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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Today's episode is a powerful one. We're joined by John Seidel,

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Speaker 2: author and speaker, as he courageously shares his personal journey

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Speaker 2: detailed in his latest book, Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic Friends.

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Speaker 2: It's a raw, honest and redemptive conversation about how a

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Speaker 2: man of faith found himself battling addiction, the shame that

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Speaker 2: came with it, and what.

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Speaker 1: It took to break free.

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Speaker 2: If you or someone you love have ever struggled with

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Speaker 2: hidden pain, addiction, or the pressure to keep up appearances,

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Speaker 2: this conversation is for you. John's story is a testimony

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Speaker 2: to the power of grace, truth, and freedom found in Christ.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to your hope filled perspective with doctor Michelle bankson

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Speaker 2: where our goal is to restore hope, renew minds, and

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Speaker 2: empower listeners to live in your God given identity. I'm

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Speaker 2: delighted you've chosen to spend a few minutes of your

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Speaker 2: week with us. Today We're going to be talking about

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Speaker 2: how to break free from hidden addictions. We'll dive in

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Speaker 2: with this honest and vulnerable conversation right after a brief

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Speaker 2: word from our sponsor. The Christian community loves stories of salvation,

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Speaker 2: but often struggles with stories of sanctification, especially messy sanctification.

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Speaker 2: Today's guest, John Seidel, is breaking the stigma with a

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Speaker 2: radically vulnerable work that's not only for those struggling with

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Speaker 2: secret sins, but also for every person on a journey

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Speaker 2: to overcome nagging issues, which really is all of us.

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Speaker 2: In this episode of Your Hope Filled Perspective, we're going

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Speaker 2: to delve into one man's story about the raw and

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Speaker 2: messy details of his secret battle with addiction and how

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Speaker 2: to break free from hidden addictions. John Seidel has been

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Speaker 2: telling stories his whole life.

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Speaker 1: In fact, he's.

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Speaker 2: Written over ten thousand of them. First, after helping start

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Speaker 2: a successful news website and and he was editor in

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Speaker 2: chief of the popular nonprofit I Am Second. Now he's

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Speaker 2: the author of a new book, Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic,

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Speaker 2: a radically vulnerable story of being the Christian who became

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Speaker 2: an alcoholic and his climb out of addiction and how

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Speaker 2: others can break free from life's entanglements. He currently runs

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Speaker 2: the popular daily devotional website, The Veritas Daily, where he

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Speaker 2: writes on faith, culture, and addiction, while also completing his

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Speaker 2: master's degree in theological studies from Southwestern Seminary. He's originally

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Speaker 2: from Wisconsin. He lives in my neighborhood of Frisco, Texas

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Speaker 2: with his wife, Brett, and their children. So I'm excited

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Speaker 2: to welcome to the program, John Zeidel.

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Speaker 1: Welcome John Michelle.

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Speaker 3: Can I just like bring you around as I travel?

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Speaker 3: I mean that's like a I'm like, I want to

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Speaker 3: know that guy. Who's that guy? That's great? Love that yeah,

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Speaker 3: great introduction. I I forget about some of those things,

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Speaker 3: some of it intentionally, right, there's some things like I

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Speaker 3: just want to lead you that in the past now.

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Speaker 3: But thank you. I'm so excited to be here, John.

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Speaker 2: What I have found in over thirty years as a neuropsychologist,

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Speaker 2: in the past seven years on the podcast is that

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Speaker 2: often our stories or our ministries result from our own hurts,

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Speaker 2: our own.

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Speaker 1: Trials, or our needs.

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Speaker 2: So how is this true for you with respect to

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Speaker 2: Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Boy, I mean yeah, you talk about trials. I

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Speaker 3: think I wrote a book in twenty twenty one on

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Speaker 3: faith and mental health, and I think up until when

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Speaker 3: I wrote that book, I said, I've gone through the toughest,

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Speaker 3: toughest part of my life. And what I didn't realize

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Speaker 3: is that that was just that was just the appetizer.

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Speaker 3: And yet we prayed before we started this episode, and

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Speaker 3: you said something that I love to say, and I

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Speaker 3: don't think that's a coincidence, but that I've learned uses

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Speaker 3: these issues, these struggles for our good and his glory.

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Speaker 3: I'm a tattoo guy. I love my tattoos. And the

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Speaker 3: next one I'm going to get is Roman numerals, and

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Speaker 3: it's going to be twelve seven through ten, because I'm

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Speaker 3: not sure if you can have a life verse for

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Speaker 3: your whole life, right, I'm kind of like, but in

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Speaker 3: this season, my life verse is Second Corinthians twelve seven

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Speaker 3: through ten, and that's that's where Paul talks about the

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Speaker 3: thorn in his flesh and how the power of God

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Speaker 3: has made perfect in his weakness. And that's what I've

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Speaker 3: come to learn and understand is that these trials, which

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Speaker 3: by the way, news Flash like, I went through a

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Speaker 3: tough period. Then I went through what I would say

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Speaker 3: the toughest period in my life is and now I'm

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Speaker 3: coming out of even even in light of recovery, even

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Speaker 3: in light of finding sobriety, even in light of crawling

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Speaker 3: back to Jesus like, and we'll talk about this like,

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Speaker 3: it wasn't roses and butterflies. This I stopped drinking. And

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Speaker 3: I'm not the first one to say this. Alcohol wasn't

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Speaker 3: my problem. Alcohol was the solution to my problems. A

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Speaker 3: bad solution, but an easy one, a quick one. Right.

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Speaker 3: So now you took away my solution, and now I

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Speaker 3: had to deal with all the crud and the crap

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Speaker 3: and that everything I was using it to numb or

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Speaker 3: or escape from. And so now I'm like, I feel

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Speaker 3: like my wife and I are just getting out of

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Speaker 3: what I would now say is the hardest period of

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Speaker 3: our life. And yet God it's I can say this,

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Speaker 3: It has been faithful.

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Speaker 2: That's such an important message when we can get to

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Speaker 2: the point that we can look back on trials and recognize, yeah,

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Speaker 2: they were hard and in our own strength, we couldn't

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Speaker 2: have gotten through them. But God was faithful, and now

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Speaker 2: He's using the horrible times in your life for good.

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Speaker 2: But I want to take our listeners to the point

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Speaker 2: where you talk about what was your rock bottom or

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Speaker 2: how did you come to the end of yourself?

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Speaker 1: What did that look like?

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Speaker 3: John? Yeah, one thing I like to say before I

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Speaker 3: get to this point or before I tell this story,

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Speaker 3: and I make this clear in the book as well,

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Speaker 3: is I did have a rock bottom moment, and there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of people that do. And I know in

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Speaker 3: your work, I'm sure you've heard a lot of those stories.

