1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: You're obviously an academic at the highest level, and you 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: talk about how being an academic, being a mathematician is 3 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,879 Speaker 1: a way of honoring and serving the Lord. You've also 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: gone beyond that. You're also an apologist and an evangelist. 5 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 2: The logic of the truth of Christianity really spoke to 6 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 2: me and said, you cannot keep this to yourself. You 7 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 2: need to articulate this. I tried as a young person, 8 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 2: as a teenager, to begin to share my faith. My 9 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 2: experience of people being angry showed me that they'd lost 10 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 2: the plot if you cannot discuss reasonably and in a 11 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 2: friendly fashion. The Lord was only tough on people who 12 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 2: were bigoted. With all others, he was just so gracious. 13 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 2: He never compromised truths. 14 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: Meeting C. S. Lewis, debating leading atheists such as Richard 15 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: Dawkins and Christah Hitchins, studying at Cambridge and teaching at Oxford, 16 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: many best selling books. Doctor John Lennox, you have lived 17 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: a truly remarkable and fascinating life, which you chronicle in 18 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: your new autobiography, My Story. First off, thanks for coming 19 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: on the show again and sharing about your life. 20 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 2: That's a pleasure to be with you. 21 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: Again, before we get to your story, I have to 22 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: start with your encounter with C. S. Lewis. What was 23 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: that encounter like and how much did he and his 24 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: writings influence your life. 25 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 2: It was a remarkable encounter, really, in the sense that 26 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 2: it was one of his final lectures in nineteen sixty 27 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 2: two in a very cold winter, and I knew that 28 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 2: he was still in Cambridge at the time, and I 29 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 2: discovered he was lecturing, and even better, I discovered he 30 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 2: was lecturing very near to the Mathematics Institute. So I 31 00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 2: went to hear several of his final series of lectures 32 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 2: that he ever gave on the English port John Dunne. 33 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 2: And what I remember of it, which I've re enacted 34 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 2: in my film Against the Tide, is that it was 35 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 2: freezing cold, the place was packed, and Lewis, a big 36 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 2: chap came in at exactly the right time, and he 37 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 2: was wearing a heavy coat and a big long scarf 38 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 2: and the hat, and he started lecturing the moment he 39 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 2: came through the door. I hadn't seen this before, but 40 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 2: he did. And he kept lecturing as he wound his 41 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 2: way among the students who were sitting all over the floor, 42 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 2: and gradually unwound the scarf, discarded his coat and his hat, 43 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 2: so that by the time he was firmly standing at 44 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 2: the podium, you'd had four or five minutes who have 45 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 2: brilliant lecture, And then after fifty minutes he reversed the process. 46 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:00,519 Speaker 2: He kept lecturing as he put on his coat, wound 47 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 2: up his scarf, for on his hat, and his last 48 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 2: words were perfectly timed to be uttered at exactly the 49 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 2: time he disappeared out through the double door. So there's 50 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 2: no Q and A. 51 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: That is fascinating. Now, of all figures that you discussed, 52 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: how central was his writings to you and your worldview? 53 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 2: It was very important to me because Lewis was someone 54 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 2: I found crystal sharp in his logic, and to have 55 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: that kind of mind applied to basic Christianity I found 56 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 2: inordinately helpful. Secondly, he had not been brought up in 57 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: a Christian environment as I had, and I still have 58 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 2: no idea what it's like to be an unbeliever and 59 00:03:55,120 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 2: an adult, So he was my guide into what it 60 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: was like to be an adult and an atheist, and 61 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 2: his development that is thinking, I followed very carefully and 62 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 2: found that immensely helpful. Then another aspect of it was. 63 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 2: Although Lewis was in the humanities and confessed he wasn't 64 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 2: much of a mathematician, he had a good sense of 65 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 2: how geometry worked, and he had a very good sense 66 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 2: of what we would now call the philosophy of science, 67 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 2: and better than many scientists I know, I'm afraid, and 68 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 2: so he could disentangle the worldview commitments that lay behind 69 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 2: many pronouncements, and that I found greatly helpful at a 70 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 2: stage when I was growing up and trying to fit 71 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 2: various things into place, like where did mathematics fit into science? 72 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 2: And where did science fit in to our understanding of 73 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 2: the world out there? These were all to become very 74 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 2: important fields of thought for me. So Lewis was crucial, 75 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 2: and he was able also to use geometry in novel 76 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 2: ways to illustrate some basic Christian doctrines in a very 77 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 2: understandable way. But most of all, Sean, I think what 78 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 2: I owe to him is a standard of clarity of 79 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 2: logical thought, and I suppose one should add his what 80 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 2: has been called thoroughgoing supernaturalism. He grasped that Christianity had 81 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 2: a supernatural dimension without which it completely fell apart, and 82 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 2: I could see that that was right. So he helped 83 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 2: me a lot to settle in me at a very 84 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 2: early age a deep conviction that Christianity was true, and 85 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 2: that of course puts it in a very different league. 86 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 2: It's not just a collection of wise sayings and good advice. 87 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 2: It's a true message and it gives us a true 88 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 2: analysis of the world of which we live. So Lewis 89 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 2: was very important for me. 90 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: We're going to come back to some of your reasons 91 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: why you're Christian, but let's go back kind of where 92 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: you start in the book, some of the early experiences 93 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: in Northern Ireland. What were some of those key experiences 94 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: and how do they shape your life and shape your faith? 