1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Welcome to Thanking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer, 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: and I'm glad you're here. In this special series, we're 3 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: stepping back into one of the most pivotal times in 4 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: Christian history, the German Reformation. This was a time when 5 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: the Gospel was being rediscovered, the Church was being challenged, 6 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: and the course of Western civilization was being reshaped with 7 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: ripples that still reach into our lives today. And to 8 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: guide us through this journey, I'm joined by a true expert, 9 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: someone who doesn't just know the Reformation from books, but 10 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: from the cobblestone streets and cathedral halls where it actually happened, 11 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: Doctor Greg Quiggle. Greg is a Reformation historian and the 12 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: owner and operator of Kotelis Travel, a company that runs 13 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: what they call tours for ten, intimate travel experiences designed 14 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: for people who want something deeper than a typical tour. 15 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: They offer a three to one guest to guide ratio, 16 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: and these trips give you consistent access to guides who've 17 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: been on location multiple times, who know not only the history, 18 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: but also where to find the best able strudal and 19 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: other German delicacies along the way. You can learn more 20 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: about Greg and Kotellus at kotellistravelservice dot com. And if 21 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: this series piques your interest, Greg actually has a German 22 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: Reformation trip coming up this May, and last I heard, 23 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: there are still a few seats available. In this series, 24 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: Greg is going to help us explore the people, places, 25 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,479 Speaker 1: and theological stakes of the Reformation as well as helping 26 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: us understand why it still matters for Christians today. So 27 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,199 Speaker 1: let's get started. Greg, Welcome to the podcast man. 28 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 2: Thank you, it's great to be here. 29 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, so today we're going to be kind of talking 30 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: a little bit pre Reformation context and what context is 31 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 1: it that the Reformation emerges from. What's the world like 32 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: at this point in Germany? So maybe we'll start there, 33 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: what's going on in society in Germany. Paint us a 34 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: picture of the utopian moment of Germany at this time 35 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: that the horrible reformers eventually destroy and break apart. Now 36 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: and that's not really I kind of know what's coming. 37 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: So yeah, paint the picture. 38 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 2: Let me back it up five hundred years just to 39 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 2: give a bit of context here. So most people in 40 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 2: the West tend to think about Christianity as either Protestant 41 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 2: or Roman Catholic, but if we go back in the 42 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 2: early Church, you're aware there's one church, and frankly, there's 43 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 2: one church throughout the world until ten fifty four, and 44 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 2: in ten fifty four the church divides into two, the 45 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 2: Western or Latin or Catholic Church and the Eastern or 46 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 2: Greek or Orthodox Church. So Russia and these other places 47 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 2: have been in the news more recently, and you see 48 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 2: religion over there that's Orthodox Christianity, that is not Roman Catholicism. 49 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 2: That's an entirely different deal for another time and another lesson. 50 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 2: But what you need to understand is what we're talking 51 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 2: about is happening in the Western Church. So this is 52 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 2: a split, a second split in the Western or Catholic 53 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 2: Church that takes place in the fifteenth and sixteenth century. 54 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 2: And so one of the first things I need people 55 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 2: to understand is we tend to hear the word Reformation SUN, 56 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 2: but it's actually reformationuns. There are many of them. So 57 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 2: we're focusing in this set of podcasts on what happened 58 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 2: in Germany. So that's going to be luther and Lutheranism, 59 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 2: and that's going to eventually spread into modern day Scandinavia, 60 00:03:53,000 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 2: so Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway. Those are still predominantly Lutheran places, 61 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 2: but there was also separate movements in Switzerland. For example, 62 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 2: in the city of Zurich. Among German speaking Swiss, there's 63 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 2: a guy named Zwingli who has a movement going. Most 64 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 2: people have heard of John Calvin. That's French speaking people. 