1
00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:08,080
Speaker 1: Life audio, the cognitive dissonance, the mental frustration, the bodily

2
00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:12,080
Speaker 1: frustration that I was carrying in those moments was wreaking

3
00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:16,680
Speaker 1: havoc on my identity formation that on the outside I

4
00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,440
Speaker 1: so longed, so longed, with every part of me weeping,

5
00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:25,760
Speaker 1: crying tears, pleading with God for me to be reformed

6
00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:30,280
Speaker 1: and reshaped into His image. And yet I knew that

7
00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:33,200
Speaker 1: hours later I was going to be torn back into

8
00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:35,400
Speaker 1: my addictive pattern of behavior. And it just left me

9
00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:39,920
Speaker 1: desperate and destitute and hollow, where I felt like I

10
00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,440
Speaker 1: had to carry the weight of this Christian facade to

11
00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:45,760
Speaker 1: prove to myself, to prove to God, and to prove

12
00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:50,200
Speaker 1: to others that I wasn't this deplorable, despicable, destitute human

13
00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,599
Speaker 1: that I felt like I was underneath the surface.

14
00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,559
Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Confessions of a Christian

15
00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,959
Speaker 2: Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel. This is

16
00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:20,000
Speaker 2: your home for real stories, radical vulnerability, and remarkable comebacks.

17
00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:24,240
Speaker 2: In the end, this podcast is a place for the desperate,

18
00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:29,840
Speaker 2: the downtrodden, the destitute, and especially the drunk. But it's

19
00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:34,080
Speaker 2: also a place of hope and healing. I know that

20
00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:39,480
Speaker 2: firsthand because I'm the Christian who became an alcoholic, not

21
00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:44,199
Speaker 2: the other way around. Today, I've found sobriety after decades

22
00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:50,080
Speaker 2: of struggling. But more importantly than finding sobriety, I found Jesus.

23
00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,440
Speaker 2: My prayer is that as I interview people just like

24
00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,840
Speaker 2: you and just like me, along with professionals in the

25
00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:02,600
Speaker 2: fields of trauma, faith and addiction recovery, you will find

26
00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:07,040
Speaker 2: the piece that is available to you through Christ on

27
00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:12,079
Speaker 2: the other side of whatever you're going through and whatever

28
00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:17,200
Speaker 2: addiction that might be. Because let's face it, we're all

29
00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:23,000
Speaker 2: addicted to something so welcome. Let's get radically vulnerable as

30
00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,919
Speaker 2: we explore what it looks like to be on this

31
00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:33,160
Speaker 2: journey of messy sanctification. Here's the thing. You can engage

32
00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:38,440
Speaker 2: in confession. You can change your behaviors, but if you

33
00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,000
Speaker 2: do not get to the root of what's truly going on,

34
00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:48,000
Speaker 2: it's just going to keep popping up. And like I

35
00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,120
Speaker 2: can say that until I'm blue in the face. It's

36
00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,400
Speaker 2: the reality of my story. It's the reality of so

37
00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,320
Speaker 2: many other people's stories. But I think it's important for

38
00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,560
Speaker 2: you to hear that from other people and here through

39
00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:04,120
Speaker 2: them telling their stories and what's going on and Joe

40
00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,760
Speaker 2: Warnicking is one of those guys. He's one of those

41
00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,480
Speaker 2: people who you know, he went so far. He would

42
00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,480
Speaker 2: talk about, you know, maybe some lust issues and whatnot,

43
00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:21,120
Speaker 2: and until he finally rooted out exactly what was going on,

44
00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,799
Speaker 2: it kept popping up and it in some senses, destroyed him.

45
00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:31,160
Speaker 2: He was in a Christian band, he was kind of

46
00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,000
Speaker 2: set up working and working at his church, and he

47
00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:39,200
Speaker 2: had always had this porn problem and he just had

48
00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:48,000
Speaker 2: Even when he came clean about it to his wife,

49
00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:54,320
Speaker 2: he was still holding back and that led to him

50
00:03:54,480 --> 00:04:00,200
Speaker 2: doing something in public that led to his arrest on

51
00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:06,800
Speaker 2: indecent exposure charges and him losing his job, you know,

52
00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,240
Speaker 2: being kicked out of his band. I mean, it just

53
00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:16,080
Speaker 2: it's spiraled from there because he wasn't radically vulnerable, right,

54
00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,880
Speaker 2: he was vulnerable enough to get the pressure in the

55
00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,240
Speaker 2: heat off. And and so Joel is going to tell

56
00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:27,960
Speaker 2: us his story of addiction to pornography, and I think

57
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,120
Speaker 2: it's it's important. And so if you are someone who

58
00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,440
Speaker 2: struggles your addiction is porn, or even if you're someone

59
00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,760
Speaker 2: who loves someone like that, I think this episode is

60
00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:39,880
Speaker 2: really going to be helpful for you to hear and

61
00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,880
Speaker 2: Joel has become repentant and he's now turned his story

62
00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,760
Speaker 2: into a ministry that he runs called four two three

63
00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:54,920
Speaker 2: Communities that is all about helping people break free from

64
00:04:55,000 --> 00:05:00,000
Speaker 2: sexual brokenness. And I just I value Joel so much.

65
00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,160
Speaker 2: I've had a chance to be on his podcast and

66
00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,680
Speaker 2: get lunch with him, and I just really appreciate him

67
00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,800
Speaker 2: and and actually hope that there's some stuff that we

68
00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:14,080
Speaker 2: can partner together with my nonprofit, Veritas Recovery, as well

69
00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:18,039
Speaker 2: as his. If you'd like to watch this episode of

70
00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,159
Speaker 2: the podcast, you can go to the Veritas Daily dot com.

71
00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:24,840
Speaker 2: Joel has a beautiful new haircut that he has done

72
00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:26,320
Speaker 2: just for this show, so I would love for you

73
00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,599
Speaker 2: to get the opportunity to see that that haircut, and

74
00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,600
Speaker 2: I really think you'll enjoy him. He's uh, he's got

75
00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,640
Speaker 2: He's very witty, funny, like he'll be talking about something

76
00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:40,040
Speaker 2: serious then all of a sudden throwing a joke and

77
00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,680
Speaker 2: I'm like, wait, can you joke about that you just

78
00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:48,000
Speaker 2: did at your own expense? So yeah, enjoy this podcast

79
00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:53,120
Speaker 2: episode with Joel Warnicky. Joel, thank you so much for

80
00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,560
Speaker 2: joining in the Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic podcast, even

81
00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,120
Speaker 2: though you are not an alcoholic, but you have plenty

82
00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,400
Speaker 2: of a dick that we're going to talk about, and

83
00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:04,440
Speaker 2: I think a very common one that even I think

84
00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,000
Speaker 2: more people can relate to you. So I'm excited to

85
00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:08,640
Speaker 2: have you here. Thanks for coming on.

86
00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:11,400
Speaker 1: Did you bring me on under the premise that I

87
00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:13,039
Speaker 1: was struggling with I thought I was here to just

88
00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:18,960
Speaker 1: give advice from that more lofty space of yea perfection okay, yeah, yeah, yeah,

89
00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,240
Speaker 1: every tower to cast down my wisdom to this people.

90
00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:26,039
Speaker 2: So one thing you're going to note this is gonna

91
00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,799
Speaker 2: be a fun podcast because Joel is It's like literally,

92
00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,440
Speaker 2: in one breath he can be talking about his story

93
00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,359
Speaker 2: and you're like, you really did that, that really happened,

94
00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,360
Speaker 2: and then the next breath he's literally cracking a joke

95
00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:39,560
Speaker 2: about it, and it's it's fun. It's awesome.

96
00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,520
Speaker 1: I do apologize for that. My wife will be glad

97
00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:45,480
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of people that can have sympathy

98
00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,160
Speaker 1: for what she has to experience on a daily basis.

99
00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,920
Speaker 1: So I will try to rein it in because there's

100
00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:57,160
Speaker 1: always that edge to this conversation. So yeah, man, we'll

101
00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:57,720
Speaker 1: roll with it.

102
00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,000
Speaker 2: Well. I always like to even though I talked a

103
00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,839
Speaker 2: little bit about you and what you do in the introduction.

104
00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,479
Speaker 2: I always like to give people an opportunity to introduce

105
00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:11,000
Speaker 2: themselves because I think it's interesting what they decide to say.

106
00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,000
Speaker 2: So why don't you introduce yourselves to the audience before

107
00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,160
Speaker 2: we get into your incredible story.

108
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:21,960
Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely, Joel Warniking. I'm a born and raised Pacific

109
00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:28,000
Speaker 1: Northwest native, multi generational up there in Oregon, and I'm

110
00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,360
Speaker 1: the proud father of three girls, and I considered myself

111
00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,720
Speaker 1: a girl dad up until next week, where we will

112
00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,440
Speaker 1: be welcoming baby number four, a little bro is coming

113
00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,520
Speaker 1: into the world, and we're super excited to just grow

114
00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,360
Speaker 1: our family. I'm married to Rachel and she is just

115
00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,200
Speaker 1: you know when scripture talks about he who finds a

116
00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,720
Speaker 1: why finds a good thing, it's just this. She has

117
00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:57,119
Speaker 1: been a tremendous, the most supportive element to my entire life.

118
00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,000
Speaker 1: And you'll hear in my story why And I'm already

119
00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,560
Speaker 1: beginning to tear up just because of the gift of

120
00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,200
Speaker 1: God that she has been to me and to our family.

121
00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,000
Speaker 1: We currently live in Dallas, Texas, so we're down here

122
00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,040
Speaker 1: in Texas now where I get to run four two

123
00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:17,280
Speaker 1: three communities as the President where we equip churches all

124
00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:23,200
Speaker 1: over the world with recovery ecosystems for sexual addiction and betrayal, trauma,

125
00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:28,120
Speaker 1: spanning men, women's spouses, teens, and parents, equipping pastors to

126
00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:32,800
Speaker 1: walk alongside their people and finding hope, healing, and restoration

127
00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:38,439
Speaker 1: from the problematic sexual behaviors and addictions that plague nearly

128
00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,400
Speaker 1: every percent of the population in some way, shape or form.

