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Speaker 1: Tax Day is fast approaching. But what significance does that

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Speaker 1: have for us? Do we owe the government money? I'm

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Speaker 1: talking today to Joe Banister. This is a man who

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Speaker 1: has well, he's feared by the IRS. A funny thing

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Speaker 1: to say, because most of us fear the IRS. Joe

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Speaker 1: Banister has gone up against the IRS and prevailed.

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Speaker 2: We'll talk about that in a moment.

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Speaker 1: He is an accountant, he is a former criminal investigator

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Speaker 1: for the IRS. And Joe, welcome, Thank you for joining me.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate it. You are also the author of a

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Speaker 1: book about the IRS, kind of Exposing the IRS, and

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Speaker 1: you are affiliated with Freedom Law School, founded by payment

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Speaker 1: Morte Heyde, whom I interviewed a few days ago. I

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Speaker 1: think a good way to begin is just to ask

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Speaker 1: you about tax Day, because all these Americans are filled

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Speaker 1: with anxiety. They all believe that they owe a lot

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Speaker 1: of money to the government. They are afraid that whatever

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Speaker 1: they put on their tax return, the IRS can always

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Speaker 1: come back for more.

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Speaker 2: And what is your message to those Americans?

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Speaker 3: Well, I guess the main message is to lose the

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Speaker 3: fear as much as possible. I think that the IRS

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Speaker 3: has always capitalized on fear and timidation, deceit. You know,

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Speaker 3: it is an eight hundred pound gorilla, and if you

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Speaker 3: don't know what you're doing, even if you know what

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Speaker 3: you're doing, like in my case, you know, they can

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Speaker 3: really try to rock your world. But I think that

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Speaker 3: with education, the fear lessons and can dissipate altogether. It's

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Speaker 3: kind of what happened with me. Of course, I worked

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Speaker 3: in the belly of the beast, as you mentioned. So

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Speaker 3: the main thing is education. In this day and age.

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Speaker 3: You know, you and I are a little older than

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Speaker 3: some and we have the Internet, the ability to search

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Speaker 3: and do research with a cup of coffee in our hand.

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Speaker 3: You know, back in the day you have to go

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Speaker 3: down to the law library and you know, spend several

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Speaker 3: hours and your family's wondering where are you. It's so

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Speaker 3: much easier now. And so basically I'm just trying to

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Speaker 3: share information with my fellow Americans, let them make up

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Speaker 3: their own minds. But in my case, it changed my

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Speaker 3: life forever.

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Speaker 1: I think part of what you're saying is that the

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Speaker 1: irs is this gorilla. They arrogate to themselves these enforcement powers.

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Speaker 1: They can radio bank accounts, they can do this, and

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Speaker 1: they can do that. But I think what you're saying

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Speaker 1: is that this power rests on a akey or fragile foundation,

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Speaker 1: and the discovery of that was one of the transforming

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Speaker 1: events of your life.

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Speaker 2: So let's sort of begin at the beginning. It's the

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Speaker 2: nineteen nineties.

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Speaker 1: You are a young criminal investigator with the IRS. You

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Speaker 1: have a badge, you have a gun, you have a

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Speaker 1: bulletproof vest, you have handcuffs, you have all the sort

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Speaker 1: of roughneck police enforcement tools, if you will, and you

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Speaker 1: went in kind of believing in the system.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: You had a law enforcement background, you also had an

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Speaker 1: accounting background, and you wanted to be one of the

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Speaker 1: good guys.

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Speaker 3: You couldn't have said it better. Denesh really intended to

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Speaker 3: spend a full twenty year career and you know nice

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Speaker 3: thing about the law enforcement and the FEDS. It's twenty

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Speaker 3: years and you're out on the beach, retired. So you

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Speaker 3: know the reason I took the job, and it was

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Speaker 3: a nice benefit, but absolutely my hire professional life revolved

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Speaker 3: around the income tax. I got a degree from Sansey

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Speaker 3: State University and accounting. Worked in public accounting KPMG, you know,

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Speaker 3: an international accounting firm. I was a controller for a

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Speaker 3: venture capital firm and then decided to spice up my

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Speaker 3: life a little bit by marrying my accounting finance background

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Speaker 3: with law enforcement. And so I applied to both the

