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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 2: I'm Dr. James Spencer.

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Speaker 1: Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways

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Speaker 1: God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural,

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Speaker 1: and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now,

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Speaker 1: on to today's episode of Thinking Christian.

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Speaker 2: Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr.

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Speaker 2: James Spencer, and I am joined today by a special guest.

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Speaker 1: He's written a book that I really enjoyed, but the

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Speaker 1: one we're going to talk about today, which I also enjoyed,

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Speaker 1: Jonathan P.

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Speaker 3: Walton.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to be talking about his book, Beauty

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Speaker 1: and Resistance, as well as maybe one of his other titles,

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Speaker 1: which will be kind of cool. Jonathan is also the

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Speaker 1: author of a book called, I'm trying to pull up

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Speaker 1: my screen here so I can make sure I get

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Speaker 1: the title completely right, 12 Lives That Hold America Captive.

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Speaker 1: And the truth that sets us free. And so I'm

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Speaker 1: excited to have a conversation with Jonathan. Jonathan, welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast, man.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much, James, for having me on.

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Speaker 4: I really appreciate you, the work you're doing and trying

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Speaker 4: to push people to think.

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Speaker 3: That would be great.

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Speaker 1: We got to have the space for it. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's one of the things I really loved about

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Speaker 1: your book. It feels like some of the themes that

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Speaker 1: we've written on and I've thought about and, you know,

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Speaker 1: it feels like we're going to have a really cool

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Speaker 1: conversation because I think we we are thinking along the

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Speaker 1: same wavelength. So give me a little background, man. Like,

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Speaker 1: where did the where does your impetus to write come from?

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Speaker 1: You know, you wrote the 12 Myths book.

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Speaker 2: Now you've got Beauty and Resistance.

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Speaker 1: Like, what is it about your life and your interests

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Speaker 1: that lead you to write these books?

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So writing for me started off when I was 16,

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Speaker 4: 17 years old.

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Speaker 3: So I was an.

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Speaker 4: Angry kid and I wanted to fight and do all

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Speaker 4: the things. And my mama said, go play football, be

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Speaker 4: as angry as you want to be on the field.

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Speaker 4: And I did that to injury to myself and other people.

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Speaker 4: And she said, you know, write these things down. And

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Speaker 4: so like I started off as like poetry, slam, all

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Speaker 4: that stuff. I remember the first time I came home

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Speaker 4: and told her I was going to be a rapper

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Speaker 4: and she was like, your name is Jonathan, not whatever

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Speaker 4: you're thinking about pitching.

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Speaker 3: To me right now. And so I'm still Jonathan Walton.

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Speaker 3: There's no nickname or anything like that.

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Speaker 4: So specifically with 12 lies and beauty and resistance, we

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Speaker 4: actually wrote, I had me a team of students that

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Speaker 4: I've been working with.

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Speaker 3: We wrote those book proposals at the same time.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 4: And my wife told me, she's like, you know, I

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Speaker 4: would not be able to do anything without her.

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Speaker 3: She said, Jonathan, you could write 12 lies whenever.

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Speaker 4: She says, but you can't talk about what was at

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Speaker 4: the time emotionally healthy activists with any sort of integrity.

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Speaker 4: She says, you don't live any of that. And so

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Speaker 4: all of your interviews, any conversations you'd be talking.

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Speaker 3: You'd just be bullshitting. Like that's. Yeah. Yeah. So you

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Speaker 3: can write 12 lies. You believe that stuff.

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Speaker 4: You know, that stuff, that, that stuff oozes out of you.

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Speaker 4: She goes, you know, nothing about spiritual formation. You're not,

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Speaker 4: you're not, you don't Sabbath. You don't have rhythms. Let's,

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Speaker 4: let's be honest with people.

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Speaker 3: And if that blew up and that's what you're known for,

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Speaker 3: that'd be a tragedy. That's what she said. So seven

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Speaker 3: years later, beauty.

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Speaker 1: So it's coming out of that lived experience, but I mean, I,

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Speaker 1: I will say having read 12 lies and now having

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Speaker 1: read beauty and resistance, I see a lot of commonality

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Speaker 1: between the two. I mean, this idea of, um, to

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Speaker 1: some degree it feels like, and you can correct me

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Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, but like when I read 12 lies

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Speaker 1: or 12 minutes, um, What I saw was sort of

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Speaker 1: the intellectual side, sort of the cognitive side working out

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Speaker 1: of a lot of what then you talk about ultimately

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Speaker 1: in Beauty and Resistance.

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Speaker 2: So you've got this, how do we think about these things?

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Speaker 1: How do we frame them intellectually, examine them from more

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Speaker 1: of that academic kind of perspective? But then in Beauty

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Speaker 1: and Resistance, now what does this look like as a

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Speaker 1: lived experience? How do we go about actually implementing some

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Speaker 1: of these things and avoiding those myths, those lies? How

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Speaker 1: do we structure our lives so that we're not as

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Speaker 1: susceptible to those things?

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Speaker 2: Is that a fair?

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Speaker 3: That is exactly right.

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Speaker 4: If I was able to, because a lot of people

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Speaker 4: can't do both at the same time, right? We go

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Speaker 4: and we watch a documentary. We understand the problems. And

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Speaker 4: that's an hour and a half. And that's about all

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Speaker 4: the space we have. And then we go pick up

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Speaker 4: our kids or go to out to dinner.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: Like we, we.

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Speaker 4: Don't have the, like, here's the five minute video. Now

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Speaker 4: let's spend 55 minutes unpacking how you're going to address

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Speaker 4: whatever hard.

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Speaker 3: Thing just came up for you. You know what I mean?

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Speaker 4: And that I think to your podcast and it's ethos

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Speaker 4: is like, that's what discipleship is like, I've been leading

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Speaker 4: different groups for the last 15 to 20 years. And

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Speaker 4: someone can say they believe that every person has made

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Speaker 4: the image of God. But then we go out and

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Speaker 4: they meet somebody who's unhoused or homeless.

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Speaker 3: Or a foster kid.

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Speaker 4: All of a sudden, all that theology goes out of

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Speaker 4: the window and all of their baggage comes forward. And

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Speaker 4: I think that's the fundamental difference between orientation, which is

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Speaker 4: what most Christian content is, And then training and formation.

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Speaker 3: Training would just be discipleship in a Christian environment. And

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Speaker 3: then formation would be that long-term deep work. It's like,

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Speaker 3: why can't I do the thing that somebody asked me

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Speaker 3: to do? You know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: I do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So beauty and resistance, I think, is the invitation to

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Speaker 4: training and formation or discipleship.

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Speaker 2: I think it's something I've thought about a lot. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I would just get your take on it.

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Speaker 1: When I think about discipleship and formation, I've had a

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Speaker 1: lot of difficulty understanding how to do that with a book.

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Speaker 1: So like the way you phrased it, that invitation to

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Speaker 1: training and formation, I think is as close as I

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Speaker 1: can get in a book form to really helping somebody

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Speaker 1: do that work because it requires more than just thinking

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Speaker 1: about it. It actually requires people to do something about it.

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Speaker 1: There has to be an activity of participation. And books

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Speaker 1: can nudge people that way, but they don't provide the

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Speaker 1: sort of accountability and the, you know, the discipline and the,

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Speaker 1: you know, the structures, like you were saying with your wife,

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Speaker 1: like books, not going to tell you that your wife will,

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Speaker 1: but a book won't.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: And so there's this sort of lived component that a

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Speaker 1: book just can't reach. I don't know what your thoughts

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Speaker 1: are on that, but.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of. I think,

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Speaker 3: rising popular books about this.

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Speaker 4: I think John Mark Comer's book, The Ninefold Path, or

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Speaker 4: even before him, Mark Scandrett with Free. You've got, I think,

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Speaker 4: smatterings of that with Rich Valotis, his stuff. I think

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Speaker 4: Pete Scazzaro, he points at that, but unless you're in

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Speaker 4: the church and doing the work, it's hard to get.

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Speaker 4: But everybody's kind of pointing to like, we have, this

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Speaker 4: has to be embodied, which is just Jesus.

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Speaker 3: Jesus didn't say like, believe in me and I'm going

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Speaker 3: to leave you right here. He said, no, like come

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Speaker 3: and follow me, you know? So we are very far

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Speaker 3: away from.

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Speaker 4: Just the models of discipleship and formation that would have

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Speaker 4: shaped the early church and obviously shaped like Jewish believers

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Speaker 4: at the time in the, in the life of Jesus.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah.

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Speaker 4: So if, if there was a way to, and I might,

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Speaker 4: I have a thesis work around this, but like, um,

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Speaker 4: Jerry Falwell, because that's like my scholarly work was.

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Speaker 3: On Jerry Falwell, the megachurches.

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Speaker 4: Jerry Falwell, you know, in Lynchburg, Virginia, when he came

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Speaker 4: out of seminary, decided that he was going to try

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Speaker 4: to build an institution that took over the entire life

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Speaker 4: of everybody involved, right? To his own ends in many ways.

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Speaker 4: And there are fruits of those things that, by God,

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Speaker 4: grace has happened, and then there's things that are really

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Speaker 4: unhelpful that came from that, right? But I think what

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Speaker 4: we're looking for is how can we have an all-encompassing way.

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Speaker 3: That leads to fruitfulness and wholeness as.

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Speaker 4: Opposed to an all-encompassing way that leads to violence, exploitation, accumulation.

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Speaker 3: And death, right?

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Speaker 4: Because I personally don't think that all-encompassing things are bad.

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 4: You know, but like the kingdom of God is all

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Speaker 4: encompassing and colonization is, right?

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Speaker 3: And so like, how do we.

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Speaker 4: Lean into the kingdom in ways that are transformative and

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Speaker 4: helpful and sustainable and getting back to what Jesus experienced

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Speaker 4: in the context of the disciples would be, I mean,

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Speaker 4: just an amazing thing to experience if we were able

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Speaker 4: to do that, you know?

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's a really interesting insight. I think I've sort of

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Speaker 1: been playing around with that myself and sort of thinking

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Speaker 1: about what's the appropriate constraint to put on our vision, right?

