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Speaker 1: Life Audio. I think the valuing of a human life

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Speaker 1: and the preciousness of the soul is intertwined with the

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Speaker 1: physical skills we have, and the more those skills advance

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Speaker 1: in modern day, the more that physicians have the hands

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Speaker 1: of God.

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Speaker 2: And that's what my book is about.

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Speaker 3: I'm really curious how other doctors and or academics view you.

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Speaker 1: What I'm bringing to this that isn't really been talked

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Speaker 1: about before is that I'm creating a theory that's really

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Speaker 1: going to be quite popular, which is that instead of

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Speaker 1: dismissing people, let's honor them.

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Speaker 2: And doctors want to do that.

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Speaker 3: From the collapse of the NFL player Tomorrow Hamlin to

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Speaker 3: the son of Fox News host Brett Baer to an

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Speaker 3: eighth grader from Missouri who fell through the ice and

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Speaker 3: was underwater for ten minutes and flatlined for more than

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Speaker 3: fifty our guest today claims there are miracles all around

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Speaker 3: us today. Doctor Mark Siegel is new Senior Medical Analyst

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Speaker 3: as well as a clinical professor of medicine and a

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Speaker 3: practicing internist at NYU. Doctor Siegel, thanks for writing a

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Speaker 3: fascinating book and thanks for joining me on the show.

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Speaker 2: Great to be on with you sean.

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Speaker 3: Of course, my intro question is why would a practicing

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Speaker 3: medical doctor, professor, and TV analyst who's got a million

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Speaker 3: things going on not only write a book but write

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Speaker 3: this book.

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Speaker 1: Well, I write books all the time, and I'm a writer.

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Speaker 1: I trained in writing and creative writing and journalism before

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Speaker 1: I ever became a physician. That helps because when you

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Speaker 1: become a physician, a lot of physicians think, oh, I

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Speaker 1: can do anything when you can't. But I believe you

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Speaker 1: can do two things well in life. And I started

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Speaker 1: my life as a writer and then became a physician.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, I believe that being able to communicate

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Speaker 1: is important to a physician.

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Speaker 2: But medicine is a different language.

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Speaker 1: It's its own language, and not everyone can translate it

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Speaker 1: into layman's terms struggle to do that. I think it's

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Speaker 1: more important that we get the medicine right than that

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Speaker 1: we communicate, but both are important. I think it's not

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Speaker 1: even a question about the idea of combining faith with medicine,

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Speaker 1: because it shouldn't even be a question because when you

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Speaker 1: begin to study medicine at a very young age, I

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Speaker 1: mean when you're young and you're in training, one of

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Speaker 1: the first things that you discover is the incredible qualities

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Speaker 1: in the human body, in the mind and the body,

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Speaker 1: the spirit, the preciousness of each life. We learn it

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Speaker 1: in medical school. So how does the physician go from

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Speaker 1: there where it's imbued in their early training to start

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Speaker 1: dismissing people like in Canada where medical assistance in dying

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Speaker 1: is leading to homeless people being put to death. That's

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Speaker 1: extreme example, sure, But I think the valuing of a

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Speaker 1: human life and the preciousness of the soul is intertwined

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Speaker 1: with the physical skills we have, and the more those

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Speaker 1: skills advance in modern day, the more that physicians have

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Speaker 1: the hands of God. And that's what my book is about.

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Speaker 1: That's one of the things my book is about. Another

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Speaker 1: thing that it's about is the idea that miracles don't

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Speaker 1: occur all at once most of the time. It's not

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Speaker 1: that they don't ever occur that way. I think that

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Speaker 1: the miracles that the Catholic Church's church honors are real

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Speaker 1: and they have very strict criteria, and I believe it

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Speaker 1: does happen that direct divine intervention leads to miracle cures

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Speaker 1: that science can't explain. But there are other miracles that

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Speaker 1: are an accumulation of what are seemingly coincidences where positive

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Speaker 1: outcomes occur where negative outcomes were far more likely, and

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Speaker 1: then there's an accumulation of positive outcomes that occur that

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Speaker 1: add up to the miracle.

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Speaker 2: The publisher of this book kept saying.

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Speaker 1: To me, identify the miracle in each chapter here, and

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Speaker 1: we had a very fun back and forth on that,

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Speaker 1: because I feel that each chapter is an accumulation of

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Speaker 1: multiple miracles.

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Speaker 3: M Well, it definitely reads that way, and it's interesting.

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Speaker 3: We're going to get to how you kind of define

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Speaker 3: what you mean specifically by a miracle. But I'm really

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Speaker 3: curious how your training in internal medicine shapes the way

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Speaker 3: you think about assessing miracles. And in part what I'm

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Speaker 3: asking is help those of us who are not medical

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Speaker 3: doctors as best you can get inside your mind how

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Speaker 3: you think about and approach this given your training in medicine.

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't think it's I don't think that's what

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Speaker 1: it is. I think I don't. I think that doctors

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Speaker 1: participate in miracles, and whether they believe or not is

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Speaker 1: almost beside the point. In my book, there's multiple doctors

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Speaker 1: who are disbelievers or doubters, and then by virtue of

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Speaker 1: what they participate in, they become true believers. Some do,

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Speaker 1: some don't. It almost doesn't matter. As long as you

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Speaker 1: show the flexibility and honoring the patient and healing, and

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Speaker 1: you're a healer, you are participating in miracles. God is present,

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Speaker 1: God fills in the gaps. I mean, you could argue

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Speaker 1: that all day long, but it's just a fruitless argument

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Speaker 1: because it doesn't change the reality. As long as the

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Speaker 1: physician is open to the idea that there's a greater

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Speaker 1: reality than that they themselves control, the better the physician

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Speaker 1: they're going to be. What really influenced me early in

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Speaker 1: my training was that when I was an intern, I

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Speaker 1: was assigned to a case in the ICU of a

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Speaker 1: guy who was in a vegetative state and in a coma,

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Speaker 1: and the family was at the bedside, praying all day long,

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Speaker 1: every day, and they kept saying to me, Look his

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Speaker 1: eyelids are fluttering. Look his heart rate is going up

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Speaker 1: a little, Look his blood pressure is going up.

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Speaker 2: It imbued on me.

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Speaker 1: The frustrations of them, not of this family, not accepting

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Speaker 1: what seemed to be the reality and not giving up.

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Speaker 1: And I thought it was going to form a very

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Speaker 1: negative view in my approach to healthcare. I thought this

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Speaker 1: is going to be the future, me consoling families to

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Speaker 1: accept a limited reality. Instead, after three months, the guy

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Speaker 1: woke up, he got out of bed, and he went back.

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Speaker 2: To work, and they were right.

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Speaker 1: They were right, and we were wrong, and we were

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Speaker 1: jaundiced and we were sarcastic, and we were educated by

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Speaker 1: this case, and it changed how I viewed medicine super interesting.

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Speaker 3: Some of that comes through in the book, and a

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Speaker 3: lot of the stories give us a sense of what

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Speaker 3: you mean by miracle. Because you talk about medical miracles,

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Speaker 3: you talk about some that seemed to take place through

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Speaker 3: the means and practice of a doctor. You talk about

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Speaker 3: some that seemed to just result that there's this healing

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Speaker 3: process of somebody who just believes in God and has hope.

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Speaker 3: But then there's other times where you talk about these clear,

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Speaker 3: almost unmista'stakably supernatural interventions, which is probably more typically what

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Speaker 3: we mean by miracle. So when you say the miracles

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Speaker 3: amongst us, tell us what you mean by that.

