1
00:00:01,820 --> 00:00:04,800
Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

2
00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,000
Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

3
00:00:08,020 --> 00:00:11,350
Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

4
00:00:11,490 --> 00:00:12,570
Speaker 2: I'm Dr. James Spencer.

5
00:00:12,910 --> 00:00:16,750
Speaker 1: Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways

6
00:00:16,790 --> 00:00:20,810
Speaker 1: God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural,

7
00:00:20,930 --> 00:00:24,350
Speaker 1: and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ.

8
00:00:24,870 --> 00:00:25,970
Speaker 2: Now, on to.

9
00:00:25,829 --> 00:00:29,660
Speaker 1: Today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome to this

10
00:00:29,710 --> 00:00:30,930
Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian.

11
00:00:30,980 --> 00:00:31,320
Speaker 3: I'm Dr.

12
00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,300
Speaker 1: James Spencer, and I'm joined today by Unke Strasser. She's

13
00:00:34,340 --> 00:00:36,699
Speaker 1: the author of a new book called You Were Never

14
00:00:36,780 --> 00:00:41,960
Speaker 1: Meant to Lead Alone. And she's also the co-vocational lead

15
00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:44,680
Speaker 1: pastor of Makialo'o.

16
00:00:45,380 --> 00:00:47,979
Speaker 2: I think I, did I say that? I got it right. Yes,

17
00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:49,920
Speaker 2: that so seldom happens.

18
00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,300
Speaker 1: This is actually the second time Un's been on the podcast.

19
00:00:53,380 --> 00:00:54,740
Speaker 2: And so I'm excited to have her back.

20
00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:56,660
Speaker 1: The last time we were talking about her other book

21
00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,860
Speaker 1: on discipleship, And this one's on leadership. But I see

22
00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:02,140
Speaker 1: so many commonalities between the two. And so I'm really

23
00:01:02,180 --> 00:01:03,780
Speaker 1: excited to have you back to talk through the book.

24
00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:05,660
Speaker 2: Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming and being on the

25
00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:06,319
Speaker 2: podcast today.

26
00:01:06,340 --> 00:01:08,869
Speaker 3: I am super stoked. Thanks for having me, James.

27
00:01:09,290 --> 00:01:13,650
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. So I don't want to just dive into

28
00:01:13,670 --> 00:01:14,270
Speaker 2: the heavy stuff.

29
00:01:14,290 --> 00:01:16,430
Speaker 1: I thought maybe we'd kind of work up to some

30
00:01:16,450 --> 00:01:19,890
Speaker 1: of the more interesting things. But you root a lot

31
00:01:19,940 --> 00:01:22,980
Speaker 1: of your book in Ephesians, which I really loved.

32
00:01:23,380 --> 00:01:24,020
Speaker 2: I thought that was fantastic.

33
00:01:24,630 --> 00:01:28,710
Speaker 1: Really helpful and actually a very effective treatment of Ephesians

34
00:01:28,850 --> 00:01:31,530
Speaker 1: and application to leadership. So maybe we can just start

35
00:01:31,650 --> 00:01:35,390
Speaker 1: out by talking a little bit about that, as well as,

36
00:01:35,410 --> 00:01:38,110
Speaker 1: and I think we'll circle back around to sort of

37
00:01:38,290 --> 00:01:40,610
Speaker 1: why you ended up writing the book, but what drew

38
00:01:40,650 --> 00:01:42,870
Speaker 1: you in to Ephesians in the first place?

39
00:01:42,910 --> 00:01:45,250
Speaker 2: Why did you gravitate there when you're talking about leadership?

40
00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:50,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, if it's going to be, spoiler alert, the focus

41
00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,660
Speaker 3: on leadership and my antidote to any sort of domineering

42
00:01:54,700 --> 00:01:57,700
Speaker 3: leadership that I'm sure every single one of us are in,

43
00:01:58,340 --> 00:02:02,390
Speaker 3: a Christian context, leadership context, whatever, a combination of those

44
00:02:02,450 --> 00:02:06,270
Speaker 3: two contexts, then we know that domineering leadership, it is

45
00:02:06,490 --> 00:02:11,160
Speaker 3: an epidemic, perhaps a pandemic. in the Christian world today.

46
00:02:11,500 --> 00:02:13,360
Speaker 3: And it probably has been for a long, long time.

47
00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:18,510
Speaker 3: So spoiler alert, the antidote to it is actually sharing leadership,

48
00:02:19,250 --> 00:02:21,810
Speaker 3: which really, really does have to do with sharing power.

49
00:02:22,370 --> 00:02:24,489
Speaker 3: So if you're going to be talking about that and

50
00:02:24,530 --> 00:02:28,930
Speaker 3: thinking about what kinds of things the scripture provide also

51
00:02:29,010 --> 00:02:31,680
Speaker 3: as a practical solution to it, then you can't skip

52
00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:36,050
Speaker 3: over Ephesians 4. I know that Ephesians 4 not the

53
00:02:36,090 --> 00:02:39,340
Speaker 3: entirety of the chapter, but portions of it people either

54
00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:43,580
Speaker 3: skip over or only want to highlight. And so I

55
00:02:43,620 --> 00:02:48,300
Speaker 3: really wanted to do a broader scriptural kind of surveillance

56
00:02:48,380 --> 00:02:51,960
Speaker 3: over what did the Apostle Paul actually mean when he

57
00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,760
Speaker 3: was writing about polycentric leadership or shared leadership amongst the

58
00:02:55,800 --> 00:03:00,760
Speaker 3: leadership set or caricatures of leaders that he offers in

59
00:03:00,820 --> 00:03:02,919
Speaker 3: Ephesians 4. But if you kind of take that out

60
00:03:02,940 --> 00:03:07,269
Speaker 3: of context, then you'll also miss the point. So that

61
00:03:07,290 --> 00:03:09,170
Speaker 3: was why I wanted to center it a little bit

62
00:03:09,210 --> 00:03:12,630
Speaker 3: more on landing the plan on Ephesians 4.

63
00:03:12,630 --> 00:03:14,160
Speaker 1: Well, I will say one of the reasons I thought

64
00:03:14,180 --> 00:03:16,840
Speaker 1: it was interesting that you went there is because of

65
00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,260
Speaker 1: Ephesians 5. You know, Ephesians 5 and 6, you know,

66
00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,619
Speaker 1: you have the mutual submission kind of admonition. You have

67
00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:28,340
Speaker 1: then the conversation around husbands and wives, parents and children,

68
00:03:28,540 --> 00:03:31,970
Speaker 1: slaves and masters. And it just felt to me, having

69
00:03:32,010 --> 00:03:35,600
Speaker 1: not really read Ephesians 4 this way, the way you

70
00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,260
Speaker 1: take it, it felt like there was so much more

71
00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:42,210
Speaker 1: continuity thematically, at the very least, between these two chapters.

72
00:03:42,850 --> 00:03:44,990
Speaker 1: as you read them together, that there is a mutual

73
00:03:45,030 --> 00:03:47,370
Speaker 1: submission that needs to happen, that, as you say, the

74
00:03:47,430 --> 00:03:51,900
Speaker 1: domineering aspect is supposed to be sort of not commensurate

75
00:03:51,970 --> 00:03:54,240
Speaker 1: with what it looks like to do leadership in a

76
00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:58,340
Speaker 1: Christian community, and that these different groups of people who

77
00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:00,940
Speaker 1: have been gifted differently by God are really working together

78
00:04:00,980 --> 00:04:02,560
Speaker 1: to move forward.

79
00:04:03,210 --> 00:04:04,470
Speaker 2: Is that a fair assessment?

80
00:04:04,530 --> 00:04:06,230
Speaker 1: I don't want to give everything away from the book,

81
00:04:06,250 --> 00:04:06,590
Speaker 1: but I mean.

82
00:04:06,730 --> 00:04:10,750
Speaker 3: That's, it's just reading the Bible. So you're not, if

83
00:04:10,790 --> 00:04:14,710
Speaker 3: we've read the Bible, it's not a spoiler alert for sure. No,

84
00:04:14,770 --> 00:04:17,169
Speaker 3: I think so. I think that if we read scripture

85
00:04:17,310 --> 00:04:20,290
Speaker 3: out of context, we would definitely miss the point or

86
00:04:20,370 --> 00:04:23,409
Speaker 3: hyper emphasize one thing over the other. But if you

87
00:04:23,450 --> 00:04:25,550
Speaker 3: kind of, and it's like always good work to be like,

88
00:04:25,790 --> 00:04:27,750
Speaker 3: this is what I think this means at this point.

89
00:04:28,050 --> 00:04:32,050
Speaker 3: Can I backtrack a little bit? And I think my book,

90
00:04:32,580 --> 00:04:36,679
Speaker 3: also does a good work around, it's not just moving

91
00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:42,980
Speaker 3: through all of Ephesians context where Apostle Paul's main emphasis

92
00:04:43,020 --> 00:04:47,870
Speaker 3: was on, because Christ has done this, therefore, we are

93
00:04:47,930 --> 00:04:51,310
Speaker 3: people who are marked by mutually submitting to one another.

94
00:04:51,330 --> 00:04:56,430
Speaker 3: That is a given for all Christian faith communities. And

95
00:04:56,529 --> 00:05:00,609
Speaker 3: then these are aspects of nitty gritty on what it

96
00:05:00,630 --> 00:05:03,960
Speaker 3: would look like. my emphasis is on what does leadership

97
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,659
Speaker 3: look like given the context of, because Christ has done this,

98
00:05:07,779 --> 00:05:12,520
Speaker 3: therefore mutual submission exists in a Christian community. What's the

99
00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:14,240
Speaker 3: role of the leader? Yeah.

100
00:05:15,260 --> 00:05:17,500
Speaker 1: One of the things that sort of struck me was

101
00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,060
Speaker 1: as I was reading your book, I'm like, I can

102
00:05:20,260 --> 00:05:25,370
Speaker 1: envision some leaders that I would probably consider domineering reading

103
00:05:25,620 --> 00:05:26,530
Speaker 1: what you're writing and.

