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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: You are listening to The Becket Cook Show with your

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Speaker 2: host Beckett Cook. For more information about Beckett and his ministry,

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Speaker 2: visit his website at Beckettcook dot com. To help support

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Speaker 2: star rating.

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Speaker 3: Hey, guys, welcome to the show today. My guest is

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Speaker 3: Denny Burke, and he has a new book out called

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Speaker 3: Merror Complementarianism Male and Female in the Image of God.

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Speaker 3: And Denny's been on my show before. He is the

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Speaker 3: professor of Biblical Studies at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.

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Speaker 3: He's also the president of cal on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood,

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Speaker 3: and he's a preaching pastor and he's written several books,

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Speaker 3: including this, and I'm excited to get into it because

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Speaker 3: it's this is a really good read and we're going

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Speaker 3: to answer a lot of questions about complementarianism, but we're

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Speaker 3: also going to talk about women head coverings. We're going

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Speaker 3: to talk about how affirming LGBTQ always goes through an

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Speaker 3: egalitarianism worldview first, and we're going to talk about who

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Speaker 3: can preach on Sunday mornings, who can teach Sunday school,

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Speaker 3: who can teach in seminary, who can serve as deacons.

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Speaker 3: We're going to talk about Phoebe and what that was

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Speaker 3: all about, and many many other things. But first awards

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Speaker 3: from our sponsor. So please welcome Denny Burke.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much, glad to be here.

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Speaker 3: Good to have you back again. I don't know you've

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Speaker 3: been on a couple of times, maybe or at least once, right.

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Speaker 1: I have I have.

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Speaker 3: So mere complimentarianism, male and female in the image of God.

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Speaker 3: This is I As I said in the intros, it's

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Speaker 3: a fascinating reader. I was really anxious to read it

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Speaker 3: because I wanted to get like the full picture of it.

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Speaker 3: Although this, I mean, this is mere complementarianism. It's not

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Speaker 3: like everything you could say about it. But what do

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Speaker 3: you mean by mere complimentarianism?

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Speaker 1: Hey, listen, Thanks for having me on here, and thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for talking about the book. The reason

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about mere complementarianism is because I think a

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Speaker 1: lot there's a lot of confusion out there about what

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Speaker 1: complementarianism is and so complimentary for those of you who

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Speaker 1: are tuning in and you know, maybe you've listened to

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Speaker 1: you Know Beckett's podcast before and you've heard him talk

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Speaker 1: about complimentarism. But for anybody, he hasn't ever heard this before.

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Speaker 1: Complimentarianism is just a doctrine that talks about how men

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Speaker 1: and women relate to each other, first of all in

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Speaker 1: the church and the home, but I believe even beyond

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Speaker 1: the church and the home, and complementarianism is the more

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Speaker 1: traditional biblical view because it teaches that while men and

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Speaker 1: women are equally created in the image of God, and

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Speaker 1: they have equal access to Christ and the benefits of

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Speaker 1: redemption through the Spirit, they are nevertheless real differences between

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Speaker 1: male and female, and those differences have implications for the

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Speaker 1: way we live and what roles we inhabit in this world.

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Speaker 1: In marriage, that means that husbands are the head of

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Speaker 1: their home, and they're supposed to lead and protect and

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Speaker 1: to provide for their wives, and their wives are supposed

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Speaker 1: to be serving as a helper and as a nurturer.

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Speaker 1: Those are the main roles, and so they're different roles,

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Speaker 1: they're complimentary roles, and we call it complementarianism because not

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Speaker 1: because they're at odds with each other, but because they

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Speaker 1: complete each other. So it's complainment, not compliment with an eye,

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Speaker 1: but compliment with an e. Because male and female complete

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Speaker 1: each other not only in the sexual bond, but also

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Speaker 1: in the way that they relate to each other. There's

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Speaker 1: a social complementarity that's there as well, and you see

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Speaker 1: it in the home. You also see it in the

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Speaker 1: church because God calls men and women different roles there too,

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Speaker 1: and the church norms are different for male and female.

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Speaker 1: God only calls qualified men to service as pastors and

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Speaker 1: to be the main preachers in a church, and so

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Speaker 1: those are kind of your basics of complementarianism. But the

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Speaker 1: reason I wrote this book was because I think there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of misunderstanding about what complementarianism is. And I

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Speaker 1: did not title this book mere complementarianism because I want

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Speaker 1: people to think of it as minimal complementarianism. That's not

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Speaker 1: the reason I'm doing it at all. The reason I'm

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Speaker 1: calling it that is because as I've observed debates over

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Speaker 1: the last you know, many years that I've been writing

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Speaker 1: and thinking about this issue, I've seen a lot of

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Speaker 1: people sort of distort complementarianism by either saying too much

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Speaker 1: or saying too little. By that, I mean sometimes people

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Speaker 1: are adding things to complementarianism that really don't have anything

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Speaker 1: to do with the essence of the doctrine. And so,

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Speaker 1: you know, one you know, very prominent example of this

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Speaker 1: is the doctrine that sometimes called e f S or

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Speaker 1: the eternal functional Subordination of the Son, which is a

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Speaker 1: certain view of the trinity, very controversial about ten years

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Speaker 1: tiers or ten years ago, blew up online and it's

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Speaker 1: about the pre incarnate son submission to the Father. How

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Speaker 1: that relates to the way we think about gender roles.

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Speaker 3: So wait, does that is that? Does that mean that

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Speaker 3: Jesus was always submitting to the Father in all eternity?

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Speaker 3: Is that what it's so?

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Speaker 1: E f S would hold to a version of that.

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Speaker 1: That's correct. They're actually the people who would hold the

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Speaker 1: e f S are They're not all the same. But

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Speaker 1: there is in some sense a pre incarnate submission of

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Speaker 1: the son to the Father. And it became very controversial

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Speaker 1: as a trendy tarian matter, and I think some of

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Speaker 1: some of the things that have been said along these

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Speaker 1: lines actually do to depart from a classical way of

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Speaker 1: putting trinitarianism. And so you have a lot of critics

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Speaker 1: of complementarianism who say, oh, if e F S is complementarianism,

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Speaker 1: because you've got you know, First Corinthians eleven three talking

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Speaker 1: about Christ being the head of man, man being head

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Speaker 1: of the woman, God being the head of Christ, and

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Speaker 1: so therefore this is a trinitarian issue and you have

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Speaker 1: to hold the e F S to be a complementarian.

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Speaker 1: That's actually not true, that complementarianism is not dependent upon

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Speaker 1: e F S at all. It's not a fundamental to

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Speaker 1: the belief frame at all. See if some people saying so,

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Speaker 1: that's just one example of saying more. You have some

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Speaker 1: people who say less, and who would say that, you know,

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Speaker 1: you can have women pastors and still be a complimentarian.

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Speaker 1: They would say that you could have women being the

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Speaker 1: main preachers in a church and you could still be complementarian,

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Speaker 1: and these would be your you know, soft complementarians. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's saying less than what complementarianism is. What

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to assert is not some kind of an

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Speaker 1: Aristotelian mean between two of these, I'm not trying to

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Speaker 1: give you. Okay, there's here, here's really cold, here's really hot.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to give you some you know, the poor

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Speaker 1: yeah loke, or that's not what it is. Mir What

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Speaker 1: I mean by mirror is I just want to say

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Speaker 1: what the Bible says, and I just want to be

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Speaker 1: faithful to what Scripture says. And there was actually a

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Speaker 1: doctrinal proposition in nineteen eighty seven that almost forty years

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Speaker 1: ago called the Danverse Statement, which articulated complementarian doctrine. And

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Speaker 1: so when you think about complementarianism, some people think of

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Speaker 1: it like a sociological movement or kind of like a

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Speaker 1: vibe or something. It's actually a doctrinal proposition. And the

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Speaker 1: word complementarianism was coined by a group of people who

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Speaker 1: who wrote the Danverse Statement so that they would have

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Speaker 1: a one word way of referring to that doctrine. And

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Speaker 1: so what I'm saying mere complementarianism is is Danverse. It's

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Speaker 1: the doctrinal proposition articulated in Danvers, and Danvers actually is

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Speaker 1: a lot more thorough going and a lot more substantial

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Speaker 1: than a lot of soft complementarians give it credit for.

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Speaker 1: And really then a lot of biblical patriarchy people give

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Speaker 1: it credit for. So I'm trying to argue for mere complementarianism,

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Speaker 1: which is a robust form of male female difference is

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Speaker 1: taught in scripture and then seeing how that's lived out

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Speaker 1: in all of life.

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Speaker 3: So comp the term complimentarianism wasn't coined until nineteen eighty seven, correct, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And what why did the danverse statement need to be

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Speaker 3: written in the first place.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So, what was going on in the nineteen seventies

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Speaker 1: and eighties is that within North American evangelicalism, especially in

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Speaker 1: the United States, you started to see a really strong

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Speaker 1: drift towards Christian feminism. Forms of Christian feminism, which you know,

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Speaker 1: really was a totalizing view over all of life, but

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Speaker 1: it specifically had reference to how people function in churches,

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Speaker 1: and you see you started to see women pastors, women preachers.

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Speaker 1: You started to see the teaching that husbands and wives

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Speaker 1: were basically interchangeable in their roles. There was no one

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Speaker 1: called to be head, no one called to be helper,

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Speaker 1: and so you had this feminist perspective and this was

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Speaker 1: this is a direct consequence of second wave feminism that

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Speaker 1: was going on in the wider culture, and you saw

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Speaker 1: it having influence on evangelicalism, and you saw these doctrines

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Speaker 1: being shifted because of this. Now, what happened was was

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties, there was a group of people

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Speaker 1: who got together who realized, we need to we need

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Speaker 1: to have a robust articulation of what the Bible says

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Speaker 1: in the face of the second wave feminist error, like

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Speaker 1: what does the Bible say about these things? And so

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Speaker 1: two men in particular, but there were others, John Piper

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Speaker 1: and Wayne Gruden, came together and said we need to

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Speaker 1: pull together some people and put together a confessional standard

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Speaker 1: that reflects what the Bible teaches about these things in

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Speaker 1: the face of second wave feminist error. And that's where

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Speaker 1: the Danverse Statement came from. And it's called the Danver

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Speaker 1: Statement because they finished it in Danvers, Massachusetts. They just

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Speaker 1: named it after the place where they were. But that's

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Speaker 1: what it's called. And it articulates the doctrine that I

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Speaker 1: told you just moments ago. But that's why they needed

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Speaker 1: it. It was a response to second wave feminism.

