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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to I Wish You Could Hear This, where we

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Speaker 2: explore great stories and simple proven steps to help you

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Speaker 2: thrive in life, faith, and relationships.

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Speaker 3: In our research, we've heard hundreds of hope-filled strategies for marriage, parenting, leadership,

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Speaker 3: and life that are grounded in science and consistent with

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Speaker 3: biblical truth.

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Speaker 4: And now you can hear them too.

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Speaker 5: I'm Shanti Feldhahn.

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Speaker 1: And I'm Jeff Feldhahn.

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Speaker 2: One of the hardest journeys that a marriage can face

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Speaker 2: is rebuilding trust after infidelity or another serious betrayal. It

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Speaker 2: could be a physical affair, an emotional affair or even

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Speaker 2: a hidden gambling addiction that is suddenly discovered. Many couples

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Speaker 2: find themselves wondering whether trust can ever truly be restored

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Speaker 2: and where.

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Speaker 5: To even begin.

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Speaker 2: The good news is that healing is truly possible. Mark

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Speaker 2: and Jill Savage know this journey firsthand as a high

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Speaker 2: profile author and a pastor. Their lives were shattered by

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Speaker 2: infidelity in their own marriage. But after a journey to

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Speaker 2: find hope and healing, they now spend their lives helping

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Speaker 2: other couples find that same healing and even emerge stronger.

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Speaker 2: They are joining us for today's episode of I Wish

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Speaker 2: You Could Hear This to share what they've learned about

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Speaker 2: rebuilding trust after betrayal.

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Speaker 4: Welcome, Mark and Jill. Thanks so much for coming on

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Speaker 4: the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Oh, we're excited.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, thanks for having us.

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Speaker 1: To join you. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Mark and Jill, you guys are dear friends of ours,

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Speaker 3: but let me tell our listeners a little bit about

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Speaker 3: you guys so that we can get everyone on the

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Speaker 3: same page. Mark and Jill Savage are passionate about encouraging, educating,

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Speaker 3: and equipping families and marriages. After serving in church ministry

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Speaker 3: for 20 years, the Savages are now meeting the needs

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Speaker 3: of families as authors, speakers, and marriage coaches. For many years,

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Speaker 3: Jill founded and ran an international ministry to moms called

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Speaker 3: Hearts at Home, which hosted events that Shanti spoke at

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Speaker 3: many times.

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Speaker 1: Many times.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. She's the host of the No More Perfect podcast.

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Speaker 3: and the author of 20 books, including the best-selling No

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Speaker 3: More Perfect Moms.

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Speaker 5: Great book.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Together, Mark and Jill have created five online marriage courses

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Speaker 3: and authored several books, including No More Perfect Marriages, I

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Speaker 3: Really Messed Up, and My Heart is Broken. They're especially

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Speaker 3: passionate about helping couples rebuild trust in their marriage after infidelity,

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Speaker 3: which is exactly what we're going to be talking about today.

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Speaker 4: So thank you, guys.

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Speaker 3: For being here and spending some time talking to us

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Speaker 3: about such an important topic.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, we're glad that we're able to do that.

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Speaker 7: It's a way that God has taken our pain and

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Speaker 7: used it for his purposes.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 3: Amen. You know, when I think of different ministry opportunities

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Speaker 3: that the Lord puts in our paths, I always think

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Speaker 3: that what I would really love is that ministry opportunity

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Speaker 3: of Being a tech billionaire who needs to tell people that,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's just not all it's cracked up to be.

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Speaker 3: And having that as my ministry focus. You guys, God

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Speaker 3: had a little different plan for y'all.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I think so.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 7: Well, I don't know if God had the exact plan

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Speaker 7: that we're walking. I think God redeemed what happened and

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Speaker 7: used it for his purposes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Actually, let's actually get into that. Like, I would love

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Speaker 2: it if we could start off by you guys sharing

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Speaker 2: a bit of your story and give us some background

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Speaker 2: so that our listeners get on the same space, on

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Speaker 2: the same page, and also how... what you've gone through

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Speaker 2: is impacting what you're doing right now.

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Speaker 1: Sure.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 7: Well, Mark and I have been married 43 years, but

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Speaker 7: we often say we've been married 43 years, 33 happily.

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Speaker 7: And it wasn't that there were 10 bad years in

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Speaker 7: a row.

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Speaker 1: There were a little bit here, a little bit there.

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Speaker 6: That's right.

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Speaker 1: Some more here. Yeah.

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Speaker 7: We had done some, we had done counseling off and

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Speaker 7: on over the years and, And it felt like things

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Speaker 7: would get better and then they would not.

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Speaker 6: And then they would get better.

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Speaker 7: A lot of it was Mark grew up in a

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Speaker 7: pretty dysfunctional home. And one of the things he used

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Speaker 7: to say was, I can't get free of me.

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Speaker 1: Right. And I think I had a steady diet of therapy,

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Speaker 1: even as pastoring. But It just wasn't getting to the

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Speaker 1: heart of my struggles. And I did say that quite often,

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Speaker 1: that I just can't get free of me. And that

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Speaker 1: really led me. So in 2011. Well, 2010, you left pastoring.

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Speaker 6: 2010, I left pastoring. And you'd been pastoring for quite

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Speaker 6: some time.

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Speaker 3: 20 years.

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Speaker 1: 20 years. I had left the marketplace when I was

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Speaker 1: young and pursued a degree and pursued pastoring. And that

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Speaker 1: was really the trajectory of my life. And I also

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Speaker 1: was raised in an environment that it's a man's world.

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Speaker 1: The woman's there to serve you. And yeah.

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Speaker 2: That went on really well with you, Jill, I'm sure.

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Speaker 2: I know you well enough.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: And what happened?

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Speaker 7: Hearts at Home started, which I call the ministry that

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Speaker 7: I didn't intend to start. You know, and it had this,

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Speaker 7: I mean, you know, we would have a conference who

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Speaker 7: would have 6,000 moms. And so our world became very

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Speaker 7: involved in, in that ministry, but that didn't line up

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Speaker 7: with what he struggled with.

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Speaker 1: Right. And so we were in constant flux between my

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Speaker 1: role as pastor and Jill did hop into that as

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Speaker 1: much as she could, but she had a very intense

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Speaker 1: role in Hearts at Home. And Jill is a very

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Speaker 1: strong person, has no trouble telling you what she thinks

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Speaker 1: or what should be done. And so I, um, I

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Speaker 1: just really, I'm.

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Speaker 2: Snickering over here because Jeff has no idea what you're

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Speaker 2: talking about.

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Speaker 6: No, I'm sure you guys have no clue.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: That's why the two of you have been such good friends.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Jeff and I are, uh, buddies. And so, uh, well,

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Speaker 1: Shanti too, but anyway, um, That.

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Speaker 2: Dynamic surely caused issues in your marriage.

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Speaker 3: It did.

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Speaker 5: And suddenly.

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Speaker 7: Well, because the other piece of that is that, you know,

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Speaker 7: much of the struggle from the abusive home that he

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Speaker 7: grew up in was a struggle with rejection, identity.

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Speaker 1: Shame.

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Speaker 6: Yeah. Shame. All of those kind of things.

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Speaker 3: And so.

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Speaker 7: um, that's the stuff that was rising up and it

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Speaker 7: was bumping up against all of this.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: And it was like, I couldn't get rid of that.

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Speaker 1: And so I, I decided after retiring from pastoring that

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Speaker 1: I was going to go back to what I had

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Speaker 1: really done on and off throughout my whole life. And

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Speaker 1: that was working on people's homes. And, uh, a two

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Speaker 1: by four doesn't argue about whether it's a two by

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Speaker 1: four or not, you know? And I just, I just,

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Speaker 1: I knew that I could just go do that and

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Speaker 1: be successful, but I still continued to spiral deeper and

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Speaker 1: deeper into a pit. Yeah.

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Speaker 7: It was like a depression and he had struggled with

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Speaker 7: depression off and on over the years, but this was like,

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Speaker 7: it was a spiral of depression.

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Speaker 6: I'd never seen before.

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Speaker 7: You know, we, he got it. an adjustment on some medication.

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Speaker 7: We did all kinds of things, but he was not in.

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Speaker 6: A good place. No, I wasn't. And in 2011 is.

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Speaker 1: I ventured into what we learned later was a midlife crisis.

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Speaker 1: I was so disappointed in my life. I was disappointed

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Speaker 1: in the outcomes. I found myself I was disappointed in

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Speaker 1: relationships and God and the church and everybody was a

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Speaker 1: problem but me. Until later, I realized that I was

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Speaker 1: the problem. So I found myself venturing into an affair.

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Speaker 1: It began as an emotional affair. And then later, within

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Speaker 1: six months, it became a physical affair. And Jill found

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Speaker 1: out about this early on, uh, in the emotional affair.