104
00:05:26,510 --> 00:05:28,370
Speaker 2: Saying, Oh, cool. I'm doing this.

105
00:05:29,650 --> 00:05:34,100
Speaker 1: And so, um, I'm wondering, you know, just talk a

106
00:05:34,130 --> 00:05:37,000
Speaker 1: little bit about when you when you think about a

107
00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,320
Speaker 1: picture of leadership, when you're talking about shared power, when

108
00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:44,020
Speaker 1: you're talking about this sort of shared leadership context, what

109
00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,489
Speaker 1: does that actually look like? Give people a little bit

110
00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:47,850
Speaker 1: of a picture of what it might look like.

111
00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,300
Speaker 3: Yeah, that probably is the biggest question I'm trying to

112
00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:56,650
Speaker 3: answer in the book, because if leadership isn't defined, then

113
00:05:56,690 --> 00:05:59,630
Speaker 3: it becomes really, really vague or people just assume that

114
00:05:59,670 --> 00:06:02,850
Speaker 3: they're doing it well just because they're in a position

115
00:06:02,910 --> 00:06:06,970
Speaker 3: to do so. A lot of, I think, the work

116
00:06:07,050 --> 00:06:11,839
Speaker 3: around shared leadership or even polycentric leadership nowadays, The church

117
00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,140
Speaker 3: is not borrowing from, I wouldn't say that, but the

118
00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,760
Speaker 3: best field that's probably doing it is in medicine, education,

119
00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,280
Speaker 3: and the business world is now coming onto it. So

120
00:06:22,300 --> 00:06:25,500
Speaker 3: if you kind of think about like something familiar, like Netflix,

121
00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,599
Speaker 3: just recently in the past five years turned, which most

122
00:06:29,620 --> 00:06:33,230
Speaker 3: of the time in CEO world, they would never think

123
00:06:33,270 --> 00:06:36,150
Speaker 3: to really think that this would work, but they're doing

124
00:06:36,370 --> 00:06:43,400
Speaker 3: a definitive co-leadership, co-CEO, So the business world is looking

125
00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:47,250
Speaker 3: at the profitability of this company and looking towards it.

126
00:06:47,260 --> 00:06:49,279
Speaker 3: So I think that the business world is catching up

127
00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:53,380
Speaker 3: to what medicine is doing and education is doing. I'm biased.

128
00:06:53,660 --> 00:06:56,360
Speaker 3: I'm co-vocational. I'm a physician. So, you know, I have

129
00:06:56,540 --> 00:07:00,260
Speaker 3: one toe in the medical field. But if you kind

130
00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:04,039
Speaker 3: of think about, like, what was a decentralized platform that

131
00:07:04,060 --> 00:07:09,060
Speaker 3: allowed everyone's leadership and expertise and contribution and decision making

132
00:07:09,540 --> 00:07:13,460
Speaker 3: make sense? The most recent example is from the pandemic,

133
00:07:14,580 --> 00:07:18,570
Speaker 3: medical field and education field from the very get-go in

134
00:07:18,570 --> 00:07:23,210
Speaker 3: 2020 needed. So there's an open-sourced, decentralized learning products that

135
00:07:23,390 --> 00:07:27,170
Speaker 3: everyone has a clear vision in mind. The clarity of

136
00:07:27,230 --> 00:07:29,410
Speaker 3: thought and goal was that we need to figure out

137
00:07:29,450 --> 00:07:32,280
Speaker 3: a solution to this, a thing that is impacting the

138
00:07:32,300 --> 00:07:36,520
Speaker 3: entire globe. So everyone contributes and everyone's going to win.

139
00:07:37,020 --> 00:07:40,190
Speaker 3: The whole thing, high tides raise all ships, right? If

140
00:07:40,210 --> 00:07:42,910
Speaker 3: you kind of think through that, I'm thinking through who,

141
00:07:43,090 --> 00:07:46,150
Speaker 3: if that is the most beautiful model of highest level

142
00:07:46,170 --> 00:07:49,620
Speaker 3: of contribution, people have the humility to be able to

143
00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,820
Speaker 3: work in collaboration. If all of that, I'm like, that

144
00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:57,460
Speaker 3: probably is not invented by human beings, right? It probably

145
00:07:57,540 --> 00:08:01,560
Speaker 3: is invented by God, right? If you think of any

146
00:08:01,700 --> 00:08:05,660
Speaker 3: aspects where there is humility involved in collaborative work, where

147
00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,220
Speaker 3: people are trying to achieve a similar goal that benefits

148
00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,040
Speaker 3: all of humanity, to me, that has to come from God,

149
00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,580
Speaker 3: not from a human source. And so if you kind

150
00:08:14,620 --> 00:08:16,980
Speaker 3: of look at scripture, then you see so much more

151
00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:23,190
Speaker 3: evidence of how Christian leadership, church leadership started out in collaboration.

152
00:08:23,490 --> 00:08:26,390
Speaker 3: There's a clarity in goal. They want the kingdom of

153
00:08:26,450 --> 00:08:29,470
Speaker 3: God to be the way that every single person all

154
00:08:29,510 --> 00:08:32,210
Speaker 3: across the globe are going to be experiencing how to

155
00:08:32,270 --> 00:08:35,890
Speaker 3: live as truly human ones, because of their devotion and

156
00:08:36,990 --> 00:08:39,930
Speaker 3: love for God. If that's the case, there's a clarity

157
00:08:39,950 --> 00:08:44,270
Speaker 3: in vision. How do then church communities and leadership allow

158
00:08:44,309 --> 00:08:47,470
Speaker 3: for that kind of environment to flourish? So that's one

159
00:08:47,550 --> 00:08:50,969
Speaker 3: piece of it. I think one way to think about

160
00:08:51,010 --> 00:08:55,910
Speaker 3: shared leadership is really in that word collaboration. Where are

161
00:08:55,950 --> 00:09:01,910
Speaker 3: there centers of influence that different kinds and different subsets

162
00:09:02,050 --> 00:09:06,369
Speaker 3: of leaders can contribute for the flourishing of the entire community.

163
00:09:06,730 --> 00:09:09,270
Speaker 3: When I say community, not just the church, but the

164
00:09:09,309 --> 00:09:13,500
Speaker 3: community or neighborhood that church resides in. It's the leadership

165
00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,340
Speaker 3: set that's kind of thinking about all of those things,

166
00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,319
Speaker 3: having that in mind at the same time. And I

167
00:09:19,340 --> 00:09:21,740
Speaker 3: don't think one person can do it on their own.

168
00:09:22,500 --> 00:09:26,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. So much of what I was reading in this

169
00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,590
Speaker 1: book made sense having read your previous book.

170
00:09:29,390 --> 00:09:29,610
Speaker 3: Right.

171
00:09:29,750 --> 00:09:33,610
Speaker 1: Because that book really talks about discipleship as the center

172
00:09:33,630 --> 00:09:35,770
Speaker 1: of the church. And so you have this almost animating

173
00:09:35,830 --> 00:09:40,320
Speaker 1: principle that is driving people toward just discipleship. And to

174
00:09:40,340 --> 00:09:42,620
Speaker 1: the extent that you can get people to buy into

175
00:09:42,660 --> 00:09:46,920
Speaker 1: that shared vision, this is the task we're trying to complete. Now,

176
00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:51,319
Speaker 1: shared leadership seems like it would be at least possible.

177
00:09:51,900 --> 00:09:54,420
Speaker 1: You know, obviously, if you have people sort of following

178
00:09:54,460 --> 00:09:56,699
Speaker 1: their own aims and trying to do their own thing

179
00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,360
Speaker 1: or even chasing money or whatever. you know, there are,

180
00:10:00,380 --> 00:10:02,780
Speaker 1: it's not that there wouldn't be any difficult decisions ever,

181
00:10:03,340 --> 00:10:07,339
Speaker 1: but those other things tend to be more divisive. I mean,

182
00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,089
Speaker 1: when we're pursuing discipleship, we're all trying to sit under

183
00:10:10,130 --> 00:10:12,429
Speaker 1: the authority of Christ. And so we can adjudicate that

184
00:10:12,470 --> 00:10:15,189
Speaker 1: in a different manner. But I think this mode of

185
00:10:15,270 --> 00:10:20,290
Speaker 1: leadership made much more sense. At least I made more

186
00:10:20,330 --> 00:10:23,400
Speaker 1: sense to me. And it felt that's not what I

187
00:10:23,420 --> 00:10:26,700
Speaker 1: mean to say. It felt in concert with your previous work.

188
00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:28,580
Speaker 1: That's the better way to put it. It felt in

189
00:10:28,620 --> 00:10:31,800
Speaker 1: concert with it. It felt like it's flowing out of

190
00:10:31,900 --> 00:10:34,450
Speaker 1: what you wrote in your previous work. Did you have

191
00:10:34,510 --> 00:10:36,450
Speaker 1: any of that in mind when you were thinking through

192
00:10:36,470 --> 00:10:37,090
Speaker 1: leadership at all?

193
00:10:37,770 --> 00:10:41,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, it probably was the most common question posed to

194
00:10:41,130 --> 00:10:45,719
Speaker 3: me when I was making more public a center in discipleship.

195
00:10:46,059 --> 00:10:49,780
Speaker 3: A lot of training or consultation or speaking work, a

196
00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,500
Speaker 3: lot of the questions were around, like, how can you

197
00:10:52,540 --> 00:10:55,479
Speaker 3: do this? How does this fit? Like, who is in leadership?

198
00:10:55,500 --> 00:10:59,800
Speaker 3: You know, those kinds of things. And so because this

199
00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:04,130
Speaker 3: kind of shared leadership model was a common response to

200
00:11:04,170 --> 00:11:07,430
Speaker 3: those kinds of questions, It felt very natural to be

201
00:11:07,809 --> 00:11:10,450
Speaker 3: able to be like, oh, yeah, this is actually what

202
00:11:10,470 --> 00:11:15,059
Speaker 3: we do. And this is this is how discipleship can

203
00:11:15,100 --> 00:11:20,300
Speaker 3: be centered in a growing community because our leadership is shared. OK.