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Speaker 1: You know early on in the process, I got the

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Speaker 1: privilege in honor of interviewing Cardinal Dolan and Cardinal Dolan

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Speaker 1: surprised me, and I think he unintentionally broadened the motif

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Speaker 1: of this book because I asked him what he thought

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Speaker 1: a miracle was, and he said, there is the Catholic

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Speaker 1: Church definition, but there's also what I'm calling. He said,

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Speaker 1: soft miracles. I said, what is a soft miracle? He says,

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Speaker 1: a soft miracle is an accumulation of great faith and

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Speaker 1: great science, and they're intertwined and they established themselves over time.

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Speaker 1: He gave as an example someone in his family where

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Speaker 1: they asked someone close to him, was she healed? Did

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Speaker 1: her cancer go away? Because of divine intervention? And the

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Speaker 1: response was that and doctor Berganelli.

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Speaker 2: So, in other words, it's not wont a or b.

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Speaker 1: And it's so important that this book is out because

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Speaker 1: we went down a rabbit hole with Spinoza in the

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Speaker 1: sixteen hundreds where he said God is only found in nature.

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Speaker 1: He didn't say there was no God. He said God

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Speaker 1: is only found in nature. And to be sure, nature

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Speaker 1: is a direct manifestation of God and God's beauty and

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Speaker 1: God's grace. But there's also a personal God, as in

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Speaker 1: my book. Pope John Paul made that point to Robert Redfield,

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Speaker 1: the former CDC director when he was when they were

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Speaker 1: meeting to discuss the ages epidemic. Right at the heart

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Speaker 1: of it, he said, the Pontiff said, there's a personal

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Speaker 1: God that we all have to recognize, and we can

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Speaker 1: channel our prayer towards that personal God, which makes prayer

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Speaker 1: the greatest tool we have for healing those are That's

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Speaker 1: one and two. One, there's a personal God accepted to

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Speaker 1: prayer as a very powerful tool, the most powerful tool.

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Speaker 1: And the third is there's a redemptive value in human suffering. Well,

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Speaker 1: Redfield rejected that. As a physician, he didn't liked that.

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Speaker 1: He said, I don't agree with you, he said to

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Speaker 1: the Pope, but he said that over his career he's

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Speaker 1: come to see that that that's correct, that there is

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Speaker 1: a redemptive value in human suffering. I think in the

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Speaker 1: Jewish faith that has to do with something very basic

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Speaker 1: in the Old Testament, in the Talmud that basically says

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Speaker 1: we're being tested by God. Every day, we're being tested

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Speaker 1: by God, and do we pass the test do we not?

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Speaker 1: And it helps define who we are as people and

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Speaker 1: whether we're deemed worthy in the Almighty's eyes.

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Speaker 3: I'm a Christian theology professor. More specifically apologetics and evangelism.

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Speaker 3: So most of the people I interview here will be

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Speaker 3: Christians and Evangelicals, but I talk with a lot of

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Speaker 3: people of different faiths. Just had a friendly debate with

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Speaker 3: an Orthodox to youw about the expectation the Messiah and

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Speaker 3: the identity of Jesus. Really fun. In this book, you

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Speaker 3: talk about your Jewish faith some I'd be really curious

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Speaker 3: what you mean by that, because obviously there's concerted Jews,

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Speaker 3: there's Orthodox Jews, and how that shapes the way you

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Speaker 3: approach miracles.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm a lavy, and the lavy is someone

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Speaker 1: that's a servant of the kohene. And interestingly enough, Aaron,

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Speaker 1: Moses's brother was the first lavy, and what he did

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Speaker 1: was he performed miracles all day long with his staff,

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Speaker 1: and those were minor miracles.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's another thing that led to this.

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Speaker 1: So that's another thing that informed my faith, is that

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Speaker 1: I see myself as someone who performs service for others.

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Speaker 1: That's what I do as a physician, that's what I

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Speaker 1: try to do as a person. I think it's a

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Speaker 1: deep part of my identity, my faith. So I don't distinguish,

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Speaker 1: I don't distinguish, you know, so much between being Jewish

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Speaker 1: between being Christian. I think it's a matter of believing

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Speaker 1: in God, and I don't really think of it as

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Speaker 1: a separate issue. I think of it in terms of faith.

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Speaker 1: And I've experienced miracles in my own life that have

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Speaker 1: led me to that, Like when my first son was

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Speaker 1: born and I was going through a period of confusion,

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Speaker 1: like what's my role? What am I going to do?

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Speaker 1: And how do I care for my son? And I

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Speaker 1: was walking down the street and I saw a man

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Speaker 1: praying and he handed me his prayer book and he said,

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Speaker 1: take this and pray for the health of your newborn son.

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Speaker 1: And I said, how do you know I have a son?

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Speaker 1: I didn't say anything. So he was an angel from

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Speaker 1: the Lord. I mean there as I left Showan, I

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Speaker 1: look back over my shoulder.

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Speaker 2: Is he really there? A visitation?

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Speaker 1: He was there, But that changed my life and I pray.

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Speaker 1: But I don't judge people to say, oh, this is

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Speaker 1: their faith, this is my faith. I think there's a

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Speaker 1: community there. My friendship with Cardinal Doan is a great

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Speaker 1: example of that, or Jolo'stein. I'm friends with Jolostein Pastor

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Speaker 1: Ostein Pastor Sam Rodriguez, a dear close friend of mine,

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Speaker 1: inspired a lot of the parts of this book. He

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Speaker 1: in fact did a movie on Breakthrough. You were talking

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Speaker 1: about Breakthrough, and the breakthrough moment actually is when John Smith,

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Speaker 1: after everything he experiences, communes with Pastor Sam and then

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Speaker 1: he decides that what he's been through is so special

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Speaker 1: and so unusual. It brings him faith that he then

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Speaker 1: wants to show to the rest of the world. It's

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Speaker 1: the same thing that's happened to Christopher Smith. He's not

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Speaker 1: in my book, but he'll be in the next one,

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Speaker 1: who I reported on recently on TV. Smith got shot

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Speaker 1: in the head and a woman he was going on

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Speaker 1: a first date with got shot in the head as

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Speaker 1: well as she died. He survived and got a visitation

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Speaker 1: from his father, who died when he was eight years old,

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Speaker 1: and the vision said to him, the way you know

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Speaker 1: this is me, that I'm your father is that when

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Speaker 1: I was lying in my coffin, my best friend Brett,

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Speaker 1: put two marijuana cigarettes in my left pocket. And there's

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Speaker 1: only two people in the world that know about that,

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Speaker 1: Brett and your mother. And he said, you're gonna live.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna survive. This ordeal, and you're gonna wake up

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Speaker 1: and you're gonna go on to have a fairly normal life.

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Speaker 1: Chris Smith woke up two months later in the ICU,

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Speaker 1: remember that visitation, told his mother and she broke into tears,

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Speaker 1: talked to Brett. Only two people that knew it was

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Speaker 1: absolutely true. And then Smith went on cognitively and recovered.

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Speaker 1: He's got stem cell injections to get strengths back in

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Speaker 1: his left side, and he's going around spreading the word.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that's another message in my book,

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Speaker 1: which is spreading the word. Not read the stories and

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Speaker 1: see if you believe, See if you believe after you

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Speaker 1: read the stories, compared to win before you read them.

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Speaker 3: Where your book is primarily full of stories. And I

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Speaker 3: was reading it this morning to my wife as she

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Speaker 3: was running out the door to teach math today. I said,

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Speaker 3: oh man, there's some stories here over dinner tonight I

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Speaker 3: want to share with you and talk about and process.

