Speaker 1: My name is Charlie Kirk. I run the largest pro
Speaker 1: American student organization in the country, fighting for the future
Speaker 1: of our republic. My call is to fight evil and
Speaker 1: to proclaim truth. If the most important thing for you
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Speaker 2: College is a scam, everybody.
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Speaker 2: I gave my.
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Speaker 2: All Right, welcome to the Charlie Kirk Show. I'm very
Speaker 2: excited about this next guest. I think he's one of
Speaker 2: the most impressive and important thinkers political commentators of our
Speaker 2: current moment, and not enough people in my opinion. I've
Speaker 2: told him this know about his thinking, his thought work,
Speaker 2: his writing, and that is Walter Kern. He's the editor
Speaker 2: at large of County Highway and he's co host of
Speaker 2: a This America Week. I think that's what it is.
Speaker 2: America this Week, that's what I got. It's going to
Speaker 2: make a little more sense. Yeah, America this Week with
Speaker 2: Matt Taybe, who's a great journalist in his own right,
Speaker 2: very accomplished. Walter. Welcome to the Charlie Kirk Show.
Speaker 3: I'm glad to be here. I'm really sorry that I
Speaker 3: postponed my last invitation while Charlie was around. It was
Speaker 3: the first Incas and I just wasn't sufficiently prophetic to
Speaker 3: know how short time was, and I thought I could
Speaker 3: do it later. And this is the visit that I'm
Speaker 3: doing later. And it's a sad one for me because
Speaker 3: I would have so wished to have talked to him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. And you and I actually got to
Speaker 2: meet backstage at the Megan Kelly event here in Glendale,
Speaker 2: and I got to tell you I got to fanboy
Speaker 2: a little bit. I do that rarely, very rarely. But
Speaker 2: you know, I Blake understands this because we we we
Speaker 2: make content and there's only so much content you can consume.
Speaker 2: When you're making content as well, You've got you know
Speaker 2: you it's true. But America this week, which is funny
Speaker 2: that I got the name wrong. I listened to that
Speaker 2: often with you and Matt because I think you guys
Speaker 2: have a way of breaking down the news that's swirling,
Speaker 2: the big stories of the day, and so I wanted
Speaker 2: to have you on the show because I think, like
Speaker 2: I said in the intro here, you are an important thinker,
Speaker 2: You're an important I think distiller of these larger stories,
Speaker 2: and you make them make sense and you bring out
Speaker 2: the most important through line, right, So what do you
Speaker 2: really need to pay attention to? So this is we're
Speaker 2: going to have you on the entire hour here, Walter,
Speaker 2: and we just want to we want to make sense
Speaker 2: of what happened in twenty twenty five, maybe go back
Speaker 2: to twenty twenty four and back further, but we want
Speaker 2: to also look forward to twenty twenty six and in
Speaker 2: this new year that we've just embarked on a year
Speaker 2: that I'm grateful that we have. And so I haven't
Speaker 2: been so grateful for the passing of a year into
Speaker 2: the next as I have this when I will tell
Speaker 2: you that much. But so let's start at the big question.
Speaker 2: Help us make sense of our current moment. If you
Speaker 2: had to distill all of these disparate pieces, Somali fraud
Speaker 2: and Democrats are now pro maduro, and you know you've
Speaker 2: got cultural elements weaving throughout. What are you observing? What
Speaker 2: are you thinking about right now? Walter Kern, Well, let.
Speaker 3: Me, just for those who don't know me, introduce my
Speaker 3: point of view and my reasons for having it. I'm
Speaker 3: chiefly a novelist, and I was a literary critic and
Speaker 3: a kind of columnist for all kinds of magazines, from
Speaker 3: Time to the New Republic, Harper's Magazine, fairly liberal magazines.
Speaker 3: And I see us as living inside a story. There's
Speaker 3: a big story that goes back thousands of years, and
Speaker 3: there's a smaller story that goes back, you know, just
Speaker 3: years and then weeks and then days. And what I
Speaker 3: try to do is examine what's going on in terms
Speaker 3: of narrative, but not in the sense of pushing a narrative,
Speaker 3: as we you know, often see the mainstream media doing
Speaker 3: trying to get us to pick a preferred version of reality,
Speaker 3: but in terms of a real drama, a drama that
Speaker 3: involves the big things our lives, our freedom, our history
Speaker 3: as a culture, and the big events that affect it.
