1 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Life audio. Really we're hard on ourselves because we'd really 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: like to be perfect, Like we really were judging ourselves 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:12,719 Speaker 1: so harshly, But there's this upside down pride. It's like 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: I just wish that I was the one that everyone 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: was admiring and that was doing it all right? Or 6 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: with our sin? Like do we really believe that our 7 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: sin is cared for on the cross? Like that it 8 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: is wiped clean, that Jesus's blood washes us white as snow? 9 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: Do we truly believe that because Jesus was judged in 10 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: our place? 11 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 2: Oh? Friend, that's my friend, Shannon Popkin. And today we 12 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 2: are talking about being judge, judging others, judging ourselves the Bible. 13 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 2: I don't know, people get it confused. You're not supposed 14 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,239 Speaker 2: to judge, and then there's other verses that tell you 15 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 2: how to judge. Today we are breaking it all down. 16 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 2: So if you're hard on yourself, or hard on others, 17 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 2: or hard on everyone yourself and others, you are in 18 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 2: the right place. Hey, you're listening to the Compared to 19 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 2: You podcast. I'm Heather Creek Moore, your host. I'm glad 20 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 2: you're here today. Shannon Popkins, She's written a bunch of. 21 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 3: Books, Comparison Girl, Control Girl. She talks about all the. 22 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 2: Issues that you and I likely struggle with, so you 23 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,759 Speaker 2: can check out all of her resources at the link 24 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 2: in the show notes. Hey, if you haven't joined us 25 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 2: for a forty day journey yet, what are you waiting for? 26 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 2: Our forty day journeys started last week? But you can 27 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 2: still join us. You can watch the replay you missed 28 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 2: learn more at improvebody image dot com look for the 29 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 2: forty Day Journey tab. We would love to have you 30 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 2: be there. Now, let's get to today's episode. Shannon Popkin, 31 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:56,559 Speaker 2: I'm so happy to have you back on the Compared 32 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 2: to You podcast. 33 00:01:59,120 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: Thanks to be back. 34 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 2: Today we're talking about something I don't know. 35 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: Do people like to talk about this? 36 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 2: Are you a little bit judgy? I feel like I'm 37 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 2: not judgy at all? And then sometimes I'm like, oh, 38 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 2: that was totally judgy. So today we're going to talk 39 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 2: about that. You uh. 40 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: I think that's exactly right. I think it is something 41 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: we don't really talk about. We do it in our heads, 42 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: or maybe with a trusted friend. He's going to chime in, 43 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: you know, and judge with us. 44 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 2: I agree, yeah, yeah, but it's not something we talk 45 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 2: about enough, I think, so let's just start with the basics, okay, 46 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 2: because I feel like I've heard this a lot. You know, 47 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 2: my husband has tod sermons on the Matthew passage. But 48 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 2: it's like in christ and Dumb at large culturally, people 49 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 2: are like, we're not supposed to judge, do not judge. 50 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 2: The Bible says, do not judge. Is that actually true? 51 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: Well, it is, and it isn't, you know, because look 52 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: at Jesus said both. He said do not judge, and 53 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:00,959 Speaker 1: he said judge with righteous judgment. So it's got to 54 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: be a little nuanced then, right, right, And I think 55 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: the world is wanting to say, right now, don't judge. 56 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: You know, that's your commandment, don't judge. And what they 57 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: mean is like, erase all those lines between right and 58 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: wrong so that we can just like link arms and 59 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 1: be like create this judge free utopia already, Like can 60 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: we please just stop all the judgment and the you know, 61 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: the condescending superiority. And so for that last part, yes, 62 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: let's please stop all the condescending superiority. But as Christians, 63 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: it's not our place, is it to erase those lines 64 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: between right and wrong? And so I think it's been 65 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: like conflated into something that is that's not what Jesus 66 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: is saying in the sermon, and them out and I mean, 67 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: even just look at what he says. You know, he says, 68 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: do not This is Matthew seven, do not judge, so 69 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: that you will not be judged, for you will be 70 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: judged by the same standard through which you judge others, 71 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: and you'll be measured by the same measure that you use. 72 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: And then he goes into that whole like, get the 73 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: splinter out of your eye thing, right, And then but 74 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: look at that, he says, hypocrite. First take the beam 75 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: of wood out of your eye, and then you will 76 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: be able to see clearly to take the splinter out 77 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: of your other or your brother's eye. So the point 78 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: is not to just get that splinter out and stop judging. 79 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: The point is to get the splinter out so that 80 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: I can see clearly to help somebody else with their 81 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: sin otherwise, And so repeatedly I think with the donut, 82 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: judge is a warning about hypocrisy, and so what a hypocrisy, Well, 83 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: that's judging you for this thing I'm doing right now. 84 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: I'm doing exactly the same thing. And that's really I 85 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: think what we could maybe categorize this is a command, 86 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: but it's really coupled with a warning. You know. 87 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's really good. 88 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 2: And I think it's just really good for people to hear, 89 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:03,919 Speaker 2: like you actually read past, you know, judge not he 90 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 2: does say for the way, you know, whatever measure you 91 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 2: used to judge will be So it's like wait, wait, 92 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 2: he said. 93 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 3: Don't judge, and then you're you're gonna judge. 94 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 2: So and then thinking about fruit, right, like we're supposed 95 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 2: to judge. 