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Speaker 3: So that jumped out to me really quick. It's full stories.

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Speaker 3: Part of me has a million theological questions for you

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Speaker 3: about your faith and how you practice it and what

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Speaker 3: that means. That is a separate conversation. Maybe we'll come

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Speaker 3: back to that. But I've also I've done a lot

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Speaker 3: of shows on visions and near death experiences, and I'm

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Speaker 3: convinced they're verritical. But let's jump to some of the

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Speaker 3: stories in the book. I read a lot of different

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Speaker 3: news sources. I read the New York Times every morning,

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Speaker 3: but one host I really enjoy is Brett Baer and

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Speaker 3: Him and His Son is the first story in your book,

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Speaker 3: which just jumped out to me. So share that story

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Speaker 3: as much as you can, and tell tell else why

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Speaker 3: you put that in the realm of a modern day miracle.

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Speaker 2: Because of the accumulation of events.

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Speaker 1: It's like everybody listening to this podcast or watching it

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Speaker 1: right now will know about the coincidence that occur when

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Speaker 1: you're thinking of someone in the phone rings right after that.

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Speaker 1: How did that happen? What is telepathy? Where's that coming from?

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Speaker 1: It's a direct proof of a larger spiritual reality. So

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Speaker 1: are dreams. Brett bare their son Paul, their first son Amy.

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Speaker 1: They meet with a series of coincidences. But then their

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Speaker 1: first son is born and he's not thriving, and he's

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Speaker 1: very pale. And the first miracle in that chapter is

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Speaker 1: that a doctor who's an expert at this happens to

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Speaker 1: be passing the hospital and he's not even on call,

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Speaker 1: and he says, you know, I think I'm going to

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Speaker 1: go in, and he.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't know why. Why does he go in?

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Speaker 1: Goes in, finds out about Paul, and says, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to look into this, even though he's not working.

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Speaker 2: He does an echo cardiogram.

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Speaker 1: He finds the problem in his heart, which is multiple

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Speaker 1: abnormalities cardiac congenital abnormalities, and over the next several months

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Speaker 1: they work on repairing them, and it's not perfect because

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Speaker 1: of the size, being so small of the heart. Brett

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Speaker 1: and Amy are a team. Amy full of love, Brett

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Speaker 1: full of having to have his questions answered. They meet

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Speaker 1: another woman there who has a child the same age

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Speaker 1: as Paul, in similar straits, and they root for each

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Speaker 1: other and they pray for each other. And Brett's prayer

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Speaker 1: is in my book. I have a prayer section in

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Speaker 1: my book of famous prayers written for the book by

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Speaker 1: great spiritual leaders. If I had known you, Sean, I

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Speaker 1: would have asked you for a prayer when I wrote

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Speaker 1: the book. But Brett's prayer is in there, and he says,

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Speaker 1: we pray for one more day, we pray for one

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Speaker 1: more day. That's a lot in the theme of this book.

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Speaker 2: And through the.

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Speaker 1: Years they go through different oh and tragically the woman

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Speaker 1: who is rooting with them, her daughter dies and they

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Speaker 1: feel great suffering over the loss, but she stays with

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Speaker 1: them as a dear friend over the years as they

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Speaker 1: become more and more involved in National Children's Hospital. The

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Speaker 1: chapter focuses on the fifth heart surgery where Paul has

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Speaker 1: a cold and he goes in to see his new

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Speaker 1: internest and he says, this is just a cold. But

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Speaker 1: then he says, but you know, same as the doctor

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Speaker 1: passing the hospital. You know, just to be sure, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to do a chest X ray. If you ask

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Speaker 1: that doctor as part of a board question, Sean, should

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Speaker 1: you do a chest X ray? The answer is no,

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Speaker 1: you don't. You wouldn't check that box. But God checks

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Speaker 1: the right box, right, so that intuition, maybe I should

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Speaker 1: do a chest X ray. And he does it and

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Speaker 1: it shows a slight widening of the heart and he said,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is normal for a kid, for a

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Speaker 1: guy in his condition, but just to be sure, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to show this to his cardiologist shows it to

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Speaker 1: his cardiologists who says, you know, I could pass this,

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Speaker 1: but just to be sure, I'm going to do an

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Speaker 1: echo cardiogram. He does an echo cardiogram and he finds

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Speaker 1: an aneurysm that's about to burst. They have surgery schedule

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Speaker 1: for the next day. Paul goes out and plays golf

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Speaker 1: with Brett. Paul wins, and then he gets his life

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Speaker 1: is saved with another successful operation. And over the years,

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Speaker 1: Amy and Brett, who are fantastic parents, are relinquishing more

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Speaker 1: control of the situation to their son, which is correct.

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Speaker 2: So he's a very courageous.

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Speaker 1: Young man with a lot of spiritual transcendence, because if

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Speaker 1: our souls are tested enough, we mature. The miracle in

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Speaker 1: that chapter is not one miracle. It's an accumulation of well,

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Speaker 1: maybe I shouldn't, but just to be sure is the miracle.

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Speaker 3: That distinction is helpful. I want to make sure our

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Speaker 3: audience doesn't miss that. You have some examples in your

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Speaker 3: book of prayers that are done and just instantaneous, supernatural

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Speaker 3: events take place to save somebody's life. That because the

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Speaker 3: timing and the specificity just can't be explained away scientifically alone.

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Speaker 3: Then you talk about miracle as a certain number of

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Speaker 3: seeming coincidences that collectively lead towards something positive that in

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Speaker 3: themselves can't be explained away when taken collectively. I'll let

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Speaker 3: folks think about that and analyze that. But is that

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Speaker 3: a fair distinction to you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's perfect, except that one thing needs to be

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Speaker 1: added here is get Brett and Amy prayed and prayed

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Speaker 1: and prayed every single day. And I believe that that's

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Speaker 1: part of it too. That's part of it too. And

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Speaker 1: I don't want science analyzing that. How ridiculous that we

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Speaker 1: would use the tool of science to analyze whether prayer

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Speaker 1: is working or not.

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Speaker 2: Wait, that's the opposite of what we should do. You

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Speaker 2: should use the.

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Speaker 1: Tool of prayer to analyze whether the science is working.

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Speaker 3: That quote you just said might go viral. I love

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Speaker 3: that that'll get some people thinking. So you mentioned within

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Speaker 3: the story before we move to the NFL player Tamar Hamlin,

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Speaker 3: and then a couple other counts that I think are

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Speaker 3: just stunning examples of sudden, supernatural kind of one time

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Speaker 3: intervention miracles. You mentioned somebody in the story with Brett

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Speaker 3: whose child was not healed and may have been praying

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Speaker 3: as well. Before we get to some of the other miracles.

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Speaker 3: What would you say as a person of faith, as

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Speaker 3: a scientist, as somebody. He says, I prayed, and he

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Speaker 3: say there's miracles amongst us, but I'm not experiencing one.

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Speaker 2: There's two answers to that.

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Speaker 1: One is that God chooses the miracles he wants to give.

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Speaker 1: That came from Dolan also and the other people in

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Speaker 1: the book. God gives us the miracles he wants to

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Speaker 1: give us, not the ones we pray for. And the

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Speaker 1: second part of that is I'll give let me stick

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Speaker 1: on the first part.

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Speaker 3: Sure.

