1 00:00:12,030 --> 00:00:14,950 Speaker 1: This is Donna Jones, and you are listening to That's 2 00:00:15,150 --> 00:00:17,870 Speaker 1: Just What I Needed. Hey, friend, if you've ever been 3 00:00:17,890 --> 00:00:20,770 Speaker 1: in a conversation where you've walked away thinking, wow, that 4 00:00:20,790 --> 00:00:23,500 Speaker 1: was just what I needed, you know how life-giving that 5 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: can be. Well, that's what this podcast is all about. 6 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: We're women who want to know, love, and follow God 7 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: in our real lives, but sometimes wonder just how to 8 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,860 Speaker 1: do it. So each week, we'll talk about what Paul 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,099 Speaker 1: and God looks like in the midst of daily demands 10 00:00:37,300 --> 00:00:41,590 Speaker 1: and crazy cultural chaos. Because this isn't just what we need. 11 00:00:41,870 --> 00:00:46,309 Speaker 1: It's actually exactly what we need. Hey, hey, my friend. 12 00:00:46,510 --> 00:00:51,090 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the podcast. I have another great conversation 13 00:00:51,130 --> 00:00:53,610 Speaker 1: for you today. I mean, truly, you need it. I'm 14 00:00:53,650 --> 00:00:56,310 Speaker 1: just telling you right now, this is the conversation you need. 15 00:00:56,380 --> 00:00:59,380 Speaker 1: And I know that because it's a conversation we all need. 16 00:00:59,580 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: Before we get to today's conversation, hey, I want to 17 00:01:03,740 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: connect with you on social media. You can find me 18 00:01:06,340 --> 00:01:09,260 Speaker 1: on Instagram at Donna A. Jones or on Facebook at 19 00:01:09,300 --> 00:01:13,670 Speaker 1: Donna Jones Speaker and Author. And I have a website. 20 00:01:13,730 --> 00:01:17,170 Speaker 1: Did you know that? DonnaJones.org where I have all kinds 21 00:01:17,209 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: of free resources. And you will also find my speaking 22 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 1: calendar there. I would love to connect with you at 23 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,020 Speaker 1: one of my speaking events. Or even better, I would 24 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:31,320 Speaker 1: love to come to your church or speak for your organization. 25 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:36,510 Speaker 1: So gosh, 28 states. I've spoken in four continents. I mean, 26 00:01:37,050 --> 00:01:38,790 Speaker 1: I kind of do this thing a lot. So I 27 00:01:38,810 --> 00:01:42,150 Speaker 1: would love to come and be with you and meet 28 00:01:42,190 --> 00:01:45,630 Speaker 1: you personally. So if your church or organization is looking 29 00:01:45,670 --> 00:01:48,470 Speaker 1: for a speaker, I would be honored to be considered. 30 00:01:48,610 --> 00:01:51,620 Speaker 1: So you'll find information about having me come speak to 31 00:01:51,660 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: your group at donajones.org. Well, let me tell you a 32 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,860 Speaker 1: little bit about today's guest. Her name is Nicole Langman. 33 00:02:00,140 --> 00:02:04,540 Speaker 1: Nicole is a speaker, she's a therapist, and she's an author. 34 00:02:05,140 --> 00:02:10,590 Speaker 1: And she has got some real-life wisdom for us and 35 00:02:10,650 --> 00:02:14,670 Speaker 1: some professional wisdom for us. So help me welcome my 36 00:02:14,730 --> 00:02:20,989 Speaker 1: new friend, Nicole Langman. Well, Nicole, welcome to the podcast. 37 00:02:21,260 --> 00:02:22,649 Speaker 2: Hi, Donna. Thanks for having me. 38 00:02:23,110 --> 00:02:26,510 Speaker 1: I am so glad you're here. We are on opposite 39 00:02:26,570 --> 00:02:29,660 Speaker 1: sides of, well, I won't say the country, North America. 40 00:02:30,770 --> 00:02:33,429 Speaker 1: So I'm in Southern California. Nicole, tell us where you 41 00:02:33,530 --> 00:02:34,209 Speaker 1: are located. 42 00:02:34,630 --> 00:02:37,780 Speaker 2: I'm two hours north of Toronto in Ontario, Canada. So 43 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 2: very much across, diagonally across. 44 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: Yes. So opposite in physical location, but aligned completely in heart. 45 00:02:48,620 --> 00:02:49,170 Speaker 2: I like that. 46 00:02:49,190 --> 00:02:53,030 Speaker 1: I like that. Yeah. Nicole, you have written this new book, 47 00:02:53,710 --> 00:02:56,210 Speaker 1: and I was telling you before we hit record that 48 00:02:57,130 --> 00:03:00,230 Speaker 1: When your publicist reached out to me, I laughed at 49 00:03:00,250 --> 00:03:02,550 Speaker 1: the title because I was like, oh, I need this book. 50 00:03:02,790 --> 00:03:08,649 Speaker 1: Then she emailed me back, girl, don't we all? Tell 51 00:03:08,690 --> 00:03:11,389 Speaker 1: us the title of the book and include the subtitle 52 00:03:11,450 --> 00:03:12,730 Speaker 1: because it's full as well. 53 00:03:13,250 --> 00:03:15,910 Speaker 2: Yeah, the title of the book is This Isn't the 54 00:03:15,950 --> 00:03:19,410 Speaker 2: Story I Wanted, Grieving the Life You Lost and Trusting 55 00:03:19,430 --> 00:03:22,650 Speaker 2: the God Who Stayed. So it really is, this isn't 56 00:03:22,660 --> 00:03:24,690 Speaker 2: the story I wanted. I'm living in a story I 57 00:03:24,730 --> 00:03:27,990 Speaker 2: didn't choose, I didn't want. And the focus is actually 58 00:03:28,430 --> 00:03:32,109 Speaker 2: for loss unrelated to death. And I wrote this book 59 00:03:32,210 --> 00:03:35,390 Speaker 2: for people who are grieving losses when nobody has died. 60 00:03:35,430 --> 00:03:37,490 Speaker 2: On the back of the book, it's in quotes, it says, 61 00:03:37,650 --> 00:03:40,930 Speaker 2: but nobody has died. And kind of that sense of 62 00:03:41,210 --> 00:03:44,270 Speaker 2: just that emotional chaos that comes with grief around what 63 00:03:44,330 --> 00:03:46,930 Speaker 2: is actually happening in my life, but nobody's died, but 64 00:03:46,950 --> 00:03:49,140 Speaker 2: I still feel this way. And so I think it's 65 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,620 Speaker 2: resonating with a lot of people because we all carry 66 00:03:51,660 --> 00:03:53,090 Speaker 2: grief unrelated to death. 67 00:03:53,590 --> 00:03:57,370 Speaker 1: And see, this is such an important topic because we 68 00:03:57,750 --> 00:04:00,490 Speaker 1: all know that when there's a loss of a loved one, 69 00:04:00,810 --> 00:04:02,970 Speaker 1: of course you're going to grieve. So you give yourself 70 00:04:03,030 --> 00:04:08,980 Speaker 1: permission to grieve. And even that is messy, accepted, but messy, right? Very. 71 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:13,420 Speaker 1: Most people don't think about grieving as it relates to 72 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:17,300 Speaker 1: loss when it's not related to death. So tell us 73 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: a little bit about, well, first, like why you wrote 74 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,580 Speaker 1: this book. I'm assuming it was a personal journey. And 75 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,060 Speaker 1: then maybe segue into some other losses that people might 76 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,580 Speaker 1: be grieving. And they may not, until today, Nicole, have 77 00:04:30,660 --> 00:04:36,500 Speaker 1: even been able to put a fingerprint on, oh, that's 78 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:37,670 Speaker 1: what I'm feeling. 79 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:40,589 Speaker 2: Yes. And that is liberating. I can't tell you how 80 00:04:40,610 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 2: many women come through my door as a therapist. And 81 00:04:43,180 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 2: sit down and they tell me a story that is 82 00:04:44,980 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 2: full of grief. And they're very obviously grieving. And I 83 00:04:47,700 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 2: will say, it sounds to me like you're grieving. And 84 00:04:50,700 --> 00:04:54,420 Speaker 2: they'll just well up with tears because there's a sense of, yeah, 85 00:04:54,620 --> 00:04:56,260 Speaker 2: that's what this is. That's what this is. 86 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:56,700 Speaker 1: It's grief. 87 00:04:56,740 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 2: And I hadn't called it that. And it's almost liberating. 