1 00:00:20,196 --> 00:00:23,236 Speaker 1: Hi friend, I'm so glad you're here today. Let's learn 2 00:00:23,276 --> 00:00:26,876 Speaker 1: how to raise our kids to love God, respect authority, 3 00:00:27,196 --> 00:00:31,036 Speaker 1: and do what's right. Let's scroll less and live more. 4 00:00:31,356 --> 00:00:38,796 Speaker 1: I'm Arlene Pelicane and this is the Happy Home. Hey friends. 5 00:00:38,836 --> 00:00:42,155 Speaker 1: Before we jump into today's conversation, I want to tell 6 00:00:42,196 --> 00:00:46,556 Speaker 1: you about National Marriage Week. National Marriage Week happens every 7 00:00:46,676 --> 00:00:50,876 Speaker 1: year from February seventh to fourteenth. I am the spokesperson 8 00:00:50,915 --> 00:00:54,596 Speaker 1: for National Marriage Week and we have this amazing free resource. 9 00:00:54,676 --> 00:00:59,036 Speaker 1: They are live streams that you can listen to from 10 00:00:59,075 --> 00:01:02,996 Speaker 1: February seventh to February thirteenth. Every day there's going to 11 00:01:03,036 --> 00:01:05,876 Speaker 1: be a marriage live stream to help you. This year's 12 00:01:05,916 --> 00:01:08,996 Speaker 1: theme is Together with Purpose. You're going to hear from 13 00:01:08,996 --> 00:01:14,236 Speaker 1: people like Gary Chapman, Shanti Feldon, Ron Deal, John Trent, 14 00:01:14,476 --> 00:01:17,236 Speaker 1: Jim Burns, all my friends, many of them that you've 15 00:01:17,276 --> 00:01:19,556 Speaker 1: heard right here on this podcast, and they're going to 16 00:01:19,556 --> 00:01:24,156 Speaker 1: be teaching how do we get along better? So you're 17 00:01:24,155 --> 00:01:28,036 Speaker 1: gonna want to check it out. Marriageweek dot org sign 18 00:01:28,116 --> 00:01:33,196 Speaker 1: up for those free live streams. Well, I am so 19 00:01:33,276 --> 00:01:35,356 Speaker 1: excited to have back on the podcast. 20 00:01:35,476 --> 00:01:35,996 Speaker 2: Ron Deal. 21 00:01:36,276 --> 00:01:39,116 Speaker 1: Ron has many books and today we're going to talk 22 00:01:39,155 --> 00:01:43,595 Speaker 1: about the news book, The Mindful Marriage, create your best 23 00:01:43,676 --> 00:01:50,196 Speaker 1: relationship through understanding and managing not your spouse but yourself. 24 00:01:50,916 --> 00:01:54,116 Speaker 1: And what's so amazing about this particular interview is we 25 00:01:54,276 --> 00:01:56,876 Speaker 1: also get to be joined by his better half, his 26 00:01:56,956 --> 00:01:59,716 Speaker 1: wife Nan. So thank you both so much for. 27 00:01:59,636 --> 00:02:01,836 Speaker 2: Being here today, Thanks for having me. 28 00:02:04,196 --> 00:02:07,596 Speaker 1: So people may be familiar with Ron because of family 29 00:02:07,636 --> 00:02:11,156 Speaker 1: life blended, because of the step family ministry that you 30 00:02:11,196 --> 00:02:15,716 Speaker 1: have had for so long. And I think sometimes people think, oh, 31 00:02:15,756 --> 00:02:18,316 Speaker 1: you're in ministry, you've written books. That must mean you 32 00:02:18,356 --> 00:02:21,876 Speaker 1: have no problems at all. That's nothing. 33 00:02:22,356 --> 00:02:25,636 Speaker 3: Let's set the record straight right now, Arlene. I'm sure 34 00:02:25,676 --> 00:02:28,115 Speaker 3: we confess the same thing. That is not true. We're 35 00:02:28,156 --> 00:02:31,596 Speaker 3: just regular people and we wrestle with things in life 36 00:02:31,675 --> 00:02:32,556 Speaker 3: just like everybody else. 37 00:02:32,716 --> 00:02:33,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. 38 00:02:33,796 --> 00:02:36,275 Speaker 1: And you begin the book by telling us that there, 39 00:02:36,395 --> 00:02:39,436 Speaker 1: you know, was a point in your marriage where communication 40 00:02:39,835 --> 00:02:43,996 Speaker 1: was just not happening. And even though you loved the Lord, 41 00:02:44,716 --> 00:02:47,636 Speaker 1: you loved each other, you were doing the right things, 42 00:02:47,675 --> 00:02:50,835 Speaker 1: you were not unfaithful to one another, but your marriage 43 00:02:50,996 --> 00:02:53,196 Speaker 1: was coming apart. And I think a lot of people 44 00:02:53,236 --> 00:02:55,756 Speaker 1: can relate to that. Can you bring us back to 45 00:02:56,316 --> 00:02:57,875 Speaker 1: where you were either. 46 00:02:57,636 --> 00:02:58,036 Speaker 3: One of you. 47 00:02:58,555 --> 00:03:01,676 Speaker 2: I you know, when you were saying that, I was thinking, 48 00:03:01,796 --> 00:03:04,675 Speaker 2: you know, what was happening in that moment. I mean, 49 00:03:04,716 --> 00:03:08,636 Speaker 2: we had three boys, Ron was cranking it out. We 50 00:03:08,675 --> 00:03:12,116 Speaker 2: had just moved to a new town, and so I'm 51 00:03:12,156 --> 00:03:16,115 Speaker 2: settling in, trying to get my boys settled, their preteen 52 00:03:16,476 --> 00:03:19,156 Speaker 2: and I'm then going to jump in and you know, 53 00:03:19,196 --> 00:03:22,516 Speaker 2: start teaching again, and I'm just trying to get home 54 00:03:22,596 --> 00:03:25,996 Speaker 2: and boys, and you know, everything settled. And I think 55 00:03:27,316 --> 00:03:32,036 Speaker 2: we just were doing the same dance that was not 56 00:03:32,356 --> 00:03:37,076 Speaker 2: working and hadn't been working for decades. And when you 57 00:03:37,436 --> 00:03:41,356 Speaker 2: have kids that are about to be preteen, especially boys 58 00:03:41,396 --> 00:03:44,595 Speaker 2: who need their dads, and then you're in a new 59 00:03:44,636 --> 00:03:49,836 Speaker 2: town trying to find new everything, and you've left and 60 00:03:50,116 --> 00:03:54,956 Speaker 2: uprooted from a place where we had been eleven years. 61 00:03:55,076 --> 00:03:58,556 Speaker 2: That was some deep roots and lots of security there. 62 00:03:58,916 --> 00:04:02,036 Speaker 2: And we were far away from family. I mean, to 63 00:04:02,276 --> 00:04:06,035 Speaker 2: drive to get to anybody was it was a long 64 00:04:06,076 --> 00:04:08,316 Speaker 2: ways away. I think I think really it was a 65 00:04:08,356 --> 00:04:12,836 Speaker 2: catalyst for the wheels to fall off anyway, honestly, But 66 00:04:13,076 --> 00:04:16,195 Speaker 2: we had already brought that stuff with us in that move. 67 00:04:16,956 --> 00:04:18,836 Speaker 2: We just kept doing the same dance. 68 00:04:19,116 --> 00:04:21,316 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's about that dance. Yeah, what is that 69 00:04:21,436 --> 00:04:23,476 Speaker 1: dance that you kept doing in the background. 70 00:04:23,836 --> 00:04:27,276 Speaker 2: Well, what you said at the beginning, I wanted him fixed. 71 00:04:28,076 --> 00:04:30,236 Speaker 2: I wanted to fix him. So I wanted to fix 72 00:04:30,276 --> 00:04:33,436 Speaker 2: him with lots of loud words and lots of control 73 00:04:33,596 --> 00:04:37,515 Speaker 2: and lots of blame, and I wanted to control the situation. 74 00:04:37,755 --> 00:04:39,716 Speaker 2: Say please stop doing what you're doing, and then I'd 75 00:04:39,755 --> 00:04:43,356 Speaker 2: be happy to be perfectly honest and told it was it. 76 00:04:43,396 --> 00:04:46,236 Speaker 3: That she wanted me to stop doing. I mean, this 77 00:04:46,315 --> 00:04:48,556 Speaker 3: is a two way street. Let me just say, as 78 00:04:48,596 --> 00:04:50,916 Speaker 3: you said, Arlene, it's important to say, neither one of 79 00:04:50,996 --> 00:04:56,236 Speaker 3: us had a moral failure, committed affair betrayal. We're like 80 00:04:56,276 --> 00:04:59,036 Speaker 3: a lot of couples who have a lot of great 81 00:04:59,315 --> 00:05:02,556 Speaker 3: in their relationship. And when we're happy, we're happy. And 82 00:05:02,596 --> 00:05:05,156 Speaker 3: when we're good, we're good. We're loving. We have deep 83 00:05:05,195 --> 00:05:08,116 Speaker 3: heart for one another. We served each other, we loved 84 00:05:08,116 --> 00:05:11,075 Speaker 3: our boys. We were highly engaged parents in our kids' 85 00:05:11,116 --> 00:05:12,996 Speaker 3: lives at that time. This is seventeen years ago when 86 00:05:12,996 --> 00:05:19,516 Speaker 3: all this hit, and yet the hard thing we did 87 00:05:19,596 --> 00:05:24,396 Speaker 3: not know how to navigate through. We got stuck. When 88 00:05:24,476 --> 00:05:26,676 Speaker 3: we either one of us got dysregulated, the other one 89 00:05:26,716 --> 00:05:28,836 Speaker 3: got disregulated, and then we were at odds and then 90 00:05:28,916 --> 00:05:32,156 Speaker 3: we would sort of meander our way around this argument 91 00:05:32,195 --> 00:05:33,876 Speaker 3: for a couple of weeks, trying to figure out how 92 00:05:33,916 --> 00:05:36,356 Speaker 3: to get through it. And at the end of the day, 93 00:05:36,596 --> 00:05:40,395 Speaker 3: even with the best will and the best intentions, we 94 00:05:40,516 --> 00:05:43,156 Speaker 3: really didn't resolve it. And so it just sort of 95 00:05:43,276 --> 00:05:47,076 Speaker 3: hung out there and we'd find our way back into 96 00:05:47,116 --> 00:05:49,996 Speaker 3: life and being okay, so to speak, and working and 97 00:05:50,036 --> 00:05:54,036 Speaker 3: going forward and do that for twenty years and then, 98 00:05:54,156 --> 00:05:58,716 Speaker 3: as Nan said, remove a hometown and people that loved 99 00:05:58,796 --> 00:06:02,396 Speaker 3: us and a support system and jump into this new role, 100 00:06:02,556 --> 00:06:05,756 Speaker 3: new job, new a lot of unknowns and a lot 101 00:06:05,755 --> 00:06:08,116 Speaker 3: of stress and baym it. 102 00:06:08,036 --> 00:06:10,156 Speaker 2: All came to a head and you know a lot 103 00:06:10,195 --> 00:06:13,876 Speaker 2: of ruptures, a lot of ruptures in communication or ruptures 104 00:06:13,876 --> 00:06:18,315 Speaker 2: and you know, expectations and no repair. Yes, and I 105 00:06:18,356 --> 00:06:20,996 Speaker 2: heard last week on a podcast to the Life of Me. 106 00:06:21,076 --> 00:06:23,195 Speaker 2: I can't remember it right now, but maybe I can 107 00:06:23,236 --> 00:06:25,636 Speaker 2: find it in my brain. You know how that goes. 108 00:06:25,676 --> 00:06:31,075 Speaker 2: But yeah, when you have ruptures, ruptures don't ruin the relationship. 