1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this 9 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian and doctor James Spencer and I 10 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: am joined today by Ashish Varma, but also. 11 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 2: Doctor Michael Moko. 12 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: Mike is a former professor of counseling at Moody Bible 13 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: Institute and he continues in private practice and today we're 14 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: going to have a conversation about the intersection of mental 15 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,959 Speaker 1: health and faith and so excited to have you here. 16 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: Mike's great to see you. 17 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 2: Thanks, It's great to see both of you, and I 18 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 2: can't wait to just explore this topic that is coming 19 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 2: really popular. I just saw a conference where it's titled 20 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:08,479 Speaker 2: the Convergence of Faith and Mental Health. Of churches are 21 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 2: doing things like they have a pastoral pastor of pastoral 22 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 2: care because it has become such a hot topic now, 23 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 2: even the relationship between faith and mental health. There's in 24 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 2: Chicago the Center for Religion and Psychotherapy. It is all 25 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 2: over the place, especially in the church world. I'll just say, 26 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 2: church world. 27 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: How do you see it? So I know a lot 28 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: of the counselors I've had on the podcast talk a 29 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 1: little bit about this idea that you're You know, they 30 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: experience a lot of people coming in to have a 31 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: paid friend, like there's not you know, big psychological issues 32 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: that need to be dealt with, but they're really coming 33 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: in to deal with what would normally have been identified 34 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: as sort of the normal anxieties and stressors. 35 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 2: Of the day. 36 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: Are you finding a lot of that and how does 37 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: that sort of intersect with this trend within the church. 38 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 2: So when I first started my practice over thirty years ago, 39 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 2: i specialized in couples, couples who couldn't get along, But 40 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 2: then I also do individuals. So an answer to your question, 41 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 2: yes and no, there are therapists who they just are 42 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 2: okay with renting a friend. They don't want to probe deeper, 43 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 2: maybe because they don't have the skills or they don't 44 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 2: know about them maybe themselves enough to do it. So 45 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 2: there's that, but there's also depression, anxiety. This idea of 46 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 2: I need to look in myself has become so much 47 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 2: more relative or in my generation, it's going to sound terrible. 48 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 2: No one ever talked about how do I feel. No 49 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 2: one talked about maybe I should go see someone, you know. 50 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 2: I remember in my own life after I experienced some 51 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 2: really traumatic losses, and I'll just be vulnerable. I was 52 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 2: a pastor at the time. I got up to preach 53 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 2: and I knew something wasn't right, and I just said, 54 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 2: here it is packed. It's at church, about one hundred 55 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 2: and fifty people. I just started the ball I'm at 56 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 2: the bulpit, I'm ready to preach. I can't even I 57 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 2: am crying. One of the elgers comes up. He puts 58 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 2: his arm around me, and he says, the pastor spoke 59 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 2: a powerful message. They sang a hymn and they closed. 60 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 2: I went home that day and I said, there are 61 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,359 Speaker 2: a lot of barnacles in my life that I need 62 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 2: to scrape off. And I sought some help. And that's 63 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 2: when I started to When I first started too, I 64 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 2: also thought who pastors the pastor, so yes, they're a 65 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 2: rent a friend. But there are those people who, because 66 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 2: trauma has been very I use the word trendy since 67 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 2: the nineties, there's trauma informed therapist who really want to 68 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 2: help people who have pushed things down to bring him 69 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 2: to the surface. That's a whole other topic. Sometimes it's denial. 70 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 2: It should be your best friend, and other times it 71 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 2: shouldn't be. So I can go off, but I want 72 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 2: to stay on topic. Very good. 73 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 3: So you sort of alluded to a lot of different 74 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 3: cross sections of people here. You've been a pastor, you've 75 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 3: been a professor of undergraduates, you have retired from that, 76 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 3: but you continue to be to have a practice, So 77 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 3: you're seeing people in mental health settings. There are stigmas 78 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 3: for different generations. But how has each of those different 79 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 3: elements of your practice pastor, professor, actual therapist and formed 80 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 3: the way that you think about both the pros of 81 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 3: why therapy is an important thing and it's a good thing, 82 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 3: that it seems like it's here to stay, but also 83 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 3: perhaps ways in which we might rely upon it wrongly, 84 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 3: over rely upon it. 85 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 2: So historically, and you know, I've done a lot of 86 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 2: work in Angola, Africa, Historically, I would go to my pastor, 87 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 2: I would go to mentors, older mentors who would guide 88 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 2: me and walk me through this. In other cultures you 89 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 2: still find this. I think maybe in the West we've 90 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 2: gotten so preoccupied with the appearance that everything is okay 91 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 2: that we'll go into a back room to see someone, 92 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 2: but we won't just become you know, authentic and say, hey, 93 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 2: I struggle with a lot of different things. But as 94 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:49,239 Speaker 2: I understand my transformation, the transformation process, God is still 95 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 2: working in me, and you can take these things and 96 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 2: what might be a label or a diagnosis might be 97 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 2: something that is a strength for me. So we used 98 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 2: to be you went to your pastor, you went to 99 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 2: your grandma, you went to some leader. Nowadays, because it 100 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 2: was a trend, I want to say, in the eighties 101 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 2: or the nineties where everything turned into we handed over 102 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 2: to the professionals. And there is a book called Faithful Angels. 