129
00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,000
Speaker 1: And so that's what I get to do with the

130
00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,480
Speaker 1: course of my life, is to partner with what God

131
00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:52,200
Speaker 1: is doing in this world of helping people find freedom

132
00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,200
Speaker 1: some of the beautiful things down here as well. I

133
00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,440
Speaker 1: get to be a worship pastor and leader and lead

134
00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:01,080
Speaker 1: communities all over the area through worship, which is just

135
00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,560
Speaker 1: my response to what God has done inside of my story.

136
00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,120
Speaker 1: So man honored to be here with you today.

137
00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:07,400
Speaker 2: John.

138
00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,920
Speaker 1: I love your story and what you're doing at Veritas,

139
00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,840
Speaker 1: and I'm excited to dive into the conversation today, brother.

140
00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:17,280
Speaker 2: And I will say I've been a guest on Joel's

141
00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,600
Speaker 2: podcast and Joel. I had someone the other day say, Hey,

142
00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,559
Speaker 2: you were on that podcast with that guy in Joel

143
00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:26,600
Speaker 2: or something, and I was like, I really like that one.

144
00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,680
Speaker 2: And I was like, great, love it. So you know

145
00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,200
Speaker 2: one person listened to our podcast. That was that one

146
00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,400
Speaker 2: person for that episode, I think, yeah listened. So you're

147
00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,600
Speaker 2: welcome and hopefully you know one and a half will

148
00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,000
Speaker 2: listen to this one listen you're listening to this. I

149
00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:48,240
Speaker 2: love you all. I'm not, but you have an incredible

150
00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:52,000
Speaker 2: story and even to the point, like I didn't understand

151
00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,040
Speaker 2: quite the depths of it until you and I went

152
00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:59,320
Speaker 2: out for sushi together and you shared. You shared it

153
00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,600
Speaker 2: over sushi, and I was like, okay, wow, yes, God

154
00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,880
Speaker 2: has really gotten hold of you. And so I would

155
00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,000
Speaker 2: love for you to tell your story in all its detail,

156
00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:13,199
Speaker 2: in all its glory and glory to God, because it really,

157
00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:18,040
Speaker 2: I think shows the depth of where we where, where

158
00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,080
Speaker 2: the Lord has to stoop to to get us, even

159
00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:22,359
Speaker 2: as Christians.

160
00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:23,000
Speaker 1: Right.

161
00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:27,000
Speaker 2: I think that's an important aspect of your story, is

162
00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,280
Speaker 2: that you are someone who, like me, and like a

163
00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,280
Speaker 2: lot of people listening to this, love Jesus, followed Jesus

164
00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:36,720
Speaker 2: and yet still struggled, and so I think that's one

165
00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,680
Speaker 2: of the many important facets that we show. So Joe,

166
00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,079
Speaker 2: tell us your story, especially as it relates to sexual brokenness.

167
00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:48,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, thanks for bringing that up. God has been

168
00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,000
Speaker 1: so good just to say that at the beginning of

169
00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,840
Speaker 1: this conversation. The way that He has walked with me

170
00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:56,760
Speaker 1: through all of my life and the development of what

171
00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:02,160
Speaker 1: you'll hear is a pretty profound sexual addiction has been

172
00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,520
Speaker 1: nothing short of miraculous. And for me, it's the reason

173
00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,920
Speaker 1: why I will worship for all of eternity, is because

174
00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,400
Speaker 1: of the ways that He has interacted with my story

175
00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:15,400
Speaker 1: and brought the concept of His grace and love to

176
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,000
Speaker 1: bear on my story in such a profound way that

177
00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,840
Speaker 1: it literally shapes everything that I do today. You know,

178
00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,079
Speaker 1: one of the privileges that I have inside of our

179
00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,439
Speaker 1: community is that I get to do the majority of

180
00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,839
Speaker 1: the intakes. So this is people coming into our communities

181
00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:35,400
Speaker 1: to find healing. And the shocking thing and maybe that's

182
00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,160
Speaker 1: not shocking if you're listening to this and you have

183
00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,360
Speaker 1: your own story of sexual brokenness is the story is

184
00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:44,920
Speaker 1: almost always the same, which is kind of humorous because

185
00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,360
Speaker 1: most people who wrestle with addiction feel like they're the

186
00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,719
Speaker 1: only ones that have ever struggled and the way that

187
00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:54,440
Speaker 1: they have, And yet I hear the same story every

188
00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,160
Speaker 1: single time that sometime in their earlier years of development.

189
00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,240
Speaker 1: Usually it's between the ages of six and two twelve.

190
00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,760
Speaker 1: Based on thousands of intakes that I've done in the

191
00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:07,840
Speaker 1: last few years, something interacted inside of their story that

192
00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:12,280
Speaker 1: turned them in a path and a trajectory towards an

193
00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:16,920
Speaker 1: addiction to sexual material. And this can be exposure to

194
00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,120
Speaker 1: pornography or one in four men have been abused or molested,

195
00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:23,559
Speaker 1: one in three women have been abused or molested. Something

196
00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,560
Speaker 1: encountered their story that begin to shape the trajectory of

197
00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,400
Speaker 1: the rest of their lives. And then I think the

198
00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,280
Speaker 1: average age of people reaching out for support with mental

199
00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,480
Speaker 1: health is thirty seven. And so if you have the

200
00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:40,640
Speaker 1: average age of exposure to sexually explicit material is now

201
00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,600
Speaker 1: eight years old, and yet people don't reach out for

202
00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:50,000
Speaker 1: support until thirty seven, that's decades of compounding behavioral effect

203
00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,160
Speaker 1: on their life. And for me, yeah, I.

204
00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:55,400
Speaker 2: Just want to interject here and I'm sorry because I

205
00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:59,760
Speaker 2: think I don't want this to go without drawing attention

206
00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,800
Speaker 2: to it. So I think when you say one in

207
00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:07,800
Speaker 2: three women sexually abused, I think we think we're like, okay,

208
00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:12,800
Speaker 2: that makes sense, right, thirty three percent, right, one in

209
00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:18,080
Speaker 2: one in four men. I think that's the statistic that

210
00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:23,760
Speaker 2: not many people realize, right, Yeah, is twenty five percent, right, Like,

211
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,040
Speaker 2: I think you could have started off by seeing twenty

212
00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,400
Speaker 2: one in four women and people would have been like, yeah, wow,

213
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,240
Speaker 2: that's a lot, right, But it's it's higher for women. Yeah,

214
00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:34,160
Speaker 2: that's not surprising, but the fact that it's one in

215
00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,640
Speaker 2: four men, of which I am one, right, And so like,

216
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,520
Speaker 2: I think to your point, there's a lot more of

217
00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,960
Speaker 2: us out there than we realize. And so it's one

218
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:47,640
Speaker 2: of the reasons why I love what you're doing with

219
00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:49,680
Speaker 2: four two three, because you're drawing attention to that. So

220
00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,199
Speaker 2: I just I just wanted to interject there because I

221
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,760
Speaker 2: think that's an important stat to highlight.

222
00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there is that. You know, sexual addiction

223
00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,200
Speaker 1: is a man issue and women don't feel included. But

224
00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,520
Speaker 1: up to sixty percent of women are wrestling with pornography

225
00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,920
Speaker 1: and problematic sexual behaviors under the age of forty, and

226
00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,240
Speaker 1: so the majority of millennials and Gen Z and Gen

227
00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:16,920
Speaker 1: Alpha are wrestling with these issues of sexuality. I would say,

228
00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,240
Speaker 1: I think it's eighty four percent of men wrestle with

229
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,600
Speaker 1: problematic sexual behavior, and then I think the stats share

230
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,800
Speaker 1: that like eleven percent said prefer not to answer, So

231
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,960
Speaker 1: you throw that in the mix of welly, yeah, I

232
00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:31,080
Speaker 1: don't want to answer that question. You might as well

233
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,640
Speaker 1: just say yes, that's over ninety percent of our population

234
00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,560
Speaker 1: of men, in sixty percent forty to sixty percent of

235
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,000
Speaker 1: our population of women that are wrestling with this. And

236
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,480
Speaker 1: then you equate all of the spouses who are married

237
00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:49,360
Speaker 1: to husbands who are addicted, and you have basically our

238
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:55,040
Speaker 1: entire community wrestling with the impact and the problems of

239
00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,920
Speaker 1: sexual behavior. And so this is one of the this

240
00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,360
Speaker 1: is one of the uh the burners that we put

241
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,080
Speaker 1: all of our effort into is equipping the community to

242
00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,480
Speaker 1: have the conversation like we're having today that you are

243
00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:12,400
Speaker 1: not alone in your struggle. If you feel isolated, like

244
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,960
Speaker 1: no one understands that no one else is wrestling with this.

245
00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,479
Speaker 1: No one was abused, no one has spent three decades

246
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,240
Speaker 1: consumed by compulsive sexual behavior. I'm here to tell you

247
00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,200
Speaker 1: nine out of ten of your brothers that you know

248
00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,400
Speaker 1: are wrestling with the same issue. And probably that one

249
00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,240
Speaker 1: guy was either like the so sheltered homeschool kid who

250
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:35,920
Speaker 1: escaped from that problem or the guy who found recovery

251
00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,160
Speaker 1: and is cheering you on along the sidelines, saying, Ron, brother,

252
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:41,360
Speaker 1: we got this. You've got a place to find healing.

253
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,360
Speaker 1: And so that's kind of where my story begins. Is

254
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:47,720
Speaker 1: my story is no different than those who stepped into

255
00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,120
Speaker 1: our communities. Eight years old is when I found I

256
00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,280
Speaker 1: believe right, I'm trying to construct all these earlier memories,

257
00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,080
Speaker 1: but eight years old is when I found my first

258
00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:02,600
Speaker 1: pornographic material. And for me, it was in the midst

259
00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,760
Speaker 1: of family disruption. And this is one of the other

260
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,800
Speaker 1: things about the formation of addiction that I'm sure we'll

261
00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,120
Speaker 1: cover in our rabbit trails that will run down later.