204
00:11:22,140 --> 00:11:26,740
Speaker 1: And do you think, you know, you work co-vocationally, right?

205
00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,900
Speaker 1: And this is something I asked before the interview. So

206
00:11:30,620 --> 00:11:33,319
Speaker 1: you also live in Hawaii. And I think those two

207
00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,280
Speaker 1: factors are kind of they're really interesting for you to

208
00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,960
Speaker 1: come at this sort of idea of shared leadership. Number one,

209
00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:44,350
Speaker 1: the co-vocational aspect generally means that you're not your concern

210
00:11:44,390 --> 00:11:47,150
Speaker 1: for the church community is not necessarily motivated by a

211
00:11:48,630 --> 00:11:50,190
Speaker 1: necessity to make it work to live.

212
00:11:50,929 --> 00:11:51,150
Speaker 3: Right.

213
00:11:51,390 --> 00:11:51,990
Speaker 2: There's not that.

214
00:11:52,780 --> 00:11:54,500
Speaker 1: You may have some economics in there and I'm not

215
00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,179
Speaker 1: asking to get in your business, but usually when people

216
00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,079
Speaker 1: are doing like a co-vocational thing, they have this other

217
00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,120
Speaker 1: job that's sort of providing for their living. And then

218
00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,520
Speaker 1: they do church, not on the side, but they use

219
00:12:05,540 --> 00:12:07,480
Speaker 1: that as sort of a tent making approach to do this.

220
00:12:07,980 --> 00:12:13,280
Speaker 1: And then the Hawaiian context, which I just think, you know,

221
00:12:13,300 --> 00:12:15,160
Speaker 1: it's one of the only places I've ever been to

222
00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,130
Speaker 1: that is, I mean, it's truly an island and it

223
00:12:18,210 --> 00:12:24,200
Speaker 1: has its own very isolated culture based on geography. when

224
00:12:24,220 --> 00:12:27,980
Speaker 1: you come over to the actual mainland of the United States,

225
00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,620
Speaker 1: the separations, yes, we have, you know, different, you know,

226
00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,100
Speaker 1: red state, blue state kind of stuff going on, right?

227
00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,420
Speaker 2: But it does feel a little more connected. It feels

228
00:12:37,460 --> 00:12:38,360
Speaker 2: a little bit more, it.

229
00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,300
Speaker 1: Feels a little bit tighter how you can do things,

230
00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,360
Speaker 1: how you can set things up, those kinds of things.

231
00:12:45,420 --> 00:12:48,740
Speaker 1: And so I'm wondering, how do you think about first

232
00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,280
Speaker 1: shared leadership from a Hawaiian context? Do you feel like

233
00:12:52,380 --> 00:12:56,050
Speaker 1: that Hawaiian context is is particularly conducive for you to

234
00:12:56,090 --> 00:12:57,969
Speaker 1: come up with this sort of a theory and think

235
00:12:58,010 --> 00:13:00,870
Speaker 1: about leadership in this way, and then maybe also speak

236
00:13:00,890 --> 00:13:02,350
Speaker 1: to the co-vocational aspect.

237
00:13:03,410 --> 00:13:06,770
Speaker 3: And dear listener and watcher, I did not answer this

238
00:13:06,830 --> 00:13:08,230
Speaker 3: question when James asked.

239
00:13:08,150 --> 00:13:10,990
Speaker 2: Me previously, so he is listening.

240
00:13:10,590 --> 00:13:13,580
Speaker 3: To it at the same time as you all are. Yeah,

241
00:13:13,670 --> 00:13:17,440
Speaker 3: I think that that is probably a common misnomer around it.

242
00:13:17,540 --> 00:13:20,850
Speaker 3: I think that... I think that I could have written

243
00:13:20,970 --> 00:13:23,550
Speaker 3: both Centering Discipleship and You Were Never Meant to Lead

244
00:13:23,610 --> 00:13:29,760
Speaker 3: Alone from the city that I moved to Hawaii from,

245
00:13:29,780 --> 00:13:34,959
Speaker 3: which is Philadelphia. And I think it speaks to a

246
00:13:35,020 --> 00:13:37,800
Speaker 3: lot of the work around shared leadership that I do now,

247
00:13:38,550 --> 00:13:41,470
Speaker 3: both in the U.S. and the U.K., a lot of

248
00:13:42,210 --> 00:13:47,240
Speaker 3: larger or older denominations in the UK, like Anglican churches,

249
00:13:47,980 --> 00:13:51,859
Speaker 3: you know, who've been centuries, centuries old, right? They are

250
00:13:51,980 --> 00:13:56,090
Speaker 3: asking for work and help and assistance around shared leadership,

251
00:13:56,300 --> 00:14:00,429
Speaker 3: how to structure that into their existing churches. I think

252
00:14:00,570 --> 00:14:04,810
Speaker 3: also probably, it is probably a more reality that, and

253
00:14:05,050 --> 00:14:08,030
Speaker 3: not to be offensive in any way, but the reality

254
00:14:08,170 --> 00:14:13,510
Speaker 3: is that I think that we think of the poster

255
00:14:13,550 --> 00:14:16,300
Speaker 3: child for what leadership looks like in the church in

256
00:14:17,020 --> 00:14:22,720
Speaker 3: megachurch settings. They are usually predominantly white, male, evangelical-led communities.

257
00:14:22,970 --> 00:14:26,700
Speaker 3: There is nothing wrong with a white male evangelical leader.

258
00:14:26,930 --> 00:14:29,700
Speaker 3: I am married to a white guy, love him to pieces.

259
00:14:29,740 --> 00:14:33,960
Speaker 3: He's my favorite white person. But I think that there

260
00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:38,600
Speaker 3: is an offering that the white male-dominated evangelical church setting

261
00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,200
Speaker 3: has made. If you kind of peek under the hood

262
00:14:42,220 --> 00:14:46,380
Speaker 3: a little bit, even on mainland or continental US, you

263
00:14:46,420 --> 00:14:49,010
Speaker 3: would see a lot of churches that are trying to

264
00:14:49,070 --> 00:14:52,680
Speaker 3: do a shared leadership model, but they're probably not white

265
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:58,120
Speaker 3: male led. A lot of the Latino, Latina churches, black

266
00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,000
Speaker 3: led churches, a lot of the Asian American churches, they're

267
00:15:01,060 --> 00:15:03,760
Speaker 3: struggling and wrestling through this because they are coming from

268
00:15:04,260 --> 00:15:08,740
Speaker 3: an immigrant story for some of them, others are coming

269
00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,400
Speaker 3: from oppression. So really, again, it's trying to think through,

270
00:15:12,420 --> 00:15:15,400
Speaker 3: I think shared leadership without a shadow of a doubt

271
00:15:15,470 --> 00:15:18,960
Speaker 3: is really trying to name How do we use or

272
00:15:19,020 --> 00:15:21,960
Speaker 3: abuse power? So if you already have a culture of

273
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,580
Speaker 3: people who are going to be struggling and wrestling with

274
00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:29,070
Speaker 3: power dynamics, then most of the time, these are the

275
00:15:29,090 --> 00:15:35,210
Speaker 3: communities that are probably sharing power more readily than churches

276
00:15:35,230 --> 00:15:39,930
Speaker 3: have historically, especially here in the U.S., been privileged of power.

277
00:15:40,050 --> 00:15:42,660
Speaker 3: So I think that when we are talking about shared leadership,

278
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,280
Speaker 3: really the first thing we should be talking about, why

279
00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:49,230
Speaker 3: isn't it happening? Well, it's probably not happening as visibly

280
00:15:49,290 --> 00:15:51,830
Speaker 3: as we think, not because there's a problem with shared leadership.

281
00:15:52,090 --> 00:15:56,270
Speaker 3: It probably is because human beings have a problem with power. Okay.

282
00:15:57,010 --> 00:15:59,910
Speaker 1: Talk a little bit about that power aspect then, because

283
00:16:01,290 --> 00:16:05,860
Speaker 1: I'm familiar with most of my sociological reading has been

284
00:16:05,980 --> 00:16:10,560
Speaker 1: in Pierre Bourdieu and fields of power and habitus and

285
00:16:10,580 --> 00:16:12,240
Speaker 1: capital and all those kind of fun things.

286
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,960
Speaker 2: And so when I think power, that's sort of what

287
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:15,960
Speaker 2: I'm thinking. It's this.

288
00:16:17,980 --> 00:16:21,800
Speaker 1: Mode that we exercise within a certain field of play to,

289
00:16:22,020 --> 00:16:23,580
Speaker 1: you know, sort of, quote, unquote, win.

290
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:28,170
Speaker 2: The game, right? How are you thinking of power? What

291
00:16:28,210 --> 00:16:28,550
Speaker 2: is that?

292
00:16:29,630 --> 00:16:31,870
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think that that's a great question. I

293
00:16:31,870 --> 00:16:36,530
Speaker 3: think probably one of the best contributors around sociological power

294
00:16:36,570 --> 00:16:40,430
Speaker 3: dynamics is Iris Marion Young. She wrote a watershed book

295
00:16:41,270 --> 00:16:42,630
Speaker 3: No one really took it up because it was like

296
00:16:42,690 --> 00:16:44,790
Speaker 3: in the 90s and everyone's like, what are you talking about, lady?

297
00:16:45,730 --> 00:16:48,850
Speaker 3: But she actually is able to define all the different

298
00:16:49,110 --> 00:16:52,010
Speaker 3: types around power. I'm not going to go into that

299
00:16:52,030 --> 00:16:54,580
Speaker 3: because we're going to go into sociology. But when you're

300
00:16:54,620 --> 00:16:57,840
Speaker 3: just kind of thinking through the church and specifically church setting,

301
00:16:58,340 --> 00:17:01,479
Speaker 3: you can think about power in terms of authority. There's

302
00:17:01,500 --> 00:17:04,400
Speaker 3: probably three different types of authority that exist in the church.