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Speaker 3: We'll be right back after this short break. And why

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Speaker 3: not use the term biblical patriarchy?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that was considered at the time. You

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Speaker 1: can read all of the discussions. The reason that people

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Speaker 1: did not use the term patriarchy was because patriarchy. I

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Speaker 1: talk about this in the book in an appendix. Maybe

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Speaker 1: you don't agree with it, but here I have friends

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Speaker 1: that disagree with me about this. But the term patriarchy

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Speaker 1: was actually a term that was coined by feminists. So

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Speaker 1: the term patriarch is in the Bible, right, you see it,

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Speaker 1: look of accent elsewhere. But patriarch is a Bible word.

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Speaker 1: But the word patriarchy was the coinage of Kate Millet,

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Speaker 1: who was a second wave feminist in the nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 1: and she coined that term to refer to abuse and misogyny,

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Speaker 1: in other words, the illegitimate power and authority of men.

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Speaker 1: And so the word patriarchy and you can look go

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Speaker 1: look at the Google n gram viewer of the term patriarchy.

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Speaker 1: It'll take you all the way back into the fifteen

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Speaker 1: hundreds English works. In the fifteen hundreds. You don't see

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Speaker 1: the use of patriarchy go into any kind of like

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Speaker 1: vernacular usage until the nineteen sixties and seventies. And so

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Speaker 1: feminists were the ones who coined this term, and that's

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Speaker 1: been the dominant use of the term in our culture.

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Speaker 1: And so that's why the complementary and said, we don't

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Speaker 1: want to use a term like that.

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Speaker 3: Well, why couldn't we just take the word back because

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Speaker 3: the word from the feminists.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you said back. That would presume that the word

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Speaker 1: was ever in use amongst them, like in other words, nobody.

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Speaker 1: There were no Christians who were describing traditional gender roles

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Speaker 1: as patriarchy before the nineteen sixties and seventies. That's not

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Speaker 1: how the term was used. You would see a little

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Speaker 1: bit of the term. You would see there's sparse usage

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Speaker 1: of the term, and a lot of times it would

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Speaker 1: be used of an ecclesiastical contexts of like patriarchs and

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Speaker 1: their ruling, a patriarch ruling like a patriarchy in that sense,

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Speaker 1: but nothing like biblical gender roles. So but you know,

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Speaker 1: here I say this in the book, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of overlap between a robust complementarianism and what a lot

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Speaker 1: of the people who use that term are are arguing.

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Speaker 1: I do think it's a prudential question of what's the

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Speaker 1: best way to communicate to people what you're trying to say.

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Speaker 1: And I've landed that, you know, I don't think patriarchy

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Speaker 1: is the most useful. It could be more that if

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Speaker 1: they really wanted to reclaim the term, I said it too,

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Speaker 1: reclaim we never had it to begin with. If they

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Speaker 1: really wanted to claim the term, I think that the

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Speaker 1: best thing that they could do is write down a

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Speaker 1: doctrinal proposition, write down a confession of what it is

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Speaker 1: that would help. And so, as far as I know,

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Speaker 1: I've not seen them do that. There is no there

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Speaker 1: is no consensus statement on what they mean by biblical patriarchy.

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Speaker 1: And so you've got if you look at the world

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Speaker 1: of biblical patriarchy and you look at all the people

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Speaker 1: who use that term, you've got all the way you know,

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Speaker 1: people on one end who are just basically robust complementarians,

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Speaker 1: to the other end of wife's bankers, corporal punishment for wives,

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Speaker 1: umbrellas of authority, weird stuff that have nothing to do

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Speaker 1: with with scripture. I say, look, you could make a

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Speaker 1: lot more you'd have a lot more clarity for your

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Speaker 1: position if you would, you know, write it down and

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Speaker 1: so that everybody can scrutinize it and we can talk

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Speaker 1: about it, kind of like we did with the Danver statement.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, that's my reason why I gave you the

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Speaker 1: reasoning why the Originally they didn't use patriarchy, and I'm

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Speaker 1: giving you my reason now why I still prefer the

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Speaker 1: term complementarianism.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and before we get into the definition of egalitarianism,

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Speaker 3: I want you just mentioned the image of God. Male

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Speaker 3: and female were made in the image and likeness of God.

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Speaker 3: What is your definition of the image of God, because

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Speaker 3: I want to challenge you on that with I think

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Speaker 3: a better definition. But tell me what the definition is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So we're talking about Genesis chapter one, Genesis chapter two,

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Speaker 1: but especially Genesis chapter one. We're talking about male and

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Speaker 1: female are both created in the image of God. And

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Speaker 1: the term that you use there in Hebrew is a

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Speaker 1: term that means something like likeness or representation. That's what

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Speaker 1: image means. And what's happened over the This is a

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Speaker 1: long standing debate amongst theologians and Bible scholars as to

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Speaker 1: in what sense do human beings have the same likeness

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Speaker 1: and representation of God's nature? In other words, we're in

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Speaker 1: his image and likeness, we look like him, we resemble

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Speaker 1: him in some sense. In what sense? What is it?

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Speaker 1: And so you have different points of view on this.

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Speaker 1: The first point of view that I'll mention is what

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Speaker 1: we would call more of a substantive view, which means

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Speaker 1: there's some quality about the human being that is like God.

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Speaker 1: The most popular quality that you will see over the

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Speaker 1: centuries has been theologians have said, we've got reason, the

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Speaker 1: capacity for reason. I just started the Jungle.

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Speaker 3: Does an unborn child have the capacity for reason?

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Speaker 1: Yes, an undeveloped one, but yes, a capacity for it.

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Speaker 3: But an unborn child, yeah, has a capacity for reason.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So so I talk about this in the book

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Speaker 1: as well. But you have to you have to think

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Speaker 1: about the difference between act and potency, right, So in

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Speaker 1: other words, yeah, so you have to think about so

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Speaker 1: the potential for a thing, right, is still at the

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Speaker 1: essence of that thing, and so so a child does

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Speaker 1: have the potency for reason, right, and so so we

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Speaker 1: we the potential for it. So so yes, so if

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Speaker 1: you're taking that that substantive view, you would say, you know,

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Speaker 1: human beings are unique in this matter. I just started

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Speaker 1: the book, uh, the Jungle Book today by Rudyard Kipling,

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Speaker 1: and it's really fascinating. You know, the first story that

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Speaker 1: what the animals realize about Mowgli is is wisdom. Right,

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Speaker 1: there's this thing that makes him different from all of them.

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Speaker 1: And so that's a long standing Christian view, the substantive view.

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Speaker 1: But there's another view called the functional view, which says,

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Speaker 1: you know, what we have in common with God is

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Speaker 1: really what we do. And when you look at Genesis one,

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Speaker 1: it says, you know, they're creating God's image, but then

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Speaker 1: God tasks them right off the bat to rule into

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Speaker 1: rain on his behalf. And so if you rule in rain,

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Speaker 1: it's this function that we have in common with God

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Speaker 1: and as rulers and you know, reigners over creation. That's

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Speaker 1: the way we've image God. That's the functional view. And

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Speaker 1: then there's the relational view, which is really associated with contemporary,

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Speaker 1: more modern theologian called a guy named Carl Bart and

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Speaker 1: there have been some others who argue that it's male

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Speaker 1: and female in relation to one another that bear the

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Speaker 1: image of God. That third one I don't like because

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Speaker 1: I think it entails. Maybe some of its adherents would

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Speaker 1: deny this, but I think it entails that a male

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Speaker 1: by himself is not in the image of God, and

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Speaker 1: a female by herself isn't. I do think that an

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Speaker 1: individual female is in the image of God, and so

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Speaker 1: it is an individual male, and so it can't be

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Speaker 1: that they comprise the image only together. I think individual

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Speaker 1: human being Bearscott's image, so I happen to hold to

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Speaker 1: the structural view. I think complementarianism works with any number

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Speaker 1: could work with structural or functional views of the image.

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Speaker 1: It's not reliant upon a certain position of that. But

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Speaker 1: I talk about it a little bit in the book

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Speaker 1: because I think it's it's important.

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Speaker 3: I well, I really I don't know what you think

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Speaker 3: of Michael Heiser, but I really like his definition of

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Speaker 3: the imago day and uh. He says, it's it's a

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Speaker 3: It's neither of those options. It's none of those options.

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Speaker 3: It is a status God gives us. So because it's

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Speaker 3: a status that means the unborn it's a for According

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Speaker 3: to Michael Heiser, that's the only argument to be opposed

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Speaker 3: to abortion is because the unborn have that status of

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Speaker 3: being made in the image of God. No, it's not

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Speaker 3: a potential thing. It's a status. What do you think

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Speaker 3: about that?

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Speaker 1: I don't think that's it. I haven't read Michael Heiser's

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Speaker 1: view on this. I can't comment on it with I

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Speaker 1: can only go by what you're telling me here. But

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Speaker 1: what I am arguing though, does result in a status. Right,

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Speaker 1: So whatever if you define it as a certain substance

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Speaker 1: or a certain function, either one of those, the result

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Speaker 1: is a certain status as an image bearer that gives

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Speaker 1: you unique dignity. Right, and just by virtue of the

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Speaker 1: fact that you are of the species Homo sapiens. You

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Speaker 1: were created in the image of God and born unborn

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Speaker 1: or otherwise.