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Speaker 1: The two examples from the Old Testament on that I

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Speaker 1: use in the book. One is Hannah is praying for

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Speaker 1: a son, and she's not given a son till she's very,

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Speaker 1: very old. Her sister has seven children, I believe multiple children,

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Speaker 1: and Hannah finally gets the son, and the son she

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Speaker 1: calls the son schmul or Samuel mean, God hurts my prayer.

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Speaker 1: But the lesson there is that God doesn't grant her

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Speaker 1: wish because she wishes for it. He grants the child

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Speaker 1: because he knows that Samuel is going to go on

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Speaker 1: to become a great prophet and lead a nation and

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Speaker 1: lead to King David. So that's the reason he grants

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Speaker 1: the prayer. And another striking example from the Old Testament

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Speaker 1: is Hezekiah, who's a king, and Hezekiah is suffering from

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Speaker 1: a sore that looks like it's going to kill him,

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Speaker 1: and he goes to Isaiah and Isaiah says, you're going

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Speaker 1: to die from that sore and Isaiah and Hezekiah doesn't

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Speaker 1: really want to accept that prophecy from Isaiah because Isaiah

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Speaker 1: is not God, he's a prophet. He doesn't want to

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Speaker 1: accept that prophecy, so he goes to God, and in

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Speaker 1: going directly to God, Hezekiah learns that what's really at

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Speaker 1: stake here is that Hezekiah has a father who is

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Speaker 1: a bad king. Hezekiah was a great king. Hezekiah's son

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Speaker 1: is destined to be a bad king. And God says,

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Speaker 1: I will save you, but you have to follow your faith.

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Speaker 1: So Hezekiah marries Isaiah's daughter and has a child who's

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Speaker 1: a bad king, and his sores are healed and he

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Speaker 1: lives on God saves him. That's a really great lesson

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Speaker 1: of God giving the miracles that he wants us to have,

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Speaker 1: not the ones we're asking for, because because what Isaiah,

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Speaker 1: what Hezekiah was asking for is I don't want my

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Speaker 1: son to be another bad king, but God, prophet God

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Speaker 1: had chosen that he would be a bad king.

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Speaker 2: The other thing I want to and I.

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Speaker 1: And I have that in the chapter in my book,

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Speaker 1: and then and then it leads to a story from

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Speaker 1: the Holocaust. But I also want to talk about something else,

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Speaker 1: which is that a few of the characters in my book,

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Speaker 1: most strikingly in the chapter about October seventh, twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: an amazing story of a family that was saved from

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Speaker 1: a fire where they were burned alive by Amas. The

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Speaker 1: I ask when I'm interviewing them, why did God choose

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Speaker 1: you for the miracle? Why did God choose you? And

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Speaker 1: their answer is very sobering, And it's the same thing

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Speaker 1: that Benjamin Hall, our amazing reporter at Fox, has said

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Speaker 1: to me, which is, I refuse to call what happened

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Speaker 1: to me a miracle, because even though it is, it

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Speaker 1: dishonors those who didn't make it. To be the recipient

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Speaker 1: of a miracle is a very humbling thing. It's not

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Speaker 1: something that you brag about.

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Speaker 3: That's such an interesting point. There's a certain weight to

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Speaker 3: experience a miracle. Everybody wants one, but then when you

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Speaker 3: get one and others don't for reasons, Like you said,

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Speaker 3: God's sovereignty, we may or may not understand. There's a

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Speaker 3: weight that comes to that, maybe akin to what some

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Speaker 3: people call survivors guild. But nonetheless, you and I might

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Speaker 3: differ over some things in the New Testament, but we

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Speaker 3: agree to God is sovereign in that he does miracles

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Speaker 3: according to his prerogative and larger desire for the world.

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Speaker 3: So that's a really helpful point to dry out. Tell

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Speaker 3: us about the chapter on the NFL player Damar Hamlin

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Speaker 3: and why you consider that a modern miracle.

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Speaker 1: Because the other thing I'm trying to do in this

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Speaker 1: book is to look underneath what everyone thinks the miracle

435
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 1: is and see if there's another miracle that you don't

436
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 1: know about. I want it to be and what my

437
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 1: editor to the book says, make it so that the

438
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 1: reader doesn't know the miracle. Off the top, the miracle

439
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: with DeMar would seem to be, Wow, he fell down,

440
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: he had a cardiac arrest, they brought him back.

441
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 2: That would seemed to be the miracle. Sure, here's the

442
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 2: real miracle.

443
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 1: The real miracle is that Damar Hamlin safety for the

444
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 1: Buffalo Bills, got hit in the chest with a helmet

445
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: right in the middle of his cardiac cycle, even with

446
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 1: shoulder pads on, and had a cardiac arrest. That is

447
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: really really unusual for someone of his age wearing full garb.

448
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 2: It's really really, really really rare.

449
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 1: But on top of that, it turns out, and I

450
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: found this out through interviewing multiple people. I interviewed the

451
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 1: team physician for the Cincinnati Bengals, who talked about what

452
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: happened on the field. But then I got to Leslie Bisson,

453
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 1: who's the team physician for the Buffalo Bills, and they

454
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 1: run the show for their visit for their players, even

455
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 1: if they're in a visiting stadium. And Bisson said, back

456
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: in two thousand and seven, look at how this miracle works, Sewan.

457
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 1: We're talking twenty twenty three here, and the miracle starts

458
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,880
Speaker 1: back in two thousand and seven. This is how God

459
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 1: performs miracles. I had a skater, he said, that was

460
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 1: visiting the Buffalo Savers and I was their team physician,

461
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 1: and he got a skate to the coortid artery and

462
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: he almost spled to death and I barely saved them.

463
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: And he had multiple units of blood and thank god

464
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: he was okay. And I said, at that point, if

465
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 1: I'm gonna petition paid in sports medicine for these guys

466
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: who are larger than life, they're like superheroes, they're like,

467
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: you know, physical prowess, he says, I'm going to insist

468
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 1: that we rehearse severe outcomes and cardiac arrests every month,

469
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 1: every single month, as what we would do.

470
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 2: And he said, everybody made fun of me.

471
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 1: There hasn't been a cardiac arrest in the NFL since

472
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty five. Why would you do that? And I

473
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 1: made him do it, he said, I made him do it.

474
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 1: Take the shoulder pants off, here are the scissors, apply

475
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: the defibrillator, rush onto the field.

476
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 2: Rehearsed.

477
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: So when it got to DeMar, they just hauled out

478
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 1: the rehearsal and they got his heart started again within

479
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: one minute time his brain. So the reason he recovered

480
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: was because of that protocol that nobody thought, that everyone

481
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 1: thought was insane. Then of course he had several days

482
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: where he was coming back to himself. It wasn't the

483
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 1: way the media presented it. And it is a true

484
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: miracle that he went from there to playing again. But

485
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: the reason the miracle occurred was because of this spooky

486
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: rehearsal that Bison told me he had a premonition.

487
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 3: I do have to say one of my favorite parts

488
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 3: of the chapter is that when Demarrow came back to consciousness,

489
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 3: his first question was who won the game? And the

490
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 3: doctor says back, you won the game of life? Like

491
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 3: that gave me goosebumps. And I agree with you if

492
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,199
Speaker 3: we're using the term kind of a soft miracle, Like

493
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 3: I think you're right about this, but I can also

494
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 3: understand why skeptics go, yeah, but maybe they're just lucky.

495
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 3: Like try to explain it away evidentially speaking, these next

496
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 3: two examples that you give, by the way, I.

497
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 2: Don't think they can.

498
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 3: I don't think they can tell me about that roach.

499
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: Let's explain something away. Why would you do that? Why

500
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: don't you learn and.

