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Speaker 1: videos each week.

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Speaker 2: I had about five years in recovery at that time,

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Speaker 2: not using drugs or alcohol, but I was still very sick.

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Speaker 2: I was still trapped by a lot of the lies

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Speaker 2: that I had believed I bought myself for a very

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Speaker 2: long time, and some of the choices I was making.

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Speaker 2: Even though I wasn't using drugs and alcohol, I was

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Speaker 2: still trying to escape.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Jesus Calling Podcast. This week, we'll hear

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Speaker 1: from Caroline Bidler, a speaker and recovery advocate who began

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Speaker 1: using alcohol at just eleven years old to numb the

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Speaker 1: pain of a deep sense of loneliness and not belonging.

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Speaker 1: This led to years of addiction, but even after getting sober,

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Speaker 1: Caroline found she was still wrestling with shame, unhealthy patterns,

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Speaker 1: and wounds that hadn't healed. Jonathan Tepper is a founder, author,

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Speaker 1: and strategic thinker whose journey began as a son of

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Speaker 1: missionaries in regions of deep cultural and economic contrast. From

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Speaker 1: his upbringing in Spain by missionaries who sought to help

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Speaker 1: those addicted to heroin all the way to Taiwan and

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Speaker 1: the high stakes world of global finance, he's found himself

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Speaker 1: on a search for truth and fairness. Let's begin with

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Speaker 1: Caroline Bidler's story.

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Speaker 2: My name is Caroline Bibler, and I am passionate about recovery.

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Speaker 2: I'm a woman who identifies as being in long term

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Speaker 2: recovery from addiction and mental health. I've experienced some really

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Speaker 2: tough things in life that God has redeemed, and I

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Speaker 2: am just excited about sharing the hope and joy that

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Speaker 2: I've found through recovery and through my faith journey with

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Speaker 2: other women, specifically who are going through similar things. As

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Speaker 2: a child I was really lonely, and I just remember

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Speaker 2: feeling really strange, really different, and that I'd never really belonged.

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Speaker 2: When I was about eleven years old, I had my

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Speaker 2: first drink of alcohol, and I remember I was sitting

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Speaker 2: outside my grandpa's house he spent a lot of time

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Speaker 2: with my brother and I when we were growing up,

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Speaker 2: and was sitting under this tree. And I remember cracking

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Speaker 2: open this beer can and had snuck it out of

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Speaker 2: his fridge. He kept up six pack there for when

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Speaker 2: my dad would pick us up, and you know, I

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Speaker 2: cracked open this can and I took a drink. And

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Speaker 2: when I see eleven year old girls today, I'm like, Wow,

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Speaker 2: they're babies, you know, their babies. And I was a

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Speaker 2: baby sitting under this tree searching for something to help

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Speaker 2: me feel better. And I was searching for something outside

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Speaker 2: of myself to ease the pain and discomfort I felt.

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Speaker 2: And I didn't grow up a Christian. I didn't grow

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Speaker 2: up even going to church on holidays. I had no

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Speaker 2: name for who God was. But at the same time,

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Speaker 2: I just remember knowing that He was there. And I

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Speaker 2: just feel like from even an early age, I was

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Speaker 2: seeking that relationship and I was seeking a connection with God,

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Speaker 2: and looking back on my struggle with addiction and substance

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Speaker 2: you starting as a kid, I can see how even then,

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Speaker 2: my desire to escape and kind of soothe myself through

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Speaker 2: substance you was really me seeking God. I was wanting peace,

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Speaker 2: looking for comfort, but just doing that in the wrong

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Speaker 2: way and looking in the wrong direction. It was when

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Speaker 2: I was in high school first time I went to

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Speaker 2: addiction treatment, I learned that recovery doesn't happen in isolation.

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Speaker 2: My family had no idea how to show up for

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Speaker 2: me and support me. I mean, my substance use went

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Speaker 2: from drinking alcohol as a little girl to using hard

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Speaker 2: drugs and just being in the pit of really significant

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Speaker 2: substance use disorder by fifteen, and so my parents were

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Speaker 2: at a loss. They didn't know what to do. And

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Speaker 2: it was interesting how I saw my addiction wasn't just

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Speaker 2: destroying me, it was hurting them. It was hurting everyone

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Speaker 2: around me. My friendships totally destroyed. My addiction was impacting

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Speaker 2: how I connected, or better didn't connect with other people.

