1 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Inside the Epicenter weekend edition with New York 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: Times bestselling author in Midias to expert Joel Rosenberg. This 3 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: is a radio program of the Joshua Fund, a ministry 4 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: founded by Joel and his wife Lynn that's dedicated to 5 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: blessing Israel and her neighbors in the name of Jesus. 6 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: This is a program where we don't just talk about 7 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: faith in current events. We dive right into the spiritual 8 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: pulse of the Middle East and the God who was 9 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: moving so powerfully in it. Every week we unpack the 10 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: headlines of the prophecies and the hope of Christ that's 11 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: rising in a region so often misunderstood because what happens 12 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: in the Epicenter doesn't stay there. It's aftershocks ripple across 13 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: the world. Today, we are featuring a powerful and biblically 14 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: rich conversation about the future of Israel in God's plan. 15 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: In this special edition, Joel Rosenberg sits down with theologian 16 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: Tommy Fretwell to discuss one of the most important questions 17 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: in Christian theology. Has the Church replaced Israel or does 18 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: the Bible still teach that God has a future for 19 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: the Jewish people? Together, they unpack super sessionism, Romans eleven, 20 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: the New Covenant, and why this issue matters not only 21 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: for theology, but for the health of the Church and 22 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: the witness of the Gospel. Let's join Joel Rosenberg and 23 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: Tommy Fretwell. 24 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 2: Tommy, you are a British native born and raised there, 25 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 2: and I want you to take a moment and just 26 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 2: as we begin, sort of set the credentials, you recently 27 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 2: finished your PhD. You earned your PhD, talk about for 28 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 2: a moment what you studied and what your thesis was 29 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 2: and why that's relevant to this conversation. 30 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 3: Sure. Absolutely so it's been a big part of my 31 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 3: life for the last six to seven years really doing this, 32 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 3: doing my doctoral studies. That the thesis was Christian Zionism 33 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 3: and Supersessionism in the twenty first century, a historical, theological 34 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,639 Speaker 3: and political analysis. So we took a deep dive into 35 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 3: both of these opposing views, both the Christian Zionist or 36 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 3: the restorationist position, those who were firm a future role 37 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 3: for Israel in God's plan and also it's the opposite 38 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,799 Speaker 3: position of supersessionism, as you said in the introduction there 39 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 3: and we really just dug beneath the surface. We wanted 40 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 3: to I really wanted to get all three of these history, 41 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 3: theology and politics, get them on the table, analyze them 42 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 3: critically both views, and of course this has taken a 43 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 3: long time, and the idea behind this was I wanted 44 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 3: to obviously favor one view and critique the other, but 45 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 3: to provide a fair analysis, providing three different points of 46 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:41,959 Speaker 3: contact on each view. And that's what I've been doing 47 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 3: for the last seven years, and I recently just finished that. 48 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 2: So I want to talk about now how recently we 49 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 2: all got to go to Israel. You were with us 50 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,519 Speaker 2: in your role with a special Project Department of the 51 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 2: Joshua Fund, which is really a term to talk about 52 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 2: the strengthening, the equipping, the refreshing, the growth of the 53 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 2: local body of believers in Israel and why that's important, 54 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 2: how do we encourage them. So that's a key part 55 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 2: of what you do. As we brought this Joshua Fund 56 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 2: Faith Wins group that Lena and I have been mentioning 57 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 2: on the recent podcast, we asked you to share and 58 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 2: try to distill seven years of research, which I hope 59 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,679 Speaker 2: wasn't a tribulation for you, but at least you're done now, 60 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 2: and try to share with these pastors that aren't hospital Israel. 61 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 2: They're there in Israel, but we didn't know them all 62 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 2: individual We couldn't say we knew what their theology was. 63 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 2: They thought, well, maybe they're just curious about Israel. They're coming. 64 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 2: But would you take them through a study admittedly not 65 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 2: you know, a class, but just a study of beginnings 66 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 2: of the context of what is replacement theology, what is 67 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 2: super sessionism and why is it wrong? Would you talk 68 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 2: a little bit about your time with us and then 69 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 2: kind of walk us through some of the key points. 