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Speaker 1: Life audio.

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Speaker 2: So I'm speaking with my friend Jay Warner Wallace. That's

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Speaker 2: very impressive. Yeah, you wait to say your name.

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Speaker 1: I know right. See, if I went with that, it

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Speaker 1: would be like Jean Mitchell Laurie.

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Speaker 3: Oh, that's an author that was a great for books.

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Speaker 2: Start going hello, I'm Jean Mitchell Laurie and I'm an author.

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Speaker 2: It's right, But you're Jim right, So, Jim, you were

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Speaker 2: a cold case detective for how many years?

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Speaker 4: The cold case is for about ten?

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Speaker 1: What is a cold case? So those are just unsolved murders.

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Speaker 3: So if you're in Los Angeles County back in those days,

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Speaker 3: it's probably still true today and you're working homicides, you're

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Speaker 3: gonna you have the option if you want to pick

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Speaker 3: up as a collateral duty any unsolved murder, because those

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Speaker 3: don't close. They're not assigned to anybody, but they're sitting

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Speaker 3: in like a vault, or they're sitting on a shelf, or.

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Speaker 1: They're sitting at all.

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Speaker 2: Like the TV shows that we see, were any of

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Speaker 2: those very realistic?

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Speaker 1: There's a many of them, an there.

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Speaker 3: There are, and probably that they are relatively close. But

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Speaker 3: the only difference is is they're usually compressed in time.

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Speaker 3: So I might open a case and take fifteen years

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Speaker 3: from start to finish.

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Speaker 1: What so long did you work in a cold case?

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Speaker 4: So well, see, I opened a case.

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Speaker 3: I started looking at a case in the early nineteen

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Speaker 3: nineties that.

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Speaker 4: I was just thinking of my dad's old case. So

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Speaker 4: I picked it up.

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Speaker 1: Your father was law enforcement, same.

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Speaker 3: Agency, same adiens worked or thomicide and he had an

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Speaker 3: unsolved murder from nineteen seventy two of a ten year old.

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Speaker 3: And I was about eleven when that happened. So it

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Speaker 3: hit our community hard, and my dad took it very

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Speaker 3: hard and changed the way he parented, like what you're

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Speaker 3: going to allow your kids to do? Because this poor

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Speaker 3: girl was just snatched off the street. So so it

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Speaker 3: changed the way that he parented. And I remember like

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Speaker 3: thinking about it for years, and so I became a detective.

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Speaker 3: It was assigned to Humed sub Even before then, I

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Speaker 3: was a sign of a surveillance team. I said, this

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Speaker 3: case isn't sitting on the shelf and it's not assigned

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Speaker 3: to anybody.

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Speaker 4: Let me pick it up.

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Speaker 3: And so I picked the start reading through all the

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Speaker 3: all the reports, started reading through all the interviews. Well,

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Speaker 3: ultimately I didn't get to submit the DNA on that

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Speaker 3: case until about probably two thousand and one or two.

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Speaker 3: I was brought in that range, so that's a few

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Speaker 3: years later, and it didn't hit. It didn't show up

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Speaker 3: in CODUS, which is our database for sex offenders in California.

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Speaker 3: So it just didn't hit. So I thought, well, this

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Speaker 3: is an unknown. Maybe he died, maybe he moved out

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Speaker 3: of the state, maybe he's just.

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Speaker 4: No longer around.

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Speaker 3: Well not until the invention or the use of a

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Speaker 3: genetic DNA ancestry DNA.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, isn't this with all these people signing up for

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Speaker 2: like thirty three I mean.

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Speaker 4: That's right.

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Speaker 1: I just the database.

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Speaker 3: I always say thank you very much because now I

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Speaker 3: can take all your relatives to jail because you just

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Speaker 3: happened to put your database in. But so it's good

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Speaker 3: for us. But that was about twenty seventeen. So by

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Speaker 3: twenty nineteen we identified her killer. So I started that

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Speaker 3: tinkering with that in the nineties. I really thought I

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Speaker 3: was going to solve it in the early two thousands.

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Speaker 3: Didn't get solved until twenty nineteen. So how long does

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Speaker 3: that take? So a lot of these cases, are you

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Speaker 3: arrested this person? Well, it turned out he had passed

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Speaker 3: away about I think three or four years earlier.

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Speaker 2: So and what about your father going back to that

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Speaker 2: little girl, did they ever find the person who killed him?

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Speaker 3: Yes, so we've identified him. We he We've identified him

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Speaker 3: through his daughter genetically. And then when we wanted to

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Speaker 3: confirm it, so he had passed away, we resumed his

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Speaker 3: body wow, and compared and compared DNA to make sure

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Speaker 3: that it is him. So it is him, He is

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Speaker 3: the killer.

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Speaker 4: But we didn't. We didn't get justice.

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Speaker 2: Neck we got Well, it brings us some kind of closures.

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Speaker 1: Family.

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Speaker 3: I always say it's a resolution, right, there's no closure, right,

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Speaker 3: because so much of closure is like, well, how am

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Speaker 3: I processing this today? Am I comfortable? And of course

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Speaker 3: no one ever is right. I can't bring I always say,

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Speaker 3: we can't get closure. We'll be lucky if we can

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Speaker 3: get justice. But well, that's what we're shooting for, but

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Speaker 3: we we're probably never going to get closure because I

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Speaker 3: can't bring your daughter back.

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Speaker 2: So you're a cold case detective, you know, and I

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Speaker 2: know a lot of police officers, and you know, unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: you guys and girls, you see the worst elements of society.

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Speaker 2: You see people lie all the time. To you, you're

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Speaker 2: dealing with this constantly. To survive such a thing, one

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Speaker 2: has to develop a shell because you have to go home,

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Speaker 2: you have a life, you have a family. You can't

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Speaker 2: carry everything around with you emotionally all the time. So

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Speaker 2: it seems to me there could be almost a cynicism

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Speaker 2: that one carries in life. Did you sort of have

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Speaker 2: that cynicism when it came to believing in God because

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Speaker 2: you actually were an atheist?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I was very I think so one of

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Speaker 3: the best skill sets you have, and because how you're raised,

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Speaker 3: So my commitment, I was kind of like you. You had

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Speaker 3: a childhood that was similar to mine, and so my

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Speaker 3: mom was just my mom and I growing up. My

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Speaker 3: parents divorce when I was three, she never remarried, and

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Speaker 3: we were in Los Angeles County, and so you kind

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Speaker 3: of grow up quick, and she didn't. She really didn't

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Speaker 3: have the bandwidth I think to raise a son. She

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Speaker 3: needed someone she could talk to about everything. So that

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Speaker 3: means you not going to get a childhood, You're just

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Speaker 3: going to get another form of adult life at a

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Speaker 3: young age. So I always was anxious and felt like

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Speaker 3: we had no protection, felt like if she wanted she

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Speaker 3: always wanted to go to the movies, and she wanted

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Speaker 3: to go to Hollywood to see a movie. Well, you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm like, I remember being like six seven years old

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Speaker 3: with a you know, woman in her early twenties, who

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Speaker 3: is my mom in Hollywood and feeling like this isn't

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Speaker 3: a safe place, Like.

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Speaker 1: Who's our protector here?

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Speaker 3: Like who's going to if something happens right now and

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Speaker 3: someone jumps out and attack, Who's going to defend us?

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Speaker 3: And I remember feeling that way my entire so that

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Speaker 3: kind of pessimism or like, hey there's something.

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Speaker 1: Became a protector in time, did well?

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Speaker 3: Right, and then you're always looking to say, hey, the

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Speaker 3: next threat is around that corner. Well, if you grow

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Speaker 3: up that way, you're always looking for the next threat.

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Speaker 1: So why did you become an atheist? Well?

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Speaker 3: I think part of it was no Christians in my family,

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Speaker 3: no friends who are Christians. My mom grew up Catholic,

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Speaker 3: but in the early sixties, if you divorced your status

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Speaker 3: within the Catholic churchly she felt that way.

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Speaker 4: The parish that she.

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Speaker 3: Was attending, she had a status change. And I thought,

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Speaker 3: this is such a ridiculous joke of none of this

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Speaker 3: could be true. Especially if it's going to treat treat,

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Speaker 3: And I thought there was sufficient explanation for the world

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Speaker 3: the way it is without having to embrace some form

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Speaker 3: of theism.

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Speaker 4: So I just stayed out of it.

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Speaker 3: Also, I can tell you that you don't know how

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Speaker 3: many people you're going to take to jail for the

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Speaker 3: most ridiculous crimes that will tell you on the way

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Speaker 3: to jail that they are Christians. So I'm like, okay,

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Speaker 3: this is what it is. I had no interest, and

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Speaker 3: so I just had no interest. And my wife, I think,

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Speaker 3: was the one who really had the first interest in like, well,

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Speaker 3: what should we raise our kids this way?

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Speaker 4: So sous than that.

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Speaker 3: We were together about eighteen years before we walked into that church,

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Speaker 3: and we were thinking, okay, we had now we have

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Speaker 3: a six and a four or a seven and a

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Speaker 3: five year old, and we're thinking. SUSY's thinking, well, do

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Speaker 3: we want to at least expose them?

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Speaker 4: I thought, no, I mean you can if you want.

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Speaker 3: My dad's a very committed atheist and he has really

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Speaker 3: as long as I've known him, he's been that way.

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Speaker 4: You're dead still living, yes, he's eighty five.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, A great story.

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Speaker 2: It reminds me a bit of Lee's trouble, and so often,

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Speaker 2: you know, Jim, the wives are the hero of the story.

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Speaker 2: So Lee stroubled, his wife comes to faith first. And

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Speaker 2: then I interviewed Darryl Strawberry. He was strung out and drugs,

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Speaker 2: actually went and served time in prison, and his wife

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Speaker 2: wouldn't let him go and she just kept after him

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Speaker 2: and he came to faith.

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Speaker 1: Same for Alice Cooper.

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Speaker 2: You know, his wife, Cheryl made a strong, principled stand

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Speaker 2: for him to get off drugs. And it's just amazing

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Speaker 2: how often the wives are sort of the unsung hero

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Speaker 2: of the spiritual story.

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Speaker 3: Susie for sure, and it's not that she was a Christian,

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Speaker 3: we both became Christians at the same time, but it

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Speaker 3: was she was interested in does the Christian worldview have

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Speaker 3: something that's important that we need to investigate? And and

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Speaker 3: my dad's the kind of person who, although he is

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Speaker 3: not a Christian, he will go to church. He'll go

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Speaker 3: to church and he knows that he's been in church

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Speaker 3: enough with him maybe with his parents, who are I

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Speaker 3: think were always kind of like cultural, kind of cultural Methodists.

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Speaker 3: That was my grandfather and my grandmother. So as they

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Speaker 3: got older, I would take them to church, and they

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Speaker 3: would happily go, but I don't know that they really

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Speaker 3: They were definitely not Bible readers. But my dad thinks

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Speaker 3: it's a useful delusion.

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Speaker 1: So he's more and whatever you believe, and here you are.

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Speaker 2: You are, you know, one of the leading apologists in

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Speaker 2: America today. You're the expert we go to to get

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Speaker 2: answers to return unbelieving friends and family. And yet you

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Speaker 2: have your father. I don't say that critically. My mother

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Speaker 2: didn't come to faith till the very end of her life.

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Speaker 2: And so I understand this because I think the hardest

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Speaker 2: people to reads are your family.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I can tell you that one year I was

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Speaker 3: going back to do a prayer breakfast and for it

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Speaker 3: or my dad's about two hours east to Dallas, and

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Speaker 3: so I'll call my dad and I said, I'm going

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Speaker 3: to after this prayer breakfast, I'm going to come out.

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Speaker 1: And see you.

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Speaker 4: He says, great.

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Speaker 3: Well, the next day before I leave, he calls me

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Speaker 3: again and he says, did you call me yesterday? And

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Speaker 3: I thought, oh, he's having memory issues, you know. He

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Speaker 3: said that time he's probably he was eighty eighty two.

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Speaker 3: It was not right in that range, and I told

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Speaker 3: my wife. I said, I'm telling you what. I am

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Speaker 3: going to Texas and when I come back, my dad

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Speaker 3: will be a Christian. I'm not leaving until he accepts

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Speaker 3: the God lives. If this could be done, so, I

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Speaker 3: remember I drove out and I got to his house

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Speaker 3: and I said, Dad, I just tried to leverage you

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Speaker 3: my relationship with him. I said, Dad, I mean, I

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Speaker 3: just can't imagine being an eternity without you. And he said,

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Speaker 3: I said, you're my best friend. He says, no, I'm

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Speaker 3: not your best friend. I said no, Actually, if I'm

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Speaker 3: honest with you, you are. And I mean I think

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Speaker 3: you are, but you are. I said, so I'm going

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Speaker 3: to tell you what, and he choked him up. I said,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to tell you what.

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Speaker 4: Tonight.

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Speaker 3: You're going to go home and I walked him through

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Speaker 3: the gospel and you're going to have this conversation with

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Speaker 3: God and he just he was We're in the car

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Speaker 3: on the way to get barbecue and Jefferson, Texas when

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Speaker 3: I had this conversation with him, and he looked over

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Speaker 3: at me and he said, I can do that.

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Speaker 4: So I didn't say anymore.

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Speaker 3: Didn't press it any further because I had been talking

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Speaker 3: to him about this, and he's never I wrote a book,

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Speaker 3: God's Crime Scene to him.

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Speaker 1: He's never read it.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So I'm like, Okay, what I was going to

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Speaker 3: take to reach him, I don't know.

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Speaker 4: So I'm driving to Baubeque.

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Speaker 1: The next day.

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Speaker 3: I pick him up and we're going to a lot

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Speaker 3: of You, Texas to pick up a bike that he

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Speaker 3: needs to have repair. He was a bike rider in

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Speaker 3: those days, even in his eighties. So I thought, okay,

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna go get your bike. So we go get

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Speaker 3: this bike. On the way to a lot of You,

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Speaker 3: I said, so, Dad, did you have that conversation with

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Speaker 3: God last night?

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Speaker 4: He says, yeah.

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Speaker 3: I thought he's on one hundred and ten acres of

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Speaker 3: piny woods, he said. I thought it was the kind

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Speaker 3: of thing I should probably go out in the woods

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Speaker 3: and have that conversation. So I left it. I thought, oh,

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Speaker 3: this is awesome. Maybe he's really made a decision. Now

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Speaker 3: in the years since I realized that, no, he's done

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Speaker 3: any more interested in God than he ever was.

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Speaker 2: He hasn't told you. You know, I have a friend

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Speaker 2: Michael Frenzies. He used to be a part of the

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Speaker 2: Columbu Crime family was being groomed to be the next

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Speaker 2: daughter Godfather and his father Sonny Frenzies, was the hit

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Speaker 2: man for the columb of crime family and was sent

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Speaker 2: to prison. In fact, when he finally died, he was

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Speaker 2: over one hundred years old, and he kept he would

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Speaker 2: get released and he would violate probation because he would

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Speaker 2: hang around mobsters and be sent back to prison again.

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Speaker 2: But so Michael, you know, we had so many conversations

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Speaker 2: about his father coming to faith, and he'd go and

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Speaker 2: visit his father, and he loved his father so much.

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Speaker 2: And then finally he found out after his father passed

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Speaker 2: that some woman went in there who was a chaplain

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Speaker 2: who shared the Gospel with him and led Sunny Frenzies

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Speaker 2: to Christ. So, you know, just as I told you,

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Speaker 2: my mom didn't come till much later, and tragically she

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Speaker 2: died only months after she made that recommitment. So we

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Speaker 2: just keep praying, you know, and I think you identified

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Speaker 2: an important thing. You said certain things, then you stopped,

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Speaker 2: and I think sometimes you know, we want to close

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Speaker 2: the deal. Only the Holy Spirit that was the deal.

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Speaker 2: But you know, Paul said some so other's water God

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Speaker 2: gives the increase and just kind of knowing when to press,

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Speaker 2: knowing when to just stop and pray and leave it

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Speaker 2: in God's hands.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that's so important with my dad

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Speaker 3: because his personality is mine. I mean, I remember growing

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Speaker 3: up my mom was very open minded, very focused on

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Speaker 3: grace and mercy, not so much on truth and justice.

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Speaker 3: My dad was always focused as a cop. He was

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Speaker 3: always seemed to me to be like the job had

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Speaker 3: poisoned him. I grew up in the arts, got a

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Speaker 3: bachelor's degree in fine art, and then I got a

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Speaker 3: master's degree in architecture, and then I joined my dad's profession.

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Speaker 3: And within three or four years of being in this profession,

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Speaker 3: I realized, oh, okay, I get it now. I see

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Speaker 3: how why he was the way he was. So I

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Speaker 3: know his personality because I had a lot of it

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Speaker 3: was built on the job and in the job, and

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Speaker 3: so I've experienced that now.

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Speaker 4: So I just know.

301
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Speaker 3: Where how far I can go before I'll take any

302
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Speaker 3: ground that I've captured and surrender it back to him.

303
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Speaker 4: So I try to.

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Speaker 3: You know, you're right, I know that there is all

305
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Speaker 3: no it's time for me to close something with him.

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Speaker 4: I also know his time.

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Speaker 3: Hey, this is this is a great advance. We've made

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Speaker 3: so much progress in this conversation. I'm just grateful that

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Speaker 3: we got this far. I'm going to leave it there

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Speaker 3: for now, So let's go back.

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Speaker 2: We got a little ahead, you know, into your life

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Speaker 2: as a believer in the work you do. But so

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Speaker 2: you're a cold case detective, you're an atheist. Your wife says,

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Speaker 2: do you want to raise our children without faith? And

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Speaker 2: so you're open to it. So you take your skill set,

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Speaker 2: your investigative techniques, and it reminds me a lot of

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Speaker 2: Lee Strouble, who was an investigative reporter for the Chicago Tribune.

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Speaker 1: This erech right.

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Speaker 2: So he took that same skill set and he was

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Speaker 2: going to disprove in his case, he wanted to disprove

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Speaker 2: the faith of his wife. But you weren't going out

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Speaker 2: to disprove it. No, you were saying, well, let's look

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Speaker 2: at it as though this were what.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, my son and I just had this converse.

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Speaker 3: He's also a detective, and he was raised out and

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Speaker 3: he was raising the generations all named Jim Wallas at

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Speaker 3: the same agency. So there's been a Jim Wallis of

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Speaker 3: that agency since nineteen sixty one. Anyway, so he was

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Speaker 3: we're on this call it yesterday. I realized it was

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Speaker 3: two hours and forty seven minutes that Jimmy and I

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Speaker 3: were talking about the theological history of different ideas in Christendom,

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Speaker 3: you know, different theological ideas. He's interested in authority, like,

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Speaker 3: how do we know this canon is the canon or

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Speaker 3: ought to be the canon? To be leave anything out?

335
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Speaker 3: Should else send something else be included? That's always Jimmy's thing, right, said,

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Speaker 3: He's been interested in that. Okay, Well for me it

337
00:15:05,685 --> 00:15:08,005
Speaker 3: was kind of similar. I it wasn't sure. I had

338
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Speaker 3: no upbringing in the church, so I didn't know anything

339
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Speaker 3: about like how.

