1 00:00:02,710 --> 00:00:08,220 Speaker 1: Life Audio. Don't be shy in this interview. Push. 2 00:00:08,300 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 2: Do you respect Jesus? 3 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: I don't think he does. So what's the rule? I 4 00:00:11,619 --> 00:00:14,239 Speaker 1: play sports. I play sports. This is another reason I 5 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:16,620 Speaker 1: can't go there because nobody's told me how the rule 6 00:00:16,660 --> 00:00:17,119 Speaker 1: book works. 7 00:00:17,140 --> 00:00:18,460 Speaker 2: Let me come back to the rule book. All I'm 8 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:19,669 Speaker 2: saying is when we say, yeah. 9 00:00:19,750 --> 00:00:21,370 Speaker 1: I did that. Why does he need me to bend 10 00:00:21,390 --> 00:00:21,710 Speaker 1: the knee? 11 00:00:21,810 --> 00:00:23,529 Speaker 2: He doesn't need you to do anything. 12 00:00:23,550 --> 00:00:25,110 Speaker 1: Okay, then why does he punish me for not doing 13 00:00:25,170 --> 00:00:26,070 Speaker 1: it then? 14 00:00:26,110 --> 00:00:28,250 Speaker 2: You said you're going to your grave not believing in God. 15 00:00:28,330 --> 00:00:31,500 Speaker 1: It's a never. It's a never. I run into, unfortunately, 16 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: people who go, it's 100%. There is no doubt. I 17 00:00:34,900 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: can't go there. Here's why I can't go there. 18 00:00:37,550 --> 00:00:40,490 Speaker 2: Todd McFarlane is one of the most successful and influential 19 00:00:40,590 --> 00:00:44,290 Speaker 2: comic book creators over the past half century. Creating both 20 00:00:44,409 --> 00:00:45,589 Speaker 2: Venom and Spawn. 21 00:00:45,710 --> 00:00:47,050 Speaker 1: Co-creator. Venom. 22 00:00:47,790 --> 00:00:52,210 Speaker 2: Co-creator. Transforming the storyline and artistry of Spider-Man in the 23 00:00:52,950 --> 00:00:56,090 Speaker 2: 1990s when I started collecting. Creating McFarlane toys. One of 24 00:00:56,130 --> 00:00:59,870 Speaker 2: the top action figure manufacturers in the U.S., You're a 25 00:00:59,890 --> 00:01:04,540 Speaker 2: collector of record-breaking baseballs, which is fascinating. A devoted father 26 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 2: and husband married to your high school sweetheart. I married 27 00:01:07,940 --> 00:01:10,100 Speaker 2: my high school sweetheart as well. I thought that was 28 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,919 Speaker 2: kind of fun. And you're an atheist, which will particularly 29 00:01:14,140 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 2: interest my audience. 30 00:01:15,620 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: Oh, that's cool. 31 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 2: We'll come back to some of that. We're going to 32 00:01:19,020 --> 00:01:21,820 Speaker 2: explore your beliefs about God, the afterlife, the supernatural. I 33 00:01:22,270 --> 00:01:23,970 Speaker 2: want to start with your backstory, but first. 34 00:01:23,830 --> 00:01:26,090 Speaker 1: Off, honestly— Okay, and before we get going, can I 35 00:01:26,130 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: just add— Don't be shy in this interview. 36 00:01:29,860 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 2: Right. 37 00:01:30,100 --> 00:01:32,750 Speaker 1: Because I think I watched the interview with you and 38 00:01:32,830 --> 00:01:36,070 Speaker 1: Rob or something. Yep. And one of your comments was 39 00:01:36,090 --> 00:01:39,410 Speaker 1: that somebody said, I wish you had pushed him a 40 00:01:39,430 --> 00:01:41,610 Speaker 1: little bit more. Right. So push. 41 00:01:42,050 --> 00:01:42,569 Speaker 2: OK. Right. 42 00:01:42,630 --> 00:01:45,690 Speaker 1: Today. Today's a push. I got I'm good. I got 43 00:01:45,730 --> 00:01:49,270 Speaker 1: thick skin. I'm good. Like, let's make this. I don't 44 00:01:49,310 --> 00:01:53,890 Speaker 1: want one comment to go, Sean, you didn't push him enough. Right. OK. 45 00:01:53,970 --> 00:01:54,230 Speaker 1: That's it. 46 00:01:54,900 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 2: Fair enough. 47 00:01:55,420 --> 00:01:55,660 Speaker 1: All right. 48 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:56,540 Speaker 2: You call it the beginning. 49 00:01:56,660 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: I love it. 50 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:58,820 Speaker 2: We'll jump in there and we'll get to that. 51 00:01:58,880 --> 00:01:59,220 Speaker 1: Sure, sure. 52 00:01:59,460 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 2: First thing I do, I just want to personally thank 53 00:02:01,970 --> 00:02:05,150 Speaker 2: you because I love, I started collecting Spider-Man in the 54 00:02:05,190 --> 00:02:08,090 Speaker 2: early 90s. And the way you drew Spider-Man, I bought 55 00:02:08,110 --> 00:02:11,750 Speaker 2: this issue 300, just like it right off the newsstand, 56 00:02:11,950 --> 00:02:14,390 Speaker 2: just captivated me. The amount of joy you brought me. 57 00:02:14,490 --> 00:02:15,750 Speaker 2: I brought my sons today. 58 00:02:15,780 --> 00:02:17,860 Speaker 1: Yeah, I met them earlier. 59 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,660 Speaker 2: So you brought more joy than I can even calculate. 60 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:23,299 Speaker 2: So I just want to start by saying thanks for 61 00:02:23,419 --> 00:02:24,410 Speaker 2: what you do and for who you are. 62 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate that, Sean. Let me tell you, though, 63 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:32,890 Speaker 1: that what you're saying was the exact same thing that 64 00:02:32,930 --> 00:02:36,090 Speaker 1: happened to me when I was collecting and buying, right? Like, 65 00:02:36,210 --> 00:02:39,890 Speaker 1: I was being inspired on a lot of different levels 66 00:02:40,850 --> 00:02:43,770 Speaker 1: by books that I was buying, and the person drawing 67 00:02:43,810 --> 00:02:45,670 Speaker 1: it was thousands of miles away. They were never going 68 00:02:45,690 --> 00:02:47,510 Speaker 1: to meet me. I never met any of them. They 69 00:02:47,530 --> 00:02:50,490 Speaker 1: had no idea that this work that they're doing in 70 00:02:50,530 --> 00:02:53,780 Speaker 1: their room by themselves was impacting people. So it's always 71 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: interesting when you do it. Cause I go, I relate 72 00:02:56,060 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 1: to it, not from like, Oh, thank you. You know, 73 00:02:59,139 --> 00:03:01,780 Speaker 1: cause my 15 minutes of fame has lasted too long, 74 00:03:02,310 --> 00:03:05,070 Speaker 1: but I'm going, I get it. Cause if I hadn't 75 00:03:05,430 --> 00:03:07,030 Speaker 1: met some of the people I wish I could have, 76 00:03:07,850 --> 00:03:10,090 Speaker 1: I would have said the same thing, right. That they, 77 00:03:11,070 --> 00:03:14,110 Speaker 1: they were paying it forward and not knowing it. And 78 00:03:14,150 --> 00:03:16,370 Speaker 1: so we're, we're all doing, we're all doing it in 79 00:03:16,389 --> 00:03:16,950 Speaker 1: an odd way. 80 00:03:17,030 --> 00:03:17,290 Speaker 2: Right. 81 00:03:17,370 --> 00:03:23,660 Speaker 1: So, and, and the, the, Things that people thank me for, 82 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,660 Speaker 1: I have to tell you to some extent, they were 83 00:03:26,820 --> 00:03:31,910 Speaker 1: for selfish reasons, right? I was in a room, isolated, 84 00:03:32,710 --> 00:03:35,310 Speaker 1: and I needed to entertain myself. And so I wasn't 85 00:03:35,390 --> 00:03:38,370 Speaker 1: thinking of anybody else at that moment when I was 86 00:03:38,410 --> 00:03:41,550 Speaker 1: drawn other than me getting through the grind of a 87 00:03:41,530 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: 12 to 16 hour day, work day, five, six days 88 00:03:45,180 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: a week, right? Just getting the work done. Luckily- Whatever 89 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,220 Speaker 1: it was that was entertaining me went on to entertain 90 00:03:52,340 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: other people. There was the luck. There was the luck 91 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,900 Speaker 1: that came in that piece of my evolution. 92 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,090 Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate that humility about it, but the fact 93 00:04:01,210 --> 00:04:03,010 Speaker 2: is that you created it. We got a lot of joy, 94 00:04:03,050 --> 00:04:04,530 Speaker 2: so thanks for doing it. 95 00:04:04,690 --> 00:04:04,950 Speaker 1: Sure. 96 00:04:05,250 --> 00:04:07,570 Speaker 2: Let's start with your family. Tell me a little about 97 00:04:07,610 --> 00:04:09,710 Speaker 2: your family growing up, kind of who they were and 98 00:04:09,770 --> 00:04:11,330 Speaker 2: how they shaped you. 99 00:04:13,370 --> 00:04:20,089 Speaker 1: Dad, still alive. 90, 90 years old, is the man 100 00:04:20,190 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: that I would like to be remembered as, right? He's 101 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,900 Speaker 1: just a good– when I was younger and I'd go, hey, 102 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,660 Speaker 1: who's your– like, if you could be one person– like, 103 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,900 Speaker 1: it was always dad, right? It was always dad. Not 104 00:04:33,940 --> 00:04:37,490 Speaker 1: a slight to mom, but it was dad. He was hardworking. 105 00:04:38,130 --> 00:04:40,690 Speaker 1: I thought he was honest. I thought he was fair-minded. 106 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: And I rarely heard him criticize people. He just went 107 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: about his day and he was joyful. And he thought 108 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: that making people smile was sort of part of what 109 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,700 Speaker 1: we should be doing. And he would show me real 110 00:05:03,860 --> 00:05:06,059 Speaker 1: simple ways to do it. Just say hi to somebody 111 00:05:06,100 --> 00:05:08,260 Speaker 1: when they're walking by, right? Tap on the window, give 112 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,229 Speaker 1: them a wave, whatever. So, because my kids would do that. 113 00:05:11,250 --> 00:05:12,789 Speaker 1: They'd go, dad, how come you say hi to everybody 114 00:05:12,810 --> 00:05:15,070 Speaker 1: that you walk by? Right? They don't know that it was... 115 00:05:15,010 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: It was your dad. Yeah, it was dad, right? It's like, well, 116 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 1: why not? The answer is like, why not? Right? Like, 117 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,940 Speaker 1: somebody's walking by, the golden rule, right? Hey, how you doing? 118 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: If they don't want to respond back, I don't get 119 00:05:24,300 --> 00:05:26,580 Speaker 1: to control that. But it's just like, hey, how you doing? 120 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,770 Speaker 1: How's it going? Good. So, he was good. Mom... She 121 00:05:30,810 --> 00:05:35,890 Speaker 1: was a homemaker. She had, at the beginning, three boys. 122 00:05:35,970 --> 00:05:37,830 Speaker 1: I have a brother a year younger, a brother a 123 00:05:37,830 --> 00:05:41,710 Speaker 1: year older, and me. Now, I think any mom that 124 00:05:41,770 --> 00:05:46,830 Speaker 1: has three male children that close at some point should 125 00:05:46,930 --> 00:05:51,870 Speaker 1: get some kind of national recognition because I think it's exhausting. 126 00:05:52,790 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: I think it's exhausting. I think it's exhausting. Boys running around, 127 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: going crazy, energy, whatever. I think mom's worst part of 128 00:06:06,260 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: the year was summer break. I got all three of them. 129 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 1: For how long? And we were in California, so it 130 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:13,020 Speaker 1: was three months. 131 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:14,820 Speaker 2: What part of California? 132 00:06:15,430 --> 00:06:19,110 Speaker 1: Orange County, and then eventually moved up to San Jose. 133 00:06:20,150 --> 00:06:23,589 Speaker 1: And then later, 10 years later, had a... a sister 134 00:06:23,890 --> 00:06:29,430 Speaker 1: that came along, she's out in Burbank. Um, so, and mom, she, she, 135 00:06:29,529 --> 00:06:31,980 Speaker 1: she was just, she was mom, right? She was, she 136 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: was good. And, uh, she, she passed away during, uh, 137 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:40,260 Speaker 1: the pandemic, right? One of those stories, again, don't, don't 138 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,180 Speaker 1: begrudge anybody. I assume everybody was doing what they wanted, 139 00:06:43,220 --> 00:06:47,430 Speaker 1: but we couldn't get to the hospital. They weren't allowing visitors. 140 00:06:47,810 --> 00:06:50,690 Speaker 1: And so, you know, those stories where people were passing 141 00:06:50,730 --> 00:06:52,450 Speaker 1: away alone and, Painful. 142 00:06:52,690 --> 00:06:53,150 Speaker 2: Yeah. 143 00:06:53,330 --> 00:06:57,450 Speaker 1: So but but again, it was that was just where 144 00:06:57,510 --> 00:07:01,180 Speaker 1: everybody was at. Right. And so she's no longer here. 145 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:05,660 Speaker 1: And and then my in-laws, both of them are gone, too. 146 00:07:05,740 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: So dad's the only one that's the only one hanging 147 00:07:08,140 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: tough right now. 148 00:07:08,980 --> 00:07:13,110 Speaker 2: My dad's 86. And similarly, he's my hero. Take more 149 00:07:13,150 --> 00:07:15,150 Speaker 2: from him from anybody else. And I do little things. 150 00:07:15,210 --> 00:07:17,590 Speaker 2: The older I get, I'm like that comes from my dad, 151 00:07:17,650 --> 00:07:21,150 Speaker 2: like even small things like you described saying hi. What 152 00:07:21,170 --> 00:07:24,090 Speaker 2: is it about comics that you love? Now, I've heard 153 00:07:24,150 --> 00:07:27,710 Speaker 2: you say you use the term love. You reserve it. 154 00:07:27,750 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 2: So you can qualify this however you want to, either 155 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,660 Speaker 2: passionate about what you like. What is it about love? 156 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 2: Use whatever word you want to for comics. 157 00:07:36,780 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: I like them a lot. We'll just stay there. I 158 00:07:39,580 --> 00:07:42,030 Speaker 1: like them a lot, right? Like in Dumb and Dumber. 159 00:07:43,310 --> 00:07:46,310 Speaker 1: And you're right. And it's a silly thing. We all 160 00:07:46,350 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: have our little questions. quirks my quirk is I I 161 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,740 Speaker 1: do I reserve the word love for my wife and 162 00:07:52,780 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: my children and I and everything's sort of go like 163 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:01,970 Speaker 1: because I can't use the sentence I love pickles I 164 00:08:02,090 --> 00:08:05,070 Speaker 1: can't use I can't use it and I know I 165 00:08:05,350 --> 00:08:07,270 Speaker 1: know when I have this conversation with people in my 166 00:08:07,310 --> 00:08:10,230 Speaker 1: own family you know I'm going to so you somebody 167 00:08:10,290 --> 00:08:12,210 Speaker 1: walks in you've met them for three seconds you go 168 00:08:12,450 --> 00:08:15,830 Speaker 1: oh I love your dress and You just threw that word. Like, 169 00:08:15,850 --> 00:08:19,110 Speaker 1: you love me and you love this stranger's dress. I've 170 00:08:19,130 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: given you 50 years. But what everybody will always say is, Todd, 171 00:08:26,180 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: it's a different kind of love. I'm with you. I 172 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,420 Speaker 1: understand it. Then from my perspective, use a different word. 173 00:08:33,340 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 2: Fair enough. 174 00:08:34,020 --> 00:08:37,460 Speaker 1: Don't use the same word that somebody is giving you 175 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:42,230 Speaker 1: decades and decades of their devotion to that you just go, 176 00:08:42,270 --> 00:08:45,179 Speaker 1: I'm going to equate it to pickles. Right, can't do it. 177 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:47,620 Speaker 2: By the way, before you tell me why you love 178 00:08:48,140 --> 00:08:52,170 Speaker 2: or not love, like a lot, comics. My dad, if 179 00:08:52,250 --> 00:08:54,090 Speaker 2: I said when I was a kid, I love pizza, 180 00:08:54,150 --> 00:08:56,910 Speaker 2: he'd go, you like pizza, you love your mom. 181 00:08:57,070 --> 00:08:59,330 Speaker 1: That's the same thing. 182 00:08:59,470 --> 00:09:01,090 Speaker 2: That's the idea he's getting at. 183 00:09:01,110 --> 00:09:02,819 Speaker 1: We just get into goofy things in our head. 184 00:09:02,910 --> 00:09:05,859 Speaker 2: That's a fair distinction. Tell us why you deeply like comics. 185 00:09:05,900 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: I'll tell you why I deeply like comic books, because 186 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:11,100 Speaker 1: I think it's a medium, and I didn't know this, why? Again, 187 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: let's just sort of back up a little bit the 188 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,439 Speaker 1: definition of art that I agree with is for people 189 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:21,500 Speaker 1: I don't know what art is but I know what 190 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,300 Speaker 1: I like like you don't have to explain to people 191 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,990 Speaker 1: why some kind of art moves you and one doesn't 192 00:09:30,140 --> 00:09:32,170 Speaker 1: if I take 10 people and I go to the 193 00:09:32,210 --> 00:09:34,750 Speaker 1: museum and I and there and there's a gallery going 194 00:09:34,870 --> 00:09:36,510 Speaker 1: of paintings and I say go stand in front of 195 00:09:36,530 --> 00:09:40,030 Speaker 1: the painting that you think is the best moves you 196 00:09:40,050 --> 00:09:42,150 Speaker 1: the most whatever whatever it is go stand and if 197 00:09:42,170 --> 00:09:44,290 Speaker 1: you're going to take one home Go stand in front 198 00:09:44,309 --> 00:09:47,290 Speaker 1: of it. They might stand in front of, I'm sure, 199 00:09:47,290 --> 00:09:52,050 Speaker 1: 10 different paintings. And none of them are wrong. It's 200 00:09:52,179 --> 00:09:56,020 Speaker 1: right for them, right? So art is just, I like it. 201 00:09:56,380 --> 00:09:58,460 Speaker 1: And we shouldn't have to really sort of, people shouldn't 202 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:02,780 Speaker 1: have to explain why they like art. So for me, 203 00:10:03,260 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: but as I got older, the one component that I 204 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:11,870 Speaker 1: sort of understood intellectually was that it was a combination 205 00:10:11,910 --> 00:10:14,890 Speaker 1: of words and pictures. And that's not really true. It's 206 00:10:19,830 --> 00:10:23,969 Speaker 1: are pictures, right? And the words are being spoken, so 207 00:10:23,990 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: you're not reading it, right? And so that combo of 208 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 1: words and pictures is sort of unique to comic strips 209 00:10:31,380 --> 00:10:36,110 Speaker 1: in the old days and comic books. So I think 210 00:10:36,140 --> 00:10:39,150 Speaker 1: it's just its own sort of neat form of art 211 00:10:39,470 --> 00:10:41,750 Speaker 1: over there, right? I better be the director, the writer. 212 00:10:42,140 --> 00:10:45,260 Speaker 1: the actor, the special effects person all at once when 213 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,420 Speaker 1: I'm putting it all together. And that one image mixed 214 00:10:48,460 --> 00:10:51,020 Speaker 1: with those words has to convey what is in my 215 00:10:51,059 --> 00:10:54,350 Speaker 1: head as much as possible. Otherwise, it becomes a sort 216 00:10:54,390 --> 00:10:57,010 Speaker 1: of a confusion to the person at the other end. 217 00:10:57,790 --> 00:11:00,990 Speaker 2: Do you have an opinion on whether beauty, which a 218 00:11:01,050 --> 00:11:05,130 Speaker 2: lot of art is about, is subjective or is objective? 219 00:11:05,350 --> 00:11:06,949 Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is this is what 220 00:11:07,030 --> 00:11:10,090 Speaker 2: philosophers debate in terms of beauty. Because you described like 221 00:11:10,150 --> 00:11:12,610 Speaker 2: somebody being at, say, an art place. an art museum, 222 00:11:12,690 --> 00:11:16,130 Speaker 2: that piece moved me, fine. This piece moves somebody else. 223 00:11:16,370 --> 00:11:18,510 Speaker 2: But if something's like a piece of dirt moves me 224 00:11:19,030 --> 00:11:21,709 Speaker 2: and Michelangelo moves me, is it like, you know what? 225 00:11:21,850 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 2: If you're not moved by Michelangelo, something's not functioning right 226 00:11:26,059 --> 00:11:29,540 Speaker 2: inside of you. That's beautiful. Do you have an opinion 227 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:30,079 Speaker 2: on that? 228 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:33,300 Speaker 1: I do. And here's what I would say. I think 229 00:11:33,340 --> 00:11:37,300 Speaker 1: it's both. And here's like art, just the act, just 230 00:11:37,350 --> 00:11:39,429 Speaker 1: the look, just the visual of art, I think is 231 00:11:39,470 --> 00:11:44,540 Speaker 1: completely subjective. How you then use that art past that. 232 00:11:45,820 --> 00:11:48,180 Speaker 1: So for us in a comic book, I need you 233 00:11:48,210 --> 00:11:50,470 Speaker 1: to pick up this cover. I need you to pick 234 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:52,990 Speaker 1: up this book. I need you to buy this item. 235 00:11:53,610 --> 00:11:56,990 Speaker 1: So how do I entice you? And now we're getting 236 00:11:57,010 --> 00:11:59,530 Speaker 1: away from the subjective. We're actually trying to manipulate to 237 00:11:59,570 --> 00:12:02,690 Speaker 1: some extent. It's called marketing. And you put it together, 238 00:12:02,870 --> 00:12:06,690 Speaker 1: and then you start using, if you have it, you 239 00:12:06,710 --> 00:12:10,380 Speaker 1: start using data points. And you start going, okay, when 240 00:12:10,420 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: I do these five things, we seem to get a bump. 241 00:12:13,220 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: And when I do these other five things, people don't care. 242 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: So you start understanding a little bit about, at that 243 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:25,370 Speaker 1: current time, and here's the frustrating thing, Sean, that data 244 00:12:25,410 --> 00:12:28,429 Speaker 1: shifts because it can be trends and fads and the 245 00:12:28,980 --> 00:12:31,460 Speaker 1: the swapping out of the audience as they age out 246 00:12:31,500 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: and new people come in. So you're constantly reguessing because 247 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 1: everything's a calculated guess at best. And so that's it. 248 00:12:40,110 --> 00:12:44,110 Speaker 1: So when you put it together, the choice of me using, 249 00:12:44,270 --> 00:12:48,350 Speaker 1: in this case, green, that was calculated, right? So again, 250 00:12:48,970 --> 00:12:51,410 Speaker 1: whether somebody goes, oh, green's my favorite color, that wasn't 251 00:12:51,470 --> 00:12:53,229 Speaker 1: why I was doing it. I was doing it for 252 00:12:53,370 --> 00:12:57,550 Speaker 1: a specific reason, right? The big bombastic of what's on 253 00:12:57,570 --> 00:13:00,609 Speaker 1: the page that's up to the reader themselves to go 254 00:13:00,630 --> 00:13:04,250 Speaker 1: i like it or i don't like it right but 255 00:13:04,309 --> 00:13:06,970 Speaker 1: we have to hook you at least let's just stay 256 00:13:06,990 --> 00:13:09,189 Speaker 1: with comic book we have to hook you here on 257 00:13:09,230 --> 00:13:11,469 Speaker 1: the cut it's interesting they always go don't judge a 258 00:13:11,510 --> 00:13:13,270 Speaker 1: book by its cover you know that thing mom tells 259 00:13:13,290 --> 00:13:15,460 Speaker 1: you i know of course what are you talking about 260 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: of course we do that we do it all the 261 00:13:17,059 --> 00:13:20,260 Speaker 1: time and in comic books a hundred percent this is 262 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: a hundred. 263 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 2: Percent totally those are two of my favorite covers i 264 00:13:23,580 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 2: ask about beauty because one of the reasons many philosophers 265 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 2: put forth for the existence of God is like beauty 266 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,780 Speaker 2: that's built into the world. So if it's subjective, then 267 00:13:32,820 --> 00:13:36,709 Speaker 2: it's just something that's entirely preference. If it's objective, like 268 00:13:36,770 --> 00:13:40,210 Speaker 2: it's in the world itself, it would seemingly point towards 269 00:13:40,290 --> 00:13:42,650 Speaker 2: maybe a painter. So like I look at a waterfall 270 00:13:42,790 --> 00:13:46,090 Speaker 2: or a mountain, I'm like, that's beautiful within itself. 271 00:13:46,250 --> 00:13:46,470 Speaker 1: Sure. 272 00:13:46,870 --> 00:13:49,490 Speaker 2: And if somebody doesn't recognize that, most of us would say, 273 00:13:49,630 --> 00:13:53,500 Speaker 2: I'm not sure they're functioning correctly by not seeing that beauty. 274 00:13:54,250 --> 00:13:57,970 Speaker 2: which to me points towards something transcendent. How do you 275 00:13:58,030 --> 00:13:58,340 Speaker 2: see it? 276 00:14:00,370 --> 00:14:04,980 Speaker 1: I think I'm going to guess for everybody, like the 277 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,740 Speaker 1: beauty is around us every day. It's just a matter 278 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,979 Speaker 1: of whether we want to give it credit, right? So 279 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: you're right. I can sit on a beach and watch 280 00:14:15,860 --> 00:14:21,140 Speaker 1: the ocean break, right? And it's serene and it's calming 281 00:14:21,350 --> 00:14:25,190 Speaker 1: and it's soothing and And I can do it for hours, right? 282 00:14:25,310 --> 00:14:28,250 Speaker 1: I can take a song. My wife can't do this, 283 00:14:28,350 --> 00:14:32,310 Speaker 1: but I can take a song when I'm writing and 284 00:14:32,350 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: put it on loop. And I can listen to it 285 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,660 Speaker 1: 200 times in a row while I'm writing, right? Because 286 00:14:38,700 --> 00:14:44,650 Speaker 1: it just gets me into a zone or whatever else. So, yeah, 287 00:14:44,750 --> 00:14:48,150 Speaker 1: I mean... We like, marketing-wise, we like to try and 288 00:14:48,170 --> 00:14:51,260 Speaker 1: tell the world what beauty is, especially for the female form, right? 289 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,620 Speaker 1: And I think it's aggravating to some extent. I agree. 290 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:58,220 Speaker 1: I think it's done a lot of harm to the 291 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:04,060 Speaker 1: expectations of young women. But beauty's in the eye of 292 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:07,810 Speaker 1: the beholder, right? That's like, shoot, I think my wife's 293 00:15:07,850 --> 00:15:10,370 Speaker 1: the most beautiful woman on the planet. I don't need 294 00:15:10,410 --> 00:15:13,010 Speaker 1: anybody else to agree with that. I'm good with my 295 00:15:13,710 --> 00:15:17,729 Speaker 1: observation of that. Might not be true. But it's an observation, 296 00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:18,290 Speaker 1: and I'm good with it. 297 00:15:18,730 --> 00:15:20,110 Speaker 2: So one more point on this because you're an artist, 298 00:15:20,130 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 2: and then we'll keep moving on. It's interesting you use 299 00:15:22,010 --> 00:15:24,460 Speaker 2: the term credit. Like when I look at the world 300 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,140 Speaker 2: and I look– I live near the beach in Southern 301 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 2: Orange County. I'll go look at the waves, same thing. 302 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 2: It's like, man, that is beautiful. Look at the mountains 303 00:15:30,940 --> 00:15:33,780 Speaker 2: here in Southern California. Look at a waterfall. Look at 304 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,820 Speaker 2: certain pieces of art. Just like I give you credit 305 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 2: for making this art, I look at the world and 306 00:15:38,820 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 2: I go, man, I give God credit for that because 307 00:15:41,180 --> 00:15:43,530 Speaker 2: there didn't have to be sunsets. There didn't have to 308 00:15:43,570 --> 00:15:46,710 Speaker 2: be beautiful oceans. Right. You obviously view it differently. 309 00:15:46,730 --> 00:15:48,430 Speaker 1: Yeah, I do. 310 00:15:48,790 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 2: So when you say give it credit, what do you 311 00:15:50,340 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 2: mean by that? 312 00:15:51,260 --> 00:15:56,460 Speaker 1: I'm saying give credit that exists. It's right there. If 313 00:15:56,500 --> 00:15:59,740 Speaker 1: you look at it, your own family is right there. 314 00:15:59,780 --> 00:16:01,990 Speaker 1: Don't take them for granted, I guess, is the thing. 315 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:07,290 Speaker 1: Don't take things for granted. So, yes, I enjoy probably– 316 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:13,050 Speaker 1: a lot of the same beauty you do. The difference probably, 317 00:16:13,450 --> 00:16:16,090 Speaker 1: and we'll dive into it a little bit deeper, the 318 00:16:16,130 --> 00:16:19,670 Speaker 1: difference between you and I, I don't have any want 319 00:16:19,790 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: or need to know the origin of that beauty. I'm 320 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,380 Speaker 1: disinterested in that piece, right? So I can just enjoy 321 00:16:28,420 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: the beauty for the sake of the beauty that day, 322 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,830 Speaker 1: going cool. So where does a tree come from? Don't know. 323 00:16:35,610 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: I can look at trees all day long. Don't need 324 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: to know more than that. And I enjoy looking at trees. 325 00:16:40,300 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 2: All right. 326 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: Fair enough. 327 00:16:40,900 --> 00:16:44,020 Speaker 2: We'll come back to that. What what makes you different? 328 00:16:44,100 --> 00:16:47,979 Speaker 2: Why have you had so much success in different realms? 