262
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:15,840
Speaker 1: But how addiction forms inside of our systems is it

263
00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,840
Speaker 1: usually finds a moment inside of our story where there

264
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,120
Speaker 1: is a rupture, where there is a break, where there

265
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:26,400
Speaker 1: is a sadness, a neglect, a loneliness, an absence of

266
00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,800
Speaker 1: healthy relationship. And for me, at eight years old, my

267
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,680
Speaker 1: parents got divorced and it was messy, involved the church,

268
00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:38,400
Speaker 1: and it just splintered my reality as a little human

269
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,680
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to navigate through the complexities

270
00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,800
Speaker 1: of life where there is all of this feeling of

271
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:49,960
Speaker 1: confusion and anger and emotions that at eight years old,

272
00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,200
Speaker 1: I don't even know what to name them, and so

273
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,400
Speaker 1: I begin to just go numb and disassociate and right

274
00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:01,200
Speaker 1: smack dab in the middle of those moments, I, you know,

275
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,680
Speaker 1: in this old abandoned barn near our home. You know,

276
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:05,840
Speaker 1: we're eight year old kids in Brual, Oregon, Like, yeah,

277
00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,600
Speaker 1: we're gonna play wherever. You know. I find this old

278
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:12,240
Speaker 1: dusty magazine on top of the shelf, and for me,

279
00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,879
Speaker 1: it was the entrance point to discovering a world that

280
00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,679
Speaker 1: I could escape to. Not knowing what was happening. I'd

281
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,640
Speaker 1: had no language for addiction, no language for habit formation,

282
00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:26,680
Speaker 1: no language for dopamine rewards systems or delta foss B

283
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:31,120
Speaker 1: transcriptor build up in the brain, like, no understanding other

284
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:35,320
Speaker 1: than this moment is bringing peace and calm to a

285
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,560
Speaker 1: storm that had been building. Yeah, yeah, right, So, before

286
00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:44,200
Speaker 1: I had a cognition that what I was doing was wrong,

287
00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,560
Speaker 1: I begin to build the pathways of behavior and addiction

288
00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,840
Speaker 1: that would form the remainder of my developmental years. It

289
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:56,199
Speaker 1: would form the remainder of how I progressed as a

290
00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,080
Speaker 1: young man, learning what it meant to stand on my

291
00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,960
Speaker 1: own two feet. It shaped how I entered into marriage,

292
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,200
Speaker 1: and it shaped the man that I am today because

293
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,800
Speaker 1: of those early patterns of behavior that begin to be

294
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,800
Speaker 1: built at eight years old, right, And so those moments

295
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:20,320
Speaker 1: for me, I quickly learned that anytime that I feel frustration,

296
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:26,200
Speaker 1: anytime that I feel ambivalence inside of our family system,

297
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,240
Speaker 1: well I know where to go. I know where to

298
00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:33,399
Speaker 1: turn to to provide soothing and relief when there is pain.

299
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,040
Speaker 1: And so my go to pain relief mechanism was to

300
00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,439
Speaker 1: run to this barn, and run to this barn and

301
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,960
Speaker 1: find the magazine. And then pretty soon I brought the

302
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,639
Speaker 1: magazine closer so it was easier to access, and it

303
00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,399
Speaker 1: just became this place that I would go to to

304
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:53,040
Speaker 1: run from this. This was the foundation for all of

305
00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:57,080
Speaker 1: my elementary years in school where I consistently begin to

306
00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:01,320
Speaker 1: seek other forms of sexual stimulus. This was pre Internet,

307
00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:05,080
Speaker 1: by the way, I know this babyface might deceive you.

308
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:11,920
Speaker 1: This is pre Internet. And so you're seeking sexual arousing material.

309
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:16,359
Speaker 1: You're starting to fantasize and build constructs of what you

310
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,320
Speaker 1: think is going to bring you relief, and so into

311
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:23,000
Speaker 1: junior high and then puberty just poured gasoline on the

312
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:27,880
Speaker 1: flame and you begin to seek out situations with girls, right,

313
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,919
Speaker 1: that can bring kind of sexual arousal and the discovery

314
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:36,080
Speaker 1: of masturbation, masturbation habits right, that kind of bring those

315
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:40,199
Speaker 1: extra layers of dopamine and reward system loops. And it

316
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:44,600
Speaker 1: just built this consistent pattern all through those years. The

317
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:46,439
Speaker 1: other part of the story is that I grew up

318
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:51,600
Speaker 1: in a strong Christian home. I was a key centerpiece

319
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:53,560
Speaker 1: of our youth group. I was preaching and teaching at

320
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,920
Speaker 1: fifteen years old. I was leading worship regularly. I was

321
00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,000
Speaker 1: a part of a student ministry on campus, preaching, teach,

322
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:04,119
Speaker 1: doing worship for students weekly. And I looked I looked

323
00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,920
Speaker 1: really good. I know, I look really good today, but

324
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:13,480
Speaker 1: because obviously I mean, yeah, see fresh fade, fresh cut. Yeah.

325
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:15,480
Speaker 2: Go to the Veritas Daily dot com. You can watch

326
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:16,040
Speaker 2: the podcast.

327
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,080
Speaker 1: You can watch this handsome face talk about how I

328
00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:20,160
Speaker 1: almost destroyed my life.

329
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,159
Speaker 2: It's great, We'll be right back after this.

330
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,120
Speaker 1: And so, you know, underneath the surface, I was carrying

331
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,720
Speaker 1: the weight of this shame and this double life. And

332
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,560
Speaker 1: yet on the surface, man, I looked like the golden kid.

333
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,560
Speaker 1: All the high school moms like wanted their daughters to

334
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,720
Speaker 1: marry me. And you know, I was set up to

335
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,919
Speaker 1: do just great ministry with my life. I went to

336
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,879
Speaker 1: Bible College for pastoral leadership and music ministry, and I

337
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,800
Speaker 1: had this goal to do ministry for my life's purpose,

338
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:55,000
Speaker 1: to be in vocational ministry. And yet underneath the surface,

339
00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:00,960
Speaker 1: a strong, strong current, like an impassable force inside of

340
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,560
Speaker 1: my story was that I was still an eight year

341
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:07,640
Speaker 1: old kid wrestling with addictive patterns, and that if anyone knew,

342
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 1: if anyone ever found out, and I had never I

343
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,360
Speaker 1: had never been caught from eight years old into college

344
00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,359
Speaker 1: into marriage. I had never been caught once with my

345
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:21,560
Speaker 1: addiction to pornography through high school and into college. I

346
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,400
Speaker 1: mean this was almost a daily thing. The Internet came out,

347
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,320
Speaker 1: probably when I was thirteen twelve thirteen, where we had

348
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,200
Speaker 1: a computer in the home, and I quickly just learned

349
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:34,919
Speaker 1: how to wrap this process into daily life. And so

350
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 1: I learned how to live this double life where on

351
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 1: the surface I could be this role model Christian, this

352
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 1: golden boy, this preacher, this worship leader. I was leading

353
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:49,960
Speaker 1: recovery groups for lust and accountability while every day struggling

354
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 1: with my own addictive component, completely lying and living the

355
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:54,600
Speaker 1: double life.

356
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 2: When you say completely lying, was it were you saying, hey,

357
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,359
Speaker 2: I still struggle with lust from time to time, or

358
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 2: were you like, no, I've completely whipped this. I don't

359
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,760
Speaker 2: even you know, I see a really attractive woman and

360
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 2: I just see a daughter of the king, you know

361
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:09,120
Speaker 2: kind of deal.

362
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,879
Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely, Just you know. I think the thing about

363
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 1: addicts is that I believe that about myself because every

364
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 1: time that I would relapse, I would do the oath

365
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 1: with God and I would vow to never struggle again.

366
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 1: And I believed that from that moment forward, I was

367
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 1: now walking in renewed righteousness, that the Spirit had lifted

368
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 1: me and regenerated me fully to where I was no

369
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,640
Speaker 1: longer ever going to struggle again. And so I would

370
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:42,119
Speaker 1: go into those meetings trying to forcefully self believe that

371
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,879
Speaker 1: I was the person that I wanted to be. And

372
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 1: so I would say, yeah, when I see that, I

373
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,159
Speaker 1: bounce my eyes. And you know, you've got to have accountability,

374
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,239
Speaker 1: and you got to, you know, confess, and you've got

375
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 1: to bring things into the light so that they can

376
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 1: become a light for others, brothers. And yet I never

377
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,679
Speaker 1: confessed any of those previous years of struggle. I did

378
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 1: not lead from my limp. I led from a look,

379
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 1: how good I can curate this vision for you to

380
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 1: follow after me? Yeah, and it soothed me right. It

381
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:17,719
Speaker 1: made me feel like I'm turning my weakness into into

382
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 1: a into a medal, like a shiny trophy for my

383
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,360
Speaker 1: stamp of self approval. Like, yeah, I struggle, but look

384
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,679
Speaker 1: how many guys I'm starting to help. In my younger years,

385
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 1: I actually helped my pastor at like sixteen craft a

386
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 1: message on sexual purity because I was like the purity

387
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:40,359
Speaker 1: guy while I was fully entrenched in lustful imagination and

388
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: pornography and masturbation and just sexual behavior. Talk about hypocrisy.

389
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 1: And even at that, even at that age, like I

390
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 1: had no recollection of what that was doing to my soul,

391
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 1: of being completely torn apart the cognitive dissonance, the mental frustration,

392
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 1: the bodily frustration that I was carrying in those moments

393
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 1: was wreaking havoc on my identity formation that on the

394
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 1: outside I so longed so long, with every part of

395
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,199
Speaker 1: me weeping, crying tears, pleading with God for me to

396
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 1: be reformed and reshaped into His image, And yet I

397
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: knew that hours later I was going to be torn

398
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 1: back into my addictive pattern of behavior, and it just

399
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 1: left me desperate and destitute and hollow, where I've felt

400
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 1: like I had to carry the weight of this Christian

401
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 1: facade to prove to myself, to prove to God, and

402
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 1: to prove to others that I wasn't this deplorable, despicable,

403
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 1: destitute human that I felt like I was underneath the surface.

404
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: And so that's really you know, if that paints have

405
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,640
Speaker 1: brought enough picture for you of where I was in

406
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 1: those spaces, there there was no end to this sense

407
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,399
Speaker 1: of hopelessness that I felt. And yet I felt feverish

408
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 1: in my attempt to create a life that looked good

409
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 1: on the outside and get that affirmation and get that

410
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 1: achievement that I longed for, you know, kind of moving.