501
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 2: Listen from the proximity issue?

502
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: You know, Like like I just told you something about

503
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: Hamlin that's unbelieve but it actually happened, you know. So

504
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: it's I call it not in the book, but I've

505
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: called it since the book the miracle lane.

506
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 2: You're in a lane.

507
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: And somebody said to me last night at an interview

508
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: of something I liked. Imagine all the things that wouldn't

509
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: have led to this lane, in other words, where it

510
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: didn't all come together the right way. That's also evidence

511
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: of God's fingerprints when everything happens in just the right way.

512
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: My father's one hundred and two years old. He's on dialysis.

513
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: He had a ventilator, and he was ninety eight. He

514
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: had a hip operation and a pin put in his

515
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: hip when he was ninety eight. He survived major abdominal

516
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: surgery and hernia repair. When he was ninety eight, he

517
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: had a fistol that was draining and the surgeon said

518
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: it's never gonna heal, but it healed.

519
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,719
Speaker 2: And he's one hundred and two and my mother's a hundred.

520
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 2: How did that happen?

521
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 1: Because at each turn of the road, a seeming non

522
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: miracle added to an attumnbe that is a miracle. One

523
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: hundred and two, one hundred still with it held together

524
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 1: by love doesn't want to leave the other one alone.

525
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 3: So for the skeptic were to push back and say,

526
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 3: you know, doctor Siegel, it may it makes sense. There's

527
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 3: a number of factors that line up for say tomorrow

528
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 3: Hammelin line up for your father who's one hundred and two,

529
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 3: which is pretty amazing. But most people don't survive that

530
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 3: kind of cardiac arress. Most people don't live to one

531
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 3: hundred and two. So given how many people there are,

532
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 3: it makes sense that just mathematically, at times we'd have

533
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 3: these exceptions and we're calling them a miracle, but mathematically speaking,

534
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 3: there could be an explanation for him.

535
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 1: Well, that's part of what a miracle is a miracle.

536
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: That's Dolan's soft miracles, which is that at each juncture

537
00:30:54,920 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: there could be a partial scientific reason. I looked at

538
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 1: for another book I did on that, not a miracle book,

539
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: but I have a story in this book of a

540
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: guy who rises out of a wheelchair to attack someone

541
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: who owes him two million dollars when he hasn't walked

542
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: in months and months and months, and a psychiatrist said,

543
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: we're putting you in a mental hospital for saying you're

544
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: going to do that, because you can't do that. You

545
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: can't do that. Well, he did it, and why did

546
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: he do it? How did he do it? How can

547
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: somebody walk again that was told they're never going to

548
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: walk again.

549
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 2: I can come up with some.

550
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: Science, said, your brain pivots the hamstrings, and that when

551
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: your mind is on fire, you can somehow partly. There's

552
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: always some science, but miracles aren't. Again, only the Catholic

553
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: Church maybe disagrees with me the strict interpretation of the Vatican.

554
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: And that's why I include in the book a chapter

555
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: on lords, and I take very seriously with the Catholic

556
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: Churches saying, but there's a broad expanse of miracles that

557
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: are an accumulation, like Aaron's miracles in the Old Testament,

558
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: and so this guy rising out of the wheelchair is

559
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: a miracle.

560
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 3: So this story really hit me because it's about an

561
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 3: eighth grader outside of Saint Louis, and I have a

562
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 3: son who rode his bike to school this morning. He's

563
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 3: a seventh grader who fell through the ice and was

564
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 3: underwater at least ten minutes, flatlined for more than fifty Well,

565
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 3: i'm reading this, I got goosebumps and just this sense

566
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 3: of like the worst nightmare a parent could imagine. Tell

567
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 3: us what happened? Why you consider that a miracle?

568
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: By the way, I just want to be clear on

569
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: something that I believe that each miracle in each chapter

570
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: of this book, whether I'm using my definition of soft

571
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: miracles or accumulation of miracles, or one that's more stark,

572
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: where like you know, like Dodio Stein comes home and

573
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: praise and has a series of prayers and cancer goes

574
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: away four times, four diferent cancers go away, and she starts,

575
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: and she's in the Lakewood Church and people come there

576
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: to have their cancer go and some of them do,

577
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: some of them do. There's a great healing aspect going

578
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: on there with Joel O'stein and paul O'stein, and Dody

579
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: Ostein and Lisa O'stein comes, lis O'stein comes, all of

580
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: them I interviewed for this book. But I also believe

581
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: the other chapters are miracles. I think Tomorrow Damar is

582
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: a miracle. I think Brett bear Soon is a miracle.

583
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: I think some of the ones I haven't mentioned are

584
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: the chapter on Breakthrough. I'll tell you something that I

585
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: haven't been saying, which you'll resonate with. Part of that

586
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: miracle does involve Pastor Sam Rodriguez because he had a sister,

587
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: he had a daughter who was he had a daughter

588
00:33:54,720 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: who was dying in the ICU of Covid, and he

589
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: was one of the first that was put on steroids

590
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: and she was on echmo, she was on respiratory assist

591
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 1: and she was fading. And Sam was in another room

592
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: praying and all of a sudden he felt something. He

593
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: felt something and he called up his daughter and he said,

594
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: has something just changed and the door because I was

595
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: just praying for you, and she said, there were just

596
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,479
Speaker 1: angels in the room here with me. And he asked

597
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: what the angels looked like. She said they were light

598
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: and they were very positive. From that moment on, she recovered.

599
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: So that's one kind of miracle. And then Sam was

600
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: involved with the breakthrough miracle where the eighth grader, these

601
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 1: guys go to the lake Lake Saint Louis and it's

602
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: freezing out and they go skating on the ice the

603
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: way boys do. They come home and the sister of

604
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: one of the boys says.

605
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 2: Why didn't you include me? So they say, okay, we'll

606
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 2: go again. So the next day they go back to

607
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 2: the lake idiots.

608
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: It's in the forties and they go skating on the

609
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 1: ice again and they all fall in. The emergency responders

610
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 1: come and they can't find John Smith. They got the

611
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 1: other two and then there's a voice from the shore

612
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 1: that says fifteen feet to the right. And one of

613
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: the things I do in each of these chapters is

614
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 1: verify all of this because I want the reader to

615
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: know this is the truth. I'm telling you. It's not

616
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: just some fanciful story. That's why you don't have to

617
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 1: be a believer to believe at the end of this book,

618
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: because there was no one at the shore, but the

619
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: voice was of the boss of the emergency responder. I

620
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: know that because I called him and I went over

621
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 1: with him. I said, where will you when this happened?

622
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: He said, I was in my office in Saint Louis.

623
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: I said, did you have a sense of what was

624
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 1: going on? He said yes, but I wasn't there. And

625
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: so they pull John Smith out of the water. And

626
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 1: so then I knew some medical critics might say to me,

627
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:10,720
Speaker 1: and no one has. By the way, I think doctors

628
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 1: are actually believers, because I haven't been getting a lot

629
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: of negative feedback at all on this book because it's

630
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 1: so researched.

631
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 2: And they pull.

632
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: Him out of the water, and I knew someone was

633
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 1: going to say, could this be hypothermia?

634
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 2: So I called up Michael Boden, who's.

635
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 1: In another one of the chapters in this book, the

636
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: top forensic pathologist in the country. I said, what would

637
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: it be to be in the water for fifteen minutes

638
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: in the forty temperatures in the forties like on that day.

639
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 2: He says, minimal, minimal.