95 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 2: Well, they were key experiences because I grew up and 96 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 2: what I discovered later was quite an unusual family Christian, evangelical, 97 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 2: but not sectarian, and that was an unusual thing. My 98 00:06:55,839 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 2: father insisted on employing across the divided communit unity, and 99 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 2: it was divided, ended up in violence, most of which 100 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 2: happened after I left the country, but it was getting 101 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 2: hot enough for me to ask him on one occasion 102 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 2: why he risked this employing both Catholics and Protestants, And 103 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 2: he said something that left a deep mark. He said, 104 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 2: Scripture genusis one first page of the Bible, teaches me 105 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 2: that all people, whatever their worldview, are made in the 106 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 2: image of God, and I intend to treat them like that. Well, 107 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 2: that was a deep lesson and how not to be sectarian, 108 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 2: and I've tried to practice at the rest of my life. Secondly, 109 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 2: he loved us children enough not to impose his strong 110 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: Christian views on us without discussing them with us. He 111 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 2: was very keen on discussion and opened my mind and 112 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 2: that of my siblings to the wonder of the Biblical 113 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 2: world as a very open kind of thing, getting me 114 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 2: into ancient history of Egypt and Babylon and Middle Persia, 115 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 2: and also discussing the big ideas. And he introduced me 116 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 2: to other worldviews like Marxism and so on, and told 117 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 2: me I needed to understand what other people thought. So 118 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:42,359 Speaker 2: it was quite remarkable, and that was an immensely valuable 119 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 2: foundation for someone who would end up most of his 120 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 2: life at the academy. 121 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: Do you have any sense of what motivated him to 122 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: parent that way? Was just did a confidence in the truth? 123 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: Like where did that desire come from? Because my dad 124 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 1: parented us very similarly believes Christianity passionately, but would always 125 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 1: make us think about two sides of an issue. In 126 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: Sean read the other side, and he parented similarly. For him, 127 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: that came from a deep conviction that Christianity is true. 128 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 1: Why did your father parent you and your siblings that way? 129 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 2: I think it was similar. But one of the other 130 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 2: driving factors was that his father had not allowed him 131 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 2: to gain a higher education, and he would love to 132 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 2: have done that. And I think when he observed that 133 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 2: I had the kind of ability that would lead me 134 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 2: into higher education, he decided that he would give me 135 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 2: the chance, and to a certain extent, bless them. I 136 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 2: believed he lived through me and often visited me in 137 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 2: Cambridge and asked to meet my friends and ask them 138 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 2: all kinds of questions, so that there was a deep 139 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 2: desire in his heart. He wasn't really cut out to 140 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 2: run a business, even though it was quite small. He 141 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 2: would tend to sit in his room reading all kinds 142 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 2: of books, particularly Christian books, but not only and as 143 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 2: I got more and more deeply into that, he would 144 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 2: ask me what books to read, we would discuss them. 145 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 2: He was very humble in that sense, and I think 146 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 2: how shall I put it? He was a frustrated academic 147 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 2: for most of his life. 148 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: You describe pretty early in the book being convinced early 149 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: on that Christianity was true. So you have a father 150 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: talking with you, having you read multiple sides and not 151 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: kind of forceing so to speak this on you. What 152 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: convinced you that Christianity was true? What was that journey 153 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: kind of like? And have you ever looked back and 154 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: second guess that Christian commitment? 155 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,439 Speaker 2: Well, I spent my life looking back and second guessing it, 156 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 2: mostly without looking back, because my conviction that Christianity is 157 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 2: true has arisen, because I've opened my life and mind 158 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 2: and thinking and made it vulnerable to criticism from its opposites. 159 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 2: And so very rapidly I got involved in that because 160 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 2: of a very simple objection that I still meet. It's 161 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 2: rather comical now, but when people say, okay, you're a Christian, Well, 162 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 2: what a surprise. All you Irish believe in God and 163 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: you fight about it. It's just genetics, that's all it is, 164 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 2: and there's nothing more to it. Well, of course I'm 165 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 2: familiar with the philosophical superficiality of that kind of argument, 166 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 2: but what it did for me was to say, Now 167 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 2: I've got an opportunity at university to meet people who 168 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 2: were not brought up with the kind of background information 169 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 2: or culture that I was. So let me start to 170 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 2: expose my thinking to them and find out what they believe, 171 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 2: why they believe it, and how does my world you 172 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 2: have answers to the questions it raised, and of course 173 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 2: that well, I say, of course, but it's net effect 174 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 2: was to increase my confidence in Christianity immeasurably, because my 175 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,959 Speaker 2: newfound friends, and there were many of them, raised all 176 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 2: kinds of questions, and I spent time researching these questions, 177 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 2: so that even before I got to university, I must 178 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 2: say I'd read a lot of stuff and how to 179 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 2: answer the big questions coming from all worldviews, and that 180 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 2: prepared me to do my own study of these things 181 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 2: living in a living context with my contemporaries at Cambridge. 