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Speaker 3: I've had my own. Yeah, right, But what I want

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Speaker 3: to encourage people is that you don't have to have

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Speaker 3: a rock bottle moment in order to reevaluate your relationship

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Speaker 3: with alcohol or anything else, food, whatever, right, exercise, because

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Speaker 3: I think for so long and part of what kept

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Speaker 3: me in in the state I was in is I

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Speaker 3: played the comparison game. Well, I'm not doing that. I

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Speaker 3: don't look like that. I'm I'm not leaving home and

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Speaker 3: not coming back. Right. I wasn't a lone drinker. I

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Speaker 3: wasn't a go out and party drinker like no. I

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Speaker 3: just wanted to be home. Give me a football, give

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Speaker 3: me a football Saturday and in a case of beer,

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Speaker 3: and I'd be great. Never leave the house, be around

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Speaker 3: for the kids, be there. So I just want to

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Speaker 3: tell people, like, you're gonna hear this story, and I

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Speaker 3: hope some people see themselves in it. But if you don't,

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Speaker 3: don't think, well, my I'm good because, as I say,

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Speaker 3: anything that is misordered is disordered, especially for Christians, right,

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Speaker 3: So it's not a it's not about quantity necessarily. That

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Speaker 3: can be a factor, for sure, But if you anything

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Speaker 3: that you put on the throne of your life, your kids,

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Speaker 3: your husband, your wife, your job, anything that occupies a

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Speaker 3: place in your life that is misordered is disordered. So

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Speaker 3: that said, I talked about publishing a book in twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty one on faith in mental health, and I had

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Speaker 3: a friend who called me right as the book was

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Speaker 3: coming out and he said, Johnny, you need to be

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Speaker 3: careful and I said, okay. He said, you're going to

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Speaker 3: publish your book and you're going to do all the press,

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Speaker 3: and that's going to all end, and you're going to

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Speaker 3: feel likely you'll feel a little empty for the last

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Speaker 3: two years, especially when you go the traditional publishing route,

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Speaker 3: which I have. The process is long, right, it's long.

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Speaker 3: So two years is very normal from when you sign

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Speaker 3: the contract and start writing to when the book comes out.

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Speaker 3: And I thought, I'm right, I'm writing a book on

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Speaker 3: faith and mental health, you know what I mean? Like

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Speaker 3: I'm good, Like thanks, thanks, but I'll be fine and

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Speaker 3: sure enough about a month, month and a half after

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Speaker 3: the book comes out, I just I realized I had

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Speaker 3: all these unexposed expectations. And so, yeah, the book did well,

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Speaker 3: and it was a top one hundred book on all

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Speaker 3: of Amazon and bestseller on these lists, but they didn't

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Speaker 3: make the New York Times bestseller list, you know, like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: Publishers Weekly did a review, but Wall Street Journal didn't.

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Speaker 3: And I just the enemy took that and just started

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Speaker 3: feeding lies to me. Lies by the way that we're

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Speaker 3: based on traumas that went back thirty years, you know,

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Speaker 3: about not being enough, about not being seen, about being abandoned,

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Speaker 3: about what it looks like to be safe. And you're

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Speaker 3: like all that from a book. I'm like, yeah, the

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Speaker 3: devil's crafty.

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Speaker 1: You are preaching to the choir.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I get it.

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Speaker 2: As a traditionally published author, I resonate with all that

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Speaker 2: you're saying. And he is very crafty, and he knows

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Speaker 2: where our weakness is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, right, He's not going to hit you where you're strong, right,

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Speaker 3: you know. And so I started sliding into the guy

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Speaker 3: who wrote the book on faith and mental health and

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Speaker 3: gave people the tools and all that stuff. Started sliding

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Speaker 3: back into a depression. And then on top of that,

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Speaker 3: two weeks before Christmas. I had started my own business

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Speaker 3: at this point, using just my background in digital media

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Speaker 3: and news and writing to do consulting, and I had

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Speaker 3: a massive client and I was making the most money

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Speaker 3: of my life. They were they were paying for the

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Speaker 3: majority of my time I was there. They're pretty much

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Speaker 3: my only client. And two weeks before Christmas, they came

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Speaker 3: to me and said, hey, we're kind of, you know, reevaluating,

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Speaker 3: things going to go in a different direction. And so

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Speaker 3: you know, you're a contractor, and so your contact's going

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Speaker 3: to be done at the end of the year. And

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Speaker 3: you know, anyone who's in you don't have to be

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Speaker 3: in consulting or contract work to know that two weeks

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Speaker 3: before Christmas trying to find new clients is just like, mean,

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Speaker 3: good luck, right, and and so that hit me really hard.

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Speaker 3: Fast forward to the spring I had I had another

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Speaker 3: client that I kind of then built up and then

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Speaker 3: they pulled out. And then my son starts limping around

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Speaker 3: four years old at the time, and we take him

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Speaker 3: to the doctrine. We find out and he's got a

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Speaker 3: tumor in his shin, and we do find out by

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Speaker 3: the grace of God that that is benign. But that

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Speaker 3: whole process just created so much anxiety and pain and questions.

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Speaker 3: And then you fast forward, you know you're going to

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Speaker 3: the fall of twenty twenty two. I had a really,

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Speaker 3: really dear friend at the time who he came down

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Speaker 3: with a severe bout of depression, and then we're just

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Speaker 3: kind of this like depression tornado all throughout that. I

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Speaker 3: knew the truth, I knew what I should do. I

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Speaker 3: had the skills, I had the knowledge, and yet and yet,

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Speaker 3: like you said, the Devil's crafty, I had always had

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Speaker 3: an up and down relationship with alcohol. I grew up

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Speaker 3: in Wisconsin, which is just like beer trailers at church picnics,

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Speaker 3: which is not an exaggeration, and so there, I grew

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Speaker 3: up in a culture of drinking, and I had gone

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Speaker 3: through bouts of heavy drinking at times. But when all

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Speaker 3: of this hit, I just turned to easy solution. It's

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Speaker 3: hard to go on a three mile run when your

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Speaker 3: mental health is suffering. It's hard to commit to weekly

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Speaker 3: therapy sessions. It's more expensive, right, It's cheaper to go

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Speaker 3: get a nineteen dollars bottle of mid level bourbon and

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Speaker 3: sitting in front of the TV and watch something fun

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Speaker 3: or funny or a game and just kind of get

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Speaker 3: lost and again, and I justified all this, you know,

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Speaker 3: used all just I'm not going out, I'm not cheating

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Speaker 3: on my wife. I'm not like all this stuff. And slowly,

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Speaker 3: from the fall of twenty twenty one till the spring

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Speaker 3: of twenty twenty three, one bourbon to night turned into two,

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Speaker 3: turned into four, turned into five, and then the pumpkin

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Speaker 3: beers are out. It's fall, and man, those are great,

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Speaker 3: and then you start adding those, and before you know it,

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Speaker 3: you're cutting back on family activities. Your wife wants to

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Speaker 3: go to the movies, but you're already three bourbons deep

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Speaker 3: on a Saturday afternoon because you started watching the game

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Speaker 3: at eleven. So you're making up excuses because you know

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Speaker 3: you can't drive drunk, so well, you know, I'm just

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Speaker 3: not feeling well, you know, or whatever it is. And

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Speaker 3: that just became my life until maybe twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 3: My wife and I were on an anniversary trip. Our

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Speaker 3: anniversaries around Memorial Day, and so we always try to

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Speaker 3: play kind of like a fun just us because we

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Speaker 3: have a built in vacation, and we decided months earlier

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Speaker 3: we were going to go to Miami, and I had

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Speaker 3: never been, and so my wife gets us, finds us

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Speaker 3: a great deal on a hotel, like right down on

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Speaker 3: South Beach, and so two weeks before this and this

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Speaker 3: is just the life of an addict. Right two weeks

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Speaker 3: before this, I was really convicted, and I said, I'm

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Speaker 3: going to stop drinking. And so I stopped drinking. Two

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Speaker 3: weeks later, it's time for the trip, and I go, well,

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Speaker 3: I stopped for two weeks. Someone who stops for two

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Speaker 3: weeks doesn't have a problem. They're not really enslaved to it.