640
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 1: He says, if you're if it's in the twenties or

641
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,280
Speaker 1: you know, ten degrees, then you could say the organs

642
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: are frozen and it might take a while for them

643
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: to thaw.

644
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:51,959
Speaker 2: But in the.

645
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: Forties you get a minimal amount of hypothermic effect. So

646
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: the fact that he has no pulse for over like

647
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 1: fifty to fifty five minutes is unheard of. Now they

648
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 1: start CPR, They get him to the hospital, and the

649
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 1: team in the hospital wants to let go. They they've

650
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: never brought anybody back from fifty five minutes. I talk

651
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:17,320
Speaker 1: to all of them, the emergency responders, the physicians, They all.

652
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,879
Speaker 2: Say that.

653
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 1: They've never had a case like this. She the mother,

654
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 1: would not let him go, she said to them, And

655
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: I interviewed her too. She said to them, wait till

656
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: I get to the hospital, do not let him go.

657
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 1: Now that sentiment is normal, Yeah, that part's not a miracle.

658
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: But the fact that they listen to her, and she

659
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: gets to the hospital. She hits the er and gets

660
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 1: down on her knees and prays to God. As soon

661
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: as she does that, his pulse comes back. And then

662
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 1: I said to the doctors, Okay, that's clearly God's presence,

663
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: that's divine intervention. But what's the chances that John Smith

664
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,720
Speaker 1: could get from from there to anything resembling normal life.

665
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 1: They say, zero. We've never had a case like that.

666
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: We never had the fifty five minutes, we've never had

667
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: under the ice, We've never had that voice from the shore.

668
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: And John Smith fully recovers when his post comes back.

669
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 1: I interviewed him for this book. And then the breakthrough

670
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 1: occurs years later when he meets Pastor Sam and tells

671
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 1: him this story, and he becomes a devout Christian, realizing

672
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 1: that he is the recipient.

673
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 2: Of a miracle.

674
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: And like a lot of people in this book, and

675
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 1: this may be the part I'm proudest of, and it

676
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: goes for DeMar Hamlin, it goes for many of the

677
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 1: people in the book.

678
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 2: Tomar gives back. He's out in the.

679
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: Community doing CPR teaching CPR teaching the proper use of defibrillators,

680
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 1: creating scholarships for underprivileged young people as a result of

681
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:54,919
Speaker 1: God blessing him.

682
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 2: And that's what John Smith did. He became an evangelical.

683
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 2: He it uses his story to teach people to believe.

684
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 3: That did jump out to me because I teach a

685
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 3: class at Tables School theology on why does God allow evil?

686
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:11,919
Speaker 3: And one of the things we talk about, and there's

687
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 3: so many more pieces than this, is that when people

688
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 3: go through suffering, that often awakens them to give back

689
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,879
Speaker 3: in exponential ways. You see that with Damari, you see

690
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 3: that with so many other stories that you tell. So

691
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 3: that's one way God can use such tragedies. But let

692
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 3: me ask you one.

693
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,839
Speaker 1: It's by the way, that may be why, that may

694
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 1: be why the pontav is saying the redemptive value in

695
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: human suffering one of the reasons.

696
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 3: One of the reasons good. So one of the stories

697
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 3: that really jumped out to me for a number of reasons,

698
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 3: but in part because one of the doctors and people

699
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,840
Speaker 3: there were on Camps Crusade for Christ's staff. My parents

700
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 3: are still on Crusade staff, what is known as crew.

701
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 3: So I've been on trips kind of like this, and

702
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 3: it's in the Mountains of Sudan, and it's not where

703
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 3: the heart art of the war is at, but you

704
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,319
Speaker 3: describe how it spills over into this area and how

705
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 3: I think there's a hospital within. I can't move said

706
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 3: one hundred or three hundred miles, like medical care is

707
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 3: just so rare. And there's a three year old named Rita.

708
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 3: Tell us the story of what happened, and in particular,

709
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 3: don't leave out the detail about the YouTube video and

710
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 3: the internet connection, because that strikes as something almost clearly supernatural.

711
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 3: I think, at least to critics.

712
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: I've been lucky enough, through an organization called African Mission Healthcare,

713
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 1: to meet a number of amazing missionary doctors who are

714
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 1: out there saving lives by the thousands. And the Nuba

715
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: Mountains of Sudan is right in the middle of war

716
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 1: torn Sudan, which everybody knows about. People are displaced, there's

717
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 1: more refugees there than anywhere in the world, and people

718
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: are living in caves, people are living without running water.

719
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 1: It's horrendous. In the middle of all this is Tom Katina,

720
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 1: who's a family practitioner. He was a name flight surgeon

721
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,240
Speaker 1: and went to the same university. I went to Brown

722
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 1: and he he's a real larger than life figure. I

723
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 1: have interviewed him a few times on the radio for

724
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: this book, recently for our Fox Nation special. He's just

725
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: larger than life, very very humble man. And he runs

726
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 1: this entire hot four hundred and fifty bed hospital. And

727
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 1: one day a young girl named Rita comes and he

728
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 1: uses a cat skin and diagnoses her with bilateral kidney

729
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:34,280
Speaker 1: cancer called Wilm's tumor. But he's only ever operated removing

730
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 1: a single kidney. He's never done a partial in the

731
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 1: frectomy remove half of a kidney. And you've got to

732
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: understand these conditions. Generally, no anesthesiologists. They use bellows to

733
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: blow the anesthesia over a person. You know, they have

734
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: intravenous they have medications, but they have a lot of scarcity.

735
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: They have to use old autoclaves to sterilize equipment.

736
00:41:55,800 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 2: It's very rudimentary stuff. And he happened to have visiting him.

737
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: I'm another family practitioner from Washington, DC, who said, what

738
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 1: are you going to do? And Tom said, I'm gonna

739
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 1: have to try to operate, but I've never done this before.

740
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 1: So the other doctor says, why don't you go on

741
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 1: the Internet and see if you can get an instructional

742
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: video for surgeons on this, and Katina said, and I

743
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: asked Katina about his surgical skill for the Fox Nation special,

744
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: and he's very.

745
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 2: Very, very very good surgeon.

746
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,439
Speaker 1: But he made an interesting comment that he didn't train

747
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 1: as a surgeon in school, so he doesn't understand surgical

748
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,240
Speaker 1: disease the way a surgeon might. But his technical skills

749
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 1: are top notch. So but he can't do this surgery.

750
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: So he goes on the Internet, but there is no internet,

751
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: and there hasn't been an Internet working there for weeks

752
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,320
Speaker 1: and weeks and weeks. So they go to the computer

753
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,240
Speaker 1: and they're pounding on the computer and all of a sudden,

754
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 1: out of nowhere, God wills the internet to be on

755
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:05,359
Speaker 1: after weeks of no internet, and it's very slow and

756
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 1: they can barely get it anything to upload, and they

757
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: managed to go to YouTube and to get an instructional

758
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:19,439
Speaker 1: video of how to do a partial the phrectomy in Polish.

759
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:24,359
Speaker 1: Sean in Polish, and neither of them speak Polish, and

760
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 1: they must. They're agonizingly going through this video with almost

761
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 1: none of the equipment that the Polish surgeons have, and

762
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 1: halfway through it crashes and they look at each other

763
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 1: and they go, well, Polish, we don't understand equipment, we

764
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: don't have.

765
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 2: What do we do?

766
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 1: And they said, maybe we just got enough information here

767
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:48,720
Speaker 1: to make this work.

768
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:49,240
Speaker 2: Maybe.

