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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions,

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Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the

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Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions

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Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto

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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome this episode

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Speaker 1: of Thinking Christian on doctor James Spencer, and I'm joined

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Speaker 1: today by doctor Jeremy Lungren. He is the president of

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Speaker 1: Nicola Bibla Institute in Norton, Wisconsin, and he also is

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Speaker 1: an instructor of theology at Being College. And he's written

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Speaker 1: a book called The Pursuit of Safety, a Theology of

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Speaker 1: Dounger Risk and Security, and we're going to be talking

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Speaker 1: about that topic today. And I'm just really excited about

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Speaker 1: this because this is such an interesting theological topic that

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's enough coverage. So Jeremy, welcome to

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Speaker 1: the program. Thanks for being here, man.

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Speaker 2: Thanks James, it's a pleasure to be with you.

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Speaker 1: So I mean I actually looked into doing a theology

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Speaker 1: of risk at one point in my doctoral work, and

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Speaker 1: I thought this would be the coolest thing ever, and

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Speaker 1: then ended up doing something on collective remembering and sort

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Speaker 1: of set the risk part aside. So I was really

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Speaker 1: excited to kind of see your book. I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: somebody did it. This is great. I think it's so needed.

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Speaker 1: But give me a sense of why choose this topics?

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Speaker 1: Like what was it about this topic that you're in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there were a couple things kind of earlier in

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Speaker 2: my life. One of the vivid memories I have. I

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Speaker 2: tell this story often is I think it was like

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Speaker 2: the first year of my marriage. My wife and I

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Speaker 2: live in the San Diego area. Drove past an elementary

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Speaker 2: school and it's said, have a safe summer, And I

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Speaker 2: just made the joke to my wife, like how many

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Speaker 2: twelve year old boys are there? Like last day of school?

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Speaker 2: I'm really pumped. I really hope my summer is and

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Speaker 2: then like still in the blank, fun, adventurous, awesome, But

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Speaker 2: then you know what are the teachers and the mom

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Speaker 2: flowed They want the kids to have a safe summer.

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Speaker 2: So I just made a little joke. I poked at it,

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Speaker 2: just just thinking through like is that really like the

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Speaker 2: ideal that we want for kids? And we love our kids,

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Speaker 2: we want them to be safe. But then when you

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Speaker 2: constantly have that message, it's it's saying something to kids,

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Speaker 2: it's saying this is more important than trying something dangerous.

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Speaker 2: This is more important than being stretched or growing or

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Speaker 2: getting hurt and learning how to get back up, things

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Speaker 2: along those lines. So, I mean, I don't know who

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Speaker 2: that who the principle of that school was or what

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Speaker 2: it meant, but that's a pretty common thing that we do.

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Speaker 2: And then my wife and I were missionaries in Kazakhstan

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Speaker 2: for a couple of years, and while we were there,

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Speaker 2: I just noticed oftentimes when you go to a different culture,

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Speaker 2: you notice things about your own culture just by way

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Speaker 2: of contrast. And so just noticing in America the amount

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Speaker 2: of signage, the amount of messaging that we have about

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Speaker 2: safety and things like that just isn't there. And you

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Speaker 2: could talk about our legal structure and insurance and laws

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Speaker 2: and lawyers along those lines, but it was just it

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Speaker 2: was noticeably absent, and it was on my mind, and

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Speaker 2: so that got me going. I did my Masters of

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Speaker 2: Theology at Talbot School of Theology, and that's kind of

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Speaker 2: where I first started thinking about the idea something related

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Speaker 2: to safety, maybe risk, something along those lines, and just

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Speaker 2: started pursuing that, started studying it, as you mentioned, just

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Speaker 2: finding that there wasn't a there weren't a lot of

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Speaker 2: books or people that were addressing this topic from a

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Speaker 2: theological perspective. You found some stuff on like missions why

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Speaker 2: we as Christians ought to be willing to take risk,

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Speaker 2: but I really wanted to I spent a lot of

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Speaker 2: time kind of looking historically at why we think about

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Speaker 2: safety in the way that we do, why we pursue

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Speaker 2: it in the way that we do, and so kind

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Speaker 2: of looking back at kind of some broad societal and

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Speaker 2: cultural developments that get us to where we're at today.

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Speaker 2: So that's a very brief overview of kind of how

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Speaker 2: I got into that topic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's helpful. I mean, I think it's interesting. As

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Speaker 1: I read through the book one of the I mean

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Speaker 1: it's the first chapter, but Tokens of Safety, I thought

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Speaker 1: that was a really interesting way to sort of bring

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Speaker 1: us into this topic, and so maybe talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about that, just to get people an entree into safety.

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Speaker 1: Tokens of Safety what you're real to talk about there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So again kind of using that tool of evaluating

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Speaker 2: the culture by looking at like some of that came

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Speaker 2: from the outside, and they would look at that and

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Speaker 2: they would say what stands out here? What what do

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Speaker 2: I notice? And if you were to go to for

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Speaker 2: us as Americans, to go to another another culture and

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Speaker 2: somewhere where there's another religion being practiced, we might notice, oh,

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Speaker 2: there are a lot of religious tokens, or there are

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Speaker 2: a lot of you know, what are those things hanging mean?

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Speaker 2: Or what are these little amulets or whatever those things are.

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Speaker 2: So that's why I use the word token kind of

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Speaker 2: in that sense of an outsider coming to America would

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Speaker 2: look and say, there's all these signs that have similar

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Speaker 2: coloring and similar symbols, whatever those represent, that must be

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Speaker 2: something really important to this, to this culture. And so

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Speaker 2: you look at it and you notice that it's it's

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Speaker 2: related to physical safety. And so you say, and again,

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Speaker 2: that's something that is common to all cultures, that we

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Speaker 2: have ways of noticing dangers or communicating with each other

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Speaker 2: about dangers. But I just thought this is a way

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Speaker 2: to highlight that this is something very important in our

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Speaker 2: culture and at least to just say, let's not take

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Speaker 2: this as a given. Let's not say that's just the

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Speaker 2: way it ought to be. But let's ask some questions

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Speaker 2: and say how important is safety? How does it rank

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Speaker 2: related to other good things?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and if she looked at it sort of through history,

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Speaker 1: you you do deal with a lot of the inherent

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Speaker 1: risk of life. Suppose we get to sight right, and

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Speaker 1: so maybe help us think through I don't know where

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Speaker 1: the balance is the right word, but the relationship, maybe

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Speaker 1: the trade off between danger and risk, between danger risk

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Speaker 1: and see something like that.