329 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,270 Speaker 2: And a lot of people don't know you play Division 330 00:16:50,410 --> 00:16:54,870 Speaker 2: one baseball aspirations to play professionally. So you've had success 331 00:16:54,930 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 2: in like maybe left brain and right brain areas. What 332 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:00,100 Speaker 2: makes Todd McFarlane different? 333 00:17:00,220 --> 00:17:03,020 Speaker 1: All right. I'm going to disavow that. I'm going to 334 00:17:03,060 --> 00:17:07,120 Speaker 1: disavow it. I don't think I am different. I think 335 00:17:07,260 --> 00:17:10,590 Speaker 1: I'm just Todd. This is the piece. This is the 336 00:17:10,650 --> 00:17:14,810 Speaker 1: piece that, and again, it's always interesting when you do 337 00:17:14,890 --> 00:17:18,890 Speaker 1: interviews because you have to really sort of psychoanalyze yourself. 338 00:17:18,950 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: Most people during the day don't. They just live their life, right? Sean, 339 00:17:23,220 --> 00:17:28,430 Speaker 1: I can tell you with 100% honesty, There's never been 340 00:17:28,470 --> 00:17:30,860 Speaker 1: a day in my memory, if I close my mind, 341 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: I go back as far as I can, which is 342 00:17:32,460 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: about kindergarten. I have clear recollection to kindergarten. I don't 343 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: have a single recollection of not being the way that 344 00:17:40,380 --> 00:17:43,869 Speaker 1: I am. So and I'm going to I'm going to 345 00:17:43,890 --> 00:17:46,130 Speaker 1: assume my mom's not here, but I know if she was, 346 00:17:46,170 --> 00:17:48,169 Speaker 1: she would have backed it up. that I only can 347 00:17:48,210 --> 00:17:52,219 Speaker 1: go back to five, from zero to five, she would 348 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: have gone, oh yeah, oh yeah. I think this is 349 00:17:56,820 --> 00:17:59,060 Speaker 1: just me out of the womb, it's just the DNA, 350 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: it's personality. Obviously, environment sort of shifts and does things 351 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: around you. But personality, for me, Sean, it's the one 352 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: thing when I was younger, and I'm talking about my 20s, 30s, 353 00:18:12,050 --> 00:18:17,250 Speaker 1: it was the one piece I didn't give enough weight to. Personality. 354 00:18:17,740 --> 00:18:26,169 Speaker 1: Because some people are aggressive extroverts, introverts, passive, conservative, like 355 00:18:26,369 --> 00:18:29,869 Speaker 1: all these words we come up with. Some of it 356 00:18:29,890 --> 00:18:32,470 Speaker 1: can be taught. Some of it can be taught. But inherently, 357 00:18:32,950 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: it's personalities. And it's the one thing as I've gotten 358 00:18:35,420 --> 00:18:39,730 Speaker 1: older that I now give. A lot of weight, too. 359 00:18:40,020 --> 00:18:42,859 Speaker 1: I can create the blueprint. I can take the horse. 360 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,859 Speaker 1: I can drag the horse to the water. I can 361 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,980 Speaker 1: even shove the horse's head in the water. If the 362 00:18:49,100 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 1: horse doesn't want to drink, nothing I can do about it. 363 00:18:52,500 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: So when I used to coach at a high level, 364 00:18:57,300 --> 00:18:59,060 Speaker 1: every year I'd sort of say the same thing to 365 00:18:59,100 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 1: the parents. Parents, look, there's three things I can't teach 366 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,300 Speaker 1: your kid. Can't teach them to throw harder. Can coach 367 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: them up a little bit, but, I mean, they either 368 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,070 Speaker 1: have it or they don't. Can't teach them to run faster. Again, 369 00:19:10,109 --> 00:19:13,580 Speaker 1: that's just inherent. If they're average, I'll get them above average. 370 00:19:14,060 --> 00:19:16,820 Speaker 1: But they're never going to be Hussein Bolt. And it's 371 00:19:16,859 --> 00:19:19,360 Speaker 1: the last piece, the one you and mom and dad, 372 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,500 Speaker 1: you don't want to accept it. I can't get your 373 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:27,860 Speaker 1: kid to care. They either love what they're doing. They're 374 00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:31,070 Speaker 1: either going to work hard. They're either here for a 375 00:19:31,230 --> 00:19:34,909 Speaker 1: reason that just like, or they're going through the motions. 376 00:19:35,150 --> 00:19:39,350 Speaker 1: And no matter how many lectures I give, It's either 377 00:19:39,490 --> 00:19:41,190 Speaker 1: there or it's not. You keep thinking they're going to 378 00:19:41,210 --> 00:19:43,940 Speaker 1: grow into it. I promise you they won't. I promise 379 00:19:43,980 --> 00:19:48,810 Speaker 1: you they won't. They're either fire eaters and they chew glass. 380 00:19:49,410 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: My daughter's one of them, right? Takes after old man. 381 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 1: Or they don't. And I've got children. My son and 382 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: my wife, they're not glass eaters, which is okay. And 383 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: the thing is, I'm not even saying I don't advocate 384 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,900 Speaker 1: one over the other. I'm just going personality factors into 385 00:20:08,580 --> 00:20:11,459 Speaker 1: life in a bigger way than I had imagined when 386 00:20:11,500 --> 00:20:12,180 Speaker 1: I was a young man. 387 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 2: Fair enough. So you came out of the womb competitive, driven, creative, risk-taking. 388 00:20:18,100 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: And with two brothers? They just, it multiplied. What are 389 00:20:21,660 --> 00:20:22,330 Speaker 1: you talking about? 390 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,150 Speaker 2: Some combination of nature and nature. 391 00:20:24,290 --> 00:20:27,470 Speaker 1: Everything was a competition. When you've got two brothers, everything's 392 00:20:27,510 --> 00:20:28,700 Speaker 1: a competition. Let's go. Yep. 393 00:20:28,970 --> 00:20:31,730 Speaker 2: One of the things, there's a lot of things I 394 00:20:31,750 --> 00:20:33,330 Speaker 2: think you and I have in common, but I talk 395 00:20:33,369 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 2: a lot about my wife and I talk a lot 396 00:20:35,060 --> 00:20:37,439 Speaker 2: about my kids. Hence, I brought two of my boys today. 397 00:20:37,460 --> 00:20:39,130 Speaker 1: Yes, I got to meet them. They're good. 398 00:20:39,190 --> 00:20:42,030 Speaker 2: And they're great kids. And I love them. And I 399 00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:44,169 Speaker 2: would use that word in the way that you described. 400 00:20:44,890 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 2: How did becoming a father change you, your worldview, the 401 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:55,100 Speaker 2: trajectory of your life? Wow. 402 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: I don't know if I made notes at that point. 403 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:04,290 Speaker 1: I do know this, and again, not to diminish, and 404 00:21:04,310 --> 00:21:07,970 Speaker 1: I'll get back to your question. Sure. Having my first child, 405 00:21:08,980 --> 00:21:11,740 Speaker 1: My first daughter named Cyan, named after the color blue. 406 00:21:11,859 --> 00:21:15,030 Speaker 1: After the character. No, after the color blue. 407 00:21:15,050 --> 00:21:17,209 Speaker 2: You named the character after her, after the color. 408 00:21:17,230 --> 00:21:19,670 Speaker 1: Color blue, which is part of printing because my dad 409 00:21:19,710 --> 00:21:23,430 Speaker 1: was in the printing business. The four colors are black, yellow, magenta, 410 00:21:23,890 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 1: and cyan. Cyan is blue. Magenta is what people would 411 00:21:27,180 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 1: call red. But the official term is yellow, black, cyan. 412 00:21:31,109 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: Cyan and Magenta. So we named our daughter Cyan. Anyway, 413 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:37,939 Speaker 1: I knew I was going to be a father and 414 00:21:38,100 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: that's when I left Marvel Comics. And part of it 415 00:21:44,500 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 1: was because what had sort of precipitated me getting to 416 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:54,390 Speaker 1: that point. And here's the piece, the unknown. I'd never 417 00:21:54,430 --> 00:21:56,629 Speaker 1: been a father. I didn't know what it was going 418 00:21:56,650 --> 00:21:58,350 Speaker 1: to be. I didn't know how much time it was 419 00:21:58,369 --> 00:22:03,540 Speaker 1: going to take. I knew nothing. So I went, all right, 420 00:22:03,660 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: here's as good a time as any to make a 421 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,870 Speaker 1: bit of a life change, right? Because I was going 422 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: into the unknown, and we'll just see where it takes it. 423 00:22:13,970 --> 00:22:18,150 Speaker 1: So the plan was at that point, because I had 424 00:22:18,190 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: had this odd moment, which was the straw breaking the 425 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,220 Speaker 1: camel's back. And I said, I quit. I'm done. Oh, 426 00:22:25,230 --> 00:22:26,710 Speaker 1: by the way, my daughter's going to be born. 427 00:22:26,730 --> 00:22:27,850 Speaker 2: Was that the juggernaut story? 428 00:22:28,050 --> 00:22:28,670 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. 429 00:22:28,730 --> 00:22:29,860 Speaker 2: Okay, we can come back to that. 430 00:22:30,170 --> 00:22:31,660 Speaker 1: But my daughter's going to be born in a couple weeks. 431 00:22:31,940 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 1: I'm going to finish this book. I'm done. And that 432 00:22:35,380 --> 00:22:38,140 Speaker 1: was the last book I ever drew. My daughter came 433 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 1: two days early from what the doctor, and I'm always 434 00:22:42,140 --> 00:22:44,100 Speaker 1: amazed how close the doctors can get, but she came 435 00:22:44,140 --> 00:22:46,540 Speaker 1: two days early. So I wasn't done because I'm really 436 00:22:46,580 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 1: good at deadlines. I go, okay, I'm finished on this day. 437 00:22:48,380 --> 00:22:49,980 Speaker 1: My daughter's going to be born the next day. Everything's 438 00:22:50,010 --> 00:22:52,270 Speaker 1: going to be cool. She came two days early, so 439 00:22:52,290 --> 00:22:54,310 Speaker 1: I went up to the hospital. Everything was cool. I 440 00:22:54,350 --> 00:22:57,790 Speaker 1: had to finish those last two pages. And if you look, 441 00:22:58,250 --> 00:23:00,790 Speaker 1: I know it. Nobody else knows. But the last two 442 00:23:00,810 --> 00:23:03,609 Speaker 1: pages I did was a double-page spread, which is two 443 00:23:03,650 --> 00:23:06,930 Speaker 1: pages put together. It had the juggernaut on it. He's 444 00:23:07,150 --> 00:23:09,470 Speaker 1: in it, and then he's bending over. There's a lot 445 00:23:09,490 --> 00:23:13,989 Speaker 1: of destructions, a bent-over post. And it's, I think, whatever, 446 00:23:14,210 --> 00:23:16,869 Speaker 1: 42nd Street and Cyan, right? That was the names of 447 00:23:16,910 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 1: the streets. And I colored them in cyan blue. So 448 00:23:20,859 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 1: my daughter's one day old, and I go, what? Okay, 449 00:23:23,420 --> 00:23:25,129 Speaker 1: I'm going to put her name in my last comic 450 00:23:25,170 --> 00:23:27,990 Speaker 1: book and put it on there. But being a dad, 451 00:23:28,490 --> 00:23:31,649 Speaker 1: the piece that was the scary part, and hopefully you 452 00:23:31,670 --> 00:23:35,910 Speaker 1: can relate to it, is knowing, like, the scariest moment 453 00:23:36,010 --> 00:23:38,869 Speaker 1: for me in being a parent was with our first child. 454 00:23:40,010 --> 00:23:42,070 Speaker 1: And they give you the baby, and they let you 455 00:23:42,109 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: leave the hospital. 100%. And now... Like you're looking at 456 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,020 Speaker 1: your wife because she has the same. Yeah. And first off, 457 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: you're going, do we have the baby strapped in right? 458 00:23:52,100 --> 00:23:54,460 Speaker 1: So you're already starting the process. And you're going, this 459 00:23:54,660 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: baby is completely dependent upon us, and we have no playbook. 460 00:24:04,020 --> 00:24:06,900 Speaker 1: All right, let's just see how long this goes, right? 461 00:24:07,030 --> 00:24:13,850 Speaker 1: So it literally is dependent upon our decision-making, good, bad, 462 00:24:13,910 --> 00:24:16,939 Speaker 1: or indifferent. And it was like, all right, time to 463 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,179 Speaker 1: start paying attention to a lot of things in the 464 00:24:20,220 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 1: world that you didn't pay attention to when it was 465 00:24:22,980 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: just you on your own and or you and your 466 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 1: wife or your significant other when it was just you're carefree, right? 467 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,659 Speaker 1: Here we go. So that's it. Just being, having to, sadly, 468 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: I think what it is for me, I just had 469 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: to mature. And for a guy with my personality, that 470 00:24:41,180 --> 00:24:43,540 Speaker 1: was a bit of a steeper hill than my wife 471 00:24:43,619 --> 00:24:44,740 Speaker 1: where it came a lot more natural. 472 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,380 Speaker 2: Which is part of the purpose of parenting, arguably, to 473 00:24:47,980 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 2: mature us. I remember the moment, not when they hand 474 00:24:49,820 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 2: me the baby, but when we, because they, you know, 475 00:24:52,380 --> 00:24:54,420 Speaker 2: put my son 21 years ago into the car seat. 476 00:24:54,460 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 2: We're like, okay, we're driving home. We can do that. 477 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 2: We walked in the house. We're like, what do we do? 478 00:24:58,420 --> 00:25:01,330 Speaker 2: I remember that like it was yesterday. And you just 479 00:25:01,550 --> 00:25:05,450 Speaker 2: take one step at a time and you figure it out. Yeah. Now. 480 00:25:06,090 --> 00:25:08,630 Speaker 1: Can I add one thing about parents? Just if there's 481 00:25:08,670 --> 00:25:11,210 Speaker 1: any young kids here, because I think they miss a 482 00:25:11,310 --> 00:25:13,270 Speaker 1: little bit. Because I missed it when my parents were 483 00:25:13,290 --> 00:25:15,739 Speaker 1: trying to do it to me. is that when they 484 00:25:15,780 --> 00:25:20,260 Speaker 1: try to give you advice at times, especially when you're teenagers, 485 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: you get a little ornery, and I did. I was 486 00:25:22,340 --> 00:25:28,429 Speaker 1: the most obstinate teenager there was. What I found out later, 487 00:25:28,490 --> 00:25:31,370 Speaker 1: what they were trying to do, and what my wife 488 00:25:31,390 --> 00:25:34,390 Speaker 1: and I are trying to do, is not to paint 489 00:25:34,430 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: the future for them, not to tell them what's right 490 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,250 Speaker 1: and wrong, but to block the dead ends behind us. 491 00:25:43,380 --> 00:25:45,580 Speaker 1: I'm old enough, my wife's old enough to know, we 492 00:25:45,619 --> 00:25:48,120 Speaker 1: know where the dead ends are. So if my kids 493 00:25:48,180 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 1: come and they say, hey dad, I'd like to be 494 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,340 Speaker 1: president of the United States. I can't help them with that, really. 495 00:25:53,700 --> 00:25:55,880 Speaker 1: I've never been the president, don't know how that works. 496 00:25:56,340 --> 00:25:57,859 Speaker 1: Here's what I can help you with. I can tell 497 00:25:57,880 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: you how not to be the president of the United States. 498 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:01,899 Speaker 1: If you want to go down that alley, and you 499 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:03,340 Speaker 1: want to be a wife beater, and you want to 500 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,500 Speaker 1: be a drug addict, and you want to be a 501 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,980 Speaker 1: couple other things, I promise you, you will never be 502 00:26:08,010 --> 00:26:10,970 Speaker 1: the president of the United States, right? So turn around. 503 00:26:11,990 --> 00:26:14,550 Speaker 1: The future is that direction. And I think that's all 504 00:26:14,630 --> 00:26:16,850 Speaker 1: good people try to do, especially parents, is we're just 505 00:26:16,910 --> 00:26:20,870 Speaker 1: blocking the places where you and I have driven over potholes. 506 00:26:21,210 --> 00:26:23,230 Speaker 1: And we know there's potholes there. And it's just like, 507 00:26:24,130 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: turn around, you go find your future. You don't want 508 00:26:26,580 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: to go there. I promise you, son, daughter, that's a 509 00:26:30,780 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 1: wasted direction. Go and do the best you can. So 510 00:26:35,780 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 1: that's it. So we're not trying to define your life. 511 00:26:38,420 --> 00:26:42,899 Speaker 1: We're just trying to prevent some unneeded time and a 512 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,459 Speaker 1: little bit of pain at times emotions that are not 513 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 1: necessary because we went through it we went through the 514 00:26:47,740 --> 00:26:49,050 Speaker 1: the fires that's. 515 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,250 Speaker 2: That's that's a good word i love it now i'm 516 00:26:51,270 --> 00:26:53,630 Speaker 2: gonna sidetrack for a second here it's just gonna bug 517 00:26:53,670 --> 00:26:55,530 Speaker 2: me i'm gonna wake up at midnight and think about 518 00:26:55,570 --> 00:26:58,649 Speaker 2: it you said there's a marketing story behind why spot 519 00:26:58,670 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 2: was written green what's the reasoning why it's or drawn 520 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 2: green as opposed to some other color Two. 521 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,580 Speaker 1: Real simple ones. And again, let me tell you, don't 522 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,500 Speaker 1: overthink stuff. I always tell my employees, I'm always saying, 523 00:27:14,060 --> 00:27:20,500 Speaker 1: stop overthinking it. I can tell you that rarely in 524 00:27:20,540 --> 00:27:25,750 Speaker 1: my life has my gut been wrong. Instincts are amazingly accurate. 525 00:27:26,109 --> 00:27:27,730 Speaker 1: When we let the brain and the heart get in 526 00:27:27,750 --> 00:27:33,750 Speaker 1: the way, that's when we start getting goofy. Um, number one, 527 00:27:33,810 --> 00:27:35,820 Speaker 1: I knew he's going to have a big red Cape. Okay. 528 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 2: Right. 529 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 1: And then I knew he had, he was going to 530 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: have green power. So I go, okay, I want to 531 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:40,180 Speaker 1: do something that's complimentary. 532 00:27:40,260 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 2: Why? 533 00:27:40,820 --> 00:27:43,180 Speaker 1: Just so that I'm not distracting people with three different things. 534 00:27:43,220 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: I don't want to put a color here that is 535 00:27:45,020 --> 00:27:47,250 Speaker 1: either going to compete with the red. Like if I 536 00:27:47,330 --> 00:27:49,969 Speaker 1: use purple or blue, no, I don't want to use 537 00:27:49,990 --> 00:27:51,510 Speaker 1: a darker color. I need something that's going to come 538 00:27:51,530 --> 00:27:53,790 Speaker 1: out and pop. And Oh, by the way, since I 539 00:27:53,790 --> 00:27:56,290 Speaker 1: knew it was going to be green and red. Christmas colors. 540 00:27:56,350 --> 00:27:59,070 Speaker 1: People recognize Christmas colors, right? Like, what are you talking about? Like, 541 00:27:59,109 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: that quick. So, at least the color palette, sometimes I'll 542 00:28:03,690 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 1: use sports color palettes, right? Going, oh, that's a Denver Broncos. 543 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: Blue and orange, right? Like, you just, you pick colors 544 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,679 Speaker 1: that people recognize. Yellow, green. Oh, okay. That's Green Bay Packers. 545 00:28:13,700 --> 00:28:15,730 Speaker 1: That's Oakland A's. That's the, like, there's a lot of 546 00:28:15,770 --> 00:28:19,750 Speaker 1: sports teams that use that. So, things that people recognize and, oh, 547 00:28:19,790 --> 00:28:23,609 Speaker 1: by the way, white would have worked strikingly well here because, because, 548 00:28:24,820 --> 00:28:28,780 Speaker 1: Big corporations, Fortune 500 corporations have done data that says 549 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,060 Speaker 1: the easiest read of anything on a billboard or on 550 00:28:32,100 --> 00:28:35,939 Speaker 1: a label, red background, white letters. They've got data that 551 00:28:35,980 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: backs it up. And if they try any other one, 552 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: that's the one that people go to. Why? I don't know. 553 00:28:39,900 --> 00:28:41,959 Speaker 1: Maybe it's just the most pretty to look at, whatever. 554 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: But it's clear. For me, when I'm doing art on 555 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:52,190 Speaker 1: the outside, I have what I call a three-second rule 556 00:28:52,570 --> 00:28:58,220 Speaker 1: or the mom rule. whatever one you, which is I go, mom, one, two, three. 557 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,700 Speaker 1: What did you say? Shouldn't have to be accurate, but 558 00:29:01,740 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: she needs to be in the ballpark and she needs 559 00:29:04,020 --> 00:29:07,020 Speaker 1: to go. I look like there was a dinosaur and 560 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,729 Speaker 1: some people running and it looks like it was called 561 00:29:10,130 --> 00:29:13,050 Speaker 1: spam or something, whatever. Like I'm going good. She got 562 00:29:13,090 --> 00:29:18,290 Speaker 1: those three pieces, right? I, I constantly, anybody out there 563 00:29:18,350 --> 00:29:21,490 Speaker 1: do so favor one day, look at bill billboards. I 564 00:29:21,550 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: constantly look at billboards. I think, 95% of billboards are 565 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,140 Speaker 1: horrible because you can't read them. They don't pass the 566 00:29:30,180 --> 00:29:32,780 Speaker 1: mom quickly. They don't. Cause I, I I'm looking the 567 00:29:32,820 --> 00:29:35,050 Speaker 1: whole time. I'm actually trying to read it. I'm in 568 00:29:35,070 --> 00:29:37,090 Speaker 1: the passenger seat. I'm trying to read it. And I'm like, 569 00:29:38,470 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: I don't even know what they're selling. you wasted your 570 00:29:40,660 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: money i don't even know what you're selling the best 571 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: billboards i've seen and and and they're there is the 572 00:29:46,220 --> 00:29:52,020 Speaker 1: one that says 96.5 half the billboard soft rock. 573 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 2: That's a San Diego station. Let's go. 574 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: But I'm just saying in two seconds, you go soft 575 00:29:57,940 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: rock on I-6 FM. I don't like soft rock. Then 576 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: don't buy it. Right. But you know it that quick. 577 00:30:03,660 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: And here's the flaw, too, of things where sometimes I 578 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,580 Speaker 1: get credit in my career that I go, why? If 579 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: I had a billboard company, every time somebody's done a billboard, 580 00:30:14,220 --> 00:30:16,100 Speaker 1: I'd make it show it to me at six inches 581 00:30:16,180 --> 00:30:19,890 Speaker 1: wide because. Do this trick, ladies and gentlemen. Next time 582 00:30:19,930 --> 00:30:23,030 Speaker 1: you drive by a billboard, take your finger, your thumb 583 00:30:23,530 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 1: and your middle finger, and expand your fingers to the 584 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,660 Speaker 1: point of where the maximum size of that thing is. 585 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,780 Speaker 1: I promise you, even when it's at your side window, 586 00:30:34,020 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: it won't be more than the width that you can 587 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,540 Speaker 1: spread your fingers. It will never be more than seven 588 00:30:39,580 --> 00:30:43,310 Speaker 1: inches big. I don't know why they're trying to look 589 00:30:43,350 --> 00:30:46,390 Speaker 1: at it on a computer and trying to design something. 590 00:30:46,410 --> 00:30:50,350 Speaker 1: They're thinking about it as being 25, 40 feet intellectually, 591 00:30:50,430 --> 00:30:52,550 Speaker 1: which is what it is. The human eye is only 592 00:30:52,590 --> 00:30:55,270 Speaker 1: going to see it at seven inches. Design something that 593 00:30:55,330 --> 00:30:58,090 Speaker 1: reads at seven inches and then go from there. But 594 00:30:58,530 --> 00:31:00,390 Speaker 1: that's me. We're getting into art theory, but go. 595 00:31:00,690 --> 00:31:03,450 Speaker 2: No, I love it. Good stuff. I'm curious how much 596 00:31:03,650 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 2: you put yourself in your characters. And some things that 597 00:31:06,580 --> 00:31:09,820 Speaker 2: jumped out to me is in episode four, you described 598 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 2: Spawn as an atheist. And then again, in a later character, 599 00:31:13,340 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 2: he either played baseball or has interest in baseball. He's 600 00:31:16,140 --> 00:31:20,180 Speaker 2: got family values. Jack Kirby said, this appeared at the 601 00:31:20,300 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 2: end of the Fantastic Four movie. He said, if you 602 00:31:23,100 --> 00:31:26,060 Speaker 2: look at my characters, you find me. No matter what 603 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 2: kind of character you create or assume, a little of 604 00:31:29,500 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 2: yourself matters. must remain there. So kind of two-part question. 605 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 2: How much do you put yourself or your friends and 606 00:31:35,940 --> 00:31:39,420 Speaker 2: your characters, and is there any character that at least 607 00:31:39,620 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 2: is the closest to Todd McFarlane? 608 00:31:42,220 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: Shoot, this is easy, dude. I try as much to 609 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:52,350 Speaker 1: put people that I've either met, whether they're strangers, momentary, friends, whatever. 610 00:31:52,370 --> 00:31:55,410 Speaker 1: I mean, we have to come up with hundreds and 611 00:31:55,510 --> 00:31:59,910 Speaker 1: hundreds of characters over decades of a career. So you put... Look, 612 00:31:59,950 --> 00:32:02,550 Speaker 1: I haven't invented anything new. I just take what I've 613 00:32:02,610 --> 00:32:04,830 Speaker 1: seen in my life and I just distill it and 614 00:32:04,890 --> 00:32:06,950 Speaker 1: put it in and put in there. But if you're 615 00:32:07,010 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: asking the other question, spawn is me, period, out. Like, look, 616 00:32:12,860 --> 00:32:16,380 Speaker 1: there are a couple of things. Location, location, location and 617 00:32:16,420 --> 00:32:19,260 Speaker 1: stick to what you know. Right. I stick to what 618 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,780 Speaker 1: I know, who I know. I know Todd. I am 619 00:32:22,820 --> 00:32:26,250 Speaker 1: an expert on him. and no other human being on 620 00:32:26,270 --> 00:32:30,550 Speaker 1: the planet, not even my wife, right? So, yes, I go, okay. 621 00:32:30,570 --> 00:32:33,170 Speaker 1: So it becomes real easy then, Sean. I just go, okay, 622 00:32:33,610 --> 00:32:36,310 Speaker 1: if I was Spawn, and I was that guy, and 623 00:32:36,330 --> 00:32:38,790 Speaker 1: I've added some things that are not me, right? Like 624 00:32:38,850 --> 00:32:41,810 Speaker 1: I was never in the military and whatever else. So 625 00:32:41,850 --> 00:32:44,630 Speaker 1: I just go, what would I do in this moment? 626 00:32:45,260 --> 00:32:49,660 Speaker 1: And then I get him to react in those moments, 627 00:32:49,700 --> 00:32:53,910 Speaker 1: which is why some of the early stuff he did was– 628 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: sort of personal to him right there's one time he 629 00:32:56,820 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: needs to go get some information early in the game 630 00:32:58,620 --> 00:33:01,020 Speaker 1: and then he takes somebody and then before he leaves 631 00:33:01,060 --> 00:33:02,340 Speaker 1: he takes the guy and he said go pay your 632 00:33:02,380 --> 00:33:07,770 Speaker 1: alimony right like how dare you how dare you he 633 00:33:07,790 --> 00:33:10,910 Speaker 1: didn't i didn't write this but how dare you have 634 00:33:11,090 --> 00:33:14,150 Speaker 1: children and abandon them and not pay your wife to 635 00:33:14,190 --> 00:33:18,270 Speaker 1: support your children right again he just left he didn't 636 00:33:18,830 --> 00:33:21,370 Speaker 1: do anything more than that just hoping he'd scare the 637 00:33:21,390 --> 00:33:25,020 Speaker 1: guy Into being a man, right? Like that's your duty, right? Like, 638 00:33:25,060 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: come on, man, step up. So, and that the character 639 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: that the Spawn character laments about the most in the 640 00:33:34,900 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: book is his ex-wife. Her name's Wanda. My wife's name Wanda. 641 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:39,700 Speaker 1: Not an accident. 642 00:33:40,210 --> 00:33:40,590 Speaker 2: Of course. 