Speaker 3: So if I were to take this moment in time
Speaker 3: January twenty twenty six and tell you where we are
Speaker 3: in the current story as I see it, I would
Speaker 3: say we're at a first act break in which we
Speaker 3: suddenly look around and realize that not only were we
Speaker 3: right to distrust certain kinds of authority, you know, in
Speaker 3: the media and in government, you know, particularly I think
Speaker 3: under Biden, when we weren't even treated to the facts
Speaker 3: about his you know, health situation and mental condition. But
Speaker 3: due to this Somali fraud, which I think is just
Speaker 3: an aperture into a bigger story, we're suddenly realizing that
Speaker 3: we've been in the middle of a daylight theft, a
Speaker 3: theft of our resources, of our money, of our attention,
Speaker 3: of our ability to interpret things. Suddenly a new filter
Speaker 3: is dropping, and we're seeing that politics is not just
Speaker 3: about ideology, but it's about resources, and what I think
Speaker 3: is the ongoing cover up of a great diversion of
Speaker 3: our resources. So as Americans suddenly think about themselves, you know,
Speaker 3: paying the bills, paying their taxes, raising their families, in
Speaker 3: light of what seems to have been an almost full
Speaker 3: scale across the board. You know, we have the Minnesota
Speaker 3: example as a microcosm, but the macrocosmic example extends, you know,
Speaker 3: to the federal government and to many many states. We
Speaker 3: ask ourselves, are we in a society anymore that we
Speaker 3: can go on supporting? Just as the revolutionary colonists wondered
Speaker 3: if they could survive under the British we're starting to
Speaker 3: realize that we may be in a situation which the
Speaker 3: very legitimacy of our government, you know, and it's promises
Speaker 3: to protect us, to use our resources wisely to provide
Speaker 3: for the common welfare such as we believe it's necessary,
Speaker 3: are all empty, and in fact we've been in the
Speaker 3: middle of a con job. It's like it's I knew
Speaker 3: a big con man in my life, a guy who
Speaker 3: called himself Clark Rockefeller and who was a friend of
Speaker 3: mine for years, turned out not to be a Rockefeller,
Speaker 3: turned out in fact to be a murderer. And I
Speaker 3: remember the week after he was exposed in the news
Speaker 3: as a German immigrant who you know, had a whole
Speaker 3: other name and a whole other history than I had
Speaker 3: known him to have for ten years. I suddenly felt
Speaker 3: like I was floating in space. I was like, I
Speaker 3: don't know the guy's real name. All the stories he
Speaker 3: told me seemed to have been a cover up for
Speaker 3: a life of crime. I don't know his motives. I
Speaker 3: don't know if I'm in danger when I'm around him,
Speaker 3: because he was exposed as a suspect in a double murder,
Speaker 3: a grizzly double murder, many years before. And I went
Speaker 3: to the bank that day and I thought, I'm giving
Speaker 3: the bank my money, but I don't know where it
Speaker 3: goes after I hand it over. I was giving a
Speaker 3: key to a contractor who had to work on my house,
Speaker 3: and I said, but what if he is part of
Speaker 3: a burglary ring? And suddenly everything that I all the
Speaker 3: bonds of trust and all the expectations of reciprocity that
Speaker 3: go into daily living were broken. And I think we're
Speaker 3: in that as Americans. We suddenly looked around and realized
Speaker 3: we're on a spacewalk when we thought we were secure
Speaker 3: inside a spaceship.
Speaker 2: Hmmm, yeah, I really relate to that actually, because you know,
Speaker 2: given what we're going through with, you know, the trial
Speaker 2: for Charlie's assassin coming up, and you know, all these
Speaker 2: conspiracy theories swirling. It's it's sort of it suddenly occurred
Speaker 2: to me that, you know, listen, we went from don't
Speaker 2: trust the experts to never question the non experts. You know.
Speaker 2: It's like, but that's what you're talking about. It's like
Speaker 2: the legitimacy of the system when it becomes in question
Speaker 2: in such a massive way, especially following COVID and some
Speaker 2: of the revelations that we that we learned in that
Speaker 2: in the wake of that, it's it feels like there's
Speaker 2: no solid ground to place your feet.
Speaker 3: Imagining a drama in which you find out your wife
Speaker 3: is cheating on you, but then you find a letter
Speaker 3: and find out she's cheating you with your best friend,
Speaker 3: oh not only your best friend, three of your best friends,
Speaker 3: and you look around and you think, can I trust anything?
Speaker 3: How do I go forward? Where to what do I
Speaker 3: cling now in order to have solidity? And that's I
Speaker 3: think where we are.
Speaker 2: President Trump walked into a catch twenty two and taking
Speaker 2: office do nothing in America would be staring at a
Speaker 2: ticking debt bomb, the kind of crisis that could cripple
Speaker 2: our future. Instead, he's taken action with strong policies to
Speaker 2: slow the train and buy some time. But the effects
Speaker 2: of past administration spending are still working through the system,
Speaker 2: and experts predict dramatic price increases and market uncertainty. Trump
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Speaker 2: protecting your retirement savings is ultimately up to you, and
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Speaker 2: to five zero five zero five. President Trump is fighting
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Speaker 2: Yeah so, but yeah, how did we get here to
Speaker 2: this moment then, Walter, how did we get to a
Speaker 2: point where we can't trust the ground under our feet?
Speaker 3: Well? I think it's Act one because the Trump presidency
Speaker 3: and the re election of Donald Trump provided a kind
Speaker 3: of refresh to the whole cycle. You know, that was
Speaker 3: a point at which people who had anticipated and worked
Speaker 3: hard to bring about a result on the behalf of
Speaker 3: Donald Trump's election succeeded and sat down for a minute,
Speaker 3: reflected on their expectations and the promises that they felt
Speaker 3: they'd been made, and started over. And that first year
Speaker 3: of Trump is a pretty natural, a pretty natural time
Speaker 3: span to review. When it came in exactly almost a
Speaker 3: year ago, I think people were expecting justice. They wanted
Speaker 3: an immediate kind of redempt and even revenge for the sins.
Speaker 4: Of COVID, for the deep state hoaxes coup against him
Speaker 4: that had been going on for years, and for the
Speaker 4: deceptions that had come from the opposite party and from
Speaker 4: our own government in an attempt to unseat him.
Speaker 3: From the legal cases that were flimsy, to the charges
Speaker 3: about Russia and so on. So everybody got in their
Speaker 3: seat and they prepared for a gunfight at the Okay
Speaker 3: Corral and it didn't happen, And there was a lot
Speaker 3: of instant dissatisfaction, a lot of it fomented and aggravated
Speaker 3: by his enemies who want to create dissatisfaction in his followers. Look,
Speaker 3: he's not doing anything. Nothing will happen. He's not what
Speaker 3: he promised. He's not the gunslinger, he's not the agent
Speaker 3: of justice. He's just another politician. Well, I think that's
Speaker 3: just changed because both the revelations of this fraud which came,
Speaker 3: which are really an extension of the Dose revelations but
Speaker 3: with much more vividness, have suddenly come a spate of
Speaker 3: actions on his part, whether it's this Maduro raid, whether
Speaker 3: it's uh what we're seeing right now in Minnesota, which
Speaker 3: is a two thousand agent uh descent of federal force
Speaker 3: on what appears to be a criminal racket of almost
Speaker 3: unimaginable riches and and financial dimensions. And so this is
Speaker 3: the year of action. So combined with that sense of
Speaker 3: you know, floating and displacement that I described before, we're
Speaker 3: also getting a feeling, oh wow, we just shifted gears
Speaker 3: and the thing that we uh, maybe some longed for
Speaker 3: and felt frustrated that they hadn't gotten immediately. Is now
Speaker 3: going to come very swiat And uh, whether or not
Speaker 3: it's too late, whether or not it's you know, people
Speaker 3: have gotten too cynical to even believe justice as possible.