88 00:04:59,260 --> 00:05:02,050 Speaker 2: It's like, oh, okay, there's a name for it. And 89 00:05:02,270 --> 00:05:04,190 Speaker 2: it's a little bit shocking when you're not thinking of 90 00:05:04,210 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 2: it being grief because nobody's died. And yet there's a 91 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 2: lot of things that we grieve. And so the book 92 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 2: came to be, this is my second book. The first 93 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 2: book is very much connected that I wrote was called 94 00:05:13,540 --> 00:05:15,420 Speaker 2: You Are Wanted. And it's very much connected to the 95 00:05:15,460 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 2: story of feeling unwanted through marital betrayal and rejection. So 96 00:05:19,060 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 2: my husband of almost 20 years had walked away and 97 00:05:22,100 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 2: had built a life outside of our family. And he 98 00:05:24,740 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 2: had that choice kind of launched me into what I 99 00:05:27,940 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 2: say was the deepest valley of my life. I had 100 00:05:29,990 --> 00:05:32,170 Speaker 2: been kicked out of my favorite club, the wife club, 101 00:05:32,450 --> 00:05:36,410 Speaker 2: and I didn't recognize myself anymore. My identity had changed. 102 00:05:36,670 --> 00:05:39,930 Speaker 2: Our circles of friends had changed. And that loss, I 103 00:05:39,950 --> 00:05:44,450 Speaker 2: was a therapist. And I was wrestling with a lot 104 00:05:44,490 --> 00:05:46,730 Speaker 2: of the struggle around just shame, around what is wrong 105 00:05:46,750 --> 00:05:49,229 Speaker 2: with me. So I didn't really necessarily know even how 106 00:05:49,270 --> 00:05:51,430 Speaker 2: to verbalize how I was feeling. But I certainly didn't 107 00:05:51,470 --> 00:05:54,210 Speaker 2: want to because as a therapist, I should know when 108 00:05:54,390 --> 00:05:57,410 Speaker 2: someone's having an affair. I should know when someone's up 109 00:05:57,490 --> 00:06:00,539 Speaker 2: to kind of some sketchy things behind the scene. But 110 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 2: I often say it's hard to read the label when 111 00:06:02,940 --> 00:06:06,770 Speaker 2: you're inside the bottle. And so I was so close 112 00:06:06,830 --> 00:06:08,930 Speaker 2: up to it, I didn't necessarily see the red and 113 00:06:08,970 --> 00:06:12,260 Speaker 2: yellow flags until it was too late. When he left, 114 00:06:12,700 --> 00:06:16,540 Speaker 2: that was a huge rearranging of my life and my identity. 115 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:18,980 Speaker 2: But you know, what was really interesting during that time 116 00:06:19,020 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 2: was that there wasn't a lot of information, there wasn't 117 00:06:21,779 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 2: a lot of showing up in my circles. People didn't 118 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,380 Speaker 2: step into this grief with me because I don't think 119 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:28,940 Speaker 2: they knew what to do. The church didn't know what 120 00:06:28,980 --> 00:06:31,550 Speaker 2: to do. And my friends didn't know what to do. 121 00:06:31,690 --> 00:06:34,550 Speaker 2: There was a lot of comments that came into our conversations, 122 00:06:34,589 --> 00:06:38,090 Speaker 2: which were, good riddance. You're better off without him. You 123 00:06:38,130 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 2: don't need him. Let her have him. That kind of 124 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 2: a thing. You'll find someone better. We would never say 125 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 2: these things to someone who's lost their spouse to death. 126 00:06:44,580 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 2: But we say those things to women who have lost their, 127 00:06:47,900 --> 00:06:49,900 Speaker 2: because we think that we're kind of painting a silver 128 00:06:49,940 --> 00:06:52,050 Speaker 2: lining around it. And in fact, what that does is 129 00:06:52,110 --> 00:06:54,310 Speaker 2: it minimizes it. So I went through that season a 130 00:06:54,330 --> 00:06:56,289 Speaker 2: little bit feeling like there were some crickets. It felt 131 00:06:56,330 --> 00:06:58,930 Speaker 2: a little bit like crickets, but fast forward, this is 132 00:06:58,930 --> 00:07:00,529 Speaker 2: 10 years ago, the story is 10 years old, but 133 00:07:00,710 --> 00:07:04,300 Speaker 2: three years ago, we lost my mom to cancer. And 134 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 2: it was a very quick battle. My mom was a 135 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 2: very well-loved woman, very involved in all kinds of circles. 136 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:15,290 Speaker 2: The outpouring of love for our family was breathtaking for us. 137 00:07:15,310 --> 00:07:18,470 Speaker 2: I mean, we just The casseroles flooded in. The condolence 138 00:07:18,510 --> 00:07:21,070 Speaker 2: cards flooded in. There was a ceremony. And still, even now, 139 00:07:21,150 --> 00:07:24,430 Speaker 2: three years later, we're still getting conversations about mom. They 140 00:07:24,450 --> 00:07:27,190 Speaker 2: just come up. People remember the date that she passed. 141 00:07:27,270 --> 00:07:29,490 Speaker 2: And there's a lot of honoring of her. And so 142 00:07:29,510 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 2: I held these two very devastating experiences up beside each other. 143 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 2: And I thought, hmm, we know how to honor death. 144 00:07:36,860 --> 00:07:39,550 Speaker 2: Not perfectly, but we know how to honor death. someone's 145 00:07:39,590 --> 00:07:41,470 Speaker 2: life and the loss of someone who had been living 146 00:07:41,530 --> 00:07:43,250 Speaker 2: to death. But we don't know what to do with 147 00:07:43,270 --> 00:07:47,210 Speaker 2: some of these other losses. And the other losses are far-reaching. 148 00:07:47,570 --> 00:07:50,310 Speaker 2: For me, it was a death of a marriage related 149 00:07:50,330 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 2: to divorce and betrayal and rejection and all of that. 150 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: But people are grieving a huge gamut of things that 151 00:07:58,700 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 2: are quiet to the world. So, for example, what I 152 00:08:02,380 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 2: hear from women who come to the door is mental health, addiction, right? 153 00:08:07,290 --> 00:08:11,330 Speaker 2: Pornography in the family that is grief worthy because it 154 00:08:11,370 --> 00:08:14,350 Speaker 2: disrupts the healthy flow of the relationship. Your child is 155 00:08:14,390 --> 00:08:17,570 Speaker 2: battling mental illness or struggling with addiction or won't come 156 00:08:17,590 --> 00:08:20,950 Speaker 2: out of the basement because they're battling something else that 157 00:08:20,970 --> 00:08:24,070 Speaker 2: you're not even sure how to manage. Or estrangement. It's 158 00:08:24,110 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 2: a huge issue, this cancel culture where families are disconnected 159 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 2: and they don't know what to do or when they're 160 00:08:29,620 --> 00:08:32,459 Speaker 2: going to see their kids again. Or infertility. It's a 161 00:08:32,540 --> 00:08:35,780 Speaker 2: huge grief that families are facing. A child with a disability. 162 00:08:36,740 --> 00:08:40,620 Speaker 2: I'm very close to folks who have children with disabilities, 163 00:08:40,780 --> 00:08:43,110 Speaker 2: and they make it look easy. But let's just put 164 00:08:43,150 --> 00:08:45,130 Speaker 2: this out there. The most holy work we can do 165 00:08:45,210 --> 00:08:47,590 Speaker 2: as parents, and when you are parenting a child with 166 00:08:47,650 --> 00:08:52,970 Speaker 2: a disability, it is hard work. It is hard work, 167 00:08:53,070 --> 00:08:54,829 Speaker 2: but it is hard work. And there's a lot of 168 00:08:54,870 --> 00:08:58,510 Speaker 2: grief with not having that story that we had dreamt 169 00:08:58,550 --> 00:09:01,230 Speaker 2: for our child, right? And so we go about our 170 00:09:01,250 --> 00:09:03,790 Speaker 2: business and we do our things, but there's tremendous grief there. 