WEBVTT - The Miracles Science Can't Explain (Dr. Marc Siegel) 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:07.640 Life Audio. I think the valuing of a human life 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:11.160 and the preciousness of the soul is intertwined with the 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:14.680 physical skills we have, and the more those skills advance 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:17.840 in modern day, the more that physicians have the hands 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:18.239 of God. 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:19.640 And that's what my book is about. 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:24.560 I'm really curious how other doctors and or academics view you. 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:28.120 What I'm bringing to this that isn't really been talked 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:33.120 about before is that I'm creating a theory that's really 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:36.080 going to be quite popular, which is that instead of 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:38.240 dismissing people, let's honor them. 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:39.839 And doctors want to do that. 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.800 From the collapse of the NFL player Tomorrow Hamlin to 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:46.559 the son of Fox News host Brett Baer to an 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:49.400 eighth grader from Missouri who fell through the ice and 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:53.239 was underwater for ten minutes and flatlined for more than 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:56.920 fifty our guest today claims there are miracles all around 0:00:57.000 --> 0:01:01.840 us today. Doctor Mark Siegel is new Senior Medical Analyst 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:04.600 as well as a clinical professor of medicine and a 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:08.960 practicing internist at NYU. Doctor Siegel, thanks for writing a 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:11.000 fascinating book and thanks for joining me on the show. 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:13.160 Great to be on with you sean. 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:17.200 Of course, my intro question is why would a practicing 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:22.040 medical doctor, professor, and TV analyst who's got a million 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:25.279 things going on not only write a book but write 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:25.840 this book. 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:28.560 Well, I write books all the time, and I'm a writer. 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:32.360 I trained in writing and creative writing and journalism before 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:35.800 I ever became a physician. That helps because when you 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:38.920 become a physician, a lot of physicians think, oh, I 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:41.360 can do anything when you can't. But I believe you 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:43.480 can do two things well in life. And I started 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:46.959 my life as a writer and then became a physician. 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:51.240 And I mean, I believe that being able to communicate 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:52.640 is important to a physician. 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:55.400 But medicine is a different language. 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:58.680 It's its own language, and not everyone can translate it 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:03.400 into layman's terms struggle to do that. I think it's 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:05.520 more important that we get the medicine right than that 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:08.560 we communicate, but both are important. I think it's not 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:14.520 even a question about the idea of combining faith with medicine, 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:18.400 because it shouldn't even be a question because when you 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:23.520 begin to study medicine at a very young age, I 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:26.720 mean when you're young and you're in training, one of 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:30.640 the first things that you discover is the incredible qualities 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:32.840 in the human body, in the mind and the body, 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:36.800 the spirit, the preciousness of each life. We learn it 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:40.440 in medical school. So how does the physician go from 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:45.200 there where it's imbued in their early training to start 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:50.720 dismissing people like in Canada where medical assistance in dying 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:53.160 is leading to homeless people being put to death. That's 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:57.040 extreme example, sure, But I think the valuing of a 0:02:57.120 --> 0:03:02.200 human life and the preciousness of the soul is intertwined 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:05.280 with the physical skills we have, and the more those 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:09.400 skills advance in modern day, the more that physicians have 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:11.720 the hands of God. And that's what my book is about. 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:14.079 That's one of the things my book is about. Another 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:17.760 thing that it's about is the idea that miracles don't 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:22.600 occur all at once most of the time. It's not 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:25.079 that they don't ever occur that way. I think that 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:28.880 the miracles that the Catholic Church's church honors are real 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:32.240 and they have very strict criteria, and I believe it 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:35.800 does happen that direct divine intervention leads to miracle cures 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:38.800 that science can't explain. But there are other miracles that 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:44.560 are an accumulation of what are seemingly coincidences where positive 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:49.040 outcomes occur where negative outcomes were far more likely, and 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:52.920 then there's an accumulation of positive outcomes that occur that 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:54.080 add up to the miracle. 