1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:03,960 Speaker 1: Who is this guy that abducted Nancy Guthrie. Do we 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: have a profile of him? Well, I don't know if 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: the FBI has one, but a guy who's former FBI 4 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: does and he says exactly who he thinks this guy is. 5 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: It's information you're not going to see anywhere else. James R. 6 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: Fitzgerald is my guest. You're gonna want to watch every 7 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: second of this. At the end he gives that profile. 8 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 1: The Nancy Guthrie missing person's case, or the kidnapping case, 9 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: or the ransom case or the I'm not sure what 10 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: that kind of case it is is still wide open. 11 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: We don't know where Nancy Guthrie is. She's been in 12 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: almost three weeks now. As we do this interview. Whyted 13 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: to bring in James Fitzgerald. He is an amazing mind 14 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: when it comes to things like this. Supervisory special agent 15 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: with the FBI. Retired James R. Fitzgerald dot com. Also 16 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 1: the co host of the Cold Red podcast James Harr 17 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: you got to see it. 18 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 2: I'm great, Joe, thanks for having me on your podcast. 19 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,319 Speaker 1: And you're wrog, Yeah, no, you're you're very welcome. It's 20 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: going to be a podcast and it'll be the radio 21 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: show too, so you weren't wrong. Let's talk about this case. 22 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: I don't get it, because again I've been in news 23 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: and information a really long time, thirty six years. I 24 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: don't recall such a high profile case like this taking 25 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: anywhere near this long to get some sort of answers. 26 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: We thought we had a break. We see the video 27 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: from the from the doorbell camera, from the next camera, 28 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 1: then we hear about people are being detained and we're 29 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: putting up tarps and we're getting DNA. James, what do 30 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: you think is going on with this? 31 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 2: Well, when I do these interviews with folks like yourself 32 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 2: and well respected folks like yourself who are asking good questions, 33 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 2: I do remind them that unibom took seventeen years and 34 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 2: he was bombing the whole time. 35 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: Great point. 36 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 2: I worked the DC sniper case in two thousand and two. 37 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,199 Speaker 2: He was killing people. They were killing people all the time. 38 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 2: Ten people and a bunch of other injured. That took 39 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 2: three weeks. You know, even the Brown University shooting took 40 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 2: the better part of a week to put together, and 41 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 2: a lot of people are frustrated. Then it's not easy 42 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 2: being in the middle of a task force such as this, 43 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: and in many cases a lot of law enforcement officers 44 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 2: working together who had never worked together before, and depending 45 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: on who's in charge and who has, you know, supervisory roles, 46 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,279 Speaker 2: getting everything organized. I would like to think that happened 47 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 2: within the first forty eight hours with the Sheriff's office. 48 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 2: They're originally working the case as the lead, with the 49 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 2: FBI and other agencies coming in later. But they are 50 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 2: looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack, and the 51 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 2: haystack is in some desert area of the southwest of 52 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 2: the US, and they're following. I have no doubt every 53 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 2: lead they possibly can, but it's not easy and there's 54 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 2: so many mitigating variables that come in. And I said 55 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 2: from day one. I did my first interview, I think 56 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 2: on February third on the media, and I said, this 57 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 2: is a clear abduction, no enzif or butts, and it's 58 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 2: either for revenge with multiple bullet points beneath that, or 59 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 2: it's for profit. The for profit part are very very 60 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: rare in these countries. Maybe I'm talking about a traditional kidnapping. 61 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 2: If you've read the books from back in the day, 62 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 2: almost one hundred years ago. Hard to believe it. The 63 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 2: Lindberg Baby was kidds. That was a for profit legit. 64 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 2: If you will strain your kidnapping. Frank Sinatra Junior the 65 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 2: early sixties and aired to the Corps Brewery Company in 66 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 2: the I think late fifties. I worked a couple of 67 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 2: kidnapping sorry in ninety two indirectly, the excellent executive in 68 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 2: northern New Jersey was kidnapped. He died on the fourth day, 69 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 2: but the husband and wife kidnapper teams kept it up 70 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 2: for another fifty days to try to get the ransom money. 71 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: They got some of it, eventually arrested. A year later, 72 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 2: a CEO of a tuxedo company in New York City 73 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 2: was kidnapped, and Harvey Weinstein was his name, no relation 74 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 2: to the present day Herbert. But this guy lived for 75 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 2: thirteen days and a hole in the ground got away 76 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 2: with it. The only case that comes to close to 77 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 2: this was in Norway. I've done my research. Twenty eighteen. 