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Speaker 1: Life audio.

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Speaker 2: We kind of tend to think about substance. You says

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Speaker 2: right and wrong, and if people are using, they don't

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Speaker 2: understand right and wrong, or they don't care about right

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Speaker 2: and wrong, and we have to like and force right

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Speaker 2: and wrong to them, which I think is a complete

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Speaker 2: misunderstanding of what's going on. So we end up trying

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Speaker 2: to punish people out of something that they're engaging in

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Speaker 2: because they're already in some other type of pain inside,

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Speaker 2: which doesn't work. You can't traumatize people out of trauma.

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Speaker 2: You can't punish people out of pain. It does not

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Speaker 2: work and it will never work to solve addiction.

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Speaker 3: Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Confessions of a Christian

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Speaker 3: Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel. This is

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Speaker 3: your home for real stories, radical vulnerability, and remarkable come

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Speaker 3: back in the end, this podcast is a place for

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Speaker 3: the desperate, the downtrodden, the destitute, and especially the drunk.

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Speaker 3: But it's also a place of hope and healing. I

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Speaker 3: know that firsthand because I'm the Christian who became an alcoholic,

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Speaker 3: not the other way around. Today, I've found sobriety after

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Speaker 3: decades of struggling. But more importantly than finding sobriety I

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Speaker 3: found Jesus.

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Speaker 4: My prayer is that as I.

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Speaker 3: Interview people just like you and just like me, along

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Speaker 3: with professionals in the fields of trauma, faith and addiction recovery,

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Speaker 3: you will find the peace that is available to you

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Speaker 3: through Christ on the other side of whatever you're going

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Speaker 3: through and whatever addiction that might be, because let's face it,

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Speaker 3: we're all addicted to something so welcome, let's get radically

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Speaker 3: vulnerable as we explore what it looks like to be

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Speaker 3: on this journey of messy sanctification. You know, I really

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Speaker 3: struggle with people who say I don't have any regrets.

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Speaker 3: I think I've said this before, but I really want

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Speaker 3: to hone in on it here. You know, people are like,

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Speaker 3: you know, yeah, I just I just I live live

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Speaker 3: with no regrets, you know, And I'm like, it's such

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Speaker 3: bull crap. Everyone has regrets. And I would say, if

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Speaker 3: you don't, maybe you're a psychopath. Like quote me on that,

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Speaker 3: because if you have gone through life and and not

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Speaker 3: done anything you regret, like then you have a very

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Speaker 3: high view of yourself, like you're maybe narcissistic because you

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Speaker 3: don't think you're wrong. Now, I think when people say

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Speaker 3: I don't have any regrets. What they're perhaps, if I

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Speaker 3: were to be gracious and generous and give them the

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Speaker 3: benefit of the doubt, is that they're saying, I'm not

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Speaker 3: living my life out of regret. Well, that's good, you know.

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Speaker 3: I don't think we should live our lives out of regret, right,

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Speaker 3: because that's really shame and we shouldn't do that. But

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Speaker 3: to go through life and think, yeah, you know what,

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Speaker 3: everything just worked out the way it should be, and

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Speaker 3: you know that's fine, I don't think that's healthy.

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Speaker 4: I have regrets.

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Speaker 3: One of my biggest regrets is not understanding addiction in

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Speaker 3: the way that I understand it now, not understanding grace

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Speaker 3: in the way I understand it now, not understanding how

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Speaker 3: trauma affects people the way that I do now, And

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Speaker 3: because of that, treating my sister. I have two sisters,

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Speaker 3: but the one that was about a year and a half,

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Speaker 3: two years older than me, treating her as a leper,

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Speaker 3: as a pariah, as getting so angry and frustrated with

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Speaker 3: her for why she could not just stop the drugs,

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Speaker 3: why she could not just stop the lifestyle, why she

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Speaker 3: could not just get away from the abuser, why she

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Speaker 3: could not just stop the same cycles and patterns and

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Speaker 3: ostracizing her. Treating her is less than telling myself I

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Speaker 3: will never do that, I will never be that, I

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Speaker 3: will never treat people the way she has treated our family,

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Speaker 3: and then becoming that person different drug maybe looked a

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Speaker 3: little different, but then being that. And so I wish

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Speaker 3: that I could have that conversation with her and say,

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Speaker 3: I get it, I understand it. Don't excuse it, but

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Speaker 3: I understand it. I understand that we medicate things, we

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Speaker 3: self medicate things, that there are root issues, that there

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Speaker 3: is sin and brokenness in this world, things that you

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Speaker 3: have done, but things that have been done to you

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Speaker 3: that you can't stand about yourself and can't make sense of.

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Speaker 3: And I get it, and I want to let you

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Speaker 3: know that there is a solution that will never let

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Speaker 3: you down, that won't just give you a high and

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Speaker 3: then leave you wanting more. I wish I could have

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Speaker 3: that conversation with her.

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Speaker 4: I can't because she's passed away.

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Speaker 3: And even though it wasn't specifically the drugs that killed her,

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Speaker 3: it was the lifestyle. And so she was killed in

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Speaker 3: a car accident on the interstate where someone else who

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Speaker 3: we believe was high across the center median and struck

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Speaker 3: her vehicle, the vehicle that she was in and going

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Speaker 3: said many plus miles an hour, and her, the person

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Speaker 3: that was driving her, the car that she was in,

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Speaker 3: and and the person who crossed the center line all

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Speaker 3: day and they were coming back from trying to find

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Speaker 3: some stupid part for her car because again, like she

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Speaker 3: had squandered so much money away. My mom had given

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Speaker 3: her money for car repairs that she would then use

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Speaker 3: on drugs. And so now she's forced to like go

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Speaker 3: to the junk yard and try to you know, coerce

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Speaker 3: people into giving her a deal. And she doesn't have

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Speaker 3: a ride, and so she's with someone, and so again

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Speaker 3: like not exactly the drugs per se, it wasn't an overdose,

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Speaker 3: but it was the lifestyle that she was in. And

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Speaker 3: I regret not being able to just hold her hand,

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Speaker 3: sit across from her and say, Jenny, I get it,

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Speaker 3: and I'm you.

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Speaker 1: You're me.

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Speaker 3: I say all that as an introduction, because the person

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Speaker 3: that I'm interviewing today, her name is Christina Dent, and

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Speaker 3: I wish I would have had her book, you know,

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Speaker 3: ten twenty years ago. Christina is not someone who has

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Speaker 3: struggled with addiction herself. But her story in her book,

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Speaker 3: which was a Book of the Year, is about how

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Speaker 3: through fostering in the Deep South, she was introduced to

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Speaker 3: the to the to the birth mom of her foster child,

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Speaker 3: and she had kind of these preconceived notions about what

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Speaker 3: it looked like to be an addict and what that meant.

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Speaker 3: And what she found is that those notions were incorrect.

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Speaker 3: That you know, what she had said was, well, this

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Speaker 3: birth mom just doesn't love this child, doesn't want this child,

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Speaker 3: just wants the drugs. More was not true. That there

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Speaker 3: were other things going on, and that with all of

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Speaker 3: who this birth mom was, she wanted to stop and

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Speaker 3: she couldn't. And so she wrote this book called Curious.

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Speaker 3: She started this organization called End It for Good, which

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Speaker 3: basically is like it's a nonprofit and says, hey, maybe

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Speaker 3: the punitive measures that we've taken for decades in order

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Speaker 3: to punish people for drug use, substance use and whatnot,

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Speaker 3: maybe maybe there's a different way. Maybe you know, we're

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Speaker 3: not really getting to the root of their issues by

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Speaker 3: just punishing them, and that behavior modification isn't the route.

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Speaker 3: And so, as someone who believes in gospel senator recovery.

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Speaker 3: I'm all about that, right, Like, are there consequences for

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Speaker 3: our actions? Yes, But in the end, my ultimate goal

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Speaker 3: is not that someone would pay the price. My ultimate

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Speaker 3: goal is that someone would meet Jesus and get to

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Speaker 3: the underlying issues. Because, as Christina has said, and as

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Speaker 3: I have even found out since or over the last

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Speaker 3: couple of weeks, it's like you go to a prison

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Speaker 3: and it's like the access that you have to drugs

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Speaker 3: and substances and whatnot is like sometimes even just more

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Speaker 3: accessible than when you were on the street. And so

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Speaker 3: Christina is going to talk about her story. We're going

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Speaker 3: to talk about some really important things. We're going to

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Speaker 3: talk about some concepts. We're going to talk.

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Speaker 4: About that phrase addiction.

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Speaker 3: Is not a moral failure, you know, and I've struggled

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Speaker 3: with that phrase, and so we're going to talk about that.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's kind of a different thought that I

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Speaker 3: have during this interview that i'd love to hear your

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Speaker 3: thoughts on. So that's a lot, but I need to

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Speaker 3: set it up because it's also a very deep personal story.

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Speaker 3: And so Christina Dent is someone who's become a really

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Speaker 3: good friend, and I would love for you to just

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Speaker 3: listen to this interview with open years and an open

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Speaker 3: heart without further ado. Christina, Christina, thank you so much

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Speaker 3: for joining the Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic podcast. We've

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Speaker 3: it's you know, I think I got sick last time.

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Speaker 3: We had to reschedule and it was like, oh man,

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Speaker 3: because and I was bummed because I'm was really I'm

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Speaker 3: really looking forward to this conversation because I think it's

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Speaker 3: something that I get asked about a lot, which is

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Speaker 3: friends and family members who don't struggle but don't know

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Speaker 3: what to do. And you literally wrote a book kind

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Speaker 3: of about your experience of coming to understand addiction better

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Speaker 3: and how we can you know, as a society and

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Speaker 3: the church do better, and.

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Speaker 4: So you know, the book is behind you.

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Speaker 3: But I ran down to get my kindled because I

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Speaker 3: wanted to hold up the cover for those that are watching.

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Speaker 3: But it's called Curious, and of course that's not showing up.

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Speaker 3: Oh there we go. Curious, a foster mom's discovery of

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Speaker 3: an unexpected solution to drugs and addiction, which we're going

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Speaker 3: to talk all about today. So thank you for coming

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Speaker 3: on the on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thanks John, I'm really excited to be here. I love

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Speaker 2: your work and your ministry and thankful for a chance

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Speaker 2: to sit down and have a chat.

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Speaker 4: Great.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, I think before we get into your story,

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Speaker 3: why don't you just kind of give a brief overview

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Speaker 3: of who you are, where you are, and what you do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, I am born and raised in Mississippi. I've lived

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Speaker 2: here my whole life, and I am a mother to

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Speaker 2: three wonderful sons. I've got some teenagers and there middle schooler.

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Speaker 2: I've been married to my husband for twenty one years.

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Speaker 2: We just celebrated our twenty first anniversary last week. I

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Speaker 2: met in college, got married as a college senior at

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Speaker 2: the very young, naive age of twenty one, and am

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Speaker 2: very thankful that we have been able to grow together

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Speaker 2: and not a part. And I know that's a huge gift,

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Speaker 2: and so I'm really thankful for my husband and I

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Speaker 2: also So that's what that's kind of my outside world.