182 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: You're an America. You're an emeritus prospective of no Problem 183 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: of mathematics at Oxford. What was the journey of becoming 184 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: a mathematician and how do you see the intersection of 185 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: math and faith? 186 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 2: Well, I started at school, got interested in maths and 187 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 2: wanted to be various things at various times. First of all, 188 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 2: I was interested in being a classic scholar because I 189 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 2: liked Latin, and then I shifted and I wanted to 190 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 2: study modern languages. And then I ended up with electronic 191 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 2: engineering and got a very good scholarship to a local 192 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 2: university to do that. But everything changed when my headmaster 193 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 2: said to me that I might have a chance at Cambridge, 194 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 2: but only if I switched to concentrate on maths, because 195 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 2: they couldn't teach at the necessary level in physics and 196 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 2: chemistry that would be needed to do the natural sciences 197 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 2: at Cambridge. And that's how I ended up doing maths 198 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 2: at Cambridge and developed a mathematical career, doing my undergraduate 199 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 2: and PhD at Cambridge University, doing research so that all 200 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 2: that time, of course, I was interested not only in 201 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 2: maths but the philosophy of maths. Where does maths fit 202 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 2: into the big picture? And I discovered very early on 203 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 2: the conviction of pioneer scientists like will Galileo, I suppose, 204 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 2: and then Kepler, Ninn Newton, who are brilliant scientists, believers 205 00:14:53,560 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 2: in God, but all of whom believed that mathematics was 206 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 2: the key to all of this and was essentially as 207 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 2: I would now say, the language of God. That's quoting 208 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 2: Francis Collins, actually, who said that and put it as 209 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 2: the title of his book on the human Genome. The 210 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 2: point there being that you mentioned science or mathematics and faith. 211 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 2: But I discovered a long time ago that faith is ubiquitous, 212 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 2: that mathematicians are people of faith, not necessarily Christian faith, 213 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 2: but they believe that the universe is mathematically intelligible. And 214 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 2: I came across a statement by Albert Einstein and that 215 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 2: lived with me and still does, where he said, I 216 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 2: cannot imagine a genuine scientist without that faith by which 217 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 2: he meant and explained faith in the rational intelligibility of 218 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 2: the Union. So I suddenly realized that everyone is a 219 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 2: person of faith. The question is what did they believe 220 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 2: and why do they believe it? Is it evidence based faith? 221 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 2: Because if it isn't, it's not worth thinking about. Really, 222 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 2: And I saw that what mathematics was doing was telling 223 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 2: me that this was a word based universe, and that 224 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 2: resonates so deeply with the statement at the beginning of 225 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 2: the Fourth Gospel. In the beginning was the Word. All 226 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 2: things came to be through the Word. And indeed the 227 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 2: statement at the beginning of the Bible, and God said, 228 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 2: let there be light and so on, a word based universe, 229 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 2: and of course that took on a new dimension when 230 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 2: the structure of DNA would have discovered that. I found 231 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 2: that biology is word based as well, the longest word 232 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 2: in chemical letter, of course, that we've ever discovered. So 233 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 2: the notion of a word based universe was well attested 234 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 2: both in scripture and in science. They fitted together like 235 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,360 Speaker 2: a glove on a hand, and that gave me tremendous 236 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 2: confidence in the Biblical revelation and in the value of science. 237 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 2: So I tend to emphasize very strongly, and I think 238 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 2: I do it in my autobiography that we shouldn't really 239 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 2: be talking about science and faith. Faith is involved in science, 240 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 2: belief in the intelligibility of the universe. If you want 241 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 2: to talk about science and something God related, you really 242 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 2: should talk about science and theology to balance the thing out, 243 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 2: because science is a set of intellectual disciplines, as is theology. 244 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 2: The nearest I allow myself to get to it is 245 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 2: to say science and faith in God, or better stell 246 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 2: faith in science and faith in God. What is the 247 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 2: justification of the warrant for both of those, and that 248 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 2: helps people to see that it is a nonsense to 249 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 2: talk about Christians, as many do led by Dawkins, as 250 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 2: people of faith, meaning that they believe where there's no evidence, 251 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 2: because that's their definition of faith. That is absolutely false. 252 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: It's obviously you love both math and you love the scriptures. 253 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,679 Speaker 1: But it seems like the love of math came to 254 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: you somewhat naturally, but maybe not the love of scriptures 255 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: in the same Ay. What I mean by that is 256 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: you right being puzzled that if scripture was really inspired 257 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,199 Speaker 1: this is years ago as a student, why did you 258 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: not find it more interesting than say math or philosophy 259 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: of science. When you encountered and had that thought, who 260 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: were what changed your mind to the point where your 261 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: book before this one was a huge commentary on Revelation, 262 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: which somebody only writes if they have a certain level 263 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: of love for the scriptures. 