1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Life audio. 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 2: When we hold onto that bitterness that keeps us from 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 2: hearing God, that keeps us from experiencing His joy, that 4 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 2: keeps us from experiencing peace, because our heart becomes heartened. 5 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 3: Welcome to the Faith Over Fear podcast, where we share 6 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 3: powerful truths to quiet anxiety and fear big and small. 7 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 3: I'm Carol McCracken. Today we're wrapping up our relational piece series, 8 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 3: Loving Others Without Losing Yourself. Over the past several weeks, 9 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 3: we've talked about in difficult relationships, boundaries, stuck relationships, responding 10 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:43,319 Speaker 3: instead of reacting, and how to remain emotionally healthy when 11 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 3: relationships become complicated. But there's one topic that we can't 12 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 3: ignore if we truly want peace. Forgiveness. Now, before you 13 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 3: hit the skip button, stay with us, because today isn't 14 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 3: about excusing what happened. It's not pretending a day her, 15 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:05,199 Speaker 3: it's not becoming someone else's doormat. It's about what happens 16 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 3: inside of us when we carry her longer than God intended. 17 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 3: So if you've ever thought something like they don't deserve 18 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 3: my forgiveness, or if I forgive them, they'll just hurt 19 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 3: me again, or I'm still angry, so I must not 20 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,320 Speaker 3: have forgiven. Then this conversation is for you. Joining me 21 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 3: today is doctor Michelle Bangston again. Yes, we love having 22 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 3: her on, particularly with this series, and she's a board 23 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 3: certified clinical neuropsychologist with more than twenty years of clinical experience. 24 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 3: She's a best selling author, she's a speaker, and she 25 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 3: is a fellow Life audio podcaster. Michelle, welcome back to 26 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 3: Faith over Fear. 27 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: Well, thanks for having me back, Carol. 28 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 2: You know we always have such good, in depth conversation 29 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 2: I love them. Praying that this one will touch the 30 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 2: hearts of your listeners as well. 31 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 3: Oh, thank you for that. I don't believe in divorce, 32 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 3: but I divorced because we had child with special needs 33 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 3: and that was a crazy situation that was a lot 34 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 3: of pressure, and so my husband and I both agreed 35 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 3: to divorce. So here I am in this situation. It 36 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 3: was a bitter divorce. I was angry, he felt misunderstood, betrayed. 37 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 3: He felt the same way. Of course, we later found out, 38 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 3: but after ten years we forgave. It was totally a 39 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 3: god thing. We couldn't have done it ourselves. But after 40 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 3: ten years we reconciled and we remarried. Now that doesn't 41 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 3: happen all the time, and all right, no, it's a 42 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 3: tough topic. I'm just going to ask you, why do 43 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 3: you think so many people resist conversations about forgiveness. 44 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,959 Speaker 2: In part, I think it's because we hurt, We want 45 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,399 Speaker 2: to be seen, we want to be validated, we want 46 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 2: to be heard, and talking about forgiveness to some degree 47 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 2: reopen some of the wounds that haven't been healed yet. 48 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 2: But the other reason why I think we tend to 49 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 2: resist those conversations about forgiveness is because, depending on what 50 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 2: your faith background was when you were being brought up, 51 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 2: or what kind of teaching you're hearing now, sometimes we 52 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 2: have some misconceptions about forgiveness. 53 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:20,359 Speaker 3: Isn't that interesting? That's so true. Many people know they 54 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 3: should forgive, you know, depending on that faith background, with 55 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 3: or without it, but they don't necessarily want to. Why 56 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 3: is that? 57 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: Do you think in our brain? 58 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 2: If you let me go to the neuroscience, sure, height 59 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: of it, just for a second. Our brain is constantly 60 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 2: searching for safety. But when we know that we should 61 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 2: forgive but we don't want to, it's generally because we 62 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 2: hurt so bad and we want someone to recognize and 63 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 2: validate that hurt. But maybe if I can be so bold, 64 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 2: sometimes there's a little part of us that wants the 65 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 2: effect to hurt as badly as they hurt us. And 66 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 2: I think that's human. I'm not excusing it, but it's human. 67 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: We hurt. 68 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 2: I want you to hurt because you hurt me. 69 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a little convicting. I'm afraid that's like, oh wow, 70 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 3: when you get right down to it. 71 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 1: So are you. 72 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 3: Saying then that if I've got some bitterness, is that 73 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 3: kind of self protection? 