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Speaker 2: My inside world with my work is I'm the founder

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Speaker 2: of Endit for Good. We are a nonprofit started in

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Speaker 2: twenty nineteen after kind of what I describe in the book,

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Speaker 2: these experiences as a foster parent in the years preceding

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Speaker 2: that really helped open my heart and that started me

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Speaker 2: on a learning journey that really changed my mind about

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Speaker 2: how we approach drugs and addiction and people who are

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Speaker 2: using substances, and that led to founding this nonprofit and

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Speaker 2: the work that we do is primarily education and advocacy,

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Speaker 2: inviting people to understand addiction then to rethink how we

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Speaker 2: approach that in culture and in policy. So we're always

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Speaker 2: thinking about those two things together. So we want to

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Speaker 2: talk to legislators and mayors and other people in places

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Speaker 2: of leadership that affect the policies of how we approach

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Speaker 2: substance use and addiction. We also want to talk to

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Speaker 2: just everyday people because almost every family in America has

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Speaker 2: one in it who is struggling with a substance use disorder,

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Speaker 2: which means there's a bunch of people around them that

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Speaker 2: are impacted by that. And so we want and we

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Speaker 2: see deep value in contributing positively to the toolkit that

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Speaker 2: families and loved ones have as they walk with their

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Speaker 2: loved one. But also to say, hey, some of these

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Speaker 2: problems that we're seeing in our society are actually created

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Speaker 2: by policies. Some of those policies are created by misunderstanding

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Speaker 2: about substance use and addiction. But there's value on both sides.

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Speaker 2: There's value on policy change. There's also value for people

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Speaker 2: who say, I don't want to change any policies, but

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Speaker 2: I sure do wish that my son could find a

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Speaker 2: path to recovery. We say, great, we hope that our

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Speaker 2: resources will help help you understand a little bit better

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Speaker 2: and maybe approach that in a way that is able

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Speaker 2: to partner with your son. I heard a mom describe

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Speaker 2: it recently as this shift for her relationship with her

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Speaker 2: daughter from we are adversaries at war over her addiction

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Speaker 2: to we are partners together fighting that addiction. And that

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Speaker 2: was a big shift for them and their relationship to

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Speaker 2: go from at each other to partnered against the thing

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Speaker 2: that was really destroying her life. And so that is

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Speaker 2: the professional workout that I do full time is just

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Speaker 2: inviting people into this conversation.

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Speaker 4: We do.

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Speaker 2: Interviews and writing and newspaper articles and all kinds of

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Speaker 2: things to get information out into the community. And then

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Speaker 2: we're always looking for opportunities to talk to leaders and

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Speaker 2: educate them as well on the policy changes.

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Speaker 1: So that is our work.

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Speaker 2: We started primarily in Mississippi, but we do work all

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Speaker 2: over the country now and a little bit of federal work,

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Speaker 2: although that is mostly through coalitions with other organizations because

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Speaker 2: we're still a small nonprofit. But a small can be mighty.

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Speaker 4: Let's hope. So right, I mean, I'm yeah quote now too.

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Speaker 2: Right, yes, yes, yes, and look, this is my Our

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Speaker 2: whole thing is every person's life matters, and so for

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Speaker 2: us we try to always keep that in front of

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Speaker 2: us with our work. Is it doesn't matter if you don't.

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Speaker 2: You know, there is so much pressure to like, go

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Speaker 2: change the world. I'm gonna go change the world. Well,

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Speaker 2: but very few of us, probably none of us that

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Speaker 2: are on this, listening to this or talking right now,

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Speaker 2: are going to change the world. That's that's a really

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Speaker 2: big weight to carry to feel like you are only

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Speaker 2: successful if you go change the world. Small things can

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Speaker 2: have big impacts in people's lives, life trajectory, and that

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Speaker 2: can impact generations of people after them. So don't despise

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Speaker 2: the small things. There is great value in individual impact

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Speaker 2: on individual lives. When you get to see that community impact,

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Speaker 2: that's really awesome. We've got to see some of that,

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Speaker 2: so excited. But that's not the only thing that's valuable.

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Speaker 2: Every single life, every single family is valuable to have

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Speaker 2: better tools and better able to love and walk with

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Speaker 2: loved ones who are struggling.

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Speaker 3: I'm excited to talk about some of the resources and

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Speaker 3: help that you offer to families.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I've said this before.

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Speaker 3: I'm working through I'm going through a discipleship program at

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Speaker 3: my own church, and we had to do an inventory

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Speaker 3: of like regrets, you know, and like shame, right, And

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Speaker 3: I think one of the biggest things that I am

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Speaker 3: still working through.

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Speaker 4: Is I would.

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Speaker 3: I would love to go back. My sister was a

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Speaker 3: drug addict for as long as I could remember. Maybe

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Speaker 3: I shouldn't say as long as I can remember, but

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Speaker 3: starting you know, she started using drugs in her teenage years,

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Speaker 3: early teens. And what you said about being an adversary

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Speaker 3: over her addiction was so true. It was so true

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Speaker 3: for my family, it was so true for me, and

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Speaker 3: and I just always like I because I didn't fully

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Speaker 3: understand it and couldn't, you know, wrap my head around

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Speaker 3: how lo and behold, I become an addict myself, right,

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Speaker 3: And now my sister's gone, and I just one of

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Speaker 3: my greatest regrets is not like that she's not still

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Speaker 3: here that I can go to her and say I

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Speaker 3: get it now, right, Like I get it now, I

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Speaker 3: understand it better. And I don't want to be your

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Speaker 3: adversary on this, but your partner. And it's just it's

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Speaker 3: one of my it's one of the regrets that it

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Speaker 3: not like it's interesting. It's more of like a grief now,

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Speaker 3: right of like I really wish she was here. I

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Speaker 3: really wish I could talk with her about it. I

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Speaker 3: really wish I could let her know. Hey, I you know,

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Speaker 3: I look down on you for so long and didn't

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Speaker 3: get you in and I became you and different substance.

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Speaker 3: But man, so it's it's one of the reasons I'm

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Speaker 3: excited to talk with you today and one of the

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Speaker 3: reasons I'm so supportive of the work that you're doing.

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Speaker 3: And so I would like to get to kind of

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Speaker 3: the story that you telling. Curious about how you personally,

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Speaker 3: you know, kind of came to understand and to reframe

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Speaker 3: your own thoughts on addiction and substance use. So I

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Speaker 3: know that's a big question, but I just kind of

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Speaker 3: want to turn it over to you because I think

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Speaker 3: there's probably gonna be a lot of people that resonate

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Speaker 3: with it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So my my experience growing up was conservative

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Speaker 2: Christian America in the Deep South and the fuckle of

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Speaker 2: the Bible Belt in Mississippi. I did not use substances

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Speaker 2: while I was growing up very much had that same

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Speaker 2: perspective that you shared about your sister With anybody that

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Speaker 2: I knew who was using substances.

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Speaker 1: It was just this.

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Speaker 2: Immediate downgrade and like, I look down on you. Why

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Speaker 2: are you making those decisions? Doesn't make any sense. That's dumb.

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Speaker 2: And not only that's dumb, but our culture has, whether

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Speaker 2: we recognize it or not, has painted addiction and substance

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Speaker 2: use always as a character deficiency. And so you use substances,

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Speaker 2: it's because your moral compass is not working.

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Speaker 1: You struggle with addiction.

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Speaker 2: It's because you have even more so degraded your character,

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Speaker 2: your integrity, and there are very real harmful behaviors that

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Speaker 2: can come with addiction. It can just destroy families because

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Speaker 2: addiction often leads to people acting against their own values.

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Speaker 2: And what you hear so much, yes, if you listen

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Speaker 2: to people who strugle with addiction is not I didn't

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Speaker 2: even care. It was I hated myself because I stole

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Speaker 2: that money from my mom. I hated myself for that

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Speaker 2: but I felt like I would die if I didn't.

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Speaker 2: I just had to get the next fix of whatever

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Speaker 2: it was.

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Speaker 4: Can I Can I pause there?

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Speaker 3: Because I think that is the best unpacking that that

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Speaker 3: last minute of and because I've struggled with this a

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Speaker 3: little bit too, because what you just said, a lot

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Speaker 3: of people sum up by saying, addiction is not a

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Speaker 3: moral failure, right, Well, I've always struggled with that because

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Speaker 3: I'm like, no, I was making bad choices right.

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Speaker 5: Right, like I morally really harmful stuff. Yeah, I was

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Speaker 5: morally making bad choices. I was morally sinning right like

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Speaker 5: I was so so I've always kind of been like, well,

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Speaker 5: it in some sense, it is a moral failure.

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Speaker 3: But I love the way that you unpacked it there, right.

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Speaker 3: So when you're talking about morality and more, you know,

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Speaker 3: choices is like, yes, but I'm making those against my

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Speaker 3: where my own moral compass is pointing me. And that

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Speaker 3: was so true in my life. I'm leading a church,

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Speaker 3: small group, I'm on stafford a church. I love Jesus,

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Speaker 3: I know Jesus, I profess Jesus, I want Jesus, and

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Speaker 3: yet I'm making these decisions that are antithetical to what

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Speaker 3: I know I believe in what my you know what

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Speaker 3: I'm saying, So I just really, I really want to

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Speaker 3: point that out because I think you're the first person

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Speaker 3: not shocking that has really I think unpacked that well.

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Speaker 4: And you did it in like sixty seconds. Thank you.

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Speaker 3: We'll be right back after this.

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Speaker 2: Well it it is hard fought wisdom from people who

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Speaker 2: have lived experience, who have shared that with me, of

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Speaker 2: just listening to their stories. If you listen, and you

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Speaker 2: I'm talking to people who are listening who don't have

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Speaker 2: an experience of addiction themselves, to listen to how people

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Speaker 2: describe themselves when they were in it or if they

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Speaker 2: are still in that time in their life of active addiction.

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Speaker 2: It is deep shame, deep regret, deep feelings of the

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Speaker 2: person that I want to be and am is different

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Speaker 2: than the person who is doing the things that I'm doing.

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Speaker 2: And I hate that gap. I hate myself for being

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Speaker 2: in that gap. I hate the things I'm doing, which

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Speaker 2: means for many people, I come to hate myself. I

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Speaker 2: just loathe who I am.

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Speaker 3: And by the way, what's the best way to get

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Speaker 3: over those feelings? You just use more.

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Speaker 1: Right, yes, very much, A yes.

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Speaker 2: Perpetuating cycle of it was hard to be present in

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Speaker 2: my world to begin with, but now there's a snowball

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Speaker 2: effect of more and more and more pain, And depending

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Speaker 2: on the experiences that you have in your addiction, that

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Speaker 2: can add significant new traumas and pain that are even

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Speaker 2: harder to overcome without the numbing of substances. Thinking about

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Speaker 2: you know, the vast majority of prostitution is related to

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Speaker 2: people who are addicted to a substance and trying to

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Speaker 2: get enough money to pay for the amount that they

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Speaker 2: need to just not be sick from withdrawals. So you

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Speaker 2: have people who are already struggling with whatever was the

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Speaker 2: underlying cause now engaging in something that is psychologically harmful.