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Speaker 7: And, uh, he promised to quit and, or he promised

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Speaker 7: to break off any communication and, um, but it really

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Speaker 7: went underground is what happened. Um, and then eventually I

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Speaker 7: discovered the physical affair. Um, initially, um, was he he

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Speaker 7: recommitted to our marriage but then he would go back

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Speaker 7: and he would recommit and he would go back and

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Speaker 7: as you can imagine my world was upside down my

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Speaker 7: heart was broken I would have I would have said

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Speaker 7: we were least likely to ever have something like that

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Speaker 7: happen yeah.

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Speaker 1: I would have too. So I went back and forth

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Speaker 1: seven different times.

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Speaker 6: And eventually left.

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Speaker 1: And eventually I, actually February 4th of 2012, I ended

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Speaker 1: up moving out. I had secretly been setting up an apartment.

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Speaker 1: And then that night I told Jill I was leaving

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Speaker 1: her and I was going to file for divorce. And

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Speaker 1: so I moved out. I had convinced myself, guys, that

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Speaker 1: my kids would celebrate me. Dad, I can't believe you

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Speaker 1: lived with mom as long as you have. She's a

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Speaker 1: hard woman. And you know what? They did not do that.

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Speaker 3: Isn't it so fascinating how When we live in our

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Speaker 3: own thoughts and don't permit the Holy Spirit to.

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Speaker 4: Have access necessarily, or we're not.

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Speaker 3: Listening to him, that we can convince ourselves of the

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Speaker 3: craziest things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. I know. I know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: Well, and I'm really, when you think about it, he'd

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Speaker 7: been building resentment for many, many years.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 6: Many, many.

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Speaker 7: And I later found... out that he actually had a

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Speaker 7: paper that listed all the things wrong with me. And

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Speaker 7: he had been, he had been ruminating on that. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I had been, it was my prayer list. Really?

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Speaker 5: Of course. Of course it was.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: These are all the things I need to pray about

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Speaker 2: because Jerry's driving me crazy.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 5: I am because of, you.

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Speaker 2: Guys are aware, we've talked about it a little bit

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Speaker 2: on the podcast. Because of all the work Jeff and

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Speaker 2: I have been doing on mental and emotional health the

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Speaker 2: last few years and all the work for Habits of Hope,

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Speaker 2: the book that's coming up, one of the things that

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Speaker 2: we have seen in our research and in all the

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Speaker 2: other research out there is that that ruminating, there is

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Speaker 2: no hope. point at which oh that always leads to

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Speaker 2: a good place like that it's not like that ever

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Speaker 2: is successful it's not that that ever puts you into

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Speaker 2: a better spot even if what you think is that

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Speaker 2: you are trying to be realistic and identifying things that

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Speaker 2: need to be worked on it that there is a

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Speaker 2: very different feeling of if you're ruminating on it rather

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Speaker 2: than taking those thoughts captive and saying, yes, those are issues,

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Speaker 2: but Hey, there's all these other things.

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Speaker 5: That are very real and very good as well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And so I'm, I am curious if you guys don't

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Speaker 2: mind turning the corner because I can remember this gel

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Speaker 2: like in 2012, when would you announce it?

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Speaker 6: It was, was it 2012? It was 2012. Yeah.

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Speaker 7: Because I, we were still, I mean, Mark had just left.

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Speaker 7: probably four weeks before the conference.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I mean, I can remember this and going and

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Speaker 2: everybody going, Oh my gosh, like, like how painful, like

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Speaker 2: you were leading this international ministry. What, what was the

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Speaker 2: hardest part of navigating this as well? I think kind

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Speaker 2: of as public figures.

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Speaker 6: Right. Right. And I think for me, I.

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Speaker 7: Am, I mean, my ministry was built on authenticity and, and,

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Speaker 7: I didn't want, that's why I chose to talk about

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Speaker 7: it at the conference, even though it was very fresh

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Speaker 7: and that was very scary. But I didn't want to

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Speaker 7: pretend like life was okay. And quite frankly, at that point,

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Speaker 7: I mean, our boys, we had two teenagers still at home.

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Speaker 7: We had three kids in their 20s. Until he left,

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Speaker 7: they were blissfully unaware.

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Speaker 6: Interesting.

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Speaker 1: Interesting.

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Speaker 6: Now that was intentional.

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Speaker 7: I didn't, I mean, honestly, it wasn't that I wanted

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Speaker 7: to keep it from them forever, but I was dealing

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Speaker 7: with my own pain and I didn't want to have

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Speaker 7: to deal with their pain at the same time. And

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Speaker 7: my hope was, hey, we can tell them about this

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Speaker 7: hard thing that we went through, but look what God did.

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Speaker 6: And so that was my hope. But when he left,

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Speaker 6: then that opened everything up, right?

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 6: So what turned the corner?

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Speaker 2: Like, tell us, tell us, because everybody is like leaning

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Speaker 2: forward in their seats and going, what happened?

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Speaker 7: Well, yeah, let me share literally what happened on Easter Sunday.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: So this was 2012. So this is, he's left February 4th.

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Speaker 7: So this is now April.

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Speaker 6: Okay.

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Speaker 7: So this is April because Easter was early April that year.

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Speaker 7: And we had had a new grandbaby and grandbaby had

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Speaker 7: been born in Chicago. I'd gone up to be there

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Speaker 7: for the birth. And then Mark, we were separated, but

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Speaker 7: he stayed home with our.

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Speaker 6: Two teenage boys.

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Speaker 7: And when baby was born, he brought the boys up

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Speaker 7: so everybody can meet the baby. And then I had

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Speaker 7: ridden the train up. So we all traveled back together.

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Speaker 7: So as difficult as that was, we were, you know,

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Speaker 7: trying to be to co-parent well in that, you know,

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Speaker 7: that season. So we got back home. It, uh, it

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Speaker 7: was like 2 AM and I said, why don't you

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Speaker 7: just sleep on the couch?

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Speaker 6: It was late.

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Speaker 7: He was still had another 20, 30 minute drive home.

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Speaker 7: And so he did the next morning. Our boys got up,

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Speaker 7: went to, um, Easter on their own. Uh, they were

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Speaker 7: both on the worship team, one working sound, one working music. And, um,

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Speaker 7: And I was gonna join them later because Mark had

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Speaker 7: not been to church in six months.

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Speaker 6: And so anyway, Mark came in my bedroom.

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Speaker 7: And said, I just want you to know that I'm

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Speaker 7: filing for divorce this week.

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Speaker 6: And I didn't know what to say.

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Speaker 7: And one of the places that God had been working

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Speaker 7: on me, because one of the things that I was

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Speaker 7: saying to myself and to others who were in my

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Speaker 7: healing circle was I didn't cause Mark's affair, but I

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Speaker 7: have contributed to the dysfunction in our marriage. And one

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Speaker 7: of the ways that I knew I had is that my,

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Speaker 7: oftentimes my words were cutting or they were sharp or

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Speaker 7: they were parenting. And so I was really measuring my words.

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Speaker 7: Like I was like, Lord, if you don't give it

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Speaker 7: to me, I don't say it. And so in that

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Speaker 7: moment when he said, I'm filing for divorce this week,

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Speaker 7: I just was like, Lord, I don't know what to say.

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Speaker 7: And the only thing that came to my mind was,

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Speaker 7: you know, Mark, Jesus didn't want to go to the cross.

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Speaker 7: He asked God, take this cup from me. But then

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Speaker 7: he surrendered and said, not my will, but yours be done.

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Speaker 1: So when I came in to tell Jill that I

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Speaker 1: was filing for divorce, I actually carried in a piece

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Speaker 1: of paper. And on the backside of this paper was

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Speaker 1: the list of things that I had ruminated against Jill.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I carried it with me like an inventory.

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Speaker 1: And I would add to it, but I never subtracted.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I was going to say you didn't cross anything off.

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Speaker 1: No, I didn't. But I had been noticing that Jill,

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Speaker 1: things were starting to be different in her. And when

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Speaker 1: I first saw it, I didn't trust it. I felt

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Speaker 1: like she was manipulating me, trying to suck me back

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Speaker 1: into the vortex. But I saw the longevity of it.

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Speaker 1: And part of my dilemma was my relationship with Jill

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Speaker 1: wasn't working. My kids were devastated. This other relationship was

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Speaker 1: falling apart. I couldn't satisfy anybody. And really my intent

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Speaker 1: at that moment was I need to divorce. I need

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Speaker 1: to let my family be free and heal. And I

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Speaker 1: need to live in ruin.

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Speaker 4: Live in ruin?