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Speaker 2: Boy, well, it depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we live in a fallen world. I have

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Speaker 2: fun with my students. I'll ask them questions about could

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Speaker 2: Adam and Eve have have like accidentally tripped and fallen

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Speaker 2: or injured themselves in Eden or something like that. And

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Speaker 2: so when we look at the man, so the fact

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Speaker 2: that we have dangers. The Psalms talk a lot about

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Speaker 2: how death encroaches on us or other things, hunger and

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Speaker 2: thirst and enemies are coming after us. And so I

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Speaker 2: think we have to take that theologically as just a

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Speaker 2: constant reminder that we're sinners, that we're guilty before God

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Speaker 2: that we live under well apart from Christ, Hebrew says

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Speaker 2: that people live under the fear of death. And so

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Speaker 2: obviously that's the big one. When we think about navigating

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Speaker 2: not navigating things or taking risks is and I say that,

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Speaker 2: and maybe this is like going to extreme, but I

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Speaker 2: say that because you start boiling things back. And what

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Speaker 2: am I willing to risk? And what am I not

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Speaker 2: willing to risk? And what do I do if I

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Speaker 2: lose this thing that is important to me, whether it's

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Speaker 2: wealth or material goods, whether it's an injury to yourself

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Speaker 2: or someone you care about. But the ultimate thing that

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Speaker 2: we are worried about is death. And so Jesus talks

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Speaker 2: about that where we look at a life following him

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Speaker 2: and he just goes right there and he says, do

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Speaker 2: not fear those who can destroy the body. But after that,

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Speaker 2: I have nothing more they can do. Fear him who

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Speaker 2: can destroy both body and soul, and hell, it's it's

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Speaker 2: it's very rare though that on an every day in

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Speaker 2: everyday life that we face these matters of life and

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Speaker 2: death and uh, in kind of a total sense. But

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Speaker 2: then we can also think about some things are more

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Speaker 2: life giving and some things right, some things lead to

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Speaker 2: life and some things lead away from life, they lead

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Speaker 2: to death. And so we have to think about the

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Speaker 2: things that we're doing. Are they good? Are we are

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Speaker 2: we okay with with the cost that might be involved.

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Speaker 2: So on a very practical example, which I think is

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Speaker 2: where your question was going originally, was just like I

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Speaker 2: don't know, like how far do you let your kids

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Speaker 2: go off to play?

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Speaker 1: Uh?

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Speaker 2: That might be a good example, right, because you say, well,

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Speaker 2: they can go in the front yard, but they need

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Speaker 2: to you know, don't don't go across the curb into

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Speaker 2: the street, or they can be on our street, but

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Speaker 2: don't go around the corner, or whatever it is for

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Speaker 2: the characters. We're thinking about those things because we want

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Speaker 2: we want our kids to have some level of freedom.

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Speaker 2: We want them to hang out and play with the

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Speaker 2: kids down the street, all those sorts of things. And

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Speaker 2: so how you figure that out exactly that that there's

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Speaker 2: no formula for it, But we just we look and

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Speaker 2: we say, I want I want my kids to grow

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Speaker 2: up and to be competent, to live in this world,

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Speaker 2: to be able to do things, to overcome difficulties. See,

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Speaker 2: it does take. It does take wisdom and figuring out

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Speaker 2: just kind of like where where we draw those lines.

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Speaker 2: It's hard, though, let me ask. So.

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Speaker 1: I teach a course for Wheaton in their leadership program,

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Speaker 1: and one of the things I talked about with leaders

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Speaker 1: is this idea of the worst case scenario. When they're

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Speaker 1: in leadership, you're you're trying to figure out you're in

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Speaker 1: a complex scenario, trying to make a good decision. It's

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Speaker 1: like you might consider, well, what's the worst case scenario here? Right,

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Speaker 1: And so I said, I think we need to usually

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Speaker 1: talk to him about we need to think about the

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Speaker 1: worst case scenarios on multiple levels. Right, You've got the

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Speaker 1: worst case scenarios for the organization and just strictly for

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Speaker 1: the organization. It's not theological, it's not philosophical, like we

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Speaker 1: parst these things out right. I suppose in reality we can't,

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Speaker 1: but for the purposes of instruction, it works. See, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's organizational worst case scenario. It's like, you know, the

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Speaker 1: organization loses all its money and has to you know,

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Speaker 1: lay off all its employees and it goes out of business.

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Speaker 1: You know that maybe maybe that's the worst case scenarios.

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Speaker 1: But from a biblical and theological pushalective. There's another worst

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Speaker 1: case scenarios, which is maybe something like succeeding by not

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Speaker 1: being loyal to chroisty hm, you know, or you know,

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Speaker 1: being able to continue in disobedience, well, you know, instead

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Speaker 1: of pointing to and glorifying God, right, something that would

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Speaker 1: be like the sort of basic betrayal or of our

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Speaker 1: faith is really the worst case scenario that even as

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Speaker 1: leaders in organizations, he had to be cognizant of that

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Speaker 1: there is a way for us to dishonor God in

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Speaker 1: all of this. And so I was reading your book,

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about the you know, that sort of

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Speaker 1: approach to this, and you sit back and you say, well,

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Speaker 1: there is there a fundamental category of risk or risks

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Speaker 1: it back and says, our vulnerabilities always put us at

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Speaker 1: risk of being disloiled to God, and so how do

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Speaker 1: we cultivate us safety then that sort of deep vulnerability

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Speaker 1: in a broken he or what does that even look like?

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Speaker 1: And so I was wondering if you had any sort

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Speaker 1: of take on that.

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Speaker 2: So I think what I hear you saying is because

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Speaker 2: there are vulnerabilities, whether it's organizational or professional or even personal,

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Speaker 2: that there's this temptation that those vulnerabilities caused us to

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Speaker 2: be tempted to somehow compromise on our theology, compromise on

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Speaker 2: our core commitment to Christ.

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Speaker 1: That's right. I mean, I think we see this in

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Speaker 1: the Old Testament for instance. You know, maybe you put

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Speaker 1: it in well, I mean even in the garden. You know,

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Speaker 1: you don't exactly have vulnerabilities there, but the decision seems

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Speaker 1: to be that we want to be like God, you know,

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Speaker 1: we want to elevate from our current position to this

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Speaker 1: new position. You probably see it more in something like

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Speaker 1: a Genesis eleven. Ones are not our Babbel narrative where

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Speaker 1: they don't want to be skeptyes, right, they want to

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Speaker 1: be together, and so in order to be together we

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Speaker 1: take these steps, and these steps end up being really

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Speaker 1: in a friction wish what God would want? You see

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Speaker 1: what I'm meaning.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting how you put it, because the title

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Speaker 2: of the book, the Pursuit of Safety, came as I

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Speaker 2: was writing it. I just was using that phrase a lot. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: oftentimes in my mind it added kind of a negative

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Speaker 2: sense to it because I was trying to describe what

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Speaker 2: our world does, and I just wanted to say we

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Speaker 2: want to be safe, but apart from God, when are

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Speaker 2: we truly saying, but we're oursuing this thing? And can

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Speaker 2: we ever get to it? And so so as I

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Speaker 2: think about those vulnerabilities that we have, those temptations that

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Speaker 2: we have, which as you say, those are actually the

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Speaker 2: dangers to pursue safety apart from God. And so you're

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Speaker 2: asking like, how do we how do we stop that?