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Speaker 2: Many people I know have shared stories of the amount

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Speaker 2: of abuse that they've experienced. Now you and I would

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Speaker 2: say that that very act is abusive to how God

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Speaker 2: made us to be to engage in prostitution, But even

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Speaker 2: within that, there is a whole lot of rape that happens,

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Speaker 2: lots of things that happen to people who are in

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Speaker 2: a really vulnerable position, And now they've got even more

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Speaker 2: on top of that that they're trying to cope with.

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Speaker 1: And so I think.

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Speaker 2: For people like me who don't have that lived experience.

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Speaker 2: Our first our first responses often just be like, well,

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Speaker 2: just stop doing it, Like if you don't like who

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Speaker 2: you are when you're doing it, just stop, which is

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Speaker 2: just so unhelpful. And so we would we need to

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Speaker 2: ask ourselves why don't they stop? Why? What is it

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Speaker 2: that keeps someone doing something for which they hate themselves for? Wow,

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Speaker 2: that must be a pretty powerful pull that someone would say,

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Speaker 2: I love my mother and I'm stealing money from her.

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Speaker 2: What is going on there? That's the question we knowed

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Speaker 2: got to be asking. It's it's not you know, well,

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Speaker 2: the drug is just the enemy. Now what is that

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Speaker 2: drug doing for that person that they feel that desperate

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Speaker 2: that they would do something that hurts one of the

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Speaker 2: people that they love the most. What's going on there underneath?

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Speaker 2: And that, for me was the beginning of my learning journey.

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Speaker 2: So that started with fostering, meeting the mother of one

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Speaker 2: of our foster sons. And so I had taken you know,

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Speaker 2: I was thirty by the time I met her. So

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Speaker 2: I had taken all of this kind of Evangelical America,

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Speaker 2: even outside of Evangelical America, just the way that people

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Speaker 2: talk about substance use in the us and all of.

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Speaker 1: That shame and blame and moral.

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Speaker 2: Corruption, and which, by the way, is where we get

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Speaker 2: the idea that people need to be punished, because if

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Speaker 2: it is a moral failing, if it's that they don't

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Speaker 2: have a moral compass, they need they need punishment to

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Speaker 2: teach them what's right. This is that we kind of

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Speaker 2: tend to think about substance use as right and wrong,

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Speaker 2: and if people are using, they don't understand right and wrong,

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Speaker 2: or they don't care about right and wrong, and we

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Speaker 2: have to like enforce right and wrong to them, which

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Speaker 2: I think is a complete misunderstanding of what's going on.

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Speaker 2: So we end up trying to punish people out of

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Speaker 2: something that they're already trying, that they're engaging in because

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Speaker 2: they're already in some other type of pain inside, which

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Speaker 2: doesn't work. You can't you can't traumatize people out of trauma.

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Speaker 2: You can't punish people out of pain. It does not work,

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Speaker 2: and it will never work to solve the addiction. And

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Speaker 2: I think that that goes to the work that I'm

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Speaker 2: trying to do.

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Speaker 3: Right is like when I talk about gospel centered recovery,

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Speaker 3: like when like it's not about behavior modification, right, like

437
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 3: what's not going to like you have to get at

438
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 3: the root in the heart.

439
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 4: Right and and and.

440
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 3: So if you know what you're seeing and what you've

441
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 3: done in your work is like, yeah, it's it's not

442
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,160
Speaker 3: just about like you know, Okay, now you're gonna get

443
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 3: punished for this, and now then all of a sudden,

444
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:00,919
Speaker 3: you're going to be batter Like, if you think the

445
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 3: punishment is what's going to make them better, you're missing that.

446
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 3: It's a heart level. It's a deeper issue, right, there's

447
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 3: something like you said, there's traumas, there's things that need

448
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 3: to be healed.

449
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 4: Like ah, so.

450
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, yes, you can't punish people into healing. It

451
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 2: just doesn't work.

452
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 4: Oh that's so good.

453
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 2: As much as there is and I hope people hear

454
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 2: this too, that they're they're definitely is a place for good.

455
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 2: Boundaries for healthy boundaries for natural consequences are comms. There's

456
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 2: there's lots of those in life that don't come from

457
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 2: proactively creating even more pain for someone or proactively disconnecting

458
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 2: all of their positive things in their life relationships and

459
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 2: jobs and housing and all of those kinds of things.

460
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 2: And so that for me, that the first kind of

461
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 2: disturbance in the matrix. For me of the way that

462
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 2: I grew up thinking about addiction was when I met Joanne,

463
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 2: the mother of our foster son, and she had been

464
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 2: using for twenty years by this point, also had started

465
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 2: using in her early teens and had not been able

466
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 2: to stop during her pregnancy. So her son was removed

467
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,360
Speaker 2: from her custody and brought to our house straight from

468
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 2: the hospital after he was born, and we became his

469
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 2: foster family. And a few days later I had a

470
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 2: chance to go meet her because I took her son, Beckham,

471
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 2: to go meet her at the local child welfare facility

472
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 2: and have their one hour visitation time. And so I

473
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 2: took him and got there and got his car seat

474
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,479
Speaker 2: out of the car and turned around to go in,

475
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 2: and here comes this woman running across the parking lot

476
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 2: towards me, tears streaming down her face, and she runs

477
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 2: over and she just starts kissing this baby and talking

478
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 2: to him. And this is my first meeting of Joanne,

479
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 2: and I don't have a category for that in the

480
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 2: understanding of addiction that I grew up with. So I

481
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 2: do what humans do when we come across something that

482
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 2: doesn't make sense to us. We just try to make

483
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 2: it makes sense in the framework we already have, which means,

484
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 2: for me, this isn't real. This is just her putting

485
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 2: on a show, because if she really loved her son,

486
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 2: she wouldn't have been using drugs.

487
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: While she was pregnant.

488
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 2: But what I saw that day is love, And what

489
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 2: I saw every day after that was love. She went

490
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 2: to inpatient drug treatment. She would call me, asked me

491
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 2: to put her on speakerphone, and she'd seen to him

492
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 2: over the phone.

493
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: And I just saw this.

494
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 2: Mother who loves her son just as much as I

495
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 2: love my sons, and she's struggling with a really serious addiction.

496
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 2: And she would say, she says today, at that point

497
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 2: in her life, she was not a safe place for

498
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 2: him to be. She could not take care of him

499
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 2: without dealing with her addiction. That was, it was not

500
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 2: functional in that kind of way. And so she is

501
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 2: the first to say that she needed that consequence of

502
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 2: that loss of custody. But in her situation, it was

503
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 2: only for a couple of weeks, and she actually was

504
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 2: able to go to a treatment center in North Mississippi.

505
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 2: We only have two of these in the whole state

506
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 2: that allow babies and children to be on site with

507
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 2: their parents while they're in drug treatment. They have a nursery,

508
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 2: they have on site childcare, children stay with their parents

509
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 2: at night in kind of dorm style housing, and they

510
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 2: still have all of the same requirements still, you know,

511
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 2: drug testing, all of the things, but they really value

512
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 2: the bond of parents with their children, and they value

513
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 2: parents learning how to live in sobriety while they're parenting,

514
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 2: instead of you go to treatment for three months and

515
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 2: you don't have the stressors of how do I deal

516
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 2: with my kid who was up them on the night

517
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 2: and then now they're throwing a fit and now I

518
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 2: gotta do all this stuff. And instead they're bringing that

519
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 2: together and saying, work through your treatment journey at the

520
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 2: same time that you're learning to parents, so that those

521
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 2: things are fused together, and when you leave here, you're

522
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 2: far more likely to be successful because you've been able

523
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 2: to practice that while you're here in treatment, and so

524
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 2: they were able to be reunited. But that started for

525
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 2: me this deep rethinking of wait a second, if Joanne

526
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 2: is not a terrible person, then what's really going on

527
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 2: with her addiction? And if there's anything that we've misunderstood

528
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 2: that impact is vast on society because the majority of

529
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 2: children in foster care there for a drug related reason.

530
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 2: Almost every family has somebody who's suffering with a drug addiction.

531
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 2: This impacts all of us, and that, for me, started

532
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 2: this learning journey. So it's kind of the my heart

533
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 2: was engaged first with Joanne and that turned into this

534
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 2: like mind engagement. My mom was a big lifelong learner.

535
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 2: She homeschooled me and all of my brothers kindergarten through

536
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: high school. That was her one thing she hoped to

537
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 2: get across to us was like keep learning, learn, read,

538
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 2: ask questions, and very much grew up in a kind

539
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 2: of just don't don't just get in a line because

540
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 2: there's a bunch of people standing in a line. Figure out,

541
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 2: is this where I need to be? Is this even

542
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 2: a line I need to be in? Are there two lines?

543
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 2: And nobody even knows about the second one?

544
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: I said just that.

545
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 2: Very much credit my parents with that kind of don't

546
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:47,719
Speaker 2: don't run away from things that make you uncomfortable, but

547
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 2: try to lean into that and try to try to learn.

548
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 2: Just because society believes something doesn't mean it was right.

549
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 2: How many other things has society believed? How many things

550
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 2: has the Church believed and supported in over hundreds of years.

551
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 2: You know, we had people, you know, crusades were killing

552
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,719
Speaker 2: each other because you don't believe what I believe. And

553
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 2: yet you know, we can look back at that today

554
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 2: and say, well, gosh, you know they were they really

555
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 2: missed the point. Well, what are we blind about today?

556
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 2: Where are our blind spots? The Church today has blind

557
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 2: spots every generation does, so what are ours? And I

558
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 2: think this is one of them that we have gotten

559
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 2: deeply wrong? And perhaps you know, as a Christian also,

560
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 2: I think the Church has has unfortunately played a really

561
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 2: harmful role in how long it has taken for us

562
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 2: to begin to approach addiction as a health crisis, because

563
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 2: the Church has been so deeply invested in that it

564
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 2: is primarily, and in some cases only, a spiritual crisis.

565
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 2: And so if you turn your life over to the Lord,

566
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 2: then that's going to be what allows you to become sober.

567
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,760
Speaker 2: And you and I both know there's tons of Christians

568
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 2: who are not sober who are struggling with addiction. There

569
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 2: are believers who love Jesus far more than I do,

570
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 2: who will struggle with that addiction until the day that

571
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 2: they die. That does not mean that they didn't love

572
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 2: the Lord, doesn't mean that they're not committed to him.

573
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 2: They're also struggling with one of the most complex health,

574
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 2: mental emotional crises that we know of. We still are

575
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: very little into our understanding of addiction and what all

576
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 2: of the components that go into compulsive behavior for humans,

577
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 2: because it's not just substances. It's processes like gambling, it's

578
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 2: processes like scrolling on your phone. It's all kinds of

579
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 2: different things. It's food, it's sugar, it's all kinds of stuff.

580
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 2: So I one of my hopes is for the Church

581
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 2: to be open to saying I want to help someone

582
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 2: live a healthy life if they already know Jesus, or

583
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 2: if they never know Jesus like I don't. And this

584
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 2: is one of the points I'm making curious, is I

585
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 2: think it's really harmful for the church to.