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Speaker 1: So that we can, so that it enables us to

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Speaker 1: do appropriate things. So in other words, when we think

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Speaker 1: about it, you know, if you and I were not

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Speaker 1: speaking English right now, we wouldn't be able to understand

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Speaker 1: each other. We're working within the constraints of language to

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Speaker 1: actually have a conversation and those constraints enable that. And

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Speaker 1: so when you talk about like Jerry Falwell and that institution, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's going to have some good things and some bad

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Speaker 1: things because it's an extension of something else. And what

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Speaker 1: we're trying to get is we're trying to get down

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Speaker 1: to what are the governing dynamics of reality? And those

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Speaker 1: governing dynamics really are let's be dependent on God, follow

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Speaker 1: his lead. And that doesn't necessarily lend itself all the

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Speaker 1: time to us accomplishing our own agendas.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 3: Right. It's inefficient. It's unprofitable. It's messy. Right. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of fascinating. And when I read your book,

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Speaker 1: Beauty and Resistance, I'm sitting there thinking like, you know,

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Speaker 1: I've had conversations with people about the political realm. And again,

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Speaker 1: having read your other book, I'm kind of sitting there thinking, yeah, like,

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Speaker 1: The basic insight that I usually give people is being

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Speaker 1: a Christian means that we have to be willing to obey,

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Speaker 1: even if obeying means that we take that we.

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Speaker 2: Suffer political losses. Right.

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Speaker 1: Like we're not out here for the politics. We're out

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Speaker 1: here for the obedience. We're out here for the bearing witness.

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Speaker 1: And so when I read your beauty and resistance, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: this is a recipe for suffering.

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Speaker 2: Failure in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes.

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Speaker 1: But it's also a recipe for maybe it'd be better

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Speaker 1: to say it is a recipe for reframing success. It's

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Speaker 1: a recipe for understanding how we actually become more human.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's so the hard part about following Jesus.

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Speaker 4: I was having a conversation about this in therapy like

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Speaker 4: two weeks ago because I got I've been rejected from

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Speaker 4: three conferences this year.

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Speaker 3: So I've I've been booked to speak. And then like

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Speaker 3: a week before they're like, Hey, my bad. Like, we

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Speaker 3: don't want you to come. Um, then I talk, I

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Speaker 3: did another conference, like I've spoken there before and they're like, actually, no,

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Speaker 3: we can't do that.

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Speaker 4: Um, and then this last one, I went to the

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Speaker 4: conference spoke and I was supposed to give a second talk.

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Speaker 3: And in the middle of the night, I got a

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Speaker 3: text message to be like, ah, no, don't come back. Right.

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Speaker 4: And here, and here's what I think the gap was

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Speaker 4: in all three places. is that if I am successful, right?

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Speaker 4: And I say this everywhere that I go.

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Speaker 3: Take up your cross, deny yourself, follow me. That's what

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Speaker 3: he said. And so let's figure out what our crosses are.

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Speaker 3: What does it mean to deny yourself? What does it

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Speaker 3: mean to follow him? Try to pull that into context.

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Speaker 3: And that is disruptive.

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Speaker 4: Peter left his father's business He like there's generational wealth

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Speaker 4: that's being given up. There's influences given up. There's this

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Speaker 4: place in society that's given up. That's long term provision.

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Speaker 4: Like his children may not have the skill. Like there's

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Speaker 4: a lot of stuff happening. And like that's disruptive in

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Speaker 4: a lot of church environments.

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Speaker 3: If I say if I start saying like, hey, Jesus

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Speaker 3: said that we're to honor our parents. So why don't

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Speaker 3: we honor our elders? What would that look like? These

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Speaker 3: are basic, difficult things that some places don't want to

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Speaker 3: deal with.

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Speaker 4: But if we incorporated it, it would be obedient and

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Speaker 4: it would be successful.

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Speaker 3: That's Philippians 2, right? That's in 12. I love Philippians 2.

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Speaker 4: For the joy set before him, he endured the cry.

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Speaker 4: And it's like, okay, what is the joy set before me?

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 4: OK, that's going to help me endure. And that doesn't

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Speaker 4: look like, you know, house of dog kids and all

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Speaker 4: the time.

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Speaker 3: You know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: So I do.

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Speaker 5: I do.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting. I'll tell my I was a jerk story.

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Speaker 1: And so I was kind of a younger, you know,

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Speaker 1: seminarian finishing on my Ph.D. Still hadn't sort of knocked

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Speaker 1: the rough edges off of the all the arrogance. And

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Speaker 1: so my church at the time I was going to

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Speaker 1: they were having this big campaign and.

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Speaker 2: They wanted to grow by, I don't know, 5000 more people.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: And so they said, we would like testimonies. You know,

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Speaker 1: you go decide how much you're going to give to

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Speaker 1: this campaign. And then we'd like testimonies about, you know,

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Speaker 1: your decision. And so I went to our pastor and

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Speaker 1: I said, hey, you know, we we thought about this.

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Speaker 1: We don't we are not going to give anything to

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Speaker 1: the campaign. We don't feel like this is the appropriate

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Speaker 1: direction for the church to be going.

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Speaker 2: Can I share?

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Speaker 1: And again, this is my jerk story. But I mean,

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Speaker 1: it illustrates something. It really does that. What we're, when

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Speaker 1: you're talking about that disruptive moment, right? If you really

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Speaker 1: do feel like you're not going to go along with

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Speaker 1: everything that's happening in your church, that's everything that's happening

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Speaker 1: in the Christian community.

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Speaker 2: At some point you become a problem. Yes.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 3: And, and I, and let's, let's, let's lean in Jay.

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Speaker 3: Let's leave it. All right. So like, the people who

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Speaker 3: become a problem, right?

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Speaker 4: So like I've, I've had pastors sit down with me and,

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Speaker 4: you know, someone came in, they're large givers to the church.

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Speaker 4: They sat, they sat down for coffee, you know, and

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Speaker 4: the person goes, what you're preaching about, I don't come

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Speaker 4: to church for. I come to church to like get my,

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Speaker 4: you know, get my hour and a half, get my

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Speaker 4: fellowship and go home.

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Speaker 3: And like, you're messing that up for me essentially. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And so the pastor said, I hear you and I

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Speaker 4: appreciate your, role in our community, but these are the

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Speaker 4: issues in our community and we're going to go this way.

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Speaker 3: And then they left the church, right? Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Now, the pastor then has to deal with the fact

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Speaker 4: that they took 20% of the church's ties with them, right?

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Speaker 4: And so then the pastor has to decide, okay, what's

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Speaker 4: going to go, right?

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Speaker 3: Like all these different things.

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Speaker 4: And so I literally had a conversation with someone they

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Speaker 4: came up to me and they said, Hey, Jonathan, just

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Speaker 4: want you to know where I'm, I am not a pastor.

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Speaker 3: Let's be clear. I'm just in churches.

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Speaker 4: But they came up to me and cause I had

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Speaker 4: been preaching a six week series there. And they said, Hey, Jonathan,

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Speaker 4: just want to let you know that I'm leaving the church.

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Speaker 3: And I said, Oh, okay. God bless you. Like there

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Speaker 3: are many believers.

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Speaker 4: Like I hope, I hope things go really well where

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Speaker 4: you're going. But can you tell me like what, why,

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Speaker 4: why you're going there? And she said, well, you know,

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Speaker 4: I just think there's like too much emphasis on the

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Speaker 4: poor and the marginalized here.

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Speaker 3: Like we really have to figure out like just some

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Speaker 3: other priorities. And I was like, oh, great. I hope

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Speaker 3: you have great, have a great day. Like I didn't,

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Speaker 3: I was not expecting that. Like it just wasn't expected.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 4: You know, I thought she was like upset about something.

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Speaker 4: Like somebody's, and I was like, oh, you're upset with

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Speaker 4: Matthew 25.

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Speaker 3: Oh, all right. Yeah. God bless you. Because at the

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Speaker 3: end of the day, that is not successful in 2025.

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Speaker 3: It's not. Another writer I love is Ocean Vuong. He's

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Speaker 3: a poet, Vietnamese immigrant. And he has a book called

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Speaker 3: The Emperor of Gladness. Gladness is a town in Connecticut

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Speaker 3: that is kind of powered on. And he's like, his

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Speaker 3: brother works at Dick's Sporting Goods. And he will work

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Speaker 3: at Dick's Sporting Goods for the next 35 years.

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Speaker 4: And he loves it. And he will probably die working

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Speaker 4: at Dick's Sporting Goods. In this town of 10,000 people.

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Speaker 4: And he goes, that is not the American story everybody

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Speaker 4: wants to hear. But most people are just normal, loving,

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Speaker 4: kind people. But that doesn't rub the thing. That doesn't

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Speaker 4: get on YouTube.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't get the likes. It doesn't get the money.

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Speaker 3: So I think being a Christian means you will be

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Speaker 3: insignificant and exceptionally kind.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And that would be great, you know, but anyway, I

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Speaker 3: just talked a lot.

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Speaker 2: No, it's really helpful.

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, my mind goes a number of

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Speaker 1: different ways because if I'm, you know, I've read your

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Speaker 1: two books again in tandem, sort of, I read them

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Speaker 1: at different times, but thinking about them in tandem, you

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Speaker 1: just think about the cultural narratives that we've got that

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Speaker 1: we have to deal with and overcome in order to

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Speaker 1: Sort of move into, we could call it the success

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Speaker 1: of the gospel, right? What does it really look like

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Speaker 1: to live that life? And it isn't trivial. I had

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Speaker 1: a couple of guys on, they wrote a book called, shoot,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to forget the name of the title.

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Speaker 2: They were talking about kids sports, away game. That's the

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Speaker 2: name of the book.

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Speaker 1: And so they're talking about, you know, this whole sort

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Speaker 1: of movement that's gone into travel sports and how parents

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Speaker 1: can deal with it.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: And my, my daughter's played lacrosse, so we're dealing with that. But,

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Speaker 1: you know, you get down to this point where it's like, okay,

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Speaker 1: if the tournament's on Sunday, what do you do?

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: They were really helpful in kind of navigating some of that.

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Speaker 1: I actually learned a lot from their conversation, but, but

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Speaker 1: for a long time, I was just kind of sitting back, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you, if you landed in the either

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Speaker 1: or scenario, you're either skipping church to go to a

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Speaker 1: tournament or you're telling your kids that they can't have

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Speaker 1: this opportunity because they'll miss Sundays.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 1: And, and that's just part of the structure that we

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Speaker 1: deal with. And I think that's part of the structure

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Speaker 1: that you're really addressing in, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, uh, beauty and resistance, right?

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Speaker 1: Like how do we, how do we break out of

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Speaker 1: that and, and accept some losses for the inevitable gains

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Speaker 1: that we get out of this?

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Speaker 3: Right. So concrete example, right? Um, Where are they at?

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Speaker 3: Justin Early wrote a book called Habits of the Household. Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Great book. Great book.

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Speaker 4: And so I, you know, gleaned some things from that.

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Speaker 4: And I remember having conversations in our own house, right?