78 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 2: A woman was reported missing from her home. There's a 79 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 2: note in the home she's been kidnapped. We went these many, 80 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 2: you know, euros. I may have been bitcoins back then, 81 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 2: but these are so rare as kidnapping, so to go back. 82 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 2: I don't think this was set up as a for 83 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 2: profit kidnapping. Let's go back to abduction. I said for revenge, 84 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 2: right now, what does that mean. It doesn't necessarily mean 85 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 2: Nancy Guthrie of revenge against her. She is what we 86 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 2: call a low risk victim. Basically every matrix you want 87 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 2: to look at, she's low on that totem pole, you know, younger, 88 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 2: I mean, she's not doing drugs, alcohol, walking the streets, 89 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 2: human trafficking, nothing like that. So and safe neighborhood, all 90 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 2: those type things. So who else in the family could want? 91 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 2: Could there be a reason for this revenge, this anger, vengeance, 92 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it. And you have to 93 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 2: look at her daughter, of course, Savannah. And I'm not 94 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 2: saying she's involved in saying any of her family is involved. 95 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 2: Is there someone out there that knew this woman's on 96 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 2: TV talking about different things at different times, and has 97 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 2: this wealthy or has his mother living in Tucson the 98 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 2: daughter is wealthy. Let's make some kind of a statement here, 99 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 2: and let's take this woman and and and and abduct her. 100 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 2: A lot of this was proven accurate when we a 101 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 2: week later, when we got the videos from the scene 102 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: with the guy with the mask whatever. So uh uh, 103 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 2: So it's an abduction that was successful, you can you can. 104 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 2: We can talk about the guy at the scene putting 105 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 2: the flowers up to the camera. You know, pretty awkward there. 106 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 2: To me. That ruled out next in cartel, which I 107 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 2: never considered serious. But if it is a kidnapping for 108 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 2: profit and the very beginning it's failed, and the other 109 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 2: ones that came out these letters of TMZ and UH 110 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 2: and the tussign stations, they were opportunists. Has taken advantage 111 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 2: of a situation, sadly taken advantage. One guy's been arrested 112 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 2: in California, the other ones could be in Eastern Europe 113 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 2: and Africa. 114 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: Whatever. 115 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 2: So successful abduction, if it ever was planned to be 116 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 2: a kidnapping unsuccessful in the part of this person, I 117 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 2: think it's more for personal reasons, something to do with 118 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 2: the extended gut three family. 119 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: I want to get into that in earnest for sure. 120 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: But let's let's get rid of the for profit part 121 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: completely if we can, although it still can happen, but 122 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 1: let's for the for the purposes of this conversation, let's 123 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: get rid of that by doing this, wouldn't they have 124 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: shown a sign of life, give me something if you 125 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: want money, if you want the bitcoin, or where the 126 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: hell the ransom is supposed to be, if you don't 127 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: show any signs of life. This is in nineteen twenty 128 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: seven when the Lindberg thing happened. We've got all sorts 129 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 1: of video everywhere. Where you pick up your phone, you 130 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 1: send a sign of life. That's actually pretty easy, and 131 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: you cloak it through VPNs and everything else and hide 132 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: where you are. So wouldn't there have been something to say, 133 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: here's the commodity that you that we have. If you 134 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:23,239 Speaker 1: want it back, you'll give us the money. 135 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 2: And the rules of kidnapping and there's not that many 136 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 2: of them. They do happen in Mexico, Central America, South America, 137 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 2: of course occasionally in Europe. But when these do happen, 138 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 2: the code ist you know, we'll consider paying you the money, 139 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 2: but we want some kind of proof of life real 140 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 2: quick examples when the Exon executive in nineteen ninety two 141 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,359 Speaker 2: was kidnapped. In the mail to the family, was his 142 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 2: Exxon credit card right? That proved they had some kind 143 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 2: of custody of this guy. Certainly as well. A year 144 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 2: later the guy they put in the hole, the Harvey Weinstein, 145 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 2: the good Harvey Weinstein. They were lowering a tape recorder 146 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 2: to him and they had a burner phone and they 147 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 2: would play these tapes and me, yeah, this is Harvey. 148 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 2: Give them the money, get me out of here, and 149 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 2: you know everything, I'm good for now. So there's the 150 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 2: proof of life. In that particular case. We knew Patty 151 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 2: Hearst was not a for profit kidnapping that was political. 152 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 2: But there's pictures of her robbing banks. There's other videos 153 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 2: that she put out, you know, so the kidnappers know. 154 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 2: So that's why this is not a serious kidnapping. Boy. 155 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 2: If it was, they really violated every single rule of kidnapping, 156 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 2: and the other ones are just opportunists. Like I said, 157 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 2: so again, the FBI has to investigate these. I hope 158 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 2: they have their best you know, tech people involved trying 159 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 2: to go through these anonymiser walls and everything else to 160 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 2: get the IP addresses, and I'm sure they're working on that. 161 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 2: But I would focus on the other part of this, 162 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 2: the victimology of missus Guthrie and everything surrounding her concentric 163 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 2: circles on outwards. 164 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: James ar Fitzgerald dot Com go and follow them there. 