109 00:06:31,156 --> 00:06:33,515 Speaker 2: It's the lack of repair. That was a quote I 110 00:06:33,516 --> 00:06:35,395 Speaker 2: heard last week. And I'll try to figure out who, 111 00:06:36,116 --> 00:06:38,716 Speaker 2: But lots of ruptures, and then we do those fly 112 00:06:38,796 --> 00:06:40,916 Speaker 2: bys where we eh, yeah, I don't think I want 113 00:06:40,916 --> 00:06:43,595 Speaker 2: to land there. We'll just keep doing the status quest. 114 00:06:43,556 --> 00:06:44,035 Speaker 3: Keep going. 115 00:06:44,236 --> 00:06:46,036 Speaker 2: Maybe I'll go over here and deal with the boys, 116 00:06:46,116 --> 00:06:48,236 Speaker 2: or maybe I'll go over here and deal with work, 117 00:06:48,356 --> 00:06:52,955 Speaker 2: or and there was never any repair, so for left 118 00:06:53,036 --> 00:06:56,156 Speaker 2: us with not much. 119 00:06:56,876 --> 00:06:59,075 Speaker 1: Before we get into like what does it mean to 120 00:06:59,116 --> 00:06:59,996 Speaker 1: be dysregulated? 121 00:06:59,996 --> 00:07:00,996 Speaker 3: Because I want to go there? 122 00:07:01,556 --> 00:07:03,236 Speaker 1: Give us, like in the beginning of the book, you 123 00:07:03,276 --> 00:07:05,676 Speaker 1: give us an example that I think really helps us 124 00:07:06,076 --> 00:07:09,475 Speaker 1: where you're going back and forth where Ron has asked 125 00:07:09,516 --> 00:07:11,516 Speaker 1: you on a date, and just kind of talk us 126 00:07:11,556 --> 00:07:13,116 Speaker 1: through that, because I think it helps us to see 127 00:07:13,756 --> 00:07:14,756 Speaker 1: what we're talking about. 128 00:07:14,916 --> 00:07:18,316 Speaker 3: Yeah, what's so great about this illustration is that it's 129 00:07:18,356 --> 00:07:22,956 Speaker 3: every cup experience. You have fabulous moments, you get along great, 130 00:07:23,516 --> 00:07:25,716 Speaker 3: and then all of a sudden, something turns, and then 131 00:07:25,716 --> 00:07:28,276 Speaker 3: you're not, like, what is the turn and why does 132 00:07:28,316 --> 00:07:30,756 Speaker 3: that happen? For us? The story we tell is I 133 00:07:30,796 --> 00:07:34,156 Speaker 3: asked her out on a date one night, And keep 134 00:07:34,196 --> 00:07:36,516 Speaker 3: in mind this was in the context of a season 135 00:07:36,556 --> 00:07:40,556 Speaker 3: of our life where I was very obsessed with earning 136 00:07:40,636 --> 00:07:42,836 Speaker 3: a paycheck from my home. We had moved to a 137 00:07:42,876 --> 00:07:46,836 Speaker 3: city and I was a freelance marriage and family educator therapist. 138 00:07:46,876 --> 00:07:49,676 Speaker 3: If I didn't speak, we didn't eat. I was trying 139 00:07:49,676 --> 00:07:51,636 Speaker 3: to figure out how to keep the lights on, which 140 00:07:51,676 --> 00:07:53,596 Speaker 3: meant I was in my head a lot. And by 141 00:07:53,636 --> 00:07:55,596 Speaker 3: the way, I was always in my head even before then, 142 00:07:55,716 --> 00:08:00,636 Speaker 3: so now it was even worse. And so that tapped 143 00:08:00,676 --> 00:08:04,156 Speaker 3: into something in her heart in life that goes way back, 144 00:08:04,196 --> 00:08:07,396 Speaker 3: and that is people who are unavailable to her when 145 00:08:07,436 --> 00:08:10,236 Speaker 3: she needs them, and so that was me. I was unavailable. 146 00:08:10,436 --> 00:08:13,196 Speaker 3: So when I asked her out on a date, She's like, yes, 147 00:08:13,356 --> 00:08:15,876 Speaker 3: he's thinking of me, he's interested. Okay, we're going to 148 00:08:15,916 --> 00:08:17,676 Speaker 3: go and do this, and I'm thinking, how do we 149 00:08:17,756 --> 00:08:21,396 Speaker 3: make this date fantastic? And I'm feeling so relieved. She said, yes, 150 00:08:21,636 --> 00:08:24,316 Speaker 3: we're going to enjoy ourselves. And then I think, what 151 00:08:24,396 --> 00:08:27,876 Speaker 3: would make it even better? I think, you know, she 152 00:08:27,996 --> 00:08:31,156 Speaker 3: loves being a friend sometimes too, so I said, what 153 00:08:31,236 --> 00:08:34,236 Speaker 3: if we ask somebody else to go with us? Well, 154 00:08:34,276 --> 00:08:37,276 Speaker 3: that sent a message of no, I'm not interested in 155 00:08:37,316 --> 00:08:40,396 Speaker 3: being with you, I'm interested in being with others. This 156 00:08:40,436 --> 00:08:43,516 Speaker 3: is not about us, this is about something else, and 157 00:08:43,596 --> 00:08:46,836 Speaker 3: that tap disappointment in her, and all of a sudden 158 00:08:46,836 --> 00:08:51,156 Speaker 3: she's feeling unwanted and now I'm going, well, wait, no, 159 00:08:51,276 --> 00:08:53,916 Speaker 3: that's not and now we're fighting. Like so you go 160 00:08:53,996 --> 00:08:57,396 Speaker 3: from one hundred percent good to one hundred percent bad 161 00:08:57,916 --> 00:09:01,116 Speaker 3: in a nanosecond. And I really think that's a very 162 00:09:01,156 --> 00:09:05,596 Speaker 3: common thing for a lot of people, sometimes regularly and 163 00:09:05,636 --> 00:09:08,716 Speaker 3: sometimes just sporadically. But we know what that's like. I 164 00:09:08,716 --> 00:09:09,836 Speaker 3: think most people do. 165 00:09:10,276 --> 00:09:12,876 Speaker 1: When later I want to go back to that same 166 00:09:12,956 --> 00:09:16,636 Speaker 1: situation of knowing what you know now, how you would 167 00:09:16,676 --> 00:09:21,236 Speaker 1: have handled it good? Explain like being disregulated? What does 168 00:09:21,276 --> 00:09:21,716 Speaker 1: that mean? 169 00:09:22,196 --> 00:09:25,396 Speaker 3: Okay, well, you know you know the brain science because 170 00:09:26,036 --> 00:09:28,556 Speaker 3: we've actually talked about this in your work with screen 171 00:09:28,676 --> 00:09:32,076 Speaker 3: kids and what parents need to know about children. So 172 00:09:33,236 --> 00:09:40,156 Speaker 3: dysregulation is anytime that you feel unsafe or you feel 173 00:09:40,156 --> 00:09:42,476 Speaker 3: like there's a challenge to your sense of identity and 174 00:09:42,516 --> 00:09:46,956 Speaker 3: being loved. Those are the two principal things that trigger this. 175 00:09:47,796 --> 00:09:52,236 Speaker 3: What's happening neurologically when we're dysregulated is that the prefronal cortex, 176 00:09:52,276 --> 00:09:53,876 Speaker 3: the part of our brain that does all the thinking 177 00:09:53,956 --> 00:09:57,716 Speaker 3: and pondering and considering and deciding and choosing, and by 178 00:09:57,716 --> 00:09:59,876 Speaker 3: the way, the part of us that knows God's will 179 00:10:00,116 --> 00:10:03,516 Speaker 3: and wants to live it. That's where that comes from, 180 00:10:03,596 --> 00:10:06,556 Speaker 3: that part of the brain that really understands truth and 181 00:10:06,596 --> 00:10:10,836 Speaker 3: wants to move toward that. But when we feel upset 182 00:10:10,876 --> 00:10:14,716 Speaker 3: about something unloved or unsafe, there's another part of the 183 00:10:14,716 --> 00:10:17,276 Speaker 3: brain that kicks in. That's the limbic system, sometimes called 184 00:10:17,316 --> 00:10:21,076 Speaker 3: the amygdala or the mid brain, and it only knows 185 00:10:21,076 --> 00:10:23,076 Speaker 3: how to do one thing, and that's to self protect 186 00:10:23,436 --> 00:10:28,796 Speaker 3: and preserve life, preserve itself. And it kicks in saying, WHOA, 187 00:10:28,956 --> 00:10:33,916 Speaker 3: something's threatening here, and that threat needs to be either eliminated. 