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Speaker 1: What makes an NDE evidentially significant is when something is

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Speaker 1: known or seen that couldn't have been known or seen

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Speaker 1: in that state physically possible in a sense. And these

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Speaker 1: accounts will get to are kids coming back and reporting

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Speaker 1: seeing certain people that they didn't know existed. That matches

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Speaker 1: up exactly with somebody that adults know and had not

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Speaker 1: told them about.

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Speaker 2: This is a middle aged lady.

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Speaker 3: She says, when I was about nine years old, I

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Speaker 3: drowned and I was revived, But during that time I

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Speaker 3: had a near death experience and it was just as

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Speaker 3: real to her now fifty years later as it was then.

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Speaker 3: Apparently she could just tell me exactly what happened.

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Speaker 1: These kind of descriptions are very very interesting. What does

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Speaker 1: the data show about near death experiences and children? How

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Speaker 1: compelling are they from an evidential standpoint? Doctor Steve Miller,

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Speaker 1: welcome back. You are my go to near death experience

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Speaker 1: guru and expert, and this is about the tenth episode

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Speaker 1: we've had you on to talk about near death experiences

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Speaker 1: and deathbed experiences and how they provide evidence for God

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Speaker 1: and the afterlife, and also how they dovetail with the

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Speaker 1: best research on traditional Christian theology today We've got a

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Speaker 1: very unique topic that a lot of research has not

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Speaker 1: been done on, and it's near death experiences, deathbed experiences,

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Speaker 1: and children. According to an April twenty twenty six article

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Speaker 1: in Popular Mechanics, children may hold the key to understanding death,

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Speaker 1: but quote very few studies bother and ask children about them.

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Speaker 1: A twenty twenty four article in Psychology Today reported that

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Speaker 1: most near death experience research has been done on adults.

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Speaker 1: So what are the unique challenges of studying cases of

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Speaker 1: children who have near death experiences? And why do you

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Speaker 1: separate them as a special line of evidence?

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Speaker 3: Sure, well, I think that was in Popular Mechanics or

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Speaker 3: other sensational title that children hold the key and that,

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Speaker 3: but I think there is special evidence there. It's quoting

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Speaker 3: a Psychology Today article that was quoting another peer reviewed

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Speaker 3: article which was a summary of other peer reviewed studies

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Speaker 3: own children. So there have been several it's it has

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Speaker 3: been studied, just not as widely in comparison to near

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Speaker 3: death experiences, where you have scores of studies out there.

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Speaker 2: So they have been studied, but.

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Speaker 3: I think the there are both challenges with children. Let's

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Speaker 3: say you have a four year old child that has

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Speaker 3: had some that has died and come back for some

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Speaker 3: reason been resuscitated. You may have to interview them with

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Speaker 3: a coloring book at hand or something to keep their attention,

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Speaker 3: and you talk to them and they may kind of

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Speaker 3: discuss it over.

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Speaker 2: Time, rather than an adult being willing.

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Speaker 3: To talk to you about their experience for hours perhaps,

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Speaker 3: And so their attention to spans a little limited. But

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Speaker 3: the and also their vocabulary is limited to explain things.

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Speaker 3: Now that's a hindrance in one sense, but it's an

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Speaker 3: asset in another because as adults, we're trying to say

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Speaker 3: things in a way that goes along with our worldviews

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Speaker 3: and our past experiences, and children are just kind of

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Speaker 3: freely expressing it. When we get to some of the accounts,

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Speaker 3: you'll actually see this. But I think one of the

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Speaker 3: most important things about children is that number one, they're

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Speaker 3: not familiar with near death experience research. They haven't looked

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Speaker 3: at documentaries of near death studies. So if their experiences

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Speaker 3: are much the same as adults, then it would be

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Speaker 3: hard to say that, oh, well, these people had prior.

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Speaker 2: Exposure to this. And also they don't have a lot

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Speaker 2: of exposure to theology.

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Speaker 3: So if they're talking about things they're not trying to

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Speaker 3: put it into their very limited children's world, which may

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Speaker 3: just be from children's books that their parents have read

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Speaker 3: to them.

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Speaker 1: That's so interesting that on one hand they lack of

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Speaker 1: vocabulary to explain things in the depth and with clarity

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Speaker 1: that adults can, but that can also be a strong

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Speaker 1: suit because there's less of an agenda. They're just describing

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Speaker 1: as best they can what they've seen and are not

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Speaker 1: as committed typically to a certain way of seeing the

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Speaker 1: world and feeling the need to force this into that

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Speaker 1: way of the world.

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Speaker 3: And they're not trying to sell books obviously, like some

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Speaker 3: adults who are telling about their experiencing and by the way,

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Speaker 3: by my paperback book on my experience, so they're not

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Speaker 3: these ulterior motives that some adults would have.

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Speaker 1: I love it. That's helpful. So let's let's talk about

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Speaker 1: what makes an nbe near death experience evidentially significant? And

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Speaker 1: do you when you assess accounts from children look for

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Speaker 1: the same factors or is it different.

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Speaker 3: Many of the same factors, they just come out in

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Speaker 3: a different way with children not her. Diane komp was

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Speaker 3: a professor emeritus of childhood oncology at Yale university. She

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Speaker 3: was an atheist, and she said that in order for

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Speaker 3: me to find God, I felt like I had to

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Speaker 3: come up with some kind of really reliable witness. And

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Speaker 3: she never thought that that witness would be through watching

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Speaker 3: children go through their deaths. But she had this quote,

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Speaker 3: when the clever are really intelligent, they look to children

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Speaker 3: for answers.

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Speaker 2: And I thought, you know, that's sort of like Jesus

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Speaker 2: treated children.

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Speaker 3: People would say, oh, send the children away, we got

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Speaker 3: important things going on. He'd said, bring the little children

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Speaker 3: to me, for the Kingdom of Heaven is for such

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Speaker 3: as these, And he respected children. So I think that

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Speaker 3: they really have something special to say to us. I

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Speaker 3: suspect that they're never told that they're dying. This would

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Speaker 3: be a difference between adults. Imagine that you have a

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Speaker 3: five year old child who's dying of leukemia. You're not

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Speaker 3: going to come up and say, oh, and by the way,

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Speaker 3: you're not going to recover from this.

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Speaker 2: As if the.

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Speaker 3: Child's going to say, well, what do you mean, Well,

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Speaker 3: that means you're gonna go to heaven.

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Speaker 2: Well what does that mean? So?

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Speaker 3: Am I are you going to be there? I mean,

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Speaker 3: to a child, their whole world is their home, their family,

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Speaker 3: their teddy bear, the things that they love, what's home

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Speaker 3: to them. That would be a terrifying thing. So Elizabeth

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Speaker 3: Koobler Ross, one of the greatest experts on wrote the

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Speaker 3: book on Death and Dying. She said that she was

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Speaker 3: usually told, don't tell them that they're going to die.

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Speaker 3: So if a child starts saying to their parents, I'm

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Speaker 3: going to die, you wonder where did this come from.

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Speaker 3: This is an unnatural thing. It's not like they've died

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Speaker 3: before and know how it feels. Why are they saying

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Speaker 3: they're dying if indeed they know it beforehand. So this

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Speaker 3: gives us a special opportunity, evidentially to look at to

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Speaker 3: look at the near death experience.

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Speaker 1: That's so interesting, and it kind of crosses over with

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Speaker 1: what might be called a deathbed experience. And we've talked

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Speaker 1: about this in other episodes. But some people who know

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Speaker 1: generally that they're suffering and could be dying, have a

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Speaker 1: distinct awareness that they're dying before the brain or body

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Speaker 1: could be attested and known from a doctor. They just

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Speaker 1: have this direct awareness. But of course they know they're

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Speaker 1: sick and they know what death is. When it comes

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Speaker 1: to kids, they don't know they're dying, and they generally

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Speaker 1: haven't experienced this in the same way that adults have,

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Speaker 1: so to talk about it is so much novel and

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Speaker 1: different and in some ways surprising for a child than

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Speaker 1: an adult. And of course we'll get to this, but

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Speaker 1: what makes what makes an ND evidentially significant is when

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Speaker 1: something is known or seen that couldn't have been known

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Speaker 1: or seen in that state physically possible in a sense.

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Speaker 1: The counts we'll get to are kids coming back and

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Speaker 1: reporting seeing certain people that they didn't know existed. That

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Speaker 1: matches up exactly with somebody that adults know and had

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Speaker 1: not told them about. These kind of descriptions are very,

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Speaker 1: very interesting and arguably evidentially significant. Okay, what did children

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Speaker 1: tend to report in their NDEs? How do they compare

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Speaker 1: and contrast, for example, with adults. So we often hear

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Speaker 1: there's common criteria, maybe twelve or fifteen. The experts like

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Speaker 1: von Lamel and Sabbam and Jeffrey Long and others talk

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Speaker 1: about You've talked about this in your books like heightened senses,

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Speaker 1: seeing things, hearing things, a tunnel, Angelic Beings, Life Review.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that'd be interesting for a kid who's for

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Speaker 1: to have a life review. But are these common? Are

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Speaker 1: they the same kind of things that we see in adults.

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Speaker 1: Do we see those same kind of things in children

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Speaker 1: in general?

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Speaker 3: I'd say yes, which is surprising from a naturalistic standpoint.

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Speaker 3: You'd think if you have a dying brain and they're

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Speaker 3: just hallucinating from a dying brain, or that they're dreaming

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Speaker 3: dreams that were suggested to them by their parents or others,

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Speaker 3: you would think it would conform to your or your parents'

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Speaker 3: expectations of death, and you'd think that these experiences will

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Speaker 3: be just all over the board.

