1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:06,620 Speaker 1: Life Audio. I can't undo some things, but I can 2 00:00:06,700 --> 00:00:09,270 Speaker 1: do those things better in the future. Like, I can't 3 00:00:09,380 --> 00:00:12,430 Speaker 1: change that, but I can learn from it and grow 4 00:00:12,490 --> 00:00:14,850 Speaker 1: from it. And even though that emotion's still there, that 5 00:00:14,890 --> 00:00:17,329 Speaker 1: emotion does not have to dictate who I am in 6 00:00:17,350 --> 00:00:19,610 Speaker 1: the future, nor my actions in the future. 7 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Faith Over Fear podcast, where we discuss 8 00:00:26,500 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 2: powerful truths to quiet anxiety and fear big and small. 9 00:00:30,930 --> 00:00:35,290 Speaker 2: I'm your host, Jennifer Slattery. And friend, I understand the 10 00:00:35,409 --> 00:00:37,690 Speaker 2: heavy weight of regret. Most, if not all of us, 11 00:00:37,750 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 2: have things that we wish we could go back and change. 12 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 2: A conversation we wish we'd handled differently. A relationship maybe 13 00:00:45,180 --> 00:00:48,520 Speaker 2: we wish we'd fought harder to repair or fought to 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,629 Speaker 2: repair at all. And sometimes we do get an opportunity 15 00:00:51,710 --> 00:00:54,550 Speaker 2: to do things differently in the future. But what happens 16 00:00:54,590 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 2: when we don't? What happens when the door to repair 17 00:00:59,060 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 2: or to rebuild or to fix something has become permanently closed? 18 00:01:04,060 --> 00:01:06,500 Speaker 2: I'm going to say this side of heaven because that's 19 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:10,220 Speaker 2: where we're at right now. Yeah. Today's guest, Dustin Lawley, 20 00:01:10,270 --> 00:01:14,229 Speaker 2: Sanctus Real's lead singer. He understands that pain. And he's 21 00:01:14,330 --> 00:01:19,090 Speaker 2: joining us to share how his father's unexpected death forced 22 00:01:19,130 --> 00:01:25,110 Speaker 2: him to confront grief, regret and unresolved relational pain and 23 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:29,330 Speaker 2: the most important element, what God taught him about trusting 24 00:01:29,410 --> 00:01:33,230 Speaker 2: him with what he couldn't change. Dustin, thank you so 25 00:01:33,270 --> 00:01:34,169 Speaker 2: much for joining us. 26 00:01:34,610 --> 00:01:35,790 Speaker 1: Thank you. Good to be here. 27 00:01:35,810 --> 00:01:40,410 Speaker 2: So Dustin, take us back to the day on the porch. 28 00:01:40,450 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 2: So you just learned that your dad probably wasn't going 29 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 2: to survive. What was, what was going through your mind? 30 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, there was, Obviously, there was a lot. To really 31 00:01:51,260 --> 00:01:54,420 Speaker 1: understand a story or anything like this, you kind of 32 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:56,460 Speaker 1: have to understand the history of it. You have to 33 00:01:56,500 --> 00:01:59,510 Speaker 1: understand all the things that went into it because, you know, 34 00:01:59,530 --> 00:02:02,790 Speaker 1: on a surface level, you lose your father. It's hard anyway. 35 00:02:03,030 --> 00:02:05,910 Speaker 1: But when your parents divorce when you're two and you 36 00:02:05,950 --> 00:02:08,370 Speaker 1: live your whole life in the middle, right, going back 37 00:02:08,410 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 1: and forth. And there are so many little things through 38 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,790 Speaker 1: my life that caused certain things to that you wouldn't 39 00:02:15,810 --> 00:02:18,709 Speaker 1: understand unless you were there, unless you were part of 40 00:02:18,750 --> 00:02:21,850 Speaker 1: that story. And so it was kind of a surreal 41 00:02:21,889 --> 00:02:24,670 Speaker 1: day because, you know, my dad had gone in for 42 00:02:24,910 --> 00:02:27,970 Speaker 1: a hernia surgery, which was supposed to be outpatient surgery. 43 00:02:28,010 --> 00:02:31,060 Speaker 1: Just a quick thing. He went in, had it done. 44 00:02:31,090 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 1: We all knew it was going to happen. Nobody was 45 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,540 Speaker 1: too concerned because it was kind of a normal type 46 00:02:37,580 --> 00:02:41,460 Speaker 1: of thing. That night, he started having some severe pain 47 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: and went back went back to the ER and they 48 00:02:43,940 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: found a hole in his colon. They found a perforated 49 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,340 Speaker 1: part of his colon, which was, of course, toxic to 50 00:02:50,380 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: the body. And so they went and did another kind 51 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,959 Speaker 1: of emergency surgery. And I got a call that day 52 00:02:55,980 --> 00:02:58,620 Speaker 1: or that night that was like, hey, this happened. The 53 00:02:58,660 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: doctors are saying it's really not a big deal. They 54 00:03:01,060 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: got to it early. Fast forward a month later and 55 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,030 Speaker 1: about five or six phone calls from the hospital all 56 00:03:07,060 --> 00:03:10,700 Speaker 1: saying it's okay. But we were under this impression that 57 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,500 Speaker 1: why is he still in the hospital? Why is he 58 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: still there? 59 00:03:15,300 --> 00:03:16,940 Speaker 2: For a month? He was there for a month? 60 00:03:17,300 --> 00:03:20,359 Speaker 1: He had been there for a month. Wow. And every 61 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: time they went in to repair something, they found something new. 62 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,100 Speaker 1: And we didn't even know how many surgeries. And when 63 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,370 Speaker 1: we got to the hospital, the doctor that was talking 64 00:03:29,380 --> 00:03:31,690 Speaker 1: to us actually said, there's just been a lot. And 65 00:03:31,710 --> 00:03:34,250 Speaker 1: we were like, well, what is a lot? And they said, well, 66 00:03:34,490 --> 00:03:37,910 Speaker 1: right now it's between 9 and 11. Wow. In a month. 67 00:03:37,970 --> 00:03:38,150 Speaker 2: Exactly. 68 00:03:38,710 --> 00:03:41,670 Speaker 1: In a month, but they had always sounded so like, Hey, it's, 69 00:03:41,950 --> 00:03:43,770 Speaker 1: we're going to get them patched up. It's okay. And 70 00:03:43,850 --> 00:03:46,410 Speaker 1: so that day was such a shock because it went 71 00:03:46,490 --> 00:03:49,350 Speaker 1: from like, everything's, you know, going to be okay to, Hey, 72 00:03:49,390 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: we're not sure he's going to last the weekend. 73 00:03:51,500 --> 00:03:51,660 Speaker 2: Right? 74 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: Like, so we're kind of spread out. My brother lives in, 75 00:03:54,580 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: I have, I have three, you know, blended family. So 76 00:03:56,860 --> 00:04:00,020 Speaker 1: I have half siblings, whole siblings, step siblings, all, all 77 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: types of siblings, but everybody, there's five of his kids 78 00:04:03,700 --> 00:04:06,770 Speaker 1: and my brother's in Utah. We're all pretty far spread out. 79 00:04:06,830 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: And They said, hey, you should probably get here. And 80 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: so I was going to go. I'm in Nashville, so 81 00:04:12,580 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: it's about a five-hour drive. He was in north of Cincinnati. 82 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,190 Speaker 1: They said, the best time for you to come is 83 00:04:18,250 --> 00:04:20,310 Speaker 1: at this time, which gave me about an hour and 84 00:04:20,330 --> 00:04:22,650 Speaker 1: a half before I could leave. And I've always, I 85 00:04:22,670 --> 00:04:24,729 Speaker 1: think part of the story too is when you want 86 00:04:24,810 --> 00:04:27,490 Speaker 1: to be perceived a certain way, I've always tried to 87 00:04:27,529 --> 00:04:30,630 Speaker 1: be perceived as logical, rational, keep a good head on 88 00:04:30,670 --> 00:04:32,940 Speaker 1: your shoulders. We My wife and I have been through 89 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: a lot of different stuff in church life and various things. 