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Speaker 2: I was just so wrapped up in my own experience

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Speaker 2: and what I was going through on my own struggle,

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Speaker 2: I wasn't able to connect with others, and so that

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Speaker 2: early on I saw how addiction impacted the family. It

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Speaker 2: wasn't until I started walking in longer term recovery that

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Speaker 2: I saw how me showing up as a sober, healthy,

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Speaker 2: growing person impacted people in my life, in my own

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Speaker 2: family who struggled with substance use. Just my presence showed

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Speaker 2: people there's another way to live. One of the things

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Speaker 2: I'm really passionate about talking about is the fact that

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Speaker 2: addiction recovery is about more than sobriety. It's about more

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Speaker 2: than stopping something. I think recovery is a deep experience

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Speaker 2: that we can go through of not just physical healing

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Speaker 2: and emotional healing, but spiritual healing and formation. A moment

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Speaker 2: in time, for me, I think that I really came

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Speaker 2: to feel that I actually had five years sober, so

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Speaker 2: I had about five years in recovery at that time,

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Speaker 2: not using drugs or alcohol. But I was still very sick.

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Speaker 2: I was still trapped by a lot of the lies

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Speaker 2: that I had believed about myself for a very long time.

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Speaker 2: Just felt this shame and just this weight and some

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Speaker 2: of the choices I was making, even though I wasn't

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Speaker 2: using drugs and alcohol. I was still trying to escape.

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Speaker 2: I was still that little girl under the tree seeking

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Speaker 2: for something other than God. And I did that through

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Speaker 2: food and really unhealthy relationships and other types of toxic choices,

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Speaker 2: and was really still hurting myself. And when I had

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Speaker 2: five years in recovery, I'd gone back to school to

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Speaker 2: study social work so that I could help serve women better.

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Speaker 2: And through that, it was almost as if a mirror

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Speaker 2: was held up to me because I was able to

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Speaker 2: see all of those places that I still needed real depeeling.

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Speaker 2: You know, imagine a young girl using drugs and alcohol.

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Speaker 2: Some really bad things happened to me because of my

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Speaker 2: selfistence use and more traumas just kind of layered on

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Speaker 2: top of themselves. I've really learned that I need to

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Speaker 2: focus on my mental health and I need to look

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Speaker 2: at how my physical health needs to be cared for

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Speaker 2: in recovery, and I need to take care of and

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Speaker 2: tend my spiritual health and formation and growth. Hope and

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Speaker 2: connection are felt deeply within communities of recovery. What we

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Speaker 2: know from the research is that when our loved ones

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Speaker 2: have hope for us, have hope that we will heal

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Speaker 2: and find addiction recovery, we are more likely to. That

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Speaker 2: is a powerful statement, and that is a powerful way

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Speaker 2: that I think God reveals Hope isn't just some feeling.

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Speaker 2: And then the other piece is connection. I mean, we

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Speaker 2: know from the research and our own experience that the

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Speaker 2: number one way to help people struggling with addiction is

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Speaker 2: to connect them with people with a similar life experience.

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Speaker 2: My own experience, I went through such loneliness and isolation

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Speaker 2: as a little girl, you know, I talked about being

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Speaker 2: under that tree, you know, drinking that beer. Such loneliness.

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Speaker 2: But through recovery and through this profound connection and fellowship,

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Speaker 2: I felt belonging. Addiction is almost this crisis of loneliness,

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Speaker 2: and a way to address it isn't just through treatment

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Speaker 2: for substance use, and it isn't just making sure our

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Speaker 2: loved ones are abstinate or sober. It's connecting them and

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Speaker 2: making sure they know that being connected in community is

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Speaker 2: as hewing as any other type of treatment. Having a

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Speaker 2: sense of belonging is just as helpful. So those two

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Speaker 2: pieceas hope and belonging. Hope and connection are so important

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Speaker 2: when we're talking about how people can heal from addiction,

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Speaker 2: not just themselves as individuals, but as families. I think

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Speaker 2: a lot of families are really afraid that they're going

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Speaker 2: to get something wrong when they're trying to show up

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Speaker 2: and support their loved one struggling with addiction. There have

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Speaker 2: been terms that have been out there for decades around

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Speaker 2: this issue for families, including terms like tough love, or

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Speaker 2: enabling or even codependency. And I think some of these

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Speaker 2: terms and these ideas have been to use a really

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Speaker 2: strong word, But I'm going to use the strong word

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Speaker 2: weaponized against families because it only adds to these feelings

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Speaker 2: of inadequacy and shame and like we're doing it wrong

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Speaker 2: and we're not showing up in the right way. When

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Speaker 2: all families really want to do with love. We really

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Speaker 2: want to just love the person in our life who's struggling.