171 00:09:04,110 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 2: And you know, that we know how to put together 172 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 2: a meal train for the family who's lost a loved 173 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 2: one to death, but we don't necessarily know how to 174 00:09:10,260 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 2: show up. I call it the casserole code. It's not 175 00:09:12,980 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 2: even about the casserole at all, but we don't necessarily 176 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,490 Speaker 2: know how to show up in these other losses where 177 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,910 Speaker 2: grief is so enormous as well. So that's why that 178 00:09:20,950 --> 00:09:22,449 Speaker 2: book came to be. It was just this kind of 179 00:09:22,470 --> 00:09:24,589 Speaker 2: sense of noticing not to compare. We don't want to 180 00:09:24,610 --> 00:09:26,790 Speaker 2: compare our griefs. We don't want to compare our losses. 181 00:09:26,890 --> 00:09:29,110 Speaker 2: That's not healthy or reasonable, but we do want to 182 00:09:29,170 --> 00:09:31,550 Speaker 2: notice that there is, I know how to manage this, 183 00:09:31,590 --> 00:09:35,090 Speaker 2: but what do I do about grief related to other losses. 184 00:09:35,750 --> 00:09:39,809 Speaker 1: That is so, so good. And actually, I love the comparison, 185 00:09:40,010 --> 00:09:42,940 Speaker 1: not that you want to compare my grief to your grief. 186 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:44,939 Speaker 1: And you know, this is interesting, even that you said 187 00:09:44,980 --> 00:09:49,460 Speaker 1: that because I was expressing something about a loss that 188 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,460 Speaker 1: I've experienced, but then I found myself saying, but it's 189 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:53,929 Speaker 1: nothing compared to. 190 00:09:54,309 --> 00:09:55,850 Speaker 2: Compared to, there it is. 191 00:09:56,050 --> 00:09:58,850 Speaker 1: Yes. And the person that I was talking to responded 192 00:09:58,970 --> 00:10:01,929 Speaker 1: was really gracious to me. And she goes, Donna, all 193 00:10:02,010 --> 00:10:05,150 Speaker 1: loss is loss. There's not a scale. Just because somebody 194 00:10:05,220 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: else's might be quote unquote bigger doesn't mean you don't 195 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: feel certain things or experience certain things that goes along. 196 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:18,340 Speaker 1: with the loss. So I was so thankful that they 197 00:10:18,660 --> 00:10:21,820 Speaker 1: actually affirmed me when I didn't even know to affirm 198 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:23,059 Speaker 1: my own feelings. 199 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 2: That's a good friend move, definitely. Because what that does 200 00:10:26,780 --> 00:10:30,020 Speaker 2: is that it helps you feel validated in your missing 201 00:10:30,100 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 2: and your longing in the eight. Because we'd spend a 202 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:34,380 Speaker 2: lot of time in our own selves trying to kind 203 00:10:34,420 --> 00:10:36,839 Speaker 2: of like compare, locate, you know, this didn't happen. I 204 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,790 Speaker 2: had a friend say, well, at least you didn't die. Okay, no, 205 00:10:39,830 --> 00:10:42,190 Speaker 2: he didn't die, but he's off with this other person 206 00:10:42,390 --> 00:10:44,410 Speaker 2: doing this other thing, and I'm left over here picking 207 00:10:44,429 --> 00:10:46,470 Speaker 2: up the pieces of our family. So at least he 208 00:10:46,490 --> 00:10:50,510 Speaker 2: didn't die, but does that help me feel seen and validated? 209 00:10:50,550 --> 00:10:52,230 Speaker 2: Because what is the very best thing that we can 210 00:10:52,270 --> 00:10:55,410 Speaker 2: offer people? Being seen, letting them know they're not alone 211 00:10:55,570 --> 00:10:58,950 Speaker 2: in their pain. And so that stepping into someone's pain 212 00:10:59,150 --> 00:11:02,510 Speaker 2: is not ever to compare or to measure up against 213 00:11:02,550 --> 00:11:05,020 Speaker 2: someone else's loss. or even to tell our own story 214 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,559 Speaker 2: of loss necessarily, but just to say, I don't know 215 00:11:07,580 --> 00:11:09,300 Speaker 2: what you're going through. I have no idea even what 216 00:11:09,340 --> 00:11:11,979 Speaker 2: to say, except that I'm sorry and I'm here. And 217 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 2: what are you doing on Tuesday? Can I take you 218 00:11:14,059 --> 00:11:17,070 Speaker 2: for coffee? So that moving in instead of pulling back 219 00:11:17,170 --> 00:11:19,329 Speaker 2: because we don't know what to say or what to do. 220 00:11:19,910 --> 00:11:24,230 Speaker 1: That's practical, very cookies on the bottom shelf piece of 221 00:11:24,270 --> 00:11:27,270 Speaker 1: advice for navigating this. We're going to take a quick break. 222 00:11:27,590 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 1: And when we come back, I have just loads of 223 00:11:30,250 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: questions for you for both how to navigate our own losses, 224 00:11:34,260 --> 00:11:36,500 Speaker 1: in a healthy way, and then also how to help 225 00:11:36,660 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: other people navigate their losses in a healthy way. So 226 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: we'll be right back. Well, Nicole, before the break, we 227 00:11:44,059 --> 00:11:48,030 Speaker 1: were talking about the fact that we all experience loss, 228 00:11:48,170 --> 00:11:50,089 Speaker 1: which means we have grief. None of us have the 229 00:11:50,150 --> 00:11:53,750 Speaker 1: life that we completely wanted. I mean, to varying degrees, 230 00:11:53,850 --> 00:11:56,689 Speaker 1: we have things that we're like, yes, that's exactly what 231 00:11:56,730 --> 00:11:58,690 Speaker 1: I wanted. And then we have things that we're like, wow, 232 00:11:58,710 --> 00:12:01,809 Speaker 1: I never would have chose that. But you were talking 233 00:12:01,970 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: about healthy ways to deal with ourselves when we're dealing 234 00:12:06,780 --> 00:12:09,060 Speaker 1: with loss and also with other people. So walk us 235 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 1: through just if somebody is listening right now, she's one 236 00:12:11,700 --> 00:12:13,900 Speaker 1: of our friends or he's one of our friends listening 237 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:18,010 Speaker 1: and they're thinking, oh, this is so me. Something's happened 238 00:12:18,030 --> 00:12:20,990 Speaker 1: with my job or with my family or with my 239 00:12:21,070 --> 00:12:25,150 Speaker 1: health or any number of things. What would you want 240 00:12:25,190 --> 00:12:26,250 Speaker 1: to say to that person? 241 00:12:27,010 --> 00:12:29,469 Speaker 2: Well, as a Christian person, the very last thing I 242 00:12:29,510 --> 00:12:32,390 Speaker 2: want to do is throw like Christian platitudes at people. 243 00:12:32,650 --> 00:12:35,729 Speaker 2: But I really do have to say that in my experience, 244 00:12:35,770 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 2: both personally and professionally, the very best thing that I 245 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:41,900 Speaker 2: did was pray and talk to the Lord about it. 246 00:12:42,179 --> 00:12:44,020 Speaker 2: And so for me, that's the starting place with all 247 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 2: of these things is around, but not just God, this hurts, 248 00:12:46,740 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 2: but one of those like soul cries, that's a lament piece, right? 249 00:12:50,059 --> 00:12:52,530 Speaker 2: Is that soul cry of, and we didn't have to 250 00:12:52,610 --> 00:12:54,510 Speaker 2: use words, but because God can read our heart, but 251 00:12:54,550 --> 00:12:57,599 Speaker 2: God help, I don't know. how to do this. I 252 00:12:57,620 --> 00:12:59,579 Speaker 2: think prayer is a great place to start, but I 253 00:12:59,620 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 2: think we need to name it. I think we need 254 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,950 Speaker 2: to identify what it is exactly that the struggle is. 255 00:13:05,010 --> 00:13:07,069 Speaker 2: For me, when I pull back all the pieces, that 256 00:13:07,150 --> 00:13:09,570 Speaker 2: time in my life, I had started to see myself 257 00:13:09,610 --> 00:13:11,770 Speaker 2: through the man who had walked away, through his eyes, 258 00:13:11,850 --> 00:13:13,809 Speaker 2: instead of through the man who would never walk away 259 00:13:13,830 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 2: as my savior. What I had to actually do is 260 00:13:15,740 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 2: like pull back the layers a little bit for myself 261 00:13:18,380 --> 00:13:22,100 Speaker 2: and say, what is it that hurts so much? Why 262 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,059 Speaker 2: does this hurt so much? And what it boiled down 263 00:13:24,100 --> 00:13:26,830 Speaker 2: to is this isn't the story I wanted. I didn't 264 00:13:26,870 --> 00:13:28,929 Speaker 2: want to be a divorced woman. I didn't want my 265 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,060 Speaker 2: family to be kind of broken up in this way. 266 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 2: I didn't want our families to suffer and have to 267 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,540 Speaker 2: choose and our friends have to choose camps. I am 268 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,060 Speaker 2: devastated by that. I'm embarrassed that this has happened to me. 269 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 2: So really name it, really pull back the layers and 270 00:13:43,330 --> 00:13:46,230 Speaker 2: look at what is it that hurts. Let yourself kind 271 00:13:46,250 --> 00:13:47,969 Speaker 2: of hover in that and linger in that a little bit. 272 00:13:48,050 --> 00:13:49,790 Speaker 2: I think when we can be really honest with ourselves, 273 00:13:50,170 --> 00:13:52,230 Speaker 2: we can be more honest with the Lord. He already knows. 