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Speaker 3: I didn't get the sheakes like, I can do it.

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Speaker 3: I'm good. I'll just treat myself. I'll be I'll be

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Speaker 3: moderate about it. And so we can go to we

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Speaker 3: go to Miami. I'm drinking a little bit, and there's

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Speaker 3: one night in particular where my wife says, you know,

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Speaker 3: I just kind of want a night in. She's a reader.

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Speaker 3: She says, I just kind of want to like relax

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Speaker 3: on the balcony and read. She's like, you can do whatever.

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Speaker 3: And again, I'm not a go out drinker. And I said, well,

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Speaker 3: I'm just going to go down to the hotel bar.

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Speaker 3: I'll have some appetizers. I'll have a couple of beers.

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Speaker 3: And you know, there was like NBA playoffs and hockey

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Speaker 3: playoffs on, like this is perfect. And as I'm leaving

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Speaker 3: the hotel room, she looks at me and she says,

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Speaker 3: don't get drunk. Promise me you won't get drunk. See

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Speaker 3: because by this time, you know, she didn't know the

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Speaker 3: depths of it. And I was hiding aspect, but it

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Speaker 3: was bleeding over, and I said, I'm not going to

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Speaker 3: just very dismissively, I'm not going to get drunk. It's fine.

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Speaker 3: And and Michelle, I had every intention not to get drunk.

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Speaker 3: I can say that honestly. So I go down to

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Speaker 3: the bar and pretty quickly, I mean one gen martini

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Speaker 3: turns into I don't know, And by twelve one in

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Speaker 3: the morning, I'm paying a triple digit bar tab and

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Speaker 3: I'm like, I am drunk. I cannot go back up

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Speaker 3: to the room. And no matter what they tell you,

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Speaker 3: the sciences is that the only thing that can sort

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Speaker 3: you up is time. You can eat all the bread

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Speaker 3: you want, but it's time. And so I thought, drunk

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Speaker 3: John has this great idea. Well, I'm gonna just walk

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Speaker 3: down to the beach. I'm just gonna sit on the

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Speaker 3: beach and I'm just gonna wait until I'm more sober,

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Speaker 3: and then I'll go back into the room. I don't

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Speaker 3: know how long is this gonna take. Maybe I'll watch

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Speaker 3: the sunder, I don't know. But so I stumble down

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Speaker 3: to the beach and pretty quickly I have to go

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Speaker 3: to the bathroom. And what people may not realize about

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Speaker 3: South Beach, Miami on one in the morning, twelve one

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Speaker 3: in the morning, there's a lot more people down there

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Speaker 3: than you think, doing a lot more things than you

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Speaker 3: would think. There's funky smells, and there's just all kinds

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Speaker 3: of stuff. And so I'm like, well, I can't I

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Speaker 3: can't make it back to the hotel. What am I

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Speaker 3: gonna do? And so I look in front of me

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Speaker 3: is the world's biggest toilet bowl, and I think, okay,

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Speaker 3: I'll just go into the ocean, go to the bathroom,

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Speaker 3: and come out. So, with all my clothes on, I

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Speaker 3: didn't have trunks on, fully dressed, I wade into the ocean.

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Speaker 3: I'm neck deep in water and I start going to

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Speaker 3: the bathroom and it comes out of both ends and

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Speaker 3: I just have this moment of clarity of what has

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Speaker 3: your life become like you? Truly, John set out not

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Speaker 3: to get drunk, and I did. And this is what

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Speaker 3: happens when you set out not to get drunk. You're

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Speaker 3: waiting in your own feces alone in the morning, neck

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Speaker 3: deep in water, and and I just like bald, and

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Speaker 3: so I got out, dried off. You know, I don't

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Speaker 3: know how long I was there. I go back to

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Speaker 3: the hotel and the next day, my wife, you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm hungover. I meet her down by the beach and

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Speaker 3: she asked me, She goes, did you get drunk last night?

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Speaker 3: And so quickly and so easily, I said, no, I

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Speaker 3: didn't get drunk last night. Throughout the day, she asked

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Speaker 3: me two more times. I called my Peter moment. Three times.

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Speaker 3: I was asked three times. I denied it. But yet

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Speaker 3: it is just eating me up all day. So we

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Speaker 3: go to dinner, we have reservations. We go to this place,

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Speaker 3: we order, and I just I'm like, I gotta tell her,

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Speaker 3: and so like, even before the food came out, I

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Speaker 3: sit there and I say, hey, babe, I gotta tell

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Speaker 3: you something. I said, you know, I did get drunk

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Speaker 3: last night, And pretty quick, so she she breaks down

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Speaker 3: and she's like, you know, I knew you got drunk

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Speaker 3: last night. I just wanted you to say it, and

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Speaker 3: I just wanted to see if you lie to me.

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Speaker 3: She goes, did it so easily? She goes, do you

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Speaker 3: know what that does to a woman? Especially like if

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Speaker 3: you can lie that well? Like what else if I

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Speaker 3: were to ask you are you lying about? You know?

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Speaker 3: And it just I mean, we paid for our food

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Speaker 3: pretty quickly, and we just started walking and we actually

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Speaker 3: ended up down at the beach close to where I

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Speaker 3: was the night before. And by this time, I'm making

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Speaker 3: all the promises right, I'm never going to drink it again.

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Speaker 3: I know I need help. I'm gonna get it, like

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Speaker 3: I don't know why I do this all the stuff.

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Speaker 3: And we're sitting there and she looks at me and

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Speaker 3: she goes, John, I don't want you to never drink again, Like,

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Speaker 3: I don't care if you ever drink again. That's not

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00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:06,920
Speaker 3: my goal. What you need to do is you need

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00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,920
Speaker 3: to get to the root of why you're drinking. Wise woman,

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Speaker 3: And I said in my head, I didn't say this

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Speaker 3: out loud, but I'm like, can we just go back

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Speaker 3: to the part where I don't drink, like that'd be easier.

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Speaker 4: You know, yes it would, because she's like, you have

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Speaker 4: things that happened to you, You have traumas in your past,

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Speaker 4: you have issues you've never dealt with, you have words

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Speaker 4: that have been said to you that you've never fleshed out.

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Speaker 3: And so if you stop drinking and seriously never drink again,

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Speaker 3: it's just going to be something else unless you get

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Speaker 3: to the heart of the problem. And so we had

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Speaker 3: started talking about that, and that night I literally pull

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Speaker 3: up my phone. There's a Christian trauma therapist that I

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Speaker 3: had been researching. I type in the form to get

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Speaker 3: an appointment, I send it, I show it to my

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Speaker 3: wife and that started. So that that was the rock

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Speaker 3: bottom moment. And then that started just a year straight

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Speaker 3: of counseling every week and therapy to get at the

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Speaker 3: root of why I was drinking.

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Speaker 2: Wow, but that is so important for people to hear,

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Speaker 2: because the drinking was a symptom of something else going on.