103 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 2: I think that's the name of it. But it was 104 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: tooth therapists in the nineties who wrote about how this 105 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 2: idea of social workers have given up the field of 106 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 2: helping the oppressed, the poor, the widows, and they have 107 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 2: gotten into it so that they can have a very 108 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 2: nice income and live a good life, and they've sacrificed 109 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 2: the cause of social work for a cushy life, if 110 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 2: I can say that. And there's times when I've even 111 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 2: looked in the mirror and said mm. And I think 112 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 2: the passion that my wife and I had working in 113 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 2: Angola kind of mood. We were like, you know what 114 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 2: that kind of If I could say, it makes me 115 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 2: feel a little better. So I don't know if that 116 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 2: answers your question, but ask more and I'll open up 117 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 2: more for sure. 118 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 3: So you made the distinction of a distinctly Western sort 119 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 3: of setting. I have a couple of different contexts in mind. 120 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 3: One I think of a student that had years ago 121 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 3: from Puerto Rico. He was a middle aged man and 122 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 3: within the larger scope of class. In our discussion, he 123 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 3: mentioned that growing up he was very poor. But if 124 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 3: you asked him, are you poor, he would not have 125 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 3: said yes, because he never thought in those categories. It 126 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 3: wasn't until certain influences had begun to enter into to 127 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 3: try to show these people where the gaps were between 128 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 3: their way of life and what was perceived to be 129 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 3: the maturity of Western civilization that that idea entered into 130 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 3: his mind, and in retrospect he thought it actually impoverished 131 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 3: him to have that given to him. Now, I want 132 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 3: to put that next to I have a cousin who 133 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 3: has spent years in the IT world, but for the 134 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 3: last a little over a decade he has gravitated towards 135 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 3: psychology and mental health and he's actually very soon going 136 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 3: to be setting up in India a mental health practice, 137 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 3: but in a place that has a lot of stigma 138 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 3: against mental health therapy, not least because it's seen as 139 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 3: a Western science that overrides the Indian mind, the Indian 140 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,719 Speaker 3: ways of doing things. Now I want to put both 141 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 3: of those together. You recommend it to me years ago 142 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:45,839 Speaker 3: book Crazy Like Us, which is sort of taking up 143 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 3: this issue. Do you want to talk quickly what you 144 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 3: see as the thesis of that book, why you saw 145 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 3: it as important to recommend, and how would you speak 146 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 3: to these environments? 147 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 2: And I would beat you have normal psychology. First thing 148 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 2: we did was a kind of like set the stage 149 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 2: and begin to read this book. It's a globalization of 150 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 2: the American psyche and how we have the West is 151 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 2: so powerful, So any diagnosis comes out of the DSM five. 152 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 2: When I was doing research on trauma. It was very 153 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 2: difficult to find articles that were not connected to the DSM, 154 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 2: so I had to find people who are in Australia, 155 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 2: the Netherlands, UK who are writing. The premise of the 156 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 2: book is that we take our diagnosis because of this label. 157 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 2: In the DSM five just gives you criteria. So in 158 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 2: the DSM four, if you met criteria six criteria, you 159 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 2: would be considered Let's say manic, I mean major depressive 160 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 2: disorder when the DSM five or eight. When the DSM 161 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 2: five came at only six, so you could have not 162 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 2: a major depressive disorder, but when the five came, now 163 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 2: you have a major disressive disorder. So we take this 164 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 2: and they put it over different The author puts it 165 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 2: over different places, and one of them is especially telling. 166 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 2: When the tsunami hit, there were a therapists in the 167 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 2: States who said, oh my gosh, there's gonna be a 168 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:23,839 Speaker 2: tsunami of trauma, and so they gathered up all these 169 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 2: therapists who went there and they couldn't get past the language, 170 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 2: they couldn't get past the food, they couldn't get past 171 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 2: anything else. And one person who goes really sick stayed 172 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:37,359 Speaker 2: and saw how this community had dealt with different tsunamis 173 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 2: on different basis and just were resilient. They worked together, 174 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 2: they rebuilt, life went on for us it would be 175 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 2: like the end of the world. Then you know, you 176 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 2: go to like the last chapter was a man who 177 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 2: was eccentric or a unique in Madagascar. He comes here 178 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 2: and because of our society the way things are, he 179 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 2: ends up in the hospital being labeled schizophrenic. So the 180 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:14,719 Speaker 2: West has negated unique cultural peculiarities, community language, for all 181 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:19,319 Speaker 2: that kind of stuff that moves people along instead of 182 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 2: pulling them out and putting them in a psych word, 183 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 2: labeling them, giving them every kind of medication that over 184 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:30,839 Speaker 2: the long term, you know, it's like is it you're 185 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 2: going to be on this for life? Or as I 186 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 2: like to say, sometimes you know, I'm not against it, 187 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 2: but it's a cast. You put it on. When you're 188 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 2: done with it, you move on. And so when we 189 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 2: go to different cultures, it's ask questions and listen rather 190 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 2: than imputing what we think is right in our culture 191 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 2: to another culture. It's like when I would teach on empathy, 192 00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 2: I would tell my students, what is what utensils do 193 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 2: you eat with? Forksmen in a life. How many people 194 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 2: in this billion, how many multi billion world eat with that? 195 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,719 Speaker 2: I don't know how many people either hands or how 196 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 2: many people eat with chopsticks. I said, it looks different, 197 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 2: but that doesn't mean it's wrong or it's not good enough. 198 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,839 Speaker 2: And we have an epidemic of not being good enough, 199 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 2: always trying to be better. And even when it comes 200 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 2: to cultures though even the word developing culture as if 201 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 2: we are more developed than someone, in some ways we're 202 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 2: less developed. When we'd go to Angola, I was I 203 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 2: remember the first time we're in a tent in a 204 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 2: refugee camp in Sub Saharan Africa, and I did a 205 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 2: couple of weddings there and the couple were telling me 206 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 2: how the church assigns them to a couple who is 207 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 2: not related to either family and they meet with them 208 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 2: once a week for a year. And I was saying 209 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 2: to myself, Wow, that's developing. That's more developed than what 210 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 2: we have here, where the divorce rate is so high 211 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 2: and people are just you're on your own unless you 212 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 2: find a therapist or in a church where they have 213 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 2: someone who comes alongside of you. So the premise is 214 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 2: don't don't take what we have and make it like 215 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,439 Speaker 2: something that fits every