Speaker 3: I don't know, but it's an action time and he's
Speaker 3: trolygraphing it all across the board.
Speaker 5: I guess it's interesting me. As Andrew pointed out, you've
Speaker 5: been around a little longer than us, I.
Speaker 2: Do think if you want a reason for apta.
Speaker 5: Yeah, if you want to reason for optimism, you can
Speaker 5: look at in the late seventies, America was in malaise,
Speaker 5: as Carter called it. Even in the nineties, you get
Speaker 5: you know, Chuck Palinax is writing these novels about how
Speaker 5: everything's fake and terrible.
Speaker 2: In the nineties everything's awful.
Speaker 5: And of course, uh, maybe I'm only going off the
Speaker 5: movie here, but I know one of your books, Up
Speaker 5: in the Air is about a lot of the Onwei from.
Speaker 5: You know, since the corporate world is getting detached from
Speaker 5: human values and such, so is there anything to be said?
Speaker 5: This might just be a constant. Are things true worse now?
Speaker 5: Or maybe are we just psychologically worse because of the Internet.
Speaker 3: For example, Worse isn't a word I like to use,
Speaker 3: because the framing around better and worse is always changing.
Speaker 3: You can look at it in the short term, the
Speaker 3: long term, and so on. I think that things are
Speaker 3: actually starting to become hopeful because we've started to reach
Speaker 3: the roots of some of the problems that before we
Speaker 3: were confused, baffled and depressed by. I think people are
Speaker 3: starting to feel a sense of agency and comprehension about
Speaker 3: how these bad systems work and what might disrupt them.
Speaker 3: And I think they are moving out of a period
Speaker 3: of cynicism about bread by their I think, over exaggerated
Speaker 3: expectations of action into a sense that maybe it's possible
Speaker 3: for the bad guys to be defeated. We now know
Speaker 3: who they are, we know how their formulas work, we
Speaker 3: know how their crimes are set up, we know the
Speaker 3: scale of them, which I think is shocking people. And
Speaker 3: it's not Elon Musk anymore as it was last spring,
Speaker 3: and sort of putting himself out front. Is people like
Speaker 3: Nick Shirley and uh, you know the commoners who are
Speaker 3: suddenly picking up the pitchforks. But they're picking up the
Speaker 3: pitchforks in a pretty constructive way. You know, they're they're
Speaker 3: they're not baying for revenge, they're not rioting, They're not
Speaker 3: you know, just foaming at the mouth. They know where
Speaker 3: to look, and they're finding the evidence. They're gathering it,
Speaker 3: they're sharing it, and they are i think, preparing themselves
Speaker 3: for action. And they're and they're also persuading their neighbors
Speaker 3: and friends. I think, you know that all of this
Speaker 3: new critical information dropped over the holidays was a great
Speaker 3: opportunity for people to share it and discuss it and
Speaker 3: meditate on it. So just as January is when the
Speaker 3: New Year's resolutions kick in, I think this is kind
Speaker 3: of harmonically timed for people who want to kick into gear.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, it's I have so many thoughts, Walter,
Speaker 2: you know it, I agree with you. You know, we had
Speaker 2: Jonathan Kieperman on just before the New Year, and one
Speaker 2: of the things that he was saying is similar in
Speaker 2: tone to what you're saying. He was saying, you know,
Speaker 2: the ship is pointed in the right direction for probably
Speaker 2: the first time in living memory, you know, and it's
Speaker 2: hard to communicate that to a base that is not
Speaker 2: going to be satisfied until you know, Fauci is strung
Speaker 2: up by his entrails in the public square, right, So
Speaker 2: you've got these exactly.
Speaker 5: Over always have to remind people because we secured the
Speaker 5: border overnight. That's such an unthinkably huge win that seemed
Speaker 5: impossible five years.
Speaker 2: Ago, one thousand percent. And uh, you know, and yeah,
Speaker 2: there's other there's other monsters to slay here. But you know,
Speaker 2: you talk about the sense of agency, and you talk
Speaker 2: about this new footing that we found in Trump and
Speaker 2: I couldn't help think about Charlie's reaction on election night,
Speaker 2: and I know what that was. I don't know if
Speaker 2: you've ever seen the clip, I have it ready to play.
Speaker 3: I haven't.
Speaker 2: It's it's a beautiful clip, and we were all here.
Speaker 2: What was happening in that moment was Charlie wouldn't let
Speaker 2: himself believe that it was possible until it was done,
Speaker 2: because he knew that he was He needed he needed
Speaker 2: to keep pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing, because the the agency
Speaker 2: that we had been robbed of in twenty twenty in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, it was we were almost had PTSD
Speaker 2: from it. And you could see this wiping away from
Speaker 2: him in the moment, and I think that's why it
Speaker 2: went so viral. Play cut two twenty three for Walter
Speaker 2: Fox News.
Speaker 6: Besides, Donald Trump is resident of the United States.
Speaker 1: We've got our republic.
Speaker 3: Let's go.
Speaker 6: Everybody should remember this moment. Look, I'm gonna I'm gonna
Speaker 6: echo Charlie from earlier. Remember where you were when this happened.
Speaker 6: Remember where you were when you realized that the UNI
Speaker 6: Party and all these you know, just the establishment. You said,
Speaker 6: it's time to actually participate. And look what you guys
Speaker 6: have done.