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Speaker 2: You have to get to the route, John, And one

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Speaker 2: of your chapters you explain how you view that term

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Speaker 2: alcoholism isn't really the best term to use anymore, and

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Speaker 2: that the definition has changed, and yet you use it.

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Speaker 1: In the book's title, you.

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Speaker 2: Explain how the definition has changed and why even you

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Speaker 2: still use it sometimes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I know there's some people who you know and

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Speaker 3: you go to meetings and in the in the community,

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Speaker 3: and some people are like I was at a church

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Speaker 3: last night at a meeting. It's like some people are saying,

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Speaker 3: I'm John, an alcoholic. I'm John, and I'm a recovered alcoholic.

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Speaker 3: I'm John and number recovering alcoholic. Yeah, And it's just

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Speaker 3: all these things right, and it's it's funny because I

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Speaker 3: think part of kept me in bondage for so long

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Speaker 3: is I had an idea of what the definition of

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Speaker 3: alcoholic is. And I think a lot of people have

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Speaker 3: that same definition because it's a definition that's fed to

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Speaker 3: us through stereotypes and Hollywood and whatnot. And we think

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00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,639
Speaker 3: alcoholic is someone who can't control their drinking to a

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Speaker 3: detrimental effect. And that detrimental effect we generally look at

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Speaker 3: and say, Okay, that's the guy that orgal, who can't

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Speaker 3: keep a job, who is underneath the bridge, who has emptied,

381
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,280
Speaker 3: you know, so much money, who can't go to church

382
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,399
Speaker 3: without a bottle of the mini wines before going in

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00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:35,119
Speaker 3: and certainly those people are alcoholics. But alcoholics, like I

384
00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:40,159
Speaker 3: said earlier, is really when you have prioritized alcohol to

385
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Speaker 3: the point where it is a misordered you know, aspect

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00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,760
Speaker 3: of your life that then becomes disordered. And so that's

387
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,879
Speaker 3: not just me, right. Twenty thirteen, as you're very familiar with,

388
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Speaker 3: there's a book called the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistic Manual,

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Speaker 3: And this is where you go. I mean, it's got

390
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Speaker 3: the diagnostic criteria, it's got you know, everything. And in

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Speaker 3: twenty thirteen, there's been five versions of the DSM since

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Speaker 3: like nineteen thirty something, right, So the book isn't updated often.

393
00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,360
Speaker 3: It takes a lot to update it. And in twenty thirteen, though,

394
00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,640
Speaker 3: they made a massive change to the section on alcoholism.

395
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Speaker 3: And the change was kind of twofold. A they don't

396
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,200
Speaker 3: call it alcoholism anymore. It's called alcohol use disorder. And

397
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Speaker 3: two it's now diagnosed on a spectrum. So where before

398
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Speaker 3: there was hey answer these five questions. If you get

399
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Speaker 3: a majority right, you're an alcohol abuser. If you get

400
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,520
Speaker 3: a majority right of these questions, you're you're basically you're

401
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,119
Speaker 3: an addict, right. And so what they realized though is

402
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,760
Speaker 3: a those questions weren't exhaustive, and there was a lot

403
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:43,399
Speaker 3: of people getting left through the cracks. There was a

404
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,119
Speaker 3: lot of people that could say, well, I'm not doing this,

405
00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,280
Speaker 3: and yet alcohol was controlling their lives and ruining their

406
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:50,919
Speaker 3: lives and the lives of those around them. So they

407
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,119
Speaker 3: changed the questions and now you only have to answer

408
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,360
Speaker 3: two of the eleven questions to be on the spectrum

409
00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:59,880
Speaker 3: right now. Where you are on that spectrum. The guy

410
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,480
Speaker 3: and or the gal that's underneath the bridge, yeah, they're

411
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,359
Speaker 3: way on the right on the spectrum. But me, John,

412
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,080
Speaker 3: I'm you know, I'm on the spectrum as well. And

413
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:09,680
Speaker 3: by the way, I was on the spectrum a lot

414
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,840
Speaker 3: earlier than I thought I was right. And so here's

415
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 3: the thing, and I to get to that second part

416
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Speaker 3: of your question. I use the term alcoholic, but I

417
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,000
Speaker 3: now know know that it has all the nuance of

418
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:26,080
Speaker 3: being on the spectrum right. But two things. One, Confessions

419
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,119
Speaker 3: of a Christian with Alcohol Use Disorder is not a

420
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:33,600
Speaker 3: catchy title, you know, doesn't really stand out. And second

421
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,919
Speaker 3: is like I want to in ascent educate people, and

422
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,440
Speaker 3: so people who pick up the Book of Curiosity or

423
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 3: want to understand I think I use that it's literally

424
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 3: it's technically the second chapter of the book, but the

425
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 3: first chapter of the book is really short. It's the

426
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,480
Speaker 3: first time I ever got drunk, and so really it's

427
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,000
Speaker 3: kind of the first main chapter of the book is

428
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:58,400
Speaker 3: let's understand what this is. And now now that you understand,

429
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,240
Speaker 3: you can stop playing the comparison game. You can stop saying, oh, well,

430
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:04,960
Speaker 3: I'm not doing this, this isn't happening, so I'm not

431
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 3: an alcoholic. Well, guess what, You're on the spectrum, right

432
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,160
Speaker 3: if you if you're doing even if you're doing these things,

433
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,280
Speaker 3: you're on the spectrum. And i'd someone say to me once, Oh,

434
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,960
Speaker 3: you're just trying to tell everyone they're alcoholics, and I'm like, no,

435
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,720
Speaker 3: I'm not. I have no vested interest in you being

436
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,480
Speaker 3: an alcoholic or being on the alcohol use disorder spectrum.

437
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,400
Speaker 3: You have a vested interest in realizing, hey, make this

438
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,399
Speaker 3: is occupying a place in my life that isn't great.

439
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,880
Speaker 3: And so I interviewed a mom for the book. She's

440
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:31,200
Speaker 3: a mom. She was a teacher of the Year in

441
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 3: our school district, and she had gotten to the point

442
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,439
Speaker 3: where she had to have her two classes of wine

443
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 3: every day when she got home from teaching, and she

444
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,359
Speaker 3: wasn't getting drunk, she wasn't emptying our bank account, but

445
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,719
Speaker 3: she had just it had become this issue of control.

446
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 3: And she's like, if I don't have my two classes

447
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 3: of I deserve that. And so what she found is

448
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 3: she was worshiping that as her relief and her release right.

449
00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,439
Speaker 3: And and she calls herself an alcoholic and and she

450
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,120
Speaker 3: fits the definition. She was going out of her way.

451
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,119
Speaker 3: She would if she would go to a restaurant and

452
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,159
Speaker 3: they didn't have you know, wine, or they messed up

453
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 3: or they ran out, she would, you know, break the

454
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 3: waiter and she's like, who am I? Who am I?

455
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 3: I'm not getting drunk, but like, what's going on? And

456
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,880
Speaker 3: I think especially these days with mommy and wine culture,

457
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 3: that has become really popular. Yeah, for sure.

458
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,199
Speaker 1: Oh, We've got so much to unpack.

459
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 3: Friends.