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:57.320 The publisher of this book kept saying. 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:00.280 To me, identify the miracle in each chapter here, and 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:02.120 we had a very fun back and forth on that, 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:05.560 because I feel that each chapter is an accumulation of 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:07.000 multiple miracles. 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:10.240 M Well, it definitely reads that way, and it's interesting. 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:11.840 We're going to get to how you kind of define 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:15.440 what you mean specifically by a miracle. But I'm really 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:19.640 curious how your training in internal medicine shapes the way 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.960 you think about assessing miracles. And in part what I'm 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:26.160 asking is help those of us who are not medical 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:30.640 doctors as best you can get inside your mind how 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:34.760 you think about and approach this given your training in medicine. 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:37.320 Well, I don't think it's I don't think that's what 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:40.480 it is. I think I don't. I think that doctors 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:44.120 participate in miracles, and whether they believe or not is 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:48.080 almost beside the point. In my book, there's multiple doctors 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:52.880 who are disbelievers or doubters, and then by virtue of 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:57.839 what they participate in, they become true believers. Some do, 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:01.200 some don't. It almost doesn't matter. As long as you 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:05.600 show the flexibility and honoring the patient and healing, and 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:09.359 you're a healer, you are participating in miracles. God is present, 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:12.640 God fills in the gaps. I mean, you could argue 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:16.279 that all day long, but it's just a fruitless argument 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:20.440 because it doesn't change the reality. As long as the 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:23.440 physician is open to the idea that there's a greater 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:27.400 reality than that they themselves control, the better the physician 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:30.800 they're going to be. What really influenced me early in 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:33.680 my training was that when I was an intern, I 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:35.839 was assigned to a case in the ICU of a 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:39.360 guy who was in a vegetative state and in a coma, 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:43.480 and the family was at the bedside, praying all day long, 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:46.599 every day, and they kept saying to me, Look his 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:49.440 eyelids are fluttering. Look his heart rate is going up 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:52.279 a little, Look his blood pressure is going up. 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:53.760 It imbued on me. 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:59.000 The frustrations of them, not of this family, not accepting 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:02.960 what seemed to be the reality and not giving up. 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:05.080 And I thought it was going to form a very 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:10.160 negative view in my approach to healthcare. I thought this 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:14.159 is going to be the future, me consoling families to 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:18.599 accept a limited reality. Instead, after three months, the guy 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:21.799 woke up, he got out of bed, and he went back. 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:23.240 To work, and they were right. 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:26.120 They were right, and we were wrong, and we were 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:29.800 jaundiced and we were sarcastic, and we were educated by 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:33.960 this case, and it changed how I viewed medicine super interesting. 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:35.640 Some of that comes through in the book, and a 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:38.240 lot of the stories give us a sense of what 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:42.440 you mean by miracle. Because you talk about medical miracles, 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:45.440 you talk about some that seemed to take place through 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:49.200 the means and practice of a doctor. You talk about 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:52.120 some that seemed to just result that there's this healing 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:55.440 process of somebody who just believes in God and has hope. 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:58.400 But then there's other times where you talk about these clear, 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:04.720 almost unmista'stakably supernatural interventions, which is probably more typically what 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:07.640 we mean by miracle. So when you say the miracles 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:10.200 amongst us, tell us what you mean by that. 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:14.120 You know early on in the process, I got the 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:17.880 privilege in honor of interviewing Cardinal Dolan and Cardinal Dolan 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:23.040 surprised me, and I think he unintentionally broadened the motif 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:25.040 of this book because I asked him what he thought 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:28.480 a miracle was, and he said, there is the Catholic 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:31.880 Church definition, but there's also what I'm calling. He said, 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:35.280 soft miracles. I said, what is a soft miracle? He says, 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:39.320 a soft miracle is an accumulation of great faith and 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:45.120 great science, and they're intertwined and they established themselves over time. 