70 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 2: We'll probably need to take a break about halfway through, 71 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 2: but you made you know, you sat on laid out 72 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 2: five key critical points and themes. Why don't we just 73 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 2: start walking through them. Yeah, let's just start and kind 74 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 2: of take it through the narrative. 75 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 3: Firstly, what I usually do, and I'm sure we'll get 76 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 3: into some of this now, is I explained what I 77 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 3: mean by super sessionism. So we go through the definitions, 78 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 3: the different types of supersessionism, and some examples of the 79 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 3: historical consequences. Because this is one of the reasons why 80 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 3: I believe this is such a crucial study for the 81 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 3: Church to engage in these days because of the rise 82 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 3: of antisemitism. The first one I point out, you find 83 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 3: this quite early in church history. This was one of 84 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 3: the first types of supersessionism. They call it punitive supersessionism, 85 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 3: and this is all hard supersessionism. And this was the 86 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 3: view that often was associated with anti Semitism and physical violence, 87 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 3: because what it taught was that the Jews, through their wickedness, 88 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 3: had been rejected or cast off forever by the Lord, 89 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 3: and thus they've been replaced with the Church. And often 90 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 3: there's an old anti Semitic trope called the diaocide charge. 91 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 3: You know, you killed the Christ or you rejected them 92 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 3: as Siah. This is usually associated with this type of 93 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 3: punitive supersessionism. And the argument is then obviously put that 94 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 3: because the Jewish people rejected Christ, therefore they're being judged 95 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 3: and thus it's okay to treat them in rather horrible ways. 96 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 3: And you can easily see that within the mindset of 97 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 3: different people at different times, how this view would lead 98 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 3: to mistreatment of the Jewish people, which is tragic, but 99 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 3: unfortunately that's what we find in history. Now that was 100 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 3: the first view. Now it became you don't see much 101 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 3: of that particular view today because we've moved past that 102 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 3: in history. Unfortunately, some of the tragic events of history 103 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 3: have made people a little bit more careful. But these 104 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 3: other two views we do still see. So the second 105 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 3: form of replacement theology is economic supersessionism. Economic supersessionism this 106 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 3: is much more subtle. As always, not one hundred percent 107 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 3: of what these people say is wrong. That's what makes 108 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 3: them so difficult. There's always a little bit of truth 109 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 3: in some of their theology. But economic supersessionism speaks about 110 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:16,119 Speaker 3: where Israel is in God's economy of salvation. It's placed 111 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,359 Speaker 3: in the salvation history, and so they would say something 112 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 3: like Israel was just a shadow, it was just a type. 113 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 3: It was just something to point forward to God's eventual 114 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 3: formation of the spiritual Israel the Church, you see. So 115 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 3: it makes this kind of a platonic division between the 116 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 3: physical and the carnal being bad and then the spiritual 117 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 3: and the heavenly being good, and plays them off against 118 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 3: each other. Because of the Greek influence in hermeneutics in 119 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 3: the early Church, that was quite popular. But I still 120 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 3: find this view in quite popular today too. People hold 121 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 3: to that view because that's what they've been taught, and 122 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 3: they'll talk about things like well that, of course we're 123 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 3: not under the law of Moses, we're under the law 124 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 3: of Christ. And they make these true statements, but they 125 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 3: apply them incorrectly to a theology of Israel's. So that's 126 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 3: the second one, and it's quite we see that still today. 127 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 3: And then the final one of the historic versions is 128 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 3: called structural supersessionism. This is a very important one for 129 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 3: people to learn. And this is the one that I 130 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 3: explained to the pastors and had some follow up conversations 131 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 3: with them because they all I think they all understood 132 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 3: this one because the way I explained it was I said, 133 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 3: it's very common. People aren't meaning to do it. But 134 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 3: when we do evangelism, quite often we tell the story 135 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 3: of the Gospel, and we start with the creation, and 136 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 3: then we go to the fall of man, and then 137 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 3: from there we leap frog all the way to the cross, 138 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 3: and then we speak