90 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,820 Speaker 1: And it's always been, hey, it's right. Stay logical. Don't 91 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,580 Speaker 1: put your emotions into it. And, you know, we got 92 00:04:43,620 --> 00:04:45,539 Speaker 1: this call and I kind of played that part. I 93 00:04:45,580 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: remember playing it like thinking, keep it together. Everyone else 94 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: is having a difficult time. And when I hung up 95 00:04:51,810 --> 00:04:54,529 Speaker 1: the phone, that was kind of when I went out 96 00:04:54,570 --> 00:04:56,969 Speaker 1: on the porch and I had to process. And man, 97 00:04:57,150 --> 00:05:00,410 Speaker 1: it's crazy because most people will feel grief. And as 98 00:05:00,430 --> 00:05:03,580 Speaker 1: you know, like, It wasn't grief that hit me really hard. 99 00:05:03,620 --> 00:05:07,530 Speaker 1: It was this moment of like, over the last few years, 100 00:05:07,730 --> 00:05:11,610 Speaker 1: I've kind of let myself drift from the relationship with 101 00:05:11,670 --> 00:05:13,970 Speaker 1: him because there was just a lot of things. We 102 00:05:14,010 --> 00:05:16,650 Speaker 1: discovered later on that he had a lot of social anxiety, 103 00:05:17,029 --> 00:05:18,940 Speaker 1: which again, if you don't know, even my own dad, 104 00:05:18,980 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: I didn't know his whole story. And he was raised 105 00:05:21,620 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: in the time where those things were not going to 106 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: be diagnosed. Those things were not going to be looked 107 00:05:25,740 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: at as you were just this way, right? Like, Especially 108 00:05:28,900 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: for men, I think, right? 109 00:05:30,380 --> 00:05:31,700 Speaker 2: Like even harder for, yeah. 110 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: For sure. And it took a while for me to 111 00:05:34,610 --> 00:05:37,250 Speaker 1: even realize that. But there was so much, I don't 112 00:05:37,350 --> 00:05:41,290 Speaker 1: always tangibly feel bitterness. But I realized over time that 113 00:05:41,330 --> 00:05:43,430 Speaker 1: I had reacted like I was bitter, like I was 114 00:05:43,570 --> 00:05:46,770 Speaker 1: keeping a distance and I wasn't engaging the way that 115 00:05:46,850 --> 00:05:50,450 Speaker 1: I could have and should have. And he lost his 116 00:05:50,550 --> 00:05:54,310 Speaker 1: wife about six years ago, which would be my stepmom. 117 00:05:54,950 --> 00:05:57,950 Speaker 1: And for the last five years, he was pretty much alone. 118 00:05:58,070 --> 00:05:59,669 Speaker 1: And it was one of those things where we'd go 119 00:05:59,750 --> 00:06:02,380 Speaker 1: see him. But I always kept the distance. I always 120 00:06:02,420 --> 00:06:05,220 Speaker 1: kept this space because it was like, hey, he's not 121 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,180 Speaker 1: going to go out of his way for anybody. Why 122 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: would we all go out of our way? And I 123 00:06:08,980 --> 00:06:11,740 Speaker 1: was sitting on the porch and I just kept having 124 00:06:11,779 --> 00:06:15,050 Speaker 1: these thoughts of what it really looks like to be 125 00:06:15,089 --> 00:06:18,250 Speaker 1: like Jesus. And I didn't do that. It was honestly 126 00:06:18,270 --> 00:06:19,770 Speaker 1: one of the hardest moments of my life because I 127 00:06:19,810 --> 00:06:21,940 Speaker 1: think It was one of the first times in my 128 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: life I realized that I had failed at something, like 129 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: dramatically failed. We fail at things all the time when 130 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,860 Speaker 1: it comes to just business or what we want to accomplish. 131 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,940 Speaker 1: But this was more of a failure in what I believe. 132 00:06:34,980 --> 00:06:38,270 Speaker 1: I wasn't acting out what I say that I believe. 133 00:06:38,310 --> 00:06:41,110 Speaker 1: And I knew that I might never get the chance 134 00:06:41,210 --> 00:06:43,849 Speaker 1: to make that right. And so I sat on the 135 00:06:43,890 --> 00:06:45,589 Speaker 1: porch out there. I remember my wife coming out. And 136 00:06:45,610 --> 00:06:48,570 Speaker 1: I think she could tell that it wasn't a normal grief. 137 00:06:48,710 --> 00:06:53,420 Speaker 1: And we just started talking. And our whole thing through 138 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:55,979 Speaker 1: since I was 18, I've been in ministry. I was 139 00:06:56,040 --> 00:07:00,150 Speaker 1: in ministry before this band till I was 34. So 16, 140 00:07:00,150 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 1: 17 years. And my wife and I's entire concept through 141 00:07:04,060 --> 00:07:07,500 Speaker 1: every church we've been through was just to love, love well, 142 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,500 Speaker 1: you know, look like Jesus. There's really hard stuff, but 143 00:07:10,540 --> 00:07:12,500 Speaker 1: there's a lot of bad in the world. So I 144 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:14,370 Speaker 1: think it was on us to feel like we needed 145 00:07:14,410 --> 00:07:18,110 Speaker 1: to represent good. And it was like a hammer when 146 00:07:18,150 --> 00:07:20,890 Speaker 1: you realize that you've accomplished that in a lot of ways, 147 00:07:21,470 --> 00:07:24,110 Speaker 1: except for the ones that are the closest to you. 148 00:07:24,350 --> 00:07:26,550 Speaker 1: And song came out of it, this war I'm in. 149 00:07:26,610 --> 00:07:30,010 Speaker 1: If you listen to those words, you realize it's a complete... 150 00:07:29,770 --> 00:07:32,970 Speaker 1: For me, it was like an unloading of that war 151 00:07:33,010 --> 00:07:35,850 Speaker 1: that we're in, that selfishness that we fight all the time. 152 00:07:36,370 --> 00:07:38,590 Speaker 1: And you think you're doing great, and then something hits 153 00:07:38,610 --> 00:07:41,510 Speaker 1: you over the head. And you're like, I'm such a failure. 154 00:07:41,670 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: And that regret you're talking about, I mean, the depth 155 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:44,450 Speaker 1: of that is. 156 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,750 Speaker 1: Music, right? Like in Christian music, we write music and 157 00:07:48,870 --> 00:07:52,450 Speaker 1: verses are always valleys and how terrible life is and 158 00:07:52,490 --> 00:07:55,670 Speaker 1: how heavy it is. But choruses are always hope. Like, hey, 159 00:07:55,710 --> 00:07:57,870 Speaker 1: everything's fine. God loves me. He's taking me to this 160 00:07:57,910 --> 00:08:00,930 Speaker 1: mountain top. But there are situations like this one where 161 00:08:01,230 --> 00:08:04,210 Speaker 1: there's no happy ending. I mean, there's no way to 162 00:08:04,290 --> 00:08:07,470 Speaker 1: fix it. The only thing to do is to do 163 00:08:07,510 --> 00:08:11,570 Speaker 1: an internal checklist of yourself, learn from it and move 164 00:08:11,710 --> 00:08:15,270 Speaker 1: on somehow. And that's not easy. As a believer, when 165 00:08:15,290 --> 00:08:18,330 Speaker 1: you realize that you let go of something that you 166 00:08:18,370 --> 00:08:21,030 Speaker 1: held dear for so long, that's just not an easy 167 00:08:21,050 --> 00:08:24,550 Speaker 1: thing to do, to go, I can't make this right. 168 00:08:24,930 --> 00:08:28,110 Speaker 1: Christianity is about repentance and forgiveness and mercy and grace. 169 00:08:28,650 --> 00:08:30,950 Speaker 1: And there's moments where you go, I can't go back 170 00:08:31,010 --> 00:08:31,670 Speaker 1: and make that right. 171 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, the one thing I'm thinking of, a couple of 172 00:08:34,059 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 2: things actually as you're talking. So the war I'm in, 173 00:08:36,420 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 2: just the idea of wrestling. And I hear that in 174 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:43,570 Speaker 2: the wrestling with what occurred with your dad. And I 175 00:08:43,610 --> 00:08:46,949 Speaker 2: want to circle back because I'm wondering if there was 176 00:08:47,010 --> 00:08:50,470 Speaker 2: a pain point that you were telling yourself. You said, 177 00:08:50,530 --> 00:08:53,390 Speaker 2: why am I going to show up when he doesn't 178 00:08:53,470 --> 00:08:56,890 Speaker 2: show up for me? And you mentioned grief can be 179 00:08:57,150 --> 00:09:00,590 Speaker 2: so complex. I don't think we recognize that. And so- 180 00:09:01,410 --> 00:09:04,450 Speaker 2: was there an element? I mean, obviously now you realize 181 00:09:04,510 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 2: it wasn't him rejecting you, but was there an element 182 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,580 Speaker 2: of I feel rejected and therefore I'm going to self-protect? 