single culture around the world. They 216 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 2: don't use a spork, a foon and a knife, we 217 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 2: don't use chopsticks, we don't use their hands. Simply bese 218 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 2: their hands. Let's just learn from each other. And what 219 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 2: we have lost in our culture today is a sense 220 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 2: of family community, people bearing one another's burdens, because if 221 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 2: you're a burden, you must be something must be wrong 222 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 2: with you, or you must have a weak spiritual life, 223 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 2: or you're in all of Job's friends when they mentioned 224 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 2: talk to him that same concept, so. 225 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: So Michael, when when you think about that sort of 226 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: that cross cultural aspect of what you're talking about there, 227 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: what I think I'm hearing is we have more to learn, 228 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: or we have something at least to learn. It's not 229 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: that we don't have anything to give. We definitely have 230 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: something to learn from these other cultures. Because part of 231 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: the reason that may be unhelpful to export these sort 232 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: of diagnoses from the West into these other areas is 233 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: because they've already got structures that are dealing with many 234 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: of these matters in ways that we've forgotten our independence, 235 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: our self reliance, are pull ourselves up by our bootstraps 236 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: sort of vibe has created an independence that now virtually 237 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: necessitates therapy. Right Whereas if you're in a culture that 238 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: is much more communal, mutual dependence happening within a community, 239 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: you have shared rituals, to shared symbolic structures, all those 240 00:14:55,880 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: kind of things, therapy becomes at a little bit lower lighted, 241 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: let's say, like less maybe not completely trivial, but certainly 242 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: less prominent than it is in our culture. Is that, 243 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: you know, sort of those all those different elements have 244 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: to be taken into account as we understand why therapy 245 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: is so crucial to us, why diagnosis is so crucial 246 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: to us, versus why it might not work in another place. 247 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 2: I agree with you seriously, if I could have to 248 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 2: boil it down. Yeah, it's all about relational connectedness. When 249 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 2: I was a pastor at a church in Chicago for 250 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 2: many years before I became a professor at Moody, I 251 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 2: was the pastor of families and small groups, and I 252 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 2: used to say, the more people are in small groups, 253 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 2: the less my phone will ring. Because they had a 254 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 2: net of people who would pray for you, who would 255 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 2: help you move, who would bring you meals when you 256 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 2: had a baby, and it was like, I want you 257 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 2: to be a part maybe relational community. And then these 258 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 2: communities would birth other communities, and then we would always 259 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 2: have a group in birther group and birth, and we'd 260 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 2: have grandfather groups and we have like seven or eighty 261 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 2: people come together like at the church. Oh. Ever, since 262 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 2: we started looking at we all came out of the 263 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 2: same community. But it's when you lose this idea of 264 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 2: relational connectedness, you've lost something that goes way back when 265 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 2: you read scripture look at you know, it was like 266 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 2: it was Israel and the tribes and all these different 267 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 2: people had one another. And it's ironic that when you 268 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 2: look at the New Testament you read all the one 269 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 2: another passages, but we become no, it's not about one another. 270 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 2: It's only me and not another. Yeah. Yeah, and even 271 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 2: even it's interesting how there's always there's a book I 272 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 2: used to say that my students always wanted to write 273 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 2: called your check Engine Light on how when you drive 274 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 2: your car and the check engine light goes on, most 275 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 2: people don't park in the ground. They called up a 276 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 2: service station. They go somewhere where someone else can help 277 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 2: a group of people. Whatever they talk about. It okay 278 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 2: in our in our own psyche, it's like we push 279 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 2: things away rather than saying, do you struggle with this? 280 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 2: I struggle with this? How'd you get over it? Well? 281 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 2: I did A, B and C. And the problem with 282 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 2: thinking Christian though, is as it's managing or walking through 283 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 2: a jungle. Because there are some people who say your 284 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 2: mental health are directly related to your spiritual health. Yes 285 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 2: and no, okay, because we all come out of family systems. 286 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 2: Moses had a problem with anger, and he kept having 287 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 2: a problem with anger, and God didn't let him lead 288 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 2: the people into the Promised Land because of his anger. 289 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 2: Abrahm had a problem with lying. Isaac had a problem 290 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 2: with lying. Jacob had a problem with lying. There are 291 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 2: systemic things that need to be address that you could 292 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 2: be a very spiritual person, have a walk with God, 293 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 2: but the family system that you come out of still 294 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 2: kind of gives you little dimples and wrinkles that are 295 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 2: okay if they don't damage other people. 296 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 1: Very helpful. 297 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 2: Go ahead. 298 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, So this brings up an interesting subpoint to me. 299 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 3: A lot of our lives are based upon the fragility 300 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 3: of our memory. 301 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 2: Right. 302 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 3: A lot of studies have shown more recently we have 303 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 3: prominent examples like the NBC News Brian Williams escapade that 304 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 3: our memories are highly unreliable. They're open to suggestion, they're 305 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 3: open to being nudged in directions subconsciously that we're not 306 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 3: even necessarily trying to create. And so studies have shown 307 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 3: in the last decade or so especially that therapy has 308 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 3: has to shift and has made some shifts because suggestiveness 309 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 3: within therapy sections has often resulted in the sudden creation 310 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 3: of memories that there's no outside evidence ever existed, or 311 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 3: there is no self understanding of such past traumas or 312 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 3: abuses having happened. Now, in light of that, therapists have 313 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 3: this odd position that's very different than what you describe, right, 314 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 3: of a community in which you're going to people that 315 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 3: their lives are intertwined with yours in a daily way. 316 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 3: The therapists you see from maybe an hour a week 317 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 3: or every other week doesn't really know you. There's a 318 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 