460
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 2: We're going to take a short break for a word

461
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,120
Speaker 2: from our sponsor, but I want you to stick with

462
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 2: us because John's going to share more about his personal

463
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:32,159
Speaker 2: story and how we can break free from hidden addictions.

464
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 1: We'll be right back.

465
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 2: Welcome back to your Hope the Perspective, where today we're

466
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 2: talking with John Seidel, the author of Confessions of a

467
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,640
Speaker 2: Christian Alcoholic John. You've shared a bit about your story,

468
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 2: but I'm really curious. How is Confessions different from other

469
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:53,679
Speaker 2: recovery books.

470
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 3: You know, I just in the day we're recording this.

471
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 3: I just did a little video about this, and I

472
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 3: struggle sometimes with how much to say here. I'm going

473
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 3: to be honest because I'm not trying to the to

474
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 3: The way to the top is not by just cutting

475
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 3: everyone down, right. But here's the deal. Here's what I

476
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 3: found when I started writing this book. I had a

477
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 3: lot of encouragement, especially Christians within the what they call

478
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 3: the recovery community, that said, hey, what you're saying is

479
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 3: not popular, but you need to say it because no

480
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 3: one else is. Well what is that? Well, here's what

481
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 3: I come to. Here's where I came to found in

482
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:33,360
Speaker 3: my addiction recovery journey. I had many times I said

483
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 3: I had an up and down relationship with alcohol in

484
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 3: my entire adult life. What I had come to find

485
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 3: is I was never able to completely give up drinking

486
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 3: because I was always trying to give up drinking. And

487
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 3: so I wrote this article like, well, how were you

488
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 3: able to stop drinking? I said, I stopped trying to

489
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,880
Speaker 3: stop drinking. I stopped trying to stop drinking. And there's

490
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 3: a I love C. S Lewis. I named my son

491
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,719
Speaker 3: after C. S. Lewis. And I was rereading Your Christianity

492
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 3: about a month ago for seminary and he's got that

493
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 3: famous line in there that like, shoot for Heaven and

494
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 3: you get the earth thrown in, right, And so what

495
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 3: I finally came to understand is I had to shoot

496
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 3: for Jesus. If I shot for Jesus, I would get

497
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 3: sobriety thrown in one hundred percent for sure, right. If

498
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 3: I shot for cultivating that relationship, if I shot for

499
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 3: letting him into all the broken pieces of myself that

500
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 3: I had walled off and said I am not going there.

501
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,640
Speaker 3: And if I'm not going there, you're not going there.

502
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 3: And so what I talk about in the book is

503
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,439
Speaker 3: that process, what that looks like, how people can do that,

504
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 3: How I did that? And I interviewed someone for the

505
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 3: book that was a very prominent person in the addiction

506
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 3: recovery space, a Christian former pastor. We did the interview

507
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 3: and I got an email from him later that day

508
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 3: or the next day, and he said, Hey, you can't

509
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 3: use any of my interview and you can't use my name,

510
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 3: And I said, oh, okay, why and said, because the

511
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 3: way you're talking about this is is harmful because people

512
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 3: think this, will think this, you know, when you're talking

513
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 3: about in terms of faith in Jesus, people are just

514
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 3: going to think it's an issue of having more faith

515
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,919
Speaker 3: or or it's just a moral failure. And he's like,

516
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 3: this is a disease. And here's the thing. I don't

517
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 3: doubt that there's a lot of harm. I know there's

518
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 3: been a lot of harm done in the name of Jesus,

519
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 3: especially when it comes to addiction. In fact, I write

520
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 3: in my first book about faith and mental health, there's

521
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 3: a lot of people that said, just pray about it,

522
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 3: just you know, pray your depression away, just pray your

523
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 3: anxiety way. But here's the error that I think so

524
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 3: many people make is it's a both and it's a

525
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,679
Speaker 3: spiritual issue and it's also a physical issue, right, But

526
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 3: the ultimate issues that I needed to uproot, the issues

527
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 3: that were at the root of my drinking. I said,

528
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 3: I had to get to the root of it. Like

529
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 3: my wife told me, Yeah, those weren't those weren't things

530
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 3: I could just like there were spiritual issues. There were

531
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 3: spiritual brokenness. There was sin that had that had caused trauma,

532
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 3: and there was my actions were sin, right, like, I

533
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,959
Speaker 3: did things that I should not have done. And I

534
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 3: can't just say this is a virus inside of me,

535
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 3: and and if that's true, then there's no hope for recovery. Right,

536
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 3: And so what I talk about in the book is, yes,

537
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 3: there was a there was a physical aspect that at

538
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 3: some point I can't tell you when, but at some

539
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 3: point took over, right that I craved the substance. I said,

540
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 3: well that that two weeks that I gave it up

541
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 3: before I hit rock bottom. I gave it up. And well,

542
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 3: I didn't have I didn't have the shakes. Well I

543
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 3: did have the night sweats. And when I gave it

544
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 3: up again, they came back. And and I'm waking up

545
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 3: at two in the morning. My entire sheets are drenched,

546
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 3: and I'm having to change my pajamas because I'm just

547
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 3: so good I thought I'd peed myself. Right. Well, that's

548
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 3: that's that's Those are physical symptoms, right, those are withdrawal symptoms.

549
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 3: My autonomic nervous system was so jacked up from the

550
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 3: amount that I was drinking in for how long I

551
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 3: was And so yes there's a physical aspect. My body

552
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 3: craved the substance, but I had to get to that

553
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 3: point like I didn't. I didn't drink alcohol, and and

554
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 3: from the moment I drink it, it was I just

555
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 3: couldn't control myself. You know. The chapter in the book

556
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 3: is called a slow fade? And how true is that

557
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 3: for so many of us on anything? Right? Like, I

558
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 3: just don't think people wake up one day and they say,

559
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 3: I am addicted to food, I am addicted to heroin, right,

560
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 3: I'm addicted to alcohol. Right. There's that process. And the

561
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 3: reason you turn to those things, the binging, the purging,

562
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 3: the alcohol, the drugs, the pornography your kids, is because

563
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 3: you're trying to you're trying to use them as a

564
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 3: means of escape. There's a book called The Many Lives

565
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,479
Speaker 3: of Mama Love and she's not a Christian, but it's

566
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 3: a memoir. It's an addiction memoir, and it's a suburban

567
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 3: mom and she, I mean, she becomes like this, like

568
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 3: suburban mom drug kingpin and doing drugs and she ends

569
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 3: up in prison and she opens the book and she says,

570
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 3: I was only ever addicted to the white whale of addictions,

571
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 3: and that is escapism.

572
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 2: And that was going to be my question for you.

573
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 2: Were you seeking the alcohol or were you seeking the

574
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 2: numbing effect for the other.

575
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 3: It's a great question, and I would say yes, right like.

576
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: It's I get it, it's both. Yeah.

577
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 3: I'm someone who likes the burn of bourbon man. I

578
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 3: like that burn down my throat. I like the taste.

579
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 3: My wife can't even smell it, and she's you know,

580
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 3: but I like it. I like the taste of beer.

581
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 3: I'm like, so excited right now if you're listening to

582
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 3: this and you're gonna be going into recovery, if you're

583
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 3: in recovery, like the non alcoholic I joke like, it's

584
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 3: been two and a half three years since I've had one,

585
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 3: But to me, it tastes pretty pretty pretty much the same.