96 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: That's fruit in the Great Passage like yeah, and so 97 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 1: it talks about let's see, be on your guard against 98 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: false prophets they come and cheap clothing. And you're supposed 99 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: to recognize people by their fruit, which in in other words, 100 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: you're supposed to judge them by the fruit of their lives. 101 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 1: Like there are people who aren't who they say they are. 102 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: They are hypocrious, right, and so you have to have 103 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 1: a you know, a discernment and be able to judge 104 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: who they actually are based on their fruit. You're going 105 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 1: to recognize them by their fruit. But back to that 106 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: earlier part where you were talking about whatever you used 107 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: to measure, out your judgment or I like to turn 108 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: it and say, whatever your whatever size scoopyre going to 109 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: measure your mercy with. So I've got these two like 110 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: scoop sizes. Okay, you know those who are on YouTube 111 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: can see. Yeah, but like I've got a big, normal 112 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: size scoop. You know that you might scoop out like 113 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: in a candy jar or something. 114 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 2: And I've got this anybity teeny little a thirty second 115 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 2: yeah one, yeah, of a tea SPO's very teeny thing. 116 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 2: And so yeah, I think it's a good question to 117 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 2: ask ourselves, like what am I going to use when 118 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 2: someone has wronged me? 119 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: How am I going to respond? Am I going to 120 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: just like scoop out judgment with this huge scoop? Or 121 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 1: you know, thinking of mercy? What if I scooped that 122 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: like in whatever size I choose, is what the Lord is. 123 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 3: Going to use? 124 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: You know, He's just not okay with hypocrisy. And so 125 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: I think keeping that in mind is really helpful and 126 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: really important. 127 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's really good. 128 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 2: And I don't know, I don't know how much you've 129 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 2: like thought about this ankle, or maybe you have even 130 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 2: written about it, but thinking like I talked to him 131 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 2: and all the time they're like, oh no, I give 132 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 2: grace to other people all the time. Like I'm you know, 133 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 2: I totally I don't judge people. 134 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 3: It's just myself. It's myself. 135 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 2: Like the scoop when I like measure myself is you know, 136 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 2: heaps of you know, judgment, and I always kind of 137 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 2: challenge them. I'm like, I don't like I hear you 138 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 2: saying that, but I don't know if that's actually true, 139 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 2: because because the standard that we hold to ourselves to 140 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 2: a lot of times we do end up kind of 141 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 2: subtly holding other people that that standard. 142 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: Maybe we don't say. 143 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 2: It out loud, but I don't know what are your 144 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 2: thoughts around that. 145 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: Well, again, I think it's both, you know, I do 146 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: think there are times that we are so hard on ourselves, 147 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: but it's really we're hard on ourselves because we'd really 148 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: like to be perfect, Like we really we're judging ourselves 149 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: so harshly, but there's this upside down pride. It's like 150 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: I just wish that I was the one that everyone 151 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: was admiring and that I was doing it all right? 152 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: Or with our sin, like do we really believe that 153 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: our sin is cared for on the cross, like that 154 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: it is wiped clean, that Jesus's blood washes us white 155 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: as snow? Do we truly believe that because Jesus was 156 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: judged in our place, he was the judgment of God. 157 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: The wrath of God fell on Jesus and he hung 158 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: on that cross out of mercy for us. And our 159 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: God is too just to make us pay for what 160 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: Jesus has already paid for, right he doesn't, you know, 161 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: that would be that would be a very unjust God 162 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: to hold us harshly with condemnation because Jesus already paid 163 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: for it, right, And so do we believe that, you know, 164 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: those of us who do judge ourselves with extreme harshness, like, 165 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: do I really believe that Jesus died on that cross, 166 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: that he took my sin on him? And if so, 167 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: then no, that's a misplaced, shame, misplaced judgment on myself. 168 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: But I think you're right, because I do think, you know, 169 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 1: maybe there are times and I kind of waffle back 170 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: and forth, you know, I am oslate between judging myself 171 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 1: harshly and again it's just like this this wounded pride 172 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:16,839 Speaker 1: of like, oh I did it. I did something so 173 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,199 Speaker 1: shameful I did it again, or I just I can't 174 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: get it right. But then I kind of enjoy And 175 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: this is something, this is the part where we just 176 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: don't talk about Heather. It's gonna be good. 177 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 2: Everyone's turning up their volume right now. 178 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, there's this enjoyment that we have of other 179 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: people not doing it right, you know, of other people 180 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: falling of like we get. I think we get these 181 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: little judgy boosts of pride. I'm like, oh, look at them, 182 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: can you believe? Like? And we have all this disgust 183 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: and contempt in our hearts, and the finger of judgment 184 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: always points down, It always points down from this elevated 185 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 1: self exalting position. And so I think when we're judging ourselves, 186 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: it's there's a pride component, But when we're judging other 187 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: people there's also a different sort of pride component. And 188 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 1: so in both aspects. Really, I think it's it's looking 189 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 1: at ourselves with the right lens, the right evaluation, and 190 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: then also doing that with other people, you know, and 191 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 1: it really requires humility. 