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Speaker 4: And we're dealing with these tensions. And so my daughter,

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Speaker 4: my older daughter, she started gymnastics three and a half

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Speaker 4: years ago. And we just made a decision. You're not

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Speaker 4: going to compete on Sundays. And if we do compete

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Speaker 4: on Sundays, we've got a Sabbath or have some time

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Speaker 4: with other people.

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Speaker 3: She goes, OK. Right. Because she was six.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: You know what I mean? And so so here's here's

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Speaker 3: the here's what I want to push forward for that.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: So like we've been having those conversations since she. was

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Speaker 3: a kid. Oh, she's still a kid.

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Speaker 4: She's nine now, but like having those conversations. So she's

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Speaker 4: listening to us make purchases.

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Speaker 3: She asked why she has a conversation.

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Speaker 4: When we, when we pray and eat, when we, you know, my,

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Speaker 4: the prayer that we pray.

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Speaker 3: When we eat food is in the book. Right.

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Speaker 4: So we're like, you know, bless us food to our

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Speaker 4: bodies and our bodies to your service. Be with those

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Speaker 4: who don't have food. God, would they experience the same freedom,

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Speaker 4: fellowship and community that we have today?

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Speaker 3: Right. And so we're praying those things. When we do that,

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Speaker 3: our kids are going to ask hard questions, even of us.

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Speaker 3: So now we can't pass people on the street without

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Speaker 3: my daughter saying we have to go back. Didn't we

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Speaker 3: pray about that?

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Speaker 4: You know, now my daughter doesn't bring up competing and

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Speaker 4: doing events on Sundays.

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Speaker 3: You see what I'm saying?

437
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Speaker 4: There's a thing that can happen when all of a

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Speaker 4: sudden we get formed differently.

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Speaker 3: You know what I mean? I do. I won't say

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Speaker 3: her name for security stuff. So she's like, oh, we

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Speaker 3: just don't do that. You know? So it's in her already.

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Speaker 3: We just don't do that. And then we move on.

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Speaker 3: You know what I mean?

444
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,350
Speaker 4: I think there's beautiful things that we can do And

445
00:21:06,369 --> 00:21:07,720
Speaker 4: then our kids will get it.

446
00:21:08,290 --> 00:21:10,369
Speaker 3: And the loss that we think they're going.

447
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:15,020
Speaker 4: To experience, they actually won't because they know what gaining is,

448
00:21:15,580 --> 00:21:15,880
Speaker 4: you know?

449
00:21:16,420 --> 00:21:16,660
Speaker 2: I do.

450
00:21:16,940 --> 00:21:17,140
Speaker 3: Yeah.

451
00:21:17,980 --> 00:21:19,300
Speaker 2: Talk a little bit about your journey.

452
00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:21,379
Speaker 1: Cause I mean, when you read the book, you, you know,

453
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:26,619
Speaker 1: you came out of a pretty difficult situation for you, right? Where,

454
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,090
Speaker 1: where all this is coming out of sort of a man,

455
00:21:29,109 --> 00:21:31,870
Speaker 1: my life's breaking apart. I, I, you know, there's obviously

456
00:21:31,930 --> 00:21:34,400
Speaker 1: something wrong here. So, Just talk a little bit about

457
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,320
Speaker 1: that and then maybe give us a, I don't know,

458
00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:37,660
Speaker 1: you don't.

459
00:21:37,580 --> 00:21:38,780
Speaker 2: Want to do spoiler alert.

460
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,659
Speaker 1: So, you know, just give people a little bit of

461
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:43,920
Speaker 1: a teaser of the book and what you're talking about there.

462
00:21:44,369 --> 00:21:44,790
Speaker 3: Yeah.

463
00:21:44,869 --> 00:21:47,990
Speaker 4: So like, oh man, there's a lot of hard stories

464
00:21:48,030 --> 00:21:51,250
Speaker 4: in the book. But if I'm going to go back

465
00:21:51,310 --> 00:21:53,670
Speaker 4: and get one that's not in the book, like.

466
00:21:54,650 --> 00:21:57,949
Speaker 3: Within four years.

467
00:21:58,250 --> 00:22:01,730
Speaker 4: So me and my wife Priscilla got married. Her dad

468
00:22:01,790 --> 00:22:03,949
Speaker 4: was fighting cancer at the time. I didn't know my

469
00:22:04,030 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 4: mom had cancer at the time. And we lost my mom,

470
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:13,700
Speaker 4: her dad. We had a miscarriage. Her aunt and my

471
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 4: aunt and my sister had disappeared but had since.

472
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,540
Speaker 3: Like, re-ended our life. All of that happened in the

473
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:21,400
Speaker 3: span of five years.

474
00:22:21,940 --> 00:22:22,400
Speaker 2: From 2012 to 2016.

475
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 4: And that was deeply disorienting. But I had no skills

476
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:34,100
Speaker 4: to deal with those things.

477
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,820
Speaker 3: No skills. I dealt with things with more effort.

478
00:22:38,060 --> 00:22:40,540
Speaker 4: I will just be superhuman.

479
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,500
Speaker 3: That is what we do. We double down.

480
00:22:43,700 --> 00:22:48,110
Speaker 4: That's not possible when there's no reserves there. And that's

481
00:22:48,140 --> 00:22:50,090
Speaker 4: not even talking about the social unrest of the time.

482
00:22:50,290 --> 00:22:53,149
Speaker 4: We're not even talking about the ascendance of Trump and

483
00:22:53,190 --> 00:22:55,990
Speaker 4: Black Lives Matter and just all of a sudden recounting

484
00:22:56,030 --> 00:22:59,050
Speaker 4: police shootings and the ascendance of racialized violence.

485
00:22:59,070 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 3: We're not talking about any of that. Right. So like

486
00:23:02,540 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 3: I burned out before COVID. I burned out before.

487
00:23:07,820 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 2: And then you had COVID.

488
00:23:09,020 --> 00:23:12,610
Speaker 3: And then we had COVID and a second child. Like

489
00:23:12,700 --> 00:23:15,490
Speaker 3: it was, it was, none of this was helpful. You

490
00:23:15,510 --> 00:23:20,109
Speaker 3: know what I mean? And, and so I remember, and

491
00:23:20,230 --> 00:23:21,550
Speaker 3: I did write about this in the book.

492
00:23:21,590 --> 00:23:26,450
Speaker 4: Like I remember holding my kid being on sabbatical and

493
00:23:26,650 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 4: protests are happening. I get this phone call. They're like, Jonathan,

494
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,160
Speaker 4: Can you come lead this prayer meeting in Times Square? Like,

495
00:23:33,180 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 4: we're all marching from these five points to meet there.

496
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 4: And like, we need these leaders on stage. And I said, no,

497
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,889
Speaker 4: I'm on sabbatical. And I hung up the phone and

498
00:23:45,990 --> 00:23:48,750
Speaker 4: I went back to holding my kid. And I was like,

499
00:23:49,010 --> 00:23:54,540
Speaker 4: what the? Jesus, you know, if this is the draft,

500
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:56,679
Speaker 4: I just got put on the bench.

501
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 3: I'm not going to get signed. My career is over.

502
00:23:59,420 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 3: That's the story I'm telling myself. Yeah, yeah. Which is

503
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,010
Speaker 3: just not true. But I deeply believe that.

504
00:24:06,430 --> 00:24:10,949
Speaker 4: That if I'm at home holding my kid, being faithful

505
00:24:10,970 --> 00:24:12,770
Speaker 4: to being a dad, being faithful to being a husband,

506
00:24:12,810 --> 00:24:18,060
Speaker 4: being faithful to my lot today, that somehow I'm missing

507
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:19,340
Speaker 4: out on something else.

508
00:24:20,060 --> 00:24:23,940
Speaker 3: And when we follow Jesus, we don't miss out. We

509
00:24:24,010 --> 00:24:24,570
Speaker 3: have God.

510
00:24:25,450 --> 00:24:28,250
Speaker 4: And like that is, I learned a lot of that

511
00:24:28,770 --> 00:24:32,060
Speaker 4: during that time. And we had another kid in 2020,

512
00:24:32,050 --> 00:24:33,390
Speaker 4: another non-eventful year.

513
00:24:34,590 --> 00:24:35,699
Speaker 3: So my kids are.

514
00:24:35,670 --> 00:24:39,540
Speaker 2: Born in 2020. I don't remember anything happening in 2020.

515
00:24:39,540 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 3: My kids are born in 2016 and 2020. Just fun times.

516
00:24:45,100 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 4: And so like writing and processing that stuff, um you

517
00:24:50,580 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 4: know death loss and then collective death and loss like

518
00:24:54,660 --> 00:24:58,580
Speaker 4: sure i i think there's there's something deep within us

519
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:05,179
Speaker 4: that's unlocked when we grieve and you know empathy i

520
00:25:05,510 --> 00:25:08,970
Speaker 4: have this like hierarchy where it's like pity sympathy empathy

521
00:25:09,350 --> 00:25:13,409
Speaker 4: a compassionate incarnation and like god is not calling us

522
00:25:13,430 --> 00:25:18,050
Speaker 4: to incarnate everywhere we're not omnipresent you know right but

523
00:25:18,450 --> 00:25:22,330
Speaker 4: we like when we hear and see something we should

524
00:25:22,369 --> 00:25:25,250
Speaker 4: be sparked to mourn we should be sparked to rejoice

525
00:25:25,290 --> 00:25:28,469
Speaker 4: so just pity like just feel sorry you know and

526
00:25:28,510 --> 00:25:31,330
Speaker 4: like and that i think when when we actually get

527
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:33,350
Speaker 4: in touch with our own grief and incarnate around us

528
00:25:33,410 --> 00:25:37,090
Speaker 4: that actually unlocks it for anybody around the corner around

529
00:25:37,109 --> 00:25:39,369
Speaker 4: the world you know what i mean yeah um but

530
00:25:39,410 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 4: i think that would be the thing that isn't in

531
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,160
Speaker 4: the book in like a huge way, but man, like

532
00:25:44,260 --> 00:25:46,659
Speaker 4: when you can actually enter into grief and suffering in

533
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:48,210
Speaker 4: your own life, it actually allows.

534
00:25:47,970 --> 00:25:50,150
Speaker 3: You to do that with, with, with other people.

535
00:25:51,330 --> 00:25:51,790
Speaker 2: Yeah.