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Wow. So what's interesting to me as you're saying this, Mark,

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Speaker 3: is that, and I know that there are probably some

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Speaker 3: men and women out there listening. And they're in kind

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Speaker 3: of this stage where they're wondering, it's better for me

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Speaker 3: to leave my marriage. And the thoughts that the enemy

340
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Speaker 3: will place in is that it's going to be better.

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Speaker 3: It's just so, this other person is so... Not for you.

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Speaker 3: And look at this other opportunity in front of you.

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Speaker 4: It's going to be better.

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Speaker 2: Or even if you don't have another opportunity in front

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Speaker 2: of you.

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Speaker 4: It's going to be better.

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Speaker 6: It's better for everybody.

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Speaker 5: I've said this so many times in our research.

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Speaker 1: It'll be so.

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Speaker 5: Much better for everybody to let them move on.

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Speaker 4: But in the history of humans, that's never been the case.

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Speaker 4: You're not going to... be the outlier where it is

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Speaker 4: going to be super, super better.

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Speaker 5: Unless it's like a truly abusive.

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Speaker 6: Oh, sure, sure. Oh, sure.

356
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Speaker 4: We're not talking about that. So that's it. So keep going.

357
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Speaker 4: I'm sorry I interrupted.

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Speaker 5: I want the story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

361
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Speaker 3: Yeah.

362
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Speaker 6: Yeah.

363
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Speaker 7: Well, he had actually walked in with that paper and

364
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Speaker 7: on the other side it was blank.

365
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Speaker 5: Right.

366
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Speaker 6: And he had drawn a line down the middle and he.

367
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Speaker 7: Had said, this is my yard and this is your yard.

368
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Speaker 6: And this is the fence.

369
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Speaker 7: And we've been meeting at the fence, but I don't

370
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Speaker 7: want to meet at the fence anymore. And I don't

371
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Speaker 7: want you in my yard and I don't want to

372
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Speaker 7: be in yours. Now I have no idea what's on

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Speaker 7: the other side of this, but that's, that's what he

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Speaker 7: told me.

375
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Speaker 3: All right.

376
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Speaker 6: And so then when I responded the way I did.

377
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Speaker 7: Mark, I, I, you know, Jesus didn't want to go

378
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Speaker 7: to the cross, but he eventually surrendered and said, not

379
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Speaker 7: my will, but yours be done.

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Speaker 1: It was the craziest thing. I mean, I was such

381
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Speaker 1: a emotional mental wreck. I didn't even know it was Easter. Uh,

382
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Speaker 1: I didn't know what, I knew it was Sunday, but

383
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Speaker 1: I didn't know where we were in the calendar. I

384
00:20:59,590 --> 00:21:04,890
Speaker 1: was just drifting along, lost. And it was in that

385
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Speaker 1: moment that Jill said this, I felt like Father God

386
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Speaker 1: put his arm on my shoulder and said, Mark, if

387
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Speaker 1: you will trust me for the list, I'll take care

388
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Speaker 1: of the rest. So if you'll trust me with the list,

389
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Speaker 1: I'll take care of the rest. And in my desperation...

390
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Speaker 1: I was like, I'm in. I don't even know how to.

391
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Speaker 1: I can't fix this. I the mess is so big.

392
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Speaker 1: I don't even know what to do. So that's all

393
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Speaker 1: happening in my head. And then I look to Jill

394
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Speaker 1: and I say, oh, my gosh, is today Easter?

395
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Speaker 3: And.

396
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Speaker 1: Uh, she looked at me like, um, I was from

397
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Speaker 1: another planet, you know, but, um, uh, and then I

398
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Speaker 1: was like, I'm going to pray that same prayer. And

399
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Speaker 1: so I just, Lord, I've made a mess. And I,

400
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Speaker 1: I spoke this out loud.

401
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Speaker 4: Lord, this was with her present.

402
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Speaker 1: Yeah. This was all in a matter of minutes.

403
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Speaker 6: Yeah. This was, I mean, we're talking whiplash here, right?

404
00:22:09,410 --> 00:22:09,690
Speaker 1: Right.

405
00:22:10,250 --> 00:22:11,649
Speaker 6: I'm going to file for divorce.

406
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Speaker 2: Yeah.

407
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Speaker 6: And now he's praying a prayer of surrender.

408
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Speaker 1: Yep. So I prayed and Lord, I've made a big mess.

409
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Speaker 1: I don't even know how to fix it. It's no

410
00:22:23,450 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 1: longer my will. And I surrender myself to your will.

411
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Speaker 1: And I wadded up the paper and threw it away.

412
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Speaker 1: And then I looked at Jill and I said, hey,

413
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Speaker 1: can we go to church together?

414
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Speaker 6: I mean, I just was like, what just happened?

415
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Speaker 5: I don't.

416
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Speaker 6: And, and yet I could even, I could see.

417
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Speaker 7: And I, I was like, something just happened.

418
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Speaker 6: Like, but I, I, I didn't trust it.

419
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Speaker 2: Right.

420
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Speaker 6: But I was like, of course we can go to church.

421
00:23:00,500 --> 00:23:02,580
Speaker 2: Let, and let me just chime in here for just

422
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Speaker 2: a second, because I can guarantee there are some people

423
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Speaker 2: here who are, who are listening to this.

424
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Speaker 5: Going, oh, well, that's great for you.

425
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Speaker 2: You guys had this like turning point, you know, where

426
00:23:16,260 --> 00:23:20,730
Speaker 2: everything turned a corner because God did this miraculous thing

427
00:23:20,830 --> 00:23:24,070
Speaker 2: and gave Jill some words to say. And Mark responded

428
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Speaker 2: and like, well, that's not my story. And it's like, well,

429
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Speaker 2: that was their story because that's how God worked in

430
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Speaker 2: your lives.

431
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Speaker 5: God is always working.

432
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Speaker 1: Right.

433
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Speaker 5: John 5, 17, Jesus said, the father, my father.

434
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Speaker 6: Is always working.

435
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 5: And so am I. That's his words.

436
00:23:46,220 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 2: And so it's like, yeah, if you're listening to this

437
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:53,610
Speaker 2: and you haven't seen a turning point, a corner turned,

438
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Speaker 2: if you haven't like had one moment where you see that,

439
00:23:56,850 --> 00:23:58,970
Speaker 2: it doesn't mean God isn't working.

440
00:23:59,270 --> 00:24:01,550
Speaker 5: It's just, he's working in the way that you need.

441
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Speaker 6: That's right.

442
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Speaker 7: And what I will say is, That was at that

443
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 7: point that had been nine months and I had seen

444
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Speaker 7: no evidence of God working in that nine months.

445
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Speaker 6: None.

446
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:21,580
Speaker 7: And and and oftentimes, you know, what was going on

447
00:24:21,619 --> 00:24:25,540
Speaker 7: for me is I can remember the day the day

448
00:24:25,660 --> 00:24:30,180
Speaker 7: after I found out about the affair, I was a wreck.

449
00:24:31,930 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 7: I was on the floor crying. Carpet is wet. I

450
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,900
Speaker 7: don't even know what to do. And I'm begging God,

451
00:24:40,940 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 7: tell me what to do. Do I need to kick

452
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:49,570
Speaker 7: him out? Do I need to get some bank accounts?

453
00:24:50,850 --> 00:24:52,670
Speaker 6: Do I need to protect myself? What do I need

454
00:24:52,710 --> 00:24:53,030
Speaker 6: to do?

455
00:24:53,730 --> 00:24:56,090
Speaker 7: Those are all the things that start to run through

456
00:24:56,109 --> 00:25:00,689
Speaker 7: somebody's head that's dealing with betrayal. And I heard one

457
00:25:00,730 --> 00:25:04,050
Speaker 7: thing that day and all I heard was, I want

458
00:25:04,090 --> 00:25:08,870
Speaker 7: you to love him. And it wasn't that there was

459
00:25:08,970 --> 00:25:10,369
Speaker 7: like a voice out of heaven.

460
00:25:10,490 --> 00:25:12,550
Speaker 6: It's just that that thought came in my mind and

461
00:25:12,609 --> 00:25:15,030
Speaker 6: I knew it wasn't mine. I knew it wasn't mine.

462
00:25:15,090 --> 00:25:16,990
Speaker 7: Because I'm going to tell you, I did not feel

463
00:25:17,020 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 7: any love at that moment.

464
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:19,899
Speaker 4: I was angry.

465
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 6: I was hurt. I was devastated. And I remember.

466
00:25:27,980 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 7: Responding back to the Lord. I don't know if you've noticed,

467
00:25:34,460 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 7: but he's not very lovable right now.

468
00:25:38,030 --> 00:25:39,369
Speaker 6: And God whispered.

469
00:25:39,030 --> 00:25:41,689
Speaker 7: Back to my heart, I don't know if you've noticed,

470
00:25:41,850 --> 00:25:43,590
Speaker 7: but sometimes you aren't either.