188 00:10:33,996 --> 00:10:36,676 Speaker 3: That's fight, or I need to get away from it. 189 00:10:36,876 --> 00:10:39,596 Speaker 3: That's flight. Fight or flights. Pretty much all it knows 190 00:10:39,596 --> 00:10:40,956 Speaker 3: how to do. Now, this is the part of the 191 00:10:40,956 --> 00:10:44,836 Speaker 3: brain that we need when the rattlesnake shows up, when 192 00:10:44,836 --> 00:10:48,076 Speaker 3: the dog shows its teeth, when somebody crosses the double 193 00:10:48,156 --> 00:10:51,036 Speaker 3: yellow line and heads into your lane while you're driving 194 00:10:51,076 --> 00:10:53,396 Speaker 3: on the highway. This is the part of the brain 195 00:10:53,476 --> 00:10:56,196 Speaker 3: we need. When somebody pulls a knife in a crowded 196 00:10:56,316 --> 00:10:58,636 Speaker 3: room and you're looking at him and he's looking at you. 197 00:10:59,556 --> 00:11:02,716 Speaker 3: This is the I need to self protect and preserve 198 00:11:02,916 --> 00:11:06,596 Speaker 3: fight or flight. It's God given. Thank you very much, 199 00:11:06,636 --> 00:11:08,916 Speaker 3: Lord for making this because we don't have to pull 200 00:11:08,956 --> 00:11:10,796 Speaker 3: a committee together and decide what to do about the 201 00:11:10,836 --> 00:11:13,676 Speaker 3: guy with the knife. We can just run right, Okay, 202 00:11:13,996 --> 00:11:17,196 Speaker 3: that's what it's for. But here's the goofy thing about 203 00:11:17,236 --> 00:11:20,876 Speaker 3: that part of your brain activated when you feel threatened 204 00:11:21,796 --> 00:11:27,476 Speaker 3: or even think you're being threatened. And so my brain 205 00:11:27,556 --> 00:11:30,876 Speaker 3: doesn't know how to distinguish that from a rattlesnake, from 206 00:11:30,916 --> 00:11:34,916 Speaker 3: my wife's criticism. It doesn't know how to distinguish somebody 207 00:11:34,916 --> 00:11:38,556 Speaker 3: pulling a knife on you and you feeling unloved or unwanted, 208 00:11:40,076 --> 00:11:43,396 Speaker 3: and you will in effect go into the same fight 209 00:11:43,476 --> 00:11:47,076 Speaker 3: or flight behavior in order to self protect. Now, remember 210 00:11:47,436 --> 00:11:49,876 Speaker 3: here's what's crazy about this. At this point, you're going 211 00:11:49,956 --> 00:11:53,636 Speaker 3: to fight or fight your way to making your spouse 212 00:11:53,716 --> 00:11:56,996 Speaker 3: love you. That's dumb when you say it out loud. Right, 213 00:11:57,116 --> 00:12:00,436 Speaker 3: of course, you know me being angry at you because 214 00:12:00,436 --> 00:12:02,836 Speaker 3: you don't love me enough doesn't help you to love me. 215 00:12:02,876 --> 00:12:04,796 Speaker 3: It doesn't help you to move forward me. It makes 216 00:12:04,836 --> 00:12:06,876 Speaker 3: you want to move away from me. And so we 217 00:12:06,996 --> 00:12:11,876 Speaker 3: inadvertently start to undo ourselves. And so when I get dysregulated, 218 00:12:12,436 --> 00:12:16,116 Speaker 3: I do something that guess what triggers heard dysregulation, And 219 00:12:16,156 --> 00:12:19,676 Speaker 3: now we're both disregulated, and this is an ugly place. 220 00:12:20,396 --> 00:12:23,956 Speaker 3: This is when I said, oh, let's invite friends to 221 00:12:23,956 --> 00:12:26,156 Speaker 3: go with us on the date, and she's like, oh, 222 00:12:26,236 --> 00:12:29,916 Speaker 3: you don't care about me. Now she's dysregulated. And then 223 00:12:29,956 --> 00:12:33,316 Speaker 3: she comes out fighter flight, Fight or flight, and I'm going, WHOA, 224 00:12:33,356 --> 00:12:35,516 Speaker 3: wait a minute, I didn't do anything wrong. Why are 225 00:12:35,556 --> 00:12:37,636 Speaker 3: you getting And now I'm counter blaming and I'm in 226 00:12:37,676 --> 00:12:41,396 Speaker 3: fight or flight, and now we aren't anything but loving 227 00:12:41,636 --> 00:12:45,676 Speaker 3: and serving and considerate of one another. That is what 228 00:12:45,836 --> 00:12:48,636 Speaker 3: dysregulation at the heart of it is. Everybody on the 229 00:12:48,676 --> 00:12:51,756 Speaker 3: planet does it, probably multiple times a day, even if 230 00:12:51,756 --> 00:12:55,996 Speaker 3: it's momentarily. The smallest of threats can move us into 231 00:12:55,996 --> 00:12:58,276 Speaker 3: the space. And if you've had a fair amount of 232 00:12:58,316 --> 00:13:02,676 Speaker 3: trauma or really emotional pain in your life, you can 233 00:13:02,676 --> 00:13:05,796 Speaker 3: get triggered at the slightest little drop of the hat. 234 00:13:06,996 --> 00:13:09,436 Speaker 1: We're going to go into the four steps in a moment, 235 00:13:09,476 --> 00:13:11,116 Speaker 1: but before we get there, I want to go back 236 00:13:11,116 --> 00:13:13,716 Speaker 1: to what Nan was saying about, like, if you would 237 00:13:13,796 --> 00:13:16,996 Speaker 1: only get better, this would all work out. Because I 238 00:13:17,156 --> 00:13:20,596 Speaker 1: know a lot of people feel In your book, you write, 239 00:13:20,956 --> 00:13:24,316 Speaker 1: we judge ourselves far less harshly than we judge our 240 00:13:24,356 --> 00:13:28,516 Speaker 1: spouse we judge ourselves on our motives and our spouse 241 00:13:28,796 --> 00:13:36,236 Speaker 1: on their actions. And boy, that is so true, Nan, 242 00:13:36,436 --> 00:13:39,356 Speaker 1: How did you kind of make that switch to Oh, 243 00:13:39,596 --> 00:13:42,116 Speaker 1: I guess I should look at myself instead of always 244 00:13:42,116 --> 00:13:42,836 Speaker 1: looking at wrong. 245 00:13:44,356 --> 00:13:52,076 Speaker 2: A long journey and twelve steps into inventoring my pride. Literally, 246 00:13:52,476 --> 00:13:56,476 Speaker 2: the Lord met me in a still twelve step program. 247 00:13:56,556 --> 00:14:00,356 Speaker 2: And when I got to inventory, and I really thought 248 00:14:00,356 --> 00:14:05,156 Speaker 2: I'd be inventoring all of Ron's wrongs, all the harms 249 00:14:05,196 --> 00:14:07,556 Speaker 2: to me. You know, I had a column for all 250 00:14:07,596 --> 00:14:10,236 Speaker 2: those people, and he had like multiple pages, you know, 251 00:14:10,756 --> 00:14:12,596 Speaker 2: and then it was harms by me. And I was like, 252 00:14:13,836 --> 00:14:19,076 Speaker 2: oh wow, wow I am. I am a center and 253 00:14:19,116 --> 00:14:22,316 Speaker 2: I a savior. I have more pride than I ever 254 00:14:22,436 --> 00:14:27,396 Speaker 2: thought I had. And the Lord, in his kindness though 255 00:14:27,996 --> 00:14:30,436 Speaker 2: gently walked me through that. But I really had to 256 00:14:30,436 --> 00:14:36,116 Speaker 2: look at myself, and in that dysregulation, I found out 257 00:14:36,476 --> 00:14:43,116 Speaker 2: I do four coping things that are just prideful and 258 00:14:43,316 --> 00:14:47,276 Speaker 2: self serving. Truly. I mean, I like to control with words, 259 00:14:48,156 --> 00:14:51,276 Speaker 2: lots of words at Ron. I like to blame him 260 00:14:51,436 --> 00:14:54,716 Speaker 2: for everything, and then I go into shame of myself, 261 00:14:55,396 --> 00:14:58,396 Speaker 2: and then I go into numbing and so and nummy 262 00:14:58,436 --> 00:15:02,036 Speaker 2: can take lots of forms. You know, my escapes are 263 00:15:02,276 --> 00:15:04,596 Speaker 2: I just like to leave the room, or leave the house, 264 00:15:04,676 --> 00:15:07,556 Speaker 2: or leave the relate, you know, leave the relationship so 265 00:15:07,636 --> 00:15:10,596 Speaker 2: to speak, just exit because I just don't want to 266 00:15:10,596 --> 00:15:16,116 Speaker 2: have to deal with it. But yes, in my disregulation, 267 00:15:16,436 --> 00:15:19,076 Speaker 2: I can go to all four of those coping and 268 00:15:19,156 --> 00:15:22,396 Speaker 2: it's not productive at all. And so until I dealt 269 00:15:22,396 --> 00:15:25,636 Speaker 2: with my pride and could see, ah, wait a minute, 270 00:15:25,716 --> 00:15:30,276 Speaker 2: those words are controlling. That's not helpful. Oh oh that 271 00:15:30,276 --> 00:15:35,396 Speaker 2: that blame is not helpful. How about some constructive criticism 272 00:15:35,476 --> 00:15:39,156 Speaker 2: or asking for what you want? Yeah, you know, but 273 00:15:39,636 --> 00:15:42,476 Speaker 2: I have a lot of baggage of family of origin issues. 274 00:15:42,516 --> 00:15:46,516 Speaker 2: So I didn't have any of that modeled or had 275 00:15:46,636 --> 00:15:51,636 Speaker 2: none of those skills and really no attachment. Yeah, and 276 00:15:51,676 --> 00:15:56,676 Speaker 2: so the Lord has had to do a lot of gracious, 277 00:15:57,036 --> 00:16:00,516 Speaker 2: merciful work that he's still doing in me because I 278 00:16:00,556 --> 00:16:04,556 Speaker 2: can get triggered in a lot of areas still. 279 00:16:05,516 --> 00:16:08,476 Speaker 3: And I just want to add, there's a humbling process 280 00:16:08,516 --> 00:16:11,436 Speaker 3: to this, and definitely man's family of origin is very 281 00:16:11,476 --> 00:16:14,956 Speaker 3: different than mine. Right, what I had, the same humbling 282 00:16:15,196 --> 00:16:19,796 Speaker 3: have every day, the same humility shift effort that I 283 00:16:19,836 --> 00:16:22,916 Speaker 3: have to make because really, at the heart of your question, Arleene, 284 00:16:22,956 --> 00:16:27,756 Speaker 3: is how did you find the willingness to face those 285 00:16:27,796 --> 00:16:31,476 Speaker 3: parts of yourself that are really not helpful to your relationship? 