65 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 2: He's in the French part of Switzerland. You've heard of 66 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:30,039 Speaker 2: the Reformed churches. The Reformed Churches trace the roots to 67 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 2: both Swingley and Calvin. Then you have a separate Reformation 68 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 2: in England. You mentioned at the beginning about you know, 69 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 2: I do a trip to England and that's the story 70 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 2: of Henry the Eighth and his six wives and divorces, 71 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,159 Speaker 2: and that produces what we did. They called the Church 72 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 2: of England, the Anglican or Episcopal Church. That's totally separate 73 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 2: from what we're going to talk about in this podcast. 74 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 2: Then you get a group called the Radicals, and these 75 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 2: produce Mennonites, Amish, some Brethren. Most of them start in 76 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 2: Switzerland or around the German border. And again we're not 77 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 2: touching on those people today in this set of broadcasts. 78 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 2: So we're really talking about something that's happening in what 79 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 2: was called the Holy Roman Empire, which is modern day Germany. 80 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 2: And why does this happen? Why is the Western Church 81 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 2: suddenly reforming. Well, there's a couple reasons. Number one is 82 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 2: it's been around now for fifteen hundred years and it's 83 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 2: become bureaucratic and bloated, and you know how these things go. 84 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 2: Church laws become a mess. There's a high degree of corruption. 85 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 2: Most of us know the stories about bad popes or 86 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 2: you know, illegitimate children, or buying and selling church offices 87 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 2: called simony. There's this going on. We'll learn more about 88 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:20,679 Speaker 2: that and other future podcasts. A lot of ministers aren't 89 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 2: even in it's called absenteeism. In fact, at one point 90 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 2: it was guest and only one one in fourteen parishes 91 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 2: had their priests and residence in Germany, so they weren't 92 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 2: even there. They were collecting a salary and weren't there. 93 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 2: So there's all kinds of stuff going on. But underneath it, 94 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 2: and we'll spend a whole podcast on this, but underneath this, 95 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 2: there's this real question of theology. Because those who are 96 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 2: going to become what we call Protestants are going to 97 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 2: say all of this other stuff, all this bad stuff 98 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 2: I've talked about, is the product of bad doctrine? The 99 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 2: church lost its way theologically, And those who are going 100 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 2: to remain or become what we call Roman Catholic are 101 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 2: going to say, no, the doctrine is pretty much fine. 102 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 2: We just got corrupt. So it's not fair to say 103 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 2: that Protestantism started because of corruption in the church, because 104 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 2: the Roman Church is going to address the corruption too. 105 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 2: Everybody agrees the church had become corrupt. The question is 106 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 2: is the corruption the problem itself or a symptom of 107 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 2: a deeper theological problem. And like I said, in a 108 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 2: future podcast, we'll talk about the basic theological problems. But 109 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 2: in addition to that, I want to frame out what 110 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 2: the world was like. So first off, we talk about cities. Well, 111 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: what we call the city and what they call the 112 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 2: city were quite different. So, for example, the population in Geneva, 113 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 2: I mentioned Geneva, it's about twenty five thousand people. That's 114 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 2: a city. London is sixty thousand. I mean that Florence 115 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 2: is fifty thousand. Naples is forty thousand something a lot, 116 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 2: so we're talking about numbers one hundred thousand for Naples. 117 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 2: Paris is a big dog. It's about two hundred thousand. 118 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 2: You know, these are the size of just big suburbs now, 119 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 2: and so most of Europe was rural and peasant, and 120 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 2: they lived hand to mouth, so death was extraordinarily present 121 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 2: in day to day life. So I've just got some 122 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 2: statistics here to help you understand this. In Central Europe, 123 00:08:55,440 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 2: life expectancy was between thirty and forty years. That's average. Charge. 124 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 2: So let's talk about infinite child mortality rates. Somewhere around 125 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 2: thirty percent of newborns died before their first year, first birthday, 126 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 2: About forty five percent died before they reached adulthood. So 127 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 2: look at it this way. One out of every two 128 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 2: children never made it to adulthood roughly. Yeah, and you know, 129 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 2: just try to imagine if those of us that have 130 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 2: had children half of them never made it to adulthood. 