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Speaker 3: FBI and the IRS. And in the nineties, you know,

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Speaker 3: the FBI still had a little bit of a good reputation,

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Speaker 3: although it was rapidly disintegrating. But FBI was kind of

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Speaker 3: my first choice, and they had a hiring freeze at

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Speaker 3: the time. You know, this is back when Newton Gingrich

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Speaker 3: was the Speaker of the House and Bill Clinton was

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Speaker 3: in the White House, and so there was a hiring

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Speaker 3: freeze with the FBI. I'm waiting and the IRS calls,

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Speaker 3: and I'm thinking, well, do I really want to work

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Speaker 3: for the IRS? But we had a family friend who

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Speaker 3: had actually spent a whole career with the IRS Criminal

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Speaker 3: Investigation Division, and so I thought, well, actually, he advised

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Speaker 3: you should take whatever job is offered to get in

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Speaker 3: the door, and then if you want to transition over

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Speaker 3: to another agency, you can certainly do that. So it

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Speaker 3: was November of nineteen ninety three that I was sworn

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Speaker 3: in as an IRS Special Agent the Criminal Investigation Division

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Speaker 3: in San Francisco, California. I was born and raised in

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Speaker 3: San Jose, you know, about fifty miles to the south.

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Speaker 3: And I expected, from November of ninety three for the

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Speaker 3: next twenty years to spend a full career serving my government,

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Speaker 3: protecting the treasury and you know, doing the right thing,

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Speaker 3: wearing the white hat. And about three years into my

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Speaker 3: career at the IRS, I was listening to a talk

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Speaker 3: radio show on KSFO out in San Francisco, still there

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Speaker 3: the station, and this lady was on the show talking

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Speaker 3: about the income tax and that most Americans weren't actually

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Speaker 3: required to pay it. There was no law ever passed

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Speaker 3: by Congress, signed by a president that required the average

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Speaker 3: American to pay the income tax. And I'm thinking, well,

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Speaker 3: you know, as you mentioned, you know, handcuffs and bulletproof

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Speaker 3: vest and gun. And it's like, no, lady, We're Americans

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Speaker 3: are required to pay this, and I'm here to make

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Speaker 3: sure of it. But it turned out that after two

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Speaker 3: years of off duty, you know, research, while I would

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Speaker 3: still go to work every day as an IRS criminal investigator,

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Speaker 3: I slowly gathered evidence. I didn't, you know, make anything up.

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Speaker 3: I just looked at Supreme Court case law, the Internal

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Speaker 3: Revenue Code, the Code of Federal Regulations, and you know,

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Speaker 3: more details than I ever saw on the CPA exam

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Speaker 3: or at San Jose State or in the IRS training.

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Speaker 3: But these were details that were in controverty. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the Supreme Court, you know, isn't supposed to be the

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Speaker 3: supreme law of the land once they make a decision.

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Speaker 3: And so over this two year period, you know, driving

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Speaker 3: my wife crazy and not being able to be soccer

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Speaker 3: coach to my kids as much as I would have wanted.

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Speaker 3: I'm after my fifty hour week job. I'm investigating whether

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Speaker 3: this income tax is you know, there's a problem with it.

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Speaker 1: It seems that Joe, it seems that even a little earlier,

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Speaker 1: you describe how you were a young agent and you

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Speaker 1: picked up the IRS sort of manual, the kind of

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Speaker 1: Bible of tax enforcement, and you thought.

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Speaker 2: Hey, I'm this. You know, I'm new in the agency.

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Speaker 1: Let me familiarize myself with the underlying laws and the

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Speaker 1: rules that I'm going to be investigating and enforcing. And

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Speaker 1: you were approached by one of your managers who basically said,

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Speaker 1: and this is well, I shouldn't say humorous, because it's

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Speaker 1: only humorous in a dark sense.

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Speaker 2: Put that book down. You shouldn't be reading that book.