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Speaker 2: How do we how do we see our safety in

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Speaker 2: relationship to God? Is where my mind went. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: in the Old Testament you see that so much with

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Speaker 2: with with idolatry, that's the bad. That's one of the

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Speaker 2: very common frameworks is you know, why did Israel go

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Speaker 2: after those idols? Because they wanted rain for their crops,

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Speaker 2: because they wanted to be successful in war, because they

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Speaker 2: had fleshly desires that they you know, the law of

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Speaker 2: God prohibited, but they could indulge in those things with

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Speaker 2: these other gods. And so there were there were those

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Speaker 2: other things that they desired, and over and over again

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Speaker 2: they wouldn't trust in God. And I think about in Isaiah,

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Speaker 2: there are a number of verses that say those who

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Speaker 2: trust in the Lord, or those who wait on the

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Speaker 2: Lord won't be put to shame. And so that's what

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Speaker 2: I think, that's what a positive thing, that's what we

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Speaker 2: need to be building up in our lives is to say,

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Speaker 2: I am vulnerable as a creature. I am vulnerable, you know,

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Speaker 2: because I'm a sinner who's been redeemed, but still I'm

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Speaker 2: in this corruptible body, this body that can be harmed.

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Speaker 2: And these the possessions I have, the things I use

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Speaker 2: in this world, moth and rusk can destroy them. And

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Speaker 2: so just just that attitude of the heart of going

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Speaker 2: to God and saying I'm going to wait on you,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to trust in you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So I think I really started thinking about this,

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Speaker 1: this idea that just sort of surrounds theirs. In the

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Speaker 1: chapter I'm around ordering Creation talking there about technology, idols,

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Speaker 1: and the Cross of Christ, and you just think about

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Speaker 1: those three things together, and I mean, I my mind

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Speaker 1: was going all over the place in that chapter, because

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Speaker 1: you know, you have something like building a parrot builder

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Speaker 1: on the top of your house, right, I mean we

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Speaker 1: see this in the in the legal literature, and it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: that's a firm of technology that we're using now to

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Speaker 1: develop a safety net, so to speak. Form so that

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Speaker 1: people don't fall off the house, right. I mean, oh,

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Speaker 1: you have you have appropriate uses for this stuff, but

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Speaker 1: then you also have extremely inappropriate uses for this stuff.

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Speaker 1: And so I appreciate you saying like it comes back

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Speaker 1: to wisdom, but I'd be interested to hear you talk

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Speaker 1: even a little bit about how you think through technology

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Speaker 1: from a risk and safety perspective, and then maybe we

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Speaker 1: can talk back on what you what you do in

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Speaker 1: that chapter with Across of Christ.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if you've read much of the

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Speaker 2: Jacqua Alul. He talks about Cain and the city that

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Speaker 2: he builds, And I don't agree with everything that that

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Speaker 2: Alul says, but you just he gets your mind, your

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Speaker 2: imagination going and thinking through what was Cain trying to

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Speaker 2: do in building the city. There's the textual irony there

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Speaker 2: that he went to the land of wandering to establish himself,

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Speaker 2: to establish that. Yeah, it's just a great like sociological

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Speaker 2: and psychological and fundamentally spiritual insight to say you're cast

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Speaker 2: out of the presence of God, you murder your brother.

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Speaker 2: There's some pride and some hubris involved in that. And

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Speaker 2: then Cain becomes the forefather of all these early technologies.

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Speaker 2: You read his genealogy, and his descendants are known for

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Speaker 2: basics and agriculture and technology and music and things along

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Speaker 2: those lines, things which aren't inherently evil. Uh but but

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Speaker 2: there's some sense in which humanity's earliest development of technology

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Speaker 2: is you think about it on just a very primal

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Speaker 2: level of you need food and shelter and things like that. Confession.

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Speaker 2: I've watched a couple of YouTube videos about like architecture

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Speaker 2: and designing houses, and the lady talks about how we

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Speaker 2: love to be when you go to a restaurant or

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Speaker 2: a coffee shop, you want to sit in a corner

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Speaker 2: because it makes you feel safe, you know, and a

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Speaker 2: lot of little things like that and interesting. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's so true that that technology we oftent has the

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Speaker 2: technology we can't get past, like the glowy screen and

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Speaker 2: the flashy lights, and just say, what is this thing

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Speaker 2: doing to my heart? And I mean it does a

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Speaker 2: lot of things to our hearts related to our relationships

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Speaker 2: with other people, our needs to feel important and efficient

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Speaker 2: and all those things. So when it comes to safety,

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Speaker 2: you just say, the technology, whatever it is, if it's

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Speaker 2: a parapet wall a thousand years ago, if it's you know,

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Speaker 2: a seat belt one hundred years ago, or if it's

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Speaker 2: an air bag and the automatic breaking systems and all

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Speaker 2: the sensors today, Like what is what is that thing

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Speaker 2: promising you? What is it giving you? Uh? And and

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Speaker 2: it's it's giving you at least some perception of control

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Speaker 2: of the physical world around you. And again you go

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Speaker 2: back to Caine, and he didn't want to trust God, right,

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Speaker 2: he wanted to go out and do it on his

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Speaker 2: own without trusting God. And I think a little is

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Speaker 2: right that in our quest for technology, that's not all

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Speaker 2: that technology is, but there are certainly remnants of that

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Speaker 2: in uh, in what we're doing, like like what are

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Speaker 2: we chasing when we're building these things? I am? I

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Speaker 2: almost asked this question in a sermon I preached recently

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Speaker 2: out a church, but I wanted to ask the question

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Speaker 2: you think about our phones, the tracking and for families,

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Speaker 2: like if you're a mom and you've got your kids,

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Speaker 2: you can find my phone or whatever. And I just

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Speaker 2: wanted to like ask the questions. So ask this question

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Speaker 2: for the audience. Since you've gotten that feature, are you

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Speaker 2: less anxious or more anxious?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: Because where are you going? I am ten years ago

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Speaker 2: when Life three sixty he is becoming the thing or

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Speaker 2: more than that? What was it promising you? Is promising

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Speaker 2: you like, where are my kids right now? What are

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Speaker 2: they doing? And it was going to take away that anxiety.