471
00:25:46,750 --> 00:25:50,030
Speaker 6: And that was really, I mean, really all of that.

472
00:25:50,060 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 6: I was like, Lord, you're right.

473
00:25:52,980 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 7: You love me when I'm unlovable. I don't know how

474
00:25:58,080 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 7: to do that.

475
00:25:59,570 --> 00:26:00,189
Speaker 6: Wow.

476
00:26:00,390 --> 00:26:04,210
Speaker 3: Can I just say to everyone who's listening in this,

477
00:26:06,210 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 3: I've known these guys now for quite some time, and

478
00:26:09,300 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 3: the humility in which they walk.

479
00:26:12,380 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 4: In their lives is remarkable.

480
00:26:15,020 --> 00:26:20,880
Speaker 3: This is what you're describing is humility for both of you,

481
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,260
Speaker 3: but Jill especially. And one of the things that in

482
00:26:25,300 --> 00:26:30,730
Speaker 3: today's world, You know, it's helpful to have some people

483
00:26:30,850 --> 00:26:35,380
Speaker 3: in our lives that can support and speak, you know,

484
00:26:35,450 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 3: to us in those hurting moments. One of the challenges

485
00:26:39,180 --> 00:26:43,900
Speaker 3: that I see is so often we surround ourselves sometimes

486
00:26:43,980 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 3: with online communities who don't really know us and will

487
00:26:49,980 --> 00:26:57,170
Speaker 3: affirm our worst behavior. feelings about our spouse sometimes. Did

488
00:26:57,230 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 3: you have individuals around you? And if there were some

489
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 3: who were saying, oh, Jill, you've been so wronged. You

490
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,100
Speaker 3: need to kick that guy to the curb and move on.

491
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 4: How did you navigate those relationships?

492
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:15,590
Speaker 6: I had both.

493
00:27:15,900 --> 00:27:18,890
Speaker 7: I had some that were standing with me and believed

494
00:27:18,990 --> 00:27:20,050
Speaker 7: in the possibility.

495
00:27:20,770 --> 00:27:21,310
Speaker 6: I had.

496
00:27:21,900 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 7: some that were, and especially as time went on, you know,

497
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,120
Speaker 7: even my Christian counselor was at the end was starting

498
00:27:29,170 --> 00:27:31,570
Speaker 7: to go, you know, Jill, I think you're going to

499
00:27:31,630 --> 00:27:36,730
Speaker 7: need to consider life without Mark. And, um, and I

500
00:27:36,770 --> 00:27:39,310
Speaker 7: was really starting, I mean, I had a girlfriend that

501
00:27:39,390 --> 00:27:42,790
Speaker 7: challenged me that I was making saving my marriage an idol.

502
00:27:43,750 --> 00:27:46,950
Speaker 7: And honestly, I was at one point and I had

503
00:27:46,990 --> 00:27:50,130
Speaker 7: to get that back in, uh, you know, in its

504
00:27:50,230 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 7: proper place.

505
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,360
Speaker 6: And I also had.

506
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 7: Dear friends that, I mean, dear faith-filled friends, but they

507
00:27:58,260 --> 00:28:02,010
Speaker 7: were like, you need to be done. And what I

508
00:28:02,109 --> 00:28:05,169
Speaker 7: had to learn is I had to learn how to

509
00:28:05,290 --> 00:28:07,990
Speaker 7: follow the voice of the Holy Spirit.

510
00:28:08,390 --> 00:28:09,610
Speaker 3: Wow.

511
00:28:09,750 --> 00:28:12,859
Speaker 7: Because that was the hardest part is that, of course,

512
00:28:12,970 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 7: everybody around you has lots of opinions.

513
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:17,500
Speaker 3: Right.

514
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:22,130
Speaker 6: And I just, I had to just really....

515
00:28:22,820 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 7: Dig in and be like, Lord, you're going to have

516
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 7: to be the one that leads the way.

517
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 6: You're going to have to show me what to do.

518
00:28:28,700 --> 00:28:29,740
Speaker 6: And I did get to the.

519
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,340
Speaker 7: Place where I believed that whether my marriage made it

520
00:28:33,540 --> 00:28:37,140
Speaker 7: or didn't make it, God was going to redeem all

521
00:28:37,180 --> 00:28:37,460
Speaker 7: of this.

522
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:39,290
Speaker 1: Interesting.

523
00:28:39,510 --> 00:28:43,230
Speaker 7: And that was, that was important for me because that's

524
00:28:43,290 --> 00:28:46,870
Speaker 7: how I kept from making, saving my marriage an idol anymore.

525
00:28:46,930 --> 00:28:49,910
Speaker 7: Like it was like, I'm going to be okay either way.

526
00:28:49,930 --> 00:28:50,710
Speaker 1: I want.

527
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 6: My marriage to make it.

528
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,060
Speaker 7: I believed that if God would return or if Mark

529
00:28:57,100 --> 00:29:00,380
Speaker 7: would return to his God, he would return to our marriage.

530
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,060
Speaker 7: I really believed that. And certainly that is what ended

531
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:04,740
Speaker 7: up happening.

532
00:29:04,860 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 2: But I'm, I'm curious about something super practical about this.

533
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 2: If you don't, do you mind if I just dive

534
00:29:12,300 --> 00:29:12,780
Speaker 2: into a couple?

535
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,300
Speaker 6: Yeah, go ahead.

536
00:29:14,780 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 2: Because one of the things I want to make sure we,

537
00:29:17,620 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 2: we cover in the limited time that we have is,

538
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,020
Speaker 2: are some of the things that you have now found

539
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,490
Speaker 2: as you have helped many.

540
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,770
Speaker 5: Other couples work through this.

541
00:29:28,910 --> 00:29:32,650
Speaker 2: And we'll get to how God changed the story and

542
00:29:32,810 --> 00:29:37,090
Speaker 2: redeemed this. But in that time, in that middle season

543
00:29:38,130 --> 00:29:41,660
Speaker 2: where you're like, I don't know how to do this. Um,

544
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 2: the thing that you had to start doing when things,

545
00:29:46,550 --> 00:29:50,810
Speaker 2: and we'll, we'll say how that happened, but once the,

546
00:29:51,330 --> 00:29:54,770
Speaker 2: there was a slight corner turn, once the Holy spirit

547
00:29:54,810 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 2: did the thing that happened on that Easter Sunday, um,

548
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 2: you're rebuilding trust. Like this is not like you said,

549
00:30:02,660 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 2: you didn't trust it like this.

550
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 5: You're, you're not sure what's happening.

551
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:13,950
Speaker 2: And in any situation, whether it's infidelity or you discover

552
00:30:13,970 --> 00:30:17,250
Speaker 2: that somebody has a pornography addiction or like I have,

553
00:30:17,270 --> 00:30:20,110
Speaker 2: I have an old friend who discovered that her husband

554
00:30:20,530 --> 00:30:21,890
Speaker 2: had a gambling addiction.

555
00:30:22,010 --> 00:30:23,530
Speaker 5: And the only way that she.

556
00:30:23,370 --> 00:30:27,229
Speaker 2: Discovered that was, was because all of a sudden there

557
00:30:27,250 --> 00:30:30,030
Speaker 2: was no money in their bank account. And he had

558
00:30:30,070 --> 00:30:33,850
Speaker 2: been skimming off his paycheck for gambling and couldn't cover

559
00:30:33,890 --> 00:30:36,340
Speaker 2: it all. And it pulled out of their account and

560
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 2: he literally had no money. And it like, it was,

561
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 2: it was, they lost their house.

562
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,100
Speaker 5: They, it was devastating. Yes.

563
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 2: And that's, that's another kind of betrayal. And, and in

564
00:30:48,180 --> 00:30:52,260
Speaker 2: that case, their marriage didn't survive, but your marriage did. And,

565
00:30:53,530 --> 00:30:57,030
Speaker 2: It doesn't always happen this way, but the key was

566
00:30:57,130 --> 00:31:00,650
Speaker 2: rebuilding trust. It was trusting God, listening to the Holy Spirit,

567
00:31:00,970 --> 00:31:05,230
Speaker 2: and then that step by step by step of rebuilding

568
00:31:05,610 --> 00:31:05,970
Speaker 2: the trust.

569
00:31:05,990 --> 00:31:08,310
Speaker 5: So I'm curious how you did that.

570
00:31:08,910 --> 00:31:14,390
Speaker 7: Yeah, I will say, so the formula for rebuilding trust

571
00:31:14,450 --> 00:31:19,580
Speaker 7: is consistent change behavior over time. And we like to

572
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:24,150
Speaker 7: think of it as, When you get married, you each

573
00:31:24,190 --> 00:31:25,830
Speaker 7: have a bathtub full of trust.