286 00:16:31,556 --> 00:16:34,556 Speaker 3: And it's humility, because what we all want to do, 287 00:16:34,676 --> 00:16:38,876 Speaker 3: the natural inclination in us is to say, well, the 288 00:16:38,916 --> 00:16:40,796 Speaker 3: reason I can judge you by your actions and me 289 00:16:40,916 --> 00:16:42,756 Speaker 3: by my motives is because I know I'm a good 290 00:16:42,756 --> 00:16:45,836 Speaker 3: person at heart, and you, however, have just disappointed me 291 00:16:45,916 --> 00:16:48,356 Speaker 3: tremendously by what you did or did not do. And 292 00:16:48,396 --> 00:16:50,916 Speaker 3: so I have the right. Do you hear the entitlement? 293 00:16:50,996 --> 00:16:53,156 Speaker 3: Do you hear the pride? I have the right to 294 00:16:53,316 --> 00:16:55,836 Speaker 3: set you straight, to tell you what you did wrong, 295 00:16:55,876 --> 00:16:58,916 Speaker 3: to criticize you, to control the blame, shane, control escape, 296 00:16:58,996 --> 00:17:00,716 Speaker 3: or the four major things that we all do to 297 00:17:00,756 --> 00:17:04,556 Speaker 3: one another. I have the right. That's a posture of pride. 298 00:17:04,836 --> 00:17:09,836 Speaker 3: And until until I will say, Dear God in Heaven, 299 00:17:09,996 --> 00:17:12,436 Speaker 3: I need to let that go. Would you please show 300 00:17:12,475 --> 00:17:16,276 Speaker 3: me humility? Yeah? Then people will not will not make 301 00:17:16,316 --> 00:17:19,116 Speaker 3: the changes. I mean, these four steps that we want 302 00:17:19,156 --> 00:17:22,316 Speaker 3: to talk about are so important. People won't do them 303 00:17:23,356 --> 00:17:25,916 Speaker 3: if you're still standing in a posture of pride, that's 304 00:17:25,955 --> 00:17:26,436 Speaker 3: for sure. 305 00:17:27,156 --> 00:17:30,876 Speaker 2: The flesh always wants what the flesh wants. But walking 306 00:17:30,955 --> 00:17:37,795 Speaker 2: in the spirit and obedience to that it takes. It 307 00:17:37,876 --> 00:17:41,515 Speaker 2: takes a lot of humility, It takes a lot of prayer, 308 00:17:41,676 --> 00:17:46,636 Speaker 2: It takes a lot of Holy Spirit. Show me, guide me, 309 00:17:47,715 --> 00:17:54,235 Speaker 2: help me with love in this situation, at peace and 310 00:17:54,436 --> 00:17:59,995 Speaker 2: self control in this situation, because if left on my 311 00:18:00,316 --> 00:18:04,955 Speaker 2: own in my flesh, I am not anything like one 312 00:18:05,035 --> 00:18:10,076 Speaker 2: Corinthians thirteen, none of those. I'm the polar opposite. I 313 00:18:10,156 --> 00:18:14,476 Speaker 2: really can. I got a good recollection of the record, 314 00:18:14,755 --> 00:18:20,876 Speaker 2: you know what I and so if I combat that 315 00:18:21,396 --> 00:18:24,436 Speaker 2: with holy Spirit, I need you to show me self control. 316 00:18:24,515 --> 00:18:27,116 Speaker 2: I need you to show me patience. But the flesh 317 00:18:27,275 --> 00:18:31,515 Speaker 2: is always and emotions are always leading. First, I'm not 318 00:18:31,556 --> 00:18:34,436 Speaker 2: saying emotions are wrong, because I've been told emotions are 319 00:18:34,436 --> 00:18:37,996 Speaker 2: wrong my whole life. I believe they're God given. But boy, 320 00:18:38,076 --> 00:18:42,196 Speaker 2: can I sin with my emotions? I truly can if 321 00:18:42,356 --> 00:18:46,596 Speaker 2: left all ken with the flesh needs away and not 322 00:18:46,676 --> 00:18:50,075 Speaker 2: taking a step back and humbly saying okay, I'm going 323 00:18:50,156 --> 00:18:51,716 Speaker 2: to need your help here guide me. 324 00:18:52,316 --> 00:18:54,795 Speaker 1: And you all are showing us by your lives, like 325 00:18:54,995 --> 00:18:58,475 Speaker 1: your ministry people you're into your marriage isn't like oh, 326 00:18:58,475 --> 00:19:00,196 Speaker 1: we've been married five years and we need help, Like 327 00:19:00,235 --> 00:19:02,636 Speaker 1: we've been married for a while and we're gonna seek help. 328 00:19:02,715 --> 00:19:04,955 Speaker 1: And that's something I think that all of us need 329 00:19:04,955 --> 00:19:07,795 Speaker 1: to observe and do that no matter and that's the 330 00:19:07,876 --> 00:19:10,635 Speaker 1: pride say it right, like, let's humble ourselves and we 331 00:19:10,676 --> 00:19:14,475 Speaker 1: need help. Because as the book talks about, you went 332 00:19:14,636 --> 00:19:19,196 Speaker 1: to doctor Terry and shared Hargrave give us just an 333 00:19:19,196 --> 00:19:23,595 Speaker 1: overview of what restorative therapy is and then tell us 334 00:19:23,596 --> 00:19:24,596 Speaker 1: about the four steps. 335 00:19:24,796 --> 00:19:27,436 Speaker 3: Yeah. So in two thousand and seven, when our marriage 336 00:19:27,475 --> 00:19:31,556 Speaker 3: blew up, we ended up in doctor Hargrave's office by 337 00:19:31,715 --> 00:19:34,356 Speaker 3: a total act of grace by God, because he had 338 00:19:34,356 --> 00:19:36,636 Speaker 3: a six month waiting list and there's no reason we 339 00:19:36,636 --> 00:19:39,035 Speaker 3: should have gotten in, but he led us and we 340 00:19:39,076 --> 00:19:41,436 Speaker 3: started working with him. What we didn't know is that, 341 00:19:41,755 --> 00:19:44,515 Speaker 3: I mean, I knew he was a highly respected marriage 342 00:19:44,556 --> 00:19:49,075 Speaker 3: and family theoretician, therapist, trainer. I had read number of 343 00:19:49,116 --> 00:19:50,955 Speaker 3: his books in graduate school, and here we were living 344 00:19:50,995 --> 00:19:52,715 Speaker 3: in the same city that they lived in and so 345 00:19:53,076 --> 00:19:56,156 Speaker 3: found our way to him. What I didn't know is 346 00:19:56,196 --> 00:20:01,276 Speaker 3: that he was at that time really formulating a new 347 00:20:02,035 --> 00:20:06,076 Speaker 3: approach to doing counseling and mental health called restoration therapy 348 00:20:06,156 --> 00:20:09,315 Speaker 3: and it's deeply rooted in New Testament theology, but it 349 00:20:09,396 --> 00:20:12,196 Speaker 3: integrates all the modern neuroscience that we now know about 350 00:20:12,235 --> 00:20:14,956 Speaker 3: how the brain works, a sense of mindfulness and being 351 00:20:14,995 --> 00:20:17,156 Speaker 3: aware of yourself, and how you can bring a better 352 00:20:17,235 --> 00:20:21,196 Speaker 3: you to the equation, a deep emotional attachment, all the 353 00:20:21,196 --> 00:20:23,996 Speaker 3: stuff that we all are familiar with. But he's put 354 00:20:24,035 --> 00:20:27,075 Speaker 3: it together in a way that's actually doable for the 355 00:20:27,116 --> 00:20:30,556 Speaker 3: average person. And that treatment model is now fast forward 356 00:20:30,636 --> 00:20:33,355 Speaker 3: till today. It's used all over the world. There's so 357 00:20:33,436 --> 00:20:36,635 Speaker 3: many people practicing it. This book, the Mindful Marriage, we 358 00:20:36,676 --> 00:20:39,436 Speaker 3: cooperated with them to try to bring the principles to 359 00:20:39,755 --> 00:20:42,315 Speaker 3: a wider audience, to just say, look, this stuff is 360 00:20:42,556 --> 00:20:46,875 Speaker 3: really helpful. Yeah, And so we were the beneficiaries of it, 361 00:20:47,035 --> 00:20:49,955 Speaker 3: and so this book is really our testimony of how 362 00:20:49,995 --> 00:20:53,436 Speaker 3: it changed us and how it's moving us forward. Even now. 363 00:20:53,556 --> 00:20:56,515 Speaker 3: We're still working on us and me I'm more working 364 00:20:56,596 --> 00:20:59,795 Speaker 3: on me, and we've seen it work in other people's lives, 365 00:20:59,796 --> 00:21:01,876 Speaker 3: and we're teaching it in our Mindful Marriage conference. So 366 00:21:02,356 --> 00:21:05,596 Speaker 3: that's how we've came to this. We came by it honestly, 367 00:21:06,275 --> 00:21:07,955 Speaker 3: we needed it before. 368 00:21:07,755 --> 00:21:10,075 Speaker 1: Me and I will I will say that's why I 369 00:21:10,156 --> 00:21:12,916 Speaker 1: so wanted to have you guys on because we have 370 00:21:13,076 --> 00:21:16,795 Speaker 1: so much marriage stuff coming towards us. My stuff included 371 00:21:17,196 --> 00:21:20,275 Speaker 1: that is good, but we're we can miss certain things. 372 00:21:20,396 --> 00:21:24,116 Speaker 1: And I really felt that, Wow, when you guys caught this, 373 00:21:25,196 --> 00:21:28,155 Speaker 1: it really was the thing to transform the marriage and 374 00:21:28,356 --> 00:21:30,676 Speaker 1: really turn things around. And I think that can help 375 00:21:30,755 --> 00:21:34,836 Speaker 1: so many people. So talk us through just the four steps. 