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Speaker 4: Were these books selected?

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Speaker 1: What's the Bible?

342
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Speaker 4: What's the history?

343
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Speaker 1: Didn't care. Here's what I knew.

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Speaker 3: This pastor said that Jesus was smart, and that was

345
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Speaker 3: enough to provoke me to buy a Bible to see

346
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Speaker 3: what's so smart about Jesus.

347
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Speaker 4: So I bought a Pew Bible.

348
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Speaker 3: They were like six or seven dollars at b Dalton,

349
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Speaker 3: you know, back when they had bookstores. So I buy

350
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Speaker 3: this Pew Bible and I get it home and I'm

351
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Speaker 3: reading through the gospels looking for.

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Speaker 1: The red light. You knew to go to the Gospel

353
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Speaker 1: as well.

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Speaker 3: I knew that as he had quoted in this thing

355
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Speaker 3: something from the Gospel, and this message at church something

356
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Speaker 3: from the gospels. So I started there just where he

357
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Speaker 3: had talked about, and I looked at oh okay. Didn't

358
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Speaker 3: know how the structure of this text was. Didn't know

359
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Speaker 3: what a gospel was compared to the letters of Paul

360
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Speaker 3: or I didn't know any of that. But I did

361
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Speaker 3: know as I read through these gospels that they varied,

362
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Speaker 3: like the same event is being described in what some

363
00:16:00,205 --> 00:16:03,005
Speaker 3: people might say are two different ways, and even they

364
00:16:03,085 --> 00:16:05,005
Speaker 3: might even say they're contradictory. Now I didn't take that

365
00:16:05,085 --> 00:16:07,285
Speaker 3: view because I've been working with eyewitnesses for a number

366
00:16:07,325 --> 00:16:09,125
Speaker 3: of years by that time, and if you get five

367
00:16:09,165 --> 00:16:12,365
Speaker 3: eyewitnesses to describe something that happened just fifteen minutes ago,

368
00:16:12,765 --> 00:16:15,245
Speaker 3: you will see the same level of variation between a

369
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Speaker 3: fifteen minute old event. This is just the nature of eyewitnesses.

370
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Speaker 3: We disagree typically because we come in with certain commitments

371
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Speaker 3: to reality that drive our observations. So if I'm somebody

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Speaker 3: who loves nineteen sixties cinema, I'll probably remember everything on

373
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Speaker 3: that poster on that wall that somebody else, Oh there

374
00:16:34,805 --> 00:16:35,685
Speaker 3: was a poster on the wall.

375
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Speaker 1: I think there was a mirror on the wall. I don't.

376
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Speaker 3: It wasn't paying attention. Well, no, there's actually a poster

377
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Speaker 3: from a night. Really, these seemed like two contradictory. Was

378
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Speaker 3: because I am committed to certain things that I'm interested.

379
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Speaker 2: See and you saw that without even having a basic

380
00:16:48,165 --> 00:16:51,645
Speaker 2: understanding of Because the Gospels, as you know now, are

381
00:16:51,685 --> 00:16:55,885
Speaker 2: written from four different perspectives, you know, Matthew speaking more

382
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Speaker 2: to the Jewish mindset, and John maybe to more what

383
00:16:58,925 --> 00:17:03,125
Speaker 2: we would call secular view. You know, you know these

384
00:17:03,165 --> 00:17:05,764
Speaker 2: things we write that you may believe that ge this

385
00:17:05,885 --> 00:17:08,804
Speaker 2: is the son of God. So he's effectively wanting to

386
00:17:08,885 --> 00:17:11,685
Speaker 2: bring non believers to faith. Where Matthew it's like lots

387
00:17:11,725 --> 00:17:15,484
Speaker 2: of Old Testament references and showing how Jesus fulfilled all

388
00:17:15,484 --> 00:17:18,725
Speaker 2: these things, but both inspired by God. I see it

389
00:17:18,725 --> 00:17:21,084
Speaker 2: as sort of looking the same thing from different angles.

390
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Speaker 4: Well, look at this way.

391
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Speaker 3: If I'm doing an interview I am, and I'm interviewing

392
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Speaker 3: a boomer or maybe a gen X about what was

393
00:17:27,965 --> 00:17:31,165
Speaker 3: he wearing, I'm far more likely to get better information

394
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Speaker 3: from a woman than I am from a guy.

395
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Speaker 4: Yes, it's just if it's in that generation.

396
00:17:35,284 --> 00:17:38,445
Speaker 3: So it's because the commitments of each person, the interests

397
00:17:38,445 --> 00:17:41,205
Speaker 3: of each of each girl, and it changes generationally. There

398
00:17:41,205 --> 00:17:44,084
Speaker 3: are different things that you're interested in. And if you're somebody,

399
00:17:44,084 --> 00:17:48,524
Speaker 3: for example, who just by coincidence, happened to own the

400
00:17:48,564 --> 00:17:51,205
Speaker 3: same brand shirt, so you can tell me, no, I

401
00:17:51,244 --> 00:17:52,004
Speaker 3: know what he was wearing.

402
00:17:52,205 --> 00:17:53,405
Speaker 4: I own that shirt.

403
00:17:53,764 --> 00:17:57,365
Speaker 3: I got it at LL Bean It's an LL Beean shirt. Well,

404
00:17:57,365 --> 00:17:59,405
Speaker 3: that's great information to have, right, because I do a

405
00:17:59,405 --> 00:18:01,484
Speaker 3: search warrant I know what I'm looking for now. But

406
00:18:01,685 --> 00:18:03,644
Speaker 3: I mean, I get that unless you happen to have

407
00:18:03,725 --> 00:18:07,084
Speaker 3: a personal history that causes you to on the shirt

408
00:18:07,125 --> 00:18:09,284
Speaker 3: he's wearing. But that also means you probably missed that

409
00:18:09,324 --> 00:18:11,365
Speaker 3: thing standing over there because you were looking over here.

410
00:18:11,645 --> 00:18:14,804
Speaker 3: So your prior interest dictate the way you see in

411
00:18:14,844 --> 00:18:17,725
Speaker 3: an environment. It's not just that that I might describe

412
00:18:17,764 --> 00:18:18,204
Speaker 3: it differently.

413
00:18:18,244 --> 00:18:19,684
Speaker 4: Is that I missed it all together?

414
00:18:19,965 --> 00:18:20,084
Speaker 1: You know.

415
00:18:20,165 --> 00:18:21,205
Speaker 4: One of the things is dangerous.

416
00:18:21,244 --> 00:18:24,364
Speaker 3: I think about videos for police officers, and I'm a

417
00:18:24,365 --> 00:18:28,365
Speaker 3: favor of body cams because I think they're generally help

418
00:18:28,445 --> 00:18:30,084
Speaker 3: us more than they hurt us. But one of the

419
00:18:30,125 --> 00:18:32,764
Speaker 3: worst things about body cams is that they're not they're

420
00:18:32,804 --> 00:18:36,764
Speaker 3: not discriminatory. The same way you develop tunnel vision, especially

421
00:18:36,764 --> 00:18:39,445
Speaker 3: if you're in a crisis, trauma, traumatic moment, I will

422
00:18:39,484 --> 00:18:41,804
Speaker 3: start to not see the things in my periphery because

423
00:18:41,804 --> 00:18:44,405
Speaker 3: I'm so focused on the danger that the.

424
00:18:44,284 --> 00:18:45,205
Speaker 4: Camera doesn't do that.

425
00:18:45,244 --> 00:18:47,405
Speaker 3: When you play it the next day, it sees everything

426
00:18:47,484 --> 00:18:49,324
Speaker 3: as if as the same level of attention.

427
00:18:50,004 --> 00:18:51,685
Speaker 4: And then you could ask the officer, why didn't you

428
00:18:51,725 --> 00:18:53,964
Speaker 4: see that? Well, I don't know.

429
00:18:54,044 --> 00:18:56,165
Speaker 3: I just know in real time, all I could see

430
00:18:56,244 --> 00:18:59,124
Speaker 3: is this, even though is that available to you, Yes,

431
00:18:59,885 --> 00:19:03,044
Speaker 3: but I couldn't see it because of other issues that

432
00:19:03,244 --> 00:19:05,205
Speaker 3: caused me to focus in Well, the same is true

433
00:19:05,205 --> 00:19:07,284
Speaker 3: for any set of eyewitnesses, even if it's something like

434
00:19:07,324 --> 00:19:10,165
Speaker 3: your grandmother's birthday. If you're going to go and you're

435
00:19:10,205 --> 00:19:12,084
Speaker 3: bored in tears, you're going to have a different report

436
00:19:12,125 --> 00:19:14,604
Speaker 3: of that birthday than somebody who's animated about the gifts

437
00:19:14,604 --> 00:19:17,244
Speaker 3: that she got. You probably couldn't even tell me half

438
00:19:17,284 --> 00:19:20,205
Speaker 3: the gifts she got, but somebody else could. And it's

439
00:19:20,244 --> 00:19:24,484
Speaker 3: not because we weren't there. It's because we were there

440
00:19:24,524 --> 00:19:26,244
Speaker 3: and we're two different people. So when I read to

441
00:19:26,324 --> 00:19:28,885
Speaker 3: the Gospels for the first time, I thought, oh, there's

442
00:19:28,925 --> 00:19:32,205
Speaker 3: like an embedded flavor here. That feels like it I

443
00:19:32,205 --> 00:19:35,405
Speaker 3: would expect it to feel, because certainly they had centuries

444
00:19:35,445 --> 00:19:38,004
Speaker 3: to work these issues out. If they wanted to eliminate

445
00:19:38,044 --> 00:19:40,205
Speaker 3: the differences between the gospels, it could have been done

446
00:19:40,244 --> 00:19:42,684
Speaker 3: before any of us would ever be the wiser. But

447
00:19:42,725 --> 00:19:44,684
Speaker 3: they left them in because this is the nature of

448
00:19:44,685 --> 00:19:45,645
Speaker 3: eyewitness accounts.

449
00:19:45,685 --> 00:19:49,484
Speaker 4: So I thought, okay, and I say, eyewitness accounts. Here's why.

450
00:19:49,885 --> 00:19:52,724
Speaker 3: Well, John has historically been attributed as the writer of

451
00:19:53,004 --> 00:19:55,844
Speaker 3: the Gospel of John, and Matthew has historically been attributed

452
00:19:56,284 --> 00:19:59,244
Speaker 3: that gospel has been attributed to Matthew. But Mark, I

453
00:19:59,244 --> 00:20:01,965
Speaker 3: think there's an entire line of good evidence that that

454
00:20:02,044 --> 00:20:05,405
Speaker 3: is Peter's Gospel written in Rome. I think it's the

455
00:20:05,524 --> 00:20:07,924
Speaker 3: first Gospel. And I can make that case later. But

456
00:20:07,965 --> 00:20:10,564
Speaker 3: the point is it's a god. It's an eyewitness account

457
00:20:10,604 --> 00:20:13,685
Speaker 3: recorded by Mark. It's Peter's eyewitness account. And Luke tells

458
00:20:13,764 --> 00:20:18,445
Speaker 3: us that he is writing the eyewitness accounts of others, eyewitnesses.

459
00:20:17,764 --> 00:20:20,524
Speaker 4: And servants of the word. Well, he interviewed people.

460
00:20:20,725 --> 00:20:21,565
Speaker 1: Right. Well, let's put this way.

461
00:20:21,604 --> 00:20:23,084
Speaker 3: When I get a case, I get a bunch of

462
00:20:23,084 --> 00:20:26,164
Speaker 3: supple in our reports that contain eyewitness accounts well, you

463
00:20:26,244 --> 00:20:29,324
Speaker 3: know that none of them were actually written by the eyewitness.

464
00:20:29,445 --> 00:20:32,645
Speaker 3: They're written by detectives who interviewed an eyewitness.

465
00:20:33,205 --> 00:20:34,404
Speaker 1: So that's that's what.

466
00:20:34,604 --> 00:20:37,725
Speaker 3: There's still eyewitness accounts even though they're not written by

467
00:20:37,725 --> 00:20:40,524
Speaker 3: the eyewitness. They're written by somebody who has access to

468
00:20:40,604 --> 00:20:44,084
Speaker 3: the eyewitness. So I look at Mark and Luke and

469
00:20:44,125 --> 00:20:47,125
Speaker 3: I jumped them in so I can now test these

470
00:20:47,844 --> 00:20:50,524
Speaker 3: given all the parameters we use in criminal trials to

471
00:20:50,564 --> 00:20:51,645
Speaker 3: test eyewitnesses, And.

472
00:20:51,604 --> 00:20:54,084
Speaker 1: There's like what was the turning point? Like what did

473
00:20:54,165 --> 00:20:55,884
Speaker 1: a light go on? Or all of a sudden that

474
00:20:56,004 --> 00:20:57,564
Speaker 1: this is it? Or was a little more.

475
00:20:57,484 --> 00:20:59,804
Speaker 3: Graduate it was more great Because here's the even like

476
00:20:59,844 --> 00:21:01,764
Speaker 3: any case I work, I don't have a lot of

477
00:21:01,804 --> 00:21:03,884
Speaker 3: DNA cases, just that one I told you about with

478
00:21:03,925 --> 00:21:06,164
Speaker 3: that ten year old. That's the only DA case I've

479
00:21:06,205 --> 00:21:09,764
Speaker 3: ever had. In cold cases, I make cases by a

480
00:21:09,885 --> 00:21:12,564
Speaker 3: mass quantity, a cumulative, circumstantial case.

481
00:21:12,645 --> 00:21:13,845
Speaker 4: It's fifty things.

482
00:21:14,004 --> 00:21:16,844
Speaker 3: It's death by a thousand paper cuts, it's fifty things

483
00:21:16,844 --> 00:21:19,125
Speaker 3: that point to that guy. Now, any one of those

484
00:21:19,165 --> 00:21:21,645
Speaker 3: fifty things might not seem like much, but in total,

485
00:21:21,725 --> 00:21:24,205
Speaker 3: it's like, oh yeah, this is overwhelming. Who else could

486
00:21:24,244 --> 00:21:27,565
Speaker 3: it be that could meet all of these fifty conditions. Well,

487
00:21:27,645 --> 00:21:30,685
Speaker 3: so it's small little pieces of evidence that don't seem

488
00:21:30,725 --> 00:21:32,924
Speaker 3: like much on their own that point back to the

489
00:21:32,965 --> 00:21:34,164
Speaker 3: same suspect.

490
00:21:34,284 --> 00:21:37,524
Speaker 4: That's all my cases. So here it was the same thing.

491
00:21:38,925 --> 00:21:43,885
Speaker 3: Yeah, at some point the body of evidences was overwhelming

492
00:21:43,885 --> 00:21:45,884
Speaker 3: to me, and each one of them might seem like

493
00:21:45,885 --> 00:21:48,244
Speaker 3: a little bit of nothing. So you can look at

494
00:21:48,284 --> 00:21:50,164
Speaker 3: the archaeological support. You can look at the fact that

495
00:21:50,205 --> 00:21:52,484
Speaker 3: the language is consistent with people who would write in

496
00:21:52,484 --> 00:21:55,405
Speaker 3: the first century in that region. Even the use of pronouns,

497
00:21:55,564 --> 00:21:58,205
Speaker 3: these are all consistent. There's lots of different lines of

498
00:21:58,244 --> 00:22:00,764
Speaker 3: evidence you could look at. Now, here's what I would

499
00:22:00,804 --> 00:22:03,804
Speaker 3: say is that the deal killer for most people, And

500
00:22:04,725 --> 00:22:07,205
Speaker 3: there's these four criteria that I've talked about in cold

501
00:22:07,205 --> 00:22:10,604
Speaker 3: case Christianity. Just were they really there to see what

502
00:22:10,604 --> 00:22:13,605
Speaker 3: they said they saw? Have they changed their story over time,

503
00:22:13,685 --> 00:22:16,164
Speaker 3: can they be corroborated, even in a small way, And finally,

504
00:22:16,165 --> 00:22:17,564
Speaker 3: do they have a bias that would cause them to

505
00:22:17,604 --> 00:22:20,205
Speaker 3: lie to us? That's how we test all eyewitnesses and

506
00:22:20,284 --> 00:22:23,044
Speaker 3: jury trials. You could apply that template to the Gospels.

507
00:22:23,044 --> 00:22:26,884
Speaker 3: You'd be surprised with a land But there's a lot

508
00:22:26,885 --> 00:22:29,924
Speaker 3: of skeptics out there, and they're typically skeptical because the

509
00:22:29,925 --> 00:22:33,764
Speaker 3: Gospels contain miracles, supernatural events.

510
00:22:33,925 --> 00:22:35,124
Speaker 4: Let's put it this way.

511
00:22:35,244 --> 00:22:38,364
Speaker 3: If the Gospels were just a story about a first

512
00:22:38,365 --> 00:22:43,085
Speaker 3: century rabbi who had great sermons, nice guy, never worked

513
00:22:43,084 --> 00:22:45,044
Speaker 3: a miracle, but not born of a version, never rose

514
00:22:45,044 --> 00:22:49,725
Speaker 3: from the grave, just a smart preaching rabbi, nobody would

515
00:22:49,764 --> 00:22:52,524
Speaker 3: doubt the historicity of the Gospels. Based on the fact

516
00:22:52,564 --> 00:22:56,444
Speaker 3: we have so much overwhelming manuscript evidence. Nobody would doubt anything.

517
00:22:56,685 --> 00:23:00,404
Speaker 3: There's no better ancient a tested on manuscript evidence than

518
00:23:00,484 --> 00:23:04,524
Speaker 3: Jesus of Nazareth. But if you insert one miracle, just one,

519
00:23:05,084 --> 00:23:07,165
Speaker 3: everyone's says, oh, that's got to be I'm out. So

520
00:23:07,205 --> 00:23:09,084
Speaker 3: that tells you right now that this is not about

521
00:23:09,084 --> 00:23:12,564
Speaker 3: the manuscript evidence or the historical evidence. It's about a

522
00:23:12,604 --> 00:23:17,205
Speaker 3: presuppositional bias against the supernatural because people don't think the

523
00:23:17,244 --> 00:23:20,084
Speaker 3: supernatural exists in a modern world. They'll say, Hey, if

524
00:23:20,125 --> 00:23:23,405
Speaker 3: you're doing history and you're going to insert something supernatural,

525
00:23:23,405 --> 00:23:24,685
Speaker 3: you're no longer in the right genre.

526
00:23:24,725 --> 00:23:26,404
Speaker 4: You're not in history now, you're in mythology.

527
00:23:27,125 --> 00:23:30,125
Speaker 3: You just shifted because there's no we don't have room

528
00:23:30,205 --> 00:23:33,405
Speaker 3: for the supernatural in history anymore than we have room

529
00:23:33,445 --> 00:23:38,645
Speaker 3: for the supernatural in science. So we've naturalized, we've we've

530
00:23:38,725 --> 00:23:42,444
Speaker 3: kind of stripped out anything beyond the physical realm in

531
00:23:42,484 --> 00:23:43,804
Speaker 3: both history and science.