643 00:33:40,610 --> 00:33:43,310 Speaker 1: The baby that they have is Cyan, my first daughter, Cyan. 644 00:33:43,550 --> 00:33:45,870 Speaker 1: Not an accident, right? So, I don't know. 645 00:33:45,890 --> 00:33:47,450 Speaker 2: Terry Fitzgerald, I saw. Yeah. 646 00:33:47,510 --> 00:33:50,740 Speaker 1: So, like, look at it. At some point, it's your book. 647 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: This is the great thing about doing something that you 648 00:33:53,540 --> 00:33:55,940 Speaker 1: do on your own, in your own time, with your 649 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,500 Speaker 1: own money, is that you get to do whatever you want. 650 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,610 Speaker 1: And to some extent, nobody gets any input. This is 651 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:08,660 Speaker 1: the great freedom of freedom. I just– and, like, people 652 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,180 Speaker 1: come up to me now. We're up to– I just 653 00:34:10,219 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 1: sent issue 368 to the printers yesterday. And I know 654 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:18,819 Speaker 1: a lot of my peers think I'm a crazy man 655 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,800 Speaker 1: because they, like, go, I do 20 issues. Like, Todd, 656 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,860 Speaker 1: what are you doing? Like, Robert Kirkman, who invented The 657 00:34:25,900 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 1: Walking Dead. 658 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:28,280 Speaker 2: Invincible, huge fan. 659 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: I love it. So I remember having a conversation with Robert, 660 00:34:30,700 --> 00:34:33,549 Speaker 1: and he quit. He canceled The Walking Dead, I think, 661 00:34:33,610 --> 00:34:36,350 Speaker 1: at issue 193. I'm like, when would you go to 200? 662 00:34:36,350 --> 00:34:38,489 Speaker 1: come on, you can get this anniversary. He's like, Todd, 663 00:34:38,810 --> 00:34:42,070 Speaker 1: I wanted to quit 70 issues ago. He knew I 664 00:34:42,110 --> 00:34:43,930 Speaker 1: was getting close to 300. He goes, if I had 665 00:34:43,969 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: to do another 110 issues, I'd put a poker in 666 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,779 Speaker 1: my eye. I'm not built like you. I don't know 667 00:34:51,860 --> 00:34:55,140 Speaker 1: what you do. Here's why it works for me. Again, 668 00:34:55,180 --> 00:34:59,530 Speaker 1: this is personality. I deal with a world in which 669 00:35:00,710 --> 00:35:04,110 Speaker 1: there are agendas, especially from adults, which is why I 670 00:35:04,540 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: adore children. I just hang out and I try to 671 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: be immature because I just like that they don't have agendas. 672 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,780 Speaker 1: But I can have sort of a really bad day 673 00:35:17,219 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 1: dealing with corporations, dealing with people who have power over me, 674 00:35:20,340 --> 00:35:22,320 Speaker 1: dealing with this. Because again, if I'm making a toy 675 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,650 Speaker 1: of Superman, they get to dictate to me, not the 676 00:35:24,670 --> 00:35:27,730 Speaker 1: other way around. And so all these things I'm dealing with, 677 00:35:27,870 --> 00:35:29,569 Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, I've got this 678 00:35:29,710 --> 00:35:32,569 Speaker 1: shining light besides my family and my wife. I've got 679 00:35:32,610 --> 00:35:35,930 Speaker 1: this shining light light in my career, and it's called Spawn. 680 00:35:36,350 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: And it's standing there with this light glowing down on it, 681 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,739 Speaker 1: and it just says, you can do whatever you want 682 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,479 Speaker 1: with that, and you don't have to get anybody's permission today, Todd. Go. 683 00:35:47,060 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: And so for people who think that doing 350 issues 684 00:35:51,580 --> 00:35:55,739 Speaker 1: of Spawn has been an effort, it's the opposite. It 685 00:35:55,910 --> 00:35:59,609 Speaker 1: actually has been good medicine for a guy like me. 686 00:35:59,770 --> 00:36:06,930 Speaker 1: I need this book in my life because I need 687 00:36:07,130 --> 00:36:11,089 Speaker 1: certain things for my personal comfort. This book has been 688 00:36:11,150 --> 00:36:12,870 Speaker 1: one of those, so creatively. 689 00:36:13,170 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 2: So you describe Al Simmons as basically being you, and 690 00:36:15,660 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 2: that makes sense that you could write storylines and react 691 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,339 Speaker 2: out of instinct based on who you are. You also 692 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,940 Speaker 2: describe some of the storylines as like certain characters, people 693 00:36:24,980 --> 00:36:27,770 Speaker 2: who abandon their family, and you're kind of making a 694 00:36:27,950 --> 00:36:31,960 Speaker 2: moral point, like how dare you. How much do you 695 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 2: weave in your books, like how you see the world, 696 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:39,730 Speaker 2: ideas about how society should be better versus entertainment? Is 697 00:36:39,810 --> 00:36:41,590 Speaker 2: it one or the other? Is it both? How do 698 00:36:41,610 --> 00:36:43,030 Speaker 2: you balance those? 699 00:36:44,750 --> 00:36:48,069 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is a balance, Sean. It is. I don't 700 00:36:48,150 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 1: think that anybody should– get preachy in uh entertainment but 701 00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 1: it's impossible not to bring your own personal biases to 702 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 1: what you that are things that you either believe or 703 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,090 Speaker 1: don't believe in or whatever else and you put them 704 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:08,710 Speaker 1: in and you try to do it for me i 705 00:37:08,750 --> 00:37:11,009 Speaker 1: try to do it in a way that is as 706 00:37:11,390 --> 00:37:17,029 Speaker 1: entertaining as possible that's the balance and if you if 707 00:37:17,090 --> 00:37:20,140 Speaker 1: you If you go too far one way or the other, 708 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:25,800 Speaker 1: you risk losing a certain portion of the audience. But 709 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 1: let's talk about audience just for a minute if I 710 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,419 Speaker 1: can deviate here. I don't need, and there's been a big, 711 00:37:31,460 --> 00:37:34,339 Speaker 1: big misconception for a lot of people with a lot 712 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,540 Speaker 1: of people who try to sell stuff. But for me, 713 00:37:36,620 --> 00:37:38,860 Speaker 1: let's just stay with me because that's all I can 714 00:37:38,900 --> 00:37:43,270 Speaker 1: talk to you today about is I don't need everybody 715 00:37:43,590 --> 00:37:47,050 Speaker 1: to like or agree with what it is that I'm doing. 716 00:37:47,230 --> 00:37:49,870 Speaker 1: That's never been the goal. The goal has been, can 717 00:37:49,890 --> 00:37:57,590 Speaker 1: I get enough people to enjoy it so that I 718 00:37:57,630 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: can make a living so that I can do it 719 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 1: again tomorrow? And if I can figure out that trick 720 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,219 Speaker 1: and it's been 40 years now, I've had a 40 721 00:38:07,219 --> 00:38:10,410 Speaker 1: year career and maybe I've got enough momentum. If I, 722 00:38:10,969 --> 00:38:12,930 Speaker 1: If I pay attention, I might be able to basically 723 00:38:13,250 --> 00:38:18,150 Speaker 1: go to my grave being creative and being able to 724 00:38:18,170 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 1: control that creativity that's in there. So I need enough. 725 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,500 Speaker 1: And so the question isn't that what I do, I 726 00:38:26,900 --> 00:38:30,879 Speaker 1: check with the audience. I never check with the audience. 727 00:38:30,900 --> 00:38:33,620 Speaker 1: Let me just be clear. I never check with the audience. No, no, no, 728 00:38:33,630 --> 00:38:36,630 Speaker 1: I don't. Because the audience is already telling me by 729 00:38:36,650 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 1: the sales, right? They're already voting. They're already giving me 730 00:38:40,219 --> 00:38:43,819 Speaker 1: their comment. I did these three things, sales doubled. I 731 00:38:43,860 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 1: did these three things, sales went in half. I have 732 00:38:46,780 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: to be smart enough to be able to simulate what 733 00:38:49,900 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 1: of those pieces may have actually been the up or 734 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,319 Speaker 1: the down of those sales and try to either stay 735 00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 1: away from it in the future or replicate it and 736 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: try and see if you can get another bounce another day. 737 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 1: So on the comic book front, I'm trying to write, 738 00:39:10,260 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 1: because what am I going to do? I mean, I've created, 739 00:39:14,620 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: somebody told me the other day, they did a count, 740 00:39:16,460 --> 00:39:20,030 Speaker 1: there's 2,100 characters in the Spongebob book in the last 741 00:39:20,030 --> 00:39:25,549 Speaker 1: 30 years. Some of them are just doctors, lawyers, cops, whatever. Like, 742 00:39:25,570 --> 00:39:28,850 Speaker 1: they're not all superheroes. But every time you write a character, 743 00:39:28,870 --> 00:39:30,450 Speaker 1: and here's the thing that's always weird. for people, they 744 00:39:30,469 --> 00:39:32,489 Speaker 1: don't understand. You have to actually sort of try and 745 00:39:32,530 --> 00:39:35,219 Speaker 1: put yourself in their position. So if I'm writing a 746 00:39:35,260 --> 00:39:38,739 Speaker 1: serial killer, I try to get into that as deep 747 00:39:38,780 --> 00:39:42,400 Speaker 1: as I can. And sometimes people go, They look at 748 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: me side-eyed, and they're going, Todd, what do you do? 749 00:39:46,430 --> 00:39:48,790 Speaker 1: And I'm like, hold a sec. I'm not advocating to 750 00:39:48,810 --> 00:39:50,850 Speaker 1: be a serial killer. Of course. But if I'm writing 751 00:39:50,910 --> 00:39:53,650 Speaker 1: a serial killer, it better be convincing. It's the same 752 00:39:53,830 --> 00:39:57,210 Speaker 1: exercise when I do a doctor. I'm not advocating for 753 00:39:57,250 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 1: people to be doctors, right? I'm just saying it better 754 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: be a convincing doctor when I'm writing them. And so 755 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:05,739 Speaker 1: all I can do is go, okay, if I was 756 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,460 Speaker 1: a doctor— in my limited knowledge, or I ask people, 757 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 1: how would I get there? So I just do it. Obviously, 758 00:40:11,900 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: I can't ask about serial killers, so you just make 759 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:15,660 Speaker 1: it up, right? You go, if I was a serial killer. 760 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:19,109 Speaker 1: And that's the piece I think they're going, Todd, you're 761 00:40:19,130 --> 00:40:21,990 Speaker 1: thinking about this way, way, way, way too much. So anyway, 762 00:40:22,030 --> 00:40:26,630 Speaker 1: so I put maybe some, maybe a lot. I don't know. 763 00:40:26,650 --> 00:40:29,270 Speaker 1: I guess it depends on people's definition of what a 764 00:40:29,290 --> 00:40:32,310 Speaker 1: lot is of my personal thoughts. Okay, the whole concept. 765 00:40:32,350 --> 00:40:34,589 Speaker 1: Let's just talk about the whole concept of Spawn, right, 766 00:40:34,750 --> 00:40:39,140 Speaker 1: as a whole. It's got this giant heaven-hell element to it, right? 767 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:41,819 Speaker 1: Which is weird because people are like, what? You're an atheist? Well, 768 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 1: of course, I think it has to be a guy 769 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:48,190 Speaker 1: like me because somebody who is really devout would, I think, 770 00:40:48,250 --> 00:40:50,850 Speaker 1: second-guess themselves. I think they would overthink it. I think 771 00:40:50,870 --> 00:40:53,529 Speaker 1: they would go to bed wondering. I don't believe I'm 772 00:40:53,550 --> 00:40:58,690 Speaker 1: doing any blasphemy because I don't prescribe to that piece 773 00:40:58,850 --> 00:41:00,270 Speaker 1: of it. So, of course, it has to be me. 774 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:05,870 Speaker 1: So I go, okay, let's go. Al Simmons... is just saying, 775 00:41:06,210 --> 00:41:10,219 Speaker 1: and he's basically me, just saying, a pox on both 776 00:41:10,260 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 1: your houses. Heaven and hell, be gone. We're flawed. We're human. 777 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,819 Speaker 1: You want to give us true free will? Get out 778 00:41:20,860 --> 00:41:26,279 Speaker 1: of the way. Let us live our flawed lives as 779 00:41:26,380 --> 00:41:32,009 Speaker 1: we see fit. Go. But they don't. Obviously, in my book, 780 00:41:32,030 --> 00:41:35,109 Speaker 1: they don't. And so he's always in a constant sort 781 00:41:35,170 --> 00:41:37,989 Speaker 1: of push and tug of both of them. And just 782 00:41:38,210 --> 00:41:41,850 Speaker 1: so we know, in the book that I write, they're 783 00:41:41,950 --> 00:41:45,370 Speaker 1: sort of the same thing, just in different clothing, right? 784 00:41:45,730 --> 00:41:48,290 Speaker 1: I always say it. In my book, the difference is 785 00:41:48,510 --> 00:41:50,970 Speaker 1: one just has a better PR firm, right? Just like one. 786 00:41:51,340 --> 00:41:54,020 Speaker 1: But when you get down to the checklist, they both 787 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,060 Speaker 1: have the exact same goals, right? I would argue the 788 00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,830 Speaker 1: same thing here. in our real world. The goals are 789 00:41:59,850 --> 00:42:03,029 Speaker 1: the same. So he's just saying, go, let us just 790 00:42:03,070 --> 00:42:06,469 Speaker 1: be free. Let us just be free. That's all we want. 791 00:42:06,820 --> 00:42:09,799 Speaker 1: He now knows that's impossible because he's seen it with 792 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,839 Speaker 1: his own eyes in the book. So now the question is, 793 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,140 Speaker 1: and it's a tough one because it would be me, 794 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:20,540 Speaker 1: a guy who disavowed all of this forever, would go, wow, 795 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,400 Speaker 1: so there is something. The problem with him in the 796 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,540 Speaker 1: book is it's not what got taught in Sunday school. 797 00:42:28,180 --> 00:42:33,080 Speaker 1: And that's where he's just like, oh, all right, now 798 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,630 Speaker 1: I've got to keep up and I've got to recalculate 799 00:42:35,650 --> 00:42:38,670 Speaker 1: all of this on the fly. Because there can be, 800 00:42:39,489 --> 00:42:41,630 Speaker 1: this may seem weird, there can be good demons and 801 00:42:41,690 --> 00:42:46,990 Speaker 1: bad angels, right? It's this weird theology that I've created 802 00:42:47,150 --> 00:42:50,259 Speaker 1: in my own book. I can tell you how it works, 803 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,819 Speaker 1: but anyway, that's it. So his whole thing is just, 804 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:59,300 Speaker 1: we're flawed, let us have true free will. Leave us alone. 805 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,820 Speaker 1: That's the freest you can make us. Leave us alone. Temptation. 806 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:04,819 Speaker 1: Take temptation away. 807 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,810 Speaker 2: If Al wants heaven and hell to go away and 808 00:43:08,830 --> 00:43:12,590 Speaker 2: you're Al, it sounds like you're saying a world without 809 00:43:12,850 --> 00:43:15,770 Speaker 2: God and the church and belief in the afterlife would 810 00:43:15,810 --> 00:43:16,590 Speaker 2: be a better world. 811 00:43:16,610 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 1: Is that fair? No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying, no, no, no. 812 00:43:22,060 --> 00:43:28,230 Speaker 1: What I'm saying is let people come to whatever it 813 00:43:28,570 --> 00:43:32,570 Speaker 1: is that makes sense for them instead of creating the roadmap. 814 00:43:33,090 --> 00:43:35,170 Speaker 1: And because the roadmap, once you start creating a roadmap, 815 00:43:35,690 --> 00:43:39,279 Speaker 1: then that's where the gray matter and some of the 816 00:43:39,340 --> 00:43:44,219 Speaker 1: chinks in the armor begin to come along the way, right? 817 00:43:44,260 --> 00:43:47,719 Speaker 1: That you just go, oh, now there's a blueprint. Now there's, 818 00:43:48,180 --> 00:43:50,640 Speaker 1: Now there's a rule book that we have to follow. Oh, 819 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 1: I see. So now we've got to follow it. Now 820 00:43:52,660 --> 00:43:55,140 Speaker 1: we don't have free will. We've got to, there's this rule. 821 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:59,569 Speaker 1: That's not free will. Okay, fine. So now we start getting, 822 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:04,029 Speaker 1: we start narrowing people instead of going, people can let 823 00:44:04,050 --> 00:44:06,950 Speaker 1: themselves narrow, let themselves narrow, right? Let them come up 824 00:44:06,989 --> 00:44:09,650 Speaker 1: with it. And again, I'm guessing that it would probably 825 00:44:09,710 --> 00:44:12,390 Speaker 1: start all over again. In all honesty, Sean, people would 826 00:44:12,450 --> 00:44:16,969 Speaker 1: go and do it. And let me see if I can, 827 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,189 Speaker 1: Give you an epiphany. And I've never had that many. 828 00:44:20,950 --> 00:44:26,509 Speaker 1: But I did have one epiphany. So there's religion. And 829 00:44:26,550 --> 00:44:28,930 Speaker 1: then I don't even know what you called me. There's atheists. 830 00:44:28,969 --> 00:44:30,870 Speaker 1: Whatever is at the other extreme. No, no, no, no. 831 00:44:30,910 --> 00:44:33,549 Speaker 1: You're misstating it. There's atheism. And then there's like go 832 00:44:33,630 --> 00:44:37,830 Speaker 1: four miles. Keep going four miles. That's Todd. Like I 833 00:44:37,890 --> 00:44:42,209 Speaker 1: am so far away from the other end. It is like, again, 834 00:44:43,430 --> 00:44:44,770 Speaker 1: do I think it's better or worse? 835 00:44:45,489 --> 00:44:45,700 Speaker 2: No. 836 00:44:46,050 --> 00:44:49,330 Speaker 1: It's good for me. I'm not advocating it for any 837 00:44:49,370 --> 00:44:51,959 Speaker 1: other human being, not even my own children. I'm just going, 838 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:57,299 Speaker 1: I'm Todd, I have dominion over one life, me, this 839 00:44:57,380 --> 00:45:00,719 Speaker 1: is how I choose to be. Everybody else, I'm with you, 840 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,950 Speaker 1: like the golden rule, good for you. I'll give you 841 00:45:03,969 --> 00:45:07,910 Speaker 1: an epiphany though. I was with my daughter, she was 842 00:45:08,370 --> 00:45:12,230 Speaker 1: at med school, and she was doing it in Israel, right? 843 00:45:12,489 --> 00:45:15,750 Speaker 1: And she was living in the second biggest town, city, 844 00:45:16,469 --> 00:45:20,040 Speaker 1: In Israel, it's called Be'er Sheva, right? There's Tel Aviv. 845 00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:22,540 Speaker 1: Everybody knows Tel Aviv. Second biggest one is Be'er Sheva. 846 00:45:22,620 --> 00:45:26,160 Speaker 1: Be'er Sheva is in the desert. I spent 30 years 847 00:45:26,180 --> 00:45:28,920 Speaker 1: in Phoenix, Arizona, so I know the desert. And I 848 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,629 Speaker 1: went to go visit her one day, and then she said, hey, Dad, 849 00:45:31,670 --> 00:45:35,209 Speaker 1: let's go to Jordan, and let's go look at the sculptures, right? 850 00:45:36,010 --> 00:45:40,069 Speaker 1: The sand sculptures that are there in Petra. I'm like, yeah, okay, cool. 851 00:45:41,590 --> 00:45:46,050 Speaker 1: I have to tell you, Sean, I... I couldn't believe 852 00:45:46,070 --> 00:45:52,200 Speaker 1: what I saw between Beersheba and the Jordan border. I 853 00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:55,279 Speaker 1: live in a desert, and I felt like I was 854 00:45:55,440 --> 00:46:02,060 Speaker 1: driving on the moon. There were times where it was devoid, 855 00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:07,560 Speaker 1: it seemed to me, of life. I was on another planet. 856 00:46:08,860 --> 00:46:12,960 Speaker 1: At least we've got cactuses in Phoenix. And then here's 857 00:46:12,980 --> 00:46:15,810 Speaker 1: where the epiphany came. I went, oh, my God. So 858 00:46:15,969 --> 00:46:21,330 Speaker 1: some young woman 2,000 years ago with three children between 859 00:46:21,350 --> 00:46:26,790 Speaker 1: the ages of one and four had to cross this desert. 860 00:46:28,930 --> 00:46:33,700 Speaker 1: Vegas odds tell me three of those four children will 861 00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:37,219 Speaker 1: pass away before she gets to the other end. And 862 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:43,540 Speaker 1: probably all four. All four. Because there's nothing out there, Sean. 863 00:46:43,660 --> 00:46:47,270 Speaker 1: There's nothing out there. but she's trying to find a 864 00:46:47,290 --> 00:46:51,520 Speaker 1: better life for her kids. And as she's holding her 865 00:46:51,620 --> 00:46:56,600 Speaker 1: last child, taking his last breath, she has two choices. 866 00:46:58,219 --> 00:47:02,120 Speaker 1: She can either believe in something more than that moment 867 00:47:03,310 --> 00:47:06,350 Speaker 1: and have hope. And that's what I think religion is 868 00:47:06,550 --> 00:47:11,830 Speaker 1: at its core. It's that one word, hope. Or she 869 00:47:11,870 --> 00:47:15,009 Speaker 1: can believe in what I have, Ashes to ashes, dust 870 00:47:15,030 --> 00:47:17,649 Speaker 1: to dust, you've never seen your kids again. Between those two, 871 00:47:18,370 --> 00:47:20,390 Speaker 1: I actually get it. And if I was there 2,000 872 00:47:20,390 --> 00:47:23,910 Speaker 1: years ago, I might have created religion myself, right? Because 873 00:47:24,290 --> 00:47:29,549 Speaker 1: hope is a generous thing to give somebody. So I 874 00:47:29,770 --> 00:47:35,569 Speaker 1: understand religion at its core. That's it. Because that woman 875 00:47:35,590 --> 00:47:38,279 Speaker 1: has to say, I've never seen these kids I've only 876 00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:41,319 Speaker 1: had for a couple years. That's horrifying to me to think. 877 00:47:41,820 --> 00:47:45,149 Speaker 1: Give her some hope. Give her some hope. So we've 878 00:47:45,190 --> 00:47:47,940 Speaker 1: got mechanisms to give people hope. Good. Nothing wrong with it. 879 00:47:48,190 --> 00:47:48,850 Speaker 1: Nothing wrong with it. 880 00:47:49,530 --> 00:47:53,450 Speaker 2: Semi-religion offers hope, but it's actually about truth. Is it 881 00:47:53,530 --> 00:47:55,740 Speaker 2: true or not? So if it's not true, then it's 882 00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:59,160 Speaker 2: false hope. If it's really true, it gives genuine hope. 883 00:47:59,480 --> 00:47:59,660 Speaker 1: No. 884 00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,200 Speaker 2: Like that's the basic question. Yeah. 885 00:48:02,300 --> 00:48:04,540 Speaker 1: So you can argue about the truth of it. We 886 00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:06,339 Speaker 1: can put that to the side for now and talk 887 00:48:06,380 --> 00:48:10,670 Speaker 1: about it a little bit later. In that instance... I 888 00:48:10,710 --> 00:48:14,090 Speaker 1: don't think we need to burden that woman with it 889 00:48:14,250 --> 00:48:16,830 Speaker 1: at that point. I think we just have to give 890 00:48:16,890 --> 00:48:20,260 Speaker 1: her the hope, the peace of mind, the peace of 891 00:48:20,300 --> 00:48:23,140 Speaker 1: mind that, that this isn't as good as it gets 892 00:48:23,660 --> 00:48:25,580 Speaker 1: for her at that moment. If this is good as 893 00:48:25,620 --> 00:48:29,120 Speaker 1: it gets, wow, that that's crummy life. That's a crummy life, right? 894 00:48:29,140 --> 00:48:30,920 Speaker 1: My kids don't make it past five. I'm probably going 895 00:48:30,940 --> 00:48:32,980 Speaker 1: to die at 23 myself. I might not even make 896 00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,250 Speaker 1: it out of the desert here. So, so I get, 897 00:48:36,390 --> 00:48:40,230 Speaker 1: I get it. I get the clinging of it. Whatever, 898 00:48:40,930 --> 00:48:45,870 Speaker 1: From my perspective has happened is the sense of hope 899 00:48:45,950 --> 00:48:52,420 Speaker 1: is now turned into trying to say that it's also true. 900 00:48:52,660 --> 00:48:56,460 Speaker 1: And that's when you lose me. That P. Oh, we 901 00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:58,520 Speaker 1: crossed over a line. I check out. 902 00:48:58,840 --> 00:48:59,040 Speaker 2: I don't. 903 00:48:59,780 --> 00:49:02,380 Speaker 1: We all have brains. I consider them to be computers. 904 00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:06,020 Speaker 1: I have different wiring and switches than you, right? You 905 00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:08,049 Speaker 1: and I turn some on or off, or I might 906 00:49:08,070 --> 00:49:10,950 Speaker 1: not even have the switches or vice versa. So as 907 00:49:11,050 --> 00:49:13,170 Speaker 1: curious as I may be to you and your audience, 908 00:49:13,650 --> 00:49:16,710 Speaker 1: can I also say you guys are equally curious to 909 00:49:16,750 --> 00:49:18,890 Speaker 1: me because I can't do what you do and you 910 00:49:18,930 --> 00:49:22,660 Speaker 1: can't do what I do. I would really like someday 911 00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:25,100 Speaker 1: to be able to just body swap, to just go, 912 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:28,859 Speaker 1: how does that work? Because I can't turn certain things off, Sean. 913 00:49:28,980 --> 00:49:32,820 Speaker 1: I can't. And you might go, how does he not? 914 00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:37,130 Speaker 1: It would be an interesting experiment to go, oh. That's interesting. 915 00:49:37,150 --> 00:49:39,890 Speaker 1: That's cool. I don't know. It would be a good experiment, 916 00:49:39,910 --> 00:49:41,799 Speaker 1: but it's never going to happen. So I have to 917 00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:45,100 Speaker 1: live with one simple fact. The name Todd only rhymes 918 00:49:45,140 --> 00:49:47,779 Speaker 1: with God. That's all I got. I got me. I 919 00:49:47,820 --> 00:49:49,160 Speaker 1: got me. I get to control me. 920 00:49:49,700 --> 00:49:52,880 Speaker 2: Okay, so the question about hope and truth. There's a 921 00:49:52,940 --> 00:49:56,200 Speaker 2: difference between the lady losing her child and the dramatic 922 00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:59,180 Speaker 2: scenario you laid out. Fair enough. I think a lot 923 00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,330 Speaker 2: of what she would conclude at that state would be 924 00:50:01,430 --> 00:50:05,359 Speaker 2: things that she's brought to it from before. Like she's 925 00:50:05,420 --> 00:50:08,000 Speaker 2: lived a certain life and she has certain expectations whether 926 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:09,399 Speaker 2: she believes in God or not. 927 00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:11,529 Speaker 1: Or her environment. Right. The environment she was in. 928 00:50:11,530 --> 00:50:15,810 Speaker 2: Sure. A host of factors. So if I hear you correctly, 929 00:50:15,830 --> 00:50:18,469 Speaker 2: it sounds like you're saying you think religion is invented 930 00:50:18,570 --> 00:50:21,910 Speaker 2: and it was some created. We needed hope, invented religion 931 00:50:21,969 --> 00:50:23,149 Speaker 2: to fulfill that hope. 932 00:50:23,450 --> 00:50:24,109 Speaker 1: Nothing wrong with that. 933 00:50:24,140 --> 00:50:24,640 Speaker 2: Is that fair? 934 00:50:24,660 --> 00:50:28,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. Again, I... I don't think people, 935 00:50:28,219 --> 00:50:32,280 Speaker 1: I think 97, 98% of people don't act with malice. 936 00:50:32,380 --> 00:50:34,700 Speaker 1: I think people do stuff, it might not work out, 937 00:50:34,780 --> 00:50:38,450 Speaker 1: but people do stuff with good intent, right? So good intent, 938 00:50:39,370 --> 00:50:42,230 Speaker 1: like I applaud good intent, like let's go. And then 939 00:50:42,330 --> 00:50:44,890 Speaker 1: along the way, we see it in businesses, we see 940 00:50:44,910 --> 00:50:50,520 Speaker 1: it in family interaction stuff, things sometimes get misinterpreted and 941 00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:54,520 Speaker 1: distort it and whatever else. Here's, I think, a flaw 942 00:50:54,540 --> 00:50:56,920 Speaker 1: that we have as adults when we're having a conversation. 943 00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:58,120 Speaker 1: You and I may have to do it a little 944 00:50:58,140 --> 00:51:00,420 Speaker 1: bit here. I think we have to define certain words. 945 00:51:00,860 --> 00:51:01,779 Speaker 2: Fair enough. 946 00:51:01,950 --> 00:51:05,230 Speaker 1: Because there's too many subjective words when people are talking. 947 00:51:05,650 --> 00:51:07,569 Speaker 1: And I think the problem that we have as adults 948 00:51:07,630 --> 00:51:09,970 Speaker 1: at times is we're using our definition of a word 949 00:51:10,489 --> 00:51:13,230 Speaker 1: and putting it on another person who grew up and 950 00:51:13,270 --> 00:51:16,049 Speaker 1: has a different definition, and it's not the same thing. 951 00:51:16,610 --> 00:51:22,169 Speaker 1: So let's just talk about a couple of easy ones. Big, smart, fast, intelligent. 952 00:51:22,750 --> 00:51:24,670 Speaker 1: You and I can go, if we're going to have 953 00:51:24,690 --> 00:51:27,410 Speaker 1: a debate on any one of those topics, let's define 954 00:51:27,510 --> 00:51:31,739 Speaker 1: first what big is to you. Tall. To some people, 955 00:51:31,780 --> 00:51:33,960 Speaker 1: anybody over 5'10 is tall. Not somebody else? No, you've 956 00:51:33,980 --> 00:51:36,130 Speaker 1: got to be 7'6. So you have to define it. 957 00:51:36,650 --> 00:51:38,589 Speaker 1: You have to define it because this is the piece 958 00:51:38,630 --> 00:51:41,210 Speaker 1: I tell people. I go, you actually think that human 959 00:51:41,230 --> 00:51:44,140 Speaker 1: being you're talking to has lived the same experience as you. 960 00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,680 Speaker 1: It's not true. If I was born in Alabama, I 961 00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:53,160 Speaker 1: concede right now, I would probably think differently. Not better 962 00:51:53,180 --> 00:51:57,730 Speaker 1: or worse, I would think differently. Why? Born in Alabama. 