264 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 2: Oh, that's absolutely right. It wasn't that I didn't love 265 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 2: the scriptures. It was that I was trying to be 266 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 2: honest about the effect scripture was having on me and 267 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 2: realizing that one of the fundamental things that Jesus claimed 268 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 2: to his disciples was that if they loved him, he 269 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 2: would reveal himself to them. And it was that experiential 270 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 2: sense of God speaking through his word that began to 271 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 2: exercise my mind. And that's when I began to realize 272 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 2: that perhaps I needed help. And guidance arrived in the 273 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 2: form of my longtime mentor who's gone to Glory and 274 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 2: I Professor David Gooding, who at that stage of life, 275 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 2: performed for me a very important function in that he 276 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 2: showed me how scripture worked, and it was clear it 277 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 2: didn't take long to do that. At the beginning. This 278 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 2: was something that was missing, and it was odd because 279 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,880 Speaker 2: my father saw it at the same time as I did. 280 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 2: We were both learning together, and it was just a 281 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 2: very important opening of the door by someone who had 282 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 2: penetrated further than I had into how scripture worked. And 283 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 2: that's why I've ended up not simply writing on science 284 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 2: and religion, but also actually writing books that expound scripture, 285 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 2: and as you say, ending up with a massive book 286 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,959 Speaker 2: on the Book of Revelation, a very risky thing, of 287 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 2: course for a mathematician to do. 288 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: For sure. Well, I'm amazed at how much you've written 289 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: on the intersection of say, faith and work. You've written 290 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: on the Book of Daniel. You've written on revelation, science 291 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 1: and faith, just such a breadth artificial intelligence. And this 292 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 1: leads to me on of next question is you're obviously 293 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: an academic at the highest level, trained at Cambridge, emeritus 294 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: professor at Oxford, and you talk about how being an academic, 295 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: being a mathematician is a way of honoring and serving 296 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: the lore, but you've also gone beyond that. You're also 297 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 1: an apologist and an evangelist. What experiences are thinking led 298 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: you to not just be a mathematician, as wonderful as 299 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: that is, but also an apologist and evangelist. 300 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 2: I think the simplest answer is that the logic of 301 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 2: the truth of Christianity really spoke to me and said, 302 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 2: you cannot keep this to yourself. You need to articulate this. 303 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 2: And I could see that. I don't know who it 304 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 2: was said it, that may well have been F. F. Bruce. 305 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 2: And one of the books I read years ago that 306 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:15,880 Speaker 2: the New Testament doesn't imagine or envisage a non evangelizing, 307 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 2: silent Christian. And so I tried to as a young person, 308 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,880 Speaker 2: as a teenager, to begin to share my faith, and 309 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 2: there was a book I found very helpful in those 310 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 2: days how to give away your faith, and coupled with 311 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,360 Speaker 2: a couple more books, one of them I Think, by 312 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 2: the same author, Know what you believe and know why 313 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 2: you believe. And I began to try to sort this 314 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 2: out in my own mind and share it with other people, 315 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 2: particularly one on one. It was a long way from 316 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 2: doing it in public, but it was my experience as 317 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 2: a university student where I spent quite a bit of 318 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 2: time sharing one on one or one on two or three, 319 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 2: discussing as fellow students what we believed to be true. 320 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 2: And it gained traction. And when I saw that gaining 321 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 2: traction and people began to be converted, not in big numbers, 322 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 2: but seeing people change their worldview was a remarkably important 323 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 2: thing for me because it answered the old question, it's 324 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 2: in the Irish genes, and therefore you you stay believing 325 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 2: what you grew up to believe. When I discovered no, 326 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 2: you don't. You can be convinced of the truth of 327 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 2: Christianity starting from any position whatsoever, and that was a 328 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 2: very clear validation to me that this was a message 329 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 2: for the world. 330 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: I let you talk about the Irish genes. My mom 331 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 1: was actually traveling through Ireland when they were married, before 332 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: they had kids, and saw the name Sean, is like, 333 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 1: if I have a son, I want to name him Sean. 334 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: So there's that Irish built in my blood and built 335 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: in my name. So I love hearing you describing it 336 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 1: that way. One of the ways that people would describe 337 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: you is you're obviously brilliant. God has gifted you as 338 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 1: such an amazing mind, and you've used that for his kingdom. 339 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: But you're just kind to people and you're gracious to people. 340 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering, is that a product of one of 341 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: these or all these? Like the environment, the culture you 342 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: grew up in your family, is your understanding scripture? Is 343 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: it your personality? Why do you choose to communicate the 344 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: way that you communicate. 345 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:47,919 Speaker 2: Because any other way doesn't get through to people? And 346 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 2: I had gracious parents, that's true, not that they were 347 00:24:53,640 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 2: never angry, but my experience of people being angry showed 348 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 2: me that they'd lost the plot if you cannot discuss 349 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 2: reasonably and in a friendly fashion. But what is more, 350 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 2: I noticed in Scripture the way in which the Lord 351 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:20,479 Speaker 2: was only tough on people who were bigoted, and with 352 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 2: all others he was just so gracious, but what he 353 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 2: was able to do was a huge challenge. He never 354 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 2: compromised truth and coming across the balance that Paul taught 355 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 2: in Ephesians, speaking the truth and love. It seems to 356 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 2: me that that was something really deliberately to aim at 357 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 2: in private discussion. Befriend people, listened to them and all 358 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 2: of those things that come with it. Listen to others 359 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 2: and you learn a great deal about yourself as well 360 