532
00:23:43,844 --> 00:23:46,364
Speaker 4: And there's the question I have, do we like we

533
00:23:46,405 --> 00:23:46,644
Speaker 4: talked to?

534
00:23:46,804 --> 00:23:47,445
Speaker 1: There's people we.

535
00:23:47,405 --> 00:23:50,844
Speaker 3: Know, intellectuals in culture today who have big podcast audiences

536
00:23:51,205 --> 00:23:54,405
Speaker 3: who really kind of deny supernatural claims. Yet they think

537
00:23:54,484 --> 00:24:00,004
Speaker 3: they are they are considering this notion with their immaterial mind.

538
00:24:01,165 --> 00:24:04,444
Speaker 3: We're more than just brains, we have immateial minds.

539
00:24:04,484 --> 00:24:05,285
Speaker 1: We're more than just.

540
00:24:05,804 --> 00:24:07,205
Speaker 4: We're soulish creatures.

541
00:24:07,804 --> 00:24:10,445
Speaker 3: Well, how do we explain the soulish nature or the

542
00:24:10,604 --> 00:24:14,725
Speaker 3: immaterial mind in an entirely physical universe? There has to

543
00:24:14,764 --> 00:24:20,764
Speaker 3: be something beyond pure physicalism. There has to be there's

544
00:24:20,804 --> 00:24:23,684
Speaker 3: something outside of the physical realm that governs the universe.

545
00:24:23,725 --> 00:24:26,564
Speaker 2: So what made it happen for Jim Wallace? Was there

546
00:24:26,604 --> 00:24:28,844
Speaker 2: a moment? Did you pray a prayer? Did you Well?

547
00:24:28,925 --> 00:24:31,284
Speaker 3: I remember getting to a point where I was like, wow, okay,

548
00:24:31,284 --> 00:24:33,124
Speaker 3: you test it in these four areas. I think it's

549
00:24:33,165 --> 00:24:36,484
Speaker 3: written early enough because if you want to lie about Jesus,

550
00:24:36,564 --> 00:24:38,484
Speaker 3: just wait till everyone knows the truth is dead. Then

551
00:24:38,484 --> 00:24:40,685
Speaker 3: you can say whatever you want. I think it's written early,

552
00:24:41,284 --> 00:24:43,965
Speaker 3: and I make a case of my own evidence. Is

553
00:24:44,004 --> 00:24:46,924
Speaker 3: there a case for early dating? Yes, I needed to know.

554
00:24:47,365 --> 00:24:48,325
Speaker 3: Has a changed over time?

555
00:24:48,405 --> 00:24:48,884
Speaker 1: No, it hasn't.

556
00:24:48,965 --> 00:24:50,924
Speaker 3: The claims of Jesus, as crazy as they may be,

557
00:24:51,484 --> 00:24:52,725
Speaker 3: have always been that crazy.

558
00:24:52,885 --> 00:24:55,604
Speaker 1: And you're thirty five years old. Thirty five years old.

559
00:24:55,604 --> 00:24:59,684
Speaker 2: Most people make a decision for Christ around eighteen, So

560
00:24:59,804 --> 00:25:01,884
Speaker 2: you waited. I mean, this is you know, you're really

561
00:25:01,885 --> 00:25:05,004
Speaker 2: thinking this through. Most people, I don't think go through

562
00:25:05,044 --> 00:25:06,764
Speaker 2: a like you went through.

563
00:25:06,844 --> 00:25:07,004
Speaker 1: Well.

564
00:25:07,004 --> 00:25:09,324
Speaker 3: I remember there was a new believer's class, and I

565
00:25:09,365 --> 00:25:12,324
Speaker 3: wasn't a believer, but I went to it at this church,

566
00:25:12,844 --> 00:25:17,484
Speaker 3: and I remember them making arguments on the whiteboard and thinking, eh,

567
00:25:17,925 --> 00:25:19,925
Speaker 3: you know it's okay. I mean, yeah, I can see

568
00:25:19,925 --> 00:25:22,164
Speaker 3: why you might already if you already believe, you might

569
00:25:22,205 --> 00:25:26,604
Speaker 3: think that's persuasive. But I remember being skeptical and just

570
00:25:26,645 --> 00:25:28,205
Speaker 3: taking time to do it. So I remember at one

571
00:25:28,244 --> 00:25:30,484
Speaker 3: point I was laying in bed frind to fall asleep,

572
00:25:30,524 --> 00:25:33,284
Speaker 3: and I said to Susan, you know, I think I

573
00:25:33,284 --> 00:25:35,725
Speaker 3: think they're reliable. I mean i think I'm kind of

574
00:25:35,804 --> 00:25:37,525
Speaker 3: like I'm feeling like I'm stuck with Jesus right now.

575
00:25:37,685 --> 00:25:38,844
Speaker 1: She had already become a believer.

576
00:25:39,084 --> 00:25:41,164
Speaker 3: No, I think she was definitely the more open to

577
00:25:41,165 --> 00:25:42,965
Speaker 3: it because but all this during this time, like we're

578
00:25:43,004 --> 00:25:44,725
Speaker 3: hitting miss but we're for the most part trying to

579
00:25:44,725 --> 00:25:46,925
Speaker 3: go to church, trying to see what these guys are saying.

580
00:25:47,125 --> 00:25:48,764
Speaker 3: But we weren't through like every week, but we were

581
00:25:48,804 --> 00:25:52,405
Speaker 3: pretty pretty relatively consistent. And so I remember saying to her,

582
00:25:53,084 --> 00:25:55,884
Speaker 3: I think this is I think. I'm like, I'm not

583
00:25:55,885 --> 00:25:57,085
Speaker 3: sure what to do with this. Here's what I don't

584
00:25:57,125 --> 00:25:59,284
Speaker 3: understand though. I don't understand why, if there is a God,

585
00:25:59,324 --> 00:26:01,884
Speaker 3: and if this is true, why would Jesus have to

586
00:26:01,925 --> 00:26:04,685
Speaker 3: die on a cross like I did. I was convinced

587
00:26:04,685 --> 00:26:07,965
Speaker 3: the gospels were accurate and reliable, but I did not

588
00:26:08,165 --> 00:26:09,685
Speaker 3: yet understand the gospel.

589
00:26:09,725 --> 00:26:10,845
Speaker 1: And that's the whole point.

590
00:26:11,125 --> 00:26:13,725
Speaker 3: Yeah, but here's what was different though for me. I

591
00:26:13,844 --> 00:26:17,405
Speaker 3: no longer had these walls standing between me and the gospel.

592
00:26:18,004 --> 00:26:19,044
Speaker 1: So now I can actually I.

593
00:26:19,084 --> 00:26:22,605
Speaker 2: Think that's what apologetics do and effect is they take

594
00:26:22,645 --> 00:26:23,445
Speaker 2: down the wall.

595
00:26:24,564 --> 00:26:27,804
Speaker 3: I don't think that there's any Only the Gospel has power.

596
00:26:27,885 --> 00:26:32,324
Speaker 3: You know that there's no power an unapologetic argument. There's

597
00:26:32,445 --> 00:26:34,685
Speaker 3: only power in the gospel. The problem is, though there's

598
00:26:34,725 --> 00:26:38,084
Speaker 3: many people who like my dad, I think still who

599
00:26:38,125 --> 00:26:40,765
Speaker 3: when you hear the gospel, when you present the gospel,

600
00:26:40,804 --> 00:26:42,284
Speaker 3: you're trying to figure out a new way to say it.

601
00:26:42,284 --> 00:26:44,524
Speaker 3: Because he's heard it so many times and he's only

602
00:26:44,564 --> 00:26:46,965
Speaker 3: hearing I think, blah blah blah, like Charlie Brown and

603
00:26:47,004 --> 00:26:49,244
Speaker 3: his teacher, you know, wanh wanh wanh wanh wanh So

604
00:26:49,365 --> 00:26:53,205
Speaker 3: he's not hearing it. And so it's because he's put

605
00:26:53,324 --> 00:26:56,804
Speaker 3: a ton of stuff between him and the gospel message.

606
00:26:57,004 --> 00:26:58,244
Speaker 3: And I have to figure out, like what is the

607
00:26:58,284 --> 00:27:00,324
Speaker 3: stuff he's putting in there? Because if I can.

608
00:27:00,284 --> 00:27:00,965
Speaker 1: Get rid of that.

609
00:27:02,284 --> 00:27:03,924
Speaker 3: And now you could argue that really you can't get

610
00:27:04,004 --> 00:27:05,764
Speaker 3: rid of that, Jim, that that's something that God has

611
00:27:05,804 --> 00:27:07,525
Speaker 3: to get rid of. Yes, but God uses us, right,

612
00:27:07,564 --> 00:27:10,004
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, clearly God could have had said

613
00:27:10,004 --> 00:27:12,484
Speaker 3: that when we're born, we are born with an innate

614
00:27:12,564 --> 00:27:14,324
Speaker 3: sense of the Gospel, never need to hear it, or

615
00:27:14,645 --> 00:27:16,445
Speaker 3: he would visit every one of us at our tenth

616
00:27:16,484 --> 00:27:18,404
Speaker 3: birthday in our dreams and present the gospel.

617
00:27:18,484 --> 00:27:20,084
Speaker 4: Fully, he could do it any way he wants.

618
00:27:20,125 --> 00:27:22,524
Speaker 3: It turns out he uses us for some reason, and

619
00:27:22,604 --> 00:27:25,205
Speaker 3: I think he also uses us to, like you said,

620
00:27:25,284 --> 00:27:28,165
Speaker 3: to sow that ground, to break up that ground so

621
00:27:28,284 --> 00:27:30,965
Speaker 3: that somebody can plant to seed, because right now it's

622
00:27:31,044 --> 00:27:33,565
Speaker 3: just bouncing off. And that was me, It was all

623
00:27:33,604 --> 00:27:36,404
Speaker 3: those There were people who I'm trying to think if

624
00:27:36,405 --> 00:27:39,924
Speaker 3: I ever heard the Gospel before I bought a Bible,

625
00:27:41,284 --> 00:27:43,405
Speaker 3: and I don't. If I did, I don't remember hearing it,

626
00:27:43,925 --> 00:27:46,364
Speaker 3: and probably I did, but I just did not hear

627
00:27:46,405 --> 00:27:47,644
Speaker 3: it because I didn't want to hear it.

628
00:27:47,764 --> 00:27:50,804
Speaker 2: Now you've written a book called I'm Jim Wallace and

629
00:27:50,885 --> 00:27:54,084
Speaker 2: You're Not, which I think is an arrogant title. Down there,

630
00:27:55,324 --> 00:27:58,604
Speaker 2: it's well like true would be I'm Jay Warner Wallas.

631
00:27:59,324 --> 00:28:00,285
Speaker 1: You know why I took that name?

632
00:28:00,764 --> 00:28:01,204
Speaker 2: You know why?

633
00:28:01,324 --> 00:28:04,565
Speaker 3: Probably do you know who Jim Wallace is of Sojourners? Oh?

634
00:28:04,885 --> 00:28:08,925
Speaker 1: Yes, okay. So I was doing Radio Understood.

635
00:28:08,445 --> 00:28:10,884
Speaker 3: When I first started, and I was just Jim Wallace

636
00:28:11,244 --> 00:28:12,685
Speaker 3: and one of the radio hosts says, I can't have

637
00:28:12,804 --> 00:28:14,284
Speaker 3: you on anymore with that name, because if I say

638
00:28:14,324 --> 00:28:16,044
Speaker 3: I'm want to have Jim Wallace on tomorrow, they all

639
00:28:16,125 --> 00:28:19,165
Speaker 3: think you're that guy. So, and he's very different. He's

640
00:28:19,165 --> 00:28:21,884
Speaker 3: a he's a very politically active guy. Let me tell

641
00:28:21,885 --> 00:28:25,484
Speaker 3: a quick side story. So I Trump's first administration. I

642
00:28:25,685 --> 00:28:28,324
Speaker 3: was part of this group of Christians who was going

643
00:28:28,405 --> 00:28:31,805
Speaker 3: to go and look at law enforce law enforcement reform

644
00:28:32,165 --> 00:28:36,564
Speaker 3: in Washington, D C. And Trump's legal her Christian advisor, Pam,

645
00:28:36,685 --> 00:28:38,245
Speaker 3: She called me and said, would you come to this

646
00:28:38,365 --> 00:28:41,965
Speaker 3: meeting of all you know, politically active people. So I said, sure,

647
00:28:41,965 --> 00:28:44,884
Speaker 3: I'll come. So I go walk into the room in Washington,

648
00:28:45,005 --> 00:28:47,005
Speaker 3: D C. And I see at one of the tables

649
00:28:47,045 --> 00:28:48,925
Speaker 3: there's a name tag for Jim Wallace. He spells his

650
00:28:49,045 --> 00:28:50,124
Speaker 3: name W A L L.

651
00:28:50,285 --> 00:28:50,644
Speaker 1: I S.

652
00:28:51,765 --> 00:28:54,045
Speaker 3: Very different approach to how to how to think about

653
00:28:54,084 --> 00:28:56,644
Speaker 3: law enforcement, very different approach to almost everything from me.

654
00:28:56,885 --> 00:29:00,604
Speaker 3: We're almost completely different, I ideological extremes. But I got

655
00:29:00,645 --> 00:29:02,124
Speaker 3: a chance to meet him. So he comes in and

656
00:29:02,165 --> 00:29:03,364
Speaker 3: I shook his hand and I said, I want you

657
00:29:03,445 --> 00:29:05,925
Speaker 3: to know you're the reason why I use j Warner

658
00:29:06,005 --> 00:29:08,885
Speaker 3: Wallace because my name is Jim Wallace and him, yeah,

659
00:29:08,885 --> 00:29:10,644
Speaker 3: I told him this and we laughed about it, and

660
00:29:10,725 --> 00:29:12,525
Speaker 3: that was the last, I think kind thing we said

661
00:29:12,565 --> 00:29:14,725
Speaker 3: to each other the entire moeting, because we are so

662
00:29:14,925 --> 00:29:17,285
Speaker 3: different in terms of our approach to law enforcement. But

663
00:29:17,405 --> 00:29:20,364
Speaker 3: that's why I go by Jay Warner Wallace. Also, you know,

664
00:29:20,565 --> 00:29:23,364
Speaker 3: you were saying if you don't have a good male

665
00:29:23,565 --> 00:29:26,404
Speaker 3: role model, that maybe it's a stepfather, or maybe it's

666
00:29:26,445 --> 00:29:28,565
Speaker 3: somebody who becomes the guy who you think, Hey, that's

667
00:29:28,604 --> 00:29:30,364
Speaker 3: my dad. Well, I have a great dad, I mean,

668
00:29:30,445 --> 00:29:32,045
Speaker 3: but he was not available to me a lot of

669
00:29:32,084 --> 00:29:34,445
Speaker 3: the time. And the man who had the biggest impact

670
00:29:34,525 --> 00:29:37,445
Speaker 3: on my life was a guy named Warner Wallace, my grandfather.

671
00:29:38,165 --> 00:29:41,005
Speaker 3: So even before I became a Christian, all my search

672
00:29:41,045 --> 00:29:44,165
Speaker 3: warrants said Jay Warner Wallace to tip the hat, tip

673
00:29:44,245 --> 00:29:45,205
Speaker 3: my grandfather.

674
00:29:45,885 --> 00:29:47,164
Speaker 4: So I just took that name because it.

675
00:29:47,205 --> 00:29:51,765
Speaker 2: Was beautiful, you know, jd Vance or vice president. You know,

676
00:29:51,925 --> 00:29:55,325
Speaker 2: his mother had huge addiction issues, and he had his

677
00:29:55,645 --> 00:30:01,325
Speaker 2: grandmother who called Memma, who literally rescued him. He wrote

678
00:30:01,325 --> 00:30:04,045
Speaker 2: a book about it called Hillbilly Elegy, and a movie

679
00:30:04,165 --> 00:30:06,285
Speaker 2: was made about it as well. And she saw his

680
00:30:06,405 --> 00:30:08,245
Speaker 2: life was going the wrong way and she took him in.

681
00:30:08,365 --> 00:30:10,605
Speaker 2: She's very rough around yet, just kind of a woman,

682
00:30:11,165 --> 00:30:14,685
Speaker 2: very country type woman. But you know he attributes be

683
00:30:14,885 --> 00:30:17,364
Speaker 2: you know, basically getting through that and going on to

684
00:30:17,525 --> 00:30:20,885
Speaker 2: obviously get a great education and then become a senator,

685
00:30:21,005 --> 00:30:24,204
Speaker 2: most significantly the vice president, but I love to hear

686
00:30:24,245 --> 00:30:27,005
Speaker 2: when grandparents step in. You know, my mother was married

687
00:30:27,045 --> 00:30:30,485
Speaker 2: and divorce seven times, and I lived with my grandmother,

688
00:30:30,604 --> 00:30:33,925
Speaker 2: who he called Mama Stella because that's a Southern way

689
00:30:33,965 --> 00:30:36,124
Speaker 2: of calling them, you know, their first name with mama

690
00:30:36,245 --> 00:30:39,085
Speaker 2: or daddy attached to it. And it was the time

691
00:30:39,165 --> 00:30:41,725
Speaker 2: of stability in my childhood that my mother was not

692
00:30:41,844 --> 00:30:43,884
Speaker 2: able to provide. But before I got of from this

693
00:30:44,045 --> 00:30:46,445
Speaker 2: rabbit trail about mocking you about a book you didn't

694
00:30:46,485 --> 00:30:48,565
Speaker 2: even write, I was going to say, you really did

695
00:30:48,645 --> 00:30:51,685
Speaker 2: write a book called Cold Case Christianity. And in this

696
00:30:51,965 --> 00:30:57,844
Speaker 2: book you identify ten what is it, ten principles that

697
00:30:58,365 --> 00:31:01,485
Speaker 2: are of detective work. Yeah, tell me about the ten

698
00:31:01,565 --> 00:31:04,485
Speaker 2: principles and maybe tell me if there's one that stands

699
00:31:04,525 --> 00:31:07,685
Speaker 2: out above the others that we can apply when we're

700
00:31:07,885 --> 00:31:10,005
Speaker 2: trying to communicate our faith with others.

701
00:31:10,084 --> 00:31:11,805
Speaker 4: Okay, So I think there's a couple of things here. Yeah,

702
00:31:11,805 --> 00:31:13,245
Speaker 4: I think a lot of it. You might say, well,

703
00:31:13,325 --> 00:31:14,445
Speaker 4: how do you how do we think?

704
00:31:14,525 --> 00:31:16,645
Speaker 3: Well, and I'm not to say that detectives always think well,

705
00:31:16,725 --> 00:31:17,965
Speaker 3: but we have to think in a way that we

706
00:31:18,005 --> 00:31:20,924
Speaker 3: can then communicate to a jury. So howe whatever process

707
00:31:20,965 --> 00:31:23,005
Speaker 3: we're going to put in place. It is eventually going

708
00:31:23,084 --> 00:31:24,724
Speaker 3: to get tested in front of a jury, and if

709
00:31:24,725 --> 00:31:27,485
Speaker 3: we didn't do it well, we don't understand these basic principles,

710
00:31:27,485 --> 00:31:29,685
Speaker 3: it's going to get exposed. So I think we try

711
00:31:29,725 --> 00:31:32,725
Speaker 3: to be tight about how we think about investigating claims.