74 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 2: It's exactly self protection, because it's holding our heart a 75 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 2: little away from our chest and it's saying I'm not 76 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 2: gonna let you hurt me like that. 77 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: Again. 78 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,799 Speaker 2: The problem is, and it's a cliche I'm sure many 79 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 2: of your listeners have heard, but it's like drinking poison 80 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 2: and expecting that it's gonna kill the other person. Bitterness 81 00:04:53,160 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 2: doesn't work that way. Bitterness hardens our heart towards future relationsationships. 82 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 2: And what happens, Carol, when we hold on to bitterness 83 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 2: and resentment is that our brain gets stuck in a 84 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 2: feedback loop and we just keep replaying what happened, what 85 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 2: didn't happen, what was said, what we wish we had said, 86 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 2: and what you focus on grows. So if that's what 87 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 2: you're focusing on in your mind, that bitterness and resentment 88 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 2: is going to not only grow, but what it does 89 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 2: is it heightens your nervous system to be on alert 90 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 2: for the next attack, and that can result in health conditions, 91 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 2: mental health conditions, emotional dysregulation. It's not hurting the other person. 92 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 2: We think it's a form of self protection, but it's 93 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 2: actually a form of self harm. 94 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 3: Wow, so that gets in the way. Okay, So you 95 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 3: talked earlier about faith. I think, regardless of our faith, 96 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 3: condition and forgiveness is hard. It's just hard to talk about. 97 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 3: But particularly in Christian circles, what do you think the 98 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 3: biggest misconception Christians have about forgiveness. 99 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 2: I think the biggest misconception that people have is that 100 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 2: they think forgiveness equals reconciliation. 101 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 3: Okay, and that is. 102 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: Often not the case. 103 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 2: It may happen, and if it does, wonderful and it's 104 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 2: a beautiful thing. But forgiveness and reconciliation are two different things. 105 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:35,840 Speaker 2: Forgiveness is really making the decision that we're going to 106 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 2: release the debt for the offense that has been done, 107 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 2: whereas reconciliation is the process of rebuilding trust and relationship, 108 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 2: and it requires repentance, change, and mutual effort. So when 109 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 2: we forgive, we have no control over the response of 110 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 2: the other person. But if the other person wants record conciliation, 111 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 2: it's a two way process and it involves both of us. 112 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 3: It's interesting that you say that because I lived that, 113 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 3: I learned the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation because I 114 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 3: forgave because God helped me do it. I couldn't do 115 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 3: it myself, and then that led to a. 116 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 2: Reconciliation, and what a beautiful testimony of what God can 117 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 2: do in repentant hearts. But God's command to forgive is 118 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 2: not dependent on the other person's response. 119 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: That's it. 120 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 3: That's one hundred percent. My forgiveness came regardless of what happened. 121 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 3: And again, that wasn't a Carol thing. It's some bitterness, 122 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 3: It was God thing. 123 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 2: You had asked about misconceptions that Christians often have about forgiveness, 124 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 2: So I think it's important to touch on a couple 125 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 2: other things. It is not reconciliation, although if God makes 126 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 2: a way, reconciliation may be possible. But forgiveness is not 127 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 2: pretending the hurt didn't happen. 128 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 3: That's big. 129 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 2: And forgiveness is not trusting someone who remains unsafe. 130 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 3: Ooh, I like that. Talk more about that. 131 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 2: Let's say you're in a relationship where the other person 132 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 2: is physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually abusive. Okay, God calls us 133 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 2: to forgive, but he doesn't necessarily call us to remain 134 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 2: in an unsafe environment. We can forgive, but that doesn't 135 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 2: necessarily mean we're going to open our heart and trust 136 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 2: them again. 137 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 3: Well, there's no evidence to do that. It's safety. Just 138 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 3: circled around that word safety that you mentioned. It's not 139 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 3: safe to reconcile with that is it. 140 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 2: It's not unless you see true behavioral change. And even 141 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 2: then I would seek the counsel of others to see 142 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 2: if they're seeing what you're seeing. Because forgiveness is also 143 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 2: not continuing to allow mistreatment. That's great, we forgive the behavior, 144 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 2: but we're not going to continue to allow it. And 145 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 2: forgiveness doesn't eliminate consequences. 146 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,079 Speaker 1: There are consequences for our behavior. 