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Speaker 2: And so that's my question, are you less anxious or

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Speaker 2: more anxious? You said, you know your answer, I'm furious

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Speaker 2: what it is.

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Speaker 1: Well, i'd say my answer is because so we got

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Speaker 1: Life three sixty and as a gen x er right

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Speaker 1: who grew up with the pub service ads that said,

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Speaker 1: it's ten o'clock to know where your children are? All right?

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Speaker 1: You remember, I els, I'm looking at this thing, going

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Speaker 1: this is nuts, right, And so early on I was

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Speaker 1: kind of tracking the kids all over the place. And

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Speaker 1: then my son got in a car accident. Nobody's really hurt,

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Speaker 1: but he gets in an accident, and you all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden to realize that the only thing this thing

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Speaker 1: is good for is completely reacted. Right, he's hurt off

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Speaker 1: that accident. I can't do anything right. I can only

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Speaker 1: get to where he is a few minutes faster. And

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Speaker 1: so I kind of stopped using it unless I want

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Speaker 1: the kids to stopping by the store or something like that.

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Speaker 1: But I like early on, I could definitely feel it's like,

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Speaker 1: oh man, where are they what are they doing with it?

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Speaker 1: And and now I just kind of use it as

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Speaker 1: this could be convenient for me if they're if they're

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Speaker 1: out and about close to somewhere that I need something,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to ask him to pick it up. But

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Speaker 1: I can definitely say it would it would drive me

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Speaker 1: crazy if I read it. But I think it was

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Speaker 1: my son's accident where I just kind of sat back

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, this thing isn't keeping anybody's right. It's

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Speaker 1: only allowing me to react a little bit quipment or would.

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Speaker 1: And the reality was, you know, when I got there

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Speaker 1: on my son's accident, the cops already there. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's there are people who were handling it.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: I'm just now there as sort of emotional support and

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Speaker 1: that's it. So yeah, I think we've gone a little

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Speaker 1: overboard with some of its.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, my daughter got into an accident reason, you know,

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Speaker 2: and again not not really hurt, dis damage to another

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Speaker 2: kid's car. And the funny thing with that was that

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Speaker 2: her phone since she was in an accident, and then

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Speaker 2: there are some sort of safety settings that we didn't

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Speaker 2: set up and we didn't really know what they were doing,

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Speaker 2: so it called like another teenage of hers, a guy

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Speaker 2: that was somehow her default emergency compact. And then her

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Speaker 2: phone was as she's sitting there recovering, the phone was

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Speaker 2: just blasting, you've been in an accident. You've been in

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Speaker 2: an accident or something like that, as she's trying to

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Speaker 2: turn it off and the battery is almost dead and

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Speaker 2: it was, and then her friends wondering, why are you

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Speaker 2: calling me? So she's she's dealing with all that stuff,

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Speaker 2: and you know, those questions are worth asking Are you

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Speaker 2: less anxious now because of it? And I think it

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Speaker 2: reveals a lot of important things. It reveals that we

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Speaker 2: have an ability as people, as families, as cultures to

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Speaker 2: take new technology. And the way I describe it in

405
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Speaker 2: the book is technology at first kind of like shocks you.

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Speaker 2: It overwhelms you, and it's this new, strange thing, and

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Speaker 2: we're afraid of it, but we're also drawn to it,

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Speaker 2: and then it just becomes normal. When we talk about technology,

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Speaker 2: we usually mean like screens and devices like that. Today,

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Speaker 2: you know, I don't mean the chair that I'm sitting

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Speaker 2: on or troelace. Is there anything though that's technology. But

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Speaker 2: that's just we've incorporated that, so we're used to it. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So so it shows us that, yeah, that we have

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Speaker 2: like this emotional response to technology. Uh, it also shows

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Speaker 2: us that we could manage it. I liked what you

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Speaker 2: said about Uh you could let it, Uh life three

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Speaker 2: sixty stress you out if you wanted to. So it

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Speaker 2: shows Okay, you've got some level of control over that.

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Speaker 2: You don't have to be controlled by it. You can,

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Speaker 2: you can exercise wisdom, take control, take some control. So

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Speaker 2: when we think about technology and safety, that that's one

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Speaker 2: of the themes that I was thinking a lot about

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Speaker 2: was what do we do with the promises that technology makes?

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Speaker 2: You can think of lots of ironic examples of technology

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Speaker 2: that makes one thing safer and three other things more dangerous,

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Speaker 2: and what you know, what do you what do you

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Speaker 2: do with those things? And and how how do we

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Speaker 2: navigate those things? But it's just I don't know. I

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Speaker 2: would encourage all of us to have not to be

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Speaker 2: under impressed with technology.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I've always kind of thought of our hearts technology,

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Speaker 1: and I think especially in those cane narratives you look

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Speaker 1: at those maybe even the fig leaf and the skin

434
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,199
Speaker 1: coverings that God gives you know, right early, you know,

435
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 1: just a chaper before, but as a response to brokenness.

436
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 1: Technology is a response to brokenness. And so with with Cain,

437
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 1: you know, he is pushed out of this from before

438
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:32,919
Speaker 1: the face of God, given the mark so that nobody

439
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: kills him. But now he's he's also been alienated from

440
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 1: the land. But no, God tells him that the lend

441
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 1: is not going to meel the fruit that it used

442
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 1: to for him, and so he's got to find a

443
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: whole different way of life. And it's almost like, well,

444
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: there's no there's no real big surprise that technology was

445
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,159
Speaker 1: one of the solutions that he ends upwards, that he

446
00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,880
Speaker 1: goes down, builds this sea, that his family develops pichologies

447
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 1: through their agers. It's he's sent out in a very

448
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 1: vulnerable physician, and I guess that that'd be My next

449
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 1: question is, how do you really see when you're talking

450
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 1: about risk and vulnerability? Are those two sides of the

451
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 1: same coin, Like, are they worries, sentinives or would you

452
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: distinguish anything between those two.

453
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 2: Vulnerable the word vulnerable, the root of that just means woundable, Uh,

454
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 2: that you're able to be wounded. Uh. And then with risk.