183 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,780 Speaker 1: I think as I was younger, there was a lot 184 00:09:15,820 --> 00:09:17,420 Speaker 1: of that. And I would always say, well, I know 185 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:19,650 Speaker 1: what he's like. And so I'm just going to love 186 00:09:19,690 --> 00:09:23,310 Speaker 1: him the way he is, which sounds wonderful in theory, right? 187 00:09:23,770 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: And I think in a lot of ways, When you're 188 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:30,580 Speaker 1: a teenager, I played college basketball, so I was pretty 189 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,570 Speaker 1: good in high school. And he came to two games 190 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,470 Speaker 1: my entire life. And so all those little things where 191 00:09:37,510 --> 00:09:40,070 Speaker 1: you're like, why will he not go out of his 192 00:09:40,150 --> 00:09:42,709 Speaker 1: way to do these things? Or why do I have 193 00:09:42,770 --> 00:09:44,809 Speaker 1: to be the one to do this all the time? 194 00:09:44,830 --> 00:09:47,510 Speaker 1: And I think as a teenager, those walls got built 195 00:09:47,790 --> 00:09:51,020 Speaker 1: to protect myself. I'd go every two weeks to his house, 196 00:09:51,020 --> 00:09:54,189 Speaker 1: but there were multiple weeks where he just didn't show up. 197 00:09:54,190 --> 00:09:57,020 Speaker 1: And as a kid, that's devastating. And I remember there 198 00:09:57,020 --> 00:09:59,220 Speaker 1: being times where you just, I just lay on my 199 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,580 Speaker 1: bed and cry, like, and then pretend it didn't happen, right? 200 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,900 Speaker 1: Like that type of thing afterward. And so hindsight is 201 00:10:05,940 --> 00:10:08,660 Speaker 1: so 20, 20, where you go, I think I built 202 00:10:08,940 --> 00:10:12,220 Speaker 1: defense mechanisms as a, as a teenager and in my 203 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,370 Speaker 1: early twenties to protect myself from disappointment over and over again. 204 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:21,300 Speaker 1: And without realizing it, I think that created something inside 205 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: of me that that defense mechanism never went away entirely. 206 00:10:24,820 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: And it kept me from committing to a lot of 207 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:31,420 Speaker 1: things that I should have committed to. And honestly, here's 208 00:10:31,460 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: the truth. I believe even in Christianity, even if he 209 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,239 Speaker 1: didn't have certain struggles that prevented him from wanting to 210 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,490 Speaker 1: be in public and go out, even if it was 211 00:10:40,590 --> 00:10:44,670 Speaker 1: just him being a bad person as a believer, Like, 212 00:10:44,750 --> 00:10:47,230 Speaker 1: I even realized that I failed miserably in that way, too, 213 00:10:47,290 --> 00:10:50,750 Speaker 1: because it's not on me. It's not on me to 214 00:10:51,270 --> 00:10:54,750 Speaker 1: punish him or judge him, even though I called it protection. 215 00:10:54,809 --> 00:10:56,209 Speaker 1: In a lot of ways, I think it was. It 216 00:10:56,230 --> 00:10:57,910 Speaker 1: was like, well, I'm going to show him a little bit. 217 00:10:58,370 --> 00:11:00,650 Speaker 1: And so I think there's a lot of that. Even 218 00:11:00,710 --> 00:11:03,550 Speaker 1: if he wasn't as bad as I thought he was 219 00:11:03,870 --> 00:11:07,309 Speaker 1: as a child, that does not take away or give 220 00:11:07,350 --> 00:11:10,490 Speaker 1: me the right to return that as a believer in 221 00:11:10,530 --> 00:11:14,650 Speaker 1: goodness and in God in the better way. I think 222 00:11:14,690 --> 00:11:16,590 Speaker 1: I dealt with all of that. I had to deal 223 00:11:16,630 --> 00:11:19,030 Speaker 1: with those feelings of bitterness and I had to deal 224 00:11:19,070 --> 00:11:22,870 Speaker 1: with those feelings compared to my belief system. It was 225 00:11:22,929 --> 00:11:24,890 Speaker 1: a wrestle. I mean, I still wrestle with it. There's 226 00:11:24,910 --> 00:11:28,150 Speaker 1: still things with people and things in our lives that 227 00:11:28,350 --> 00:11:32,069 Speaker 1: I'm trying to overcome this desire to get even or 228 00:11:32,410 --> 00:11:35,460 Speaker 1: what I think is just in a human sense where 229 00:11:35,700 --> 00:11:39,140 Speaker 1: Jesus would say, hey, lay down your life. You're good enough, right? 230 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,339 Speaker 1: You already have value. And he laid down his life 231 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,420 Speaker 1: for people a lot worse than my dad. You know, 232 00:11:45,660 --> 00:11:47,939 Speaker 1: it's those kinds of regrets. It's those kind of feelings 233 00:11:48,020 --> 00:11:50,939 Speaker 1: that I think the wrestling and that feeling even now, 234 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: a year removed, I still feel the same type of emotion, 235 00:11:54,460 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: the same type of weight. Wow. 236 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,220 Speaker 2: Well, we're going to take a brief break. When we 237 00:11:58,260 --> 00:12:00,540 Speaker 2: get back, I want to talk about your song, The 238 00:12:00,590 --> 00:12:03,750 Speaker 2: War I'm In. I know it's the first of three 239 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,030 Speaker 2: songs that trace your grief journey. And I want to 240 00:12:07,110 --> 00:12:10,590 Speaker 2: talk about what you refer to as defiant grief. 241 00:12:10,980 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: Faith. 242 00:12:11,580 --> 00:12:21,450 Speaker 2: So we'll be back in just a minute. And we're back. 243 00:12:21,630 --> 00:12:25,290 Speaker 2: So before the break, you talked about just wrestling and 244 00:12:25,370 --> 00:12:29,630 Speaker 2: carrying a weight of regret that you're still bearing. And 245 00:12:29,670 --> 00:12:31,970 Speaker 2: I think that can be really hard to like, when 246 00:12:32,030 --> 00:12:35,209 Speaker 2: is this going to lift? Is it ever going to lift? 247 00:12:35,330 --> 00:12:38,010 Speaker 2: You talk about defiant faith. What do you mean by that? 248 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: I think in a lot of ways, faith is believing 249 00:12:40,460 --> 00:12:45,189 Speaker 1: in something that in many times is more than the literal, right? 250 00:12:45,350 --> 00:12:47,350 Speaker 1: Like the things that we see, the things that we 251 00:12:47,390 --> 00:12:50,110 Speaker 1: do and talking about some of the bitterness that grew 252 00:12:50,150 --> 00:12:54,210 Speaker 1: from my dad's actions. Those were literal things. Those were 253 00:12:54,250 --> 00:12:57,329 Speaker 1: definitive in the world, earthly things that we looked at 254 00:12:57,350 --> 00:12:59,910 Speaker 1: and said, oh, that's not right, right? I think when 255 00:12:59,970 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: I speak of defiant faith, it's when your belief is 256 00:13:03,650 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: greater than the literal. It's greater than the thing. You know, 257 00:13:06,780 --> 00:13:09,569 Speaker 1: I think the way of Jesus, turning the other cheek, 258 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,450 Speaker 1: laying down your life, walking that extra mile. All of 259 00:13:12,470 --> 00:13:15,530 Speaker 1: those things are part of our faith journey. Human beings, 260 00:13:15,710 --> 00:13:19,630 Speaker 1: our need to be important is the overriding factor of 261 00:13:19,690 --> 00:13:22,810 Speaker 1: our lives, right? Like we have to know that we're valuable. 262 00:13:22,850 --> 00:13:25,270 Speaker 1: We have to know that we have purpose. If we're 263 00:13:25,309 --> 00:13:28,250 Speaker 1: not careful though, if that's not imbalanced with what we believe, 264 00:13:28,270 --> 00:13:31,110 Speaker 1: that's a very dangerous thing because that means that we're 265 00:13:31,150 --> 00:13:34,630 Speaker 1: protecting our kingdom. We're growing our kingdom at the expense 266 00:13:34,670 --> 00:13:37,569 Speaker 1: of other kingdoms. And I know defiant faith sounds like 267 00:13:37,620 --> 00:13:41,250 Speaker 1: this bold, like, hey, this like statement. But the reality 268 00:13:41,309 --> 00:13:47,890 Speaker 1: is defiant faith is really defying this world's kingdoms, even 269 00:13:47,990 --> 00:13:52,010 Speaker 1: when it seems just because we're called to a heavenly 270 00:13:52,070 --> 00:13:55,890 Speaker 1: kingdom where we're called because we know who we are. 271 00:13:55,910 --> 00:13:59,689 Speaker 1: I love the verse where Jesus washes the disciples' feet. 272 00:13:59,809 --> 00:14:02,370 Speaker 1: There's a verse right before it that is, to me, 273 00:14:02,429 --> 00:14:05,590 Speaker 1: is one of the most defining characteristics of Jesus. the 274 00:14:05,620 --> 00:14:08,610 Speaker 1: Bible says, because he knew who he was and because 275 00:14:08,670 --> 00:14:11,270 Speaker 1: he knew things, everything had been placed in his hands 276 00:14:11,970 --> 00:14:15,130 Speaker 1: because of that, he got down and washed his disciples feet. 277 00:14:15,650 --> 00:14:18,790 Speaker 1: And it was because of that knowledge that he was important, 278 00:14:18,830 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: that he knew who he was, that gave him the 279 00:14:21,420 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: ability to lower himself because he knew he couldn't, he 280 00:14:25,100 --> 00:14:27,460 Speaker 1: just was who he was, right? Like it didn't matter 281 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: if he served, it didn't matter if he was less than, 282 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:32,660 Speaker 1: he was not going to change. And I I think 283 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,620 Speaker 1: for Christians, a lot of times we fight for attention. 