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Speaker 2: And so I think when we label things, we create fear.

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Speaker 2: So as a loved one, I might be afraid that

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Speaker 2: my showing up will not be helping but actually harming them.

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Speaker 2: I might show up and say, well, you know, what

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Speaker 2: if I take them grocery shopping, or if I answer

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Speaker 2: the phone or if I text back. What if I'm

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Speaker 2: enabling them? What if these actions are actually going to

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Speaker 2: cause them to use I want to encourage families and

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Speaker 2: the research. Actually I'm a researcher at heart. The research

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Speaker 2: actually shows that showing up and loving in sometimes even

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Speaker 2: the most simple basic ways, So meeting basic needs, whether

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Speaker 2: that's buying someone food or taking them to a meeting,

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Speaker 2: or making sure they have a safe place to sleep

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Speaker 2: at night. I think we need too, as loved ones,

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Speaker 2: like stop being afraid of having those uncomfortable, maybe sometimes

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Speaker 2: even awkward conversations. And if you aren't feeling led to

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Speaker 2: be like, hey, I concerned you might be using drugs

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Speaker 2: or alcohol, Like can we talk about it? Just saying hey,

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Speaker 2: like I notice you seem a little different lately, Like

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Speaker 2: I'm here for you. Do you want to talk about it?

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Speaker 2: You know what's going on with you? Letting people know

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Speaker 2: you care and that you notice something's going on goes

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Speaker 2: a long way, because again, addiction kind of breeds and

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Speaker 2: increases and gets stronger, more distructive in isolation, and where

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Speaker 2: we can shine some light on what's going on, that's

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Speaker 2: where God can come in and that healing can happen.

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Speaker 2: There are three main things that I always encourage loved

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Speaker 2: ones to do. If you have someone in your life

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Speaker 2: who's struggling with addiction. Number one, lead with compassion. So

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Speaker 2: instead of asking accusatory questions or really always wanting to

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Speaker 2: know like are you using? Are you sober? Are you clean?

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Speaker 2: Being curious and asking open ended questions like how can

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Speaker 2: I support you? How are you feeling today? Just letting

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Speaker 2: your loved one know that you're showing up and doing

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Speaker 2: that in a compassionate, empathetic and caring way can make

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Speaker 2: all the difference. Number two, it's so important to get

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Speaker 2: educated about not just what addiction is, but what recovery is.

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Speaker 2: Learning evidence based strategies and ways to show up that

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Speaker 2: actually help and not harm can be pivotal. And lastly,

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Speaker 2: number three, having options ready is key. Research shows us

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Speaker 2: that there's a really small window of time if someone

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Speaker 2: is struggling with addiction or substance use disorder. There's a

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Speaker 2: small window of time when they say like I need help.

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Speaker 2: And you may experience this in your own life. If

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Speaker 2: you're wanting to change a habit or behavior or struggling

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Speaker 2: with something, we have this moment of realization or God

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Speaker 2: brings us to this realization of oh my gosh, I

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Speaker 2: want to change right now? What families need to do

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Speaker 2: is have options ready immediately, like right now. Have that

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Speaker 2: list of places, whether that's addiction treatment, mental health treatment,

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Speaker 2: support groups, have that list ready. And one of the

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Speaker 2: other things that I do in my day job, I

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Speaker 2: work for recovery dot Com, so I always tell folks

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Speaker 2: check it out. It's an awesome online resource where you

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Speaker 2: can search for options for your loved one, you can

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Speaker 2: compare them, and you can connect directly with the human being,

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Speaker 2: so you can have a list ready when your loved

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Speaker 2: one is like, hey, I need help right now. So

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Speaker 2: those three things I think will go a long way

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Speaker 2: in helping equip families who might have a loved one

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Speaker 2: that's struggling and they want to know what they can

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Speaker 2: do to support. The best thing that families can do

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Speaker 2: when their loved one is struggling is lead with love

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Speaker 2: and lead with compassion. Just for today, one day at

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Speaker 2: a time, in this moment, we're given this gift of

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Speaker 2: our loved ones healing. Let's enjoy that. Because it's such

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Speaker 2: a gift. It is so important to connect with God daily.

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Speaker 2: And I have to say yes, one hundred percent, Jesus

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Speaker 2: calling is a life saver. And even today I get messages.