about the consummation heaven or eternal life. 139 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 3: And often as a model of evangelism, it's good because 140 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 3: it's quick, it gets you there and understand it. I'm 141 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 3: not saying you can't do that, but it's structural supersessionism 142 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 3: is a homeneutical approach. It's about how you understand and 143 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 3: interpret the Bible, and it's so ingrained. And that evangelistic 144 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 3: approach is just one example of that, because if you 145 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 3: really think about it, what are you actually doing when 146 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 3: you tell the story of God's plan or salvation redempt 147 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 3: of history and you go straight from the fall to 148 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 3: the cross, you miss out the entire narrative of the 149 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 3: people of Israel, the whole Old Testament almost And so 150 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 3: that should alert us to the fact, hang on, that 151 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 3: shouldn't we shouldn't maybe be able to do that something's wrong. 152 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 3: So what I do like to do is always make 153 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 3: sure that we have one more in there. And if 154 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 3: we go from the fall and then we add Covenant 155 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 3: into that, we can just integrate that story into the 156 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 3: rest and then go to the cross, because the covenants 157 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 3: lead to the cross ultimately, don't they? The Abrahamic Covenant, 158 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 3: the New Covenant, all these things are included. But just 159 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 3: having that word covenant into their means we cannot just 160 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 3: completely erase the history of Israel from the Bible. Because 161 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 3: I remember when I was a new believer and I 162 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,319 Speaker 3: was meeting people and i'd raise a question about Israel, 163 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 3: they'd look at people would look at me and be like, 164 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 3: what are you talking about Israel? For it was context 165 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 3: so foreign to their context of trilogy. Because of this 166 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 3: structural supersessionism that's ingrained in the church. 167 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 2: I know there's a lot here, right that. No wonder 168 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 2: it took you seven years almost there to study it 169 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 2: and then to refine it, you know, distill it and 170 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 2: lay it out. But how did you explain to these 171 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 2: pastors some of the ways that they can both understand 172 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 2: for themselves but also explain to their congregations why these 173 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 2: notions are wrong? 174 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, I want so much. There's love to unpack 175 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 3: some of that. Let me try and do it in 176 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 3: a short form like I did with on the tour 177 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 3: there because time was short. However, you raise some important 178 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 3: questions and as you said, punitive supersessionism may not be 179 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 3: around too much, but it is still there. All you 180 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 3: have to do is look in the comments section usually 181 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 3: after you post a teaching on Israel, and you'll see 182 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 3: that sort of attitude being expressed. So the way I 183 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 3: answered this in many questions because there is genuine confusion. 184 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 3: Not everyone who holds to these views anti Semitic. We're 185 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 3: not saying that at all. A lot of it is 186 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 3: just a misunderstanding, like I said, because of the hermeneutics, 187 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 3: the structure, or what they've been taught. So the way 188 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 3: I got into this with the past is it is 189 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 3: those five points of theology that I take to give 190 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 3: you a basic outline of a biblical theology of Israel 191 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 3: from Romans chapter eleven. I take these, and within these, 192 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 3: just from Romans eleven twenty five to twenty nine, these 193 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 3: four verses we touch on quite a lot of the 194 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 3: points that you just mentioned there. So I mean I 195 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 3: can briefly walk us through them if you would like 196 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 3: me to do that. 197 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 2: If we have time, sure, let's take a break and 198 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 2: when we come back we'll kind of unpack these pieces. 