165 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: Go check out the podcast cold Red Podcast cold Red Podcast, 166 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: and the book series Journey to the Center of the 167 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: Mind Books one, two, three, and four. Always appreciate the time. 168 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: So let's get into the revenge aspect. Okay, you've got 169 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: a grudge against the family. I'm just making assumptions here. Hypothetically, 170 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: you've got a grudge against the family. You might have 171 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: a problem with Savannah, could be something else. Somebody else 172 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: in the family might have said or done something wrong 173 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: to you. I don't see this eighty four year old 174 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: being the person that you have the grudge against. But 175 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: what do I know? She could have run into somebody 176 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: the grocery store and game of dirty. Look, I have 177 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: no idea that the inner workings of insane minds that said, 178 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: what does that look like? Because the guy goes there, 179 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: he doesn't look that unfamiliar to the house to me. 180 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: But I'm not a former investigator. You're right with the 181 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: shrubs and the flowers over the camera, that you rip 182 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: the camera down, the whole thing. But he's in get 183 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: up James from head to toe to make sure nobody 184 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: knows who to hell this is. And you're right. Unfortunately, 185 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 1: the abduction was successful. So what does revenge look like 186 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: when do you start piecing together as an investigator, he 187 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: may have done it for this, this or this, let's 188 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: take the money out of it. 189 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, Joe, very important when it comes 190 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 2: to these sort of grievances in these matters of threat cases, 191 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 2: whatever we're looking at, and we'll say, we'll say revenge 192 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 2: right here. That's just the word I've been using right 193 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 2: under the left side of the abduction paradigm with for 194 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 2: profit on the other. The revenge could be for something 195 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 2: real or imagined. Oh wow, And what's imagined can be 196 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 2: very real to the person who's imagining it. And you 197 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 2: know what I mean. And it could be healthy to 198 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 2: have an imagination. That's a good thing, little case, adults, 199 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 2: whatever it is. But when involves kidnapping people or hurting 200 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 2: people in some way, that's when the imagination has to 201 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 2: be put on check. 202 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: I want you to continue on that, but I got 203 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: to tell you, James, you're the first person I've interviewed 204 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 1: a lot of people on this who has said this 205 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: could just be perceived grievance and it could be somebody's imagination. 206 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: Please continue on that angle. That's crazy. 207 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, because I'll use the technical term, you know, 208 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 2: you know, the insane brain of how these people work. 209 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 2: Their synapses definitely don't connect like yours and mine and 210 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 2: no doubt the majority of your audience. So they have 211 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 2: some kind of perceived and this could have fomented Joe 212 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 2: for years. We don't know, it could be months. Look 213 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 2: at the guy at the Brown shooting and I put 214 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 2: a profile, and I wouldn't mind discussing the profile that 215 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 2: my co host partner and I put out just the 216 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 2: other night, and no one else had done it in 217 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 2: this case, so I would like to put that out. 218 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 2: But look at the Brown University case. We put a 219 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 2: profile out and say this guy had a grievance, he 220 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 2: had revenge against Brown or something to do with Brown. 221 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 2: Then of course the professor was kilted on MIT. Somehow 222 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 2: he fit in it. And it goes back months, maybe years, 223 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 2: And I'll be honest with you, I didn't think it 224 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 2: was a quarter of a century, but that's how long 225 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 2: ago he was in at Brown University and they kicked 226 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 2: him out or somehow he got out of the program 227 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 2: and the MIT professor they went to school together in 228 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 2: Portugal in the late nineties. So these people can carry 229 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 2: these frustrations thirty years wow, these aggravations thirty plus years now. 230 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 2: And Kazinski, the unibomber, was the same way. You know, 231 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 2: jets would fly over thirty thousand feet over his cabin 232 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 2: with the contrails and the little sound disruption twice a 233 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 2: day is what caused him then to send bombs to 234 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 2: the airlines in his early So you know, you can 235 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 2: reel or imagine, you can parse those as far down. 236 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 2: You know, someone tounches you in the mouth, you want 237 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 2: to get back at them. Yes, that's kind of real. 238 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 2: You know, rightly or wrongly, maybe you deserve to get punched. 239 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 2: I don't know, but that would be a real event. 240 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 2: But if you think someone punched you in the mouth 241 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 2: or looked at you the wrong way, that's imagined. And 242 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 2: of course that's a minor example. It could be much 243 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 2: more intense and and and just build into the whole 244 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 2: mindset of this particular person. 245 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 1: So I want to get one. I want to I 246 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: want to get the profile of the person from you 247 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: because I didn't I didn't see it in your podcast. 