712
00:31:33,165 --> 00:31:34,805
Speaker 3: So a couple of things I think will help people

713
00:31:34,925 --> 00:31:38,525
Speaker 3: maybe hadn't thought about. Well, what could you learn? Give

714
00:31:38,565 --> 00:31:40,925
Speaker 3: you a simple one. There's a big difference between what's

715
00:31:41,005 --> 00:31:44,604
Speaker 3: possible and what's reasonable. This idea, this idea that we

716
00:31:44,725 --> 00:31:46,005
Speaker 3: are trying to make a case in front of a

717
00:31:46,084 --> 00:31:49,005
Speaker 3: jury beyond a reasonable doubt. That's a lower standard than

718
00:31:49,084 --> 00:31:53,125
Speaker 3: beyond a possible doubt. Possible because there's no possible way

719
00:31:53,165 --> 00:31:56,285
Speaker 3: this could be wrong. Now, I think that I'll never

720
00:31:56,445 --> 00:31:58,565
Speaker 3: say I could prove anything, and I tell juries all

721
00:31:58,565 --> 00:32:00,485
Speaker 3: the time, I could never prove this beyond a possible

722
00:32:00,565 --> 00:32:04,924
Speaker 3: doubt because I have unanswered questions, and those questions are

723
00:32:04,965 --> 00:32:07,765
Speaker 3: what separate reasonable. I'm beyond a reasonable doubt. I think

724
00:32:07,765 --> 00:32:10,165
Speaker 3: he's the guy, but I can't answer. So I tell

725
00:32:10,245 --> 00:32:11,965
Speaker 3: juris all the time. We tell them we will say

726
00:32:12,005 --> 00:32:14,045
Speaker 3: this very commonly. We're going to tell you everything you

727
00:32:14,205 --> 00:32:16,405
Speaker 3: need to know, but not everything that could be known,

728
00:32:16,485 --> 00:32:18,645
Speaker 3: because we don't even know everything that could be known.

729
00:32:18,885 --> 00:32:20,885
Speaker 3: We know that he did it, and we can demonstrate

730
00:32:20,965 --> 00:32:24,165
Speaker 3: that for you, but until he confesses, we won't know

731
00:32:24,285 --> 00:32:27,364
Speaker 3: precisely how he did it or why he did it,

732
00:32:27,805 --> 00:32:28,645
Speaker 3: because we can only.

733
00:32:28,565 --> 00:32:29,445
Speaker 4: Imagine those things.

734
00:32:29,965 --> 00:32:31,604
Speaker 3: So you're gonna have to make a decision about this

735
00:32:32,445 --> 00:32:35,124
Speaker 3: beyond a reasonable doubt, even though you're gonna have unanswered

736
00:32:35,245 --> 00:32:36,245
Speaker 3: questions that would put you.

737
00:32:36,325 --> 00:32:37,445
Speaker 4: Beyond a possible doubt.

738
00:32:37,645 --> 00:32:41,125
Speaker 3: There's nothing you know we tell jurors beyond a possible doubt,

739
00:32:41,685 --> 00:32:44,685
Speaker 3: even our existence in this podcast. People who are watching

740
00:32:44,725 --> 00:32:46,685
Speaker 3: this right now, do they know it's really us? But

741
00:32:46,725 --> 00:32:48,485
Speaker 3: the AI, being as good as it is, do they

742
00:32:48,565 --> 00:32:49,325
Speaker 3: really know it's us?

743
00:32:49,925 --> 00:32:50,485
Speaker 1: You don't even know.

744
00:32:50,965 --> 00:32:53,045
Speaker 3: Is it possible it's not us? Yes, it is possible,

745
00:32:53,084 --> 00:32:55,084
Speaker 3: but it's not reasonable, and we live in the area

746
00:32:55,165 --> 00:32:57,765
Speaker 3: of what's reasonable. I tell jurors all the time. I'm

747
00:32:57,765 --> 00:33:00,604
Speaker 3: going to give you a line of evidences that point

748
00:33:00,805 --> 00:33:04,245
Speaker 3: right to this defendant. Now, you're not going to point

749
00:33:04,245 --> 00:33:05,404
Speaker 3: a foot to the left or foot to the right

750
00:33:05,604 --> 00:33:08,125
Speaker 3: of him. They're going to lead you right up to him,

751
00:33:08,445 --> 00:33:11,084
Speaker 3: but they're going to stop short because I don't know everything.

752
00:33:11,125 --> 00:33:11,485
Speaker 1: I could know.

753
00:33:11,685 --> 00:33:12,844
Speaker 4: I just know what's needed to know.

754
00:33:13,405 --> 00:33:16,165
Speaker 3: And this gap between the end of the evidence trail

755
00:33:16,604 --> 00:33:20,325
Speaker 3: and his position is a gap that is filled with

756
00:33:20,445 --> 00:33:21,884
Speaker 3: all of your unanswered questions.

757
00:33:21,965 --> 00:33:22,604
Speaker 1: I'm still going to.

758
00:33:22,604 --> 00:33:24,765
Speaker 3: Ask you at the end of this, though, to take

759
00:33:24,805 --> 00:33:28,005
Speaker 3: the most reasonable step and render a verdict, because it's

760
00:33:28,084 --> 00:33:31,045
Speaker 3: pointing or right to him. You cannot get hung up

761
00:33:31,165 --> 00:33:34,085
Speaker 3: on your unanswered questions. And we tell people all the time,

762
00:33:34,084 --> 00:33:36,005
Speaker 3: if you're the kind of person who needs to have

763
00:33:36,245 --> 00:33:38,604
Speaker 3: every question answered before you can render a verdict, you're

764
00:33:38,604 --> 00:33:41,005
Speaker 3: going to get excused because we can't use those kind

765
00:33:41,045 --> 00:33:43,724
Speaker 3: of people. I can never answer every possible question. Well,

766
00:33:43,725 --> 00:33:45,125
Speaker 3: the same thing is true by consis.

767
00:33:44,844 --> 00:33:48,124
Speaker 2: I've been chosen for jury duty two times and they

768
00:33:48,165 --> 00:33:52,685
Speaker 2: always reject me. I get into the box and it's like, okay,

769
00:33:53,405 --> 00:33:54,045
Speaker 2: get out of here.

770
00:33:54,165 --> 00:33:55,884
Speaker 1: Yeah right, I don't know. There's something that.

771
00:33:56,565 --> 00:33:58,165
Speaker 4: So a lot of it is is that they're looking

772
00:33:58,205 --> 00:33:58,525
Speaker 4: for people.

773
00:33:58,604 --> 00:34:00,285
Speaker 3: Each side is trying to put the jury that they

774
00:34:00,285 --> 00:34:02,165
Speaker 3: think is going to favor them, and most of the time,

775
00:34:02,445 --> 00:34:04,925
Speaker 3: if they think that you're a somebody who holds to

776
00:34:04,965 --> 00:34:08,405
Speaker 3: certain object of religious truths and moral truths, then sometimes

777
00:34:08,445 --> 00:34:10,485
Speaker 3: we get excluded. I get that, but that's okay, But

778
00:34:10,565 --> 00:34:12,245
Speaker 3: I say the same thing about Jesus. You're gonna have

779
00:34:12,325 --> 00:34:14,405
Speaker 3: evidence that's going to point right to the doors. It's

780
00:34:14,405 --> 00:34:15,765
Speaker 3: not going to point to a foot to the left

781
00:34:15,805 --> 00:34:17,565
Speaker 3: of Jesus or a foot to the right, but it's

782
00:34:17,605 --> 00:34:20,205
Speaker 3: going to stop short of what you might like to have.

783
00:34:20,845 --> 00:34:21,605
Speaker 1: And those are all of.

784
00:34:21,645 --> 00:34:24,925
Speaker 3: Your unanswered questions about why would God allow this? How

785
00:34:25,045 --> 00:34:27,405
Speaker 3: is it that God has you know, a sovereignty, yet

786
00:34:27,405 --> 00:34:29,365
Speaker 3: I seem to have freedom to make choices?

787
00:34:29,805 --> 00:34:30,245
Speaker 1: What's the end?

788
00:34:30,285 --> 00:34:31,125
Speaker 4: Time is going to be okay?

789
00:34:31,445 --> 00:34:32,245
Speaker 1: All of that stuff.

790
00:34:32,445 --> 00:34:35,845
Speaker 3: Those are the unanswered questions that I get. I understand,

791
00:34:36,925 --> 00:34:39,405
Speaker 3: but I have those same questions. But I know that

792
00:34:39,525 --> 00:34:42,325
Speaker 3: I have enough evidence to make that step and render

793
00:34:42,365 --> 00:34:45,525
Speaker 3: a verdict, make a decision for Jesus. There's more than

794
00:34:45,605 --> 00:34:49,125
Speaker 3: enough evidence for this. And so the question is, are

795
00:34:49,165 --> 00:34:51,725
Speaker 3: you willing to step across your unanswered questions but the

796
00:34:51,845 --> 00:34:56,005
Speaker 3: same way that everyone does for everything else. Do you

797
00:34:56,165 --> 00:34:59,605
Speaker 3: understand how a tumblr lock works? I don't yet I

798
00:34:59,645 --> 00:35:01,885
Speaker 3: put my key in them every day, yes, because I

799
00:35:01,965 --> 00:35:04,245
Speaker 3: don't have to have every question answered to know that

800
00:35:04,325 --> 00:35:06,685
Speaker 3: this is going to turn this lock. So the same

801
00:35:06,805 --> 00:35:08,805
Speaker 3: is true for everything we do. But when it gets

802
00:35:08,805 --> 00:35:11,325
Speaker 3: seems like we get to issues about surrendering our life

803
00:35:11,365 --> 00:35:14,005
Speaker 3: and our will and our moral all of this to God,

804
00:35:14,045 --> 00:35:15,565
Speaker 3: and we're like, oh, no, no, no, no, I have

805
00:35:15,685 --> 00:35:18,805
Speaker 3: to have a perfect case without any questions in my mind.

806
00:35:19,125 --> 00:35:21,125
Speaker 3: Really about what else do you have that kind of

807
00:35:21,165 --> 00:35:21,805
Speaker 3: a perfect case.

808
00:35:21,845 --> 00:35:24,285
Speaker 2: Well, Jesus said, people don't come to the light because

809
00:35:24,325 --> 00:35:26,645
Speaker 2: they don't want their deeds to be expressed, right, So

810
00:35:26,805 --> 00:35:30,685
Speaker 2: sometimes they'll wrap it in a so called intellectual argument

811
00:35:30,805 --> 00:35:33,565
Speaker 2: that will often collapse quickly when you push back with

812
00:35:33,685 --> 00:35:37,525
Speaker 2: some facts. And really the reason is they don't want

813
00:35:37,565 --> 00:35:42,085
Speaker 2: to change, you know, they don't want this thing to

814
00:35:42,165 --> 00:35:45,325
Speaker 2: happen in their life. But you know, the very thing

815
00:35:45,405 --> 00:35:49,005
Speaker 2: they're resisting is a thing that could transform them in

816
00:35:49,165 --> 00:35:51,645
Speaker 2: so many ways. And it's not even logical why a

817
00:35:51,725 --> 00:35:55,045
Speaker 2: person would say notice something like they'll say, I don't

818
00:35:55,045 --> 00:35:58,045
Speaker 2: want to hear what the Bible says, but they won't

819
00:35:58,085 --> 00:36:00,245
Speaker 2: even read it. They won't even just like give a

820
00:36:00,325 --> 00:36:02,445
Speaker 2: cursory glance at it. You know, what do you think

821
00:36:02,485 --> 00:36:02,725
Speaker 2: that is?

822
00:36:02,925 --> 00:36:04,925
Speaker 3: Well, a part of it is it's about I think

823
00:36:04,925 --> 00:36:06,205
Speaker 3: it's all about commitments.

824
00:36:06,245 --> 00:36:07,765
Speaker 4: What are your prior commitments?

825
00:36:07,805 --> 00:36:09,685
Speaker 3: So, for example, the same people always say I could

826
00:36:09,765 --> 00:36:12,765
Speaker 3: never look at something like the Bible as authoritative on

827
00:36:12,845 --> 00:36:16,924
Speaker 3: my life still embrace authoritative views from any other number

828
00:36:16,965 --> 00:36:20,685
Speaker 3: of sources. So none of us are the makers of authority.

829
00:36:20,925 --> 00:36:24,685
Speaker 3: We're trusting somebody, and it's always something other than scripture.

830
00:36:24,925 --> 00:36:26,525
Speaker 3: So I think the ones you realize that, you know,

831
00:36:26,805 --> 00:36:29,885
Speaker 3: everyone stands on the authority of a teaching, it's what

832
00:36:29,965 --> 00:36:33,165
Speaker 3: you learned in college from secular books, You're standing on

833
00:36:33,245 --> 00:36:35,325
Speaker 3: that authority, or it's what you're going to learn here

834
00:36:35,645 --> 00:36:37,565
Speaker 3: from this ancient Now, I will say that I do

835
00:36:37,685 --> 00:36:40,805
Speaker 3: think that people are shifting. I think that maybe my

836
00:36:40,925 --> 00:36:43,325
Speaker 3: age is a boomer. I think that probably we were

837
00:36:43,365 --> 00:36:45,885
Speaker 3: more concerned about is it factually true? And so books

838
00:36:46,085 --> 00:36:48,685
Speaker 3: like you know, evidence that demands a verdict? Those are

839
00:36:48,805 --> 00:36:51,965
Speaker 3: kind of wheelhouse kinds of books. Yeah, Josh McDowell. Those

840
00:36:52,005 --> 00:36:54,165
Speaker 3: kinds of things, I think are like probably where we

841
00:36:54,245 --> 00:36:56,165
Speaker 3: would have been, say, fifty years ago.

842
00:36:56,325 --> 00:36:59,285
Speaker 4: I think this generation really wants to know is it good?

843
00:36:59,965 --> 00:37:01,725
Speaker 4: Forget about it? True is a whole other issue.

844
00:37:01,845 --> 00:37:03,605
Speaker 1: True is I need to know? Is it a good?

845
00:37:03,725 --> 00:37:06,805
Speaker 1: Definition of good? Isn't it definition of true? Also? What

846
00:37:08,365 --> 00:37:08,685
Speaker 1: is good?

847
00:37:08,725 --> 00:37:09,565
Speaker 4: Well, here's what it means?

848
00:37:09,605 --> 00:37:12,085
Speaker 1: It means that's not a long time ago, right? What

849
00:37:12,245 --> 00:37:12,605
Speaker 1: is truth?

850
00:37:12,725 --> 00:37:14,525
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, And so part of it is that I

851
00:37:14,805 --> 00:37:18,005
Speaker 3: think if we are convinced that what culture says is

852
00:37:18,085 --> 00:37:20,405
Speaker 3: what's good, then we're going to become more convinced that

853
00:37:20,445 --> 00:37:23,965
Speaker 3: scripture isn't because it turns out culture is going so

854
00:37:24,125 --> 00:37:26,125
Speaker 3: far astray from the biblical world.

855
00:37:26,205 --> 00:37:30,485
Speaker 2: For instance, the Bible would tell us to marry a

856
00:37:30,565 --> 00:37:34,685
Speaker 2: person of the opposite sext remain in a monogamous relationship

857
00:37:34,805 --> 00:37:38,205
Speaker 2: with them. That's contrary to what they think you should

858
00:37:38,205 --> 00:37:40,165
Speaker 2: be able to do, because maybe you're not even sure

859
00:37:40,525 --> 00:37:43,085
Speaker 2: if you are a man or a woman, and why

860
00:37:43,205 --> 00:37:45,965
Speaker 2: can't people of the same sex marry and fall in

861
00:37:46,005 --> 00:37:46,565
Speaker 2: love and all that?

862
00:37:46,845 --> 00:37:50,085
Speaker 1: So their version of truth would be contrary to what

863
00:37:50,205 --> 00:37:51,365
Speaker 1: the Bible actually says.

864
00:37:51,965 --> 00:37:54,605
Speaker 3: We're watching this show on PBS All Creatures Great and

865
00:37:54,645 --> 00:37:56,045
Speaker 3: Small as Folly that you saw.

866
00:37:56,045 --> 00:37:57,845
Speaker 4: It's a show that's I really like it.

867
00:37:58,005 --> 00:37:59,725
Speaker 3: I like it too, and I thought, wow, isn't it

868
00:37:59,805 --> 00:38:01,845
Speaker 3: interesting that this show made in the UK, which is

869
00:38:01,885 --> 00:38:04,725
Speaker 3: always about fifty years ahead of us in terms of secularism?

870
00:38:04,805 --> 00:38:05,205
Speaker 1: That's true.

871
00:38:05,325 --> 00:38:08,725
Speaker 3: Isn't it interesting that this show would be allowed to

872
00:38:08,805 --> 00:38:14,364
Speaker 3: be produced without importing any current mores into the show.

873
00:38:14,845 --> 00:38:17,285
Speaker 3: It feels like, well, I think they can argue, well, yes,

874
00:38:17,365 --> 00:38:19,645
Speaker 3: but we're writing about We're just writing from the book.

875
00:38:19,925 --> 00:38:23,125
Speaker 3: There's a series of books right from this veterinary area,

876
00:38:23,365 --> 00:38:25,405
Speaker 3: James Harriot, and so there's a series of books and

877
00:38:25,445 --> 00:38:29,364
Speaker 3: it's depicting the England or Scotland or wherever it's set

878
00:38:29,645 --> 00:38:32,245
Speaker 3: in nineteen forties. And this is the way the world

879
00:38:32,445 --> 00:38:34,245
Speaker 3: was in the nineteen forties. So you almost have an

880
00:38:34,285 --> 00:38:37,085
Speaker 3: excuse to go back to something that we've lost.

881
00:38:37,805 --> 00:38:39,245
Speaker 1: That it shows you that.

882
00:38:39,405 --> 00:38:42,645
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you compare sitcoms about families in the nineteen

883
00:38:42,725 --> 00:38:46,005
Speaker 3: fifties with sitcoms about families today, you're not even going.

884
00:38:45,925 --> 00:38:47,165
Speaker 1: To tell that we're on the same planet.

885
00:38:47,365 --> 00:38:49,045
Speaker 2: Well, the ones we grew up with, you know, the

886
00:38:49,205 --> 00:38:52,205
Speaker 2: Donna Reid show, right, father knows best or leave it

887
00:38:52,325 --> 00:38:53,125
Speaker 2: to Beaver Beaver.

888
00:38:53,565 --> 00:38:54,125
Speaker 1: It's so funny.