274 00:13:52,750 --> 00:13:55,300 Speaker 2: He already knows. But he wants to hear from his kids. 275 00:13:55,340 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 2: He loves to hear from his kids. And so to 276 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,220 Speaker 2: be able to dig into that and identify it, if 277 00:14:00,460 --> 00:14:03,900 Speaker 2: your life has been rearranged by something and it's hurting you, 278 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:08,890 Speaker 2: you're grieving. And so allowing yourself to do the heavy lifting, 279 00:14:08,910 --> 00:14:12,030 Speaker 2: the heavy work of grief work, which is name it, 280 00:14:12,370 --> 00:14:14,530 Speaker 2: face it, don't run from it because grief will chase 281 00:14:14,590 --> 00:14:17,390 Speaker 2: us down and find us. And it will flare up 282 00:14:17,429 --> 00:14:20,230 Speaker 2: in all these different ways. But to let yourself off 283 00:14:20,270 --> 00:14:22,010 Speaker 2: the hook for having to be strong through this. 284 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: Right? 285 00:14:22,940 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 2: Let yourself off the hook for having to be, have 286 00:14:26,020 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 2: it all together or kind of like, well, at least 287 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,100 Speaker 2: he didn't die or at least this didn't happen or 288 00:14:31,140 --> 00:14:33,060 Speaker 2: at least I have one child or at least my 289 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,100 Speaker 2: child's not that unwell or that disabled or whatever it 290 00:14:36,140 --> 00:14:39,330 Speaker 2: might be, the at least piece actually minimizes and keeps 291 00:14:39,350 --> 00:14:41,990 Speaker 2: shame on our own feelings. And so we want to 292 00:14:42,030 --> 00:14:44,450 Speaker 2: make sure that we're honest and that we can honestly reflect. 293 00:14:44,970 --> 00:14:49,390 Speaker 2: So praying about it, identifying it, again, praying about it again, 294 00:14:50,060 --> 00:14:53,500 Speaker 2: I love making sure that you are with a very capable, 295 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:57,930 Speaker 2: healthy Christian counselor who can talk you through the grief process. 296 00:14:58,290 --> 00:15:02,650 Speaker 2: In my book, we've got Elizabeth Kugler-Ross's stages of grief, 297 00:15:03,270 --> 00:15:05,190 Speaker 2: and we're so grateful for her. She's done a nice job, 298 00:15:05,230 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 2: but it's not perfect in terms of grief can't be scripted. 299 00:15:08,420 --> 00:15:11,540 Speaker 2: It's not linear. It bobs all over the place. It's very, 300 00:15:11,620 --> 00:15:14,470 Speaker 2: very messy. Sometimes you're going to feel like you're bargaining 301 00:15:14,490 --> 00:15:16,290 Speaker 2: with God. Other times you're going to be angry. Then 302 00:15:16,310 --> 00:15:17,610 Speaker 2: you're going to move to a place of like, okay, 303 00:15:17,650 --> 00:15:19,270 Speaker 2: I'm okay. And tomorrow you're going to wake up and 304 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 2: you're going to feel undone again. And there's no smooth, 305 00:15:22,020 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 2: linear line through grief at all. And it also misses 306 00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 2: the faith aspect of bringing everything back to Jesus. Everything 307 00:15:28,780 --> 00:15:32,070 Speaker 2: back to, I have no words, Lord, but you understand. 308 00:15:32,470 --> 00:15:34,590 Speaker 2: And that whole sense of like offering it over to 309 00:15:34,630 --> 00:15:36,550 Speaker 2: him on a regular basis, a counselor can walk you 310 00:15:36,570 --> 00:15:39,250 Speaker 2: through that. Good godly friends can pray you through that. 311 00:15:39,890 --> 00:15:44,460 Speaker 2: And then not rushing yourself. Letting yourself do the work 312 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 2: of grieving. And depending on what it is that you're 313 00:15:46,940 --> 00:15:49,820 Speaker 2: grieving and what you're facing, this might be something that 314 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,250 Speaker 2: you travel with for your whole life. This might be 315 00:15:53,290 --> 00:15:55,390 Speaker 2: something that you learn to kind of grow up around 316 00:15:55,490 --> 00:15:58,150 Speaker 2: and carry differently. My dad was a firefighter and I 317 00:15:58,150 --> 00:16:00,690 Speaker 2: remember asking him, how do you carry people out of 318 00:16:00,770 --> 00:16:04,670 Speaker 2: the fire? And he said, it matters how you carry things. 319 00:16:05,220 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 2: And that matters here too, doesn't it? It matters how 320 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 2: we carry things. 321 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,609 Speaker 1: Okay, so expound on that because there are some things 322 00:16:12,890 --> 00:16:16,010 Speaker 1: that they do affect us. You know, your divorce. That's 323 00:16:16,070 --> 00:16:19,170 Speaker 1: your reality and that's now part of your story. Actually, 324 00:16:19,210 --> 00:16:22,530 Speaker 1: for all of us, something profound like that, infertility, that 325 00:16:22,550 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: becomes part of your story. Or you've lost a child 326 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,020 Speaker 1: or a friend. That becomes part of your story, right? 327 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: And the last thing we want to hear is I 328 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: may have to carry this my whole life. We want 329 00:16:33,820 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: to be one and done, right? 330 00:16:35,540 --> 00:16:37,630 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. We want that cure, that quick fix. 331 00:16:37,690 --> 00:16:38,430 Speaker 2: For sure we do. 332 00:16:38,750 --> 00:16:40,900 Speaker 1: I do. When you say that, you might have to 333 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,420 Speaker 1: carry it. That sounds depressing. So give us some hope 334 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: in what that might look like. 335 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,020 Speaker 2: Well, some things we heal quicker from. And so much 336 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,230 Speaker 2: of the work is recognizing, well, what's the wound and 337 00:16:52,270 --> 00:16:55,570 Speaker 2: what's the scar? And so for me, like you had said, 338 00:16:55,610 --> 00:16:57,170 Speaker 2: I think this is a very important point. I was like, 339 00:16:57,830 --> 00:17:00,770 Speaker 2: my divorce, the experience that I went through through my divorce, 340 00:17:01,110 --> 00:17:04,020 Speaker 2: the betrayal in particular has been especially kind of the 341 00:17:04,060 --> 00:17:06,340 Speaker 2: dark passenger that I've had to navigate and really trust 342 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,790 Speaker 2: the Lord through. That's always part of my story. Here's 343 00:17:08,810 --> 00:17:11,650 Speaker 2: what's happened, though. In my turning that over to the Lord, 344 00:17:11,750 --> 00:17:14,570 Speaker 2: it kind of moves to a place of, I don't understand. 345 00:17:14,609 --> 00:17:17,609 Speaker 2: When I stopped asking God why, and I started saying, 346 00:17:18,010 --> 00:17:19,890 Speaker 2: what now? What do we do with this now, Lord? 347 00:17:20,030 --> 00:17:22,869 Speaker 2: So not a why. There was never an answer that 348 00:17:22,890 --> 00:17:25,590 Speaker 2: would satisfy. There was never an answer that would have 349 00:17:25,609 --> 00:17:28,250 Speaker 2: satisfied me. I looked for the whys for two years. 