Speaker 5: And if anyone deserves to get tears in his eyes,
Speaker 5: it's Charlie.
Speaker 3: I think we all agree that.
Speaker 2: Something has worked harder than Charlie.
Speaker 6: We gotta we gotta hear some words here from you.
Speaker 5: Charlie.
Speaker 6: You put all this together, my man, Let's hear it.
Speaker 2: I am just humbled by.
Speaker 3: It's all got, It's all got, got along, got this
Speaker 3: is desk?
Speaker 4: Has it?
Speaker 3: Pennsylvania the beginning.
Speaker 2: That's a great clip, boys, so checked up watching it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's I just remember feeling like I couldn't believe it
Speaker 2: until it was true either.
Speaker 3: And let me tell you where I was on election night.
Speaker 3: I was here in Livingston, Montana, where I live, and
Speaker 3: I was at the Elks Club in downtown Livingston, population
Speaker 3: seven thousand. My magazine Slash newspaper, the one I help
Speaker 3: edit County Highway, which is an only in print paper,
Speaker 3: had announced on x that we were having a party
Speaker 3: at the Livingston Elks Club for election night. It was
Speaker 3: not a partisan party. Any of our subscribers were welcome,
Speaker 3: and so were people from town. Anybody who wanted to
Speaker 3: come was welcome. It was not going to be a
Speaker 3: Donald Trump celebration or Joe Biden's celebration. It was simply
Speaker 3: going to be a party for whoever showed up. Well,
Speaker 3: hundreds of people showed up. All we did was announced
Speaker 3: the invitation. They came from Europe, they came from all
Speaker 3: over the country. They were not all uniformly pro Trump
Speaker 3: by any means, By any means at all. We turned
Speaker 3: on the we turned on the news at about five.
Speaker 3: There were three TVs in the Elks Club, and then
Speaker 3: we started talking with each other and people started meeting
Speaker 3: for the first time and talking about how they got
Speaker 3: into the Livingston Montana which is, yeah, you know, a
Speaker 3: popular place to vacation, but it's also an obscure spot. Well,
Speaker 3: hours went by in which people were more interested in
Speaker 3: talking to each other than they were looking at the news.
Speaker 3: And I finally, you know, tip my head back up
Speaker 3: at the screen and I see Trump as one and
Speaker 3: I flashed back to twenty twenty one. I was alone
Speaker 3: in a cabin and I tweeted this. It was called Twitter.
Speaker 3: Then when there was that pause in the vote county,
Speaker 3: I said, uh, oh, everybody's now assessing. And by that
Speaker 3: I'm at democratic power structure is assessing what they need
Speaker 3: and how they're going to go get it. And then
Speaker 3: you know, we waited for a couple of hours. I'm
Speaker 3: on mountain time, and suddenly everything reversed, all the trends reversed.
Speaker 3: That's where the PTSD came from. Well in twenty twenty four,
Speaker 3: when I looked up and it seemed, you know, Trump
Speaker 3: had won, I thought, this isn't Trump winning. This is
Speaker 3: for all the closed churches, This is for all the
Speaker 3: closed businesses. This is for all the families that were
Speaker 3: set at each other's throats over minor things like masking
Speaker 3: and so on. This is for Russia Gate, which undermined
Speaker 3: the entire journalist structure of America, and enrolled them in
Speaker 3: a major lie as far as I'm concerned, which they
Speaker 3: at a certain point knew. This is for everybody who
Speaker 3: pretended they didn't realize we were being led by a zombie.
Speaker 3: It wasn't a win for Donald Trump. Charlie says, it
Speaker 3: was God that I think might be truer in this
Speaker 3: case than it is in many cases. I don't like
Speaker 3: to somehow think that God moves all politics. It's kind
Speaker 3: of sometimes a low affair. But in this case, it
Speaker 3: seemed like there was an opportunity to start climbing again,
Speaker 3: stop falling down the stairs, stop taking the blows, stop
Speaker 3: taking the whipping. And I felt in that room, even
Speaker 3: though there were a lot of people who weren't supporting Trump,
Speaker 3: a sense of refreshment. And I think getting ready for
Speaker 3: year two was what year one was all about. Even
Speaker 3: a fighter jet ney's a runway to take off. It
Speaker 3: can't just you know, there are some that can lift
Speaker 3: straight off. Most of them have to, you know, run
Speaker 3: along the ground before they can get airborne. And I
Speaker 3: think we're getting airborne at the moment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, would you even agree with that?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 5: No, I think we saw that in the first Admin too.
Speaker 5: I would often tell Charlie, I thought the last year
Speaker 5: of the Trump administration was the best one, not ignoring COVID.
Speaker 5: All the background stuff was so good. It finally got
Speaker 5: appointments were really humminge. That's when you only got, for example,
Speaker 5: and they got anti DEI stuff.
Speaker 2: Year four, it.
Speaker 5: Was finally like, wait, we should do something on that.
Speaker 5: It was it just took too long. Now we're seeing
Speaker 5: a lot of stuff that we saw in year three
Speaker 5: or year four happening year one. And I think the
Speaker 5: valid hope is everything can accelerate even more in the
Speaker 5: years to come.
Speaker 2: They'll find more levers they.
Speaker 5: Can pull at the DOJ, at the State Department, at
Speaker 5: all these different agencies. There's a lot more awareness of
Speaker 5: what they're capable of doing. And I have I see
Speaker 5: every reason to be optimistic about what they'll be able
Speaker 5: to do in the years to come. On that front,
Speaker 5: at least, I think.
Speaker 3: A lot of people walked into Washington. I'm thinking of
Speaker 3: my friend Jay Baticharia at NIH and they had they'd flop.
Speaker 3: He'd flot COVID, he'd been a kind of COVID real list.