586
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 3: But but I like the taste of beer, right. But

587
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 3: I would say that in general, even if it was

588
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 3: in the moment, even if in the moment I was like, well,

589
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 3: I'm just you know, I just like the taste of it.

590
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 3: How do I put this? When you know that something

591
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 3: is bad for you, and you know that what you're

592
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 3: doing is unhealthy, right, and you still do it anyways,

593
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 3: there's something deeper. There's always something deeper, right, Like I

594
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 3: don't know anyone, especially when it comes to like eating disorders,

595
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 3: who was purging and like that, even that process. I mean,

596
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 3: it's very guttural, right, you're not saying I like this, right?

597
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 3: Maybe sometimes in a twisted way, right, And that's where

598
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 3: where we're sinning destruction and the devil gets sin. But

599
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 3: I think in general, and I had someone ask me

600
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 3: this recently. They said, they said, what does your childhood

601
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,959
Speaker 3: traumas have to do with your drinking? How did that?

602
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 3: How did you become an alcoholic? I think to people

603
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 3: like you and me who are kind of been in

604
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 3: the quote industry, well, that's a slam dunk. What do

605
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 3: you mean? But I think there's a lot of people

606
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 3: out there who that's maybe if they don't want to

607
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 3: admit it, that's the question in the back of their mind.

608
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 3: Am I at thirty six drinking away? What happened to

609
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 3: me at six? Again? Yes? And no, Here's why it's

610
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 3: no in that I'm not sitting there every time I'm

611
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 3: drinking and getting drunk and I'm just through the week

612
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 3: sobbing about the abuse that happened to me and the

613
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 3: trauma that happened sometimes, right, Like there's certain anniversaries that

614
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 3: come up that you're like, yeah, I'm definitely just drinking.

615
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 3: I don't want to deal with this. But what happens

616
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 3: as a as a child, and you can speak into

617
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 3: this as well, is when those things happen, your brain

618
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 3: literally cannot make sense of them, right, the meaning making

619
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 3: part of your brain they call it, just can't do it.

620
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 3: And so you look to escape. And at sick, that's

621
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 3: tanka trucks. At thirty six, that's tequila, right. And so

622
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 3: what happens is you create these patterns in these habits

623
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 3: of escape. So what happens at six, and what happens

624
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 3: at twelve, and what happens at fourteen, you're just like,

625
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 3: I just I just need to escape this. I can't

626
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 3: make sense of this, right, And so at six it's

627
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 3: taka trucks, At fourteen it's masturbation. At thirty six it's alcohol, right.

628
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 3: And so you what you get used to and what

629
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 3: you train yourself is when something's stressful, when something bad happens,

630
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 3: I need to I just want to escape this. I

631
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 3: just want to escape this. I don't want to sit

632
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 3: here and think about it. I want to sit here

633
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 3: and make sense of it. I don't want to have

634
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 3: to think about if I'm a failure or or even

635
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 3: just speak to those lies. Right. And so what I told,

636
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:06,959
Speaker 3: what I told that person is it became a habit

637
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 3: of escape. And so when I hit the hardest part

638
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 3: of my life, right, I went for the easiest form

639
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 3: of escape, and that was alcohol.

640
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: That's key because we are so pain averse.

641
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't want to and I don't mean just

642
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 2: physical pain, although there's that too, but physical pain, emotional pain,

643
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 2: relational pain, spiritual pain that we just want to do

644
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 2: whatever we can as quickly as we can to ease

645
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 2: that pain. And for you, the easiest way of escaping

646
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 2: it was alcohol. For other people, it's shopping for other people.

647
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 2: It's gambling for other people. It's delving into work for

648
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 2: other people, it's drugs. But it that's why I so

649
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: appreciate your perspective about it taking over, because we're seeking

650
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 2: that escape.

651
00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 1: We've got so much to talk about. Friends.

652
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 2: We're going to take a short break for a word

653
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 2: from our sponsor. But when we come back, I'm going

654
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 2: to ask John to share a hope filled perspectives about

655
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 2: how even as Christians we can find help and healing.

656
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 2: We'll be right back, John, I feel like this is

657
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 2: a really important point. Would you just speak for a

658
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 2: moment about why repentance is so important when it comes

659
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 2: to these secret struggles that we have.

660
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think I live in an area,

661
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 3: especially where it feels like every week there's a new

662
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 3: pastor falling, there's a new leader falling.

663
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: Right, We're in the same area, yeah.

664
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 3: Right, And I think so this gets to be a

665
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 3: hot topic, right, what do you do with those people?

666
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 3: And one of the things I say is a no matter,

667
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 3: Grace is available and has been given to everyone, right.

668
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 3: And I think what I say is, if you want

669
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 3: to figure out what to do with those people, you

670
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 3: have to look at repentance to start. Right now. Hey,

671
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that you treat people like trash once

672
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,439
Speaker 3: they fall. The Bible talks about pretty clearly that it's

673
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 3: our love in the sense that can call people to repentance, right,

674
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 3: So I want to be clear about that that it's

675
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,879
Speaker 3: not writing people off. But I think in the end

676
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:24,240
Speaker 3: what's important is repentance is kind of like your indicator

677
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 3: about where someone stands regarding what they've done. Right. And

678
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 3: so for me, what I talk about in the book

679
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 3: is if you are someone who has gone through addiction,

680
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 3: there is a difference between worldly shame and godly grief.

681
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 3: Worldly shame beats yourself up. And I beat myself up

682
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 3: for years. And you know what I did with that

683
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 3: worldly shame, I drank it away, like I just kept

684
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,320
Speaker 3: going back to the bottle, right, But when I finally

685
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 3: got to the point of godly grief, that very quickly

686
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 3: led me to repentance. So that's why I talk about

687
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 3: how repentance is the kid, Like, that's how you know,

688
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 3: like is someone just sad they got caught or are

689
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 3: they sad for what they've done to themselves and to

690
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 3: those around them? Into God? When you see them repent, right,

691
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 3: that's when you know, Okay, that's a godly that's a

692
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 3: godly grief. And so I think we see this very

693
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 3: clearly in the Bible with two people. You have Judas

694
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 3: and you have Peter. Right, Judas very quickly regrets what

695
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 3: he did. But what does he do. He takes his

696
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 3: own life like it literally kills him. The worldly shame

697
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 3: Peter denies Jesus three times, what does he do? We

698
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 3: get this beautiful scene after Jesus comes back from the dead,

699
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 3: where he appears to Peter and Peter literally jumps out

700
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,359
Speaker 3: of the boat. He recognizes Jesus in the shot. He

701
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 3: jumps out of the boat and runs to him. Right.

702
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 3: And this is, I think, where we get this, the

703
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,479
Speaker 3: beautiful the three times where so Peter denies Jesus three times,

704
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,320
Speaker 3: and then Jesus asks Peter, do you love me? Of course?

705
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 3: Of course I love you Lord, of course other than

706
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 3: feed my sheep. Right. And so you juxtaposed those two.

707
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 3: What did Judis do? He ran and it literally killed them.

708
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 3: Peter ran, but he ran towards Jesus, right. And so

709
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 3: repentance is so key to restoring our relationship with the Lord, right,

710
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 3: and coming to understand it's not just I've gotten caught, right,

711
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 3: but it's I am. I am a nobody, I am like.