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Speaker 2: As to what they're experiencing.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I would think it'd be more common if

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Speaker 3: the child thought that they were really dying, that they

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Speaker 3: would kind of deceive themselves by having just thinking about

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Speaker 3: experiences here on earth, continuing with their family, right if

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Speaker 3: you're going to suggest to yourself something.

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Speaker 2: That is comforting.

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Speaker 3: So it is surprising that they seem to have the

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Speaker 3: characteristics of others. Now, as you say, they don't have

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Speaker 3: much of a life to review, you know, Oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: I remember that day when you took my pacifier from me,

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Speaker 3: and I don't know what they would review, So that

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Speaker 3: doesn't seem to be significant. A lot of these are

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Speaker 3: deathbed experiences, and typically in deathbed experiences, the commonalities do

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Speaker 3: not include a life review, which makes sense from a

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Speaker 3: God perspective because they don't have any time to change

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Speaker 3: their lives based on their life review, so it wouldn't

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Speaker 3: make that much sense to have a life review if

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Speaker 3: it's right before death. But for the ones having a

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Speaker 3: near death experience, sometimes one difference may be that it

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Speaker 3: seems to be in an adult experience that God is

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Speaker 3: easing our passage to the other side by allowing us

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Speaker 3: to see people that we know that had predeceased them

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Speaker 3: in death, and for these children, they may not know

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Speaker 3: anybody who's already died, so sometimes it'll be a deceased

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Speaker 3: pet that comes to greet them and welcome them and

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Speaker 3: make them feel comfortable on.

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Speaker 2: The other side. So that would be a difference.

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Speaker 3: It's not anything in contradiction to the amazing pattern of

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Speaker 3: what goes on on this experience globally with adults, but

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Speaker 3: it is tweaked a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Ca.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to get to some stories which are

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Speaker 1: just fascinating and compelling on so many levels, and then

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Speaker 1: some of the most common objections we hear against these,

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Speaker 1: but maybe talk for a minutes Steve about how these

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Speaker 1: experiences affect children. Are they life changing? And it's just

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Speaker 1: interesting to think about a life changing experience for a

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Speaker 1: four year old or a six year old. Again to

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Speaker 1: somebody who's forty, fifty or sixty. Are they the same

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Speaker 1: kind of just impact emotionally and experientially as with an adult.

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Speaker 2: I remember talking to a person.

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Speaker 3: One of the fascinating things about this study is I

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Speaker 3: went in to study the best studies of near death

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Speaker 3: and deathbed experiences. I wanted to see what professors and

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Speaker 3: other great researchers had found when they legitimately interviewed these people,

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Speaker 3: some prospectively, some retrospective, looking at people who'd already had

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Speaker 3: the experience. That's what I wanted to see. But as

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Speaker 3: I began doing this study and would tell other people,

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Speaker 3: people would start telling me their experiences, people from my

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Speaker 3: own circles of trust, people I know and trust. It

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Speaker 3: would just send chills down my spine. I thought, why

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Speaker 3: haven't we ever talked about this at a family gathering?

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Speaker 3: And yet people are scared people will think they're crazy,

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Speaker 3: and so they don't tend to share it but I

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Speaker 3: remember being at a graduate gathering. I teach a public university,

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Speaker 3: Kinnesas State University, and there was a graduate school gathering

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Speaker 3: there and my wife pope me and said, hey, why

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Speaker 3: don't you tell so and so here about what you're studying?

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Speaker 3: And I said, near death and deathbed experiences and this

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Speaker 3: happened so much. The lady you were talking to kind

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Speaker 3: of looks at me and goes, hey, can you uh

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Speaker 3: let's can you talk with me outside? And I said sure.

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Speaker 3: This is a middle aged lady, she's not like a

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Speaker 3: young graduate student. And she says, when I was about

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Speaker 3: nine years old, I drowned and I was revived, but

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Speaker 3: that time I had a near death experience and it

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Speaker 3: was just as real to her now fifty years later

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Speaker 3: as it was then. Apparently she could just tell me

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Speaker 3: exactly what happened. So it's life changing in the sense

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Speaker 3: that these people that have these experiences still remember them

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Speaker 3: decades later, and they think about it, and maybe they've

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Speaker 3: not had anybody to talk to about it because they're

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Speaker 3: so embarrassed to bring up the subject to anyone, or

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Speaker 3: they've tried to tell someone about it and the person

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Speaker 3: nervously kind of put them off. So that's a big

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Speaker 3: part of the impact that I'm seeing is that it's

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Speaker 3: just not forgotten, but also for the children themselves, it's

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Speaker 3: this is a deathbed experience. So again I should back

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Speaker 3: up for those who are the first time a near

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Speaker 3: death experience is when someone, let's say, has a cardiac arrest,

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Speaker 3: the experience clinical death, cessation of breathing and heartbeat, and

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Speaker 3: then they come back telling about this when they're resuscitated,

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Speaker 3: telling about that they are on the other side, in

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Speaker 3: this place with no pain, no worries, meeting with angels,

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Speaker 3: perhaps to cease relatives, having a life review, having a

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Speaker 3: decision as to whether you come back or not, all

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Speaker 3: in a place that's devoid, seemingly of space or time,

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Speaker 3: where you can just go like this to see something

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Speaker 3: far away just as clearly as it is here. These

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Speaker 3: are things that you're not nobody's expecting on the other

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Speaker 3: side to be able to talk to people's mind to mind.

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Speaker 3: But children experience these, and at death a deathbed experience

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Speaker 3: would be before your final death, like a child dying

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Speaker 3: of leukemia, as we mentioned, but a child experiencing this

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Speaker 3: it seems to be something that just greatly eases their transition.

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Speaker 3: It sounds like something that a loving God would allow

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Speaker 3: to keep a child in the most potentially dressing psychologically

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Speaker 3: and physically time of life to be transitioning. Some of

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Speaker 3: them seemed to be like they may have been having

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Speaker 3: a very painful illness, but then for the last few

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Speaker 3: days be totally free of pain. It's almost like they're

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Speaker 3: becoming detached from their body. And then they begin talking

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Speaker 3: about people they're sin now. As opposed to a near

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Speaker 3: death experience where you're coming out of your body, they're

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Speaker 3: typically in their body and they can see their family

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Speaker 3: around them and communicate with them, but at the same

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Speaker 3: time they're talking to deceased people or angels or Jesus

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Speaker 3: or God on the other side. Well, what this does

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Speaker 3: for the child is often and this is what got

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Speaker 3: doctor komp the one who taught at Yale, she said,

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Speaker 3: here here, I had been told don't get too close

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Speaker 3: to the families, don't get too close to your patients

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Speaker 3: at that time. Maybe they've changed now in medical training,

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Speaker 3: but she said, I felt like I had to get

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Speaker 3: close to these families, and in doing so, when I

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Speaker 3: saw some of these children who became very ecstatic and

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Speaker 3: excited about going totally away from everything that they knew,

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Speaker 3: totally away from home, their teddy bears and everything, and

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Speaker 3: they were excited and they were comforting their parents. You see,

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Speaker 3: they didn't even know they were dying, according to the parents,

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Speaker 3: but they knew that they were dying.

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Speaker 2: They knew that.

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Speaker 3: Their parents were upset and concern and you would see

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Speaker 3: these little children comforting their parents and saying, it's okay,

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Speaker 3: it's great. Over there, I want to go.

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Speaker 1: This is so interesting. I'm getting someone ahead of myself

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Speaker 1: with the objections. But one naturalistic objection would be that

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Speaker 1: evolution explains this. Somebody's dying and it's just easing the

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Speaker 1: process of death. But on the other hand, in evolution

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Speaker 1: is a fight for survival, why would you have a

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Speaker 1: mechanism to help somebody die then encourages other people to

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Speaker 1: not fear death and not fight force their face. Such

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Speaker 1: an explanation, to me, wouldn't seem to work. Now I'm

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Speaker 1: getting a little bit ahead of myself. I do want

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Speaker 1: e f size. My next question is going to be

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Speaker 1: about stories. I need to give us some examples of children,

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Speaker 1: what they're seeing and what they're reporting. But for this lady,

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Speaker 1: you said four or five decades later to hear what

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Speaker 1: you do and then immediately want to share it, say,

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Speaker 1: can we step outside, there's still forty or fifty years later,

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Speaker 1: a sense of like embarrassment is even to think I'm crazy.

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Speaker 1: I've got to keep this private, tells me, as a

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Speaker 1: pastor at my local church, as somebody who just works

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Speaker 1: with people personally, not just apologetically. We've got to talk

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Speaker 1: about this, and this is way more common than people realize.

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Speaker 1: And to have an experience from four decades ago feel

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Speaker 1: alive and vibrant tells me that is a life defining

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Speaker 1: experience for this individual. And that's what we see in

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Speaker 1: so many of these children. So with that said, there

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Speaker 1: is in the stories themselves. But I know you're a

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Speaker 1: data person, and that's one reason I keep bringing you

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Speaker 1: back on is you do your work carefully. Give us

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Speaker 1: some examples of well documented stories from dying children. I

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Speaker 1: say well documented because I know right now people are thinking,

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Speaker 1: we've seen books with well known Christian publishers tell stories

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Speaker 1: about kids near death experiences and then retract it because

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Speaker 1: later the kid says it was made up. Totally recognize

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Speaker 1: there have been some faulty ones, but that doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: all stories are faulty. Give me some examples of well

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Speaker 1: documented cases from dying children, and then maybe how we

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Speaker 1: evidentially evaluate them.