376 00:21:35,796 --> 00:21:39,315 Speaker 3: Okay, well, so quick perspective. We've talked a little bit 377 00:21:39,316 --> 00:21:42,436 Speaker 3: about how this dysregulation hits and then all of a sudden, 378 00:21:42,436 --> 00:21:45,676 Speaker 3: my worst self comes out. This is Paul and Roman 379 00:21:45,796 --> 00:21:47,476 Speaker 3: seven saying, why do I keep on doing the things 380 00:21:47,515 --> 00:21:49,515 Speaker 3: that don't want to do? Like we all know better 381 00:21:49,556 --> 00:21:53,036 Speaker 3: than we act, especially when we mistreat one another. Well, 382 00:21:53,156 --> 00:21:56,075 Speaker 3: something has triggered that something is coming out of me? 383 00:21:56,275 --> 00:21:58,436 Speaker 3: What is that? The first thing you're going to learn 384 00:21:58,475 --> 00:22:01,475 Speaker 3: to do in this book and this is a work book. 385 00:22:01,275 --> 00:22:03,916 Speaker 2: Ish it is, it's counseling in a book. 386 00:22:04,035 --> 00:22:07,876 Speaker 3: It really it is. Do the exercises. You will not 387 00:22:09,356 --> 00:22:12,475 Speaker 3: regret it. You're going to learn what that reactivity is 388 00:22:12,515 --> 00:22:15,156 Speaker 3: about for you. Where does it come from the pain 389 00:22:15,235 --> 00:22:17,595 Speaker 3: in your life that sort of has now taught your 390 00:22:17,636 --> 00:22:20,516 Speaker 3: brain to act a certain way when you feel threatened 391 00:22:20,596 --> 00:22:23,555 Speaker 3: when you see that rattlesnake in your spouse. You go 392 00:22:23,636 --> 00:22:26,235 Speaker 3: into a blame, shame, control, or escape, the four little 393 00:22:26,235 --> 00:22:29,916 Speaker 3: mechanisms we use to do fight or flight stuff. And 394 00:22:29,955 --> 00:22:32,835 Speaker 3: you'll understand why that is and what it looks like 395 00:22:32,916 --> 00:22:34,156 Speaker 3: for you right in. 396 00:22:34,196 --> 00:22:36,076 Speaker 1: Which you are, yes, right. 397 00:22:36,396 --> 00:22:39,356 Speaker 2: You will map out your pain cycle as an individual. 398 00:22:39,515 --> 00:22:42,196 Speaker 2: So I mapped out mine, and then Ron mapped out his, 399 00:22:42,356 --> 00:22:45,755 Speaker 2: and then you put your pain cycle or your ugly 400 00:22:45,876 --> 00:22:51,676 Speaker 2: dance on paper together and you can see it. You 401 00:22:51,715 --> 00:22:55,955 Speaker 2: can see, oh, this is what I keep doing and 402 00:22:55,995 --> 00:22:58,235 Speaker 2: I don't want to do it. You actually see it. 403 00:22:58,316 --> 00:23:01,596 Speaker 3: And universally people will go, that's us at our worst. 404 00:23:01,636 --> 00:23:03,676 Speaker 3: My goodness, ninety percent of the time we're not that, 405 00:23:04,076 --> 00:23:06,636 Speaker 3: but boy, when that comes out, it is ugly and 406 00:23:06,676 --> 00:23:07,916 Speaker 3: that's our worst part of us. 407 00:23:07,955 --> 00:23:11,035 Speaker 2: And I would say to your listeners and people that 408 00:23:11,116 --> 00:23:14,275 Speaker 2: read the book, don't don't be afraid of that pain. 409 00:23:16,715 --> 00:23:20,676 Speaker 2: Be brave and allow God to heal it. Especially those 410 00:23:20,676 --> 00:23:23,355 Speaker 2: of you that have a lot of trauma and a 411 00:23:23,396 --> 00:23:26,036 Speaker 2: lot of past trauma and a lot of family trauma. 412 00:23:26,916 --> 00:23:30,275 Speaker 2: Those cycles can be broken, but you've got to be 413 00:23:30,356 --> 00:23:33,156 Speaker 2: patient with yourself and also be brave because you know, 414 00:23:33,196 --> 00:23:35,916 Speaker 2: some people at the conferences will come up and say, well, 415 00:23:35,955 --> 00:23:37,316 Speaker 2: I didn't know I was gonna have to go think 416 00:23:37,356 --> 00:23:41,235 Speaker 2: about that or go deal with that. Well, until you do, 417 00:23:41,955 --> 00:23:47,235 Speaker 2: then there's not healing here or here, I believe. 418 00:23:46,995 --> 00:23:50,436 Speaker 3: To your point, Arlene, what makes this material different than 419 00:23:50,475 --> 00:23:53,156 Speaker 3: a lot of other marriage material that's out there. You 420 00:23:53,156 --> 00:23:55,876 Speaker 3: will have the insights into your bad if I can 421 00:23:55,916 --> 00:23:59,075 Speaker 3: call it that. Yeah, But even more importantly, you're going 422 00:23:59,156 --> 00:24:02,396 Speaker 3: to get a plan for how to move toward the good. Yes, 423 00:24:02,475 --> 00:24:04,955 Speaker 3: the New Testament calls this your old self versus your new. 424 00:24:04,995 --> 00:24:07,275 Speaker 3: So your old self is bitter and angry and harsh 425 00:24:07,316 --> 00:24:10,075 Speaker 3: and judgmental and critical, and your new self in Christ 426 00:24:10,196 --> 00:24:13,116 Speaker 3: needs to be lovejoy, peace, of patience, kindness, goodness, the 427 00:24:13,515 --> 00:24:16,116 Speaker 3: qualities and attributes like that. But how do I put 428 00:24:16,156 --> 00:24:18,876 Speaker 3: that into action in real time in my worst mine? 429 00:24:19,275 --> 00:24:21,795 Speaker 3: That is the trick. Because we can all do it 430 00:24:21,836 --> 00:24:24,076 Speaker 3: when we're calm and happy and we love each other. 431 00:24:24,556 --> 00:24:27,715 Speaker 3: Those are good days and kindness is easy. How do 432 00:24:27,755 --> 00:24:30,755 Speaker 3: I put on kindness when I am royally ticked, or 433 00:24:30,836 --> 00:24:33,115 Speaker 3: I feel threatened by you, or I don't think you 434 00:24:33,235 --> 00:24:37,636 Speaker 3: love me after all? That is the self discipline that 435 00:24:37,755 --> 00:24:40,396 Speaker 3: is so challenging. So you're going to map your old, 436 00:24:40,475 --> 00:24:44,555 Speaker 3: you're also going to map the new, rooted in God's truth, 437 00:24:44,676 --> 00:24:47,636 Speaker 3: rooted in an understanding of yourself that you'll develop over 438 00:24:47,715 --> 00:24:52,115 Speaker 3: time that says, Okay, since I'm new in Christ, I 439 00:24:52,196 --> 00:24:55,235 Speaker 3: need to act better than I act. And what would 440 00:24:55,235 --> 00:24:57,756 Speaker 3: it look like for me to put on kindness, for example, 441 00:24:57,836 --> 00:25:00,636 Speaker 3: in the heat of the moment, in those moments when 442 00:25:00,636 --> 00:25:04,275 Speaker 3: I really want to just throw daggers at you. I 443 00:25:04,356 --> 00:25:08,035 Speaker 3: map that. And then the four steps is the tool 444 00:25:08,116 --> 00:25:12,196 Speaker 3: you use in real time to actually implement that, not 445 00:25:12,475 --> 00:25:15,636 Speaker 3: just this I've got it on paper and wohil, all 446 00:25:15,636 --> 00:25:17,756 Speaker 3: of a sudden, I'm transformed. It doesn't work that way. 447 00:25:18,196 --> 00:25:20,436 Speaker 3: We got to over come all those narrow pathways in 448 00:25:20,475 --> 00:25:23,996 Speaker 3: your brain. And so the four steps get you there. 449 00:25:24,396 --> 00:25:26,436 Speaker 1: And let's go back. Let's go back to the date 450 00:25:26,556 --> 00:25:29,316 Speaker 1: night of Okay, so let's say that now you've asked 451 00:25:29,356 --> 00:25:32,196 Speaker 1: for the date, You've said, hey, can we invite people? 452 00:25:32,715 --> 00:25:35,196 Speaker 1: And so using the four steps down, what would then 453 00:25:35,235 --> 00:25:37,515 Speaker 1: your brain say when he says, oh, we're going to 454 00:25:37,596 --> 00:25:39,196 Speaker 1: invite people over too. 455 00:25:39,076 --> 00:25:44,475 Speaker 2: Okay, I would say, oh, what am I feeling? I'm 456 00:25:44,475 --> 00:25:50,156 Speaker 2: feeling some pain here. I'm feeling that he doesn't want 457 00:25:50,196 --> 00:25:53,396 Speaker 2: to spend exclusive time with me. I'm feeling a little 458 00:25:53,436 --> 00:25:56,995 Speaker 2: short sighted here. I'm sad, maybe a little angry that 459 00:25:57,035 --> 00:26:01,355 Speaker 2: it's he's he's always with people. You know, i'd be 460 00:26:01,475 --> 00:26:03,755 Speaker 2: thinking these things in my head, but I would be 461 00:26:04,396 --> 00:26:09,635 Speaker 2: I'm feeling a little discarded or abandoned here in this situation. 462 00:26:09,836 --> 00:26:11,955 Speaker 2: I thought it was a date and you were moving 463 00:26:11,995 --> 00:26:16,235 Speaker 2: towards me, but now you want to add people. I'm disappointed. 464 00:26:16,596 --> 00:26:19,075 Speaker 3: Step one, by the way, say what you're. 465 00:26:18,636 --> 00:26:20,795 Speaker 2: Pay, what you're feeling. What I normally would do in 466 00:26:20,836 --> 00:26:23,596 Speaker 2: that is I get really angry with him, and I'd 467 00:26:23,636 --> 00:26:26,115 Speaker 2: try to control this. You always do this, you always 468 00:26:26,196 --> 00:26:29,276 Speaker 2: want to be in pain. I would probably do that, 469 00:26:30,116 --> 00:26:33,316 Speaker 2: and I'd probably withdraw and I you know, and i'd 470 00:26:33,316 --> 00:26:37,075 Speaker 2: blame him and then but what's the truth. 