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Speaker 3: And what is the definition of egalitarianism?

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Speaker 1: So egalitarianism would be the evangelical counterpoint to complementarianism. Egalitarianism

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Speaker 1: is the view that men and women, they may have

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Speaker 1: different plumbing, but they're basically interchangeable in every sphere of life,

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Speaker 1: the church, home, and then you know, beyond those things.

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Speaker 1: And so within the home, leadership is like a jump ball, right,

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Speaker 1: whoever is faster and stronger, or however you mutually agree

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Speaker 1: to divvy up responsibilities. It's more of a mutualism type thing.

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Speaker 1: It's not an ordered structure of authority and submission. And

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Speaker 1: they would say the same thing. Within a church. There's

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Speaker 1: no role within the church that is defined according to gender.

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Speaker 1: So when Paul says I don't allow women to teach

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Speaker 1: or ex has authority over a man, it doesn't really

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Speaker 1: mean that within the church. Men and women are completely interchangeable.

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Speaker 1: A woman could be a pastor, she could be a

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Speaker 1: main preacher. Everything is equal. And they will look to

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Speaker 1: tax like Galatians three twenty eight. That's their magna carta,

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Speaker 1: that there's neither male nor female in Christ. We're all

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Speaker 1: one in Christ, and so that they view gender role

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Speaker 1: distinctions as a consequence of the fall and a consequence

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Speaker 1: of sin in the world world. And Jesus comes and

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Speaker 1: removes all of those, He removes the curse of the fall,

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Speaker 1: and so everybody is equal. There's no more gender roles,

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Speaker 1: there's no you know, ordered authority based on any kind

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Speaker 1: of sexual difference.

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Speaker 3: And what what denominations generally hold to the egalitarian view.

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Speaker 1: You'll see within there's different ways you can talk about this,

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Speaker 1: because the Egalitarians were at one point, like in the

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Speaker 1: late seventies, early eighties, I think maybe maybe it was

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Speaker 1: just into the seventies. They were originally a part of

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Speaker 1: a group that was united with more mainline denominations, which

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Speaker 1: are you and I would recognize now as the more

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Speaker 1: theologically liberal denominations. Yeah, we see USA and the Episcopal Church,

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Speaker 1: you know, all the people that are ordaining you know,

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Speaker 1: gay bishops and stuff and doing gay marriage. Those they

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Speaker 1: were the Originally the egalitarians were of one piece with them,

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Speaker 1: and they were all just sort of broadly Christian feminists.

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Speaker 1: But then it became clear that a lot of those

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Speaker 1: theologically liberal denominations were going to be affirming of LGBTQ issues.

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Speaker 1: The Evangelicals, who still wanted to have a feminist position

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Speaker 1: broke away, And so when they broke away from them,

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Speaker 1: they've kind of left those denominations behind. Those are still

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Speaker 1: functionally a galitarian, those old mainline denominations. But within evangelicalism

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Speaker 1: you had a group of people like a Rogier Nicole

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Speaker 1: and a Millard Erickson, and you could just name all

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Speaker 1: these theologians who wanted to hold to an errancy that

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Speaker 1: the Bible is perfect, doesn't have any errors in it,

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Speaker 1: but we've misunderstood what the Bible's been saying for two

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Speaker 1: thousand years on the way men and women relate to

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Speaker 1: each other. And so they came up with a lot

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Speaker 1: of different reinterpretations of traditional texts of scripture to support

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Speaker 1: their position. And so the egalitarians. You have evangelical a

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Speaker 1: galleonalitarians now who will say that they hold to an errancy,

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Speaker 1: but they're still holding to what's basically a feminist approach

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Speaker 1: to reading the scripture.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you you mentioned LGBTQ. You say in the

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Speaker 3: book that the path to affirming LGBTQ always goes through

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Speaker 3: egalitarianism first.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And that doesn't mean that every egalitarian becomes

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Speaker 1: affirming of LGBTQ. What it means is is that every

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Speaker 1: person who's a Christian who calls himself a Christian who

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Speaker 1: affirms LGBTQ at some point has become an egalitarian before that.

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Speaker 1: That's always the first domino to fall, because the way

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Speaker 1: you read the Scripture on these gender issues, you know,

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Speaker 1: complementary and egalitarian issues, is going to affect the way

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Speaker 1: you read scripture on those other issues. And it it

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Speaker 1: just they seem to be of a piece. And so

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Speaker 1: when you see a person moving on this issue, sometimes

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Speaker 1: it's followed by a later affirmation of LGBTQ. Not all

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Speaker 1: the time. You've had let's and there. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to misinform your listeners as if all egalitarians end up

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Speaker 1: affirming LGBTQ. Yeah, that's not the case. Roger and Nicole

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Speaker 1: never affirmed it, and he died an egalitarian. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: you could name a lot of people like that. I

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Speaker 1: will say, though their hermoneutic is unstable, it's not good,

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Speaker 1: it's an error, and it's it doesn't give health to

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Speaker 1: churches or to Christians individually.

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Speaker 3: But what about concern I mean Assemblies of God, charismatics

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Speaker 3: and pane I.

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Speaker 1: Left them out. Yeah, I never can they.

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Speaker 3: They're they're very conservative in all these ways, but for

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Speaker 3: some reason they're egalitarian. Why why is that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? So within this is a very interesting phenomenon within

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Speaker 1: North American evangelicalism. In some ways the Pentecostal denominations have

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Speaker 1: set sort of parallel with that. But it is true

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Speaker 1: that in like Assembly of Gods and other dominations like

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Speaker 1: that that are more charismatic, they have it's not because

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Speaker 1: they're moving left in their view of the Bible. Their

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Speaker 1: views tend to be shaped by a certain reading of

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Speaker 1: what's going on in the Book of Acts. And look

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Speaker 1: at Acts chapter two, and it says your sons and

429
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: daughters will prophesy, Peter says in his sermon there right

430
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: after the Holy Spirit fell at Pentecost, And so charismatics

431
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 1: kind of have this view of, well, look what was

432
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: going on right there at the beginning, sons and daughters

433
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 1: were prophesying. Therefore, this is a totally different thing from

434
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 1: what was happening in the Old Testament. And men and

435
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 1: women are now both engaged in these spiritual acts, and

436
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 1: so of course men and women are equal in the Church. Now,

437
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 1: I don't think that your first that you know, your

438
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 1: Assembly of God folks are softening in their stance on scripture.

439
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,199
Speaker 1: So they're way different. In other words, they're getting to

440
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 1: an egalitarian position, way different than your people who were

441
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: you know, pc USA people back in the seventies. They

442
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 1: were losing their trust in scripture, and a lot of

443
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 1: them would say, yeah, I know what Paul says. He

444
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: says that women have certain limitations in ministry. But you know,

445
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: we think Paul was wrong. You're simply a God person

446
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 1: is never going to say that. They're never going to

447
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 1: say that some part of the Bible was wrong. They're

448
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: just going to reinterpret those texts to fit a more

449
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 1: galitarian framework. But they were coming. You know, those reinterpretations

450
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 1: have been out there. They've been there for decades now.

451
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: They're basically a twentieth century phenomenon because they didn't really

452
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: exist before that. And so you know, some people have

453
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: criticized you know, complementarianism is a new doctrine. It was

454
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: invented by baby boomers in the nineteen eighties. No, it wasn't.

455
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: This is the traditional doctrine, but it was given a

456
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 1: name but in the face of a new challenge that

457
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: was happening in the in the midst of the second

458
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: wave feminism rollout, and so but all that's to say,

459
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:46,159
Speaker 1: the challenge was a rather new one, right, It's not

460
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,880
Speaker 1: like these interpretations that the egalitarians have come up with

461
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: were ancient. Okay, nobody read these ts. I mean, just

462
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 1: go read Thomas Aquinas, go read John Calvin. They're not

463
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 1: reading the text like egalitarian's Okay, I mean, that's not

464
00:26:58,160 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: what's going on there.

465
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 3: What's different? You mentioned soft complementarianism. What is hard complementarianism?

466
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:10,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean these terms are a little bit fluid.

467
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 1: People don't use the same terminology. So some people use

468
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: the phrase soft complementarianism, narrow complementarianism. What was the other one?

469
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: There was another one there. Other people use the term

470
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 1: hard complimentary for another the opposite view, hard or broad complementarianism.

471
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: And basically what you're talking about is the differences between

472
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: people who want to be minimally complementarian and they want

473
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 1: to look at what the Bible says and you know,

474
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 1: obey the letter of the law, but then push as

475
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 1: far as they can into whatever exceptions they can find.

476
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 1: So your softness of complementarians will say, yeah, I see,

477
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: and I know there's headship in the Bible. I know

478
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: the office of pastor is limited to men, but we're

479
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 1: still going to have women pre and maybe pastoring is

480
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: just a gift. So maybe it's just eldering slimited to men,

481
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: but women could be pastors because it's just a gift,

482
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,159
Speaker 1: and so we'll label women pastors. That's going on in

483
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: a lot of churches today. That would be your soft

484
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: complimentarian kind of you. They're emily, you know, what's the

485
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: letter of the law, and I just want to stay

486
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: within that. And then but there's not much law, you know,

487
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: there's not not much there. The limitations and the specifications

488
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 1: are very you know, minimal. Your hard complementarians or your

489
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: broad complementarians are the ones who say no, no, no, wait, wait, male,

490
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:39,959
Speaker 1: the Bible has a lot more to say than that,

491
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: and also nature has a lot more to say than that.

492
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: If you look at the biblical commands. The biblical commands

493
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: are rooted in God's design and creation and how he

494
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: made us as male and female. That the way he

495
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: made us is going to have implications for wherever you

496
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: find male in females that means in the home, and

497
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: then that you're urge and beyond. And so your hard

498
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: complementarians are are going to have a more thorough going

499
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: view of things. They're not going to be looking for loopholes.