248 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: I hope people go, We'll go check it out the 249 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: Cold Red podcast. But I want to get that in 250 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: a second. Does does anything go in your mind as 251 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: an investigator and somebody who is is investigating this stuff 252 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: for a very long time, with how much planning went 253 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: into it, Because it wasn't a guy that just said 254 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: that's it. I'm at the boiling point. I'm gonna go 255 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: grab her and do what I'm gonta do again head 256 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: to toe. He obviously went to Walmart, got the backpack, 257 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: got the gloves, got the got the pants, got the jacket. 258 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: Has his head covered up, maybe he has the car 259 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: parts in a certain way. Is there anything thing to 260 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: all this planning or could that actually play into this 261 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: mentality of perception is reality? He might have had the 262 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: grudge for years for all we know. 263 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 2: You're a little bit ahead of me with the profile. 264 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 2: But the bottom line is, yes, this person was mission 265 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 2: oriented another term we'd like to use in profiling. Sometimes 266 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 2: they're not. And I've interviewed serial offenders in prison part 267 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 2: of our training to be new profilers in Quantico. Go 268 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 2: out to the prisons and guys that are long put away. 269 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 2: Why did you do rape this woman? What but not 270 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 2: this woman? Why did you stay three hours with this one? 271 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 2: In three minutes with this one, and you really get 272 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 2: an insight, and insight, I should say, into their brains 273 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 2: as disturbing as they are. So we don't know. So 274 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 2: this guy was mission oriented, yes, pre planning, that is 275 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 2: absolutely we call it. And when you hear the profile, 276 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 2: it's really more behavioral characteristics. It's pre offense behavior, post 277 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 2: offense behavior. And I want people to think about, if 278 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 2: they know someone in their life, what he was doing 279 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,959 Speaker 2: before this kidnapping February second, we're calling it a kidnapping abduction. 280 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 2: I mean, what he's been doing now, And I even 281 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 2: broke it down to the first week before the video 282 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 2: came out. Then perhaps how he reacted the week after 283 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 2: the video came out. And that's how we put this together. 284 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 2: This was not a guy hitchhiking down the street and 285 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 2: whatever sees a house. Oh it looks nice and dark. 286 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 2: Let me throw my mask on. And this his gun 287 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 2: holster in the front of my you know, pants hanging 288 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 2: down like Sigmund Freud would have a field day where 289 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 2: he had served the purpose there and it probably would 290 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 2: explain a lot about this guy. But at the same time, 291 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 2: did he goes in and he goes in the house, 292 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 2: the way he did. Now he had four He had 293 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 2: prior knowledge of this house, either in it or he 294 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 2: knew someone who was in it okay, and got that 295 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 2: information from them, even if they didn't know they were 296 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 2: giving him information to commit this crime. 297 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: It is James R. Fitzgerald. Go and check him out 298 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: James AR Fitzgerald dot com. Check out that podcast with 299 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: a full profile of this guy that he worked up, 300 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: A cold red podcast is the name of the podcast. 301 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: Go and get it. So do you think there was 302 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: more than one person? Because every investigator I've talked to 303 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: has a different opinion on this. Some say he tried 304 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: the front door, thinking somebody came in the back door 305 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: and would have unlocked by then and let him in, 306 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: and then he had to figure out what to do 307 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 1: from there. And of course we see the fidgeting with 308 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: the camera. Do you think he's by himself? Does somebody 309 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: who fits the profile that you've come up with here 310 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: maybe a revenge sort of thing. Does he have a 311 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: partner or is he by himself? 312 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 2: Whenever we put a profile together, if the evidence suggests 313 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 2: more than one person, will the reprofile or reflect that. Yeah, 314 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 2: But what we'll go for is, then here is the 315 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 2: leader here is the alpha male. If there is more 316 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 2: than one, but the profile you're about to hear or 317 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 2: read whatever, is that of the main person who's kind 318 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 2: of running the show. Now. It could also relate to 319 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 2: a secondary, even tertiary person involved. I think most likely 320 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 2: there was a second person involved, perhaps in a car 321 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 2: that we can't see in any of the videos, at 322 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 2: least that's been released to the public. Remember, the FBI 323 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 2: and the Sheriff's partment are holding some things back, and 324 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 2: I respect that. 325 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: Well, there was a roof camera, right James. I mean, 326 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: if there was a roof camera and they could have 327 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: gotten the video from that like they did from the 328 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: front door camera, there's a reason why we haven't seen that. Right. 329 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 2: Certainly investigative, and I'm fine with that, and we can 330 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 2: speculate all we want in that regard. But I hoping 331 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 2: therese other cameras up and down the street, red light 332 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 2: cameras that something unusual went by and they can get 333 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 2: something out of those. So, but yeah, I can't rule 334 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 2: out a second person. I think he could have carried missus. 