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Speaker 2: I'm a part of this Facebook group. Women are posting

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Speaker 2: all the time the daily reflection for Jesus, calling I'm

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Speaker 2: getting it for this friend, this friend, this Facebook group

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Speaker 2: for women in recovery. This devotional has been so important

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Speaker 2: and I have gifted it to many a mentee for

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Speaker 2: the years. I think one of the gifts that recovery

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Speaker 2: shares with us as we go through, those of us

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Speaker 2: with lived experience, is this need for a daily practice,

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Speaker 2: daily rhythm of not just reflection, but prayer and deep devotion.

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Speaker 2: Most of the people I know in recovery, like we

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Speaker 2: are taught that's how you start your day, similar to

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Speaker 2: if you learn that as you grew up in the church.

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Speaker 2: Like we start our day in prayer, we start our

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Speaker 2: day in the Word. We start our day really reflecting

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Speaker 2: on and connected to what it means to be saved

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Speaker 2: and what it means to be given this gift of life.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the gifts that recovery brings, one

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Speaker 2: of the many, is this gift of us being able

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Speaker 2: to realize our utter lead and dependence on God right away,

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Speaker 2: Like there is no pretense, there is no pretending, there

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Speaker 2: is no thought that we can just start our day.

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Speaker 2: How we want to start it, No, because if we do,

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Speaker 2: we know where that can be. And it honestly feels

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Speaker 2: like the pits of hell sometimes when you're in active addiction.

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Speaker 2: So I think this daily practice and this daily rhythm,

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Speaker 2: especially for women, is so so important. And to do

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Speaker 2: that grounded in scripture and beautiful reflections that we can

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Speaker 2: all connect with. I mean, what an amazing way to

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Speaker 2: start today. I'm reading from Jesus Listens, May seventeenth, Comforting God.

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Speaker 2: I love to hear you whispering in my mind. Do

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Speaker 2: not be afraid, for I am with you. Don't be discouraged,

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Speaker 2: for I am your God. These loving words are like

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Speaker 2: a warm blanket wrapped around me, sheltering me from the

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Speaker 2: coldness of fear and discouragement. When trouble is stalking me,

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Speaker 2: remind me to grip your hand tightly and stay in

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Speaker 2: communication with you. I can trust and not be afraid

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Speaker 2: because you are my strength and song. Your powerful presence

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Speaker 2: is with me always. I face nothing alone. I'm grateful

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Speaker 2: that you have promised to strengthen me and help me.

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Speaker 2: Your strong hand supports me in both good and bad times.

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Speaker 2: When things are going smoothly in my life. I may

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Speaker 2: be less attentive to your faithful presence, but when I'm

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Speaker 2: walking through the valley of the shadow of death, I'm

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Speaker 2: profoundly aware of my need for you. At such times,

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Speaker 2: holding onto your hand keeps me standing and enables me

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Speaker 2: to put one foot in front of the other as

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Speaker 2: I seek to endure adversity in trusting dependence on you.

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Speaker 2: Please bless me with your peace and joy, in your presence,

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Speaker 2: in your dependable name Jesus.

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Speaker 1: To learn more about Caroline Bidler, visit www dot Caroline

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Speaker 1: Bidler dot com and be sure to check out her

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Speaker 1: new book, When You Love Someone in Recovery, a hopeful

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Speaker 1: guide to understanding addiction. At your favorite retailer. Stay tuned

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Speaker 1: to Jonathan Tepper's story after brief message. These uncertain times

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Speaker 1: bring anxiety and fear, but Jesus Listens Prayers for Every

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Speaker 1: Season gives you daily prayers of comfort with seasonally inspired illustrations.

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Speaker 1: This beautiful book includes prayers that speak to your situation,

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Speaker 1: whether it's a time of stress or strength. Look for

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Speaker 1: Jesus Listens Prayers for Every Season wherever you buy books.

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Speaker 1: Our next guest is Jonathan Tepper, a writer and fund

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Speaker 1: manager whose new memoir, Shooting Up, looks back on his

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Speaker 1: unconventional upbringing in Spain. He grew up surrounded by his parents'

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Speaker 1: work with people battling addiction, and he shares how those

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Speaker 1: early experiences gave him perspective on family loss and what

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Speaker 1: it really means to show up for others.

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Speaker 3: Is Jonathan Tepper and i am a fund manager also

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Speaker 3: a writer, and I've just written Shooting Up, a memoir

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Speaker 3: about my childhood growing up as a missionary kid in Spain.

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Speaker 3: My parents were American father from New York from North Carolina.