586
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 1: Hold to hold people.

587
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 2: It feels a little bit like a hostage situation of

588
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 2: like you must bow down to my king or you

589
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 2: will never be able to overcome your addiction.

590
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: Now, you and.

591
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 2: I both believe the best life, what we were created for,

592
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 2: is to bow to the king, like King Jesus. But

593
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 2: there are atheists who become sober, right, there are people

594
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 2: of many other faiths who find a path to sobriety.

595
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 2: And I think one of the ways that we can

596
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 2: love Jesus to other people is to help them to

597
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,399
Speaker 2: recognize that, yes, there are different needs that they have.

598
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,439
Speaker 2: One of those we would believe is a spiritual need.

599
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 2: But I also want you to be healthy. I want

600
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 2: you to be able to show up for your kids

601
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 2: and your wife. I want you to be able to

602
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: or your husband or your family, or you know, whatever

603
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,359
Speaker 2: it is. I want you to be able to work

604
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 2: a job and to be able to have that fulfillment

605
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 2: of being able to provide for yourself. And if you

606
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna I'm not going to say that I

607
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 2: only want that for you if you come to know Jesus,

608
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 2: I want you to flourish.

609
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: In all ways.

610
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 2: And I am not going to say that it's a

611
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 2: whole package or nothing. I think that's not a gospel

612
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 2: witness to say I'm only going to kind of engage

613
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 2: with you on this or I'm only going to be

614
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 2: wanting to help you find help if it is the

615
00:36:53,600 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 2: help through my religious commitments. And so that's really going

616
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 2: to ruffle some feathers. For some people, certainly, the spiritual

617
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 2: component for some people is the primary component, and so

618
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 2: it could you know, I know there's a woman who

619
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 2: came to one of the very first events that we did,

620
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 2: and she actually went to my church, and you know,

621
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 2: she said, look, I grew up in a home with

622
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 2: an alcoholic father. He came to know Jesus and he

623
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 2: never drank again. So that's what people need. And I'm thinking, well,

624
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 2: that's one story that sounds like for your dad, the

625
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 2: primary driver of his addiction was a spiritual disconnection. And

626
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 2: for some people it is traumatic events from their childhood

627
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 2: that they need therapy for. The I mean, there's just

628
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 2: so many different things that are going on in a

629
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 2: person's life that would lead to compulsive behaviors. The spiritual

630
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 2: component were embodied spiritual being, So that's a component. But

631
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 2: I think that the church needs to be open to

632
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,240
Speaker 2: the fact that, you know, people sometimes people need medication,

633
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 2: sometimes they need uh. You know, there's all kinds of

634
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 2: different things that can help people live healthier lives. As

635
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 2: we're on our journey towards UH, towards Jesus and towards

636
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 2: heaven in a broken world, with all of us who

637
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:18,240
Speaker 2: are struggling.

638
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 3: So I want to pause here for a second because

639
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 3: I think you you covered some some important things, and

640
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 3: I think people who listen to this podcast, I want

641
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 3: to I want to make sure that that that I

642
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 3: that you hear me on on a couple of things,

643
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 3: and I think that would be this is that you know,

644
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 3: if you're listening to this podcast, you've probably heard me

645
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 3: say you know that my philosophy is aimed for Jesus

646
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 3: and get sobriety thrown in, right, and that now you

647
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 3: hear Christina say, well, it's not just you know, some

648
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 3: people don't just need the spiritual and so what I

649
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 3: want to want to marry those things because I recommend

650
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 3: Christina's book as a recommended resource in my stuff. So John,

651
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 3: how can you say, John, you're all about aim for

652
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 3: Jesus and get sobriety thrown in and Christina saying this,

653
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 3: and I think we're we're were actually saying the same thing.

654
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 3: And what I mean by that is I am for

655
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 3: one hundred percent holistic health. I didn't, I think Christina,

656
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 3: and please correct me if I'm wrong. But Christina and

657
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 3: I both fight against the idea that if you just

658
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 3: pray enough, if you just have faith, if you just

659
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 3: listen to enough sermons, if you you know, like all

660
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 3: the you know, in a sense the moralistic, if I

661
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 3: just do these things, then that's going to be enough.

662
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 4: Listen. In my own journey, what did I have to do?

663
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 3: My practical journey looked like I went to an EMDR

664
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 3: trauma therapist every week for a year to get at

665
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 3: what was really going on. Right again, it wasn't that

666
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 3: I did love Jesus. Now, what I would say is

667
00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 3: I had to let Jesus into those parts of myself, right.

668
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 3: I had to let Jesus into the mental health work.

669
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,399
Speaker 3: I had to let him into the EMDA. Like at

670
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,720
Speaker 3: the end of every session, my therapist was like, Okay,

671
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,839
Speaker 3: let's invite Jesus in, right, And I think in the end, like, yes,

672
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:17,839
Speaker 3: I believe that ultimate flourishing, ultimate healing, ultimate you know

673
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 3: everything as a Christian means that you need to invite

674
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 3: Jesus into, you know, all those parts of yourself. But

675
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 3: can you be an atheist and be sober like like

676
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 3: you know, Christina said, yeah, can you get sober without Jesus?

677
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 4: Millions of people have.

678
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 3: Now I want more for you than that, right, Like

679
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 3: I want more than the sobriety as a Christian, right,

680
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 3: But I also know that if you know, like my sister,

681
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 3: my sister was strung out so many times, she's not

682
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 3: walking into a church service, like's not she's not literally

683
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 3: in the mental capacity and have the ability to you know,

684
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 3: consume that kind of stuff, right, Like No, And so

685
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 3: I tell people like all the time, like I send

686
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 3: people the detoc centers all the time, I send people

687
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 3: the treatment facilities all the time. I say, do the

688
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 3: twelve steps, say go to a meetings, right, like because

689
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:18,320
Speaker 3: I could, because it's not just hey, all you need

690
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 3: is to pray more, all you need is this. Right,

691
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 3: there's a scene, I'm gonna mess it up, but it's

692
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 3: it's basically like, you know, the worst person to send

693
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 3: a drunk is to church, right. And the idea is

694
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 3: because because for so long and in so many ways,

695
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 3: the church has been like, oh yeah, just you know,

696
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 3: just just come here every Sunday and you'll be good, right,

697
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,240
Speaker 3: And it's like, no, we need to give them practical steps,

698
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 3: practical advice, practical handles, right. And so I just want

699
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 3: to clarify for people that that I think that the

700
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,399
Speaker 3: message of aim for Jesus and get sobriety thrown in

701
00:41:55,480 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 3: is not antithetical to Hey, people still need handles, we

702
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 3: still need to help people. We still it's not just

703
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,280
Speaker 3: about prey more, have faith more. Does that make sense?

704
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I think that's I think it's

705
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 2: a really good thing for us to to continue to

706
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 2: wrestle with as a church of kind of how so,

707
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 2: I'm not I'm not opposed to faith based treatment. There's

708
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 2: good faith based treatment, and there's really terrible faith based treatment.

709
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 2: There's good secular treatment, and there's really terrible secular treatment

710
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 2: in terms of kind of what are what are people wanting?

711
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:31,399
Speaker 1: What are what are they?

712
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 2: What did they had a friend who does addiction treatment,

713
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 2: and I asked him one time kind of what was

714
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 2: the most effective medication for people who run medications for

715
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 2: substance use disorder, And he said, in my experience, the

716
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 2: most effective one is the one they want to try

717
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 2: because they're brought in, they're entreat they like the And

718
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 2: so I think part of the part of kind of

719
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 2: a change in posture, maybe that would be helpful for

720
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 2: us to listen a lot more to what people who

721
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 2: are struggling actually want in their lives, like what And

722
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 2: I think part of that, part of the outflow of

723
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 2: this belief that this is just people who are badly

724
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 2: behaved and they don't know right from wrong or they

725
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 2: don't care about right from wrong, is that we think, well,

726
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:24,800
Speaker 2: then we can't trust anything that they say, like they're

727
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 2: just people that need us to come in and fix them,

728
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 2: instead of beginning to listen to say, hey, what what

729
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,439
Speaker 2: is it that you like help them dream about their

730
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 2: own life, about the things. I just got a text

731
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 2: the other day from a woman who used a non

732
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 2: traditional pathway to recovery after I think she was in

733
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 2: active addiction to heroin and other substances for about seventeen years,

734
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 2: and she just wrote her story and it was published

735
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 2: publicly for the first time in the newspaper.

736
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: I'm so proud of her. It was so brave.

737
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 2: And she said, you know, I use to never I

738
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 2: used to think I was never good enough for anything

739
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 2: like that. I just didn't matter that I couldn't have

740
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 2: an impact. And so, you know, for her, like regaining

741
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 2: that sense of agency that I matter, my life matters,

742
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 2: I can do things, like my story might impact someone.

743
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 2: I think is really is really important and powerful and

744
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 2: is a thing that that churches also can kind of

745
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 2: take and say, you know, we've done a lot of

746
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 2: I think the church has done much more work over

747
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 2: the last twenty thirty years to begin to rethink how

748
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 2: we approach poverty from a sense of like, let me

749
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 2: come in and save you, to like, how can we

750
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 2: partner so that you're an equal in this process? And

751
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 2: I would hope to see that same shift happen with addiction.

752
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 2: That we don't come at people who are struggling is

753
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 2: I've got all the answers and I'm here to fix you,

754
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 2: But how can I partner on this journey with you

755
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 2: so that you can regain a vision and dream for

756
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 2: your life of flourishing and that I can celebrate each

757
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 2: step of the way with you. And I'm not withholding

758
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 2: my relationship or I'm not withholding my encouragement of you

759
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 2: until your life looks awesome and you're completely sober and

760
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 2: you're working full time and you've got everything going for

761
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 2: you again, I think that kind of that thinking of

762
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 2: it is how can I be a good companion on

763
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 2: the journey for people who are struggling. There's a lot

764
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: of people who don't have a companion for that journey.

765
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 2: And sometimes that's because the destruction of their addiction has

766
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,399
Speaker 2: done so much damage to the relationships around them that

767
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:57,280
Speaker 2: it really is someone else outside of that family structure

768
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:00,439
Speaker 2: that can be that companion in the most helpful way.

769
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 2: I know that was true for Joanne. It wasn't that

770
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 2: she had no family, it was after twenty years of addiction.

771
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 2: There was so much damage done there to all of

772
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 2: those relationships, so much mistrust, so much that they it

773
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,399
Speaker 2: took a while for them to be able to kind

774
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 2: of begin to rebuild those relationships. Whereas for us, I

775
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,479
Speaker 2: didn't have any history with her, and so I could

776
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 2: come in and I've only ever known Joanne and Sobriety,

777
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 2: I've never known her for those twenty years prior to that,

778
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,839
Speaker 2: and so it was much easier for me to come

779
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,720
Speaker 2: in and be, you know, as conflicted as I felt

780
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 2: until I really was able to kind of shift over

781
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 2: to that, like she's a mom like me, much easier

782
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 2: for me to be a cheerleader and to just you know,

783
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 2: continue to encourage and continue to and there was no

784
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 2: baggage there, and that is a great role. I think

785
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 2: that believe that churches can play as people if they

786
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 2: come into our doors or if we meet them in

787
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 2: other places, that we can come in and provide some

788
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 2: of that where maybe those relationships have been deeply wounded

789
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 2: or there's so much mistrust there that it's just really

790
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 2: difficult for family to kind of come along.