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Speaker 3: Sure, the name of the book I'm familiar with, whether

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Speaker 3: that happened where it was all a deception. The family's

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Speaker 3: name was Malarkey. We should have had some kind of

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Speaker 3: queue so that there was something wrong with that.

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Speaker 1: Oh my good.

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Speaker 2: But yes.

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Speaker 3: So when I went to study these, I thought, I

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Speaker 3: don't want to pull stuff from the internet. These are

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Speaker 3: people that I don't know. I want to approach it

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Speaker 3: like we do in the legal sphere, where testimony is important.

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Speaker 3: Testimony is value our legal system. We're largely crumble without

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Speaker 3: personal testimony, an expert testimony. So we're looking for testimonies

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Speaker 3: that are actually valuable. And one of the special cases

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Speaker 3: in the legal system is the deathbed testimony. Because people

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Speaker 3: are very unlikely to be trying to get in their

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Speaker 3: last lie right before they die. They're kind of sensitive

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Speaker 3: to these things and what's their motive. Again, They're not

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Speaker 3: publishing a book or getting famous. They're about to die,

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Speaker 3: So these testimonies can be important. But I just want

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Speaker 3: to warn people. If you go to YouTube and start

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Speaker 3: searching for near death experiences. What it's going to inevitably

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Speaker 3: pull up for you are the most anomalous, strange experiences,

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Speaker 3: not strange in the sense of unbelievable, but they're going

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Speaker 3: to tend to be talking about a lot of doctrine

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Speaker 3: that maybe fits with a Norman worldview or Hindu worldview,

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Speaker 3: or somebody's Christian worldview. Because people that are trying to

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Speaker 3: get clicks on their websites and on their YouTube channels,

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Speaker 3: they know that people love these details, and people are

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Speaker 3: willing to exaggerate and put them out there. So if

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Speaker 3: you go and search for it, you'll typically get the

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Speaker 3: ones that are not the same old consistent near death

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Speaker 3: experience or deathbed experience that we're seeing in the literature.

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Speaker 3: So I stuck with the literature, and I've got some

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Speaker 3: of the books here with me to show you that

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Speaker 3: I'm actually reading these books and this is where I'm

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Speaker 3: getting them from rather than just taking stories from the internet.

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Speaker 3: But let me just quote, I'm going to stick a

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Speaker 3: little bit close to the writing because I want to

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Speaker 3: get the stories correct. I have a great respect for

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Speaker 3: these stories.

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Speaker 2: So this is.

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Speaker 3: Coming from my book Deathbed Experiences as Evidence for the Afterlife,

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Speaker 3: and I document all this relentlessly so that you can

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Speaker 3: go in and study them yourselves.

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Speaker 1: And so people know why you're looking for that quote.

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Speaker 1: People can buy it on Amazon, but you send people

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Speaker 1: the PDF for free, and we'll give that information at

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Speaker 1: the end. Because earlier we said somebody who's trying to

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Speaker 1: sell books, and then you hold up your book, that's

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Speaker 1: not what you're trying to do. Here, information out to people,

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Speaker 1: and you're happy to send to them totally for free.

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Speaker 3: Sure, And in case we forget J Steve Miller, the

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Speaker 3: letter J Steve Miller at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: If you don't have the money or you're in.

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Speaker 3: A country where it's hard to get a book, you

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Speaker 3: know I can send you a free PDF of any

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Speaker 3: of my books.

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Speaker 2: I have several on these shows.

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Speaker 1: So I can't believe you give your personal email out.

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Speaker 1: There's about zero chance I would, which just proves you're

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Speaker 1: a better man than I am.

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Speaker 2: See proves I'm not as famous as you. I don't

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Speaker 2: know about all.

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Speaker 1: Right, go to the quote.

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Speaker 2: Here we go pays one. Let's look at this one.

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Speaker 3: Now, this is one is interesting in several ways.

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Speaker 2: First of all, it's a doctor Morse that was doing

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Speaker 2: the study.

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Speaker 3: This was published in a peer review journal as well

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Speaker 3: as his book. He has a book here that I

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Speaker 3: don't see right off hand, but he's uh, he wrote

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Speaker 3: a book on it, Dr Morse, and it's called Closer

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Speaker 3: to the Light.

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Speaker 2: And so there was this child who was.

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Speaker 3: Brought to him who had died in a swimming pool, drowned.

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Speaker 3: She was found at the bottom of the pool. She

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Speaker 3: was totally unresponsive and was floating face down. Actually when

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Speaker 3: they found her, she was resuscitated in the emergency room.

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Speaker 2: So this was a good while later. They had to

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Speaker 2: get her to an emergency room and she was she

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Speaker 2: was actually brought back to life.

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Speaker 3: And so doctor Morse inquired about what had happened in

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Speaker 3: the water. So he's talking to the child after she's

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Speaker 3: recovered and fully conscious, and wants to know what happened.

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Speaker 3: I mean, did somebody push her? Did he? He needs,

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Speaker 3: did she hit the bottom? What happened? And she's saying

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Speaker 3: what happened? And she said, well, do you mean about

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Speaker 3: meeting Jesus and the Heavenly Father? And Doctor Moore's kind

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Speaker 3: of shocked. He says, why, yes, tell me about that

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Speaker 3: fit answer, And so she told of meeting Jesus the

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Speaker 3: heavenly father and a parent angel, a couple of young

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Speaker 3: boys named Mark and Andy, and he was and she

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Speaker 3: talked for a little while, Like I was saying, with children,

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Speaker 3: you don't get the whole story out of them, but

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Speaker 3: he got that much. And then he interviews some intensive

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Speaker 3: care nurses to see if this could be corroborated with them,

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Speaker 3: and said, you know, what did she say when she

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Speaker 3: first waked up, If you're the one that said, well,

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Speaker 3: they asked where Mark and Andy? So I mean, this

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Speaker 3: was a story that she knew well right from the

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Speaker 3: very start and was consistent with it. But she spoke

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Speaker 3: of seeing things that were going on with her family

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Speaker 3: at their house during the time she was in the coma,

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Speaker 3: telling where what clothes her family was wearing. This is

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Speaker 3: in their house. She wasn't in their house. She was

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Speaker 3: in the hospital, and she's telling what's going on in

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Speaker 3: her house with her family, what her mom was cooking,

435
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Speaker 3: what her brothers were playing with a gi Joe specifically,

436
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Speaker 3: and a jeep. Katie's mother corroborated this and was indeed

437
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Speaker 3: what they were doing and what they were wearing at

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Speaker 3: the house.

439
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 2: So he publishes this art.

440
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 3: Okay, now I think about that for a minute, how

441
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 3: did she know these things unless she was outside of

442
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 3: her body, which lets you know why people like JP

443
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:34,120
Speaker 3: Morland and Gary Habermoss are intent on talking about near

444
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 3: death experiences to say, this seems to prove that people

445
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:41,640
Speaker 3: are outside of their bodies and mind body dualism, which

446
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 3: the Bible talks about, so they use that as evidence

447
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 3: of this. This is a good case, endpoint. So it

448
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 3: was published in the American Journal of Diseases of Children.

449
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 3: This was not a theological journal. And by the way,

450
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 3: these studies on near death and death but experiences, they're

451
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 3: all over the medical literature because these are very practical

452
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 3: questions that nurses and doctors have to deal with on

453
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 3: a day to day basis. If someone's dying and they

454
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 3: begin talking to deceased relatives, they need to know, oh,

455
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 3: do I need to adjust the morphine or is this

456
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 3: some type of legitimate experience. And basically when you read

457
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,400
Speaker 3: these articles, overwhelmingly they say, treat it like a legitimate

458
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 3: whatever you believe about it, treat it like a legitimate experience.

459
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 2: This is not a hallucination.

460
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 1: It's a great response from that doctor to just say, yeah,

461
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: tell me more and not freak galloy.

462
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 3: He was just flabbergast, didn't didn't know what to say,

463
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 3: or if he was sensitive enough to children to say,

464
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 3: this is interesting, let's uh.

465
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: And I find the same thing in my conversation with people.

466
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 1: Sometimes people will say certain things that indicate they've had

467
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 1: an experience like this. I just say, tell me more.

468
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: And it's amazing how many times people are willing to share. Now,

469
00:25:54,880 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: it's evidentially significant about this is she's face down, clinically dead,

470
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 1: if she's rushed the hospital. This is seemingly beyond the

471
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: four minute mark as far as I would guess, resuscitated back.

472
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 1: Her family was not there giving her information that she

473
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 1: did not talk with them before the doctor did. He's

474
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: the first one when she's suscitated back reports information from

475
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 1: a distance, specified information, not just my siblings are playing

476
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 1: on the floor or genero my mom's making dinner. It's

477
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: specified information what.

478
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 2: They are, what they're eating, what they're playing with.

479
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it matches up. That's the kind of evidential

480
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 1: significance that we're looking for that says this is more

481
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 1: of a story than a kid just made up. Not

482
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 1: to mention, I mean child or not like drowning like

483
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 1: that is incredibly traumatic that this is the first thing

484
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 1: you talk about is so opposite of what you would

485
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: expect just from a biological level. Now, I do want

486
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 1: to ask if there's some reputable, larger studies, but are

487
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 1: there some other individual accounts that you want to share

488
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 1: about children's Sure, I think.

489
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 3: They need to deal with some of these accounts because

490
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,719
Speaker 3: they're published in peer review literature or by very respected people.