Speaker 3: These lockdowns aren't necessary. We're trying to stop something that's
Speaker 3: already spread too far. It's not a deadly disease if
Speaker 3: you look at the actual number of casualties versus those
Speaker 3: who've been infected and so on. Well, he came into
Speaker 3: Washington an honest man from Stanford University and represented, I
Speaker 3: think as much as purely as anyone, somebody whose voice
Speaker 3: had been suppressed, somebody who had been marginalized, and was
Speaker 3: going to represent real change. My conversations with him over
Speaker 3: the last year suggests and imply to me that when
Speaker 3: he got there, he suddenly realized that running a gigantic
Speaker 3: bureaucracy and being an honest person are a difficult pairing
Speaker 3: in this world, and especially in Washington. Getting getting people
Speaker 3: to explain to you how the workflow worked, getting people to,
Speaker 3: you know, not only say yes to an order, but
Speaker 3: perform on It was hard going through your staff and
Speaker 3: bringing real, outsider, honest energy to a situation which had
Speaker 3: been inert, obscure, self satisfied, often corrupt, takes a lot
Speaker 3: of time, and the other side was whipping up dissatisfaction
Speaker 3: with the pace. It was all a sudden. It was
Speaker 3: all of a sudden. Well, he's not delivering his promises
Speaker 3: fast enough the promises. They didn't want to see him
Speaker 3: deliver it at all. The other side was saying weren't
Speaker 3: being performed on quickly enough.
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Speaker 2: All right, So, Walter, you know, it occurs to me
Speaker 2: that so much of what we're talking around here is
Speaker 2: either a byproduct or a relative close cousin to this
Speaker 2: media industrial complex that was blown up at the advent
Speaker 2: of the Internet, and then it's been sort of this
Speaker 2: slow death march, you know, cable cutters, things, you know,
Speaker 2: we've been moving more digitally. That's created a massive opportunity
Speaker 2: for shows like this, creators like Charlie. Now myself and
Speaker 2: Blake are now public figures. So it's but but it's
Speaker 2: also created a conundrum for truth, for veracity. How do
Speaker 2: you verify things now we've got Ai. Blake was just
Speaker 2: telling me he couldn't verify whether it was.
Speaker 5: Crazy that story that you almost certainly heard where they
Speaker 5: blew up Chavez's mausoleum.
Speaker 2: Yeah, who goes shout.
Speaker 5: I can't I literally can't figure out if it's true
Speaker 5: or not because people are posting photos and other people
Speaker 5: are saying that is an AI fake photo, and I
Speaker 5: haven't been able to look in deep enough and it
Speaker 5: either could be true.
Speaker 2: So so what do we do in this landscape?
Speaker 5: There was another one someone posted a thread that was like,
Speaker 5: I work at uber eats and they're scamming everyone and
Speaker 5: like all their stuff, Like they're doing all this scummy
Speaker 5: stuff like special expedited delivery stuff that's all fake. It's
Speaker 5: just done to get more money out of you. And
Speaker 5: he had all this evidence and he sent it to
Speaker 5: a journalist and that was all AI fabrications. It was
Speaker 5: like an AI done hit job against a food delivery company.
Speaker 2: Well, all of these examples underscore the question I'm asking,
Speaker 2: and I haven't really distilled it in a very good
Speaker 2: good question yet, But will do you strike me as
Speaker 2: a guy who is, you know, very concerned with what
Speaker 2: is the ultimate truth? What is the deepest truth? What
Speaker 2: do we do when you have a population of three
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty million people, not to mention the global
Speaker 2: population all trying to suss through these different, you know,
Speaker 2: disparate information streams. How do you get everybody on the
Speaker 2: same page? How do you how do you get truth
Speaker 2: across What do we do in this in this landscape?
Speaker 3: You don't try to get everyone on the same page.
Speaker 3: That was an illusion in a grandiose, mythological white whale
Speaker 3: that was pursued in the age of television and mass media.
Speaker 3: It's no longer possible, and I don't think it's any
Speaker 3: longer desirable. One of the virtues of people not knowing
Speaker 3: what's real beyond the horizon is that they start concentrating
Speaker 3: on what's within their horizon. We have spent far too
Speaker 3: long in the United States knowing what's going on in
Speaker 3: New York, knowing what's going on in Los Angeles, knowing
Speaker 3: what's going on in Washington, and not knowing what's going
Speaker 3: on across the street. The difficulty of painting truth about
Speaker 3: what's going on around the world would cause us, I think,
Speaker 3: to slightly give up on it. Because there is a family,
Speaker 3: a house, a street, a town, a neighborhood, a church,
Speaker 3: a group of friends that needs your attention. I promise
Speaker 3: you those were the things that they tried to break
Speaker 3: up during COVID, when the power is that be tried
Speaker 3: to leverage that pandemic into permanent rule for themselves. They
Speaker 3: knew that their first strike had to be at your church,
Speaker 3: at your hardware store, at your grocery store, at your family,
Speaker 3: at your dinner table. Well, those are the things you
Speaker 3: have to reclaim first. You know. I have a friend
Speaker 3: who's very into solar magnetic storms and sort of doom
Speaker 3: and apocalypse around, you know, big earth changes and so on.
Speaker 3: And I thought to myself one night he'd warned me
Speaker 3: that there was a big objection of plasma from the
Speaker 3: sun and all the lights might go out. And I said, well,
Speaker 3: if the lights go out, where do I start? What
Speaker 3: do I do next? I figure out who I can trust,
Speaker 3: I figure out what I have to trade. I figure out,
Speaker 3: you know, what I can defend and who I'm going
Speaker 3: to defend. And all those questions that would come in
Speaker 3: the wake of a disaster are ones that we need
Speaker 3: to be asking right now, because the disaster is this,
Speaker 3: as you say, melting of reality and starting on first
Speaker 3: principles and starting at home and starting with the world
Speaker 3: you can look around and see with your own eyes
Speaker 3: is the solution. And then those pods, as it were,
Speaker 3: those cells, just like the body, The body isn't made
Speaker 3: of some big giant piece of you know, chicken nugget,
Speaker 3: it's got cells in it, little active, isolated engines that
Speaker 3: link up and work together. And at the cellular level,
Speaker 3: we have to I think, renew our uh you know,
Speaker 3: renew our contracts if we're going to have a bigger
Speaker 3: social contract. And this vain thought that everybody is going
Speaker 3: to be guided by some obelisk that beams truth down
Speaker 3: from the central authorities is does not serve us. Well,
Speaker 3: it causes it to ignore our own garden.