192 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I think boy, I think most of our 193 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 2: problems would be solved if we just could always be humble, right. 194 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: Exactly, yeah, And I really think that that's what people 195 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: are reacting to when they say, don't judge, you know, 196 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: don't judge me, you know, don't. What they're reacting to 197 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: is the pride and the condescending superiority that they see 198 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: in us. And it's legitimate, I think, even you know, 199 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: I think everybody's kind of judging. Right. The stats say 200 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: that non believers criticize Christians for being too judging, but 201 00:10:59,920 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: I think the whole world's kind of judging. But I 202 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: do think that non believers have a point when they 203 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: look at Christians and say, you guys are so judgy, 204 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: because we are, you know, we're so But in that 205 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: the component that I feel like the Lord wanted me 206 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 1: to talk about in this book, Heather, it's just like that, 207 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: that condescension, like that, that exalting of myself. And as 208 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: I as I'm looking down at the world, and I mean, Jesus, 209 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: said Paul, And first Corinthian says, what business is it 210 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,719 Speaker 1: of mine to judge outsiders? Don't judge those who are 211 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: don't you don't don't you judge? I'm sorry, don't you judge? 212 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: Those who are inside? God judges outsiders. So look at 213 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: that we've got some categories there. We are too, you 214 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: know when we earlier we said judge with righteous judgment, 215 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: But that's for that's an inside thing. We are to 216 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: look at each other's through and we are in like 217 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: Matthew eighteen, we are to talk to each other when 218 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: we see habitual sin. But for the world, like that's 219 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: we got to be careful because we're told not to judge, 220 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: and like, what are we expecting? You know, why would 221 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: we expect the world to be different? 222 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 2: Right? Well, it's it's like what you said. I mean, 223 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 2: there's absolute truth, and so we're not saying like, oh, 224 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 2: we'll just accept everything. And you know, it's your truth, 225 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 2: my truth, his truth for truth exactly. It's not that 226 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 2: it's his truth, but it's God's truth. But God's judging them, 227 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 2: right then, you know, our our ask, I think, our invitation, 228 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 2: if you will, our command is to love right and 229 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 2: Jesus walked with sinners and talked with sinners and ate 230 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 2: with sinners and. 231 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: Truly loved his enemies. Yeah, and if we're judging those 232 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: that we like and they're actually they're not our enemies, 233 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: They're God's enemies. Like that's what you were I think 234 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 1: you were just saying, is like the judge is going 235 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: to come from God upon them. They're God's enemies and 236 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 1: he wants us to love them in you know. And 237 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: so one of the things that I've thought about as 238 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: I was approaching this topic is we can get it 239 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,839 Speaker 1: all right, you know, Like I actually have some appendixes 240 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: in the back of this book that talk about like 241 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,199 Speaker 1: which category did these different people or these different situations 242 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: belong in. And I looked at all the teachings of 243 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: Paul and Jesus and I compiled, you know, some pretty 244 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: good ways to think about it. But I did that 245 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: maybe ten years ago I studied all of the or 246 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: maybe even longer, fifteen years ago, I studied all the 247 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: verses about judge, don't judge, and I put together this 248 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: tidy little chart and I created it for my Bible 249 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: study group and I handed it all out. But I think, Heather, 250 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: after I got done with that, I just I was 251 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: even more judging because now I could judge with precision 252 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: who was doing it wrong and make sure I was 253 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: doing all right. Yeah. So with that in mind, I 254 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: think I wanted to come at this looking at stories 255 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: of the Bible. Okay, And so I don't want us 256 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 1: It's not to the exclusion of all the New Testament teachings, 257 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: but I wanted us to look at stories because stories 258 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: help us deal with the heart of the manner, and 259 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 1: that really is what we're what we're what we need 260 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: to think about is our heart pasture and so you know, 261 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: thinking of people like who are going to be judged, 262 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: like what is our heart toward them? And so like 263 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: think about the story of the flood, you know, Noah 264 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: and the flood. Think about all those people who got 265 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: who were wiped away. That's the first story that I 266 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: wanted to deal with in the book because it really 267 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: sets up who is this judge that we all answer to? 268 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: Who is God? And God's response? He grieved when he 269 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: looked out and saw evil spreading and it had spread 270 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: so far that there was only one left. No Noah 271 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: was the only the only blameless righteous man. I mean, 272 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: I think maybe even in his family, like the whole 273 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: world had carved into evil and darkness, and it was 274 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: just a horrible time in history. And so you know, 275 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: the connotation is violence, and so there's you know, there's 276 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: two sides of the sort of violence. So people were 277 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: not only harsh and violent and evil in that way. 278 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: But the people were getting hurt. You know, the Lord 279 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: looks out and he sees all of this, and his 280 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: heart was grieved. He is a judge who cries, you know, 281 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: he's got tears over what he sees, and that I 282 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: think right there is different than what I see in 283 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: a lot of judging Christians. Yeah. 284 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he's just and holy and so he 285 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 2: you know, has to be true to his character, but 286 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 2: he still cares. 