889
00:38:54,165 --> 00:38:56,805
Speaker 2: I was a kid without a dad, and when Beaver's

890
00:38:56,925 --> 00:39:00,365
Speaker 2: dad would lecture him, I would like listen for like

891
00:39:00,565 --> 00:39:04,365
Speaker 2: information because even though he's an actor, Hugh Beaumont playing

892
00:39:04,405 --> 00:39:08,125
Speaker 2: a father, Yes, you know, I'm going okay, maybe some

893
00:39:08,365 --> 00:39:09,245
Speaker 2: direction here.

894
00:39:09,565 --> 00:39:14,325
Speaker 4: Bother funny what is the what is the Chuck Connor rifleman, rifleman.

895
00:39:14,365 --> 00:39:16,685
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm just gonna we just had this conversation with

896
00:39:16,765 --> 00:39:19,805
Speaker 3: my wife and I I grew up looking at Leave

897
00:39:19,845 --> 00:39:23,685
Speaker 3: de Beaver and the Rifleman as the sources of my

898
00:39:24,365 --> 00:39:26,245
Speaker 3: paternal idea.

899
00:39:25,965 --> 00:39:31,085
Speaker 2: Where they started rewatching the riflemen. And it's a beautiful series.

900
00:39:31,205 --> 00:39:33,205
Speaker 2: Not just about a guy with the rifle that's in there,

901
00:39:33,245 --> 00:39:36,165
Speaker 2: of course, but but it's about a father and a son.

902
00:39:36,285 --> 00:39:39,005
Speaker 2: It's absolutely and he always is giving wisdom In a

903
00:39:39,125 --> 00:39:42,364
Speaker 2: couple of episodes, even quoted scripture yes to his son,

904
00:39:42,445 --> 00:39:43,125
Speaker 2: and I thought.

905
00:39:43,085 --> 00:39:45,445
Speaker 1: Wow, what a different world we live in. Okay, So

906
00:39:45,565 --> 00:39:46,205
Speaker 1: there's the shift.

907
00:39:46,285 --> 00:39:48,045
Speaker 3: And this gun's cool too, right, And you would have

908
00:39:48,045 --> 00:39:51,245
Speaker 3: said in those days growing up, people admired they said, Wow,

909
00:39:51,245 --> 00:39:53,845
Speaker 3: wouldn't it be cool to be that kid being raised

910
00:39:53,885 --> 00:39:56,565
Speaker 3: in that way and that setting in that environment with

911
00:39:56,685 --> 00:39:57,525
Speaker 3: those values.

912
00:39:57,885 --> 00:39:58,725
Speaker 1: Well that's gone.

913
00:39:59,005 --> 00:40:02,805
Speaker 2: But you're talking about young people today. Our generation maybe

914
00:40:02,845 --> 00:40:06,685
Speaker 2: would be more interested in facts. But this generation wants

915
00:40:06,765 --> 00:40:08,645
Speaker 2: to know if it's good, Is it good?

916
00:40:09,605 --> 00:40:10,085
Speaker 1: Is it good?

917
00:40:10,165 --> 00:40:12,445
Speaker 4: And here's the problem. So here's what I would say.

918
00:40:12,485 --> 00:40:14,805
Speaker 3: I think very I think most of us when we

919
00:40:14,885 --> 00:40:17,565
Speaker 3: ask is it good, what we really mean is it good?

920
00:40:17,605 --> 00:40:21,605
Speaker 3: For me, that's true, and we selfishly want one two

921
00:40:21,645 --> 00:40:24,525
Speaker 3: three four five, And so the question is, well, your worldview,

922
00:40:24,605 --> 00:40:27,045
Speaker 3: give me one two three four five. I think part

923
00:40:27,085 --> 00:40:29,845
Speaker 3: of the problem that the project now is going to

924
00:40:29,885 --> 00:40:31,765
Speaker 3: be to help them to see is that one two

925
00:40:31,845 --> 00:40:33,525
Speaker 3: three four five even good itself?

926
00:40:34,165 --> 00:40:38,085
Speaker 4: Why would you want those things? So it's even deeper.

927
00:40:38,725 --> 00:40:42,805
Speaker 3: It's that that Christianity speaks to our desires, not how

928
00:40:42,885 --> 00:40:45,885
Speaker 3: our desires are expressed, it speaks to the desires themselves.

929
00:40:46,645 --> 00:40:48,725
Speaker 3: And this is why I think that for me, my

930
00:40:48,885 --> 00:40:52,485
Speaker 3: writing is tried to do both. Look, if it's not true,

931
00:40:53,285 --> 00:40:54,645
Speaker 3: then how can we even say that?

932
00:40:55,005 --> 00:40:55,965
Speaker 4: Is it something untrue?

933
00:40:56,005 --> 00:40:56,205
Speaker 1: Good?

934
00:40:57,085 --> 00:40:59,005
Speaker 3: I think by nature there is a connection between these

935
00:40:59,045 --> 00:41:00,645
Speaker 3: two things. So I think we have to make a

936
00:41:00,685 --> 00:41:04,165
Speaker 3: case is this evidentially true? Now we can talk about

937
00:41:04,245 --> 00:41:07,005
Speaker 3: what does it speak to say about life, about marriage,

938
00:41:07,005 --> 00:41:08,325
Speaker 3: about identity, about.

939
00:41:09,685 --> 00:41:10,645
Speaker 1: What is life? To begin with?

940
00:41:10,965 --> 00:41:12,205
Speaker 4: What does it say about those things?

941
00:41:12,805 --> 00:41:15,205
Speaker 3: It's going to have to be true first, because the

942
00:41:15,285 --> 00:41:17,885
Speaker 3: idea that we can build our worldview on a fiction

943
00:41:18,285 --> 00:41:21,525
Speaker 3: of our own has consequences, and we've seen those consequences

944
00:41:21,565 --> 00:41:24,045
Speaker 3: in our culture in the last twenty years. Is if

945
00:41:24,085 --> 00:41:27,884
Speaker 3: we can't even agree on what good is right, then

946
00:41:28,005 --> 00:41:30,405
Speaker 3: we kind of let's illustrate.

947
00:41:30,525 --> 00:41:33,125
Speaker 2: Let's say here we have a boomer and here we

948
00:41:33,325 --> 00:41:37,884
Speaker 2: have a gen z young person. Okay, and let's say

949
00:41:38,205 --> 00:41:41,205
Speaker 2: you're going to engage each of them in a conversation.

950
00:41:41,405 --> 00:41:44,925
Speaker 2: Let's say there's separate conversations. How might you start a

951
00:41:45,005 --> 00:41:47,885
Speaker 2: conversation with a boomer and how might you start a

952
00:41:47,965 --> 00:41:50,325
Speaker 2: conversation with someone who's gen z.

953
00:41:50,565 --> 00:41:52,205
Speaker 3: Well, I think it's a both end and not in

954
00:41:52,285 --> 00:41:54,125
Speaker 3: either or so I always think about it and say, hey,

955
00:41:54,245 --> 00:41:55,925
Speaker 3: this is what's great about it is that Christianity is

956
00:41:55,965 --> 00:41:58,245
Speaker 3: both true and good. Is that not only is it

957
00:41:58,365 --> 00:42:01,085
Speaker 3: true and it's demonstrably true, that we can look at

958
00:42:01,085 --> 00:42:03,884
Speaker 3: it as something that actually happened in history. Did Jesus life,

959
00:42:04,205 --> 00:42:07,565
Speaker 3: his death, and resurrection are historical facts? That it turns

960
00:42:07,605 --> 00:42:10,405
Speaker 3: out that the Christian worldview is the source of all

961
00:42:10,525 --> 00:42:14,885
Speaker 3: beauty in art, literature, music, science, education, and world religions

962
00:42:14,965 --> 00:42:18,285
Speaker 3: are dominated by a Christian influence, not because we're the

963
00:42:18,365 --> 00:42:20,205
Speaker 3: most powerful, but because we are.

964
00:42:20,565 --> 00:42:22,925
Speaker 4: It's true and good, and so people.

965
00:42:22,965 --> 00:42:25,045
Speaker 3: Once they see it and they recognize it as true

966
00:42:25,085 --> 00:42:28,085
Speaker 3: and good, then that yes, could it be abused?

967
00:42:28,405 --> 00:42:31,205
Speaker 4: Absolutely? Do you remember that movie The Book of Eli.

968
00:42:31,845 --> 00:42:34,685
Speaker 3: It's yes, it's a great Denzel Washington and he's in

969
00:42:34,765 --> 00:42:38,405
Speaker 3: this movie and he is a guy who is he

970
00:42:38,565 --> 00:42:40,365
Speaker 3: is he's trying to get the last Bible in this

971
00:42:40,485 --> 00:42:42,285
Speaker 3: dystopian future world.

972
00:42:42,565 --> 00:42:44,005
Speaker 4: He has possession of a Bible.

973
00:42:44,285 --> 00:42:47,325
Speaker 3: And the bad guy in the movie wants the Bible

974
00:42:47,445 --> 00:42:49,725
Speaker 3: because he thinks this is I can use this to

975
00:42:49,845 --> 00:42:52,045
Speaker 3: control people, and it's a power.

976
00:42:52,125 --> 00:42:53,565
Speaker 4: I want it because the power that's in that.

977
00:42:53,645 --> 00:42:59,685
Speaker 3: Book, Well, it's because any substantial, substantive worldview can be

978
00:42:59,845 --> 00:43:04,165
Speaker 3: distorted by people and used evily. It's like the same

979
00:43:04,325 --> 00:43:06,605
Speaker 3: the knife you use to cut your bread could also

980
00:43:06,645 --> 00:43:09,125
Speaker 3: be used to kill somebody. Is a knife bad because

981
00:43:09,165 --> 00:43:11,405
Speaker 3: it can be used to kill somebody? So we see that, yes,

982
00:43:11,485 --> 00:43:14,924
Speaker 3: that that Christianity has been distorted by many who would

983
00:43:14,965 --> 00:43:17,925
Speaker 3: call themselves Christians and to do evil. I get that,

984
00:43:18,365 --> 00:43:21,445
Speaker 3: but it is the source of the things that help

985
00:43:21,525 --> 00:43:24,525
Speaker 3: us to flourish. If you just adopted the views that

986
00:43:24,645 --> 00:43:28,045
Speaker 3: are in scripture and you married because of the view

987
00:43:28,085 --> 00:43:31,645
Speaker 3: you hold, you identified yourself based on the view in scripture,

988
00:43:31,925 --> 00:43:34,645
Speaker 3: you actually learned what to worship and value based on

989
00:43:34,725 --> 00:43:35,205
Speaker 3: what is taught.

990
00:43:36,405 --> 00:43:38,405
Speaker 1: My gosh, every aspect.

991
00:43:38,045 --> 00:43:42,085
Speaker 3: Of human flourishing that we can measure in secular studies benefits.

992
00:43:42,205 --> 00:43:45,245
Speaker 3: If you simply do it the way it's described.

993
00:43:46,485 --> 00:43:51,005
Speaker 2: You're more healthy and therevity, everything everything.

994
00:43:51,085 --> 00:43:54,085
Speaker 3: I mean, give you an example of this. Just the idea,

995
00:43:54,405 --> 00:43:56,325
Speaker 3: you know, I've talked about this before. Just the idea

996
00:43:56,445 --> 00:44:00,485
Speaker 3: that humility is this hidden resource for humans that if

997
00:44:00,525 --> 00:44:04,405
Speaker 3: they can just adopt a position of humility, every metric

998
00:44:04,485 --> 00:44:08,884
Speaker 3: of human flourishing and proves from health, longevity, depth of relationships,

999
00:44:08,965 --> 00:44:11,205
Speaker 3: how much money you're going to make, how smart you're

1000
00:44:11,245 --> 00:44:15,565
Speaker 3: going to become. Everything benefits from humility. And only one

1001
00:44:15,845 --> 00:44:19,245
Speaker 3: worldview promotes humil Have you ever thought about that? So,

1002
00:44:19,405 --> 00:44:23,045
Speaker 3: for example, atheism does not promote humility. Why because it's

1003
00:44:23,165 --> 00:44:25,805
Speaker 3: work based. If you have to work to get it.

1004
00:44:25,885 --> 00:44:26,965
Speaker 1: I'm going to do these five things.

1005
00:44:27,005 --> 00:44:28,765
Speaker 4: I'm going to earn an education. I'm gonna do these

1006
00:44:28,805 --> 00:44:30,285
Speaker 4: five things. I'm going to earn a promotion.

1007
00:44:30,685 --> 00:44:35,405
Speaker 3: It's the meritorious nature of atheism that builds pride, not humility,

1008
00:44:35,445 --> 00:44:37,445
Speaker 3: because what happens is I do these five things and

1009
00:44:37,565 --> 00:44:40,445
Speaker 3: he gets the job. Wait a minute, now I'm mad.

1010
00:44:40,605 --> 00:44:43,525
Speaker 3: Why because I think I'm better than that guy. Now,

1011
00:44:43,645 --> 00:44:48,245
Speaker 3: every other theistic worldview is also based on merit. I

1012
00:44:48,405 --> 00:44:50,645
Speaker 3: do these ten things, I'm gonna be right with God.

1013
00:44:50,805 --> 00:44:52,925
Speaker 3: I do these four things, these eight things, I'm going

1014
00:44:53,005 --> 00:44:57,525
Speaker 3: to be right with God. Only one worldview says, no, No,

1015
00:44:57,605 --> 00:44:58,445
Speaker 3: there's nothing you can do.

1016
00:44:59,445 --> 00:45:00,205
Speaker 1: Not about what you do.

1017
00:45:00,765 --> 00:45:02,125
Speaker 4: It's about what's been done for you.

1018
00:45:03,725 --> 00:45:03,925
Speaker 2: I know.

1019
00:45:04,165 --> 00:45:07,005
Speaker 3: Because we are wired for pride, we are wired to

1020
00:45:07,085 --> 00:45:08,405
Speaker 3: compare ourselves to others.

1021
00:45:08,685 --> 00:45:10,765
Speaker 4: We are wired to say, I did the ten things

1022
00:45:11,085 --> 00:45:13,605
Speaker 4: this guy didn't. I deserve more than this guy.

1023
00:45:14,485 --> 00:45:16,285
Speaker 3: Well, only one to you says, not tell you what.

1024
00:45:16,845 --> 00:45:19,205
Speaker 3: Neither one of you deserves any of it. Yeah, but

1025
00:45:19,325 --> 00:45:20,605
Speaker 3: I'm going to give it to you anyway.

1026
00:45:20,725 --> 00:45:22,725
Speaker 2: One thing I pointed out is there's going to be

1027
00:45:22,845 --> 00:45:26,045
Speaker 2: good people in heaven. Excuse me, bad people in heaven

1028
00:45:26,165 --> 00:45:29,165
Speaker 2: and good people in hell. And because we think, oh,

1029
00:45:29,205 --> 00:45:31,045
Speaker 2: heaven is for good people. And if you live a

1030
00:45:31,125 --> 00:45:33,805
Speaker 2: good life and do x amount of good things, you

1031
00:45:33,885 --> 00:45:35,924
Speaker 2: will get to heaven. If you live a bad life,

1032
00:45:36,485 --> 00:45:38,964
Speaker 2: you will end up in hell. Well that's actually not true,

1033
00:45:39,285 --> 00:45:41,765
Speaker 2: because you could live the best life imaginable, but a

1034
00:45:41,845 --> 00:45:46,005
Speaker 2: life without God. And even the Bible says Jesus speaking,

1035
00:45:46,085 --> 00:45:48,485
Speaker 2: many will come to me in that day and saying Lord, Lord,

1036
00:45:48,565 --> 00:45:50,805
Speaker 2: did we not go stock demons in your name and

1037
00:45:50,885 --> 00:45:53,444
Speaker 2: do many wonderful works in your name? And he said,

1038
00:45:53,965 --> 00:45:55,725
Speaker 2: and I will say to them, depart from me.

1039
00:45:55,805 --> 00:45:56,525
Speaker 1: I never knew you.

1040
00:45:56,725 --> 00:46:00,005
Speaker 2: But then bad people in heaven, because if you turn

1041
00:46:00,125 --> 00:46:03,445
Speaker 2: from your sin, even on your deathbed, God would forgive you.

1042
00:46:03,765 --> 00:46:06,565
Speaker 2: Case in point, the thief on the cross, and he

1043
00:46:06,685 --> 00:46:09,165
Speaker 2: probably was worse than a thief because the Romans didn't

1044
00:46:09,245 --> 00:46:14,645
Speaker 2: generally crucify thieves. They crucified murderers. He's probably an insurrectionist.

1045
00:46:14,725 --> 00:46:17,645
Speaker 2: Well we might even call a terrorist against Rome. So

1046
00:46:17,805 --> 00:46:20,884
Speaker 2: he's been crucified for a capital crime. Yet Jesus says

1047
00:46:20,925 --> 00:46:23,525
Speaker 2: to him when he says, Lord, remembering me when you

1048
00:46:23,645 --> 00:46:26,165
Speaker 2: come into your kingdom, Jesus says, today you'll be with

1049
00:46:26,285 --> 00:46:29,605
Speaker 2: me in paradise. Let me do a lightning round with you, okay,

1050
00:46:30,005 --> 00:46:33,285
Speaker 2: and speak in the vernacular like I'm just someone and

1051
00:46:33,405 --> 00:46:36,725
Speaker 2: we're at a Starbucks and we start a conversation, and

1052
00:46:36,805 --> 00:46:39,525
Speaker 2: I'm going to hit you with the things people often say,

1053
00:46:40,085 --> 00:46:43,325
Speaker 2: but I need like kind of like kind of quick

1054
00:46:43,365 --> 00:46:45,805
Speaker 2: ones just so people get a sense. Because they can

1055
00:46:45,845 --> 00:46:49,645
Speaker 2: get your book Cold Case Christianity, and you've written some

1056
00:46:49,725 --> 00:46:50,165
Speaker 2: other books.

1057
00:46:50,165 --> 00:46:52,165
Speaker 1: Tell us the titles of your Okay, so I wrote

1058
00:46:52,165 --> 00:46:53,005
Speaker 1: the Cold case Christians.

1059
00:46:53,005 --> 00:46:54,924
Speaker 3: I wrote a book called God's Crimes, which just looks

1060
00:46:54,965 --> 00:46:57,325
Speaker 3: at the evidence for God, forensic faith, how to develop

1061
00:46:57,405 --> 00:47:00,845
Speaker 3: a evidential faith. Personal interest is about the impact of

1062
00:47:00,925 --> 00:47:01,925
Speaker 3: Jesus on culture and.

1063
00:47:01,925 --> 00:47:05,445
Speaker 1: The truth and the graphic novel, a comic book. I'm excited.

1064
00:47:06,365 --> 00:47:09,765
Speaker 2: We both have a background at art, and so you're

1065
00:47:09,885 --> 00:47:12,085
Speaker 2: going to now take what you're doing and put it

1066
00:47:12,165 --> 00:47:15,565
Speaker 2: in the graphic novel format. But anyway, okay, so they

1067
00:47:15,605 --> 00:47:18,165
Speaker 2: can get your books and get more details. But so

1068
00:47:18,405 --> 00:47:20,445
Speaker 2: you know, you're talking to me about God, and of

1069
00:47:20,525 --> 00:47:23,805
Speaker 2: course I probably will start with this, Wait, hold on,

1070
00:47:24,325 --> 00:47:27,405
Speaker 2: how could a God of love, you know, allow all

1071
00:47:27,445 --> 00:47:31,005
Speaker 2: the horrible things happening in the world, the wars, the injustice,

1072
00:47:31,165 --> 00:47:35,645
Speaker 2: people born with disabilities. If God is so loving and

1073
00:47:35,765 --> 00:47:38,285
Speaker 2: God is so good, why would he allow this?