491
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 3: Let me tell you, first of all, just what Morse

492
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 3: did as a result of this. He said, we are

493
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 3: taught what is his conclusion. Okay, he's the doctrine charge

494
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 3: and his articles you'll find are very well documented, very

495
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 3: very good studies that he does. But he said, we're

496
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 3: taught in medical skill to find the simplest explanation for

497
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 3: medical problems. After looking at all the other explanations for

498
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,439
Speaker 3: near death experiences, I think the simplest explanation is that

499
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 3: ndseas are actually glimpses into the world beyond.

500
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 2: Why not.

501
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 3: I've read all the convoluted psychological and physiological explanations for

502
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 3: NDEs and none of them seems very satisfying. And so

503
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 3: he went on to do a study of children's near

504
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 3: death experiences and deathbed experiences and plublish those as well.

505
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 1: That's seems like about as good of a motivation to

506
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: do that study as any. If that doesn't see your interest,

507
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: I don't know what would now. I do want to

508
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 1: get into some of those studies. But is there another

509
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: account or two you want to share about the kind

510
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: of experiences that children have so we get a sense

511
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: of it, or do you want to move on to

512
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: the larger style.

513
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 2: Let's let's talk about some of these.

514
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 3: I think people need to stop and reflect and put

515
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 3: it in your theological or philosophical pipe and smoke on

516
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 3: it a little bit on your back deck, because you

517
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 3: need you need to stop and think about it.

518
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Biola. We don't smoke here. I'm just kidding.

519
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 3: I teach you to public university. Okay, So here we go.

520
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 2: H on children and Death.

521
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 3: This is by Elizabeth Koobler Ross, who is a trained psychiatrist.

522
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 3: Her doctred is in psychiatry. She's probably the authority on

523
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 3: death and dying, and so she has a book on

524
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 3: children and death. And I'll just read one of her

525
00:28:54,440 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 3: accounts for you to evaluate. But very fascinating. Again, she said,

526
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 3: it reminds this reminds me of my early days of

527
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 3: my work with dying patients, and she was one of

528
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 3: the first when she came from Switzerland to New York

529
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 3: City and began working with dying patients.

530
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 2: She was just appalled at the way they're treated.

531
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 3: The doctors were embarrassed that they were failing, you know,

532
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 3: so they're kind of and you're just trying every possible

533
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 3: way to keep somebody alive, which may just be torturing

534
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 3: the patient. And so she began to work and become

535
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 3: an authority own working with people that they're dying stages,

536
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 3: and was very influential on the hospice movement.

537
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: By the way, beginnings of that about this is we're

538
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: seeing more and more research come out about people that

539
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: seem to be in a brain dead, coomatose state that

540
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: it was believed they couldn't register and hear, and now

541
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, actually people come out of it and

542
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: see and hear. The way they were treated in very

543
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: dehumanizing kind of language is what we would expect if

544
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: we are body and soul and not just a body.

545
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: So that's another line of evidence I think that's pointing

546
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 1: towards this dualism that we're talking about, but keep going

547
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: with her research.

548
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 3: Sure, so I spent at the unit she was working

549
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 3: at a university hospital, where she said I had no

550
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,239
Speaker 3: I had to promise never to tell my patients that

551
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 3: they were terminally ill. It was easy to keep this promise,

552
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 3: since the patients would tell me. Shortly Before children die,

553
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 3: there's often a very clear moment, as I call it.

554
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 3: Those who have remained in a coma since the accident

555
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 3: or a surgery opened their eyes. That's terminal lucidity, as

556
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 3: we've talked about before. They opened their eyes and seem

557
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 3: very coherent. Those who have had great pain and discomfort

558
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 3: are very quiet and at peace. It is in these

559
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 3: moments that I asked them if they were willing to

560
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 3: share with me what they were experiencing. Yes, this is

561
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 3: a quote. Yes everything is all right now. Mommy and

562
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 3: Peter are already waiting for me. One boy replied with

563
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 3: a content little smile. He slipped back into a coma,

564
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 3: from which he made the transition we called death. I

565
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 3: was aware that the child's mother had died at the

566
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 3: scene of the accident. Okay, so remember he saw Mommy

567
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 3: and Peter waiting for him. When she said she was

568
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 3: aware that the mother had died. Maybe he had heard

569
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 3: from someone that his mother had died. Okay for her

570
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 3: to expect her on the other side, But he said,

571
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 3: Mommy and Peter are both waiting for me. I was

572
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 3: aware that the mother had died, but Peter had not died.

573
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 3: He had been brought to a special burn unit in

574
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 3: another hospital, severely burnt because the car had caught fire

575
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 3: before he was extricated from the wreck. Since I was

576
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 3: only collecting data, accepted the boy's information determined to look

577
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 3: in on Peter. It was not necessary, however, because as

578
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 3: I passed the nursing station there was a call from

579
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 3: the other hospital to inform me that Peter had died

580
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 3: a few minutes earlier. In all that chill going down

581
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 3: your spine, yet it should be if this is crazy,

582
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 3: wild stuff from a naturalistic standpoint, in all the years

583
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 3: that I have quietly collected data from California to Sydney, Australia,

584
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 3: white and black children, Aboriginals, Eskimos, South Americans and Libyan youngsters,

585
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 3: every since she is speaking with authority here right, every

586
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 3: single child who has mentioned that someone was waiting for

587
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 3: them mentioned a person who had actually preceded them in death,

588
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 3: even if only by a few moments. And yet none

589
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 3: of these children had been informed of the recent death

590
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 3: of the relatives by us at any time coincidence. By now,

591
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 3: there is no scientist or statistician who could convince me

592
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 3: that this occurs, as some colleagues claim, as a result

593
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 3: of oxygen deprivation or for other rational or scientific reasons.

594
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 3: So this is the conclusion of somebody who's spent her

595
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 3: life working with the dying, and specifically a lot of

596
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 3: dying children.

597
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: So the first account is somebody having information at a

598
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: distance that they could not have had access to. This

599
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: account is somebody having information from the next life or

600
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 1: the after life that they couldn't have had information to,

601
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: knowing that a person had died. What's interesting about this

602
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: is it's not just North American Christians, for example, she says,

603
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: it's a cross culture, Libya, Latin America, Native Americans, you

604
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 1: name it. So it's more of a universal kind of experience,

605
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: which tells us two things. Number one, there's a lot

606
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: of numbers behind this. Yes, So number two, there's a

607
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: lot of diversity behind this, which I think makes the

608
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: case arguably even stronger. Uh, let's talk a little about

609
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: do you have another individual story you want to you

610
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: want to share, you mention.

611
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 2: A couple of them related with me.

612
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 3: Again, one of the most fascinating things, and I would

613
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 3: just encourage people. One of the most fascinating things about

614
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 3: this is if you're not into the research and digging

615
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 3: endlessly into peer reviewed journals, start talking to the people

616
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 3: you know and trust. Tell them you know, I'm interested

617
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 3: in and I'm studying on near death and deathbed experiences

618
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 3: and experience. And you'll be amazed at how many people

619
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,439
Speaker 3: come up to you from your church, from your UH,

620
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 3: from your work, from your UH wherever you're studying at

621
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,800
Speaker 3: a university UH and and start telling you these stories.

622
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 3: So I reconnected with a friend of mine in the ministry.

623
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 3: He had had a background and a Simmary seminary that

624
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 3: was more on dispensationalism, teaching that God worked these miraculous

625
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 3: ways and early, you know, back in biblical times, but

626
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 3: not so much now. So when we were in ministry together,

627
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 3: we didn't talk a lot about miracles and visions or

628
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 3: anything like that. He had since spent some time in

629
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 3: a Muslim country ministry and had come back and was

630
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 3: talking about some of these visions, but they actually had

631
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 3: one that happened in their own family.

632
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 2: So this is a person I know and trust. He's

633
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 2: not a guy.

634
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 3: Who's always telling wild stories of God did this, God

635
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 3: did that in my life. He's not one of those.

636
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,919
Speaker 3: But his wife just wrote me an email. She said,

637
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 3: I'd like to tell you what happened to my precious

638
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 3: four year old niece. She gives the names, but I'm

639
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,240
Speaker 3: going to leave those out for their privacy. She died

640
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 3: tragically and unexpected unexpectedly several years ago, four years old. Okay,

641
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 3: remember that a few weeks prior to her death, she

642
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 3: started coming to her parents room in the middle of

643
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 3: the night. She would wake them up tell them that

644
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 3: she had seen Jesus and that he wanted her to

645
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 3: come and live with him. His parents, of course, would

646
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:48,800
Speaker 3: assure her that yes, someday she would go to be

647
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 3: with Jesus when she died, but that would be a

648
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 3: long time in the future. The following night, Andy came

649
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 3: into the bedroom and repeated what she had seen. The

650
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 3: third night this happened, her mother became upset and told her, no,

651
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 3: not now, in the future. Andy would not be convinced mommy,

652
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,439
Speaker 3: She said, Jesus wants me to come now to live

653
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 3: with him, and I want to go now. I get

654
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 3: that she wants to go now. Her parents were not

655
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 3: mean parents. This was a loving family. But somehow on

656
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 3: the other side, she felt so welcomed, so at home

657
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 3: that this had prepared her and was preparing her family

658
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 3: with what was to happen. Two weeks later, the mother

659
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 3: was driving to the school where she was a teacher.

660
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 3: The daughter safely buckled in the back seat the rural

661
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:42,399
Speaker 3: road where they ran parallel to the train track. Then

662
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,879
Speaker 3: right before the school, the road made a sharp left

663
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 3: turn and crossed the track. It was a blind crossing,

664
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,720
Speaker 3: meaning there were no gates or lights. The mother crossed

665
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:53,879
Speaker 3: the track every morning. At this time, there were never

666
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 3: any trains, but this day there was. The car they

667
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 3: were driving was broadsided by the train, badly damaged. The

668
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 3: mother survived, but the child died in that wreck. She

669
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 3: was able to hold her for a minute, but she

670
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 3: died afterwards, And indeed she went to live with Jesus.