284 00:14:35,660 --> 00:14:38,620 Speaker 1: We fight for stages. We fight for our rights and 285 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: all of these things. But the truth is to say 286 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,910 Speaker 1: that we're Christ-like and to deny the reality of the 287 00:14:45,010 --> 00:14:48,050 Speaker 1: kingdom of heaven versus the kingdom of this world, we 288 00:14:48,090 --> 00:14:50,350 Speaker 1: lose our way a little bit. That's what the war is. 289 00:14:51,310 --> 00:14:55,510 Speaker 1: And defiant faith to me is defying the norm. Our 290 00:14:55,590 --> 00:14:59,390 Speaker 1: faith supersedes what normal culture would say is the right 291 00:14:59,430 --> 00:15:02,100 Speaker 1: thing to do or the right way to live. I 292 00:15:02,140 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: think if people heard my story, they would think I 293 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,210 Speaker 1: was justified in how I reacted and how I responded. 294 00:15:09,590 --> 00:15:12,510 Speaker 1: And the truth is the kingdom of heaven isn't that way. 295 00:15:12,870 --> 00:15:15,950 Speaker 1: And my security is not found in getting one over 296 00:15:16,010 --> 00:15:18,430 Speaker 1: on my dad or getting one over on somebody who 297 00:15:18,570 --> 00:15:20,650 Speaker 1: I think is wronging me. And so I think Defiant 298 00:15:20,670 --> 00:15:23,990 Speaker 1: Faith goes a lot farther than just, hey, my situation 299 00:15:24,070 --> 00:15:27,229 Speaker 1: is hard, but I'm going to stand firm. It's really 300 00:15:27,450 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: more of a laying down of yourself situation. is truly 301 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,260 Speaker 1: in our culture, maybe the most defiant thing we can do. 302 00:15:35,610 --> 00:15:39,210 Speaker 1: To be unselfish in our culture is one of the 303 00:15:39,350 --> 00:15:44,190 Speaker 1: most defiant positions we can have. And so that's what 304 00:15:44,250 --> 00:15:46,570 Speaker 1: I speak of and what I believe in the most 305 00:15:46,750 --> 00:15:49,270 Speaker 1: is to live our lives in defiance of the norm, 306 00:15:49,650 --> 00:15:51,220 Speaker 1: I guess I would say. Yeah. 307 00:15:51,290 --> 00:15:55,740 Speaker 2: And you mentioned how people might say you're justified in 308 00:15:56,590 --> 00:16:00,250 Speaker 2: reacting to your pain, but there's no satisfaction in peace 309 00:16:00,790 --> 00:16:02,570 Speaker 2: in seeking our justification. 310 00:16:02,690 --> 00:16:03,090 Speaker 1: Is there? 311 00:16:03,110 --> 00:16:07,550 Speaker 2: And I want to talk about defiant faith in terms of, 312 00:16:08,090 --> 00:16:11,700 Speaker 2: I'm thinking of the people who they're dealing with regret 313 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 2: and they just cannot lift their head. They are buried 314 00:16:15,460 --> 00:16:20,740 Speaker 2: by shame and condemnation. What might defiant faith look like 315 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,260 Speaker 2: for them to stand in grace? 316 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,110 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think sometimes we try to be 317 00:16:27,510 --> 00:16:29,740 Speaker 1: over spiritual on a lot of this stuff. And the 318 00:16:29,780 --> 00:16:33,500 Speaker 1: reality is we speak of shame always as though it's 319 00:16:33,660 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: a terrible thing. But shame that leads us to action 320 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:41,740 Speaker 1: is not a bad thing. Regret that leads to future 321 00:16:41,860 --> 00:16:44,570 Speaker 1: faith is honestly a pretty great thing in the sense 322 00:16:44,810 --> 00:16:48,890 Speaker 1: of what the outcome turns into. Again, I'll go back 323 00:16:48,930 --> 00:16:52,970 Speaker 1: to this idea of being unselfish because it sounds so 324 00:16:53,010 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: contrarian to our society. where when someone is dealing with 325 00:16:57,300 --> 00:17:00,060 Speaker 1: pain and grief and all of these things, it is 326 00:17:00,140 --> 00:17:03,100 Speaker 1: so easy to just internalize. And then it's just about us. 327 00:17:04,020 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: And the only way to really lay that down many 328 00:17:06,340 --> 00:17:10,130 Speaker 1: times is, is to release that and realize it's not 329 00:17:10,170 --> 00:17:12,850 Speaker 1: about us. It's how we, it's how we're going to live. 330 00:17:12,910 --> 00:17:15,250 Speaker 1: It's how we're going to respond to our pain. And 331 00:17:15,330 --> 00:17:18,290 Speaker 1: that doesn't, that doesn't minimize the pain. It doesn't minimize 332 00:17:18,310 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: the grief, but it gives a few, it gives a 333 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: clear path to future growth and, and to realize I 334 00:17:24,820 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: can't undo some things, but I can do those things 335 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: better in the future. Like I can't change that, but 336 00:17:33,140 --> 00:17:34,919 Speaker 1: I can learn from it and grow from it. And 337 00:17:35,010 --> 00:17:37,410 Speaker 1: even though that emotion is still there, that emotion does 338 00:17:37,450 --> 00:17:39,949 Speaker 1: not have to dictate who I am in the future, 339 00:17:40,190 --> 00:17:42,290 Speaker 1: nor my actions in the future. And I think that's 340 00:17:42,330 --> 00:17:45,850 Speaker 1: an important part of it. Like, Our physical actions should 341 00:17:45,910 --> 00:17:49,090 Speaker 1: not always be dictated by our emotional feelings. You know, 342 00:17:49,130 --> 00:17:52,570 Speaker 1: like that's dangerous. And I think the reason why Jesus 343 00:17:52,810 --> 00:17:55,979 Speaker 1: made this part of our belief system was because he 344 00:17:56,020 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: understood there was no good outcome unless you were able 345 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: to do this. There's no health inside of us unless 346 00:18:02,820 --> 00:18:05,179 Speaker 1: at some point we're able to understand that it's not 347 00:18:05,220 --> 00:18:07,700 Speaker 1: just about us, right? Like, and so when he said, 348 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:09,859 Speaker 1: you lose, if you lay down your life, you'll find it. 349 00:18:10,270 --> 00:18:12,270 Speaker 1: There's a lot more wisdom there than I think even 350 00:18:12,350 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: Christians want will hold on to. And to those who 351 00:18:17,450 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 1: are struggling, I would say we all are going to 352 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 1: feel it. You're not abnormal or strange because you feel overwhelmed. 353 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,100 Speaker 1: And the biggest thing I would say would be if 354 00:18:29,140 --> 00:18:32,790 Speaker 1: you're a believer, you have to first understand who you are. 355 00:18:33,230 --> 00:18:36,690 Speaker 1: You have to first understand how you have the spark 356 00:18:36,810 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: of God inside of you and that you've been given value. 357 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,980 Speaker 1: All human beings have value. And we start to live 358 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,820 Speaker 1: out of that value rather than live out of our insecurity. 359 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:54,020 Speaker 1: Insecurity leads to selfish actions. Security leads to unselfish actions. 