769
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 1: So he goes ahead and he does the operation, removes

770
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: the cancer's kidney, removes what he thinks the other half

771
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 1: of the kidney is and is successful he thinks, but

772
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: he's estimating. And he gets her out of anesthesia. There's

773
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 1: rudimentary anesthesia, and he gives her chemo because they don't

774
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: have radiation in this hospital, and she goes back to

775
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 1: her cave or wherever she's living with her mother. Six

776
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:27,959
Speaker 1: months later, she comes back completely cured. A year later,

777
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 1: comes back completely cured, no recurrence, and that's God's divine intervention.

778
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, that story was amazing to me. I'm just trying

779
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 3: to picture it in my mind of like no internet connection,

780
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,359
Speaker 3: you happen to get an internet connection enough to have

781
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 3: a YouTube video which is more than an email, and

782
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 3: then they find the right video in Polish, and I'm

783
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:53,919
Speaker 3: just imagining this brilliant doctor who's watching YouTube video how

784
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 3: to do a surgery, and it's enough to help him

785
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 3: to do it. She recovers. It's just like, you can't

786
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 3: make this kind of story up. So that was one

787
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 3: of my favorite. You have a full story that you

788
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 3: don't need to go into detail. In terms of the

789
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 3: chapter in which the Congressman Steve Scalise is shot on

790
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:15,399
Speaker 3: a baseball field in twenty seventeen. I'm bringing this one

791
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 3: up because I'd love you to comment on a quote

792
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 3: in there from another congressman. And the heart of my

793
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,320
Speaker 3: question is just how you see the connection between faith,

794
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:29,359
Speaker 3: just having belief and healing even if there's not a

795
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 3: supernatural miracle. And I ask it that way because in

796
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 3: light of the recovery of Congressman Steve Scalise, another congressman said, quote,

797
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 3: Steve's support structure and faith leads to his courage and strength.

798
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 3: It leads directly to his ability to recover. So this

799
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 3: seems to be this congreman is just saying there's not

800
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 3: necessarily a miracle that took place here, if I read

801
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 3: it correctly, but just having faith contributes to somebody healing.

802
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 3: How do you see that intersection between faith and healing,

803
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 3: even if there may not be a miracle.

804
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 2: There is a miracle, and Scalise says there's a miracle.

805
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: He said flat out for the book and for the

806
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: Fox Nation special that his survival here was a miracle.

807
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 1: But you're talking about something else that I'll get to

808
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 1: in a minute. But the first part of the miracle

809
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 1: is that Brad Weinstrip, a fellow congressman, happens to be

810
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 1: in the batting cage that day when he's never in

811
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:27,280
Speaker 1: the batting cage. He hates the batting cage. He doesn't

812
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: like balls thrown his way, he doesn't like the automatic machine.

813
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: He's never in the batting cage. He doesn't know why

814
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: he was in the batting cage. If he hadn't been

815
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,879
Speaker 1: in the batting cage, he would have been shot because

816
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: he would have been in a position to be killed.

817
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: That's the first part of the miracle. The thing you're

818
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: referring to, though, is that Scalise says that when he

819
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 1: gives over control to God the way we all should,

820
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 1: God is a higher being.

821
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 2: God is the Almighty.

822
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 1: When you understand that the only thing you shoul supposed

823
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 1: to be afraid of is God, not each other, not

824
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 1: physical circumstances, not daily coincidences, not somebody yelling at you,

825
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 1: not somebody antagonizing you. But God is what you have

826
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: to worry about and be afraid of and make amends

827
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 1: with and pray to when you realize that school, he says,

828
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 1: a colm comes over you, and that's what he was

829
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 1: referring to. But what happened there was an enormous miracle

830
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 1: because why was Winstrip there? Why did weinstrimp think to

831
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: rush out and apply the tourniquet. Why did Winstrip give

832
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 1: him fluids? Why did Winstrip get the guy over with

833
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 1: the intravenous from the ambulance? Why did Weinstrip say, not

834
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 1: the ambulance, the helicopter. The helicopter. The ambulance would have

835
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,280
Speaker 1: killed them. He would have been stuck in DC traffic.

836
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: Why the helicopter. They got the helicopter. They get him

837
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 1: to the hospital. He's lost fifty units of blood. He

838
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,880
Speaker 1: comes in with a blood pressure of about zero. Then

839
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: a surgeon and an interventional radiologist get together. They've never

840
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: worked together before. They put clams on this severed artery

841
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 1: in his that's in pieces. It's like it's like fragmented,

842
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 1: and they say, we can't save anybody like this. They

843
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 1: wheel a patient out of an operating room with clamps

844
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:16,279
Speaker 1: into an interventional radiology suite. I've never seen that. I've

845
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: never heard of that. These doctors have never heard of that.

846
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 1: But the interventional radiologists working with an open abdomen is

847
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: able to find the parts of the artery to burn off,

848
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 1: to close off with a burning equipment called a brov

849
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 1: and made it so that the surgion was then able

850
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 1: to operate while they're pouring blood into him. All of

851
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 1: this occurs, then he gets out of surgery praying every day,

852
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:44,439
Speaker 1: praying to God. And then there's a term that you're

853
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 1: very familiar with called community intercession. People were praying for

854
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:52,399
Speaker 1: Steve Scullies from all over the world. Those prayers came

855
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 1: in and he says, imbued him with more and more strength.

856
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 2: Other prayers accumulated, and he.

857
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 1: Got through a very difficult rehab process, recovered completely and

858
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: went back to Congress.

859
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 3: So you hinted at this earlier, and I'd love for

860
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 3: you to talk about a little bit more. You work

861
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 3: at NYU professor as a doctor, so just a prestigious,

862
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 3: highly respected university and medical system, and yet I'm really

863
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 3: curious how other doctors and or academics view you. Like

864
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 3: what feedback you've got criticism you've got, is it like, well,

865
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 3: doctor Siegel means well, but he hasn't got the memo

866
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 3: that these things don't happen today, or are you in

867
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:39,240
Speaker 3: the norm? Like, how do people in both those different worlds,

868
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,759
Speaker 3: as best as you can tell, perceive the work you're

869
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 3: doing and especially going to public with it.

870
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 1: Well, this particular book is what you're referring to, and

871
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 1: it's had a very, very favorable reaction in the medical community.

872
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 1: Nobody's feeling threatened by it. Nobody is defending their atheism.

873
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 1: I think I have a theory as to why. I

874
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 1: think it's the way I wrote the book. I think

875
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 1: the book says, Read this and then you decide I'm

876
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: not beating anybody over the head with anything. Read the

877
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:10,839
Speaker 1: book and you decide. I think my beliefs are pretty mainstream.

878
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,359
Speaker 1: But I think what I'm bringing to this that isn't

879
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 1: really been talked about before is that I'm creating a

880
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 1: theory that's really going to be quite popular, which is

881
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:28,720
Speaker 1: that instead of dismissing people, let's honor them. And doctors

882
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:31,800
Speaker 1: want to do that. That goes back to calling medicine

883
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 1: or calling at a time of robotics and AI and

884
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 1: computerization and personalized high tech solutions. It's very refreshing for

885
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 1: a doctor to say, let's also honor the human soul

886
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: and let's honor the preciousness of each life.

887
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 2: Doctors take very well to this message.

888
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 3: Tells me of exactly who you're writing this to, because

889
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 3: I really want to interview you because I'm an apologist

890
00:50:57,880 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 3: and an evangelist, and I've had a number of doc

891
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,240
Speaker 3: there's and others on again to talk about miracles, prayer,

892
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 3: near death experiences. So this isn't an apologetics book, but

893
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 3: there's a lot of apologetic ideas and arguments within it.