Speaker 2: M Yeah, I love, I love what you're saying. I
Speaker 2: mean we've been, you know, saying for a long time
Speaker 2: politics starts local, and you're kind of broadening that conversation
Speaker 2: to sort of say, look, we.
Speaker 5: Just got an email today someone who said they were
Speaker 5: inspired to get involved in Maricopa County politics.
Speaker 2: Great, Charlie, Well, yeah, absolutely, I mean that is that
Speaker 2: is where it starts, you know, Walter. I mean, I gosh,
Speaker 2: my problem with you, Walter is I want to talk
Speaker 2: about too many things and there's just not enough time.
Speaker 3: Well, I'll come back.
Speaker 2: I'm still bound by the clock here. I would be
Speaker 2: remiss if I didn't give you an opportunity to talk
Speaker 2: about what Charlie's assassination meant for our country. And you know,
Speaker 2: as I'm hearing you talk earlier, you mentioned Nick Shirley
Speaker 2: and this sort of new wave that is slowly kind
Speaker 2: of forming. You've got Dan Bongino that's coming back, and
Speaker 2: he's you know, he's saying he's going to wage war
Speaker 2: on certain you know, influences within maybe the conservative movement
Speaker 2: and beyond. I just think it's interesting. I believed, in
Speaker 2: my whole heart, especially after we got past the memorial,
Speaker 2: that there was going to be this sifting of movement.
Speaker 2: There was going to be this like this changing of
Speaker 2: the guard, sort of a new out of necessity, this
Speaker 2: newness that was going to be created out of the
Speaker 2: chaos and the loss. And I just so, without feeding
Speaker 2: you answers, I want to hear what you have to say.
Speaker 2: But I believe that there is something that we are observing.
Speaker 2: It it will not become clear to us until some
Speaker 2: time now. But what what did losing Charlie? What did
Speaker 2: you observe? What did it mean? And where are we
Speaker 2: going next?
Speaker 3: Well, to be very cold about it and systematic, as
Speaker 3: though I don't have a heart. A power vacuum develops
Speaker 3: when someone of Charlie's magnitude and competence and gifts is lost,
Speaker 3: and in that power vacuum, all sorts of opportunistic creatures
Speaker 3: come rushing in and they live by the law of
Speaker 3: the jungle. How much space that has been left vacant
Speaker 3: can I occupy? How securely can I occupy it? How
Speaker 3: can I find off competitors? And that was a frankly
Speaker 3: ugly process to watch, and I guess it still goes
Speaker 3: on to some extent, But in another way, it's a
Speaker 3: tribute to how big a space he occupied that it was,
Speaker 3: that it left so much vacant for so many sort
Speaker 3: of competitive Darwinian struggles over power and attention. But I
Speaker 3: think the real meaning of the thing is the meaning
Speaker 3: of the moment after that I felt and others felt,
Speaker 3: which was someone has just given in what it was
Speaker 3: not understood as a war but suddenly looks like one
Speaker 3: because of the combatant falling given everything. And he's given
Speaker 3: everything in the purest way. He you know, he wasn't
Speaker 3: a man behind us a plexiglass. He was someone openly
Speaker 3: sitting with a square stance before a crowd of his
Speaker 3: fellow Americans, taking all comers, listening and speaking back. He
Speaker 3: was the avatar of openness he and that that openness
Speaker 3: was rewarded with destruction. Was I think a shock that
Speaker 3: showed us how far we'd gone, how far we'd fallen.
Speaker 3: You know, when when when truly uh, you know, when
Speaker 3: demagogues and people who are you know, have armies behind
Speaker 3: them and so on, are assassinated, well, you know that
Speaker 3: they kind of lived by the sword. But to live,
Speaker 3: but to live by the word and die by the
Speaker 3: sword is a whole other thing. And to watch someone
Speaker 3: who lived by the word die by the sword was
Speaker 3: a terrible moment, and it affected me deeply. I'll be
Speaker 3: honest with you. I'm a little old for you know,
Speaker 3: campus activism and and a lot of the other things
Speaker 3: that try well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but but you know I was.
Speaker 3: I was. I was aware with him, aware of him
Speaker 3: in my peripheral vision, and suddenly when he moved to
Speaker 3: the center of my vision in this terrible way, terrible way,
Speaker 3: I saw the best and worst of America in one
Speaker 3: lightning flash. I saw someone who still believed that freedom
Speaker 3: of speech, a sort of candor about your spiritual and
Speaker 3: religious beliefs in dialogue with people who maybe flat out
Speaker 3: opposed them can still lead to a happy ending that
Speaker 3: faith lives on. It was liberated from his body, but
Speaker 3: it spread everywhere, and I think it's starting to reassemble
Speaker 3: itself after a period of darkness. I mean, everybody was traumatized,
Speaker 3: whether they know it or not. And some people aren't
Speaker 3: their best under trauma. You know, they become very selfish
Speaker 3: or even kind of evil. But there is a waking
Speaker 3: up to the fact that this was a good force.
Speaker 3: It was almost too good for the world. It was
Speaker 3: dispersed by hatred, envy, resentment, jealousy, perhaps, I mean it won't.
Speaker 5: Think really, I think it is the best thing about
Speaker 5: this horrible tragedy that I've brought up is Charlie truly
Speaker 5: was cut down at his absolute peak, and so in
Speaker 5: a sense, his peak does.
Speaker 2: Live on forever.