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 2: as about them. And of course in the public debates 361 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 2: it was perfectly clear that when people lost their temper, 362 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:05,439 Speaker 2: they might as well have given up. 363 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 1: Very very true. Well, there's so many anecdotes in your 364 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: book we obviously won't even remotely get to in this 365 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: interview about being in Rwanda and communists Russia and Poland 366 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 1: and Hungary. I want to highlight a few just so 367 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: we can draw some of these experiences that you've had. 368 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 1: But I also first want to ask you a question 369 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: people ask me regularly. They'll say, what do you consider 370 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: the toughest objection to Christianity and how do you address it? 371 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 2: Now? 372 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: You could probably give a three hour lecture on it, 373 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: perfectly timed like C. S. Lewis's lecture, but I'm really 374 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,360 Speaker 1: just curious, what do you think is the hardest affection 375 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 1: of Christian faith? And maybe just a few points you 376 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 1: would make in response, Well. 377 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 2: The hardest problem anybody faces, I think any human being 378 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 2: faces is the problem of suffering and pain and all 379 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 2: the things that surround that. And you can attach to 380 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 2: that various consequences like a sense of meaninglessness, a sense 381 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 2: of lack of purpose and so on. But the problem 382 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 2: of suffering and pain, and it does demand a careful analysis. 383 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 2: It demands something more. It demands sympathy and empathy, because 384 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 2: it seems to me that we need to distinguish two 385 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 2: perspectives on it, the person who is the pain and 386 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 2: suffering of others and people like that. And it's often 387 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 2: many of us watching the TV news and seeing some 388 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 2: awful atrocity. That's where a lot of intellectual questions come from, 389 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:58,400 Speaker 2: seeing suffering and asking why doesn't God do something about it? 390 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 2: But then there is the experience of the sufferer, the 391 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 2: person that's going through it. They may not be in 392 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 2: a position to even understand an intellectual response. They want comfort, 393 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 2: they want reassurance, and so on. In other words, they 394 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 2: need a pastoral response. And then if you stand back 395 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,719 Speaker 2: from the problem, you see that it is two sources. 396 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:33,719 Speaker 2: There is the suffering that people cause to one another, 397 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 2: which is we call moral evil, bombings and mutilations, atrocities, gangsters, 398 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 2: and all the rest of it. But then there's the 399 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 2: problem of pain, as Lewis called it, and that is tsunamis, earthquakes, 400 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 2: cancers and all of that. They're different sources, although they 401 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 2: often intertwine with one another, so that what we face 402 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 2: is a set of intellectual problems, a set of emotional 403 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 2: problems and meaning problems, and at the heart of it 404 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 2: lies suffering. Now on the intellectual side, one notices that 405 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 2: the solutions offered are not many. Atheism said it has 406 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 2: solved it because there simply is no God, and suffering 407 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 2: proves it. But that, to my mind, on analysis proves 408 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 2: to be very shallow. First of all, it doesn't make 409 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 2: sense because atheists will, if they follow their logic carefully, 410 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 2: as Dawkins has done, end up with the universe where 411 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 2: there's no good and no evil, And then they call 412 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 2: suffering evil. So there's something double think going on there. 413 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 2: In other words, their atheism undermines the categories of good 414 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 2: and evil, as the Russian novelist Fyodor Dostoevsky so long 415 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 2: time ago, and he put that in his famous phrase, 416 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 2: if there is no God, everything is permissible. That is, 417 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 2: there's no rationale, there's no good and no evil. So 418 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 2: atheism is an intellectual dead end. But also it doesn't 419 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 2: remove the suffering. For some atheists, it appears to give 420 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 2: them a ground for just pressing on and hoping that 421 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 2: they'll gained something in this life, because there's no future 422 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 2: life in which any compensation could take place. So that 423 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 2: needs to be analyzed though. But on the other hand, 424 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 2: on the Christian side, we's something utterly unique, and that 425 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 2: is at the heart of the Gospel is a God 426 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 2: who suffers in his son Jesus Christ. That's the claim. 427 00:30:54,480 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 2: And I feel that that gives huge traction because it's 428 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 2: not a simplistic answer, nor is it in one sense 429 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 2: a philosophical answer in terms of principles and so on. 430 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 2: It's an existential answer in terms of a God who, 431 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 2: in Jesus Christ, goes to the cross and suffers. And 432 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 2: that shows us, first of all, at the very most 433 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 2: obvious level, that God has not remained indifferent to our 434 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 2: human suffering, but has become part of it, and then 435 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 2: what gives me hope is the fact that it wasn't 436 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 2: left there. In fact, if it had been, we'd never 437 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 2: heard of Jesus Christ. But God raised them from the dead, 438 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 2: and that's where the hope comes in. And that is, 439 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 2: as I said before, that is something thoroughly supernatural. God 440 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 2: raised Jesus from the dead, and death can never look 441 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 2: the same, and so we have to factor that in. 442 00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 2: So that's how I'd begin. But I've written a bit 443 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 2: about this, and there's lots out there in cyberspace of 444 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 2: me discussing it. It's interesting thinking of the United States 445 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 2: and North America. I think I've done over sixty Veritas 446 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 2: forums in most of the Ivy League and elsewhere, and 447 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 2: the top topic by some distance has always been the 448 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 2: problem of suffering. And one very