536
00:25:52,330 --> 00:25:53,949
Speaker 1: I've had a number of people on the podcast talk

537
00:25:53,970 --> 00:25:56,410
Speaker 1: about lament in scripture. So a lot of old tests,

538
00:25:56,470 --> 00:25:58,169
Speaker 1: I'm an old Testament geek. So I have old Testament

539
00:25:58,190 --> 00:26:01,449
Speaker 1: geeks on and they, when they talk about lament, you know,

540
00:26:01,490 --> 00:26:03,540
Speaker 1: one of the things we try to process is, you know,

541
00:26:03,580 --> 00:26:06,540
Speaker 1: what's the practice of lament today. And when we see

542
00:26:06,619 --> 00:26:09,159
Speaker 1: Paul talking about, you know, one member of the body hurts,

543
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,910
Speaker 1: all the members of the body hurt. We don't really

544
00:26:12,030 --> 00:26:14,590
Speaker 1: practice that. We tend to be a little bit more

545
00:26:14,890 --> 00:26:19,050
Speaker 1: distant with our emotions and with others and say, well,

546
00:26:19,070 --> 00:26:22,780
Speaker 1: that's not affecting me. And so I guess it doesn't

547
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,619
Speaker 1: really matter to me. The reality is that when we

548
00:26:25,660 --> 00:26:28,580
Speaker 1: see brothers and sisters in Christ mourning, whether we agree

549
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,379
Speaker 1: with why they're mourning or not, or whether we think

550
00:26:30,420 --> 00:26:32,580
Speaker 1: it's a big deal, like those things sort of should

551
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:34,700
Speaker 1: probably go out the window and just sit back and say,

552
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 1: I feel bad that they feel bad.

553
00:26:37,430 --> 00:26:37,650
Speaker 3: Yes.

554
00:26:38,090 --> 00:26:40,389
Speaker 2: You know, at the minimal level, I feel bad that

555
00:26:40,410 --> 00:26:42,550
Speaker 2: they feel bad. Yes.

556
00:26:42,830 --> 00:26:43,050
Speaker 5: Yes.

557
00:26:43,369 --> 00:26:45,750
Speaker 4: And you know, if we're going to like put that

558
00:26:45,810 --> 00:26:48,050
Speaker 4: into a disciple, so somebody just heard that and they're.

559
00:26:47,930 --> 00:26:49,150
Speaker 3: Like, Oh, I don't know how to do that. Right.

560
00:26:49,430 --> 00:26:51,410
Speaker 3: So like, let's break it down. Right.

561
00:26:51,450 --> 00:26:56,409
Speaker 4: So I, I am able by God's grace because I'm

562
00:26:56,470 --> 00:26:59,210
Speaker 4: in touch with my own pain to empathize with my enemy.

563
00:26:59,950 --> 00:27:00,190
Speaker 2: Right.

564
00:27:00,650 --> 00:27:03,490
Speaker 4: So I was, I was on, I was online a

565
00:27:03,650 --> 00:27:07,430
Speaker 4: couple of days ago and I wrote something about, Um,

566
00:27:08,369 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 4: and someone posted, oh, like these, like they were talking about, um,

567
00:27:15,020 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 4: Lindsey Graham, Lindsey Graham, Senator in the United States, um,

568
00:27:19,340 --> 00:27:20,899
Speaker 4: was talking about something.

569
00:27:20,940 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 3: I don't know what it was right now, but, oh,

570
00:27:23,220 --> 00:27:26,770
Speaker 3: it's Israel and Gaza. So Lindsey Graham was explaining that,

571
00:27:27,070 --> 00:27:30,929
Speaker 3: you know, whoever curses Israel is, will be cursed by God.

572
00:27:31,190 --> 00:27:32,610
Speaker 3: We must support Israel.

573
00:27:33,670 --> 00:27:38,129
Speaker 4: And someone in the comments just came for him. And

574
00:27:38,170 --> 00:27:42,970
Speaker 4: they said, this stupid, ignorant, boneheaded person. And I'm like,

575
00:27:44,390 --> 00:27:45,540
Speaker 4: Lindsey Graham's not a bonehead.

576
00:27:46,260 --> 00:27:46,500
Speaker 1: Right.

577
00:27:47,180 --> 00:27:49,540
Speaker 3: He's deceived. Yeah.

578
00:27:49,740 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 4: Because I've been deceived before.

579
00:27:52,619 --> 00:27:57,820
Speaker 3: I lived in patriarchy. I've exploited people with my purchase.

580
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,010
Speaker 3: I'm aware that I'm complicit with lots of things. And

581
00:28:01,109 --> 00:28:03,190
Speaker 3: so I am no better than Lindsey Graham.

582
00:28:04,500 --> 00:28:07,060
Speaker 4: If I really want to live out Romans 3.23, all

583
00:28:07,100 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 4: have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God,

584
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,900
Speaker 4: if I really want to jump into what it looks

585
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 4: like to love my neighbor as myself, and literally the

586
00:28:14,180 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 4: Sermon on the Mount to bless my enemies, then I

587
00:28:15,740 --> 00:28:19,140
Speaker 4: can't dehumanize Lindsey Graham or Ted Cruz or Tucker Carlson

588
00:28:19,180 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 4: or that article was highlighting them.

589
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 3: And I can't do that.

590
00:28:24,300 --> 00:28:26,980
Speaker 4: If we're going to show empathy, we've got to break

591
00:28:27,020 --> 00:28:32,990
Speaker 4: it down, right? So individual, intimate, interpersonal, institutional, ideological, right?

592
00:28:33,010 --> 00:28:33,090
Speaker 2: Yeah.

593
00:28:33,490 --> 00:28:35,830
Speaker 4: I'm like, let's, let's just, let's not say I got

594
00:28:35,850 --> 00:28:39,260
Speaker 4: to empathize with everybody. Most people, they start off intimate.

595
00:28:39,340 --> 00:28:40,700
Speaker 4: They say, who lives in my house?

596
00:28:41,260 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

597
00:28:41,540 --> 00:28:43,620
Speaker 4: I'm not going to shut down my kids' feelings when

598
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,260
Speaker 4: their toy gets stolen. I'm not going to shut down

599
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,540
Speaker 4: my mom who just called me because, you know, she,

600
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:51,860
Speaker 4: she lost a friend. I'm not, I'm not going to like,

601
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 4: I'm going to practice being present with people's pain in

602
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:56,900
Speaker 4: my own life for six months.

603
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:57,620
Speaker 2: Yeah.

604
00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,980
Speaker 3: Right. And then just say, okay, so what, what practice

605
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,220
Speaker 3: are you going to build around that? Okay. Like, I

606
00:29:02,260 --> 00:29:04,140
Speaker 3: got to set aside an hour to check in with

607
00:29:04,180 --> 00:29:06,260
Speaker 3: this person. Okay. What meditations are you going to do?

608
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,580
Speaker 3: I'm going to read these three scriptures. Okay.

609
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 4: What two things do you need to remember? And then

610
00:29:10,500 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 4: what's your step? You know, like we help people do that.

611
00:29:12,780 --> 00:29:14,900
Speaker 4: So the empathy moves from an idea to like how

612
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:19,010
Speaker 4: you're exercising it in your life, which then your spiritual formation,

613
00:29:19,130 --> 00:29:22,290
Speaker 4: you moving towards wholeness actually means you have a more

614
00:29:22,330 --> 00:29:23,190
Speaker 4: fruitful community.

615
00:29:23,950 --> 00:29:24,090
Speaker 3: Yeah.

616
00:29:24,130 --> 00:29:27,490
Speaker 4: That's, that's the, that's the, my hope would be for

617
00:29:27,530 --> 00:29:30,930
Speaker 4: people reading the book and any concept that you're bringing up, like,

618
00:29:31,430 --> 00:29:32,410
Speaker 4: We just brought up empathy.

619
00:29:32,470 --> 00:29:35,220
Speaker 3: Like, how do we make it practical for people? Right, right.

620
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 3: Because that's the work of discipleship.

621
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I actually liked it. was dope right it was.

622
00:29:40,940 --> 00:29:45,220
Speaker 1: Yeah I thought that was imminently practical and you know

623
00:29:45,260 --> 00:29:48,300
Speaker 1: I sat there I read through it I'm like I

624
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,940
Speaker 1: wonder why I don't do this it seems like it

625
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,940
Speaker 1: would be really helpful to do I you know I

626
00:29:54,370 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: don't I don't think that way.

627
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,660
Speaker 2: I mean, I kind of plan week to week, I suppose,

628
00:29:58,740 --> 00:29:59,740
Speaker 2: but yeah.

629
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,050
Speaker 1: So explain it a little bit and just give it a,

630
00:30:02,260 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: you know, give that practical approach you've got.

631
00:30:04,530 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 3: For sure.

632
00:30:05,010 --> 00:30:05,370
Speaker 2: For sure.

633
00:30:05,420 --> 00:30:07,230
Speaker 4: So like, I'll tell you why you don't do it.

634
00:30:07,230 --> 00:30:09,830
Speaker 4: Cause I don't want to do it. My wife, I'm not.

635
00:30:09,710 --> 00:30:15,330
Speaker 5: Interested in planning anything, you know, but she's like, I

636
00:30:15,410 --> 00:30:19,410
Speaker 5: think she mitigates the chaos that my life would be

637
00:30:19,970 --> 00:30:20,610
Speaker 5: by planning.

638
00:30:20,870 --> 00:30:24,370
Speaker 4: So she can literally say, Jonathan, like, you said these

639
00:30:24,410 --> 00:30:27,150
Speaker 4: were the four weekends we're going hiking. You can't do

640
00:30:27,190 --> 00:30:27,930
Speaker 4: anything on the weekends.

641
00:30:28,030 --> 00:30:30,610
Speaker 3: She can always go back. And I'm like, you're right.

642
00:30:32,030 --> 00:30:35,810
Speaker 4: But she, you know, we, we all, we all carry

643
00:30:35,890 --> 00:30:37,290
Speaker 4: different gifts and liabilities.

644
00:30:37,590 --> 00:30:40,530
Speaker 3: And my wife, one of them is planning. And for me,

645
00:30:40,590 --> 00:30:43,990
Speaker 3: it's like, I'm totally fine with chaos. Right. And so.

646
00:30:46,270 --> 00:30:50,890
Speaker 4: Dope day basically came up because Priscilla was like, Jonathan,

647
00:30:50,950 --> 00:30:51,790
Speaker 4: we need margin.

648
00:30:51,830 --> 00:30:54,710
Speaker 3: And I'm like, Oh, we'll take Sabbath. She goes, no, no, no, no, no. Like,

649
00:30:55,030 --> 00:30:57,410
Speaker 3: she's like, Sabbath is the minimum. And I'm like, what?

650
00:30:58,110 --> 00:31:00,450
Speaker 3: There's no commitment. Okay, I hear you. She's like, Sabbath

651
00:31:00,490 --> 00:31:03,350
Speaker 3: is the minimum. Like, how do we like build in

652
00:31:03,390 --> 00:31:06,030
Speaker 3: these rhythms? She goes, go read your own stuff. I'm like,

653
00:31:06,050 --> 00:31:08,150
Speaker 3: all right, I hear you. Go read. She's like, you know.

