, they won't 610 00:38:58,150 --> 00:38:59,870 Speaker 3: be able to check it. It's got this little chip, 611 00:39:00,850 --> 00:39:03,870 Speaker 3: a little block on the top that represents that. This 612 00:39:03,930 --> 00:39:09,410 Speaker 3: sits on my desk, reminds me of my own goodness 613 00:39:10,550 --> 00:39:18,910 Speaker 3: of keeping those layers sorted and in proper perspective that 614 00:39:19,530 --> 00:39:23,770 Speaker 3: my work, my leadership, my vocation, flows out of that 615 00:39:24,030 --> 00:39:26,750 Speaker 3: poor identity as God's beloved. 616 00:39:30,110 --> 00:39:33,209 Speaker 2: That's beautiful, Keith. Thank you for taking a minute to 617 00:39:33,370 --> 00:39:36,029 Speaker 2: share that as well. I was going to ask you 618 00:39:36,070 --> 00:39:38,090 Speaker 2: if you would give us a word of blessing, and 619 00:39:38,110 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 2: I feel like that's what you've just done. You know, 620 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:50,030 Speaker 2: I'm so struck by how we can know that we're beloved, 621 00:39:51,630 --> 00:39:55,029 Speaker 2: but then we can know, we can rely on, we 622 00:39:55,070 --> 00:39:59,250 Speaker 2: can rest in, we can be at home in that 623 00:39:59,310 --> 00:40:02,350 Speaker 2: as our core reality. And gosh, the longer I go, 624 00:40:02,410 --> 00:40:05,430 Speaker 2: I'm in my mid-60s now, the longer I go, the 625 00:40:05,469 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 2: more I think I'm convinced that's what we need. We 626 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,819 Speaker 2: need to know that at the heart of who we 627 00:40:13,900 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 2: are as people, the heart of who we are in 628 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,549 Speaker 2: our roles, being dads, being husbands, being parents, professors or 629 00:40:19,590 --> 00:40:22,779 Speaker 2: pastors or whatever. And then the things that we do 630 00:40:22,860 --> 00:40:26,319 Speaker 2: in leadership or in ministry or work or organizational, you know, 631 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,140 Speaker 2: oversight or whatever, like all of it has a simple foundation. 632 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,980 Speaker 2: And you've done a beautiful job of helping us feel that. 633 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 2: Could I ask you maybe just to close our episode 634 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,490 Speaker 2: with a comment or two? What would you like our 635 00:40:39,860 --> 00:40:41,649 Speaker 2: listeners to just be left with? 636 00:40:42,890 --> 00:40:45,170 Speaker 3: I'm going to, I'm going to riff off of what 637 00:40:45,190 --> 00:40:51,790 Speaker 3: you just said there by, by, by pointing to something 638 00:40:51,830 --> 00:40:54,009 Speaker 3: kind of funny that I found in. 639 00:40:54,500 --> 00:40:57,220 Speaker 4: Dallas Willard's papers. 640 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,970 Speaker 3: There's these boxes and boxes of all of his unpublished 641 00:41:02,030 --> 00:41:06,660 Speaker 3: materials and notes and artifacts. at the Westmont college in 642 00:41:06,700 --> 00:41:10,630 Speaker 3: the basement of their library there, they have his beekeeping suit, 643 00:41:11,130 --> 00:41:13,210 Speaker 3: unless you, you know, in case you want to visit 644 00:41:13,230 --> 00:41:15,390 Speaker 3: there and try that on for yourself. But one of 645 00:41:15,410 --> 00:41:18,090 Speaker 3: the things I spent weeks out there, did multiple trips 646 00:41:18,110 --> 00:41:22,190 Speaker 3: when I was researching, writing my dissertation. And then this book, 647 00:41:22,370 --> 00:41:25,009 Speaker 3: I returned when I was writing the book. One of 648 00:41:25,050 --> 00:41:29,510 Speaker 3: the things I found was his business card, his business card. Um, 649 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:31,490 Speaker 3: Has all the usual. 