1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Life Audio. Thank you for joining us on your favorite 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: podcast platform. Did you know that we are also on 3 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: YouTube If you want to watch the podcast, join us 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: for I Wish You Could Hear This on our YouTube channel. 5 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to I Wish You Could Hear This, where we 6 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: explore great stories and simple, proven steps to help you 7 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: thrive in life, faith, and relationships. 8 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:33,279 Speaker 2: In our research, we've heard hundreds of Hopefield strategies for marriage, parenting, leadership, 9 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 2: and life that are grounded in science and consistent with 10 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 2: biblical truth, and now you can hear them too. 11 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: I'm Shanti Feldhan and I'm Jeff Felt. One of the 12 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: most difficult issues that faces couples today is the pain 13 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: that comes when one person is dealing with a compulsion 14 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: or addiction to pornography, or has engaged in some other 15 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: sort of betrayal that can be traumatic for the betrayed 16 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: partner and the marriage. Or maybe the trauma wasn't even 17 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: inflicted by the spouse but by an outside traumatic situation, 18 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: but it's impacting the marriage anyway. When betrayal or trauna happens, 19 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: we can feel so helpless to know what to do. 20 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: Matthew and Joanna Rabsmith know that feeling very personally, and 21 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: they have taken their pain and turned it into purpose. 22 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: They've received years of specialized training and helping couples walk 23 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 1: through healing from trauma and betrayal, and today on I 24 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: Wish You Could Hear This, they will share their story 25 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: and the practical steps that will help any couple dealing 26 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: with these issues. As you can imagine, this will be 27 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: APG thirteen conversation, so be cautious with children who might overhear. 28 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 2: Matthew and Joanna, thanks so much for joining us on 29 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 2: I Wish You Could Hear This. Let me introduce y'all 30 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 2: to our listeners. Matthew and Joe are both professional coaches 31 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 2: and are also certified through a group called ABSATZ, which 32 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 2: is the Association of Partners of Sex Addicts Trauma Specialists. 33 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 2: Joanna is also a licensed marriage and Family therapist and 34 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 2: certified as a trauma therapist. Their mission is to help 35 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 2: couples navigate the complexities of relational challenges, particularly in the 36 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:27,559 Speaker 2: aftermath of sexual addiction and betrayal trauma. Matthew and Joanna, 37 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 2: thank you so much for being with us today. 38 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having us. We're excited to be 39 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 3: here now looking forward to the conversation. 40 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: So so grateful that you guys are willing. Now, Yeah, 41 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,519 Speaker 1: you guys have a lot of credentials behind your names. 42 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: But what's most important, and one of the reasons we 43 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: were interested in talking with you, is that you've actually 44 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: lived it as well, and you're now helping so many 45 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: couples find true intimacy. We're really looking forward to diving 46 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:00,359 Speaker 1: in to that. 47 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 4: But before we get into that, could you guys just 48 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 4: take a minute and tell us about where you live, 49 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 4: your family a bit more about what life is like 50 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 4: for you all these days. 51 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, we find ourselves very busy. We're in that we 52 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 5: call it in the thick of it. We've been married 53 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 5: sixteen years. We have three amazing kids. We have a 54 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 5: ten year old, an eight year old and a six 55 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 5: year old. 56 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 1: Oh, you really are in the thick of it. Yes, absolutely, yeah, 57 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: I know. 58 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 5: And we work together, we parent together, we live together, 59 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 5: we do we do so much together, and it's a 60 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 5: really We live in Memphis, Tennessee, and it's been a 61 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 5: really really fun journey the last few years getting to 62 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 5: see our work and our life really integrate into it together. 63 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 6: And so we have a lot of fun. But we 64 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 6: stay very really active. 65 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: I'm quite sure. And Memphis, man, that was home of 66 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: some of the best barbecue I've ever had. When we 67 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: had a speaking engagement in Memphis a few years back, 68 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: it was we actually. 69 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 2: Went and I'm gonna, I'm gonna everyone from Memphis is 70 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 2: gonna go, I can't believe you got this wrong? The 71 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 2: is it the Peabody hotelbody you got. 72 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 1: Well, that's Boston. Yeah, in Boston they call Peabody Pabody And. 73 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 2: We we we we waited in a big crowd to 74 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 2: watch the the ducks come down. 75 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 4: The walk through the lobby. 76 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 6: It's see ducks. 77 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 1: What could be better? And I mean this was also 78 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: this was quite a few years ago actually, because I 79 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: think we had the kids with us because they were 80 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 1: probably in that you know age group, like ten years old. 81 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 5: They watch. 82 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 1: They back in the day. Yes, Okay, to switch to 83 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 1: a totally different topic. 84 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 2: So we're going to be getting into discussions about sexual 85 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 2: addiction and betrayal trauma. So just so that we're on 86 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 2: the same page, what does how do you define those 87 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 2: two things? 88 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: Let's define them first before I start talking about them. 89 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 6: Yeah, right, I. 90 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 5: Think it's good to start with sexual addiction because it's 91 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 5: usually the root of the relational. 92 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 6: Kind of impact. 93 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 5: And you know, sexual addiction is one of those things 94 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,359 Speaker 5: where it's really interesting. There's there's some folks who have 95 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 5: kind of labeled it as a diagnosable addiction. 