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Speaker 3: Almost word for word. You're right. First day on the job,

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Speaker 3: you know, literally show up, get your key card and

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Speaker 3: go in, and you're sitting at your desk and there's

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Speaker 3: you don't have no cases to work on. Your desk

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Speaker 3: is empty, but there's some reference materials. And among those

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Speaker 3: reference materials was the Internal Revenue Code. So, you know,

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Speaker 3: far be it from me to decide to be productive

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Speaker 3: that the government's paying me and with nothing to do,

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Speaker 3: so I pulled down the Internal Revenue Code and YE

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Speaker 3: look up at this former marine who was my boss,

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Speaker 3: an IR supervisor, and he said that what are you doing.

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Speaker 3: You're no longer a CPA, You're an IRS special agent.

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Speaker 3: You don't need to be looking in those books. I

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Speaker 3: was just I was flummoxed. I couldn't believe it.

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Speaker 1: Now when you did this deep dive, this is a

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Speaker 1: little bit later. You had heard the talk show in

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Speaker 1: San Francisco. You initially thought this is absurdity, But as

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Speaker 1: you dug into it, what did you discover? I mean,

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Speaker 1: the United States was was founded in the eighteenth century,

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Speaker 1: you could almost say based on a tax revolt, right.

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Speaker 1: The founders were rebelling against taxes and other impositions by

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Speaker 1: the crown, the British crown, and the federal income tax

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Speaker 1: did not go into effect in until nineteen thirteen. Did

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Speaker 1: you discover that the foundation for imposing this tax, which

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Speaker 1: has now been in a sense enforced over more than

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Speaker 1: a century, that this foundation was built on Quicksand.

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Speaker 3: It absolutely was. You know, being the CPA at the

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Speaker 3: time and an IRIS special agent, I was kind of

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Speaker 3: biased towards the status quo. And there were just facts

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Speaker 3: that were just never taught to us, and you know,

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Speaker 3: for obvious reasons that would kind of make the house

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Speaker 3: of cards fall. But you're absolutely right. The sixteenth Amendment

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Speaker 3: was was fraudulently ratified, okay, And they you know, there's

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Speaker 3: been the I R s will claim that these these

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Speaker 3: claims are false. But I actually spoke to the man

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Speaker 3: who traveled to all of the con contiguous United States

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Speaker 3: Okay it wasn't Alaska and Hawaii at the time, but

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Speaker 3: traveled to each of their own state archives to gather

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Speaker 3: the evidence because, as you know, Danesh being the historian,

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Speaker 3: three fourths of the states have to ratify an amendment,

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Speaker 3: and so those states have their own ratification evidence in

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Speaker 3: their own archives. And so this gentleman bill Benson traveled

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Speaker 3: to every state and he determined that over and over again,

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Speaker 3: states either changed the language, which, according to the federal

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Speaker 3: government their own advisors and lawyers, it can't be done.

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Speaker 3: They have to ratify down to the comma and the

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Speaker 3: period what the Congress has put out for ratification. So

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Speaker 3: multiple states changed the language, sometimes minor, sometimes major, and

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Speaker 3: state like Kentucky actually voted to reject the sixteenth Amendment.

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Speaker 3: It's in their own archives. Yet the federal government checked

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Speaker 3: Kentucky off as having ratified the sixteenth Amendment. So anyway,

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Speaker 3: the courts have not wanted to touch this with a

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Speaker 3: ten foot poll. But what's interesting is, okay, so let's

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Speaker 3: just pretend the sixteenth Amendment was ratified. That's how the

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Speaker 3: government treats it.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 3: In nineteen sixteen, the Supreme Court ruled that the sixteenth

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Speaker 3: Amendment did not expand federal taxing power. They ruled the

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Speaker 3: Supreme Court ruled that over and over again, and so

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Speaker 3: whatever power the government had from the very beginning in

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Speaker 3: the Constitution remained the same power after the sixteenth Amendment,

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Speaker 3: you know, came into being, came into existence. So and

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Speaker 3: this isn't you know, Joe Bannister's opinion, so Supreme Court

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Speaker 3: saying so so, facts like that showed me that even

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Speaker 3: from the very beginning, there was this you know, let's

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Speaker 3: fit this square peg into a round hole. You know,

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Speaker 3: we're going to get this income tax come hell or

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Speaker 3: high water. And so that's how it began. You know,

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Speaker 3: got some other facts in history. But I'll take a breath.

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Speaker 1: So, Joe, what you do is you take this research

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Speaker 1: and I think people can see you are a sober,

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Speaker 1: meticulous guy, and you lay it out in a kind

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Speaker 1: of document, a document that later perhaps became your book.