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:50.600 He gave as an example someone in his family where 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:54.560 they asked someone close to him, was she healed? Did 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:58.600 her cancer go away? Because of divine intervention? And the 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:01.720 response was that and doctor Berganelli. 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:05.560 So, in other words, it's not wont a or b. 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:08.520 And it's so important that this book is out because 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:11.960 we went down a rabbit hole with Spinoza in the 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:15.160 sixteen hundreds where he said God is only found in nature. 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:17.440 He didn't say there was no God. He said God 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:20.720 is only found in nature. And to be sure, nature 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:23.880 is a direct manifestation of God and God's beauty and 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:28.160 God's grace. But there's also a personal God, as in 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:31.920 my book. Pope John Paul made that point to Robert Redfield, 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:35.280 the former CDC director when he was when they were 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:37.960 meeting to discuss the ages epidemic. Right at the heart 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:44.240 of it, he said, the Pontiff said, there's a personal 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:46.679 God that we all have to recognize, and we can 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:50.760 channel our prayer towards that personal God, which makes prayer 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:54.280 the greatest tool we have for healing those are That's 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:57.120 one and two. One, there's a personal God accepted to 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:00.800 prayer as a very powerful tool, the most powerful tool. 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:05.040 And the third is there's a redemptive value in human suffering. Well, 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:07.640 Redfield rejected that. As a physician, he didn't liked that. 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:09.640 He said, I don't agree with you, he said to 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:13.480 the Pope, but he said that over his career he's 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:17.920 come to see that that that's correct, that there is 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:22.280 a redemptive value in human suffering. I think in the 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:26.000 Jewish faith that has to do with something very basic 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:28.960 in the Old Testament, in the Talmud that basically says 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:32.680 we're being tested by God. Every day, we're being tested 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:34.960 by God, and do we pass the test do we not? 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:38.520 And it helps define who we are as people and 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:42.160 whether we're deemed worthy in the Almighty's eyes. 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:47.960 I'm a Christian theology professor. More specifically apologetics and evangelism. 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:50.720 So most of the people I interview here will be 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:54.160 Christians and Evangelicals, but I talk with a lot of 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:56.679 people of different faiths. Just had a friendly debate with 0:09:56.800 --> 0:10:00.920 an Orthodox to youw about the expectation the Messiah and 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:04.160 the identity of Jesus. Really fun. In this book, you 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:08.400 talk about your Jewish faith some I'd be really curious 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:11.240 what you mean by that, because obviously there's concerted Jews, 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:14.880 there's Orthodox Jews, and how that shapes the way you 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:16.280 approach miracles. 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:22.000 You know, I'm a lavy, and the lavy is someone 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:26.360 that's a servant of the kohene. And interestingly enough, Aaron, 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:31.280 Moses's brother was the first lavy, and what he did 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:34.920 was he performed miracles all day long with his staff, 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:36.920 and those were minor miracles. 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:39.040 And I think that's another thing that led to this. 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:42.320 So that's another thing that informed my faith, is that 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:45.520 I see myself as someone who performs service for others. 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:48.080 That's what I do as a physician, that's what I 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:49.840 try to do as a person. I think it's a 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:55.800 deep part of my identity, my faith. So I don't distinguish, 0:10:55.640 --> 0:11:00.800 I don't distinguish, you know, so much between being Jewish 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:05.720 between being Christian. I think it's a matter of believing 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:11.880 in God, and I don't really think of it as 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:14.240 a separate issue. I think of it in terms of faith. 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.120 And I've experienced miracles in my own life that have 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:19.360 led me to that, Like when my first son was 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:23.040 born and I was going through a period of confusion, 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:24.920 like what's my role? What am I going to do? 