131 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 2: The emotional toll would just be stunning. Now, let's add 132 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 2: on to that things like the Black Death. So you've 133 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 2: heard of the plague, the Black Death. Now, most of 134 00:09:55,360 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 2: this predates Reformation, but it goes through during the reference 135 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 2: nation two. So the worst years for this between let's 136 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 2: say thirteen fifty and fourteen twenty in Germany, roughly forty 137 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 2: four zero percent of the population died. Provence in France 138 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 2: fifty percent five zero Tuscany in Italy seventy seven zero 139 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 2: percent died when Zwingli was in Zurich at one point 140 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 2: the plague went through. Twenty five percent died when he 141 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 2: was pastor imagine pasting. You know we talk about COVID. 142 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 2: Imagine twenty five percent going through. It's stunning. And so 143 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 2: on top of this, you've got famine et cetera, et cetera, 144 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 2: et cetera. 145 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 1: So right, you're not living the easy life if you survive. 146 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: This is a difficult, hard life, marked by death constantly. 147 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 2: And so what I've tried to get people to understand 148 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 2: is the cumulative effect on the medieval mind is something 149 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 2: we just cannot grasp. But what it does do is 150 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:32,199 Speaker 2: it intensifies their concern about death. They are obsessed with death. 151 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 2: In fact, the cathedral in barn has a stained glass window. 152 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 2: If you can imagine this, and it has in the window, 153 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 2: I believe it's fifty fifty different portrayals of how you 154 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 2: can die. Can you imagine going to church, He'll and 155 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 2: here's this big window in your church. You could die 156 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 2: this way, you could die this way. You could die 157 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 2: this way, you could die this way. So two things. 158 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 2: Number One, they are more committed to the life to 159 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 2: come than this life. What's going to happen when I die? 160 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 2: What's going to happen when I die? What's going to 161 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 2: happen when I die? Number two, God is perpetually angry. 162 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 2: There is overwhelming evidence that God is constantly angry. And 163 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 2: the evidence is clear. Half my kids are dead, and 164 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 2: the disease is coming through town. And when it comes 165 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 2: through town, who causes disease? They know the stories from 166 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 2: the Old Testament. Why do people die? They die because 167 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 2: they're singing against God. So God must be angry. And 168 00:12:51,040 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 2: this is all so in light of that, I've described 169 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 2: the tradition of the church, who is supposed to be 170 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 2: able to provide comfort and answers in this kind of trauma. 171 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 2: The church who is failing the church? And so this 172 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 2: is why you get so much emphasis in extreme religious behaviors, pilgrimages, 173 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 2: people beating themselves, starving themselves, anything they can do to 174 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 2: manipulate God, because remember the priests, isn't there Yeah, and 175 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 2: so h. 176 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 1: He is there is any prescribing some of these things anyway, 177 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: I mean. 178 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 2: But what these things are on the books. But the 179 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:04,439 Speaker 2: people that are driving these things are the peasants because 180 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 2: they're desperate. Right, So if I don't if I go 181 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 2: see the Relic, I get time off purgatory. If I 182 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 2: go in a pilgrimage, I get time off purgatory. I 183 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 2: don't need a priest to do that. So if I 184 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 2: haven't gotten the masks, I can at least go on 185 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 2: a I can go to the Relic. I can buy 186 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 2: an indulgence. We'll talk more about that later. You can 187 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 2: see why this is all. Purgatory is going to become 188 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 2: really important because I've got to figure out I've got 189 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 2: to do something to a keep God from killing me 190 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 2: because he's mad, and B I've got to do something 191 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 2: to make sure I spend eternity in heaven instead of hell. 192 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 2: You walk into church and you got the last Judgment 193 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 2: carved over the door and lie these places. So you 194 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 2: know this is not like we go to church and 195 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 2: there's somebody smiling with a big smile at face. Button 196 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 2: you know, Jesus loves you, and so do we know this? 197 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 2: This is God is angry at you. He's damning you 198 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 2: to hell. And if you don't straighten up and fly, 199 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 2: you know, so you have to take your brain and 200 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 2: you have to do a one eighty with it, because 201 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 2: the way we see life and the way they see life, 202 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 2: it's just radically different. And as in aside, one of 203 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 2: the despicable byproducts of this is anti Semitism. So lots 204 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 2: of times when the play comes through, if God isn't 205 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 2: responsible for it, then guess who is? The Jews? So 206 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 2: you get slaughter of Jews? Are they poisoned the well? 207 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 2: And then Jews will be in Germany and Central Europe 208 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 2: there's horrible. Well you know what's wrong with these people? 