360 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:58,419 Speaker 1: And I think if we can trend toward that, if 361 00:18:58,460 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 1: you're listening to this and you can trend your life 362 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: toward that, notice how I didn't say just all of 363 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,419 Speaker 1: a sudden start doing it and be better because that 364 00:19:05,460 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: doesn't happen. We know this, right? But if you can 365 00:19:07,859 --> 00:19:10,590 Speaker 1: find a trend in your life that allows you to 366 00:19:10,650 --> 00:19:13,890 Speaker 1: move forward, even if it's tiny, tiny baby steps, there's 367 00:19:13,930 --> 00:19:16,370 Speaker 1: always a path to healing with Jesus. There's always hope 368 00:19:16,650 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 1: in Jesus. Like there's never a time where there's no 369 00:19:19,740 --> 00:19:23,660 Speaker 1: path to healing. But I'll also say this. The reality 370 00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:25,580 Speaker 1: of our lives is that there's always going to be pain. 371 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: There's always going to be trauma. You surround yourself with 372 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: people you love. You're going to lose people you love. 373 00:19:30,820 --> 00:19:35,909 Speaker 1: You surround yourself with stuff. All of it's finite. Our 374 00:19:35,970 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: hope isn't in how great Jesus makes our life in 375 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: this world, that we're secure even through this world. And 376 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: we don't have to fear death and we don't have 377 00:19:43,619 --> 00:19:46,410 Speaker 1: to fear the end. And we can walk through troubles 378 00:19:46,630 --> 00:19:49,980 Speaker 1: and trials, honestly, with a hope that nobody else really has. 379 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:50,380 Speaker 2: Has. 380 00:19:51,180 --> 00:19:54,179 Speaker 1: And I think sometimes we focus so much on the 381 00:19:54,220 --> 00:19:56,899 Speaker 1: details in our lives that we forget the big picture. 382 00:19:57,750 --> 00:20:00,330 Speaker 1: And if we can see the big picture, we'll be 383 00:20:00,369 --> 00:20:03,130 Speaker 1: able to walk through the details in a much more 384 00:20:03,290 --> 00:20:05,330 Speaker 1: faithful way, in a much more happy way, in a 385 00:20:05,369 --> 00:20:10,869 Speaker 1: much more hopeful way. All that to say, We all struggle. 386 00:20:11,270 --> 00:20:14,190 Speaker 1: We're all going to hurt. It's there. Can't do anything 387 00:20:14,230 --> 00:20:15,169 Speaker 1: about it. Yeah. 388 00:20:15,290 --> 00:20:17,730 Speaker 2: Well, if I were to summarize everything you just said 389 00:20:17,750 --> 00:20:22,129 Speaker 2: is wrestle with God in your pain and keep pursuing Jesus. 390 00:20:22,670 --> 00:20:26,149 Speaker 2: And if you do that, he leads to the healing 391 00:20:26,410 --> 00:20:30,250 Speaker 2: that we need. And we're going to take another break. 392 00:20:30,270 --> 00:20:32,859 Speaker 2: When we get back, I want to talk about your 393 00:20:32,970 --> 00:20:37,060 Speaker 2: second song, Make A Way, and what it looks like 394 00:20:37,580 --> 00:20:41,470 Speaker 2: to trust God when we can't see the road ahead. 395 00:20:41,750 --> 00:20:51,780 Speaker 2: So we'll be back in just a minute. And we're back. 396 00:20:51,859 --> 00:20:54,659 Speaker 2: So talk to me about, and I love just the 397 00:20:54,740 --> 00:20:57,739 Speaker 2: theology in your songs. I want to say, talk to 398 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 2: us about make a way and where it came out of. Again, 399 00:21:02,700 --> 00:21:06,070 Speaker 2: we're talking about this defiant faith. 400 00:21:06,450 --> 00:21:09,379 Speaker 1: Yeah. Make a way. It was a song that I 401 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,060 Speaker 1: sat down with a good producer friend of mine and 402 00:21:12,100 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: we were just talking through some of this stuff. And 403 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,169 Speaker 1: I think that the make-away starts with, it's hard to 404 00:21:17,230 --> 00:21:19,669 Speaker 1: see your plan when you're walking on a tightrope and 405 00:21:19,690 --> 00:21:22,830 Speaker 1: you find yourself in a wasteland, right? Like that's kind 406 00:21:22,869 --> 00:21:24,990 Speaker 1: of where you, a lot of people feel, right? Like, 407 00:21:25,030 --> 00:21:26,929 Speaker 1: I don't know what to do. I don't know. I 408 00:21:26,950 --> 00:21:28,630 Speaker 1: feel like I'm just, if I go to the left, 409 00:21:28,650 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: I'm gonna fall. If I go to the right, I'm 410 00:21:30,340 --> 00:21:33,659 Speaker 1: gonna fall. And I think making a way, and I 411 00:21:33,700 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 1: always say this because I don't ever want to be 412 00:21:36,890 --> 00:21:39,929 Speaker 1: somebody with a message that's like, Ooh, pop, God's going 413 00:21:39,950 --> 00:21:42,910 Speaker 1: to fix everything. Cause I actually don't, I don't believe that. 414 00:21:42,970 --> 00:21:45,270 Speaker 1: I think we live in a fallen world and people 415 00:21:45,310 --> 00:21:47,930 Speaker 1: around us make bad choices that affect us. I make 416 00:21:47,990 --> 00:21:50,830 Speaker 1: bad choices that affect other people. That's just part of 417 00:21:50,869 --> 00:21:52,490 Speaker 1: being on planet earth. All you have to do is, 418 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:54,949 Speaker 1: is go on X and see how people act. And 419 00:21:54,970 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: you'd know immediately, like it's never really going to be fixed. 420 00:21:58,420 --> 00:22:01,649 Speaker 1: And so I think Even the concept of him making 421 00:22:01,670 --> 00:22:05,630 Speaker 1: a way is more internal than it is just external, right? 422 00:22:05,650 --> 00:22:07,690 Speaker 1: Like the doors open and we're going to walk through 423 00:22:07,710 --> 00:22:10,110 Speaker 1: it and suddenly everything's going to be bright and wonderful 424 00:22:10,250 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: and great. To me, it all comes down to what 425 00:22:12,619 --> 00:22:15,479 Speaker 1: we believe. I always say this. If you feel like 426 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,580 Speaker 1: you don't have hope, you really, it's not about finding hope. 427 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,659 Speaker 1: It's really about assessing what we believe. It's about assessing 428 00:22:21,700 --> 00:22:24,310 Speaker 1: what you believe about Jesus. It's about, because you really 429 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,670 Speaker 1: can't believe in Jesus and not have hope, right? Like 430 00:22:26,710 --> 00:22:29,450 Speaker 1: he gives hope. He is our hope. It's not something 431 00:22:29,470 --> 00:22:31,670 Speaker 1: he's just offering all the time. It's like, I believe 432 00:22:31,710 --> 00:22:33,410 Speaker 1: he did what he did. And so I have hope. 433 00:22:33,730 --> 00:22:36,899 Speaker 1: And so it's kind of like Make A Way is 434 00:22:36,940 --> 00:22:39,860 Speaker 1: kind of like the journey. And it's a much happier song. 435 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 1: When it comes out, it's a much happier song, just 436 00:22:41,900 --> 00:22:44,700 Speaker 1: so people know. But it's kind of this idea that 437 00:22:45,260 --> 00:22:48,740 Speaker 1: in defiance of your situation, everything I've said, because of 438 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,180 Speaker 1: what we believe in, it's not the end. Because of 439 00:22:52,500 --> 00:22:55,660 Speaker 1: what we believe in, there is always an open door 440 00:22:55,900 --> 00:22:58,030 Speaker 1: to walk through. But a lot of times that open 441 00:22:58,050 --> 00:23:01,709 Speaker 1: doors us walking through. I kind of go back to 442 00:23:01,730 --> 00:23:04,930 Speaker 1: what Paul said. Hopefully our faith leads to a harvest 443 00:23:04,970 --> 00:23:08,790 Speaker 1: of good deeds. You know, our actions are important as 444 00:23:08,850 --> 00:23:12,379 Speaker 1: believers in Jesus. And sometimes we sit so long waiting 445 00:23:12,420 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: for God to make a way when we don't realize 446 00:23:14,340 --> 00:23:15,699 Speaker 1: he's made a lot of ways for us to make 447 00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: huge difference in our world. And when I say our world, 448 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: I mean the people around us. You know, it's not 449 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 1: everything's not global. Sometimes it's just a person that's hurting 450 00:23:23,820 --> 00:23:27,250 Speaker 1: right next to you. That maybe you, because of your pain, 451 00:23:27,410 --> 00:23:29,570 Speaker 1: because of what you're going through, you have way more 452 00:23:29,630 --> 00:23:33,090 Speaker 1: insight into their story than other people. And you said 453 00:23:33,109 --> 00:23:36,820 Speaker 1: something earlier too about like the hope of Jesus. I 454 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: think one of the reasons why we have hope, and 455 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: I think it's really important, is that we understand that 456 00:23:41,780 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: even in these conversations, everyone who's listening to this, every 457 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,100 Speaker 1: single person has a story. And so what I say 458 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,980 Speaker 1: to you on this podcast may not impact them because 459 00:23:53,030 --> 00:23:56,140 Speaker 1: their story's different. I don't understand what they're going through. 