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Speaker 1: But you present it to your superiors at the IRS

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Speaker 1: and say, look, I have made some very interesting findings.

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Speaker 1: I would like you to take a look, see if

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Speaker 1: I'm right, if I'm wrong, kind of show me where

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Speaker 1: I'm wrong. And so you sent this document to the IRS,

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Speaker 1: and then what happens.

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Speaker 3: Well, it was a you know, gut punch to get

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Speaker 3: to that point of like, well, I think I need

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Speaker 3: to speak up about this. You know, I took an

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Speaker 3: oath to support and defend the Constitution. All of the

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Speaker 3: Treasury regulations prompted me to speak up about any fraud, waste,

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Speaker 3: or abuse. Even the IRS commissioner at the time had

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Speaker 3: sent out a memo to every IRS employee urging us

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Speaker 3: to report fraud, waste, and abuse. And the timing was

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Speaker 3: interesting because it was around when I was thinking, Wow,

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Speaker 3: there's really a problem here. I need to speak up.

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Speaker 3: So I did. It was February of nineteen ninety nine,

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Speaker 3: and I basically wrote a very long transmittal letter to

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Speaker 3: a company, a ninety five page report, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 3: and I gave it to my immediate supervisor, the same

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Speaker 3: guy who actually suggested that I, you know, sign up

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Speaker 3: with the IRS, because he was a career IRS special agent.

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Speaker 3: And I said, look, I've gone to bat for the agency,

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Speaker 3: the income tax I really have no bias, if anything,

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Speaker 3: I guess for the status quo. Can you help me

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Speaker 3: figure out what's going on here? I mean, I've got

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Speaker 3: a duty to figure out what's going on here. And

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Speaker 3: so it took about a week of digestion for my

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Speaker 3: boss to handed up the chain of command, and then

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Speaker 3: I was called into the chief they recalled him now

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Speaker 3: special Agent in charge into the Santos A office and

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Speaker 3: he sits me down and he says, what I'm about

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Speaker 3: to say, I've been instructed to say We're not going

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Speaker 3: to be answering any of your questions. He provided me

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Speaker 3: with a letter, you know, which is available on my website,

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Speaker 3: memo actually saying we're not going to be responding to

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Speaker 3: any of your questions or concerns. We're going to provide

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Speaker 3: you with the paperwork necessary to tend to your resignation.

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Speaker 3: We're going to send you home for a week of

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Speaker 3: administrative leave for you to decide what to do next.

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Speaker 2: And so they took you bad.

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Speaker 3: Badge and gun were taken, left me with a pager.

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Speaker 3: We're talking the nineties, right, left me with a pager like,

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Speaker 3: you know, don't call us. We'll call you, but in

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Speaker 3: a week, let us know what your decision is. So

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Speaker 3: I went home and after, you know, my wife and

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Speaker 3: family had endured pay cuts to come into the IRS.

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Speaker 3: Sixteen weeks of training in Glencoe, Georgia, lots of late

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Speaker 3: nights doing you know, executing search warrants and kicking indoors

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Speaker 3: and all to come home and tell my wife I

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Speaker 3: don't think I'm gonna have this job much longer. So

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Speaker 3: after during that week, I basically thought to myself, you know,

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Speaker 3: I've seen what the IRS can do to people and

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Speaker 3: one of them, of course, is destroy reputations. And so

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Speaker 3: I decided, since I've you know, earned a good reputation here,

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Speaker 3: I want to keep that so when I'm speaking after

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Speaker 3: I leave, people might believe me. And so I did

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Speaker 3: resign actually on my birthday, February twenty fifth, nineteen ninety nine.

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Speaker 3: February twenty fifth is actually the day that the Secretary

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Speaker 3: of State proclaimed the sixteenth Amendment to be ratified back

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Speaker 3: in nineteen thirteen, So I share the same birthday as

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Speaker 3: the income tax Believe it or.

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Speaker 1: Not, were you in some ways relieved in the sense

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Speaker 1: that you had thought you were on the side of

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Speaker 1: the angels, and your research had convinced you.

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Speaker 2: Hey, guess what you know?