471 00:26:38,116 --> 00:26:38,955 Speaker 3: This is step three? 472 00:26:39,116 --> 00:26:43,436 Speaker 2: This is step three. Well, I'd take a breath, for 473 00:26:43,475 --> 00:26:45,795 Speaker 2: first of all, I like to breathe. I might go 474 00:26:45,836 --> 00:26:48,996 Speaker 2: outside to get grounded. Seriously, I have to do that. 475 00:26:49,955 --> 00:26:53,956 Speaker 2: Get some sky, get some breath. I'm gonna pray. I'm 476 00:26:53,955 --> 00:27:00,116 Speaker 2: ann ass, Holy Spirit, call me, you see me, show 477 00:27:00,156 --> 00:27:02,795 Speaker 2: me Ron. I mean, I really am praying and I'm 478 00:27:02,836 --> 00:27:05,156 Speaker 2: praying out loud sometimes and I'm praying in my mind, 479 00:27:05,156 --> 00:27:07,076 Speaker 2: in my heart, and I may even put a hand 480 00:27:07,156 --> 00:27:08,475 Speaker 2: up to him and say I need. 481 00:27:08,356 --> 00:27:09,235 Speaker 3: A minute, and. 482 00:27:11,235 --> 00:27:16,156 Speaker 2: Then you go, what's the truth? He loves me, just 483 00:27:16,196 --> 00:27:19,475 Speaker 2: ask me out on a date. He just wanted to 484 00:27:19,475 --> 00:27:22,636 Speaker 2: invite friends, but that's not what I want. So the 485 00:27:22,715 --> 00:27:24,916 Speaker 2: truth is is I can say, yes, I want to 486 00:27:24,916 --> 00:27:27,596 Speaker 2: go out on that date, and I really just want 487 00:27:27,596 --> 00:27:30,316 Speaker 2: to be with you because I just have been missing 488 00:27:30,356 --> 00:27:33,595 Speaker 2: you all week long. Can it just be us and 489 00:27:33,676 --> 00:27:36,555 Speaker 2: maybe next week we can go with friends, But I 490 00:27:36,636 --> 00:27:40,156 Speaker 2: really thank you for inviting me on this date. I 491 00:27:40,196 --> 00:27:44,235 Speaker 2: feel like you see me and you love me. And 492 00:27:44,316 --> 00:27:48,116 Speaker 2: can I pick the restaurant? What a difference? The truth 493 00:27:48,235 --> 00:27:52,115 Speaker 2: is is he's asked me out, he has asked friends. 494 00:27:52,156 --> 00:27:56,636 Speaker 2: But truth is is that new Nan can say thank you, 495 00:27:57,235 --> 00:28:00,156 Speaker 2: she can use kind words, she can be self controlled, 496 00:28:00,196 --> 00:28:02,156 Speaker 2: she can ask for what she wants and say, you know, 497 00:28:02,196 --> 00:28:03,876 Speaker 2: I don't want to go with other people. I really 498 00:28:03,876 --> 00:28:06,235 Speaker 2: want you. And that's what the truth is. 499 00:28:06,356 --> 00:28:09,156 Speaker 1: And I guess this is so different. So we heard 500 00:28:09,156 --> 00:28:12,355 Speaker 1: that step one, step three, Ron fill in the blanks 501 00:28:12,396 --> 00:28:14,475 Speaker 1: either with how you would respond or give us those 502 00:28:14,475 --> 00:28:16,396 Speaker 1: four steps that we could start practicing. 503 00:28:16,475 --> 00:28:18,315 Speaker 3: Okay, so let me just lay them out. Step one is, 504 00:28:18,396 --> 00:28:21,476 Speaker 3: you say out loud, here's my pain, and I'm feeling 505 00:28:21,715 --> 00:28:25,356 Speaker 3: it's unloved or unsafe. For Nan, it was a word abandoned. 506 00:28:25,356 --> 00:28:28,515 Speaker 3: I'm feeling abandoned, like whoa, he doesn't really want to 507 00:28:28,556 --> 00:28:32,636 Speaker 3: be with me? Unwanted? Right? Step two, here's what I 508 00:28:32,676 --> 00:28:35,836 Speaker 3: normally do with this, and she said, yes, I would 509 00:28:35,916 --> 00:28:38,355 Speaker 3: have been critical or angry, would have gotten came in. 510 00:28:38,716 --> 00:28:41,556 Speaker 3: She Step three, now, by the way, I'm going to 511 00:28:41,596 --> 00:28:43,556 Speaker 3: come back to you, got to say this stuff out loud. 512 00:28:43,636 --> 00:28:45,636 Speaker 3: She was saying it to you, but in real time 513 00:28:45,716 --> 00:28:47,756 Speaker 3: she would have been saying those out loud to me, 514 00:28:48,756 --> 00:28:50,476 Speaker 3: and there's a reason for that. I'll come back to it. 515 00:28:50,556 --> 00:28:54,356 Speaker 3: Number three is, but what's the truth? You go capital 516 00:28:54,396 --> 00:28:56,996 Speaker 3: t truth first? That's what does God tell me is 517 00:28:57,036 --> 00:28:59,396 Speaker 3: true about me? Even though if Ron's a jerk right now, 518 00:28:59,436 --> 00:29:01,796 Speaker 3: what does God say is true about me? And I'm 519 00:29:01,796 --> 00:29:04,315 Speaker 3: going to hold on to that, and I'm going to 520 00:29:04,356 --> 00:29:07,556 Speaker 3: try to think of other truths that are true about 521 00:29:07,636 --> 00:29:11,956 Speaker 3: us and about specifically that sense of abandonment. Am I 522 00:29:12,036 --> 00:29:15,036 Speaker 3: really unloved? Am I really all alone? Well? No, I'm 523 00:29:15,076 --> 00:29:17,836 Speaker 3: not God's here. Number one. Number two, that's the prayer 524 00:29:17,876 --> 00:29:20,916 Speaker 3: part she was talking about. Number two, Ron does want 525 00:29:20,916 --> 00:29:23,516 Speaker 3: to be with me. Yes, he just threw in this 526 00:29:23,596 --> 00:29:27,036 Speaker 3: part about other people, but his desire is still evident. 527 00:29:27,356 --> 00:29:31,196 Speaker 3: So she's grabbing that truth, and then she's saying, okay, 528 00:29:31,236 --> 00:29:34,556 Speaker 3: based on that. Step four, here's what I'm going to 529 00:29:34,636 --> 00:29:37,156 Speaker 3: do different. Step two was I usually come at you 530 00:29:37,196 --> 00:29:40,756 Speaker 3: with anger and criticism and yelling. Step four is I'm 531 00:29:40,796 --> 00:29:43,556 Speaker 3: going to be calm. I'm going to take agency and 532 00:29:43,596 --> 00:29:45,356 Speaker 3: go no, I'm going to ask for what I want. 533 00:29:46,236 --> 00:29:48,796 Speaker 3: Let's go out just the two of us, maybe friends 534 00:29:48,796 --> 00:29:51,116 Speaker 3: another day, and I can do that in a way 535 00:29:51,156 --> 00:29:54,756 Speaker 3: that's gentle. I don't have to lose myself and become 536 00:29:54,796 --> 00:29:59,716 Speaker 3: the angry old nan. Okay. Now, it's so good. It's 537 00:29:59,796 --> 00:30:05,556 Speaker 3: amazing because it's her grabbing on to her, taking charge 538 00:30:05,676 --> 00:30:08,835 Speaker 3: of those emotions and the pain that's attached to it, 539 00:30:09,196 --> 00:30:12,396 Speaker 3: and telling herself what to do with it. This is 540 00:30:12,396 --> 00:30:15,956 Speaker 3: what's transformative about this. Saying it out loud does two 541 00:30:15,996 --> 00:30:18,156 Speaker 3: things that are really critical. We outline these in the 542 00:30:18,156 --> 00:30:21,756 Speaker 3: book The Mindful Me. Number One, it's telling her brain, WHOA, 543 00:30:21,916 --> 00:30:26,756 Speaker 3: you've gone offline prefrontal cortex, come back. We need you right, 544 00:30:27,476 --> 00:30:30,916 Speaker 3: and we're going to get rooted in some biblical eternal truth, 545 00:30:31,436 --> 00:30:34,635 Speaker 3: not just this moment, in the process, and I'm going 546 00:30:34,716 --> 00:30:37,836 Speaker 3: to turn off that limbic system that just wants to 547 00:30:38,076 --> 00:30:41,196 Speaker 3: do fight or flight stuff. That's huge. The saying it 548 00:30:41,276 --> 00:30:44,556 Speaker 3: out loud is activating the part of your brain that 549 00:30:44,916 --> 00:30:48,556 Speaker 3: ken consider and ponder and say, Lord, what would you 550 00:30:48,596 --> 00:30:50,676 Speaker 3: have me to do? Until you turn that part of 551 00:30:50,676 --> 00:30:54,276 Speaker 3: your brain on, you are only only in your flesh. 552 00:30:54,396 --> 00:30:56,196 Speaker 3: I mean that is massive right there. 553 00:30:56,316 --> 00:30:56,556 Speaker 2: Sure. 554 00:30:56,916 --> 00:30:59,116 Speaker 3: The second thing it does when she says it out loud, 555 00:30:59,516 --> 00:31:04,315 Speaker 3: is it signaling to me? Look, Ron, you've been dealing 556 00:31:04,316 --> 00:31:06,636 Speaker 3: with specs in her eye for a long time, Matthew seven, 557 00:31:06,956 --> 00:31:09,396 Speaker 3: and she's been dealing with your specs. But nan just 558 00:31:09,436 --> 00:31:12,236 Speaker 3: start dealing with her log. That's what it signals to me. 559 00:31:12,436 --> 00:31:15,835 Speaker 3: Oh wow, she's doing something different here. I know what 560 00:31:15,876 --> 00:31:17,956 Speaker 3: she's doing. She's trying to get a control of herself. 561 00:31:18,196 --> 00:31:20,956 Speaker 3: You know what, You don't have to be in control 562 00:31:20,996 --> 00:31:22,676 Speaker 3: of her, right Why don't you do the same thing. 