791
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 1: And be that be that help for people.

792
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 2: Because it is really, you know, incredible that meeting Joanne

793
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 2: changed me. It's continued to change me. That was ten

794
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 2: years ago that we first met now and I am

795
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 2: so thankful for her vulnerability. She is the one that

796
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 2: let me in to see who she really is. She's

797
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 2: the one that let me see the mother who loves

798
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 2: her son. She's the one who risked that vulnerability to

799
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 2: sing to her son over the phone. She's the one

800
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 2: who asked to me every ten thousand questions about every

801
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 2: little thing her son was doing. It wasn't me that

802
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 2: came in and was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna open

803
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 2: myself up to this learning process. I didn't have any

804
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 2: interest in changing the way that I thought. And I'm

805
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 2: so thankful that the Lord sent me Joanne, and that

806
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 2: Joanne was so courageous and brave to let me in

807
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 2: and to share who she is. And I think that's

808
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 2: part of what is beautiful about your work is that

809
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 2: letting people in and letting them see that hard journey

810
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 2: and see the person that is behind what most people

811
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 2: stop at, which is the addiction, and to instead say

812
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 2: the addiction is not who you are, This is not

813
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 2: your identity. You are a person first, and you are

814
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 2: loved by God. And you know, I have a friend

815
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 2: who has worked for a long time and.

816
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 1: Recovery.

817
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 2: It's like a recovery community in Chicago, and he said,

818
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:07,439
Speaker 2: you know, our philosophy is we want to help people

819
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 2: run towards the light. If we focus on the darkness,

820
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 2: they don't tend to ever be able to get out

821
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 2: of it. We want to help them look towards the light.

822
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 2: Focus on the light. What's the thing you want to build?

823
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 2: How can we partner with you in that? And that

824
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:28,440
Speaker 2: is where they really see this momentum towards moving towards

825
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 2: that And everybody, all of us, addiction or no addiction,

826
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 2: all of us need companions for the journey of running

827
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 2: towards the light.

828
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 3: That running towards the light, it reminds me, you know,

829
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 3: one of my top resources that I recommend and I

830
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 3: think it in a sense gives what I call is

831
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 3: the maybe the foundational principle, if you will, of gospel

832
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:54,879
Speaker 3: centered recovery. Is an old sermon by a guy named

833
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,800
Speaker 3: Thomas Chalmers from the late seventeen hundreds early eighteen hundreds,

834
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 3: and it's called the pulsive power of a new affection.

835
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 3: And the idea is that, I mean, you can't just

836
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 3: focus on not doing something. You have to have a

837
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:15,839
Speaker 3: new affection. And you and I Christina know that the

838
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 3: best new affection you know you could have is Jesus, right.

839
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 3: And so that's what I call in a sense gospel

840
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 3: covered gospel's recovery. But that it's you know, it was

841
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 3: one of the things that my sister just could never

842
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 3: I'm not saying she couldn't grasp it. I think she

843
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 3: knew it, but lacked the resources and ability to what

844
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 3: did that? What does that mean on a practical level

845
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 3: to now run towards that right? And the church was

846
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:48,359
Speaker 3: just telling her we'll just stop right. And and the

847
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:53,239
Speaker 3: message that I'm hoping like is no, if you want

848
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 3: that expulsive power of a new affection, here's how you

849
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:59,399
Speaker 3: get that new affection right. And again that where it's

850
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 3: not just ormore, have more faith prayed away, you know

851
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 3: that kind of thing. And I think what you're what

852
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 3: you're talking about is just encapsulated in that little mini sermon.

853
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 2: Right.

854
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:14,800
Speaker 3: It's like, if you want to, if you want to

855
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 3: get rid of the darkness, run towards the light.

856
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 2: Right.

857
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 3: I'm curious, no pun intended. Uh, what you would say

858
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:34,280
Speaker 3: is your biggest revelation? And maybe you've kind of already

859
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 3: covered it, but but I'd love to put it in

860
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:39,920
Speaker 3: a bow here then at least, what is your biggest

861
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:46,359
Speaker 3: revelation when it comes to people who struggle with addictions?

862
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 2: The biggest thing that shifted for me was understanding that

863
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 2: people who struggle with addictions or people just like me,

864
00:51:55,800 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 2: there's no there's no difference, there's no type of person,

865
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 2: and who becomes someone who's struggled with an addiction.

866
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:05,800
Speaker 1: It is just people.

867
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:10,280
Speaker 2: People who are living in a broken world, people who

868
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,399
Speaker 2: are dealing with brokenness in their own lives, and all

869
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 2: of us reach for different things to help us deal

870
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 2: with that brokenness. Some of those things are more socially acceptable,

871
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 2: some of those things are healthier, Some of those things

872
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 2: are more unhealthy. Some of them are legal some of

873
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 2: them are illegal, some of them are stigmatized, some of

874
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 2: them are not. All of us are trying to cope

875
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 2: with life in a broken world.

876
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:35,760
Speaker 1: And that.

877
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 2: Evening of the playing field has been the biggest revelation

878
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 2: for me because I was a good girl who grew

879
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 2: up learning how to do all the right things and

880
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 2: how to make all the right decisions and for all

881
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:54,400
Speaker 2: the adults to be proud of me, and I couldn't

882
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 2: understand why everybody else couldn't just get their act together.

883
00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 2: You just follow the rules. That's how it works. And

884
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 2: if you follow the rules, everyone's happy with you. And

885
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,799
Speaker 2: if you follow the rules, things just work out. And

886
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 2: I am so thankful that I didn't spend yet another year.

887
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: Of my life thinking that same way.

888
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 2: It took thirty years for the Lord to really begin

889
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 2: to work on that in me, and he's still working

890
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 2: on that in me.

891
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 1: It is still a struggle.

892
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:26,799
Speaker 2: The things that we struggle with are oftentimes things that

893
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 2: are with us, you know, are kind of besetting sins.

894
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,320
Speaker 2: The things that we just tend to struggle with ongoing.

895
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 2: And that is still one because I am still someone

896
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 2: who likes I like to figure out kind of what's

897
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 2: right and I talk about this with my therapist all

898
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,279
Speaker 2: the time, because she was, like, you live under so

899
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 2: much pressure from this like relentless pursuit of doing the

900
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:58,359
Speaker 2: right thing. And so even though I know that I'm

901
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 2: covered by grace, so I know that God loves me

902
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,040
Speaker 2: no matter what, I don't have to try and try

903
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:09,279
Speaker 2: to measure up this deep seated from my child and

904
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 2: at this kind of part of the way I'm geared

905
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:13,799
Speaker 2: part of the culture I grew up in. Part of

906
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 2: growing up in the eighties and nineties and Evangelical America

907
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 2: was there's a lot about behavior modification, a lot about

908
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 2: what you do and how it looks, and it's not

909
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 2: easy to untangle all of those things. And there's some

910
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:31,879
Speaker 2: good lessons in that also, and yet there's some hard

911
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 2: things also. So I think that has been the biggest

912
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:40,399
Speaker 2: kind of learning and the biggest gift for me has

913
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 2: been getting to have relationships with people and seeing them

914
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:50,279
Speaker 2: as the beautiful, amazing, gifted people that God has made

915
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 2: them to be. And the heartbreak of that is seeing

916
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 2: how often that that is not seen, because what we

917
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 2: see is only the and what we don't see is

918
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 2: the person right in front of us who is struggling

919
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:11,719
Speaker 2: whose behavior might be really harmful, but who is a

920
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 2: person made of the image of God, with value and worth,

921
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 2: with gifts and abilities, with likes and dislikes, with passions,

922
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:25,319
Speaker 2: with dreams and hopes, and all of those things. The bravest,

923
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 2: most compassionate, most incredible people that I have met in

924
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 2: my life have been people in recovery. And that has

925
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 2: only happened over the last ten years or so. That's

926
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,759
Speaker 2: a tragedy that I could not name a person in

927
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 2: my world who I knew was in recovery prior to this.

928
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:48,719
Speaker 2: It just I think it probably says more about me

929
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 2: and the places that I was and.

930
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 1: That I just didn't. I just had no context for

931
00:55:58,719 --> 00:55:59,799
Speaker 1: that I was not.

932
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 2: But you know, maybe people like me who like to

933
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 2: behave and do things the right way, we kind of

934
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 2: are drawn to other people who are also driven by

935
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:12,359
Speaker 2: performance and and so that you know, or people are

936
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 2: hiding their addictions, you know. I remember reading in a

937
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:18,560
Speaker 2: book that the average amount of time that a family

938
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,920
Speaker 2: has a loved one struggling with an addiction before they

939
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 2: tell anyone else about it is seven years. So you

940
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:33,800
Speaker 2: got families that are trying to understand, trying to help

941
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 2: a loved one and privately this firestorm is happening in

942
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 2: their life. Publicly nobody knows, say that's that again, and

943
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 2: they're because I think seven years. So the average length

944
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:52,080
Speaker 2: of time that a family has a loved one struggling

945
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 2: with an addiction before that family ever shares that with

946
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 2: anyone outside for support and relationship and help is seven years.

947
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 2: And I asked a friend of mine who does work

948
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 2: with family members. She teaches a particular kind of communication

949
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 2: tool called Craft if people are interested in it, that

950
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 2: teaches families how to communicate with their loved one in

951
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 2: a way that is more likely that their loved one

952
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 2: will reach out for help, and it also keeps the

953
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 2: family healthy, but it maintains that relationship there where some

954
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 2: of the tools that we've had in the past have

955
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 2: really focused on kind of separating yourself from the person

956
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 2: who is struggling. Craft teaches how to have healthy boundaries,

957
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 2: but also how to maintain that relationship in a way

958
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 2: that is positive and helpful to them. And you know,

959
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 2: I asked her, I said, how long before a person

960
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 2: comes into your program, how long have they typically been

961
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:56,160
Speaker 2: walking with a loved one before they're willing Before they're like, Okay,

962
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 2: I'm willing to like come and learn some new tools

963
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 2: how to engage. And she said usually it's about ten

964
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 2: years before they've been walking with a loved one for

965
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 2: about ten years. And she said, it is just so

966
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:12,520
Speaker 2: common for families. They they try and they try to

967
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:15,280
Speaker 2: keep it quiet, and they you know, there's many reasons

968
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 2: that are understandable for that, but they're hoping that it

969
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:21,440
Speaker 2: goes away. And so they hope and they hope, and

970
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 2: they do treatment and there's relaps, they do another treatment

971
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 2: and then and they're just trying year after year after

972
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:30,680
Speaker 2: year and then so it's interesting as you think about

973
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 2: this timeline. About year seven they finally are like, I'm dying.

974
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 2: I have to tell someone of got to I have

975
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 2: got to find somebody that can help kind of walk

976
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 2: with me. And then about year ten is when families

977
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 2: are are willing to kind of give up on that.