Speaker 5: He's always as he was on that campus in throughout
Speaker 5: the year twenty twenty five. He was at his peak
Speaker 5: form in terms of argument, he was at his peak
Speaker 5: form in terms of how well he lived his life.
Speaker 5: He was getting better and better, and there's something very
Speaker 5: there's something very powerful about that, and that's a lot
Speaker 5: of the power of martyrs is the way they can
Speaker 5: endure forever. You never have to see that make mistakes
Speaker 5: or get old or lose their fastball. They're always in
Speaker 5: that pristine form.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Blake. Blake helped write the eulogy that we published
Speaker 2: at t posa dot com the day after, and I
Speaker 2: still don't know how you wrote it, Blake. When Charlie died,
Speaker 2: I basically I was shell shocked, like the world didn't
Speaker 2: make sense. I remember trying, you know, I was supposed
Speaker 2: to get out a statement, you know, about Charlie. We
Speaker 2: had received word that he had he was gone, you know,
Speaker 2: because there was some confusion about that, and I remember
Speaker 2: trying to write, you know, whatever it was I was
Speaker 2: supposed to write, and President Trump ended up true socially
Speaker 2: that Charlie was dead, and I remember just being so relieved.
Speaker 2: I mean, I couldn't put one foot in front of
Speaker 2: the other. It was like, you know, it was like
Speaker 2: that scene out of Saving Private Ryan, where it was
Speaker 2: just you know, it's just everything was moving in slow motion,
Speaker 2: but my body couldn't I couldn't make it function. So
Speaker 2: the fact that Blake in the in the middle of
Speaker 2: that night got the words out. But one of the
Speaker 2: things he said was that, you know, Charlie will will
Speaker 2: never grow old. You know, we'll never see him, you know,
Speaker 2: lose lose any of the grandeur and the glory of
Speaker 2: his youth. And I guess in some ways this far
Speaker 2: removed from it. I feel comforted in some ways that
Speaker 2: I always get to remember him that way, but I
Speaker 2: hate that I have to remember him too. So it's
Speaker 2: a bittersweet feeling. But I know that he's gone and
Speaker 2: there's no bringing him back.
Speaker 7: This is Lane Schunberger, chief investment Officer and founding partner
Speaker 7: of wy REFI. It has been an honor and a
Speaker 7: privilege to partner with Turning Point and for Charlie to
Speaker 7: endorse us. His endorsement means the world to us, and
Speaker 7: we look forward to continuing our partnership with Turning Point
Speaker 7: for years to come. Now hear Charlie, in his own words,
Speaker 7: tell you about why REFI.
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Speaker 3: Well, you know, I I don't mean to be disputatious
Speaker 3: or niggling, but I don't think he was at his peak.
Speaker 3: I think I agree.
Speaker 2: I actually agree with you on this.
Speaker 3: I think he was just toward his peak. He was
Speaker 3: on an obvious track. He had momentum. He was like
Speaker 3: he was like a mountain climber who can suddenly see
Speaker 3: the top of the mountain, the top of everest. They've
Speaker 3: got their pack and you know they're going to get there.
Speaker 3: You know they're going to even get there or beyond
Speaker 3: and suddenly it's over. What that You know that happens
Speaker 3: to poets, rock stars, saints and a lot of people
Speaker 3: who die young and yet inspire us to pick up
Speaker 3: their pack and carry it. And I think we're going
Speaker 3: to have to go where he was going.
Speaker 2: I totally. I mean, a lot of people, you know,
Speaker 2: speculate was Charlie going to be president? Who knows he was.
Speaker 3: The kind of he was the kind of guy what
Speaker 3: I love about him. What I love about him was
Speaker 3: that he seemed like he still had the ability to change,
Speaker 3: He still had the ability to learn and to formulate
Speaker 3: new conclusions. Hey, he might have gotten to age thirty
Speaker 3: five and decided I don't want to be the President
Speaker 3: of the United States. I want to be X or
Speaker 3: I want to you know, write a book or whatever
Speaker 3: it was. I mean, though, he was dedicated to action
Speaker 3: and the turning point I think is most impressive to
Speaker 3: me in terms of getting stuff done. Like turning point,
Speaker 3: people wake up every day and they achieve goals that
Speaker 3: are small in the short term and huge in the
Speaker 3: long term. And we're not a society like that anymore.
Speaker 3: To see anybody be effective anymore, especially in a large
Speaker 3: scale movement, is astonishing, you know, and especially without tons
Speaker 3: of money. But I think that you know, he uh,
Speaker 3: I don't know what my original point was. Actually I
Speaker 3: strayed a bit there, But I don't know how he
Speaker 3: would have ended up. I only know that wherever he
Speaker 3: chose to go, he would have gotten there, and he
Speaker 3: would have gotten there superbly.
Speaker 5: What if he wasn't Weatherding, What if he'd really gone
Speaker 5: for becoming a college football coach?
Speaker 2: That was what you said.
Speaker 5: He always said if he got tired of gave up,
Speaker 5: he would just quit and coach college He would.
Speaker 2: He would joke at our chat all the time. He'd
Speaker 2: be like, fine, I give up, you know, I quit.
Speaker 2: I retired. He's like, I'm gonna go coach college football at.
Speaker 5: Universe where people are like, did you know that that
Speaker 5: college football coach.
Speaker 2: Used to be a political up? Exactly? Walter, You and
Speaker 2: Matt have a great show. I want to make sure
Speaker 2: people know where to find it and how to follow
Speaker 2: you on that stuff. We still have about six minutes here,
Speaker 2: but I really really love your guys's content there, so
Speaker 2: please like, what are you doing with Matt and what
Speaker 2: should people know about what you're up to.