500
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: They're going to be, you know, gladly embracing God's unique

501
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: design and you know, encouraging men and women to embrace

502
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 1: that that design. So for me, that's where I see

503
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 1: it now. I use a distinction that Joe Rigney came

504
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: up with where he.

505
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 3: Talks about versus ideological.

506
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, natural versus ideological, which means I think he's correct

507
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 1: about that. I think it's the right observation because there

508
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,959
Speaker 1: are some people who are very you know, comfortable with

509
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: what the Bible and with what nature reveals about our

510
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: design as male and female, and that it entails certain

511
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: role distinctions. And so you know, if if there's a

512
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: in the middle of the night, some intruder breaks through

513
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: our front door, and I'm up in bed with my

514
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: wife and the kids are in bed. You know, I

515
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: don't look over to my wife and say, why don't

516
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: you go see about that? Now. There's not a Bible

517
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 1: verse that says when the intruder comes in, the husband

518
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: shall go down. There's not a Bible verse that says that.

519
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: But there is in the Bible and in nature a

520
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: revelation of distinction between male and female, which has entailments

521
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: for what I do in that moment. And in that moment,

522
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: I've got to go down and meet that threat because

523
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: I'm the one that God has designed with a bigger

524
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: bone mass, more muscle mass, quicker, faster, stronger than my wife.

525
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: I'm more designed to meet that threat, and that gives

526
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 1: me the responsibility to go down and to meet that threat. Well,

527
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: guess what those differences are downstream from our sex to nature.

528
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,959
Speaker 1: I will male puberty. My wife didn't, and it produced

529
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: a different being. Right. And so God's commands and his

530
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: expectations are fitting with nature, not contrary to it. And

531
00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: so natural complementarians, or when I'm arguing for is mere

532
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 1: complementarianism recognizes that God's design is a good thing, and

533
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: it has implications for all of life. Soft complementarians tend

534
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: to not, I don't want to print paint with two

535
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: broad a bush. But they tend not to see that.

536
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: They tend not to press into that, and many of

537
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: them will resist what, you know, philosophers call gender essentialism,

538
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,479
Speaker 1: as if there is some kind of innate difference between

539
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: male and female that produces the different roles that we

540
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: inhabit in the church and the home and the rest

541
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: of society. Soft complimentarians tend to push against that.

542
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 3: Yes, and okay, in Genesis two, according to Genesis too,

543
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 3: what is man's vocation? And then what is the woman's vocation?

544
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, so in Genesis two, you've got one man, you've

545
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,479
Speaker 1: got one woman. Everything's perfect, everything's good, And you've got

546
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: a marriage. And so for this cause, and man shall

547
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: leave his father and mother cleave to his wife, and

548
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: too shall become one flesh. So you get that statement

549
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: there from Moses in Genesis two twenty four. Okay, this

550
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,959
Speaker 1: is the first marriage, and all other marriages are supposed

551
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 1: to be patterned after this. What do you have in

552
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: that first marriage? Well, you've got, first of all, the

553
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 1: man created first. God gives a command to Adam to

554
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: cultivate and to keep the garden. Now, to keep the

555
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: garden means what it means, guard it, right, he has

556
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: a vocation of protection that's given to him before the

557
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: woman even gets there. So he's designed for this, this

558
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: this aptitude of protecting. He's also to cultivate the ground,

559
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: which I think is even before the woman is there.

560
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: It's a gesturing towards a provision, right, because their provision

561
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: for food and everything's going to come up from the ground.

562
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 1: And then you see that that the man is formed

563
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: first and that that God gives him a vocation of

564
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: headship leadership with respect to his wife, and that becomes

565
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: I think it's clear in Genesis too. I can go

566
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 1: through the reasons for that if you want, but it's

567
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: certainly clear in the New Testament. The New Testament writers

568
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: are reading the order of Creation as teaching Adam's authority

569
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: over his wife, and that all marriages are supposed to

570
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: be like that. He's the authority in the relationship, he's

571
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: the appointed leader. So the man's vocation from the jump

572
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: from creation was leadership and protection and provision. He was

573
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: designed for that. That characterized the first marriage. It's supposed

574
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: to be characterizing all marriages that follow. And then similarly

575
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: with with Eve, she was created as a helper. It

576
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: says she was an aser, right, and so an aser connecto.

577
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: So she is this helper with respect to Adam's headship

578
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: within the garden. And so she and she's also this

579
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: nurturer one who's going to be the mother of all

580
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: the living, meaning that she is going to be the

581
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 1: one who bears children. Her vocation is going to be

582
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 1: she's going to she's going to be facing the home,

583
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: and the husband's going to be facing outside of the home.

584
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: In terms of their their main vocation. He is going

585
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: to work the ground, she is going to work the home.

586
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:10,479
Speaker 1: Now they're complementary, these jobs go together, but they're different, right.

587
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: And so you see this helping and nurturing vocation given

588
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 1: to the woman. You see this leadership, protection and provision

589
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 1: given to the man.

590
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. And then you say that egalitarians have long pointed

591
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 3: to Genesis three sixteen this is post fall as evidence

592
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 3: that husbandly headship and wife submission are a consequence of

593
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 3: the fall and of sin.

594
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, and really this is very important for egalitarians.

595
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: Egalitarians to a man believe that male and female role

596
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: distinctions or consequence of or headship in particular is a

597
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 1: consequence of the fall. And they're reading Genesis three sixteen,

598
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: where after the man and the woman sin, God delivers

599
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,919
Speaker 1: these curses, and to the woman he said, I will

600
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: greatly multiply your pain and childbirth. In pain, you shall

601
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: bring forth children. Yet your desire shall be for your husband,

602
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,240
Speaker 1: and he shall rule over you. And so they're reading

603
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 1: that and they say, see, this is a part of

604
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,959
Speaker 1: the curse, the fact that the husband is ruling over

605
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 1: the wife. And this is one of the things that

606
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 1: Jesus comes to undo, is the curse. It's right there

607
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 1: in the curse, the husband's ruling. The problem with that

608
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 1: point of view is that you already have male headship

609
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: before sin and before the curse. If you're reading Genesis

610
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 1: too carefully, you can tell that the author is clearly

611
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: showing you that the man is supposed to be the

612
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: head in this relationship. And you can see it in

613
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 1: a number of different ways. But the big one is

614
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 1: the one I mentioned earlier. It's the order of creation.

615
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 1: The man is made first, and then the woman is

616
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 1: made second from the man. Every ancient person reading this

617
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 1: the Book of Genesis originally is going to recognize that

618
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: there's a principle of primogenitor in that. Now, this is

619
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 1: one of those ten dollars words, right, primogenitor first born.

620
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 1: But you know, within human history we use the term

621
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 1: primogenitor to refer to the fact there are certain privileges

622
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: and responsibilities that come with being the first born, so

623
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: usually privileges of inheritance, but then also privileges of leadership.

624
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 1: That is totally the case in the Book of Genesis.

625
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: When you read the rest of the Book of Genesis,

626
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: primogenitor is a thing. It is all over the place.

627
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 1: In fact, whenever primogenitor gets challenged, you have to explain why.

628
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 1: So you remember, you know Jacob and Esau right, who

629
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: was the older brother there who had the primogeniture responsibility

630
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 1: for the inheritance and leadership. Well, it was a thought

631
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: he was first, but we read the story and we

632
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,439
Speaker 1: find out he sold his birthright right. In other words,

633
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 1: you have to explain how is it that Jacob is

634
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,280
Speaker 1: going to become the promised child. It's going to happen

635
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 1: because this primogeniture gets reversed. When you think about the

636
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,879
Speaker 1: twelve Tribes of Israel, the twelve tribes of Israel. Who

637
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 1: was the first son, Ruben? Who were the second two sons,

638
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 1: Simeon and Levi Rubin. You know, when they first took Joseph,

639
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: the brothers wanted to kill him. Ruben says, I can't

640
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 1: do that. I can't like I'm responsible to my father.

641
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: I'm the leader here. Ruben intervenes saves Joseph. They end

642
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 1: up selling him into slavery instead of killing him. But Ruben,

643
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: it's very clear, as the leader of his brothers. Later though,

644
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: Ruben disqualifies himself from the task, from the leadership role

645
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: because he goes up to his father's concubine. And in

646
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 1: Genesis forty nine you can read where Moses explains that

647
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 1: Ruben's not going to be the leader because he did

648
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 1: that Simon and Levi the leadership should have fallen to

649
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 1: them in succession. But both of those guys did this

650
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: thing where they tricked to Shechem, and you know, dishonored

651
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 1: their father, and so they were set aside. And so

652
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: you go Ruben, sime and Levi. Then who's that fourth son.

653
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,359
Speaker 1: It's Judah. You see the promise there in Genesis where

654
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: it says the scepter shall not depart from Judah nor

655
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 1: the ruler staff from between his feet, and Judah is

656
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: the kingly tribe, and Judah rules over his brothers from

657
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: then on. And then of course we get King David

658
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: from Judah, and we get Jesus from Judah. But all

659
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 1: of that is in Genesis. Now, if you're reading Genesis,

660
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 1: you're reading about primogenitor and the explanations for why primogenitor

661
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 1: will devolve to somebody else if they get disqualified. But

662
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: you have to have whole narratives to explain why primogeniture

663
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: is being subverted. And all I'm saying is is that

664
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: when original readers read this, they're not reading it like

665
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: you and I do. They're reading it like ancient people.

666
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: And what they read was, oh, wow, Adam was formed first,

667
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 1: and that happened in chapter two, and so there's a

668
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 1: headship there. You also see it in the fact that

669
00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 1: Adam is naming everything, including the woman, and so he

670
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 1: names all of the animals, and God had told him

671
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 1: he was going to rule over those animals. Well, a

672
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 1: part of that ruling function was naming. The woman is

673
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 1: formed from his side, and it says she's going to

674
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 1: be called Eshah woman because she was taken from ish Man.