303
00:17:04,619 --> 00:17:07,080
Speaker 3: Every church can look at their community like, oh, yeah,

304
00:17:07,300 --> 00:17:11,250
Speaker 3: these things exist. We give over power or control or

305
00:17:11,350 --> 00:17:15,109
Speaker 3: some sort of influence ability to people who are in

306
00:17:15,170 --> 00:17:19,280
Speaker 3: leadership or decision-making positions. So it's like a decision-making or

307
00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,520
Speaker 3: leadership authority, a spiritual authority. It's like the people who

308
00:17:22,540 --> 00:17:25,340
Speaker 3: are like, oh my gosh, they know the Bible really well,

309
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,800
Speaker 3: or they just feel like holier than me kinds of

310
00:17:28,859 --> 00:17:32,270
Speaker 3: people in the church. We give over some sort of

311
00:17:32,330 --> 00:17:37,040
Speaker 3: power to them. and those who have people power, relational authority,

312
00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,260
Speaker 3: people who are well connected. And so if those three,

313
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,520
Speaker 3: like you think about like, if you have to have

314
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:44,480
Speaker 3: a new initiative in your church, who are you going

315
00:17:44,500 --> 00:17:47,399
Speaker 3: to ask? You're not going to ask like the staff member.

316
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:49,619
Speaker 3: You're probably not going to maybe ask the person who

317
00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,629
Speaker 3: like is the most well-read in scripture. It's the person

318
00:17:53,650 --> 00:17:56,070
Speaker 3: who's the most connected. It's the person who like with

319
00:17:56,210 --> 00:17:59,910
Speaker 3: one text, 50 people show up to a thing, right?

320
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:05,110
Speaker 3: So there's different kinds of power dynamics in play, I think,

321
00:18:05,140 --> 00:18:08,730
Speaker 3: in the church, those three categories. I think another way

322
00:18:08,770 --> 00:18:12,570
Speaker 3: to think about power in the church is how, and again,

323
00:18:12,609 --> 00:18:15,150
Speaker 3: it's not to be offensive, but many of us have

324
00:18:15,190 --> 00:18:18,490
Speaker 3: experienced church shopping. How do we do church shopping? We

325
00:18:18,510 --> 00:18:22,010
Speaker 3: kind of do it through programs, the feel or vibe

326
00:18:22,070 --> 00:18:26,480
Speaker 3: of things. But essentially, people probably church shop or land

327
00:18:26,540 --> 00:18:29,880
Speaker 3: in a church because of how a leader makes them feel.

328
00:18:30,710 --> 00:18:34,050
Speaker 3: So it's this impossible burden, I think, that's placed on

329
00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:37,040
Speaker 3: a senior leadership now that I think that it leads

330
00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:41,860
Speaker 3: to either domineering leadership or being burnt out. But these

331
00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,960
Speaker 3: kinds of leadership sets are, you have to be charismatic,

332
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,080
Speaker 3: you have to be super, super clever, or you have

333
00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:51,030
Speaker 3: to be very, very compassionate and caring. So you're either

334
00:18:52,070 --> 00:18:55,450
Speaker 3: a charismatic, that leader makes me feel cool, which makes

335
00:18:55,490 --> 00:18:57,910
Speaker 3: me feel special. And that's why I want to attend, right?

336
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,360
Speaker 3: Or the person is clever. They make me feel smart.

337
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:03,620
Speaker 3: And that's important to me. And that's why I want

338
00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,990
Speaker 3: to attend. Or the main leader has a high, high

339
00:19:08,030 --> 00:19:12,290
Speaker 3: level of shepherding gift. They care for me. I feel healed.

340
00:19:12,310 --> 00:19:15,790
Speaker 3: I feel safe. And that's why I attend. I think

341
00:19:15,830 --> 00:19:19,810
Speaker 3: that if leadership is only stuck with somebody who needs

342
00:19:19,850 --> 00:19:23,560
Speaker 3: to hold up the full helm of being responsible for

343
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:28,109
Speaker 3: making a congregation feel cool, clever, or cared for, I

344
00:19:28,130 --> 00:19:32,070
Speaker 3: think that that is an impossible position to be sustained.

345
00:19:32,490 --> 00:19:34,530
Speaker 3: And so I think that there are different kinds of

346
00:19:34,570 --> 00:19:39,110
Speaker 3: power dynamics at play in the church. A note about

347
00:19:39,150 --> 00:19:44,450
Speaker 3: co-vocational leadership. I think that this is probably the shift

348
00:19:44,510 --> 00:19:48,550
Speaker 3: that the American church is going to face now. I

349
00:19:48,590 --> 00:19:53,060
Speaker 3: think expedited leadership. post-pandemic. I think that if you kind

350
00:19:53,100 --> 00:19:56,400
Speaker 3: of look at statistics around church planting now, there are

351
00:19:56,850 --> 00:20:03,690
Speaker 3: far less denomination affiliated church planters, and nor are they young.

352
00:20:04,180 --> 00:20:07,070
Speaker 3: It used to be church planters are 20s and 30s.

353
00:20:07,100 --> 00:20:09,399
Speaker 3: The average age of a church planter now is a

354
00:20:09,500 --> 00:20:13,400
Speaker 3: white male in their mid-40s. Church planting, starting a brand

355
00:20:13,460 --> 00:20:17,389
Speaker 3: new church. And most of these church planters are usually

356
00:20:18,970 --> 00:20:25,810
Speaker 3: coming from a non-denominational or disaffiliated organization. And they are co-vocational.

357
00:20:26,210 --> 00:20:29,490
Speaker 3: Because the church or denomination or whatever sending organization is

358
00:20:29,530 --> 00:20:35,040
Speaker 3: telling them, we can't pay for your entire income. Earth's salary. Therefore,

359
00:20:35,100 --> 00:20:38,629
Speaker 3: you need to get another job in addition. So a

360
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,290
Speaker 3: lot of the co-vocational, I think, planting movements are really

361
00:20:42,330 --> 00:20:45,409
Speaker 3: trying to send out people as if they're missionaries, but

362
00:20:45,450 --> 00:20:49,170
Speaker 3: staying within their own country of origin or residence. So

363
00:20:49,490 --> 00:20:51,930
Speaker 3: I think that the shift is already happening. And it's

364
00:20:51,950 --> 00:20:53,670
Speaker 3: not something that's unique to just Hawaii.

365
00:20:54,950 --> 00:20:57,570
Speaker 1: So one of the phenomena that sort of raises a

366
00:20:57,590 --> 00:21:02,100
Speaker 1: question from that phenomenon, because you And again, just trying

367
00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:04,320
Speaker 1: to get a picture of the shared leadership idea.

368
00:21:04,340 --> 00:21:06,540
Speaker 2: I have a couple of questions. So I'll start with one.

369
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:12,030
Speaker 1: When we think about authority, I'm wondering, how do you

370
00:21:12,109 --> 00:21:13,170
Speaker 1: deal with authority?

371
00:21:13,210 --> 00:21:13,869
Speaker 2: Makes sense to me.

372
00:21:13,930 --> 00:21:16,270
Speaker 1: The way you describe power and authority there makes perfect

373
00:21:16,310 --> 00:21:18,390
Speaker 1: sense to me. There are going to be those people

374
00:21:18,430 --> 00:21:21,370
Speaker 1: who have these different types of influence within the congregation.

375
00:21:21,410 --> 00:21:23,790
Speaker 1: And to the extent that they can work together, you're

376
00:21:23,810 --> 00:21:25,310
Speaker 1: probably going to get a better result than not.

377
00:21:26,190 --> 00:21:26,380
Speaker 3: Right.

378
00:21:26,580 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 1: Makes perfect sense. How do you handle then responsibility within

379
00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:36,179
Speaker 1: the congregations? like accountability, responsibility within the congregation. You know,

380
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,239
Speaker 1: so an individual sometimes feels like, hey, I'm responsible for X.

381
00:21:40,780 --> 00:21:43,670
Speaker 1: And so I, you know, I don't share that responsibility

382
00:21:43,710 --> 00:21:47,670
Speaker 1: with anyone, right? I'll be held accountable for this, whatever

383
00:21:47,730 --> 00:21:49,770
Speaker 1: it is. How do you deal with that within a

384
00:21:49,790 --> 00:21:50,930
Speaker 1: shared leadership concept?

385
00:21:51,630 --> 00:21:54,590
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that it probably goes down into the

386
00:21:54,630 --> 00:21:56,520
Speaker 3: weeds a little bit more, but there has to be

387
00:21:56,619 --> 00:21:59,460
Speaker 3: frameworks and structures in place for that to actually happen.

388
00:21:59,810 --> 00:22:06,220
Speaker 3: This is when a collaborative leadership or nimble leadership comes

389
00:22:06,260 --> 00:22:09,020
Speaker 3: into place where there are centers of influence and they

390
00:22:09,100 --> 00:22:13,420
Speaker 3: have a nimble tie to one another. So the accountability

391
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,220
Speaker 3: is they have a shared vision or shared set of goals.

392
00:22:17,170 --> 00:22:21,670
Speaker 3: The different centers of influence are responsible for doing X, Y, Z,

393
00:22:21,750 --> 00:22:27,510
Speaker 3: whether it's tasks or care, given the church setting. And

394
00:22:27,550 --> 00:22:32,630
Speaker 3: then you have a cycle of either feedback or assessment.

395
00:22:32,690 --> 00:22:37,669
Speaker 3: How did we do? What sort of were we weak on?

396
00:22:37,730 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 3: Those kinds of structures and frameworks put into place probably

397
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,680
Speaker 3: will make shared leadership much more sustainable than I think

398
00:22:44,780 --> 00:22:49,780
Speaker 3: most of the time leadership runs from reaction, trying to

399
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:54,989
Speaker 3: maintain status quo. Don't change anything if nothing's broke, but

400
00:22:55,490 --> 00:22:57,149
Speaker 3: If things are breaking, you don't want to talk about it.