978
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 1: You know, the dream that a lot of.

979
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 2: I think a lot of us hope is true, which

980
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:01,240
Speaker 2: is like, oh oh oh, I just need to send

981
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 2: them treatment and then that will take care of it.

982
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:07,960
Speaker 2: Very few people maintain recovery who go to treatment in

983
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:13,439
Speaker 2: patient treatment, outpatient treatment AA. The relapse rates about ninety

984
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:17,760
Speaker 2: percent for everything, So it is very difficult for people

985
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 2: to maintain sobriety. And so my hope is that in

986
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 2: another twenty years those that timeline has been cut in

987
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 2: half or in a fourth, that we've been able to

988
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:32,959
Speaker 2: humanize addiction in such a way that families don't wait

989
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 2: seven years before they reach out for some support on

990
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 2: the journey, that they don't wait for ten years to

991
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:40,320
Speaker 2: learn some tools that can help them better manage that

992
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 2: relationship with their loved one who's an active adiction. And

993
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 2: I think that's again an opportunity for the church. The

994
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 2: church is a perfect opportunity for a group of people

995
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 2: that can offer community support, help people to walk with

996
00:59:57,720 --> 00:59:59,919
Speaker 2: you on the journey. We don't always do that very well,

997
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 2: but we we can grow in that. It's okay to say,

998
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:06,760
Speaker 2: you know what, we've gotten it wrong. Gosh, what would

999
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:08,720
Speaker 2: the church still be doing if we wouldn't have been

1000
01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 2: willing to say that we've gotten a few things wrong

1001
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 2: in the past. It's okay to say that we've gotten

1002
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 2: some things wrong where we are broken fall in humans,

1003
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 2: we get stuff wrong, our institutions get stuff wrong. It's

1004
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 2: okay to acknowledge that and say we want to learn,

1005
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 2: we want to we want to try to build communities

1006
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 2: where people in early recovery could come, where families can

1007
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 2: share that their loved one is struggling, Where people who

1008
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:37,080
Speaker 2: are still in active addiction could come and find some

1009
01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 2: some place to have be spiritually fed. You know, maybe

1010
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:44,800
Speaker 2: maybe they're not working in the nursery if they're actively using,

1011
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:46,920
Speaker 2: but that doesn't mean there's not a place for them

1012
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 2: to come and worship on a Sunday morning and you know,

1013
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:53,280
Speaker 2: set up chairs in the fellowship, Paul, and you know,

1014
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:56,840
Speaker 2: whatever it is, we've all the thing is, our churches

1015
01:00:56,840 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 2: are full of people in active addiction, whether or not

1016
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 2: we realize it, with whether or not we whether or

1017
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 2: not we see it, or whether or not it is

1018
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 2: well hidden.

1019
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:08,000
Speaker 3: And that's why, you know, I think part of what

1020
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:11,600
Speaker 3: I am so passionate about, right, and I'm partnering with

1021
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:17,000
Speaker 3: another nonprofit on some of this work, is to create

1022
01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 3: gospel centered recovery programs at churches that do that right,

1023
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:24,000
Speaker 3: that that hey, listen, we're not going to outsource like

1024
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 3: in some ways, I think the church has done a

1025
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:29,920
Speaker 3: disservice by outsourcing in a sense recovery. And what I

1026
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:32,440
Speaker 3: mean by that is that's not to say that treatment

1027
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 3: centers aren't needed. That that's not what I mean. What

1028
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:38,600
Speaker 3: I mean is that, hey, when you know, when we

1029
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 3: outsource all of recovery, we neglect the spiritual aspect that says, okay,

1030
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 3: like now let's get to you know what I'm realizing,

1031
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:50,120
Speaker 3: even about my sister, right, my sister sexually abused me, right,

1032
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:53,600
Speaker 3: But one of my biggest revelations was where did my

1033
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 3: sister learn that stuff? Oh my gosh, the reason that

1034
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 3: she became, you know, started doing drugs at such a

1035
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:04,080
Speaker 3: young age, it's because she was trying to cope with

1036
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 3: these deep traumas stuff that was done to her, like

1037
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:11,400
Speaker 3: she that she then practiced on me. But it was like,

1038
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 3: my goodness, if there was if there was a gospel

1039
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:19,280
Speaker 3: centered recovery program in our community that said, Jenny, let's

1040
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:23,000
Speaker 3: help you get to the like heal that stuff, right

1041
01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:27,600
Speaker 3: and to your point, yeah, the ninety percent of recidivism, right,

1042
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:30,440
Speaker 3: you know, it's like, yeah, because you're not getting to

1043
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 3: those things. So where can the church if we set

1044
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:35,800
Speaker 3: up these gospel centerted recovery programs and we we say okay,

1045
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 3: like yes, you need you know, you may need medication, Yes,

1046
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:42,400
Speaker 3: you may need to go to this you know facility,

1047
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:44,919
Speaker 3: or you might do things. But man, we are going

1048
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:48,520
Speaker 3: to We are going to embrace you and walk alongside

1049
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:51,480
Speaker 3: you and with you and make sure that your spiritual

1050
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:57,040
Speaker 3: health is is taking care of. I just wonder if

1051
01:02:57,080 --> 01:03:00,360
Speaker 3: the church would do that, like you said, like, what

1052
01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:01,080
Speaker 3: would happen?

1053
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 4: You know?

1054
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:05,560
Speaker 3: And it's part of the vision that I have is

1055
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:09,200
Speaker 3: for churches to have gospel centered recovery ministries and if not,

1056
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:11,919
Speaker 3: well that's why we have Airitas Recovery and that's why

1057
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:15,120
Speaker 3: we have Ended for Good. Right is some of the

1058
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 3: where where can we get resources before we go? I

1059
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:23,520
Speaker 3: would love to know. I think so many family members

1060
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 3: are like what can I do? Right?

1061
01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 4: What can I do?

1062
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:30,960
Speaker 3: You know, maybe they're in that year nine, you know, whatever,

1063
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:36,880
Speaker 3: whatever year they're in, where they just feel like I

1064
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:38,280
Speaker 3: just can't do it.

1065
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:40,200
Speaker 4: I don't know how to support this person. I don't

1066
01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:40,880
Speaker 4: know what to do.

1067
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 3: What is your best advice for family members who are

1068
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:49,760
Speaker 3: walking alongside or maybe they've even given up right, Like,

1069
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:51,240
Speaker 3: there was a point in my life where I didn't

1070
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:54,240
Speaker 3: even tell people that I had a sister. I mean

1071
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:56,160
Speaker 3: I told him I had one sister. I had two,

1072
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 3: but I told him I had one like I had

1073
01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:02,440
Speaker 3: just written her off. So what's your best advice for people,

1074
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:08,200
Speaker 3: family members and loved ones walking alongside those in addiction.

1075
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:10,040
Speaker 4: We'll be right back after this.

1076
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:17,360
Speaker 2: I would really encourage them to I know it's gonna

1077
01:04:18,120 --> 01:04:22,479
Speaker 2: they already feel like their plate is full, but if

1078
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:28,160
Speaker 2: they can scooch a little room on that plate, I

1079
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:30,920
Speaker 2: would encourage them to read the book Beyond Addiction. The

1080
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:33,360
Speaker 2: subtitle of it is How Science and Kindness help People

1081
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:37,960
Speaker 2: heal and to look into a program like there's a

1082
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:42,480
Speaker 2: program called Invitation to Change you can do online. They

1083
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:46,640
Speaker 2: also have support groups. There's CRAFT programs in different parts

1084
01:04:46,640 --> 01:04:50,720
Speaker 2: of the country that stands for community reinforcement and family training.

1085
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:52,800
Speaker 1: That is the.

1086
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 2: Kind of communicate the set of communication tools that have

1087
01:04:57,120 --> 01:05:01,280
Speaker 2: been shown to improve family health and improve the likelihood

1088
01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:04,800
Speaker 2: that a loved one will make positive change in their

1089
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:08,040
Speaker 2: life or reach out for help and go to treatment.

1090
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:12,080
Speaker 2: Really encourage them because I think families feel so that

1091
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:18,840
Speaker 2: the doom loop of they say they're going to stop

1092
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 2: using and then they don't. Then I can tell they've

1093
01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:21,600
Speaker 2: been using, and then we fight about it. And then

1094
01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:22,880
Speaker 2: I kick them out, and then they come back, and

1095
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:24,120
Speaker 2: then they say they're not going to use, and they

1096
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:25,880
Speaker 2: start using, and then we fight about and then I

1097
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:29,600
Speaker 2: kick them out, and that can feel just so hopeless.

1098
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:37,320
Speaker 2: And what these other tools help with is help you

1099
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:41,640
Speaker 2: kind of move out of that doom loop. Not to

1100
01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:44,600
Speaker 2: say it's going to fix everything, but to say, of

1101
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:47,600
Speaker 2: the tools we know of right now for families, these

1102
01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:52,080
Speaker 2: are the tools that best keep families healthy and connected

1103
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:55,840
Speaker 2: to their loved one and have the best opportunity for

1104
01:05:55,880 --> 01:05:59,920
Speaker 2: their loved one. They actually influence in a positive way

1105
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:03,360
Speaker 2: a loved one's interest in making a positive change, in

1106
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:06,520
Speaker 2: getting help in their life. And so really encourage people

1107
01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:09,840
Speaker 2: to look into those to look into those tools. So

1108
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:14,960
Speaker 2: the book Beyond Addiction, Craft Groups, Invitation to Change Groups.

1109
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:20,000
Speaker 2: There are other tools out there, but would part of

1110
01:06:20,040 --> 01:06:24,520
Speaker 2: the reason why I'm passionate about families knowing about those

1111
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:28,640
Speaker 2: and trying to find those last vestiges of energy to

1112
01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:34,400
Speaker 2: look into them is because, for you know, twenty five

1113
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:40,560
Speaker 2: thirty years ago, if your loved one relapsed, they you know,

1114
01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:42,560
Speaker 2: they went back to treatment or maybe they were just

1115
01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:45,960
Speaker 2: using again. The way that the drug market is today,

1116
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:48,560
Speaker 2: with the amount of fentanyl that's in underground drugs, the

1117
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:50,520
Speaker 2: amount of people who are using drug spot on the

1118
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:55,600
Speaker 2: underground market. You may not have that opportunity. It may

1119
01:06:55,640 --> 01:06:56,640
Speaker 2: be that your loved.

1120
01:06:56,440 --> 01:06:57,160
Speaker 1: One is gone.

1121
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:01,960
Speaker 2: And I have talked to you families who have lost

1122
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:06,640
Speaker 2: their loved ones who similar to what you said, I

1123
01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 2: wish I could go back. I wish I wish there

1124
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:11,640
Speaker 2: was some way for me to say. You know, maybe

1125
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:13,360
Speaker 2: it's not to say, hey, come and live with me,

1126
01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:17,960
Speaker 2: but maybe it's to say I love you, I'm sorry that.

1127
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:20,080
Speaker 1: I maybe have treated you the way that I have.