563 00:31:22,716 --> 00:31:24,916 Speaker 3: Why don't you get in touch with your log and 564 00:31:25,116 --> 00:31:28,075 Speaker 3: slow yourself down for a minute and start getting humble 565 00:31:28,796 --> 00:31:31,996 Speaker 3: about what you were bringing to the equation and bring 566 00:31:32,036 --> 00:31:35,756 Speaker 3: a better self to the next moment. And so her 567 00:31:35,876 --> 00:31:39,355 Speaker 3: doing this out loud activates new stuff in her and 568 00:31:39,476 --> 00:31:44,156 Speaker 3: between us. It's a soft invitation for me to start 569 00:31:44,196 --> 00:31:48,036 Speaker 3: doing the exact same thing. You get one person doing this, 570 00:31:48,116 --> 00:31:50,596 Speaker 3: it changes your dance. You get two people doing this, 571 00:31:50,756 --> 00:31:52,556 Speaker 3: it is utterly transformative. 572 00:31:53,316 --> 00:31:57,956 Speaker 1: My goodness, this is amazing. So let's say we're just beginning. 573 00:31:59,076 --> 00:32:02,076 Speaker 1: Might we say it out loud alone first, because we're 574 00:32:02,156 --> 00:32:04,036 Speaker 1: kind of like figure out and then bring it to 575 00:32:04,076 --> 00:32:04,636 Speaker 1: our spouse. 576 00:32:05,396 --> 00:32:08,676 Speaker 3: The answer is yes, but you will not get internal 577 00:32:08,676 --> 00:32:11,115 Speaker 3: transformation until you start saying it out loud. You just 578 00:32:11,196 --> 00:32:13,315 Speaker 3: need to know it's not the same mechanism. 579 00:32:13,636 --> 00:32:15,516 Speaker 1: It's sort of like that was, And what I meant 580 00:32:15,556 --> 00:32:17,676 Speaker 1: was saying out loud but to yourself like like excuse me, 581 00:32:17,716 --> 00:32:19,756 Speaker 1: and like going to the other room and practicing because 582 00:32:19,796 --> 00:32:22,116 Speaker 1: you're not sure how it's gonna come out the first time. 583 00:32:23,196 --> 00:32:26,636 Speaker 2: Yes, I totally agree. And I used to do that. 584 00:32:26,716 --> 00:32:30,356 Speaker 2: I used to go outside on my walks and do 585 00:32:30,396 --> 00:32:33,556 Speaker 2: that and then come back and write it out too. 586 00:32:33,676 --> 00:32:36,316 Speaker 2: And then sometimes I even wrote it out and read 587 00:32:36,356 --> 00:32:39,756 Speaker 2: it to him first, because I I just I wasn't 588 00:32:40,196 --> 00:32:45,835 Speaker 2: used to that side of the truth. I walked in 589 00:32:45,996 --> 00:32:51,835 Speaker 2: pain for so long, and that rut was so so deep, 590 00:32:52,636 --> 00:32:56,836 Speaker 2: and so you know, it takes a lot of It's 591 00:32:56,876 --> 00:33:00,516 Speaker 2: like working out or learning a new skill. You've got 592 00:33:00,676 --> 00:33:03,395 Speaker 2: to continue to practice it and keep doing it and 593 00:33:03,476 --> 00:33:06,875 Speaker 2: keep doing it in order for it to become second nature. 594 00:33:07,396 --> 00:33:09,036 Speaker 2: And now it is. And I will tell you this 595 00:33:09,756 --> 00:33:16,676 Speaker 2: past week weekend, I was in a situation with wrong. 596 00:33:16,716 --> 00:33:19,516 Speaker 2: We were there together, but I was very triggered by 597 00:33:19,556 --> 00:33:25,716 Speaker 2: past pain. It was everywhere around me, and it was 598 00:33:25,836 --> 00:33:31,036 Speaker 2: really it really threw me in a rut of just hurt, 599 00:33:33,036 --> 00:33:36,956 Speaker 2: and it was hard for me to pop out. Yeah, 600 00:33:37,956 --> 00:33:41,796 Speaker 2: And there were parts of it and times when I 601 00:33:41,876 --> 00:33:46,636 Speaker 2: was not doing this doing my work, Yeah, and it 602 00:33:46,676 --> 00:33:50,956 Speaker 2: got worse and I got stuck and I kind of 603 00:33:50,996 --> 00:33:57,075 Speaker 2: ruminated in the pain. And then as I had some 604 00:33:57,236 --> 00:34:00,876 Speaker 2: time to reflect and think and as I did my 605 00:34:00,956 --> 00:34:04,196 Speaker 2: four steps, it's like I felt like I lifted out 606 00:34:04,196 --> 00:34:07,436 Speaker 2: of that rut. But I will say for your listeners 607 00:34:07,476 --> 00:34:11,996 Speaker 2: that I mean, I have a lot of baggage. I 608 00:34:12,036 --> 00:34:16,436 Speaker 2: have a lot of hard past pain and trauma. Sometimes 609 00:34:16,476 --> 00:34:20,556 Speaker 2: it's not easy for those of us that none of 610 00:34:20,596 --> 00:34:23,276 Speaker 2: that was modeled, none of that was given and you're 611 00:34:23,356 --> 00:34:28,636 Speaker 2: kind of starting empty. Yeah, and you're really in a 612 00:34:28,676 --> 00:34:33,276 Speaker 2: healing process. Be kind to yourself. But I do know 613 00:34:33,356 --> 00:34:36,796 Speaker 2: the difference between that pain and living in that pain 614 00:34:37,156 --> 00:34:40,556 Speaker 2: and being controlled by that pain and living in the piece. 615 00:34:41,196 --> 00:34:43,516 Speaker 2: And I would rather live in the piece, even though 616 00:34:43,516 --> 00:34:47,996 Speaker 2: it's hard fought for me. Now, yes, it's worth it 617 00:34:49,676 --> 00:34:50,196 Speaker 2: that effort. 618 00:34:50,236 --> 00:34:51,156 Speaker 1: Like it takes effort. 619 00:34:51,396 --> 00:34:52,756 Speaker 2: It takes a lot of effort. 620 00:34:52,876 --> 00:34:56,596 Speaker 1: When you both are in it, it's transformational, and even 621 00:34:56,636 --> 00:34:59,076 Speaker 1: if one of you is in it, it's super helpful. 622 00:34:59,516 --> 00:35:02,796 Speaker 3: It is so awkward in the beginning to implement these 623 00:35:02,836 --> 00:35:05,116 Speaker 3: four steps because you don't have the words. You don't 624 00:35:05,116 --> 00:35:07,396 Speaker 3: have that you're like, Yeah, what's this dumb thing I'm 625 00:35:07,396 --> 00:35:10,036 Speaker 3: supposed to be like? That's the way it feels, especially 626 00:35:10,076 --> 00:35:13,556 Speaker 3: in the moment when you're really mad or just totally upset, 627 00:35:13,676 --> 00:35:16,596 Speaker 3: and you're like, this makes no sense to me whatsoever. 628 00:35:17,116 --> 00:35:19,396 Speaker 3: And that's the point, you know, at the end the day, 629 00:35:19,476 --> 00:35:22,236 Speaker 3: there's a humbling Wait a minute, my job is to 630 00:35:22,236 --> 00:35:25,315 Speaker 3: manage me, and I'm not managing me right now. Number two, 631 00:35:25,356 --> 00:35:31,076 Speaker 3: there's a soberness to the I gotta put on self control. 632 00:35:31,116 --> 00:35:33,156 Speaker 3: See here's what the Arlene, here's what most of us do. 633 00:35:33,196 --> 00:35:35,556 Speaker 3: We spend our entire marriage waiting for the other person 634 00:35:35,956 --> 00:35:38,036 Speaker 3: to finally show up the way we need them to 635 00:35:38,476 --> 00:35:42,315 Speaker 3: so I won't have to be hurt anymore. Guess what, Well, 636 00:35:42,516 --> 00:35:46,076 Speaker 3: that's never going to happen. I mean, NaN's a fabulous person. 637 00:35:46,116 --> 00:35:48,476 Speaker 3: She's never gonna do it exactly the way I think 638 00:35:48,516 --> 00:35:51,636 Speaker 3: it ought to be done, so RON doesn't ever get irritated. 639 00:35:51,996 --> 00:35:54,596 Speaker 3: It just won't happen. My job is to manage my 640 00:35:54,676 --> 00:35:58,916 Speaker 3: irritation when it shows up. That's my job. And unless 641 00:35:58,956 --> 00:36:01,036 Speaker 3: I'm willing to take ownership of that, I will be 642 00:36:01,076 --> 00:36:04,036 Speaker 3: a victim of her the rest of my life. And 643 00:36:04,116 --> 00:36:06,436 Speaker 3: guess what that does? That makes me resent her? How 644 00:36:06,476 --> 00:36:09,876 Speaker 3: can I be kind? You see how the sun ravels? 645 00:36:10,076 --> 00:36:10,196 Speaker 2: Ever? 646 00:36:10,316 --> 00:36:14,036 Speaker 3: Totally, it totally unravels. But it's based on this assumption 647 00:36:14,196 --> 00:36:17,276 Speaker 3: that you need to be and do and love and 648 00:36:17,316 --> 00:36:21,476 Speaker 3: give exactly this thing that I feel like I need. Yeah, 649 00:36:21,596 --> 00:36:23,716 Speaker 3: or I'm just going to be mad and I am 650 00:36:23,876 --> 00:36:27,756 Speaker 3: entitled to being mad. No, you're not. You're as a 651 00:36:27,756 --> 00:36:30,796 Speaker 3: follower of Jesus, you're entitled to do what he did 652 00:36:30,836 --> 00:36:34,076 Speaker 3: when people mistreated him. He maintained his self control the 653 00:36:34,316 --> 00:36:36,076 Speaker 3: entire time. 654 00:36:37,036 --> 00:36:40,276 Speaker 1: And it's so countercultural because culture will tell you, yeah, 655 00:36:40,476 --> 00:36:42,916 Speaker 1: they are totally wronging you, and you're right, and you 656 00:36:42,916 --> 00:36:45,836 Speaker 1: don't have to work on a thing. But the Bible 657 00:36:45,876 --> 00:36:48,876 Speaker 1: tells us, man, we have to make every effort. We 658 00:36:48,956 --> 00:36:51,356 Speaker 1: have to put on humility, we have to there are 659 00:36:51,396 --> 00:36:53,396 Speaker 1: things that you have to do. Okay, we could talk 660 00:36:53,436 --> 00:36:56,876 Speaker 1: for so long. Yes, we're out of time. However, before 661 00:36:56,916 --> 00:36:59,476 Speaker 1: we leave, and I know this is dreadful because we 662 00:36:59,516 --> 00:37:02,076 Speaker 1: could talk another half hour about this, but before we leave, 663 00:37:02,836 --> 00:37:06,196 Speaker 1: someone's listening and they're saying, that's nice, but you don't 664 00:37:06,236 --> 00:37:09,076 Speaker 1: know the pain that we have experienced in our marriage, 665 00:37:09,276 --> 00:37:12,796 Speaker 1: and we cannot get to this place. But I would 666 00:37:12,876 --> 00:37:16,756 Speaker 1: submit that you do know, because just if you would 667 00:37:16,756 --> 00:37:21,796 Speaker 1: share you know about your son, because that is something 668 00:37:21,836 --> 00:37:25,436 Speaker 1: none of us would experience. Your middle son, Connor, who 669 00:37:25,516 --> 00:37:29,436 Speaker 1: was only twelve years old, got a staff infection, which 670 00:37:29,676 --> 00:37:31,396 Speaker 1: any of us would say like, okay, let's take some 671 00:37:31,516 --> 00:37:35,196 Speaker 1: antiotics and go on with our life. And he died. 672 00:37:35,836 --> 00:37:39,076 Speaker 3: He died. He had his first symptom on a Saturday, 673 00:37:39,396 --> 00:37:41,516 Speaker 3: and ten days later he was gone. 674 00:37:41,796 --> 00:37:45,876 Speaker 2: February seventeenth of two thousand and nine. So this coming 675 00:37:45,956 --> 00:37:49,076 Speaker 2: February seventeenth will be seventeen. 