350 00:17:28,390 --> 00:17:30,650 Speaker 2: There was never an answer that would have satisfied. But 351 00:17:30,750 --> 00:17:34,990 Speaker 2: what did satisfy was believing with my whole heart that 352 00:17:35,030 --> 00:17:38,250 Speaker 2: my God is actively working things out for good. that 353 00:17:38,310 --> 00:17:41,250 Speaker 2: he stands outside of time, that I can trust him. 354 00:17:41,609 --> 00:17:45,880 Speaker 2: He has a very strong reputation for weaving and working 355 00:17:46,180 --> 00:17:48,940 Speaker 2: things out and exchanging the beauty for the ashes. So 356 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,699 Speaker 2: that trust helped me carry it different in that I 357 00:17:52,820 --> 00:17:56,379 Speaker 2: knew that I could trust the one who wasn't going anywhere. 358 00:17:56,460 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 2: And when I can say like, okay, so I can 359 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:00,530 Speaker 2: share the burden of this. I'm going to bring it back. 360 00:18:00,570 --> 00:18:03,149 Speaker 2: Sometimes I can turn it back. How you carry it matters. 361 00:18:03,330 --> 00:18:06,030 Speaker 2: It's part of my story, but it's not the main 362 00:18:06,090 --> 00:18:09,010 Speaker 2: stage of my story. It doesn't get airtime anymore except 363 00:18:09,050 --> 00:18:11,189 Speaker 2: for these types of conversations, but all this is is 364 00:18:11,260 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 2: a redemption story for me now. What's happened is actually 365 00:18:14,260 --> 00:18:17,959 Speaker 2: what provided the most beautiful intimacy with Jesus was that 366 00:18:18,140 --> 00:18:22,620 Speaker 2: I understood through that experience what it meant to be 367 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:27,300 Speaker 2: in close relationship with Jesus. And I wouldn't change it 368 00:18:27,859 --> 00:18:30,860 Speaker 2: for anything because what I came out of that with 369 00:18:30,940 --> 00:18:34,790 Speaker 2: was this really beautiful connection with the one who stays. 370 00:18:34,970 --> 00:18:38,300 Speaker 2: I understand myself better. I understand him better. I know 371 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 2: that what he says of me is true and I 372 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 2: don't have to measure myself up against anyone else. And 373 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 2: so all of the stuff that's come from that pain season, 374 00:18:46,619 --> 00:18:49,100 Speaker 2: God is now working out and using for good. And 375 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 2: I am so delighted in that. So is there still 376 00:18:51,980 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 2: a level of grief there? Yes, but it's a scar. 377 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 2: It's not a scab. It's not a wound. That's kind 378 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,100 Speaker 2: of the transformation of grief as we continue to work 379 00:18:59,450 --> 00:19:02,619 Speaker 2: through it with Lord and other Christian folks and Christian 380 00:19:02,660 --> 00:19:05,300 Speaker 2: counselors and doing the readings and the prayers and the 381 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:07,260 Speaker 2: things that we know are necessary in order to maintain 382 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,530 Speaker 2: that relationship with Jesus. So it's part of our story, 383 00:19:09,550 --> 00:19:11,810 Speaker 2: but it doesn't have to have airtime for the rest 384 00:19:11,830 --> 00:19:12,270 Speaker 2: of our lives. 385 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,590 Speaker 1: That's so good. That's so good. What if somebody's listening 386 00:19:15,619 --> 00:19:20,030 Speaker 1: right now and they are thinking to themselves, I'm so hurt, 387 00:19:20,310 --> 00:19:23,330 Speaker 1: I'm so wounded that I don't even know if I 388 00:19:23,390 --> 00:19:27,970 Speaker 1: can pray because not only am I hurt by my situation, 389 00:19:27,990 --> 00:19:31,690 Speaker 1: I actually feel hurt by God. Did you experience that 390 00:19:31,810 --> 00:19:35,110 Speaker 1: at all? And if so, how did you navigate that? 391 00:19:35,850 --> 00:19:38,290 Speaker 2: Yeah, I did for a period of time feel hurt 392 00:19:38,330 --> 00:19:40,930 Speaker 2: by God that God would allow this because I believe 393 00:19:40,950 --> 00:19:43,620 Speaker 2: that he allowed it. I don't know that I believe 394 00:19:43,660 --> 00:19:46,030 Speaker 2: that he made it happen. I couldn't say that for 395 00:19:46,070 --> 00:19:47,469 Speaker 2: sure at the time, but I do believe that he 396 00:19:47,510 --> 00:19:49,390 Speaker 2: allowed it. I don't think there's anything that passes through 397 00:19:49,410 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 2: his hands that he doesn't say yes or no to. 398 00:19:51,859 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 2: So I was hurt that he would allow this, mostly 399 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,340 Speaker 2: for my daughter. I was like, well, maybe I deserve 400 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 2: this in some way, but I know that my daughter 401 00:19:58,300 --> 00:20:00,060 Speaker 2: did not deserve this. And so I was hurt that 402 00:20:00,100 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 2: God would allow this to happen to her. And I 403 00:20:02,020 --> 00:20:04,700 Speaker 2: do really reconcile that for a bit because I really 404 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 2: do believe in God's goodness, kindness, faithfulness, sovereignty. And so 405 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,179 Speaker 2: I had to wrestle with if this is true and 406 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,530 Speaker 2: this very painful thing happened, then I have to go 407 00:20:14,590 --> 00:20:17,700 Speaker 2: back to what I believe to be true. Always remembering, 408 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,169 Speaker 2: always reminding myself. And so the conversations with God, and 409 00:20:22,210 --> 00:20:24,590 Speaker 2: I had this one conversation where it was so clear 410 00:20:24,630 --> 00:20:26,930 Speaker 2: as day. I was on my face. The prayers that 411 00:20:26,970 --> 00:20:29,090 Speaker 2: you can't say out loud, He can hear your heart. 412 00:20:29,550 --> 00:20:31,590 Speaker 2: And I would actually lay with my face on my 413 00:20:31,630 --> 00:20:34,909 Speaker 2: Bible and just like ugly cry into my Bible and 414 00:20:34,930 --> 00:20:37,629 Speaker 2: just beg Him with my heart and soul to heal 415 00:20:37,690 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 2: me and help me. And if he did, I said, 416 00:20:40,300 --> 00:20:42,300 Speaker 2: I'll use it however you want, but I need to 417 00:20:42,340 --> 00:20:43,739 Speaker 2: get to the other side of this. Please help me. 418 00:20:44,020 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 2: And then I said to him, I don't think I'll 419 00:20:45,740 --> 00:20:48,340 Speaker 2: ever be able to trust a man again. And he said, 420 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:50,420 Speaker 2: you don't need to worry about that right now. You 421 00:20:50,460 --> 00:20:54,290 Speaker 2: just need to trust me. And that felt pivotal for 422 00:20:54,330 --> 00:20:57,790 Speaker 2: me in that, yes, I can trust you. I can 423 00:20:57,850 --> 00:21:00,689 Speaker 2: trust you. And so we can be hurt and trust 424 00:21:00,730 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 2: at the same time. We can feel sorrow and grief 425 00:21:05,140 --> 00:21:07,580 Speaker 2: and still have hope at the same time. They can 426 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,660 Speaker 2: coexist at the same time. So we know this is true, 427 00:21:11,180 --> 00:21:12,859 Speaker 2: but so much of it is about, this is a 428 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,030 Speaker 2: therapist hat I put on, but so much of it 429 00:21:15,070 --> 00:21:17,590 Speaker 2: is about where we put our focus. If I'm staring 430 00:21:17,790 --> 00:21:22,210 Speaker 2: long and hard at the injustice, at the unfairness, at 431 00:21:22,250 --> 00:21:24,750 Speaker 2: the wound, at the pain, at the grief, at the longing, 432 00:21:24,770 --> 00:21:28,340 Speaker 2: if I'm constantly staring at that, that's the main stage 433 00:21:28,380 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 2: of my life. And through the work of the Holy Spirit, 434 00:21:31,260 --> 00:21:33,430 Speaker 2: when we kind of leap over To the other side, 435 00:21:33,450 --> 00:21:35,869 Speaker 2: we're like, this is true. The pain is true. The grief, 436 00:21:35,890 --> 00:21:38,550 Speaker 2: the loss, the ache is true. Also, this is also true. 437 00:21:39,150 --> 00:21:39,990 Speaker 2: God is sovereign. 