963 00:51:59,070 --> 00:52:02,390 Speaker 1: And there's a structure and an environment that's around me 964 00:52:02,410 --> 00:52:04,650 Speaker 1: that's going to form certain thoughts. And if I was 965 00:52:04,690 --> 00:52:08,240 Speaker 1: born in India or Pakistan... I would have even another 966 00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:13,420 Speaker 1: sort of thought process. I conceded, right? I didn't. I 967 00:52:13,460 --> 00:52:16,980 Speaker 1: grew up in whatever was the life that I've lived 968 00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:21,160 Speaker 1: with what's around me, and that's sort of how I 969 00:52:21,219 --> 00:52:23,140 Speaker 1: distilled the world for me personally. 970 00:52:24,260 --> 00:52:25,299 Speaker 2: So let me come back to the idea. I think 971 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,330 Speaker 2: there's a lot of things in religion that make sense 972 00:52:27,390 --> 00:52:30,169 Speaker 2: that they're invented. I think we could point towards some. 973 00:52:31,180 --> 00:52:33,180 Speaker 2: One of the reasons I'm a Christian, because I think 974 00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:36,270 Speaker 2: there are certain factors that nobody in their right mind 975 00:52:36,550 --> 00:52:40,310 Speaker 2: would invent. Things like the Trinity. Why would you invent 976 00:52:40,350 --> 00:52:43,960 Speaker 2: that God is triune, for starters? It's difficult to understand. 977 00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:47,940 Speaker 2: It stretches the mind. Wow, Sean. 978 00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:51,290 Speaker 1: You haven't read some of my comic books. Come on, 979 00:52:51,300 --> 00:52:54,950 Speaker 1: you're selling yourself way too much. way short. If you 980 00:52:55,010 --> 00:52:58,750 Speaker 1: think that stuff in the Bible is good stuff, like, dude, 981 00:52:58,850 --> 00:53:01,450 Speaker 1: I'll come up with ten times. There's been a thousand people. 982 00:53:01,469 --> 00:53:04,250 Speaker 1: We can come up with crazy all day long, man. 983 00:53:04,350 --> 00:53:06,170 Speaker 2: Okay, so there's a difference between crazy. 984 00:53:06,210 --> 00:53:09,549 Speaker 1: Not crazy. I mean cool ideas. I'm sorry. My bad. 985 00:53:09,590 --> 00:53:12,410 Speaker 2: But that assumes the Trinity is a cool idea that 986 00:53:12,450 --> 00:53:15,170 Speaker 2: somebody's inventing. My point is, that's just one example. I 987 00:53:15,170 --> 00:53:17,549 Speaker 2: would say things like the idea of a Savior that 988 00:53:17,610 --> 00:53:24,370 Speaker 2: comes who's crucified shamefully was the complete opposite of expectations 989 00:53:24,810 --> 00:53:27,110 Speaker 2: and would be the worst kind of marketing in a 990 00:53:27,170 --> 00:53:31,300 Speaker 2: sense conceivable. Teachings of Jesus, like if you just look 991 00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:34,620 Speaker 2: at a woman lustfully or have an angry thought, you 992 00:53:34,940 --> 00:53:39,720 Speaker 2: are guilty of adultery or murder. There are certain things 993 00:53:39,739 --> 00:53:43,830 Speaker 2: that are less than intuitive and not just crazy built 994 00:53:43,890 --> 00:53:46,470 Speaker 2: into Christianity. If you're going to make up a religion 995 00:53:46,489 --> 00:53:49,900 Speaker 2: and die to yourself daily. It's like, that's not exactly 996 00:53:50,100 --> 00:53:52,569 Speaker 2: getting followers. If you want to be first, be last. 997 00:53:53,489 --> 00:53:54,989 Speaker 2: So that's one of the things that at least gives 998 00:53:55,030 --> 00:53:58,410 Speaker 2: me pause to assume that it's just invented for hope. 999 00:53:58,430 --> 00:53:59,930 Speaker 2: Give me your thoughts. 1000 00:54:03,110 --> 00:54:06,950 Speaker 1: You just said something that actually put a smile on 1001 00:54:06,989 --> 00:54:09,200 Speaker 1: my face. And so I'm going to applaud you for it. 1002 00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:13,040 Speaker 1: Because I can say that I've had conversations before with 1003 00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:18,750 Speaker 1: other people and they don't. you at least gave the phrase, 1004 00:54:19,630 --> 00:54:25,379 Speaker 1: gives me pause. In all honesty, Sean, when I've had 1005 00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:29,060 Speaker 1: any sort of meaningful conversation with somebody that's really, like, 1006 00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:35,600 Speaker 1: just go to 99.9% there and leave at least that 1007 00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:39,839 Speaker 1: much doubt. Just give me that. But I run into, unfortunately, 1008 00:54:40,350 --> 00:54:45,090 Speaker 1: People who go, it's 100%. It's true. There is no doubt. 1009 00:54:46,070 --> 00:54:51,770 Speaker 1: And that's, I can't go there. And here's why. I agree. 1010 00:54:52,510 --> 00:54:56,360 Speaker 1: Here's why I can't go there. I'm just going to 1011 00:54:56,390 --> 00:54:59,600 Speaker 1: just use the reasoning and rational that I have right here. 1012 00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:05,050 Speaker 1: It can't be true. Because we're here thousands of years 1013 00:55:05,130 --> 00:55:08,670 Speaker 1: later with human beings. And there is not one God. 1014 00:55:08,790 --> 00:55:13,070 Speaker 1: Like if there was empirical truth to anybody's God. Not yours. Anybody's. 1015 00:55:13,250 --> 00:55:17,260 Speaker 1: Anybody's on the planet. Empirical truth. And let's define empirical. 1016 00:55:18,070 --> 00:55:21,580 Speaker 1: The definition of empirical truth is that every human being 1017 00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:26,540 Speaker 1: would come to the same result. Two plus two for 1018 00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:32,000 Speaker 1: every human being is four. The bump between our two eyes, 1019 00:55:32,860 --> 00:55:35,109 Speaker 1: once you define it, is a nose. And if you 1020 00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:38,530 Speaker 1: put your hand in fire long enough, unprotected, it will burn. 1021 00:55:38,810 --> 00:55:43,430 Speaker 1: There are empirical things that exist that are out there, 1022 00:55:44,050 --> 00:55:47,870 Speaker 1: which means that if there was any empirical truth to 1023 00:55:48,170 --> 00:55:51,910 Speaker 1: anybody's God at any time in history, there would only 1024 00:55:51,950 --> 00:55:54,200 Speaker 1: be one religion on this entire planet because we'd all 1025 00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:58,400 Speaker 1: come to the same conclusion. We haven't. And we don't, 1026 00:55:58,980 --> 00:56:01,100 Speaker 1: so we have to start with the premise, I do, 1027 00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:05,380 Speaker 1: that there's no empirical truth. Okay. If you agree with 1028 00:56:05,420 --> 00:56:09,049 Speaker 1: me on that definition, then we can go from there 1029 00:56:09,110 --> 00:56:09,890 Speaker 1: and break it down. 1030 00:56:09,910 --> 00:56:12,120 Speaker 2: Should we talk about that first before we go any further? 1031 00:56:12,140 --> 00:56:12,589 Speaker 1: Sure, sure, sure. 1032 00:56:12,610 --> 00:56:16,150 Speaker 2: So I understand what is meant by empirical evidence, like 1033 00:56:16,230 --> 00:56:20,610 Speaker 2: pointing towards 2 plus 2 equaling 4, or some physical 1034 00:56:20,830 --> 00:56:24,410 Speaker 2: burning that took place. Ow, that hurts. But I would argue, 1035 00:56:24,430 --> 00:56:26,910 Speaker 2: I think this... I would have a different view of 1036 00:56:26,969 --> 00:56:29,549 Speaker 2: what it means to be human and the cost of 1037 00:56:29,590 --> 00:56:33,090 Speaker 2: following God. Like believing two plus two equals four costs nothing. 1038 00:56:33,890 --> 00:56:36,570 Speaker 2: We agree with that. It's obvious. Helps us flourish. Realizing 1039 00:56:36,610 --> 00:56:39,190 Speaker 2: that doesn't hurt. It's obvious. Keep your hand away from 1040 00:56:39,230 --> 00:56:42,700 Speaker 2: a fire to function. But when it comes to God, 1041 00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:46,239 Speaker 2: now it's like you've got to die to yourself. You've 1042 00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:49,200 Speaker 2: got to repent of your sins. So just like you said, 1043 00:56:49,260 --> 00:56:53,000 Speaker 2: you can have motivation to believe in God. You need hope. 1044 00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,220 Speaker 2: There can be a lot of motivation to not believe 1045 00:56:56,260 --> 00:56:58,520 Speaker 2: in God. And I don't have a clue where you 1046 00:56:58,540 --> 00:57:00,080 Speaker 2: stand on this, but a number of people, even like 1047 00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:04,540 Speaker 2: Aldous Huxley, agnostic, somewhere maybe close to atheist, is like, 1048 00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:07,780 Speaker 2: we revolted against Christianity because of the way we wanted 1049 00:57:07,820 --> 00:57:11,580 Speaker 2: to live our lives. So there can be psychological motivation 1050 00:57:11,700 --> 00:57:13,960 Speaker 2: on all sides. And I think I would, number one, 1051 00:57:13,980 --> 00:57:16,920 Speaker 2: I would say I think there's really good evidence for God. 1052 00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:17,940 Speaker 2: But let me frame it. 1053 00:57:18,580 --> 00:57:21,480 Speaker 1: Let me respond to it. I agree with you. 1054 00:57:22,260 --> 00:57:22,700 Speaker 2: In what sense? 1055 00:57:23,340 --> 00:57:27,550 Speaker 1: Everything you just said, here's what, but it's not provable 1056 00:57:27,850 --> 00:57:31,370 Speaker 1: what you just said. That's the piece. That's the, that's 1057 00:57:31,470 --> 00:57:34,130 Speaker 1: the line. So it's like, so I get, yes, yes, 1058 00:57:34,310 --> 00:57:37,360 Speaker 1: all of that. Yes, yes, yes. But it's not provable 1059 00:57:37,390 --> 00:57:41,020 Speaker 1: what you just said. So it's like, there's no, it's 1060 00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:44,280 Speaker 1: the proof part that then falls apart. And we know 1061 00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:47,360 Speaker 1: because we're, nobody's been able to prove it. So we 1062 00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:50,030 Speaker 1: know that to be the fact that's sitting here. Cause here's, 1063 00:57:50,110 --> 00:57:52,760 Speaker 1: here's an interesting thing. Sean, and then I'll let you 1064 00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:56,740 Speaker 1: go have your question. It's an interesting, from my point 1065 00:57:56,780 --> 00:58:00,360 Speaker 1: of view, and this is weird, because again, this is 1066 00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:02,940 Speaker 1: why I wish people could switch. People say, why don't 1067 00:58:02,980 --> 00:58:03,700 Speaker 1: you believe in God? 1068 00:58:04,820 --> 00:58:04,980 Speaker 2: Right? 1069 00:58:05,020 --> 00:58:09,040 Speaker 1: It's an easy go-to question, right? I think it's the 1070 00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:12,660 Speaker 1: wrong question for me. I think the question is, why 1071 00:58:12,700 --> 00:58:22,220 Speaker 1: do you? My short answer is math. Math. Zero empirical evidence. Zero. Okay, 1072 00:58:23,220 --> 00:58:26,520 Speaker 1: now you go and you tell me why you believe 100% 1073 00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:31,160 Speaker 1: of something that's zero, but go. And it's weird that 1074 00:58:31,340 --> 00:58:34,480 Speaker 1: I'm the odd guy, given that I believe in the zero. 1075 00:58:34,500 --> 00:58:37,919 Speaker 1: It's just because there's no proof. That's why, like, there's 1076 00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:41,730 Speaker 1: no proof, empirical proof. There's zero of it. You keep 1077 00:58:41,770 --> 00:58:45,570 Speaker 1: trying to tell me that it's 100% true when it's zero. 1078 00:58:45,790 --> 00:58:48,670 Speaker 1: So I don't know why I'm the oddball in this question, 1079 00:58:48,750 --> 00:58:51,610 Speaker 1: but I ask the question in reverse. Why do you 1080 00:58:51,670 --> 00:58:54,590 Speaker 1: believe in the 100%? You don't. You actually said doubt, 1081 00:58:54,670 --> 00:58:57,130 Speaker 1: so good on you. But I know people that believe 1082 00:58:57,150 --> 00:58:58,790 Speaker 1: in the 100% when it's a zero. 1083 00:58:59,110 --> 00:59:02,250 Speaker 2: I agree with you. I think there's people who say 100% 1084 00:59:02,250 --> 00:59:04,490 Speaker 2: God doesn't exist, and I go, that's nonsense. 1085 00:59:04,490 --> 00:59:04,710 Speaker 1: No, no. 1086 00:59:04,730 --> 00:59:05,740 Speaker 2: How do you know 100%? 1087 00:59:05,740 --> 00:59:06,260 Speaker 1: Oh, no. 1088 00:59:06,260 --> 00:59:09,100 Speaker 2: 100% God does exist. Some people might believe that. That's 1089 00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:11,100 Speaker 2: not me. So you're talking. 1090 00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:13,600 Speaker 1: About proving God. Just so we're clear, here's my answer 1091 00:59:13,620 --> 00:59:15,200 Speaker 1: to almost every big question. I don't know. 1092 00:59:15,900 --> 00:59:17,939 Speaker 2: That's more agnostic than, which is fair. 1093 00:59:18,060 --> 00:59:18,400 Speaker 1: That's fine. 1094 00:59:19,060 --> 00:59:21,850 Speaker 2: So when we talk about proof, I'm not talking about 1095 00:59:21,910 --> 00:59:24,650 Speaker 2: like 2 plus 2 equals 4. We can prove that 1096 00:59:24,750 --> 00:59:29,800 Speaker 2: definitively 100% show it. Mm-hmm. Most things in life, like 1097 00:59:29,860 --> 00:59:32,960 Speaker 2: a court of law, is not prove 100%. It's like 1098 00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:36,620 Speaker 2: beyond a reasonable doubt, where does the data point to? 1099 00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:38,320 Speaker 2: So for me as a whole, when I look at 1100 00:59:38,340 --> 00:59:40,260 Speaker 2: the world, and we could talk about some of the 1101 00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:43,100 Speaker 2: pieces of evidence I find compelling, you can give me 1102 00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:44,820 Speaker 2: your two cents, but I'm not saying do I have 100% 1103 00:59:44,820 --> 00:59:48,260 Speaker 2: that this is the case. I look at the world 1104 00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:49,780 Speaker 2: and go, what makes the best sense of how we're 1105 00:59:49,860 --> 00:59:52,000 Speaker 2: here and our moral sense and the origin of life 1106 00:59:52,060 --> 00:59:55,500 Speaker 2: and the fine-tuning of the universe and the math? What 1107 00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:56,780 Speaker 2: makes the most sense? 1108 00:59:57,460 --> 00:59:57,820 Speaker 1: For you. 1109 00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:00,700 Speaker 2: That's what I mean. Well, not– so when you say 1110 01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:04,280 Speaker 2: by you– No, for you. We each have to assess this, 1111 01:00:04,700 --> 01:00:07,710 Speaker 2: of course, through a certain grid, right? We analyze. But 1112 01:00:07,730 --> 01:00:10,910 Speaker 2: not for me. I'm talking about what's true in the world. Again, 1113 01:00:10,930 --> 01:00:13,330 Speaker 2: if we had a court case, you wouldn't say, well, 1114 01:00:13,350 --> 01:00:15,290 Speaker 2: is the person guilty or not for you? You'd say, well, 1115 01:00:15,310 --> 01:00:18,410 Speaker 2: where does the evidence point? Is the person guilty or innocent? 1116 01:00:18,490 --> 01:00:21,730 Speaker 2: Do we have sufficient evidence, not 100% proof, to point 1117 01:00:21,750 --> 01:00:27,760 Speaker 2: towards that– person being guilty or at least not guilty. 1118 01:00:28,190 --> 01:00:32,390 Speaker 2: So it's not about certainty for me. I would, any 1119 01:00:32,510 --> 01:00:34,650 Speaker 2: Christians who say it's about that, like you, I would 1120 01:00:34,850 --> 01:00:37,210 Speaker 2: have a hard time with that as well. So the 1121 01:00:37,250 --> 01:00:40,210 Speaker 2: question is like, are there things in the world that 1122 01:00:40,470 --> 01:00:44,050 Speaker 2: point towards God? And I, in fact, I'd love to 1123 01:00:44,090 --> 01:00:45,280 Speaker 2: get into it a little bit and just get your 1124 01:00:45,460 --> 01:00:50,840 Speaker 2: sense on this. I recently interviewed a hundred apologists, Christians 1125 01:00:50,900 --> 01:00:58,230 Speaker 2: who are defending the Christian faith. So these are professors, scientists, philosophers, theologians, historians. 1126 01:00:59,230 --> 01:01:01,650 Speaker 2: And I asked them this question. I said, what do 1127 01:01:01,690 --> 01:01:04,890 Speaker 2: you think is the single best piece of evidence that 1128 01:01:04,910 --> 01:01:08,730 Speaker 2: God exists? And I got dozens and dozens of answers, 1129 01:01:09,210 --> 01:01:11,770 Speaker 2: but a few of them kind of fit into bigger categories. 1130 01:01:13,030 --> 01:01:14,850 Speaker 2: Does that make sense? And I did like a six, 1131 01:01:14,870 --> 01:01:17,610 Speaker 2: seven minute video on this. Some were unique arguments. Like 1132 01:01:17,650 --> 01:01:20,510 Speaker 2: if you actually said beauty points towards God, we hinted 1133 01:01:20,530 --> 01:01:23,240 Speaker 2: at that earlier. But two of the top ones I 1134 01:01:23,300 --> 01:01:25,740 Speaker 2: love your take on. One of them is what's called 1135 01:01:25,780 --> 01:01:29,080 Speaker 2: the moral argument. And if I can, the way I 1136 01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:31,240 Speaker 2: thought about this is I've read, spawned a lot of 1137 01:01:31,300 --> 01:01:37,320 Speaker 2: your comics. There's good and evil. There's justice and injustice. 1138 01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:41,930 Speaker 2: There's revenge and love. These are moral categories. 1139 01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:45,770 Speaker 1: That all existed pre-Bible, correct. Okay, so. 1140 01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:49,240 Speaker 2: For the record, I don't ground my morality in the Bible. 1141 01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:51,160 Speaker 2: That's a separate question. 1142 01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:54,960 Speaker 1: Many people on your side do, though. I don't. 1143 01:01:55,060 --> 01:01:57,640 Speaker 2: I actually think most don't ground it in the Bible. 1144 01:01:57,740 --> 01:01:59,340 Speaker 2: We would say the Bible expresses it. 1145 01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:00,710 Speaker 1: But it's not what grounds it. Have you heard this one, though? 1146 01:02:00,730 --> 01:02:04,110 Speaker 1: This is an interesting one, too. Where do you get 1147 01:02:04,150 --> 01:02:04,990 Speaker 1: your morals, Todd? 1148 01:02:05,830 --> 01:02:06,010 Speaker 2: What? 1149 01:02:06,710 --> 01:02:09,090 Speaker 1: Again, I think it's the wrong question. 1150 01:02:09,150 --> 01:02:10,830 Speaker 2: Okay, so that's the wrong question. Let me push back 1151 01:02:10,930 --> 01:02:12,230 Speaker 2: for fun on this one because you told me to 1152 01:02:12,250 --> 01:02:14,830 Speaker 2: push back. The question is not where do you get 1153 01:02:14,890 --> 01:02:17,130 Speaker 2: your morals. That's not the question. 1154 01:02:17,250 --> 01:02:18,990 Speaker 1: No, no, no. But I've had people ask that question. 1155 01:02:19,070 --> 01:02:22,130 Speaker 2: And that's like the people with certainty, that's the wrong question. Yeah. 1156 01:02:22,610 --> 01:02:23,690 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is the wrong question. 1157 01:02:23,790 --> 01:02:26,950 Speaker 2: So the right question is if things like– I think 1158 01:02:26,990 --> 01:02:29,230 Speaker 2: the right question is if there's good and evil, justice 1159 01:02:29,290 --> 01:02:32,540 Speaker 2: and injustice, revenge and love, which seem to be objective 1160 01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:35,840 Speaker 2: moral categories. I mean you talk about Spawn, for example, 1161 01:02:35,900 --> 01:02:41,840 Speaker 2: one of the characters, Al Simmons, looks at a child abuser– pedophile, 1162 01:02:41,980 --> 01:02:44,300 Speaker 2: or even just a dad who abandons his kid and 1163 01:02:44,340 --> 01:02:48,230 Speaker 2: is like, how dare you do that? You've done something wrong, 1164 01:02:48,370 --> 01:02:53,030 Speaker 2: like objectively wrong. As an atheist, if you're four miles 1165 01:02:53,170 --> 01:02:58,450 Speaker 2: beyond spirituality, not where do you get your morals, but 1166 01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:02,300 Speaker 2: how do you account for justice and injustice, good and evil, 1167 01:03:03,060 --> 01:03:06,180 Speaker 2: actually being features of the universe in which we live? 1168 01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:09,120 Speaker 1: It's inherent. I think 97% of people inherently are good. 1169 01:03:11,010 --> 01:03:14,030 Speaker 1: I think people come out of the womb not acting evil. 1170 01:03:14,070 --> 01:03:17,190 Speaker 1: I think they're just inherently good. You think locks on 1171 01:03:17,230 --> 01:03:20,650 Speaker 1: our front door stop people from entering our houses? Every 1172 01:03:20,830 --> 01:03:23,180 Speaker 1: door on every neighborhood I could get into a house 1173 01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:26,820 Speaker 1: in five seconds. We just are good people and we 1174 01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:32,980 Speaker 1: do things inherently good. Why? For me, not for any 1175 01:03:33,020 --> 01:03:36,160 Speaker 1: kind of gift. And the gift for most people is 1176 01:03:36,180 --> 01:03:40,490 Speaker 1: the afterlife. I don't need that. It's because it's just 1177 01:03:41,850 --> 01:03:46,700 Speaker 1: The inherent natural right thing to do. This may sound silly. 1178 01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:49,860 Speaker 1: I don't mean to simplify it that much. But there's 1179 01:03:49,900 --> 01:03:52,180 Speaker 1: a Christmas song. And I think it's got a great 1180 01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:55,910 Speaker 1: line in it. Be good for goodness sake. You don't 1181 01:03:55,990 --> 01:03:58,390 Speaker 1: need any other reason to be good other than just 1182 01:03:58,450 --> 01:04:02,450 Speaker 1: be good. Because it's natural. It's way more natural to 1183 01:04:02,490 --> 01:04:05,920 Speaker 1: be good than it is to not. I think you 1184 01:04:05,940 --> 01:04:10,160 Speaker 1: got to work at being nasty, right? Being a bad person. 1185 01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:12,380 Speaker 1: I think that's way too much work. It's way easier 1186 01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:15,300 Speaker 1: to smile and say nice things to people and be charming. 1187 01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:17,840 Speaker 1: And I think this is what gives me my hope 1188 01:04:18,100 --> 01:04:22,840 Speaker 1: is that every, I think most of us, 98% of 1189 01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:25,500 Speaker 1: us are just at our core, just good people. I 1190 01:04:25,540 --> 01:04:26,620 Speaker 1: think we're good people, right? 1191 01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:28,400 Speaker 2: So in part, let me push back to what I 1192 01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:30,500 Speaker 2: think the real question is. The question is not how 1193 01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:32,620 Speaker 2: do we know right and wrong? I think you're right 1194 01:04:32,660 --> 01:04:36,030 Speaker 2: that it's inherent within us. Now you might say that 1195 01:04:36,090 --> 01:04:38,390 Speaker 2: comes from evolution. I might say God wired it into us. 1196 01:04:38,430 --> 01:04:40,750 Speaker 2: That's a separate question. We agree that we have inherent 1197 01:04:40,810 --> 01:04:44,170 Speaker 2: sense of right and wrong. But when you say be 1198 01:04:44,250 --> 01:04:48,380 Speaker 2: good for goodness sake, it seems to imply that there's 1199 01:04:48,450 --> 01:04:50,680 Speaker 2: such a thing as good within itself. 1200 01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:53,800 Speaker 1: And we each get to define that. We each individually 1201 01:04:53,820 --> 01:04:54,860 Speaker 1: get to define it. 1202 01:04:55,140 --> 01:04:59,660 Speaker 2: Then it's subjective. That would be a relativist ethic. So 1203 01:04:59,700 --> 01:05:03,750 Speaker 2: if you have a subjective morality... Why shame the father 1204 01:05:03,870 --> 01:05:06,930 Speaker 2: who abandoned his kids? He goes, Todd, that's what I 1205 01:05:06,950 --> 01:05:08,230 Speaker 2: think is good. That's what I want to do. Why 1206 01:05:08,250 --> 01:05:10,990 Speaker 2: are you shaming me? That's just your subjective preference. 1207 01:05:11,250 --> 01:05:11,590 Speaker 1: Correct. 1208 01:05:12,650 --> 01:05:14,630 Speaker 2: So you don't think it's wrong for a father to 1209 01:05:14,670 --> 01:05:16,690 Speaker 2: abandon his kids within itself? 1210 01:05:17,310 --> 01:05:21,790 Speaker 1: No. If you're asking do I at times pass judgment 1211 01:05:21,830 --> 01:05:23,530 Speaker 1: on people, of course I do. Of course I do. 1212 01:05:23,550 --> 01:05:25,790 Speaker 1: I'm as flawed as any other human being. I try 1213 01:05:25,830 --> 01:05:36,330 Speaker 1: to limit it to disrespectful people. Now, again, who's disrespectful? 1214 01:05:36,550 --> 01:05:40,070 Speaker 1: Todd's definition. Everything is always going to be my definition 1215 01:05:40,090 --> 01:05:41,990 Speaker 1: of it. Why? Because it's the only person I get 1216 01:05:42,010 --> 01:05:45,630 Speaker 1: to basically control. So, yes. So, in that case, somebody 1217 01:05:45,650 --> 01:05:48,050 Speaker 1: can make an argument going, hey, here's the reasons why 1218 01:05:48,090 --> 01:05:50,610 Speaker 1: the dad didn't pay alimony and he left his kids. Like, 1219 01:05:51,410 --> 01:05:54,360 Speaker 1: you can make it. You can make it. So, I 1220 01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:59,020 Speaker 1: just have my definitions of certain things that, to me, 1221 01:05:59,220 --> 01:06:04,370 Speaker 1: I just go, no. So, why forgive an adulterer? No. No. No, 1222 01:06:04,470 --> 01:06:08,190 Speaker 1: I won't. Why? Why? Oh, this is easy. Do you 1223 01:06:08,230 --> 01:06:12,770 Speaker 1: know how many lies you have to tell? And each 1224 01:06:12,830 --> 01:06:15,340 Speaker 1: time you tell a lie as an adult, you know 1225 01:06:15,380 --> 01:06:19,500 Speaker 1: you're lying. And theoretically, in the basic of like what's 1226 01:06:19,540 --> 01:06:22,880 Speaker 1: sort of right and wrong, telling a lie to your family, 1227 01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:25,180 Speaker 1: your friends, or somebody so that you can go do 1228 01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:27,640 Speaker 1: something that gives you personal pleasure, and you do that 1229 01:06:27,700 --> 01:06:32,220 Speaker 1: for two years, you told thousands of lies. That means 1230 01:06:32,280 --> 01:06:36,230 Speaker 1: you did something knowingly wrong. sort of wrong a thousand times, 1231 01:06:36,790 --> 01:06:40,430 Speaker 1: and you kept doing it. That's different than somebody who 1232 01:06:40,510 --> 01:06:43,410 Speaker 1: maybe got drunk one time and ran somebody over. That 1233 01:06:43,450 --> 01:06:46,910 Speaker 1: was a one-time thing. I've got a lot more latitude, oddly, 1234 01:06:47,140 --> 01:06:51,800 Speaker 1: for that person than somebody who's repetitive in the wrong. 1235 01:06:52,020 --> 01:06:54,600 Speaker 1: And knowing as an adult, come on, man, as an adult, 1236 01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:59,160 Speaker 1: I give a certain level to adults. I expect, I 1237 01:06:59,200 --> 01:07:04,680 Speaker 1: personally expect a certain decorum from adults. at times, and 1238 01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:08,340 Speaker 1: I think we lead and give bad examples to the 1239 01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:12,160 Speaker 1: youth with our behavior as adults. Shame on us. Shame 1240 01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:12,860 Speaker 1: on us at times. 1241 01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:15,240 Speaker 2: So it sounds like you're willing to shame certain people. 1242 01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:17,000 Speaker 2: I'm not criticizing you for that. I think some. 1243 01:07:16,900 --> 01:07:20,160 Speaker 1: People should actually. I'm not here to shame them. I'm 1244 01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:23,240 Speaker 1: saying if I was in charge, if I was in charge, 1245 01:07:23,620 --> 01:07:26,400 Speaker 1: if you changed it to God, not Todd, then I 1246 01:07:26,420 --> 01:07:30,010 Speaker 1: would have, I'd have different rules. I'd have different rules. 1247 01:07:30,470 --> 01:07:32,270 Speaker 2: Okay, so let's come back to that. What I'm trying 1248 01:07:32,290 --> 01:07:35,480 Speaker 2: to get at is if There's a real thing like 1249 01:07:35,580 --> 01:07:40,080 Speaker 2: justice and injustice where if it's all just subjective and opinion. 1250 01:07:40,660 --> 01:07:42,640 Speaker 2: And I'm sensing a certain tension. It isn't. 1251 01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:44,400 Speaker 1: It isn't because we have laws. 1252 01:07:44,820 --> 01:07:46,740 Speaker 2: Let me clarify and then you come back. So there's 1253 01:07:46,780 --> 01:07:51,410 Speaker 2: a certain tension between– it sounds like you're saying I 1254 01:07:51,430 --> 01:07:53,590 Speaker 2: don't want to judge certain people because that would be 1255 01:07:53,650 --> 01:07:56,490 Speaker 2: a wrong thing to do. We shouldn't do that. But 1256 01:07:56,510 --> 01:07:59,790 Speaker 2: there's also really strong condemnations within the comic book, and 1257 01:07:59,870 --> 01:08:04,550 Speaker 2: I agree with it. Murderers, pedophiles– Like if it's all subjective, 1258 01:08:04,630 --> 01:08:07,990 Speaker 2: then they're not actually doing anything wrong. They just have 1259 01:08:08,010 --> 01:08:11,870 Speaker 2: their own opinions about reality. You don't like it, but 1260 01:08:11,910 --> 01:08:14,890 Speaker 2: it's not wrong. So it seems to me that an 1261 01:08:15,030 --> 01:08:17,990 Speaker 2: atheist has one of two options. I can tell them 1262 01:08:18,010 --> 01:08:20,390 Speaker 2: if I'm wrong. They could say, yeah, there's real right 1263 01:08:20,410 --> 01:08:25,770 Speaker 2: and wrong, love, justice, injustice. There's a way we should 1264 01:08:25,850 --> 01:08:29,350 Speaker 2: live built into the world. But then they're happy to 1265 01:08:29,390 --> 01:08:32,910 Speaker 2: explain right and wrong without there being a God. Or 1266 01:08:32,950 --> 01:08:36,350 Speaker 2: the atheist goes, yeah, there's no God. It's all subjective. 1267 01:08:36,390 --> 01:08:37,790 Speaker 2: It's a matter of opinion. 1268 01:08:37,990 --> 01:08:38,470 Speaker 1: It's God. 1269 01:08:38,600 --> 01:08:41,140 Speaker 2: It's somebody else. But when that falls, then you can't 1270 01:08:41,360 --> 01:08:45,240 Speaker 2: literally say any behavior, even the most egregious stuff we 1271 01:08:45,260 --> 01:08:48,160 Speaker 2: could think in, that you rightly condemn in your comic 1272 01:08:48,200 --> 01:08:52,809 Speaker 2: books is actually wrong. That's what I think the tension is. 1273 01:08:52,970 --> 01:08:54,429 Speaker 2: and for me it's wrong. 1274 01:08:54,270 --> 01:08:58,960 Speaker 1: For that person though it's wrong for that person so 1275 01:08:59,140 --> 01:09:02,340 Speaker 1: let's stay with it the struggle for Al Simmons in 1276 01:09:02,380 --> 01:09:06,240 Speaker 1: this comic book isn't that he has the answers quite 1277 01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:13,110 Speaker 1: the opposite it's who are you Al Simmons spawn to 1278 01:09:13,210 --> 01:09:17,610 Speaker 1: even met out these decisions who are you you're not 1279 01:09:17,710 --> 01:09:20,980 Speaker 1: judge jury and executioner here What gave you the right? 1280 01:09:21,050 --> 01:09:24,410 Speaker 1: You start playing that game, Al Simmons, you become a 1281 01:09:24,450 --> 01:09:28,769 Speaker 1: de facto quasi-God yourself. The thing that you're trying to 1282 01:09:28,850 --> 01:09:34,420 Speaker 1: fight against. And that's the struggle. The struggle is going, oh. 1283 01:09:36,229 --> 01:09:41,310 Speaker 1: So how do I do this and not become like them? 1284 01:09:41,990 --> 01:09:45,440 Speaker 1: And the answer is that's the journey of this character. 