199 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 2: We're dealing with the question with doctor Tummy Fratwell, who 200 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 2: worked for the Joshua Fund and recently talked to a 201 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 2: group that we brought of even joggle pastors and their wives, 202 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 2: mystry leaders and their wives. Brought them to Israel, many 203 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 2: of them for their first time, and one of the 204 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 2: sessions we wanted to have was what is the theology 205 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 2: of Israel? But we decided to teach it in a 206 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 2: way of like people who say God's done with Israel, 207 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 2: that the current Israel has nothing to do with biblical Israel, 208 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 2: and or a number of different ways people think this 209 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 2: or explain it. God's done with the Jews. He's taken 210 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 2: all the promises that he once made to Israel, but 211 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 2: he's not keeping those promises to Israel because Israel blew it. 212 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 2: You know, there is no current plan, prophetic plan for 213 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 2: Israel and the Jewish people. They blew it at the 214 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 2: cross and for various different reasons, God is moving on 215 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 2: Israel and Jewish people. That's our discussion. That's what we 216 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 2: want to talk about with the pastors, so that we 217 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 2: weren't just saying what is true. We were also putting it. 218 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: This is true. 219 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:39,559 Speaker 2: But these are some of the arguments you're going to 220 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,199 Speaker 2: hear and how should you respond to them? How do 221 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 2: you teach healthy theology? So let's get back with doctor 222 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 2: Tommy Fretwell, a member of the Esteem, member of the 223 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 2: Joshua Fund team. And when we get back in just 224 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 2: a few moments, don't go away right here on inside 225 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 2: the episode. 226 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: You're listening to Inside the Epicenter Weekend edition with Joel Rosenberg. 227 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: Today's conversation is a reminder that the Bible story is 228 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: bigger than a few favorite passages, and understanding God's heart 229 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: for Israel helps us understand the whole sweep of scripture. 230 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,319 Speaker 1: If this conversation is stirring your heart, there's much more 231 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:22,839 Speaker 1: waiting for you in our podcast feed. More than three 232 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty episodes of Inside the Epicenter available on 233 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: your favorite podcast app, covering Israel's security, prophecy, the Arab world, 234 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: and how to pray for Israel and her neighbors. Just 235 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: search for it on your favorite podcast app or visit 236 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: Joshua Fund dot com slash radio. There you can also 237 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 1: learn about the Joshua Fund and how Joel and Lynn 238 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: are strengthening believers in offering practical help across the region. 239 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: Again Joshua Fund dot com, slash Radio. Now back to 240 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: Joel and Tommy as they walk through the biblical, historical, 241 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: and theological roots of replacement theology. 242 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 2: Okay, Tommy, let's get back to as you kind of 243 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 2: walk a through how you led these pastors and ministry 244 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 2: leaders and their wives through this conversation. 245 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 3: Sure, so I went to Romans chapter eleven, So thanks 246 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 3: for reading some of that, and I pulled out five 247 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 3: points which I used to present a foundation, or a 248 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 3: skeletal outline, you could say, of a proper biblical theology 249 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 3: of Israel, and just having that answers a lot of 250 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 3: those questions, like what about the fact that they many 251 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 3: of them, don't believe in Jesus. They do seem to 252 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 3: reject Jesus, and the Church struggles knowing how to relate 253 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 3: to that. The Bible gives us, It doesn't leave us wondering. 254 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:39,559 Speaker 3: I believe it gives us very clear answers on that. 255 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 3: So if it's okay, I'll read a few scriptures and 256 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 3: just make brief comments on them. So I usually start 257 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 3: with Romans eleven twenty five, which says, for I do 258 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 3: not want you brethren to be uninformed of this mystery, 259 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 3: so that you will not be wise in your own 260 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 3: estimation and stop. Stop there. We've spoken on this a 261 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 3: little bit. So my first point that I raise is 262 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 3: there was obviously a need for Paul to write to 263 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 3: the Gentile Church, the Church in Rome at this point, 264 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 3: warning them of ignorance and arrogance towards their understanding of 265 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 3: the people of Israel. And that's an important point because, 266 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 3: as we've gone over briefly, church history proves often the 267 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 3: Church has reacted in a way that places ourselves above them, 268 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 3: and you could call that arrogance and then quite often 269 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 3: in ignorance too in the way that we treat them 270 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 3: because of these different things. So that's the first point, 271 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 3: just to put it on the tables, and everyone knows that, 272 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 3: and you can go into the history. For timesake, we 273 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 3: won't do that. Now, let's move into the more substantive 274 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 3: kind of theological answers. So then we continue with Romans 275 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 3: eleven twenty five, where he Paul starts to explain these things. 