401
00:22:57,150 --> 00:22:58,929
Speaker 3: You just want to avoid it until it's broken. And

402
00:22:58,950 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 3: then you react, right? Like a lot of some of

403
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,060
Speaker 3: the organizations or more national organizations who are trying to

404
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:09,619
Speaker 3: shift to senior level, executive level, a shared leadership model.

405
00:23:09,900 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 3: Those are the questions that we wrestle together with. A

406
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:14,939
Speaker 3: lot of the work that I'm doing with them is

407
00:23:14,980 --> 00:23:18,260
Speaker 3: really around, is there a clarity on your roles and responsibilities?

408
00:23:18,940 --> 00:23:22,180
Speaker 3: Do you have enough clarity that this person can take

409
00:23:22,220 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 3: it on? And do you have a system of feedback

410
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 3: and assessment that's regular, that's predictable, that's inevitable, that everyone's

411
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 3: prepared for, where it's not going to place people into

412
00:23:31,540 --> 00:23:34,379
Speaker 3: a shame game, where it's not going to place people

413
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 3: into a performance run kind of organizations, right? But those

414
00:23:39,859 --> 00:23:43,510
Speaker 3: kinds of frameworks and structures put into place are intentional.

415
00:23:44,090 --> 00:23:48,210
Speaker 3: And it is probably assuming that some sort of conflict,

416
00:23:48,970 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 3: some sort of accountability needs to exist. Right. And so

417
00:23:52,220 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 3: you just put that at the lead time and not

418
00:23:54,740 --> 00:23:56,100
Speaker 3: the reaction live time.

419
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:58,500
Speaker 2: Interesting. Yeah.

420
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,510
Speaker 1: OK, so my second question sort of rose out of

421
00:24:02,530 --> 00:24:04,109
Speaker 1: that was the co-vocational aspect.

422
00:24:04,170 --> 00:24:05,850
Speaker 2: I agree with you. I think we're going to see

423
00:24:05,869 --> 00:24:07,609
Speaker 2: a lot more co-vocational folks.

424
00:24:08,070 --> 00:24:11,290
Speaker 1: One of the models that that has been popping up

425
00:24:11,369 --> 00:24:15,060
Speaker 1: lately in a co-vocational model is you have a what's

426
00:24:15,100 --> 00:24:19,870
Speaker 1: called a centralized teaching pastor, someone who preaches teaching. every

427
00:24:19,930 --> 00:24:23,550
Speaker 1: sermon and then it's telecast to all the other groups.

428
00:24:23,590 --> 00:24:26,370
Speaker 1: And then you have like a, maybe a campus pastor

429
00:24:26,390 --> 00:24:31,430
Speaker 1: or something like that. Who's truly co-vocational and he is there.

430
00:24:31,650 --> 00:24:32,710
Speaker 2: She is there to.

431
00:24:33,570 --> 00:24:38,450
Speaker 1: Um, care for and shepherd and then keep that, you know,

432
00:24:38,510 --> 00:24:41,710
Speaker 1: little group of people together, right. To do the work

433
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: of what we might consider the pastoring, the actual pastoring work,

434
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:46,980
Speaker 1: as opposed to the preaching work.

435
00:24:47,740 --> 00:24:48,780
Speaker 2: If we can make that distinction.

436
00:24:50,460 --> 00:24:53,419
Speaker 1: Do you see obviously I see some potential problems with

437
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,780
Speaker 1: that model because you've still got sort of the superstar

438
00:24:55,900 --> 00:25:00,430
Speaker 1: notion and that can be real problematic. But it seems

439
00:25:00,490 --> 00:25:02,270
Speaker 1: to me that that has at least some of the

440
00:25:02,350 --> 00:25:05,150
Speaker 1: elements of the shared leadership that you're talking about. Am

441
00:25:05,170 --> 00:25:06,360
Speaker 1: I right or wrong about that?

442
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,950
Speaker 3: I think that that's a really great starting point. Because

443
00:25:11,109 --> 00:25:15,179
Speaker 3: I appreciate it when churches and those kinds of churches

444
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 3: actually do exist in Hawaii, where there's a main campus

445
00:25:19,580 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 3: in California, and then they do a satellite campus plant

446
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 3: here in Hawaii. And I would just say that no

447
00:25:29,300 --> 00:25:34,350
Speaker 3: offense to anyone doing that model, but that does not

448
00:25:34,390 --> 00:25:37,120
Speaker 3: work here in Hawaii. Okay. Most of the church plans

449
00:25:37,140 --> 00:25:39,379
Speaker 3: that have started that way, it doesn't last long. And

450
00:25:39,420 --> 00:25:42,770
Speaker 3: I think it's because, again, I appreciate that people are

451
00:25:42,810 --> 00:25:45,790
Speaker 3: trying to think differently around it. They're trying to do

452
00:25:45,890 --> 00:25:50,030
Speaker 3: a close knit, but value a local place. I love that.

453
00:25:50,250 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 3: I love that that kind of model also releases leaders.

454
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,100
Speaker 3: It elevates a shepherd, a wired pastors. I love all

455
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,699
Speaker 3: of that. I do think the limitations are if we

456
00:26:00,770 --> 00:26:05,169
Speaker 3: don't remember the two key aspects of why a Christian

457
00:26:05,530 --> 00:26:10,410
Speaker 3: community should work, like why Jesus invested so much, not

458
00:26:10,490 --> 00:26:13,110
Speaker 3: into any sort of gimmick or technology, like he just

459
00:26:13,150 --> 00:26:17,790
Speaker 3: invested in his disciples, right? Why and how I think

460
00:26:17,830 --> 00:26:20,830
Speaker 3: God's intent for a Christian community to work is it

461
00:26:20,850 --> 00:26:23,810
Speaker 3: needs to be rooted to a local place, let their

462
00:26:24,010 --> 00:26:27,939
Speaker 3: witness of the risen Christ has to be witnessed and

463
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,460
Speaker 3: displayed in a local place that it makes sense to

464
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,340
Speaker 3: a local set of people. Right. Uh, that's one. And

465
00:26:34,380 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 3: number two, it's banking on the fact that the, the,

466
00:26:37,540 --> 00:26:40,679
Speaker 3: the leadership or the gift of, uh, of the witness

467
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 3: of the church is happening, not through their leaders. It's

468
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,810
Speaker 3: happening through the congregation. Right. And so it is a,

469
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,970
Speaker 3: I think it's a mind shift on how leaders think

470
00:26:50,030 --> 00:26:53,050
Speaker 3: about their roles. You know, in my book, I spend

471
00:26:53,090 --> 00:26:56,690
Speaker 3: a lot of time around, um, If you're teacher-wired or

472
00:26:56,750 --> 00:26:59,730
Speaker 3: teacher-gifted and all those things, your maturity of leadership doesn't

473
00:26:59,770 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 3: bank on the fact that you can communicate publicly well.

474
00:27:04,190 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 3: It just means that you're an excellent communicator, which is awesome,

475
00:27:06,980 --> 00:27:11,260
Speaker 3: which is so great to have. But your maturity and

476
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 3: your leadership is, are you the person who makes sure

477
00:27:14,020 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 3: that there is a facilitated environment constantly that the people

478
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,169
Speaker 3: of God love to learn from one another? That is

479
00:27:21,210 --> 00:27:24,889
Speaker 3: a very different teaching setting than a person coming in

480
00:27:24,930 --> 00:27:27,590
Speaker 3: and being a teaching pastor a week in and week out, right?

481
00:27:27,890 --> 00:27:30,970
Speaker 3: They're also the people who are looking for other teacher-wired

482
00:27:31,070 --> 00:27:34,350
Speaker 3: gifted people in the room, right? That's one of the

483
00:27:34,390 --> 00:27:37,379
Speaker 3: things that's worked really well within our own communities because

484
00:27:37,410 --> 00:27:41,380
Speaker 3: we do a missional community model. We grow smaller pods

485
00:27:41,540 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 3: of groups all over Oahu. If that's happening and we

486
00:27:46,020 --> 00:27:50,310
Speaker 3: need local leaders, that's the biggest emphasis. If your leadership

487
00:27:50,350 --> 00:27:53,230
Speaker 3: set does not look like the neighborhood your church resides in,

488
00:27:53,510 --> 00:27:56,709
Speaker 3: you need to rethink who's in leadership because you have

489
00:27:56,730 --> 00:28:00,990
Speaker 3: to really assess who's holding power within that community, right? Again,

490
00:28:01,010 --> 00:28:03,710
Speaker 3: if we're talking about leadership, we're talking about power dynamics, right?

491
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,530
Speaker 3: And so I am from West Philadelphia. I don't sound

492
00:28:07,660 --> 00:28:10,970
Speaker 3: like people in Hawaii. So even though I may be

493
00:28:10,990 --> 00:28:13,970
Speaker 3: the best communicator or best teacher or have the best

494
00:28:14,010 --> 00:28:17,470
Speaker 3: biblical background, I can't be the only person teaching. I

495
00:28:17,630 --> 00:28:21,130
Speaker 3: need local leaders. And so sharing leadership model actually makes

496
00:28:21,170 --> 00:28:24,929
Speaker 3: it so that mature leaders not only facilitate an environment

497
00:28:24,950 --> 00:28:28,370
Speaker 3: so that all the gift of whatever that work is,

498
00:28:28,750 --> 00:28:32,070
Speaker 3: is equipping all of the congregation and inviting the community

499
00:28:32,130 --> 00:28:35,340
Speaker 3: into it, And there are the people who are constantly

500
00:28:35,380 --> 00:28:38,970
Speaker 3: identifying who else has this gift that we can share

501
00:28:38,990 --> 00:28:42,550
Speaker 3: this equipping with.

502
00:28:43,770 --> 00:28:44,230
Speaker 2: It's interesting.

503
00:28:44,250 --> 00:28:46,700
Speaker 1: I mean, what you're saying, it reminds me of, I

504
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,500
Speaker 1: think it's Ron Heifetz's work, Leadership Above the Line, maybe.