671
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 3: So this is a powerful, powerful thing coming from somebody,

672
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 3: somebody I know, and I can just maybe if we

673
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 3: don't have time for all of these, I'll just say

674
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 3: they're I don't know the statistics on children. Children obviously

675
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 3: haven't lived as long as adults, and so they haven't

676
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,800
Speaker 3: had as many opportunities to die and come back in

677
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 3: a near death experience, or have heart attacks or whatever.

678
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 3: So four percent of the adult population is talking about

679
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 3: near death experiences. In large well done surveys in Australia

680
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 3: and Germany. The United States, four to six percent of

681
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,320
Speaker 3: the people deathbed experiences deathbed visions.

682
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 2: Someone studied that in.

683
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 3: A hospice unit in New York. They interviewed the patients

684
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 3: daily and found that up to eighty eight percent of

685
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 3: them we're having these experiences. So these are widely experienced.

686
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 3: I don't know the numbers on children, but I know

687
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 3: there are plenty of peer reviewed and reputable people that

688
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 3: have given plenty of instances of coming from children.

689
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 2: But I'll just mention a family from Ukraine.

690
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: Let mean you in here before you go to the

691
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,359
Speaker 1: family from Ukraine. I know people listening to that past

692
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: story going, wait a minute, why would God allow this

693
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,959
Speaker 1: to happen? Why wouldn't he just save the child? Those

694
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 1: are completely fair questions, yes, related to the problem of

695
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,280
Speaker 1: evil and we're going to deal with theological and biblical

696
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:48,879
Speaker 1: objections in an entire other episode we're doing soon. We're

697
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 1: not dismissing those. Part of my answer is I don't

698
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 1: know the answer to that, and that's very fair. What

699
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: we're looking at here is the evidential significance of somebody

700
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 1: saying this in the middle of the night to their

701
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 1: parents and then within two weeks dying. That it's hard

702
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 1: to invent a story like that. Again, somebody seemingly no

703
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 1: incentive because you know, they lost their child. Sharing this

704
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 1: with you personally, that's a very significant thing. Now, of

705
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: course somebody gets say, well, they're inventing it to make

706
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 1: themselves feel good and comfort themselves. Well, there's a lot

707
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: of ways to comfort yourself besides inventing a story that

708
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 1: raises other things.

709
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 3: Did they know they needed to be comforted exactly? Train

710
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 3: had not hit them in that.

711
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 1: You're raising all the right questions. I just want to

712
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: make sure people know we're not dismissing those, and I

713
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: understand the way to those questions.

714
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 2: Let me let me comment on the problem of evil.

715
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 3: I think this is important and I think that near

716
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 3: death and deathbed experiences have something to say to that

717
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 3: because people do think of what what kind of a

718
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 3: God would allow a young child like this to be

719
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 3: to be killed in such a tragic way. But I

720
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,280
Speaker 3: will say that people poll who have had near death experiences,

721
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 3: and I've read hundreds and hundreds of these experiences, I've

722
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 3: never seen one person come back and say that when

723
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 3: they met God that he was evil or unjust.

724
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 2: They even the things in.

725
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 3: Their life like why was I born into this family

726
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 3: or why did this happen to me? On the other side,

727
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 3: it all made since, and they come back saying, that

728
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 3: is the most loving being. I never wanted to leave

729
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 3: this being side, And so it seems like the problem

730
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 3: of evil is cleared up once your mind has expanded.

731
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 3: Now when they come back over here, they can't explain

732
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 3: to you exactly why all that made sense, but they

733
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 3: know that it made since, and so I think it

734
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,720
Speaker 3: does speak to a loving God. That is another issue

735
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 3: and a lot of discussion. I've lost loved ones, been

736
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 3: through a lot of tragedy in my life, so I

737
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 3: understand those questions, and I've come out in my theological

738
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:05,879
Speaker 3: journey would belieing that God really does love us, even

739
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 3: though there's a lot of horrible things that happened in

740
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 3: the world.

741
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 1: Amen. And he loves children too. We see that distinctly

742
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: with Jesus in an age when children were not valued

743
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 1: on the same level. Even his disciples are like, why

744
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: are you talking to children? So on that note, I

745
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 1: think you had one more account you wanted to share.

746
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 3: Sure, while I mentioned briefly a couple of them. But

747
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 3: I lived in Slovakia for a while and had a

748
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 3: colleague that was a missionary in the Ukraine, and I

749
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 3: noticed in his prayer letter he mentioned that his child

750
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 3: had died when he had made a little fort in

751
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 3: a snow bank and the snow bank fell on him. Died,

752
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 3: was resuscitated in the ambulance, and I thought, okay, And

753
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 3: he mentioned that he had had some kind of experience

754
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 3: on the other side. So I talked with this child

755
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 3: on the phone, and it was amazing. He went to

756
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 3: the other side. He felt perfectly fine, and his deceased

757
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 3: Saint Bernard was bounding in to greet him, and it

758
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 3: was just a precious story. But as I asked him,

759
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 3: he just he could. It was almost like he was

760
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 3: playing back the video in his mind.

761
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:16,399
Speaker 2: I said.

762
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 3: He said, oh, there were these beautiful flowers over there,

763
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 3: and I said, well, what colors were they? And he

764
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 3: told me specifically the colors he saw the ones he

765
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 3: didn't see, and then he said there were other colors

766
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 3: that I've never seen before, but I can't even describe those.

767
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 3: So it was a powerful experience in this child's life.

768
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 3: Again coming from somebody that I know and trust. Why

769
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 3: would they be lying to me about that. There's a

770
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:45,399
Speaker 3: dissertation I quote. Angela Ethier wrote a dissertation for her

771
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 3: nursing degree, so her doctoral work on children and death,

772
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 3: and so she interviewed a lot of parents who had

773
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 3: lost their children, and in that there was a story

774
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 3: about a parent who was in with her child. Her

775
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 3: child kind of gingerly asked, mother, do you see the

776
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 3: angels in the room, And her mother, wanting to have

777
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 3: a feel good moment, said, well, yes, I see them.

778
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 3: And the child says, what do they look like? And

779
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 3: she said the mother said, well, the one I see

780
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 3: has great big wings, and she says, mom, you don't

781
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 3: have to lie to me.

782
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 2: They don't have wings.

783
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 3: And so the wisdom of children, and that's something that

784
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:38,359
Speaker 3: doctor Barrett wrote in his book, Sir William Barrett deathbed visions.

785
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 3: He was collecting stories of deathbed visions. He was so

786
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 3: great at his work in physics and his discoveries that

787
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 3: he was knight at Sir William Barrett, very reputable source.

788
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,399
Speaker 3: But he said that typically when he saw children, that

789
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 3: stories of children who had died, that angels didn't have wings,

790
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 3: which is impressive from a Christian standpoint, because children, if

791
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 3: they're getting their theology from little children's books and children's stories,

792
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 3: all the stories of Jesus and the angels, you know

793
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 3: at his birth, all the angels have wings, but the

794
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 3: Bible never says that they had wings, right. I mean,

795
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,880
Speaker 3: there's some angelic creatures in the Old Testament that had wings,

796
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 3: but they're never called angels. So it's like what you

797
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 3: would think a child would be expecting doesn't happen.

798
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 2: So these are powerful stories.

799
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 3: And maybe I should mention Diane Comp too in her

800
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 3: book and I would highly recommend it. A Window to

801
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,720
Speaker 3: Heaven Again by Dane Comp. She's the one who teaches

802
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 3: or taught at Yale. She's retired now Professor emeritus, and

803
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 3: she gives cases where the children were dying.

804
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 2: This is when she was an atheist and she was

805
00:44:57,800 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 2: watching these children die.

806
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 3: One child, just right before she died, she just raised

807
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 3: up in her bed and she said, Mimmy, the angels.

808
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:11,240
Speaker 3: Can you hear them singing? I've never heard such beautiful singing.

809
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,240
Speaker 3: She was ecstatic, and then she laid down and died.

810
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 3: I mean just immediately. You can't make up that. I mean,

811
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 3: what's going on? And you a witness, you know, when

812
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 3: you're in a court situation, you're evaluating testimony. You look

813
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 3: at people's expressions, how they're saying, what they're saying when

814
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,240
Speaker 3: little children are just as sincere as the world talking

815
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 3: about these things. But Dan comp said something very special.

816
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 3: She said, you couldn't have given the parents.

817
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 2: A greater gift.

818
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:49,240
Speaker 3: Oh at that point, because these parents have the assurance

819
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 3: that their child was going to heaven.

820
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 2: What more could you ask for?

821
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:57,799
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know where she went in her worldview,

822
00:45:57,840 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: but if you're an atheist, it's hard to account for

823
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 1: a gift. What evolution gives you a gift like that

824
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,959
Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense. But if there's a gift giver,

825
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: a god who cares about comforting people, it makes sense.

826
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 1: It's the kind of thing that we might expect and

827
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 1: fits within a certain worldview. It's not surprising. It gave

828
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: me goosebumps, and it's beautiful. It's not surprising from an

829
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:22,280
Speaker 1: epistemic standpoint, which is important.

830
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 3: And by the way, doctor comp did become a believer

831
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 3: in God, became a strong Christian.

832
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 2: And she's got.

833
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 3: Verses throughout this book. I haven't think nineteen nineties or whatever.

834
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 3: It's probably ninety nine cents on Amazon.