276 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 3: He says, I don't want you to be ignorant run 277 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 3: informed that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until 278 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 3: the fullness of the gentiles has come in such an 279 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 3: important verse here in forming a theology of Israel. And 280 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 3: this is talking about Israel as a national elect group here, 281 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 3: but it does describe them as being partially hard and 282 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 3: that means, yes, as you said, the apostle Paul got saved, 283 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 3: or the Jewish apostles got saved, there are still and 284 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 3: have always been a few Jewish believers the remnant, according 285 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 3: to Grace, but it does seem to describe that as 286 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 3: a large corporate body. The majority at this time are 287 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 3: partially hardened. He doesn't again leave us wondering why this 288 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 3: is Roman's eleven. A little bit earlier in the chapter, 289 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 3: you know, he highlights did they stumble so as to fall? 290 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 3: May it never be by their transgression salvation has come 291 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 3: to the gentiles to make them jealous. Now, if their 292 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 3: transgression is riches for the world, and their failure as 293 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 3: riches for the gentiles, how much more would their fulfillment be. 294 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 3: So he's starting to build this wonderful picture, and you 295 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 3: must follow the whole thing. Yes, the leadership led the 296 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 3: nation in a rejection of the Messiah in the first century. 297 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 3: This then meant that the Gospel, the message of the 298 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 3: Jewish Messiah, went out to all the nations, to the Gentiles, 299 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 3: and through the New Covenant, he started calling bringing a 300 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 3: people together out from the g tells for his name. 301 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 3: But that's just half the story, and the Church often 302 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 3: just stops there. They think that's the end, that's the 303 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 3: final piece. The apostle Paul does not allow that, and 304 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 3: that's why he says it's happened. This hardening has happened 305 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 3: until the fullness of the gentiles become in. It shows 306 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 3: that the hardness of Israel is both partial and also temporary. 307 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 3: That means there's a definite time when that hardness is 308 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 3: going to lift. And this is the exciting part of 309 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 3: the story. And if you remember, this is speaking about 310 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 3: national Israel. Jesus uses these until verses quite a lot 311 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 3: in the Gospels. Remember Matthew twenty three thirty nine, from 312 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 3: now on, you will not see me until you say, 313 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 3: blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. 314 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 3: So he's building this picture that seems to include Paul's 315 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 3: sketch of salvation history includes unbelieving Israel in the present age, 316 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 3: because he speaks of the time both from the first 317 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 3: century when the nation rejected him as the messiah, and 318 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 3: then he jumps and speaks about this time until they 319 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 3: once again will say Blessed is he who comes in 320 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 3: the name of the Lord. And Paul is saying the 321 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 3: same thing here. So the whole time that we call 322 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 3: in between that is what scholar is sometimes called the 323 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 3: Church age or the time that we're in now. Paul's 324 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 3: theology of Israel includes unbelieving Israel in the present age. 325 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 3: So with that in theology, you cannot hold to a 326 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 3: hard punitive view that simply says they have been forever 327 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 3: cast off, they've been forever rejected because of that sin, 328 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 3: because Pool here puts a time limit on that. 329 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 2: And I think it's important, Tommy, that our readers, listeners, 330 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 2: viewers don't go to one or the other extremes. And 331 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 2: the one hand guy's not completely rejected. Well, this is 332 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 2: a partial hardening, meaning meaning some people will get it right. 333 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 2: And then we see that all through acts, and we've 334 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 2: seen it throughout history, and it's growing even more now, 335 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 2: you know, as we've gone from about two thousand Jews 336 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 2: who believe in Jesus in nineteen sixty seven to about 337 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 2: a million today, So we're really, you know, heading in deeper, 338 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 2: deeper time or God is removing that hardening. But there 339 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 2: is a hardening, but it is partial, so God hasn't 340 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 2: completely rejected the Jews. But we also have to remember 341 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 2: Jesus himself said that the rejection of him and his 342 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 2: kingdom was going to lead to the destruction of the Temple, 343 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 2: was going to lead to their destruction of Jerusalem. And 344 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 2: lead to the nation to exile. He was also drawing 345 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 2: on Daniel chapter nine, which is exactly what happened. And 346 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 2: so it is true that something catastrophic happened. It didn't 347 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 2: happen the day after the nation rejected Jesus the Father 348 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 2: gave the nation forty more years or thereabouts to process this, 349 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 2: and yet the judgment did fall. But again it was 350 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 2: a massive judgment, but it wasn't final. So I just 351 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 2: wanted to underscore those a few things. 