287 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: It's like both are true. I think today people would 288 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: like to say, well, no, like we have the New Testament. 289 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: The Old Testament is all about judgment and harshness, but 290 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: the New Testament. Look at Jesus, he's so merciful. Yes, 291 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: that's true, but it's not as though the you know, 292 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: we've got two halves of the story judgment in mercy. No, 293 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: it's judgment and mercy woven through the whole thing. Like 294 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: that's why I wanted to start with the flood story, 295 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: because this is a story of judgment. And Jesus refers 296 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: back to that story, the story of the flood, and 297 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: he's like, it's going to be just like that, where 298 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: there are people who are going to be washed away 299 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: with judgment and they didn't even see it coming. And 300 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: so he's warning them. He's warning about judgment. But if 301 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: we look back at that story of the flood, don't 302 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: just look at the flood waters. There's also an arc, right, 303 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: and that's where the whole story has the spotlight. If 304 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: I spoke on this topic a few weeks back, and 305 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: I put a slide up and I showed them here's 306 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: Genesis sixth through nine, and the black lettering that's all 307 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,199 Speaker 1: the verses that have to do with the judgment of 308 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: the flood and everything. But the white lettering, the you know, 309 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: the light colored front. That is all of the parts 310 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: that are about the arc and the plans go moving forward, 311 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 1: and the animals and the food and the construction and all. 312 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's where the spotlight. That's where God's 313 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: spotlight is on this story. He yes, he wants us 314 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: to know that he is a god of judgment, But 315 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: what has his heart, What he wants for us to know. 316 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: The thing he most wants us to know is about 317 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 1: his mercy. Look at his mercy on these people. Because 318 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 1: what we find out at the end of the story 319 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 1: of the flood is Noah was. 320 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 3: Not this hero. 321 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: He was not the savior, you know, you know, he 322 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 1: gets drunk and and so it's like almost we see 323 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: like a repeat of the story of Adam, where there's 324 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: fruit and there's nakedness and there's shame. It's like it's 325 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: a replay. So Noah's not the savior of the story. 326 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: But Noah is shown such mercy. And what really makes 327 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: him stand out is he's the one who walks with God, 328 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: and that's all of us. So God doesn't give us 329 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: this list of rules apart from him. He wants us 330 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: to walk and talk with him and to learn a 331 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: new way to live. But even so, we're going to 332 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: fall short, just like Noah, and he makes away with 333 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 1: this arc. And so it's this beautiful story of judgment 334 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: and mercy. Yeah, yeah, it's the mercy rises above his judgment. 335 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 3: Yeah. 336 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 2: Well, I'm kind of tying that back to what we're 337 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,479 Speaker 2: talking about just a minute ago, with like perfectionism and 338 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 2: really wanting to get it all right or wanting to 339 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,360 Speaker 2: do everything perfect, and kind of I mean another way 340 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 2: to say this is kind of like not wanting to 341 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 2: need the cross in a way because I'd rather just 342 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 2: make sure that I could do it all myself. But 343 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 2: I think what you just pointed out, like the illustration 344 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 2: from Noah is like, is the walking with God? Yeah, 345 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 2: the walking with God like that, we're still caught in 346 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 2: the like law, I want to do a per affect 347 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 2: and He's saying walk with me, walk humbly with me, 348 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 2: like Mike goes, Yeah. 349 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,479 Speaker 1: That was that was from the beginning. That was God's attention. 350 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: That was his health. Is he wanted Adam and Eve 351 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 1: to walk with him. Look at that tree was called 352 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It's 353 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,239 Speaker 1: like a good judgment tree, right, And he didn't give 354 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: him that fruit. He kept that fruit from them because 355 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: he wanted them to walk and talk with him, to 356 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: have good judgment, right, and to understand wisdom in the world. 357 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: And they they wanted the fruit. They wanted the fruit 358 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 1: to the exclusion of walking with God. You know, they 359 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 1: just wanted it for themselves. They wanted the knowledge, the wisdom, 360 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 1: the understanding apart from God. And that's where that's the fall, right, 361 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: And so the redemption has to do with returning to 362 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,959 Speaker 1: walking with God. I've heard it said that here in 363 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: the West, if you ask somebody, well, let me just 364 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: ask you howther how did Adam and Eve first sin? 365 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: What did they do? Well? 366 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 3: I think I know the right answer. They disobeyed God. 367 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 3: Then the radios obeyed and ate the fruit is. 368 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: The fruit we look at it. But if you ask 369 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: somebody in the Middle East what they'll tell you what 370 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: did they first do? They stopped walking and talking with 371 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: God because they're more collectivist culture, and they put more 372 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: emphasis on the ways that were influenced or that we 373 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: influence one another, and so we tend to think more individualistically, right, Yeah, 374 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 1: And we look at Noah and we think, oh, he 375 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: had this standout righteousness. That's why God gave him the 376 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: plans for the Arkans, because he has this spine and 377 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 1: he does right and he's going to get the right outcome. 