1074
00:47:38,525 --> 00:47:39,725
Speaker 1: Okay, well, a couple of things.

1075
00:47:40,005 --> 00:47:42,165
Speaker 3: I say that if the answer is more complex, and

1076
00:47:42,405 --> 00:47:45,125
Speaker 3: one is a small short answer. But I will say

1077
00:47:45,245 --> 00:47:46,405
Speaker 3: this is one thing I know for sure as a

1078
00:47:46,485 --> 00:47:49,445
Speaker 3: cold case detective. If you think God is loving, that

1079
00:47:49,525 --> 00:47:51,525
Speaker 3: means he was probably the kind of God who would

1080
00:47:51,565 --> 00:47:54,444
Speaker 3: create a world in which love could exist. A loving

1081
00:47:54,525 --> 00:47:57,125
Speaker 3: God would create a world in which we could experience love.

1082
00:47:57,205 --> 00:47:58,885
Speaker 3: But do you really want that kind of world? That's

1083
00:47:58,885 --> 00:48:03,245
Speaker 3: a dangerous world because it requires a dangerous prerequisite to love.

1084
00:48:03,805 --> 00:48:05,685
Speaker 3: I could take my gun out and say did you

1085
00:48:05,765 --> 00:48:08,965
Speaker 3: love me, Greg, and you'll say yeah, you don't mean it,

1086
00:48:09,725 --> 00:48:11,884
Speaker 3: but you'll say it good. But it's not true love

1087
00:48:11,965 --> 00:48:15,005
Speaker 3: because love can't be coerced. In order to love somebody,

1088
00:48:15,045 --> 00:48:17,685
Speaker 3: you have to have the dangerous prerequisite, which is free agency.

1089
00:48:18,045 --> 00:48:19,805
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, do you want a world in which

1090
00:48:19,845 --> 00:48:20,565
Speaker 3: there is free agency?

1091
00:48:20,605 --> 00:48:21,725
Speaker 4: Because it's logically.

1092
00:48:21,365 --> 00:48:25,364
Speaker 3: Impossible to create a world with free agency where people

1093
00:48:25,405 --> 00:48:28,325
Speaker 3: can love without creating a world with free agency so

1094
00:48:28,405 --> 00:48:32,245
Speaker 3: people can hate. It's a logical impossibility. If you want

1095
00:48:32,365 --> 00:48:35,125
Speaker 3: love in this world, you have to create it with

1096
00:48:35,205 --> 00:48:37,725
Speaker 3: free agency. I can't just program you. See, you'd never

1097
00:48:37,765 --> 00:48:40,725
Speaker 3: do wrong because you wouldn't be free. I could program

1098
00:48:40,805 --> 00:48:42,925
Speaker 3: my phone to say I love you every morning. It

1099
00:48:43,005 --> 00:48:45,845
Speaker 3: doesn't mean it loves me. It's been programmed to say that,

1100
00:48:46,605 --> 00:48:49,364
Speaker 3: so it's not genuine. So I could create humans this way,

1101
00:48:49,445 --> 00:48:52,165
Speaker 3: but it wouldn't be genuine. You want love, that means

1102
00:48:52,205 --> 00:48:54,245
Speaker 3: you have now Here's what a loving god does is

1103
00:48:54,285 --> 00:48:56,885
Speaker 3: he gives you this dangerous thing called free agency.

1104
00:48:56,925 --> 00:48:58,765
Speaker 4: But he tells you how not to abuse it.

1105
00:48:58,845 --> 00:49:01,805
Speaker 3: He gives you a rule book with ten rules, for example,

1106
00:49:01,845 --> 00:49:04,445
Speaker 3: about how not to abuse your free agency. That's what

1107
00:49:04,565 --> 00:49:07,045
Speaker 3: that rule book is. It's a rule book about how

1108
00:49:07,205 --> 00:49:10,685
Speaker 3: to manage your free agency. If you choose to ignore.

1109
00:49:10,365 --> 00:49:12,125
Speaker 4: It, that's not on God.

1110
00:49:12,885 --> 00:49:15,645
Speaker 3: I've given you the dangerous thing you wanted, free agency.

1111
00:49:16,045 --> 00:49:18,685
Speaker 3: I've given you a guideline not to abuse it.

1112
00:49:19,205 --> 00:49:22,085
Speaker 4: If you won't follow the guideline, you're going to see

1113
00:49:22,085 --> 00:49:22,845
Speaker 4: all kinds of crazy.

1114
00:49:23,085 --> 00:49:25,605
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we typically do, and the world as a

1115
00:49:25,685 --> 00:49:29,525
Speaker 3: result is broken along with us. And so it's not

1116
00:49:29,885 --> 00:49:33,725
Speaker 3: just that we have we sit against each other or

1117
00:49:33,805 --> 00:49:36,005
Speaker 3: we make bad choices against each other. Is that we

1118
00:49:36,125 --> 00:49:39,245
Speaker 3: also neglect our environment until we have wildfires that kill

1119
00:49:39,325 --> 00:49:39,765
Speaker 3: half of us.

1120
00:49:39,965 --> 00:49:41,725
Speaker 4: Yeah, we do all kinds of things.

1121
00:49:42,005 --> 00:49:43,045
Speaker 1: That's called California.

1122
00:49:43,125 --> 00:49:44,165
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's called California.

1123
00:49:44,485 --> 00:49:46,325
Speaker 3: So, I mean, this is just the nature of the

1124
00:49:46,365 --> 00:49:48,325
Speaker 3: world we live in. Because you want to be in

1125
00:49:48,365 --> 00:49:50,884
Speaker 3: a world in which you can love and God wants

1126
00:49:50,925 --> 00:49:53,125
Speaker 3: you to love him genuinely, that means he has to

1127
00:49:53,165 --> 00:49:55,805
Speaker 3: also create people who could reject him freely.

1128
00:49:55,925 --> 00:49:58,965
Speaker 2: Also, Yeah, but you mentioned the Bible Jim, and I'm

1129
00:49:59,085 --> 00:50:01,765
Speaker 2: still playing the role of a nunbeliever. I'm not saying

1130
00:50:01,805 --> 00:50:04,525
Speaker 2: this as a pastor or be very alarming. Yeah you

1131
00:50:04,685 --> 00:50:08,085
Speaker 2: mentioned the Bible, Yes, yeah, sure, but the Bible is

1132
00:50:08,125 --> 00:50:12,125
Speaker 2: full of contradictions. It was written by men, and it

1133
00:50:13,005 --> 00:50:15,125
Speaker 2: is not a book that can be trusted.

1134
00:50:15,365 --> 00:50:18,645
Speaker 3: Well, okay, so absolutely, we've got a record of something

1135
00:50:18,685 --> 00:50:21,485
Speaker 3: that's happened in the past that's been recorded by men. Now,

1136
00:50:21,525 --> 00:50:23,685
Speaker 3: even if you rejected the idea that these were divinely

1137
00:50:23,765 --> 00:50:25,325
Speaker 3: inspired men, Okay, fine, let's.

1138
00:50:25,125 --> 00:50:26,605
Speaker 4: Just go forward with that idea.

1139
00:50:26,965 --> 00:50:29,005
Speaker 3: Let's just say it's a record of something that happened

1140
00:50:29,045 --> 00:50:31,205
Speaker 3: in the past that's been recorded by men. That's every

1141
00:50:31,285 --> 00:50:34,685
Speaker 3: case I've ever worked. Can you actually come to a conclusion,

1142
00:50:34,765 --> 00:50:36,965
Speaker 3: a true conclusion about what happened in the past, if

1143
00:50:37,005 --> 00:50:39,525
Speaker 3: it was thirty years ago, if all you have are

1144
00:50:39,605 --> 00:50:42,365
Speaker 3: their records of man, well, yes, if you test those records.

1145
00:50:42,645 --> 00:50:45,965
Speaker 3: I don't believe eyewitnesses. My innate skeptical nature is to

1146
00:50:46,205 --> 00:50:50,805
Speaker 3: trust every eyewitness until I test them. I always say,

1147
00:50:50,845 --> 00:50:53,645
Speaker 3: don't trust an eyewitness, test an eyewitness. But if you

1148
00:50:53,725 --> 00:50:56,245
Speaker 3: test the eyewitness and he passes the test, then you're

1149
00:50:56,245 --> 00:50:58,645
Speaker 3: a fool, not to trust him, so that what was

1150
00:50:58,685 --> 00:51:01,005
Speaker 3: me I needed to know? Are those gospels recording something

1151
00:51:01,085 --> 00:51:03,085
Speaker 3: true about the past? Well, how would you test them?

1152
00:51:03,205 --> 00:51:05,885
Speaker 3: Were they written early, do they have any corroborative evidence,

1153
00:51:06,045 --> 00:51:08,325
Speaker 3: have they changed over time? And do they really written

1154
00:51:08,365 --> 00:51:10,205
Speaker 3: by people who are trying to lie to me for

1155
00:51:10,325 --> 00:51:13,325
Speaker 3: some bias purpose. If they passed the test in those

1156
00:51:13,325 --> 00:51:15,844
Speaker 3: four categories, then you're a fool not to trust them.

1157
00:51:16,445 --> 00:51:19,005
Speaker 1: And that's the same thing that most people the Bible's

1158
00:51:19,005 --> 00:51:23,245
Speaker 1: full of contradictions probably have never read the Bible. Right, Well, listen,

1159
00:51:23,365 --> 00:51:23,645
Speaker 1: you know.

1160
00:51:23,885 --> 00:51:26,125
Speaker 3: That your kids can watch the same party and come

1161
00:51:26,165 --> 00:51:27,325
Speaker 3: home and tell you four different stories.

1162
00:51:27,325 --> 00:51:28,725
Speaker 4: You wouldn't say you're full of contradictions.

1163
00:51:28,765 --> 00:51:29,525
Speaker 1: There was no party.

1164
00:51:29,885 --> 00:51:31,605
Speaker 4: Now, you just say what's going on here? Like, what

1165
00:51:31,685 --> 00:51:32,325
Speaker 4: were you looking at?

1166
00:51:32,405 --> 00:51:34,445
Speaker 1: Jim? What were you looking at? Greg? Two different things?

1167
00:51:34,485 --> 00:51:35,285
Speaker 4: Okay, I get it now.

1168
00:51:35,525 --> 00:51:39,565
Speaker 3: And what we see in scripture are constantly descriptions that, well, okay,

1169
00:51:39,765 --> 00:51:42,325
Speaker 3: if there are two angels, well there is also one angel.

1170
00:51:42,525 --> 00:51:44,364
Speaker 3: So if I only describe one of them because he's

1171
00:51:44,405 --> 00:51:47,085
Speaker 3: the one who's answering my question or addressing me, they'll

1172
00:51:47,125 --> 00:51:48,565
Speaker 3: be surprised I didn't mention the other one.

1173
00:51:48,605 --> 00:51:49,765
Speaker 4: It doesn't mean I'm contradicting.

1174
00:51:50,125 --> 00:51:52,884
Speaker 3: It just means that I'm focused on this one, only one,

1175
00:51:53,005 --> 00:51:56,365
Speaker 3: because he was speaking, So that's the one I record.

1176
00:51:56,525 --> 00:52:00,085
Speaker 3: Now here's the beauty of criminal cases. I get this

1177
00:52:00,205 --> 00:52:03,885
Speaker 3: report from detectives from thirty years ago. The witnesses, if

1178
00:52:03,925 --> 00:52:07,365
Speaker 3: I'm lucky, are still alive, but not always. Sometimes they

1179
00:52:07,405 --> 00:52:10,085
Speaker 3: get the report. Witnesses are dead. Now the guy who

1180
00:52:10,405 --> 00:52:14,005
Speaker 3: recorded it, he's also dead. This is from fifty years ago. Well,

1181
00:52:14,045 --> 00:52:16,885
Speaker 3: now I have a report about a claim made by

1182
00:52:16,885 --> 00:52:20,205
Speaker 3: an eyewitness. The eyewitness is gone, and so is the

1183
00:52:20,285 --> 00:52:24,845
Speaker 3: report writer. That's the Gospels. If you can solve that case,

1184
00:52:25,045 --> 00:52:27,245
Speaker 3: you can solve the Gospels. You just simply have to

1185
00:52:27,245 --> 00:52:30,685
Speaker 3: apply the same approach. Now, in the end, will there

1186
00:52:30,725 --> 00:52:32,725
Speaker 3: be sufficient reason if you want it to be that

1187
00:52:32,925 --> 00:52:35,725
Speaker 3: you could reject them. Yes, it's like every criminal trial.

1188
00:52:36,365 --> 00:52:38,925
Speaker 3: There's always hung juries, and then you just try it

1189
00:52:38,965 --> 00:52:40,485
Speaker 3: again and you might win the second time.

1190
00:52:40,765 --> 00:52:41,485
Speaker 1: Well, what happened here?

1191
00:52:41,525 --> 00:52:43,085
Speaker 3: There was a hung ur the first that I've been

1192
00:52:43,125 --> 00:52:46,605
Speaker 3: two who didn't agree totally get it. Our human nature

1193
00:52:46,685 --> 00:52:49,685
Speaker 3: is that we've been provided that kind of freedom. Now,

1194
00:52:49,885 --> 00:52:51,805
Speaker 3: God's given us more than enough evidence, but he's not

1195
00:52:51,845 --> 00:52:54,245
Speaker 3: going to overwhelm you God as a gentleman, He's going

1196
00:52:54,325 --> 00:52:56,485
Speaker 3: to respect your free agency because then you're going to

1197
00:52:56,565 --> 00:52:59,085
Speaker 3: love him genuinely when you decide to love him.

1198
00:52:59,245 --> 00:53:02,205
Speaker 2: How important is it when, like I've often said, when

1199
00:53:02,245 --> 00:53:06,805
Speaker 2: I'm preaching, it's a monologue, and I engage people with

1200
00:53:06,925 --> 00:53:10,605
Speaker 2: the gospel, it's a dialogue. Take Jesus and the woman

1201
00:53:10,685 --> 00:53:13,685
Speaker 2: at the well. You know, he went back and forth

1202
00:53:13,765 --> 00:53:16,885
Speaker 2: with her, and he listened to her and he responded

1203
00:53:16,965 --> 00:53:19,525
Speaker 2: to her. Really the same as true of Nicodemus as well,

1204
00:53:19,845 --> 00:53:23,405
Speaker 2: and even to some degree with ponchest pilot. So I

1205
00:53:23,525 --> 00:53:26,565
Speaker 2: think that you know, when you're talking with someone about

1206
00:53:26,685 --> 00:53:29,205
Speaker 2: Christ like one on one not you know, I think

1207
00:53:29,285 --> 00:53:33,205
Speaker 2: sometimes Christians will you know, they'll just it's non stop talking.

1208
00:53:33,805 --> 00:53:35,925
Speaker 2: They won't come up for air, they won't give the

1209
00:53:35,965 --> 00:53:39,165
Speaker 2: person an opportunity to respond. Do you think it's important

1210
00:53:39,165 --> 00:53:41,285
Speaker 2: to like, like you asked a few questions of me,

1211
00:53:41,805 --> 00:53:43,765
Speaker 2: would you do that if you were talking to someone

1212
00:53:43,765 --> 00:53:45,365
Speaker 2: and say, well, let me ask you this, I'll let

1213
00:53:45,405 --> 00:53:49,765
Speaker 2: them answer and then then you respond appropriately to what

1214
00:53:49,965 --> 00:53:50,645
Speaker 2: they just said.

1215
00:53:50,845 --> 00:53:52,605
Speaker 3: Well, I think part of it too is like we

1216
00:53:52,645 --> 00:53:54,205
Speaker 3: get a chance, you and I get a chance to

1217
00:53:54,245 --> 00:53:56,805
Speaker 3: talk about the Gospel a lot I get a chance

1218
00:53:56,885 --> 00:53:59,805
Speaker 3: to write about it. I don't feel like every interaction

1219
00:53:59,965 --> 00:54:02,005
Speaker 3: I have with somebody I have to get I've had

1220
00:54:02,125 --> 00:54:05,005
Speaker 3: pent up gospel conversations that all have to get out

1221
00:54:05,045 --> 00:54:07,725
Speaker 3: right now. So I have to overwhelm you with everything

1222
00:54:07,765 --> 00:54:09,925
Speaker 3: I've ever learned about this. And I think as I

1223
00:54:09,925 --> 00:54:11,765
Speaker 3: get older too, there's a part of me that says, Okay,

1224
00:54:11,965 --> 00:54:13,965
Speaker 3: I want to be sensitive to what God is doing

1225
00:54:14,005 --> 00:54:15,805
Speaker 3: in this moment, not just what I could say in

1226
00:54:15,845 --> 00:54:16,205
Speaker 3: the moment.

1227
00:54:16,525 --> 00:54:18,525
Speaker 4: When I was younger, I think it was a little different.

1228
00:54:18,565 --> 00:54:20,005
Speaker 3: I was like, hey, I's had a sense of urgency,

1229
00:54:20,165 --> 00:54:22,765
Speaker 3: as we probably should, right because if the Gospel is

1230
00:54:22,845 --> 00:54:25,325
Speaker 3: a cure for what's killing us and not just an

1231
00:54:25,365 --> 00:54:28,725
Speaker 3: opinion about God, then we should be urgent with cures.

1232
00:54:29,485 --> 00:54:31,685
Speaker 1: And and your wife ever win in argument with you,

1233
00:54:32,245 --> 00:54:34,245
Speaker 1: Oh God, the water.

1234
00:54:34,325 --> 00:54:36,285
Speaker 3: She has I think both of us, you know, kath

1235
00:54:36,405 --> 00:54:38,325
Speaker 3: is probably the same way is that we marry the

1236
00:54:38,365 --> 00:54:40,844
Speaker 3: people who we consider to be like the one person

1237
00:54:40,845 --> 00:54:44,245
Speaker 3: who could tell me that you're flat wrong, Jim, you know,

1238
00:54:44,485 --> 00:54:47,045
Speaker 3: And she's the person who I'm who's the first one

1239
00:54:47,165 --> 00:54:49,005
Speaker 3: I don't know but you. But for me, Susie is

1240
00:54:49,085 --> 00:54:51,405
Speaker 3: the first reader of anything I write, and she's the

1241
00:54:51,485 --> 00:54:52,924
Speaker 3: first one who says this is not good.

1242
00:54:53,885 --> 00:54:54,245
Speaker 1: Oh yeah.

1243
00:54:54,325 --> 00:54:57,205
Speaker 3: When I first wrote Cold Case, I had a completely

1244
00:54:57,245 --> 00:55:00,005
Speaker 3: different approach, and I thought, I'm not gonna who cares

1245
00:55:00,005 --> 00:55:00,925
Speaker 3: about this detective thing.