650 00:41:31,510 --> 00:41:33,310 Speaker 4: Have you ever seen this, Alan? It has all the 651 00:41:33,430 --> 00:41:36,910 Speaker 4: usual stuff on it. I probably did in his office. Yeah. 652 00:41:37,070 --> 00:41:38,310 Speaker 4: His credentials. 653 00:41:39,050 --> 00:41:43,590 Speaker 3: But then it also has this little logo of a lamb. 654 00:41:44,630 --> 00:41:47,989 Speaker 3: It's the lamb of God carrying the cross. And it 655 00:41:48,070 --> 00:41:52,940 Speaker 3: has blood flowing out of its chest. 656 00:41:52,910 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 4: Into a chalice. And then he is. Oh, there we go. 657 00:41:57,260 --> 00:41:58,020 Speaker 4: That's got it. 658 00:41:58,040 --> 00:41:58,380 Speaker 3: Yeah. 659 00:41:58,420 --> 00:42:01,890 Speaker 4: At the end of the book. Yeah. Oh, yep. 660 00:42:02,110 --> 00:42:06,790 Speaker 3: And it's got, uh, underneath that, um, I'll hold it 661 00:42:06,870 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 3: up as well because here's one other thing that I 662 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,360 Speaker 3: keep that I keep on my, on my desk. 663 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:17,580 Speaker 4: Right. Oh yeah. It's got the, the, the Latin phrase 664 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:18,410 Speaker 4: underneath it. 665 00:42:18,900 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 3: Nudie nudum Christum sequi nakedly falling the naked Christ. And, um, So, yeah, Matt, 666 00:42:30,420 --> 00:42:32,219 Speaker 3: I mean, you held up the book actually in the 667 00:42:32,260 --> 00:42:36,900 Speaker 3: book by by reflecting on this, that I think we 668 00:42:36,940 --> 00:42:38,640 Speaker 3: need to read his theology with. 669 00:42:38,540 --> 00:42:39,240 Speaker 4: This in mind. 670 00:42:39,260 --> 00:42:42,350 Speaker 3: That at the end of the day, isn't it interesting 671 00:42:42,390 --> 00:42:44,870 Speaker 3: that Dallas chose to put that on his business card? 672 00:42:45,650 --> 00:42:50,170 Speaker 3: Usually this piece of information that communicates credentials. 673 00:42:50,330 --> 00:42:54,070 Speaker 4: Title, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, Dr. 674 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:59,500 Speaker 3: Reverend, blah, blah, blah, blah. And Dallas instead. wants to 675 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:05,069 Speaker 3: put there that his core identity is an apprentice of Jesus, 676 00:43:06,010 --> 00:43:08,030 Speaker 3: nakedly following his naked Lord. 677 00:43:09,030 --> 00:43:11,529 Speaker 4: And so that's what I would leave us with. 678 00:43:11,850 --> 00:43:17,589 Speaker 3: Alan, is may we together, as a community of apprentices, 679 00:43:18,350 --> 00:43:22,370 Speaker 3: remember at the end of the day, we're just beggars 680 00:43:22,430 --> 00:43:27,049 Speaker 3: telling other beggars where the bread is. We're just nakedly 681 00:43:27,150 --> 00:43:28,379 Speaker 3: following our naked Lord. 682 00:43:29,930 --> 00:43:31,890 Speaker 2: That is such a potent image. 683 00:43:32,090 --> 00:43:32,410 Speaker 4: Yeah. 684 00:43:33,210 --> 00:43:36,030 Speaker 2: Well, again, today our guest has been Keith Kiesler. We've 685 00:43:36,050 --> 00:43:40,560 Speaker 2: been talking about his book, Kingdom Apprenticeship. Keith, it's been 686 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:42,440 Speaker 2: just such a treat for Matt and I to have 687 00:43:42,460 --> 00:43:43,560 Speaker 2: this conversation with you. 688 00:43:44,140 --> 00:43:45,859 Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you for having me. 689 00:43:49,580 --> 00:43:52,839 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to the Unhurried Living podcast. To 690 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:57,669 Speaker 2: learn more about us, visit unhurriedliving.com. In the show notes, 691 00:43:57,710 --> 00:44:02,450 Speaker 2: you'll find helpful links and information about our partner, Life Audio, 692 00:44:02,550 --> 00:44:05,520 Speaker 2: and all of their other faith-centered podcasts.