378 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 1: But that's that's not how someone with a Middle Eastern 379 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: mindset would look at it. They would be like, Okay, 380 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: everybody else has fallen to sin. This man has got 381 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 1: to be influenced by He's got to have outside help. 382 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: And that's what the next verse says, Noah walked with God. 383 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 1: But I want to go back to your point about 384 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: I think we do. We want to just have give 385 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,439 Speaker 1: me the right and wrong? Give me the list, like 386 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: and in fact, I think we would prefer that to 387 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 1: walking with Jesus today. Right, Would you just tell me 388 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: what's right and wrong? Like should I homeschool? Should I 389 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 1: public school? Should I spank my kids? Should I put 390 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: them in time out? Should I? You know, like, I'll 391 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:23,640 Speaker 1: give me the list. Give me and I'll get myself 392 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: to the right side of every list. You know what's modest, 393 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: what's in modest, what's the right movies to watch? What's 394 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: not allowed? Just give me the list and I'll take 395 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: care of it. Versus walking and talking with Jesus to 396 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: have him give us this good judgment. It was never 397 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: intended for us to just know right from wrong apart 398 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: from God. It's always from within the context of this relationship. 399 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 1: And I think we tend to judge other people based 400 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: on like we get our lines, and we know the 401 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,400 Speaker 1: right and wrong line, and then we not only maybe 402 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: draw our own lines, you know, we see, Okay, here's 403 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: God's line, and I'm going to back up ten feet 404 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: in my line, and then I'm going to judge the 405 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 1: people who cross it. You and I were talking about 406 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 1: the topic of young adults and dating because we both 407 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: have young adult kids, and there's a trend right now 408 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: to be super judgy about dating, like whether or not 409 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 1: you should be on online apps, or whether or not 410 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: you should date someone who like these these young adults 411 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: that I know were telling me about this podcast that 412 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,479 Speaker 1: they listen to, and the woman, I'm sure, she's just 413 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 1: a lovely woman, and you know, I love the ways 414 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: that she's discipling these girls, but she kind of adds 415 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: these like never date a guy who doesn't read his 416 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: Bible seven days a week, like that sort of thing, 417 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: and my heart is like, well, what about the guy who, 418 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 1: like I think whether you said your husband came to 419 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: faith as a twenty. 420 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 3: What was seven? Yeah, twenty twenty seven? 421 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: So and when did you meet him? 422 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 3: I met him at thirty at thirty yeah, And at that. 423 00:22:58,040 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: Point was he reading his Bible every day? 424 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 2: I don't really know. 425 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 3: I don't know that I was reading my Bible. 426 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: I know, see, I. 427 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 3: I don't think I would have standard, but. 428 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 1: I think we, you know, we hold people to these 429 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: standards that it's like, well, what are you tethering yourself 430 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: to your list you know, of right and wrong and 431 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: like good judgment or are you tethering yourself to Jesus, 432 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: because Jesus may ask you to marry some guy who 433 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: only reads his Bible on the weekends. But here is 434 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,640 Speaker 1: your hope, like it, where's your hope? Your hope is that, yeah, 435 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: he's tethered to Jesus, he's walking and talking with the Lord. 436 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 1: I'm walking and talking with the Lord. And that's our hope, 437 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 1: not that we're doing it all right, because I guarantee you, 438 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 1: at the end of that marriage, Aisle, there are some 439 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: surprises awaiting, right, and our hope has to be in Christ. 440 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's really good. Well, and let me just 441 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 2: back up a second. So you wrote a book It's 442 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 2: called kind of Judge Like, and I know you explained, 443 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 2: you know, doing outlining all the scripture for your Bible 444 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 2: City group, but like, was there something like present day 445 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 2: that you like, I don't know, to God, just like 446 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 2: convict you of like I'm being judgmental. I need to 447 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 2: look into this or was there something going on that 448 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 2: you were like, I just this is what I want 449 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 2: to write a book about. 450 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let me back up and just tell you 451 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: how I grew up. So I grew up in a 452 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 1: super fundamentalist environment. We were very aware of the lines. 453 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: I'm very aware of the people who's stuck doing them. 454 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: I have this memory of sitting on a bus with 455 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: my friends from youth group and we are processing the 456 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 1: righteous indignation burning in our fifteen year old hearts because 457 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: a boy from our youth group had asked a girl 458 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: from our school to a Horrors a movie, and so 459 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 1: we were just outraged because we just knew that he 460 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: had blown our testimony. It was outraged. Never mind that 461 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: this girl was a believer, she just went to a 462 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 1: different denomination, you know. And I don't think we could 463 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: have told you why it was wrong to go see 464 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 1: a movie, but it was like that was one of 465 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: the lines that our group that we were part of, 466 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: like we just knew that that was wrong, that that 467 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 1: was going to ruin our testimony. And then now I 468 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: go to see movies all the time, you know, so 469 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 1: like if if it's not grounded again in like what 470 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: God says, that's that's where we can go awry. And 471 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: so growing up in that sort of a situation, in 472 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: that sort of a context, I always knew that I 473 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 1: was kind of judgy. I sensed it in myself, and 474 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 1: I didn't like it in myself. But I think honestly, 475 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 1: the more I've walked with the Lord, the more temptation 476 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: there is right because now I know with with more 477 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 1: clarity what is right what is wrong? You know, I'm 478 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 1: someone who I spend a long lot of hours with 479 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: my Bible open on an average day, and I can 480 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: tell you all the ways, and yet I just sense 481 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: in my heart that there's a drift, like I am 482 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: not responding the way that Jesus has that he did. 483 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: And so I think for me looking at these stories 484 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: of the Bible, it was like as I was studying 485 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: the stories, the Lord was exposing those those that heart pasture. 