455
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 2: The kind of the earlier usage usage of the word risk, uh,

456
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 2: implied that there was something to gain. So usually when

457
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 2: we talk about being being vulnerable, Uh, yeah, it's just

458
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 2: the fact that you have you know, metaphorically and underbelly

459
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 2: right their soft their soft spots. We often use that

460
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 2: word more often in a relational or emotional sense, you know,

461
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 2: being vulnerable with each other. But I think that people

462
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 2: will make arguments that it's it's good to be vulnerable

463
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 2: with other people because there are gains to be made

464
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 2: because of it. So in that sense, you could say

465
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 2: you're you're taking a risk where you're saying, I'm gonna

466
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 2: put myself out there with this other person, or maybe

467
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 2: maybe in a more physical sense of I'm gonna be

468
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 2: I'm exposing myself to a possible infection, or you know,

469
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 2: if you pick up someone stranded on the side of

470
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 2: the road, you're you're you're making yourself vulnerable to who

471
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 2: is this person and what what might you do? Uh?

472
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,360
Speaker 2: But but you're saying there are things to be gained

473
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 2: for it of showing kindness to this person that needs help.

474
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 2: So you're you're willing to put yourself in something of

475
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 2: a vulnerable situation. Uh yeah. And and then with risk,

476
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 2: we all we often think about it as you know,

477
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 2: to take the risk and you can't win if you

478
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 2: don't play type thing. Uh though oftentimes risk today, risk

479
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 2: is often used more as a synonym just danger, where

480
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 2: you don't necessarily have that what's the thing that can

481
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,959
Speaker 2: be gained when you take a risk. It's more like

482
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 2: that's a risk, be careful, just that's something that can

483
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 2: harm you. So that's a little I spent a lot

484
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 2: of time kind of parson those words and looking.

485
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: A little Yeah, what do you see as the I mean,

486
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: I know you cover the late modern risk in the book,

487
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: but do you see what you see today as our

488
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 1: big risks?

489
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:31,120
Speaker 2: Oh? What? I I was finishing writing this during COVID,

490
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 2: so that was on my mind. A lot was easy

491
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,199
Speaker 2: to identify then, Yeah, yeah, I had written most of

492
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 2: it before that, but was kind of finishing up and

493
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 2: editing that kind of during that timeframe. So that was

494
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 2: the one issue that was on my mind. And obviously

495
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 2: there are a lot of politics involved in those things

496
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 2: as well, and so that was obviously that was a

497
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 2: snapshot of how we as a society, how how we

498
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 2: just look at how dangerous is this thing? What do

499
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 2: we need to do all those sorts of things. I

500
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 2: don't know if I don't think I have anything ground

501
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 2: for either or know what's say about about COVID in particular.

502
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 2: But what are our risks today? I think a lot

503
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 2: about children. I think a lot and young adults. You know,

504
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 2: I work here at Nickolay Bible institu do with like,

505
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 2: you know, eighteen to twenty four year olds and just

506
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 2: looking at their lives a lot, And probably the thing

507
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 2: that's the biggest on my heart is our unwillingness to

508
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 2: let them take risks and experience real consequences for things.

509
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 2: And we do that under the under this idea of

510
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 2: protecting them and helping them develop. But then I look

511
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 2: at people. I think of young men, They're hungry to

512
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 2: be challenged, they want to be pushed, they want to

513
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 2: be stretched. I see, I see a lot of guys

514
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 2: rise to the occasion with that. So that's that's one

515
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 2: of the big things that concerns me is how the

516
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 2: older generation is kind of trying to protect younger people,

517
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 2: but but in doing so cutting them off from developing

518
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 2: and growing and learning. How to you know what, what's

519
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 2: the worst that can happen. Well, you know, the worst

520
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 2: that can happen rarely happens, but something bad happens. And okay,

521
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:31,239
Speaker 2: so how do you how do you get up? How

522
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 2: do you how do you overcome that? I think about

523
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 2: that a lot.

524
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you think? I mean, when you think about

525
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: risks throughout the ages? You know, obviously there are some

526
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: of these that are going to be like physical risks.

527
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: And I just finished up to the talking new guy

528
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: about their German Reformation and he's like, you know, in

529
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: Martin Luther's a Day, basically people are just dying right

530
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: insign of you. I mean it you physical risks of

531
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: just life, info, mortality, illness, play, you know, all those things.

532
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: Those are real, tangible risks sitting right in front of you.

533
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: But then you also have sort of the what we

534
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: might call the symbolic risk, right, that's presence within the

535
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: institutions of the day, which were selling of indulgences and

536
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: being taken advantage of by an institution that really should

537
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: have been for you but ended up being against you,

538
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: you know, and not and having sort of an ignorance

539
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: of what's going on simply because you you don't read,

540
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: you don't you know, you don't speak labs, you don't

541
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: you know all these different things that were going on

542
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: in that Reformation period. So you've got these two like

543
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: sort of very tangible risk, but then you've got also

544
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: this subversive risk. Right do you see that across I'm

545
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: sure you see it across all periods, But I'm kind

546
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: of wondering how you think about the Is that a

547
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: distinction that matters?

548
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 2: Now? That that's really good. It makes me think of

549
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 2: when Jesus says that life is more than food and

550
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 2: the body is more than clothing. Yeah, and you think, well,

551
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 2: what is it then? And and on that physical level

552
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 2: where there's you know, in the fifteen hundreds, where there's

553
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 2: infant mortality, there there are diseases and things like that,

554
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 2: and that those are the sicknesses of the body. Those

555
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 2: are the life and death things, and those things are

556
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 2: so important and they just they have a way of

557
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 2: shouting at you when things are going on on that level.

558
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 2: And Jesus says life is more than this, right, and

559
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 2: so what is that more? And so when you're talking

560
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 2: about some of those symbolic risks, I think that we

561
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 2: could look at those things and say that's pointing to

562
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 2: the more. Whatever Jesus is talking about when says life

563
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 2: is more than than life, is more than clothing the body,

564
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 2: And now I'm misquoting Jesus, but whatever the more is there,

565
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 2: and it's it's it's God gives us life. But what

566
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 2: is this life for? What is its purpose? What is

567
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: its teleology? Or it's tell us where is it going?

568
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 2: And one of the criticisms that we can make of

569
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 2: the current age that we live in is that we

570
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 2: don't have an end. We don't give any goals for

571
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 2: our young people to pursue, even like within this life,

572
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 2: right you could say the you know, seventy to eighty

573
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 2: years that God gives you on this earth. There's an

574
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 2: arc to that. There's there are creational goods, there are

575
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 2: careers and families and things that you can be doing,

576
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 2: sacrifices that are worth making, discipline risks that you can

577
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 2: take just within the horizon of time of the days

578
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 2: on this earth. And we don't even give young people

579
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 2: that so often. And I think that people want to know, like,

580
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 2: I'm preserving my life, but what am I saving it for? What?