352 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 3: Okay, back to you, Yeah, yeah, very important point to 353 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 3: underscore that. So that's the second point. Then we move 354 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 3: on from into Romans eleven twenty six and Pool actually 355 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 3: comes to now the future. He's looking forward now, I believe, 356 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 3: and he says, and so all Israel will be saved, 357 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 3: just as it is written. The deliverer will come from Zion. 358 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 3: He will remove ungodliness from Jacob. This is my covenant 359 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 3: with them when I take away their sins. And again, 360 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 3: these two verses absolutely crucial to proper understanding. We've just 361 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 3: had him lay out. It's a partial hardening, but it's 362 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 3: a hardening that has a definite end the until now. 363 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 3: I believe he's speaking of that time when the until 364 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 3: does end, and he says, and so all Israel will 365 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,719 Speaker 3: be saved. So that's the third point. There in the 366 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 3: future Israel will experience a national regeneration based on the 367 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 3: New Covenant wonderful truth. And then I know a short time, 368 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 3: so briefly, I can just give the final two points 369 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 3: if we want to do that a Romans eleven twenty eight. 370 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 3: He goes on, from the standpoint of the Gospel, they 371 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 3: are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of 372 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 3: God's choice, they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 373 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 3: Very important verse two, because a complaint you'll often hear is, well, 374 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 3: they believe in Jesus or they don't let you preach 375 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 3: the Gospel, so therefore it shows that they're against Christ. 376 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 3: It's not quite that simple, and I think pauls it 377 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 3: highlighting that here, as we've learned, they rejected the Gospel. 378 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 3: The Gospel went out to the gentiles. That's what he 379 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 3: means when he says they're enemies for your sake. But 380 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 3: immediately in case people misunderstand that, like off they often do, 381 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 3: he then goes on to remind everyone, but they are 382 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 3: still beloved for the sake of the fathers, and when 383 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 3: he mentions the Father's there, he's speaking of the patriarchs, 384 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 3: isn't he like you said that the ones who received 385 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 3: the covenantal promises that speak of all these things. So 386 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,159 Speaker 3: what he's basically saying is they're not cast off forever. 387 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 3: They may be in a state of rejection and hardness now, 388 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 3: but the covenantal promises, God's words still stands, and my 389 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 3: future promises for their regeneration will come to pass at 390 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 3: some point. So it's again another affirmation that they are 391 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 3: not cast off permanently. And then finally, it's almost like 392 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 3: he needs to drum it home with one more statement 393 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 3: eleven twenty nine. He says, for the gifts and Calling 394 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 3: of God irrevocable, a wonderful summation to this whole teaching 395 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 3: on Israel that he has here. I find the church 396 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 3: quote this verse all the time in relation to spiritual gifts, 397 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 3: and whilst that's a great conversation to have, I don't 398 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 3: believe that's what Paul has in mind, because this is 399 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 3: following on from this wonderful outline of theology that he's given. 400 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 3: I think it's his final sentence, just to make sure 401 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 3: everyone knows the gifts and calling. I believe this is 402 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 3: speaking of the specific role and purposes and promises given 403 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 3: to Israel in these covenants, both the Abrahammick and then 404 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 3: also the New Covenant that Paul's also mentioned here too, 405 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 3: and he says they are irrevocable, they cannot be taken away, 406 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 3: they can't be broken. I believe that's what he's getting 407 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 3: at here. So it's his final sentence, and we don't 408 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 3: need more than that. The word of God is powerful. 