3: bare you're almost by intention right in order to try 319 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 3: to be objective in a third party person. And now 320 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 3: they make certain suggestions to try to delve and understand, 321 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 3: and suddenly memories are created. Right, How does a therapist 322 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 3: take this dynamic into play right, recognizing that there is 323 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 3: a role for the therapist, There is an important work 324 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 3: to be done with a client, and yet at the 325 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 3: same time, the fact of this distance and the fragility 326 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 3: of memory create an environment in which you honestly can't 327 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 3: take everything at face value. How does the therapist work 328 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 3: through this and why is that instructive for a person 329 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 3: going in. 330 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 2: When you therapist assumes client is telling the truth, but 331 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 2: the truth that's relevant to the client. So you're if 332 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 2: you're a therapist worth your salt. You listen well and 333 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 2: you say, O, conneck the dots now in the last 334 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 2: ten years, No, in the last two years. Here's I 335 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 2: read an article three weeks ago, and then Wall Street Journal. 336 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 2: Three point two million people seek AI as their therapist 337 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 2: every day day, GPT chat, whatever it is they are 338 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 2: on there. Dear AI, I have a problem with my child. 339 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 2: What should I do? I have a problem with my boss. 340 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 2: I'm struggling with this and AI doesn't okay, So answer 341 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 2: your question. You have to stay relevant to what's happening, 342 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 2: and when you sort out there. There are many people 343 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 2: who narrative intertwines with everybody on Quora and Reddit, and 344 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 2: maybe Facebook or whatever, because they want to be a 345 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 2: part of something, and so they'll add something to it 346 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 2: and they find all these invisible community groups. Oh man, 347 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 2: that's me too. It's like, really, wasn't you. There's a 348 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 2: kernel of truth and they spin a whole costume around it. 349 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 2: And sometimes if you listen, well you'll hear inconsistencies or 350 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 2: My approach to therapy is not sit back and I 351 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:26,920 Speaker 2: just say how do you feel? How do you feel? 352 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 2: I'm a challenger. I ask questions. I say this doesn't 353 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 2: make sense. I ask what if you were this? Or 354 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 2: what about that? My therapy has moved to instead of 355 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 2: just listening and saying how do you feel, to be 356 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 2: more interactive. People don't want to go to therapists who 357 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 2: just say okay and they answer your question. It's if 358 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 2: you probe and you begin to untangle some of these things, 359 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 2: maybe a client will say, well, I really wasn't truthful? 360 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 2: Or what I will do as a a concept called leading, 361 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 2: I'll say I might say something like I think you're 362 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 2: not telling me everything, and they're like, what do you mean? 363 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 2: I say, you know what I mean? Now, I have 364 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,679 Speaker 2: no idea, but what I'm doing is I'm throwing a 365 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 2: hail Mary thinking that oh man, he or she must 366 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,679 Speaker 2: know something. Okay, this is what really the truth is, 367 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 2: and so they'll do that. But in terms of, you know, 368 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:30,640 Speaker 2: working with clients, therapists need to really, like, like I said, 369 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 2: stay present, stay up to date, and keep their tool sharp. 370 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 2: If I'm dull, you know, they say, a dull knife 371 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 2: does more damage in the sharp. If I am dull, 372 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 2: the therapeutic process is going to go flat and people 373 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 2: are going to have a bad experience. And if I 374 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 2: don't know my own stuff, then the counter transference gets 375 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 2: in the way or I fall into the web of 376 00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 2: the client's issues and they walk away disappointed. I like 377 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 2: to say, we get lost in the forest together rather 378 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,120 Speaker 2: than helping them find a way out. 379 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,880 Speaker 1: Do you do you coach any of your clients as 380 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: they come in on sort of what the best posture 381 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: for them to adopt in a counseling setting actually is, Mike, So, 382 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 1: I mean, it seems to me that it is a 383 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: two way street, right. They have to they have you 384 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 1: can only really react to what they're telling you to 385 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 1: some degree, and so there needs to be some level 386 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 1: of transparency from the client. But then they also have 387 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: to recognize that you don't know the full picture. And 388 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: so whatever advice you might give them, they still need 389 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: to sort of contextualize that, think about it, reflect on it. 390 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: Is that Is that something that you make clear with 391 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 1: clients or is that something that just emerges from the relationship. 392 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 2: Well, very clear. I tell my clients, I'm not Hudini. Okay, 393 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 2: the more you inform me, the more I can inform you. 394 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 2: But here's here's you know, there's a there's a concept 395 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 2: they use it in corporate America called the Johari window. 396 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 2: There's four quadrants. I see, you see, you don't see. 397 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 2: I see, I see you don't see. No one sees. 398 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 2: If you don't know how to ask the right questions 399 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 2: to help them see what they don't want you to see, 400 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 2: you'll never have that insight. And so I'll tell I'll 401 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 2: ask clients, have you been a therapy before? What went right? 402 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 2: What went wrong? I'm not about bashing of a therapist 403 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,199 Speaker 2: and saying oh yeah, now, it's just like, okay, I 404 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 2: don't want to repeat something that you've already went around. 405 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 2: What would make I'll ask them what would make this 406 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 2: therapeutic relationship profitable for you? So that when it comes 407 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 2: to termination, when we're down, you say that was worth it, 408 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 2: it was worth my investment, my time, whatever. And sometimes 409 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 2: they will say and basically I help them lead the 410 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 2: treatment plan if you want to put it into like 411 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 2: you know, assessment OLC. Come when it's a treatment plan, 412 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 2: It's like, okay, so our goal and I'll go back. 413 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 2: It's like, you know, if you're right, this is going 414 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 2: back to what you're abstract is what what's the thesis 415 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 2: of it? Now? Go back? Okay, you know you came 416 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 2: in here for this. Where are we in? What mile 417 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 2: marker are we in? I'm super big on metaphors, and 418 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 2: I have clients who say, wow, I was never enlightened 419 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 2: like that, and never, you know, no one ever gave 420 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 2: me a picture of what it is that I'm struggling 421 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 2: with or dealing with, or how I can best with 422 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 2: other people. 