835
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 2: Get it.

836
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 3: I mean, here is a Yale professor talking about the

837
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 3: experiences she's seen. I think that's a great source.

838
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 1: So people know you have a Yale professor here, you

839
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 1: have Sir William Barrett, who is knighted Doctor Morris. You're

840
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 1: not pulling from just studies and random stories on YouTube.

841
00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: You've done careful work again, which is why I keep

842
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 1: want you back. Now. There are some objections I do

843
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:08,359
Speaker 1: want you to address related to children having NDEs, and

844
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 1: one of them comes from Michael Shermer, who I've had

845
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 1: debates with multiple times. Really a joy engaging him, thoughtful,

846
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 1: and he's pushed back on the evidence of near death

847
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 1: experiences even though he had a kind of experience that

848
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 1: doesn't really fit within his worldview. But that's the story

849
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,879
Speaker 1: for another time. You and I have discussed a fun story. Yes,

850
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 1: and he said, there are billions of people in the world.

851
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: With that many people having dreams and hallucinations, surely the

852
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 1: odds are that some will have hallucinations that correspond to

853
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 1: reality and fantastic ways. People just don't understand large numbers. Now, basically,

854
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 1: this is a common naturalistic move to increase our probabilistic resources.

855
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 1: So the origin of life incredibly remote, but if you

856
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:55,320
Speaker 1: have enough universes or enough planets and enough opportunity and time,

857
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,919
Speaker 1: life could emerge. It's the same kind of move. So, yes,

858
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 1: these are surprising from the bottom up. If you include

859
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 1: the number of people who have lived in the accounts

860
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 1: that people tell, we shouldn't be surprised that we have

861
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 1: a few anomalies, so to speak, that we can't explain.

862
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 3: Sure well, Number one, there are black swans in science

863
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 3: where somebody will say, you know, all you need is

864
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 3: one black swan to overturn the theory that all swans

865
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 3: are white. And sure enough, that's what some European explorers

866
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 3: found when they used to make little jokes about, you know,

867
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 3: white swans, because all swans they knew were white. And

868
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 3: then somebody goes down to Australia and finds a black one.

869
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 3: It only takes one good observation to overturn a theory

870
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 3: that all swans are white. Well, what naturalists are saying

871
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 3: is everything is naturalistic. Okay, Well, all you need to

872
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 3: find is one thing that is not consistent obviously with naturalism,

873
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 3: or that they say the body. When the body dies,

874
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 3: the person dies. Okay, well that's something. But when you

875
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 3: have these people giving testimony after testimony in a situation

876
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:12,439
Speaker 3: that in a court of law they would be very

877
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 3: believable saying that they were on the other side visiting

878
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 3: with deceased relatives, that sounds like these relatives died years ago,

879
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 3: that's after their life, which sounds a lot like the

880
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 3: after life to me. And so I think we have

881
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:30,399
Speaker 3: great evidence, not just okay, so children, Well I don't

882
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,839
Speaker 3: have statistics on children, but I have a lot of

883
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 3: great accounts from authorities who have seen a lot of

884
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 3: children in death situations and have collected them. But when

885
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 3: you look at the near death experiences in general, four

886
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 3: to six percent of the population eighty percent to eighty

887
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 3: eight percent having these visions at death. This is not

888
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:53,839
Speaker 3: a one out of a billion thing, as Shermer's talking

889
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 3: about and by the way, Shermer made one statement. I

890
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 3: did read his book where he was arguing again the afterlife,

891
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 3: and he said, one reason that we know that there's

892
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 3: not an afterlife is that when as the body's dying

893
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 3: from diseases like meningitis and Alzheimer's that are destroying the brain,

894
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 3: that they don't get better, they don't recover their ability to.

895
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 2: Have conscious experiences.

896
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 3: Well, obviously he didn't study terminal lucidity, because we have

897
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:25,760
Speaker 3: good evidence that at death, a lot of these people,

898
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 3: including some children, they're at death, maybe their brains have

899
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:32,280
Speaker 3: been eaten away by a tumor not just pushed aside,

900
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 3: but actually eaten away and then become perfectly conscious. That

901
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 3: speaks against Shermer's contention that once your brain is gone, that.

902
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 2: You can't have experiences with your mind.

903
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 1: So the number of cases we have and the specificity

904
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:53,360
Speaker 1: of those cases counters the idea that we can just

905
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:56,240
Speaker 1: look at so many people who die, and the number

906
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 1: of possibilities, the number of cases that we could document

907
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 1: from reputable sources, and the specificity they give cannot be

908
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 1: wiped away by just referring to some apparent large number

909
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 1: all right. With that said, let's go a couple more.

910
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 1: Sometimes skeptics will pose it that these are the results

911
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 1: of a developing brain undergoing stress. So either it's a

912
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 1: young brain, it's developing, it's expanding pretty radically, and sometimes

913
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 1: this will be coupled with kids just creative imaginations, which

914
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 1: we all know have kids. Kids have creative imaginations, and

915
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 1: they have dragon friends, and they have battles they fought in.

916
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 1: So how do we know that the best explanation is

917
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 1: not some developing brain or just kids kind of telling

918
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 1: stories like kids do.

919
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:45,439
Speaker 3: Sure, I mean some even adults believe that Spider Man

920
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 3: is real, you know, so we do have to consider

921
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 3: that as a hypothesis. But as Bruce, doctor Bruce Grayson said,

922
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,400
Speaker 3: who's taught his whole most of his adult life at

923
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 3: the University of Virginia Department of Perceptual Studies, he says,

924
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 3: near death experiences sound pretty naturalistic as long as you

925
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:09,880
Speaker 3: ignore all the supernatural elements. And I think, yeah, people,

926
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 3: there are things that happen at death to the brain

927
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 3: that cause some people to hallucinate, some people to think

928
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 3: that bugs are crawling all over them, or have all

929
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 3: kinds of distressing things go on. But these are very

930
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 3: different from a near death or deathbed experience.

931
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:29,799
Speaker 2: From what they're experiencing.

932
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:32,759
Speaker 3: There, they're very lucid. They'll just talk to you like

933
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,359
Speaker 3: we're talking to each other right now. And you say,

934
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 3: this is a real intelligent person that's speaking very lucidly

935
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:43,280
Speaker 3: about what's going on. And then anything about a dying

936
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:48,399
Speaker 3: brain doesn't explain how how this child knew before the

937
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:50,880
Speaker 3: train hit them that they were going to die. It

938
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:53,799
Speaker 3: didn't doesn't tell how the little girl knew what her

939
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 3: family was doing at their houses. It's just not a

940
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 3: sufficient explanation.

941
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 1: Another responsors that parents or some other authority or filtering

942
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:05,719
Speaker 1: these cases to kids. Like I mentioned earlier, there's at

943
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:08,439
Speaker 1: least one prominent best selling book I guess the name

944
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 1: was Malarkey. That's the first I've heard that with some

945
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: level of irony of a child having a near death

946
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 1: experience that the publisher pulled and said it didn't happen.

947
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:20,759
Speaker 1: So how do we know there's not some kind of

948
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 1: hidden information or mechanism giving this to kids before they

949
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 1: share their accounts.

950
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,879
Speaker 3: So in none of these illustrations that I've given were

951
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 3: the parents, you know, writing books about it or have

952
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 3: any ulterior motives for doing it, and think about doctor

953
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 3: Morris was interviewing the child or self, not the parents,

954
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:48,720
Speaker 3: about what was going on, and typically these are doctor

955
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:53,279
Speaker 3: koober Ross. She was actually talking directly to the children themselves.

956
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 3: So I don't think it can be just parents making

957
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:56,720
Speaker 3: up things.

958
00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:00,120
Speaker 1: So talking to kids themselves helps weed that out. So

959
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 1: there's a certain chain of command in some of these

960
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 1: cases where there's just no time for parent input from

961
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 1: the accident, near death experience to the report. Parents come

962
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 1: subsequent to that. So unless you say the parents fed them,

963
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 1: had the kid fed them the information, had them nearly

964
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 1: die and drown and then come out of it to

965
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 1: tell this story, which is far less believable to me,

966
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:27,800
Speaker 1: the possibility to impart that information at least many of

967
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 1: the cases is.

968
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 3: Not extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. I mean, hey, maybe

969
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 3: these kids have an international conspiracy together to tell stories

970
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 3: that all have the same results. Okay, but that what

971
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 3: an extraordinary You know, the parents all made this up?

972
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:51,560
Speaker 3: But wait a minute, was the kids interviewed? These naturalistic

973
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 3: explanations are just quite extraordinary and seem to have no

974
00:54:56,719 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 3: data behind them. These studies have been done for the

975
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 3: past fifty years, particularly on near death experiences, and the

976
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 3: naturalistic theories just do not fit the data that the

977
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 3: best researchers have gotten. And some of these researchers have

978
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 3: been researching since their early years in medicine, and today,

979
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:19,480
Speaker 3: you know, fifty years later, they're saying, yeah, these people

980
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 3: came out of their bodies. So you've got to match

981
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 3: the data infer to to you know, to the hypothesis

982
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 3: that makes the best sense of the data.

983
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 1: That's why worldview is so important and critical here that

984
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 1: if you bring a theistic worldview, an openness to the afterlife,

985
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 1: these stories don't surprise me. They fit with what I

986
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 1: believe it's true. But what is interesting is you have

987
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 1: people like Pim von Nmel who I've interviewed, Evan Alexandrew,

988
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:52,840
Speaker 1: who I've interviewed, committed leading scientists, medical doctors in a

989
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:59,319
Speaker 1: materialist worldview, game changing experiences they had or saw shifted

990
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 1: their world in light of the near death experiences. So

991
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:06,719
Speaker 1: when we are confronted with some of that challenges our worldview,

992
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 1: either we can dismiss it or we can shift our worldview.