460 00:23:56,180 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 1: I don't understand the pain that they're going through. I 461 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,739 Speaker 1: don't understand if they've been abused, neglected. I don't understand 462 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,409 Speaker 1: how they're going to respond to certain words. But I 463 00:24:05,470 --> 00:24:07,929 Speaker 1: do know that God does. Jesus does. He knows our story. 464 00:24:08,230 --> 00:24:10,470 Speaker 1: And I think that's why there's so much grace is 465 00:24:10,530 --> 00:24:12,969 Speaker 1: because he knows what we've been through. He knows what 466 00:24:12,990 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: my dad went through. He knows what that social anxiety 467 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,710 Speaker 1: led to. He knows if his body... was lacking something 468 00:24:20,830 --> 00:24:23,970 Speaker 1: genetically and made him tired all the time, which we 469 00:24:24,010 --> 00:24:27,350 Speaker 1: found out was the case, but nobody knew. And so, 470 00:24:27,570 --> 00:24:29,070 Speaker 1: you know, God knew that the whole time. 471 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 2: Right. 472 00:24:29,859 --> 00:24:32,140 Speaker 1: And so I think for a lot of people, we, 473 00:24:32,220 --> 00:24:34,900 Speaker 1: we put everybody on the same trajectory and say, well, 474 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 1: this is how you, how you get fixed. This is 475 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,700 Speaker 1: how you get repaired. And then you realize that's not 476 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,780 Speaker 1: the truth all the time because we all are different. 477 00:24:42,300 --> 00:24:44,429 Speaker 1: Even how we feel things are different. Even how we 478 00:24:44,490 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 1: react to situations might be different. And, um, I think 479 00:24:48,220 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: the big picture of what make a way is, is yes, 480 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,810 Speaker 1: we all understand what, what trouble is, but only, only 481 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,490 Speaker 1: God really understands how to repair you. Like in a 482 00:24:58,530 --> 00:25:01,470 Speaker 1: lot of, only God knows how to reach you in 483 00:25:01,490 --> 00:25:04,090 Speaker 1: the way that you need to be reached. And so 484 00:25:04,109 --> 00:25:07,100 Speaker 1: I think there is such a trust. It all comes 485 00:25:07,150 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: down to what we believe, how we believe in Jesus 486 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 1: and how we live that out. And every day is 487 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,100 Speaker 1: an opportunity to, to look like him. Every day is 488 00:25:16,140 --> 00:25:19,460 Speaker 1: an opportunity to step through that door. And I think 489 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,379 Speaker 1: that trend that I was talking about earlier, when you 490 00:25:21,420 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: find yourself trending to that, you'll find a different type 491 00:25:24,500 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 1: of depth in your relationship, a different type of hope, 492 00:25:28,260 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 1: a different type of thing that isn't one that's bubbly joy, 493 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,959 Speaker 1: but it's one of depth and it's one of deep belief. 494 00:25:36,660 --> 00:25:39,460 Speaker 1: And it's one of understanding that I can walk through 495 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,010 Speaker 1: valleys and still make it through because of the one 496 00:25:43,030 --> 00:25:44,290 Speaker 1: that I believe in so strongly. 497 00:25:44,930 --> 00:25:47,150 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I want to give our listeners hope because 498 00:25:47,170 --> 00:25:50,210 Speaker 2: we started with the war I'm in, and then I 499 00:25:50,230 --> 00:25:54,010 Speaker 2: want to shift a little to days like these. And, 500 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 2: but in that, I want to talk about what changed 501 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 2: for you from that moment on the porch to when 502 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 2: you begin to really experience, I guess I would say 503 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,790 Speaker 2: the hope of living transformed by Jesus. 504 00:26:12,330 --> 00:26:15,510 Speaker 1: I think it was a, It's a process. I think 505 00:26:15,970 --> 00:26:19,290 Speaker 1: when you're faced with the reality that you failed, but 506 00:26:19,330 --> 00:26:21,949 Speaker 1: that you're not the one that died, right? Like I'm 507 00:26:21,990 --> 00:26:25,850 Speaker 1: still alive. I still have to keep going. I think 508 00:26:25,869 --> 00:26:28,470 Speaker 1: you have a choice to make at some point. And 509 00:26:28,570 --> 00:26:31,230 Speaker 1: that choice is, do I live out what I've always 510 00:26:31,270 --> 00:26:33,730 Speaker 1: said I believe and what I do believe? Do I 511 00:26:33,790 --> 00:26:37,449 Speaker 1: accept grace? Do I accept that maybe I'm feeling this 512 00:26:37,490 --> 00:26:41,830 Speaker 1: way because God is teaching me something rather than just regret, right? 513 00:26:41,850 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 1: Like maybe those feelings of regret, are because I have 514 00:26:45,660 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: an opportunity with other family members and other people around 515 00:26:48,580 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: me and not to make that mistake, not to feel 516 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: like I just did that whole thing over again. For 517 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,859 Speaker 1: me sometimes, and again, we're all different, but I'm a 518 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,100 Speaker 1: very logical person that, you know, I grew up very 519 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,220 Speaker 1: charismatic and it was all emotion. When you go through that, 520 00:27:05,310 --> 00:27:07,850 Speaker 1: you kind of probably go too far the other way 521 00:27:08,310 --> 00:27:11,869 Speaker 1: and try to find balance and realize, you only really 522 00:27:12,010 --> 00:27:14,690 Speaker 1: have one option. You either, you have two options. You 523 00:27:14,710 --> 00:27:17,260 Speaker 1: fall apart or you learn from it and you grow 524 00:27:17,300 --> 00:27:21,180 Speaker 1: from it. And for me, it's not as though I've 525 00:27:21,260 --> 00:27:24,580 Speaker 1: felt this overwhelming sense of hope. It's that I don't 526 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 1: want to feel that again. I don't want to feel 527 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,580 Speaker 1: that regret again. I don't want to feel that shame 528 00:27:29,820 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: of not being the person that I proclaim to be, 529 00:27:33,300 --> 00:27:37,830 Speaker 1: that hypocrisy, that even in my family, all of those things. 530 00:27:37,869 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: And so I think I think this journey has been 531 00:27:41,500 --> 00:27:43,439 Speaker 1: one of, for me in a lot of ways, you 532 00:27:43,460 --> 00:27:47,420 Speaker 1: talk about defiant faith. It's been one of, I need 533 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,470 Speaker 1: to be the person I proclaim to be, right? I need, 534 00:27:50,670 --> 00:27:53,129 Speaker 1: if we're going to keep singing songs in our band, 535 00:27:53,710 --> 00:27:55,889 Speaker 1: if we're going to have a message and a platform 536 00:27:56,050 --> 00:27:59,750 Speaker 1: that can actually reach a lot of people, then we 537 00:27:59,790 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: need to be very careful stewards of the message. We 538 00:28:03,300 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: need to be very careful stewards of that platform. And 539 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:10,490 Speaker 1: it's not about It's not about popularity. It's our job. 540 00:28:10,530 --> 00:28:12,750 Speaker 1: And so you have to have people listen to it, right? 