486 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: And I got to tell you, like writing the book, oh, 487 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,719 Speaker 1: I have never been more tempted to judge people. Like 488 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 1: it's like, oh, just this intense, Like I was losing 489 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: sleep because all the Lord, I think he tests us 490 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: with our message, and I think the enemy wants to, 491 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: you know, come at us. I said that wrong. The 492 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: Lord doesn't tempt Did I say tempt? He tests us 493 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: and he's the devil. That yeah, the Devil tempts us. 494 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 1: And I think probably both were happening. But I in 495 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 1: my day to day life, Heather, I have this extreme 496 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: temptation to hold court in my head and list out 497 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: all the ways I'm right and all the ways you're wrong. 498 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: And it's it's like fed by my pride. It's like 499 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 1: I want to know that I know that I'm doing 500 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: it all right. And I really find this like this again, 501 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,360 Speaker 1: it's embarrassing to say that, like this boost of pride 502 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: when I can show you that you're doing it all wrong. Now, 503 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: these are not things I would say to you. It's 504 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: all very private. 505 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 2: You've just gotten to see the inside of Shannon's head 506 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:28,159 Speaker 2: right here. 507 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: It's awful. It's awful. But but yeah, as the Lord 508 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: has exposed that, it's like, Okay, I don't want to 509 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: be this person that I'm becoming. And I think, you know, 510 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: maybe we we've all met somebody like that's super judgy 511 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: and harsh. As an older person, the older we get, 512 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: you know, these things tend to grow in our hearts, 513 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 1: and I want to be more like Jesus. He was 514 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 1: so so merciful, he was so kind, and so that's 515 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,159 Speaker 1: that's really what was on my heart. You know, I 516 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: felt like maybe I'm the right person because I get it. 517 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: I get it from inside those judge circles, and I 518 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: know the temptation, and I just am just kind of 519 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 1: calling us to consider, like I think, you know, I 520 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,959 Speaker 1: think we're all kind of judgy, but let's have an 521 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: eye on our hearts, you know, let's have an eye 522 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: on what is happening in our hearts. 523 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think maybe the category and that 524 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 2: you and I both fall in, but I think a 525 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 2: lot of listeners probably fall into is like the good 526 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 2: good girl category, yeah, right, where it's like, well, you know, 527 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 2: I follow all the rules, I do all things. 528 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: And then as the good girl whenever you feel judged. 529 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: So that's that's probably I should have said that earlier. 530 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: What tempts me more than anything to judge is when 531 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: I feel judged, I feel judged and become judging. It's 532 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,479 Speaker 1: just like this chain reaction because you're right, I am 533 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: the good girl, and everybody needs to know that I'm 534 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: doing it all right, And if you're gonna if you're 535 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: gonna contend with that, well then I might have some 536 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: things to say about you in my courtroom, right, right, 537 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: but right is adjourned. Right, We don't need to spend 538 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: any more time in there because we miss grace. Right, Yeah, 539 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: Like I mean, I think that's a hard. 540 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 3: Thing for us. 541 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,959 Speaker 2: Us Go girls, we good girls again my parts of speech, right, 542 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 2: But it's hard for us because it's like, well I'm 543 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 2: actually pretty good. 544 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, but there again are we are? We like go 545 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: reverting back to the lines versus walking with Jesus right 546 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: right right, Because the closer we get to Jesus, the 547 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: more aware of our rights our flaws, you know, honestly, 548 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,239 Speaker 1: like the the more spiritually mature I've become. It's not 549 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: as though I'm less aware of any cinema life, No, 550 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: I'm more aware. It's just like I want to be 551 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: perfect and I don't want there to ever be an 552 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: exposing of imperfection. And so but as I walk with 553 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: the Lord, those things that I do, the ways, you know, 554 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: like for now, if I low up at my husband 555 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: or my kids, I can spend some serious time in. 556 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 3: Just oh, I. 557 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: How can I be this way after all these years? 558 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: Those are my those are my old ways. I want 559 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,479 Speaker 1: to be healed. I want to be and and but 560 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: that just leads me back to Look, I need mercy. 561 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: Mercy is not receiving the judgment that I do deserve, 562 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: and so implied in needing mercy is that I have 563 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: I'm wrong, that I have wronged, that I am wrong. 564 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: So implied in that is I by saying I need mercy. 