654
00:31:08,690 --> 00:31:13,670
Speaker 3: And so we built out these rhythms before work, right?

655
00:31:13,730 --> 00:31:17,780
Speaker 3: Like literally setting out the Sabbath, setting out family vacations,

656
00:31:18,210 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 3: setting out.

657
00:31:18,730 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 4: Birthdays, setting all these different things. and then putting everything

658
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,070
Speaker 4: else around it. That is a hyper reversal for me

659
00:31:26,270 --> 00:31:30,850
Speaker 4: of like, I'm like, I don't like to hike. Like

660
00:31:30,910 --> 00:31:32,750
Speaker 4: I grew up in the country, right? A farm in

661
00:31:32,790 --> 00:31:35,410
Speaker 4: South side, Virginia. She was like, we're going to go hike.

662
00:31:35,430 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 4: And I'm like, why are we walking outside? Like that's

663
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 4: work for me. I'm like walking the land to make

664
00:31:39,660 --> 00:31:42,459
Speaker 4: sure like cows are good.

665
00:31:43,300 --> 00:31:46,100
Speaker 3: I've been working my whole life to be comfortable indoors.

666
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,330
Speaker 2: So anyway.

667
00:31:48,930 --> 00:31:52,950
Speaker 4: All that to say, we sit down in January, we

668
00:31:53,270 --> 00:31:55,910
Speaker 4: try to get, we get childcare, you know, we get,

669
00:31:56,450 --> 00:31:58,660
Speaker 4: you know, can we get our budget for the year straight?

670
00:31:58,820 --> 00:32:00,660
Speaker 3: How much are we going to give? Cause like, that's

671
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 3: the other thing. We say no to a lot of

672
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:04,860
Speaker 3: things with no plan.

673
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,340
Speaker 2: Like, so that's the cool thing, right?

674
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,260
Speaker 4: If someone says like, Hey, can you give a hundred

675
00:32:10,300 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 4: dollars to this? I can't tell you that without a budget.

676
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,750
Speaker 4: Otherwise I'm really just telling you based on how I feel,

677
00:32:16,990 --> 00:32:19,610
Speaker 4: you know? So like, I know we're going to tie

678
00:32:19,630 --> 00:32:22,490
Speaker 4: at 10%. I know we're going to give this amount

679
00:32:22,530 --> 00:32:24,210
Speaker 4: of money. I know the extra money.

680
00:32:24,070 --> 00:32:27,750
Speaker 3: That we have. So when I say no, I feel

681
00:32:27,770 --> 00:32:32,410
Speaker 3: like I'm being obedient, not just impulsive. You know what

682
00:32:32,430 --> 00:32:32,710
Speaker 3: I mean?

683
00:32:32,730 --> 00:32:36,950
Speaker 4: Same thing with impulse buys and all those kinds of things.

684
00:32:36,990 --> 00:32:40,190
Speaker 3: But Dope Day helps us set our priorities for the year.

685
00:32:41,730 --> 00:32:45,860
Speaker 3: And we've done it three years straight, which has been good. So, yeah.

686
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 2: It's good. I will admit I am not a planner either.

687
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: But I've gotten kind of good at and I say

688
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: kind of good because.

689
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:56,740
Speaker 2: It isn't without difficulty.

690
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,610
Speaker 1: But like, you know, I decided for a while there,

691
00:32:59,620 --> 00:33:00,930
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm not going to miss any of my

692
00:33:00,970 --> 00:33:01,850
Speaker 1: girls lacrosse games.

693
00:33:02,330 --> 00:33:03,270
Speaker 3: Yeah.

694
00:33:03,490 --> 00:33:05,610
Speaker 1: Like I only have them for four years. Now it

695
00:33:05,630 --> 00:33:07,350
Speaker 1: turns out they're going to play in college. So we'll

696
00:33:07,370 --> 00:33:10,230
Speaker 1: have them for another four. But basically what I do

697
00:33:10,250 --> 00:33:12,650
Speaker 1: when their schedule comes out, I just sort of put

698
00:33:12,690 --> 00:33:15,230
Speaker 1: it all in my calendar, block it all off and

699
00:33:15,290 --> 00:33:18,210
Speaker 1: just say, like, I'm not I'm not going to take meetings.

700
00:33:18,270 --> 00:33:20,310
Speaker 2: I'm not going to be gone. I'm not you know,

701
00:33:20,390 --> 00:33:22,450
Speaker 2: like these days are just off for me. I can't

702
00:33:22,790 --> 00:33:23,370
Speaker 2: I can't do it.

703
00:33:23,970 --> 00:33:27,060
Speaker 1: So, you know, I'll still work, but I'm not I'm

704
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:28,970
Speaker 1: not going to be in a place where I have

705
00:33:28,990 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: to miss those games. Yeah. And so I've been getting

706
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: better at those kind of things. And I think I've

707
00:33:35,780 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: I've also had the practice, you know, you mentioned impulse shopping.

708
00:33:39,190 --> 00:33:42,270
Speaker 1: Amazon's rough for that. But what I started doing was,

709
00:33:42,310 --> 00:33:43,570
Speaker 1: you know, if I really feel like I got to

710
00:33:43,630 --> 00:33:45,709
Speaker 1: click something, I just put in my list. So now

711
00:33:45,730 --> 00:33:47,350
Speaker 1: I have a list of books. Then when I go

712
00:33:47,390 --> 00:33:48,870
Speaker 1: back to them, I'm like, why would I have ever

713
00:33:48,910 --> 00:33:49,490
Speaker 1: wanted that book?

714
00:33:49,950 --> 00:33:53,470
Speaker 3: Right. Yeah. Right. It's true. It saved me.

715
00:33:53,510 --> 00:33:56,090
Speaker 2: The list function saves me tons of money. Right.

716
00:33:57,410 --> 00:33:59,890
Speaker 1: I want to circle back around to something though. So

717
00:33:59,910 --> 00:34:04,130
Speaker 1: you got dope day, this day of planning. You also

718
00:34:04,310 --> 00:34:07,740
Speaker 1: though in the book, you know, you're, It seems like

719
00:34:07,820 --> 00:34:11,700
Speaker 1: there's just an intentionality to the approach that you're advocating for.

720
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,580
Speaker 1: But when I've heard you sort of talk about things

721
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,540
Speaker 1: in other places, you talk about how that emerges from

722
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: who we are. And so I just want to kind

723
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,140
Speaker 1: of key in on that because I think that's a

724
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: really crucial aspect. This is not about time management. This

725
00:34:26,540 --> 00:34:29,540
Speaker 1: isn't about, you know, quote unquote, setting priorities or something

726
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 1: like that. This is actually a living into a conviction.

727
00:34:33,620 --> 00:34:34,299
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

728
00:34:34,340 --> 00:34:39,049
Speaker 4: So I think it's Ephesians 2. We are his workmanship.

729
00:34:39,570 --> 00:34:44,050
Speaker 4: We are Christ's workmanship. First and second, Peter talks about

730
00:34:44,090 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 4: we want to be like living stones. I don't believe

731
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:54,980
Speaker 4: that we can't do things because we don't have skills.

732
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 4: I actually think we can't do things a lot of

733
00:34:57,620 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 4: times because we're just literally not that person.

734
00:34:59,700 --> 00:35:04,180
Speaker 3: I can't dunk. It wouldn't matter how much work I

735
00:35:04,219 --> 00:35:04,460
Speaker 3: put in.

736
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,100
Speaker 4: You know what I mean like it's not happening for

737
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:11,690
Speaker 4: me but that's fortunately like literally it says physical training

738
00:35:11,750 --> 00:35:14,850
Speaker 4: is good for something spiritual training is good for all

739
00:35:14,870 --> 00:35:16,930
Speaker 4: things right so I'm like great I can be all things.

740
00:35:16,810 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 3: In Jesus so but someone said to me they're like

741
00:35:21,700 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 3: oh like why don't we see miracles I was like

742
00:35:23,620 --> 00:35:25,420
Speaker 3: but when was the last time you prayed for one

743
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:26,540
Speaker 3: like did you.

744
00:35:26,460 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 4: Stand in front of 50 people saying that God was

745
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 4: terrible and called down fire from heaven you haven't done

746
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,510
Speaker 4: that recently Like, you can't have a conversation with your father.

747
00:35:35,790 --> 00:35:36,310
Speaker 3: I don't know.

748
00:35:36,410 --> 00:35:39,489
Speaker 4: Like, maybe you should ask for a miracle at Thanksgiving.

749
00:35:39,930 --> 00:35:43,859
Speaker 4: You know what I mean? And so, like, I think

750
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,819
Speaker 4: that in the book, I try to talk about a lot,

751
00:35:47,940 --> 00:35:50,020
Speaker 4: particularly chapter one, because that was the one me and

752
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:54,860
Speaker 4: Priscilla worked on together. Like, I have problems with intimacy.

753
00:35:55,739 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 4: I have problems with connecting with people. I have wounds from.

754
00:35:59,450 --> 00:36:01,989
Speaker 3: My dad and my mom. I feel terrible.

755
00:36:02,210 --> 00:36:05,790
Speaker 4: Deeply insecure the majority of the time like it doesn't

756
00:36:06,350 --> 00:36:09,410
Speaker 4: really take a lot for me to question like oh

757
00:36:09,450 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 4: like am i as cool as james like when these

758
00:36:12,739 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 4: videos show up side by side like will will it

759
00:36:15,340 --> 00:36:16,060
Speaker 4: look like you.

760
00:36:15,980 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 3: Know what i mean like yeah like oh like did

761
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,830
Speaker 3: his book sell more like like those all those things

762
00:36:22,950 --> 00:36:27,930
Speaker 3: could happen right yeah but i literally have to layer

763
00:36:28,070 --> 00:36:31,170
Speaker 3: in in the book about scaffolding like my thoughts, my

764
00:36:31,310 --> 00:36:35,469
Speaker 3: actions in these daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, annual times that

765
00:36:35,489 --> 00:36:38,189
Speaker 3: will help ground me when my feelings come.

766
00:36:38,830 --> 00:36:43,110
Speaker 4: Because our feelings are not reality. I may feel apart

767
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:48,620
Speaker 4: from God. His word says he's never left me. So

768
00:36:49,140 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 4: I think layering those things in has helped me immensely.

769
00:36:53,100 --> 00:36:57,290
Speaker 4: And I have started to change. So one of the

770
00:36:57,350 --> 00:37:00,939
Speaker 4: things I talk about in the book is like, I

771
00:37:02,900 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 4: don't know how to say this in a cool way.

772
00:37:04,500 --> 00:37:09,629
Speaker 4: I peed blood in 2023.