505
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,900
Speaker 1: I can't remember the name of it. But anyway, he

506
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:57,220
Speaker 1: talks about the role of the leader. being less about

507
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: solving the problem and more about getting everyone to agree

508
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,580
Speaker 1: that there is a problem and what that problem actually is,

509
00:29:02,740 --> 00:29:06,340
Speaker 1: and then mobilizing them toward fixing that problem. And it

510
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,820
Speaker 1: just strikes me that what you're describing is akin to that,

511
00:29:09,900 --> 00:29:13,340
Speaker 1: not exactly like that, but certainly in that vein, that

512
00:29:13,380 --> 00:29:17,180
Speaker 1: the leader is not the end-all be-all solution. He's not

513
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,090
Speaker 1: the one, she's not the one who's going to keep

514
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:24,050
Speaker 1: the whole church going no matter what. it's this sort

515
00:29:24,070 --> 00:29:28,300
Speaker 1: of facilitative role that gets the whole congregation motivated and

516
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,100
Speaker 1: mobilized to do the work of the Lord in that

517
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,540
Speaker 1: local space, which I think is great.

518
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,370
Speaker 3: That's why we circle back to Ephesians 4, right? If

519
00:29:37,410 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 3: you're looking for what definition that is, Apostle Paul writes down,

520
00:29:41,700 --> 00:29:47,500
Speaker 3: like Christ appointed these five archetypes or types of leaders,

521
00:29:47,940 --> 00:29:50,780
Speaker 3: I think it really is, and I write to prove

522
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,290
Speaker 3: the point that it really is around what kinds of

523
00:29:53,370 --> 00:30:00,810
Speaker 3: environments of equipping do these five types of leadership sets provide.

524
00:30:01,030 --> 00:30:03,570
Speaker 3: But the whole point is, you know, if it's working

525
00:30:03,630 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 3: or not, because it's a congregation being equipped to do

526
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 3: the works of God for the benefit of the community

527
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 3: around them. It's not do the leadership set, do the

528
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 3: works of God on behalf of the congregation or on

529
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 3: behalf of the flourishing of the congregation. I think that

530
00:30:20,740 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 3: the contemporary church thinks that's the job, that that's the work.

531
00:30:24,060 --> 00:30:26,940
Speaker 3: I get paid to And I'm in this position so

532
00:30:26,980 --> 00:30:29,730
Speaker 3: that I do the works of God for the benefit

533
00:30:29,750 --> 00:30:32,430
Speaker 3: of my church, for the flourishing of my church. So

534
00:30:32,450 --> 00:30:35,390
Speaker 3: my church attendance grows or a budget grows or whatever.

535
00:30:35,430 --> 00:30:38,310
Speaker 3: And they're beautiful things like we need money. We need

536
00:30:38,370 --> 00:30:41,930
Speaker 3: people power. We need resources. All those things are we

537
00:30:42,030 --> 00:30:45,830
Speaker 3: are in need. Right. Again, it's a leadership mindset shift

538
00:30:46,150 --> 00:30:48,870
Speaker 3: to think that actually my role in my in this

539
00:30:48,910 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 3: leadership is not to do the works of service. It's

540
00:30:52,300 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 3: so that the entire congregation is equipped to do the

541
00:30:54,700 --> 00:30:58,890
Speaker 3: works of service of God. And the hallmark of if

542
00:30:58,930 --> 00:31:01,750
Speaker 3: that's happening or not is not if the church benefits,

543
00:31:02,170 --> 00:31:04,750
Speaker 3: is if the community that the church resides in is

544
00:31:04,850 --> 00:31:06,770
Speaker 3: also flourishing with the church.

545
00:31:08,090 --> 00:31:08,969
Speaker 2: It was fascinating.

546
00:31:09,070 --> 00:31:11,170
Speaker 1: I had a friend who was involved with some of

547
00:31:11,190 --> 00:31:13,150
Speaker 1: the mainline denominations back in.

548
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:14,980
Speaker 2: The 80s and 70s.

549
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,140
Speaker 1: And, you know, he sent me some of the assessments

550
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,380
Speaker 1: that they would give on an annual basis or quarterly basis,

551
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:26,469
Speaker 1: whatever they did. to the mainline denomination pastors. And they

552
00:31:26,510 --> 00:31:29,830
Speaker 1: were supposed to assess how their church was going. And

553
00:31:29,850 --> 00:31:32,110
Speaker 1: it had nothing to do with the total number of

554
00:31:32,150 --> 00:31:34,070
Speaker 1: baptisms you were getting and those kind of things.

555
00:31:34,210 --> 00:31:35,410
Speaker 2: I don't even think they were on there.

556
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: They were more like, are you seeing your people reach

557
00:31:39,540 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: out into their community and love their neighbor? It was

558
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: those kind of like qualitative questions that they were asking

559
00:31:45,220 --> 00:31:49,620
Speaker 1: pastors to reflect on to to help them understand how

560
00:31:49,700 --> 00:31:53,820
Speaker 1: successful their particular local congregation was being. And it just

561
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,100
Speaker 1: strikes me, I mean, when I read those sheets that

562
00:31:56,140 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: he gave me, I was like, wow, this is fantastic stuff. Like,

563
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,570
Speaker 1: we should be doing this now. And it strikes me

564
00:32:01,650 --> 00:32:05,950
Speaker 1: that as you're talking, that is largely what you're trying to,

565
00:32:06,410 --> 00:32:07,830
Speaker 1: that is at least part of what you're trying to

566
00:32:07,850 --> 00:32:11,290
Speaker 1: convey here, is that the effectiveness of the leader has

567
00:32:11,490 --> 00:32:17,380
Speaker 1: less to do with total growth, numeric growth, we might

568
00:32:17,420 --> 00:32:20,340
Speaker 1: say within a congregation and far more to do with

569
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,980
Speaker 1: how that growth actually happens, whether it's spiritual depth or

570
00:32:25,050 --> 00:32:29,050
Speaker 1: numeric growth, it's how that growth happens, not that it

571
00:32:29,110 --> 00:32:30,110
Speaker 1: happens per se.

572
00:32:30,290 --> 00:32:31,830
Speaker 2: Is that a fair distinction? Yeah.

573
00:32:32,110 --> 00:32:36,860
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think probably a leadership. And again, it sounds

574
00:32:36,910 --> 00:32:39,060
Speaker 3: cheeky that I'm going to like tether both of my books,

575
00:32:39,100 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 3: you know, but I think that, yeah, I think discipleship,

576
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,390
Speaker 3: if your congregation is, has more disciples who are living

577
00:32:47,710 --> 00:32:52,670
Speaker 3: out imitating Jesus, and you have qualitative and quantitative markers

578
00:32:52,910 --> 00:32:55,890
Speaker 3: that tell you that that is happening, you're probably doing

579
00:32:55,950 --> 00:33:00,530
Speaker 3: something right. It means that your leadership and the shared

580
00:33:00,550 --> 00:33:04,110
Speaker 3: leadership is focused on are the people of God being

581
00:33:04,210 --> 00:33:08,330
Speaker 3: equipped to imitate Jesus? If you're imitating Jesus, you're going

582
00:33:08,350 --> 00:33:10,730
Speaker 3: to be on mission. If you're imitating Jesus, you're going

583
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,459
Speaker 3: to really think about your character and how it impacts

584
00:33:13,540 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 3: other people around you. If you're imitating Jesus, whatever room

585
00:33:17,100 --> 00:33:20,180
Speaker 3: you're going into, it should feel a little bit more

586
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 3: like everybody in that room is experiencing the kingdom of God.

587
00:33:23,290 --> 00:33:26,489
Speaker 3: That's what imitating Jesus is, right? And so I'm not

588
00:33:26,550 --> 00:33:29,270
Speaker 3: expecting the leaders to do all of that all the time.

589
00:33:29,930 --> 00:33:33,010
Speaker 3: But the leader should expect that as the success of

590
00:33:33,050 --> 00:33:35,910
Speaker 3: my church grows or whatever, I can only say that

591
00:33:36,030 --> 00:33:40,150
Speaker 3: it is successful if the congregation is being discipled and

592
00:33:40,210 --> 00:33:44,650
Speaker 3: not just learning something. cool or new or being cared for?

593
00:33:44,850 --> 00:33:49,590
Speaker 3: Is the congregation actually imitating Jesus more and more and more?

594
00:33:50,590 --> 00:33:51,610
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's fascinating.

595
00:33:51,630 --> 00:33:54,070
Speaker 1: I think, and this is probably a false dichotomy, but

596
00:33:54,110 --> 00:33:55,990
Speaker 1: I think it'll be a decent enough example.

597
00:33:56,060 --> 00:33:58,100
Speaker 2: So I'll throw it out there. But if we look

598
00:33:58,120 --> 00:33:59,700
Speaker 2: at the growth of the early church.

599
00:33:59,540 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: In Acts, like we're enamored with how fast it grows

600
00:34:02,380 --> 00:34:04,740
Speaker 1: and the numeric growth and all the wonderful things that

601
00:34:04,780 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 1: they're doing and the spread of the gospel. But then

602
00:34:08,020 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: if you look at the embattled church in Revelations, What

603
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:16,850
Speaker 1: you realize is that sometimes growth isn't possible and that

604
00:34:17,250 --> 00:34:19,129
Speaker 1: what you're really trying to do is just hold back

605
00:34:19,170 --> 00:34:23,070
Speaker 1: the waters of the flood without, you know, losing your form.

606
00:34:24,090 --> 00:34:27,549
Speaker 1: And I think that what you're talking about there is

607
00:34:28,090 --> 00:34:33,090
Speaker 1: the sort of leadership that allows Christians to be faithful

608
00:34:33,170 --> 00:34:37,910
Speaker 1: in both environments and the fruits of that faithfulness are

609
00:34:37,950 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 1: different in both. One produces this sort of numeric growth

610
00:34:42,340 --> 00:34:44,690
Speaker 1: and new believers coming in and a love for neighbor

611
00:34:44,750 --> 00:34:47,310
Speaker 1: and all of those different things. The other is just

612
00:34:47,430 --> 00:34:52,009
Speaker 1: sheer resilience and survival and conviction and lack of compromise.