581
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 2: Like I want to spend in my life? I want

582
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 2: to use my life, So if I'm saving it now,

583
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 2: what is it for then? Obviously, as for us as Christians,

584
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 2: we look beyond the horizon of death, we look beyond

585
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 2: the rison of time to say we are we want

586
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 2: to take risks, We want to be pushing for the

587
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 2: age to come as well, and we need to give

588
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 2: that to young people. We need to encourage them. We

589
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 2: need to always match that with wisdom. I know people

590
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: get concerned that then you're going to have just just

591
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 2: kind of foolish danger, and Proverbs talks a lot about that, right,

592
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 2: the fool just walks into trouble, and we don't want that.

593
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 2: That's not what we're trying to encourage. Where we are

594
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 2: trying to trying to encourage people to step out in

595
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 2: a world where we don't know the future, we don't

596
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 2: know what tomorrow holds, where we take actions, and we

597
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,239
Speaker 2: don't know exactly what the outcome is going to be.

598
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 2: But Safety says, you always want to know what the

599
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 2: outcome is going to be before you do the thing.

600
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: So, I mean, I'm gonna try to pull a couple

601
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,719
Speaker 1: of strands together this conversation, right, So, I know you've

602
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 1: got a chapter of the book on discipleship. You mentioned

603
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: working with young people, and these young men who are

604
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 1: yearning for something more a sense of adventure or a

605
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 1: desired pushed you know, and then we've got this sort

606
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: of symbolic risk kind of concept, and this this more

607
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: than you know, clothing more than a food kind of idea.

608
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,240
Speaker 1: And I think one of the things I've been concerned

609
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 1: with sort lately that I see is a risk. I

610
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:45,439
Speaker 1: suppose it is like is like Andrew t o right,

611
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:51,439
Speaker 1: So not them particularly, okay, but in the vapping where

612
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,240
Speaker 1: young men don't have that purpose and we're not giving

613
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 1: them that purpose, people like Andrew Bait or even in

614
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: Christian verse Joe ta right who call young men team

615
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 1: Chiesmo and bravado and as opposed to calling them to discipleship,

616
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: to me is a real areer. And so maybe talk

617
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 1: true for me a little bit at how a real

618
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: how you see the connection of discipleship being part of

619
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 1: developing an appropriate understanding of safety and risk?

620
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I haven't consumed a lot of Andrew Tate content,

621
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 2: but but I've heard of described several times basically how

622
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:38,439
Speaker 2: you did.

623
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: It's as well as you think it is. Yeah, I

624
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,760
Speaker 1: don't watch it either, but it's yeah, all.

625
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 2: Right, and and so yeah, so the concern is, you know,

626
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 2: what what do we do with with young guys in

627
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 2: particular who are what like well, like I guess on

628
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 2: the face of it, they would be like not living

629
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 2: godly lives, being disrespectful to women, being prideful, selfish thing.

630
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,240
Speaker 1: Is that kind of the it's sort of the tone

631
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 1: and maybe the maybe the question is just this, like,

632
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: I think we've got a lot of I think there

633
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 1: is content out there within the Christian world that does

634
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: something similar to what Andrew Tate is doing, and it's

635
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: calling these these young men to be masters of their

636
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 1: domain in like sort of a like I said, a

637
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 1: machismo way. I don't know whether you ever watched pro wrestling,

638
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 1: but you know there used to be this guy who

639
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:49,800
Speaker 1: was oozing machismo right like you. I can't remember Razor Ramone,

640
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 1: I think is what his name work. And you know,

641
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 1: he'd come out and he was like this uber macho guy.

642
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 1: And it feels like what we're what we're pushing these

643
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: many young men to is that machismo, right. It's not,

644
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 1: it's not a real substance. It's just almost like this

645
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: facade of manliness as opposed to something more deeply rooted

646
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 1: in discipleship. And so okay, we don't have to go

647
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 1: to the manhood route, but that really more example. But

648
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: I guess my question is how do we link up

649
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:25,359
Speaker 1: this notion of safety and risk to discipleship, Like how

650
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 1: do these things connect together? Do they emerge out of discipleship?

651
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 1: So we begin to understand risk reward, We begin to

652
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,919
Speaker 1: understand you know, safety, danger, Like how do you see

653
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 1: those things fitting together? What's the role of discipleship maybe

654
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:42,399
Speaker 1: in developing a theology or.

655
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, so discipleship following Jesus living living a life like his.

656
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 2: And it's an interesting topic. It's it's not one that

657
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 2: I've I've connected to my book a lot. Yeah, I'm

658
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 2: trying to think think through because I don't I don't

659
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 2: want to discourage young men from taking appropriate risks, and

660
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 2: I don't want to, like I think, you know, God

661
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 2: created a male and female. There's masculinity and femininity, and

662
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 2: so I want there to be good masculinity. And I

663
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 2: don't know, you know, people look at studies of whether

664
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 2: men are more willing to take risks than women and

665
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 2: things like that, so there's probably something to them. Just

666
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 2: the way men and women are created, or you look

667
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 2: at the role of a mother with a young child

668
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 2: and the role of a fadder, and so I want

669
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 2: to be careful like not to not to discourage like

670
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 2: a good, healthy development of those things, because I think

671
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 2: we that would be part of discipleships, where discipleship is

672
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 2: being conformed to the image of Christ, following him to

673
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 2: become whoever it is that God has made you to be.

674
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,359
Speaker 2: And it's I talk in the book about the kind

675
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 2: of the curriculum of discipleship of how Jesus leads leads

676
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 2: us through that of dying to ourselves, taking up our

677
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:17,359
Speaker 2: cross and and following him and and and ultimately right

678
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 2: that those things aren't in conflict with each other if

679
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 2: you know you're being a leader, if God calls you

680
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 2: to be a leader, while at the same time recognizing

681
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 2: that the first shall be last and the last last

682
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 2: shall be first. And so uh, discipleship mhm, it's taking

683
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 2: this world. It's getting us back to the to the

684
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,720
Speaker 2: trajectory that we should have been on all along as

685
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 2: as as men and women created by God. And so

686
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 2: sin obviously rebellion takes us off track from that. And

687
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 2: you you know, in doing a theology of safety, I

688
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 2: had a lot of people ask me early on do

689
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 2: you want to do like being saved or salvation or

690
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 2: something like that, and I was always very instant, No,

691
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 2: I want to do safety. I want to look at

692
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 2: our life in this physical world, physical safety on that level,

693
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 2: because I think something like discipleship can instruct us on

694
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,720
Speaker 2: those things. And you read the Gospels and obviously Jesus says,

695
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,839
Speaker 2: God who can destroy body and soul, he's the one

696
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 2: that you fear. You don't fear those who can destroy

697
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 2: the body. And so there's eternal life, which is that

698
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 2: ultimate thing that we're going for. But Jesus doesn't neglect

699
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 2: earthly life. He just put it in its proper place.