1246
00:55:00,965 --> 00:55:01,765
Speaker 4: I'm gonna go this way.

1247
00:55:02,005 --> 00:55:03,765
Speaker 3: And I wrote a chapter and I showed it to

1248
00:55:03,765 --> 00:55:08,165
Speaker 3: her and she says, yeah, it's kind of boring. Okay,

1249
00:55:08,365 --> 00:55:10,125
Speaker 3: I'm never going to write a book. I've never found

1250
00:55:10,165 --> 00:55:10,845
Speaker 3: it to be boring. No.

1251
00:55:10,965 --> 00:55:14,045
Speaker 2: I think the way you use your story, you know,

1252
00:55:14,085 --> 00:55:16,405
Speaker 2: because one of the most powerful tools we have in

1253
00:55:16,445 --> 00:55:21,205
Speaker 2: our evangelistic toolbox is our testimony. And everybody is a testimony.

1254
00:55:21,525 --> 00:55:23,765
Speaker 2: Now some are more dramatic than others. I take you

1255
00:55:23,925 --> 00:55:27,685
Speaker 2: and contrast you with Michael Frenzies. His testimony is he

1256
00:55:27,845 --> 00:55:31,325
Speaker 2: was an organized Christ. That's not your testimony.

1257
00:55:32,005 --> 00:55:32,365
Speaker 1: You were.

1258
00:55:32,725 --> 00:55:35,485
Speaker 2: You were an enforcer of the law. But each of

1259
00:55:35,565 --> 00:55:38,285
Speaker 2: you can take your life and use it as a tool.

1260
00:55:38,405 --> 00:55:42,685
Speaker 2: Even the apostle Paul, who is a great orator and communicator,

1261
00:55:42,925 --> 00:55:45,325
Speaker 2: would often start his talks with, Hey, let me tell

1262
00:55:45,325 --> 00:55:47,685
Speaker 2: you what happened to me in the Damascus Road, And

1263
00:55:47,845 --> 00:55:50,405
Speaker 2: you know, because that was his testimony. And I think

1264
00:55:50,485 --> 00:55:53,605
Speaker 2: that each of us find you know our story because

1265
00:55:53,925 --> 00:55:56,925
Speaker 2: you know, not everyone relates to you, not everyone relates

1266
00:55:57,005 --> 00:55:59,765
Speaker 2: to me, but but you're going to find someone out

1267
00:55:59,805 --> 00:56:02,285
Speaker 2: there that will really relate to you. But ultimately, the

1268
00:56:02,365 --> 00:56:05,325
Speaker 2: power is not even in our testimony. It's in the

1269
00:56:05,645 --> 00:56:08,885
Speaker 2: essential Gospel. Here's what I've discovered doing this as an

1270
00:56:08,925 --> 00:56:12,605
Speaker 2: evangelist is there's a place for apologetics. There's a place

1271
00:56:12,645 --> 00:56:16,085
Speaker 2: for answering difficult questions, there's a place for making a

1272
00:56:16,205 --> 00:56:19,525
Speaker 2: logical case for Jesus Christ being the son of God.

1273
00:56:19,885 --> 00:56:23,005
Speaker 2: All of that is important, But ultimately, there is an

1274
00:56:23,085 --> 00:56:27,565
Speaker 2: innate power in this simple message of the Gospel that

1275
00:56:27,725 --> 00:56:31,444
Speaker 2: we must be very careful to not complicate, water down,

1276
00:56:31,845 --> 00:56:34,765
Speaker 2: or change in any way, shape or form. You know,

1277
00:56:34,925 --> 00:56:37,805
Speaker 2: Paul says, I'm not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ,

1278
00:56:37,925 --> 00:56:41,685
Speaker 2: for it is the power of God antssipation. Years ago,

1279
00:56:41,765 --> 00:56:46,445
Speaker 2: I was having lunch with Billy Graham, and I said, Billy,

1280
00:56:46,485 --> 00:56:48,845
Speaker 2: if an older Billy could speak to a younger Billy,

1281
00:56:49,125 --> 00:56:52,525
Speaker 2: what advice would you give yourself? And he said, I

1282
00:56:52,605 --> 00:56:55,885
Speaker 2: would preach more on the Cross and the blood of Christ,

1283
00:56:56,045 --> 00:56:58,605
Speaker 2: because that's where the power is. I've found that to

1284
00:56:58,685 --> 00:56:59,165
Speaker 2: be true.

1285
00:56:59,205 --> 00:57:01,325
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I know, it's so interesting that you say that,

1286
00:57:01,445 --> 00:57:06,645
Speaker 3: because I was listening to Tim keller sermon and he

1287
00:57:06,805 --> 00:57:10,285
Speaker 3: mentions that Dick Lucas, who is an Anglican rector, who's

1288
00:57:11,245 --> 00:57:15,924
Speaker 3: he talks about how when Billy went to Cambridge, maybe

1289
00:57:16,485 --> 00:57:19,125
Speaker 3: the first in nineteen fifties, he had several nights there

1290
00:57:19,165 --> 00:57:21,005
Speaker 3: and the first two nights were flat. He said, But

1291
00:57:21,165 --> 00:57:23,725
Speaker 3: in the third night, in front of all of these intellectuals,

1292
00:57:23,765 --> 00:57:26,165
Speaker 3: and Dick Lucas was in the audience with other bishops

1293
00:57:26,205 --> 00:57:29,805
Speaker 3: from his denomination, Anglican bishops or whatever, and he said,

1294
00:57:30,085 --> 00:57:33,005
Speaker 3: Billy abandoned his plans. He had written all the messages

1295
00:57:33,005 --> 00:57:37,085
Speaker 3: in advance, and he simply focused on the sacrificial system

1296
00:57:37,085 --> 00:57:38,165
Speaker 3: from Genesis.

1297
00:57:37,765 --> 00:57:38,605
Speaker 4: All the way to the cross.

1298
00:57:38,725 --> 00:57:41,245
Speaker 1: It was blood, blood, blood, blood, blood, blood, blood.

1299
00:57:41,645 --> 00:57:44,005
Speaker 3: Four hundred students gave their lives to Christ that night,

1300
00:57:44,445 --> 00:57:46,685
Speaker 3: and is there it is so I think that you're

1301
00:57:46,765 --> 00:57:49,045
Speaker 3: absolutely right. The old Jim Wallace would have said, well,

1302
00:57:49,045 --> 00:57:51,165
Speaker 3: if a church says, Jim, can you come to our

1303
00:57:51,245 --> 00:57:54,085
Speaker 3: church and talk about the case for Christianity, I would

1304
00:57:54,125 --> 00:57:55,965
Speaker 3: say sure, and I would go, and I would make

1305
00:57:56,005 --> 00:57:58,045
Speaker 3: this four point case and I'd show you how these

1306
00:57:58,125 --> 00:58:00,565
Speaker 3: conditions are met. Blah blah blah, and that would be

1307
00:58:00,605 --> 00:58:03,765
Speaker 3: the end of it. I won't do that anymore. If

1308
00:58:03,805 --> 00:58:07,405
Speaker 3: we're going to do that, remove hopefully barriers for people

1309
00:58:07,445 --> 00:58:09,645
Speaker 3: who are in the audience who maybe who would or are.

1310
00:58:09,525 --> 00:58:10,245
Speaker 4: There with their spouse.

1311
00:58:10,565 --> 00:58:12,445
Speaker 3: They've been coming with their spouse and it's always been

1312
00:58:12,525 --> 00:58:15,325
Speaker 3: want for them because they are not interested and they've

1313
00:58:15,365 --> 00:58:18,605
Speaker 3: had these intellectual barriers. Fine, if we don't preach the

1314
00:58:18,645 --> 00:58:22,245
Speaker 3: gospel at the end of that case, we have missed

1315
00:58:22,245 --> 00:58:24,165
Speaker 3: the opportunity because there's no power in the case.

1316
00:58:24,405 --> 00:58:25,685
Speaker 4: The power is in the gospel.

1317
00:58:25,805 --> 00:58:28,645
Speaker 3: The case just made the Gospel available for people who

1318
00:58:28,725 --> 00:58:31,845
Speaker 3: have pridefully built these walls. That was me. I had

1319
00:58:31,845 --> 00:58:34,125
Speaker 3: any number of objections that would keep me being God,

1320
00:58:34,725 --> 00:58:36,845
Speaker 3: keep me in charge of what my moral order was,

1321
00:58:36,885 --> 00:58:38,245
Speaker 3: whether I was being successful or not.

1322
00:58:38,405 --> 00:58:39,725
Speaker 4: I was the judge of all those things.

1323
00:58:40,205 --> 00:58:42,445
Speaker 3: I needed something to knock those down so I could

1324
00:58:42,485 --> 00:58:44,765
Speaker 3: realize who I really was. And you know when I

1325
00:58:44,845 --> 00:58:47,925
Speaker 3: finally that happened for me, I was convinced the gospels

1326
00:58:47,925 --> 00:58:50,045
Speaker 3: were now accurate, and I thought it's time to read

1327
00:58:50,045 --> 00:58:51,925
Speaker 3: the letters of Paul. And I had read the Letters

1328
00:58:51,965 --> 00:58:53,645
Speaker 3: of Paul, but I mean really read them, and I

1329
00:58:53,725 --> 00:58:56,845
Speaker 3: remember reading through Romans and First Corinthians and reading about

1330
00:58:56,845 --> 00:58:59,565
Speaker 3: the natural and spiritual man and realizing.

1331
00:59:00,005 --> 00:59:01,525
Speaker 1: That, wow, that's me.

1332
00:59:02,525 --> 00:59:05,445
Speaker 4: I would never have been humble enough.

1333
00:59:05,925 --> 00:59:07,525
Speaker 1: The nature man cannot understand that.

1334
00:59:07,605 --> 00:59:10,165
Speaker 3: That's right God, And I realized that I was. Now

1335
00:59:10,285 --> 00:59:12,885
Speaker 3: I realized I was a sinner in need of a savior.

1336
00:59:14,005 --> 00:59:15,925
Speaker 3: But now I knew there was a savior because I

1337
00:59:15,965 --> 00:59:17,525
Speaker 3: had done the work in the gospels to know that

1338
00:59:17,605 --> 00:59:19,725
Speaker 3: this dude is who he said he was. So so

1339
00:59:19,885 --> 00:59:22,365
Speaker 3: now I was able to kind of connect those two dots.

1340
00:59:22,645 --> 00:59:24,645
Speaker 3: But I think if you'd have started in the letters

1341
00:59:24,685 --> 00:59:26,325
Speaker 3: of Paul from me, I would have said, yeah, I

1342
00:59:26,365 --> 00:59:27,005
Speaker 3: saw a fiction.

1343
00:59:27,485 --> 00:59:28,925
Speaker 1: Even if this was true, this is fiction.

1344
00:59:29,885 --> 00:59:31,885
Speaker 3: So even if I am broken and I do need

1345
00:59:31,965 --> 00:59:35,485
Speaker 3: to be fixed, I do need forgiveness, there's no this

1346
00:59:35,645 --> 00:59:36,005
Speaker 3: is fiction.

1347
00:59:37,045 --> 00:59:38,845
Speaker 4: Once I knew this wasn't fiction, I realized that I

1348
00:59:38,885 --> 00:59:41,285
Speaker 4: could meet this need now with a real savior.

1349
00:59:41,805 --> 00:59:44,245
Speaker 2: That so, now, if you were to go back to

1350
00:59:44,325 --> 00:59:46,605
Speaker 2: your days as a detective, if you were going to

1351
00:59:46,765 --> 00:59:49,725
Speaker 2: solve the case, because you would often work with partners, right, yeah,

1352
00:59:49,965 --> 00:59:51,525
Speaker 2: if you were going to solve a case with a

1353
00:59:51,605 --> 00:59:53,885
Speaker 2: biblical character helping you, who would you.

1354
00:59:54,005 --> 00:59:56,005
Speaker 4: Choose Oh, that's a great No one was ever asked

1355
00:59:56,005 --> 00:59:56,565
Speaker 4: me that question.

1356
00:59:57,245 --> 00:59:58,965
Speaker 3: Well, of course you want Solomon probably first of all,

1357
00:59:59,005 --> 01:00:00,365
Speaker 3: because he's the wisest man.

1358
01:00:00,845 --> 01:00:04,685
Speaker 1: You know, you want to give me wisdom. Of course

1359
01:00:05,085 --> 01:00:06,245
Speaker 1: that's true. God it carts.

1360
01:00:06,645 --> 01:00:09,125
Speaker 3: But you said to local characters, and so I immediately thought, well,

1361
01:00:09,165 --> 01:00:10,565
Speaker 3: that's God. So yeah, we're going to have to have

1362
01:00:10,605 --> 01:00:13,925
Speaker 3: somebody who's biblical character. So I thought, if I happened

1363
01:00:13,925 --> 01:00:15,805
Speaker 3: to be, I'm going to tell you something on the side,

1364
01:00:16,605 --> 01:00:18,085
Speaker 3: want to give us something on the side to here though,

1365
01:00:18,125 --> 01:00:20,445
Speaker 3: because you know you've talked in the past, and I'm

1366
01:00:20,565 --> 01:00:23,885
Speaker 3: actually I tend I come every Tuesday night. I come

1367
01:00:24,245 --> 01:00:27,845
Speaker 3: here to law enforcement first responders, a small group here

1368
01:00:27,885 --> 01:00:30,445
Speaker 3: at Harvest, and I listened to all of your I

1369
01:00:30,565 --> 01:00:32,845
Speaker 3: travel on weekends this week and I'm in Dallas, for example,

1370
01:00:32,885 --> 01:00:36,925
Speaker 3: out of church, but I listened to your messages because

1371
01:00:37,085 --> 01:00:39,325
Speaker 3: this is you know, we are here in southern California

1372
01:00:39,405 --> 01:00:40,885
Speaker 3: with you, and I love it.

1373
01:00:41,245 --> 01:00:44,885
Speaker 4: And you mentioned one time, it was not that.

1374
01:00:44,965 --> 01:00:48,005
Speaker 3: Long ago, there was a sermon on biblical reliability, and

1375
01:00:48,165 --> 01:00:50,925
Speaker 3: you mentioned how you have several Bibles and often you

1376
01:00:50,925 --> 01:00:53,325
Speaker 3: would write in the margins. There's even pictures hanging up

1377
01:00:53,365 --> 01:00:56,325
Speaker 3: downstairs in the church. Here about the margins where you

1378
01:00:56,445 --> 01:00:59,125
Speaker 3: make notes, I do that too. By crazy, I mean

1379
01:00:59,325 --> 01:01:01,445
Speaker 3: that's me too. I'm always looking at a little investigative things.

1380
01:01:01,485 --> 01:01:03,205
Speaker 3: You're always talking about. Well, maybe it's a five point

1381
01:01:03,285 --> 01:01:04,965
Speaker 3: sermon in there or a three point sermon in there.

1382
01:01:05,005 --> 01:01:06,885
Speaker 3: In your notes, I'm looking at it in terms of, oh,

1383
01:01:06,925 --> 01:01:09,005
Speaker 3: look at that. That word would not be there if

1384
01:01:09,045 --> 01:01:11,605
Speaker 3: this was not historically true. So I'm looking at and

1385
01:01:11,685 --> 01:01:15,045
Speaker 3: trying to pick that stuff apart. But one of the

1386
01:01:15,125 --> 01:01:16,845
Speaker 3: people in our small group mentioned that she had just

1387
01:01:16,845 --> 01:01:19,525
Speaker 3: come across her mother's Bible. So now what I did

1388
01:01:19,565 --> 01:01:21,445
Speaker 3: is I went out and I have three granddaughters, three

1389
01:01:21,525 --> 01:01:24,405
Speaker 3: three grand kids, two two granddaughters and one grandson. And

1390
01:01:24,845 --> 01:01:27,725
Speaker 3: they're very young. One the oldest is too, so these

1391
01:01:27,725 --> 01:01:30,285
Speaker 3: are young kids. But I bought a Bible that has

1392
01:01:30,365 --> 01:01:32,765
Speaker 3: got a journal bible. It's got a wide, wide margin

1393
01:01:32,845 --> 01:01:34,925
Speaker 3: with very faint lines. You can keep your letters straight,

1394
01:01:35,005 --> 01:01:37,365
Speaker 3: you know. And so now what I'm doing is I'm

1395
01:01:37,485 --> 01:01:40,365
Speaker 3: in scripture writing my notes, not.

1396
01:01:40,485 --> 01:01:43,085
Speaker 4: For me anymore, but to that grandchild.

1397
01:01:43,285 --> 01:01:43,685
Speaker 1: Oh wow.

1398
01:01:43,965 --> 01:01:45,885
Speaker 3: And it's probably a ten year project, because you know,

1399
01:01:45,925 --> 01:01:47,605
Speaker 3: if you think about having to go through every page.

1400
01:01:47,725 --> 01:01:49,045
Speaker 1: And you're very artistic too.

1401
01:01:49,125 --> 01:01:51,285
Speaker 2: You mentioned your an artist, but I've seen your actual

1402
01:01:51,325 --> 01:01:55,445
Speaker 2: illustrations in some of your books, and you know it's funny,

1403
01:01:55,445 --> 01:01:57,565
Speaker 2: you'll know what I'm talking about. But in those old Bibles,

1404
01:01:57,605 --> 01:02:00,565
Speaker 2: I used a rapidiograph pas yes, which is generally used

1405
01:02:00,645 --> 01:02:04,645
Speaker 2: for art. So it's very very fine point yes. Now

1406
01:02:05,085 --> 01:02:06,485
Speaker 2: I read things when I.

1407
01:02:06,565 --> 01:02:09,325
Speaker 3: Write things, I know, so I'm trying to do before

1408
01:02:09,325 --> 01:02:11,605
Speaker 3: I can't do it anymore. But a lot of it is, yeah,

1409
01:02:11,925 --> 01:02:14,685
Speaker 3: I'm using these you know, these acid based or non

1410
01:02:14,725 --> 01:02:16,645
Speaker 3: acid based. They don't they don't bleed through the paper,

1411
01:02:17,325 --> 01:02:20,085
Speaker 3: and they're point zer zero five, so they're tiny, tiny

1412
01:02:20,205 --> 01:02:22,205
Speaker 3: fine lines and I'm just trying to get my notes

1413
01:02:22,245 --> 01:02:24,765
Speaker 3: in there. But that all came because you had to

1414
01:02:24,805 --> 01:02:27,205
Speaker 3: preach that message about the same time that this lady

1415
01:02:27,285 --> 01:02:29,285
Speaker 3: was showing us her Bible from her mom, where she

1416
01:02:29,365 --> 01:02:30,605
Speaker 3: had notes about her own kids.

1417
01:02:30,645 --> 01:02:32,605
Speaker 1: And I thought, I'm going to do this.