565 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: There's a humility in that. And that leads me back 566 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: to Jesus and back to that cross where he spread 567 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: his arms wide on that cross. Not because he was, 568 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: you know, too weak. Some people thought he was too 569 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: weak to come down from that cross, but no, he 570 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: was too merciful. And so I just go back and 571 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: I picture him with those arms wide open because he 572 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: wanted to receive me. And that's that's the beautiful story 573 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: that I'm part of. So yeah, I don't want to 574 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: be this good girl who does it in mercy. 575 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 2: I want it right right. That's like the Pharisees. That's 576 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 2: that's absolutely yeah. I was a fantastic Pharisee. 577 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 3: I know I was. 578 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 2: But but to what you said about the closer you 579 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 2: walk with the Lord, the more you see your sin. 580 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 2: We my husband and I were marriage counseling for a 581 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 2: long time and one of the times the counselor set 582 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 2: us free because there were, you know, seasons where it's like, yeah, 583 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 2: you've kind of gone as far as you right now, 584 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 2: He said to us. 585 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 3: We were like, well, how. 586 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 2: Are we going to know, like when we've arrived, how 587 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 2: we can know we're doing it right? And he's like, well, 588 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 2: you'll know you've matured when your own sin bothers you 589 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 2: more than the sin of your spouse. And so that 590 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 2: has been like just you know, key, because I think 591 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 2: to go back to judgment right, like he had had 592 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 2: a whole army of judges, and inside my head, I mean, 593 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 2: I think my husband probably was the recipient of most 594 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 2: of my judgment for at least the first decade of marriage, like, 595 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 2: you didn't do this right, You didn't do this right, 596 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 2: You didn't like I can't believe you would do that. 597 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 2: You can do that, and you know, and of course 598 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 2: you know, I let myself off free for all those things, 599 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 2: but I kept a big scorecard for him. And so yeah, 600 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 2: I mean that that was the stop me in my 601 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 2: tracks moment for like, Okay, no, no, I can't. 602 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 1: That's hypocrisy, isn't it. It's judging somebody for the very 603 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: things that I do. And I mean, can I really say, 604 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 1: you know, I'll get at him for being messy or 605 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: right not being on time, But can I really say 606 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: that I'm not messy and that I'm late Noah, and 607 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: so that that is hypocrisy. And it's also like the 608 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: judging of the superficiality. That's another thing that we're warned against. 609 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: Are we, you know, are we just judging? Are we 610 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: assuming that we know somebody's heart right based on and 611 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: the superficial thing that we see, Like we're so quick 612 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: to judge their motives and their you know, like that 613 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 1: they weren't thinking of us or I'm chugging husbands. But 614 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: and do we really know as much as we think 615 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: we know about people and the ways that we you know, 616 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: when we're holding court. Actually, while I was writing the book, 617 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: you know, I told you I was so just undone 618 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: by my temptation to judge or to feel judged, And 619 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: and the Lord really prompted a lot of things that 620 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: I need to go back and think through and deal 621 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: with a lot of situations, you know, as I was 622 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: studying and writing. And one of them was a friendship 623 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: that I had had with a woman. Her name is Renee. 624 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: We'd been dear friends when our kids were little, and 625 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: then probably about that ten or fifteen years ago, I 626 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: had invited her to be on my prayer team, because 627 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: I go out and speak and I have people praying 628 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: for me, and she didn't. She didn't respond, and so 629 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: she you know, she wasn't going to be on the team. 630 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: And in my heart, I'm thinking, like what, like I 631 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: thought we were friends, you know, like apparently apparently not. 632 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 1: And then I started doing that courtroom thing. I'm like, 633 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: I know why, I know why. I know why she 634 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: doesn't want to be it because in her heart and mine, 635 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 1: she is thinking, who does Shannon think she is? Speaking? Writing? 636 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: You know, who does she think she is? She knows me, 637 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,240 Speaker 1: she knows like I'm just an average girl, Like who 638 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: does she thinks she is? And so then I started 639 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 1: thinking like I don't know if we're really that great 640 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: of friends, and I just like I just pulled back. 641 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 1: And then I just pulled back a little more and 642 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 1: life got busy, and I look like many many times 643 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: I've gone back to that in my mind of like 644 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 1: her not choosing to be on that prayer team and 645 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: judging what I thought I knew. I thought I knew 646 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: what she was saying and thinking, and I was convicted. 647 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I never even gave her a 648 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,359 Speaker 1: chance to defend her that hot or idea like right 649 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 1: to respond to it. And so I did a very 650 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: hard thing, and I sent her message and I said, 651 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: I need to apologize. I have judged your heart and 652 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: your motives, and you know, back when I asked you 653 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: to be on that prayer team, I've assumed that this 654 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:13,799 Speaker 1: is what you were thinking and saying. And I just 655 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: confess that to you, and I said, you can you 656 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:17,799 Speaker 1: can respond if you want. You don't have to. It 657 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: is so far in the past, but I just know 658 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,479 Speaker 1: the Lord has convicted my heart of this. Well, Heather, 659 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,240 Speaker 1: She texted me back within like thirty seconds. Okay, Shannon, 660 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, I am so glad you reach out 661 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,320 Speaker 1: because I have never ever, once in my heart judged 662 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: like you that way. I think it's great what you're doing. 