1285 01:09:45,540 --> 01:09:49,200 Speaker 1: That's the journey of us as human beings. We constantly 1286 01:09:49,300 --> 01:09:52,559 Speaker 1: are trying to find balance and struggle to come up 1287 01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:59,589 Speaker 1: with these ideas that make sense for us and don't interfere, hopefully, 1288 01:09:59,890 --> 01:10:03,740 Speaker 1: with the peace and the paths of other people We 1289 01:10:03,770 --> 01:10:06,389 Speaker 1: get there. But if I start asserting, what I don't 1290 01:10:06,450 --> 01:10:08,910 Speaker 1: do is I don't assert it on anybody. I don't 1291 01:10:08,970 --> 01:10:11,170 Speaker 1: assert it on anybody. I don't have the authority. I 1292 01:10:11,189 --> 01:10:13,130 Speaker 1: don't have the power. If you want to make me 1293 01:10:13,290 --> 01:10:15,610 Speaker 1: the king of the state, shoot, I'll change a bunch 1294 01:10:15,650 --> 01:10:17,950 Speaker 1: of laws tomorrow. Yes, I get to make it in 1295 01:10:18,090 --> 01:10:22,210 Speaker 1: my name. Shoot, tomorrow. I don't have that authority. If 1296 01:10:22,229 --> 01:10:25,710 Speaker 1: I've got one regret, I don't live with regret. If 1297 01:10:25,729 --> 01:10:28,530 Speaker 1: I've got one regret, it's that I wasn't born 2,000 1298 01:10:28,530 --> 01:10:33,479 Speaker 1: years ago or 1,500 years ago. Hmm. Because when you 1299 01:10:33,500 --> 01:10:36,960 Speaker 1: had a dispute and you felt strong and your convictions 1300 01:10:37,460 --> 01:10:40,860 Speaker 1: were at your core, the way you resolved it was 1301 01:10:41,040 --> 01:10:43,360 Speaker 1: you take a blade and I take a blade and 1302 01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:47,660 Speaker 1: one of us doesn't walk away. We don't get that anymore. 1303 01:10:48,479 --> 01:10:49,520 Speaker 1: We don't get that anymore. 1304 01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:54,110 Speaker 2: There's no honor killing and defending your rights. Right. Fair enough. 1305 01:10:54,150 --> 01:10:56,650 Speaker 1: Right. Because there's too many things that people can hide 1306 01:10:56,689 --> 01:11:00,850 Speaker 1: behind now today. Right? Corporate backing, lawyers suing, doing this, 1307 01:11:00,870 --> 01:11:03,349 Speaker 1: taking market shares away from you, all this other silly stuff. 1308 01:11:03,370 --> 01:11:05,590 Speaker 1: And it's like, you feel that strong? Let's go out 1309 01:11:05,630 --> 01:11:08,650 Speaker 1: to the field. Right? But it's like, ah, like that said, 1310 01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:11,240 Speaker 1: I just like, oh, man, I should never watch Braveheart 1311 01:11:11,260 --> 01:11:14,160 Speaker 1: because I just like, oh, man, I missed out. So. 1312 01:11:14,740 --> 01:11:15,700 Speaker 2: So here's the way I look at it, and then 1313 01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:18,299 Speaker 2: we'll move on from this. There's a difference between somebody, 1314 01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:20,760 Speaker 2: you saying you have the authority to make a law, 1315 01:11:20,939 --> 01:11:26,150 Speaker 2: like a legal law, and there being a moral law. Now, 1316 01:11:26,270 --> 01:11:30,750 Speaker 2: our legal law should reflect a higher moral law, or 1317 01:11:30,810 --> 01:11:34,490 Speaker 2: those legal laws are all just prudential, and we're coming 1318 01:11:34,650 --> 01:11:37,230 Speaker 2: up with them, and they could have been differently. Spahn 1319 01:11:37,290 --> 01:11:39,890 Speaker 2: seems to operate in a world in which there are 1320 01:11:40,090 --> 01:11:44,760 Speaker 2: certain moral laws that Like he kills and then he 1321 01:11:44,850 --> 01:11:47,809 Speaker 2: feels bad about it at times. But then other times 1322 01:11:47,850 --> 01:11:50,790 Speaker 2: he kills a character who's a pedophile and we're all like, yeah, 1323 01:11:50,810 --> 01:11:53,750 Speaker 2: he did the right thing. So what to me makes 1324 01:11:53,810 --> 01:11:55,729 Speaker 2: brilliant about the character is he's trying to figure out 1325 01:11:55,770 --> 01:11:57,790 Speaker 2: who he is. He's trying to understand what it kind 1326 01:11:57,830 --> 01:12:00,139 Speaker 2: of means to be a hero and do what's right 1327 01:12:00,240 --> 01:12:02,700 Speaker 2: and follow the things that he loves. But that only 1328 01:12:02,740 --> 01:12:05,740 Speaker 2: makes sense in a world in which there's right and wrong. 1329 01:12:06,400 --> 01:12:09,939 Speaker 2: Sacrifice means something. He ought to be a good father. 1330 01:12:09,960 --> 01:12:13,240 Speaker 2: So All I'm getting at is the root question is, 1331 01:12:13,400 --> 01:12:17,430 Speaker 2: if I can frame this, in a materialistic world, which 1332 01:12:17,470 --> 01:12:19,769 Speaker 2: we start with the particles, like you said in that 1333 01:12:19,790 --> 01:12:23,530 Speaker 2: interview with David Dasmalchian, it was interesting, dust to dust, 1334 01:12:24,340 --> 01:12:27,580 Speaker 2: ashes to ashes. That's it. I mean, four miles beyond 1335 01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:32,800 Speaker 2: the spiritual person. Where do these seemingly spiritual things come from, 1336 01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:38,020 Speaker 2: like love and justice, that aren't material? And you sure 1337 01:12:38,060 --> 01:12:40,260 Speaker 2: seem to live your life and write in your comic 1338 01:12:40,280 --> 01:12:43,240 Speaker 2: books as if there's a real right and wrong and 1339 01:12:43,260 --> 01:12:44,720 Speaker 2: a real justice and injustice. 1340 01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:46,860 Speaker 1: I don't understand. 1341 01:12:46,939 --> 01:12:50,670 Speaker 2: Not where your beliefs come from, but how that fits 1342 01:12:50,890 --> 01:12:55,490 Speaker 2: within the world. Or are you literally saying justice and injustice, 1343 01:12:55,890 --> 01:12:58,390 Speaker 2: right and wrong, are completely subjective? 1344 01:13:00,220 --> 01:13:03,979 Speaker 1: And to some degree, they are. And then we live 1345 01:13:04,020 --> 01:13:08,820 Speaker 1: in societies that basically control some of those, right, which 1346 01:13:08,880 --> 01:13:11,740 Speaker 1: is the laws and the norms of society around us. 1347 01:13:11,780 --> 01:13:14,050 Speaker 1: You don't get to just– everybody doesn't get to just 1348 01:13:14,130 --> 01:13:16,450 Speaker 1: do whatever they want because you get chaos at that point, right? 1349 01:13:16,470 --> 01:13:19,169 Speaker 1: You're not going to have any sort of organized community 1350 01:13:19,370 --> 01:13:22,850 Speaker 1: and growth in that. So the question then for each 1351 01:13:22,890 --> 01:13:26,970 Speaker 1: of the individuals is can I live within the confines 1352 01:13:27,350 --> 01:13:31,340 Speaker 1: of whatever– The government is, the society is, and there's 1353 01:13:31,439 --> 01:13:33,650 Speaker 1: plenty of other countries. If you don't, you can, we can, 1354 01:13:34,450 --> 01:13:36,250 Speaker 1: if you have the time and effort and money, you 1355 01:13:36,270 --> 01:13:39,269 Speaker 1: can make the move if you want. Some people don't 1356 01:13:39,310 --> 01:13:42,830 Speaker 1: have that luxury, as you know, Sean, which is sort 1357 01:13:42,850 --> 01:13:49,160 Speaker 1: of the plight of poor people. So I am not 1358 01:13:49,840 --> 01:13:55,410 Speaker 1: advocating or anything. I'm just saying from Todd's point of view, I, I, 1359 01:13:55,570 --> 01:13:58,330 Speaker 1: I'm not, I'm not saying that anybody has to agree 1360 01:13:58,350 --> 01:14:00,650 Speaker 1: with any of it. I'm not doing, I'm not giving 1361 01:14:00,689 --> 01:14:02,930 Speaker 1: a lesson. I'm just, I'm here in the entertainment business. 1362 01:14:03,030 --> 01:14:06,150 Speaker 1: I'm just entertaining. I'm just doing it. I'm not writing 1363 01:14:06,310 --> 01:14:09,310 Speaker 1: a book. I'm not writing a book of laws that 1364 01:14:09,370 --> 01:14:15,330 Speaker 1: basically says, I believe in something because Todd told me to, right? 1365 01:14:15,650 --> 01:14:20,389 Speaker 1: Those are more scripture stuff. Why don't you like that person? Wow. 1366 01:14:20,490 --> 01:14:22,810 Speaker 1: It says here in the Bible and like, oh man, that's, 1367 01:14:23,370 --> 01:14:27,110 Speaker 1: That's that like but besides that somebody told you, why 1368 01:14:27,150 --> 01:14:31,310 Speaker 1: don't you personally like it? And it keeps circling. It 1369 01:14:31,350 --> 01:14:34,980 Speaker 1: keeps circling back to the same thing. And I'm like, oh, man, 1370 01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:40,520 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's it's it's difficult. It's difficult. I'm 1371 01:14:40,540 --> 01:14:45,389 Speaker 1: going to say something that may seem offensive. And that's OK, 1372 01:14:45,439 --> 01:14:49,450 Speaker 1: because let me just say that at its core religion 1373 01:14:49,530 --> 01:14:51,990 Speaker 1: at its super core is offensive to me. And I'll 1374 01:14:52,010 --> 01:14:54,930 Speaker 1: tell you why in a moment. Well, let's get to it. 1375 01:14:54,930 --> 01:15:00,640 Speaker 1: I'll tell you why it's offensive. Because it's good. And 1376 01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:03,080 Speaker 1: here's the blind spot. I think you guys have blind spots. 1377 01:15:03,720 --> 01:15:07,059 Speaker 1: And we all do. But here's where I think religious 1378 01:15:07,080 --> 01:15:11,620 Speaker 1: people have a blind spot. You seem like a good guy. 1379 01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:13,380 Speaker 1: I'll use an example. You're here. You seem like a 1380 01:15:13,380 --> 01:15:14,840 Speaker 1: good guy. You seem like you're reasonable. You've got a 1381 01:15:14,840 --> 01:15:19,100 Speaker 1: good family. You've got whatever else. But you would hear... 1382 01:15:20,100 --> 01:15:22,140 Speaker 1: I could invite you over for a barbecue. We could 1383 01:15:22,160 --> 01:15:23,860 Speaker 1: have a good laugh or whatever else. 1384 01:15:24,160 --> 01:15:26,460 Speaker 2: Anytime, by the way. I'll show up just for the record. 1385 01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:31,360 Speaker 1: But here's the piece that just is always buzzing right there. 1386 01:15:32,180 --> 01:15:37,000 Speaker 1: At the end of the day, if I don't adhere 1387 01:15:38,900 --> 01:15:44,290 Speaker 1: to the belief that you do, my children burn. And 1388 01:15:44,310 --> 01:15:48,650 Speaker 1: you're okay with that. Either you're okay with it personally... 1389 01:15:48,970 --> 01:15:52,530 Speaker 1: Or you bend the knee to somebody who is okay 1390 01:15:52,550 --> 01:15:56,570 Speaker 1: with that. That's the insult. Because there is nothing you 1391 01:15:57,250 --> 01:16:00,810 Speaker 1: or your family or your children could do that I 1392 01:16:00,850 --> 01:16:06,720 Speaker 1: wish harm upon them. Ever. Ever. And yet, I know 1393 01:16:06,740 --> 01:16:13,840 Speaker 1: hell awaits them if they don't do this thing. And 1394 01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:18,410 Speaker 1: they're okay with that. As they're eating my burger. They're 1395 01:16:18,450 --> 01:16:24,000 Speaker 1: okay with my five-year-old frying. That's the piece that you guys, 1396 01:16:24,040 --> 01:16:26,580 Speaker 1: I wish you could get into my head, is the insult, 1397 01:16:26,900 --> 01:16:29,900 Speaker 1: the blind spot for a guy like me. I would 1398 01:16:30,060 --> 01:16:32,349 Speaker 1: never do that in reverse to you, ever. 1399 01:16:34,990 --> 01:16:38,710 Speaker 2: So if I can, it sounds like you're saying that's 1400 01:16:38,890 --> 01:16:44,320 Speaker 2: immoral and it's wrong objectively to send somebody to hell. 1401 01:16:44,630 --> 01:16:45,689 Speaker 2: Like that's an objective. 1402 01:16:46,390 --> 01:16:48,769 Speaker 1: I would never wish ill on your family. 1403 01:16:48,790 --> 01:16:53,030 Speaker 2: So it's just personal, subjective, you wouldn't wish ill, but 1404 01:16:53,050 --> 01:16:56,450 Speaker 2: you don't think it's morally wrong for God to do that? 1405 01:16:56,510 --> 01:16:59,610 Speaker 2: Like it sounds like you're taking moral issue with a 1406 01:16:59,650 --> 01:17:00,429 Speaker 2: God who would do. 1407 01:17:00,380 --> 01:17:04,040 Speaker 1: Such a thing. No, I don't. I don't take issue 1408 01:17:04,080 --> 01:17:06,340 Speaker 1: with God because I don't believe he exists. I don't 1409 01:17:06,400 --> 01:17:09,340 Speaker 1: take any issue with that. I take issue with the 1410 01:17:09,400 --> 01:17:15,870 Speaker 1: people who implement it. You're one of the implementations. So, okay, cool. 1411 01:17:16,010 --> 01:17:17,970 Speaker 1: And I understand it. And there's the hope part. And 1412 01:17:18,010 --> 01:17:20,090 Speaker 1: I get it. And then it gets to that point. 1413 01:17:20,170 --> 01:17:22,770 Speaker 1: And I go, oh, and they're okay with my family 1414 01:17:22,840 --> 01:17:27,080 Speaker 1: getting burnt. That's cool. What could they do in reverse 1415 01:17:27,140 --> 01:17:30,179 Speaker 1: that I would ever want that on them? I can't 1416 01:17:30,220 --> 01:17:32,320 Speaker 1: imagine it. I don't even know what it is. But 1417 01:17:32,520 --> 01:17:36,939 Speaker 1: you guys do you. You guys do you, right? There 1418 01:17:36,979 --> 01:17:40,040 Speaker 1: are certain lines that get crossed. And this is the 1419 01:17:40,100 --> 01:17:43,170 Speaker 1: switching on and the switching off, right? I don't believe 1420 01:17:43,210 --> 01:17:45,210 Speaker 1: in miracles. I don't believe in miracles. 1421 01:17:45,530 --> 01:17:46,540 Speaker 2: Can we come back to miracles? 1422 01:17:46,740 --> 01:17:47,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, sure. 1423 01:17:47,100 --> 01:17:47,880 Speaker 2: Would that be okay? 1424 01:17:48,460 --> 01:17:48,680 Speaker 1: Sure. 1425 01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:52,870 Speaker 2: So do you think hell biblically is physical, where people 1426 01:17:52,930 --> 01:17:53,670 Speaker 2: are burning? 1427 01:17:53,689 --> 01:17:55,070 Speaker 1: I don't exist. It doesn't exist. 1428 01:17:56,420 --> 01:17:59,340 Speaker 2: What Christians believe. You think we believe that hell is 1429 01:17:59,380 --> 01:18:02,020 Speaker 2: a physical burning place. 1430 01:18:02,340 --> 01:18:06,340 Speaker 1: I believe the gnashing of teeth and sort of, it's 1431 01:18:06,420 --> 01:18:09,059 Speaker 1: basically the worst possible thing you guys can come up with, right? 1432 01:18:09,150 --> 01:18:11,670 Speaker 1: So there's the lines that are in there. So I 1433 01:18:11,689 --> 01:18:14,130 Speaker 1: could come up with stuff that would curdle your toes 1434 01:18:14,210 --> 01:18:16,450 Speaker 1: of what I think the worst possible fate could be 1435 01:18:16,510 --> 01:18:19,210 Speaker 1: for your children. I would never say it out loud. 1436 01:18:20,250 --> 01:18:22,059 Speaker 2: So I was only asking you to describe it as burning, 1437 01:18:22,340 --> 01:18:25,340 Speaker 2: and I don't think hell is the a physical burning place, 1438 01:18:25,380 --> 01:18:28,360 Speaker 2: like a God who's torturing us. And I also say 1439 01:18:28,420 --> 01:18:30,960 Speaker 2: I'm not okay with it. Christians wouldn't just say, oh, 1440 01:18:31,100 --> 01:18:33,320 Speaker 2: I'm at a barbecue. I'm okay with your family burning. 1441 01:18:33,979 --> 01:18:37,580 Speaker 2: That's a part of the calling that we believe, that 1442 01:18:37,640 --> 01:18:39,939 Speaker 2: there is a God. There's a moral order. 1443 01:18:39,960 --> 01:18:43,400 Speaker 1: We're accountable to him. But if my children, my family, 1444 01:18:43,500 --> 01:18:46,540 Speaker 1: but if we don't adhere to the rule, then we 1445 01:18:46,560 --> 01:18:50,870 Speaker 1: get punished. That's the piece. Like, look it. I like 1446 01:18:50,890 --> 01:18:53,650 Speaker 1: the Diamondbacks. You may be a Los Angeles Dodgers fan. 1447 01:18:54,170 --> 01:18:56,410 Speaker 1: I don't get it. I disagree. Oh, Red Sox. Okay, 1448 01:18:56,450 --> 01:18:59,050 Speaker 1: I'm a Yankee fan. That's even better. So I'm a 1449 01:18:59,070 --> 01:19:01,840 Speaker 1: Yankee fan. You're a Red Sox fan. I don't get it. 1450 01:19:02,270 --> 01:19:04,990 Speaker 1: I think you're crazy. But I don't wish harm on 1451 01:19:05,050 --> 01:19:07,390 Speaker 1: you for not being a Yankee fan, for not believing 1452 01:19:07,410 --> 01:19:11,050 Speaker 1: what I believe in. You do you, and hopefully we'll 1453 01:19:11,070 --> 01:19:14,090 Speaker 1: beat you in the playoffs every single year. I don't 1454 01:19:14,250 --> 01:19:16,910 Speaker 1: need you to be a Yankee fan, and I don't 1455 01:19:17,490 --> 01:19:21,519 Speaker 1: wish harm on you for not believing. being a Yankee fan. 1456 01:19:21,960 --> 01:19:24,360 Speaker 1: I'm going to be a Yankee fan. You be a 1457 01:19:24,420 --> 01:19:26,040 Speaker 1: Red Sox fan. And I hope we beat you every 1458 01:19:26,060 --> 01:19:26,439 Speaker 1: single time. 1459 01:19:26,740 --> 01:19:30,180 Speaker 2: Okay. Fair enough. So when you say wish harm, I 1460 01:19:30,220 --> 01:19:34,320 Speaker 2: don't wish harm on anybody. I don't want anybody to 1461 01:19:34,360 --> 01:19:36,350 Speaker 2: go to hell. So I don't wish. 1462 01:19:36,390 --> 01:19:39,850 Speaker 1: But the guy you advocate for, it's in the scripture, 1463 01:19:39,910 --> 01:19:43,250 Speaker 1: which is, I've been told is perfect. So it's like, 1464 01:19:43,830 --> 01:19:46,100 Speaker 1: it's in there. You don't get to, this is the 1465 01:19:46,140 --> 01:19:49,140 Speaker 1: cafeteria Christian, cafeteria Catholic part of it. You don't get 1466 01:19:49,180 --> 01:19:51,439 Speaker 1: to like, or maybe you do it. Actually, they all do. 1467 01:19:51,880 --> 01:19:53,720 Speaker 1: You just sort of pick and choose sort of the pieces. 1468 01:19:53,740 --> 01:19:55,600 Speaker 2: Oh, I'm not picking and choosing. I'm not pulling out. 1469 01:19:55,780 --> 01:19:58,560 Speaker 2: But there's a difference between picking and choosing and wishing 1470 01:19:58,660 --> 01:19:59,620 Speaker 2: it upon somebody. 1471 01:19:59,640 --> 01:20:02,560 Speaker 1: You don't wish it. The guy upstairs does in the teaching. 1472 01:20:02,580 --> 01:20:04,700 Speaker 2: Well, it depends on what you mean by wishing it. 1473 01:20:05,340 --> 01:20:07,800 Speaker 2: In the Christian story, God has made us to be 1474 01:20:07,840 --> 01:20:08,740 Speaker 2: in relationship with him. 1475 01:20:08,760 --> 01:20:10,960 Speaker 1: If we don't follow his rules, we get punished. 1476 01:20:10,979 --> 01:20:14,120 Speaker 2: So it's not so much about following his rules, we 1477 01:20:14,150 --> 01:20:20,939 Speaker 2: get So the story would be that God made us 1478 01:20:21,040 --> 01:20:24,559 Speaker 2: for relationship with him. So we can know God and 1479 01:20:24,590 --> 01:20:27,410 Speaker 2: we can know others. That's the purpose of life according 1480 01:20:27,430 --> 01:20:28,309 Speaker 2: to Christian understanding. 1481 01:20:28,330 --> 01:20:30,630 Speaker 1: But everybody doesn't get in though. Everybody doesn't get in though. 1482 01:20:30,710 --> 01:20:33,490 Speaker 2: Let me take a step back. So I agree with that. 1483 01:20:33,810 --> 01:20:36,330 Speaker 2: But what does God wish? It says in 2 Peter 1484 01:20:36,330 --> 01:20:39,630 Speaker 2: 3 now, God wishes that we would turn from evil 1485 01:20:39,790 --> 01:20:42,910 Speaker 2: and turn towards repentance and be saved. That's God's desire. 1486 01:20:43,050 --> 01:20:43,230 Speaker 1: Right. 1487 01:20:43,580 --> 01:20:47,060 Speaker 2: That's God's wish. He could fix that, but he could 1488 01:20:47,100 --> 01:20:47,500 Speaker 2: fix that. 1489 01:20:47,560 --> 01:20:49,280 Speaker 1: I don't understand. Okay, maybe. 1490 01:20:49,300 --> 01:20:51,260 Speaker 2: Let me come back to that. You said at the beginning, 1491 01:20:51,320 --> 01:20:53,820 Speaker 2: why doesn't God just give us free will and let 1492 01:20:53,890 --> 01:20:57,730 Speaker 2: us choose and let us live? That's exactly, in a sense, 1493 01:20:57,770 --> 01:21:00,229 Speaker 2: what the Christian story says. God didn't make us robots. 1494 01:21:00,979 --> 01:21:01,780 Speaker 2: He didn't just make us meet. 1495 01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:02,719 Speaker 1: What's the free will? 1496 01:21:02,860 --> 01:21:05,240 Speaker 2: Free will is we have choice. It allows you to 1497 01:21:05,300 --> 01:21:06,860 Speaker 2: believe or not believe. 1498 01:21:06,900 --> 01:21:10,280 Speaker 1: So let's talk about the choice. Because I think this 1499 01:21:10,320 --> 01:21:12,720 Speaker 1: is another blind spot. We'll get back to it. 1500 01:21:12,740 --> 01:21:14,950 Speaker 2: Before we get there, at the root of the Christian 1501 01:21:14,970 --> 01:21:17,410 Speaker 2: story is that there's a God who's made us to 1502 01:21:17,470 --> 01:21:20,290 Speaker 2: know him and to know others. And in some ways 1503 01:21:20,330 --> 01:21:22,250 Speaker 2: what's powerful about that is you talk about the most 1504 01:21:22,310 --> 01:21:26,390 Speaker 2: important thing to you is relationship, your wife and your kids. 1505 01:21:26,410 --> 01:21:30,230 Speaker 2: That's what you reserve love for. Christianity would say life 1506 01:21:30,320 --> 01:21:34,520 Speaker 2: is about relationship. It's with God and it's with others. 1507 01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:39,240 Speaker 2: But to be in relationship with a holy God, we 1508 01:21:39,260 --> 01:21:42,759 Speaker 2: have to enter into on, you might say, God's terms, 1509 01:21:42,840 --> 01:21:43,380 Speaker 2: so to speak. 1510 01:21:43,540 --> 01:21:44,080 Speaker 1: Why? 1511 01:21:44,220 --> 01:21:45,900 Speaker 2: In his character. 1512 01:21:45,979 --> 01:21:46,259 Speaker 1: Why? 1513 01:21:46,580 --> 01:21:49,750 Speaker 2: Because God is holy. Why? And God is just. 1514 01:21:49,770 --> 01:21:54,530 Speaker 1: That's the peace. Oh, man. Oh, man. That's the peace. 1515 01:21:55,530 --> 01:21:59,280 Speaker 1: Why the ego, God? Why? I wish, I actually hope, 1516 01:22:00,060 --> 01:22:03,460 Speaker 1: can I tell you, Sean? I hope I am dead wrong. 1517 01:22:04,340 --> 01:22:06,720 Speaker 1: I hope I am dead wrong. I hope someday I 1518 01:22:06,740 --> 01:22:10,160 Speaker 1: get to meet this maker of yours. Because I'm going 1519 01:22:10,180 --> 01:22:13,960 Speaker 1: to have a conversation with this person. And at the end, 1520 01:22:14,020 --> 01:22:18,290 Speaker 1: I got to tell you, Sean, even if somehow he says, Todd, 1521 01:22:20,210 --> 01:22:22,630 Speaker 1: I know you. I've known you since, I know this 1522 01:22:22,650 --> 01:22:24,710 Speaker 1: is how you, come on in. I'm not going in. 1523 01:22:25,939 --> 01:22:28,120 Speaker 1: There's nothing that could get me to go into his 1524 01:22:28,160 --> 01:22:30,700 Speaker 1: glee club. Nothing. Ever. 1525 01:22:30,720 --> 01:22:32,280 Speaker 2: What do you think his glee club is like and 1526 01:22:32,300 --> 01:22:33,089 Speaker 2: people doing there? 1527 01:22:33,470 --> 01:22:35,490 Speaker 1: I'm going to come up with rules. If you don't 1528 01:22:35,530 --> 01:22:39,830 Speaker 1: adhere to my rules, you're not good enough for me. 1529 01:22:41,830 --> 01:22:45,910 Speaker 1: The God of love has now got a criteria. If 1530 01:22:46,530 --> 01:22:49,600 Speaker 1: he was as good as you guys said, that would 1531 01:22:49,640 --> 01:22:52,400 Speaker 1: be like a 7-Eleven. And that thing would be open 1532 01:22:52,400 --> 01:22:57,080 Speaker 1: 24 hours a day. Come in, come all, warts and all, 1533 01:22:57,340 --> 01:23:00,000 Speaker 1: come on. I understand, Todd, you were a crazy dude. 1534 01:23:00,040 --> 01:23:02,880 Speaker 1: I understand it, but I knew it. Why? Because I 1535 01:23:03,140 --> 01:23:05,960 Speaker 1: am God and I knew what you were going to be. 1536 01:23:05,979 --> 01:23:08,520 Speaker 1: This is the bizarre thing about me. Either God knows 1537 01:23:08,560 --> 01:23:11,660 Speaker 1: the future or he doesn't, right? So this, huh? Yeah, 1538 01:23:11,720 --> 01:23:12,000 Speaker 1: I agree. 1539 01:23:12,080 --> 01:23:13,080 Speaker 2: Either he knows it or he doesn't. 1540 01:23:13,180 --> 01:23:16,480 Speaker 1: He doesn't. So simple question. God came down. Could he 1541 01:23:16,510 --> 01:23:20,910 Speaker 1: drive a stick shift? I don't know. Either no or yes. Okay. 1542 01:23:21,050 --> 01:23:23,330 Speaker 1: If the answer is yes, to me, we've got a problem. 1543 01:23:23,930 --> 01:23:28,350 Speaker 1: Because then he knew me. He knew the moment he 1544 01:23:28,410 --> 01:23:31,290 Speaker 1: made me. He knew what I was going to do. 1545 01:23:32,390 --> 01:23:35,590 Speaker 1: He still put me into existence. He still knew I 1546 01:23:35,630 --> 01:23:38,070 Speaker 1: was going to be me. He still knew my thoughts. 1547 01:23:38,370 --> 01:23:40,930 Speaker 1: He still knows I'm going to my grave. Never given 1548 01:23:40,990 --> 01:23:44,670 Speaker 1: him a single second of existence. And then he's going 1549 01:23:44,710 --> 01:23:46,519 Speaker 1: to sit there and that's where I get to have 1550 01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:50,350 Speaker 1: the odd conversation. I just want to understand this, Big G. 1551 01:23:51,479 --> 01:23:54,160 Speaker 1: You made me. I didn't. I didn't ask to get born. 1552 01:23:54,540 --> 01:23:58,400 Speaker 1: You made me. I got born. You knew I was 1553 01:23:58,420 --> 01:24:01,759 Speaker 1: going to be Todd because you made Todd. You wired Todd. 1554 01:24:02,060 --> 01:24:04,979 Speaker 1: I didn't wire me. You wired Todd. You wired Todd. 1555 01:24:05,260 --> 01:24:07,400 Speaker 1: The world wired it. But again, you made all that 1556 01:24:07,460 --> 01:24:10,189 Speaker 1: stuff too. So you knew the future. And now you 1557 01:24:10,280 --> 01:24:12,689 Speaker 1: actually knew this day was coming where I was going 1558 01:24:12,710 --> 01:24:15,550 Speaker 1: to be standing in front of you. And now I'm 1559 01:24:15,630 --> 01:24:23,040 Speaker 1: going downstairs because I am exactly... to 100% specs of 1560 01:24:23,180 --> 01:24:26,400 Speaker 1: what you knew I was going to be in advance. 1561 01:24:28,120 --> 01:24:31,689 Speaker 1: You did this. You made this. So you want to 1562 01:24:31,729 --> 01:24:35,170 Speaker 1: punish me? This is on you. I had nothing to 1563 01:24:35,229 --> 01:24:39,710 Speaker 1: do with this one, right? Like, I'm you. So go ahead. 1564 01:24:39,750 --> 01:24:44,050 Speaker 1: This is a weird thing to me. But you do you, 1565 01:24:44,150 --> 01:24:44,580 Speaker 1: Big G. 1566 01:24:45,070 --> 01:24:47,240 Speaker 2: Okay, so think about it this way. You've been married 1567 01:24:47,300 --> 01:24:49,440 Speaker 2: to your wife, Wanda, for a long time. 1568 01:24:49,439 --> 01:24:52,950 Speaker 1: 40 years. We just celebrated our 40th anniversary. 40 years. Congrats. 1569 01:24:52,990 --> 01:24:54,790 Speaker 2: Just had our 25th, my wife and I. 1570 01:24:55,070 --> 01:24:55,469 Speaker 1: Congrats. 1571 01:24:56,110 --> 01:25:00,560 Speaker 2: Thank you. Obviously, there's some differences here in this analogy. 1572 01:25:00,960 --> 01:25:03,980 Speaker 2: But there's certain things and rules you have to do 1573 01:25:04,140 --> 01:25:07,180 Speaker 2: to be in a relationship with somebody. And if you 1574 01:25:07,220 --> 01:25:09,220 Speaker 2: don't do it, you can't be in a relationship with 1575 01:25:09,540 --> 01:25:11,900 Speaker 2: your wife. A lot of things. And you've talked about 1576 01:25:11,939 --> 01:25:13,630 Speaker 2: being faithful to her and not looking at others in 1577 01:25:13,650 --> 01:25:15,950 Speaker 2: a commendable way. I totally agree with that. But there's 1578 01:25:15,990 --> 01:25:19,590 Speaker 2: laws and rules you have to follow. To have a successful. 1579 01:25:19,850 --> 01:25:24,770 Speaker 2: Meaningful love relationship. And if you break those. The relationship 1580 01:25:24,850 --> 01:25:28,880 Speaker 2: is done. Now you described God. As being ego. 1581 01:25:28,950 --> 01:25:33,900 Speaker 1: So what's the rule? I play sports. This is another 1582 01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:36,240 Speaker 1: reason I can't go there. Because nobody's told me how 1583 01:25:36,280 --> 01:25:37,140 Speaker 1: the rule book works. 1584 01:25:37,540 --> 01:25:38,720 Speaker 2: Okay so let me come back. 1585 01:25:39,340 --> 01:25:40,259 Speaker 1: I go to ten people. 1586 01:25:41,220 --> 01:25:42,780 Speaker 2: Let me come back to the rule book. All I'm 1587 01:25:42,820 --> 01:25:46,610 Speaker 2: saying is when we say. God is egotistical. If I 1588 01:25:46,689 --> 01:25:49,550 Speaker 2: said hey. you have skills to do art, and I 1589 01:25:49,570 --> 01:25:51,950 Speaker 2: want to give you credit for this art, you're not 1590 01:25:52,050 --> 01:25:53,670 Speaker 2: egotistical to go, thank you. 1591 01:25:53,890 --> 01:25:55,550 Speaker 1: Why does he need me to bend a knee? He 1592 01:25:55,590 --> 01:25:58,290 Speaker 1: doesn't need you to do anything. Okay, then why does 1593 01:25:58,310 --> 01:26:03,140 Speaker 1: he punish me for not doing it then? But if 1594 01:26:03,220 --> 01:26:07,180 Speaker 1: I don't do it, I get punished. There's the circular piece. 1595 01:26:07,760 --> 01:26:09,460 Speaker 1: He doesn't need me to bend a knee, but if 1596 01:26:09,520 --> 01:26:11,540 Speaker 1: I don't bend a knee, I get punished, my children 1597 01:26:11,580 --> 01:26:12,760 Speaker 1: get punished, somebody gets punished. 1598 01:26:12,820 --> 01:26:16,800 Speaker 2: In part, God doesn't need anything. And by the way, 1599 01:26:17,160 --> 01:26:19,300 Speaker 2: You said you're going to your grave not believing in God. 1600 01:26:19,680 --> 01:26:22,640 Speaker 1: Maybe not. No, it's a never. It's a never. Okay. 1601 01:26:22,900 --> 01:26:27,150 Speaker 1: It's a never. Okay, so it sounds like you might not. 1602 01:26:27,160 --> 01:26:29,809 Speaker 1: I'll give you another never. This is a cliche when 1603 01:26:29,850 --> 01:26:31,729 Speaker 1: people say never say never. I'll give you another cliche. 1604 01:26:32,290 --> 01:26:35,610 Speaker 1: I will never steal an elephant from a zoo, fly 1605 01:26:35,630 --> 01:26:38,210 Speaker 1: it in a helicopter, go to Pakistan, and drop it 1606 01:26:38,350 --> 01:26:40,430 Speaker 1: on the heads of three children that are bathing in 1607 01:26:40,470 --> 01:26:43,250 Speaker 1: a river. I promise you I will never do that too. Now, 1608 01:26:43,290 --> 01:26:45,590 Speaker 1: you can say never say never, Todd. I promise you 1609 01:26:45,610 --> 01:26:48,080 Speaker 1: I will never do that too. I'm going to my 1610 01:26:48,200 --> 01:26:53,870 Speaker 1: grave like this. Like I'm going to my grave like this. Okay. 1611 01:26:54,050 --> 01:26:56,170 Speaker 2: I mean, that's fine. I think you have free will. 1612 01:26:56,330 --> 01:26:57,309 Speaker 2: You can make those decisions. 1613 01:26:57,330 --> 01:26:59,990 Speaker 1: I don't have free will. That's a con, but go ahead. 1614 01:27:00,530 --> 01:27:03,410 Speaker 2: Okay, so let's come back to, we can come back 1615 01:27:03,439 --> 01:27:04,110 Speaker 2: to the free will. 1616 01:27:04,340 --> 01:27:04,900 Speaker 1: And the miracles. 1617 01:27:05,360 --> 01:27:08,020 Speaker 2: Would you say you've had a good life? 1618 01:27:08,380 --> 01:27:09,460 Speaker 1: Oh, good one. 1619 01:27:10,100 --> 01:27:10,620 Speaker 2: A great one. 1620 01:27:10,820 --> 01:27:11,240 Speaker 1: Great one. 1621 01:27:11,280 --> 01:27:12,480 Speaker 2: Like you love life. 1622 01:27:12,500 --> 01:27:13,160 Speaker 1: I love life. 1623 01:27:14,229 --> 01:27:16,270 Speaker 2: You can live it again if you can do it again. 1624 01:27:16,410 --> 01:27:19,890 Speaker 1: I love life. I love life to the fullest. And 1625 01:27:19,930 --> 01:27:23,750 Speaker 1: you know why maybe I love it so much? Because 1626 01:27:23,770 --> 01:27:28,070 Speaker 1: to me, there's nothing afterwards. I have to sponge this up, Sean. 1627 01:27:28,110 --> 01:27:30,270 Speaker 1: This is like, for me, this is it. This is 1628 01:27:30,330 --> 01:27:33,830 Speaker 1: my heaven. This is my heaven today. I go, because 1629 01:27:33,910 --> 01:27:37,910 Speaker 1: this is it. This is all the things. You get 1630 01:27:37,950 --> 01:27:42,009 Speaker 1: the five senses. I get to hold my wife's hand. 1631 01:27:42,030 --> 01:27:45,360 Speaker 1: I get to hug my children. This is it. I go, wow. 1632 01:27:45,880 --> 01:27:47,560 Speaker 1: I don't want eternity. I don't want eternity. 1633 01:27:47,660 --> 01:27:50,040 Speaker 2: Okay, so again, another one we could come back to. 1634 01:27:50,500 --> 01:27:53,380 Speaker 2: I would if eternity is the way that I actually 1635 01:27:53,420 --> 01:27:56,900 Speaker 2: think the Christian tradition teaches. So the very things we 1636 01:27:56,960 --> 01:28:02,220 Speaker 2: value most in this life, relationships and people. That's what 1637 01:28:02,439 --> 01:28:05,400 Speaker 2: heaven is about, knowing God and knowing others. 1638 01:28:05,620 --> 01:28:05,809 Speaker 1: For you. 1639 01:28:05,820 --> 01:28:08,200 Speaker 2: I'm just telling you what the Christian tradition is. 1640 01:28:08,270 --> 01:28:09,590 Speaker 1: For them. For Christians, for them. 1641 01:28:09,610 --> 01:28:13,850 Speaker 2: That's what I believe. That's what we understand is reality. 