1418
01:02:32,685 --> 01:02:34,525
Speaker 3: So now this has become a ten year project. And

1419
01:02:34,565 --> 01:02:36,925
Speaker 3: I mentioned it because I'm in the Old Testament. I'm

1420
01:02:36,965 --> 01:02:39,565
Speaker 3: in First Samuel with my grandson James, and I'm in

1421
01:02:39,685 --> 01:02:41,565
Speaker 3: First Samuel and I'm just looking at all the Old

1422
01:02:41,645 --> 01:02:44,645
Speaker 3: Testament so you're not ere encountering these Old Testament characters.

1423
01:02:45,005 --> 01:02:47,725
Speaker 1: But even like, but isn't it interesting that people.

1424
01:02:47,565 --> 01:02:52,325
Speaker 3: Like Solomon and Samuel and Eli like one generation in

1425
01:02:52,405 --> 01:02:55,925
Speaker 3: their kids are sideways. I know, and you're thinking to yourself, wow.

1426
01:02:56,725 --> 01:02:59,045
Speaker 3: So I think at this stage, for me, a lot

1427
01:02:59,085 --> 01:03:01,045
Speaker 3: of it is is I want books like Cold Case

1428
01:03:01,085 --> 01:03:03,325
Speaker 3: to be the kind of book and I've written them

1429
01:03:03,365 --> 01:03:05,405
Speaker 3: all from a crime perspective because I think that's what

1430
01:03:05,565 --> 01:03:08,245
Speaker 3: gets people to go, oh, yeah, that makes sense now,

1431
01:03:08,285 --> 01:03:10,365
Speaker 3: because that would make sense in our criminal trial, so

1432
01:03:10,445 --> 01:03:12,885
Speaker 3: that should make sense against the Gospel. And I think

1433
01:03:12,925 --> 01:03:14,605
Speaker 3: it helps people to kind of grab the idea.

1434
01:03:14,645 --> 01:03:15,485
Speaker 4: And I want my kids to.

1435
01:03:15,605 --> 01:03:21,765
Speaker 3: But but if you notice this, like my grandkids, my

1436
01:03:21,925 --> 01:03:25,205
Speaker 3: kids have not read all my books. Like my kids,

1437
01:03:25,285 --> 01:03:27,725
Speaker 3: the value I have for my children is not in

1438
01:03:27,805 --> 01:03:30,685
Speaker 3: the books I wrote to strangers. The value I have

1439
01:03:30,805 --> 01:03:34,045
Speaker 3: in my grandchildren is the time I spent with them.

1440
01:03:34,965 --> 01:03:37,405
Speaker 3: And I'm thinking why, as you're just what do they

1441
01:03:37,485 --> 01:03:37,765
Speaker 3: call you?

1442
01:03:38,165 --> 01:03:38,565
Speaker 4: Opah?

1443
01:03:38,845 --> 01:03:40,685
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're just so pod to that. That's right.

1444
01:03:40,805 --> 01:03:43,245
Speaker 2: And you know later when they get older, they'll figure

1445
01:03:43,285 --> 01:03:44,965
Speaker 2: out your Jay Warner Wallace.

1446
01:03:45,605 --> 01:03:49,405
Speaker 1: But and that's it. And but those are such.

1447
01:03:49,285 --> 01:03:53,085
Speaker 2: Important impressions because I'll remember he had time for us.

1448
01:03:53,405 --> 01:03:57,205
Speaker 2: He took us to ice cream, you know. He always

1449
01:03:57,445 --> 01:04:00,725
Speaker 2: told us stories, you know, and it's very important to

1450
01:04:00,805 --> 01:04:02,005
Speaker 2: be a grand no doubt.

1451
01:04:02,805 --> 01:04:06,125
Speaker 3: And I think the problem is is jd Vance. He

1452
01:04:06,205 --> 01:04:07,525
Speaker 3: was just talking about the order of loves and the

1453
01:04:07,645 --> 01:04:10,205
Speaker 3: order of charity. I think as men, we are so

1454
01:04:10,405 --> 01:04:14,685
Speaker 3: consumed with our how we appear to this outside ring

1455
01:04:14,965 --> 01:04:19,445
Speaker 3: of strangers, because we're wired with our testosterone to conquer

1456
01:04:19,525 --> 01:04:22,045
Speaker 3: the next mountain, to make us, to protect our families,

1457
01:04:22,085 --> 01:04:24,165
Speaker 3: to provide for our families. So we're going to do

1458
01:04:24,245 --> 01:04:26,445
Speaker 3: all that stuff out there, and we hope we've done

1459
01:04:26,565 --> 01:04:29,885
Speaker 3: enough at the inside ring of our family where I

1460
01:04:30,005 --> 01:04:32,485
Speaker 3: need to flip the identity and say, okay, I need

1461
01:04:32,885 --> 01:04:34,885
Speaker 3: I hope I've done enough in the outside ring to

1462
01:04:35,005 --> 01:04:37,885
Speaker 3: help people examine Christianity to see it's true.

1463
01:04:37,885 --> 01:04:39,525
Speaker 1: But have I done enough at the inside ring?

1464
01:04:40,325 --> 01:04:43,765
Speaker 3: Because I've been concerned for so many years with the

1465
01:04:44,285 --> 01:04:46,925
Speaker 3: I think I've got the order of affections wrong, and

1466
01:04:47,205 --> 01:04:49,085
Speaker 3: so I have to really kind of rethink that. And

1467
01:04:49,165 --> 01:04:51,725
Speaker 3: that national discussion that's kind of been circulating in the

1468
01:04:51,805 --> 01:04:54,365
Speaker 3: last couple of weeks has helped me to rethink it

1469
01:04:54,445 --> 01:04:56,805
Speaker 3: in my own life, because the reality of it is

1470
01:04:56,965 --> 01:04:59,845
Speaker 3: is that, yeah, if you know that you're people that

1471
01:04:59,925 --> 01:05:01,645
Speaker 3: you love the most, who are closest to you are

1472
01:05:01,765 --> 01:05:05,085
Speaker 3: not even familiar with the work that you thought was legacy,

1473
01:05:06,165 --> 01:05:08,405
Speaker 3: it wasn't legacy. It turns out these were the people

1474
01:05:08,445 --> 01:05:09,965
Speaker 3: who are legacy, and I have been ignoring.

1475
01:05:10,005 --> 01:05:12,125
Speaker 1: That's true. You know. George H. W.

1476
01:05:12,365 --> 01:05:15,245
Speaker 2: Bush, the first President, Bush was once asked you know

1477
01:05:15,325 --> 01:05:19,125
Speaker 2: what his greatest accomplishment in life was. He could have said, well,

1478
01:05:19,165 --> 01:05:22,445
Speaker 2: I was the ambassador to China. I think you may

1479
01:05:22,485 --> 01:05:25,965
Speaker 2: have directed the CIA. The course was vice president and

1480
01:05:26,085 --> 01:05:29,325
Speaker 2: he was president, and he said, the greatest accomplishment of

1481
01:05:29,405 --> 01:05:31,925
Speaker 2: my life is my children still come home to see me.

1482
01:05:32,725 --> 01:05:35,245
Speaker 2: And I like that because that's a man who understood

1483
01:05:35,325 --> 01:05:36,365
Speaker 2: the value of family.

1484
01:05:36,525 --> 01:05:36,885
Speaker 4: That's right.

1485
01:05:37,285 --> 01:05:39,645
Speaker 2: And you know, I love how it says of David,

1486
01:05:39,725 --> 01:05:42,405
Speaker 2: he's served the Lord in his generation. It's all we

1487
01:05:42,525 --> 01:05:44,645
Speaker 2: can do, you know, and then we pass it on.

1488
01:05:45,165 --> 01:05:47,645
Speaker 2: We pass it on to the next generation. The Christian

1489
01:05:47,725 --> 01:05:50,405
Speaker 2: life is like a relay race. We carry the baton

1490
01:05:50,525 --> 01:05:53,205
Speaker 2: for a time, and then when we're done, we hand

1491
01:05:53,245 --> 01:05:56,085
Speaker 2: that baton on to the next generation and they carry it,

1492
01:05:56,205 --> 01:06:00,205
Speaker 2: hopefully do the same and so you know, but I

1493
01:06:00,405 --> 01:06:02,885
Speaker 2: just want to commend you for the incredible work you're

1494
01:06:02,925 --> 01:06:07,125
Speaker 2: doing and the fact that you have had to people

1495
01:06:07,205 --> 01:06:09,485
Speaker 2: on the outside. But it's great that you're thinking about

1496
01:06:09,485 --> 01:06:13,885
Speaker 2: your family. A last question, Jim, So, let's say someone's

1497
01:06:13,925 --> 01:06:16,885
Speaker 2: listening to this right now, and maybe they're an atheist

1498
01:06:17,085 --> 01:06:21,925
Speaker 2: or the very least a skeptic, And what would you

1499
01:06:22,085 --> 01:06:24,245
Speaker 2: if you're sitting over a cup of coffee with them

1500
01:06:24,445 --> 01:06:28,245
Speaker 2: and they say said something like, I want to know

1501
01:06:28,445 --> 01:06:32,045
Speaker 2: what's true, but it's so hard for me to intellectually

1502
01:06:32,165 --> 01:06:34,805
Speaker 2: accept it. It's like you were saying of yourself when

1503
01:06:34,845 --> 01:06:39,085
Speaker 2: you were younger. You know, you read that the natural

1504
01:06:39,165 --> 01:06:41,245
Speaker 2: man receives not the things of God. You were trying

1505
01:06:41,285 --> 01:06:43,085
Speaker 2: to wrap your mind around it. What would you say

1506
01:06:43,445 --> 01:06:47,285
Speaker 2: to a person who's grappling with this but wants to believe.

1507
01:06:47,885 --> 01:06:50,325
Speaker 3: Isn't it interesting that we think that, you know, if

1508
01:06:50,405 --> 01:06:53,485
Speaker 3: I have to understand more in order to believe, that's

1509
01:06:53,565 --> 01:06:54,165
Speaker 3: kind of a claim.

1510
01:06:54,245 --> 01:06:55,165
Speaker 1: I need to know more.

1511
01:06:55,645 --> 01:06:57,325
Speaker 3: But it turns out, if there is a god of

1512
01:06:57,365 --> 01:06:59,845
Speaker 3: the universe, it has the power to create everything in

1513
01:06:59,925 --> 01:07:03,925
Speaker 3: the universe from nothing. That kind of power is scary.

1514
01:07:03,965 --> 01:07:06,245
Speaker 3: If you think about it. That means he'd had to

1515
01:07:06,325 --> 01:07:08,885
Speaker 3: have infinite wisdom along with the infinite power. Because he

1516
01:07:08,925 --> 01:07:13,365
Speaker 3: has he have power to eliminate all misconception. All that's power,

1517
01:07:14,005 --> 01:07:16,805
Speaker 3: And that means that you're trying with your finite mind

1518
01:07:17,725 --> 01:07:19,805
Speaker 3: to be able to conceptualize a god of the unit.

1519
01:07:19,885 --> 01:07:21,685
Speaker 3: If there is a God of the universe, you should

1520
01:07:21,685 --> 01:07:25,045
Speaker 3: be really ready to accept the idea that there's going

1521
01:07:25,085 --> 01:07:27,125
Speaker 3: to be a lot of mystery. There's going to be

1522
01:07:27,165 --> 01:07:28,845
Speaker 3: a lot of stuff you can't figure out if there

1523
01:07:28,885 --> 01:07:31,125
Speaker 3: really is a god we're talking about. Otherwise that thing

1524
01:07:31,165 --> 01:07:33,725
Speaker 3: you created in your mind is too small. It's not

1525
01:07:33,805 --> 01:07:35,605
Speaker 3: the God of the universe. It's something you think I

1526
01:07:35,645 --> 01:07:38,685
Speaker 3: can actually dissect and know how he thinks and understand

1527
01:07:38,725 --> 01:07:41,085
Speaker 3: how he thinks and how he operates in the world. Well,

1528
01:07:41,125 --> 01:07:43,885
Speaker 3: if there is a god like this, how he operates

1529
01:07:43,925 --> 01:07:45,925
Speaker 3: in the world, being timeless and knowing that what that

1530
01:07:46,045 --> 01:07:49,245
Speaker 3: domino is going to do fifteen generations from now, knowing

1531
01:07:49,325 --> 01:07:51,885
Speaker 3: how this is going to affect another series of thousands

1532
01:07:51,965 --> 01:07:55,245
Speaker 3: of people, you're not going to know that. So part

1533
01:07:55,285 --> 01:07:57,205
Speaker 3: of it is that we, even as atheists, we have

1534
01:07:57,285 --> 01:07:59,725
Speaker 3: constructed an idea of God that is completely in our

1535
01:07:59,765 --> 01:08:02,645
Speaker 3: own minds that is so small that we think unless

1536
01:08:02,685 --> 01:08:04,685
Speaker 3: I can understand, And what I've learned is a Christian

1537
01:08:05,685 --> 01:08:08,445
Speaker 3: is that if obedience is important to me as a parent,

1538
01:08:08,765 --> 01:08:10,845
Speaker 3: when I ask my kids to be obedient because I

1539
01:08:10,965 --> 01:08:13,445
Speaker 3: know better in that situation when you're three, I need

1540
01:08:13,525 --> 01:08:15,725
Speaker 3: you to obey because there's a danger involved here.

1541
01:08:16,045 --> 01:08:18,045
Speaker 1: If there's a God who's separated.

1542
01:08:17,644 --> 01:08:20,005
Speaker 3: From us in terms of intellect, in terms of capacity,

1543
01:08:20,365 --> 01:08:22,325
Speaker 3: it's a far bigger separation than me and my three

1544
01:08:22,405 --> 01:08:24,844
Speaker 3: year old. I'm asking my three year old to trust

1545
01:08:24,924 --> 01:08:27,365
Speaker 3: and obey because I know better. If there's a God

1546
01:08:27,564 --> 01:08:29,525
Speaker 3: like that who's asking you to trust and obey. If

1547
01:08:29,564 --> 01:08:32,285
Speaker 3: my three year old said, I'll obey you, but first

1548
01:08:32,365 --> 01:08:34,485
Speaker 3: I need to know every reason why you're asking me

1549
01:08:34,604 --> 01:08:37,245
Speaker 3: to do this, that's not true obedience. It turns out

1550
01:08:37,285 --> 01:08:42,004
Speaker 3: true obedience is when you obey not knowing the wise yet. Well,

1551
01:08:42,085 --> 01:08:44,844
Speaker 3: am I willing to obey this not knowing the wise yet?

1552
01:08:45,365 --> 01:08:46,285
Speaker 4: That's really the question.

1553
01:08:46,485 --> 01:08:47,804
Speaker 3: And I think that if there is a God, I

1554
01:08:47,804 --> 01:08:49,245
Speaker 3: should expect them to be a lot of stuff I

1555
01:08:49,285 --> 01:08:51,804
Speaker 3: don't understand, and I can't use that as an excuse.

1556
01:08:51,844 --> 01:08:53,205
Speaker 4: We then there can't be a god. No, no, no, no, No,

1557
01:08:53,604 --> 01:08:54,884
Speaker 4: if there is a God, this.

1558
01:08:55,005 --> 01:08:57,405
Speaker 3: Is exactly what you would expect that this is going

1559
01:08:57,445 --> 01:08:59,644
Speaker 3: to be something that you're going to struggle with. It's

1560
01:08:59,684 --> 01:09:02,804
Speaker 3: actually an evidence for God, not an evidence against God.

1561
01:09:03,405 --> 01:09:04,764
Speaker 3: So I think that part of it for me is

1562
01:09:04,804 --> 01:09:07,405
Speaker 3: realizing that if there is a God, I am, by comparison,

1563
01:09:07,644 --> 01:09:10,405
Speaker 3: so limited in my understanding that I'm going to have

1564
01:09:10,485 --> 01:09:13,964
Speaker 3: to get comfortable with that limitation. And then of course

1565
01:09:14,125 --> 01:09:17,325
Speaker 3: there's enough been revealed to me. And again, look, there's

1566
01:09:17,325 --> 01:09:18,964
Speaker 3: a lot of views that people have about God.

1567
01:09:19,045 --> 01:09:22,285
Speaker 1: Test them. I welcome my kids to test those things.

1568
01:09:22,325 --> 01:09:24,644
Speaker 3: I didn't become a Christians office thirty five, and I

1569
01:09:24,724 --> 01:09:26,804
Speaker 3: can begiming a Christian because I tested the claims.

1570
01:09:27,285 --> 01:09:28,964
Speaker 4: But I'm also at least fair.

1571
01:09:29,884 --> 01:09:31,604
Speaker 3: I mean, as far as criminal cases, I've had a

1572
01:09:31,684 --> 01:09:33,125
Speaker 3: lot of cases I wish were better, but I have

1573
01:09:33,205 --> 01:09:35,485
Speaker 3: took them to trial. I still took them to trial.

1574
01:09:36,285 --> 01:09:38,724
Speaker 3: They were good enough to win the case. It was

1575
01:09:38,804 --> 01:09:40,884
Speaker 3: clear to me he was the guy. Dude, I wish

1576
01:09:40,924 --> 01:09:43,564
Speaker 3: I had a better case. Yeah, So if you feel like, yeah,

1577
01:09:43,564 --> 01:09:46,044
Speaker 3: I wish I had a better case than this, there's

1578
01:09:46,085 --> 01:09:49,445
Speaker 3: still enough, more than enough. Yes, I can still take

1579
01:09:49,485 --> 01:09:50,204
Speaker 3: that case to trial.

1580
01:09:50,485 --> 01:09:51,245
Speaker 1: And you can too.

1581
01:09:51,644 --> 01:09:53,644
Speaker 4: It's just being comfortable with what you don't know.

1582
01:09:54,525 --> 01:09:57,245
Speaker 1: Thanks so much. Great to have you, and God bless you.

1583
01:09:57,365 --> 01:09:57,924
Speaker 4: Thanks for having me.

1584
01:09:58,085 --> 01:10:01,245
Speaker 2: I appreciate it here everybody, Thanks for listening to my podcast.

1585
01:10:01,365 --> 01:10:03,684
Speaker 2: Before you go, I wanted to let you know about

1586
01:10:03,724 --> 01:10:06,365
Speaker 2: the important work we're doing here at home Harvest. You know,

1587
01:10:06,445 --> 01:10:09,164
Speaker 2: we've had the same goal these last fifty years, which

1588
01:10:09,245 --> 01:10:12,325
Speaker 2: is simply this. We want to know God and we

1589
01:10:12,445 --> 01:10:15,125
Speaker 2: want to make Him known, and we do that in

1590
01:10:15,205 --> 01:10:21,405
Speaker 2: a lot of ways documentary films, animation, radio, television, large

1591
01:10:21,405 --> 01:10:24,764
Speaker 2: scale evangelistic events and more. If you want to be

1592
01:10:24,844 --> 01:10:27,525
Speaker 2: a part of what we're doing to fulfill the great commission,

1593
01:10:28,045 --> 01:10:31,764
Speaker 2: you can support us with whatever you can give at

1594
01:10:31,924 --> 01:10:36,445
Speaker 2: Harvest dot org slash donate again, that's Harvest dot org

1595
01:10:36,884 --> 01:10:38,525
Speaker 2: slash donate and thanks so much