773
00:37:09,630 --> 00:37:10,969
Speaker 3: We could not figure out why.

774
00:37:12,310 --> 00:37:17,530
Speaker 4: I couldn't figure out why. Maybe four or five months ago,

775
00:37:19,710 --> 00:37:21,910
Speaker 4: my stomach just started hurting really, really bad.

776
00:37:21,930 --> 00:37:25,100
Speaker 3: I was like, what is happening?

777
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,060
Speaker 4: Then I asked myself, I was like, oh, In 2023,

778
00:37:29,060 --> 00:37:33,260
Speaker 4: I had this thing happen. I didn't know what it was.

779
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:38,800
Speaker 4: I was really stressed out in 2023. And so I'm like, oh, okay.

780
00:37:39,460 --> 00:37:40,240
Speaker 3: Is this stress?

781
00:37:41,489 --> 00:37:45,810
Speaker 4: I had hip surgery six months in May. So I

782
00:37:45,850 --> 00:37:49,190
Speaker 4: was injured before that, like the pain to walk around.

783
00:37:49,210 --> 00:37:53,750
Speaker 4: The work that I do within Arasi, I'm fundraising. We're

784
00:37:53,790 --> 00:37:56,730
Speaker 4: shutting down a publishing company that wasn't as successful as

785
00:37:56,750 --> 00:38:00,950
Speaker 4: we wanted it to be. Me and Priscilla, marriage has cycles.

786
00:38:00,969 --> 00:38:02,569
Speaker 4: There are things that go really well and there's things

787
00:38:02,590 --> 00:38:03,189
Speaker 4: that go tough.

788
00:38:03,550 --> 00:38:07,290
Speaker 3: And so I'm like, oh, I'm stressed out. Right.

789
00:38:07,810 --> 00:38:14,439
Speaker 4: So the, like I was in 2023, my brain went

790
00:38:14,500 --> 00:38:16,180
Speaker 4: haywire when these things happened.

791
00:38:17,140 --> 00:38:20,879
Speaker 3: In 2026, I'm not the same person. Yeah. Like, oh, okay.

792
00:38:20,940 --> 00:38:23,810
Speaker 3: Something's off. Let me go look at our schedule. Let

793
00:38:23,830 --> 00:38:24,990
Speaker 3: me go figure out what's happening.

794
00:38:25,010 --> 00:38:25,090
Speaker 1: Okay.

795
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 4: Let me take the time to go to the doctor.

796
00:38:27,260 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 4: Let me actually take my vacation days. Let me actually

797
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:31,180
Speaker 4: step back. You know what I mean?

798
00:38:31,660 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 3: Right. Cause I'm a different person.

799
00:38:34,180 --> 00:38:38,380
Speaker 4: We can't like the reason we say like when pigs flies,

800
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 4: because we know pigs don't fly.

801
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:40,980
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?

802
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,180
Speaker 4: Um, and so one of the stories I tell in

803
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,700
Speaker 4: the book is like, when I first started getting serious

804
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,380
Speaker 4: about Sabbath, my alumni, one of them was there at

805
00:38:50,420 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 4: our program and.

806
00:38:51,739 --> 00:38:53,459
Speaker 3: He came to me, he pulled me to the side.

807
00:38:53,500 --> 00:38:57,850
Speaker 3: He's like, Hey, um, it's like the middle of the day,

808
00:38:58,290 --> 00:39:00,590
Speaker 3: the third day of the program, like, y'all taking a

809
00:39:00,590 --> 00:39:02,129
Speaker 3: retreat of silence? I'm like, yeah.

810
00:39:02,670 --> 00:39:03,910
Speaker 4: It's the hinge of the week, so they're going to

811
00:39:03,950 --> 00:39:05,980
Speaker 4: reflect for like six hours and we'll come back together.

812
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:07,879
Speaker 3: They're like, but there's so many people.

813
00:39:07,900 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 4: Jonathan, you just said there's 50,000 unhoused people in New

814
00:39:11,219 --> 00:39:13,500
Speaker 4: York City, 3,000 people on the streets right now, like,

815
00:39:13,580 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 4: and we're going to.

816
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:18,819
Speaker 3: Pray and sit? And I was like, yeah. He goes,

817
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,310
Speaker 3: that was just, he goes, that just wasn't what we

818
00:39:21,330 --> 00:39:23,069
Speaker 3: did four years ago. I said, I know I was

819
00:39:23,110 --> 00:39:25,850
Speaker 3: a different person four years ago. And I said, I'm

820
00:39:25,989 --> 00:39:29,940
Speaker 3: really sorry that I passed on that toxic cocktail of

821
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 3: theology to you. You should take a retreat. Do you

822
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 3: have six hours? And he stayed with us. You know

823
00:39:35,219 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 3: what I mean?

824
00:39:35,739 --> 00:39:39,500
Speaker 4: So we have to become different people. Because Ephesians 2,

825
00:39:39,500 --> 00:39:42,490
Speaker 4: we're being worked on so that we can be.

826
00:39:42,690 --> 00:39:45,630
Speaker 3: These living stones, these living witnesses that Jesus calls.

827
00:39:45,450 --> 00:39:48,870
Speaker 2: Us to be. I'll say, man, it really resonates with me.

828
00:39:48,890 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 1: It's one of the passages I've been reflecting on lately

829
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:52,140
Speaker 1: is Hebrews 5.14.

830
00:39:52,140 --> 00:39:53,940
Speaker 2: It's that one.

831
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 1: It's usually translated, you know, we've been trained by constant

832
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,660
Speaker 1: practice into maturity so that we can discern good and evil.

833
00:40:01,420 --> 00:40:04,670
Speaker 1: But in the Greek, it's that the word hexis, which

834
00:40:04,710 --> 00:40:07,850
Speaker 1: is usually translated and affiliated with training, it really refers

835
00:40:07,930 --> 00:40:11,450
Speaker 1: to a mature state that we've already attained that allows

836
00:40:11,530 --> 00:40:13,530
Speaker 1: us to discern good and evil. And so what Hebrews

837
00:40:13,590 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: is focusing on is this mature state that we enter into.

838
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,140
Speaker 1: That gives us the perspective to understand which way to

839
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 1: go and which way not to go. So it's a

840
00:40:22,430 --> 00:40:26,410
Speaker 1: slightly different nuance. And I think that just as I

841
00:40:26,450 --> 00:40:31,589
Speaker 1: reflect back on my life, the spiritual disciplines have always

842
00:40:31,630 --> 00:40:33,910
Speaker 1: sort of been a part of it. But I wouldn't

843
00:40:34,050 --> 00:40:35,970
Speaker 1: look back and go, hey, you know what it was

844
00:40:36,010 --> 00:40:39,210
Speaker 1: that really allowed me to mature? It was this time

845
00:40:39,250 --> 00:40:41,530
Speaker 1: in prayer, this time in Bible study, this time in whatever.

846
00:40:41,550 --> 00:40:43,670
Speaker 2: It wasn't that I worked myself toward it. Right.

847
00:40:44,540 --> 00:40:48,219
Speaker 1: It was that you have these moments where people say

848
00:40:48,260 --> 00:40:51,170
Speaker 1: a word to you, you have a crisis, you know,

849
00:40:51,210 --> 00:40:55,989
Speaker 1: of some sort and it transforms you without you even

850
00:40:56,170 --> 00:40:59,430
Speaker 1: trying to be transformed almost, right? Like you wouldn't have

851
00:40:59,450 --> 00:41:02,240
Speaker 1: gone this direction if someone hadn't shoved you in that direction.

852
00:41:02,260 --> 00:41:02,720
Speaker 3: Right.

853
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 1: And I think at least in my life, and it

854
00:41:05,420 --> 00:41:08,100
Speaker 1: sounds like we have some similarities in common, right?

855
00:41:08,940 --> 00:41:11,330
Speaker 2: But, I think at least in my life, I needed.

856
00:41:11,090 --> 00:41:14,750
Speaker 1: Those pushes to become sort of almost level up and

857
00:41:14,790 --> 00:41:18,189
Speaker 1: become that different person who now is no longer going

858
00:41:18,210 --> 00:41:20,489
Speaker 1: to be running, you know, 120 miles an hour with

859
00:41:20,530 --> 00:41:22,779
Speaker 1: my hair on fire. Like it's just not, I'm not

860
00:41:22,820 --> 00:41:26,980
Speaker 1: doing that anymore. I don't think it's just age either.

861
00:41:27,020 --> 00:41:28,859
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, I get, that gets pinned

862
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 1: on me an awful lot. Like when I talk about this,

863
00:41:30,780 --> 00:41:33,410
Speaker 1: it's like, well, you've gotten older. Yes, I've gotten older,

864
00:41:33,890 --> 00:41:36,690
Speaker 1: but the age isn't the problem. It's the experiences that

865
00:41:36,730 --> 00:41:39,910
Speaker 1: are the issue. It's the way life has unfolded that

866
00:41:39,930 --> 00:41:41,819
Speaker 1: has sort of brought me to this new place.

867
00:41:42,550 --> 00:41:44,750
Speaker 2: And over the next 20 years or 30 years.

868
00:41:44,590 --> 00:41:47,370
Speaker 1: Or however many I get, I'm sure I'll be a

869
00:41:47,430 --> 00:41:49,149
Speaker 1: different person then than I am now.

870
00:41:49,810 --> 00:41:51,930
Speaker 2: And it's just sort of interesting to think about that way.

871
00:41:52,370 --> 00:41:53,210
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.

872
00:41:53,350 --> 00:41:55,790
Speaker 4: And so that was one of the pushback pieces that

873
00:41:55,830 --> 00:41:56,770
Speaker 4: were in the book.

874
00:41:57,070 --> 00:41:59,230
Speaker 3: And any time we were doing.

875
00:41:59,110 --> 00:42:02,370
Speaker 4: Justice work pre the book, they'd be like, well, it's

876
00:42:02,390 --> 00:42:04,950
Speaker 4: because you're in New York or it's because you're older

877
00:42:04,969 --> 00:42:06,230
Speaker 4: or it's because you have this, you have this, you

878
00:42:06,250 --> 00:42:06,569
Speaker 4: have that.

879
00:42:06,730 --> 00:42:07,130
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.

880
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 4: And I was like, so I have a part of

881
00:42:10,020 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 4: them in the book about delight.

882
00:42:11,940 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: Right.

883
00:42:12,300 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 3: And like, yeah, because I, I, I write about like,

884
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:17,219
Speaker 3: I had never taken a vacation. So I got married.

885
00:42:17,469 --> 00:42:18,950
Speaker 3: My wife was like, we're going to go here. And

886
00:42:18,989 --> 00:42:20,310
Speaker 3: I'm like, what do you mean?