574
00:31:26,110 --> 00:31:27,430
Speaker 6: There's a bathtub full of trust.

575
00:31:28,110 --> 00:31:31,550
Speaker 7: And, you know, life happens in some of that water

576
00:31:31,710 --> 00:31:35,010
Speaker 7: that fills the bathtub, which represents the trust, gets sloshed out.

577
00:31:35,150 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 7: But when something like infidelity happens or deception, like what

578
00:31:39,630 --> 00:31:44,100
Speaker 7: you were describing with your friend, the water gets drained

579
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:44,700
Speaker 7: all the way out.

580
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 6: I mean, there may be a little bit in the bottom,

581
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 6: but it's gone. Okay.

582
00:31:48,860 --> 00:31:49,060
Speaker 1: Right.

583
00:31:49,580 --> 00:31:53,020
Speaker 7: Too many people think that what you do is you say,

584
00:31:53,140 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 7: I'm so sorry, I'll never do it again. And then

585
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 7: that turns on the faucet and it fills up the bathtub.

586
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,510
Speaker 7: But that is not what happens. What happens is that

587
00:32:03,590 --> 00:32:06,970
Speaker 7: bathtub gets filled up one tablespoon at a time.

588
00:32:07,570 --> 00:32:08,930
Speaker 1: Oh, wow. Okay.

589
00:32:09,570 --> 00:32:11,310
Speaker 6: One tablespoon. And what does that look like?

590
00:32:11,930 --> 00:32:15,130
Speaker 7: That looks like when I would talk about my hurt

591
00:32:15,230 --> 00:32:17,810
Speaker 7: or my pain. Like I can remember driving by a

592
00:32:17,870 --> 00:32:20,780
Speaker 7: hotel that I knew... I had found receipts for and

593
00:32:20,820 --> 00:32:23,910
Speaker 7: I knew that they had stayed up. When I drove

594
00:32:23,950 --> 00:32:27,430
Speaker 7: by that hotel, which is very near our house, one

595
00:32:27,490 --> 00:32:30,130
Speaker 7: time we were in the car together and I said, oh,

596
00:32:30,190 --> 00:32:32,410
Speaker 7: that was really hard to drive by that hotel today.

597
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,500
Speaker 7: And Mark reached over and grabbed my hand and he said,

598
00:32:36,540 --> 00:32:39,979
Speaker 7: I'm so sorry I've ever given you any reason to

599
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,100
Speaker 7: hurt driving by that hotel.

600
00:32:42,700 --> 00:32:43,740
Speaker 6: Will you please forgive me?

601
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,590
Speaker 7: And I said, yes, absolutely.

602
00:32:46,930 --> 00:32:47,330
Speaker 6: Right there.

603
00:32:47,630 --> 00:32:52,140
Speaker 7: Tablespoon of The next day we drove by it. And

604
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,850
Speaker 7: that day I was really angry over the amount of

605
00:32:56,010 --> 00:33:00,750
Speaker 7: money he misspent. So I said that, wow, today when

606
00:33:00,770 --> 00:33:03,710
Speaker 7: we drove by that, I'm reminded of how much money

607
00:33:03,750 --> 00:33:04,390
Speaker 7: you misspent.

608
00:33:04,970 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 6: And he reached over and he did the exact same thing.

609
00:33:08,660 --> 00:33:12,060
Speaker 7: And every time there were those kind of things that

610
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,100
Speaker 7: would happen, he would be running late, but he would

611
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 7: call me and say, I'm running behind. He opened up

612
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,709
Speaker 7: his phone. Those are tablespoons, sometimes half cups of water.

613
00:33:22,770 --> 00:33:25,990
Speaker 2: You could check his text messages or whatever.

614
00:33:26,330 --> 00:33:26,650
Speaker 6: Right.

615
00:33:26,670 --> 00:33:27,130
Speaker 1: Emails.

616
00:33:27,290 --> 00:33:27,570
Speaker 3: Right.

617
00:33:28,030 --> 00:33:28,850
Speaker 6: You have all of those.

618
00:33:29,030 --> 00:33:30,390
Speaker 5: Everything. Tablespoon.

619
00:33:30,470 --> 00:33:30,710
Speaker 1: Right.

620
00:33:30,750 --> 00:33:32,170
Speaker 5: Tablespoon. Tablespoon.

621
00:33:32,210 --> 00:33:33,690
Speaker 6: Tablespoon. Tablespoon.

622
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 2: I didn't.

623
00:33:35,140 --> 00:33:40,980
Speaker 1: I I had always previously been a silent man, but

624
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:44,420
Speaker 1: simmering like I just kept my mouth shut because I

625
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:48,020
Speaker 1: didn't want the argument. And what I did was I

626
00:33:48,100 --> 00:33:51,620
Speaker 1: postured or set Jill up to be the policeman of

627
00:33:51,660 --> 00:33:55,700
Speaker 1: my life. And that wasn't appropriate. But I was ticked

628
00:33:55,810 --> 00:34:00,470
Speaker 1: because she was policing my life. And then when on

629
00:34:00,590 --> 00:34:05,430
Speaker 1: surrender day, I realized I need to start voicing. I

630
00:34:05,470 --> 00:34:08,270
Speaker 1: need to get out in front of this. And so.

631
00:34:08,590 --> 00:34:10,050
Speaker 6: So I didn't need to be the police.

632
00:34:10,370 --> 00:34:11,870
Speaker 1: No, I didn't want her to be.

633
00:34:12,090 --> 00:34:14,549
Speaker 6: He did what we call pushing accountability.

634
00:34:14,750 --> 00:34:14,950
Speaker 1: Right.

635
00:34:15,210 --> 00:34:17,930
Speaker 6: I didn't have to pull accountability. He pushed it to me.

636
00:34:18,180 --> 00:34:18,390
Speaker 2: Right.

637
00:34:18,820 --> 00:34:21,540
Speaker 1: So if I was running late, I would contact Jill.

638
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,420
Speaker 1: If I got a phone number from the area code

639
00:34:25,700 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: of the person that I'd had the affair with, I

640
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: wouldn't answer it. I wouldn't listen to the voicemail. I

641
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 1: would get with Jill and say, hey, I got a

642
00:34:34,460 --> 00:34:38,219
Speaker 1: number or a phone call from this area code. Will

643
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:42,500
Speaker 1: you listen with me and just make sure it's not

644
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:48,390
Speaker 1: this other person? And so Wow. We, I did everything

645
00:34:48,469 --> 00:34:52,969
Speaker 1: I could to be honest and open and very tender

646
00:34:53,090 --> 00:34:57,770
Speaker 1: and compassionate to every question that Jill asked, no matter what.

647
00:34:58,300 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 6: And it didn't matter if I asked the question 10

648
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:01,420
Speaker 6: times or a hundred.

649
00:35:03,060 --> 00:35:06,980
Speaker 7: And that's where a lot of people struggle is that they,

650
00:35:07,540 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 7: they get, they're like, I've already asked that.

651
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 6: When is this going to be done?

652
00:35:10,780 --> 00:35:15,180
Speaker 7: And right there, drains more water out of the bathtub.

653
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:17,340
Speaker 1: Oh, I can see that.

654
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 2: Because you kind of feel like, am I going to

655
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:20,220
Speaker 2: be on the hook forever?

656
00:35:21,300 --> 00:35:21,940
Speaker 3: Right.

657
00:35:22,140 --> 00:35:23,180
Speaker 5: And what's the answer to that?

658
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 2: No.

659
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,370
Speaker 7: You're not going to be on the hook. Because what

660
00:35:28,430 --> 00:35:31,810
Speaker 7: happened is those questions and those comments and those hurts,

661
00:35:32,850 --> 00:35:37,290
Speaker 7: they got, as he handled them well, they got farther

662
00:35:37,330 --> 00:35:40,310
Speaker 7: and farther, those conversations got farther and farther apart.

663
00:35:40,450 --> 00:35:42,150
Speaker 6: Oh, interesting. He's restrained.

664
00:35:42,860 --> 00:35:47,259
Speaker 7: He's restoring my trust over time. And so certainly in

665
00:35:47,300 --> 00:35:49,860
Speaker 7: the first two to three months, you know, we're talking

666
00:35:49,900 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 7: about it a lot. And then I'm realizing, okay, he's

667
00:35:54,660 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 7: really like becoming different. And we still talked about it

668
00:35:58,950 --> 00:36:00,870
Speaker 7: in the next two to three months, but it was,

669
00:36:01,050 --> 00:36:02,489
Speaker 7: those were further apart.