712
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 3: And I don't say that. I say that in the good,

713
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 3: in the good aspects of the term the humility, right,

714
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 3: not the self deprecation, the self flagulation, right, but the

715
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 3: the man I am? Just what have I done? Who

716
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 3: have I become? What is my world? Become? Right? And

717
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 3: and when we embrace that that leads to action. Okay,

718
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 3: that leads to action. And so that's why I like

719
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 3: these leaders that we're talking about. They're repentant. Right, it's

720
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 3: not like like the Bible calls us to forgiveness. Now

721
00:36:57,920 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 3: here's the key thing, and I make this point in

722
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 3: the book. Repentance does not always equal restoration. It will

723
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 3: always equal restoration with your savior. Right, but sometimes the

724
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 3: relationships that we have severed and broken and left in

725
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 3: a just our wake of destruction can't be repaired. Luckily

726
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 3: they have been for me, but I know people who

727
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 3: they haven't. But that doesn't determine, like whether you're on

728
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 3: a good path. And so I tell people like repentance

729
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 3: and even just like understand there's some traumas here that

730
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 3: that happened, Like those aren't excuses. They're explanations, but they're

731
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 3: not excuses. And so like repentance, your traumas, they're not

732
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 3: a get out of jail free card. In fact, you

733
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 3: may have to go to jail for some of the

734
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 3: things you did in the throes of your addiction, but

735
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 3: you will go to jail in the most peaceful way

736
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 3: possible because you know, I am I this has been restored.

737
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 3: This godly grief has led to repentance. And I know

738
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 3: a guy it's been a guest on my podcast. He

739
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 3: was a Major League baseball play and had a wild

740
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 3: night one night, ended up in a woman's room, was

741
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 3: charged and found guilty of I believe the actual charge

742
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,280
Speaker 3: was like attempted rape, and he spent years in prison

743
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 3: for that. And yet like he is, he's one of

744
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 3: the most joy filled people that you know. It's just

745
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,720
Speaker 3: got a smile on his face. He stayed out of trouble,

746
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,720
Speaker 3: and he's like, he's like, I did it. I did it.

747
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 3: It's my fault. Like I got drunk, I made I

748
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 3: did that action. That's not indicative of of who I

749
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 3: believe I am, fully, but I did it. I need

750
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 3: to pay the price. And he served his time and

751
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 3: he did it well and he's out and he's like

752
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,399
Speaker 3: the Lord is good. Right. So that's why I think

753
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 3: repentance is key. And you know a lot of these

754
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 3: recovery programs, right, and you make amends, but know that

755
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 3: making amends does not mean like there are some relationships

756
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 3: that can't be restored. And that's okay.

757
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 2: We're getting close to the end of this episode. But

758
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 2: he just mentioned recovery programs, and I know that you're

759
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 2: very open about not going to AAA or any twelve

760
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,879
Speaker 2: step recovery program. Just real briefly, why didn't you do it?

761
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 2: And are you against those or what's your thought about that?

762
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, great question, I'm glad you asked it. And so

763
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 3: here's the short version. I am not against them. And

764
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 3: what I mean by that is, however, as I opened earlier,

765
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,439
Speaker 3: I believe the best answer any addict is Jesus. Now

766
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,320
Speaker 3: that doesn't mean if you are like if you quit

767
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,439
Speaker 3: alcohol or drugs called turkey, that can literally kill some people. Right,

768
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 3: So don't hear me saying, oh my gosh, John just

769
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 3: said I just need Jesus. And so I don't need

770
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 3: to go to detox, you know, no, no, no, no, no, no.

771
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 3: You may need to go to detox, right, Like alcohol withdrawal,

772
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,359
Speaker 3: for example, can literally kill you. Right, go to detox, right.

773
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 3: And if at that detoc there's an AA, go to AA. Right.

774
00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 3: My point is I think there's something better for you

775
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,320
Speaker 3: when you press into Jesus. Does that mean you can't

776
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 3: do that without that AA? No? But I also think

777
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 3: largely the language and the attitude in many AA programs

778
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 3: has become to protect that idea of a higher power.

779
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,879
Speaker 3: Whereas before it was to be open, it's now and

780
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 3: I just know so many stories of people who have

781
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,839
Speaker 3: tried to bring Jesus into AA and been very open

782
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 3: about that being their higher power, and they are now

783
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 3: seen as kind of like the people with sidey right,

784
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 3: And so I just think there are better programs. Celebrate

785
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 3: recovery is a Christian version. I think that's better than AA.

786
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 3: And I would say that I think some of the

787
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 3: greatest pushback that I've gotten are from people in twelve

788
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 3: step recovery, even Christian twelve step recovery. I sent some

789
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 3: inquiries into some programs Christian based programs around me and

790
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 3: one of them, one of them said, Hey, you're sober,

791
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,760
Speaker 3: but you're not in recovery because you're not doing that program,

792
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 3: you know. And it just seems to me that when

793
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 3: it comes to twelve twelve step programs, there is a

794
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 3: proclivity to replace one addiction for another.

795
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 2: And I want to remind listeners you said earlier in

796
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 2: this episode you did seek out therapy. Yes, no, it

797
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 2: wasn't like you were anti professional help. Absolutely, you just

798
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 2: went a different route. And I want to remind listeners

799
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,720
Speaker 2: that Jesus healed in a myriad of ways.

800
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 3: Absolutely, absolutely and so and so yeah. I mean I

801
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 3: just think, like I don't don't worship a program. If

802
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,320
Speaker 3: it's helpful, and it's useful, and you can pursue Jesus

803
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 3: as part of that, do it right, But don't worship

804
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:44,240
Speaker 3: a program. Don't just trade one again, one slave master

805
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 3: for another, right, one master for another. And so that's

806
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:49,840
Speaker 3: that's what I encourage people. And listen. We had a

807
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 3: family member recently who was struggling with addiction. They live

808
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 3: in a kind of rural community and the only thing

809
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 3: available is AA, and I said, go to AA. They're like, wait,

810
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 3: I thought you were against AA. I said, I'm not

811
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,359
Speaker 3: against AA. Right, Like, if that's what's available to you,

812
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 3: do it the pursue Jesus as well, right.

813
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 2: And I think an overarching message is don't fall under

814
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 2: the lie that you have to do this recovery journey alone,

815
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 2: because Satan thrives in isolating us. But that could be

816
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 2: a a it could be celebrate recovery, it could be

817
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:27,840
Speaker 2: a therapist, it could be a church mentor, but please

818
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:33,359
Speaker 2: share it with a trusted individual. Don't isolate because this

819
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 2: has a tendency to make us isolate even more because

820
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 2: of that worldly shame.

821
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And so I talked about community as well

822
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 3: in the book, right, and so I did have a community,

823
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,320
Speaker 3: and I did have I didn't have a quote unquote sponsor.

824
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 3: I just paid my sponsor one hundred and fifty dollars

825
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 3: a week to walk to walk me through, you know,

826
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 3: all the pain and trauma and give me the advice

827
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 3: that I that I needed. Right, that's my sponsor. And

828
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 3: I had people. I've had people who've gone through twelve

829
00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,879
Speaker 3: Steps that have read the book and they said, oh,

830
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 3: you did the twelve steps. I'm like really, They're like yeah,

831
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 3: they're all in there. I'm like, oh, okay, neat right.