675
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: And even her name is derivative of his own name

676
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 1: is Shah comes from esh, which is the word for

677
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 1: male or man. So so you have the order of creation,

678
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: you have the naming that's going on, that's demonstrating Adam's leadership.

679
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: And then when you see the order of temptation, when

680
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 1: Satan does come into the picture, who does he go

681
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 1: to first. He's coming in the form of a serpent,

682
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: and he goes to the woman first, and then the

683
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: woman subverts the man, and then they boast evade God.

684
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: And so even in the way that the temptation occurs,

685
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 1: you can tell Satan is trying to take what was

686
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: right side up and turn it upside down. It was

687
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 1: supposed to be, you know, God creating man, He gave

688
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,320
Speaker 1: him a command, the man gave the command to his wife,

689
00:39:58,320 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 1: and then they both were to be ruling over the

690
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 1: pa of the ground. Now you've got with after the

691
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 1: temptation of the serpent, You've got the serpent at the

692
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: top dictating to the woman, who's then dictating to the man,

693
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 1: and then they're both evading God. So even the order

694
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 1: of temptation is showing you a subversion of the original

695
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: order of creation, so that's also testifying to this. So

696
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 1: I think the egalitarians are wrong to say that male headship,

697
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 1: male leadership, and marriage and to the church that that's somehow,

698
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: you know, a consequence of sin, that that the cross eradicates. No,

699
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 1: it's there in chapter two and the careful, careful readers

700
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 1: of scripture, we're going to see it there.

701
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 3: And you mentioned the order of accountability talk about that,

702
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 3: how God holds Adam accountable for all?

703
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, when when when Adam comes in, when God comes

704
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 1: looking for Adam and Eve, it says there, it says

705
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: God called to the man and said to him, where

706
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 1: are you? Singular? It's singular in Hebrew. So they both sinned.

707
00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: The woman was the first one to take a bite.

708
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: And who's God coming to holding it accountable for this?

709
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: He's holding the man accountable. Now. The reason, I think

710
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 1: is because he had put the man in charge of

711
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 1: the garden and had told him to guard the garden.

712
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 1: And what did Adam just do? Well, it says when

713
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 1: she took the fruit, she took a bite and then

714
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 1: she gave it to her husband who was with her.

715
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: So apparently Adam is there all along, not guarding the

716
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: garden while this serpent comes in and subverts his wife

717
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 1: subverts the garden. And so before Eve takes a bite,

718
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 1: I think Adam is sinning. I think it's a failure

719
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 1: of headship. And so when you get to Romans five

720
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 1: and you see that, you know, the apostle Paul says

721
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: that all sin traces back to Adam, and Adam we

722
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 1: all die, and from Adam death has spread to all men.

723
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 1: I think Adam was the first one to fall, and

724
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: it was a failure of headship. His wife was the

725
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: first to take a bite, but he was the first

726
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 1: one to fail to guard the garden and to guard

727
00:41:59,200 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: his wife.

728
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then Christ is the new atom in the

729
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 3: New Testament. So there's that direct kind of line. So

730
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 3: let's look at one of the passages you tackle. I

731
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 3: think five passages are four? Uh, and let's see you wait, one, two, three, four, five, No, four, Sorry,

732
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 3: but let's just look at a couple and we're gonna

733
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:30,880
Speaker 3: start with Ephesians five. Let me see if I can

734
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 3: bring it up here. So I do this there it

735
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 3: is okay. So I just want you to I'm gonna

736
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 3: read this out loud, and then I want you to

737
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,240
Speaker 3: just make whatever comments you want to make on whatever versus.

738
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 3: It says. Wives submit to your own husbands as to

739
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 3: the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife.

740
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 3: Even as Christ is the head of the Church, his body,

741
00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 3: and his is himself, It's savior. Now is the true

742
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 3: submits to Christ. So also wives should submit in everything

743
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 3: to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved

744
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 3: the Church and gave himself up for her, that he

745
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 3: might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of

746
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 3: water and with the word, so that he might present

747
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 3: the Church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle,

748
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,319
Speaker 3: or any such thing, that she might be holy and

749
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 3: without blemish. In the same way, husbands should love their

750
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 3: wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife

751
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 3: his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his

752
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 3: own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes that, just as Christ

753
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 3: does the Church, because we are members of His body. Therefore,

754
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 3: a man shall leave his father and mother and hold

755
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 3: faster his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.

756
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 3: And this is a key verse here. This mystery is profound,

757
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 3: and I am saying that it refers to Christ in

758
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 3: the church. However, let each one of you you love

759
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 3: his wife as himself, and let the wife see that

760
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 3: she respects her husband. Oh, where do you want to

761
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 3: take it from there?

762
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: But yeah, how do you how.

763
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 3: Can you use this? This is this passage to for

764
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 3: your argument.

765
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, the part that you paused on is is probably

766
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 1: the most important part here, because what you have is

767
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 1: the apostle Paul telling you what the nature of marriage is.

768
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 1: And the apostle Paul is telling you, I'm taking my

769
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,839
Speaker 1: understanding of marriage from the Old Testament, from Genesis one,

770
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 1: and in particular Genesis two, because he quotes Genesis two

771
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: twenty four in verse thirty one, he says, for this

772
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 1: cause a man shall leave his father and mother and

773
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:35,879
Speaker 1: shall leave to his wife, and the two shall become

774
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 1: one flesh. So everything that Paul just said about wives

775
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 1: submitting to their husband's husbands being the head of their wives,

776
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 1: those particular relations that God has designed for marriage, Paul

777
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: saying it's been that way from the beginning. He's not

778
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: inventing some new marriage in norms. He's telling you as

779
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:57,320
Speaker 1: an apostle receiving revelation from the Holy Spirit. He's telling

780
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 1: all the churches this is what marriage is. And not

781
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: only that, he's saying that this is what all marriages

782
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: are supposed to be, because he quotes Genesis two twenty

783
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 1: four and verse thirty one, and then in verse thirty

784
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,359
Speaker 1: two he says, this mystery is great now. That term

785
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 1: mystery mysterion is it's a little bit. They use it

786
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 1: differently in Greek than we think of it in English.

787
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: In English, when we think of a mystery, we think

788
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:25,240
Speaker 1: of something that's currently hidden or unclear. The way Paul

789
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,359
Speaker 1: uses the word mystery throughout his writings is is it

790
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 1: means something that was once unclear under the Old Covenant

791
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: or before the Gospel, but has now been made clear

792
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 1: by the Gospel by the coming of Christ. So what

793
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: he's saying is, okay, this thing. We've had marriage all

794
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 1: along for this cause of man shall leave his father

795
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 1: and brothers shall clean to his wife. We've had marriage.

796
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: That's Genesis too, But he says this mystery there is

797
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 1: something about marriage that wasn't all the way clear, but

798
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 1: came crystal clear after Jesus came. And he says, I'm

799
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: talking about Christ in the church, which means the purpose

800
00:45:57,560 --> 00:45:59,800
Speaker 1: of marriage from the very start, not just in the

801
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,720
Speaker 1: New Covenant. In the Old Covenant, the purpose of marriage

802
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 1: was to be a little icon of the Gospel. It

803
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 1: was meant to be this little drama that plays out

804
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: the way that Christ relates to his church, the way

805
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: that Jesus relates to his bride, which is the Church.

806
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,320
Speaker 1: And Jesus has real authority over his bride and loves

807
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: her and cares for her and protects her right He

808
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: leads and protects and provides like a good shepherd does

809
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: his bride, and his bride submits to him. Paul is

810
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 1: saying that all marriages, like anybody listening to this, your

811
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 1: marriage exists to display that. And to the degree that

812
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 1: your marriage doesn't do that, you're falling short of the

813
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: glory of God. Because the glory of God in your

814
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: marriage is how much you attest to the truthfulness of

815
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 1: Christ's love for his Church. And so this is why

816
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 1: marriage and male female relations, and particularly in marriage are

817
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 1: not a sidebar in scripture. They're a part of the

818
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,479
Speaker 1: essence of it. And if you get this wrongly saying

819
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,799
Speaker 1: something blasphemous about the gospel.

820
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, and maybe we should look at first Timothy, before

821
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:11,839
Speaker 3: I asked this question about second order doctrine. But let's

822
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 3: look at first Timothy. Now, ah, where is it? Oh, gosh,

823
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:24,400
Speaker 3: do I have it? Yeah? Uh is this? Yes, let

824
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 3: a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not

825
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 3: permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over

826
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 3: a man. Rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam

827
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 3: was form first and Eve, and Adam was not deceived.

828
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 3: But the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet

829
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 3: she she will be saved through child bearing if they

830
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,760
Speaker 3: continue in the faith in love and holiness with self control.

831
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 3: So comment on this passage and the meaning of this passage,

832
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 3: And then I want to ask you why this is

833
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 3: a second order doctorate rather than a first order doctrine

834
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 3: in terms of complimentarianism.

835
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 1: Sure, let me just zero in there on kind of

836
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 1: the main part of it. Probably Verse twelve is one

837
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 1: of the most controversial verses in all of Scripture, especially

838
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 1: in the twentieth century. Not before the twentieth century, but

839
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:16,919
Speaker 1: since then, been so much written about it. I don't

840
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 1: think it's that difficult to understand, though, it only becomes

841
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:24,720
Speaker 1: difficult if you've got I think a sort of feminist

842
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 1: sensibility that you need to accommodate to Paul here is saying,

843
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 1: I don't allow women to teach or exercise authority over

844
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:33,959
Speaker 1: a man. Now, let me talk about what he's saying.

845
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 1: What he's not saying. When he's talking about teaching, he's

846
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 1: not talking about like a woman can't give information to

847
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 1: a man. That's not what he's talking about. Teaching is

848
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 1: a very specific word in the pastoral Epistles did Osco,

849
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 1: and it refers to the transmission of the apostolic deposit

850
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 1: And when you think, the way that they use the

851
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: word teaching, in my view, is kind of like you

852
00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 1: and I use the word preaching. Where you go to

853
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 1: church and you hear a pastor read a verse. He

854
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:05,840
Speaker 1: explains what the verse means, and then what does he do.