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:27.800 And how do I care for my son? And I 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:30.280 was walking down the street and I saw a man 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:33.319 praying and he handed me his prayer book and he said, 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:36.640 take this and pray for the health of your newborn son. 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:38.160 And I said, how do you know I have a son? 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:40.679 I didn't say anything. So he was an angel from 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:44.360 the Lord. I mean there as I left Showan, I 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:45.640 look back over my shoulder. 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:48.920 Is he really there? A visitation? 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:52.920 He was there, But that changed my life and I pray. 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:55.920 But I don't judge people to say, oh, this is 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.080 their faith, this is my faith. I think there's a 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:02.560 community there. My friendship with Cardinal Doan is a great 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:07.280 example of that, or Jolo'stein. I'm friends with Jolostein Pastor 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:11.360 Ostein Pastor Sam Rodriguez, a dear close friend of mine, 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:14.160 inspired a lot of the parts of this book. He 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:16.920 in fact did a movie on Breakthrough. You were talking 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:22.840 about Breakthrough, and the breakthrough moment actually is when John Smith, 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:28.360 after everything he experiences, communes with Pastor Sam and then 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:32.000 he decides that what he's been through is so special 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:36.040 and so unusual. It brings him faith that he then 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:37.920 wants to show to the rest of the world. It's 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:40.960 the same thing that's happened to Christopher Smith. He's not 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:43.120 in my book, but he'll be in the next one, 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:49.280 who I reported on recently on TV. Smith got shot 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:52.040 in the head and a woman he was going on 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:54.240 a first date with got shot in the head as 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:58.599 well as she died. He survived and got a visitation 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:02.559 from his father, who died when he was eight years old, 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:06.160 and the vision said to him, the way you know 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:10.439 this is me, that I'm your father is that when 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:13.360 I was lying in my coffin, my best friend Brett, 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:17.720 put two marijuana cigarettes in my left pocket. And there's 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:19.720 only two people in the world that know about that, 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:23.440 Brett and your mother. And he said, you're gonna live. 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:27.079 You're gonna survive. This ordeal, and you're gonna wake up 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:30.120 and you're gonna go on to have a fairly normal life. 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:33.840 Chris Smith woke up two months later in the ICU, 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:38.040 remember that visitation, told his mother and she broke into tears, 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:41.040 talked to Brett. Only two people that knew it was 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:47.199 absolutely true. And then Smith went on cognitively and recovered. 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:50.400 He's got stem cell injections to get strengths back in 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:54.000 his left side, and he's going around spreading the word. 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:57.080 And I think that that's another message in my book, 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:01.160 which is spreading the word. Not read the stories and 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:04.200 see if you believe, See if you believe after you 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:06.840 read the stories, compared to win before you read them. 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:09.800 Where your book is primarily full of stories. And I 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:12.120 was reading it this morning to my wife as she 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:14.360 was running out the door to teach math today. I said, 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:16.920 oh man, there's some stories here over dinner tonight I 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:19.600 want to share with you and talk about and process. 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:22.600 So that jumped out to me really quick. It's full stories. 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:26.160 Part of me has a million theological questions for you 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:28.200 about your faith and how you practice it and what 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:31.640 that means. That is a separate conversation. Maybe we'll come 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:33.200 back to that. But I've also I've done a lot 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:36.720 of shows on visions and near death experiences, and I'm 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:40.800 convinced they're verritical. But let's jump to some of the 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:43.840 stories in the book. I read a lot of different 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:46.120 news sources. I read the New York Times every morning, 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:51.480 but one host I really enjoy is Brett Baer and 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:55.200 Him and His Son is the first story in your book, 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:58.920 which just jumped out to me. So share that story 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:00.520 as much as you can, and tell tell else why 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:03.240 you put that in the realm of a modern day miracle. 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:07.040 Because of the accumulation of events. 