613
00:34:53,310 --> 00:34:55,870
Speaker 1: Those aren't two different types of leadership. They're a singular

614
00:34:55,890 --> 00:34:58,989
Speaker 1: type of leadership that is forming people into the image

615
00:34:59,030 --> 00:34:59,450
Speaker 1: of Christ.

616
00:35:00,550 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 3: Absolutely. And I think that's the Apostle Paul's point. Every

617
00:35:03,420 --> 00:35:05,500
Speaker 3: time that he's, I mean, even in Ephesians 4. Right.

618
00:35:06,190 --> 00:35:08,300
Speaker 3: In the book, I take the time to go through

619
00:35:08,430 --> 00:35:13,100
Speaker 3: other epistles on purpose because you want to have hyperlinks

620
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,380
Speaker 3: or shortcuts to know why does Apostle Paul use the

621
00:35:17,420 --> 00:35:21,140
Speaker 3: words and the terms that he uses, right? Because two

622
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,569
Speaker 3: first century Christians, immediately when he says a word that

623
00:35:25,630 --> 00:35:30,270
Speaker 3: references body or references a temple, they're thinking of something else, right?

624
00:35:30,510 --> 00:35:32,750
Speaker 3: Just like we should be. And so I think that

625
00:35:33,110 --> 00:35:38,049
Speaker 3: the church is meant to be the church in Acts

626
00:35:38,150 --> 00:35:40,330
Speaker 3: and the church in Revelations, you're kind of thinking about

627
00:35:40,610 --> 00:35:44,569
Speaker 3: they both are witnesses to the living Christ, you know,

628
00:35:44,730 --> 00:35:48,469
Speaker 3: and depending on the circumstance, it's what either draws people

629
00:35:48,489 --> 00:35:50,670
Speaker 3: or repels people. But at the end of the day,

630
00:35:50,690 --> 00:35:54,469
Speaker 3: you're trying to say that a community of Christ imitators

631
00:35:54,810 --> 00:35:57,380
Speaker 3: are going to make sure that people need to respond

632
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 3: to Jesus in one form or another, whether it's to

633
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 3: resist Jesus, Right. Or or to be compelled. Right. There's

634
00:36:05,100 --> 00:36:07,989
Speaker 3: a caring for one another and caring for the poor,

635
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:12,049
Speaker 3: caring for the community around them. Is that attractive to people? Right.

636
00:36:12,230 --> 00:36:14,870
Speaker 3: And it wasn't just teaching. Right. That's the whole point

637
00:36:14,930 --> 00:36:18,420
Speaker 3: about the story is it wasn't just the teaching that,

638
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,800
Speaker 3: you know, Peter's amazing one sermon that he did at

639
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 3: 3000 people like that wasn't it. But Luke didn't write

640
00:36:25,460 --> 00:36:27,620
Speaker 3: the book that way, right? So you're trying to think

641
00:36:27,700 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 3: through what was the compelling central key piece around it.

642
00:36:33,050 --> 00:36:35,210
Speaker 3: The body of Christ is meant to be either a

643
00:36:35,270 --> 00:36:39,870
Speaker 3: resistance to empire, current evidences of empire today, like you

644
00:36:39,930 --> 00:36:43,310
Speaker 3: see in a future church in Revelations, right? But it's

645
00:36:43,390 --> 00:36:46,980
Speaker 3: also supposed to be a center of care where all

646
00:36:47,060 --> 00:36:51,299
Speaker 3: are invited, all are welcome. It doesn't matter. There's no leftovers.

647
00:36:51,590 --> 00:36:54,930
Speaker 3: There's no ostracize in the kingdom of God, right? That

648
00:36:54,969 --> 00:36:58,890
Speaker 3: could be really, really repelling for people, or it could

649
00:36:58,930 --> 00:37:00,770
Speaker 3: be something where like, oh my gosh, this is the

650
00:37:00,790 --> 00:37:04,029
Speaker 3: kind of community I've longed for all my life, right?

651
00:37:04,290 --> 00:37:07,050
Speaker 3: But if the church isn't equipped to be that kind

652
00:37:07,110 --> 00:37:11,790
Speaker 3: of community, if they're not equipped to imitate Jesus, not personally,

653
00:37:12,130 --> 00:37:16,700
Speaker 3: but communally, together, collectively, then there isn't any chance at

654
00:37:16,739 --> 00:37:21,339
Speaker 3: being a source of resistance or a source of care. Yeah.

655
00:37:21,860 --> 00:37:23,219
Speaker 2: They're both lacking there.

656
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: We could go a million different ways with this, but

657
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:28,380
Speaker 1: I know we're kind of running short on time. And

658
00:37:28,420 --> 00:37:32,219
Speaker 1: so I'll get this sort of last question in. If

659
00:37:32,260 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: you had to think of just a couple of things

660
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,330
Speaker 1: that you would suggest to churches to sort of start

661
00:37:37,390 --> 00:37:41,250
Speaker 1: thinking about shared leadership, how do you even start to

662
00:37:41,290 --> 00:37:45,790
Speaker 1: take steps toward what would be a very radical shift,

663
00:37:45,850 --> 00:37:48,649
Speaker 1: I think, for a lot of churches and congregations?

664
00:37:49,270 --> 00:37:50,250
Speaker 2: How would you counsel them?

665
00:37:51,340 --> 00:37:53,620
Speaker 3: Yeah, I will always say, just like I do for

666
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:58,450
Speaker 3: Centering Discipleship stuff, don't change anything. Don't change anything now.

667
00:37:58,590 --> 00:38:01,489
Speaker 3: And don't blame the people that God has given you

668
00:38:01,530 --> 00:38:03,870
Speaker 3: to lead and love now. Please don't do those kinds

669
00:38:03,910 --> 00:38:06,590
Speaker 3: of things, right? The first take is like, do a

670
00:38:06,690 --> 00:38:10,500
Speaker 3: good assessment. You can do it. If you're a senior pastor,

671
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,140
Speaker 3: do it for yourself, but do it honestly. Because you

672
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 3: know what? The thing about being a senior pastor, and

673
00:38:16,460 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 3: I have been there, done that, the buck does stop

674
00:38:19,460 --> 00:38:21,299
Speaker 3: with you. And most of the time I start with,

675
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,049
Speaker 3: no matter what has happened, this is still my fault.

676
00:38:24,610 --> 00:38:26,189
Speaker 3: You know what I mean? Like that is a very

677
00:38:26,270 --> 00:38:29,689
Speaker 3: humble approach to leadership, right? But I say the first

678
00:38:29,750 --> 00:38:32,410
Speaker 3: step is just take a humble assessment of where things

679
00:38:32,450 --> 00:38:34,980
Speaker 3: are at. you can ask questions like, do we actually

680
00:38:35,020 --> 00:38:38,180
Speaker 3: have disciples within our congregation? And how do I know that?

681
00:38:38,489 --> 00:38:40,850
Speaker 3: That's one piece. And the next thing is like, oh,

682
00:38:40,950 --> 00:38:43,230
Speaker 3: if I don't have that many, what do they need

683
00:38:43,290 --> 00:38:46,250
Speaker 3: to be equipped in? And if you're only thinking that

684
00:38:46,290 --> 00:38:49,320
Speaker 3: you're equipped in through a worship service, then you're probably

685
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,540
Speaker 3: not sharing leadership. So you kind of have to start

686
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,620
Speaker 3: thinking through, oh my goodness, how do the congregation become

687
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 3: more missional? How do they care and know their neighbors more?

688
00:38:59,070 --> 00:39:01,290
Speaker 3: Are they equipped in knowing how to share the gospel?

689
00:39:01,469 --> 00:39:03,770
Speaker 3: Do they even know what the gospel is, right? I

690
00:39:03,790 --> 00:39:06,950
Speaker 3: think a starting point is to name the question around,

691
00:39:07,590 --> 00:39:11,149
Speaker 3: is my congregation discipled? Most of the time it's no,

692
00:39:11,270 --> 00:39:16,030
Speaker 3: if you're really being honest. Where are there equipping gaps?

693
00:39:16,430 --> 00:39:19,610
Speaker 3: And then who can I bring on board to share

694
00:39:19,630 --> 00:39:23,430
Speaker 3: this equipping with me? Most of the book is really

695
00:39:23,469 --> 00:39:25,710
Speaker 3: trying to, you know, the, the, the last portion of

696
00:39:25,770 --> 00:39:28,290
Speaker 3: it is, is becoming very, very practical around how to

697
00:39:28,330 --> 00:39:30,830
Speaker 3: do structuring, identifying leaders, you know, those kinds of things.

698
00:39:31,630 --> 00:39:34,049
Speaker 3: But if you have a starting point, it really is.

699
00:39:34,070 --> 00:39:38,570
Speaker 3: Can you do an honest assessment around discipleship within your church?

700
00:39:39,510 --> 00:39:41,510
Speaker 1: When I found that, that part of the book really

701
00:39:41,550 --> 00:39:47,220
Speaker 1: interesting because I think that it, what it helped me

702
00:39:47,340 --> 00:39:52,700
Speaker 1: think past was structure. So like I'm not led a church,

703
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:54,910
Speaker 1: so I've never been a pastor, but I've been in

704
00:39:54,950 --> 00:39:58,850
Speaker 1: plenty of churches and sort of helped in those contexts.

705
00:39:58,950 --> 00:40:01,450
Speaker 1: And often what I hear from the pastors that I've

706
00:40:01,469 --> 00:40:06,540
Speaker 1: worked with is, well, we have small groups. And it's like, well,

707
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: but that's sort of the program of the structure. But

708
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: you still have to ask the further question, are they working?

709
00:40:13,500 --> 00:40:17,049
Speaker 1: You know, and some of them, I remember one articulated

710
00:40:17,070 --> 00:40:20,060
Speaker 1: the idea that He was just so frustrated that people

711
00:40:20,100 --> 00:40:23,460
Speaker 1: weren't growing. You know, they weren't being discipled. And yet

712
00:40:23,500 --> 00:40:26,660
Speaker 1: he had this small group thing. And so his solution was, well,

713
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:28,710
Speaker 1: we need something in addition to small groups.