670
00:36:03,130 --> 00:36:06,649
Speaker 1: We did have to, because I'd been in that relationship

671
00:36:06,750 --> 00:36:11,330
Speaker 1: almost a year. There were important dates along the way

672
00:36:11,469 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: where I had, broken trust her parents had a got

673
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 1: all the kids together for a week long trip for

674
00:36:22,380 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 1: their 50th wedding anniversary and I was in the midst

675
00:36:26,340 --> 00:36:29,260
Speaker 1: of an affair so I wasn't really.

676
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,450
Speaker 7: Present right and I didn't know that and this is

677
00:36:32,489 --> 00:36:36,129
Speaker 7: another piece that has to happen when you're rebuilding trust

678
00:36:37,030 --> 00:36:40,270
Speaker 7: he knew what the last year had looked like I

679
00:36:40,310 --> 00:36:45,549
Speaker 7: didn't yeah You see, so when we went on that

680
00:36:45,610 --> 00:36:49,950
Speaker 7: trip with my parents, he kept excusing himself and saying

681
00:36:49,989 --> 00:36:51,850
Speaker 7: that the guys at work needed him.

682
00:36:52,910 --> 00:36:54,190
Speaker 6: But that wasn't what was happening.

683
00:36:54,210 --> 00:36:54,410
Speaker 2: Sure.

684
00:36:55,260 --> 00:36:58,540
Speaker 7: So that's part of also what has to happen is

685
00:36:58,620 --> 00:37:03,460
Speaker 7: with disclosure, which is something that we often help couples

686
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 7: walk through.

687
00:37:04,140 --> 00:37:08,170
Speaker 6: We do marriage intensives. A couple comes for the weekends.

688
00:37:08,469 --> 00:37:10,430
Speaker 7: And we do them for people who just feel like

689
00:37:10,450 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 7: they have distance in their marriage, but we also do

690
00:37:12,390 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 7: it for people that are struggling with rebuilding trust. And

691
00:37:16,140 --> 00:37:19,879
Speaker 7: part of disclosure is you're filling in the gaps for

692
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 7: your partner so that now you both know the same story.

693
00:37:25,700 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 7: And then it's not a once and done apology and

694
00:37:32,100 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 7: asking for forgiveness. It's 150 apologies and asking for forgiveness

695
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,750
Speaker 7: for things like, I'm so sorry that I was dishonest

696
00:37:43,010 --> 00:37:47,190
Speaker 7: at your parents' 50th. I'm sorry that I wasn't fully present.

697
00:37:48,010 --> 00:37:52,170
Speaker 7: I see now how that's hurt you, and I sincerely

698
00:37:52,270 --> 00:37:54,410
Speaker 7: ask for your forgiveness.

699
00:37:54,430 --> 00:37:54,489
Speaker 3: Wow.

700
00:37:54,840 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 2: I'm going to ask an incredibly delicate question. And I

701
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:01,940
Speaker 2: have to say this right because.

702
00:38:03,550 --> 00:38:06,870
Speaker 5: the affair was entirely, Mark, on you.

703
00:38:07,810 --> 00:38:08,070
Speaker 3: Right.

704
00:38:08,570 --> 00:38:09,090
Speaker 1: Entirely.

705
00:38:09,450 --> 00:38:10,109
Speaker 6: Entirely.

706
00:38:10,130 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 2: It was your choice, and you had to rebuild that trust. Yet, Jill,

707
00:38:17,380 --> 00:38:20,760
Speaker 2: you heard God say, you aren't always so lovable either.

708
00:38:20,780 --> 00:38:22,180
Speaker 5: Right?

709
00:38:22,380 --> 00:38:27,460
Speaker 2: And you heard and you recognized that you had contributed

710
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:32,740
Speaker 2: to some of the destruction. None of that excuses what happened.

711
00:38:34,070 --> 00:38:38,069
Speaker 2: But is there any rebuilding on your side that had

712
00:38:38,090 --> 00:38:40,290
Speaker 2: to happen? I hate to even say that out loud

713
00:38:40,410 --> 00:38:42,630
Speaker 2: because people are going to say, you're just a gang.

714
00:38:42,670 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 5: I'm like, no, I just need to ask.

715
00:38:44,370 --> 00:38:45,190
Speaker 1: And blame the victim.

716
00:38:45,370 --> 00:38:47,529
Speaker 5: Yeah, I just need to ask, how did that work

717
00:38:47,590 --> 00:38:48,290
Speaker 5: on your side?

718
00:38:48,930 --> 00:38:49,509
Speaker 6: Absolutely.

719
00:38:49,550 --> 00:38:52,379
Speaker 7: And I'm so glad you asked that. Sometimes I bring

720
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,580
Speaker 7: that up and I had to rebuild his trust.

721
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 6: I'm going to get angry.

722
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 5: Emails for the next month.

723
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 6: I know you are, but I know that.

724
00:38:58,739 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: Just forward them and we'll respond.

725
00:39:00,739 --> 00:39:06,180
Speaker 6: Yeah, we get it. No, I had to rebuild his trust.

726
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:06,540
Speaker 1: Right.

727
00:39:07,340 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 6: Not my, my bathtub wasn't as empty as his.

728
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:11,879
Speaker 1: No.

729
00:39:12,180 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 6: Okay.

730
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 7: I didn't. I, but I had been, I'd had a

731
00:39:16,660 --> 00:39:22,010
Speaker 7: critical spirit. I had misused my.

732
00:39:21,910 --> 00:39:25,090
Speaker 6: Strength in our marriage. Okay.

733
00:39:26,170 --> 00:39:29,049
Speaker 7: I don't apologize for being a strong woman, but I

734
00:39:29,090 --> 00:39:33,420
Speaker 7: had sometimes misused. my strength in our marriage and so

735
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,260
Speaker 7: I also had to rebuild his trust I had to

736
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,839
Speaker 7: because he didn't want to come back into that dynamic

737
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:47,930
Speaker 7: no either and that wasn't healthy And so we were

738
00:39:48,070 --> 00:39:50,770
Speaker 7: both on a journey to rebuild each other's trust.

739
00:39:50,830 --> 00:39:51,410
Speaker 3: Interesting.

740
00:39:51,610 --> 00:39:55,330
Speaker 7: Mark had more to rebuild because the bathtub was empty

741
00:39:55,390 --> 00:39:55,710
Speaker 7: for him.

742
00:39:55,750 --> 00:39:58,490
Speaker 6: Mine was, let's say, half empty.

743
00:40:00,170 --> 00:40:02,390
Speaker 7: But we don't get to look at the empty one

744
00:40:02,430 --> 00:40:05,290
Speaker 7: and not look at the half empty one and go, well, look,

745
00:40:05,350 --> 00:40:08,730
Speaker 7: he was the bigger problem. No, we both contributed to

746
00:40:08,750 --> 00:40:13,590
Speaker 7: the mess. He could have responded to the mess in

747
00:40:13,630 --> 00:40:18,549
Speaker 7: a way that is different than infidelity. Not cool the

748
00:40:18,590 --> 00:40:19,870
Speaker 7: way he chose to respond.

749
00:40:20,370 --> 00:40:25,260
Speaker 1: We actually, too, on YouTube, we have, is it a four-week?

750
00:40:25,300 --> 00:40:27,940
Speaker 6: Yeah, we did a four-session podcast.

751
00:40:28,100 --> 00:40:30,380
Speaker 1: About the affair. Oh, good.

752
00:40:30,460 --> 00:40:33,540
Speaker 6: And the process for rebuilding trust.

753
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:34,390
Speaker 1: Yeah.

754
00:40:34,469 --> 00:40:36,370
Speaker 5: We will put that in our show notes.

755
00:40:37,110 --> 00:40:42,009
Speaker 1: Okay, cool. Well, and so one thing that I was

756
00:40:42,090 --> 00:40:45,130
Speaker 1: committed to is I was going to take full responsibility

757
00:40:45,660 --> 00:40:51,410
Speaker 1: responsibility for my affair. I did take full responsibility and

758
00:40:51,530 --> 00:40:56,510
Speaker 1: I was determined not to say anything that would move

759
00:40:57,210 --> 00:41:02,010
Speaker 1: my responsibility to Jill. So I never said, if you

760
00:41:02,070 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been this, I wouldn't have done this.

761
00:41:06,420 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 5: That would drain the bathtub further.

762
00:41:07,940 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 2: I would think you're not taking responsibility. Yeah.

763
00:41:12,260 --> 00:41:12,580
Speaker 3: Right.

764
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 2: Right.

765
00:41:13,500 --> 00:41:19,170
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I remember, Mark, Jill, this is to you, Jill,

766
00:41:20,310 --> 00:41:23,770
Speaker 3: watching an interview with a megachurch pastor. This is probably

767
00:41:23,770 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 3: 30 plus years ago. And this megachurch pastor had had

768
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 3: an affair with a member of the congregation.