209 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 2: Why didn't they read the Bible? Well, that's a good question. 210 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 2: Why didn't they read the Bible? Literacy rate in Germany 211 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 2: in fifteen hundred only twenty percent of the population could read, 212 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 2: could not read. 213 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: When even at that point would there have been a 214 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: Bible they could read. 215 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 2: That's the second point. The printing press has been around 216 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 2: by that point, so there would have been some around, 217 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 2: and there were a few early German translations. Were they 218 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 2: very good? No? Were they very prominent? No? So that's 219 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 2: the other thing. Well, why didn't these people just read 220 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 2: the Bible? Well, the Catholic Church was keeping them from it. Well, 221 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 2: you don't have to worry about keeping it from them 222 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 2: if they can't read it. Yeah, so there is some 223 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 2: sense of yes, they didn't want lay people grabbing the 224 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,360 Speaker 2: Bible and deciding for themselves what it meant. And we'll 225 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 2: talk more about that than later broadcasts or podcast but 226 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 2: but the fact of the matter is the vast majority, 227 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 2: eighty percent of the population couldn't read. 228 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it didn't matter whether they had or. 229 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 2: Not, didn't matter whether they had it or not. Yeah. 230 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: And the reality is, until you up the literatary rates, 231 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 1: there's you're kind of stuck. You're you're left with your 232 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: own imagination in this context and working on whatever limited 233 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: understanding you may have had. You can't really check yourself 234 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: based you know, like we would go back to God's 235 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 1: word and look and say, oh, I'm probably off about that, 236 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: you know, what have you? They don't even have that recourse, right. 237 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 2: They have stained glass windows, so they know the stories, 238 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 2: They know the stories of the Bible, and you know 239 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 2: those stories of the saints. Yeah, some extent, the lasses 240 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 2: are the masses in Latin. They can't understand that the 241 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 2: sermons are horrible, So these are sheep without a shepherd, 242 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 2: and they're desperate. 243 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: Do the this. Yeah, it's probably a too blunt a question, 244 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:17,120 Speaker 1: so I'll let you nuance it. But you know, looking 245 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: forward to what we're going to talk about with Luther, 246 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 1: obviously I see him identifying a theological problem within the church. 247 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: But for most of the peasants, they're they're dissatisfaction with this. 248 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 1: Probably isn't theological. It's probably more pragmatic. In other words, 249 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: none of this is working, and the Church just seems 250 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: to take more from me and give me less back. 251 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 2: Exactly. 252 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 1: Is that okay? 253 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 2: Exactly? And you know, one of the other things is 254 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 2: clergy were not subject to civil law, so they can 255 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 2: get away with murder. Literally. I mean, it's like it's 256 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 2: a mess. Yeah. Roman Catholics and Protestants are going to 257 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 2: say it's a mess, because frankly, there is such a 258 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 2: thing as a Roman Catholic reformation. A Catholic reformation, they 259 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 2: do clean house, they do get rid of the corruption. 260 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 2: They understand. Nobody is arguing that the church was in 261 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 2: good shape in the fourteenth, fifteenth and sixteenth century was 262 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 2: a mess. The question is how much of this was 263 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 2: bad theology. 264 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: And that's where you have guys who are trained. Luther 265 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 1: was a trained person. He understood the doctrinal elements. He 266 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: could read the you know, and study these various things. 267 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 1: He understood canon law and all that kind of good stuff. 