438 00:21:40,150 --> 00:21:40,790 Speaker 1: He is good. 439 00:21:41,070 --> 00:21:48,820 Speaker 2: He adores me. And he's working things out as a good, faithful, loving, pursuing, healing, 440 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 2: protecting father. I can trust him. And so where I 441 00:21:51,820 --> 00:21:54,219 Speaker 2: put my focus matters. And that's the CBT piece, the 442 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,139 Speaker 2: cognitive behavior therapy piece of where I put my focus 443 00:21:57,180 --> 00:21:59,340 Speaker 2: informs how I feel. So we need to be making 444 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 2: sure we're putting our focus on truth. and not some 445 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,899 Speaker 2: of the struggle that might be padded in this story 446 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:06,419 Speaker 2: of loss. 447 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: Gosh, that is so true. In fact, I was just 448 00:22:09,580 --> 00:22:14,490 Speaker 1: having a conversation with someone about a person that has 449 00:22:14,590 --> 00:22:18,830 Speaker 1: so focused on such, well, just negativity, that what has 450 00:22:18,970 --> 00:22:21,350 Speaker 1: ended up happening in this person's life is they have 451 00:22:21,410 --> 00:22:26,020 Speaker 1: become so bitter. It has absolutely changed the dynamic of 452 00:22:26,060 --> 00:22:31,380 Speaker 1: their personality. And it's very sad to watch because this 453 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,710 Speaker 1: person was a beautiful soul, but they just focused, as 454 00:22:34,750 --> 00:22:36,909 Speaker 1: you said, so much on like the lies and the 455 00:22:37,130 --> 00:22:40,500 Speaker 1: hurt and they just could never get past it. And 456 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:42,699 Speaker 1: I don't think any of us want that to be 457 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: true of our lives. But on the other hand, it's 458 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,270 Speaker 1: one thing to say, OK, so focus, focus on the truth. 459 00:22:49,470 --> 00:22:51,810 Speaker 1: Focus on don't focus on the wound. Don't focus on 460 00:22:51,830 --> 00:22:54,970 Speaker 1: the hardship. But oh, my gosh, Nicole, that's hard to do. 461 00:22:55,369 --> 00:22:57,790 Speaker 2: It's so hard. It's so because grief is so powerful 462 00:22:57,810 --> 00:23:00,430 Speaker 2: and so alluring. And what's happened to us is so painful. 463 00:23:00,530 --> 00:23:01,669 Speaker 2: It is so hard. 464 00:23:02,170 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 1: It's all consuming. OK, so if somebody's like, oh, yes, 465 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 1: I can't get my mind off of it. What would 466 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 1: you tell that person to do? 467 00:23:09,910 --> 00:23:11,260 Speaker 2: Okay, so you want to interrupt it. You want to 468 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:12,500 Speaker 2: put a cog in the wheels. This is what you 469 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 2: need to do. So those ruminations, those ruminations can be stopped, 470 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 2: but they're going to take effort. But here's the other 471 00:23:18,220 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 2: part of this, Donna, is like sometimes our grief and 472 00:23:19,940 --> 00:23:21,939 Speaker 2: what's happened to us can become an idol. It can 473 00:23:21,980 --> 00:23:26,109 Speaker 2: be so part of our identity that we almost sometimes 474 00:23:26,150 --> 00:23:28,870 Speaker 2: feel like it's a betrayal of ourselves or what's happened 475 00:23:29,130 --> 00:23:31,609 Speaker 2: or the other person or whatever if we get on 476 00:23:31,690 --> 00:23:33,790 Speaker 2: with our lives or we move forward or whatever the 477 00:23:33,850 --> 00:23:35,630 Speaker 2: term is. But I don't know if there's ever like 478 00:23:35,670 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 2: getting on from a tragedy or trauma or whatever it 479 00:23:38,140 --> 00:23:40,730 Speaker 2: might be, but It's not a betrayal. And I hear 480 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:42,340 Speaker 2: this a lot from people who have lost a loved 481 00:23:42,380 --> 00:23:44,360 Speaker 2: one to death as they say, if I'm doing okay, 482 00:23:44,380 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 2: then isn't that a betrayal of the love? Isn't that 483 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,959 Speaker 2: a betrayal of this person? No, you can love and 484 00:23:50,020 --> 00:23:52,340 Speaker 2: be well at the same time. You can grieve and 485 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 2: move forward and be well at the same time. So 486 00:23:54,619 --> 00:23:57,740 Speaker 2: it's not a betrayal. So we want to put a 487 00:23:57,780 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 2: cog in the wheel. And there are some things that 488 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:01,360 Speaker 2: are really helpful in the putting the cogs in the wheels. 489 00:24:01,700 --> 00:24:04,679 Speaker 2: So when you're caught up in the ruminations, There are 490 00:24:04,740 --> 00:24:07,060 Speaker 2: some really practical tips that we can do. And we 491 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 2: talk about distraction as a bad thing, but distraction is 492 00:24:09,820 --> 00:24:12,939 Speaker 2: actually a really solid therapeutic strategy. When you are in 493 00:24:12,980 --> 00:24:15,859 Speaker 2: a rumination, it's not a bad thing to distract yourself. 494 00:24:15,900 --> 00:24:17,380 Speaker 2: And there are some things that are better than others. 495 00:24:17,500 --> 00:24:20,510 Speaker 2: And believe it or not, like a physical activity is 496 00:24:20,930 --> 00:24:24,090 Speaker 2: magic when you're in a rumination. And 10 jumping jacks 497 00:24:24,130 --> 00:24:26,929 Speaker 2: will actually do it. That's it. Burpees are better if 498 00:24:26,970 --> 00:24:28,070 Speaker 2: you can do it, but I have a hard time 499 00:24:28,109 --> 00:24:30,010 Speaker 2: getting back up off the floor. But if you can 500 00:24:30,190 --> 00:24:33,369 Speaker 2: actually do some sort of like quick action physical activity, 501 00:24:33,410 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 2: you will bump yourself out of the rumination. There's this 502 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,490 Speaker 2: really cool strategy I do with folks sometimes when they're 503 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:40,900 Speaker 2: feeling that rumination or anxiety is creeping up. I call 504 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 2: it the squat and drink. It's a weird one. But 505 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,500 Speaker 2: if you actually like get yourself a cup of water 506 00:24:45,900 --> 00:24:48,100 Speaker 2: and you squat down on your kind of like balancing 507 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 2: on your tippy toes and drink that water, you actually 508 00:24:50,980 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 2: break the cycle of the ruminations. 509 00:24:53,460 --> 00:24:54,220 Speaker 1: It's amazing. 510 00:24:54,740 --> 00:24:56,929 Speaker 2: It's incredible, but it's just a cute little strategy that 511 00:24:57,050 --> 00:25:00,870 Speaker 2: actually works. God's also given us our senses. So go 512 00:25:00,950 --> 00:25:04,690 Speaker 2: move your body. Go suck on a lifesaver and notice 513 00:25:04,730 --> 00:25:06,989 Speaker 2: the lifesaver. Notice what you see when you go for 514 00:25:07,030 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: a walk. Let yourself breathe in some, I always have 515 00:25:09,820 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 2: in my office, I always have like some scents like 516 00:25:12,619 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 2: eucalyptus or lavender or something like a citrus. And just 517 00:25:16,580 --> 00:25:20,390 Speaker 2: the smell of that actually settles our amygdala a little 518 00:25:20,410 --> 00:25:22,389 Speaker 2: bit and it can calm us down in that moment 519 00:25:22,430 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 2: of ruminations. So ruminations can actually be, we can bump 520 00:25:25,780 --> 00:25:27,619 Speaker 2: out of those, but what we want to do, because 521 00:25:27,660 --> 00:25:30,260 Speaker 2: very luring and we're creating those neural pathways, the more 522 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,820 Speaker 2: we think about something, the deeper those neural pathways get. 523 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 2: So we have a responsibility to kind of hop out 524 00:25:35,540 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 2: of that, create different neural pathways. So doing some of 525 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:43,290 Speaker 2: those exercises, play some worship music, call a friend, ask 526 00:25:43,310 --> 00:25:46,110 Speaker 2: your friends to send you scripture. I like to write 527 00:25:46,150 --> 00:25:48,730 Speaker 2: out scripture. highlight the words that jump out, ask the 528 00:25:48,770 --> 00:25:50,910 Speaker 2: Lord why those have jumped out at me today. Those 529 00:25:50,970 --> 00:25:53,709 Speaker 2: types of strategies create new neural pathways that are going 530 00:25:53,730 --> 00:25:56,370 Speaker 2: to help us have healthier thinking patterns. 