1642 01:28:13,910 --> 01:28:15,970 Speaker 1: I got it. I'll let you have that. I don't 1643 01:28:16,010 --> 01:28:18,150 Speaker 1: need any of it. Yeah, that's fine. 1644 01:28:18,250 --> 01:28:21,479 Speaker 2: I'm explaining what I think the Christian tradition teaches. If 1645 01:28:21,490 --> 01:28:23,000 Speaker 2: you reject it, totally fine. 1646 01:28:23,560 --> 01:28:25,160 Speaker 1: I don't need it. I don't reject it. I don't 1647 01:28:25,200 --> 01:28:27,000 Speaker 1: reject it. I don't need it. I don't have a 1648 01:28:27,060 --> 01:28:30,610 Speaker 1: want for it. Okay. And I know that. I know 1649 01:28:30,670 --> 01:28:33,679 Speaker 1: that's hard for people to comprehend. I understand. I actually 1650 01:28:33,700 --> 01:28:34,480 Speaker 1: even understand it. 1651 01:28:34,920 --> 01:28:35,140 Speaker 2: What? 1652 01:28:35,280 --> 01:28:36,820 Speaker 1: Why wouldn't you want to be with your children forever? 1653 01:28:36,939 --> 01:28:39,250 Speaker 1: Why wouldn't you want to see your family? Like, I 1654 01:28:39,290 --> 01:28:42,400 Speaker 1: get all of it. I get it seems odd. I'll 1655 01:28:43,040 --> 01:28:45,860 Speaker 1: tell you why. Because right now, I do have my 1656 01:28:45,920 --> 01:28:49,439 Speaker 1: five senses, and nobody has ever, ever proven, and it's 1657 01:28:49,620 --> 01:28:53,019 Speaker 1: unprovable that there are going to be the five senses thereafter. 1658 01:28:53,770 --> 01:28:55,110 Speaker 1: I also don't want to get in a debate that 1659 01:28:55,130 --> 01:28:57,550 Speaker 1: somebody's cloud's bigger than somebody else's. So I don't really 1660 01:28:57,610 --> 01:28:59,519 Speaker 1: want to get into oh my gosh, we've got to 1661 01:28:59,540 --> 01:29:02,740 Speaker 1: deal with humans again, right? Like we have enough agendas. 1662 01:29:02,860 --> 01:29:04,939 Speaker 1: What's the agenda when we get up there? So if 1663 01:29:04,979 --> 01:29:08,500 Speaker 1: we have cognizant thought, all the flaws of humanity come 1664 01:29:08,580 --> 01:29:11,360 Speaker 1: back to us. But even more torturous to me is 1665 01:29:11,380 --> 01:29:13,150 Speaker 1: that we don't have the five senses, and I do 1666 01:29:13,280 --> 01:29:15,870 Speaker 1: not get to hug my children again. If you told 1667 01:29:15,930 --> 01:29:18,090 Speaker 1: me I had to spend eternity and never hug my 1668 01:29:18,130 --> 01:29:20,769 Speaker 1: child again, you know what that is called to me? Hell. 1669 01:29:20,790 --> 01:29:21,830 Speaker 1: That would be hell. 1670 01:29:21,850 --> 01:29:23,770 Speaker 2: So you think heaven is just like immaterial? 1671 01:29:23,790 --> 01:29:24,610 Speaker 1: I don't know what heaven is. 1672 01:29:24,630 --> 01:29:28,269 Speaker 2: What Christians believe. Because Christians... I'm just telling you what 1673 01:29:28,670 --> 01:29:30,690 Speaker 2: we believe. And I could go into some of the 1674 01:29:30,770 --> 01:29:33,479 Speaker 2: evidence if it interested you why I think this is true. 1675 01:29:33,840 --> 01:29:34,840 Speaker 1: But is there cognizant thought? 1676 01:29:35,460 --> 01:29:35,939 Speaker 2: Is there what? 1677 01:29:36,140 --> 01:29:37,160 Speaker 1: Cognizant thought. 1678 01:29:37,439 --> 01:29:40,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. There's thinking immaterial. 1679 01:29:40,220 --> 01:29:40,340 Speaker 1: Ouch. 1680 01:29:40,680 --> 01:29:45,760 Speaker 2: And there's physical bodies. That's in part Jesus' resurrection defeating death. 1681 01:29:45,960 --> 01:29:48,559 Speaker 2: And the new heavens and new earth will be physical. 1682 01:29:48,640 --> 01:29:51,500 Speaker 2: So my only point about that is it wouldn't be 1683 01:29:51,580 --> 01:29:54,050 Speaker 2: egotistical for me to say, hey, you drew that? That's amazing. 1684 01:29:54,090 --> 01:29:56,870 Speaker 2: Good for you. You go, thanks. Well, if there's a God... 1685 01:29:57,110 --> 01:30:00,650 Speaker 2: if he gave you every breath and life and the 1686 01:30:00,710 --> 01:30:04,570 Speaker 2: ability to have senses, the ability to be here and 1687 01:30:04,610 --> 01:30:07,260 Speaker 2: do the amazing artwork that you've given, which I told 1688 01:30:07,280 --> 01:30:09,620 Speaker 2: you has been a gift to myself and to others, 1689 01:30:10,500 --> 01:30:14,180 Speaker 2: there's a sense where like, wow, just like I rightfully 1690 01:30:14,380 --> 01:30:16,280 Speaker 2: said thank you to you at the beginning, it makes 1691 01:30:16,340 --> 01:30:18,599 Speaker 2: sense if there's a God that made all this possible 1692 01:30:18,680 --> 01:30:21,920 Speaker 2: and your amazing life, if there were such a God, 1693 01:30:22,520 --> 01:30:25,160 Speaker 2: wouldn't it make sense to be like, wow, thank you 1694 01:30:25,180 --> 01:30:28,050 Speaker 2: for this life? For my wife. No. People that I know. No. 1695 01:30:28,210 --> 01:30:29,429 Speaker 1: You still would disagree. 1696 01:30:29,810 --> 01:30:29,970 Speaker 2: No. 1697 01:30:31,070 --> 01:30:34,189 Speaker 1: Okay. And I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. 1698 01:30:34,210 --> 01:30:41,460 Speaker 1: I don't care about me at that point. I would 1699 01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:43,480 Speaker 1: ask a bigger question. I don't care that I got 1700 01:30:43,500 --> 01:30:45,340 Speaker 1: a good life. I don't care that he put me 1701 01:30:45,360 --> 01:30:47,960 Speaker 1: in front of a wife that I spent my entire 1702 01:30:48,000 --> 01:30:51,090 Speaker 1: life with. I don't care about that. I got bigger questions. 1703 01:30:54,410 --> 01:31:00,010 Speaker 1: Why did you, who created everything, they keep telling me 1704 01:31:00,050 --> 01:31:05,420 Speaker 1: how good you are. Why did you not put drinking 1705 01:31:05,560 --> 01:31:11,740 Speaker 1: water everywhere where people were going to be? You knew 1706 01:31:11,780 --> 01:31:13,760 Speaker 1: they needed to drink. You were the one that made that. 1707 01:31:14,620 --> 01:31:17,620 Speaker 1: You knew the need to drink. You made that. You 1708 01:31:17,660 --> 01:31:21,070 Speaker 1: knew the science that they need the water. You made that. 1709 01:31:21,790 --> 01:31:27,540 Speaker 1: And you stuck them in places without drinking water or 1710 01:31:27,820 --> 01:31:33,540 Speaker 1: rich soil. And here's my anger at this point. You 1711 01:31:33,600 --> 01:31:39,650 Speaker 1: invented water. You invented soil. You could have put it everywhere. 1712 01:31:40,400 --> 01:31:45,110 Speaker 1: And you chose either not to, knowing that they were 1713 01:31:45,130 --> 01:31:48,189 Speaker 1: going to then starve to death with the things that 1714 01:31:48,210 --> 01:31:52,090 Speaker 1: you already invented. You just forgot to put them in 1715 01:31:52,110 --> 01:31:58,519 Speaker 1: the right spots. I don't want to be part of 1716 01:31:58,610 --> 01:32:04,270 Speaker 1: something where I think I'm smarter than the leader. I, 1717 01:32:05,240 --> 01:32:07,660 Speaker 1: if you'd given me your abilities, Big G, I would 1718 01:32:07,680 --> 01:32:12,630 Speaker 1: have put water everywhere. And I would have put rich 1719 01:32:13,189 --> 01:32:17,190 Speaker 1: soil so that those people could eat. I don't care 1720 01:32:17,210 --> 01:32:22,430 Speaker 1: what you did for me. I care about humanity at 1721 01:32:22,790 --> 01:32:29,689 Speaker 1: its core. And I think you missed a couple easy ones. 1722 01:32:30,650 --> 01:32:36,550 Speaker 1: And you invented it all. Shame on you. That's the piece, Sean, 1723 01:32:36,670 --> 01:32:38,570 Speaker 1: that I just like. Who cares about Todd? 1724 01:32:39,250 --> 01:32:41,830 Speaker 2: So I get it. So problem of evil and suffering 1725 01:32:42,010 --> 01:32:45,130 Speaker 2: is it's a big one. And I understand. 1726 01:32:45,150 --> 01:32:47,890 Speaker 1: And it's curable. And it's curable if you're God. It's 1727 01:32:47,930 --> 01:32:48,650 Speaker 1: curable if you're God. 1728 01:32:48,670 --> 01:32:50,810 Speaker 2: It will be at some point. God is going to 1729 01:32:51,330 --> 01:32:54,450 Speaker 2: come back and make sense of things. Let me take 1730 01:32:54,490 --> 01:32:56,639 Speaker 2: a step back. I teach a whole class on this. 1731 01:32:56,689 --> 01:32:58,690 Speaker 2: I feel like I'd love to sit down and just 1732 01:32:58,760 --> 01:33:02,620 Speaker 2: flesh out the problem of evil and suffering. But every 1733 01:33:02,720 --> 01:33:05,180 Speaker 2: worldview has to make sense of why there's evil and 1734 01:33:05,220 --> 01:33:08,340 Speaker 2: suffering in the world. And so on your worldview, you 1735 01:33:08,380 --> 01:33:12,120 Speaker 2: said earlier, this is just Todd's view. There's no objective morality. 1736 01:33:13,020 --> 01:33:16,780 Speaker 2: And that you got very amped about God for being 1737 01:33:17,340 --> 01:33:22,350 Speaker 2: shame on him, immoral, unjust, arguably immoral. Because of the 1738 01:33:22,390 --> 01:33:24,950 Speaker 2: world he's created. Hold on, let me just clarify. 1739 01:33:24,970 --> 01:33:27,390 Speaker 1: Because he knew people were going to die, and he 1740 01:33:27,410 --> 01:33:28,070 Speaker 1: did it anyways. 1741 01:33:28,430 --> 01:33:34,099 Speaker 2: So my only point is, that's a moral condemnation of God. 1742 01:33:34,120 --> 01:33:38,680 Speaker 2: And yet, in your own system, you said everything is subjective. 1743 01:33:39,460 --> 01:33:42,780 Speaker 2: So why God allows evil and suffering and how Christianity 1744 01:33:42,820 --> 01:33:45,880 Speaker 2: responds to it is a very important topic, and we 1745 01:33:45,920 --> 01:33:49,920 Speaker 2: could go down that road. But I'm simply saying... Earlier 1746 01:33:49,960 --> 01:33:52,050 Speaker 2: you said morality is subjective. This is just taught. 1747 01:33:52,070 --> 01:33:53,450 Speaker 1: Sean, here's what I get to do with you. 1748 01:33:53,570 --> 01:33:56,990 Speaker 2: Let me clarify. But then you're clearly saying God is 1749 01:33:57,170 --> 01:34:01,010 Speaker 2: out of bounds, done things wrong, done things immoral. That 1750 01:34:01,050 --> 01:34:04,939 Speaker 2: assumes a kind of moral standard by which you're judging God. 1751 01:34:05,520 --> 01:34:07,840 Speaker 2: Or if it's just on the flip hand, if it's 1752 01:34:07,860 --> 01:34:10,880 Speaker 2: just your. Sean, you need to get into my head. 1753 01:34:11,560 --> 01:34:14,890 Speaker 1: I'm judging a guy that I've been told my entire 1754 01:34:14,939 --> 01:34:24,910 Speaker 1: life can do anything. Okay. But he didn't. Forgot to 1755 01:34:25,030 --> 01:34:28,240 Speaker 1: put the water where people could drink it. 1756 01:34:30,220 --> 01:34:36,099 Speaker 2: Why make the rest of infinity? Why is that wrong, Todd? 1757 01:34:36,140 --> 01:34:39,460 Speaker 2: Why is that wrong for God to have done that? 1758 01:34:39,620 --> 01:34:44,099 Speaker 2: By what standard are you judging God and saying he 1759 01:34:44,240 --> 01:34:48,570 Speaker 2: should have acted differently? That's the piece that I'm getting at. 1760 01:34:48,750 --> 01:34:52,450 Speaker 2: I understand the weight of your question. And we can 1761 01:34:53,010 --> 01:34:56,110 Speaker 2: talk about that? What is the Christian response, Hindu response, 1762 01:34:56,229 --> 01:34:58,590 Speaker 2: Buddhist response? I'm just simply saying you're. 1763 01:34:58,490 --> 01:34:59,850 Speaker 1: Making strong— Let me ask you a simple question. Would 1764 01:34:59,870 --> 01:35:01,910 Speaker 1: you have liked to have had God put drinking water 1765 01:35:02,229 --> 01:35:05,740 Speaker 1: everywhere for people for the last 4,000 years? Would you 1766 01:35:05,780 --> 01:35:08,400 Speaker 1: have liked that? Okay, so that's— Of your God. Would 1767 01:35:08,439 --> 01:35:10,880 Speaker 1: you have liked that? If he could have done it, 1768 01:35:11,380 --> 01:35:13,340 Speaker 1: if he could have done it, would you have liked that? 1769 01:35:13,380 --> 01:35:17,490 Speaker 2: Here's my point. If this is just about likes and dislikes, 1770 01:35:17,710 --> 01:35:19,790 Speaker 2: it doesn't matter what I like and not like. If 1771 01:35:19,830 --> 01:35:21,510 Speaker 2: this is just Sean and this is just Todd and 1772 01:35:21,550 --> 01:35:24,530 Speaker 2: their subjective little realms, I go, yeah, I like there 1773 01:35:24,570 --> 01:35:26,030 Speaker 2: not to be water. You go, yeah, I like there 1774 01:35:26,050 --> 01:35:29,769 Speaker 2: to be water. Unless there's some standard or way of 1775 01:35:29,950 --> 01:35:34,380 Speaker 2: real justice and humans actually have value and there's right 1776 01:35:34,560 --> 01:35:37,280 Speaker 2: and wrong in the universe, then it's just likes and 1777 01:35:37,320 --> 01:35:40,960 Speaker 2: dislikes and it doesn't matter. It's like chocolate versus vanilla. 1778 01:35:41,000 --> 01:35:42,020 Speaker 2: You like chocolate, I like vanilla. 1779 01:35:42,650 --> 01:35:45,650 Speaker 1: Where's God culpable in all of this? 1780 01:35:46,050 --> 01:35:50,990 Speaker 2: Okay, so culpability is a moral term that assumes there's 1781 01:35:51,070 --> 01:35:53,040 Speaker 2: right and wrong. I'm trying to get at how you 1782 01:35:53,160 --> 01:35:57,760 Speaker 2: have right and wrong in a subjective world without God. 1783 01:35:58,280 --> 01:36:01,620 Speaker 2: That's what's not being answered within your system, although I'm 1784 01:36:01,800 --> 01:36:05,960 Speaker 2: fully conceding that why God doesn't do this, those are sticky, 1785 01:36:06,060 --> 01:36:10,600 Speaker 2: difficult questions that need to be addressed. But the standpoint 1786 01:36:10,640 --> 01:36:15,540 Speaker 2: you're criticizing this assumes certain things that your worldview doesn't 1787 01:36:15,620 --> 01:36:20,280 Speaker 2: give permission to do so. Two things. One, human value. Like, 1788 01:36:20,300 --> 01:36:22,480 Speaker 2: why doesn't he give water to human beings? Where do 1789 01:36:22,550 --> 01:36:25,130 Speaker 2: human beings even get value that we should give any 1790 01:36:25,290 --> 01:36:30,429 Speaker 2: care about them in an atheistic, materialistic universe? And second, 1791 01:36:30,490 --> 01:36:34,270 Speaker 2: we're still judging God. We're putting God in the seat 1792 01:36:34,370 --> 01:36:37,920 Speaker 2: by a moral standard. I am. And if it's your 1793 01:36:38,020 --> 01:36:40,150 Speaker 2: subjective preference and mine, it doesn't matter. 1794 01:36:40,160 --> 01:36:42,670 Speaker 1: I am children dying of starvation. I will put a 1795 01:36:42,830 --> 01:36:47,110 Speaker 1: moral standard on that to anybody. Yes. Okay, good. 1796 01:36:47,150 --> 01:36:49,670 Speaker 2: We're making progress then. So morality is not subjective. 1797 01:36:50,110 --> 01:36:50,410 Speaker 1: For me. 1798 01:36:50,530 --> 01:36:51,540 Speaker 2: It's objective. I said I. 1799 01:36:51,590 --> 01:36:55,590 Speaker 1: I said I will. I will put that subject moral 1800 01:36:55,650 --> 01:36:57,689 Speaker 1: value on everybody. Okay. 1801 01:36:57,720 --> 01:36:59,000 Speaker 2: So if I said I want to. 1802 01:36:59,080 --> 01:37:03,530 Speaker 1: I cannot sit here in any good conscience. And try, wow, 1803 01:37:03,930 --> 01:37:09,370 Speaker 1: and try and excuse that mistake. You're trying to give 1804 01:37:09,410 --> 01:37:13,879 Speaker 1: me an answer why it's okay or mysterious as to 1805 01:37:14,020 --> 01:37:18,440 Speaker 1: why millions of human beings have starved. 1806 01:37:18,780 --> 01:37:19,340 Speaker 2: I'm actually not. 1807 01:37:19,400 --> 01:37:23,400 Speaker 1: In the world. And that somehow there's a deeper meaning 1808 01:37:23,560 --> 01:37:26,120 Speaker 1: to it when all you could have done was gone, water. 1809 01:37:26,140 --> 01:37:29,630 Speaker 2: Okay, so I'm actually not trying to give a reason why. 1810 01:37:30,250 --> 01:37:34,150 Speaker 2: There are what are called theodicies, which is ways Christianity 1811 01:37:34,210 --> 01:37:36,349 Speaker 2: makes sense of the suffering and evil in the world. 1812 01:37:36,450 --> 01:37:39,440 Speaker 2: We could go down that route. I'm asking a more 1813 01:37:39,640 --> 01:37:44,760 Speaker 2: basic foundational question, which is how we even put God 1814 01:37:45,300 --> 01:37:49,380 Speaker 2: in a position we judge him morally. Why kids have 1815 01:37:49,420 --> 01:37:54,860 Speaker 2: any value and why it's wrong to not care for kids. 1816 01:37:55,020 --> 01:37:56,980 Speaker 2: So again, let me state as clear as I can. 1817 01:37:57,020 --> 01:38:01,630 Speaker 2: That assumes children have objective value and I Totally agree 1818 01:38:01,670 --> 01:38:03,350 Speaker 2: with you that they do. We're on the same page there. 1819 01:38:03,970 --> 01:38:07,230 Speaker 2: I agree with you that we shouldn't harm kids. Totally 1820 01:38:07,290 --> 01:38:11,120 Speaker 2: agree with you. I just don't see how that beginning 1821 01:38:11,220 --> 01:38:14,479 Speaker 2: point makes sense. If you have a materialistic universe, and 1822 01:38:14,540 --> 01:38:16,759 Speaker 2: correct me if this story is wrong, in the beginning 1823 01:38:16,780 --> 01:38:21,099 Speaker 2: was nothing, matter popped into existence, evolved through some blind, 1824 01:38:21,680 --> 01:38:28,170 Speaker 2: purposeless chance process, arrives at today, we might have feelings 1825 01:38:28,250 --> 01:38:30,380 Speaker 2: that we should do one thing and not the other 1826 01:38:30,420 --> 01:38:34,439 Speaker 2: thing but those feelings aren't grounded in a reality of 1827 01:38:34,520 --> 01:38:38,620 Speaker 2: things like justice and injustice and right and wrong which 1828 01:38:38,800 --> 01:38:45,920 Speaker 2: are spiritual categories they're not physical Where does that come from? 1829 01:38:45,939 --> 01:38:52,160 Speaker 1: This is another interesting bit of a blind spot here, too. Again, 1830 01:38:52,220 --> 01:38:55,240 Speaker 1: my answer to everything is pretty much, I don't know. 1831 01:38:55,680 --> 01:38:57,860 Speaker 1: A lot of times the comeback then is, well, if 1832 01:38:57,900 --> 01:39:01,439 Speaker 1: you can't prove it, Todd, then it must have been this. 1833 01:39:02,220 --> 01:39:04,760 Speaker 1: Let me just give a value to God. We'll call 1834 01:39:04,780 --> 01:39:09,240 Speaker 1: it a unicorn. The conversation goes like this. Prove to 1835 01:39:09,280 --> 01:39:13,080 Speaker 1: me that the unicorn doesn't exist, Todd. Well, first off, 1836 01:39:13,140 --> 01:39:15,880 Speaker 1: I'm not. I'm not here to disprove anything. I'm just 1837 01:39:15,900 --> 01:39:21,219 Speaker 1: saying I'm Todd. I have my beliefs. Everybody else have yours. 1838 01:39:21,979 --> 01:39:26,930 Speaker 1: God bless you. Cool. Everybody do it, whatever. But the 1839 01:39:26,990 --> 01:39:30,670 Speaker 1: conversation can't be. All we have is a brain that 1840 01:39:30,710 --> 01:39:34,370 Speaker 1: gives us reasoning and rationale. And so I've only got 1841 01:39:34,410 --> 01:39:37,130 Speaker 1: the tool that I've been given. So I'm applying those 1842 01:39:37,570 --> 01:39:39,940 Speaker 1: to it. But it can't be that it's like, we'll 1843 01:39:40,000 --> 01:39:43,020 Speaker 1: prove that God, of which it's unprovable. Why? Because there's 1844 01:39:43,040 --> 01:39:44,880 Speaker 1: no empirical evidence. It's a zero over there. 1845 01:39:45,460 --> 01:39:47,050 Speaker 2: I don't concede that, but keep going. 1846 01:39:47,400 --> 01:39:48,270 Speaker 1: There's no empirical evidence? 1847 01:39:49,010 --> 01:39:52,390 Speaker 2: I think there's, again, I don't think proof means certainty. 1848 01:39:52,950 --> 01:39:54,930 Speaker 2: I think there is evidence we haven't even got to 1849 01:39:54,990 --> 01:39:57,849 Speaker 2: outside of the moral law for the existence of God, 1850 01:39:57,870 --> 01:40:02,490 Speaker 2: the resurrection of Jesus. That's compelling, not conclusive but compelling. 1851 01:40:02,030 --> 01:40:04,769 Speaker 1: Yeah no i'm with you on the compelling no i'm 1852 01:40:04,810 --> 01:40:07,880 Speaker 1: not here i'm going i've heard lots of compelling stuff 1853 01:40:08,420 --> 01:40:10,540 Speaker 1: like i said people bring it up to the hundred 1854 01:40:10,580 --> 01:40:13,260 Speaker 1: percent that's when you lose me right that's when i 1855 01:40:13,400 --> 01:40:16,100 Speaker 1: always get lost is that the line we're on the 1856 01:40:16,120 --> 01:40:19,020 Speaker 1: same page of that so so we're there so for 1857 01:40:19,060 --> 01:40:22,030 Speaker 1: me that i've had these conversations before people go well 1858 01:40:22,229 --> 01:40:24,910 Speaker 1: todd well then who invented the universe i don't know 1859 01:40:25,420 --> 01:40:26,960 Speaker 1: How did it come to be? I don't know. I 1860 01:40:27,420 --> 01:40:31,080 Speaker 1: have no clue. I'm a comic book dude. So I 1861 01:40:31,120 --> 01:40:33,720 Speaker 1: do it. But the default is, well, if you can't 1862 01:40:33,760 --> 01:40:36,689 Speaker 1: prove it, it must have been the unicorn. Yeah, but 1863 01:40:36,729 --> 01:40:39,050 Speaker 1: we just said that there's no empirical proof that there's 1864 01:40:39,070 --> 01:40:42,309 Speaker 1: a unicorn. And your fallback is that although there's no 1865 01:40:42,370 --> 01:40:46,050 Speaker 1: proof that there's a unicorn, that then because I can't 1866 01:40:46,090 --> 01:40:47,880 Speaker 1: tell you how the universe was, it had to be 1867 01:40:47,910 --> 01:40:53,180 Speaker 1: the unicorn? It seems like a weird kabuki argument that 1868 01:40:53,220 --> 01:40:55,240 Speaker 1: doesn't make a lot of sense to me that it's like, 1869 01:40:55,580 --> 01:40:57,000 Speaker 1: So it must have been the thing that we have 1870 01:40:57,040 --> 01:41:00,700 Speaker 1: no proof on, must have made the thing that made everything. Wow, okay. 1871 01:41:00,979 --> 01:41:02,900 Speaker 1: I can't go there, Sean. I just can't turn those 1872 01:41:02,960 --> 01:41:04,840 Speaker 1: levers off and on. Okay, so fair. 1873 01:41:04,900 --> 01:41:07,080 Speaker 2: Let me just clarify, that's not the route that I 1874 01:41:07,120 --> 01:41:08,760 Speaker 2: would go. That's not the kind of argument that I 1875 01:41:08,780 --> 01:41:11,479 Speaker 2: would make. I would say something like this. So C.S. 1876 01:41:11,550 --> 01:41:15,790 Speaker 2: Lewis was an atheist for a while, writer, Narnia series, 1877 01:41:15,830 --> 01:41:18,790 Speaker 2: et cetera, professor at Oxford. And he said when he 1878 01:41:18,810 --> 01:41:22,070 Speaker 2: was an atheist, his problem with the world is that 1879 01:41:22,189 --> 01:41:25,790 Speaker 2: things seem so unjust. A little bit like you raised earlier. 1880 01:41:25,850 --> 01:41:28,070 Speaker 2: Why is there rich? Why is there poor? Why is 1881 01:41:28,110 --> 01:41:30,420 Speaker 2: there water and is there not water? He said, but 1882 01:41:30,439 --> 01:41:33,360 Speaker 2: then the thought dawned on me. If there is no God, 1883 01:41:33,840 --> 01:41:38,240 Speaker 2: where do we get things like injustice from? Injustice assumes 1884 01:41:38,260 --> 01:41:42,930 Speaker 2: a standard of justice. A bent stick assumes a standard 1885 01:41:43,290 --> 01:41:47,349 Speaker 2: of straightness. When we say something's wrong, we're assuming that 1886 01:41:47,430 --> 01:41:48,810 Speaker 2: something is right. 1887 01:41:48,910 --> 01:41:50,330 Speaker 1: So where does your justice come from? 1888 01:41:50,650 --> 01:41:54,290 Speaker 2: Okay, so there's a difference between like the law. I'm 1889 01:41:54,330 --> 01:41:58,250 Speaker 2: saying justice, the source of justice is that God is 1890 01:41:58,390 --> 01:42:02,250 Speaker 2: just in his very character. These are not laws he invents. 1891 01:42:02,610 --> 01:42:05,850 Speaker 2: The source is not the Bible. It's the character of 1892 01:42:05,930 --> 01:42:11,820 Speaker 2: God himself is just, is holy, is loving. So since 1893 01:42:11,860 --> 01:42:14,960 Speaker 2: God is immaterial, it would make sense in the world 1894 01:42:15,300 --> 01:42:18,380 Speaker 2: that we believe in justice and injustice. We believe in 1895 01:42:18,439 --> 01:42:21,670 Speaker 2: things like love that are not material. And we believe 1896 01:42:21,810 --> 01:42:24,570 Speaker 2: in right and wrong, good and evil, and write stories 1897 01:42:24,610 --> 01:42:27,170 Speaker 2: that reflect. We kind of think we live in a 1898 01:42:27,310 --> 01:42:32,120 Speaker 2: universe in which morality really reigns and is real. I'm 1899 01:42:32,140 --> 01:42:35,520 Speaker 2: not saying that proves God. I'm just simply saying this 1900 01:42:35,600 --> 01:42:39,420 Speaker 2: is a signpost. It doesn't prove God. Let me frame 1901 01:42:39,460 --> 01:42:41,340 Speaker 2: how I look at it. I think this is a 1902 01:42:41,580 --> 01:42:47,990 Speaker 2: signpost pointing more towards God than materialism or an atheistic worldview. 1903 01:42:48,590 --> 01:42:51,670 Speaker 2: So if we really act and believe like there's a 1904 01:42:51,770 --> 01:42:55,470 Speaker 2: moral law, and you rightly push back, I get it. Like, 1905 01:42:55,570 --> 01:42:58,550 Speaker 2: why are these kids suffering? Why doesn't God do this? 1906 01:42:58,670 --> 01:43:04,350 Speaker 2: That's a cry for justice that's built deep within us. Like, 1907 01:43:04,520 --> 01:43:09,240 Speaker 2: that's unjust. That assumes there's a standard of justice by 1908 01:43:09,300 --> 01:43:13,479 Speaker 2: which we can judge God. That doesn't fit within a 1909 01:43:13,500 --> 01:43:18,100 Speaker 2: materialistic universe. But if God is just... And immaterial things 1910 01:43:18,160 --> 01:43:19,420 Speaker 2: are real. And I guess the way I would frame 1911 01:43:19,439 --> 01:43:22,840 Speaker 2: it is if there's a moral law, then there's a 1912 01:43:22,939 --> 01:43:27,410 Speaker 2: moral law giver. That would be the best explanation of 1913 01:43:27,510 --> 01:43:29,650 Speaker 2: the moral law. It doesn't prove God. 1914 01:43:29,670 --> 01:43:30,190 Speaker 1: No. 1915 01:43:30,430 --> 01:43:33,530 Speaker 2: But I would say like beauty, if there's really beauty 1916 01:43:33,610 --> 01:43:36,730 Speaker 2: built into the world, that points towards an artist. Just 1917 01:43:36,770 --> 01:43:38,650 Speaker 2: like the beauty of these covers, and I think they're 1918 01:43:38,670 --> 01:43:42,920 Speaker 2: objectively beautiful, that points towards an artist. Same with the world. 1919 01:43:43,000 --> 01:43:45,810 Speaker 2: Morality exists. You're crying towards me, and I get it. 1920 01:43:45,830 --> 01:43:46,950 Speaker 2: You're like, this is wrong. 1921 01:43:47,030 --> 01:43:47,809 Speaker 1: This is evil. 1922 01:43:47,850 --> 01:43:50,350 Speaker 2: This is unjust. And I go, Todd, I'm with you. 1923 01:43:51,100 --> 01:43:53,520 Speaker 2: But that assumes a standard of right and wrong that 1924 01:43:53,560 --> 01:43:57,340 Speaker 2: makes no sense in a materialistic universe. You're acting like 1925 01:43:57,360 --> 01:44:00,100 Speaker 2: there's a moral law, which means there's a moral lawgiver. 1926 01:44:00,640 --> 01:44:03,599 Speaker 2: At least that's the best explanation of it. 1927 01:44:03,790 --> 01:44:04,410 Speaker 1: I disagree. 1928 01:44:04,430 --> 01:44:06,050 Speaker 2: Okay, tell me why. 1929 01:44:07,570 --> 01:44:09,610 Speaker 1: Why can't the world just be what we make of 1930 01:44:09,689 --> 01:44:10,190 Speaker 1: it each day? 1931 01:44:11,080 --> 01:44:12,880 Speaker 2: Well, then there's not a moral law. That's just what 1932 01:44:12,900 --> 01:44:13,479 Speaker 2: we make of it. 1933 01:44:13,540 --> 01:44:16,280 Speaker 1: There are human beings here. We have a brain. We 1934 01:44:16,300 --> 01:44:20,290 Speaker 1: have intellect. And we make decisions. Our perceptions, our decisions 1935 01:44:20,850 --> 01:44:27,450 Speaker 1: control what happens every single day. Done. Done. Why does 1936 01:44:27,710 --> 01:44:30,309 Speaker 1: there have to be an origin for it? It doesn't 1937 01:44:30,350 --> 01:44:31,759 Speaker 1: have to be an origin for it. 1938 01:44:31,770 --> 01:44:35,670 Speaker 2: There has to be. So if we're just brains acting 1939 01:44:35,689 --> 01:44:38,320 Speaker 2: in the world, We're human. Then certain things– so when 1940 01:44:38,340 --> 01:44:41,070 Speaker 2: we say we're humans, that still raises the question, what 1941 01:44:41,090 --> 01:44:43,310 Speaker 2: does it mean to be human? Are we just body, 1942 01:44:43,350 --> 01:44:44,830 Speaker 2: just brain, or do we have a soul? 1943 01:44:44,970 --> 01:44:45,550 Speaker 1: I don't know. 1944 01:44:45,750 --> 01:44:46,870 Speaker 2: I think– Oh, that's fair. 1945 01:44:46,990 --> 01:44:48,570 Speaker 1: Right. I don't know. So here's what I would say. 1946 01:44:48,630 --> 01:44:51,230 Speaker 1: I've only got what I've got. I'm a human. I 1947 01:44:51,260 --> 01:44:54,439 Speaker 1: can only think with a human brain, human thoughts. That's 1948 01:44:54,460 --> 01:44:56,840 Speaker 1: all I've got. I've got. I can't go up to 1949 01:44:56,920 --> 01:44:59,460 Speaker 1: any other tier. I only have to deal with what's 1950 01:44:59,500 --> 01:45:02,320 Speaker 1: in my toolbox, and what's in my toolbox– Is being 1951 01:45:02,380 --> 01:45:05,479 Speaker 1: a human being, that's all I've got today, Sean. I agree. 1952 01:45:05,560 --> 01:45:07,519 Speaker 1: And what makes the most sense for a guy like 1953 01:45:07,590 --> 01:45:12,510 Speaker 1: me is if there isn't any gods, not yours, anybody, 1954 01:45:13,530 --> 01:45:17,710 Speaker 1: it all makes sense. That actually makes the most sense. 1955 01:45:19,250 --> 01:45:25,130 Speaker 1: Why then would people be cruel? Why would people have agendas? 1956 01:45:25,590 --> 01:45:29,750 Speaker 1: Why would people do all this? Because they're human and 1957 01:45:29,770 --> 01:45:33,309 Speaker 1: they're flawed and they're greedy. And it's like, okay, cool. 1958 01:45:33,380 --> 01:45:35,740 Speaker 1: And they do stuff. And we just do it. And 1959 01:45:35,780 --> 01:45:38,080 Speaker 1: why do we war? Because, I don't know, we've got 1960 01:45:38,120 --> 01:45:40,559 Speaker 1: a hundred reasons why we do everything. And here's the 1961 01:45:40,600 --> 01:45:44,140 Speaker 1: problem with us. Here's our flaw. Is that we can 1962 01:45:44,200 --> 01:45:49,349 Speaker 1: convince ourselves, myself included, we all have our biases, that 1963 01:45:49,470 --> 01:45:56,639 Speaker 1: our perceptions become our realities. And that's the flaw in 1964 01:45:56,850 --> 01:45:58,849 Speaker 1: all of us, that we get blinders, all of us. 1965 01:45:59,400 --> 01:46:02,720 Speaker 1: Of going, oh, I believe that to be true, and 1966 01:46:03,020 --> 01:46:05,830 Speaker 1: I go and do it. Because nobody, it's hard for 1967 01:46:05,850 --> 01:46:12,090 Speaker 1: me to imagine, Sean, anybody acts without some cognizant thought, right? 1968 01:46:12,229 --> 01:46:14,450 Speaker 1: So I think you could go to a serial killer 1969 01:46:14,770 --> 01:46:16,920 Speaker 1: and say, why did you kill? And they would give 1970 01:46:16,960 --> 01:46:20,360 Speaker 1: you reasons. We don't have to agree with a single 1971 01:46:20,439 --> 01:46:24,320 Speaker 1: one of them. But they would actually go, well, here's 1972 01:46:24,380 --> 01:46:26,320 Speaker 1: why I did it. So they came up with a 1973 01:46:26,460 --> 01:46:29,300 Speaker 1: reasoning and a rationale. But having a reasoning and a 1974 01:46:29,360 --> 01:46:33,300 Speaker 1: rationale for all of it doesn't in and of itself 1975 01:46:33,979 --> 01:46:39,450 Speaker 1: basically excuse our behavior. So if I go, huh, if 1976 01:46:39,490 --> 01:46:42,590 Speaker 1: there's nobody watching over us and nobody's paying attention and 1977 01:46:42,850 --> 01:46:46,689 Speaker 1: we're on our own, yeah, this all makes sense. This 1978 01:46:46,729 --> 01:46:49,880 Speaker 1: all makes sense. If there's something that's supposed to be 1979 01:46:49,939 --> 01:46:52,420 Speaker 1: bigger and all the religions say there's something bigger and 1980 01:46:52,439 --> 01:46:57,500 Speaker 1: they're just idly standing by for thousands of years and 1981 01:46:57,540 --> 01:47:00,220 Speaker 1: not putting water and food where it should be. But 1982 01:47:00,500 --> 01:47:02,880 Speaker 1: we'll get to that another day. And mosquitoes. I don't 1983 01:47:02,900 --> 01:47:10,380 Speaker 1: understand mosquitoes either. That seems, for a guy like me, Sean, 1984 01:47:10,700 --> 01:47:13,880 Speaker 1: that just seems cruel. And the reason is because all 1985 01:47:13,939 --> 01:47:16,000 Speaker 1: I'm doing, and here's my flaw. I'm going to give 1986 01:47:16,040 --> 01:47:19,300 Speaker 1: you my flaw. All I can do is think on 1987 01:47:19,340 --> 01:47:23,259 Speaker 1: those human terms and even more specifically, Todd, human terms, 1988 01:47:23,300 --> 01:47:27,229 Speaker 1: which actually should be the scariest sentence I just said today. 1989 01:47:27,910 --> 01:47:31,970 Speaker 1: And I just sit back and go, man, if I 1990 01:47:32,010 --> 01:47:35,770 Speaker 1: was God or one of these gods, the theory of God, 1991 01:47:35,790 --> 01:47:40,630 Speaker 1: I would do things different. I got to tell you, 1992 01:47:40,650 --> 01:47:43,030 Speaker 1: I would have done things a lot. And so I can't. 1993 01:47:43,950 --> 01:47:46,750 Speaker 1: Go for the ride of somebody I don't respect. And 1994 01:47:46,790 --> 01:47:55,350 Speaker 1: I don't respect that somehow you've got some sneaky answer, 1995 01:47:55,530 --> 01:47:59,469 Speaker 1: not you, but him, answer as to why you didn't 1996 01:47:59,530 --> 01:48:01,900 Speaker 1: have to feed the creatures you made. 1997 01:48:02,560 --> 01:48:03,720 Speaker 2: Do you respect Jesus? 