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:10.920 It's like everybody listening to this podcast or watching it 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:18.480 right now will know about the coincidence that occur when 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:20.960 you're thinking of someone in the phone rings right after that. 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:24.000 How did that happen? What is telepathy? Where's that coming from? 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:28.160 It's a direct proof of a larger spiritual reality. So 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:36.400 are dreams. Brett bare their son Paul, their first son Amy. 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:39.960 They meet with a series of coincidences. But then their 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:42.520 first son is born and he's not thriving, and he's 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:45.600 very pale. And the first miracle in that chapter is 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:48.480 that a doctor who's an expert at this happens to 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:51.760 be passing the hospital and he's not even on call, 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:55.040 and he says, you know, I think I'm going to 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:56.360 go in, and he. 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:58.200 Doesn't know why. Why does he go in? 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:03.720 Goes in, finds out about Paul, and says, I'm going 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:05.600 to look into this, even though he's not working. 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:07.359 He does an echo cardiogram. 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:09.960 He finds the problem in his heart, which is multiple 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:17.480 abnormalities cardiac congenital abnormalities, and over the next several months 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:21.600 they work on repairing them, and it's not perfect because 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:25.440 of the size, being so small of the heart. Brett 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:28.800 and Amy are a team. Amy full of love, Brett 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:31.840 full of having to have his questions answered. They meet 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:34.680 another woman there who has a child the same age 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:38.160 as Paul, in similar straits, and they root for each 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:42.440 other and they pray for each other. And Brett's prayer 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:44.520 is in my book. I have a prayer section in 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:49.880 my book of famous prayers written for the book by 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:52.680 great spiritual leaders. If I had known you, Sean, I 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:55.160 would have asked you for a prayer when I wrote 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:57.560 the book. But Brett's prayer is in there, and he says, 0:16:57.600 --> 0:16:59.640 we pray for one more day, we pray for one 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:02.320 more day. That's a lot in the theme of this book. 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:04.360 And through the. 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:09.000 Years they go through different oh and tragically the woman 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:12.560 who is rooting with them, her daughter dies and they 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:15.840 feel great suffering over the loss, but she stays with 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:18.119 them as a dear friend over the years as they 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:22.320 become more and more involved in National Children's Hospital. The 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:28.320 chapter focuses on the fifth heart surgery where Paul has 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:30.440 a cold and he goes in to see his new 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:34.280 internest and he says, this is just a cold. But 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:37.159 then he says, but you know, same as the doctor 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:41.160 passing the hospital. You know, just to be sure, I'm 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:43.560 going to do a chest X ray. If you ask 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:47.480 that doctor as part of a board question, Sean, should 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:50.040 you do a chest X ray? The answer is no, 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:53.800 you don't. You wouldn't check that box. But God checks 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:57.679 the right box, right, so that intuition, maybe I should 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:00.639 do a chest X ray. And he does it and 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:07.480 it shows a slight widening of the heart and he said, 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:11.200 you know, this is normal for a kid, for a 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:15.520 guy in his condition, but just to be sure, I'm 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:19.040 going to show this to his cardiologist shows it to 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:22.720 his cardiologists who says, you know, I could pass this, 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:26.439 but just to be sure, I'm going to do an 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:29.240 echo cardiogram. He does an echo cardiogram and he finds 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:34.520 an aneurysm that's about to burst. They have surgery schedule 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:37.119 for the next day. Paul goes out and plays golf 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:44.120 with Brett. Paul wins, and then he gets his life 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:47.680 is saved with another successful operation. And over the years, 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:52.600 Amy and Brett, who are fantastic parents, are relinquishing more 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:56.360 control of the situation to their son, which is correct. 0:18:57.240 --> 0:18:59.680 So he's a very courageous. 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:04.760 Young man with a lot of spiritual transcendence, because if 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:09.600 our souls are tested enough, we mature. The miracle in 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:13.920 that chapter is not one miracle. It's an accumulation of well, 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:19.800 maybe I shouldn't, but just to be sure is the miracle. 