411
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 2: Into Yeah, and I think this should sound familiar, right

412
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 2: in the sense of what whatever you're struggling with, whether

413
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 2: it's porn, whether it's alcohol, whether it's food, whether it's work,

414
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:30,239
Speaker 2: whether whatever it is, right, what you just described is

415
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 2: a universal experience, yea, even though it is personal, right,

416
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 2: And and so that's not to minimize it's to say, guys, like,

417
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 2: doesn't you know you should have I was shaking my head. Yes,

418
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 2: it's like man that that Like I would get drunk

419
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 2: and then I would vow I'm not I'm good, I'm

420
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 2: not gonna do it again, like lord, I'm renewing, like

421
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 2: just that that aspect of it, right, Like, you know,

422
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 2: I've tried to explain to people the cognitive dissonance, and

423
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 2: I think that's that's that's one of the one of

424
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 2: the places where it really lies. Lies both you know,

425
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 2: lays there and lies like lies to you, right, is

426
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 2: in what you just said. So I appreciate that. So, yeah,

427
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 2: you were going to kind of then go on into

428
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 2: more so your adulthood.

429
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, moving into college, you know, I went to Bible

430
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: College for a few years and then ended up joining

431
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,439
Speaker 1: a record label and traveled internationally for about six years,

432
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: touring full time with a Christian artist and getting to

433
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: do more Christian ministry, appreaching teaching.

434
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 2: Vocal band.

435
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was the center tenor for the Gay through

436
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 1: Vocal band. That's that's a lie. It's weird to lie

437
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: on the Veritas network. Feels very hypocritical. But that'll be

438
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: the last lie, probably not. But yeah, so moving into that,

439
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 1: you know, I just I stepped up the Christian role

440
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: model ministry and I pursued it even harder, and all

441
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: of a sudden, the weight of my Christian ministry was

442
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: now national, and I was signing people's you know, posters

443
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 1: in the mall and CDs if anyone knows what a

444
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: CD is back in the day, signing CDs, and it

445
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: just it just poured gasoline on the shame because here

446
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: I'm on a bigger stage, preaching a bigger message and

447
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 1: doing more ministry. And yet this double life is growing,

448
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: and I'm growing in age too, and I'm in my

449
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: twenties and I meet this this beautiful young gal, Rachel,

450
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 1: my current wife and only wife. It's a weird way

451
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: to say current, right, my only wife, and you know,

452
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: I fall in love with her and I we're pursuing

453
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: this relationship together and we have these deep conversations. And

454
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 1: yet here is this woman who has saved herself for marriage.

455
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: She doesn't even know what the concept of pornography is.

456
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: And so my initial instinct is to lie to her

457
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,239
Speaker 1: and going into premarital and we did primarital counseling and

458
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: just fully lived that lie of Yeah. Yeah, it was

459
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 1: a struggle way way way back in the day. But

460
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 1: I'm I've got it under control as of seventeen hours ago.

461
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: I've got it under control. Yeah, and just fully laid

462
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 1: that lie before her. And she was innocent and wanted

463
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: to believe that everything that she saw on the surface,

464
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 1: which was a lot, was true, and that I was

465
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: a gifted liar and a gifted presenter of a false reality.

466
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: And so we got married and she still had no

467
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: clue that there was ever a struggle with pornography. And

468
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: I think, like a lot of guys that may be

469
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: listening to this, they think that marriage will fix their addiction.

470
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 1: If I just had this counterpart to bring me more accountability,

471
00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: someone to truly love me, right, I know that I

472
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: want to be loved, and this person is going to

473
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: fulfill me my loneliness, my desire for intimacy. They're gonna

474
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: fulfill me.

475
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 2: Right if I had if I had access to sex

476
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 2: whenever I wanted.

477
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: It, Yes, that's the more base yes notion. Right, if

478
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: it was, it's just a sex problem. And now now

479
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: she'll fulfill my need for sex, and this pornography problem

480
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: won't ever exist. And so marriage fixed it for a

481
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: few months where there was this, you know, this heightened

482
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: ecstasy of relationship and relational connection and intimacy with sex,

483
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: and it's like, okay, like this is the longest I've

484
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 1: gone in eighteen years. Like I think, I think this

485
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: is it. This fixed it. And then when life settles

486
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: back in and you know, John, I hope Rachel never

487
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: listens to this. But she's not perfect, and she did

488
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: not fill every single void and broken it attachment and

489
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: rupture and wounding and need in my own broken system.

490
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: And so pain came back into the equation and rupture

491
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: and frustration and loneliness and disconnection and all of those

492
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 1: old wounds that existed at eight years old begin to

493
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: resurface inside of our marriage, and there was conflict. And

494
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: for her, she didn't know what the conflict was, where

495
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: it was coming from. Right for her, she's like, why

496
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: is this man who seems to love God and do

497
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: this ministry so difficult to confront about taking out the garbage.

498
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: I remember one of our earliest fights was like, you know,

499
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: six months into marriage, and it was about me not

500
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 1: taking out the garbage while she had gone to the store.

501
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: The reasons was was because I had been looking at

502
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,239
Speaker 1: pornography while she was at the store and didn't have

503
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: time to do the request, and when she brought it up,

504
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: it just opened up this full defense mechanism of you

505
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,719
Speaker 1: can't see this, you can't come near this, And so

506
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: I would either escalate and anger to shut her down

507
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: and gaslight her and make her the problem, or if

508
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: she became too investigative, then I would shut down and

509
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: withdraw and with whole affection and give her the silence.

510
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: Would just manipulate, emotionally, manipulate to protect myself.

511
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 2: Right.

512
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: It's it's so easy for us to do with those

513
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: with those relationships that are closest to us, because for her,

514
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 1: she desperately wanted to be an intimacy and connection. But

515
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: for me, I did not know how to be intimate

516
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: because all of my intimacy had been geared towards and

517
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: funneled towards the use of pornography. I had rewired my

518
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: intimacy template to connect with the digital screen, to connect

519
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: with the broken attachments that I got through those fantasy connections.

520
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: And it does it rewires the way that our brains

521
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: and our bodies respond to need, and so then need

522
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: that I felt from Rachel, I was literally near biologically

523
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: and physiologically unable to attach to her in intimacy because

524
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: of my mouth formed attachment to pornography through those decades

525
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 1: of use. And so that poor woman, man, it just

526
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 1: causes me so much regret for those moments in years

527
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: of seeking forgiveness for that, but the years I made

528
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: her feel crazy that she was she was the problem,

529
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: and that anything that came up was her fault. And

530
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: you know, by the grace of God, and I'll say

531
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: that at the beginning of this next section, by the

532
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: grace of God, our story took a dramatic turn. Right

533
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: a pastor came to our church. We were living in Dallas, Texas,

534
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: where our band had moved to be more essentially located.

535
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: He came and he shared a message that I had

536
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 1: never heard before. And you know, remember I had been

537
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: through Bible College, like I had preached, like I knew

538
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: the word. And yet the message that he preached was

539
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: on walking in the light while having an addiction to pornography.

540
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: And it was the first time, the first time that

541
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 1: I had ever heard a pastor on a stage talk

542
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: about having to wrestle with and process through their own addiction.

543
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: And his message was not one of like the purity culture,

544
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,239
Speaker 1: message of like put it to death. Run away like

545
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: you're tainted, you're broken, like it was. One of the

546
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: way towards healing is to walk in the light, to

547
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 1: allow yourself to be fully known, so that you can

548
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: be fully loved. And I remember sitting in this audience.

549
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: I remember the very seat that I was sitting in,

550
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: and the weight and the heaviness on my chest that

551
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: I will equate to the Holy Spirit's conviction. And it

552
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: was just this raw moment of realizing that I desperately

553
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: wanted to be loved. I desperately needed to be known,

554
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: and needed to be loved in the midst of being known.

555
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: And yet my entire life, I had feared that if

556
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: I let people know me, that I would be deemed

557
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: unworthy of love. That if I somehow in my broken mindset,

558
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: believe that if God, if I confessed that if God

559
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: saw me, that he would reject me, that he would

560
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,320
Speaker 1: remove my ministry, that he would tear from me even

561
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: the grace offered through salvation. Right, I'm so warped from

562
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 1: this shame that has been compounded. If my wife finds out,

563
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 1: she will divorce me, I will be left without purpose

564
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 1: and without direction, without connection. But the pain of not

565
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 1: being loved outweighed that deep desire to protect my secret,

566
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 1: and so I confessed to my wife. We'd been married

567
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 1: just under two years, eighteen months or so, and a

568
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 1: messy just drip disclosure, dumping disclosure of Hey, I need

569
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: to talk to you. This is something that I have

570
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 1: carried my entire life. I have struggled with this almost

571
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: on a daily basis. I don't know how to stop,

572
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: and I'm I'm terrified because I can't stop, and I

573
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: don't know what to do for her. I probably one

574
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: of the most painful things is that she was so

575
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 1: sheltered and innocent that I had to describe to her

576
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: what pornography actually was because she didn't know the confines

577
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: of it, which was devastating to her need this to say,

578
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: that moment was one of the most traumatic moments for

579
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,720
Speaker 1: her of just realizing that there was there was pain

580
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: inside of my life that had caused this addictive process.

581
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,359
Speaker 1: One of the things it did for her was it

582
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 1: helped her feel like she was no longer crazy, because

583
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 1: I had been making her feel like a crazy person

584
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: for our entire marriage, and she suddenly understood why is

585
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: so difficult to connect to? Why does intimacy and relationship

586
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: feel so difficult at times, like what is going on

587
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: underneath the surface. The Holy Spirit was prompting her our

588
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: entire marriage that something was wrong underneath the surface, but

589
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: I had protected it, so now it was we were

590
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,839
Speaker 1: in this together. And then this is kind of why

591
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,479
Speaker 1: we love the mission of four two three is because

592
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: it creates a safe place for people to go when

593
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: they are wrestling with these unwanted behaviors. For us, we

594
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 1: did not find a safe community to start repair work.

595
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 1: We did not find a place to do recovery. And

596
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 1: I was on the staff at a church at this point.