335 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 2: The guy looked big enough. It's not easy carrying a 336 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 2: limp person, or certainly someone who's fighting, not even suggesting 337 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 2: missus Guthrie, you know, is deceased, hoping positively that she's 338 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 2: out there somewhere. Elizabeth Smart came back a year later, 339 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 2: again at kidnapping that wasn't for a profit, that was 340 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 2: a sex thing different than what we're looking at here. 341 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 2: So he could have this person could have such an 342 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 2: obsession or a fantasy with Savannah Guthrie that just sitting 343 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 2: in a room talking to the woman who gave birth 344 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 2: to her could give some kind of a pleasure to him, 345 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 2: but of course a bizarre one that makes no sense 346 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 2: to anyone else. And boy, if this guy's listening, I've 347 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 2: learned over the years, Joe, that these guys who commit 348 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 2: these crimes, they checked the newspapers in the old days, 349 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 2: they'd watched the the six and six thirty news, and 350 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 2: now they're also signing on line to hear what the 351 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 2: what the experts are talking. Well, he wants to hear 352 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 2: this guy is smart enough not to hurt her. 353 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: And I'm with you, and I hope that he doesn't either. 354 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: But I want to go back to the revenge factor 355 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: because if it is about Savannah, and I don't know 356 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: what it's about, all I know is that there's an 357 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: eighty four year old woman that should be at her 358 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: house right now, enjoying her life, but she's not because 359 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: of this bad guy. But if it's about Savannah, she 360 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: can't know what he's doing with her mother. So is 361 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: that is that the satisfaction is sick degenerate like this 362 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: gets that he knows he's hurting her, that's. 363 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 2: Enough or somehow get close to her, to the mother, 364 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 2: and the only way he can do it is through 365 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 2: to Savannah, is through the mother. I mean, you know, 366 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 2: don't forget John Hinckley shot and almost killed President Reagan 367 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 2: to somehow impress Jodie Foster. Right. That was in nineteen 368 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 2: eighty one, and other stalkers have done that. I worked 369 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 2: in New York City and the FBI for in the 370 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 2: early nineties, and I worked a lot with NBC the 371 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 2: head of security. They're female anchors and person were always 372 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 2: getting threatened. Uh and culture. I became friends with her. 373 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: She was being threatened by a stalker. We had to 374 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 2: deal with that. So women get these women, especially on 375 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 2: TV awkers, and they become obsessive with them. They can't 376 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 2: get to the woman herself, where her family, her kids, 377 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:20,880 Speaker 2: direct family. So in this case is impossible and I'm 378 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 2: not knocking into this, by the way, Joe saying it's 379 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 2: a possibility. And I think every email that she's ever received, 380 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 2: meaning Savannah, in the last five years, it's to come 381 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 2: in the mail, little packages, a bouquet, a rose. It 382 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 2: that has to look and that maybe someone who had 383 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 2: some sort of an aphixiation with her, non asphyxia obsession 384 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 2: with her. And by the way, it's called rodomania. It's 385 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 2: actually in the DSM Diastic Statistical Manual shrinks hues. It's 386 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 2: actually a diagnosed disease of stalkers. They didn't get a 387 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 2: person out of their mind. Women do it, men do it, 388 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 2: and uh uh and and towards you know, other people, Celebrits. 389 00:17:57,720 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 2: Usually they think they're in love with them. They think 390 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 2: celebrity loves them back. They can't get to that celebrity. 391 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 2: Maybe in a case they go to the next one. 392 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 2: All I'm saying is this is something from the revenge side. 393 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 2: We're of the subduction we're talking about. This is something 394 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,880 Speaker 2: that to be considered a part of the investigators. I'm 395 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 2: sure they are. 396 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 1: James R. Fitzgerald supervisor, especially a f from the FBI. 397 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 1: He's retired now. James R. Fitzgerald dot Com, The Cold 398 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: Red podcasts, the podcast get his books, The Journey to 399 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: the Center of the Mind books A, one, two, three, 400 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 1: and four. There is a bit of an internet glitch 401 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 1: going on, so just stick with us. Though this information 402 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: is some of the most the newest information that I've heard. 403 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 1: It is certainly a unique information that I've heard from 404 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: anybody else. You talked earlier, and I want to get 405 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: the Mexican connection, or the possible connection out of the way. 406 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: You talked earlier about how this guy was carrying the gun. 407 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 1: From what I was told by Randy Sutton, a former 408 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: a former police officer, was that's called a Mexican carry, 409 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: Which makes one think, okay, so is there a connection 410 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: to Mexico here somehow I have guns. I would never 411 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: have a holstore in front of me like that, Like 412 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:57,199 Speaker 1: you said, Freud would have a field day with that 413 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 1: and the way he was carrying it. But allegedly that's 414 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 1: a Mexican carry. I know the FBI says it's been 415 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 1: in contact with Mexico. How willing is Mexico usually to 416 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: work How willing are they to work with the FBI? 417 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: And with authorities here in a case like this, do 418 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: you think they quickly found out if yes, there is 419 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: a Mexican connection or no there isn't because of that contact. 