887
00:42:20,750 --> 00:42:22,350
Speaker 2: Just show up.

888
00:42:22,489 --> 00:42:25,069
Speaker 3: Yeah.

889
00:42:25,350 --> 00:42:26,969
Speaker 4: This should not have been a big deal, but it

890
00:42:27,010 --> 00:42:29,910
Speaker 4: really was. I literally told her, I said, so you

891
00:42:29,950 --> 00:42:31,610
Speaker 4: want like us to pay for this flight?

892
00:42:32,010 --> 00:42:33,860
Speaker 3: Like you want us to spend my own?

893
00:42:34,070 --> 00:42:37,529
Speaker 4: Cause like, I had never been anywhere where like I

894
00:42:37,570 --> 00:42:40,989
Speaker 4: wasn't going to work, you know? And so I'm like,

895
00:42:41,210 --> 00:42:43,130
Speaker 4: she goes, yeah, you like get a car, you get rewards,

896
00:42:43,150 --> 00:42:45,989
Speaker 4: like rewards. I was like, yeah, like people, but Priscilla,

897
00:42:46,050 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 4: it's not free. Like I've only gone home or gotten paid.

898
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:56,739
Speaker 3: Like I don't, yeah, it's ridiculous conversation. But, but all

899
00:42:56,780 --> 00:43:00,340
Speaker 3: that to say, like, um, I had, I tried.

900
00:43:00,140 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 4: To make sure that there were like these expensive examples

901
00:43:03,540 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 4: of And then these like free, these free ones.

902
00:43:06,660 --> 00:43:06,940
Speaker 1: Yeah.

903
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:09,610
Speaker 3: Like, just like you could go walk in the park.

904
00:43:10,410 --> 00:43:13,450
Speaker 4: You could go and have retreat of silence in, um,

905
00:43:14,390 --> 00:43:16,510
Speaker 4: like the, it's not the cost.

906
00:43:16,590 --> 00:43:19,150
Speaker 3: It's the, the intentionality, you know? Yeah.

907
00:43:19,250 --> 00:43:21,069
Speaker 4: And I, and I think my mama taught me that,

908
00:43:21,130 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 4: you know, I remember, um, in 2011 to 2015, we

909
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 4: were working on like what it looks like to fight

910
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:30,940
Speaker 4: sex trafficking and labor slavery in like a holistic way.

911
00:43:31,900 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 3: And, um, we were doing budgets.

912
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,470
Speaker 4: Like, okay, if you're going to get all organic food

913
00:43:37,590 --> 00:43:40,270
Speaker 4: or all fair trade desserts, all these different things on

914
00:43:40,930 --> 00:43:43,240
Speaker 4: a snap or food stamp budget, could you do it?

915
00:43:43,830 --> 00:43:44,109
Speaker 2: You know?

916
00:43:44,550 --> 00:43:45,890
Speaker 3: And so we're doing it in New York city.

917
00:43:47,010 --> 00:43:50,850
Speaker 4: And then I go home to Broadnax and my mom

918
00:43:51,110 --> 00:43:53,730
Speaker 4: was eating the same way on like $ 10, 000 a year.

919
00:43:54,810 --> 00:43:56,390
Speaker 4: And she was like, Oh yeah, well this farmer over

920
00:43:56,430 --> 00:43:57,450
Speaker 4: here and that farmer were there.

921
00:43:57,469 --> 00:44:00,219
Speaker 3: And like, I'm like, this is fascinating.

922
00:44:00,540 --> 00:44:03,500
Speaker 4: Like her income, allowed her to eat this way that

923
00:44:03,540 --> 00:44:05,350
Speaker 4: I had to create a program for to teach people

924
00:44:05,370 --> 00:44:08,230
Speaker 4: how to eat like in New York City. And so

925
00:44:08,290 --> 00:44:11,340
Speaker 4: it's just like, and like, you know, people are like, oh,

926
00:44:11,350 --> 00:44:14,110
Speaker 4: I got to go to this retreat center. It's like

927
00:44:14,110 --> 00:44:15,110
Speaker 4: $ 299 a night or whatever.

928
00:44:15,860 --> 00:44:16,990
Speaker 3: And I remember walking.

929
00:44:16,780 --> 00:44:19,460
Speaker 4: My mom and she was like, I said, mom, why

930
00:44:19,540 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 4: is there a bucket like 50 feet in that path?

931
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 3: And she goes, oh, I go sit on that bucket

932
00:44:26,100 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 3: and think. And I said, what?

933
00:44:30,030 --> 00:44:32,770
Speaker 4: And so I walked into the woods, I sat down,

934
00:44:32,810 --> 00:44:34,859
Speaker 4: I was like, she sits right here.

935
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:35,580
Speaker 2: Yeah.

936
00:44:36,980 --> 00:44:40,320
Speaker 3: And prays and talk. I was like, but that costs

937
00:44:40,420 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 3: her nothing. You know, but it's the intentionality.

938
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:47,779
Speaker 4: You know, Deuteronomy says like we seek, we find God

939
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 4: and we seek him with our whole hearts. And I

940
00:44:49,260 --> 00:44:51,010
Speaker 4: think that's what you're talking about with Hexis, right? Like

941
00:44:51,550 --> 00:44:54,370
Speaker 4: there's a, you know, Deuteronomy second giving of the law, right?

942
00:44:55,110 --> 00:44:57,009
Speaker 4: The first time the Ten Commandments came out, it's like,

943
00:44:57,050 --> 00:44:59,930
Speaker 4: this is what you should do, right? And then Deuteronomy

944
00:44:59,950 --> 00:45:01,569
Speaker 4: is like, this is what we do. Like the, the

945
00:45:01,630 --> 00:45:04,009
Speaker 4: tenses change and how they describe it. And in the

946
00:45:04,070 --> 00:45:07,700
Speaker 4: same way, it's like the thing that freed me from

947
00:45:07,739 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 4: pornography was realizing that I'm not that person. Like, I

948
00:45:14,820 --> 00:45:17,590
Speaker 4: just like, Oh, I'm not like, I am not that

949
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:18,410
Speaker 4: person anymore.

950
00:45:18,610 --> 00:45:20,810
Speaker 3: And I've always not been that person. As soon as

951
00:45:20,870 --> 00:45:23,890
Speaker 3: I decided to follow Jesus, like my righteousness is hidden

952
00:45:23,930 --> 00:45:24,310
Speaker 3: with him.

953
00:45:24,390 --> 00:45:26,770
Speaker 4: Like, he who knew no sin became sin for me

954
00:45:26,790 --> 00:45:28,589
Speaker 4: that I might become the righteousness of God. Oh, I'm

955
00:45:28,670 --> 00:45:32,010
Speaker 4: hidden within his righteousness. Righteous people don't export other people.

956
00:45:32,489 --> 00:45:33,149
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

957
00:45:33,170 --> 00:45:33,469
Speaker 1: You know?

958
00:45:33,590 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 4: And so like there there's, I think there is something

959
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,979
Speaker 4: transformative about, um, living out.

960
00:45:39,900 --> 00:45:41,320
Speaker 3: The maturity that we have been given.

961
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:42,180
Speaker 5: Yeah.

962
00:45:42,460 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 3: As best as we consciously can on this side of

963
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,580
Speaker 3: this side of heaven. So, so yeah, go sit on

964
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:49,910
Speaker 3: a bucket. People listen to it.

965
00:45:50,980 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. We're getting kind of close to the end.

966
00:45:53,700 --> 00:45:58,210
Speaker 1: I want to I want to ask one more question, because.

967
00:45:56,750 --> 00:45:57,650
Speaker 2: I just think it's interesting.

968
00:45:57,690 --> 00:46:00,169
Speaker 1: I mean, you're involved in a lot of what people

969
00:46:00,210 --> 00:46:02,450
Speaker 1: might call social justice or activist issues.

970
00:46:02,690 --> 00:46:02,890
Speaker 3: Right.

971
00:46:03,469 --> 00:46:05,569
Speaker 2: I don't know whether those terms are the greatest terms ever.

972
00:46:05,690 --> 00:46:08,029
Speaker 2: I almost try to stay away from them, but it's

973
00:46:08,050 --> 00:46:08,710
Speaker 2: the ones we got.

974
00:46:09,270 --> 00:46:09,550
Speaker 3: So.

975
00:46:12,250 --> 00:46:14,489
Speaker 1: As I was reading through your book again and kind

976
00:46:14,510 --> 00:46:18,660
Speaker 1: of thinking through both your books, what what was striking

977
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,380
Speaker 1: to me was how much of this could apply to

978
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,450
Speaker 1: a corporate level. as much as it could apply to

979
00:46:24,469 --> 00:46:27,190
Speaker 1: an individual level. And so I'm just wondering if you

980
00:46:27,210 --> 00:46:29,630
Speaker 1: can kind of speak to that, because I think there's

981
00:46:29,710 --> 00:46:33,009
Speaker 1: a sense in which even just like you were saying,

982
00:46:33,050 --> 00:46:34,529
Speaker 1: you know, I got to go to this retreat center

983
00:46:34,550 --> 00:46:40,219
Speaker 1: for 300 bucks. We don't collectively have the will. It

984
00:46:40,260 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 1: seems like to sustain places where people could just go

985
00:46:44,940 --> 00:46:46,240
Speaker 1: for nothing.

986
00:46:46,980 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 3: Yes.

987
00:46:48,260 --> 00:46:50,740
Speaker 1: I mean, there are some of them, but it's not common.

988
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,420
Speaker 1: It's very difficult to do. And, you know, if you

989
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: were out fundraising for that kind of thing, people would

990
00:46:56,140 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 1: look at you like you were nuts.

991
00:46:57,610 --> 00:46:57,820
Speaker 3: Yes.

992
00:46:58,969 --> 00:46:59,270
Speaker 2: Right.

993
00:46:59,870 --> 00:47:03,350
Speaker 1: And so just that's an example. But, yeah, talk about

994
00:47:03,390 --> 00:47:06,489
Speaker 1: how you see maybe some of these individual things that

995
00:47:06,510 --> 00:47:08,750
Speaker 1: you've learned and you write about in Beauty and Resistance,

996
00:47:09,210 --> 00:47:11,430
Speaker 1: how you could see those extending into the corporate level.

997
00:47:11,810 --> 00:47:14,430
Speaker 3: Yeah. So like this is this is the hardest thing.

998
00:47:15,540 --> 00:47:18,410
Speaker 4: MLK said we need people who are as committed to

999
00:47:18,489 --> 00:47:21,029
Speaker 4: justice and love as people are committed to war and.