597
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: I was still in the record label band, traveling like

598
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 1: I had an image to protect, Like I couldn't become

599
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 1: the guy who was struggling with porn This was what

600
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: twelve years ago, and there wasn't that many recovery resources

601
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: out there for sexual addiction as there are today. There's

602
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: plenty of great resources today, but back then, there was

603
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: no safe community for us to go to. I had

604
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 1: casually kind of tried to get a feeler for my

605
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: conversation with the church of like, hey, what if someone

606
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 1: on staff was struggling with pornography? Some other guy for

607
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 1: a friend, right, And kind of the resounding feeling was, man,

608
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: if someone struggling with pornography, they're fired immediately. We got

609
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 1: to get sin out of the camp. And so for me,

610
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: it was this blaring message of like, hey, hide your stuff,

611
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: do your best to pretend and continue to do the

612
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: work that God has set before you.

613
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 2: And this is and and and this is why I've

614
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 2: become so passionate right about like, this is what I

615
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 2: knew and what I saw that. I was like, I

616
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 2: can't talk about my alcohol struggle. I know what the

617
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 2: church does to people like me. I'm I was on

618
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 2: staff at church. Like when when when when really the

619
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 2: the the severe slide period started to take over? Right,

620
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,919
Speaker 2: I was like, and man, if only I was well.

621
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 2: And by the way, this isn't against my church specifically, right,

622
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 2: because my elders wrapped their arms around me and my wife, right,

623
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 2: But I'm just saying in general, I saw what the

624
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 2: church did, right, the church, the global or maybe the

625
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,280
Speaker 2: Western church, right, if you want to get even more specific,

626
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 2: I know what they do to people like us, right.

627
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,479
Speaker 2: And so I didn't go to my elders, I didn't

628
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 2: go to my pastor, I didn't go to some of

629
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 2: the resources that they had, because I'm like, I know

630
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 2: what will happen. And even if that, even if those

631
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 2: elders and my elders and my church is good about it,

632
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 2: I know what other people will think and I know

633
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 2: what they will do.

634
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 1: Ah. Absolutely, And that's that's one of the things that

635
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 1: we're trying to change. And I think you are too.

636
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 1: That's why you know, partnering with you and walking with

637
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,359
Speaker 1: you is huge because the world is in desperate need

638
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 1: of help. And when we only approach recovery from the

639
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 1: lens of just try harder, of just pursue discipleship. Hey,

640
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: have you read your Bible lately? John, then you wouldn't

641
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: struggle anymore. Hey have you prayed to God about that?

642
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: It's like, No, in twenty five years of struggling, I

643
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,919
Speaker 1: have never thought to pray to God about this. Well,

644
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 1: thank you for letting me know about that. Right, there

645
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: was deeper work that needed to be done. There was

646
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: entire systems of early childhood attachment that needed to be

647
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 1: reframed and restored in my physiological response to this problem.

648
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: And the culture that we were met with was that

649
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 1: same culture of if you truly love Jesus, then you

650
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,280
Speaker 1: wouldn't be struggling. So you must not know Jesus because

651
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 1: you are struggling with addiction. And so that caused us

652
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: to hide. And so my wife and I now carried

653
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: the secret together, and she entered the world where it

654
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: was like, oh, now I'm your secrecy partner, and now

655
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 1: it's her job to make sure that I never struggle again, right,

656
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,280
Speaker 1: because now she is carrying the weight of my addiction

657
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: on her s, because now that she knows, she's responsible

658
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: to protect me from myself if I'm an addict, like

659
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 1: uncontrollably going towards these compulsive behaviors. It's not her job

660
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 1: as my secrecy partner to carry the weight for me,

661
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: a tremendous burden that she is never meant to carry.

662
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 1: She can be my support and encourager and be my helper,

663
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 1: but she is never responsible from my behaviors, and I

664
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 1: think that's the role that she carried. I can let

665
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 1: her share her own story, she's shared in a couple

666
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 1: different places. I won't step on her experience too much.

667
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,959
Speaker 1: And so now here we are walking hand in hand

668
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what does it mean that Joel

669
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 1: is an addict to pornography and sexual experience, and so

670
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: we do what most people do, and this is probably

671
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: commensurrate across the board where we locked up the iPads,

672
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 1: we blocked the TV, we blocked the computers, removed my

673
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 1: access points so that my compulsivity wouldn't just be grabbing

674
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 1: the first device that I could find to find pornography.

675
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 1: And it worked for a season. The white knuckled sobriety

676
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 1: that everyone is familiar with worked for a season. And

677
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 1: I think for my wife, who's type A, we can

678
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:24,839
Speaker 1: say in loving ways like controlling of environment. She wants

679
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: to make things orderly and ideal and perfect. She's like, okay,

680
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 1: we found the solution. Like Joel just doesn't get to

681
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:36,720
Speaker 1: do anything fun, and we're gonna be okay. We never

682
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 1: have to share this with anyone. We can maintain the facade,

683
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 1: the identity that we are this perfect Christian couple. We

684
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: can still go doom in issia. We can preach, you

685
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 1: can do worship, you can run these groups and this

686
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 1: will be great. We never have to be known in

687
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:59,399
Speaker 1: our sin. We can live with isolation of these behaviors

688
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: and will get by just fine. Now, if you do

689
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: any formal work with addiction recovery and understanding compulsivity. You're

690
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 1: laughing right now as you listen to this podcast, because

691
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 1: you will know that that type of reparative work doesn't

692
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 1: repair anything. It just compresses, It compresses the cycle underneath

693
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,320
Speaker 1: the surface. And so here I am at that point.

694
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 1: I'm twenty five at this point, So nearly twenty years,

695
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 1: nearly two decades of a building compulsive system in my brain,

696
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 1: in my nervous system, the way that I am wired

697
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:41,240
Speaker 1: to respond to stress. I'm twenty five, newly married, trying

698
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 1: to make a career, trying to provide for a family,

699
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 1: first time really owning and living in an apartment, like

700
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 1: carrying the weight of adult life and my natural proclivity

701
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 1: to cope for behaviors, to use pornography and masturbate, and

702
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 1: all the and all of this pressure of Christian life,

703
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,760
Speaker 1: all of this double life narrative that has been built

704
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: over twenty years of role model Christian work, ministry work,

705
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:14,800
Speaker 1: this this shame compounding factors in my story suddenly feel

706
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 1: the full weight of having to carry that without my

707
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 1: coping mechanism, and so I'm carrying all of this stress,

708
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: all of this frustration with a wife who low the

709
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: Lord love her, is doing her best to try to

710
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 1: help me process this, but is doing it from a

711
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: controlling way, which is the only way that we know

712
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 1: how to do that. And so here I am a

713
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 1: two decade compulsive addict inside of a pressurized steel chamber

714
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: of white knuckled sobriety, trying to bear the weight of

715
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: a two decades of compulsive build up. How do you

716
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 1: think that that turned out? Oh?

717
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 2: I mean yeah, Jun's forever and you never went back,

718
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 2: and you had you know, three kids, and you're on

719
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 2: and fourth. Then everything is perfect.

720
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 1: And that's the end of my story. Thank you for

721
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 1: having me here today, John. So that's the way to

722
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 1: do that is to just lock it up, never talk

723
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 1: about it again. Yes, I wish that was the reality.

724
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 1: Maybe I do, maybe I don't. But for us, that

725
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 1: was just the beginning of our recovery journey.

726
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 2: Can I can I point that out? Yeah, because I

727
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,839
Speaker 2: think for people who are listening to this, and I'm

728
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 2: not saying, like, listen, there are some people right who,

729
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 2: whether alcohol or pornography, that that minister comes and they

730
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 2: are convicted from the Holy Spirit and and like either

731
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 2: it's miraculous or whatever, Like I know those people, right,

732
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,360
Speaker 2: and I celebrate those stories. But I think for so

733
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 2: many of us, what you're about to get into is

734
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 2: the reality, right, is where there's conviction, where there's steps

735
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:54,919
Speaker 2: that are taken, and yet and when we don't get

736
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 2: to the root, things continue to fester. And it's not

737
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 2: just you know, I listen, if you are struggling, like

738
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 2: I'm going to meet a guy later today, right, alcoholic, right,

739
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,839
Speaker 2: Like he's drunk by ten every morning. It is going

740
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 2: to be a good thing. The day that he pours

741
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 2: out all of his liquor, Like, I'll be like, I

742
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 2: will celebrate that. So the day you put coming in

743
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 2: eyes on your computer, that's good and and I celebrate that, right.

744
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 2: But if that person and if you don't keep going

745
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 2: and say, okay, why was I doing that?

746
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: Right?

747
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 2: What were those things that led there? I'm just telling

748
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 2: you it's not going to be enough, right, And I

749
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 2: think you know that's what you're saying. And then you

750
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,320
Speaker 2: know the second phase of your story is going to

751
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 2: make money. We'll be right back after this.

752
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 1: Thank you for that disclaimer and that, yeah, that doesn't

753
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,240
Speaker 1: disparage people from trying to do that work to protect

754
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 1: and to you know, remove the behavior. I think the

755
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: key for us is that we felt like it was

756
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: not a safe place to be known. And when things

757
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 1: don't come into the light, when things are left into secrecy,

758
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: this is where sin breeds in the darkness. This is

759
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: where behaviors begin to catch fire. Is when you feel

760
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:14,919
Speaker 1: like it is too shameful for you to be known,

761
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 1: and so you better fix yourself before you come into

762
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 1: the community with all of us other perfect people. And

763
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 1: so that was a huge thing for me is it

764
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 1: just didn't feel like a safe place to wrestle with

765
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 1: this with other people where I could confess and be

766
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: known and begin to work on those things that were

767
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 1: underneath the surface that will find out are super important

768
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 1: for you to do to find freedom from addiction. So

769
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 1: a few months after this, white knuckled attempt at controlling

770
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:45,359
Speaker 1: behavior and healing, which had some effect right like it

771
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:50,360
Speaker 1: reduced some behaviors and brought a sense of relief. But

772
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: the compulsivity inside of me, my addiction level was so

773
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 1: high that my brain, my body, my response to stress

774
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: found new outlet for my addiction. For me, I had

775
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: gone what I did for exercise was I rode my

776
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 1: bike and it was a way that I exercised, and

777
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: so every morning I'd go out, ride my route, come back,

778
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 1: and just go about my day. But inside of this

779
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 1: pressurized control system, I went for a ride and felt

780
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 1: a minor moment of arousal. And it was this moment

781
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 1: where my brain just went like it almost could feel

782
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 1: this gasp inside of my brain, inside of this compulsive

783
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 1: system that really just took over my body's response in

784
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 1: my brain, and my nervous system said, hey, this is

785
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,800
Speaker 1: where you can get your drug. You're not actually doing anything,

786
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 1: and this is where the lies of an addict come

787
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 1: in so strong. Yes, you're not actually doing anything. This

788
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 1: is just happening to you. You're riding your bike, you're

789
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 1: becoming aroused, you're getting that dopamine flood. I mean I

790
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 1: can literally remember the feeling coursing across that pathway in

791
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: my brain of that dopamine surge when I got that hit.