memorable evening was spent 449 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 2: at ground zero, not at ground zero, looking at ground 450 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 2: zero from Upper Manhattan the steps of the library at 451 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 2: Columbia University, where I was given for the first time, 452 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 2: I believe in its history, the opportunity to give a 453 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 2: talk outside to the students assembled on the steps, and 454 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 2: it was it is called and you can get it 455 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 2: on the Veritas website. Silence where is God? On nine 456 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 2: to eleven? And that I felt was a unique opportunity 457 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 2: to at least bring some of the scriptures to bear. 458 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 2: There are no simple answers. There are ragged edges and 459 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 2: all the rest of it. So let me make the 460 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 2: final point. People often argue and say, it's surely a 461 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 2: good and all powerful God would put a stop to this, 462 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 2: and he would do this, and he would do that. 463 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 2: And we've argued that, but we've never really got anywhere 464 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 2: with that argument. It goes round and round and round 465 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 2: and round. Now I'm a mathematician, and when we come 466 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 2: to arguments like that that get nowhere, we tend to 467 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 2: look at ourselves and say, are we asking the right questions? 468 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 2: And I think we may not be. So I have 469 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 2: another question that's equally difficult, but it gets you a 470 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 2: lot further, and that is this, we almost face the 471 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 2: fact that the world we look at presents a mixed picture. 472 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,880 Speaker 2: I call it beauty and barred wire or beauty and bombs. 473 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 2: And everybody understands that. We almost face that. So my 474 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 2: big question is this, granted that it's like that, is 475 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 2: there any evidence anywhere that there is a God that 476 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 2: we could trust with that, and I believe there is. 477 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 2: And the way to understand it is start with the 478 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 2: Cross of Christ and go to the resurrection and all 479 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 2: Jesus promises about the future. 480 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: Amen. I love that response that appeals about the heart 481 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: and appeals the mind. I haven't done sixty that's correct. Yeah, 482 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: I haven't done sixty veritas. But this spring I was 483 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: out called Paul San Lucibispo and the topic that students 484 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 1: wanted for myself and an atheist was why is there 485 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: suffering and evil in the world? It really is the 486 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,240 Speaker 1: big question. Now, speaking of kind of dialogues on college campuses, 487 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,240 Speaker 1: I've got to ask you about the exchange with Richard Dawkins, 488 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: And I'm curious do you know him? You're both at Oxford. 489 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,880 Speaker 1: Is there any backstory to the preparation, what's come falling 490 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 1: from it? Just tell us that story and kind of 491 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: what happened, if you will. 492 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 2: No, I'm afraid it's quite one dimensional. I have not 493 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 2: met him outside those debates. I had not met him 494 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 2: before and I haven't met him since, although I made 495 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 2: some effort to do so. It's sad to my mind 496 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 2: because in preparing for those debates, I had to do 497 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 2: an enormous amount of work in trying to understand what 498 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 2: he was saying and all the rest of it. But 499 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:49,720 Speaker 2: outside the debate's no contact whatsoever. So I have nothing 500 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 2: really to offer in that regard. And in that sense, 501 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 2: what I would say is that everyone else that I've 502 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 2: debated I was able to interact with outside the debates 503 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 2: and got really maving for attraction with every single one 504 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 2: of them. 505 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: I love that. Well, no prom at all. I'm not 506 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:14,919 Speaker 1: fishing for anything that's not there. 507 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 2: Well, there's nothing, there's nothing to there's nothing to get. 508 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 2: And I appreciate the question. It's a perfectly warranted question. 509 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:27,839 Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I haven't got a better answer to it. 510 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: No, the best answer is the truth, and that's the truth. 511 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: So we will let it sit. I'm perfectly happy for that. 512 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 2: That's fine, that's fine. 513 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: Let me ask you about a few of the encounters that 514 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: you've had. One was, interestingly, with a secular Jew on 515 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,280 Speaker 1: an academic visit to Israel. You kind of talk about 516 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,360 Speaker 1: what you learned, but also this case that you made 517 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,320 Speaker 1: for why you believe Jesus is the Messiah. What happened 518 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:54,840 Speaker 1: in that exchange? 519 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 2: Ah, that that's a bit more complicated in the sense 520 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 2: that these were academic people, and I met them first 521 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 2: in Scotland at a mass conference, and they invited me 522 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 2: to Israel, where I had lots of discussion with them. 523 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 2: I actually was a visiting professor at the top Orthodox 524 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 2: University of Barylan just outside Tel Aviv, within Tel Aviv, 525 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 2: essentially in Israel, and what I discovered there was they 526 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 2: were extremely friendly but really puzzled by someone like me 527 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 2: who was a non Jew but believed the prophets. That 528 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:47,480 Speaker 2: led to many, many discussions. But the start of that, 529 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 2: the first interaction that led to it was over breakfast 530 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 2: at the math Mary's conference in Scotland and I was 531 00:37:55,480 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 2: eating a pork sausage and bacon, the usual English brecks 532 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 2: with mushrooms and so on. And one of these Jewish 533 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 2: people had a keeper on and sat next to me, 534 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 2: and he was eating an orange, and there was another 535 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,279 Speaker 2: one on the other side, not wearing a keeper. I 536 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 2: can't remember what he was eating. So there were the 537 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:22,839 Speaker 2: three of us at the table, and I knew one 538 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,760 Speaker 2: of them moderately well because I'd met him at other conferences. 