Speaker 3: So Matt Kayubi is a muck raking reporter from the left. Really,
Speaker 3: I think he was at his greatest fame during the
Speaker 3: Occupy Wall Street years, as he basically took on high
Speaker 3: finance and showed they had committed crimes all through what
Speaker 3: we now call the financial crisis. But like me, sometime
Speaker 3: around the first year of the Trump resident's first Trump presidency,
Speaker 3: he started to see his colleagues fall for this ridiculous
Speaker 3: and unverifiable story of Trump being a Russian agent, and
Speaker 3: it alienated him from his cohort, as it did me.
Speaker 3: I was probably a little more to the right than
Speaker 3: Matt Taibe or a little more to the center. But
Speaker 3: we both found ourselves after a few years feeling deserted
Speaker 3: by are supposedly principled and supposedly conscientious colleagues, and so
Speaker 3: we came together in a sense of in the sense
Speaker 3: of both being stranded by not getting on the Russigate train.
Speaker 3: And what we try to do on our podcast that's
Speaker 3: a huge sports fan and is give you a sort
Speaker 3: of skybox play by play, a big picture nearration of
Speaker 3: events as though they were a game. Now we realize
Speaker 3: they're not a game, but we try to treat them
Speaker 3: as one with a lot of humor, with a lot
Speaker 3: of you know, mischief and kind of pop cultural reference,
Speaker 3: so that the heaviness of things doesn't destroy people. It's
Speaker 3: important to keep a light spirit. And when you talk
Speaker 3: about black pilling, absolutely, when you talk about black pilling,
Speaker 3: you're talking about the thing that bothers me most, and
Speaker 3: people who want good things to happen, Despair is a sin,
Speaker 3: and spreading despair is practically the sin that they tell
Speaker 3: us is the unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit. When
Speaker 3: you try to destroy someone's spirit with pessimism, with cynicism,
Speaker 3: and you know, a little bit of that goes a
Speaker 3: long way. But when you try to give them the
Speaker 3: feeling that nothing you can do, nothing you can say,
Speaker 3: and no one can appeal to will it ever help you?
Speaker 3: It's lost and you're just living out the clock on
Speaker 3: this earth, feeling the pain and feeling the depression, you
Speaker 3: may as well go kill yourself. Well, that for me
Speaker 3: is that for me is the enemy in all respects.
Speaker 3: Because as long as you have a lightness, as long
Speaker 3: as you have a flow, as long as you have
Speaker 3: sort of a light on in your heart and in
Speaker 3: your mind there's a chance for change, but that is
Speaker 3: absolute death. And the black pill people who tell you
Speaker 3: know you've been betrayed again, don't expect anything. And they
Speaker 3: think they're being grown up, and they think they're being sophisticated,
Speaker 3: but what they're really doing is sending you to an
Speaker 3: early grave. And what they're really doing is opening the
Speaker 3: way for the true cynics, the psychopaths, the powermongers, to
Speaker 3: own you forever and enslave you. And so what Matt
Speaker 3: and I do is, if anything, an assault on the
Speaker 3: black pillars, you can still laugh no matter how dark
Speaker 3: things get.
Speaker 5: All right, Well, before we go, if you had to
Speaker 5: recommend one of your books to people, good questions who
Speaker 5: are watching or listening to this, So what would you say?
Speaker 3: You know, funny, there's a book with a terrible cover
Speaker 3: right there called Mission to America. Look at that terrible cover.
Speaker 3: I mean they did not even have AI as an excuse.
Speaker 3: And it's a story of it's a story of two
Speaker 3: missionaries who grow up in what's basically a cult isolated
Speaker 3: in the mountains of Montana, which hasn't gotten out into
Speaker 3: the world for one hundred years, and it's become so inbred,
Speaker 3: literally genetically inbred, that they're sent out in a van
Speaker 3: to try to get female converts in America two thousand
Speaker 3: and five. And they leave their mountain valley having never
Speaker 3: watched television, you know, being as innocent as Martians practically,
Speaker 3: and they hit the road to bring people to their
Speaker 3: beliefs system. And it's a story about faith. It's a
Speaker 3: story about modernity versus you know, the old ways. And
Speaker 3: it's a story about vulnerability, because I mean, the first
Speaker 3: time they sit down in a motel to turn on TV,
Speaker 3: they're there for eighteen hours. You know, they have no
Speaker 3: they have no immunity to it. I try, I try
Speaker 3: to show modern America from the point of view of
Speaker 3: people who aren't immune to its seductions, and it's you know,
Speaker 3: it's poisons and so on.
Speaker 2: I love that the way you describe. I've been describing
Speaker 2: things a lot like this lately, about we build up
Speaker 2: this immunity to things. And next time I have you on, Walter,
Speaker 2: I want I feel like since Trump came down those
Speaker 2: golden escalators, we as a country have been building immunities
Speaker 2: to the fake news, to the to the propaganda, to
Speaker 2: PsiOps to color revolutions, to hoaxes. And I would be
Speaker 2: super curious to have a conversation in depth about the
Speaker 2: immunities that we're growing now, because I think when we're
Speaker 2: talking about black pillar immunities, we're talking about this vacuum
Speaker 2: of this laws of the jungle, we're sort of building
Speaker 2: immunities to that. I have to believe good will win out.
Speaker 2: Truth will win out. But Walter, it's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 3: Oh, we know it will in the end. It's it's
Speaker 3: the short term we're working.
Speaker 2: I know exactly the midterms. That's what we're worried about.
Speaker 3: Walter.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I want to talk to you next time
Speaker 2: about your conversion to faith, because you you were not
Speaker 2: a theist and now you are, and I would love
Speaker 2: to hear more about that. You've even in our calls, uh, Walter,
Speaker 2: that we had after we met you with Megan's, you've
Speaker 2: you've hinted at it, but I haven't got the details.
Speaker 2: So well, Walter Kerrn, the Great Walter Kerrn, will have
Speaker 2: you back again as soon as you'll have us.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, thank you, and thank you playing.
Speaker 7: For more on many of these stories and news.
Speaker 3: You can trust go to Charlie Kirk dot com.