420 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 2: Made very early on in this investigation, whether it was 421 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 2: acknowledged or denied or what in the beginning miles from 422 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 2: the border, give or take. This has to be I'll 423 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 2: tell you what, it's not easy to take. If a 424 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 2: woman is still alive, or anybody is still alive, keep 425 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 2: them under control through border uh, you know, the borderware, 426 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 2: with the border patrol officers, what have you. Now, We're 427 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 2: really focused right down this country thankfully in the last 428 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 2: year and a half or so year plus. Maybe people 429 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 2: from coming into the country should be here, but maybe 430 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 2: there are roots to get out of the country not 431 00:19:53,640 --> 00:20:00,880 Speaker 2: as difficult to how possible They went to next deal. 432 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 2: But this does not seem like well, has anything to 433 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 2: do with Mexico. This is a you know, one or 434 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 2: two man team that got together and said, idea, this 435 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 2: this this lady on TV still get her mother and 436 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 2: they have some information from some house cleaner or pool 437 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,239 Speaker 2: person something like that. It could be three you know, 438 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 2: three or four down the line or layers down the 439 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 2: line where this information came from and they took it 440 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 2: upon themselves. So once again Mexico cannot be ruled out 441 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 2: as as the source of the perpetrators of this offense. 442 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 2: But but I wouldn't be surprised at all if this 443 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 2: was somebody more local to the Two Sign area, or 444 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 2: at least having former familiarity with the Two Sign area. 445 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: James R. Fitzgerald going go and follow him out his 446 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: website James or fitzgild dot com. Go check out the 447 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: podcast Cold Red Podcast? What do you make of? The 448 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: FBI isn't saying anything? And what I mean by that is, 449 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: I wouldn't really have a problem with it unless, or 450 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: if we didn't see this Chris Nanos out there every 451 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,400 Speaker 1: single day on you know, sitting down one on one 452 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 1: with several different reporters. The share was out there out 453 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,439 Speaker 1: front making a full of himself, I believe, and of 454 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 1: his Sheriff's department, while the FBI isn't saying much of anything. 455 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 1: What do you make of that? 456 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 2: Well, good cop, bad cop, loud cop, quiet cop. You 457 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 2: tell me. I would like to think there is a 458 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 2: coordination between any sort of press release that they're that 459 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 2: they're going through press releases they're going through right now, 460 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 2: and even the individual interviews that the sheriff is doing. 461 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 2: You know, I'm careful to be too critical of people. 462 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 2: There's a lot of stuff going on behind the line. 463 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 2: We're all outsiders. I am. I don't have sources. I 464 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 2: would never call any agents. I know, Hey, can you 465 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 2: tell me what's happening? Right One Dad done to me 466 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 2: back in the day, and I wouldn't do it to them, So, 467 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 2: you know, I'm assuming. You know, the the Bureau and 468 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 2: the Sheriff's department are getting along and they're moving forward 469 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 2: on this and slowly but surely, luckily there's not a 470 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 2: rash of kidnappings again d C sniper case over three weeks. 471 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 2: People are getting killed every few days. This has been 472 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 2: one abduction and uh and and done for now. Doesn't 473 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 2: mean it could never happen again, no, but at least 474 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 2: they're doing everything they can to find out and solve 475 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 2: this crime. Find of course Missus Guthrie, and hopefully I 476 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 2: take it from there. And they're not, you know, looking 477 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 2: into Mexico. They're looking northbound of the parts of the country. 478 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 2: But I have a feeling the longer you're traveling with 479 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 2: either a live person or who doesn't want to be 480 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 2: with you, or perhaps a deceased person. Uh, it's more 481 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 2: of a chance of getting caught. This was a high 482 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 2: risk crime already. My hands up in the air. If 483 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 2: you're only if you're only listening and not watching. Uh. 484 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 2: And it was a high risk crime already. And to 485 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 2: carry a uncooperative person in your trunk or wherever, even 486 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 2: with duct tape and and and and bounding uh binding 487 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 2: on them, it still make it even more high risk 488 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 2: for you. So the shorter distance you had to travel, 489 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 2: the better it would it be difficult and possible to 490 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 2: do to get into the Mexican border. Of course not 491 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 2: but I think, uh, I think for the as rare 492 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 2: as kidnappings are. If if the cartel was doing this, 493 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 2: they wouldn't spend forty one minutes inside the place, or 494 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 2: even longer they would have left. Everyone know, right, if 495 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 2: it's cartel or Mexican, why did they do this? This 496 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 2: isn't some obsessed fan from Funny They did his poor 497 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 2: job getting the kidnapping part done because of what you 498 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,880 Speaker 2: said earlier, Joe, and I've been saying for almost three 499 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 2: weeks now, proof of life. Everyone knows that you need 500 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 2: that to pay the money out. 501 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 1: Ring camera footage showed up from three h four am, 502 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 1: just like yesterday or something, and not far proximity from 503 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's house, and it appears to show a person 504 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,719 Speaker 1: that's got a backpack with the same sort of reflectors. 