663 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,359 Speaker 1: I've never had one negative thought about it. And I'm 664 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: so glad you asked me, because no, that is not 665 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: what I was thinking. She goes, I thought I was 666 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: on the prayer team. Happened? Was I just you know, 667 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,319 Speaker 1: I don't maybe I missed an email or something, And 668 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: oh my goodness, I started crying. And I picked up 669 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: the phone and called her and we had this amazing 670 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 1: conversation where it was like, I am so sorry that 671 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 1: I judged you, like judged you know, the superficish. I 672 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 1: judged her heart, right, I didn't know those things. I 673 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: didn't know you were thinking those things. And she was 674 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: just like, it's okay. I'm just glad we could talk 675 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: about it, and like we've kind of you know, the 676 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:18,720 Speaker 1: Lord has re uh just given us this, this refresh 677 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,399 Speaker 1: on our friendship. And she and her husband were both 678 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: empty nesters. They came and stayed for us with us 679 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: for a weekend, and it's just and I'm so happy 680 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: about that. But I'm also like, just I have this 681 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,320 Speaker 1: sadness of like, how many things have I missed because 682 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: of the judgment and the contempt that I hold my 683 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,720 Speaker 1: heart for other people, including my husband? Right, my kids 684 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: are any anyone? And so man, I just I want 685 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:45,959 Speaker 1: to be free of that. Yeah, and she didn't. 686 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 2: I mean, what a great story, because I think anyone 687 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 2: who at the beginning of this episode, if they stuck 688 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 2: around after deciding they weren't judgy, hearing. 689 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,800 Speaker 1: That story, you're like, oh, oh. 690 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 2: I've assigned motives. I didn't consider that judge. 691 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 3: Oh but yes, you're right. That is just another way 692 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 3: to say it. 693 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 1: Isn't it. 694 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,280 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, that's powerful. 695 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 2: Well, he as we wrap up here today, tell us 696 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 2: about kind of judge Like you said a little bit 697 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,239 Speaker 2: like we kind of go through some Bible stories, but 698 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 2: just like what's your heart for this book and like 699 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 2: who needs to read it? 700 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, we are looking at finding mercy for myself 701 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:27,839 Speaker 1: and for other people. So that's really like you brought 702 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: up that harsh judgment that we have ourselves, and we 703 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,879 Speaker 1: find both of those in the story, both the overarching 704 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: story of the Bible. But I think these six stories 705 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: that we look at, there's three from the Old Testament 706 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:42,799 Speaker 1: and three from the New Testament and both and all 707 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: of them have judgment and mercy woven through them. But 708 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: with each story, we've got a different lens where we're 709 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 1: kind of looking at this from a different angle. And 710 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: I do I just think stories package up such good 711 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,799 Speaker 1: truth in a way that accesses our hearts versus just 712 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 1: the right and wrong, because I think, you know, when 713 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:02,799 Speaker 1: we're being kind of judgy, we just want to know 714 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: those lines and you know, like just get me on 715 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: the right side of the line. But these stories don't 716 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,359 Speaker 1: allow that sort of response, you know, they're they kind 717 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 1: of mess with their hearts and and that's really I 718 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 1: think helpful for us. So yeah, so the the characters 719 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,719 Speaker 1: that I looked at or the Bible stories were the 720 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 1: Flood Noah and then Rahab, Jonah, the Simon, the Pharisee, 721 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 1: and then the blind Man and then the Thief on 722 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:34,440 Speaker 1: the Cross. So they're beautiful stories. I enjoyed it so 723 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,839 Speaker 1: much writing this book, and I mean every chapter I 724 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: was just undone by. But yeah, I'd love for you 725 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: to pick up a copy. And we've got a leader's guide. 726 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 1: We have different resources for you. There's a kind of 727 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 1: judgy quiz if you're. 728 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 3: You know every. 729 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 1: Quiz, Yeah, well you can. We can maybe give a 730 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 1: direct link, but it's at my site, Shannon Papkin at 731 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: Edward slash Judgie. Okay, you can find all this stuff, 732 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,399 Speaker 1: but yeah, take the quiz. And then once you take 733 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,799 Speaker 1: the quiz, you have this little heart check that I'll 734 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 1: send you that you can keep on your phone or 735 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 1: print out, and it really will get at some of 736 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 1: those heart level questions that we all need to be processing. 737 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:16,439 Speaker 1: I love that. 738 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 2: Well, and your book is it's out this week, so 739 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:20,960 Speaker 2: you go grab one at Amazon. 740 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 3: I haven't gotten to read this one. 741 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,320 Speaker 2: Yet, which I normally like to read before the interviews, 742 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,799 Speaker 2: but I'm just going to tell you listeners that I 743 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:30,400 Speaker 2: endorse anything by Shannon Popkin. 744 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:31,359 Speaker 3: It's all good. 745 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,279 Speaker 2: So she's written a bath control in comparison to and 746 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 2: it's all good. So I know that this is gonna 747 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 2: be a great resource. So Shannon, thank you for being on. 748 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 3: The show today. 749 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,439 Speaker 2: It was my pleasure. Thanks for having me, and thank 750 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,360 Speaker 2: you for watching or listening. I hope something today has 751 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 2: helped you stop comparing and start living by body Compared 752 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,320 Speaker 2: to podcasts Tractic part of the Life Audio Podcast Network. 753 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:58,960 Speaker 2: For more great Christian podcast what a Life Audio dot com? 754 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 2: Don't you go to s