541 00:28:12,770 --> 00:28:15,730 Speaker 1: That we feed our families with it. But more importantly, 542 00:28:15,750 --> 00:28:17,690 Speaker 1: we have to be who we say we are. And 543 00:28:17,750 --> 00:28:20,909 Speaker 1: our message has to reflect that. And it kind of 544 00:28:21,150 --> 00:28:24,330 Speaker 1: caused me to be way more thoughtful with lyrics and 545 00:28:24,369 --> 00:28:27,330 Speaker 1: way more thoughtful with the message that I was constructing 546 00:28:27,369 --> 00:28:32,150 Speaker 1: in these songs. Honestly, though, even being able to write 547 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,939 Speaker 1: these types of songs has been a healing process in 548 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,100 Speaker 1: a lot of ways. Because you do realize, oh, I 549 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,479 Speaker 1: can still... I can still minister to people. I can 550 00:28:40,530 --> 00:28:43,150 Speaker 1: still love people. I can do what I didn't do, 551 00:28:43,270 --> 00:28:45,810 Speaker 1: what I feel like I didn't do before. It's not over. 552 00:28:47,070 --> 00:28:48,990 Speaker 1: I don't feel like God is angry at me. I 553 00:28:49,010 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: don't feel like God doesn't like me. I think the 554 00:28:53,060 --> 00:28:57,380 Speaker 1: reality is God just revealed that there are holes. You 555 00:28:57,420 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 1: have blind spots, right? Like you have these things where 556 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,700 Speaker 1: whether you do a great job of showing me to 557 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,770 Speaker 1: these people, you didn't do a great job of showing 558 00:29:06,790 --> 00:29:09,500 Speaker 1: me to these people. And so I think in a 559 00:29:09,540 --> 00:29:12,380 Speaker 1: lot of ways, it was eye-opening to me. And even in, 560 00:29:12,500 --> 00:29:14,700 Speaker 1: I mean, you know how grief is, where it comes 561 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: on you when you don't even realize it. And I 562 00:29:16,820 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: think even in those moments of emotion where I feel 563 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: heavy and it's hard, the underlying hope is I've got 564 00:29:23,340 --> 00:29:27,830 Speaker 1: the opportunity to help other lives. I've got the opportunity 565 00:29:27,890 --> 00:29:31,990 Speaker 1: to speak to other people. And hopefully my failure can 566 00:29:32,110 --> 00:29:35,170 Speaker 1: lead to love for a lot of other people. 567 00:29:36,030 --> 00:29:38,810 Speaker 2: Yeah, so actually I might have to change my opening 568 00:29:38,850 --> 00:29:42,870 Speaker 2: because it sounds like we do get do-overs, just maybe 569 00:29:42,930 --> 00:29:46,470 Speaker 2: not in the exact situation that we want. But God 570 00:29:46,510 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 2: gives us an opportunity to try again. So for the 571 00:29:50,410 --> 00:29:54,860 Speaker 2: person who is listening right now and are just really 572 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,140 Speaker 2: carrying this weight of regret they don't know what to 573 00:29:58,180 --> 00:30:02,700 Speaker 2: do with, What is one practical step you would encourage 574 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 2: them to take maybe in the week ahead? 575 00:30:04,660 --> 00:30:09,270 Speaker 1: I think just to see God, you know, I think 576 00:30:09,310 --> 00:30:12,350 Speaker 1: to see God as being real. And I know that 577 00:30:12,390 --> 00:30:16,530 Speaker 1: sounds really maybe too trite, but it's not. I think sometimes, 578 00:30:17,130 --> 00:30:19,930 Speaker 1: especially when you're going through hardship, it's so easy to 579 00:30:20,010 --> 00:30:23,630 Speaker 1: blame something else to go, hey, you know, where's God? 580 00:30:23,740 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: Where's all this? But I think we live our lives 581 00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: a lot of times where Christianity becomes a crutch and 582 00:30:29,900 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: it becomes something that is great. And when it's great, like, Hey, 583 00:30:34,780 --> 00:30:37,140 Speaker 1: when my life's great, God's great. But when our life's 584 00:30:37,220 --> 00:30:40,260 Speaker 1: not great, all of a sudden it's God's fault. Right? Like, 585 00:30:40,700 --> 00:30:43,860 Speaker 1: and so I think in some ways it's, it's realizing 586 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: that we are the image of God in this earth. 587 00:30:47,330 --> 00:30:50,690 Speaker 1: Like we, we get to bring goodness to people and 588 00:30:50,730 --> 00:30:53,490 Speaker 1: we get that opportunity every single day. And if, if 589 00:30:53,670 --> 00:30:57,050 Speaker 1: a real tangible thing for someone who's watching today is 590 00:30:57,090 --> 00:31:01,410 Speaker 1: find that opportunity this week, To step outside of yourself, 591 00:31:01,750 --> 00:31:03,530 Speaker 1: even in the midst of your grief and even in 592 00:31:03,550 --> 00:31:06,330 Speaker 1: the midst of your hardship, and even in the midst 593 00:31:06,470 --> 00:31:08,650 Speaker 1: of the most difficult and trying time of your life, 594 00:31:09,370 --> 00:31:12,390 Speaker 1: is to step outside of yourself and realize that there 595 00:31:12,430 --> 00:31:15,610 Speaker 1: are people around you. If you're feeling it, I promise 596 00:31:15,630 --> 00:31:17,890 Speaker 1: you somebody else is feeling it at the same time, right? 597 00:31:18,350 --> 00:31:21,630 Speaker 1: And there is a healing benefit when you take your 598 00:31:21,750 --> 00:31:25,950 Speaker 1: eyes off of yourself. There is a healing benefit. This 599 00:31:26,020 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 1: is not me being like, hey, toughen up and go 600 00:31:27,820 --> 00:31:29,959 Speaker 1: do the thing. No, no. This is part of that 601 00:31:30,020 --> 00:31:34,180 Speaker 1: healing process is to step outside of your own stuff 602 00:31:34,300 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: and look at somebody else's pain. And now, I mean, honestly, 603 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:40,940 Speaker 1: one of the things I've realized, and I've had so 604 00:31:41,020 --> 00:31:43,860 Speaker 1: many conversations, it's hard because this is not an easy 605 00:31:43,900 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: conversation for me. But since we put out this song, 606 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: after every show, people come and talk about the loss 607 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: of a loved one. And I did not expect that. 608 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,090 Speaker 1: I wasn't realizing that I'd have to carry all of 609 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: this all the time. 610 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:56,270 Speaker 2: Yeah. 611 00:31:57,030 --> 00:32:00,650 Speaker 1: But every time I do it, I'm just reminded, like, 612 00:32:00,710 --> 00:32:04,130 Speaker 1: this is an opportunity to step outside of myself. This 613 00:32:04,190 --> 00:32:08,510 Speaker 1: is an opportunity to learn somebody else's story and maybe 614 00:32:08,710 --> 00:32:11,970 Speaker 1: help them step a foot in the right direction. Because 615 00:32:11,990 --> 00:32:14,540 Speaker 1: that's really, honestly, all we can do, right? We can 616 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: really only take one step forward. I think sometimes people 617 00:32:20,220 --> 00:32:22,300 Speaker 1: just want that immediate healing all the time and they 618 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: don't realize life's a journey. As I get older, I 619 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: realize that more and more where every season of your 620 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 1: life has some sort of emotional difficulty that you're not 621 00:32:32,900 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: used to, like you're not prepared for. And so I 622 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,380 Speaker 1: would say to a lot of people, take a deep, 623 00:32:38,460 --> 00:32:43,980 Speaker 1: deep breath. It's not over. And realize, realize it's life 624 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 1: is better when you are not the center of your world. Yeah, yeah. 625 00:32:47,860 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 2: Well, I also think, too, sometimes it's really hard for 626 00:32:50,180 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 2: us in our humanity to receive and recognize God's care 627 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,110 Speaker 2: for us. And when we let it flow through us 628 00:32:56,190 --> 00:32:58,890 Speaker 2: to someone else, sometimes we can catch a glimpse of 629 00:32:58,970 --> 00:33:01,970 Speaker 2: it and who he is on a deeper way. Before 630 00:33:02,010 --> 00:33:04,650 Speaker 2: we close, what's next for you and the band? 631 00:33:05,870 --> 00:33:08,430 Speaker 1: Oh, my goodness. You know, I said earlier, I think 632 00:33:08,510 --> 00:33:10,690 Speaker 1: one of the big changes for the band is, you know, 633 00:33:10,710 --> 00:33:13,510 Speaker 1: we're all in our mid-40s. I've got four kids. The 634 00:33:13,530 --> 00:33:15,970 Speaker 1: guys have, you know, Chris has four kids, Mark has three, 635 00:33:16,580 --> 00:33:20,090 Speaker 1: and they're all growing up. And part of our thing is, again, 636 00:33:20,190 --> 00:33:22,230 Speaker 1: to live out the way of Jesus is not neglecting 637 00:33:22,270 --> 00:33:27,470 Speaker 1: your own family for the job. And so we wanted 638 00:33:27,490 --> 00:33:29,890 Speaker 1: to be more intentional with our ministry. We wanted to 639 00:33:29,930 --> 00:33:33,100 Speaker 1: be more intentional with our songs. And honestly, next year, 640 00:33:33,580 --> 00:33:37,820 Speaker 1: we're actually looking at going from just trying to play concerts, 641 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,100 Speaker 1: because that's what most bands do. They go out for 642 00:33:40,140 --> 00:33:43,500 Speaker 1: a night, to turning it into weekend ministry times with churches. 