855
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 1: He commands you to obey it, and he prohibits you

856
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 1: from disobeying it. In other words, preaching is done in

857
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 1: the imperative mood. You look over at chapter four, Paul

858
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 1: talks to Timothy and he says, you have to admonish exhort.

859
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 1: In other words, when you do teaching in the context

860
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: of the pastoral epistles, it's done in the imperative mood. Right,

861
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 1: It's not just a data download, and it has to

862
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:35,800
Speaker 1: do with specifically teaching the Christian faith, teaching the true

863
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 1: Christian verity as it were. And so he says, I

864
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 1: don't allow women to do that. I don't allow her

865
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 1: to teach or to exercise authority. Now, there are some

866
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 1: soft complementarians and some egalitarians who say that Paul is

867
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 1: not prohibiting two things here, teaching and exercising authority. They

868
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 1: say he's prohibiting one thing, teaching with authority, or they'll

869
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 1: take that word for authority negative and say teaching with

870
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 1: the intent to dominate. And what they do there is

871
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:07,799
Speaker 1: they're saying Paul's not prohibiting women from doing this altogether.

872
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:11,800
Speaker 1: He's had prohibited them from teaching altogether. He just prohibits

873
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:13,920
Speaker 1: them from a certain kind of teaching, either teaching in

874
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 1: a domineering way or teaching as an elder. So there

875
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,800
Speaker 1: are some soft complementarians like Kathy Keller. In her book Jesus,

876
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 1: Justice and Gender Roles, she makes the case that Jesus is,

877
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 1: you know, Paul's only arguing for saying women can't teach

878
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 1: with authority, which means they can't teach as an elder

879
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 1: as long as they're not an elder. They can teach men, so.

880
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:37,800
Speaker 3: They can preach on they can teach on Sunday morning

881
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 3: at church.

882
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:41,359
Speaker 1: I don't know if she would take that particular view,

883
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 1: but those who follow her view have taken that position.

884
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: Because there are many churches today. This is one of

885
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 1: has been a big controversial thing in my denomination because

886
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 1: you know, the Kathy Keller review was and is in

887
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 1: that book, whatever an unordained man can do, a woman

888
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 1: can do. And so if you have a man preaching

889
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:06,720
Speaker 1: your church who's a guest preacher, and he's not ordained

890
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:09,360
Speaker 1: by that church, then then a woman could do that.

891
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:11,399
Speaker 1: And so you've seen in my denomination that there's been

892
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: a small number of churches that have been doing that,

893
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 1: and they'll have a woman come and preach on different occasions,

894
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 1: sometimes more regularly, and they'll say and they'll still label

895
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:25,959
Speaker 1: that complementarian. What I'm arguing is that you've misunderstood the text.

896
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 1: And here's the thing. Before you can have a right

897
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 1: application of the text, you have to finite the right interpretation,

898
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 1: and they just have the wrong interpretation. Paul's not prohibiting

899
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 1: one thing a certain kind of teaching. He's prohibiting two things,

900
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 1: teaching and exercising authority, both of which are functions of

901
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 1: the elder. But there are functions that sometimes elders can

902
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 1: delegate to qualified men, but Pulsing, you can't do that

903
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 1: with the women and so so. Yeah, so Paul's, you know,

904
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: prohibiting these two things. But egalitarians have ways of tweaking

905
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 1: this first to make it to where it doesn't mean

906
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 1: I don't allow women to teach ours authority, but I

907
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 1: do allow women to teach in our size authority. And

908
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 1: so they get around this verse through a number of

909
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 1: different means.

910
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 3: Yeah. So, and in this passage in one Timothy two,

911
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 3: Paul ties this whole thing into the creation ordinance. Right,

912
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:23,920
Speaker 3: for Adam was form first, then Eve, and Adam was

913
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:27,399
Speaker 3: not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

914
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:31,360
Speaker 3: So it's not a cultural thing. So my question to

915
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 3: you is, why is this, Why is this complementarianism? Why

916
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 3: is it a second order doctrine rather than a first

917
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,800
Speaker 3: order doctrine, because Paul clearly in this passage it's clearly

918
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 3: to me a first order doctrine.

919
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 1: Right. Well, the question is we've been influenced.

920
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:51,320
Speaker 3: By feminist too much. You've been swimming in feminist waters

921
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 3: for for forty years or many years.

922
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 1: I mean, unless you're unless you're making the I don't

923
00:52:57,239 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 1: believe this. Maybe you do, but I don't think all

924
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 1: again Palitarians are lost and no, no, no, So what

925
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:07,399
Speaker 1: a first order doctrine is is that if you get

926
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 1: this doctrine wrong, you are not a Christian, like the

927
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 1: deity of Christ, the Trinity, substitutionary atonement of Christ. I

928
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 1: can go through any number of first order doctrines like

929
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,239
Speaker 1: once you deny this. I'm not saying you have to

930
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 1: understand everything perfectly when you become a Christian, but if

931
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 1: you get to the point where you're in a settled

932
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 1: disposition that this doctrine is wrong, like the substitutionary atonement

933
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 1: of Christ, if you think that you're not a Christian,

934
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 1: you've rejected the faith. Now, there are other categories of

935
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 1: There are other doctrines though, that are seriously unhelpful and

936
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:44,040
Speaker 1: unhealthy to the church and can undermine faithfulness. But a

937
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:46,880
Speaker 1: person could be an error on it and still be

938
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 1: a Christian. That's what we would define as a secondary doctrine,

939
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:54,440
Speaker 1: a tertiary doctrine. And so the secretary doctrines are what

940
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:59,279
Speaker 1: divide denominations from denominations. So you know, I have many

941
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 1: good friends who are paido Baptists. They baptized babies. I'm

942
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:05,439
Speaker 1: a Baptist. I think they're wrong about that. I think

943
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 1: it's not been good in the history of the Christian Church,

944
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:10,719
Speaker 1: you know, So we can go into that that's a

945
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 1: secondary difference, because I do believe that they still have

946
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:20,320
Speaker 1: the Gospel right. A tertiary difference would be a difference

947
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 1: over an interpretation in scripture that it really shouldn't divide

948
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:26,799
Speaker 1: you even from somebody in your own church. You can

949
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:30,280
Speaker 1: still do church together. So a secondary doctrine by nature

950
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:33,600
Speaker 1: is well, it doesn't mean you're not necessarily a Christian,

951
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 1: but you're not gonna be able to do church with

952
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 1: somebody who has a difference with you on this issue.

953
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 1: And certainly the issue of complementarianism egalitarianism falls into that category,

954
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 1: just like it does with baptism, because you're either going

955
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 1: to have female pastors or not. There's not an in

956
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 1: between on that. You're either going to do that or not,

957
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:56,279
Speaker 1: and you can't have a both. And you're either going

958
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 1: to have women preaching from the pulpit or not, and

959
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:01,799
Speaker 1: there's not a both and into there. And so you know,

960
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 1: I think that egalitarianism is more dangerous than my differences

961
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 1: with people over baptism. And the reason I say that

962
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 1: is because you know, with my brothers and sisters who

963
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 1: are Presbyterians and Anglicans, Evangelical Anglicans, they otherwise have a

964
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:25,319
Speaker 1: pretty good track record of faithfulness, even though I think

965
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 1: they're wrong on that point on baptism. The same cannot

966
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 1: be said for a galitarian hermeneutics and a galitarian teaching.

967
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:36,440
Speaker 1: They don't have a wonderful track record. It's often a

968
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 1: trajectory towards greater modes of unfaithfulness, which do implicate first

969
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 1: order doctrines like LGBTQ affirmation, which we talked about at

970
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:49,319
Speaker 1: the beginning of this. So I've always made the caveat. Yes,

971
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 1: I think it's a secondary issue, but do not think

972
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 1: when I say secondary issue that it doesn't matter. It

973
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,760
Speaker 1: does matter, and sometimes it can implicate first order issues,

974
00:55:59,200 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 1: especially want.

975
00:55:59,880 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 3: To Yeah, that makes sense. And now in first we

976
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:06,400
Speaker 3: don't have that much time to get into First Corinthians eleven,

977
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 3: but just can you just briefly kind of talk about

978
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:12,319
Speaker 3: head coverings and because this is a mystery to so

979
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:17,319
Speaker 3: to so many people. Uh what what's the why is?

980
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,840
Speaker 3: Why does not that not pertaining to us today? The

981
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 3: head coverings.

982
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 1: Beg and how much time do we have here? I'm

983
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:30,720
Speaker 1: sorry to wrap up. Can you tell me about head coverings?

984
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:34,440
Speaker 3: I know, I'm sorry.

985
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 1: I'm happy to talk about it. Hey, but it's your podcast, man,

986
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:41,839
Speaker 1: I may go on. So I think Paul's main point

987
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 1: here is actually verse three and then what comes after

988
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:46,320
Speaker 1: verse three with the head.

989
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:49,719
Speaker 3: Already just but what I want you to understand that

990
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:52,920
Speaker 3: the head of every man is is Christ, and the

991
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:55,239
Speaker 3: head of a wife is her husband, and the head

992
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:56,279
Speaker 3: of Christ is God.

993
00:56:57,160 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 1: That's correct, That's correct. And so this is where you

994
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:04,400
Speaker 1: have Paul talking about this relationship called headship. So this

995
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:07,799
Speaker 1: is not a word that the complimentarians. Man, this is

996
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:11,320
Speaker 1: Paul's language. He calls this relation between husband and wife.

997
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:13,879
Speaker 1: He says husband is the head. We saw that also

998
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 1: in Ephesians, right, the husband is the head of the wife.