769
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,230
Speaker 4: And he was devastated about it.

770
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 2: He was.

771
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:40,739
Speaker 3: Obviously, his wife was devastated, too. And they were both

772
00:41:40,780 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 3: being interviewed, the husband and the wife. And she said, yeah,

773
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,140
Speaker 3: you know, during those months when he stepped away from

774
00:41:48,180 --> 00:41:52,630
Speaker 3: the ministry, I felt like my role, I was trying

775
00:41:52,710 --> 00:41:53,630
Speaker 3: to help.

776
00:41:53,410 --> 00:41:54,610
Speaker 4: Him come back.

777
00:41:55,170 --> 00:41:59,070
Speaker 3: And he was so devastated by his actions, all of

778
00:41:59,150 --> 00:42:00,310
Speaker 3: the things there.

779
00:42:00,930 --> 00:42:03,049
Speaker 4: And this went on for months and months.

780
00:42:03,210 --> 00:42:05,430
Speaker 3: And I was there telling him that God had not

781
00:42:05,489 --> 00:42:08,530
Speaker 3: written him off, that, you know, God has a plan,

782
00:42:08,550 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 3: all of these things, and that I'd forgiven him. And

783
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 3: then one day, six, seven months later, I heard him

784
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 3: out in the garage whistling. And I went, hey, he's happy.

785
00:42:23,420 --> 00:42:25,820
Speaker 3: He doesn't get to be happy.

786
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,500
Speaker 4: Do you realize what I've gone through?

787
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,910
Speaker 3: And she said, all these feelings came rushing in like

788
00:42:33,489 --> 00:42:37,410
Speaker 3: I have been caring for him. He was the, in

789
00:42:37,469 --> 00:42:42,020
Speaker 3: this situation, the guilty party. And I've cared for him. Yes,

790
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:43,700
Speaker 3: we've been working, rebuilding trust.

791
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 4: And all those things. But all of a sudden, I'm

792
00:42:46,300 --> 00:42:48,490
Speaker 4: feeling like I'm not.

793
00:42:48,410 --> 00:42:54,230
Speaker 3: Real happy now that he may be feeling free of this.

794
00:42:55,450 --> 00:43:00,270
Speaker 3: How did you prevent yourself from all of a sudden

795
00:43:00,310 --> 00:43:04,230
Speaker 3: getting resentful that now he's.

796
00:43:04,450 --> 00:43:05,490
Speaker 5: He's getting off the hook.

797
00:43:05,590 --> 00:43:10,310
Speaker 4: He's restored. We want restoration, but we want a little

798
00:43:10,350 --> 00:43:14,930
Speaker 4: pain too. Well, at least the Jeffs of the world want.

799
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:16,989
Speaker 3: That.

800
00:43:17,030 --> 00:43:18,090
Speaker 1: That's a great question.

801
00:43:18,530 --> 00:43:19,649
Speaker 6: It really is.

802
00:43:20,150 --> 00:43:26,790
Speaker 7: I think that, you know, during our separation, I had

803
00:43:26,830 --> 00:43:28,230
Speaker 7: to do a lot of heart work.

804
00:43:29,550 --> 00:43:35,590
Speaker 6: I really had to. I did. I grieved a lot.

805
00:43:36,090 --> 00:43:36,870
Speaker 6: I grieved.

806
00:43:37,770 --> 00:43:42,930
Speaker 7: I think sometimes we pass over grief. And it sounds

807
00:43:42,989 --> 00:43:50,819
Speaker 7: like she may have passed over grief. And then really

808
00:43:50,860 --> 00:43:54,899
Speaker 7: what was happening is she had this delayed grief, which

809
00:43:55,000 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 7: then became, because it stayed in there, it probably became resentment,

810
00:44:00,739 --> 00:44:05,850
Speaker 7: inner resentment. And so I just learned, I would say,

811
00:44:05,870 --> 00:44:14,230
Speaker 7: during that season, And my desire was for him to

812
00:44:14,570 --> 00:44:16,610
Speaker 7: return to his God and.

813
00:44:18,230 --> 00:44:20,989
Speaker 6: Not, you know, I.

814
00:44:21,030 --> 00:44:29,739
Speaker 7: Feel like he, I wanted to see him in a fulfilled,

815
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:34,870
Speaker 7: happy place again. And maybe it's because we'd been through

816
00:44:34,890 --> 00:44:37,730
Speaker 7: hell for a year at that point, and I was

817
00:44:37,770 --> 00:44:39,050
Speaker 7: ready for both of us to be happy.

818
00:44:40,330 --> 00:44:42,739
Speaker 6: You know, maybe it was that. But I think the

819
00:44:42,780 --> 00:44:43,860
Speaker 6: other piece is.

820
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,660
Speaker 7: I learned a lot about grief during that season.

821
00:44:48,060 --> 00:44:52,770
Speaker 6: And if we don't grieve, it leaks out in other ways.

822
00:44:53,270 --> 00:44:53,390
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

823
00:44:53,870 --> 00:44:57,710
Speaker 7: And my guess is that some part of that dynamic

824
00:44:57,750 --> 00:44:58,810
Speaker 7: was playing out for her.

825
00:44:58,830 --> 00:45:01,410
Speaker 2: That is so, oh my gosh. I could talk to

826
00:45:01,430 --> 00:45:03,529
Speaker 2: you guys forever about this. And we only have like

827
00:45:03,630 --> 00:45:06,770
Speaker 2: two minutes. And I just have to tell everybody, we

828
00:45:07,110 --> 00:45:09,350
Speaker 2: started our podcast a year and a half ago. And

829
00:45:09,390 --> 00:45:11,370
Speaker 2: I've been wanting to get these guys on and talk

830
00:45:11,390 --> 00:45:13,009
Speaker 2: about this for a year and a half. And I

831
00:45:13,050 --> 00:45:15,380
Speaker 2: am so glad we finally made it happen.

832
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,610
Speaker 3: And one of the other things is you just kind of,

833
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 3: you briefly kind of passed over that you guys lead

834
00:45:22,430 --> 00:45:27,980
Speaker 3: weekend marriage intensives for couples. Just to our listeners, this

835
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 3: past week we spent with Mark and Jill and some

836
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,500
Speaker 3: other friends who are in marriage ministry. And it was

837
00:45:34,540 --> 00:45:37,900
Speaker 3: kind of like a little mini retreat for these four

838
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 3: or five couples.

839
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:40,060
Speaker 4: And it was really sweet.

840
00:45:40,739 --> 00:45:45,330
Speaker 3: And we learned something During that time that I did

841
00:45:45,390 --> 00:45:45,870
Speaker 3: not know.

842
00:45:45,890 --> 00:45:46,350
Speaker 6: Okay, hold on.

843
00:45:46,410 --> 00:45:47,649
Speaker 5: They didn't hardly know.

844
00:45:47,830 --> 00:45:51,020
Speaker 2: Like, I was looking at their website and going, what

845
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:52,819
Speaker 2: do you need to improve? And I'm like, do you

846
00:45:52,860 --> 00:45:57,540
Speaker 2: have any numbers about the percentages of marriages that, you know,

847
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 2: are still together, that, you know, haven't gone to divorce,

848
00:46:00,739 --> 00:46:03,320
Speaker 2: even though they come in close to divorce?

849
00:46:03,380 --> 00:46:03,620
Speaker 1: Right.

850
00:46:03,739 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 4: And you guys said... And you guys kind of shrugged.

851
00:46:05,700 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 6: And you're like, yeah, yeah, we do.

852
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:07,940
Speaker 5: We have those numbers.

853
00:46:08,390 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 4: And first off, it was like, well, you've done... Hundreds

854
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 4: of these.

855
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:16,180
Speaker 6: We've done over, yeah.

856
00:46:16,300 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 1: Over 200. Almost 200.

857
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 6: Over 200. Yeah.

858
00:46:17,820 --> 00:46:20,009
Speaker 4: Give us the numbers that shocked us.

859
00:46:21,950 --> 00:46:22,210
Speaker 1: Yeah.

860
00:46:22,270 --> 00:46:30,670
Speaker 7: Well, our rate of success, we have 98% of the

861
00:46:30,710 --> 00:46:35,660
Speaker 7: couples that have done our marriage 2.0 intensives are still married.

862
00:46:36,469 --> 00:46:38,989
Speaker 4: And it's just everybody.

863
00:46:39,030 --> 00:46:40,870
Speaker 5: Everybody in the room was like, thanks be to God.

864
00:46:40,930 --> 00:46:42,730
Speaker 5: And why isn't that on your website?

865
00:46:44,050 --> 00:46:45,010
Speaker 6: I know.

866
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 1: I know.

867
00:46:48,260 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 2: That is such hope.