423 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 3: You you mention these practices for the therapist, How do 424 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 3: you prepare the I guess you can't prepare them. But 425 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 3: if you had a word of advice sort of to 426 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 3: piggyback on James's question to those entering into therapy, into 427 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:55,360 Speaker 3: that setting, what should a what should a person expect 428 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 3: out of therapy, and what do you see as a 429 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 3: common thing they're coming in with that maybe they should 430 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 3: set aside. 431 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 2: So when you take a trip, you know your destination. 432 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 2: You might not figure out how to get there because 433 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 2: there might be detours, but you know what the destination is. 434 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 2: Let's pretend that I got into therapy and I would 435 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 2: the therapist, I would hope, would ask me, you know, 436 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 2: what is it that you're coming what's the presenting problem? 437 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 2: And then how do you know when you feel like 438 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 2: you've gained enough insight that you can move on your way. 439 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 2: My goal is to to get myself out of a job. 440 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 2: As they say, there are there are therapists who in 441 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 2: our field we call chronics. They love chronic people who 442 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 2: will just go in because of insurance, just keep going 443 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 2: in for years. They don't want to do any work, 444 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 2: and the therapist loves this because they don't have to 445 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 2: do work that make excuses whatever. So it's for the 446 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 2: person coming in, it's where do you want to go? 447 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 2: Or do you just want to be like the Israelites 448 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 2: wandering for forty years thinking there's a promised land? But 449 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 2: you know, where do you want to go? What do 450 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 2: you want to get out? Of it. Again, I can 451 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,439 Speaker 2: only help you to the extent that you give me 452 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 2: as much insight, but I also have to be a 453 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 2: part of that process. And you know, when it comes 454 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 2: to like, it's interesting this whole field of the church 455 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 2: and mental health. It's the healthier people are, the more 456 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 2: they can engage with other people in the church. People 457 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 2: usually leave church because of relational differences something like that. 458 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 2: But again, it all boils down to how do we 459 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 2: view ourselves in relationship to others. And if we have 460 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 2: a faulty view of self everywhere we go, we will 461 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 2: think something's wrong with me. When we might go into 462 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 2: a situation that stinks like a skunk and say, wow, 463 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 2: I smell. No, your environment is toxic. It's the word 464 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 2: or it smells or it's unhealthy, and it's like, no, 465 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 2: that's not me because I know how I smell and 466 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 2: I don't smell like that. And I'm not going to 467 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 2: own someone else's issues because that's what people will do, 468 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 2: especially when you see it in the church, at workplace wherever, 469 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 2: they will dump their stuff on you. And if you 470 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 2: don't say sorry, I'm gonna hose myself off with my 471 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 2: raincoat and walk out because that's yours to carry and 472 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 2: not mine. So again, when you go in knowing who 473 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 2: do I bring into who's the person I bring into 474 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 2: the therapeutic relationship? How do I view myself? And then 475 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 2: if you want to talk about this from a Christian perspective, 476 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 2: is how do I view God? And how do I 477 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 2: think God views me? So much of life revolves around 478 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 2: how I feel and if you think about myself when 479 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 2: I'm in the context of others, because if others are 480 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 2: constantly projecting and projecting and I don't interpret they're going 481 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 2: through something, I'm gonna I'm gonna think that something is 482 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 2: again the same words, not good enough, I'm in trouble, 483 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 2: I don't belong you know, how come I misunderstood all 484 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 2: the time. And so it all goes down to when 485 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 2: you go into into a therapy or relationship, this is 486 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 2: what I'm at, This is where I want to Where 487 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 2: I'm at, this is where I want to be. It's 488 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 2: never perfect or that this never comes to an end, 489 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 2: but I know I'm on the journey towards someone who 490 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 2: I feel really comfortable with that God has made me 491 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 2: in my unique personality in the family system, that He 492 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 2: has placed me in and in an environment where I 493 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 2: feel like I can add something, you too. But if 494 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 2: someone doesn't value themselves, they're not going to value you. 495 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 2: Because in the church, the worst thing I see even 496 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 2: you know, even in academia, jealousy, envy, all these things 497 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 2: that because someone has a greater insight or has a 498 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 2: personality that's more attractive or sees things differently, and that 499 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 2: is threatening to people. 500 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 3: So let's see an envy in academia. 501 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 2: No, no, no, never, never never. 502 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: You never saw any of that. 503 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 2: And it's like, you know, and it all goes back 504 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 2: to like, hey, this is how I with a fourkspeen 505 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 2: of a knife. You're using chopsticks. Something's wrong with you. 506 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really funny you say that, Mike, because I've 507 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: just been going through this exercise. We're trying to figure out, 508 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: you know, over the next five ten years, you know, 509 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: where do I want to go professionally and that kind 510 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: of thing. And part of the struggle has been this 511 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: doesn't seem good enough, right, and so you start looking 512 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: out at other people who are doing these other things. 513 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: You're like, yeah, what I'm doing isn't good enough. I 514 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: feel like I could do so much more or whatever. 515 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: And I've had to sort of curb some of those. Obviously, 516 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: part of that's good, you know, you want to be ambitious, 517 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: But then you also have to recognize, like I also 518 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: have very specific limitations and things that I don't want 519 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: to give up in order to pursue this, And so 520 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: you start to sort of situate all these different pieces together. 521 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: But I would say, I, you know, I was fighting jealousy, 522 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: I was fighting frustration. You know, I was fighting those feelings. 