700
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 2: And so maybe to try and answer your question, I

701
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 2: would say that I think the discipleship is so important

702
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 2: for how we take risks, how we interact with other people,

703
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 2: the physical world around us, the machines and the technology

704
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 2: that we operate and fix and engage with, and all

705
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 2: those sorts of things that there's a place in the

706
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 2: curriculum of discipleship to say here's how to do this appropriately.

707
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:12,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, that's good. I you know, I know Jesus, doesn't.

708
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 1: I think there's a way to read Jesus that is

709
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: way to select days in white. You know, you say, well,

710
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: a meek will inherit the worth, and so everybody should

711
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: just been neiq right. But at the end of the day,

712
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 1: following Jesus was a risky activity. I mean, there's a

713
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 1: reason that disciples end up running away the end. It

714
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: wasn't because they felt safe, and I think that you

715
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: know are but you know, even that running away you

716
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: sort of recognize that almost as an immature necessity of

717
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: risk assessment versus what you see the apostles doing and acts,

718
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: which is just you know, I mean Steven had to

719
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: know he was getting stoned. Uh, you know, I mean

720
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: these guys knew they were at risk of being put

721
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: in jail, and they just took the risks, you know

722
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. Like, there is a you see a

723
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: development in some of that across these books where you

724
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: can really tell the disciples are coming into their own

725
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,359
Speaker 1: and recalculating these risks. It's kind of as they go.

726
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 2: Yeah. I was actually this morning in my class, we

727
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 2: were talking about how to read the Gospels, and I said,

728
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 2: you know, talk about the cross being central, And I said,

729
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 2: you read the Gospels for the first time, and it

730
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 2: looks like Jesus just fails because he says, just take

731
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 2: up your cross and follow me. And then at the

732
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,399
Speaker 2: moment where Jesus literally takes up his cross, they all

733
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 2: stop follow right, they're out. And but but Jesus knew

734
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 2: that strike the shepherd and the sheep will scatter. And

735
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 2: then I said, you read the Gospels and then you

736
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 2: get the end, the cross, the resurrection, and then you

737
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 2: reread it again and you say, Okay, Jesus is calling

738
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,760
Speaker 2: these these disciples to follow him, knowing that they can't

739
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 2: actually follow him. And then yeah, you get to the

740
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 2: Book of Acts where the Holy Spirit gives them power.

741
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 2: And then that's when you see those disciples laying down

742
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 2: their lives as Jesus had done. And and you say, oh,

743
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,479
Speaker 2: we need the cross in order to do that. Something

744
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 2: I thought as you were talking about that was the

745
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 2: way in which those right the apostles, those those young

746
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 2: Jewish disciples of Christ. Uh. You see with the Pharisees,

747
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 2: you see with the Sanhedrin and the establishment, and then

748
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 2: the Roman rulers as well, with Paul, a lot of

749
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 2: pressure for them to just kind of stay in their

750
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 2: lane and do what they're supposed to do. And uh, yeah,

751
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 2: the salvation of the world is at stake. But we'd

752
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 2: really like you to not be too disruptive to what

753
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 2: we've got going on. And that's where I don't want

754
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,879
Speaker 2: to discourage young men. You know. That's where I say

755
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 2: there are counterfeits, right right, There were the zealots. There

756
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 2: were counterfeits to this who wanted to break up societal

757
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,879
Speaker 2: norms or or or push buttons. Uh yeah, with with

758
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:16,320
Speaker 2: with sinful motivations. Uh and again getting back to wisdom

759
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:20,280
Speaker 2: to say no, there are appropriate times where God's calling

760
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 2: people to take risks in his name and in the

761
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:27,959
Speaker 2: ways that's gonna irritate people in ways that's gonna gonna

762
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 2: ruffle some feathers. And uh yeah. Yeah, So I get

763
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,800
Speaker 2: kind of you the concern that you're talking about where

764
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 2: people are maybe being brash or overly abrasive just for

765
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 2: the sake of doing that stuff. But yeah, there are

766
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 2: good high things that Christ is calling these young people

767
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:45,399
Speaker 2: in our day two.

768
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed. I mean, it's an interesting conungrum because you

769
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 1: don't want to do it too safe. To your point,

770
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 1: you know, like the protectivism that we're building into some

771
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: of this is not be good for anybody either. Then,

772
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 1: you know, encouraging someone to be risky in ways that

773
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: don't really reflect Christ is another problem. And so we've

774
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 1: got to sort of figure out how to be people

775
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 1: who take risks and are willing to be unsafe while

776
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: following Jesus.

777
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and uh, something I've thought about with that

778
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 2: is when you're taking a risk, like like what are

779
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 2: you risking? And uh, you know, what if you what

780
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,720
Speaker 2: if you fail? Kind of again, get to that point

781
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 2: and when when you look in the Bible, whether it's

782
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 2: Daniel or Shaddock, me shock in the bed and go

783
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 2: things like that where it's like our God is able

784
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 2: to save us, but even if he's done you, if

785
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 2: you're knocking a bow down and worship, and that's I mean,

786
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 2: I don't know that a little bit of much Easmo

787
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:49,439
Speaker 2: to say that to the nevikanezer Ye know that's not

788
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 2: not in an ata sense, but it's like that's courageous.

789
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 2: That was that that was something and but they looked

790
00:45:56,040 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 2: at it and I don't know, like like again, so

791
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 2: what what I imagine Andrew Tat is like I'm like

792
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 2: what is that guy risking? Like what what is he

793
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:09,879
Speaker 2: putting out there? Maybe maybe an online persona, maybe some fame. Right,

794
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 2: that's that's what he's gambling with, or that's what he's

795
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 2: he's negotiating with, and and kind of the shocking things

796
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,799
Speaker 2: that he's doing, and and yeah, that's clearly just folly. Right,

797
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 2: that's clearly in that category of stuff that's just gonna

798
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:27,720
Speaker 2: it's it's here and then it vanishes quickly away. But

799
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:30,840
Speaker 2: but being faithful to God, not bowing down to an idol,

800
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 2: standing up for uh, for truth, bearing witness to Christ again,

801
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,280
Speaker 2: just just amazing things that we want to encourage courage

802
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:43,879
Speaker 2: people to do, like take a risk for the sake

803
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 2: of loving your neighbor, take a risk for the sake

804
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 2: of the honor of God. And then that's a that's

805
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 2: that's a win win situation right where you can say,

806
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 2: even if my this institution of this organization uh is

807
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 2: gone tomorrow, Uh, it was worth it because the nayar

808
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 2: of Christ is glorified.