993
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,879
Speaker 1: And that's what I'm hoping skeptics might do when they

994
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 1: see this, given the number of cases and the unique, evidential,

995
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 1: just fascinating value of children, I'm hoping that might give

996
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 1: them at least some pause now.

997
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 3: Coming out of that, Yeah, I think an interesting thing

998
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 3: is that some some atheists who have not read in

999
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:36,760
Speaker 3: this area will say, oh, well, this is just Christian

1000
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:40,320
Speaker 3: researchers trying to affirm their worldviews. But as you mentioned,

1001
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 3: people like von Lameo, doctor Sebom, these others that doctor Grayson,

1002
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:54,239
Speaker 3: these were not evangelical Christians from the start trying to

1003
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 3: defend their worldview.

1004
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 2: They were startled.

1005
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:01,360
Speaker 3: It was like they came into this thing kicking and screaming,

1006
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:06,160
Speaker 3: not believing that these were really experiences with the afterlife.

1007
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 3: And then after their study and after a whole lifetime

1008
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 3: of studying, these are some of the best researchers they

1009
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 3: believe these people were coming out of their bodies.

1010
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 2: Now.

1011
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 3: Interestingly, the atheists that I see arguing against near death experiences,

1012
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 3: they were already outspoken atheists before they ever got into

1013
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 3: near death experiences.

1014
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 2: So it looks to me like there's a lot.

1015
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:32,840
Speaker 3: More potential for them to be placing their worldview over

1016
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 3: this and seeing it through their lens rather than being.

1017
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 2: Able to look objectively at the evidence.

1018
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 1: Perhaps the most common objection I hear, and this is

1019
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 1: with say, the evidence surrounding historical Jesus, more so in

1020
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 1: the area of intelligent design is just God of the gaps.

1021
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 1: There's some facts that we can't fully explain, we don't know,

1022
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 1: but rather than saying God did this, let's allow science

1023
00:57:56,240 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 1: to advance and eventually we'll discover a reason. So positing

1024
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:04,400
Speaker 1: his soul, posing an afterlife is kind of a God

1025
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 1: of the gaps. That number one prevents science from moving

1026
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 1: forward because now you say God did it, so there's

1027
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 1: no reason to probe further for a naturalistic explanation, and

1028
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 1: it posits an unjustified pointer towards something beyond science. So

1029
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:22,640
Speaker 1: what's your take on this being a God of the

1030
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 1: gaps kind of argument?

1031
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:28,400
Speaker 3: Sure, well, that's interesting because Dr Moody from the start,

1032
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 3: if you read his books, it's almost frustrating.

1033
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 2: Doctor Kubler.

1034
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:34,120
Speaker 3: Ross would speak with doctor Moody, who did the first

1035
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 3: really popular study of spring nineteen seventy five is when

1036
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 3: he published his book Life After Life, and he would

1037
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 3: he would give all this stuff that was very consistent

1038
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 3: with theism and with the afterlife as he described, and

1039
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:50,919
Speaker 3: then would come to the end and he would say

1040
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 3: something like, but of course these are just anecdotes, like Kubler,

1041
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:56,760
Speaker 3: Ross would be, what what.

1042
00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:57,479
Speaker 2: Are you talking about?

1043
00:58:57,520 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 3: I mean, this is really powerful evidence. And I asked

1044
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:03,080
Speaker 3: for movie one time on the phone. I said, why

1045
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:05,240
Speaker 3: is it that it took you so long until your

1046
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:09,200
Speaker 3: later years before you finally said, yeah, this is the

1047
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 3: afterlife is the best.

1048
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:11,600
Speaker 2: Explanation, he said.

1049
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 3: I was just I always wanted to be the Socrates

1050
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:16,720
Speaker 3: who was just always doubting, as I was afraid if

1051
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:19,120
Speaker 3: I came to a conclusion that I'd quit searching.

1052
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:22,240
Speaker 2: So he really really resisted.

1053
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 3: That, but finally says, yeah, okay, that's about the afterlife,

1054
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 3: but about the god of the gaps. I love to

1055
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 3: I love to explore caves, particularly wild caves and h

1056
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 3: but I was in a public cave one time and

1057
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 3: a person was showing a formation where uh, it was

1058
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 3: like on a stalagmite hanging down, but there was a

1059
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 3: curved deposit of calcite on it, and they said, we

1060
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:55,160
Speaker 3: we haven't figured out how in the world that happened.

1061
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:58,560
Speaker 3: That just doesn't make sense because drops dropped down and

1062
00:59:58,640 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 3: deposit there.

1063
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 2: Why would it go around.

1064
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 3: And I thought, okay, that's a good illustration if I say, well,

1065
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:08,600
Speaker 3: we don't know how it happened, therefore God made that.

1066
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 2: That would be an example of God of the gaps.

1067
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:13,520
Speaker 3: I'm throwing God in there where really we ought to

1068
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:18,960
Speaker 3: wait on a naturalistic explanation for it. But in these situations,

1069
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 3: this is not just throwing God in as an explanation.

1070
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:27,240
Speaker 3: God is already all over the experience. This little girl said,

1071
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:32,760
Speaker 3: I saw the Heavenly Father, I saw Jesus, I saw angels. Well,

1072
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:35,560
Speaker 3: by the virtue of the fact that it's already a

1073
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:38,800
Speaker 3: part of the experience, that surely gives us the right

1074
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 3: to say, well, here's one hypothesis. Maybe she really saw God,

1075
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 3: the Father and Jesus and angels. Okay, so it deserves

1076
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 3: the right to have a hypothesis. To me, when secular

1077
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:54,640
Speaker 3: people come in and impose their own worldview on this

1078
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:59,160
Speaker 3: and say, okay, well there's got to be a naturalistic explanation.

1079
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 3: Let's just you don't know the naturalistic explanation for NDEs,

1080
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:06,280
Speaker 3: but we should await a naturalistic suggestion, I'd say, well,

1081
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 3: that's called naturalism of the gaps, where you just take

1082
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:13,760
Speaker 3: your naturalistic worldview, and you impose it on whatever you

1083
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 3: see and assume there'll be a naturalistic answer. So if

1084
01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 3: they say, oh, well, we ought to wait and see

1085
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:22,880
Speaker 3: a future evidence, and I'll say, but I can't make

1086
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 3: my decisions on anything with future evidence.

1087
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:28,080
Speaker 2: That's all hypothetical.

1088
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:31,200
Speaker 3: I can only deal with the evidence as I see it,

1089
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:35,000
Speaker 3: and to me, the evidence weighs heavily in the favor

1090
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:36,680
Speaker 3: of the afterlife hypothesis.

1091
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 1: You've written four books on this that people can get

1092
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:43,280
Speaker 1: either on Amazon or you'll email PDFs to them for free,

1093
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 1: which is amazing. You've brought a lot of these books.

1094
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 1: You've researched this a ton. Are there any just final

1095
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:53,120
Speaker 1: remarks related to kids and NDEs or deathbed experiences we

1096
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:55,200
Speaker 1: didn't cover that you want to make or you feel

1097
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 1: like we laid it out there.

1098
01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:00,480
Speaker 3: I'd say, what is it profit of me to gain

1099
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:03,800
Speaker 3: the whole world and lose or forfeit his soul? Jesus

1100
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:05,760
Speaker 3: said that you know, when I was young in my

1101
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 3: spiritual journey, that during my times of faith, that reassured

1102
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:14,720
Speaker 3: me I was going in the right direction. When I

1103
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:19,320
Speaker 3: was going through doubts, it haunted me. But I believe

1104
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:21,960
Speaker 3: that what it shows is that this life isn't all

1105
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 3: there is. Why live for things on this earth that

1106
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 3: don't last. Why chase, you know, climbing up the ladder

1107
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 3: of success, but then finding at the end of your

1108
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 3: life that it was leaning against the wrong wall. That

1109
01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:40,960
Speaker 3: just doesn't make sense when in the light of even

1110
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:43,200
Speaker 3: if you're not a Christian, but just in the light

1111
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 3: of near death and deathbed research showing that there's something

1112
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:49,960
Speaker 3: much more glorious that's offered to us afterwards, and that

1113
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 3: children have preceded us sometimes there and have told us

1114
01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:57,920
Speaker 3: in their transition, oh my goodness, this is where I

1115
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:01,840
Speaker 3: want to go. This is my ultimate home. That's what

1116
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:03,720
Speaker 3: we need to be living for. And if you have

1117
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:07,920
Speaker 3: a lot of uncertainties regarding religion, some of these people

1118
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:13,160
Speaker 3: saw Jesus. I would recommend heavily that you seek Jesus.

1119
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:16,080
Speaker 3: The earliest and best documents we have on him are

1120
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:19,680
Speaker 3: the documents contained in the New Testament. Matthew, Mark Luke,

1121
01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:23,360
Speaker 3: and John the Apostle. Paul was a contemporary of Jesus,

1122
01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 3: born about the same time he wrote about Jesus.

1123
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:27,320
Speaker 2: I'd say go back to.

1124
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:32,080
Speaker 3: These documents if you are searching for reality and spiritual

1125
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:37,360
Speaker 3: things and for meaning in life beyond this material world.

1126
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:41,440
Speaker 3: Seek Jesus, and yes, read my books. I've tried to

1127
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:45,560
Speaker 3: do the best I could on researching the best research

1128
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 3: and giving it to you in a way that's understandable

1129
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:51,400
Speaker 3: and actually readable. So I think I've given people a

1130
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:53,960
Speaker 3: way to search with plenty of documentation.