868
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:55,940
Speaker 3: And, and, and, and I'm sure in those intensives, you've

869
00:46:56,020 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 3: met couples who are really hanging on just by their fingers.

870
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 7: I mean, some come and they're separated and they sleep

871
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:08,739
Speaker 7: in different bedrooms here. You know, and they come in

872
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 7: a really, really difficult place. But we're not what we

873
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,739
Speaker 7: do is we lead them through a framework that restored

874
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:24,060
Speaker 7: our marriage. And so it's not just philosophy that somebody

875
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:26,500
Speaker 7: has read in a book for us. It is we

876
00:47:26,540 --> 00:47:31,100
Speaker 7: know the difference it made to do these things, to

877
00:47:31,219 --> 00:47:34,439
Speaker 7: work through these things. And so we take them through

878
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,410
Speaker 7: that process. We love that we stay in the game

879
00:47:37,450 --> 00:47:41,170
Speaker 7: with them. Like we, you know, we, we love the

880
00:47:41,210 --> 00:47:45,150
Speaker 7: intensive environment because I mean, I'm not anti-counseling. It was

881
00:47:45,190 --> 00:47:47,509
Speaker 7: a part of our healing, but you start and you

882
00:47:47,530 --> 00:47:49,030
Speaker 7: stop and you start and you stop and you start

883
00:47:49,050 --> 00:47:51,859
Speaker 7: and you stop. And the intensive environment lets us stay

884
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 7: in the zone, keep connecting the dots, keep understanding the dynamics.

885
00:47:57,060 --> 00:48:01,460
Speaker 7: And we just find it very rewarding to do that.

886
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:05,230
Speaker 1: We do that. The intensive is with one client. couple only.

887
00:48:05,390 --> 00:48:05,549
Speaker 3: Yep.

888
00:48:05,670 --> 00:48:07,270
Speaker 6: We do not do a group intensive.

889
00:48:07,390 --> 00:48:11,330
Speaker 1: Because we want to focus on the couple. 100% attention

890
00:48:13,489 --> 00:48:19,850
Speaker 1: to move and navigate through this framework. And man, the

891
00:48:19,890 --> 00:48:23,570
Speaker 1: God stories we've seen is just incredible.

892
00:48:24,050 --> 00:48:28,050
Speaker 2: And that's to me the issue here is for everybody

893
00:48:28,110 --> 00:48:30,850
Speaker 2: to know whatever it is that you have to rebuild

894
00:48:30,890 --> 00:48:35,240
Speaker 2: trust about, God is still in it and is still working. Right.

895
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,820
Speaker 5: And that hope is there.

896
00:48:37,900 --> 00:48:40,419
Speaker 2: It doesn't always work out the way we want it to.

897
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 2: But you've seen these couples that are closest to divorce,

898
00:48:44,900 --> 00:48:49,790
Speaker 2: that 98% of those couples now are still married. And

899
00:48:49,890 --> 00:48:52,130
Speaker 2: so I'm just, I know we only have like 30

900
00:48:52,130 --> 00:48:53,790
Speaker 2: seconds left before we have to.

901
00:48:53,730 --> 00:48:54,770
Speaker 6: Wrap up the podcast.

902
00:48:54,810 --> 00:48:56,730
Speaker 3: But we've got to ask the thing that we always

903
00:48:56,750 --> 00:48:57,509
Speaker 3: ask of our guests.

904
00:48:57,590 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 1: Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes.

905
00:48:58,270 --> 00:48:58,730
Speaker 6: Absolutely.

906
00:48:58,750 --> 00:49:01,530
Speaker 4: So we always, at the end of our podcast, we always.

907
00:49:02,219 --> 00:49:06,410
Speaker 3: try to leave the listener with kind of one thing

908
00:49:06,590 --> 00:49:08,910
Speaker 3: if you're going to remember one thing either of what

909
00:49:08,969 --> 00:49:12,750
Speaker 3: we've said already or of something that we didn't get

910
00:49:12,810 --> 00:49:15,839
Speaker 3: to but we want you to hold on to so

911
00:49:16,100 --> 00:49:19,660
Speaker 3: for the folks out there who may have experienced infidelity

912
00:49:20,070 --> 00:49:24,279
Speaker 3: or another type of betrayal in their marriage, is there

913
00:49:24,380 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 3: in their efforts of rebuilding that trust with their spouse,

914
00:49:28,780 --> 00:49:31,739
Speaker 3: what one thing would you want to tell them to

915
00:49:31,820 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 3: encourage them?

916
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:40,910
Speaker 1: I would encourage them with... You might be thinking there

917
00:49:40,989 --> 00:49:44,940
Speaker 1: is no hope, but the God we love and serve says,

918
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 1: I am hope. And so grab hold of hope. And

919
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,940
Speaker 1: it's totally living and doable and actionable.

920
00:49:55,340 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 4: And your story isn't over yet.

921
00:49:58,320 --> 00:49:58,660
Speaker 5: Right.

922
00:49:59,239 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 1: No.

923
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:01,780
Speaker 5: How can people find you guys?

924
00:50:02,219 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 2: Like, I don't want to cut off this podcast without

925
00:50:05,020 --> 00:50:05,739
Speaker 2: people knowing how.

926
00:50:05,660 --> 00:50:06,980
Speaker 6: To find you.

927
00:50:07,020 --> 00:50:10,690
Speaker 7: The best place would be Yeah, the podcast is great.

928
00:50:10,730 --> 00:50:17,990
Speaker 7: No More Perfect podcast. Our website is markandjill.org. Markandjill.org.

929
00:50:18,230 --> 00:50:19,169
Speaker 6: And then.

930
00:50:20,660 --> 00:50:27,900
Speaker 7: On Instagram, jillsavage.author. Facebook, jillsavage.author. We've recently been going viral

931
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 7: on Instagram because we've been doing these fun 1.0, 2.0

932
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:36,740
Speaker 7: reels and showing people. Hey, this is what happens when

933
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:38,540
Speaker 7: you're not in a healthy place.

934
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 6: This is what it looks like to be healthy. So

935
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 6: check those out.

936
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 7: And then I do want people to know we have

937
00:50:45,219 --> 00:50:51,610
Speaker 7: a we have a free rebuilding trust guide. And the

938
00:50:51,650 --> 00:50:54,950
Speaker 7: rebuilding trust guide is you can get that at rebuilding

939
00:50:54,989 --> 00:50:58,620
Speaker 7: trust dot U.S. Rebuilding trust dot us.

940
00:50:58,860 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 6: And it's a free guide.

941
00:51:00,900 --> 00:51:05,890
Speaker 7: And it will give you additional information for how to

942
00:51:05,910 --> 00:51:06,700
Speaker 7: rebuild trust.

943
00:51:07,610 --> 00:51:08,190
Speaker 5: Okay.

944
00:51:08,630 --> 00:51:11,669
Speaker 2: Well, thank you guys so much for joining us today.

945
00:51:11,730 --> 00:51:13,170
Speaker 5: I know we went a little bit over time.

946
00:51:13,330 --> 00:51:15,109
Speaker 2: And so I'm going to tell everybody, if you would

947
00:51:15,150 --> 00:51:18,290
Speaker 2: like to hear more from Mark and Jill Savage, be

948
00:51:18,390 --> 00:51:21,859
Speaker 2: sure to check out those resources and you'll find links

949
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,219
Speaker 2: to all of them in the show notes. If you

950
00:51:24,260 --> 00:51:27,299
Speaker 2: know someone who'd be encouraged by this, please share this

951
00:51:27,380 --> 00:51:29,620
Speaker 2: episode with them and share it on social media and

952
00:51:30,030 --> 00:51:31,570
Speaker 2: And if you do, be sure to tag us and

953
00:51:31,610 --> 00:51:33,210
Speaker 2: be sure to tag Mark and Jill so we can

954
00:51:33,250 --> 00:51:33,529
Speaker 2: see it.

955
00:51:33,830 --> 00:51:36,069
Speaker 5: Thank you guys so much for being with us.

956
00:51:37,950 --> 00:51:40,379
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to I Wish You Could Hear This.

957
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:44,540
Speaker 2: Remember to subscribe to our podcast. And as always, forward

958
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:47,799
Speaker 2: today's audio or video link to a friend, counselor or

959
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:54,089
Speaker 2: pastor who would be encouraged. I just want to take

960
00:51:54,130 --> 00:51:56,850
Speaker 2: a second to thank the team at Life Audio for

961
00:51:56,870 --> 00:52:00,040
Speaker 2: their partnership with us on the podcast. If you go

962
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:04,710
Speaker 2: to lifeaudio.com, you will find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts

963
00:52:04,770 --> 00:52:09,089
Speaker 2: in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting,

964
00:52:09,489 --> 00:52:09,860
Speaker 2: and more.