809
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a great rate put it. It

810
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,720
Speaker 1: has to be that sort of centered on following Jesus,

811
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 1: honoring God, serving others, and in that is going to

812
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 1: come in inherent risks. I mean, I do think that's

813
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: sort of what we see, especially I mean pending the

814
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 1: Book of Acts a really interesting place to look because

815
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 1: you do see them in danger most of the time.

816
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 1: There's not a lot of time where they're like, oh,

817
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 1: this is great. Well.

818
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,280
Speaker 2: And another interesting connection back in the Book of Daniel

819
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 2: is that with Daniel and Shadow Mushak and Bend to Go,

820
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 2: I think, you know, you could look there and say,

821
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 2: what originally put them kind of on the radar was

822
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,879
Speaker 2: the fact that they wouldn't eat the king's diet, right,

823
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 2: so they made it. They took us. They made a

824
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:57,800
Speaker 2: small stand for obedience to God's law, and that was

825
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 2: kind of the first thing that they did, which was,

826
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,800
Speaker 2: you know, kind of out out of the ordinary. And again,

827
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 2: you think about it, it's very rare that you're in

828
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 2: an organization where every day you're making a decision that's

829
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 2: going to affect the survival. I mean, I hope not right,

830
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 2: that's going to affect our Bible right, And the same thing.

831
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 2: In our lives, we navigate physical dangers and sometimes we

832
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 2: have close calls with death. I almost hit a deer

833
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 2: a couple of nights ago, I wasn't going fast enough

834
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 2: for me or the deer to die. But occasionally, like

835
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:31,479
Speaker 2: things like that happened. But most of the time you're

836
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 2: making decisions within your organizations or in your church or

837
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 2: the ministry, with your family, whatever it is, that are

838
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 2: again kind of just leading you on the path of

839
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 2: life or leading you a little bit on the path

840
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:47,359
Speaker 2: of death. And so often that's how that's how Satan works, Right,

841
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 2: is the little compromises more than the big ones.

842
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 1: Well, I'm wondering maybe last question here and then we'll

843
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 1: sure close this out. But you know, you talk about

844
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 1: putting safety in its plate, and I guess I'm wondering

845
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 1: where you think that is. We people with maybe a

846
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:13,359
Speaker 1: little practical understowing them how to think about safety and Christian.

847
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, putting safety in its place. My temperament, Uh what

848
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:22,840
Speaker 2: was you know when I was younger, it was was

849
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 2: to be cynical of uh kind of safety procedures like this,

850
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 2: We're just kind of doing this to please someone or

851
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 2: something like that. And with age, I've come to say, no, safety,

852
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 2: physical safety is a good thing. You look at how

853
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 2: much God cares about that, and so on that level,

854
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 2: we want to have a high view of safety the

855
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 2: value of human life. Uh, we want to do what

856
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 2: we can to relieve the suffering of other people. That's

857
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 2: so much of Christ's ministry as he heals people, He

858
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 2: comes to people or suffering and brings them, brings them

859
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 2: out of it. And but in putting safety in its place. Bartimaeus, right,

860
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 2: what a great little story where we know what Jesus

861
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 2: says to his disciples. He says, follow me, take up

862
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 2: your cross. Right, He's pointing them towards death. And so

863
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 2: he finds blind Bartimaeus and that it's a short little snippet,

864
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 2: short little scene in the Gospels, and it just says

865
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:23,239
Speaker 2: that he healed Bartimaeus, and that Bartimaeus got up and

866
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 2: followed him on his way. And that's putting safety in

867
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 2: its place. That's saying when Christ protects me, when he,

868
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,240
Speaker 2: you know, just gives me the means to be safe,

869
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,319
Speaker 2: that's a gift from him. But then I instantly turn

870
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:42,799
Speaker 2: around and follow him and be willing to lay down

871
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 2: my life for his sake and for the sake of others.

872
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 2: And I think, if you can have that in your mind,

873
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,399
Speaker 2: he just makes all those those thousand little decisions on

874
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 2: what do I let the kids do where do I

875
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 2: let the teenagers? How far can they drive? And all

876
00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 2: visual things that we're constantly trying to navigate. You can

877
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 2: build an algorithm, you can have a spreadsheet, You can

878
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 2: call an insurance company and ask them what they'd like

879
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:10,400
Speaker 2: you to do, and uh right, and and that just

880
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 2: oftentimes we were pursuing safety, but the result is it

881
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,359
Speaker 2: just becomes a burden to us. And so I think

882
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 2: I think we put safety in its place, receive it

883
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 2: as a good thing. But if if the pursuit of

884
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 2: safety is sucking the life out of you, then it's

885
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 2: not doing what it's intended to do. There's something wrong there,

886
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 2: and we want to pursue life and receive the safety

887
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 2: that God gives along the way with thankfulness.

888
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 1: Really helpful, jan Like I said, I began, I really

889
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 1: sure you tackle this sedge. I think it's a it's

890
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 1: one of those, like I said, I was really interested

891
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,320
Speaker 1: in it and just went a different way. But I

892
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: was so happy to find your book and get to

893
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:56,359
Speaker 1: read it and interact with it, so really appreciate it.

894
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:00,359
Speaker 1: And to everybody out there, I just recommend The Suit

895
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 1: of Safety by Jeremy Langren. I'll put the link to

896
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: the book there. It is right there. If you're watching

897
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 1: on video, you got you got a little flash of it.

898
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 1: But I would just encourage you. I got the link

899
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 1: in the description. This is an ivspy book, So if

900
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 1: you ordered off IVPS website, you get a twenty percent off,

901
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 1: just to put in the discount codes that they provide,

902
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 1: and just really encourage you to take a look at this.

903
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 1: Safety is such a big issue nowadays in our world,

904
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: and you know we're seeing this over and over and again.

905
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 1: So I think this is really timely work and would

906
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 1: just encourage.

907
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:30,879
Speaker 2: You to pick it up.

908
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:33,920
Speaker 1: So again, Jeremy, thanks for being here. Really appreciated you

909
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:34,839
Speaker 1: interacting on this.

910
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:37,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much. James. I appreciate your questions.

911
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 1: Know swe all right, Hey, everybody, we'll catch you on

912
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 1: the next episode of Thinking Christian Take care. I just

913
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:46,239
Speaker 1: want to take a second to thank the team at

914
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,760
Speaker 1: Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking

915
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:51,879
Speaker 1: Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll

916
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 1: find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network.

917
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:58,479
Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.