999
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 1: Egalitarians want to say that that Greek word kefalai doesn't

1000
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 1: mean head in terms of authority. It means source. So

1001
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:29,680
Speaker 1: the husband is the source of the wife, and that

1002
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 1: Eve was taken from Adam's side, right, and Christ is

1003
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 1: the source of the man in the sense that Christ

1004
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 1: created man, and God is the source of Christ and

1005
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 1: the sense that either God sent Christ into the world

1006
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 1: the incarnation or eternal generation, he's eternally begotten. So they

1007
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 1: want to take this all to mean nothing about authority

1008
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 1: but just meaning source. Okay, that's wrong because there's no

1009
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 1: evidence that kethalier ever means source without authority anywhere in

1010
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 1: Greek literature. We can talk about that, but the word

1011
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:05,720
Speaker 1: kefala means headship is referring to authority. So Paul is

1012
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 1: establishing there in verse three that the husband is the

1013
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 1: head of the wife. That has implications for how you're

1014
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 1: going to do worship at this point, because it can't

1015
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 1: it can't be that you go home and the husband's

1016
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 1: the head of the wife, but then you come to

1017
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 1: church and sometimes the wife is the head of the

1018
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 1: husband because she's the one in an authoritative ministry role

1019
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 1: over the husband, or he's presenting herself in a way

1020
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 1: that's not clearly deferential to headship. I think the head coverings.

1021
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:36,400
Speaker 1: And then also he talks about relative hair length here

1022
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 1: or having to do with whether or not you're demonstrating headship,

1023
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:44,720
Speaker 1: whether or not you're honoring headship. And so, you know,

1024
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 1: this is a controversial passage because number one, there's disputes

1025
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 1: about what even what the head coverings even are. And

1026
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 1: in my own life in the last ten years, I've

1027
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:55,800
Speaker 1: changed my view on this. I thought the head covering

1028
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 1: for years and years and years was referring to the

1029
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 1: woman's hair, and that's a a long standing view out

1030
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:02,880
Speaker 1: there that the head covering it's a it's a very

1031
00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:06,240
Speaker 1: unusual Greek word, but some people view the head covering

1032
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:07,920
Speaker 1: is a woman's hair and the way she wears it

1033
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 1: up in a certain way, which would relate to the

1034
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:13,800
Speaker 1: hair length thing that happens later in the passage. I've

1035
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 1: since left that view. I think I think he actually

1036
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:19,120
Speaker 1: is talking about some article or garment of clothing that

1037
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 1: goes on the woman's head. And there were certain things

1038
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 1: that were signaled by whether or not a woman was

1039
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:31,160
Speaker 1: wearing that, and one of them was first of all, femininity, femininity,

1040
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:34,720
Speaker 1: and secondly was whether or not if you didn't demonstrate

1041
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:37,680
Speaker 1: appropriate femininity, and this was a cultural signal of that,

1042
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:41,520
Speaker 1: then you were, you know, breaching headship. But one way

1043
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:44,360
Speaker 1: that you could show and have authority over your head.

1044
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:47,720
Speaker 1: In other words, you could show difference to male headship

1045
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 1: within the assembly. Whenever a woman prayed or prophesied, and

1046
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:54,560
Speaker 1: I believe the women were praying and prophesying there, whenever

1047
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 1: she did that, she would she would show difference to

1048
00:59:57,160 --> 00:59:59,919
Speaker 1: male headship by wearing that that covering on her head.

1049
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:03,320
Speaker 1: And then the same thing was the case with you

1050
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 1: the way she wore her hair. You know, a man's

1051
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 1: hair was supposed to be short, a woman's long. So

1052
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 1: the question that people always ask is, well, how come

1053
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 1: we don't do this now in church? Well, the answer

1054
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:15,000
Speaker 1: to that is some people do do that in church.

1055
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 1: There has been a long tradition within Christianity. Even today,

1056
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 1: if you go to the Vatican, they're gonna I think

1057
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 1: if at least the last time I went, I think

1058
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 1: they wanted women to have something on their head. Maybe

1059
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 1: they don't do that anymore, but there's a long tradition

1060
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:31,840
Speaker 1: of this, of people actually physically doing this, and maybe

1061
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:33,920
Speaker 1: you have some people in your church, I know I do.

1062
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:37,160
Speaker 3: Of women, it's very common in the Black Church for

1063
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:38,920
Speaker 3: women to wear a hat or.

1064
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:43,080
Speaker 1: Yes, a hat is a thing within church for women

1065
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 1: and it goes back to this, but there is probably

1066
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 1: far more churches were in far more Christians who aren't

1067
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 1: doing this. Usually when they're not, the reason is because

1068
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 1: they haven't thought through it. That's one reason I would argue, though,

1069
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 1: that I don't think it's an abiding requirement that covering itself.

1070
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 1: What I think is the abiding requirement is the headship part.

1071
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:15,040
Speaker 1: The headship part, and the covering was a culturally encoded

1072
01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 1: way of deferring to headship. And to be honest with you,

1073
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:23,920
Speaker 1: the text doesn't tell us exactly what the covering was.

1074
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 1: If it is a specific covering, you would have to

1075
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 1: know exactly what it was to obey it. In my view,

1076
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:32,600
Speaker 1: same thing with hair length. It doesn't tell you how

1077
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:34,760
Speaker 1: long is too long and how short is too short.

1078
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:38,000
Speaker 1: But what is it telling you. It's telling you that

1079
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:40,880
Speaker 1: what's going on with the male and female and the

1080
01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:43,240
Speaker 1: way that they wear their hair it needs to be different.

1081
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:46,800
Speaker 1: And so what I think is abiding here is is

1082
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 1: that you can't gender bend in the way that you

1083
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:52,360
Speaker 1: present yourself. If you're bending in the way that you

1084
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:54,960
Speaker 1: wear your hair and you're doing things that you know

1085
01:01:55,040 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 1: are transgressive culturally, that would transgress distinction between male and

1086
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:03,520
Speaker 1: female because most cultures, I think this is a result

1087
01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 1: of natural law. Most cultures have ways of signaling distinction

1088
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 1: between male and female in the way that they comport themselves,

1089
01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:14,440
Speaker 1: the way they wear their clothes. And if you're if

1090
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:16,960
Speaker 1: you're intentionally gender bending, like a lot of the trans

1091
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:19,480
Speaker 1: people do and a lot of the the queer folks do,

1092
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:24,960
Speaker 1: you're you're intentionally transgressing against that created order and you're

1093
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:26,920
Speaker 1: not supposed to be gender bending like that. And if

1094
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 1: you're a woman doing it in a worship service, you're

1095
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 1: actually dishonoring your head when you when you do that.

1096
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:34,520
Speaker 1: And so that's the way. That's how I would apply it.

1097
01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:34,760
Speaker 2: Now.

1098
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:37,000
Speaker 1: I don't think that every woman physically has to wear

1099
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:38,480
Speaker 1: head covering. I do think that she has to wear

1100
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:40,680
Speaker 1: she has to be deferential to male headship, and she

1101
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 1: shouldn't do anything in thought, deed, or presentation that would

1102
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:46,560
Speaker 1: that would undermine that.

1103
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:51,600
Speaker 3: Hey, it's funny that you just said the word queer.

1104
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:55,000
Speaker 3: Queer folks. Uh, can you imagine, like forty years ago

1105
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:57,960
Speaker 3: to the beginning of time, anyone using that term anyway?

1106
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:02,880
Speaker 3: That's it's funny that we have to really, Okay, I'm

1107
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:06,000
Speaker 3: going to do some rapid fire questions now really quickly.

1108
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:11,280
Speaker 3: Verse ten. This is a very interesting and misunderstood Verse

1109
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:15,480
Speaker 3: one Corinthians eleven, Verse ten. It says, that is why

1110
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 3: a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on

1111
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:21,479
Speaker 3: her head because of the angels. What in the world

1112
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:23,960
Speaker 3: does that mean? Because of the angels?

1113
01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:29,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, because of the angels. I don't know what translated.

1114
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:33,160
Speaker 1: Were you reading ESV. Yeah, yeah, So there's actually no

1115
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:37,480
Speaker 1: word for symbol there. It says literally, the woman ought

1116
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:40,640
Speaker 1: to have authority over her head, and which I think

1117
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:43,120
Speaker 1: means she ought to exercise authority over her own head,

1118
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:45,800
Speaker 1: and she shouldn't be out of control in the way

1119
01:03:45,840 --> 01:03:50,280
Speaker 1: she's presenting herself, either with what's covering it or the

1120
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:52,080
Speaker 1: way she's wearing her hair. So I think she's saying

1121
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:54,360
Speaker 1: that first of all, And so it has to do

1122
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:57,200
Speaker 1: with what's the proper way to present yourself in worship?

1123
01:03:57,240 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 1: And is the way you're presenting yourself deferential to male headship?

1124
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:06,080
Speaker 1: And then he says because of the angels. Now it's

1125
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:08,840
Speaker 1: a very cryptic expression. I can't go through all. I mean,

1126
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:10,440
Speaker 1: I think if you go in the commentaries, they'll give you,

1127
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:13,320
Speaker 1: like ten or eleven different views here. Yeah, I do think.

1128
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:15,960
Speaker 1: So where I am on this is I think that

1129
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:21,280
Speaker 1: there's evidence in scripture that there were angels present. They

1130
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:24,040
Speaker 1: believed in the first century that there were angels present.

1131
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:27,600
Speaker 1: Heaven was present at their worship services, and angels were there.

1132
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:31,280
Speaker 1: And so by saying because of the angels, he's talking

1133
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:36,160
Speaker 1: about because of Heaven's presence in your midst you have

1134
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:40,080
Speaker 1: to recognize this creation norm of male headship. That's what

1135
01:04:40,120 --> 01:04:41,320
Speaker 1: that's what I think he's referring to.

1136
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:46,000
Speaker 3: Wrong answer. I believe it because of the angels who

1137
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:50,040
Speaker 3: left their place and had Really that's another.

1138
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:52,440
Speaker 1: One of the views. That's another relationships with women.

1139
01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:54,720
Speaker 3: But we could disagree with.