792
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 1: And so it was Okay, I'm not trying to do this,

793
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 1: I'm just going for a ride. And this is all

794
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 1: addict language for the self lies that we tell ourselves.

795
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 1: And so I would go riding on my bike and

796
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 1: become aroused and then allow myself to be a little

797
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 1: bit exposed and get that extra adrenaline and that extra hit,

798
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 1: and internally, I'm telling myself, one, you're an idiot, like,

799
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:22,919
Speaker 1: what the eff are you doing right? You're doing this

800
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 1: stupid behavior. You know, the shame, the condemnation, and then

801
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 1: the lies that were underneath the surface of Hey, but

802
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 1: you're not actually doing anything right. You're not hurting anyone,

803
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: you're not approaching it. You're just you're just doing this

804
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: and it's giving you that relief that you need right.

805
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 1: You need to cope, you need to soothe, and this

806
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 1: is just happening to you almost those lies that come

807
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 1: in so strong, unbknownst to me. A few weeks into that,

808
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: a few times of doing that, there's a policeman waiting

809
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 1: on that route that I had ridden every day, and

810
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 1: he says, hey, you match the description of someone called in.

811
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 1: What you are doing is illegal, and you are under

812
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 1: arrest for indecent exposure. And in that moment, the sum

813
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 1: of all of those choices, all of those lies, all

814
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,319
Speaker 1: of those shame narratives, all of those those internal little

815
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: lies that I would tell myself to make sense of

816
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:18,799
Speaker 1: that moment came crashing down to reality, and I found

817
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: myself being booked and held for the misdemeanor of indecent

818
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 1: exposure while on staff at a church, while in full

819
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: time a tenant ministry, while cultivating a new marriage, while

820
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: struggling and trying to follow Jesus. I found myself being

821
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: arrested for you know, this, this behavior that had found

822
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:42,839
Speaker 1: myself since eight years old, The results of a compulsive

823
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 1: behavior that began at eight years old, landed me in

824
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 1: prison or in jail almost twenty years later. For me,

825
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: this is really the turning point in my story of

826
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 1: finding recovery and really encountering the grace of God in

827
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 1: a way that I can scarcely even detail for you

828
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 1: this morning because of its profound impact in my life.

829
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:09,279
Speaker 1: I was literally sitting in a holding cell in the

830
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:13,400
Speaker 1: jumpsuit like with the crocs, like, just completely ripped of

831
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:17,840
Speaker 1: all sense of identity. All I had was my shame

832
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 1: just dripping from me, with worry and frustration, knowing that

833
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 1: outside of those walls, my world is crumbling. I don't

834
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 1: even know the impact of what it means to be

835
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 1: arrested for a decent exposure, but I know it is

836
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,280
Speaker 1: not going to be good with my wife, with my church,

837
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 1: with my ministry, with my public profile like this is

838
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,720
Speaker 1: I know that outside of those walls is chaos and death.

839
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 1: And so I'm sitting in the midst of that anxiety

840
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 1: and that stress and that fatigue in my system, not

841
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:53,240
Speaker 1: even sure where to go. And I hear that still,

842
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 1: gentle voice that I had learned, that I had learned

843
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 1: as a child, and it was the voice of God,

844
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 1: the Father. And it was not the voice that I

845
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 1: had learned to maybe expect of. How dare you defame

846
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 1: the Gospel? And your Christian witness has been ruined and

847
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 1: you're responsible for thousands and tens of thousands that will

848
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 1: never follow me because of what you did, all those

849
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: lies from the enemy that I had believed would come

850
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 1: true if I was if I failed. But what I

851
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: heard in that moment was the gentle, still whisper of

852
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 1: the Father, closer to me than I can possibly even

853
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 1: fathom or describe or even mentally picture today, the voice

854
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 1: of a Father who was filled with joy and love

855
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 1: and delight and sorrow and sadness for my pain and

856
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 1: for the pain that I had caused others. Like in

857
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:51,920
Speaker 1: my sin, I had hurt other people and there was

858
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 1: sadness for that, but his expression towards me was one

859
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:59,400
Speaker 1: of joy and delight that I could finally see him

860
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 1: through my shame, Because my shame, my double life, my addiction,

861
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:09,479
Speaker 1: had kept me from seeing that in my mess, God

862
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:12,800
Speaker 1: was closer to me than I could possibly fathom, pleading

863
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 1: with me that I would simply turn to him, see

864
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 1: his love and be transformed in my heart and in

865
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 1: my desires. But my shame kept me from seeing that

866
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 1: He was close. You know, I think of Hm, I

867
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,520
Speaker 1: think of the story of the prodigal Son, and you know,

868
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,879
Speaker 1: we always cheer because while the sun was far off

869
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,360
Speaker 1: and was in his mess an addiction, he comes to

870
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 1: the realization and he turns around and he runs back,

871
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 1: and the Father is running to meet him when he's

872
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 1: coming out of his addiction. But what I realized in

873
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 1: my story is that God was with me in that

874
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: pig stye right, He was walking with me in the mud.

875
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,399
Speaker 1: He was in the mess with me, saying, brother, this

876
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 1: is why I came. This is why I placed my

877
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 1: life life on the cross, is for me to walk

878
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 1: with you in your mess. While we were sinning, Christ

879
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,719
Speaker 1: died for us. And so in that moment of my

880
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 1: deepest sin, I had the revelation through the Holy Spirit

881
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 1: that he had been with me from eight years old

882
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:20,640
Speaker 1: and before that he had seen the woundings inside of

883
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 1: my family situation, that he had seen me discover that pornography,

884
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 1: that he had seen me cultivate this addiction, and that

885
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 1: his message from the very beginning was I am with you,

886
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 1: I see you, I know you, I love you. Turn

887
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 1: to me, see me, walk with me. Allow my presence,

888
00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 1: my love, to be the thing that brings you that

889
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 1: relief that you need. And yet, because of shame, because

890
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 1: of the lack of community, because of the lack of

891
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 1: a place to be fully known, I was left in

892
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 1: my shame, which removed me from relationship with God and others,

893
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 1: and created the circumstance that left me sitting in a

894
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: jail cell at twenty five years old, wrestling with the

895
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 1: impacts of my compulsive sexual behavior. And in that moment,

896
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:13,720
Speaker 1: that still clear voice of God broke through my shame

897
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 1: and let me know that I was not alone, and

898
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 1: that there was now no darkness that he could not invade,

899
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 1: that his light of being fully known and realizing that

900
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 1: I was fully loved. In that moment it begin to

901
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 1: transform my heart, my mind, and my experience of who

902
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 1: I was. And so it was a weird juxtaposition of

903
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 1: the crushing weight of shame and the numbness of escalation

904
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 1: of all these things outside of the story, and the

905
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 1: true peace that comes from knowing that you are loved

906
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 1: by God fully, that in him you are a beloved

907
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:49,479
Speaker 1: son of God. While I was sitting in a jail

908
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: cell as the result of my sinful behaviors, I am deeply,

909
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: dearly and fully known by the God of the universe,

910
00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 1: and that He delights to walk with me moving forward.

911
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 1: And so that for me is the beginning of my

912
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:06,839
Speaker 1: new life. I might even call it selvific. It probably

913
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:11,799
Speaker 1: doesn't line up theologically, but man, the moment of realizing

914
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 1: God's overwhelming, never ending grace while I'm in the depths

915
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 1: of my sin, That's the reason why I will I

916
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:24,759
Speaker 1: will worship for all eternity. It is because of coming

917
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 1: to that realization.

918
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 2: And so what what did life look like then from

919
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:34,920
Speaker 2: that point right? I mean, you had to call your wife,

920
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 2: did you lose your job? Like? What did it actually

921
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:40,759
Speaker 2: look like? And then what did you do to get

922
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 2: to the root of why.

923
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:48,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, chaos, destruction, trauma was the was the follow

924
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 1: from that. My wife had to pick me up middle

925
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:54,799
Speaker 1: of the night, bail me out my stories on new

926
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:57,440
Speaker 1: the news cycle through the local news here in Dallas,

927
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:00,879
Speaker 1: and it was just this moment of chaos. We went

928
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 1: back to being evicted from our apartment, we had to

929
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:06,879
Speaker 1: move in with my brother, and just the crumbling of

930
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 1: all of these relationships with work. The call from the

931
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:12,920
Speaker 1: church that I was on staff at was don't ever

932
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 1: come back on the property, goodbye, hang up, never come back.

933
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 1: Resigned from the band that I was a part of,

934
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: and was literally stripped to nothing, And so we moved

935
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,400
Speaker 1: back to Portland, Oregon, which is where I found four

936
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 1: two three. It's where four two three was founded. It

937
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:31,279
Speaker 1: was founded under John Mark Comer at a Jesus church

938
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:34,400
Speaker 1: back in the day with Da've scriven our founder to

939
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:38,400
Speaker 1: be a place to walk with the sexually broken, to

940
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 1: not only heal in sobriety right because sobriety matters, we'll

941
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 1: talk about that, but to be transformed in your heart

942
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 1: in those places that have curated this addictive pattern and

943
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 1: behavior in your life. And so every week instead of

944
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 1: a four two three group I would come into this

945
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 1: place and first be fully known. Right. This is a

946
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 1: place of radical confession. This is a place for all

947
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:07,400
Speaker 1: of those deep woundings back to five, six, seven, eight

948
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:10,520
Speaker 1: years old to be unpacked inside of a room with

949
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 1: other brothers who are going to witness you. We call

950
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 1: these groups witnessing communities, for you to be fully witnessed

951
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 1: in your story, to make sense of those patterns of

952
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 1: woundings that have been curated since eight years old, to

953
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 1: make sense of the detachment from a father figure who

954
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 1: is absent in my story relationally and emotionally, to make

955
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 1: sense of the trauma of the divorce, and to heal

956
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 1: the relationship with my mom. And all of those things

957
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 1: were unpacked inside of this community. So I was not

958
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:45,640
Speaker 1: only analyzing okay in my addiction A plus B equal C.