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Speaker 1: All this kicking in of doors, all of this putting

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Speaker 1: people in handcuffs, all of this is based on the

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Speaker 1: assumption that this whole tax business is a legitimate enterprise.

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Speaker 1: But if it is, after all, built on a shaky foundation, then.

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Speaker 2: Why do I want to be a part of that? Right?

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Speaker 1: In other words, I am, in part, I am playing

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Speaker 1: the role of somebody enforcing a dubious or fraudulent grab

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Speaker 1: by the federal government of the hard earned savings of

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Speaker 1: American citizens.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, you know that I was a CPA

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Speaker 3: at the time, the ethics that you're required to adhere

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Speaker 3: to as a CPA, or the background checks that the

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Speaker 3: IRS and the FBI did on me to make sure

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Speaker 3: that I had integrity and could be trusted. I mean,

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Speaker 3: you know, all of the things that the government has

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Speaker 3: in place are to make sure that trust and integrity,

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Speaker 3: you know, and people bucking up and taking responsibility and

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Speaker 3: accountability are there. And yet when I speak of about

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Speaker 3: the income tax and just questioning like, hey, could you

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Speaker 3: help me out here, all those special agents also took

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Speaker 3: an oath just like I did. They were all governed

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Speaker 3: by the same Treasury regulations. We know, like I know,

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Speaker 3: this is a bitter pill, but you know, I think

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Speaker 3: we can get down our throat. Let's just have a discussion.

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Speaker 3: And they showed me the door instead. Very suspicious.

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Speaker 1: Let's fast forward to a sort of a rare opportunity.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it wasn't pleasant in its own way because

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Speaker 1: you were representing, I believe as an accountant in aviation

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Speaker 1: company and the IRS came after you basically saying that you.

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Speaker 2: Had given.

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Speaker 1: Felonious or fraudulent counsel to this company advising them that

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Speaker 1: they don't need to file income taxes. And this makes

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Speaker 1: you a knowing a bad guy, and we're going to

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Speaker 1: go after you with all the tools at our disposal. Now,

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Speaker 1: I have to confess that anyone getting that kind of

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Speaker 1: letter is going to quake a little bit in their boots.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what your reaction was, but you decided

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Speaker 1: to fight, and I'd like to hear your brief account

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Speaker 1: of how it went and what the outcome wise.

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Speaker 3: Well, we're certainly fellow travelers, aren't we, with h.

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Speaker 1: Having cross swords with the uh, with the with a

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Speaker 1: monster that is much bigger than you are, right.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, anyway, so I've always felt for you and

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Speaker 3: you didn't know it anyway. Sorry, Yeah, it was a

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Speaker 3: crazy thing. Uh. So this client approached me and said,

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Speaker 3: you know, I want to sue the I R S

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Speaker 3: for money I've already paid to them, and you have

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Speaker 3: an opportunity to do that for the past three years,

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Speaker 3: generally because it's the three year statute of limitations. And

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Speaker 3: so he asked me, you know, I want a CEPA

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Speaker 3: who can help me follow the rules. So I naively thought, well,

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Speaker 3: that's what I'm supposed to do, right, If a client

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Speaker 3: needs me to help them follow the rules, I know

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Speaker 3: what the rules are, or at least I can look

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Speaker 3: them up and make sure that we follow them. So

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Speaker 3: that's naively why I agreed to help the man. And

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Speaker 3: so it came down to three. He wanted to amend

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Speaker 3: three of his tax returns that he had already filed

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Speaker 3: in the past, and I, as a CPA, prepared the

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Speaker 3: amended tax returns to begin the process of seeking to

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Speaker 3: get his money back. And so as a preparer of

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Speaker 3: the tax returns, I had to sign. As the preparer,

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Speaker 3: you know, the person who files the return the client,

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Speaker 3: they sign it. But if you prepare the tax return

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Speaker 3: for a fee, you have to sign it too, under

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Speaker 3: penalty of perjury. So I did that and then also

337
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,879
Speaker 3: at the same time, but unbeknownst to me, he began

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00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:47,399
Speaker 3: to stop withholding from his employee's paychecks. And there was

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Speaker 3: a New York Times article by this guy, David K. Johnston,

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Speaker 3: who I won't go into, you know my feelings about

341
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Speaker 3: him and his reporting, but anyway, he basically reported that

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00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,360
Speaker 3: I was the pied piper leading this man to make

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Speaker 3: all these decisions. When in fact, it was him making

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00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 3: all of his decisions and then just asking me after

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Speaker 3: the fact, hey, you know, can you help me follow

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Speaker 3: the rules. And so I don't know if it's the

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Speaker 3: DOJ deciding well we're going to believe the New York

348
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Speaker 3: Times or what. But they sent criminal investigators, you know,

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Speaker 3: special agents that I used to work with, to criminally

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Speaker 3: investigate me over this relationship that I had with the client.