147 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 2: And then the other thing, Carol, is that forgiveness doesn't 148 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 2: necessarily mean you're going to restore the relationship. It just 149 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 2: means you make the decision to release the debt and 150 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 2: then trust God to enact his justice in the situation, 151 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 2: rather than you wanting to be the one to make 152 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 2: sure justice happens. 153 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 3: Wow, that's hard. Sometimes speaks a little bit more about 154 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 3: you talk about releasing the debt. What does that mean 155 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 3: to you? 156 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:07,719 Speaker 2: So if someone has done something inappropriate to me, Okay, 157 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 2: releasing the debt means I'm going to forgive them for that. 158 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 2: But just as we mentioned a second ago, there are 159 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 2: consequences for behaviors, and so if they lie to me, 160 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 2: not necessarily going to trust them to tell. 161 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: Me the truth. There you go and abusive. 162 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 2: I'm not going to trust that they've all of a 163 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 2: sudden become a safe place. But I'm going to allow 164 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 2: God's perfect justice to enact the consequences that he deems 165 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 2: appropriate for them. I'm not going to hold on to 166 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 2: that anymore and try to control that situation. 167 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 3: Perfect answer. It's always like, you know, you feel like 168 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 3: somebody's got to pay because if you use an example, 169 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 3: say somebody takes a baseball, they're an athlete, they're usually 170 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 3: pretty good, but it accidentally goes through somebody's window. Okay, 171 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 3: there's damage, and so say you were the teenager that 172 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 3: threw that, you can say I'm really sorry and you 173 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 3: can be forgiven. But to your consequence point, there's still damage. 174 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 3: So who's going to pay for that damage? Let's release 175 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 3: the debt. So that was a good way to get 176 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 3: to it. So this is huge. I think for our 177 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 3: listeners that are dealing with divorce, betrayal, abuse, or with estrangement, 178 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 3: forgiveness can happen even if reconciliation never does. What would 179 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 3: you say to somebody whose bitterness comes from divorce or betrayal. 180 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 2: I'd first say, I'm very sorry that you've gone through that, 181 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 2: and I want you to know that you're seen and 182 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 2: that you're heard. And then I recognize those are painful situations. 183 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 2: I haven't been through a divorce, but I have been 184 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 2: through a betrayal and it's crushing, yes, But I also 185 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 2: know that what crushes your heart hurts God's heart. 186 00:11:58,120 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: Yes, And God's. 187 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 2: Desire is to bring you comfort and to be compassionate 188 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 2: towards you and to bring healing for you. So I 189 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:12,559 Speaker 2: encourage you, despite the pain, to do as God commanded 190 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 2: and to forgive. But this isn't rarely a one and 191 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 2: done situation. This is often a process, and we may 192 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 2: get into that a little later, but it means making 193 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,839 Speaker 2: the choice. And then I would go so far as 194 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 2: to say, pray for your enemies, because that does a 195 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 2: deep heart work in you. I remember when I went 196 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 2: through a period of betrayal, Carol. It was hard, it 197 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 2: crushed my heart, and I asked God to search my 198 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 2: heart to show me if there was any wicked way 199 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 2: within me. And I saw an image, and that was 200 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,719 Speaker 2: of him sitting me at a table, and I remembered 201 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 2: the verse from Psalm twenty three to five, You prepare 202 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 2: a table for me in the presence of my enemies. 203 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 2: God was esteeming me, and in that moment I sensed 204 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,079 Speaker 2: him saying, this is not about you. This is about 205 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 2: the other person. But I want you to pray for them. Wow, 206 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 2: Pray that they would hear my voice. Pray that they 207 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 2: would be sensitive to my spirit because you sense my spirit. 208 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 2: But that's what they need, and that's where that betrayal 209 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 2: comes from, out of their own hurts. 210 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, it hurt me. 211 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 2: But in that moment I was able to say, oh, 212 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 2: but they're dealing with a lot of pain too. I 213 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 2: just happened to be the one that they took it 214 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 2: out on. Is it easy to pray for your enemies? 215 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 2: Absolutely not. That was the last thing I wanted to do. 216 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 2: I'm very honest. I did not want to. I did 217 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 2: it because God commands us too, and part of my 218 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,839 Speaker 2: prayer is, Lord, this doesn't feel fair, but I am 219 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 2: going to do what you asked me to do. I'm 220 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 2: going to be obedient to do what I know you 221 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 2: want me to do in this situation. 222 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 3: And there are consequences. That's exactly right. Every day, How 223 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 3: do we forgive without reopening doors that God might be 224 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 3: asking us to keep closed. 