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:23.359 That distinction is helpful. I want to make sure our 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:25.560 audience doesn't miss that. You have some examples in your 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:32.280 book of prayers that are done and just instantaneous, supernatural 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:37.000 events take place to save somebody's life. That because the 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:41.719 timing and the specificity just can't be explained away scientifically alone. 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:44.919 Then you talk about miracle as a certain number of 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:50.119 seeming coincidences that collectively lead towards something positive that in 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:54.679 themselves can't be explained away when taken collectively. I'll let 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:57.000 folks think about that and analyze that. But is that 0:19:57.000 --> 0:19:58.480 a fair distinction to you? 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:00.879 Yeah, it's perfect, except that one thing needs to be 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:03.920 added here is get Brett and Amy prayed and prayed 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:07.240 and prayed every single day. And I believe that that's 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:09.320 part of it too. That's part of it too. And 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:12.760 I don't want science analyzing that. How ridiculous that we 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:16.840 would use the tool of science to analyze whether prayer 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:17.639 is working or not. 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:20.119 Wait, that's the opposite of what we should do. You 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:20.960 should use the. 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:24.119 Tool of prayer to analyze whether the science is working. 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:29.800 That quote you just said might go viral. I love 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:32.880 that that'll get some people thinking. So you mentioned within 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:36.080 the story before we move to the NFL player Tamar Hamlin, 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:38.320 and then a couple other counts that I think are 0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:43.280 just stunning examples of sudden, supernatural kind of one time 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:49.720 intervention miracles. You mentioned somebody in the story with Brett 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:53.600 whose child was not healed and may have been praying 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.680 as well. Before we get to some of the other miracles. 0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:58.800 What would you say as a person of faith, as 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:01.240 a scientist, as somebody. He says, I prayed, and he 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:05.760 say there's miracles amongst us, but I'm not experiencing one. 0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:07.760 There's two answers to that. 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:11.600 One is that God chooses the miracles he wants to give. 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:14.879 That came from Dolan also and the other people in 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:17.399 the book. God gives us the miracles he wants to 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:23.199 give us, not the ones we pray for. And the 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:27.280 second part of that is I'll give let me stick 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:27.960 on the first part. 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:28.520 Sure. 0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:31.240 The two examples from the Old Testament on that I 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:34.080 use in the book. One is Hannah is praying for 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:39.960 a son, and she's not given a son till she's very, 0:21:40.040 --> 0:21:44.000 very old. Her sister has seven children, I believe multiple children, 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:47.879 and Hannah finally gets the son, and the son she 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:51.720 calls the son schmul or Samuel mean, God hurts my prayer. 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:56.200 But the lesson there is that God doesn't grant her 0:21:56.240 --> 0:21:59.919 wish because she wishes for it. He grants the child 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:02.320 because he knows that Samuel is going to go on 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:04.560 to become a great prophet and lead a nation and 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:07.800 lead to King David. So that's the reason he grants 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:11.800 the prayer. And another striking example from the Old Testament 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:17.080 is Hezekiah, who's a king, and Hezekiah is suffering from 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:19.760 a sore that looks like it's going to kill him, 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:23.439 and he goes to Isaiah and Isaiah says, you're going 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:28.360 to die from that sore and Isaiah and Hezekiah doesn't 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:33.439 really want to accept that prophecy from Isaiah because Isaiah 0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:35.359 is not God, he's a prophet. He doesn't want to 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:38.960 accept that prophecy, so he goes to God, and in 0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:43.840 going directly to God, Hezekiah learns that what's really at 0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:47.560 stake here is that Hezekiah has a father who is 0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:51.520 a bad king. Hezekiah was a great king. Hezekiah's son 0:22:51.680 --> 0:22:56.240 is destined to be a bad king. And God says, 0:22:56.840 --> 0:22:59.320 I will save you, but you have to follow your faith. 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:05.200 So Hezekiah marries Isaiah's daughter and has a child who's 0:23:05.200 --> 0:23:08.600 a bad king, and his sores are healed and he 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:12.919 lives on God saves him. That's a really great lesson 0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:15.640 of God giving the miracles that he wants us to have, 0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:20.600 not the ones we're asking for, because because what Isaiah, 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:22.840