268 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: And so what he's identifying is these theological or doctrinal 269 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: kernels within the Catholic Church that are creating the context 270 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: for corruption. And if these aren't changed, he has very 271 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: little hope that the Church can actually reform. 272 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 2: Right, And his question is the question of every peasant 273 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 2: in Germany, how can I stand before a holy God? 274 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 2: And he comes to a conclusion that number one, he 275 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 2: can stand before a holy God on the basis of 276 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 2: faith alone, and number two, he can have a degree 277 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 2: of certainty about what happens to him before he dies. 278 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 2: And both of those are going to be revolutionary ideas. 279 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 2: And those are things, I mean, imagine living your life 280 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 2: knowing that you can die at any moment, which is 281 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 2: true of all of us. We just don't think about it, right, 282 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 2: And this overwhelming sense that God is perpetually angry at me, 283 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 2: and no way to have any degree of certainty about 284 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 2: where I stand with God, just I don't really know, 285 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 2: you know, I do what the priest kind of says. 286 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 2: And I hope this kind of works. And I'm you know, 287 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 2: I bought an indulgence and I'm going to the relic 288 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 2: and maybe I'll go on a pilgrimage. My crops are okay, 289 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 2: And and this guy comes along and says, no, all 290 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 2: you have to do is believe that Jesus died for 291 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 2: your sins on the cross. When you believe that Jesus died, 292 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 2: you're forgiven and you can know that you're okay with God. 293 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 2: Just keep looking to Jesus, Just keep focused on Jesus. 294 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 2: Just keep believing that Jesus on the Cross is there 295 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 2: for you. Keep going to him, keep repenting of your sins, 296 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 2: keep throwing yourself at his mercy. Is long as you 297 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 2: are believing in Him, you're okay. And you can know, well, 298 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 2: this is just absolutely utterly stunning. Yeah, and it's gonna 299 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 2: and it's gonna. You know, the craft side to this 300 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 2: is it's gonna undercut a lot of money making opportunities here, 301 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 2: do you So? 302 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,920 Speaker 1: One of the things I've always kind of wondered about 303 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 1: as you moved from the Catholic side to the Protestant side, 304 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 1: you tend to lose purgatory. Yes, that that happened with Luther. 305 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 2: Among others. 306 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I mean, but I mean he I guess 307 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: my question is, and did Luth? Was that Luther's innovation 308 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: but Luthor didn't carry that with him at all, Like 309 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: that was just dawn. Purgatory is a doctrine? Was kind 310 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 1: of like, nope, we're done well. 311 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 2: Luther's theology evolves, all, I don't want to tell you you. 312 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: Know what was necessarily, but he's. 313 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 2: He is working through these things, but it is logically 314 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 2: no longer necessary if you believe in justification by faith alone. 315 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 2: That is what Luther is saying is when you put 316 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 2: your faith in what Jesus did on the cross, there 317 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 2: is this magnificent exchange, and the exchange is your sin 318 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 2: goes to Jesus and Jesus' righteousness becomes yours. Theologians call 319 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 2: this imputed righteousness. I like Luther's term much better. He 320 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 2: calls it alien righteousness. That is, it's in you but 321 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 2: not yours, so that you are right before God, not 322 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 2: because of who you are, but because of who Jesus is, 323 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 2: and by faith you are united with Jesus, so that 324 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 2: when God, the Father looks at you, he sees Jesus righteousness, 325 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 2: and he says acceptable. There is therefore now no condemnation 326 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 2: to those who are in Christ Jesus, and you are 327 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 2: in Christ Jesus by faith alone. 328 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think it's just interesting to think 329 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: through all the things that hinged on purgatory, right, And 330 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,360 Speaker 1: we'll talk about a lot of them throughout the rest 331 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: of the series, but just to kind of intro it, 332 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: it's like, the indulgences hang on purgatory. 333 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 2: Yep. 334 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: Many of the ascetic practices like these beatings and that 335 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: kind of stuff, they hinge on purgatory, like I want 336 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: to get time off for good behavior. 