1128
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:29,280
Speaker 2: I. You know, for parents, especially if they lose their

1129
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:34,760
Speaker 2: loved one, how can that loss not also have all

1130
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:39,080
Speaker 2: of the components of regret that so many people feel.

1131
01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:45,000
Speaker 2: And a lot of that has come from this kind

1132
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:49,400
Speaker 2: of deep seated teaching in the United States around you

1133
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:52,240
Speaker 2: just have to kind of write them off until they

1134
01:07:52,320 --> 01:07:57,080
Speaker 2: hit rock bottom, and then they will, you know, it's

1135
01:07:57,160 --> 01:07:59,280
Speaker 2: kind of part of it. And parents are encouraged to

1136
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:02,280
Speaker 2: do that. They're to disconnect from their children or whoever

1137
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:05,800
Speaker 2: their loved one is. And for many parents that there

1138
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:08,880
Speaker 2: is no the loss is there. We're losing so many

1139
01:08:08,920 --> 01:08:10,920
Speaker 2: people to overdose. They don't have a chance to go

1140
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:14,400
Speaker 2: back again and say, oh, well it was just you know,

1141
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:17,120
Speaker 2: it's a relapse, We get another go round of this.

1142
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:18,479
Speaker 1: That's it.

1143
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:21,080
Speaker 2: Their loved one's gone. There's no more opportunity for recovery.

1144
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:23,960
Speaker 2: And so for parents to have these tools to be

1145
01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:27,640
Speaker 2: able to say, you know what, even if the unthinkable

1146
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:31,360
Speaker 2: happens and I lose my loved one, I know that

1147
01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:34,599
Speaker 2: I did everything I could to maintain a relationship with them.

1148
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:37,160
Speaker 2: They knew that they were loved, They knew that I

1149
01:08:37,240 --> 01:08:40,400
Speaker 2: cared for them, They knew that I was there for them,

1150
01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:44,000
Speaker 2: and I also had appropriate boundaries that didn't get sucked

1151
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:46,839
Speaker 2: into the crazy train with them. And I was doing

1152
01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:50,280
Speaker 2: everything I could to be a resource for them for

1153
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:53,680
Speaker 2: when they were open to being a resource. That's a

1154
01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:57,679
Speaker 2: really powerful thing because there are many families who did

1155
01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:01,800
Speaker 2: not have that. Have a friend named Jim who lost

1156
01:09:01,880 --> 01:09:05,000
Speaker 2: his only child to an overdose, and he was on

1157
01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:08,639
Speaker 2: the phone with me talking about kind of learning about

1158
01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:11,400
Speaker 2: new tools, had new tools for helping people to stay alive,

1159
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:15,400
Speaker 2: new tools for engaging in relationship, and he said, why

1160
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:17,880
Speaker 2: did nobody tell me about this when my son was

1161
01:09:17,880 --> 01:09:22,040
Speaker 2: still alive. The only thing I was told was disconnect

1162
01:09:22,080 --> 01:09:25,840
Speaker 2: from him, let him hit rock bottom, move away from him.

1163
01:09:25,880 --> 01:09:28,760
Speaker 2: That's going to teach him, you know that he needs

1164
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:31,799
Speaker 2: to change the way that he behaves. Now my son's

1165
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:34,720
Speaker 2: gone and I don't have an opportunity then, and I'm

1166
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:40,080
Speaker 2: left with holding this like, Oh, what I wanted him

1167
01:09:40,120 --> 01:09:42,439
Speaker 2: most to know was I love him, and I'm there

1168
01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:45,320
Speaker 2: for them, there for him, even if I can't be

1169
01:09:45,360 --> 01:09:47,840
Speaker 2: present for a lot of the things that he's doing.

1170
01:09:48,240 --> 01:09:51,439
Speaker 2: So I think it's not just that it's effective, it's

1171
01:09:51,479 --> 01:09:55,519
Speaker 2: that families really are losing their last chance with a

1172
01:09:55,560 --> 01:09:58,200
Speaker 2: loved one because of the toxicity of the drug supply,

1173
01:09:59,160 --> 01:10:01,479
Speaker 2: and so for them to have the tools to be

1174
01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:06,240
Speaker 2: able to at least remove some of the burden of

1175
01:10:06,320 --> 01:10:09,600
Speaker 2: the loss and hopefully to help their loved one to

1176
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:15,840
Speaker 2: get help before that unthinkable ever happens. That's that's really important.

1177
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:18,840
Speaker 2: And I hope for families to know that there are

1178
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:22,439
Speaker 2: there are tools out there. They have been studied and researched,

1179
01:10:22,439 --> 01:10:26,320
Speaker 2: their evidence based. It's worth the time to learn them

1180
01:10:26,360 --> 01:10:29,320
Speaker 2: because it's going to improve your own health and your

1181
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:33,200
Speaker 2: relationship with your loved one who is struggling and their

1182
01:10:33,680 --> 01:10:39,160
Speaker 2: potential forgetting and maintaining that help and sobriety journey. So

1183
01:10:40,160 --> 01:10:44,080
Speaker 2: maybe my last thought on family members is whatever path

1184
01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:53,640
Speaker 2: your loved one takes, you know, appreciate, appreciate the outcome

1185
01:10:54,560 --> 01:10:58,000
Speaker 2: without focusing so much on what the path is. Uh,

1186
01:10:58,120 --> 01:11:02,360
Speaker 2: if they're taking medication, don't dog them because they need medication.

1187
01:11:02,640 --> 01:11:07,800
Speaker 2: If they're healthy and thriving on medication, great, That's like

1188
01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:11,840
Speaker 2: the goal is a healthy, thriving life. It's not what

1189
01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:15,559
Speaker 2: exactly did you do to get there. We want people

1190
01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:19,000
Speaker 2: flourishing in all areas of life and for there's so

1191
01:11:19,160 --> 01:11:22,760
Speaker 2: many different and we're continuing to develop new methods of

1192
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:26,760
Speaker 2: treatment in the drug treatment sphere, and my hope is

1193
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:29,679
Speaker 2: that we can move away from know there's only one

1194
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:32,559
Speaker 2: path to recovery and you have to take it to

1195
01:11:33,080 --> 01:11:36,880
Speaker 2: you know what. God made really complex people and there's

1196
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:39,599
Speaker 2: probably a whole variety of different things that people could

1197
01:11:39,720 --> 01:11:42,679
Speaker 2: use as tools at different points in their recovery journey.

1198
01:11:43,200 --> 01:11:46,639
Speaker 2: And my goal is how can we help more people

1199
01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:50,280
Speaker 2: get to a healthy, thriving life and whichever tools they

1200
01:11:50,320 --> 01:11:55,360
Speaker 2: need to use on that journey, hey, that's okay, that's

1201
01:11:55,439 --> 01:11:58,599
Speaker 2: the journey that works for the complex makeup of who

1202
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:02,640
Speaker 2: they are. Their biology as well as who they are

1203
01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:05,720
Speaker 2: in their their spirit, their life experiences and all of

1204
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:08,800
Speaker 2: those things. So kind of taking our foot off of

1205
01:12:08,840 --> 01:12:13,400
Speaker 2: the the control button of exactly what are they doing

1206
01:12:13,439 --> 01:12:16,080
Speaker 2: and saying instead, hey, how can I gain some tools

1207
01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:18,839
Speaker 2: so I can help them find a pathway to recovery

1208
01:12:18,840 --> 01:12:20,719
Speaker 2: that works for them and support them on whatever path

1209
01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:21,040
Speaker 2: that is.

1210
01:12:21,920 --> 01:12:23,720
Speaker 3: You said something there, and I'll end it with this,

1211
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:27,439
Speaker 3: but but you know what you said about I mean,

1212
01:12:27,439 --> 01:12:31,240
Speaker 3: fentanyl's changed the game, if you will, in an awful way,

1213
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:35,320
Speaker 3: because it can be manufactured. You know, it's synthetic, right

1214
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:39,559
Speaker 3: and right exactly. And so you know, even just one

1215
01:12:39,560 --> 01:12:42,799
Speaker 3: of my board members, some someone he was in treatment

1216
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:51,280
Speaker 3: with well sober and you know, well struggling with some anxiety,

1217
01:12:52,360 --> 01:12:56,599
Speaker 3: went to buy an anxiety medication off the street, took

1218
01:12:56,680 --> 01:13:00,400
Speaker 3: it and it was Lesa's fentanyl, and he died and

1219
01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:06,439
Speaker 3: like had no intention of you know, taking ventanyl, no intent.

1220
01:13:06,600 --> 01:13:09,360
Speaker 4: He's like, I just now, could he have gone to

1221
01:13:09,360 --> 01:13:10,040
Speaker 4: the doctor a shirt?

1222
01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:11,960
Speaker 3: Right? But it was it was it was easier, it

1223
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:17,640
Speaker 3: was quicker. He's like, I'm just I'm and that was it, right, Yeah,

1224
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:19,680
Speaker 3: And so I think it's a you know, when you

1225
01:13:19,720 --> 01:13:22,479
Speaker 3: say what you're saying, like it's happening all over the country,

1226
01:13:24,120 --> 01:13:26,720
Speaker 3: and you know, we talk about the fentanyl crisis, and

1227
01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:28,960
Speaker 3: it's it's true. It's being put in everything because it

1228
01:13:29,000 --> 01:13:32,040
Speaker 3: makes stuff more addictive. It's you know, it's cheaper, it's easier.

1229
01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:36,720
Speaker 3: So so you're right, you're exactly right about that. If

1230
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:39,960
Speaker 3: people want to go and find some of the resources

1231
01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:41,760
Speaker 3: that you've talked about, some of the resources that you

1232
01:13:41,960 --> 01:13:44,439
Speaker 3: offer through End It for Good, where can they go

1233
01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:45,679
Speaker 3: and get the book as well?

1234
01:13:46,680 --> 01:13:48,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the book is called Curious, So you can

1235
01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:51,920
Speaker 2: get it for ten bucks on Amazon, and the majority

1236
01:13:51,960 --> 01:13:54,120
Speaker 2: of the proceeds of sales of the book go right

1237
01:13:54,160 --> 01:13:55,439
Speaker 2: back to End It for Good. So if you want

1238
01:13:55,439 --> 01:13:57,800
Speaker 2: to sport the organization and buy I GotY of the book,

1239
01:13:58,240 --> 01:13:59,280
Speaker 2: that's an easy way to do it.

1240
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:01,360
Speaker 1: And it's an easy read. We'll just take you a

1241
01:14:01,400 --> 01:14:02,200
Speaker 1: couple hours.

1242
01:14:02,040 --> 01:14:06,200
Speaker 2: It's written like a memoir and that was my intention

1243
01:14:06,360 --> 01:14:07,800
Speaker 2: that you just felt like you were reading a story

1244
01:14:07,880 --> 01:14:10,439
Speaker 2: and you were learning along the way. So you can

1245
01:14:10,479 --> 01:14:12,120
Speaker 2: get that on Amazon. You can also get it on

1246
01:14:12,160 --> 01:14:14,800
Speaker 2: our website at end It for Good dot com, and

1247
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:17,439
Speaker 2: we also have some other resources on the website also

1248
01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:19,720
Speaker 2: so you can just head on over there. We're on

1249
01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:23,240
Speaker 2: social media also end it for Good and we'd love

1250
01:14:23,240 --> 01:14:26,320
Speaker 2: to connect with you and my emails on our website.