1000
00:47:20,969 --> 00:47:21,569
Speaker 2: Violence, right?

1001
00:47:21,630 --> 00:47:23,370
Speaker 3: And it's really hard.

1002
00:47:23,430 --> 00:47:25,830
Speaker 4: So I'll give an example that's in the book and

1003
00:47:25,850 --> 00:47:27,649
Speaker 4: then I'll give an example that I was just thinking

1004
00:47:27,710 --> 00:47:30,839
Speaker 4: about literally on the elliptical machine at physical therapy.

1005
00:47:31,540 --> 00:47:35,299
Speaker 3: And so Phil, shout out to Phil too. He goes

1006
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 3: to our church. Phil individually, right?

1007
00:47:38,300 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 4: So we'll move through the five I's. It was like,

1008
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:43,790
Speaker 4: I need a rhythm in my life and I want

1009
00:47:43,810 --> 00:47:46,549
Speaker 4: to play basketball. I want to play basketball.

1010
00:47:46,610 --> 00:47:48,190
Speaker 3: And in New York City, it's hard to just go

1011
00:47:48,210 --> 00:47:48,950
Speaker 3: play basketball.

1012
00:47:48,969 --> 00:47:50,910
Speaker 4: It's a whole thing. You've got to show up and

1013
00:47:50,950 --> 00:47:53,190
Speaker 4: get a court and all those kinds of things. But

1014
00:47:53,230 --> 00:47:55,489
Speaker 4: Phil was like, huh, I live in Floral Park.

1015
00:47:56,210 --> 00:47:59,540
Speaker 3: I'm going to invite people to come. I'm a resident

1016
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:01,359
Speaker 3: of Floral Park, which means I can get everybody into

1017
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:01,900
Speaker 3: this court.

1018
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:04,180
Speaker 4: And so he's like, I'm going to go on Facebook.

1019
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:05,839
Speaker 4: And he gets a Facebook group. And ultimately, it's like

1020
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 4: 40 people in this group. And he shows up to

1021
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,130
Speaker 4: play basketball. And all of a sudden, it's like, 10,

1022
00:48:14,130 --> 00:48:15,700
Speaker 4: 15 guys coming.

1023
00:48:16,420 --> 00:48:19,090
Speaker 3: And then I'm like, watch, I need a place to

1024
00:48:19,110 --> 00:48:20,070
Speaker 3: go play basketball.

1025
00:48:20,110 --> 00:48:24,410
Speaker 4: And so for like a solid year, we played basketball.

1026
00:48:24,430 --> 00:48:28,790
Speaker 4: It was like 15, 20, sometimes 30 guys just playing.

1027
00:48:29,130 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 4: And again, there's only 10 people on the court at

1028
00:48:31,500 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 4: the time. So then the rest was just talking. There's

1029
00:48:33,580 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 4: no kids in the neighborhood. And like, and that was,

1030
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:38,320
Speaker 4: and that was a season because then he had a

1031
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 4: baby and these other things happen. But like every few weeks,

1032
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:45,259
Speaker 4: that Facebook group pops up and says, hey, does anybody

1033
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:48,380
Speaker 4: want to go play ball? Like it's still– Phil is

1034
00:48:48,620 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 4: out of it, but there's a group there of people that.

1035
00:48:51,500 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 3: Want to do this thing.

1036
00:48:53,260 --> 00:48:58,020
Speaker 4: And so I think that most of us are afraid

1037
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:00,340
Speaker 4: of folks saying no to doing something with us.

1038
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:03,509
Speaker 3: And I think that we're afraid that we won't be

1039
00:49:03,550 --> 00:49:04,350
Speaker 3: able to sustain it.

1040
00:49:06,370 --> 00:49:10,830
Speaker 4: And so I think like Phil saying yes to– I

1041
00:49:10,850 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 4: think to a prompting from God, not just his own

1042
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 4: need to dunk on people.

1043
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,450
Speaker 3: He can't dunk. But anyway, I'm not going to poop

1044
00:49:17,489 --> 00:49:18,310
Speaker 3: on Phil. Phil's great.

1045
00:49:19,150 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 4: But one of the things was Phil was enthusiastic and

1046
00:49:23,300 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 4: invited people and was whimsical when he was there.

1047
00:49:25,580 --> 00:49:27,360
Speaker 3: Just having fun.

1048
00:49:27,460 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 4: And he made everybody want to come and play every week.

1049
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:35,110
Speaker 4: And that lasted for a year and still goes on. Now,

1050
00:49:35,690 --> 00:49:39,509
Speaker 4: the example I just thought about at a larger level

1051
00:49:41,060 --> 00:49:42,540
Speaker 4: We have words.

1052
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:49,260
Speaker 3: To describe our collective will not to do things. Poverty.

1053
00:49:50,530 --> 00:49:56,810
Speaker 3: There's enough money in the world. We have decided that.

1054
00:49:56,210 --> 00:49:58,109
Speaker 4: This neighborhood is going to have more and that neighborhood

1055
00:49:58,130 --> 00:50:00,270
Speaker 4: is going to have less.

1056
00:50:01,070 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 3: Famine. We have decided that food is here and it's

1057
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:09,330
Speaker 3: not there. Just in the United States today, we grow

1058
00:50:09,489 --> 00:50:11,969
Speaker 3: enough food to throw 50% of it away in the

1059
00:50:12,030 --> 00:50:15,190
Speaker 3: field and 35% of it away in the fridge.

1060
00:50:16,250 --> 00:50:16,450
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1061
00:50:16,810 --> 00:50:19,710
Speaker 3: We don't have a food problem in the United States,

1062
00:50:20,250 --> 00:50:23,969
Speaker 3: but we, but we say like those people are food insecure. Right.

1063
00:50:24,570 --> 00:50:24,750
Speaker 2: Right.

1064
00:50:25,410 --> 00:50:27,290
Speaker 3: And at the exact same time.

1065
00:50:27,750 --> 00:50:32,850
Speaker 4: We can take 150,000 soldiers, put them in a desert

1066
00:50:32,989 --> 00:50:36,370
Speaker 4: and give them internet showers, three meals a day and

1067
00:50:36,410 --> 00:50:41,969
Speaker 4: the weaponry necessary to, To destroy– like we made some decisions.

1068
00:50:42,930 --> 00:50:43,370
Speaker 2: Right.

1069
00:50:43,850 --> 00:50:47,490
Speaker 3: You know what I mean? Yeah. And so I think

1070
00:50:48,930 --> 00:50:53,359
Speaker 3: we can model in little ways like– and I would

1071
00:50:53,460 --> 00:50:56,580
Speaker 3: love for churches and faith communities to like champion these

1072
00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:57,320
Speaker 3: little things.

1073
00:50:57,820 --> 00:51:00,219
Speaker 4: Like, hey, Phil is getting a bunch of people together

1074
00:51:00,260 --> 00:51:03,070
Speaker 4: to go play basketball. Jackie is getting a bunch of

1075
00:51:03,110 --> 00:51:03,930
Speaker 4: kids together.

1076
00:51:03,650 --> 00:51:04,950
Speaker 3: At her house every Friday night.

1077
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 4: This group over here is like, they just have dinner

1078
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 4: at their house and anybody can come. If we can

1079
00:51:11,100 --> 00:51:15,009
Speaker 4: champion what happened in Acts 1.

1080
00:51:14,390 --> 00:51:17,430
Speaker 3: Through 4, I think we could do some.

1081
00:51:18,750 --> 00:51:21,910
Speaker 4: It could be very, very different because Jesus did not

1082
00:51:21,969 --> 00:51:24,390
Speaker 4: change the world through the synagogue. He changed it with

1083
00:51:24,450 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 4: Phoebe and Lydia and all these people doing amazing things

1084
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:30,299
Speaker 4: because they decided to follow him.

1085
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:30,660
Speaker 1: So.

1086
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 2: Very cool. Appreciate you talking about that. I love that.

1087
00:51:34,940 --> 00:51:37,140
Speaker 1: I just, one of those aspects I felt like was

1088
00:51:38,290 --> 00:51:42,650
Speaker 1: not completely implicit in the book, but definitely something to

1089
00:51:42,670 --> 00:51:45,230
Speaker 1: think about going forward. So appreciate it, man.

1090
00:51:45,730 --> 00:51:46,669
Speaker 3: For sure. For sure.

1091
00:51:46,690 --> 00:51:49,419
Speaker 2: Dude, this has been great. I've enjoyed the conversation. So

1092
00:51:49,540 --> 00:51:50,500
Speaker 2: thanks for being on the show.

1093
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:52,380
Speaker 3: This is the highlight of my day, man.

1094
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:55,540
Speaker 2: These are always the highlight of my day, man. Like

1095
00:51:55,620 --> 00:51:57,320
Speaker 2: I love doing these interviews. It's crazy.

1096
00:51:57,500 --> 00:51:57,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1097
00:51:59,460 --> 00:52:02,600
Speaker 2: Well, hey, everybody, check out Beauty and Resistance. I have

1098
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 2: the link in the show notes.

1099
00:52:04,380 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 1: IVP generously gives us a 20% off discount code. So

1100
00:52:07,940 --> 00:52:11,049
Speaker 1: if you order it off the IVP Press website, which

1101
00:52:11,110 --> 00:52:12,930
Speaker 1: is where I'll link it in the show notes, you'll

1102
00:52:12,950 --> 00:52:15,049
Speaker 1: get 20% off. Just put in the code that's also

1103
00:52:15,090 --> 00:52:17,100
Speaker 1: in the show notes. And I'm going to link your

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00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 1: other book in there as well. So people want to

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00:52:19,260 --> 00:52:22,859
Speaker 1: read both, do both. I'd encourage that. I think they

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00:52:22,900 --> 00:52:27,890
Speaker 1: really do pair oddly well together, given the different topics

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Speaker 1: that you're actually addressing.

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Speaker 2: But I think they really do go well together.

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Speaker 1: And your understanding and thought process flows, I think, really

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Speaker 1: well across both of them, even though you wrote them

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00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:42,020
Speaker 1: at different times and across a lot of different perspectives.

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Speaker 3: So. I appreciate that. You're a scholar. You read lots

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Speaker 3: of books. You see the connections. I feel seen and known,

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Speaker 3: which I appreciate.

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Speaker 2: Cool.

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Speaker 1: Well, thanks for being on, and thanks, everybody, for hanging

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Speaker 1: in and listening. Hope you enjoyed this, and we'll catch

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Speaker 1: you on the next episode of Thinking Christian.

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Speaker 2: Take care.

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Speaker 1: Just want to take a second to thank the team

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Speaker 1: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the

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Speaker 1: Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find

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Speaker 1: dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got

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Speaker 1: shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.