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Speaker 3: As a missionary kid, I spent about four years in

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Speaker 3: Mexico and then my parents moved to Spain in nineteen

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Speaker 3: eighty three when I was seven. So people ask where

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Speaker 3: I'm from, I generally say Madrid. My parents were Christian missionaries,

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Speaker 3: and I think their entire lives were based on a calling,

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Speaker 3: the Great Commission. That was the central part of their

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Speaker 3: identity and existence. When you're a missionary kid, you get

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Speaker 3: roped into your parents' work and they're calling, and so

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Speaker 3: it really does take over your entire life, whether you

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Speaker 3: want it or not. You don't have any say in

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Speaker 3: the decision making process. I remember my parents telling us

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Speaker 3: we were going to Madrid, and that was pretty much it.

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Speaker 3: And then when we got to Madrid, initially they wanted

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Speaker 3: to work with university students, my father wanted to be

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Speaker 3: a university chaplain, and then they told us that they

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Speaker 3: wanted to work with heroin addicts and started Doug Rehab Center.

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Speaker 3: And I think the way I remembered it was a

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Speaker 3: big adventure. I don't think I fully realized how abnormal

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Speaker 3: it was, or that it might be somewhat dangerous, or

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Speaker 3: certainly perceived that way. And then certainly some family and

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Speaker 3: friends they're horrified that my parents would take their young

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Speaker 3: kids and involve them in a mission like that, But

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Speaker 3: at the time it certainly felt like an adventure to us.

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Speaker 3: When we arrived in Spain, I was seven years old,

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Speaker 3: and for the first two years, my brothers and I

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Speaker 3: were handing out flyers in the neighborhood in some Blasts,

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Speaker 3: which at the time had the highest rate of heroin

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Speaker 3: use in Europe, And that was why my parents decided

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Speaker 3: to help addicts, because the need was so overwhelming, And

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Speaker 3: so my memories from an early age were meeting men

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Speaker 3: and women on the street, often as they were shooting

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Speaker 3: up and then they would come to our house for meetings,

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Speaker 3: and my parents started a church. And so I think

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Speaker 3: the most vivid memories I had really the people, particularly

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Speaker 3: the first addict in the program. I knew him, you know,

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Speaker 3: when he was fis, smelly and dirty and came to

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Speaker 3: our house. And then he became like an older brother

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Speaker 3: to us, and he was the first addict in the

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Speaker 3: center and a very charismatic leader. And then over the years,

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Speaker 3: my memories were visiting in the hospital on Tarmonica had

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Speaker 3: and I think of him every day a fight how

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Speaker 3: here on my desk in the office. And you never

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Speaker 3: forget people that you love like that, my parents tried

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Speaker 3: to live out their Christian faith and the principles, you know,

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Speaker 3: the circle on them ount and showing love and compassion

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Speaker 3: to others. And I think if you look at the

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Speaker 3: example of Jesus, and he spent time with Leopards who

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Speaker 3: were socially outcast, no one wanted to touch them or

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Speaker 3: be around them. He spent time with Smaritans who were

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Speaker 3: also social outcasts, with people who were hated at the time,

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Speaker 3: like Rowan soldiers and tax collectors. And I think that

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Speaker 3: my parents, even though drug addicts and people with AIDS

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Speaker 3: were certainly the leopards or undesirables in the nineteen eighties

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Speaker 3: and even later. My parents were drawn to them to

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Speaker 3: show them love, to try to live out their faith

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Speaker 3: day to day, and so I found it enormously inspiring

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Speaker 3: to see that. And when I was young, I used

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Speaker 3: to read a lot, and I think it probably depended

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Speaker 3: what year you asked me what I wanted to do.

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Speaker 3: I tended to be excited by the latest things I

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Speaker 3: was doing, so you know, for a while, I wanted

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Speaker 3: to be a jazz trumpet player, and I wanted to

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Speaker 3: be President of the United States, and then I wanted

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Speaker 3: to do many other things depending on what I was reading.

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Speaker 3: So it really did depend on the year. I run

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Speaker 3: an investment fund for endowments and family offices and ended

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Speaker 3: up going to Oxford as a Rhodes scholar, and it's

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Speaker 3: a world away for the childhood that I grew up

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Speaker 3: in and then seeing my parents, which started out as

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Speaker 3: a very small center tion into an international and a

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Speaker 3: multinational drug rehab I am today. Sometimes it did feel

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Speaker 3: there were two separate sides of my life that never met,

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Speaker 3: but I feel that they were connected. My parents always

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Speaker 3: encouraged us to pursue our passions and our interests, and

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Speaker 3: gave me a great love of learning. And they also

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Speaker 3: tried to show compassion, and the drug center itself ran

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Speaker 3: businesses which provided a free drug rehabilitation. I hope I

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Speaker 3: can dedicate my time and money to help those in need.