225 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,239 Speaker 2: That's a good question because I think that's very important 226 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 2: because for some personality types, we want to forgive and 227 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 2: then rush to open the door. We want things back, 228 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 2: and we need to recognize that sometimes relationships are for 229 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 2: a season. Jennifer and I talked about this on a 230 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 2: different episode. God may be removing someone from your life 231 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 2: to protect you. But to your question about how do 232 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 2: we forgive without reopening the doors that God might want 233 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 2: us to keep closed, is to recognize that forgiveness is 234 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 2: an act. We choose to forgive we pray, and we 235 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 2: tell God and forgiving so and so, or help me 236 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 2: forgive so and so, And we recognize that forgiveness is 237 00:14:55,920 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 2: what happens in our heart as we release that bitterness, 238 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 2: that resentment and surrender to God's will and God's way. 239 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 2: We can remain open if God decides to reopen that door, 240 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 2: but we don't keep going back and knocking on it 241 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 2: and trying to pry it open. God has closed that door. 242 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 2: There's the reason for it. And if we keep trying 243 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 2: to pry it open because we think we know best, 244 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 2: we will have to deal with consequences. And that process 245 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 2: of forgiving even when God's closing the door is to 246 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 2: remember Ephesians four thirty two reminds us to be kind 247 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 2: to one another, ten hearted and giving is one another, 248 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 2: as God forgave you. The hard part for me when 249 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 2: I had to do that, Carol, was to remain tender hearted, 250 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 2: as it hurts so bad, and I could feel my 251 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 2: heart getting hardened. That def only hurts me. So remain 252 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 2: tender hearted in your prayers towards the other person, and. 253 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 3: God can help too. Sometimes I take on things and 254 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 3: try to power through and think I have to do 255 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 3: it all. It is so freeing to realize, God, help 256 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 3: me with this. I can't do it myself. I cannot forgive. Lord, 257 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 3: I need you. It's amazing what he can do. 258 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 2: And that's the first part of forgiveness, I think, is 259 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 2: to acknowledge Lord, this is really hard. God, if I'm 260 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 2: being honest with you, as if you didn't know what 261 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 2: I'm already thinking. I don't really want to forgive the 262 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 2: other person. But Lord, help me to forgive. I'm choosing 263 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 2: to make that choice to forgive. And it may take 264 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 2: a while before your emotions catch up. 265 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: And that's O kidding. 266 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 3: It's a process. You'd love to go, Okay, I did 267 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 3: all the hard work. I forgave, and everything should be done. 268 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 3: But it comes to what happens. 269 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 2: A memory crops up, an anniversary crops up. You're talking 270 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 2: with someone else and they mentioned the other person, and 271 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 2: so all of a sudden, all those memories come back. 272 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 2: Chances are, if you feel yourself getting a little prickly, 273 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 2: it's another opportunity to say, Lord, I thought I dodn't 274 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 2: with that. All right, I'm choosing again to forgive the 275 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 2: hurt that was inflicted. 276 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: I've had to do that many times. 277 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 2: God is so gracious, Caroll, You and I both know 278 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:14,959 Speaker 2: this that when God does his healing, it's almost like 279 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 2: an onion where he. 280 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: Heals the outer layer. 281 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and he gives us a chance to live in 282 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 2: it for a while and practice it. 283 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: And then he'll peel away the next layer and we. 284 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 2: Go, oh, I didn't know that was there. Hell's that 285 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 2: And we have to practice it and we have to 286 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 2: live with it. And then he big thing took precedence. 287 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 3: Well, like the freedom in that is that when you 288 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 3: have finally forgiven, though it was a long and arduous process, 289 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 3: there's freedom. You have finally arrived at freedom. You're not 290 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 3: in that prison of unforgiveness anymore. And it's so beautiful, 291 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 3: it really is, and freeing. If you invest in it, 292 00:17:55,160 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 3: it pays off. Okay. So with all that, so we're 293 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,360 Speaker 3: talking human to human. How does bitterness affect our relationship 294 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 3: with God? 295 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 2: I think that goes back to that Ephesians four thirty two, 296 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 2: to be kind to one another, tender hearted, forgiving one 297 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 2: another as God forgave you. When we hold onto that 298 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:20,880 Speaker 2: bitterness that keeps us from hearing God, that keeps us 299 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:27,479 Speaker 2: from experiencing His joy, that keeps us from experiencing peace 300 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 2: because our heart becomes hardened, and God wants our heart 301 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 2: to remain tender hearted towards his other children and himself. 