1998 01:48:06,080 --> 01:48:11,080 Speaker 1: The man? No. Or the biblical thing. Like Jesus and God, 1999 01:48:11,120 --> 01:48:14,559 Speaker 1: they're all the same. But a man, I've met lots 2000 01:48:14,600 --> 01:48:15,060 Speaker 1: of good people. 2001 01:48:15,280 --> 01:48:18,530 Speaker 2: The Christian understanding, probably you would take issue. 2002 01:48:19,090 --> 01:48:21,300 Speaker 1: I don't think he is that. is this. In the 2003 01:48:21,320 --> 01:48:24,840 Speaker 1: version that they've written, the man, Jesus, probably exists. I'm 2004 01:48:24,880 --> 01:48:27,059 Speaker 1: sure he was a good guy. So try to do 2005 01:48:27,080 --> 01:48:27,639 Speaker 1: the best he could. 2006 01:48:27,680 --> 01:48:30,120 Speaker 2: Miracles, teachings, don't trust any of that. 2007 01:48:30,540 --> 01:48:31,019 Speaker 1: No miracles. 2008 01:48:31,880 --> 01:48:33,060 Speaker 2: Okay. 2009 01:48:33,320 --> 01:48:38,040 Speaker 1: Here, you can get me to miracles this quick. Right? 2010 01:48:38,080 --> 01:48:40,099 Speaker 1: This is easy. You get me to miracles this quick. 2011 01:48:42,620 --> 01:48:44,800 Speaker 1: Or I'll tell you one. I'll give you two, which 2012 01:48:44,840 --> 01:48:48,720 Speaker 1: is sort of silly. You got a small town. You 2013 01:48:48,760 --> 01:48:52,879 Speaker 1: got 10 houses. And there's a bit of an earthquake 2014 01:48:53,300 --> 01:48:56,020 Speaker 1: and a boulder breaks off. It comes rolling down the 2015 01:48:56,080 --> 01:48:59,660 Speaker 1: hill fast as can be. And it smashes headlong into 2016 01:48:59,700 --> 01:49:03,469 Speaker 1: that town. And it crushes nine out of the 10 houses. 2017 01:49:03,870 --> 01:49:10,630 Speaker 1: And one is left untouched. No harm to it. There 2018 01:49:10,670 --> 01:49:13,210 Speaker 1: are a lot of people, given that circumstance, would go, oh, 2019 01:49:13,220 --> 01:49:17,120 Speaker 1: my God, it's a miracle. Cool. So why, when the 2020 01:49:17,220 --> 01:49:19,780 Speaker 1: same thing happens when I'm out at the bowling alley 2021 01:49:21,340 --> 01:49:24,100 Speaker 1: and I throw that boulder right down the middle and 2022 01:49:24,160 --> 01:49:26,490 Speaker 1: I smash all 10 of those pins and they go 2023 01:49:26,610 --> 01:49:29,910 Speaker 1: flying all over and one of them is left untouched, 2024 01:49:30,450 --> 01:49:33,710 Speaker 1: why isn't that a miracle? They call that an attempted 2025 01:49:33,810 --> 01:49:40,019 Speaker 1: spare the next time I bowl. Why physically... When one 2026 01:49:40,060 --> 01:49:43,260 Speaker 1: thing happens, we don't even pay attention to it, but 2027 01:49:43,300 --> 01:49:46,860 Speaker 1: another one, we give an attribution to it of a miracle. 2028 01:49:46,920 --> 01:49:49,090 Speaker 1: But here's how you can get me to miracle. 2029 01:49:49,930 --> 01:49:51,520 Speaker 2: Can I talk about that one first before we talk 2030 01:49:51,550 --> 01:49:52,160 Speaker 2: about you getting there? 2031 01:49:53,020 --> 01:49:54,630 Speaker 1: Okay. No, go. 2032 01:49:56,229 --> 01:49:58,950 Speaker 2: All I would say is how we identify a miracle 2033 01:49:59,510 --> 01:50:02,519 Speaker 2: is not just a chance, one pin that stands up. 2034 01:50:03,090 --> 01:50:06,210 Speaker 2: It's a certain kind of event that resists or doesn't 2035 01:50:06,250 --> 01:50:09,320 Speaker 2: have a naturalistic explanation. And it's often the time and 2036 01:50:09,400 --> 01:50:12,260 Speaker 2: place that it happens. So the fact that I believe 2037 01:50:12,320 --> 01:50:15,559 Speaker 2: miracles happen and could point towards some is a little 2038 01:50:15,620 --> 01:50:18,960 Speaker 2: different than a bowling alley where one just remains standing. 2039 01:50:19,320 --> 01:50:21,780 Speaker 2: And we could talk about some of the criteria for miracles, 2040 01:50:21,850 --> 01:50:24,100 Speaker 2: but I don't know that that maps on to the 2041 01:50:24,160 --> 01:50:28,930 Speaker 2: kind of case that I would make is it. So anyways, 2042 01:50:28,950 --> 01:50:30,490 Speaker 2: tell me what would convince you, and then I've got 2043 01:50:30,530 --> 01:50:31,970 Speaker 2: another follow-up for you. 2044 01:50:32,130 --> 01:50:34,349 Speaker 1: Okay, no, so this one would get me in 10 seconds. 2045 01:50:36,150 --> 01:50:42,110 Speaker 1: Amputate somebody's arm. Grow an arm back. Grow an arm back. 2046 01:50:42,490 --> 01:50:46,050 Speaker 1: You made the arm. You're the inventor of the arm. 2047 01:50:47,650 --> 01:50:49,210 Speaker 1: Most people, when they come out of the womb, have 2048 01:50:49,270 --> 01:50:52,070 Speaker 1: two of them. So somebody's just got their arm cut off. 2049 01:50:53,310 --> 01:50:55,820 Speaker 1: Grow one arm. You should give us two, but just 2050 01:50:55,840 --> 01:51:01,719 Speaker 1: grow one arm back. You'll have me. And yet, there's 2051 01:51:01,780 --> 01:51:05,420 Speaker 1: no record. of any of us seeing the arm come back. 2052 01:51:05,740 --> 01:51:08,860 Speaker 1: We attribute 20 kids falling down a well and one 2053 01:51:08,880 --> 01:51:12,180 Speaker 1: of them living. That's just odds and circumstances. That's like 2054 01:51:12,220 --> 01:51:15,070 Speaker 1: dropping 20 eggs. One of them doesn't break. This is 2055 01:51:15,229 --> 01:51:21,330 Speaker 1: just randomness. Sadly, randomness. Grow an arm. Go cut off 2056 01:51:21,390 --> 01:51:23,870 Speaker 1: two people's legs. Get them to grow back. I'm with you. 2057 01:51:24,590 --> 01:51:29,330 Speaker 2: Keener, Craig Keener, New Testament scholar, did a two-volume academic 2058 01:51:29,470 --> 01:51:33,250 Speaker 2: study of miracles in 2010, I think it was. did 2059 01:51:33,270 --> 01:51:36,250 Speaker 2: a follow-up and argues there's even cases that can be 2060 01:51:36,330 --> 01:51:41,760 Speaker 2: carefully documented of limbs and others going back. Now, the 2061 01:51:41,800 --> 01:51:45,620 Speaker 2: only reason I say that is there's actually pretty good 2062 01:51:45,820 --> 01:51:48,560 Speaker 2: evidence for miracles for those willing to look at it. 2063 01:51:48,560 --> 01:51:51,940 Speaker 2: Let me give you one example of a supernatural phenomenon. 2064 01:51:52,939 --> 01:51:57,030 Speaker 2: I've done extensive interviews with him. I think it's there. Now, 2065 01:51:57,090 --> 01:52:04,150 Speaker 2: if you're... Okay. This week, interestingly enough... Had an agnostic 2066 01:52:04,229 --> 01:52:08,229 Speaker 2: friend of mine. We were having coffee. And no interest 2067 01:52:08,300 --> 01:52:11,220 Speaker 2: in God. Didn't seem he had his mind made up 2068 01:52:11,460 --> 01:52:15,259 Speaker 2: as firmly as you seem to. But had no interest 2069 01:52:15,320 --> 01:52:18,420 Speaker 2: in God. Didn't really matter to him when I brought 2070 01:52:18,479 --> 01:52:23,360 Speaker 2: up spiritual things. Rushed to the hospital. Had surgery. And 2071 01:52:23,420 --> 01:52:26,920 Speaker 2: describes to me, he goes, I died on the bed. 2072 01:52:27,340 --> 01:52:31,740 Speaker 2: Was resuscitated back. He goes, I had an out-of-body experience. 2073 01:52:32,630 --> 01:52:35,830 Speaker 2: And was able to look down at exactly the kinds 2074 01:52:35,890 --> 01:52:39,550 Speaker 2: of things that happened. And I came to it and 2075 01:52:39,570 --> 01:52:41,000 Speaker 2: I said, were you freaking out? And he goes, no, 2076 01:52:41,030 --> 01:52:43,390 Speaker 2: it was calm. It was clear. I could hear things. 2077 01:52:43,450 --> 01:52:45,900 Speaker 2: I could see things. When I got out of it, 2078 01:52:46,310 --> 01:52:50,090 Speaker 2: I described to the surgeons what happened. And they're like, 2079 01:52:50,150 --> 01:52:54,210 Speaker 2: how could you possibly know that? He was not seeking 2080 01:52:54,270 --> 01:52:56,970 Speaker 2: after God. He had no interest in the supernatural. And 2081 01:52:57,610 --> 01:52:59,930 Speaker 2: he goes, it seems like, you know, the universe is 2082 01:52:59,970 --> 01:53:02,220 Speaker 2: kind of looking out for me. Yeah. And I said, well, 2083 01:53:02,240 --> 01:53:04,720 Speaker 2: if you describe the universe looking out for you, that 2084 01:53:04,780 --> 01:53:07,910 Speaker 2: sounds like a person. That sounds like a mind that's 2085 01:53:07,930 --> 01:53:10,550 Speaker 2: doing this. Like universes don't have minds. They don't look 2086 01:53:10,590 --> 01:53:14,110 Speaker 2: out for anybody. He goes, okay, fair enough. I said, well, 2087 01:53:14,130 --> 01:53:16,570 Speaker 2: if it's looking out for you and keeping you alive, 2088 01:53:16,610 --> 01:53:18,590 Speaker 2: it sounds like this is a God who loves you 2089 01:53:19,170 --> 01:53:21,769 Speaker 2: and who cares about you. He goes, ah, I don't 2090 01:53:21,910 --> 01:53:23,870 Speaker 2: know if I'm quite ready to go there yet. I 2091 01:53:23,910 --> 01:53:26,730 Speaker 2: got to think about this. This is not somebody who 2092 01:53:27,090 --> 01:53:29,950 Speaker 2: didn't believe in spiritual things, not looking for it, not 2093 01:53:29,990 --> 01:53:36,550 Speaker 2: an isolated case. There's over 500 cases of peer-reviewed, near-death 2094 01:53:36,630 --> 01:53:41,650 Speaker 2: experiences of people seeing things and knowing things that could 2095 01:53:41,770 --> 01:53:44,370 Speaker 2: not have been seen or known in that kind of state. 2096 01:53:45,370 --> 01:53:47,710 Speaker 2: That's the kind of thing that doesn't give me certainty, 2097 01:53:48,410 --> 01:53:51,280 Speaker 2: but gives me pause and says, maybe this body's not 2098 01:53:51,300 --> 01:53:55,040 Speaker 2: all there is. Maybe there is a soul that continues after. 2099 01:53:55,060 --> 01:53:58,800 Speaker 2: And it's empirical evidence in the sense you can still 2100 01:53:58,900 --> 01:54:01,469 Speaker 2: talk to and interview a ton of people. I have 2101 01:54:02,330 --> 01:54:05,910 Speaker 2: on my channel. That's one line of evidence. So to 2102 01:54:05,970 --> 01:54:09,170 Speaker 2: step back for me, I look at the existence of, say, 2103 01:54:09,210 --> 01:54:12,880 Speaker 2: the moral law, we believe in justice and injustice, and 2104 01:54:12,920 --> 01:54:15,400 Speaker 2: just say, using my brain like you did, what makes 2105 01:54:15,460 --> 01:54:17,900 Speaker 2: the most sense that we act and live and breathe 2106 01:54:18,500 --> 01:54:21,219 Speaker 2: as if these things are real? I think there's really 2107 01:54:21,260 --> 01:54:24,570 Speaker 2: a moral law. Hence, there's a moral law giver. Look 2108 01:54:24,590 --> 01:54:27,410 Speaker 2: at things like near-death experiences. And I go, maybe we're 2109 01:54:27,450 --> 01:54:30,290 Speaker 2: more than just the body. There's something else going on here. 2110 01:54:30,310 --> 01:54:32,850 Speaker 2: That's a kind of empirical evidence, and that's only two 2111 01:54:32,890 --> 01:54:35,270 Speaker 2: of like a ton I could roll through. 2112 01:54:35,830 --> 01:54:37,590 Speaker 1: I wouldn't disagree with any of that. As a matter 2113 01:54:37,610 --> 01:54:41,070 Speaker 1: of fact, I've heard those same stories. Again, I'm not 2114 01:54:41,110 --> 01:54:43,460 Speaker 1: here to– like I don't know what happens once we die. 2115 01:54:43,540 --> 01:54:47,400 Speaker 1: There could be a million possibilities. We'll find out when 2116 01:54:47,440 --> 01:54:49,240 Speaker 1: we get there, you and I. We'll find out when 2117 01:54:49,260 --> 01:54:54,810 Speaker 1: we get there. But because somebody had– a near-death experience 2118 01:54:54,930 --> 01:54:57,610 Speaker 1: or whatever else, again, doesn't go back to the unicorn. 2119 01:54:58,450 --> 01:55:00,030 Speaker 1: Like everything all of a sudden defaults. 2120 01:55:00,050 --> 01:55:01,290 Speaker 2: That's not my argument, by the way. 2121 01:55:02,070 --> 01:55:04,110 Speaker 1: Or you go, God was watching out for you. That's 2122 01:55:04,150 --> 01:55:10,440 Speaker 1: the unicorn again. Like why? Why can't it be another option? 2123 01:55:10,610 --> 01:55:16,040 Speaker 1: Why can't it be something not unicorn-related at that moment? 2124 01:55:16,120 --> 01:55:20,150 Speaker 1: Why can't it just be, huh? So maybe the evidence 2125 01:55:20,190 --> 01:55:25,050 Speaker 1: says something else might be out there. It doesn't mean 2126 01:55:25,230 --> 01:55:28,570 Speaker 1: that it advocates for anything that we know prior. It 2127 01:55:28,610 --> 01:55:33,400 Speaker 1: just means maybe something happens to us. Done. But everybody 2128 01:55:33,420 --> 01:55:36,879 Speaker 1: wants to go to their little corner with it and go, aha, 2129 01:55:36,940 --> 01:55:40,360 Speaker 1: so that proves my thing. No, it proves that maybe 2130 01:55:40,840 --> 01:55:44,750 Speaker 1: potentially it's proven anything or potentially proven anything. is that 2131 01:55:44,910 --> 01:55:47,130 Speaker 1: it's not ashes to ashes, dust to dust, because people 2132 01:55:47,190 --> 01:55:49,650 Speaker 1: are coming up and saying that it's not, that there's more. 2133 01:55:50,270 --> 01:55:54,030 Speaker 1: But it doesn't then qualify any of the other theories 2134 01:55:54,840 --> 01:55:58,100 Speaker 1: that were there behind it. We keep going back straight 2135 01:55:58,180 --> 01:56:02,980 Speaker 1: to that in a straight line that there's no other possibility. 2136 01:56:03,020 --> 01:56:05,580 Speaker 1: There's no other possibility other than the Big Bang Theory 2137 01:56:07,080 --> 01:56:13,250 Speaker 1: and anybody around the globe, God. It's weird that nobody 2138 01:56:13,340 --> 01:56:16,240 Speaker 1: argues about anything. There's got to be like a million 2139 01:56:16,280 --> 01:56:18,340 Speaker 1: in between. There's got to be a million possibilities. We 2140 01:56:18,360 --> 01:56:21,420 Speaker 1: all get sort of thinking about it that there's other possibilities. 2141 01:56:21,460 --> 01:56:22,900 Speaker 1: I don't know what they are. I'm not smart enough. 2142 01:56:22,960 --> 01:56:25,000 Speaker 1: I'm a comic guy. But I'm going, it can't just 2143 01:56:25,040 --> 01:56:28,940 Speaker 1: be A or B. This is weird. Science and religion 2144 01:56:29,060 --> 01:56:31,480 Speaker 1: argue it's either A or B. There might be a 2145 01:56:31,500 --> 01:56:34,860 Speaker 1: whole alphabet we don't know about. Nobody wants to argue 2146 01:56:34,890 --> 01:56:37,950 Speaker 1: the other letters in the alphabet because there's not a 2147 01:56:37,990 --> 01:56:42,840 Speaker 1: strong enough belief in that. So again, Sean. I'm not 2148 01:56:42,880 --> 01:56:46,400 Speaker 1: here to disavow anybody's life experiences that are there. I'm 2149 01:56:46,420 --> 01:56:48,930 Speaker 1: just saying that at the end of the day, that 2150 01:56:48,970 --> 01:56:54,230 Speaker 1: experience with your friend doesn't then change the zero on 2151 01:56:54,270 --> 01:56:55,810 Speaker 1: my board. It doesn't change the zero. 2152 01:56:55,910 --> 01:56:57,870 Speaker 2: Okay, that's fine. 2153 01:56:57,910 --> 01:57:01,810 Speaker 1: It doesn't prove because that thought isn't the empirical of 2154 01:57:01,870 --> 01:57:06,390 Speaker 1: then everybody would come to the same result of what happened. 2155 01:57:06,410 --> 01:57:08,030 Speaker 1: I agree. 2156 01:57:08,340 --> 01:57:10,800 Speaker 2: So I agree with that. And I'm not here to 2157 01:57:10,900 --> 01:57:13,740 Speaker 2: change your mind. Obviously, I have your views. I have mine. 2158 01:57:14,580 --> 01:57:19,230 Speaker 2: Talk these through. No, no, no. Just to be clear, Sean. 2159 01:57:20,170 --> 01:57:23,070 Speaker 1: You're a good guy. I hope I'm okay. I'm not 2160 01:57:23,110 --> 01:57:24,610 Speaker 1: going to be as good as you. I'm okay. I 2161 01:57:24,630 --> 01:57:30,890 Speaker 1: don't know about that. I'm okay. Changing isn't... I don't 2162 01:57:31,830 --> 01:57:35,300 Speaker 1: think it's any of our jobs to change anybody. Our 2163 01:57:35,350 --> 01:57:39,790 Speaker 1: job is to... enjoy the colors of the rainbow that 2164 01:57:39,830 --> 01:57:43,640 Speaker 1: are like like people being different is a joy in 2165 01:57:43,680 --> 01:57:47,120 Speaker 1: my life i actually find it to be joyful i 2166 01:57:47,340 --> 01:57:52,350 Speaker 1: i i i i i punish myself at times to 2167 01:57:52,370 --> 01:57:53,810 Speaker 1: go man i wish i could be more like that 2168 01:57:53,870 --> 01:57:55,990 Speaker 1: person or more like that person i wish i knew 2169 01:57:56,070 --> 01:57:58,070 Speaker 1: more about that subject i wish i knew more about 2170 01:57:58,130 --> 01:58:00,390 Speaker 1: that like that person's always got a smile on their 2171 01:58:00,430 --> 01:58:03,370 Speaker 1: face that person's so giving Right? I just, I go, 2172 01:58:03,380 --> 01:58:05,690 Speaker 1: I know I can't be like that. Right? All the time. 2173 01:58:05,740 --> 01:58:09,730 Speaker 1: I just, and I admire a lot of things in 2174 01:58:09,750 --> 01:58:16,920 Speaker 1: the world. My personal frustrations come when instead of trying 2175 01:58:16,960 --> 01:58:21,740 Speaker 1: to add to the color palette, we try to narrow 2176 01:58:21,800 --> 01:58:27,520 Speaker 1: at times the color palette with these sort of sort 2177 01:58:27,540 --> 01:58:30,520 Speaker 1: of beliefs at times of like this is sort of 2178 01:58:30,900 --> 01:58:33,400 Speaker 1: how we should be doing stuff over here instead of 2179 01:58:33,420 --> 01:58:37,160 Speaker 1: going live and let live right like as long as 2180 01:58:37,190 --> 01:58:38,710 Speaker 1: they're not doing harm to you what do you care 2181 01:58:39,030 --> 01:58:41,490 Speaker 1: right like what like I don't understand now the internet 2182 01:58:42,070 --> 01:58:43,730 Speaker 1: has exacerbated. 2183 01:58:43,070 --> 01:58:44,930 Speaker 2: This let me say oh I agree with that. 2184 01:58:44,790 --> 01:58:49,250 Speaker 1: That the internet gives everybody an opinion I don't understand 2185 01:58:49,710 --> 01:58:54,110 Speaker 1: right it's weird to me why anybody cares who Taylor 2186 01:58:54,150 --> 01:58:59,740 Speaker 1: Swift is dating right Don't understand it. Why does it matter? 2187 01:59:00,400 --> 01:59:02,510 Speaker 1: I don't know. Here's how I wish. I'm going to 2188 01:59:02,530 --> 01:59:04,910 Speaker 1: give you a weird one. Here's how I wish if 2189 01:59:04,950 --> 01:59:07,530 Speaker 1: I could pass a wand. I wish people lived their life. 2190 01:59:08,310 --> 01:59:11,030 Speaker 1: I wish people lived their life, most people, like the 2191 01:59:11,070 --> 01:59:14,190 Speaker 1: way they shop at a grocery store. You walk in 2192 01:59:14,230 --> 01:59:18,610 Speaker 1: a grocery store. Thousands and thousands of things are presented 2193 01:59:18,640 --> 01:59:21,200 Speaker 1: to you. And you get to see them all if 2194 01:59:21,220 --> 01:59:22,540 Speaker 1: you go up and down because you've got to do 2195 01:59:22,560 --> 01:59:25,600 Speaker 1: your weekly shopping. And you take your cart. And you 2196 01:59:25,640 --> 01:59:29,620 Speaker 1: put in your cart what you personally enjoy and you 2197 01:59:29,640 --> 01:59:31,200 Speaker 1: think is a fair value and you think it's good 2198 01:59:31,220 --> 01:59:33,200 Speaker 1: and healthy or whatever it is for your family. You 2199 01:59:33,220 --> 01:59:34,860 Speaker 1: think it's, this is the good stuff. This is what 2200 01:59:34,900 --> 01:59:38,170 Speaker 1: I want. And then you pay your bill and you 2201 01:59:38,190 --> 01:59:42,710 Speaker 1: walk out. What you don't do, what we don't do 2202 01:59:42,750 --> 01:59:45,110 Speaker 1: at a shopping one is go, could I see the 2203 01:59:45,130 --> 01:59:52,410 Speaker 1: store manager? Just for the record, I hate Brussels sprouts. 2204 01:59:52,990 --> 01:59:55,440 Speaker 1: And you've got a whole section of Brussels sprouts there. 2205 01:59:55,480 --> 01:59:58,580 Speaker 1: My children had to walk by the Brussels sprouts. I 2206 01:59:58,620 --> 02:00:01,500 Speaker 1: hear they're terrible. I think they're terrible. I don't think 2207 02:00:01,520 --> 02:00:04,380 Speaker 1: they're healthy. How dare you have those things in the 2208 02:00:04,440 --> 02:00:07,780 Speaker 1: presence of my family? Instead, we don't do that. We 2209 02:00:07,820 --> 02:00:09,340 Speaker 1: don't do that. You know what we do? We just 2210 02:00:09,540 --> 02:00:15,810 Speaker 1: walk on by. And we take what is good for us. 2211 02:00:16,480 --> 02:00:20,290 Speaker 1: And we leave. And I wish we could live life 2212 02:00:20,790 --> 02:00:24,650 Speaker 1: more to that. My critics... Sean, I've only had one 2213 02:00:24,730 --> 02:00:28,190 Speaker 1: comeback to my critics, for the most part, for 40 years. 2214 02:00:29,140 --> 02:00:31,780 Speaker 1: When they say whatever they want to say, and they're 2215 02:00:31,820 --> 02:00:35,120 Speaker 1: allowed to have whatever opinion they want, because they bought it, 2216 02:00:35,120 --> 02:00:37,980 Speaker 1: it's theirs. If they were in front of me, I 2217 02:00:38,020 --> 02:00:39,760 Speaker 1: would gently tap them on the shoulder, and I've done 2218 02:00:39,800 --> 02:00:41,880 Speaker 1: this to some, and the answer is always the same. 2219 02:00:43,470 --> 02:00:46,310 Speaker 1: If you don't like what I'm doing, then you should 2220 02:00:46,350 --> 02:00:50,690 Speaker 1: spend your time and money on things you personally enjoy. 2221 02:00:50,830 --> 02:00:52,790 Speaker 1: I can't fix this for you. 2222 02:00:53,110 --> 02:00:53,350 Speaker 2: Yeah. 2223 02:00:54,170 --> 02:00:56,900 Speaker 1: Totally fair. I agree. This is a you thing. So 2224 02:00:58,520 --> 02:01:01,740 Speaker 1: just go get some stuff that you like. But I 2225 02:01:01,780 --> 02:01:03,180 Speaker 1: don't understand why you need to go to the Internet 2226 02:01:03,200 --> 02:01:05,700 Speaker 1: and talk about– I've said it before in interviews. You 2227 02:01:05,740 --> 02:01:06,370 Speaker 1: may have heard me. 2228 02:01:06,590 --> 02:01:07,270 Speaker 2: I have. 2229 02:01:07,470 --> 02:01:09,980 Speaker 1: I don't like Brussels sprouts. But I don't go to 2230 02:01:10,020 --> 02:01:14,850 Speaker 1: brusselsbrough.com and complain about them. I just don't consume it. 2231 02:01:15,410 --> 02:01:19,250 Speaker 1: I just don't consume it. So people that I perceive, 2232 02:01:19,290 --> 02:01:22,510 Speaker 1: that I judge, because I am as flawed as anybody else, Sean, 2233 02:01:23,310 --> 02:01:26,590 Speaker 1: I don't hang out with. I don't blame you. 2234 02:01:26,730 --> 02:01:27,150 Speaker 2: It's done. 2235 02:01:27,400 --> 02:01:31,920 Speaker 1: And so I just go, here's, I'm ultimately in charge 2236 02:01:31,960 --> 02:01:35,600 Speaker 1: of my own personal happiness. And I get to make 2237 02:01:35,640 --> 02:01:38,320 Speaker 1: the choices that get me there. And if I'm doing 2238 02:01:38,440 --> 02:01:43,290 Speaker 1: things that aren't happy, then it's a weird one. Because 2239 02:01:43,310 --> 02:01:44,530 Speaker 1: I've had plenty of people come up to me and 2240 02:01:44,550 --> 02:01:47,130 Speaker 1: they go, my dad drives me crazy. 50-year-old people, my 2241 02:01:47,150 --> 02:01:48,750 Speaker 1: dad drives me crazy. Why does he drive you crazy? 2242 02:01:48,770 --> 02:01:51,470 Speaker 1: Because whenever I take the kids over, he's mean and 2243 02:01:51,490 --> 02:01:55,730 Speaker 1: he's obnoxious to them, which isn't fun. And I understand why. 2244 02:01:55,760 --> 02:01:59,340 Speaker 1: And it's like, whoa, how long have you been doing this? Oh, 2245 02:01:59,680 --> 02:02:01,220 Speaker 1: almost his whole life. But for the last 20 years, 2246 02:02:01,260 --> 02:02:04,480 Speaker 1: he's always mean to the kids. I don't know. At 2247 02:02:04,520 --> 02:02:06,400 Speaker 1: times I can be black and white. I think that 2248 02:02:06,420 --> 02:02:09,710 Speaker 1: there's two options at that point. And I'm overly simplistic, 2249 02:02:09,990 --> 02:02:15,490 Speaker 1: so whatever. One, don't visit your dad anymore. It's an option. 2250 02:02:15,510 --> 02:02:20,570 Speaker 1: But that's a hard one for people. The other option is, well, 2251 02:02:20,910 --> 02:02:22,410 Speaker 1: I can't cut my dad out of my life. No, 2252 02:02:22,440 --> 02:02:26,060 Speaker 1: I understand that. Actually, it makes way more sense. Then 2253 02:02:26,080 --> 02:02:29,240 Speaker 1: you've got to go in knowing exactly that that tiger 2254 02:02:29,280 --> 02:02:31,740 Speaker 1: has stripes. So you've got to turn to your kids 2255 02:02:31,760 --> 02:02:34,070 Speaker 1: and go, look, we're going to go see grandpa. He's 2256 02:02:34,090 --> 02:02:35,850 Speaker 1: probably going to say a couple nasty things to you. 2257 02:02:36,250 --> 02:02:37,260 Speaker 1: Just get ready for it. Let's go. 2258 02:02:37,310 --> 02:02:38,030 Speaker 2: Let's go. 2259 02:02:38,530 --> 02:02:40,310 Speaker 1: And you just go. So when he does it, you 2260 02:02:40,330 --> 02:02:42,310 Speaker 1: all wink at each other and you go, she told you. 2261 02:02:42,790 --> 02:02:44,410 Speaker 1: I told you Grandpa was going to do it. Remember 2262 02:02:44,450 --> 02:02:45,850 Speaker 1: we had a bet. Was he going to do it 2263 02:02:45,870 --> 02:02:48,590 Speaker 1: at minute five or minute ten? Jimmy wins. Make a 2264 02:02:48,610 --> 02:02:51,610 Speaker 1: game out of it then. Instead of making it tense, 2265 02:02:52,100 --> 02:02:57,780 Speaker 1: just enjoy it. Enjoy. Look, I've got a mother-in-law that 2266 02:02:57,820 --> 02:03:00,540 Speaker 1: has dementia. And it's harsh. 2267 02:03:00,560 --> 02:03:01,940 Speaker 2: I've got family members too. I get it. 2268 02:03:01,940 --> 02:03:05,750 Speaker 1: It's harsh. It's harsh. So all you can do, and 2269 02:03:05,790 --> 02:03:13,860 Speaker 1: her memory now is probably 30 seconds. It's tight. All 2270 02:03:13,900 --> 02:03:17,960 Speaker 1: you can do is just be in the moment for 30. 2271 02:03:17,960 --> 02:03:21,540 Speaker 1: And then if she asks the exact same question, be 2272 02:03:21,580 --> 02:03:23,440 Speaker 1: in the moment for that 30. And you may have 2273 02:03:23,460 --> 02:03:24,940 Speaker 1: to answer the question. I've done it. I've had to 2274 02:03:25,020 --> 02:03:27,920 Speaker 1: answer the question 20 times. but it's new to them 2275 02:03:27,960 --> 02:03:31,730 Speaker 1: every single time. Let's go. I don't use words like, hey, 2276 02:03:31,750 --> 02:03:33,210 Speaker 1: don't you remember I told you? I don't do that. 2277 02:03:33,250 --> 02:03:36,330 Speaker 1: I don't insult her. She's got dementia. And I don't go, hey, 2278 02:03:36,370 --> 02:03:37,940 Speaker 1: we've talked about this before. I don't do any of it. 2279 02:03:38,330 --> 02:03:42,230 Speaker 1: I just go, this is Groundhog Day. Let's go. Let's go. 2280 02:03:42,650 --> 02:03:45,580 Speaker 1: Let's go. And if I can't do that, then I 2281 02:03:45,620 --> 02:03:48,000 Speaker 1: shouldn't be visiting her or I keep my visits short. 2282 02:03:48,600 --> 02:03:50,380 Speaker 1: But I can do it. I can actually do it 2283 02:03:50,400 --> 02:03:52,980 Speaker 1: for hours, right? Like, oh, let's have a good time. Why? 2284 02:03:53,220 --> 02:03:55,100 Speaker 1: Because every time you give her the same information, if 2285 02:03:55,160 --> 02:03:59,870 Speaker 1: it's a happy memory, It puts a smile on their 2286 02:03:59,890 --> 02:04:03,470 Speaker 1: face and you go, wow, she got 40 smiles. In 2287 02:04:03,510 --> 02:04:05,690 Speaker 1: a normal circumstance, she might have only smiled once because 2288 02:04:05,710 --> 02:04:08,400 Speaker 1: she would have remembered that information. But she got told 2289 02:04:08,440 --> 02:04:10,820 Speaker 1: that information 40 times and got to smile 40 times. 2290 02:04:11,580 --> 02:04:14,380 Speaker 1: What's wrong with that? Not bad. I mean, obviously, we 2291 02:04:14,400 --> 02:04:17,090 Speaker 1: wish she didn't have dementia. But here we go. So you, 2292 02:04:17,330 --> 02:04:19,150 Speaker 1: I don't know, at times you have to just make 2293 02:04:19,530 --> 02:04:22,810 Speaker 1: lemonade out of the lemons that are dealt to you, Sean. 2294 02:04:22,850 --> 02:04:26,020 Speaker 1: And that's all we got. But those are personal decisions. 2295 02:04:26,520 --> 02:04:29,560 Speaker 1: And you and I, everybody, we have to find inner peace. 2296 02:04:31,160 --> 02:04:33,980 Speaker 1: I've got my things that give me inner peace, as 2297 02:04:34,840 --> 02:04:36,820 Speaker 1: odd as it may be for people. And I understand 2298 02:04:36,960 --> 02:04:39,640 Speaker 1: my oddness, let me tell you. My mom scratched her 2299 02:04:39,660 --> 02:04:43,040 Speaker 1: head many times, Sean, about her own son. So she 2300 02:04:43,060 --> 02:04:45,440 Speaker 1: would have, if you would have said, Shirley, her name 2301 02:04:45,460 --> 02:04:47,400 Speaker 1: was Shirley. If you had said, and she's not here, 2302 02:04:47,440 --> 02:04:49,400 Speaker 1: but if you said, Shirley, tell me about Todd. Here's 2303 02:04:49,440 --> 02:04:51,760 Speaker 1: what I know her first reaction would be. She would 2304 02:04:51,840 --> 02:04:52,560 Speaker 1: roll her eyes. 2305 02:04:52,580 --> 02:04:53,520 Speaker 2: That's great. 2306 02:04:53,840 --> 02:04:57,590 Speaker 1: She would go, because it would be the where to begin, 2307 02:04:58,290 --> 02:05:01,050 Speaker 1: where to begin with Todd. He has been in trouble 2308 02:05:01,570 --> 02:05:04,910 Speaker 1: since the first day. I have been on a first 2309 02:05:04,950 --> 02:05:06,970 Speaker 1: name basis with every principal at every school I've ever 2310 02:05:06,990 --> 02:05:11,830 Speaker 1: gone to. Right. So I again, I'm not advocating anybody 2311 02:05:12,310 --> 02:05:16,500 Speaker 1: to be like me on any level, not even my children. 2312 02:05:16,600 --> 02:05:20,700 Speaker 1: I don't wish me on my children. I just know 2313 02:05:21,040 --> 02:05:26,720 Speaker 1: that the life I've lived, given the adversity I've had 2314 02:05:26,760 --> 02:05:31,780 Speaker 1: to go against with building my career and status quo 2315 02:05:32,100 --> 02:05:35,910 Speaker 1: that I've had to rail against. I've had to just 2316 02:05:36,470 --> 02:05:41,570 Speaker 1: build this Todd and it works. It works for me. 2317 02:05:42,530 --> 02:05:45,060 Speaker 1: I don't like, I go to MBA. Sometimes I talk 2318 02:05:45,070 --> 02:05:47,220 Speaker 1: to MBA classes and the first thing I do is 2319 02:05:47,280 --> 02:05:48,420 Speaker 1: I go, I'm not telling you how to make money 2320 02:05:49,040 --> 02:05:51,300 Speaker 1: and they hate it. Sean, I got to tell you, 2321 02:05:51,400 --> 02:05:54,760 Speaker 1: they hate it. Like 80% of them are sitting there 2322 02:05:54,780 --> 02:05:56,610 Speaker 1: and they throw their pencil down and look at their 2323 02:05:56,630 --> 02:05:58,930 Speaker 1: guy and they're going, bro, you're not going to tell 2324 02:05:58,970 --> 02:06:00,630 Speaker 1: us in 10 steps how to make a million bucks. 2325 02:06:00,650 --> 02:06:02,720 Speaker 1: What are we here for? You know what I talk 2326 02:06:02,740 --> 02:06:04,980 Speaker 1: to them about for the most part? Keep your integrity. 2327 02:06:06,200 --> 02:06:07,540 Speaker 1: I think it's the only thing that goes to your 2328 02:06:07,580 --> 02:06:12,860 Speaker 1: grave with you is your integrity, right? Money, that's fleeting, right? 2329 02:06:12,980 --> 02:06:14,840 Speaker 1: Like it comes and goes. And oh, by the way, 2330 02:06:14,850 --> 02:06:16,510 Speaker 1: if you're going to be a douchebag, make sure you're 2331 02:06:16,530 --> 02:06:19,690 Speaker 1: making money for somebody, right? Because nobody hangs out with 2332 02:06:19,750 --> 02:06:23,470 Speaker 1: bad people willingly. They only do it because he serves 2333 02:06:23,550 --> 02:06:26,270 Speaker 1: a purpose. And you can see they're all like, and 2334 02:06:26,310 --> 02:06:28,290 Speaker 1: out of usually a hundred people, and I'll honestly, about 2335 02:06:28,310 --> 02:06:30,790 Speaker 1: a hundred people, I know I'm only talking to four. 2336 02:06:31,430 --> 02:06:33,600 Speaker 1: Because everybody else is already baby sharks. They're going to 2337 02:06:33,640 --> 02:06:35,480 Speaker 1: sell their soul. They're going to go to Wall Street, whatever. 2338 02:06:36,000 --> 02:06:38,160 Speaker 1: But sometimes I end it with this. I go, hey, 2339 02:06:38,200 --> 02:06:40,620 Speaker 1: thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. 2340 02:06:41,320 --> 02:06:42,880 Speaker 1: I was just going to go. There's a couple more things, 2341 02:06:42,940 --> 02:06:45,360 Speaker 1: and I'm going to go. Appreciate your time. Let's just 2342 02:06:45,880 --> 02:06:49,430 Speaker 1: do a hypothetical here. You wake up tomorrow. You're not 2343 02:06:49,440 --> 02:06:53,310 Speaker 1: feeling very good. And by noon, you're feeling terrible. So 2344 02:06:53,330 --> 02:06:55,230 Speaker 1: you make a phone call. They said, yeah, yeah, yeah. 2345 02:06:55,250 --> 02:06:56,830 Speaker 1: We can squeeze you in the doctor's office. You go 2346 02:06:56,850 --> 02:06:59,150 Speaker 1: to the doctor's office. Go see the doc. They take 2347 02:06:59,510 --> 02:07:01,550 Speaker 1: draws of blood. And they said they're going to run 2348 02:07:01,590 --> 02:07:03,670 Speaker 1: it out to the lab, run all the tests. You 2349 02:07:03,690 --> 02:07:05,950 Speaker 1: go in the lobby. You wait. So you go out there, 2350 02:07:06,210 --> 02:07:08,010 Speaker 1: get your phone, look on your cell phone for a while. 