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Speaker 3: And so ultimately, in November of two thousand and four,

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Speaker 3: so about five years after I had resigned from the IRS,

353
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Speaker 3: I was indicted on four felony counts. One count was

354
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Speaker 3: a conspiracy to defraud the United States of America, and

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Speaker 3: then three counts of preparing three false federal amended income

356
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Speaker 3: tax returns. And so my trial was about seven months

357
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Speaker 3: later in June two thousand and five, and you know,

358
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Speaker 3: I was having done the job. I was really incredulous, Like,

359
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 3: what's the crime here? I mean, everything that I put

360
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 3: on those amended tax returns was absolutely copied and pasted

361
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 3: right out of the regulations and the statutes and court cases.

362
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 3: There's nothing false or fraudulent. Why would this be turned

363
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 3: into a criminal thing? Lot later, much later, I learned

364
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 3: that you probably know a guy named Rod Rosenstein with

365
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 3: all of your research in this.

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Speaker 1: Of course, Well, Rod Rosenstein was a key figure in

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Speaker 1: the Trump in opening up the Trump Mull investigation, as

368
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Speaker 1: I recall.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so in fact, Rod Rosenstein was the chief of

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Speaker 3: the Tax Division of the DOJ at the time that

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Speaker 3: I was indicted. And I also found out much later

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Speaker 3: that the special agent who investigated me actually recommended that

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Speaker 3: I not be prosecuted. You know, any police report or

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00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 3: criminal investigator report, you end it with a recommendation. And

375
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Speaker 3: typically if you're going to spend two three years on

376
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 3: a criminal investigation, you're going to recommend prosecution. But I

377
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,440
Speaker 3: was told by a very reliable source that he actually

378
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 3: couldn't recommend prosecution because he couldn't find any evidence of

379
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 3: criminal wrongdoing. But you know, Rosenstein and his tax division

380
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Speaker 3: apparently decided, well, we're going to prosecute banister. Anyway.

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Speaker 1: Normally, in these cases, Joe, what they do is they

382
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Speaker 1: come up with they pile up charges, one on top.

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Speaker 2: Of the other.

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Speaker 1: They did that, they add them all up and say, Joe,

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Speaker 1: you're looking at a large number of years in prison.

386
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Speaker 1: But if you agree to sign here and take a

387
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Speaker 1: plea bargain, we'll lock you up for ninety days. So

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Speaker 1: we'll lock you up for six months and you'll be

389
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 1: back out on the street and you can have your

390
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 1: life back. We just need you to plead guilty and

391
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 1: sign here. Did they offer you this kind of a

392
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: strong arm plea deal, which I have to say, is

393
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 1: attractive to people, whether innocent or guilty, because very often

394
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Speaker 1: you don't want to play Russian Roulette with your life, right.

395
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Speaker 1: You don't want to take the chance of being incarcerated

396
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Speaker 1: for a long period of time, wrecking your life, a

397
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: relationship with your family. Talk a little bit about how

398
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 1: you decided. No, I'm going to put this before a jury,

399
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 1: and we're going to let it play out.

400
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Speaker 3: I guess just because I'm not throwing shade on anyone

401
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,640
Speaker 3: that is facing that kind of situation, Danash, I mean

402
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,120
Speaker 3: I not one bit. But in my case, they never

403
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 3: offered me a plea deal.

404
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 2: They were trying to make an example of you.

405
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Speaker 3: It looks like yeah, maybe I'm sure, Yeah, I can't

406
00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 3: expect that their agenda had anything good good to it,

407
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 3: But I really don't know why. But my attorney said, look,

408
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 3: we're required to communicate a plea deal a plea offer

409
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 3: to you and the government's never given one, and I go, well,

410
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 3: I never asked for one, So I guess we're even.