523 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: So it's just kind of interesting to think through what 524 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: is your desired state? It can't usually, at least in 525 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: my experience, hasn't been a only vocationally. I just want 526 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: to do this vocationally and nothing else matters. It's almost 527 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: always within a system of relationships where you're sitting back 528 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: and saying, well, what is my desired state at the 529 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: end of five, ten, fifteen years. Who do I want 530 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: to be as a family man, Who I want to 531 00:32:58,560 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: be as a Christian? 532 00:32:59,320 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 2: Who do I want to be? 533 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: You know, all these different aspects have to kind of 534 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 1: come together. My other question for you, which I find 535 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 1: so your comments about you know, you have to kind 536 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: of know what your destination is. So I've consulted with 537 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: a number of different organizations over the years, and one 538 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: of the things I've found is they almost always call 539 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: me because they feel like they have a recruitment and 540 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: a marketing problem. Right, that's always the issue, Right, we're 541 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: short on enrollment, which means we're short on money, which 542 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: means we need your help to help build our marketing 543 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:34,479 Speaker 1: and recruitment are And I'll get into the organization and 544 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: it starts to become clear that they don't they don't 545 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: know what that destination is. And so I've always found 546 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: it to be interesting as a consultant. You kind of 547 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: go in and you're talking with people and you're trying 548 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: to help them understand that this one little pain point 549 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: isn't quite what they're shooting for. Yes, they need to 550 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: solve for it to some degree, but there's something bigger 551 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: they need to develop. Do you find you do that 552 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: in therapy as well, Like somebody comes in with almost 553 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: a destination that's shorting where you think they need to 554 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: go and sort of expanding their vision of who they 555 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,240 Speaker 1: desire to be long term in the future. 556 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 2: Yes, So what you said in the James in the beginnings, 557 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 2: some like with corporations or people or whatever, they feel 558 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 2: like they're stuck. Yeah, here's the irony. And it's the 559 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 2: strangest thing. People are more afraid of being successful, you know, 560 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 2: than they are. Everyone knows they're going to experience failure. 561 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 2: But it's like me be like write a book that 562 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 2: people read. Me, has to be to speak at some 563 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 2: whatever me. It's like no, no, no, And so it's 564 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 2: like I'll challenge people. If not you, who or how come? 565 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 2: Where does this mindset? And the especially Price followers, they 566 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 2: confuse this with humility. I'm like, and maybe you should 567 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 2: do a all said about himself? Okay, but it's like, 568 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 2: if you're really good at something, then shine, shine and 569 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,359 Speaker 2: know that. You know. When you were talking, it was 570 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 2: like it came to a place in life where I 571 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 2: realized I needed to be the best person God made 572 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:21,399 Speaker 2: me to be. Are people you know. I don't listen 573 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 2: to Taylor Swift, but she to sing a song called 574 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 2: I Think It goes like people throw rocks at things 575 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 2: that shine. I phrase something like that. I don't some 576 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,320 Speaker 2: young person would know it. Maybe not, but people I thought, wow, 577 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:36,760 Speaker 2: what a great title of our song. People throw rocks 578 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:42,879 Speaker 2: at things that shine, and some things maybe are generational 579 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 2: it's like, no, that's not what you do. No, maybe, 580 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 2: but that's maybe back then, but today, no, you need 581 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:53,280 Speaker 2: to do that. Otherwise what happens is you stay stuck 582 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 2: and then then anger and resentment comes in. And you know, 583 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 2: there's a book, right, I don't even know. We used 584 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,319 Speaker 2: to always bring in books in the classroom and tell 585 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 2: students and they were too kind of like, oh, to 586 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 2: know anything about reading it. But it's by a guy 587 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,399 Speaker 2: named James Hollis called Finding Meaning in the Second Half 588 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 2: of Life, okay, and he looks at the second half 589 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 2: of life after forty right. But the book is it's 590 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,760 Speaker 2: a fascinating book about when you get to a place 591 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 2: in life you understand that so much of the interaction 592 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 2: we have with other people is their own insecure projections 593 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 2: on other people. And if you're in an environment and 594 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:43,399 Speaker 2: where there's a hierarchy, oh man, the projection is it 595 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,799 Speaker 2: is so blatant, and we have to understand that own 596 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 2: what's yours and discard what isn't because these are people who, 597 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 2: for whatever reason, well they cannot be wrong, they cannot 598 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 2: handle correct, they cannot see anything different because it is 599 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 2: affront to their own little world of whether it's control 600 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:15,320 Speaker 2: or power or whatever. But projection happens so often in life. 601 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 2: When I work with couples, it's like they usually just 602 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 2: respond this, don't respond in a negative way. Look at 603 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 2: your spouse and say, it sounds like you're having a 604 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 2: frustrating time in life, but you haven't really told me 605 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 2: what you're frustrated about, and you're just slinging mud at me. 606 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 2: And they're like, wow. But it's this idea of when 607 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 2: you when you work, when you live long enough, you say, 608 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,719 Speaker 2: it's like all these books that were around in the New 609 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 2: York Times bestseller about four or five years ago. You 610 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 2: know what the aff do I care what people think 611 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,240 Speaker 2: about me? Or the same author who gives a sahi 612 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 2: whatever about like, you know what people think? It doesn't matter. 613 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,799 Speaker 2: How come that matter so much? They don't they don't 614 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 2: pay our bills, They don't live with the person I 615 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 2: live with, or have the children I have, or have 616 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 2: the hobbies or interests I do. So what do I care? 617 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I mean I think Friedman's book Failure of 618 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: Nerve it resonates with a lot of what he talks 619 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: about in there, the non anxious presence, the self differentiated 620 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: leadership concept. I think those ideas. I ran across those 621 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:25,839 Speaker 1: right at the right time toward my last few years 622 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 1: at Moody, and they were really helpful because they do 623 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,839 Speaker 1: sort of if you can learn how to do it, 624 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:37,920 Speaker 1: like not take things personally, not be defensive, they really 625 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: do sort of allow you to be calm in the 626 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: midst of tumultuous situations where you're recognizing, yes, there's a 627 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 1: lot of this that is my responsibility, there's also a 628 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 1: lot of it that's not, and there's not a whole 629 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 1: lot I can do about that. I can't solve all 630 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,279 Speaker 1: the problems. I can really be responsible for myself and 631 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: what I can do, and then everybody else needs to 632 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,759 Speaker 1: sort of feel you're out not figure out their own 633 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 1: lives in a bad way. But you do have a 634 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 1: sense where it's like I can't be the solution to 635 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 1: everyone's problems, and there is a calmness to that. It 636 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:19,919 Speaker 1: creates a piece I suppose, not a callousness, but a piece. 