539 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,440 Speaker 2: But the man with the keeper, I said, do you 540 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 2: mind me asking you? But I see you're an Orthodox 541 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 2: Jew and he said, yes, I am. And I asked 542 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 2: him if he was expecting the coming of Hamashiach, the Messiah, 543 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 2: and he said he was. And the other man then 544 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 2: chimed in said, and I'm not so true to good 545 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 2: scriptural for their rosa mension above them. And I didn't 546 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 2: get a word in for quite a while when one 547 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 2: of them said, but one thing I do know is 548 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:18,200 Speaker 2: you're Jesus. You're you show up using the Hebrew name, 549 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 2: could not be the Messiah? I said, oh, really, why 550 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 2: is that? Well? I did not forget is the answer? 551 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:32,239 Speaker 2: In a hurry, it was so compressed. He said, our 552 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 2: nation was under Roman occupation when Jesus came, and it 553 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 2: was still under it when he left. He didn't deliver 554 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:47,759 Speaker 2: anyone from anything. That's the way he put it. And 555 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 2: I said, is that what you really think? Because I 556 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,800 Speaker 2: have a slightly different take on this, I said, look, 557 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 2: tell me, was Moshe a prophet? You always use the 558 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 2: Hebrew names if you want to get anywhere talking to 559 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:11,760 Speaker 2: these people. Yes, he was a prophet, and he instituted 560 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 2: under God the tabernacle system, and the offerings and sacrifices. 561 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:18,799 Speaker 2: What were those four? 562 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 1: Oh? 563 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 2: He said those were for dealing with the problem of 564 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 2: human sin, and I said, yes, so it would seem 565 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:31,840 Speaker 2: to me. Now, what about yesiahu Isaiah? Was he a prophet? Yes? 566 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:39,839 Speaker 2: And I said, why do you think he personal personalized it? 567 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 2: And I quoted Isaiah fifty three he was wounded for 568 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:50,320 Speaker 2: our transgressions. And before he said anything more, I jumped 569 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 2: in and said, now he cannot have been speaking about 570 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 2: Israel suffering, because it says explicitly for the transgressions of 571 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 2: my people, he suffered. Now, I believe that Messiah will 572 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 2: come and will rule, but that he first had to 573 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:16,400 Speaker 2: do this. And there was a dead silence at that, 574 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,719 Speaker 2: you see, And they looked at each other, and I 575 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:24,920 Speaker 2: thought that was the finish of it. But the very kindly, 576 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 2: and I liked him a lot. He's dead now. They 577 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 2: became a very good friend. He looked at his colleague 578 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,759 Speaker 2: and he said, I think we should invite this man 579 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:40,479 Speaker 2: to Israel. Okay, And that finished it, except for one 580 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,280 Speaker 2: really amusing thing. He held his finger at a safe 581 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 2: distance from the sausage on my plate, and he said, 582 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,160 Speaker 2: and what does your religion say to this? And I 583 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:57,200 Speaker 2: grinned and said, ah, I said, that's a good question, 584 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:02,480 Speaker 2: because when the Messiah was on earth, he removed those 585 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 2: food restrictions. He said, we'll talk in Israel and we did. 586 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,799 Speaker 2: So that is a history about that. And during my 587 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:16,279 Speaker 2: month in Barylan, I got opportunities all the time to 588 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,600 Speaker 2: talk to these people. They even tried to persuade me 589 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 2: to stay so that they could learn Hebrew, which I'd 590 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 2: love to have done, but I had a wife and 591 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 2: children waiting in Cardiff, so I couldn't. 592 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,759 Speaker 1: Do that final question, if that's okay. And by the way, 593 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,680 Speaker 1: first John five point thirteen also affirms your views. As 594 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: I write these things to you who believe in the 595 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,000 Speaker 1: name of the Son of God, that you may know 596 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:39,320 Speaker 1: that you have eternal life. 597 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:44,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, that is very important. We can know, and it's 598 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,839 Speaker 2: worth saying to people. I'm glad you raised that. It's 599 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 2: worth saying to people. I don't know everything, but I 600 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,719 Speaker 2: know I can know what God wants me to know, 601 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 2: and this is one of them. It's a very important 602 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 2: state because you will get another group of people in 603 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:10,800 Speaker 2: various sections of Christendom who say, oh, we cannot really 604 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,400 Speaker 2: know much about God. It's the so called apathetic tradition. 605 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 2: God is not. This is not that we must be 606 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 2: humble and realize that we cannot. And I say, look, 607 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,759 Speaker 2: we can know about God. What he has revealed to 608 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,880 Speaker 2: say we can't as actually arrogance, not its opposite. So 609 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,280 Speaker 2: that one John five is a very important text. 610 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,399 Speaker 1: So I found a question for you, Doctor Lennox said. 611 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,000 Speaker 1: I was interviewing my father for a while. He's eighty 612 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,520 Speaker 1: six years old, and I asked him how he thinks 613 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,400 Speaker 1: about faith differently, and this is when he turned like 614 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,359 Speaker 1: seventy five plus. And one of the things he said 615 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,279 Speaker 1: is he thinks about heaven a lot more than he 616 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:57,320 Speaker 1: used to. The last chapter in your book is on heaven, 617 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,319 Speaker 1: kind of the hope of heaven. Tell me why that's 618 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: the last chapter and why that uniquely gives you so 619 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:03,680 Speaker 1: much hope. 620 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,400 Speaker 2: Well, for the same reason as your father is talking 621 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:11,440 Speaker 2: about it to you. You said earlier that the book 622 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:16,120 Speaker 2: before this book, my story, is about the Book of Revelation, 623 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 2: and my reason for writing that is very clearly that 624 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,719 Speaker 2: as I approach the last phase of my life, my 625 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:29,440 Speaker 2: mind is increasingly filled with the wonder of what lies before, 626 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,240 Speaker 2: and that, to my mind is evidence of the truth 627 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:37,040 Speaker 2: of Christianity. Many years ago, a friend of mine, who's 628 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 2: a brilliant epidemiologist, did research on elderly people, and he discovered, 629 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:50,440 Speaker 2: as a byproduct of his surveys that as people grew older, 630 00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:56,920 Speaker 2: if they were unbelievers, their time horizon shrank very rapidly. 