714
00:40:29,670 --> 00:40:31,950
Speaker 2: And I'm like, well, that's a lot of work, man.

715
00:40:32,090 --> 00:40:37,089
Speaker 1: Like, you know, and so it just takes, I think,

716
00:40:38,050 --> 00:40:42,489
Speaker 1: your approach in those last few chapters to I think

717
00:40:42,610 --> 00:40:44,910
Speaker 1: frames the questions out in such a way that you

718
00:40:44,950 --> 00:40:47,620
Speaker 1: wouldn't necessarily leap to, Oh, okay. I got to start

719
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: a discipleship program now. Or, Oh yeah, I got to,

720
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 1: I got to pull in three more leaders and give

721
00:40:52,380 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: them titles.

722
00:40:53,739 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 3: Right.

723
00:40:54,100 --> 00:40:55,320
Speaker 2: Like none of that happens.

724
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 1: It's just sort of like a, a calmer, more deliberate

725
00:40:59,739 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: approach to thinking about where the gaps are and then

726
00:41:03,260 --> 00:41:04,110
Speaker 1: maybe how to fill them.

727
00:41:05,430 --> 00:41:08,150
Speaker 3: Yeah. I will, I will say that the uniqueness in

728
00:41:08,190 --> 00:41:12,820
Speaker 3: Hawaii is that for whatever reason, And probably because it

729
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 3: does have a history, a recent history of colonization, right,

730
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 3: and oppression. And so there is a suspicion against Christianity.

731
00:41:20,860 --> 00:41:26,580
Speaker 3: But there's this weird thing where it's saturated with a

732
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:32,100
Speaker 3: lot of church leaders, planters, senior leaders from outside the community.

733
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,270
Speaker 3: And there are so much fewer local leaders, right? And

734
00:41:35,370 --> 00:41:37,690
Speaker 3: when I was doing, before I started my second church plan,

735
00:41:37,710 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 3: I'm thinking through this, this is like, you know, eight

736
00:41:39,300 --> 00:41:42,540
Speaker 3: years ago now. And I'm thinking through why is that? Oh,

737
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 3: it's because there hasn't ever been a recognition or permission

738
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,669
Speaker 3: giving that local leaders can lead. But you know what?

739
00:41:49,690 --> 00:41:53,790
Speaker 3: People probably lead differently than you, you know?

740
00:41:54,500 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 4: When we're doing for the senior pastor, when we're doing

741
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,460
Speaker 4: that humble assessment work of kind of thinking through, is

742
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,950
Speaker 4: this working, whatever, and then get to the point around

743
00:42:03,340 --> 00:42:05,149
Speaker 4: who do I need to share leadership with?

744
00:42:05,489 --> 00:42:11,529
Speaker 3: If your criteria for leadership is not reassessed under, are

745
00:42:11,550 --> 00:42:14,850
Speaker 3: they first an imitator of Jesus? Because man, you're putting

746
00:42:14,870 --> 00:42:19,370
Speaker 3: them into a position where they're going to start modeling things, right?

747
00:42:19,410 --> 00:42:22,290
Speaker 3: That is really, really important. Are they people who actually

748
00:42:22,410 --> 00:42:25,859
Speaker 3: are humble, hopeful people? If you don't have that kind

749
00:42:25,890 --> 00:42:30,460
Speaker 3: of criteria set, you're just going to constantly reproduce that person, right?

750
00:42:30,820 --> 00:42:33,510
Speaker 3: Because the leadership has a lot of influence, right? And

751
00:42:33,530 --> 00:42:35,750
Speaker 3: then the third thing to kind of consider is, are

752
00:42:35,770 --> 00:42:38,430
Speaker 3: they going to bring in something that you don't have?

753
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,140
Speaker 3: You know what I mean? Is there a gap that

754
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,490
Speaker 3: you can honestly say that I have a gap in this?

755
00:42:44,790 --> 00:42:47,150
Speaker 3: And that's why I rely on this person and we

756
00:42:47,250 --> 00:42:52,740
Speaker 3: share this work together. I don't think that APES models

757
00:42:52,780 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 3: and tools are the best and only tool to use.

758
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,660
Speaker 3: But I do think that, again, because it is scripturally based,

759
00:42:58,739 --> 00:43:02,819
Speaker 3: I think that the Apostle Paul offers something that around

760
00:43:02,860 --> 00:43:05,890
Speaker 3: the kinds of leaders that it helps us get categories around.

761
00:43:06,210 --> 00:43:10,250
Speaker 3: I may not be 100% gifted in Shepard. I'm not

762
00:43:10,310 --> 00:43:13,490
Speaker 3: Wired Shepard, FYI, listeners, viewers. I'm just not.

763
00:43:14,110 --> 00:43:14,430
Speaker 2: I'm not.

764
00:43:14,510 --> 00:43:17,050
Speaker 3: I'm apostolic. I love to start new things, new initiatives,

765
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 3: take new territory, all those kinds of stuff. I love

766
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 3: multiplying and sending. But if I'm the only kind of

767
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 3: leader doing that all the time, I would never survive

768
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,020
Speaker 3: in Hawaii because it feels so, so brash. If it

769
00:43:29,060 --> 00:43:31,340
Speaker 3: was just me leading, it would not work in Hawaii.

770
00:43:32,460 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 3: But if it's just me leading, it probably wouldn't also

771
00:43:35,620 --> 00:43:38,730
Speaker 3: work in Philadelphia. It would not be sustainable, this kind

772
00:43:38,770 --> 00:43:42,930
Speaker 3: of work. Because people need healing and care. People need

773
00:43:43,370 --> 00:43:47,370
Speaker 3: to experience welcome. People need to experience a love and

774
00:43:47,550 --> 00:43:52,100
Speaker 3: an emotional impulse for freedom and liberation. People need to

775
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 3: know that they can also have full access to the

776
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,890
Speaker 3: word of God. for themselves and not rely on some

777
00:43:57,989 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 3: other higher level leader to provide it. Right. You need

778
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 3: all of these things so that there's an invitation for

779
00:44:03,980 --> 00:44:06,060
Speaker 3: flourishing for both the church and the community.

780
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

781
00:44:07,940 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 1: No, it's fascinating to think through. I, I really appreciated

782
00:44:12,340 --> 00:44:14,770
Speaker 1: the book. I think it was sort of a breath

783
00:44:14,810 --> 00:44:17,089
Speaker 1: of fresh air. I mean, I haven't done leadership stuff

784
00:44:17,130 --> 00:44:19,270
Speaker 1: in a while. Since I left higher ed, I haven't

785
00:44:19,390 --> 00:44:21,609
Speaker 1: really thought too much about leadership, although I do teach

786
00:44:21,630 --> 00:44:23,270
Speaker 1: a class on leadership. So I guess maybe I should

787
00:44:23,290 --> 00:44:26,790
Speaker 1: think about it a little bit more. But no, I

788
00:44:26,830 --> 00:44:28,009
Speaker 1: really did appreciate the book.

789
00:44:28,150 --> 00:44:30,490
Speaker 2: And I think you're right. I think there's something.

790
00:44:30,230 --> 00:44:35,330
Speaker 1: To the shared leadership conversation that needs to start happening,

791
00:44:35,370 --> 00:44:37,910
Speaker 1: at least in churches. They need to start sort of

792
00:44:37,950 --> 00:44:42,049
Speaker 1: thinking and assessing and trying to understand Why is it

793
00:44:42,090 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 1: that we're hamstringing the body of Christ by just having

794
00:44:45,780 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 1: an apostle in charge or just having a teacher in

795
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 1: charge or just having a, you know, whatever have you?

796
00:44:51,300 --> 00:44:54,470
Speaker 1: And how can we really pull together a fuller body

797
00:44:54,710 --> 00:44:57,850
Speaker 1: of people who are capable then of shaping disciples for

798
00:44:57,890 --> 00:44:58,570
Speaker 1: Jesus Christ?

799
00:44:59,150 --> 00:45:00,410
Speaker 3: Well said.

800
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,300
Speaker 1: Well, this has been a fascinating conversation. I really appreciate

801
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,660
Speaker 1: you being back on the show. This was great. And

802
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:09,839
Speaker 1: like I said, I love the book, so I would

803
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,780
Speaker 1: totally recommend it to all the listeners. The title, again,

804
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 1: is You Were.

805
00:45:15,530 --> 00:45:18,790
Speaker 2: Never Meant to Lead Alone by M.K. Strasser.

806
00:45:18,810 --> 00:45:22,750
Speaker 1: There will be a link to the book on IVP's website.

807
00:45:23,450 --> 00:45:25,890
Speaker 1: In the show description, they give us a 20% discount.

808
00:45:26,469 --> 00:45:28,870
Speaker 1: And so I would encourage you to go there, get

809
00:45:28,890 --> 00:45:32,150
Speaker 1: the book for 20% off, order it from IVP's website.

810
00:45:32,170 --> 00:45:34,450
Speaker 1: There's great folks over there. And this has just been

811
00:45:34,469 --> 00:45:36,750
Speaker 1: a pleasure talking to you. And so I really appreciate it.

812
00:45:36,770 --> 00:45:37,509
Speaker 1: Thank you for being here.

813
00:45:38,260 --> 00:45:39,580
Speaker 3: Likewise, James. Thanks so much.

814
00:45:40,580 --> 00:45:42,380
Speaker 2: All right, everybody, take care. And we'll see you on

815
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: the next episode of Thinking Christian.

816
00:45:44,570 --> 00:45:46,049
Speaker 1: Just want to take a second to thank the team

817
00:45:46,110 --> 00:45:48,489
Speaker 1: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the

818
00:45:48,550 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find

819
00:45:52,219 --> 00:45:55,609
Speaker 1: dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got

820
00:45:55,650 --> 00:45:58,469
Speaker 1: shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.