637 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, And the beginning of it is always say this 638 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 2: to my students, because I get to say it to myself. 639 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 2: What kind of people annoy you so for me? Ignorant people, 640 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 2: people who are I'm just be stupid and think they 641 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 2: know so much more, and I just shake my head 642 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 2: and sometimes it's okay. I remember, sometimes it's okay just 643 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 2: to shut your mouth and act like a fool, because 644 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 2: there's a saying that that forgo. They used to tell us, 645 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 2: the higher a monkey climbs, the more he exposes himself. 646 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,280 Speaker 2: And it's like that. It's like, let these people babble 647 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 2: on for what because their ignorance is just so pathetic. 648 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:04,399 Speaker 2: And I used to say, Okay, you know what, they're 649 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,760 Speaker 2: gonna annoy you, but just let it go and walk away. 650 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 2: They're not like back in the day in your classroom. 651 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 2: But when they when they're ignorance, trive to control me. 652 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 2: Oh man, I would be like, take that leash off 653 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 2: of me. You know, microman and micromanaging people. You said, 654 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 2: you just drive me crazy. Yeah, but again I had 655 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 2: to be learned. Okay, you know what, what is it 656 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:32,720 Speaker 2: about this person? Interpret the person? Otherwise you will become 657 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 2: the problem. Yeah, and you know it's hard to get 658 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,239 Speaker 2: out of that. Sometimes it definitely is. But all this 659 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,319 Speaker 2: relates to like how we again going back to what 660 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,360 Speaker 2: I said earlier, our relationship and relationship to other people 661 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:53,840 Speaker 2: and being okay with who you are and your emotional state, 662 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 2: your physical state, your spiritual state, all those things because 663 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,759 Speaker 2: God has uniquely made each one of us, and he 664 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 2: talked about it. The body of Christ is made up 665 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 2: of different parts, you know. And if we're okay with 666 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,839 Speaker 2: how He's made us, what we're interested in, and and 667 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:14,239 Speaker 2: just how we impact other people in that world, we're okay. 668 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,719 Speaker 3: At the risk of opening up a larger can than 669 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:27,840 Speaker 3: we have time for, I'm gonna do it anyway, because 670 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 3: it's what I do. 671 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:33,759 Speaker 2: That's the one thing I always appreciate about you. You know. 672 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,279 Speaker 2: I thought about you today because the church I go 673 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 2: to has a pastor who's really passionate about the arts. 674 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 2: And so my wife put this beautiful woodblock print in 675 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,440 Speaker 2: and she was talking to this guy, and he had 676 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 2: never heard of the book Faith and Art or you know, 677 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 2: the the and I forgot his name, the Japanese guy 678 00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:03,359 Speaker 2: who has these incredible works of art let he puts around. Yeah, yeah, 679 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 2: that's great. 680 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 3: So as a theologian, I live in a world sometimes 681 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:15,399 Speaker 3: where there's understandably so much weight placed upon our relationship 682 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,480 Speaker 3: with God, and it's it's an odd thing for theologion 683 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:24,880 Speaker 3: to say, perhaps so skewed that we forget that our 684 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,800 Speaker 3: relationship with God is in the context of relationship with others. 685 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 3: And you bring up the body of Christ's imagery right 686 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:36,320 Speaker 3: where there's there's two entailments from it that Christ is 687 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 3: our head, but also there's a whole bunch of other 688 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 3: people around us that are part of the body with 689 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,520 Speaker 3: this that we work together with. Right now. I bring 690 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:49,880 Speaker 3: this up because this podcast is thinking Christian. We want 691 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 3: faith to be something that's not just on the back burner. 692 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,239 Speaker 3: And yet there has been a stigma that I think, 693 00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,320 Speaker 3: even in the changing climate, still exists in some forms. 694 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:03,600 Speaker 3: And you know, we had a former president of Moody 695 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 3: who we won't name, who got up in front of 696 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:10,200 Speaker 3: everyone and said, uh, we have all these mental health problems. 697 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:11,920 Speaker 3: All you need is to read your Bible more and 698 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:19,240 Speaker 3: have a better relationship with God. I think we're probably 699 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:23,120 Speaker 3: all on the same page here of so way too simplified. 700 00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 2: Opened so much cancer. I was on a comittee. I 701 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:30,319 Speaker 2: told you doesn't that wanted to get rid of that 702 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 2: person to person counseling center And because of the bottom 703 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,160 Speaker 2: line and pay I'm not going to even say how 704 00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,520 Speaker 2: much money it was every year to a phone service 705 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,399 Speaker 2: that a student could any time, And it was like, 706 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,320 Speaker 2: they don't even know our theology, they don't know the student. 707 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,759 Speaker 2: This is not relevant, This isn't even zoom, this is 708 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,080 Speaker 2: just a phone. It could be like some person in 709 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,240 Speaker 2: some country I won't even mention around the world who's 710 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,040 Speaker 2: up at it during the day when it's night. And 711 00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:06,200 Speaker 2: I was like, what the heck? Yeah, so that's a 712 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 2: whole can of worms that we have to go off camera. 