676 00:37:48,956 --> 00:37:51,996 Speaker 3: Years with that, and it was God's mercy that we 677 00:37:52,076 --> 00:37:54,756 Speaker 3: ended up in doctor Hargrey's office two years before this 678 00:37:54,836 --> 00:37:57,956 Speaker 3: happened to Connor. We look back and we go I 679 00:37:57,956 --> 00:38:00,236 Speaker 3: don't know if we would have survived it, no, because 680 00:38:00,276 --> 00:38:01,956 Speaker 3: we were in a bad place and we would have 681 00:38:01,996 --> 00:38:07,236 Speaker 3: had nothing to go to endure. But the provision was 682 00:38:07,236 --> 00:38:10,956 Speaker 3: there and mercy was there, and we were able to survive. 683 00:38:11,036 --> 00:38:14,476 Speaker 3: And it is the great Valley of the Shadow of 684 00:38:14,516 --> 00:38:17,875 Speaker 3: Death and it is forever life changing. And I would 685 00:38:17,876 --> 00:38:22,596 Speaker 3: just say to somebody listening or watching that so much 686 00:38:22,596 --> 00:38:24,756 Speaker 3: of what goes on in your marriage, if you're like us, 687 00:38:24,756 --> 00:38:28,316 Speaker 3: and I think most people are, yeah, preceded your marriage. 688 00:38:28,596 --> 00:38:31,236 Speaker 3: It's the stuff I brought in, It's the ruts she 689 00:38:31,316 --> 00:38:34,636 Speaker 3: brought in. That's what collides most of the time. But 690 00:38:34,756 --> 00:38:38,156 Speaker 3: sometimes life does hit you like a massive loss like 691 00:38:38,196 --> 00:38:43,036 Speaker 3: we've experienced, and you didn't you couldn't control that, but 692 00:38:43,076 --> 00:38:46,476 Speaker 3: you still got to deal with it. Life's hard. 693 00:38:47,236 --> 00:38:50,236 Speaker 2: This world is a fallen place, Yeah. 694 00:38:49,836 --> 00:38:53,876 Speaker 3: And if we can fall back on God's truth for us, yeah, 695 00:38:54,276 --> 00:38:56,836 Speaker 3: we will not survive any of it, let alone have 696 00:38:56,956 --> 00:38:58,196 Speaker 3: thriving relationships. 697 00:38:58,396 --> 00:39:01,236 Speaker 2: And you know, even to this day, in January, we'll 698 00:39:01,276 --> 00:39:06,036 Speaker 2: be celebrating forty years. It's still not over for us. 699 00:39:06,076 --> 00:39:11,236 Speaker 2: There's still hard stuff coming at us. We do understand. 700 00:39:11,396 --> 00:39:13,676 Speaker 2: I do get it. To the listeners, that's saying, but 701 00:39:13,796 --> 00:39:18,276 Speaker 2: you don't understand. I am dealing with betrayal here, I'm 702 00:39:18,316 --> 00:39:22,156 Speaker 2: dealing with illness or I'm dealing with But in our walk, 703 00:39:22,276 --> 00:39:26,636 Speaker 2: we we do get it. We've had baggage from beginning 704 00:39:26,676 --> 00:39:29,076 Speaker 2: and hard baggage handed to us while we're in the 705 00:39:29,116 --> 00:39:31,835 Speaker 2: midst of it. And we still have issues right now 706 00:39:31,876 --> 00:39:37,116 Speaker 2: with things. And but God is faithful and he is 707 00:39:38,636 --> 00:39:41,516 Speaker 2: he is patient with us. I cannot tell you how 708 00:39:41,596 --> 00:39:45,516 Speaker 2: patient he was in the journeying and the I feel 709 00:39:45,556 --> 00:39:48,156 Speaker 2: like I was a prodigal after Connor died for about 710 00:39:48,156 --> 00:39:52,716 Speaker 2: a decade, with my grief and my really my anger 711 00:39:52,796 --> 00:39:56,116 Speaker 2: and my resentment towards God for my son passing away 712 00:39:56,996 --> 00:40:02,396 Speaker 2: and poor coping for a decade. And he he never 713 00:40:02,836 --> 00:40:09,676 Speaker 2: left me, never left us, and yet we cling to him. 714 00:40:09,756 --> 00:40:15,676 Speaker 2: Now our usness is stronger because we both are working 715 00:40:15,796 --> 00:40:19,516 Speaker 2: our side of the street and that is a joy. 716 00:40:19,956 --> 00:40:23,676 Speaker 3: And last word, I'll just say the four steps apply 717 00:40:24,076 --> 00:40:27,196 Speaker 3: no matter what your story is, right, it is the 718 00:40:27,316 --> 00:40:32,756 Speaker 3: path out. Yeah, and we would just recommend it to anybody. 719 00:40:32,836 --> 00:40:34,636 Speaker 3: We know what it's done for us, We've seen what 720 00:40:34,716 --> 00:40:35,556 Speaker 3: it's done for others. 721 00:40:35,716 --> 00:40:39,236 Speaker 2: Just just try it, yeah, or get a mentor counselor 722 00:40:39,276 --> 00:40:42,796 Speaker 2: to help you try it, you know, don't go it alone. Yeah, 723 00:40:42,916 --> 00:40:43,516 Speaker 2: that would be the. 724 00:40:43,516 --> 00:40:47,436 Speaker 1: Book is the book is the Mindful Marriage And my goodness, 725 00:40:47,556 --> 00:40:51,556 Speaker 1: if you read this book alone or together, you do 726 00:40:51,636 --> 00:40:54,196 Speaker 1: the exercises, you find out what your pain cycle is, 727 00:40:54,276 --> 00:40:57,636 Speaker 1: you start retraining your brain with these four steps. What 728 00:40:57,716 --> 00:41:00,796 Speaker 1: a life changing gift this will be? How can people 729 00:41:00,876 --> 00:41:02,916 Speaker 1: find out more about you? And before I go there, 730 00:41:02,956 --> 00:41:05,796 Speaker 1: thank you, thank you for sharing your hearts, thank you 731 00:41:05,876 --> 00:41:09,236 Speaker 1: for sharing your the story of Connor. Thank you for 732 00:41:09,596 --> 00:41:13,356 Speaker 1: being vulnerable to show like, look at this helps, look 733 00:41:13,396 --> 00:41:16,476 Speaker 1: at what it does like it's just so life giving 734 00:41:16,556 --> 00:41:19,156 Speaker 1: and so helpful. How can people find out more about you? 735 00:41:19,196 --> 00:41:19,876 Speaker 1: More about the book? 736 00:41:20,276 --> 00:41:22,956 Speaker 3: Well, we're involved with a number of different ministries, including 737 00:41:22,996 --> 00:41:24,716 Speaker 3: a family life. But if people will go to my 738 00:41:24,796 --> 00:41:29,516 Speaker 3: personal site Rondel dot org Rondeel dot org, they can 739 00:41:29,556 --> 00:41:31,876 Speaker 3: find our events, they can find links to all the 740 00:41:31,916 --> 00:41:35,835 Speaker 3: other ministries that we're involved in, and how to get 741 00:41:35,836 --> 00:41:37,996 Speaker 3: this book. It's available wherever books are sold. 742 00:41:39,196 --> 00:41:41,196 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for this time together. 743 00:41:41,276 --> 00:41:42,076 Speaker 2: It's been so rich. 744 00:41:42,516 --> 00:41:43,476 Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you. 745 00:41:45,156 --> 00:41:48,516 Speaker 1: I hope you've enjoyed today's conversation. I'd love to keep 746 00:41:48,516 --> 00:41:52,196 Speaker 1: in touch beyond this podcast. Click subscribe in the show 747 00:41:52,236 --> 00:41:54,796 Speaker 1: notes and I will give you my latest email to 748 00:41:54,876 --> 00:41:58,756 Speaker 1: keep up on what's happening with technology and kids. And 749 00:41:58,796 --> 00:41:59,556 Speaker 1: maybe you like. 750 00:41:59,596 --> 00:42:01,396 Speaker 2: Reading or listening to books. 751 00:42:01,436 --> 00:42:03,516 Speaker 1: I have a lot of books. You could start with 752 00:42:03,636 --> 00:42:09,116 Speaker 1: The Big Three, Making Marriage Easier, Parents Rising, or Screen Kids. 753 00:42:09,716 --> 00:42:11,796 Speaker 1: A big thank you to the team at Life Audio 754 00:42:11,916 --> 00:42:15,156 Speaker 1: for their partnership with the Happy Home podcast. Check out 755 00:42:15,236 --> 00:42:18,556 Speaker 1: life audio dot com for dozens of other faith related 756 00:42:18,596 --> 00:42:22,996 Speaker 1: podcast pass about prayer, Bible study, and more. Remember you 757 00:42:23,036 --> 00:42:26,036 Speaker 1: don't have to come from a happy home to create one. 758 00:42:26,356 --> 00:42:28,516 Speaker 1: You two can have a happy homes.