959
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 1: Let's change A and no longer struggle with the patterns

960
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 1: of addiction and begin to reform my behaviors, but truly

961
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:57,240
Speaker 1: begins to make sense of the story that had come

962
00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 1: to define my life. So that the old Warner King

963
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:05,480
Speaker 1: struggles with sexual addiction because of these compounding factors, and

964
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:08,640
Speaker 1: through years of being in fourteen three, begin to heal

965
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 1: that story. At eight years old, and nine years old,

966
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:15,880
Speaker 1: and eleven and thirteen and seventeen, and reframe and reshape

967
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 1: my desires and my ability to attach to intimacy through

968
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:23,400
Speaker 1: this witnessing community, to be reformed into the man I

969
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 1: am now today who's been sober, who has restored intimacy

970
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 1: with my wife, who now has almost four kids as

971
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 1: a result of renewed intimacy with God and others. And

972
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:38,240
Speaker 1: now I get to walk alongside my wife who walked

973
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 1: with me through that trauma as we help men and

974
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:45,160
Speaker 1: women and couples heal from the impacts of their sexual

975
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 1: brokenness all over the world. And so, if you remember

976
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:52,040
Speaker 1: when I started this section of the story, it's by

977
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 1: the grace of God that He allowed me to be

978
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:57,920
Speaker 1: broken enough to finally come in contact with His grace

979
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 1: and to be restory and restored and to the man

980
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:05,120
Speaker 1: that He needs me to be for this ministry, to

981
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 1: walk with other men and women in their healing journeys.

982
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's been a it's been a wild journey.

983
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 1: But God is good. Brother. God has been so good

984
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 1: to us in our story.

985
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:20,320
Speaker 2: Oh so so good. I mean, I feel like we

986
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:23,760
Speaker 2: could talk for another like two hours, But let me

987
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:26,040
Speaker 2: ask you this. You know, I talk about trauma. You

988
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:29,120
Speaker 2: talk about trauma, you talk about you know, those things

989
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 2: that happen to us that lead us here. You know,

990
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 2: I get pushbacks sometimes from people who say, like, man,

991
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:39,280
Speaker 2: you're just like you know, in the end, you made

992
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:42,720
Speaker 2: your decisions, you made your bed. You know, sin is sin.

993
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 2: You know, why do you you're just blaming all this

994
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 2: stuff on your parents or you know whatnot. How do

995
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 2: you balance you know, looking at and recognizing trauma as

996
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 2: in ex explanation versus an excuse.

997
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:05,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And I think you know one thing that

998
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 1: you need to hear from my story is that, yes,

999
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 1: those were decisions that I made. I own those. It's

1000
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:13,800
Speaker 1: nobody's fault. There is no excuse that I can make

1001
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:17,760
Speaker 1: for my own choices. I hurt people, I'm wounded people.

1002
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 1: This is not a explaining away the woundings that have

1003
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 1: been caused to others who are victims, or my wife,

1004
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 1: all those types of things. What we understand, though, is

1005
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:32,600
Speaker 1: that addiction often begins before our ability to conceive what

1006
01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:37,320
Speaker 1: is actually happening. Studies will show that most addictions are

1007
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:40,560
Speaker 1: formed inside of our developmental years, between the ages of

1008
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 1: six and twelve. Even previous to that, and so it

1009
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:46,880
Speaker 1: doesn't explain away the behavior, but it does give us

1010
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:49,760
Speaker 1: a foundation of how we need to move towards healing.

1011
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 1: And so, for us, recovery is really just is this discipleship.

1012
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 1: It's learning how to sanctify those pieces of us that

1013
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:01,680
Speaker 1: have been misformed and broken by sin in the world,

1014
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:06,320
Speaker 1: broken by unhealthy relationships. You know, the attachment wounds that

1015
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:10,360
Speaker 1: you experience to parents and caregivers and friend groups create

1016
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 1: a pattern of behavior within us that we need to

1017
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:17,560
Speaker 1: soothe because of brokenness in this world. And so the

1018
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 1: recovery journey is not just you know, hey, yeah, I

1019
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 1: did this bad thing, and now I'm going to be

1020
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:25,520
Speaker 1: transformed by the grace of God. I'm no longer ever

1021
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:29,480
Speaker 1: going to sin. It's learning how to repair and reframe

1022
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:32,200
Speaker 1: the way that we attach to other people. It's learning

1023
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:36,680
Speaker 1: how to heal behaviorally and relationally. As a result of

1024
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:40,240
Speaker 1: doing that, underlying healing of the trauma that has occurred

1025
01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 1: to us. And so if we don't learn how to

1026
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:46,640
Speaker 1: repair those places inside of our stories that have been broken,

1027
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 1: you know, my addiction to sexuality might turn to alcoholism

1028
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 1: or drug abuse or gambling. It's going to find somewhere

1029
01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:56,320
Speaker 1: to find relief if I don't learn to heal those

1030
01:01:56,360 --> 01:01:58,040
Speaker 1: stories that are underneath the surface.

1031
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:00,840
Speaker 2: And I think what I want people to hear is

1032
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:03,760
Speaker 2: there's a secular way to do that, and there's a

1033
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:07,440
Speaker 2: Jesus way to do that, right, And you know, I

1034
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:10,000
Speaker 2: think you and I not. I think I know you

1035
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:11,960
Speaker 2: and I agree that the best way to repair that

1036
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:15,560
Speaker 2: stuff is the Jesus way. Right. And so that leads

1037
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 2: me to this question. You said, on one hand, right,

1038
01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:26,800
Speaker 2: that this recovery involves discipleship, right, involves inviting Jesus. I think,

1039
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:29,240
Speaker 2: I say, you know not, I think I know. I

1040
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:33,280
Speaker 2: say that it's it's allowing Jesus into those parts of

1041
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 2: ourselves that we've falled off. Right. And Yet on the

1042
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:38,120
Speaker 2: other hand, you said this earlier, and you kind of

1043
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:45,520
Speaker 2: insinuated it here, is it's not just pray more, read

1044
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:49,120
Speaker 2: your Bible more? Whatnot? How do you how how do

1045
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 2: we how do we weigh both those things together? Of like, well, okay,

1046
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 2: it is discipleship, so on one hand, it is Jesus.

1047
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:00,160
Speaker 2: But on the in the hand, it's not just well,

1048
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:03,520
Speaker 2: just pray and read your Bible more. How do we

1049
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:07,160
Speaker 2: marry those two things. We'll be right back after this.

1050
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:13,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it's, you know, an understanding of how

1051
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:17,040
Speaker 1: God created us to develop as a human being, right,

1052
01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:18,919
Speaker 1: the way that we have formed, the way that we

1053
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:22,040
Speaker 1: attached to things. I think the Bible will talk about

1054
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:24,960
Speaker 1: this as our hearts, like the Bible talks about our

1055
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:28,000
Speaker 1: heart like over seven hundred times, as being the central

1056
01:03:28,040 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 1: place that we as a as a human, as a

1057
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:33,960
Speaker 1: being created in the image of God, connect to the

1058
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:36,800
Speaker 1: world around us and connect to people and create attachment

1059
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:41,160
Speaker 1: and form relationships. But Jeremiah would say that the heart

1060
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:44,840
Speaker 1: is deceitful above all else, it is wicked. Who can

1061
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:48,800
Speaker 1: understand it. From the heart comes out everything that a

1062
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:51,440
Speaker 1: man does. And so four two three is built on

1063
01:03:51,480 --> 01:03:55,040
Speaker 1: that premise of Proverbs four twenty three. Guard your heart.

1064
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:59,040
Speaker 1: Learn how to protect and guard your heart, so that

1065
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:01,840
Speaker 1: because everything that you do flows from it. It is

1066
01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 1: a spring of eternal life that comes from within the heart.

1067
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:09,640
Speaker 1: And so if we don't understand how that experiences of

1068
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 1: life have shaped us, how our hearts have been formed

1069
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:17,360
Speaker 1: and wired in those relational impacts, I can't submit those

1070
01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:21,520
Speaker 1: places into discipleship that I am unaware of. And so

1071
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:24,680
Speaker 1: inside of our recovery journey. It's like, man, there are

1072
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:28,200
Speaker 1: traumas and woundedness and ways that I have learned to

1073
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:33,200
Speaker 1: pattern my life surrounding these traumatic memories and these moments

1074
01:04:33,560 --> 01:04:37,440
Speaker 1: from my childhood. And yet I'm here now at thirty seven,

1075
01:04:38,040 --> 01:04:41,840
Speaker 1: just saying no, only think good thoughts and submit to

1076
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:47,360
Speaker 1: confession and repentance. Okay, what am I repenting from? Yes,

1077
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:49,000
Speaker 1: the behavior, I need to stop it. But why does

1078
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:51,240
Speaker 1: the behavior even exist inside of my story? In the

1079
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:54,520
Speaker 1: first place, I love Jesus, I want to follow him

1080
01:04:54,560 --> 01:04:57,040
Speaker 1: with everything. I want to be a man of integrity.