2351 02:07:08,430 --> 02:07:11,430 Speaker 1: Forty-five minutes later, Doc comes out. He's got a dead 2352 02:07:11,490 --> 02:07:14,650 Speaker 1: serious look on his face. And he comes and he says, 2353 02:07:14,690 --> 02:07:17,270 Speaker 1: I need you back in the room. You go back 2354 02:07:17,310 --> 02:07:20,010 Speaker 1: into the room with the doctor. And then he breaks 2355 02:07:20,090 --> 02:07:23,170 Speaker 1: it to you. We ran all the tests three times. 2356 02:07:24,030 --> 02:07:30,870 Speaker 1: You have inoperable cancer. Modern medicine. can do nothing for you. 2357 02:07:31,230 --> 02:07:34,210 Speaker 1: It's too late. You will be dead in three weeks. 2358 02:07:35,850 --> 02:07:38,850 Speaker 1: I'm sorry to have to deliver it to you. Now, 2359 02:07:39,840 --> 02:07:43,120 Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you two questions before I go. One, 2360 02:07:44,320 --> 02:07:47,820 Speaker 1: given that you know that to be a fact and 2361 02:07:47,840 --> 02:07:50,580 Speaker 1: that you're going to be dead in three weeks, I'm 2362 02:07:50,600 --> 02:07:53,200 Speaker 1: going to assume everybody in this room has somebody they 2363 02:07:53,240 --> 02:07:58,560 Speaker 1: care about deeply. And if you care for them, I'm 2364 02:07:58,580 --> 02:08:01,480 Speaker 1: going to assume they care for you too, just as deeply. 2365 02:08:02,420 --> 02:08:04,620 Speaker 1: But in three weeks, that human being is going to 2366 02:08:04,640 --> 02:08:09,240 Speaker 1: be without you. Can you imagine the heartache and the 2367 02:08:09,360 --> 02:08:12,020 Speaker 1: pain and the grief that human beings are going to 2368 02:08:12,040 --> 02:08:18,070 Speaker 1: go through? It's going to be trying. So my first question, 2369 02:08:19,970 --> 02:08:23,690 Speaker 1: If you could pick one person to help the one 2370 02:08:23,720 --> 02:08:27,700 Speaker 1: that you love the most, to soft land, to just 2371 02:08:27,820 --> 02:08:32,379 Speaker 1: be there, to comfort them, to just be a shoulder 2372 02:08:33,900 --> 02:08:36,340 Speaker 1: through that time when you're not going to be there, 2373 02:08:38,040 --> 02:08:41,280 Speaker 1: who would that person be? I'll give you 15 seconds 2374 02:08:41,320 --> 02:08:43,600 Speaker 1: to think of them. And I do, Sean. I stand 2375 02:08:44,050 --> 02:08:49,870 Speaker 1: in silence for 15 seconds. And then I go, I'm now, 2376 02:08:50,190 --> 02:08:52,250 Speaker 1: before I go, going to ask you my very last question. 2377 02:08:53,270 --> 02:08:57,070 Speaker 1: The person you just chose, are they the richest person 2378 02:08:57,110 --> 02:08:59,760 Speaker 1: you know or are they the best person that you know? 2379 02:09:01,440 --> 02:09:05,640 Speaker 1: Why not be that second person? You guys are chasing money. 2380 02:09:06,640 --> 02:09:09,980 Speaker 1: And when it mattered, you didn't go there. Not even you. 2381 02:09:11,160 --> 02:09:15,940 Speaker 1: Be good. Just be good. Somebody will always want you. 2382 02:09:16,560 --> 02:09:19,960 Speaker 1: You can always be needed. Nothing wrong with that. 2383 02:09:21,520 --> 02:09:23,900 Speaker 2: It's not too far from some of the teachings of Jesus. 2384 02:09:24,060 --> 02:09:24,260 Speaker 1: No. 2385 02:09:24,380 --> 02:09:27,660 Speaker 2: About winning the world and losing your soul in many ways. 2386 02:09:27,770 --> 02:09:31,370 Speaker 2: There's some overlap about what matters. Hey, you've been super 2387 02:09:31,430 --> 02:09:34,390 Speaker 2: generous with your time, Todd. In a minute, I'm going 2388 02:09:34,530 --> 02:09:36,410 Speaker 2: to ask you if I missed anything, anything else you 2389 02:09:36,430 --> 02:09:40,870 Speaker 2: want to throw in there. But for people watching, implant 2390 02:09:40,890 --> 02:09:43,290 Speaker 2: an idea. If you ever want to just continue this conversation, 2391 02:09:43,350 --> 02:09:44,550 Speaker 2: I'd do it in a heartbeat. 2392 02:09:45,320 --> 02:09:49,280 Speaker 1: So let me just throw something, just hopefully I haven't 2393 02:09:49,320 --> 02:09:53,930 Speaker 1: offended too many people here and whatever else, that I 2394 02:09:54,010 --> 02:09:57,410 Speaker 1: have to be this guy because the result of it 2395 02:09:57,510 --> 02:10:00,950 Speaker 1: that at times, and you sort of said at the beginning, oh, Todd, 2396 02:10:01,170 --> 02:10:04,340 Speaker 1: you did some things that I enjoyed. It had to 2397 02:10:04,400 --> 02:10:08,640 Speaker 1: come from that same place, right? So let's just talk about, 2398 02:10:08,660 --> 02:10:12,860 Speaker 1: and you've heard it, the creation of Venom, right? The 2399 02:10:12,900 --> 02:10:17,510 Speaker 1: creation of Venom comes as a complete happy accident, but 2400 02:10:17,530 --> 02:10:21,280 Speaker 1: it also is because of my rebellious attitude, right? So 2401 02:10:21,300 --> 02:10:24,480 Speaker 1: if it wasn't there, there may be no venom. I mean, 2402 02:10:24,520 --> 02:10:28,880 Speaker 1: it's true. And so I'm a young artist. I finally 2403 02:10:28,920 --> 02:10:31,800 Speaker 1: catch my break. I prove my worth. I have a 2404 02:10:31,860 --> 02:10:34,780 Speaker 1: chance now to maybe do a Spider-Man book, which is 2405 02:10:34,860 --> 02:10:38,520 Speaker 1: really a big deal in a young creator's career. Working 2406 02:10:38,580 --> 02:10:40,390 Speaker 1: at Marvel and DC, you get to do a character 2407 02:10:40,400 --> 02:10:44,290 Speaker 1: that your mom and dad have heard of. That's big. 2408 02:10:44,510 --> 02:10:47,350 Speaker 1: But he's wearing that black costume. And I just go, 2409 02:10:48,030 --> 02:10:53,710 Speaker 1: and here's the rebellion part. I think 99.9% of young 2410 02:10:54,170 --> 02:10:57,150 Speaker 1: kids who were trying to work for Marvel and want 2411 02:10:57,170 --> 02:10:59,860 Speaker 1: to do it would have just gone, when they said 2412 02:10:59,900 --> 02:11:01,720 Speaker 1: to me, we're going to give you the amazing Spider-Man, 2413 02:11:01,840 --> 02:11:05,200 Speaker 1: would have said, oh my gosh, thank you. I'm phoning 2414 02:11:06,600 --> 02:11:12,730 Speaker 1: out the door. Not Todd. On one condition, I said. 2415 02:11:12,750 --> 02:11:16,490 Speaker 1: On one condition. They just gave you the goose that 2416 02:11:16,510 --> 02:11:19,110 Speaker 1: lays eggs. On one condition. Got to get rid of 2417 02:11:19,130 --> 02:11:22,310 Speaker 1: that black costume. I can't draw it. What are you 2418 02:11:22,330 --> 02:11:27,650 Speaker 1: talking about? I can't. This is me being a 10-year-old kid. Spider-Man, 2419 02:11:27,690 --> 02:11:29,910 Speaker 1: that's not Spider-Man. This isn't Spider-Man to me. I'm a 2420 02:11:29,930 --> 02:11:30,410 Speaker 1: 10-year-old kid. 2421 02:11:30,650 --> 02:11:33,180 Speaker 2: Not that you can't physically draw it, but in your mind, 2422 02:11:33,260 --> 02:11:35,460 Speaker 2: who Spider-Man is shouldn't be wearing the black suit. 2423 02:11:35,640 --> 02:11:35,710 Speaker 1: No. 2424 02:11:35,740 --> 02:11:36,740 Speaker 2: Just for people not tracking. 2425 02:11:36,760 --> 02:11:38,540 Speaker 1: I work hard. I work hard to get to Spider-Man. 2426 02:11:38,580 --> 02:11:41,700 Speaker 1: It's like drawing Batman with polka dots. I'm going, come on, man. 2427 02:11:41,740 --> 02:11:44,540 Speaker 1: I got to draw Spider-Man. And so it's like, let's 2428 02:11:44,560 --> 02:11:46,740 Speaker 1: just get him in the red and blue again, right? 2429 02:11:46,760 --> 02:11:49,120 Speaker 1: With the webbing and stuff. And they're like, Uh, no, 2430 02:11:49,240 --> 02:11:51,320 Speaker 1: the editor in chief, Jim Shooter at that point, editor 2431 02:11:51,360 --> 02:11:53,540 Speaker 1: in chief and some of the other people, they, they like, 2432 02:11:54,060 --> 02:11:57,840 Speaker 1: they like the costume and, and he came, the costume 2433 02:11:57,880 --> 02:12:01,300 Speaker 1: pre-existed in Star Wars, right? Or not Star Wars, Secret Wars, 2434 02:12:01,320 --> 02:12:05,930 Speaker 1: excuse me, Star Wars, Sir George, uh, Secret Wars, uh, 2435 02:12:05,990 --> 02:12:09,990 Speaker 1: which was a comic book at Marvel. And so, so I, again, 2436 02:12:10,050 --> 02:12:13,060 Speaker 1: I was just, I had an easy solution to it, Sean. Well, 2437 02:12:13,080 --> 02:12:14,820 Speaker 1: why don't we just take the costume of Peter Parker 2438 02:12:14,980 --> 02:12:18,100 Speaker 1: and put it on somebody else? I'll invent another character. 2439 02:12:18,280 --> 02:12:20,100 Speaker 1: I'll just like, here, this is easy. And then we 2440 02:12:20,140 --> 02:12:22,750 Speaker 1: can still have the costume, the black costume. And then 2441 02:12:22,930 --> 02:12:24,570 Speaker 1: we can have Peter Parker, and I can draw him 2442 02:12:24,590 --> 02:12:27,250 Speaker 1: the way I want to draw. Done. And they thought 2443 02:12:27,290 --> 02:12:29,150 Speaker 1: about it, and they went, okay, let's see the drawing. 2444 02:12:29,690 --> 02:12:32,950 Speaker 1: And so I went, okay, Secret Wars, that's taking place 2445 02:12:32,970 --> 02:12:35,950 Speaker 1: on another planet. Aliens, okay. And so I drew that 2446 02:12:36,010 --> 02:12:40,930 Speaker 1: drawing of Venom. big alien looking thing and i handed 2447 02:12:40,990 --> 02:12:44,030 Speaker 1: it and they signed off everybody was happy costume stage 2448 02:12:44,070 --> 02:12:47,730 Speaker 1: we get another villain peter parker comes everybody goes whatever 2449 02:12:47,870 --> 02:12:50,890 Speaker 1: else blah blah blah blah blah we had no idea 2450 02:12:51,310 --> 02:12:55,200 Speaker 1: what we were about to unleash with that character it's 2451 02:12:55,500 --> 02:12:58,440 Speaker 1: still being unleashed but but i sit there and go 2452 02:12:59,310 --> 02:13:08,490 Speaker 1: A normal employee, young, trying to go there would have said, yes, ma'am. Yes, sir. 2453 02:13:09,050 --> 02:13:11,290 Speaker 1: Thank you for putting me on your flagship book. And 2454 02:13:11,370 --> 02:13:16,550 Speaker 1: walked out. This is the piece that my mom would go, 2455 02:13:16,710 --> 02:13:20,570 Speaker 1: of course he did. Of course he put a condition 2456 02:13:21,090 --> 02:13:24,780 Speaker 1: on it. That's my boy. So sometimes it gets me 2457 02:13:24,800 --> 02:13:26,460 Speaker 1: in massive trouble, which is why I was on a 2458 02:13:26,500 --> 02:13:29,920 Speaker 1: first name basis with the principal. And other times you 2459 02:13:29,980 --> 02:13:35,540 Speaker 1: get these accidents of pushing against stuff and doing it. 2460 02:13:36,310 --> 02:13:38,630 Speaker 1: And it works. And I wish I could replicate it. 2461 02:13:38,640 --> 02:13:41,160 Speaker 1: I wish I knew what that formula was. I'd be 2462 02:13:41,200 --> 02:13:46,320 Speaker 1: doing it all the time. I don't. So, so the 2463 02:13:46,380 --> 02:13:49,600 Speaker 1: two things that I know with a hundred percent certainty. Okay. 2464 02:13:49,650 --> 02:13:50,480 Speaker 2: All right, let's go. 2465 02:13:51,450 --> 02:13:57,870 Speaker 1: Death. We're all going to die and change. It's been 2466 02:13:57,910 --> 02:14:01,570 Speaker 1: coming since the dawn of man. Otherwise we'd be in 2467 02:14:01,650 --> 02:14:05,640 Speaker 1: caves and we dress different and we transport ourselves different. It's, 2468 02:14:06,070 --> 02:14:10,570 Speaker 1: Change is always here. And the thing that I've said 2469 02:14:10,610 --> 02:14:14,490 Speaker 1: before that I think is the greatest enemy for young 2470 02:14:14,530 --> 02:14:23,490 Speaker 1: people is the wall, the guardianship of status quo. And 2471 02:14:23,530 --> 02:14:27,940 Speaker 1: status quo to me, Sean, is yesterday. And I am 2472 02:14:28,180 --> 02:14:32,580 Speaker 1: so disinterested in yesterday because I always think, even at 2473 02:14:32,620 --> 02:14:34,960 Speaker 1: this ripe old age, that my best day is in 2474 02:14:35,320 --> 02:14:38,090 Speaker 1: front of me. It's either today or tomorrow. And I 2475 02:14:38,170 --> 02:14:41,410 Speaker 1: hope I get another 40 years. And I probably will 2476 02:14:41,470 --> 02:14:44,350 Speaker 1: never achieve that holy grail I have in my head. 2477 02:14:45,680 --> 02:14:50,520 Speaker 1: But that's the thing that keeps going. And the yesterday part, right, 2478 02:14:50,820 --> 02:14:53,320 Speaker 1: is like, you can learn. You can learn a little 2479 02:14:53,340 --> 02:14:55,120 Speaker 1: bit because you find where the potholes are. That's why 2480 02:14:55,160 --> 02:15:00,350 Speaker 1: as parents you block them. But yesterday is like changing, like, 2481 02:15:01,240 --> 02:15:03,940 Speaker 1: So I did a Spider-Man that worked and I, the 2482 02:15:04,020 --> 02:15:06,190 Speaker 1: only thing that bugs me is that my look of 2483 02:15:06,230 --> 02:15:09,590 Speaker 1: Spider-Man has now become the status quo somewhat over there. 2484 02:15:09,790 --> 02:15:12,890 Speaker 1: It has. And why, and they were railing against it 2485 02:15:12,930 --> 02:15:16,420 Speaker 1: the whole time. Why wouldn't you allow young people like your, your, 2486 02:15:16,500 --> 02:15:21,400 Speaker 1: your son to come in and go, she'll, Show Todd 2487 02:15:21,420 --> 02:15:23,080 Speaker 1: and all these other Spider-Man artists they didn't know what 2488 02:15:23,100 --> 02:15:26,340 Speaker 1: they were doing. Go. Why wouldn't you encourage that? Because 2489 02:15:26,380 --> 02:15:29,710 Speaker 1: they might come up with something ten times cooler. But instead, 2490 02:15:29,770 --> 02:15:33,570 Speaker 1: we find out ways to narrow. Look, we've got a disease, 2491 02:15:33,610 --> 02:15:37,830 Speaker 1: and I'm rambling, but we've got a disease called cancer. 2492 02:15:38,090 --> 02:15:39,670 Speaker 1: And you know how we try to solve it? You 2493 02:15:39,690 --> 02:15:43,360 Speaker 1: know how we try to solve cancer? Even arguably today. 2494 02:15:44,160 --> 02:15:46,440 Speaker 1: But in the back. We've got this bad thing. It's 2495 02:15:46,480 --> 02:15:48,420 Speaker 1: called cancer. It's going to kill lots of us. We 2496 02:15:48,660 --> 02:15:51,080 Speaker 1: have a survival instinct. We'd like to We'd like to 2497 02:15:51,140 --> 02:15:53,180 Speaker 1: get it fixed. So we've got to come up with 2498 02:15:53,220 --> 02:15:57,360 Speaker 1: a solution for it. But before we do that, because 2499 02:15:57,400 --> 02:15:59,040 Speaker 1: we've got to come up with as many answers as 2500 02:15:59,080 --> 02:16:01,160 Speaker 1: we can to try and see if we can eradicate 2501 02:16:01,200 --> 02:16:04,000 Speaker 1: this thing, I'm going to need all the females in 2502 02:16:04,020 --> 02:16:07,740 Speaker 1: the room to leave. Because females, they can't be doctors, 2503 02:16:07,780 --> 02:16:11,850 Speaker 1: can they? And sometimes, depending where you're standing, the people 2504 02:16:12,010 --> 02:16:14,490 Speaker 1: in brown and black skin, we need you to leave 2505 02:16:14,570 --> 02:16:18,650 Speaker 1: the room too. And now we're going to solve the problem. 2506 02:16:19,010 --> 02:16:23,180 Speaker 1: Because this... is who can be in the medical profession 2507 02:16:23,380 --> 02:16:27,180 Speaker 1: at certain times in the history of mankind. And this 2508 02:16:27,260 --> 02:16:30,480 Speaker 1: is the flaw of us, that we're trying to solve 2509 02:16:30,600 --> 02:16:33,760 Speaker 1: a problem that will be helpful to the entire world, 2510 02:16:34,160 --> 02:16:39,590 Speaker 1: and our first step is to narrow the possibilities instead 2511 02:16:39,650 --> 02:16:44,810 Speaker 1: of expanding the possibilities. This is, to me, this is 2512 02:16:44,870 --> 02:16:46,690 Speaker 1: the color of the rainbow. I like to expand possibilities. 2513 02:16:47,090 --> 02:16:50,670 Speaker 1: I like variety. I like all the letters in the alphabet. 2514 02:16:51,190 --> 02:16:54,590 Speaker 1: I think it's good. It's chicken noodle for my soul. 2515 02:16:54,730 --> 02:16:57,789 Speaker 1: So I'm a curious being, and I like to see 2516 02:16:57,850 --> 02:17:00,830 Speaker 1: people find personal inner happiness any way they see fit. 2517 02:17:01,640 --> 02:17:05,020 Speaker 2: Well, you've certainly given some to myself and my two 2518 02:17:05,080 --> 02:17:09,240 Speaker 2: boys and plenty others. We have dozens of comics and 2519 02:17:09,260 --> 02:17:11,320 Speaker 2: a bunch I bought in the early 90s when that 2520 02:17:11,340 --> 02:17:12,720 Speaker 2: came out. 92, right? 2521 02:17:12,740 --> 02:17:17,820 Speaker 1: Spongebob came out in 1992. Spongebob, yeah, 1992. Just after Youngblood. 2522 02:17:18,040 --> 02:17:19,340 Speaker 2: That's right. 2523 02:17:19,379 --> 02:17:19,940 Speaker 1: Rob came out. 2524 02:17:20,640 --> 02:17:22,150 Speaker 2: Bought that one off the stand, too. 2525 02:17:22,230 --> 02:17:24,810 Speaker 1: Can I give a little props to Rob Liefeld? Please, yeah. 2526 02:17:25,390 --> 02:17:28,650 Speaker 1: Because Rob Liefeld, as you know, he's on the other 2527 02:17:28,690 --> 02:17:31,650 Speaker 1: end of me. But we are dear friends, right? Rob Liefeld. 2528 02:17:31,670 --> 02:17:33,050 Speaker 2: He talks very highly about you. 2529 02:17:34,090 --> 02:17:39,700 Speaker 1: Good, energetic man. And that I always say like the 2530 02:17:39,780 --> 02:17:43,240 Speaker 1: moment that Image Comics, which is where Spawn comes from, 2531 02:17:43,260 --> 02:17:45,810 Speaker 1: we're the third biggest, right? Marvel, DC, everybody knows that. 2532 02:17:45,940 --> 02:17:48,570 Speaker 1: Image is number three. If you ask, well, what's after that? 2533 02:17:48,750 --> 02:17:51,550 Speaker 1: It's always been us for 30 years. Jim Lee, who 2534 02:17:51,580 --> 02:17:54,859 Speaker 1: was the choir boy, we got picked off. We needed him. 2535 02:17:55,360 --> 02:17:58,920 Speaker 1: But I got to tell you, if there was no 2536 02:17:59,260 --> 02:18:06,860 Speaker 1: Rob Liefeld, there would be no Image. He was rocket 2537 02:18:06,920 --> 02:18:14,260 Speaker 1: fuel for this for this endeavor. He was young. Look it, 2538 02:18:14,340 --> 02:18:16,900 Speaker 1: I met Rob when he was in his teens, Sean. 2539 02:18:17,500 --> 02:18:20,540 Speaker 1: He was a kid. We were all kids. And so 2540 02:18:20,560 --> 02:18:22,820 Speaker 1: you can imagine how crazy, if you think we're crazy 2541 02:18:22,860 --> 02:18:25,760 Speaker 1: now as old men, you should have seen us like 2542 02:18:25,940 --> 02:18:30,190 Speaker 1: it was. It was nuclear what we were because we 2543 02:18:30,230 --> 02:18:35,510 Speaker 1: were completely fearless, especially Rob and I. But Rob, I 2544 02:18:36,030 --> 02:18:38,030 Speaker 1: couldn't have done it alone. I couldn't have. If it 2545 02:18:38,090 --> 02:18:40,090 Speaker 1: was just me and the group, it would never work. 2546 02:18:40,970 --> 02:18:43,230 Speaker 1: Maybe even if it was Rob, whatever, but we needed 2547 02:18:43,470 --> 02:18:46,930 Speaker 1: each other. Everybody played a part. And Rob Liefeld, and 2548 02:18:46,980 --> 02:18:48,420 Speaker 1: I don't know where it comes from, and it came 2549 02:18:48,480 --> 02:18:51,340 Speaker 1: from his spirituality or not. I don't know where it 2550 02:18:51,400 --> 02:18:54,620 Speaker 1: came from, where that DNA came from. But I am 2551 02:18:54,720 --> 02:18:58,130 Speaker 1: thankful that it was there. Because we needed it. We 2552 02:18:58,170 --> 02:19:02,310 Speaker 1: all needed that. And that's one of those colors that 2553 02:19:02,390 --> 02:19:05,220 Speaker 1: is like, I'm good. I don't care how you bring it. 2554 02:19:05,690 --> 02:19:08,870 Speaker 1: Just bring it. Be good people. And we're going to 2555 02:19:08,910 --> 02:19:09,330 Speaker 1: get along. 2556 02:19:09,570 --> 02:19:09,789 Speaker 2: Right? 2557 02:19:09,850 --> 02:19:11,039 Speaker 1: Done. Love it. 2558 02:19:11,370 --> 02:19:13,610 Speaker 2: Those of you watching, Rob Liefeld was on here talking 2559 02:19:13,629 --> 02:19:15,350 Speaker 2: about his faith. You mean by the other end of 2560 02:19:15,390 --> 02:19:18,730 Speaker 2: the perspective. He's gone to church for 20-some years. Believes 2561 02:19:18,790 --> 02:19:19,170 Speaker 2: in God. 2562 02:19:19,190 --> 02:19:20,250 Speaker 1: His dad was a pastor. 2563 02:19:20,270 --> 02:19:24,090 Speaker 2: His dad was a pastor. And that story was interesting. 2564 02:19:24,530 --> 02:19:26,260 Speaker 2: Maybe in the future we can sit down with you 2565 02:19:26,520 --> 02:19:27,199 Speaker 2: and Rob. 2566 02:19:27,879 --> 02:19:29,340 Speaker 1: That would be entertainment. 2567 02:19:29,400 --> 02:19:33,320 Speaker 2: You'd be– entertaining would be– that's like the understatement. 2568 02:19:32,740 --> 02:19:35,200 Speaker 1: Of the year. You would have to say, so tell 2569 02:19:35,240 --> 02:19:37,520 Speaker 1: me a little about yourselves, and then we would. 2570 02:19:37,400 --> 02:19:39,210 Speaker 2: Just blow those you. 2571 02:19:39,450 --> 02:19:40,830 Speaker 1: Oh, man. You wouldn't even know what it is. 2572 02:19:40,830 --> 02:19:42,230 Speaker 2: Hey, don't mess up my Spawn comic just for the record. 2573 02:19:42,250 --> 02:19:42,510 Speaker 2: That's it. 2574 02:19:42,530 --> 02:19:42,910 Speaker 1: There you go. 2575 02:19:42,930 --> 02:19:44,610 Speaker 2: By the way, if there's anybody on the planet that 2576 02:19:44,629 --> 02:19:46,470 Speaker 2: could mess up my Spawn comic, and I'd be like, 2577 02:19:46,570 --> 02:19:47,849 Speaker 2: I'm good. That's you, Todd. 2578 02:19:47,930 --> 02:19:48,310 Speaker 1: That's it. 2579 02:19:48,450 --> 02:19:51,300 Speaker 2: Hey, man, I have so many more thoughts. Like when 2580 02:19:51,330 --> 02:19:53,420 Speaker 2: we started to jump into some of the evidence, I 2581 02:19:53,459 --> 02:19:57,020 Speaker 2: totally agree with you. It's not about certainty. I look 2582 02:19:57,070 --> 02:20:00,590 Speaker 2: at things like near-death experiences, and I go, okay, what 2583 02:20:00,610 --> 02:20:02,490 Speaker 2: does this suggest about what it means to be human? 2584 02:20:02,510 --> 02:20:04,330 Speaker 2: Maybe there's a soul. Maybe there's not just a body. 2585 02:20:04,370 --> 02:20:06,770 Speaker 2: Maybe there's an afterlife. I look at things like the 2586 02:20:06,830 --> 02:20:09,400 Speaker 2: moral law, and it suggests to me a moral law giver. 2587 02:20:10,180 --> 02:20:12,000 Speaker 2: You mentioned the Big Bang, and me, I go, yeah, 2588 02:20:12,020 --> 02:20:15,320 Speaker 2: if the universe banged into existence, that suggests a cause 2589 02:20:15,520 --> 02:20:19,280 Speaker 2: outside of the universe that brought it into existence. Now, 2590 02:20:19,300 --> 02:20:21,000 Speaker 2: you and I would differ on some of those things, 2591 02:20:21,709 --> 02:20:22,970 Speaker 2: but I would just say to me it's not a 2592 02:20:23,050 --> 02:20:28,040 Speaker 2: question of certainty. Are there certain signposts that point beyond 2593 02:20:28,120 --> 02:20:31,770 Speaker 2: this world to something supernatural? We differ there, but maybe 2594 02:20:31,850 --> 02:20:33,530 Speaker 2: at some point we'll... But. 2595 02:20:33,390 --> 02:20:35,209 Speaker 1: Here's what I admire. Here's what I'm going to say 2596 02:20:35,230 --> 02:20:39,580 Speaker 1: that I admire about you and probably millions like you. 2597 02:20:40,140 --> 02:20:45,519 Speaker 1: I admire your loyalty. I'm a big advocate of loyalty. 2598 02:20:46,240 --> 02:20:51,440 Speaker 1: And so I admire the loyalty. of people defending what 2599 02:20:51,560 --> 02:20:59,020 Speaker 1: they believe is right for them. I think that's admirable. 2600 02:20:59,950 --> 02:21:05,890 Speaker 1: And so the slight gap, and I think there's a 2601 02:21:05,930 --> 02:21:12,040 Speaker 1: slight gap here, is that, I get it, somebody, I'll 2602 02:21:12,100 --> 02:21:14,080 Speaker 1: use a bad analogy, I'm a sports guy, somebody thinks 2603 02:21:14,100 --> 02:21:17,050 Speaker 1: the Chicago Cubs are the best baseball team ever, ever, ever, 2604 02:21:17,070 --> 02:21:21,029 Speaker 1: and they go, and I just admire that every year 2605 02:21:21,950 --> 02:21:25,050 Speaker 1: that they never waver from that, and they go. Got 2606 02:21:25,070 --> 02:21:28,609 Speaker 1: a commitment to it. It doesn't mean that it's true. 2607 02:21:28,629 --> 02:21:31,650 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that they even have any evidence to it. 2608 02:21:31,890 --> 02:21:35,289 Speaker 1: It just means that in their core, they believe it, 2609 02:21:35,800 --> 02:21:39,949 Speaker 1: and it's good for them, I'm with the– I'm always with– 2610 02:21:39,990 --> 02:21:43,250 Speaker 1: I'm with the people who just go, no, let's go. 2611 02:21:43,370 --> 02:21:46,449 Speaker 1: We're there. We're there. The piece that that guy would 2612 02:21:46,500 --> 02:21:48,800 Speaker 1: cross over is if he just was to tell me 2613 02:21:49,260 --> 02:21:52,420 Speaker 1: that under no circumstances that the Cubs are 100% the 2614 02:21:52,459 --> 02:21:54,280 Speaker 1: best team and that there's– I'm not going to have 2615 02:21:54,300 --> 02:21:57,430 Speaker 1: an argument on any intellectual way of any of the other– 2616 02:21:57,560 --> 02:22:00,390 Speaker 1: then I'm like, oh, man, I was– I was actually 2617 02:22:00,410 --> 02:22:03,310 Speaker 1: admiring you up to that point, right? Like, just be 2618 02:22:03,350 --> 02:22:06,630 Speaker 1: a Cubs fan to the death. That's cool. My brother was. 2619 02:22:06,830 --> 02:22:09,289 Speaker 2: My brother was. Just, you know, we're wrapping up here, 2620 02:22:09,350 --> 02:22:12,110 Speaker 2: but not much is at stake with what we believe 2621 02:22:12,290 --> 02:22:16,190 Speaker 2: about our favorite sports team, but believe in about heaven 2622 02:22:16,230 --> 02:22:18,790 Speaker 2: and hell and eternity. And those things have a lot 2623 02:22:18,830 --> 02:22:23,870 Speaker 2: more weight, obviously, than a baseball team would be. With 2624 02:22:23,910 --> 02:22:24,390 Speaker 2: that said. 2625 02:22:24,410 --> 02:22:25,670 Speaker 1: From your perspective, right? 2626 02:22:25,910 --> 02:22:26,490 Speaker 2: Well, yeah. 2627 02:22:26,930 --> 02:22:27,209 Speaker 1: Fair enough. 2628 02:22:27,730 --> 02:22:30,870 Speaker 2: We will leave it at that. Todd, if someone had 2629 02:22:30,890 --> 02:22:33,490 Speaker 2: told me in eighth grade when I was collecting Spider-Man 2630 02:22:33,530 --> 02:22:36,220 Speaker 2: comics and you captured me with the way that you 2631 02:22:36,250 --> 02:22:38,660 Speaker 2: drew him, we'd be sitting down here. And I think 2632 02:22:38,700 --> 02:22:40,660 Speaker 2: if I'm not mistaken, my teams here, that we had 2633 02:22:40,700 --> 02:22:43,459 Speaker 2: the longest conversation you gave me that time, I don't 2634 02:22:43,480 --> 02:22:46,900 Speaker 2: think I would have believed it. So I've thoroughly enjoyed this. 2635 02:22:46,920 --> 02:22:50,540 Speaker 2: You haven't remotely offended anybody. My, my people who follow 2636 02:22:50,560 --> 02:22:53,680 Speaker 2: my channel are like going super interesting, go two more 2637 02:22:53,740 --> 02:22:57,180 Speaker 2: hours and talk about miracles and Jesus and Bible, all 2638 02:22:57,220 --> 02:22:58,800 Speaker 2: that stuff. I'm like, we are good. 2639 02:22:58,820 --> 02:22:59,660 Speaker 1: Oh man. 2640 02:22:59,720 --> 02:23:04,260 Speaker 2: So you have been incredibly generous. Last really quickly. What, 2641 02:23:04,320 --> 02:23:06,699 Speaker 2: just tell us something you're working on that you're excited about. 2642 02:23:08,709 --> 02:23:13,910 Speaker 1: Um, every, I get excited about everything, but it's weird 2643 02:23:13,950 --> 02:23:15,110 Speaker 1: to people. What are you doing, Todd? And it's like, 2644 02:23:15,700 --> 02:23:17,920 Speaker 1: comic books and toys and a little bit of Hollywood stuff. Like, 2645 02:23:18,240 --> 02:23:20,199 Speaker 1: like at some point as you get older, you, you're, 2646 02:23:20,420 --> 02:23:22,890 Speaker 1: you start walking the same rut a little bit. So 2647 02:23:23,190 --> 02:23:26,450 Speaker 1: I actually get way more enthusiasm watching the youth. Cause 2648 02:23:26,470 --> 02:23:28,610 Speaker 1: it's like, what, what surprises, what surprises are they going 2649 02:23:28,629 --> 02:23:32,180 Speaker 1: to sort of put upon us? Right. Um, But, yeah, 2650 02:23:32,240 --> 02:23:36,520 Speaker 1: I mean, we're marching towards issue 400 of Spawn. The toys, 2651 02:23:36,560 --> 02:23:39,619 Speaker 1: we've just signed a couple big licenses we're going to do, 2652 02:23:39,700 --> 02:23:43,750 Speaker 1: and we just made an offer to a director for 2653 02:23:43,910 --> 02:23:47,630 Speaker 1: a new Spawn movie. Okay. But, again, we've been talking 2654 02:23:47,650 --> 02:23:49,430 Speaker 1: about that for way too long, so I don't want 2655 02:23:49,450 --> 02:23:51,110 Speaker 1: to say anything about that publicly. 2656 02:23:51,129 --> 02:23:51,609 Speaker 2: Don't jinx it. 2657 02:23:52,400 --> 02:23:55,670 Speaker 1: So we've actually got the deal done and we're sort of, 2658 02:23:55,680 --> 02:23:57,600 Speaker 1: we've got a production date. And then I, then we can, 2659 02:23:57,650 --> 02:24:01,150 Speaker 1: then I can talk about something that has evidence that 2660 02:24:01,170 --> 02:24:02,370 Speaker 1: are going, no, no, we're going to make a movie. 2661 02:24:03,170 --> 02:24:05,070 Speaker 1: I want to be able to say the contracts have 2662 02:24:05,090 --> 02:24:08,010 Speaker 1: been signed. We're making something. And now I can like 2663 02:24:08,490 --> 02:24:10,530 Speaker 1: give them something they can get excited about. And then 2664 02:24:10,590 --> 02:24:13,070 Speaker 1: that's just going to blow up all the people that 2665 02:24:13,090 --> 02:24:14,750 Speaker 1: have been, what I call in the bubble, which is 2666 02:24:14,770 --> 02:24:17,250 Speaker 1: a comic book industry. They've been collecting all those comic books. 2667 02:24:17,629 --> 02:24:20,160 Speaker 1: Once you get outside the bubble, Then all of a sudden, 2668 02:24:20,260 --> 02:24:22,560 Speaker 1: it's like, where's that come from? Oh, from the comic book. 2669 02:24:22,660 --> 02:24:24,440 Speaker 1: All the sales, like all the books. 2670 02:24:24,500 --> 02:24:25,600 Speaker 2: It all ties. 2671 02:24:25,640 --> 02:24:28,240 Speaker 1: Your $ 5 book's going to go to $ 25. Your $ 25 2672 02:24:28,200 --> 02:24:31,260 Speaker 1: book's going to go to $ 100, right? If the Spawn 2673 02:24:31,280 --> 02:24:35,070 Speaker 1: movie works and is successful, everybody go, I've got a 2674 02:24:35,110 --> 02:24:39,850 Speaker 1: box of Spawns. So I'm trying to get it out 2675 02:24:39,890 --> 02:24:42,390 Speaker 1: of the bubble in a big, meaningful way, like Walking Dead. 2676 02:24:42,890 --> 02:24:45,379 Speaker 1: Not to that degree, but he got out of the bubble. 2677 02:24:45,690 --> 02:24:47,590 Speaker 2: Well, when it comes out, if you want to talk 2678 02:24:47,610 --> 02:24:49,250 Speaker 2: about it more and spread the word, I'd love to 2679 02:24:49,290 --> 02:24:51,029 Speaker 2: probe more into Spawn. 2680 02:24:51,430 --> 02:24:51,630 Speaker 1: All right. 2681 02:24:51,830 --> 02:24:53,930 Speaker 2: Todd, super generous with your time. Sure, appreciate it. We've 2682 02:24:53,950 --> 02:24:57,959 Speaker 2: got some personal books. I have zero interest in selling them. 2683 02:24:58,040 --> 02:25:00,920 Speaker 2: But for my own collection, giving a couple away, if 2684 02:25:00,959 --> 02:25:03,180 Speaker 2: you'd humor us and sign as many as you have 2685 02:25:03,240 --> 02:25:05,160 Speaker 2: time for, it would be pretty fun. 2686 02:25:05,220 --> 02:25:07,600 Speaker 1: We'll do it. I appreciate the time today, Sean. Thanks, Todd. 2687 02:25:07,720 --> 02:25:08,160 Speaker 1: All right, be good. 2688 02:25:09,480 --> 02:25:12,140 Speaker 2: Hey friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that 2689 02:25:12,220 --> 02:25:15,150 Speaker 2: follow button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning 2690 02:25:15,230 --> 02:25:17,529 Speaker 2: in haven't done this yet, and it makes a huge 2691 02:25:17,590 --> 02:25:20,379 Speaker 2: difference in helping us reach and equip more people and 2692 02:25:20,420 --> 02:25:24,769 Speaker 2: build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every 2693 02:25:24,970 --> 02:25:28,050 Speaker 2: review helps. Thanks for listening to The Sean McDowell Show, 2694 02:25:28,209 --> 02:25:32,010 Speaker 2: brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, 2695 02:25:32,110 --> 02:25:36,410 Speaker 2: where we have on-campus and online programs in apologetics, spiritual formation, 2696 02:25:36,470 --> 02:25:39,050 Speaker 2: marriage and family, Bible, and so much more. We would 2697 02:25:39,070 --> 02:25:42,010 Speaker 2: love to train you to more effectively live, teach, and 2698 02:25:42,070 --> 02:25:44,849 Speaker 2: defend the Christian faith today. And we will see you 2699 02:25:44,990 --> 02:25:46,480 Speaker 2: when the next episode drops.