713 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:14,080 Speaker 3: For for sure. For sure, so somebody on camera part 714 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,399 Speaker 3: of it. In light of that reality where I'm sure 715 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,480 Speaker 3: there's still a lot of people who are saying, I 716 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:23,200 Speaker 3: think mental health therapy might help me, but I know 717 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,120 Speaker 3: that if I do it, there's a whole group of 718 00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:30,680 Speaker 3: people that will look down upon me because they'll say, 719 00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:34,000 Speaker 3: your relationship with God isn't good enough. Why is it 720 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:40,319 Speaker 3: important in your in your thinking for someone to recognize 721 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,319 Speaker 3: that faith in God as fulfilled in the person of 722 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,800 Speaker 3: Christ and lived by the very breath of God given 723 00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:54,080 Speaker 3: to us. Takes seriously that engaging in mental health therapy 724 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:58,200 Speaker 3: with another human being is not different from trusting God. 725 00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:09,360 Speaker 2: We compartmentalize the emotional well being from anything else, so 726 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 2: Let's say that I was eighty pounds overweight and I 727 00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,759 Speaker 2: came to Jim and I said, Jim, you know, can 728 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,040 Speaker 2: you help me? And he would say, you know, you 729 00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:24,160 Speaker 2: have to pray your weight away. You have to like 730 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:28,719 Speaker 2: just read the Bible or you'll become like Eli who 731 00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 2: fell over and whatever. But how come I could go 732 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 2: to Jim and Jim isn't going to say to me 733 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:41,799 Speaker 2: or James, sorry, Ok'll good that. Hey, you know what, 734 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,240 Speaker 2: I can't help you. First, you have to get God's 735 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,319 Speaker 2: help and then maybe you know because but how can 736 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:52,680 Speaker 2: we compartmentalize so many things but yet the one area 737 00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:59,120 Speaker 2: that is so relevant to our faith walk? If I 738 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,919 Speaker 2: see my self as less than how can I ever 739 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,880 Speaker 2: believe God can use me unless I'm so Unless I 740 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,040 Speaker 2: go to First Corinth and say He takes the foolish 741 00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,680 Speaker 2: things me of this role to confound the wise. But 742 00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:16,000 Speaker 2: how can I ever believe that I'm good enough to 743 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,760 Speaker 2: lead a Bible study, I'm good enough to be someone 744 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:26,160 Speaker 2: who engages in helping youth if I'm constantly struggling with 745 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:31,239 Speaker 2: you know what this as one pastor years ago said 746 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,960 Speaker 2: worm theology. And all I do is feel like I 747 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:38,080 Speaker 2: just crawl across the ground and I'm not good enough 748 00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:42,160 Speaker 2: except be careful and I'm stepped on? How does that 749 00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,200 Speaker 2: fit into how God wants to use me? And when 750 00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:48,279 Speaker 2: you look at Scripture, it was like every you know, 751 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,760 Speaker 2: Moses was a great leader. Do he have his issues, yes, 752 00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,160 Speaker 2: but he led the people out. Look at Paul, all 753 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:58,600 Speaker 2: of these people they had issues, okay, And yet in 754 00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:01,360 Speaker 2: our world we can say no, no, no, forget this, 755 00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:06,600 Speaker 2: just follow the boy. Scripture is good, it's it's relevant 756 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,680 Speaker 2: for everything. But yet all those people had something we 757 00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:13,560 Speaker 2: never had. They had elders, they had families, they had 758 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:18,440 Speaker 2: other people who carried and guided them. When you're all alone, 759 00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:24,480 Speaker 2: life becomes really scary. But when you're in real community, 760 00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,320 Speaker 2: not fake community where you show up on Sunday morning 761 00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,120 Speaker 2: for an hour and hour and half and then you leave, 762 00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,560 Speaker 2: you know, like it's a baseball game or something. Real 763 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:37,080 Speaker 2: community where people are interested, they have you over, you know, 764 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:41,279 Speaker 2: their kids, their lives. That is all part of the 765 00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:47,240 Speaker 2: growth process because you let them inside of your very fears, 766 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:52,640 Speaker 2: your insecurities, your struggles, and they're like, I'm gonna pray, 767 00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,000 Speaker 2: not so my prayer can be a gossipline. I'm gonna 768 00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,239 Speaker 2: pray so that you might be encouraged, And I'm gonna 769 00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:03,680 Speaker 2: be here so you're couraged. What makes a a so 770 00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:09,040 Speaker 2: effective any time of the day. I can call my 771 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:13,680 Speaker 2: sponsor anytime of day. I'm struggling anytime of the day. Okay, 772 00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:18,000 Speaker 2: But he doesn't say, Hey, you know what did you 773 00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,520 Speaker 2: talk to God before you called me? Now, it's an 774 00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:25,359 Speaker 2: assumption of we are the body. I'm an extension. I'm 775 00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:30,359 Speaker 2: his hands and feet. But our world says, don't inconvenience 776 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:34,560 Speaker 2: me only if I get a benefit from it? Was 777 00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:38,960 Speaker 2: it now? When who talked about a disinterested love? He said, 778 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,759 Speaker 2: when we invest, we want interest, but when we liber 779 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,760 Speaker 2: oal lives of people, we should be with no expectation 780 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,640 Speaker 2: of interest back just give because of that's what we're 781 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:53,000 Speaker 2: supposed to do. Yeah, and we you know, when we 782 00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,840 Speaker 2: I can only speak of like Angola. But I remember 783 00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:00,560 Speaker 2: leaving when we said these. Now I under understand what 784 00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:05,799 Speaker 2: it means when Scripture said that you have I have 785 00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:09,319 Speaker 2: bred you know nothing about went there and it was 786 00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,000 Speaker 2: like wow that they have back in the day, cell phones, 787 00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:17,160 Speaker 2: no internet, no running still today many electricity no running 788 00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:19,680 Speaker 2: one and no but they have bread. I know nothing 789 00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:25,080 Speaker 2: about because they have each other and church was there. 790 00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:29,600 Speaker 2: Even to this day, their lives revolve around church, not 791 00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,680 Speaker 2: because it's a to do thing, but it's a people 792 00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:37,040 Speaker 2: relational thing. Yeah, and I think you know we talk 793 00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:45,280 Speaker 2: about our mental health Christian walk. It cannot be compartmentalized. 794 00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:49,359 Speaker 2: It has to be intertwined because even the person who 795 00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:54,920 Speaker 2: was quote unquote unique or eclectic finds his place or 796 00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:59,239 Speaker 2: her place. HM. Very good. 797 00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,160 Speaker 1: Well, Mike, thanks for being here. This has been an 798 00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:06,680 Speaker 1: awesome conversation. Really appreciate you being on the show. And uh, 799 00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:10,680 Speaker 1: and thanks for sharing your insights with us or call 800 00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:15,799 Speaker 1: it a day there, but part two, we'd love to 801 00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:17,919 Speaker 1: have you back. This would be it would be great. 802 00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:19,759 Speaker 1: I know there's a lot of grounded didn't cover, so 803 00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:23,480 Speaker 1: you're welcome back anytime. We'll get your scheduled. This was 804 00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:27,480 Speaker 1: fantastic and I just really appreciate you being here. We'll 805 00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,160 Speaker 1: close it out today and uh, we'll catch you on 806 00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:32,879 Speaker 1: the next episode of Thinking Christian. Thanks everybody for being here. 807 00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:33,359 Speaker 2: Take care. 808 00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:35,200 Speaker 1: I just want to take a second to thank the 809 00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:37,719 Speaker 1: team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on 810 00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,879 Speaker 1: the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to Lifeaudio dot 811 00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:43,719 Speaker 1: com you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in 812 00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:47,160 Speaker 1: their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, 813 00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:47,919 Speaker 1: and more.