1081
01:04:57,080 --> 01:05:00,320
Speaker 1: I want to love my wife so well. And yet

1082
01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:03,720
Speaker 1: even though I confess, even though I repent and turn

1083
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:06,920
Speaker 1: away from and white knuckle and close off the system,

1084
01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:10,120
Speaker 1: there is still a part of myself that is driven

1085
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:17,000
Speaker 1: after using these coping mechanisms to soothe and heal what yep, right,

1086
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:22,440
Speaker 1: those traumas, those woundings underneath the surface, And so for us,

1087
01:05:22,600 --> 01:05:26,480
Speaker 1: recovery is simply learning to identify those pieces that are

1088
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:29,000
Speaker 1: a part of the old man, the broken parts of

1089
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:32,160
Speaker 1: our system, and saying, hey, where is there a desire

1090
01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:35,040
Speaker 1: inside of my heart, inside of my system that is

1091
01:05:35,120 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 1: outside of God's design for my life. How can I

1092
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:43,360
Speaker 1: go back identify, Oh, that wounded, broken piece of my identity,

1093
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:46,440
Speaker 1: that shame narrative at eight years old, that is shaping

1094
01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:50,680
Speaker 1: how I behave? Lord, would you take this broken shame

1095
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:54,880
Speaker 1: message through confession and repentance inside of a community which

1096
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:57,680
Speaker 1: God has given us, the body of Christ, to be

1097
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:01,000
Speaker 1: the place where we confess our trans formed, where these

1098
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:04,600
Speaker 1: places inside of our story can be reshaped through the

1099
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:09,560
Speaker 1: Holy Spirit into the image of God after our discipleship,

1100
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:13,000
Speaker 1: after Christ. And so recovery is learning to identify those

1101
01:06:13,040 --> 01:06:17,400
Speaker 1: little pieces, bring him into the community, confess so that

1102
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:19,800
Speaker 1: it can be transformed into the new life that we

1103
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:23,600
Speaker 1: have in Christ. Not simply saying I am completely oblivious

1104
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:26,160
Speaker 1: to every other thing that's ever happened to me. I'm

1105
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:30,120
Speaker 1: only going to be transformed into Christ. Okay, Well, what

1106
01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:33,040
Speaker 1: pieces of your life are needing to be transformed from

1107
01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:35,680
Speaker 1: the old man? Who is the old man? What is

1108
01:06:35,680 --> 01:06:38,480
Speaker 1: actually happening underneath the surface. What is the system that

1109
01:06:38,520 --> 01:06:41,720
Speaker 1: has been developed that is the old man, the old flesh,

1110
01:06:42,040 --> 01:06:44,920
Speaker 1: so that I can crucify it, confess it, and be

1111
01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:48,120
Speaker 1: transformed into the new life that has been given to me.

1112
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:51,480
Speaker 1: That's a whole podcast topic by itself of unpacking that

1113
01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:56,720
Speaker 1: process of sanctification and mortification and regeneration that I'm assuming

1114
01:06:56,720 --> 01:06:58,640
Speaker 1: we don't have time for today, but it's an important

1115
01:06:58,640 --> 01:06:59,640
Speaker 1: part of that conversation.

1116
01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:03,040
Speaker 2: Well, well, I think you just solidified it is that

1117
01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:07,000
Speaker 2: I think we need to have a part two of

1118
01:07:07,080 --> 01:07:10,240
Speaker 2: where we talk about that, where we talk about sanctification,

1119
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:12,080
Speaker 2: where we talk about that process, where we talk about

1120
01:07:12,360 --> 01:07:15,520
Speaker 2: you know, even even even what we alluded to earlier,

1121
01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:20,560
Speaker 2: you know, sobriety versus ultimate healing, you know, and what's

1122
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 2: the role and so joel. If people though, in the

1123
01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:28,360
Speaker 2: meantime before we get to part two, if they want

1124
01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:31,560
Speaker 2: to learn more about four two three communities and what

1125
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:34,200
Speaker 2: you're doing, especially for the sexually broken, where can they go?

1126
01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:38,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, four two three communities dot org. It's going to

1127
01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:40,000
Speaker 1: be the central hubs for everything that you need to

1128
01:07:40,040 --> 01:07:43,640
Speaker 1: know about what we do. One of the main main

1129
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:46,640
Speaker 1: encouragements is that if you are a man, woman, a

1130
01:07:46,760 --> 01:07:51,080
Speaker 1: hurt spouse, a teen, a parent who is struggling to

1131
01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:53,920
Speaker 1: come to terms with what is going on inside of

1132
01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:59,120
Speaker 1: your relationships in regards to sexual brokenness, with pornography and fidelity,

1133
01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:03,600
Speaker 1: acting out whatever it is inside of your story. We

1134
01:08:03,640 --> 01:08:06,200
Speaker 1: would love to walk with you at four two three communities.

1135
01:08:06,960 --> 01:08:10,240
Speaker 1: We can place you in an ongoing, year round discipleship

1136
01:08:10,360 --> 01:08:13,760
Speaker 1: formational group to bring you into healing, to get you

1137
01:08:13,840 --> 01:08:16,640
Speaker 1: to a place of sobriety, but also make sense of

1138
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:20,120
Speaker 1: and heal your story while you run along brothers and

1139
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:23,519
Speaker 1: sisters who are doing the same work alongside of that.

1140
01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:25,800
Speaker 1: One of our main missions, John is to equip the

1141
01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:29,679
Speaker 1: local church. Only ten percent of churches have a resource

1142
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:33,400
Speaker 1: to help those who are struggling with sexual brokenness. And

1143
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:35,840
Speaker 1: so if you hear this and you want a four

1144
01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:39,120
Speaker 1: to two three community brought to your church, we would

1145
01:08:39,160 --> 01:08:43,080
Speaker 1: love to partner with your church, create, facilitate, and run

1146
01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:47,680
Speaker 1: an ongoing witnessing community within your local community for as

1147
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:49,840
Speaker 1: long as you'll have us there, because that is our

1148
01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:53,040
Speaker 1: mission is to bring hope, healing and transformation to those

1149
01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:56,800
Speaker 1: affected by problematic sexual behaviors in any way that we can.

1150
01:08:57,800 --> 01:09:02,320
Speaker 2: Joel, thank you so much for your vulnerability, your openness,

1151
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:05,280
Speaker 2: your honesty. We're going to have you back again and

1152
01:09:05,320 --> 01:09:07,240
Speaker 2: thank you for the work that you are doing. It's

1153
01:09:07,360 --> 01:09:11,000
Speaker 2: just incredible to see the way that God has worked

1154
01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:13,360
Speaker 2: through your limp and through your weakness.

1155
01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:16,360
Speaker 1: So I appreciate it absolutely, John, and Brother, I'm so

1156
01:09:16,520 --> 01:09:19,480
Speaker 1: encouraged by men like you who are opening this conversation

1157
01:09:19,640 --> 01:09:22,960
Speaker 1: and creating a space for all of us. Whatever you're

1158
01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:27,120
Speaker 1: wrestling with, whether it's sexual addiction, or alcoholism or dependencies

1159
01:09:27,160 --> 01:09:29,160
Speaker 1: in some other way, we are all on this journey

1160
01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:33,160
Speaker 1: together of being reshaped and reformed into the image that

1161
01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:35,840
Speaker 1: God has created us to be. So, Brother, I'm so

1162
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:38,040
Speaker 1: honored to run alongside you and thank you for the

1163
01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:41,559
Speaker 1: work that you're doing. Man, it's life changing. You know.

1164
01:09:41,600 --> 01:09:44,160
Speaker 2: I was talking to someone last night about what it

1165
01:09:44,400 --> 01:09:49,120
Speaker 2: means to do gospel centered recovery, and I think one

1166
01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:53,160
Speaker 2: of the concepts and the ideas that is important is

1167
01:09:53,640 --> 01:10:00,519
Speaker 2: it comes down to complete surrender. Like Lord, I'm finally

1168
01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:03,080
Speaker 2: at the point where whatever you call me to do

1169
01:10:03,240 --> 01:10:09,680
Speaker 2: in order to get sober, I'll do it right. And

1170
01:10:09,680 --> 01:10:12,680
Speaker 2: in turning yourself over to Him in that way, right,

1171
01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:16,240
Speaker 2: not what you think you can do, not what sacrifices

1172
01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:19,000
Speaker 2: you think you can make that are good enough, but

1173
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:21,000
Speaker 2: turning yourself over to you, just saying I want you

1174
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:24,439
Speaker 2: to permeate every aspect of my being. And I think

1175
01:10:24,520 --> 01:10:26,360
Speaker 2: one of the ways that we show that, and this

1176
01:10:26,439 --> 01:10:30,360
Speaker 2: is very biblical is obedience, and so it's surrendering to

1177
01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:34,160
Speaker 2: him and saying, what, whatever you want me to do,

1178
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:38,840
Speaker 2: I'll do it, whatever ridicule, whatever person you want me

1179
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:41,599
Speaker 2: to talk to, to see to. It's like, I'm done.

1180
01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:45,360
Speaker 2: I'm done. And I think that's the place that Joel

1181
01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:48,200
Speaker 2: got to, right, because when he went halfway didn't end

1182
01:10:48,280 --> 01:10:49,960
Speaker 2: up well. And I think there's so many of us

1183
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:54,679
Speaker 2: who've gone halfway. There's so many of us who will

1184
01:10:54,680 --> 01:10:57,639
Speaker 2: say I'm doing everything he wants me to and it's

1185
01:10:57,680 --> 01:11:00,280
Speaker 2: just like, come on, guys, like, no, you're not. You

1186
01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:03,439
Speaker 2: know you're not. I knew I wasn't right. I knew

1187
01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:06,040
Speaker 2: I wasn't. I'd convince myself in some ways that I was,

1188
01:11:06,080 --> 01:11:09,800
Speaker 2: but really deep down like you're not fully surrendered, and

1189
01:11:09,840 --> 01:11:12,200
Speaker 2: that's what it comes down to you. And so I

1190
01:11:12,240 --> 01:11:17,280
Speaker 2: appreciate that aspect of Joel's story. Listen. Thank you for

1191
01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:21,479
Speaker 2: all your support as this podcast continues to reach people.

1192
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:23,120
Speaker 2: And one of the ways that you can make sure

1193
01:11:23,120 --> 01:11:25,880
Speaker 2: that it reaches people is to like subscribe but rate it.

1194
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:31,360
Speaker 2: So if you can drop a rating in Spotify or

1195
01:11:31,400 --> 01:11:35,920
Speaker 2: Apple and and a little review, that really helps. It

1196
01:11:35,960 --> 01:11:38,160
Speaker 2: really helps put this you know, towards the top of

1197
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:41,200
Speaker 2: the charts and when people are like, what's this and

1198
01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:42,720
Speaker 2: then they go look at the reviews and they see

1199
01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:44,760
Speaker 2: what you say that really helps, So thank you, and

1200
01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:46,960
Speaker 2: then share it. Please share it just with one person

1201
01:11:48,040 --> 01:11:52,360
Speaker 2: that would that you think could benefit from it. Thank

1202
01:11:52,360 --> 01:11:55,040
Speaker 2: you as always to our partner life audio dot com.

1203
01:11:55,120 --> 01:11:58,280
Speaker 2: Life Audio has some other great podcasts. They support this podcast.

1204
01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:01,360
Speaker 2: They help put this on and I am grateful to them.

1205
01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:03,519
Speaker 2: Love you all. We will see you here next week.