643 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,550 Speaker 1: where we can go and have these conversations with people 644 00:33:46,870 --> 00:33:50,070 Speaker 1: and men's ministry groups and just being able to share 645 00:33:50,130 --> 00:33:55,030 Speaker 1: more of our heart than just our songs. Normally, it's 646 00:33:55,070 --> 00:33:57,150 Speaker 1: an hour and a half of, hey, here's our songs, 647 00:33:57,230 --> 00:34:01,260 Speaker 1: and I'll do a little ministry tucked in. That's really quick, 648 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: and we're under a time crunch. And I think we 649 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,280 Speaker 1: just wanted to be more intentional with being real people. 650 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,180 Speaker 1: I think too often in our Christian culture, we search 651 00:34:12,219 --> 00:34:15,660 Speaker 1: for stages. And we get on those stages and everybody 652 00:34:15,700 --> 00:34:18,410 Speaker 1: thinks we're special because we sing their favorite song that 653 00:34:18,510 --> 00:34:21,149 Speaker 1: maybe hit them at the right time. And half those 654 00:34:21,210 --> 00:34:24,370 Speaker 1: people don't realize that we're human beings that go home 655 00:34:24,450 --> 00:34:28,010 Speaker 1: to our families and struggle and hurt and honestly just 656 00:34:28,050 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 1: live normal lives. And I think a lot of artists 657 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: hide behind that. And so we want to be intentional 658 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,940 Speaker 1: with just recognizing the stories that we have to tell 659 00:34:38,980 --> 00:34:42,910 Speaker 1: are not stories of fame, stories of hit songs. There's 660 00:34:42,930 --> 00:34:47,410 Speaker 1: stories of struggle and real life and pointing people to 661 00:34:47,450 --> 00:34:50,810 Speaker 1: Jesus through those things. And since this has happened, honestly, 662 00:34:50,890 --> 00:34:53,270 Speaker 1: for me personally, but also the guys, we've kind of 663 00:34:53,290 --> 00:34:55,650 Speaker 1: been on this trajectory for a while that if we're 664 00:34:55,670 --> 00:34:57,710 Speaker 1: going to keep doing this, it has to be with purpose. 665 00:34:58,510 --> 00:35:01,670 Speaker 1: And that purpose is not number one songs anymore. I mean, 666 00:35:01,710 --> 00:35:05,030 Speaker 1: we've had enough success. It's not our driving factor anymore. 667 00:35:05,260 --> 00:35:08,660 Speaker 1: Our driving factor is how do we look like Jesus? Honestly, 668 00:35:08,700 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: in a Christian culture, that's kind of been turned upside down. 669 00:35:12,110 --> 00:35:13,690 Speaker 1: And most of the stories that come out of the 670 00:35:13,710 --> 00:35:17,590 Speaker 1: Christian music world are not Christ-like stories. They're people finding 671 00:35:17,650 --> 00:35:19,450 Speaker 1: out that people are not who they say they are. 672 00:35:20,050 --> 00:35:22,770 Speaker 1: And there are a lot of really great people in 673 00:35:22,810 --> 00:35:25,730 Speaker 1: our business and a lot of really, really strong believers. 674 00:35:26,290 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: And sadly, a lot of those people don't get the 675 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 1: limelight because they're not catchy and they have more depth 676 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,660 Speaker 1: and they're not showy. And in our world, it's like 677 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: the flashing thing is what sells. And so I think 678 00:35:39,260 --> 00:35:42,670 Speaker 1: for us, it's how do we, how do we, enter 679 00:35:42,750 --> 00:35:45,500 Speaker 1: into a phase? How do we enter into a season 680 00:35:45,540 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 1: where it's really wrapped around our message and our ministry? 681 00:35:48,820 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: And I think these songs were the start of it. 682 00:35:51,580 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 1: They're allowing us to tell a story. They're allowing us 683 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: to speak more than just some song that did really 684 00:35:57,219 --> 00:36:00,509 Speaker 1: well because they have a story behind them. And I 685 00:36:00,530 --> 00:36:03,310 Speaker 1: think for us, it's not going to be about building 686 00:36:03,350 --> 00:36:06,050 Speaker 1: Sanctus Real anymore. It's going to be about taking a 687 00:36:06,070 --> 00:36:08,110 Speaker 1: band that's been around for 30 years and sharing the 688 00:36:08,150 --> 00:36:12,900 Speaker 1: story and sharing the heart behind why we're still leaving. 689 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,259 Speaker 1: And in doing that, we're hoping we don't have to 690 00:36:15,300 --> 00:36:18,540 Speaker 1: leave as much our homes. I love that. I love that. 691 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,540 Speaker 2: Well, and actually, that could be actually a good challenge 692 00:36:20,580 --> 00:36:23,989 Speaker 2: for listeners as well. Just every day. How can I 693 00:36:24,140 --> 00:36:27,390 Speaker 2: carry the message in this season to the best of 694 00:36:27,469 --> 00:36:30,529 Speaker 2: my ability? And that might look like authentically wrestling like 695 00:36:30,610 --> 00:36:33,569 Speaker 2: you're like some of your songs do. And it might 696 00:36:33,590 --> 00:36:35,840 Speaker 2: look like holding on, you know, proclaiming the hope. So 697 00:36:37,090 --> 00:36:40,469 Speaker 2: That's really awesome. I look forward to listening to more 698 00:36:40,510 --> 00:36:44,330 Speaker 2: of your music. I appreciate the depth and I'm sorry 699 00:36:44,590 --> 00:36:47,150 Speaker 2: about the loss of your dad. But as you're talking, 700 00:36:47,730 --> 00:36:51,250 Speaker 2: one message came really strong. Actually, two verses were coming 701 00:36:51,290 --> 00:36:53,630 Speaker 2: to mind is the one is Romans 8, 28. And 702 00:36:53,670 --> 00:36:57,489 Speaker 2: God will use all things for good for those who 703 00:36:57,530 --> 00:36:59,510 Speaker 2: love him and for his glory. And that's what he's 704 00:36:59,550 --> 00:37:01,020 Speaker 2: doing in your life. And then the other one, the 705 00:37:01,060 --> 00:37:03,990 Speaker 2: father of compassion says, He comforts us in our sorrows 706 00:37:04,010 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 2: so that we can in turn comfort others. So thank 707 00:37:06,260 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 2: you for showing us what that looked like. This has 708 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:09,580 Speaker 2: been an excellent conversation. 709 00:37:10,219 --> 00:37:12,590 Speaker 1: Thank you, Jennifer. I appreciate it. Thanks for inviting me. 710 00:37:13,810 --> 00:37:16,649 Speaker 2: To my listeners, thank you for listening. I hope this 711 00:37:16,750 --> 00:37:21,549 Speaker 2: conversation encouraged you, gave you a little inspiration to anchor 712 00:37:21,590 --> 00:37:25,129 Speaker 2: yourself in God's grace and with his help and with 713 00:37:25,190 --> 00:37:29,230 Speaker 2: his strength, get up and try again. Because as long 714 00:37:29,290 --> 00:37:32,410 Speaker 2: as we're still breathing, we always have a fresh opportunity, 715 00:37:32,450 --> 00:37:36,540 Speaker 2: a new opportunity. to live according to our convictions. And 716 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 2: as scripture says in Lamentations, God's mercies are new every morning. 717 00:37:42,219 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 2: I also encourage you to check out some of the 718 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,069 Speaker 2: songs we talked about today, especially if you're wrestling through 719 00:37:48,110 --> 00:37:51,049 Speaker 2: some heavy regret. Music has a way of helping us 720 00:37:51,190 --> 00:37:54,850 Speaker 2: process things on a deeper level than if we're just 721 00:37:54,930 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 2: wrestling through those things on our own. And of course, 722 00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,580 Speaker 2: invite God into that. If you haven't already done so, 723 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,400 Speaker 2: I encourage you to subscribe to this podcast. Then you 724 00:38:02,420 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 2: won't miss a single episode. Make sure to rate it 725 00:38:04,950 --> 00:38:07,790 Speaker 2: and review it. That encourages me and it also helps 726 00:38:07,850 --> 00:38:10,950 Speaker 2: others to find our content. Until next time, may you 727 00:38:11,010 --> 00:38:14,089 Speaker 2: live as one who truly has been set free.