531 00:25:57,070 --> 00:25:59,180 Speaker 1: I love that. And I love it really in conjunction 532 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,580 Speaker 1: with something you said earlier, that we have to allow 533 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,740 Speaker 1: ourselves to grieve when we lose the life that we wanted. 534 00:26:04,940 --> 00:26:08,820 Speaker 1: But there's a difference between, okay, now I'm lamenting, I'm praying, 535 00:26:08,859 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: I'm pouring out my heart to the Lord, I'm allowing 536 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: myself to process this. And those moments when we're just 537 00:26:15,980 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: caught in that cycle where we're ruminating over and over 538 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 1: and over again, there's no positive end to that. And 539 00:26:22,260 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: I'm just guessing that everybody listening, they feel that in 540 00:26:24,780 --> 00:26:27,740 Speaker 1: their gut. We know when we're spiraling and it doesn't 541 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,220 Speaker 1: go up to happy land. It goes in a place 542 00:26:30,260 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: that's really not helpful. 543 00:26:31,740 --> 00:26:34,590 Speaker 2: It's not helpful. And so a narrative therapy strategy that 544 00:26:34,619 --> 00:26:36,630 Speaker 2: I love is this kind of like this or that 545 00:26:36,670 --> 00:26:39,420 Speaker 2: mentality is around like, does this thinking work? heal me 546 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 2: or hurt me? Does this thinking help me or harm me? 547 00:26:43,220 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 2: Does this thinking and this line of rumination, does it 548 00:26:45,859 --> 00:26:48,620 Speaker 2: grow me more towards the Lord or who he's called 549 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,490 Speaker 2: me to be or to the woman that I want 550 00:26:50,510 --> 00:26:53,050 Speaker 2: to be? Or does it cause me to feel further away, 551 00:26:53,490 --> 00:26:56,850 Speaker 2: more bitter, more resentful, whatever that might be? So this 552 00:26:56,890 --> 00:27:00,370 Speaker 2: or that. Now, here's the problem. Sometimes the ruminations feel powerful. 553 00:27:00,450 --> 00:27:03,619 Speaker 2: Sometimes they feel very justified, especially when we have been wronged, 554 00:27:03,859 --> 00:27:05,580 Speaker 2: whether it's by somebody else or by God, right? We 555 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 2: feel like we've been wronged by God. We feel like 556 00:27:07,540 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 2: we've been wronged by somebody else. And we can spin 557 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 2: in those rage steps, those rage fantasies, those rage cycles 558 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,959 Speaker 2: that we just like loop on this, like, again, it's 559 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 2: causing a neural pathway. And so that neural pathway is 560 00:27:18,619 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 2: hard to get out of. So every time we do that, 561 00:27:20,540 --> 00:27:23,199 Speaker 2: we're actually harming ourself further. So in some ways, it's 562 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,030 Speaker 2: about pulling yourself out of the now and asking, what 563 00:27:26,050 --> 00:27:28,350 Speaker 2: would my one-year-older self want me to do right now? 564 00:27:28,910 --> 00:27:31,429 Speaker 2: What would my six-month-old, when it's not as sharp as 565 00:27:31,490 --> 00:27:33,470 Speaker 2: it feels right now, and I'm a little bit further 566 00:27:33,530 --> 00:27:35,889 Speaker 2: away from it, what would she or he want me 567 00:27:35,930 --> 00:27:38,260 Speaker 2: to do Right now, she'd want me to go for 568 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,010 Speaker 2: a walk. She'd want me to call a friend that 569 00:27:40,050 --> 00:27:41,909 Speaker 2: I know isn't going to just run the cycle with me, 570 00:27:41,930 --> 00:27:44,109 Speaker 2: but is going to pray for me or remind me 571 00:27:44,130 --> 00:27:46,550 Speaker 2: of God's goodness or just take me for coffee and 572 00:27:46,590 --> 00:27:48,370 Speaker 2: get me out of the loop. What would my older 573 00:27:48,430 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 2: self want me to do? And that strategy is actually 574 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 2: really helpful. But sometimes we don't want to get out 575 00:27:53,700 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 2: of the loop. And I don't know about you, but 576 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 2: that's all about adulting. Doing adulting stuff is about doing 577 00:27:58,780 --> 00:28:00,500 Speaker 2: what you don't want to do. And so sometimes we 578 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,570 Speaker 2: have to just say, I don't want this to become 579 00:28:02,590 --> 00:28:04,230 Speaker 2: an idol. I don't want it to become a habit. 580 00:28:04,390 --> 00:28:06,550 Speaker 2: I don't want this to be habitual thinking. Yes, this 581 00:28:06,609 --> 00:28:08,730 Speaker 2: is harmful. Yes, this has been hurtful to me. Yes, 582 00:28:08,770 --> 00:28:11,830 Speaker 2: it's been life rearranging. It still exists whether or not 583 00:28:11,890 --> 00:28:13,950 Speaker 2: I ruminate on it. I'm going to grieve it in 584 00:28:13,990 --> 00:28:15,869 Speaker 2: a healthy way. And I'm also going to let myself 585 00:28:15,970 --> 00:28:18,810 Speaker 2: do what I can to be well. Wow, Nicole, this 586 00:28:18,910 --> 00:28:21,609 Speaker 2: is so good. So, so, so good. 587 00:28:21,830 --> 00:28:25,270 Speaker 1: Practical and biblical. And, you know, even as you were talking, 588 00:28:25,310 --> 00:28:27,790 Speaker 1: I was thinking about that scripture. In Philippians, it says, 589 00:28:27,830 --> 00:28:31,580 Speaker 1: whatever is true, whatever is lovely, what is excellent, if 590 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: there is anything praised, really mind dwell on these things. 591 00:28:35,900 --> 00:28:38,780 Speaker 1: And I think the Lord was really just giving us 592 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,970 Speaker 1: a prescription 2,000 years ago that you're talking about right now. 593 00:28:44,150 --> 00:28:46,950 Speaker 1: It's like, okay, you can't just be in that constant 594 00:28:46,990 --> 00:28:47,830 Speaker 1: loop always. 595 00:28:48,530 --> 00:28:51,410 Speaker 2: Right. Think on things that are of him, of above, 596 00:28:51,470 --> 00:28:55,110 Speaker 2: like that is the prescription. That's the new neural pathways 597 00:28:55,190 --> 00:28:57,020 Speaker 2: is think on things that are good and holy and 598 00:28:57,060 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 2: praiseworthy and true. That's the new neural pathway. And that's 599 00:29:00,860 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 2: hard to do. It's painfully hard to do. So this 600 00:29:03,260 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 2: isn't minimizing anybody's experience at all. This is potentially what 601 00:29:06,820 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 2: you're going through right now is the worst thing you 602 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,450 Speaker 2: have ever been through. It might even be the worst 603 00:29:11,470 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 2: thing you will ever go through. and I am so 604 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 2: sorry that you are going through this. And while that 605 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,980 Speaker 2: is true, there's hope. While that is true, there's trust 606 00:29:20,020 --> 00:29:21,900 Speaker 2: and faith in Jesus. It's not always going to feel 607 00:29:21,940 --> 00:29:24,330 Speaker 2: this way, and both can be true. This can be 608 00:29:24,350 --> 00:29:26,970 Speaker 2: incredibly hard, and God can be incredibly good at the 609 00:29:27,010 --> 00:29:30,610 Speaker 2: same time. And so just letting yourself do the grief work, 610 00:29:31,250 --> 00:29:35,130 Speaker 2: noticing the pain, being proactive about addressing and doing the 