1140
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:57,920
Speaker 1: That those are the sons of God. Yes, okay, so

1141
01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:00,960
Speaker 1: it's a legitimate, you know, plausible view.

1142
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:07,160
Speaker 3: Three okay, three more quick questions. Who can teach Sunday school?

1143
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:13,320
Speaker 1: So your more soft complementarians are going to say whoever, right,

1144
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:16,120
Speaker 1: They're just going to say whoever. I am not in

1145
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:20,720
Speaker 1: that camp because Paul's instruction is pretty categorical. In one.

1146
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:22,680
Speaker 1: Timothy too, I don't allow when to teach rexs as

1147
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:25,760
Speaker 1: authority over man. And you can't just change venues and

1148
01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:28,720
Speaker 1: think that the apostolic prohibition just goes away. It doesn't.

1149
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:32,560
Speaker 1: There's a natchal And and Paul roots that in the

1150
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:35,040
Speaker 1: order of creation, and men and women don't stop being

1151
01:05:35,040 --> 01:05:37,400
Speaker 1: men and women when you go to Sunday School. And

1152
01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:40,600
Speaker 1: so the prohibition that would apply to the pulpit applies

1153
01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:42,760
Speaker 1: to Sunday School. Now, there are a lot of people

1154
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:46,480
Speaker 1: who are complementarians, who you know, own the label complementarian,

1155
01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:48,800
Speaker 1: who disagree with that. I don't know. I don't understand

1156
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:50,760
Speaker 1: their reasoning. I don't think it's a very solid one.

1157
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:53,920
Speaker 3: And what about seminary who can teach in seminary?

1158
01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:57,920
Speaker 1: Well, it's the same thing. So if you have like

1159
01:05:57,960 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 1: a seminary, I teach that. We have women who are

1160
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:01,880
Speaker 1: employed here as professors, but they don't teach in the

1161
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:07,320
Speaker 1: theological disciplines per se. That we want the guys who

1162
01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:10,600
Speaker 1: are who are training pastors to be able to be

1163
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:14,600
Speaker 1: qualified as pastors themselves. So in the disciplines of Bible

1164
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:18,240
Speaker 1: and theology, we employ you know, men, because we're a

1165
01:06:18,240 --> 01:06:24,080
Speaker 1: complementarian school. So that's how I would hold it. Now,

1166
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:26,320
Speaker 1: there are other seminaries are much smaller than ours. They

1167
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:28,520
Speaker 1: do a lot less than we do. Like I teach

1168
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 1: at the undergrad level. For example, in the person right now,

1169
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:33,440
Speaker 1: I'm in my office right now, the person that's right

1170
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:36,920
Speaker 1: next to me as a person who teaches literature, Okay,

1171
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:41,200
Speaker 1: and she's a woman, We have no problem with that. However,

1172
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:45,040
Speaker 1: the theological disciplines would be different. And if you're at

1173
01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:47,760
Speaker 1: a smaller school and you're not doing the same breadth

1174
01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:50,320
Speaker 1: of things that we are. Really all you're doing is

1175
01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:53,720
Speaker 1: training pastors, then yeah, you probably would only have men.

1176
01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:59,560
Speaker 3: And then deacons. Can women serve as deacons? And talk

1177
01:06:59,560 --> 01:07:03,240
Speaker 3: about because that's the verse that's pointed to the most,

1178
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:08,680
Speaker 3: but I think it's Romans sixteen one, but talk about deacons.

1179
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:15,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I do think that complementarians, legitimate, faithful complimentarians

1180
01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:19,160
Speaker 1: can have a difference of opinion about deacons. I do

1181
01:07:19,240 --> 01:07:22,640
Speaker 1: think it's a different question depending on what denomination you're in.

1182
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:27,360
Speaker 1: Within my denomination, a deacon is a serving role. It's

1183
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:30,000
Speaker 1: not a ruling role. If you go to the PCA,

1184
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:32,760
Speaker 1: they view it very very differently because a deacon is

1185
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:35,680
Speaker 1: an ordained role, and if you're ordained, that comes with

1186
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:38,520
Speaker 1: an entailment of authority, and so the way they treat

1187
01:07:38,520 --> 01:07:40,720
Speaker 1: this would be very different than many Baptists do. But

1188
01:07:40,880 --> 01:07:44,360
Speaker 1: having said that, as a Baptist, I'm actually one of

1189
01:07:44,400 --> 01:07:48,800
Speaker 1: the Baptists who thinks that the office of deacon is

1190
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:52,960
Speaker 1: limited to men. I don't actually see female deacons in scripture,

1191
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:55,760
Speaker 1: and I don't think Phoebe. The evidence for Phoebe be

1192
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:58,320
Speaker 1: and a deacon is pretty paltry. The reason for that

1193
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:01,000
Speaker 1: is the word for deacon, deac is just the word

1194
01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:05,080
Speaker 1: that means servant, and it's Diacanos has used the vast

1195
01:08:05,120 --> 01:08:09,360
Speaker 1: majority of times in scripture to refer to servants, just

1196
01:08:09,520 --> 01:08:11,720
Speaker 1: generically servants, and then you have like three or four

1197
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:16,960
Speaker 1: uses that's referring specifically to the office. And so Phoebe

1198
01:08:17,160 --> 01:08:19,800
Speaker 1: is called a diaconos, no question about that in Romans

1199
01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:23,320
Speaker 1: chapter sixteen, in verses one and two. But I think

1200
01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:25,519
Speaker 1: she's just being called a servant of the church. It's

1201
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:29,000
Speaker 1: not indicating that she's an officeholder. And when you look

1202
01:08:29,000 --> 01:08:33,320
Speaker 1: at First Timothy three, where it talks about the qualifications

1203
01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:37,320
Speaker 1: for deacons, it doesn't talk about deaconesses. It just talks

1204
01:08:37,360 --> 01:08:40,320
Speaker 1: about women, which I think is referring to the wives

1205
01:08:40,360 --> 01:08:42,479
Speaker 1: of the deacons and what they're supposed to be like.

1206
01:08:42,880 --> 01:08:46,200
Speaker 1: But I don't think it the women themselves are deacons. Now,

1207
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:48,800
Speaker 1: having said that, there are people who come to a

1208
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:50,840
Speaker 1: different there are people in my own church, people that

1209
01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:52,640
Speaker 1: I'm elders with, who have a different view of this

1210
01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:57,720
Speaker 1: than me. It, we're not dividing over it. You can

1211
01:08:57,760 --> 01:08:59,400
Speaker 1: have a difference of opinion on this and still be

1212
01:08:59,439 --> 01:09:02,680
Speaker 1: faithfully implementarian so long as the deacon roll is not

1213
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:04,760
Speaker 1: a ruling role in your church. If it is a

1214
01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:07,960
Speaker 1: ruling role, they need to have a complementarian problem.

1215
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:14,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, and just to kind of close this, Yeah, we're

1216
01:09:14,120 --> 01:09:18,719
Speaker 3: all submitting, right, Like wives are submitting to their husbands.

1217
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:21,600
Speaker 3: We're submitting to Christ. Christ when he was on this

1218
01:09:21,640 --> 01:09:24,880
Speaker 3: earth was submitting to the Father. Like, there's all We're

1219
01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:28,760
Speaker 3: all submitting. And it's not. It's not someone is better

1220
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:32,679
Speaker 3: than another or men are better than women. I mean,

1221
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:34,880
Speaker 3: by the way, being a pastor is like the hardest

1222
01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:39,120
Speaker 3: job probably in the world. And so I don't know why,

1223
01:09:39,280 --> 01:09:43,960
Speaker 3: you know, anyone would really you know, aspire to that.

1224
01:09:44,400 --> 01:09:47,479
Speaker 3: Why would they all? I mean, you know, it's like anyway,

1225
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:51,160
Speaker 3: I'm just saying it's not. I'm just saying that this

1226
01:09:51,240 --> 01:09:54,960
Speaker 3: is it's not saying one gender or one sex is

1227
01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:59,560
Speaker 3: better than the other right, yeah, so we're going to

1228
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:04,800
Speaker 3: leave it the But the book is mere complimentarianism. By

1229
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:06,920
Speaker 3: the way, that word is way too long. It's so

1230
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:11,479
Speaker 3: hard to say. It's eight syllables, complementary and is a

1231
01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:15,639
Speaker 3: maya male and female in the Image of God by

1232
01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:18,439
Speaker 3: Denny Burke and Denny Burke. Thank you for coming on

1233
01:10:18,479 --> 01:10:21,719
Speaker 3: the show and talking about this controversial Becky.

1234
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:24,040
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you

1235
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:26,559
Speaker 1: so much for your ministry, and thanks for doing this again.

1236
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:30,120
Speaker 3: Appreciate it all right, thank you. Wait, don't touch that dial.

1237
01:10:30,240 --> 01:10:33,800
Speaker 3: Please like and subscribe, and also please consider becoming a

1238
01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:37,439
Speaker 3: patron on Patreon For as little as five dollars a month.

1239
01:10:37,479 --> 01:10:39,880
Speaker 3: You can really help us out on the show. The

1240
01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:43,400
Speaker 3: link is below, and we so so appreciate it. Thank you.

1241
01:10:46,479 --> 01:10:48,919
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to this episode of The Beckett

1242
01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:54,200
Speaker 2: Cook Show. Your support makes this content possible. All episodes

1243
01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:57,120
Speaker 2: of The Becky Cook Show are also available on YouTube.

1244
01:10:58,240 --> 01:11:01,360
Speaker 2: For more information about Beckett and his ministry, visit his

1245
01:11:01,439 --> 01:11:04,639
Speaker 2: website at Beckettcook dot com.

1246
01:11:04,840 --> 01:11:06,760
Speaker 3: Thank you to the team at life Audio for their

1247
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:09,760
Speaker 3: partnership with us. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,

1248
01:11:09,800 --> 01:11:13,879
Speaker 3: you will find more faith centered podcasts about prayer, Bible study, parenting,

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