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Speaker 3: And I think one thing I've taken away is that

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Speaker 3: you can be a miserable, grady person in poor you

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Speaker 3: can be a miserable, greedy person, and rich. You have

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Speaker 3: to decide every day whether you want to be loving

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Speaker 3: and compassionate, and it doesn't really matter where you are

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Speaker 3: to do that, as long as you're doing your best

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Speaker 3: with what you have. I don't think that heroism is

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Speaker 3: one single great act of courage, although that obviously can happen.

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Speaker 3: But I think that it's showing up day to day

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Speaker 3: and trying to show love compassion to others. At home,

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Speaker 3: my parents always had a devotional when we were young.

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Speaker 3: My father they used to be very long, and he

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Speaker 3: called them the pontifications. They would read not only the Bible,

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Speaker 3: but it works of literature and philosophy to us, and

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Speaker 3: then prayer was certainly an important part of that. And

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Speaker 3: the TRUG recab center itself. No one had to be

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Speaker 3: a Christian or believe anything to enter, and you know,

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Speaker 3: it was open to all who needed help. But the

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Speaker 3: morning devotionals were a part of daily life, and then

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Speaker 3: there was a Sunday morning Servius, and so prayer was

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Speaker 3: certainly an important part there. And there's a quote from C. S.

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Speaker 1: Lewis.

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Speaker 3: He said, I don't pray to change God. I pray

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Speaker 3: because it changes me. And I think that's a very

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Speaker 3: important element of prayer. And certainly when you're seeing people

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Speaker 3: whose lives are being changed, it's very easy to be

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Speaker 3: self involved or to not think of others. And I

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Speaker 3: think that the idea that there is something greater than

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Speaker 3: ourselves ideally should give us a little more humility and

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Speaker 3: let us think of ourselves a little less. Cso said,

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Speaker 3: not thinking less of ourselves, but thinking of ourselves less. Necessariately,

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Speaker 3: think that thinking of God does that. I think that

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Speaker 3: my parents helped herooneutics because that was the overwhelming need

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Speaker 3: that was there in some blasts. But I think many

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Speaker 3: people live in different circumstances and their immediate needs that

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Speaker 3: are near them, whether it's homelessness or a lack of education,

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Speaker 3: need to help with literacy, whatever, it might be a

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Speaker 3: foster care system where there's so much need in suffering

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Speaker 3: in the world, and I think that you don't really

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Speaker 3: have to plan a multi year, multi decade journey. My

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Speaker 3: parents never planned on starting an international degreehab center. They

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Speaker 3: set out to show love and compassion to one addict

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Speaker 3: at a time, and I think that taking one step

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Speaker 3: at a time is the way that you can change

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Speaker 3: the world, even if you don't sit out to do it.

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Speaker 1: To learn more about Jonathan Tepper, visit Jonathan dash Tepper

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Speaker 1: dot com and be sure to check out his new book,

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Speaker 1: Shooting Up at your favorite retailer. If you'd like to

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Speaker 1: hear more stories about breaking free from addiction, check out

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Speaker 1: our interview with Ryanan Sheckler. Next Time on the Jesus

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Speaker 1: Calling podcast, singer songwriter Amy Grant opens up about the

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Speaker 1: profound realities of aging, family and resilience. She reflects on

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Speaker 1: caring for our parents through dementia, her own recovery from

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Speaker 1: a serious bike accident, and how these experiences have transformed

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Speaker 1: her outlook on life and her music.

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Speaker 4: You need people in your life to remind you of

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Speaker 4: what matters, to remind you you're right on time. For

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Speaker 4: your life. You are loved by God. Your life matters.

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Speaker 4: If you are still breathing, the adventure continues.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Jesus Calling Stories of Faith

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Speaker 1: podcast on the Life Audio Network. Every week, we'll bring

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Speaker 1: you stories from people who share their journeys of faith

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Speaker 1: and how prayer and a relationship with God transformed their lives.

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Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or

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Speaker 1: wherever you listen to po podcasts, and leave us a

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Speaker 1: review so others can be inspired weekly by these stories

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Speaker 1: of faith. Finally, you can find encouragement resources and more

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Speaker 1: on the Jesus Calling website at Jesuscalling dot com