505 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 1: This one doesn't make sense to me, but then again, 506 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: abducting people doesn't make sense to me either. Would the 507 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: person who did this really keep the backpack and maybe 508 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 1: use it again and be caught on some ring camera 509 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: or do you think this is a coincidence. 510 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 2: There are cheap skates even amongst offenders and kidnappers and abductors, 511 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 2: and they bought this thing and they think if they 512 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 2: get rid of it, first of all, it could have 513 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 2: evidence in it and they don't want people finding it. 514 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 2: But they could also still keep it. And you know, 515 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 2: we're not giving anyway trade secrets. Here you're seen with 516 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 2: a distinctive set of sneakers or backpack or something. You know, 517 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 2: people know sometimes to get rid of it, destroy it, whatever. 518 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 2: So but it's also looking back in the past and 519 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 2: finding out who bought these things with cash, with cards, 520 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 2: and there's ways of you know, determining both through surveillance 521 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 2: cameras at these different storefronts, so it's hard to you know, 522 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 2: these people can be obsessive and sort of OCD in 523 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 2: and of themselves, and they don't want to give anything away. 524 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 2: I bought this backpack even if just you know, nineteen 525 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 2: dollars at Walmart, and they just want to hold onto it. 526 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 2: And a lot of these guys, when I talk to 527 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 2: these prisoners, these inmates, serial killers, serial rapists, they would 528 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 2: bring into a scene, their their rape kit, their kill kid, 529 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 2: in this case, an abduction kit. What that guy had 530 00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 2: in the backpack, I don't know, because looks like it 531 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 2: was a packed parachute. Of course it wasn't, but and 532 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:05,959 Speaker 2: all the stuff he had in there, and you think 533 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 2: he would have had some duct tape or electrical tape 534 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 2: to cover the lens on the camera. Instead he's picking flowers, 535 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 2: flora of some sort to put up against there. That 536 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 2: part really made no sense to me. So he told 537 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 2: me this guy wasn't He was organized to get to 538 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 2: the front door. Then some of his organizational skills fell apart, 539 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 2: and it's like he really never kind of did this before. 540 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 2: But he's seen enough old movies and internet searches you 541 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 2: wear the hat, you know everything that he did, gloves 542 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 2: and by the way I put out there and including 543 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 2: in my profile that this guy may be a Zodiac 544 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 2: killer of ficionado and if anyone ends this or anything, 545 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 2: he's the Zodiac killer coming back, you know, fifty some 546 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 2: years later. This is but someone who may if you 547 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 2: know this person, he may be doing searches on the internet. 548 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 2: Was the hat is kind of similar to at least 549 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 2: one of the sort of hood things that the Zodiac 550 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 2: person wore. According to one of the business victims in 551 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 2: the San Francisco the late sixties early seventies who happened 552 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 2: to survive his attack, it's so very interesting. 553 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: This guy could be studying, you know, a serial killer 554 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 1: through history. What I wonder is what is because you've 555 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: gotta get back on the mind of the person. What 556 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: is it that he wants now? Because if it's about revenge, 557 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 1: and again we're making a lot of you know, assertions 558 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: that may or may not be the case at the 559 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: end of the day. But if it's about revenge, and 560 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: it's if it's about hurting Savannah, do you think the 561 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: person wants to just continue hurting that family? Is there 562 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: anything that has to happen for him to say all right, 563 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 1: I've done enough now, or that's just not even a 564 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: possibility in his head. 565 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard to think like someone who would abduct 566 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 2: an eighty four year old woman. I don't know either, 567 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 2: And of course the plan could have won asunder with 568 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 2: her heart condition and within an hour, yes, she dies, 569 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 2: I mean, and that happened in the kidnapping, like I 570 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 2: said in nineteen ninety two in the Northern New Jersey, 571 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 2: I got kid lived for days, then died, and they 572 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 2: kept kind of Lindbergh baby died that night within hours 573 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 2: of coming out of the nursery in the Hopewell, New Jersey. 574 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 2: But the kidnapper kept it up for like a year 575 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 2: and a half. And Charles was paying money to some 576 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 2: you know, strange guy in a cemetery in the Bronx. 