1251
01:14:26,360 --> 01:14:28,720
Speaker 2: So I would love to hear from you. I'd love

1252
01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:30,519
Speaker 2: to hear your story. I'd love to hear it questions

1253
01:14:31,640 --> 01:14:33,840
Speaker 2: I am. You know, I don't have an assistant who

1254
01:14:33,880 --> 01:14:36,080
Speaker 2: like manages my inbox. I get on my own emails,

1255
01:14:36,120 --> 01:14:38,720
Speaker 2: So I'd love to hear from people and have that

1256
01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:41,040
Speaker 2: conversation or if you have questions or want more more

1257
01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:45,880
Speaker 2: resources or ideas, happy to engage and talk about that.

1258
01:14:45,960 --> 01:14:49,080
Speaker 2: Because the thing we want most is for people not

1259
01:14:49,160 --> 01:14:53,120
Speaker 2: to be alone. That's not just people struggle with addiction.

1260
01:14:53,320 --> 01:14:55,000
Speaker 2: We don't want them to be alone. We also don't

1261
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:59,120
Speaker 2: want loved ones to be alone because all of us thrive.

1262
01:14:59,360 --> 01:15:02,880
Speaker 2: We're meant community no matter what we're struggling with, and

1263
01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:05,400
Speaker 2: so in any ways that we can help provide that.

1264
01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:06,120
Speaker 1: With for it.

1265
01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:08,920
Speaker 3: And the book was either Book of the Year or

1266
01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:11,680
Speaker 3: finalists for Book of the Year, right it was.

1267
01:15:11,800 --> 01:15:14,000
Speaker 2: It was Book of the Year for Christianity Today for

1268
01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:18,040
Speaker 2: their Politics and Public Life category, which huge, huge honor,

1269
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:22,200
Speaker 2: so so appreciative of their recognition.

1270
01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:25,160
Speaker 3: So go to end it for good, pick up the book. Christina,

1271
01:15:25,200 --> 01:15:29,479
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for your insights and what you're doing.

1272
01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:30,479
Speaker 3: I really appreciate it.

1273
01:15:30,479 --> 01:15:33,480
Speaker 1: Thanks done appreciate you.

1274
01:15:33,479 --> 01:15:37,240
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know if that reframing was as

1275
01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:39,760
Speaker 3: big of a AHA moment for you as it was

1276
01:15:39,800 --> 01:15:43,240
Speaker 3: for me. But you know that whole addiction as a

1277
01:15:43,280 --> 01:15:47,080
Speaker 3: moral failure versus addiction as a moral compass failure. Right,

1278
01:15:47,320 --> 01:15:50,439
Speaker 3: And so I think you'll hear that a lot right,

1279
01:15:50,479 --> 01:15:54,200
Speaker 3: addiction is not a moral failure issue. And like I said,

1280
01:15:54,240 --> 01:15:56,439
Speaker 3: like I've struggled with that, I was making very poor

1281
01:15:56,479 --> 01:15:59,920
Speaker 3: moral decisions. I was making wrong decisions. Yes, I was

1282
01:16:00,120 --> 01:16:07,240
Speaker 3: failing morally, But maybe we should say addiction is not

1283
01:16:07,280 --> 01:16:13,599
Speaker 3: a moral compass failure. Meaning it's not that we don't

1284
01:16:13,640 --> 01:16:16,559
Speaker 3: know right from wrong. Right, it's that we are not

1285
01:16:17,520 --> 01:16:20,640
Speaker 3: following it. We are not following what we know to

1286
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:23,960
Speaker 3: be true. And that, my friends, is where the gospel

1287
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:27,160
Speaker 3: comes in. Right is like we can know right and wrong.

1288
01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:30,400
Speaker 3: We can know what we want to do and still

1289
01:16:30,439 --> 01:16:31,840
Speaker 3: not do it. We can know what we don't want

1290
01:16:31,880 --> 01:16:35,080
Speaker 3: to do and still do it right, Like addiction is

1291
01:16:35,080 --> 01:16:39,800
Speaker 3: is a moral failure, right, it is making those decisions.

1292
01:16:39,800 --> 01:16:42,439
Speaker 3: But to say that people who struggle with addiction don't

1293
01:16:42,479 --> 01:16:45,800
Speaker 3: know what's right or wrong. Well, yeah, then it's it's

1294
01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:51,160
Speaker 3: not a moral compass failure. I don't know, Like, I'd

1295
01:16:51,200 --> 01:16:53,559
Speaker 3: love to hear your thoughts about that. Like that really

1296
01:16:54,320 --> 01:16:59,439
Speaker 3: continues to stick with me. Christina. I am so grateful

1297
01:16:59,439 --> 01:17:02,000
Speaker 3: for the work that she's doing. You know, she's doing

1298
01:17:02,040 --> 01:17:06,559
Speaker 3: it and approaching it in in secular society. Right.

1299
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:08,680
Speaker 4: So they do a lot of work in.

1300
01:17:10,200 --> 01:17:14,760
Speaker 3: Politics in trying to get legislation changed and passed, and so,

1301
01:17:16,360 --> 01:17:19,240
Speaker 3: you know, man, I would love to see I would

1302
01:17:19,320 --> 01:17:22,680
Speaker 3: love to see Gospel Sentator's recovery in the prison system.

1303
01:17:22,760 --> 01:17:25,400
Speaker 3: In fact, I've been talking to some people about what

1304
01:17:25,439 --> 01:17:28,440
Speaker 3: that looks, like how can we do that? Right? Because

1305
01:17:29,560 --> 01:17:34,720
Speaker 3: here you have people who have been told, Okay, you

1306
01:17:34,800 --> 01:17:36,519
Speaker 3: don't know how to stop doing what you're doing, so

1307
01:17:36,560 --> 01:17:38,360
Speaker 3: we're going to force you to stop doing what you're doing.

1308
01:17:38,960 --> 01:17:41,120
Speaker 3: And that's that's the answer.

1309
01:17:41,760 --> 01:17:41,960
Speaker 1: Right.

1310
01:17:42,479 --> 01:17:47,040
Speaker 3: And yet, now, why is the recidivism rate so high

1311
01:17:47,080 --> 01:17:48,519
Speaker 3: when people get out? Like I was, I was at

1312
01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:52,040
Speaker 3: a treatment center last week, and I can't tell you.

1313
01:17:52,080 --> 01:17:53,800
Speaker 3: As I'm sitting there talking to some of these people,

1314
01:17:53,800 --> 01:17:55,800
Speaker 3: they're like, yep, spent six months in jail, spent nine

1315
01:17:55,800 --> 01:17:57,639
Speaker 3: months in jail, spent a year and a half in jail,

1316
01:17:57,920 --> 01:18:00,240
Speaker 3: and literally within three days I was using it again

1317
01:18:01,439 --> 01:18:05,760
Speaker 3: because the whole, like the stopping what wasn't the point.

1318
01:18:05,840 --> 01:18:07,360
Speaker 3: It can't be the point, It can't be the goal.

1319
01:18:08,120 --> 01:18:12,720
Speaker 3: There has to be some deeper work done. And I

1320
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:14,759
Speaker 3: know that the deepest work is at the heart level,

1321
01:18:14,880 --> 01:18:17,680
Speaker 3: and at the sin level, and at the brokenness level.

1322
01:18:18,760 --> 01:18:21,760
Speaker 3: And so I'm increasingly being drawn to what does it

1323
01:18:21,800 --> 01:18:26,440
Speaker 3: look like to help people who are in an environment

1324
01:18:26,560 --> 01:18:29,040
Speaker 3: that is really all about behavior modification? How do I

1325
01:18:29,120 --> 01:18:31,439
Speaker 3: help them get to the root? So be praying for

1326
01:18:31,479 --> 01:18:33,960
Speaker 3: me for that. To that end, I have a nonprofit

1327
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:36,639
Speaker 3: called Veritas Recovery. You can go to Veritasrecovery dot org.

1328
01:18:36,680 --> 01:18:41,680
Speaker 3: Please consider what it would look like to donate to

1329
01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:44,920
Speaker 3: keep this podcast going, to keep the work that I'm

1330
01:18:44,960 --> 01:18:48,760
Speaker 3: talking about doing going, to keep our community. You can

1331
01:18:48,840 --> 01:18:51,760
Speaker 3: join us on Sunday nights at seven pm Central Time.

1332
01:18:51,840 --> 01:18:54,639
Speaker 3: Every Sunday night, seven pm Central Time, we host an

1333
01:18:54,640 --> 01:18:59,400
Speaker 3: online recovery meeting for anyone and everyone, and you know,

1334
01:19:00,040 --> 01:19:02,360
Speaker 3: if it's if it's if you know, one hundred people

1335
01:19:02,360 --> 01:19:05,640
Speaker 3: show up, we break it out and it's you know,

1336
01:19:06,040 --> 01:19:10,720
Speaker 3: so it's not like this massive, overwhelming thing. We try

1337
01:19:10,720 --> 01:19:13,840
Speaker 3: to keep it to where you can talk and chat,

1338
01:19:13,880 --> 01:19:17,880
Speaker 3: and so I open up with an encouragement. We have

1339
01:19:17,920 --> 01:19:23,000
Speaker 3: a time to share and pointing people to the ultimate

1340
01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:25,320
Speaker 3: source of healing. So you can find a link for

1341
01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:27,160
Speaker 3: that if you go to Veritas Recovery dot org. And

1342
01:19:27,200 --> 01:19:30,840
Speaker 3: if you feel led to give anything five dollars, ten dollars,

1343
01:19:30,880 --> 01:19:35,640
Speaker 3: fifty dollars to continue this work. I cannot tell you

1344
01:19:35,680 --> 01:19:41,760
Speaker 3: the amount of feedback and emails and dms that I

1345
01:19:41,800 --> 01:19:45,559
Speaker 3: get every week about people who are just like you,

1346
01:19:45,600 --> 01:19:48,880
Speaker 3: who are grateful for the conversations that we are having

1347
01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:52,479
Speaker 3: on this podcast but also elsewhere, and so I appreciate any.

1348
01:19:52,280 --> 01:19:54,760
Speaker 4: Support that you can give. Check out life audio dot com.

1349
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:58,719
Speaker 3: Life Audio is the partner that makes this podcast possible

1350
01:19:58,880 --> 01:20:01,519
Speaker 3: and they have been such a good partner and I

1351
01:20:01,720 --> 01:20:05,040
Speaker 3: am honored to point people to them every week.

1352
01:20:05,200 --> 01:20:05,800
Speaker 4: Love you all.

1353
01:20:05,880 --> 01:20:08,400
Speaker 3: If you want to watch this, check it out at

1354
01:20:08,439 --> 01:20:11,839
Speaker 3: the Veritasdaily dot com. You can watch every single episode.

1355
01:20:12,080 --> 01:20:14,559
Speaker 3: We will see you here next week.