611 00:29:35,170 --> 00:29:38,190 Speaker 2: heavy lifting of grief, and then also trusting Jesus to 612 00:29:38,210 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 2: get you through to the other side. He's a man 613 00:29:40,060 --> 00:29:43,180 Speaker 2: of sorrows. He's acquainted with grief. He understands. He's counting 614 00:29:43,220 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 2: our tears. He knows what we're going through. And so 615 00:29:45,500 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 2: the closer we lean up to him, the more we 616 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,860 Speaker 2: cling to him, the softer this is going to feel 617 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:50,620 Speaker 2: every time. 618 00:29:51,300 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: I love the way you said that. The closer we 619 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,340 Speaker 1: lean on him, the softer this is going to feel. Oh, 620 00:29:56,580 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: that is so good. Nicole, as we're closing up here, 621 00:29:59,700 --> 00:30:02,420 Speaker 1: is there anything, gosh, I could talk to you all day, 622 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,010 Speaker 1: but I suppose that's why we buy your book. 623 00:30:05,790 --> 00:30:06,630 Speaker 2: This is fun, Donna. 624 00:30:06,690 --> 00:30:09,290 Speaker 1: I love talking with you about this. Is there anything 625 00:30:09,330 --> 00:30:11,750 Speaker 1: that you're thinking, oh, I wish I was able to 626 00:30:11,810 --> 00:30:15,510 Speaker 1: have communicated this to that person that is maybe feeling 627 00:30:15,530 --> 00:30:17,270 Speaker 1: like this is not the life I wanted? 628 00:30:17,290 --> 00:30:20,500 Speaker 2: I think what I would want to say is that 629 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,570 Speaker 2: what I have learned is that An eternal perspective helps 630 00:30:25,070 --> 00:30:29,190 Speaker 2: navigate what Lisa Turkers calls life between two gardens. And 631 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,140 Speaker 2: we have the Garden of Eden over here and we 632 00:30:31,180 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 2: have the Garden of Heaven over here. And this little 633 00:30:33,580 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 2: blip in here is hard. The Bible tells us, Jesus 634 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,540 Speaker 2: tells us, in this world, you will have trouble. You'll 635 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,540 Speaker 2: have tribulation. This is hard down here. But then he says, 636 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 2: take heart. I've overcome the world. And I think the 637 00:30:47,380 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 2: landing spot has to be the bigger picture. The grander 638 00:30:51,500 --> 00:30:54,980 Speaker 2: perspective has to be that eternal perspective. Life between the 639 00:30:55,060 --> 00:30:57,940 Speaker 2: two gardens is hard. The good news is Jesus wins. 640 00:30:58,420 --> 00:31:00,860 Speaker 2: We get to the other side and he will use 641 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,540 Speaker 2: your story for good to bless others. Just like Joseph, 642 00:31:04,580 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 2: we love the story of Joseph and that he was 643 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,500 Speaker 2: intended to harm me. God used for good. May we 644 00:31:09,580 --> 00:31:12,020 Speaker 2: be able to just stand with him and say, God, 645 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 2: I don't understand, but I trust you use this for 646 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 2: good in whatever way that looks. When we can keep 647 00:31:17,770 --> 00:31:20,270 Speaker 2: that perspective, again, the edges softened. 648 00:31:20,750 --> 00:31:23,210 Speaker 1: That's so good. That's so good. Nicole, even just talking 649 00:31:23,370 --> 00:31:26,850 Speaker 1: to you right now, I'm realizing like your edges are 650 00:31:26,890 --> 00:31:30,290 Speaker 1: soft and I can tell there's a freedom about you. 651 00:31:30,310 --> 00:31:32,820 Speaker 1: I mean, wouldn't that be just so great for that 652 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:34,580 Speaker 1: to be said of all of us? Like our edges 653 00:31:34,660 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: are soft and we live free. Amen. 654 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,780 Speaker 2: What a beautiful mic drop that is, Donna. 655 00:31:40,820 --> 00:31:44,810 Speaker 1: That's beautiful. That's beautiful. So while we are going to 656 00:31:44,830 --> 00:31:47,210 Speaker 1: encourage everyone to get a copy of your book, tell 657 00:31:47,250 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: us again the name and where we can get a 658 00:31:49,690 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: copy of it and maybe how people can connect with 659 00:31:52,380 --> 00:31:52,860 Speaker 1: you as well. 660 00:31:53,300 --> 00:31:55,620 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for that. So again, my book is 661 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,740 Speaker 2: This Isn't the Story I Wanted, Grieving the Life You 662 00:31:58,780 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 2: Lost and Trusting the God Who Stays. It's available on 663 00:32:01,830 --> 00:32:03,990 Speaker 2: Amazon and all the places that you can buy books. 664 00:32:04,490 --> 00:32:08,610 Speaker 2: Also right now on my website, NicoleLangman.com, I'm giving away 665 00:32:08,790 --> 00:32:12,110 Speaker 2: a five-day devotional that kind of accompanies the book itself. 666 00:32:12,170 --> 00:32:13,790 Speaker 2: So it's kind of in line with that a little 667 00:32:13,830 --> 00:32:16,030 Speaker 2: bit deeper into some of the stories. But every chapter 668 00:32:16,050 --> 00:32:19,090 Speaker 2: has therapeutic takeaways and journal prompts and things that people 669 00:32:19,130 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 2: can also do some of the work themselves in their 670 00:32:21,780 --> 00:32:23,700 Speaker 2: own living room or their bedroom or wherever it is 671 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,700 Speaker 2: where they're reading. And also, of course, on socials, Instagram 672 00:32:26,740 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 2: and Facebook, I love connecting with women in those platforms. 673 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,180 Speaker 2: We've got such a lovely community going and where people 674 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 2: are encouraging each other. And I'm kind of dropping different 675 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,540 Speaker 2: devotionals from time to time as well. So it would 676 00:32:36,580 --> 00:32:38,930 Speaker 2: be great. I'd love to connect further. And I'm also 677 00:32:38,950 --> 00:32:40,770 Speaker 2: letting people know that if there's ever a time that 678 00:32:40,790 --> 00:32:44,450 Speaker 2: they want prayer, they can email me. Hope at NicoleLangman.com 679 00:32:44,670 --> 00:32:46,370 Speaker 2: is just kind of my prayer line and they can 680 00:32:46,410 --> 00:32:48,620 Speaker 2: just send me their prayer requests and know that I 681 00:32:48,660 --> 00:32:50,900 Speaker 2: will read it and pray for what it is that 682 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 2: they're asking for prayer for. 683 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:54,900 Speaker 1: I am so glad that you have been on the 684 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: show and I can count you now as a new friend. 685 00:32:58,420 --> 00:33:01,830 Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us and may 686 00:33:01,850 --> 00:33:05,170 Speaker 1: the Lord bless every bit of what he is doing 687 00:33:05,250 --> 00:33:05,690 Speaker 1: in your life. 688 00:33:06,030 --> 00:33:07,910 Speaker 2: Thank you, Donna. What a pleasure. It has been such 689 00:33:07,950 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 2: a treat. Thank you for having me. 690 00:33:10,150 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 1: Well, wasn't that a great interview? I hope that it 691 00:33:13,540 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: blessed you. I hope that it was just what you needed. 692 00:33:16,780 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: And as a reminder, follow me on Instagram, Donna A. Jones, Facebook, 693 00:33:20,780 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 1: Donna Jones Speaker and Author, and jump over to my website, donnajones.org. 694 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: And as always, my friend, I can't wait to see 695 00:33:29,180 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: you next time for That's Just What I Needed.