577 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 2: So I don't know how much he would think in 578 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 2: that regard or what he would want to do with 579 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 2: this woman. Maybe keeping her alive is somehow keeping his 580 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 2: hopes of some relationship with Savannah alive. And look how 581 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 2: well I treated your mother. I could have done bad 582 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 2: things to her, but I didn't. And I'm just throwing 583 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 2: out there. I don't know this is true, but you know, 584 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 2: she could be in some kind of a staate and 585 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 2: kept you know, careful watch over and being fed and 586 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 2: whatever in our medication somehow attained. So I just don't 587 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:44,959 Speaker 2: know where that is. 588 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: James R. Fitzgerald, we appreciate it. Go get his books, 589 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: The Journey to the Center of the Mind Books one, two, three, 590 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: and four. Also go check out the Cold Red podcast, 591 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 1: very very important. Go through the profile for me. If 592 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: you don't mind, this is this is exclusive stuff that 593 00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: I have not heard before. 594 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 2: God sure, and we do this. We did this in 595 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 2: every case. Is profilers back in the day, DC Sniper, 596 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 2: the Anthrax case, some of the big cases I work 597 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 2: UNIBOM prior to that. And you want to put something 598 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 2: out to the public, the profilers in this case aren't 599 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 2: doing it. I don't have inside information, but I know 600 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 2: enough about these types of crimes that I think we 601 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 2: can put something out there that someone who knows this 602 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 2: person will recognize. Now, remember, look at the video. Look 603 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 2: at the size and the shape of this person and 604 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 2: the stuff that he's wearing. Consider a Tucson, you know area, 605 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 2: either present day or recent past and otherwise. Here what 606 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,360 Speaker 2: we're looking for to bring it into two categories pre 607 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 2: offense behavior. So this is before the crime, unusually distracted, 608 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 2: a loop inortantly busy, but for unclear reasons, self absorbed, 609 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 2: spending more and more Internet time, purchasing odd materials, perhaps 610 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 2: financial issues, but I'm not going to lock into that 611 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 2: too much. And once again they're real or perceived. And 612 00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,959 Speaker 2: he possesses one of these abduction kids that I just 613 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 2: talked about, like the backpack in the video, and it 614 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 2: could buil all kinds of items in their tapes, masks, restraints, rope, 615 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 2: wire tools, flashlights, etc. Not to mention the bit byte light, 616 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 2: which are not too many people have there. And he 617 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 2: may be up or more female celebrities and or high 618 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 2: profile victims. So this is the person you may have known, husband, 619 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 2: ex husband, son, uncle, neighbor, worker, coworker before the crime. 620 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 2: So now the crime happens February second, early in the 621 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 2: morning at Sunday morning. Now this is his post offense behavior, 622 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 2: but before the video was released. So he has altered 623 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 2: behavior activity, especially the whole weekend of January thirtieth through 624 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 2: February second. His schedule is modified. He's more often in 625 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 2: one place or less often in one place, missing work, 626 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 2: missing family functions, odd late night hours out of town, 627 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 2: or claims to be for unknown reasons. He may be 628 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 2: driving a rental car and for no apparent reason. Then Joe, 629 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 2: the video came out, and this is I don't think 630 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 2: this person maybe expected the video, maybe he knew she 631 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 2: had no subscription, but the Nests people you know, managed 632 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 2: to dig out the video. After the video is released, 633 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 2: he gets phrenetic, nervous, unstable, highly irritable, moving around physically, 634 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 2: and much more than so in the past, changes his 635 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 2: appearance following the media obsessively. And that's kind of a 636 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 2: thumbnail sketch of what this guy is. So I'm imploring 637 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 2: to anyone out there you know someone like this, even 638 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 2: if it's not every single aspect I just read off, 639 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 2: No profile is one hundred percent perfect, But if maybe 640 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 2: you know ninety percent of what I just said, rings 641 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,959 Speaker 2: the bell with someone you know, called the tip line 642 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 2: the FBI one eight hundred and provide that information. I 643 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 2: think the reward has been up a good bit now. 644 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 2: Certainly it was one hundred thousand. I'm not sure if 645 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 2: it went up or not. Two hundred thousand now, yeah, 646 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 2: if nothing else, you get a nice reward if it 647 00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 2: does turn out to be the person. If not, nothing 648 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 2: ventured gain. So, folks, that's the best we can do 649 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 2: as me as an outsider, but someone who's proofiled a 650 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 2: lot of big time criminals back in the day and 651 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 2: got them right. This is hopefully this would help you 652 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 2: identify this person. Do it for the money if you want, 653 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 2: but do it to help maybe free missus. Nancy Guthrie, 654 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 2: you know unbelievable information. 655 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: I can't thank you enough of your time today, even 656 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: through the internet. Is James, Thank you, James ar Fitzgerald 657 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: dot com. The Cold Red Podcast, Go and check that 658 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: out right now. I hope we'll have you back on 659 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: again very soon, my man, thank you for that incredible insight. 660 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 2: Thanks you're welcome, Joe, take care. 661 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: That's it for unshaking it under Afraid with Joe PAGs 662 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 1: this time. Another one to drop very soon