411
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 3: And you know, I don't want to sound arrogant or anything.

412
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 3: I mean, I was, you know, I was scared to death,

413
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 3: like what's going on here? You know. I was arrested

414
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 3: by agents that I used to work with, taken to

415
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 3: from San Jose to Sacramento. They cuffed me in front.

416
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 3: I guess they broke broke protocol being kind to me,

417
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 3: you know, having the photo taken by the US marshals.

418
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 3: I was out within three hours because the prosecutor said,

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00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 3: your honor banister is a former law enforcement he's going

420
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Speaker 3: to be afraid to go into jail. He's going to

421
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 3: he's a flight risk. And the judges looks at him

422
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 3: like are you nuts, you know, because they get the report,

423
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 3: as you know, you know, showing that you're not going

424
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 3: anywhere you own to you had jobs, no criminal record.

425
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Speaker 3: So I was out on a thirty thousand dollars signature bond.

426
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 3: You know, sign this and you promised to repair in court.

427
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 3: You pay thirty thousand if you don't, and that's it.

428
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 3: And I was out and then I had seven months

429
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 3: to prepare. So I guess I just didn't. I just

430
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 3: wasn't going to well for one thing, these tax charges.

431
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 3: Maybe that if I was convicted, maybe three years, maybe

432
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 3: four or five years, I don't know, maybe six, I

433
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 3: don't know. I guess I just you know, if there

434
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 3: was a punishment of life or something like that, maybe

435
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 3: I would have had to edge towards just giving in

436
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 3: and saying, hey, this just ain't going to work for me.

437
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 3: But you know, I thought, I just this is the

438
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 3: punishment is nowhere near compared to what our founders faced,

439
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 3: the men and women who had to go and die

440
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 3: in wars. I mean, I just have to sit here

441
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 3: and express my innocence and let them lie about me.

442
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 3: You know, I got a right to a jury. Let's roll.

443
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 3: Let's just let's just roll the dice. And so I

444
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 3: got a really good defense team Jeffrey dick Stein and

445
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 3: Robert Bernhoft. Robert Bernhoft actually ended up representing Wesley Snipes

446
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 3: later on down the line, and Snipes was acquitted of

447
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 3: all felonies. The longer story about why he was convicted

448
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 3: of the misdemeanors, But anyway, so I had a really

449
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 3: good defense team. The weekend before the trial, the I

450
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 3: R S and the DJ attempted to eject one of

451
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 3: my two defense attorneys, Robert Bernhoff, claiming that they were

452
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 3: they were doing it for my benefit, that the that

453
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 3: mister Bernhoff wasn't competent to represent me, and uh, you

454
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 3: know what a nice, nice DJ to look out for

455
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 3: my best interests. So anyway, that didn't work, thankfully, and

456
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 3: so we had the trial, and we had a videotape.

457
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 3: The client, al Thompson, had actually given the IRIS agents

458
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 3: who investigated him, a videotape of a speech that I

459
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 3: did to his employees, and so the government, you know,

460
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 3: their case was so poor that they ended up using

461
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,439
Speaker 3: this videotape as exhibit a about what a bad guy I was.

462
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 3: And the jury didn't see it that way. They saw,

463
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 3: you know, kind of like I'm talking to you, I mean,

464
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 3: a guy who appears sincere. He's showing us a bunch

465
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 3: of evidence as to why he decided that this income

466
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 3: taxes a scam. And so the jury actually wanted to

467
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 3: see the videotape a second time, so they had to

468
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 3: be brought back into the courtroom and watch the video

469
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 3: a second time, and it turned out that, well, one

470
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 3: other anecdote a couple more. The IRIS agent, a thirty

471
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 3: year veteran who was testifying for the government, couldn't find

472
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 3: a single false or fraudulent entry in those three tax

473
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 3: returns that I prepared. And believe me, my defense attorneys

474
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 3: walked him through every page, every section, paragraphs, you know, sentences.

475
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 3: Is there anything wrong here on page two, anything wrong

476
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 3: on page six, anything fraudulent? No? No, no, no no.