337 00:24:59,040 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 2: Right. 338 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 1: So it's just fascinating to think about the revolution and 339 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 1: thought that people would have had to go through to 340 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: move from this context that you've described really well, like this, 341 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: it's just death and just sort of horrible living conditions. 342 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: You're looking to the church for answers. The church has 343 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 1: no real answers. You're doing these pilgrimages, you're spending more money, 344 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 1: you're buying, you know, you're doing all this other stuff. 345 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: And then Luther comes along and says, yeah, really, you 346 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: don't have to do any of that stuff anymore. Here's 347 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,479 Speaker 1: what it looks like. I mean that, you know, as 348 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: a release valve to all that pressure was probably revolutionary. 349 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,959 Speaker 1: But also working that through the entire aspect of theology 350 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: had to have been a job. Oh yeah, yeah, it 351 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: just from a practical perspective. You know, why would we 352 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: do any of the sacraments anymore if purgatory isn't real, 353 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 1: Like you have to come up with a whole different 354 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,239 Speaker 1: sort of system for that. And I'm sure he had 355 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: resources are drawn, I know, the huss Yeah sort of 356 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: predated Luther's I mean, it wasn't like this the only 357 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: time that's ever come up. And then obviously you have 358 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 1: materials prior to some of this near term context that 359 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: you go back and draw on. 360 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 2: But uh, he's going to go back to August and 361 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,919 Speaker 2: he's gonna hut. You don't get much justification by faith 362 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 2: from hust but you do get things like communion in 363 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 2: both kinds, that is, both the cup and the bread, 364 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 2: to the play people, variety of sorts of things. But yeah, 365 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 2: the stunning thing that Luther is, the question that Luther 366 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 2: is answering is you can know now what happens to 367 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 2: me when I die? Well, you have hope. No, no, 368 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 2: you have certainty. What's a certainty from the shed blood 369 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 2: of Christ. Christ died for my sins, according to the Scripture, 370 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 2: and I believe that He died for me. And so 371 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 2: the sacraments no longer are the means by which God 372 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 2: turns me into a righteous person. The sacraments testify to 373 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 2: the truth of the Bible, help me understand the Bible 374 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 2: and become objects of faith in that sense. So when 375 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 2: I receive the communion, I receive the promise of Jesus 376 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 2: in the form of bread and wine. So Jesus says 377 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,360 Speaker 2: to me in bread what he says to me in 378 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 2: the book, this is my body broken for you. And 379 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 2: then the question is the same question when I read 380 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 2: the book, do I believe that? 381 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: Yeah? 382 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,479 Speaker 2: If I believe it, then it saves me. If I don't, 383 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 2: it damns me. 384 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. 385 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 2: Well I believe if you make the Bible personal freaking 386 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 2: is the Bible general? 387 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean belief. I've sort of come around 388 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 1: to this. There's a body of scholarship that talks about 389 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: belief in terms of loyalty. Now, I don't think that 390 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: what that means is that every time you read faith 391 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: you should read loyalty or faith, you should read allegiance. 392 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: But I do think that that's a nuance within the language. 393 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: It's not just cognitive assent. Yes, right, it's not just 394 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: an I believe that statement. There's a wonderful illustration. John 395 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: Verbaiki does some interesting work on what he calls participatory knowing, 396 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: and he talks about a shaman who watches wolves, and 397 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: he says, in watching the wolves, the shaman is not 398 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: developing beliefs about the wolves. The shaman is enacting what 399 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: the wolf is doing. He's getting a bodily sense of 400 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: how the wolf moves, what its habits are right, and 401 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: this helps him move and think like the wolf, so 402 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: that when he's hunting the wolf, he has a better 403 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: shot at getting the wolf. And you know that's paraphrastic, 404 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: but the general idea on this is when I think 405 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: about faith, I'm thinking about it in those terms. When 406 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: we're participating in