832
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:07,720
Speaker 3: They just got to happen naturally.

833
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 2: So, John, if a listener or a viewer is somehow

834
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 2: resonating with our conversation today, maybe they're struggling with some

835
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,319
Speaker 2: kind of hidden secret addiction, or they have a loved

836
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 2: one who is what hope filled perspective would you want

837
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 2: to leave them with today?

838
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 3: Comes down to this phrase, there is another side, like

839
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 3: you can get through to the other side. I think

840
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 3: in the throes of my addiction, My perspective, even my

841
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 3: wife's at times was very dark, and it's hard to

842
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:43,359
Speaker 3: see what life can look like without whatever that thing is.

843
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 3: And you've alluded to this is like the vehicle for

844
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 3: talking about this stuff is alcohol, but it's really for

845
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 3: anyone who struggled with anything they don't want to do right.

846
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 3: And so if you're struggling with a eating disorder, if

847
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 3: you're struggling with porn, if you're struggling with a sex addiction,

848
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:01,839
Speaker 3: if you're struggling with codependency, just struggling with alcohol, it's

849
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 3: hard to see the other side. And I think that's

850
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 3: part of the lie, right, And you think, you know,

851
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 3: especially when it comes to alcohol, How am I gonna?

852
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 3: How am I going to I'm gonna have fun? How

853
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:14,839
Speaker 3: am I gonna grieve? How am I gonna? How am

854
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 3: I gonna be sad? How am I gonna be? Like?

855
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 3: All this things? Right? Because by the end for me,

856
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 3: it was everything was drinking and right, it became drinking

857
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:26,280
Speaker 3: and and drinking, like watching football and drinking, cooking and drinking,

858
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like it's just sad and drinking,

859
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 3: happy and drinking, right, And I'm just telling you there

860
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,839
Speaker 3: is another side and listen. Sometimes, like you look at

861
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 3: the Bible, like sometimes going from one side of the

862
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 3: sea to the other involves a storm in the middle, right,

863
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 3: that Jesus has to call and that you have to

864
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 3: reach out to him. And that was true for me.

865
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 3: Like getting to the other side, it wasn't like, oh

866
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 3: my gosh, the birds are chirping and the rainbow and

867
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 3: the breeze is so nice, right, like it was a storm.

868
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 3: But I can tell you that Jesus calms the storm,

869
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 3: and that life on the other side is so much

870
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 3: sweeter and and so much more fulfilling than I could

871
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,879
Speaker 3: have ever imagined. Like I joke, I'm like, I've got

872
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 3: so many more pictures in my phone of like sunsets

873
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:12,919
Speaker 3: and clouds and birds. I'm like, who am I? Right?

874
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 3: And you just there's just a zest and a sweetness

875
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,240
Speaker 3: to life that I can tell you that only Jesus

876
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 3: can fill. That only Jesus can bring. And that's why,

877
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 3: going back to the part we just talked about, that's

878
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,720
Speaker 3: why I tell people, can you get sober without Jesus?

879
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 3: Absolutely millions of people have gotten sober without Jesus. But

880
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 3: you're not going to live the most flourishing and fulfilled

881
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 3: life without Jesus. And that's what I want for you,

882
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 3: and I'm telling you that's available on the other side.

883
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 2: Friends, I hope that you heard that, and I hope

884
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:43,280
Speaker 2: that there was something in today's episode that has.

885
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 1: Encouraged your heart.

886
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 2: And if you know someone who's struggling with some kind

887
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 2: of addiction, would you consider sharing this episode with them

888
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 2: to encourage their heart from a biblically based, hope filled perspective. Now,

889
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 2: this has been such a valuable and engaging and thoughtful discussion,

890
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,280
Speaker 2: but I feel like we've just barely scratched the surface,

891
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:04,400
Speaker 2: and I think that there's so much more that we

892
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 2: could share with our audience to help them in their journey.

893
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 2: Would you be willing to come back for a part

894
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 2: two of this conversation?

895
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 3: Absolutely, let's do it, all right.

896
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 1: Let's do it. Friends.

897
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 2: I hope you'll tune in to part two where we

898
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,840
Speaker 2: share more help and hope for you on your journey

899
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 2: until we meet again next time. You know, it's my

900
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 2: prayer for you that you have a hope filled week.

901
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 5: Your ragged and torn past may be the key to

902
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 5: God's future for you. We all endure trials, pain, and

903
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 5: hardship in this life. Too often we believe these experiences

904
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:47,240
Speaker 5: disqualify us from being useful to God. But the truth

905
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 5: is your past pain and brokenness serve as preparation for

906
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 5: what God wants to do in and through you, if

907
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 5: you will surrender to entrust Him in Sacred scars. Neuropsychologist

908
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 5: and fellow sufferer, doctor Michelle Bankson helps you understand the

909
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 5: suffering from a biblical perspective, Discover how the trials of

910
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 5: your life serve a purpose, reflect on the healing that

911
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 5: God has accomplished, and comfort others, but the comfort God

912
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 5: has given you. Just as Jesus' scars didn't disappear after

913
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 5: his resurrection and confirmed that he was who he said

914
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 5: he was and that he did what he said he'd do,

915
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:41,439
Speaker 5: our emotional or physical scars tell our story and lend

916
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:46,839
Speaker 5: credence to our testimony of God's love and power. If

917
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 5: you are ready to turn your past pain into present

918
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:56,359
Speaker 5: comfort and future hope, let doctor Benkson be your compassionate guide.

919
00:47:56,600 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 5: Jill Savage, host of The No More Perfect Odd and

920
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:04,959
Speaker 5: author of No More Perfect Marriages, have this to say

921
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 5: about sacred scars. While we wish for a pain free life.

922
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 5: The dark seasons are where God invites us into the

923
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 5: most growth. In the pages of this book, you will

924
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 5: come to understand how God uses pain in powerful ways.

925
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 5: If you're human, you need this book. Pick up a

926
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:30,240
Speaker 5: copy of Sacred Scars wherever books are sold, and watch

927
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,280
Speaker 5: God turn your pain into purpose.

928
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 6: Thank you for joining doctor Manson for your hope filled perspective.

929
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 6: We hope you are encouraged by her authenticity, vulnerability, and

930
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 6: biblical truths. If you enjoy today's conversation, when you take

931
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 6: a moment right now, open up your podcast app and

932
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 6: look for the subscribe button right next to our podcast

933
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 6: profile image. We think this podcast is best enjoyed with

934
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 6: friends and click share in your podcast app and send

935
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 6: a friend our link to share hope with them. If

936
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 6: you have a comment, question, or suggest a topic for

937
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 6: a future show, reach out to our staff at info

938
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 6: at Hope Prevails dot org. For additional resources. Information about

939
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:20,359
Speaker 6: doctor Bankson's books where free downloads, or to contact her

940
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 6: to speak at your next event, please visit doctor Michelbe

941
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 6: dot com. Until next time, May you have a hope

942
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:28,720
Speaker 6: filled week.

943
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 2: I'd like to take just a second to thank the

944
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 2: team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on

945
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 2: this podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll

946
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:43,880
Speaker 2: find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network.

947
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 2: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.