1131
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:56,320
Speaker 1: If you want to go further, you definitely have. And

1132
01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 1: I had one last question for in somebody as we've

1133
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:02,720
Speaker 1: answered this, If somebody says, hey, can I talk to

1134
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 1: you outside? I have an experience to share with you.

1135
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:10,960
Speaker 1: Hear somebody say something conversation that suggests a near death experience.

1136
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:14,280
Speaker 1: Where you talk with a kid that starts talking about

1137
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:17,480
Speaker 1: certain things you might be tempted to write off as

1138
01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:20,400
Speaker 1: just imagination, But now that you've heard this, you think

1139
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:24,480
Speaker 1: maybe they had an experience that was a near death experience.

1140
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:29,320
Speaker 1: How should we respond just pastorally and practically to people

1141
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:32,480
Speaker 1: who have that kind of experience.

1142
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 3: Biblically, be quick to hear and slow to speak, amen

1143
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:40,960
Speaker 3: ask them questions. I hate it when somebody gets back

1144
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:44,520
Speaker 3: from the mission field the people I'll hear a report

1145
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:46,960
Speaker 3: and then never ask them anything else about it. This

1146
01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:50,000
Speaker 3: may be the most important thing in the person's life. Well,

1147
01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:53,640
Speaker 3: these people have been to the other side. I'm calling

1148
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:55,600
Speaker 3: it the other side. I don't want to talk about

1149
01:04:55,800 --> 01:04:58,800
Speaker 3: as if it's the final New Heavens and New Earth

1150
01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:01,680
Speaker 3: or something like that. They've been on the other side,

1151
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:04,480
Speaker 3: They've talked to the deceased, they they've had maybe had

1152
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:07,439
Speaker 3: a life review. This is by far the most important

1153
01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:10,360
Speaker 3: thing that's ever happened to them. Talk to them about it.

1154
01:05:10,600 --> 01:05:14,200
Speaker 3: Let's listen to them, ask them more questions. What I

1155
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:17,240
Speaker 3: find is that often they'll kind of just say, well,

1156
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:20,880
Speaker 3: I had an experience like that once. They're just testing

1157
01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:23,960
Speaker 3: you to see, okay, if you're going to change the subject,

1158
01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:26,520
Speaker 3: they're not going to go there. Some of the people

1159
01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:29,080
Speaker 3: that tell me that this about their experiences will say,

1160
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:31,320
Speaker 3: you're the only person I've ever told about this. They're

1161
01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:34,480
Speaker 3: so so afraid people will think they're crazy.

1162
01:05:35,040 --> 01:05:37,000
Speaker 2: So ask them more questions.

1163
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:38,680
Speaker 3: Talk to them and say, you know, I'd like to

1164
01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:41,200
Speaker 3: talk more about this in the future, would.

1165
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:42,240
Speaker 2: You mind talking to me more?

1166
01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:44,800
Speaker 3: And what you'll find is this is just a wonderful

1167
01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:49,520
Speaker 3: ministry opportunity because typically they haven't found anybody that wants

1168
01:05:49,520 --> 01:05:52,520
Speaker 3: to carry on a conversation about this, or you could say,

1169
01:05:52,560 --> 01:05:54,600
Speaker 3: you know, I need to study this more. As I

1170
01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 3: research and read more on it, can I come back

1171
01:05:57,640 --> 01:06:00,200
Speaker 3: to you and talk to you about their experience so off,

1172
01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:06,160
Speaker 3: And I've been shocked at people in my church that

1173
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:08,480
Speaker 3: that I'll begin talking to about this and they'll say, oh,

1174
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:12,000
Speaker 3: let me tell you about my experience, and I'll talk

1175
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:14,919
Speaker 3: to them there. But then I'll write down some more

1176
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:17,640
Speaker 3: thoughts about it that I want to ask, and I'll say, okay,

1177
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:21,920
Speaker 3: well is this like fairly real? Was this as real

1178
01:06:22,120 --> 01:06:26,200
Speaker 3: as you know, a vivid dream? What degree of reality

1179
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:28,640
Speaker 3: was it? And They'll come back and say, oh, it was.

1180
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:30,760
Speaker 2: It was real. It was just.

1181
01:06:32,200 --> 01:06:37,520
Speaker 3: As us talking here today. And I asked them those questions,

1182
01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:40,560
Speaker 3: and it still to this day it just seems sends

1183
01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:42,880
Speaker 3: shivers down my spine when I have people I know

1184
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:47,280
Speaker 3: and trust get them talking. Listen, We've got a lot

1185
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:48,880
Speaker 3: to learn from these people, Steve.

1186
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:51,120
Speaker 1: There's a lot of reasons why I enjoy having you

1187
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:52,720
Speaker 1: on as guests. One of the things you do is

1188
01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:54,920
Speaker 1: you go back through as many of the comments as

1189
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:57,880
Speaker 1: you can, and you respond to skeptics as you can

1190
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:01,720
Speaker 1: with questions. You hear people's story, He's give them counsel. So,

1191
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:03,920
Speaker 1: as I've said on some of the previous videos, if

1192
01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:07,000
Speaker 1: people listening had a near death experience, if you saw

1193
01:07:07,080 --> 01:07:11,280
Speaker 1: somebody have a deathbed experience, especially if you had one

1194
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:16,320
Speaker 1: as a child, please share it here. Listroubel interviewed you

1195
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:19,680
Speaker 1: for his book on Seeing the Supernatural, and one of

1196
01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:22,840
Speaker 1: his responses of looking through some of my videos interviewing

1197
01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:26,040
Speaker 1: you was he expected all this criticism and attack, and

1198
01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:30,080
Speaker 1: it was story after story after story of people sharing

1199
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:32,480
Speaker 1: and in many cases saying, this is the first time

1200
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:35,880
Speaker 1: I've shared. Thanks for listening, thanks for giving me a platform.

1201
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:39,240
Speaker 1: So please comment with a story below. We would love

1202
01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:42,080
Speaker 1: to hear your account on this video. Now you and

1203
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:44,800
Speaker 1: I are about to shift because we have about eight

1204
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:47,520
Speaker 1: or ten students in studio that are in a class

1205
01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:51,680
Speaker 1: right now called Afterlife Apologetics that you are teaching with

1206
01:07:51,840 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 1: me here at Top School Theology. Now this will not

1207
01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:57,680
Speaker 1: be aired our interaction, so people listening to this are going,

1208
01:07:57,720 --> 01:07:59,200
Speaker 1: wait a minute, how do I get it in on

1209
01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:01,640
Speaker 1: this In the answer, thus is you join us in

1210
01:08:01,720 --> 01:08:05,480
Speaker 1: theme Apologize program here at Talbot School of Theology. This

1211
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:08,600
Speaker 1: is a class we want to teach again. So if

1212
01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:12,240
Speaker 1: you're listening, you're fascinated by this. Pick up Steve's books.

1213
01:08:12,280 --> 01:08:14,720
Speaker 1: That's a great place to start. I've actually just yesterday

1214
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:17,519
Speaker 1: as we're recording this, created a playlist that has all

1215
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:20,720
Speaker 1: of our interviews on near death experiences, as well as

1216
01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:24,759
Speaker 1: saman And von Lamel and Jeffrey Long and John Burke,

1217
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:27,439
Speaker 1: some of the leaders in this. For people who want

1218
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:30,760
Speaker 1: to go back and study, we have crossed almost every

1219
01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:32,920
Speaker 1: t and dotted the eyes and if you have some ideas,

1220
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:36,000
Speaker 1: wait a minute, somebody hasn't done this on near death experiences.

1221
01:08:36,240 --> 01:08:38,439
Speaker 1: Let us know and maybe we'll revisit it if we

1222
01:08:38,439 --> 01:08:40,719
Speaker 1: could do it in a way that would be helpful.

1223
01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:44,200
Speaker 1: Steve always enjoys gives your email one more time. For

1224
01:08:44,280 --> 01:08:46,320
Speaker 1: people who would want a PDF of your boss.

1225
01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:47,280
Speaker 2: Sure the letter J J.

1226
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:51,640
Speaker 3: Steve Miller at gmail dot com and now let me

1227
01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:53,639
Speaker 3: know if you need a copy. I send them out

1228
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:58,120
Speaker 3: and appreciate your candid input. We have good conversations.

1229
01:08:58,320 --> 01:09:01,360
Speaker 1: You're awesome. Thanks brother. Hey, if you enjoyed this show,

1230
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:04,840
Speaker 1: please hit that foll button on your podcast app. Most

1231
01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:07,080
Speaker 1: of you tuning in haven't done this yet, and it

1232
01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:09,960
Speaker 1: makes a huge difference in helping us reach and equip

1233
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:13,120
Speaker 1: more people and build community. And please consider leaving a

1234
01:09:13,280 --> 01:09:17,280
Speaker 1: podcast review. Every review helps. Thanks for listening to The

1235
01:09:17,360 --> 01:09:20,200
Speaker 1: Sean McDowell Show, brought to you by Talbot School of

1236
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:23,680
Speaker 1: Theology at Biola University, where we have on campus and

1237
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:28,000
Speaker 1: online programs and apologetic spiritual formation, marriage and family, Bible

1238
01:09:28,080 --> 01:09:30,240
Speaker 1: and so much more. We would love to train you

1239
01:09:30,360 --> 01:09:33,880
Speaker 1: to more effectively live, teach, and defend the Christian faith

1240
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:36,920
Speaker 1: today and we will see you when the next episode drops.