302 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 2: So when we hold onto that bitterness, it affects us 303 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 2: in so many ways that we don't even realize. You know, 304 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 2: we can get to the point where we start going 305 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 2: I used to be able to hear God. Now I 306 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 2: don't even hear him anymore, Like. 307 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: I'm still there. 308 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 2: And that's when I think we need to take an 309 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 2: inventory of what has begun to harden our heart to 310 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 2: make us more difficult to hear from Him. Are we 311 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 2: spending as much time in the word? Are we praying 312 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 2: as much? Because sometimes when we're hurt, we can even 313 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 2: take that hurt out on God. We can be mad 314 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 2: at God, like you could have prevented this, Why didn't 315 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 2: you prevent this? 316 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 3: Yeah? 317 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 2: And so I think it's important that when we start 318 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 2: feeling that way, that we ask the Holy Spirit to 319 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 2: break open that hard crust and to renew that tender 320 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 2: heart towards him. 321 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 3: I think that's beautiful. That signs to look forward to 322 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 3: when we're stuck in a relationship. How do we honestly 323 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 3: evaluate our own part without excusing the other person's behavior. 324 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: Oh boy, is that hard? 325 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, it's hard because scripture says that our heart 326 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 2: is deceptive above all. Else, I'm relying on my own 327 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 2: heart to say, well, my part in my relationship, I'm 328 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 2: probably going to minimize it. But that's where I think 329 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 2: about when Jesus said you need to take the log 330 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 2: out of your own eye before his start pointing to 331 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 2: those people's eyes. And Carol, that's hard because it requires 332 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 2: being vulnerable and listening for the Holy Spirit's conviction. We've 333 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 2: been talking about difficult relationships on this series of yours, 334 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 2: and sometimes early difficult relationships can create the pathway from 335 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 2: which we receive future interactions. So if we were raised 336 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 2: in a really critical home, right probably going to interpret 337 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 2: even neutral interactions as critical and that way. So my 338 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 2: first suggestion is to pray about it, ask the Holy 339 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 2: Spirit to search our hearts. And I'm so grateful because 340 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 2: he offers conviction as a gift, as a gift to 341 00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 2: keep our relationship open with him, the same as condemnation. Right, 342 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,919 Speaker 2: the enemy condemns, and that's sometimes the voice that we 343 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 2: hear much louder than anything else. Well, if you done this, 344 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 2: This never would have happened. There's a fine line though, 345 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 2: between condemnation and conviction. But the Holy Spirit is so 346 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 2: gentle if we're willing to openly go before him and 347 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 2: pray and to ask for wisdom. Scripture says for any 348 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 2: who are lacking in wisdom, if you will just ask, 349 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 2: I will lavish. 350 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: It upon you. I love that word lavish because there's 351 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: no end to that. 352 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 2: He's like, absolutely, I will give you wisdom. But sometimes 353 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,120 Speaker 2: we also need to bring in someone from the outside 354 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 2: who will speak with an augible voice, who can be objective. 355 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:49,680 Speaker 2: So probably not your best friend, not even your spouse, 356 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 2: because in my experience, they're probably going to rally behind 357 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 2: me and say, oh no, you were right and they 358 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 2: were wrong. It's not really going to help us identify 359 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 2: our parts so that we aren't repeated again. But something 360 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 2: like a pastor or a spiritual mentor or a counselor 361 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 2: can help us arrive at looking to see is there 362 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 2: something that we contributed to that that and we don't 363 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 2: want to do that again, so let's learn from that experience. 364 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 3: It's good. Well, okay, here here's a big one. When 365 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 3: I was very young in my marriage, I thought I 366 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 3: can change my husband. I can change him. He needs it. 367 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 3: I'm the one to help. So sometimes we're waiting for 368 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 3: the other person to change before we're willing to move forward. 369 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 3: Why is this such a trap? 370 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 2: If we saw the change, forgiveness would be easy. 371 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 1: It really would. 372 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 2: If at a point on my husband doing what I've 373 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,959 Speaker 2: been harping on him too, it'd be so easy for 374 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 2: me to go, oh, I forgive you. But forgiveness is 375 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 2: a sacrifice. 