894
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 3: It's not an academic book. It's a popular book. So

895
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:17,839
Speaker 3: who are you hoping primarily picks this up.

896
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,399
Speaker 1: I think it's a book for everyone. I think it's

897
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:26,840
Speaker 1: a book for believers to see another believer and to

898
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 1: see examples. It's a book of stories that people can

899
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:34,400
Speaker 1: relate to who are believers. It's also a book for

900
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 1: people on the fence who kind of want to believe,

901
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 1: but they don't have examples of it. That's why I

902
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 1: wrote the book the way I did, with so many sources.

903
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 1: I'm not telling you a story of breakthrough from John

904
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 1: Smith's point of view alone, I'm telling you from the

905
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 1: point of view of his mother. You don't want to

906
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 1: believe him or his mother. You got Pastor Sam. You

907
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:55,879
Speaker 1: don't want to believe him because you think he's too

908
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:59,919
Speaker 1: enthusiastic about Christianity. You've got the doctor in the ear

909
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:01,879
Speaker 1: why would he make anything up? You got the other

910
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 1: doctor that took care of him in the ICU. You

911
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 1: have the nurses I interviewed, so you know, you have

912
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 1: the emergency responder who said I heard a voice. The

913
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 1: voice said, yeah, that was me, but I wasn't there.

914
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 1: So all of that is in there. So it's a

915
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,760
Speaker 1: book for non believers as well as believers, and maybe,

916
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: if I had to say, it would be for people

917
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: on the fence.

918
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 3: Totally fair. So last question, I'm kind of curious how

919
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 3: you decided which stories to include, and if there's I

920
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 3: didn't count correct me on this one, maybe ten or

921
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,719
Speaker 3: twelve kind of stories that you focus on. How many

922
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 3: other stories are there that you could have included that

923
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 3: you didn't.

924
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 1: There's sixteen chapters, there's probably twenty to twenty five miracles

925
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:51,439
Speaker 1: in here, and there's probably another ten that didn't make

926
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:55,839
Speaker 1: it either. Because I didn't get enough sourcing to feel

927
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 1: that I could hit someone over the head with it.

928
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 1: Yet maybe I'll put it in the sequel, or or

929
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 1: I thought of it after I had written the book,

930
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 1: or I wish I.

931
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:07,319
Speaker 2: Had put it in, or.

932
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 1: I got the story after because people are pouring miracles

933
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: into me now and I'm looking through them already. But

934
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 1: I think my favorite miracle sean that didn't make the

935
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 1: book and should have let's put it under this should have, okay,

936
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 1: is that I mentioned the prayer of Hannah and praying

937
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 1: for a son whose name was Samuel, the prophet Samuel.

938
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:38,680
Speaker 1: I put that in there, but I also intended to

939
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,439
Speaker 1: use a prayer about my second son, my youngest son,

940
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 1: because when he was born, I didn't have a name

941
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 1: for him. I used biblical names, but I didn't have

942
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 1: a name for him, and my wife was pregnant with him,

943
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 1: and I was in I was praying in synagogue on

944
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 1: the high holiday Rushashana, and the guy in front of

945
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 1: me had a baby on his shoulder, and I said,

946
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:02,320
Speaker 1: what's the name of that baby?

947
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 2: And he said Samuel.

948
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 1: And then I looked down and I was reading the

949
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: Prayer of Hannah at the exact moment and it said,

950
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 1: you know. And then my son was born and his

951
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 1: name was Schmuhl. And then I come home from praying

952
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 1: and my daughter is there and she said, I just

953
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:20,240
Speaker 1: saw this TV show, this cartoon about Samuel. All three

954
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:24,360
Speaker 1: things occur within a half hour, and I'm telling everybody

955
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 1: listening to this, you all.

956
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 2: Know that that's not a coincidence.

957
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 1: Then on top of that, I name him that, and

958
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 1: he's born and he can't hear when he's born, which

959
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 1: is God reminding me that he's in charge of miracles,

960
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 1: not me.

961
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,240
Speaker 2: So I prayed and they cleared out.

962
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 1: His ears and he got his hearing back before he

963
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:45,760
Speaker 1: was discharged from the hospital.

964
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 2: But his first two years.

965
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 1: Of life he had a lot of hearing infections and

966
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:52,239
Speaker 1: hearing issues, and he's over them now, thank God. But

967
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 1: God reminding me that he's in charge of not just

968
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,840
Speaker 1: what name I choose, but what happens.

969
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:02,280
Speaker 3: Well, mar I thoroughly enjoyed your book. It was actually

970
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:04,360
Speaker 3: a friend of mine, Steve Miller, who I've interviewed probably

971
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 3: half a dozen times, one of the experts today on

972
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:09,840
Speaker 3: near death experiences, who sent me a link and instantly

973
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 3: I thought, oh, man, if doctor Mark Siegel would come

974
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 3: on and talk about it. I would love to have them.

975
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:17,399
Speaker 3: And as I said earlier, my wife was rushing out

976
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 3: the door to go teach. I said, hang on, I

977
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,319
Speaker 3: want to share this story with you about Brett Bhaer,

978
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:24,879
Speaker 3: whom we both enjoy watching on the news regularly, story

979
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 3: about Tamar Hamlin and the other one. So I appreciate

980
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 3: the tone. I would second what you said that you're

981
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 3: not banging people with these miracles. You're saying, here's what

982
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 3: I've seen, Here's where I think the evidence points. You

983
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 3: read and you decide, And I think that's a great

984
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:41,440
Speaker 3: tone for a book like this. So really appreciate you

985
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 3: coming on, folks. Before you click away and make sure

986
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:47,200
Speaker 3: you hit subscribe. We are going to have more stories

987
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 3: and interviews on the supernatural, on miracles. You won't want

988
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:52,800
Speaker 3: to miss it. And if you want to study apologetics formally,

989
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 3: come study with me at Talbot's School of Theology. Information below,

990
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:02,280
Speaker 3: And we also have a certificate program that we just updated,

991
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:05,520
Speaker 3: big discount below where you can learn apologetics and defending

992
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 3: the faith kind of at your own pace and we'll

993
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:11,440
Speaker 3: walk you through it. Doctor Mark Siegel, keep us posted

994
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:14,279
Speaker 3: on your next book. Especially when it intersects with kind

995
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:19,480
Speaker 3: of supernatural apologetic theology type questions. We'd love to have

996
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 3: you back to talk about it. Thanks for your time.

997
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 1: You are a terrific host and a terrific human being.

998
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 1: You're walking God's path. Thank you so much for having

999
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 1: me today.

1000
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:31,800
Speaker 3: You're very kind. Thank you. Hey, friends, if you enjoyed

1001
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:35,359
Speaker 3: this show, please hit that fall button on your podcast app.

1002
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:37,840
Speaker 3: Most of you tuning in haven't done this yet, and

1003
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1004
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:43,880
Speaker 3: equip more people and build community. And please consider leaving

1005
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 3: a podcast review. Every review helps. Thanks for listening to

1006
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:51,000
Speaker 3: the Sean McDowell Show, brought to you by Talbot School

1007
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 3: of Theology at Biola University, where we have on campus

1008
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:58,880
Speaker 3: and online programs and apologetic spiritual information, marriage and family, Bible,

1009
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 3: and so much more. We would love to train you

1010
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,760
Speaker 3: to more effectively live, teach, and defend the Christian faith

1011
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,760
Speaker 3: today and we will see you when the next episode drops.

1012
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:09,880
Speaker 2: H