477
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 3: So you know, the jury's scratching their heads, like what

478
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 3: are we doing here. The special agent who testified, who

479
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 3: I used to work with, investigated me, did you find

480
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 3: any evidence of a conspiracy? No? So the jury is

481
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 3: just like crazy, like, Okay, you claim somebody's murdered someone

482
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 3: with a knife, but you don't have a knife, and

483
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 3: you don't have a dead body.

484
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 2: And you don't have a motive.

485
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the great news is that, And

486
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: I think we've gone into this a little bit in

487
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: some detail, because this is a case where the IRS

488
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: had a chance to try to expose the fact that

489
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: your counsel and your ideas are wrong and that their

490
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: enforcement is based on a solid foundation. What you did

491
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 1: was sort of put the IRS on trial in a sense,

492
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: and you won. I mean, you were acquitted of all charges.

493
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: I even saw some brief clips with the jurorsm They

494
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: were like, this guy's on the up and up, and

495
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: so this was a big win for you over the Irs.

496
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: Let me fast forward a little bit to the present,

497
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: because even though you won, this was a little bit

498
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: I mean, this was a harrowing experience, right, And so

499
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: I can envision people listening to this conversation and they're

500
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: gonna say, well, Joe, what do you want me to do?

501
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: Do you want me to go to Freedom Law School?

502
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: Do you want me to begin a process of self education?

503
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: Do you want me to read and educate myself and

504
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: then come to my own decision about whether or not

505
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: this federal income tax is a kind of illegal grab

506
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: by the federal government. Is that your counsel to people

507
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 1: listening to this conversation.

508
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I you know, I've known paim On,

509
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 3: the founder of Freedom Law School, for thirty years, and he,

510
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 3: in fact, when I had a hotel bill that was

511
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 3: about thirty thousand dollars after my trial for all the

512
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 3: lawyers and staff and everyone, he paid it. He he's

513
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 3: there he knows this issue really well. So absolutely the

514
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 3: people should go to Live Free noow dot org. And

515
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 3: you at least take a look my websites Agent for

516
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 3: truth dot com. We really are sincere people. We've come

517
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 3: across evidence that makes you really question whether the IRS

518
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 3: has been lying to us for you know, over one

519
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 3: hundred years. And so I you know, I want people

520
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 3: to educate themselves. And as we said at the outset,

521
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 3: you educate yourself, you become more aware and the fear

522
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 3: will dissipate. And it just it's happened for me, it's

523
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 3: happened for everyone I know, and it's it's a it's

524
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 3: a recipe for success, you know, Lose the fear, gain

525
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 3: the gain the trust through your own eyeballs, in your ears,

526
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 3: and you you'll be much better off. And so if

527
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 3: people lose the fear and then collectively we decide we're

528
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,719
Speaker 3: not We don't want the i RS ganging up on

529
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 3: us one by one anymore. You know, we're going to

530
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 3: gang up as we the people and say we've had

531
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 3: enough of this. Uh. You know, I even have a

532
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 3: blog post as in particular about what I call the

533
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 3: ten forty a scam. The I R S is actually

534
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 3: defrauding their own computer systems in order to get income

535
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 3: tax assessments. They did it to me. I have the

536
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 3: proof of how they did it to me, and Freedom

537
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 3: Law School even has the proof of hundreds of people

538
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 3: over thirty years where the same kind of fraud has

539
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 3: also been perpetrated. So, you know, people can claim in

540
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 3: the government that I'm wrong or I'm trying to b

541
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 3: s people, But how is it that the IRS has

542
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 3: to lie to their own computer systems to get assessments

543
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 3: if indeed they're legit.

544
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: I means so clear to me that one of the

545
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: things we've learned just over the last few years is

546
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: that so many of the agencies that we took for granted,

547
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: we trusted. I'm thinking here of the NIH you know,

548
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: the health authorities, the CDC, the FBI, the DOJ. That

549
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: these governmental institutions are not above unscrupulous lying, unscrupulous propaganda,

550
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: unscrupulous censorship. So it seems to me at the minimum

551
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: that this is something that each of us should really

552
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: investigate for ourselves, and Freedom Law School is a great

553
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: way to do that. Joe Banister, thank you very much

554
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: for joining me.

555
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 3: Thanks to that's great to be with you, Who and

556
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 3: who a