631 00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,359 Speaker 2: First they were concerned about the next year, in the 632 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,840 Speaker 2: next month, then the next week, then the next few days, 633 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 2: then the next few hours and minutes, as if the 634 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:11,480 Speaker 2: horizon was collapsing, whereas the believers he met it was 635 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:16,759 Speaker 2: the exact opposite. As they grew nearer to death, their 636 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:21,000 Speaker 2: minds grew wider. And if Christianity is true, that's exactly 637 00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,600 Speaker 2: what you would expect. And in addition to that, it 638 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:30,040 Speaker 2: seems to me, in light of the undermining of hope 639 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:35,480 Speaker 2: today and the sense of meaninglessness through fear of artificial 640 00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:41,160 Speaker 2: intelligence and things like that, we need the church needs 641 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,840 Speaker 2: to articulate the Christian hope right into the middle of that. 642 00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,719 Speaker 2: And I started doing that in my book on Artificial 643 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:53,359 Speaker 2: Intelligence twenty eighty four to try to get some of 644 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,719 Speaker 2: the hope that's expressed in the Book of Revelation elsewhere 645 00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:01,400 Speaker 2: into the debate. When I've done that and realized the traction, 646 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,080 Speaker 2: cop I then took the big risk of writing a 647 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:10,480 Speaker 2: book on revelation. So it's interesting to hear that about 648 00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:15,280 Speaker 2: your dad, whose folks helped me again in the past, 649 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,839 Speaker 2: and if you see him again you tell them that. 650 00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:20,160 Speaker 1: Oh, that's really kind of you to say that. I 651 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:22,879 Speaker 1: will say that for sure. And the insight you made 652 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,520 Speaker 1: about how non believers and believers think about time as 653 00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,520 Speaker 1: they approach death is just one example of the kind 654 00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:33,520 Speaker 1: of insight that fills this book. It's called My Story, 655 00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:37,720 Speaker 1: and you tell your spiritual and intellectual autobiography. So it's huge, 656 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:41,520 Speaker 1: out of four or five hundred pages, very readable. It's 657 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,080 Speaker 1: full of kind of the apologetic case that you make, 658 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:46,439 Speaker 1: but through your story and your life in a way 659 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,840 Speaker 1: that just draws readers in. There's a kind of drama 660 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:52,239 Speaker 1: that's built into it, which is why I told my 661 00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,319 Speaker 1: wife when she has time this summer, I think she 662 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:58,400 Speaker 1: would really enjoy if she read it. Well, if folks 663 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,800 Speaker 1: enjoyed this interview, we have conversation about your book on AI. 664 00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:05,800 Speaker 1: We also had two conversations here on your book on revelation, 665 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:08,279 Speaker 1: and so people can check that out as well. I 666 00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,760 Speaker 1: appreciate your personal friendship. You mentioned that my father's books 667 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:16,440 Speaker 1: have influenced you. Your writings and our conversations have profoundly 668 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:20,200 Speaker 1: influenced me, not just in the defense of the faith, 669 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,799 Speaker 1: but the kindness and charity I consistently see you just 670 00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,640 Speaker 1: model in your engagement with others is an inspiration and 671 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:32,400 Speaker 1: encouragement to me. So thanks for taking the time. Thanks 672 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,200 Speaker 1: so much for joining us. This has really been a treat. Folks. 673 00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,600 Speaker 1: Pick up a copy of the book My Story, Believer 674 00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,920 Speaker 1: or not. You will not be disappointed. You'll be drawn 675 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,319 Speaker 1: in from the opening story. I believe to the end 676 00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:48,040 Speaker 1: and I can't wait to go back through it another time. 677 00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,799 Speaker 1: Make sure you hit subscribe. Friends, We've got more stories 678 00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:55,440 Speaker 1: and more conversations and so many fascinating dialogues here so 679 00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:58,840 Speaker 1: on heaven, near death experiences coming up, some of the 680 00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:02,040 Speaker 1: other interviews on the topic of revelation that we discussed, 681 00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,960 Speaker 1: and far more. And if you want to study apologetics, 682 00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,879 Speaker 1: we'd love to have you at Talbot School Theology, where 683 00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:11,080 Speaker 1: we talk about truth but sharing it graciously. And you've 684 00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:14,120 Speaker 1: been a wonderful personal friend, doctor Lennox, as well as 685 00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,360 Speaker 1: a friend to what we're doing at Biola and Talbot. 686 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:18,799 Speaker 1: So thank you again for coming on and all that 687 00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:19,160 Speaker 1: you do. 688 00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:23,360 Speaker 2: It's been my great pleasure and I wish you and 689 00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:28,640 Speaker 2: the school God's rich blessing in the future because what 690 00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,440 Speaker 2: do you do is extremely necessary. Keep going. 691 00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,359 Speaker 1: Hey friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that 692 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,360 Speaker 1: fall button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning 693 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:39,760 Speaker 1: in haven't done this yet, and it makes a huge 694 00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:42,560 Speaker 1: difference in helping us reach and equip more people and 695 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:46,960 Speaker 1: build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every 696 00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:48,160 Speaker 1: review helps. 697 00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:50,799 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to The Sean McDowell Show, brought to 698 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:54,480 Speaker 3: you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, where 699 00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:58,480 Speaker 3: we have on campus and online programs and apologetic spiritual information, 700 00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:00,919 Speaker 3: marriage and family Bible, so much more. 701 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:04,000 Speaker 1: We would love to train you to more effectively, live, teach, 702 00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,919 Speaker 1: and defend the Christian faith today and we will see 703 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:08,800 Speaker 1: you when the next episode drops. 704 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:10,960 Speaker 3: H