376 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: Of our will. 377 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 3: Oh. 378 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 2: It is saying I'm not going to wait for me 379 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 2: to get my way before I'm obedient to what God 380 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 2: has asked me to do. And we like to be 381 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 2: in control, Carol, all of us. That in part is 382 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 2: why so many struggle with worry. If you're in anxiety, 383 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 2: because we're trying to control the uncontrollable. And the same 384 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 2: is true about forgiveness. 385 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 3: Wow, sometimes the other person doesn't even know we've forgiven them. 386 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 3: Is that okay? 387 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's okay. I cannot tell you the number of 388 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 2: times that has happened in my own life. Many years ago, 389 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 2: I was going through some training and the Lord really 390 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 2: impressed upon me that I needed to stop being so 391 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 2: easily offended. 392 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: That was a hard lesson. 393 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I learned the value in that because sometimes 394 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,639 Speaker 2: I was offended by things that weren't my right to 395 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 2: even be offended about. But in the Lord teaching me that. 396 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 2: Many times people have come to me and said I'm 397 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 2: so sorry about X, Y and Z, and I've been 398 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 2: able to say I've already forgiven it, and they look 399 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 2: at me like what I said, No, I've made it 400 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 2: a practice. Then I'm not going to pick up offenses. 401 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 2: It's not worth my peace, it's not worth my joy, 402 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 2: it's not worth my contentment. So thank you for apologizing. 403 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 2: I accept your apology, but I forgave you a long 404 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,199 Speaker 2: time ago. So my point being, had they not come 405 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 2: to me, they never would have known they were already 406 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 2: pre forgiven. That's good to know forgiven. From Cynthia Rooktie, 407 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 2: she wrote a book about the spouse and the house 408 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 2: and talking about how difficult it can be, especially in 409 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,479 Speaker 2: our later years when we're retired and we're with our 410 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 2: spouser all the time. Yeah, she said, I just made 411 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 2: the decision that I was going to pre forgive my husband. 412 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,400 Speaker 1: Wow, I have some work to do. 413 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 3: I'm gonna have to do some work, clearly. Oh, man. 414 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 3: All right, if somebody today is listening and they know 415 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 3: they need to forgive, but they don't feel ready, what's 416 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 3: the first step? 417 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 2: Get honest with God. That really is the first step, 418 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 2: because forgiveness is about releasing your heart to your savior, 419 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 2: and it's not easy. Most of God's commands, if not 420 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 2: all of God's commands are difficult. 421 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: That's why they're. 422 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 2: A command and not a suggestion. So I would say 423 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 2: the first step is go in your prayer closet and 424 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 2: just pour it out before the Lord. What happened, Why 425 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 2: does it hurt, How did it make you feel? How 426 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 2: does it make you want to respond? And then just 427 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 2: surrender it and ask His help to forgive the other. 428 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 2: And I promise you he will wants that for you 429 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 2: more than you want it for yourself. Oh wow, getting honest, 430 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 2: because as long as we keep trying to hide it 431 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,479 Speaker 2: from the Lord, yeah, your resentment just keeps building and 432 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 2: then you got more to deal with. 433 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great point. What a wonderful discussion. Listener. 434 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 3: Remember that forgiveness is not saying what happened was okay. 435 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 3: Forgiveness is surrendering your right to personally collect the debt 436 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 3: you can forgive, still have boundaries. You can forgive and 437 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:34,160 Speaker 3: still grieve. You can forgive and still say no. But 438 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 3: you cannot experience relational peace while caring unforgiveness. So if 439 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 3: you think if I let go, I'll be vulnerable again, 440 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 3: God can protect your heart better than the bitterness ever 441 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 3: could is. Doctor Michelle pointed out, So take the first step. 442 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 3: You don't have to fix your relationship today. If you've 443 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 3: got one that you are involved with unforgiveness for you 444 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 3: don't have to force reconciliation. Just release that burden that 445 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 3: you've been hearing. And again, as doctor Michelle pointed out, 446 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 3: trust God with the outcome. Thanks for joining us for 447 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 3: the Relational Piece series. If these conversations have encouraged you, 448 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 3: we'd love for you to subscribe, rate and share the 449 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 3: podcast with a friend. And until next time, may you 450 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 3: live as one who is set free