some of these sacraments, we're not just 407 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:32,959 Speaker 1: going through motions or trying to assent to something in 408 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: a cognitive strictly cognitive sense. We're actually participating. We're enacting it, 409 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: and in enacting it we learn to imitate Christ and 410 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: demonstrate that we are faithful to him, we believe he 411 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: is Lord, and we submit to him as Lord. All 412 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: of that sort of put into that same kind of context. Yeah, 413 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: So I don't know, just that clarification seems sometimes I 414 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: think we get when I think of the Reformation justification 415 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: by faith, it can get a little bit when we 416 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: talk about it. Sometimes you get a little bit of anemic, right, 417 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: And I don't think at all that that's where Luther 418 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: is pushing or you are, just to clarify for the audience, 419 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: it's not a you know, it's not like as simple 420 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: as I believe that chair will hold me, you know 421 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 1: that we often get that sort of conversation. It's like, No, 422 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: it's more like, you know, I'm gonna I'm going to 423 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: hang from a rope over the Grand Canyon and I 424 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: trust that it's going to hold me. 425 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 2: Well, you're you know. I mean, I drive this from Calvin, 426 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 2: but I think it catches Luther. Calvin talks about something 427 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 2: called told depravity, and people think, oh, that means you're 428 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 2: as bad as you can possibly be. No, total is 429 00:30:55,280 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 2: a statement of quality, not quantity. That is affects the 430 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 2: entirety of your being. There is no part of you 431 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 2: unaffected by sin might have varying degrees. So for example, 432 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 2: my eyes are awful, are awful because of original sin. Frankly, 433 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 2: your eyes might be less brave than mine, but nonetheless 434 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 2: there's still not nobody's eyes are absolutely utterly pristine. So 435 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 2: all we're talking about is degree, not quality. I think 436 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 2: Calvin applies the same principle to faith. I think he 437 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 2: says faith is total, that is, it involves the totality 438 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 2: of your being. So God doesn't save you on the 439 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 2: basis of the quantity of faith you have. He saves 440 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 2: you on the basis of the quality of your faith. 441 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 2: That is, it's the entirety of your being, not just 442 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 2: your mind, not just your will, not just your emotions. 443 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 2: The entirety of your being is inclined. So that and 444 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 2: here's how Luther, I think Bridge is it you talked 445 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 2: about us participating. Yeah, for Luther, Christ is participating in 446 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 2: the bread too. It's a double participation. He is somehow 447 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 2: mystically in the bread. Then you are somehow mystically participating 448 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 2: with sharing, in a sharing, so that there is union 449 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 2: with Christ. And it's this union because you see if 450 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 2: when Paul says there is therefore nomenal commendation of those 451 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 2: who are in Christ Jesus. The end doesn't imply just 452 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 2: your intellect. It implies the entirety of your being. And 453 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 2: that's why I think faith is total, not just partial. 454 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 2: Now I don't know exactly what all that means, but 455 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 2: I do think the Bible, and you know this, it's 456 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 2: the old word heart. That's a holistic term. 457 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: Right, It's not just it's not referring simply to our emotions. 458 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: When we read in Deuteronomy six' five love the loygric 459 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 1: oud with all your, heart with all your, soul with 460 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: all your. Strength, normally the WAY i would parse Those 461 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: hebrew words out is heart is you, know sort of your, 462 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: will your, desire all your volitional, capability your, soul which 463 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 1: is actually The hebrew word and fish often occasionally used for. 464 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: Corpse it refers to your whole, being not just some 465 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: sort of inanimate soul that we can't. See and then 466 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,719 Speaker 1: strength in The hebrew, context it's actually ode is The hebrew. 467 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: Word it's the very and very, Good so you know 468 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: it's Your the WAY i like to think of, it 469 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: it's all your, oomph all your, muchness and it probably 470 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: refers to everything you can, muster not just how much 471 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: you can, bench but all of your resources piled in 472 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: right into. This that's all your. Strength and so that 473 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: CAPTURES i, think you, know again from An Old testament, 474 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 1: perspective that SOMETIMES i think this is a little easier 475 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,280 Speaker 1: to see than when we get into The New, testament 476 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: that there is this, holistic whole self giving oneself over 477 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: to The, lord and that this is what faithfulness looks. 