409 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 2: Amen. Well, it is fatting to me that right in 410 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 2: the most fascinating and nuanced and detailed theology of the 411 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,880 Speaker 2: New Testament, the New Covenant, which is the Book of Romans, 412 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 2: the Holy Spirit tells the apostle Paul, who once hated 413 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 2: Jesus with an intense passion, hated the followers of Jesus, 414 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 2: and then the God radically saved him, that he would 415 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 2: devote these three chapters Romans nine, ten, and eleven to saying, Okay, 416 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 2: you're gentiles, you believe in Jesus, not wonderful, but don't 417 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 2: be arrogant, don't be blind, don't be ignorant. God does 418 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 2: love the Jewish people. Most of the Jewish people do 419 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 2: not love God. Currently, they don't know Jesus. But God 420 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 2: still loves them, and he has a plan for them. 421 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 2: And God's not finished with them. And in time, God, 422 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 2: you know that more and more of their hearts and 423 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 2: eyes will open and they will come to faith, and 424 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 2: in fact, eventually all of Israel will come to faith. 425 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 2: That's really pretty powerful. Plus he starts the whole book 426 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 2: to the Letter to Romans in Romans one sixteen that 427 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 2: the power of God, the salvation of God is for 428 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 2: the jew first and then for the gentile. Also, why 429 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 2: would that be true if God was already done with 430 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 2: the Jews? Why would Paul be saved much less? Why 431 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 2: would he say to the home in church, you know 432 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 2: in chapter one, God loves the Jews, and bring the 433 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 2: Gospel to them as a matter of priority. To the gentiles, absolutely, 434 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 2: but bring the Gospel to the Jews as a matter 435 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 2: of priority, a high priority. These are important points. And Tommy, 436 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 2: I'm so grateful for your years of research and how 437 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 2: you've really learned all these arguments against but the biblical 438 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 2: case for God's love and continued love and plan and 439 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 2: prophetic plan for Israel and the Jewish people, and how 440 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 2: you've learned to explain it well and reasonably and accessibly, 441 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 2: and we definitely need to do another one of these 442 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 2: because we in many ways we are scratching the service. 443 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 2: But part of inside the Epicenter is giving people a 444 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 2: chance to go long form. But not forever. We're not 445 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 2: doing Joe Rogan here, you know, or whatever. I'm not 446 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 2: sure where the even jocal version would be of Joe Rogan. 447 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 2: But we're not doing three hours. But this has been 448 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 2: still a lot of meat and potatoes, and I think 449 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 2: it will give people a lot to process, and I 450 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 2: hope that you'll share as you're out there processing this, 451 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:02,959 Speaker 2: share this with others, get in a conversation with him 452 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 2: as a couple, as a family, as a small group, 453 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 2: Bible study on your staff, if you're a pastor or 454 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 2: a ministry leader. Thank you so much for listening. We're 455 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 2: going to put some links to Tommy's resources, including a 456 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 2: book that he's written on this, and I think that 457 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 2: would be very helpful. Tommy, thank you so much for 458 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 2: your service on the Joshuapae team and for coming and 459 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 2: being part of the pastor's retreat. We really appreciate it. 460 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,120 Speaker 2: Pleasure bless you all right, and to all the rest 461 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 2: of you. Thank you for listening and for watching to 462 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 2: this edition this episode of Inside the Epicenter. God bless you. 463 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 2: We'll see you next time. In the meantime, thank you 464 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 2: for blessing Israel and her neighbors in the name of Jesus. 465 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: Well, that's our program for this week, but before we go, 466 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: we want to encourage you to check out Joel and 467 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: Lyn's podcast, Inside the Epicenter, which is in the top 468 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: one percent of all podcasts in the world. Just search 469 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: for the Inside the Epicenter podcast on your favorite podcast 470 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: app or visit Joshua Fun dot com slash radio. We've 471 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,679 Speaker 1: released over three hundred and fifty episodes, all with the 472 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 1: goal of helping you learn, pray, give, and go advancing 473 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: the Kingdom of Christ in the very place where scripture 474 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: was birthed and continues to come to life again. Simply 475 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: search for Inside the Epicenter with Joel c. Rosenberg on 476 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 1: your favorite podcast app or visit Joshua Fun dot com 477 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: slash radio. Thanks for joining us on Inside the Epicenter 478 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: weekend edition with Joel Rosenberg on behalf of the entire 479 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,880 Speaker 1: Joshua Fun team. We invite you to join us again 480 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: next week as we continue to unpack the headlines, the prophecies, 481 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: and the hope of Christ. It's rising in the Middle East. 482 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: Until then, stay watchful, stay prayerful, and keep your eyes 483 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 1: on the epicenter.