478 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: LIKE i like that idea of. QUALITY i hadn't heard 479 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: that about total gravity And, calvin that's really. Helpful AND 480 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 1: i think as long as we keep that in mind 481 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: as we go, forward that this isn't about a particular, 482 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 1: assent but that justification by faith can almost be read 483 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 1: as justification by faith and justification by faithfulness. Simultaneously we 484 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:51,879 Speaker 1: just don't have the word for. 485 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 2: It, YEAH i, MEAN i try to be helpful occasionally 486 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 2: just for the share thrill of it. All AND i 487 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,320 Speaker 2: think the guy that that picks this up maybe even 488 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 2: better Is Jonathan edwards in HIS treati someun religious. Affections 489 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 2: what does he mean by? Affections that's, right that's the 490 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 2: whole point of this. Thing so, YEAH i MEAN i 491 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 2: that's my read Of. Calvin calvin doesn't say that, exactly 492 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 2: but THAT'S i think that's What calvin is, Saying so. 493 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: It TRACKS i think for what from WHAT i understand 494 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 1: the scripture and the doctrine of again justification by. FAITH 495 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: i think we're we're in an interesting, Setting, greg where you, 496 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,400 Speaker 1: know all this new scholarship is coming out with regard to, 497 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: that and you have an old guard who's, saying, no 498 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 1: we haven't gotten the you, know the doctrine of justification 499 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,319 Speaker 1: wrong for the last fifty, years and the new guys 500 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 1: are kind of, saying, well we're not necessarily saying you 501 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 1: get it. Wrong we're just saying that this is an 502 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 1: aspect that's been Under that's the WAY i read. It 503 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,360 Speaker 1: at least some of them are probably saying they're. Wrong 504 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: BUT i do think that we're sort of in this 505 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 1: moment where if we're not, careful our doctrine will become too, 506 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:11,720 Speaker 1: reified too, stiff and we'll lose the ability to Allow 507 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 1: god's word to reform some of our. Ideas in the 508 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: same way that we See luther battling against The Catholic 509 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: church to do the. Same you, know, well. 510 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 2: This is precisely why you, know and we'll talk about 511 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 2: this in future. Podcasts when you do the ninety five, 512 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 2: Thesis luther, says The christian's repentance for The christian is 513 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 2: a way of. Life, yeah not an. 514 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 1: Event, yeah it has to be an ongoing, thing. 515 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:41,800 Speaker 2: Right, well this is. 516 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: Helpful this gives us a good context for The, reformation 517 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 1: gives us a decent enough picture of the bleakness of 518 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,319 Speaker 1: this moment and how The church's corruption combined with just 519 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,240 Speaker 1: the difficulties of daily, life the tragedy of daily, life 520 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:02,320 Speaker 1: creates a fair amount of un. Rest and for learned 521 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,720 Speaker 1: folks Like, luthor who really understood what he was doing 522 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 1: from a theological, perspective begin to pick this apart and, 523 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,879 Speaker 1: say we are contributing to the. Problem these things need 524 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: to change from a theological perspective because at route they 525 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: simply are not. Correct, yes, well this is. Good this 526 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,879 Speaker 1: is a great introduction to the. Series, folks just come. 527 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: Back we're gonna do several episodes on, this and we'll 528 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 1: do them in, sequence and so you can kind of 529 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: get a broad sense of The. Reformation, again i'd encourage 530 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 1: you to check out the tours tours for ten That 531 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: greg offers there's a link in the show notes to 532 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,439 Speaker 1: where you can find out more about. That and, yeah 533 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: we'll catch you on the next episode Of Thinking. Christian take, care. Everybody. 534 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 1: THANKS i just want to take a second to thank 535 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 1: the team At Life audio for their partnership with us 536 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: on The Thinking christian. Podcast if you go to lifeaudio dot, 537 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: com you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their. 538 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: Network they've got shows about, Prayer bible, study, parenting and. 539 00:37:59,280 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 2: More