96 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 3: There's there's communities that. 97 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 6: Say it's not. 98 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 5: What we do know is that there are just a 99 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 5: huge portion of the population struggles with compulsive, problematic sexual behavior. 100 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 5: And that's what we really focus on is whenever I 101 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 5: am engaging in sexual behavior that really doesn't align with 102 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 5: my values, that go outside of who I want to 103 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 5: be and what I want to be, and I do 104 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,679 Speaker 5: that compulsively, meaning even though I want to stop, even 105 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 5: though I can see the damage it's doing to me 106 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 5: and to others, I still can continue in this behavior. 107 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 6: That's really what. 108 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,599 Speaker 5: Is at the heart of addiction, is that seeing the 109 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 5: damage done and yet continuing in the behavior. 110 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 6: And so that's really. 111 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 5: What we're talking about when we're talking about sexual addiction, 112 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 5: and with sexual addiction, because there are so many different 113 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 5: types of sexual behaviors, it can take a lot of 114 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 5: different forms, from online pornography to interactions with people over texting, 115 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 5: you know, online affairs, but also then physical interactions right 116 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 5: to really go to the kind of full gamut. And 117 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 5: so one of the things that I think is difficult 118 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 5: for people is is sexual addiction doesn't look one little 119 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 5: way right. It's not one simple thing, and it's one 120 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 5: of the ways that people often get caught is this 121 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 5: in this issue. Is they think, well, oh, I don't 122 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 5: do that right, I don't do this set of things right. 123 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 5: I haven't cossed a physical line with anyone, so I 124 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 5: must not have a problem. But they're just as entrenched 125 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 5: in this problematic behavior, which what happens is with sexual addiction, 126 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,919 Speaker 5: it's often a behavior that is really really hidden, you know, 127 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 5: more so than substance abuse, which is typically a little 128 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 5: bit more public. It's seen, right, people notice, right someone's 129 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 5: drinking or using substances. With sexual addiction, it is almost 130 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 5: completely hidden under the surface. 131 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: It's a great point. 132 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,239 Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's really what happens, and to the point 133 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 5: where no one even suspects or even imagines that it's 134 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 5: actually going on in their life. 135 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 6: And that's what. 136 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 5: Really does the damage and the rupture both to the 137 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 5: relationship but also to the spouse who really is kind 138 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 5: of living a life they didn't realize they were. 139 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 7: Experiencing yeah, and so that's where we kind of then 140 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 7: get to the partner side, who's experiencing betrayal trauma. Like 141 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 7: Matthew already shared a lot of those things, and most 142 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 7: relationships are hidden. 143 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 3: I don't know they're happening. 144 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 7: I don't know they're going on, and because of that, 145 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 7: I don't get choice over whether those things are present 146 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 7: in my life. 147 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 3: And in our relationship. 148 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 7: And for most people, those addictions, those things were there 149 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 7: before the relationship ever got started. 150 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 3: For most people who trundle with sexual addiction. 151 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 7: It started adolescents, even early childhood, the beginnings of that addiction, 152 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 7: even if it's growing over time. And so for most partners, 153 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 7: I got married under a false pretense. 154 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 3: I didn't know the full story. 155 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 7: I didn't know what I was getting into, and I 156 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 7: wasn't given that choice. And not only that, but so 157 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 7: much of what's going on again, I had no idea. 158 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 7: And so when it finally comes out, when there's some 159 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 7: honesty about oh this is going on, my entire world 160 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:46,559 Speaker 7: is shattered. 161 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 3: I thought our relationship was something that it's not. 162 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 7: And for most partners, they don't even get the full 163 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 7: truth right away. They fought and a lot of times 164 00:08:58,160 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 7: they stumble onto something. 165 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 3: They find something a computer tab that was left. 166 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,199 Speaker 7: Up, or a text message or right, and so all 167 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 7: of a sudden, this one thing that doesn't fit into 168 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 7: the structure of. 169 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,319 Speaker 3: The reality shatters the whole reality. 170 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 7: And so then it's this scramble of how big is this, 171 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 7: how deep does it go? 172 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 3: How long has it been there? 173 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 7: Kind of answering all of those questions, and so that's 174 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 7: what creates a lot of that trauma for that partner. 175 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 7: I don't know my own reality anymore. I don't know 176 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 7: who I am. I don't know this person who I'm 177 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 7: married to, and I don't know what this relationship is. 178 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 3: And so that's where that comes from. 179 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: I can see how we have a couple layers here, 180 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:51,359 Speaker 1: because you can have the sexual compulsion and the spouse 181 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: feel very betrayed, like you were just saying, like, this 182 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: is my reality. I had no idea that for the 183 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: last five years we had a marriage that was different 184 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: than I thought it was, you know, because this was 185 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: going on. But I could also see it because there's 186 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: many many other ways that that plays out where well, 187 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: you know, we got married, I knew that this was 188 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 1: an issue, and you know, and this person has been 189 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 1: working on it, and it's not always the husband, right, 190 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: Like like you have women who are addicted to erotica, right, 191 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: and you know that kind of thing. And so I knew, 192 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: you know, I knew that this was an issue that 193 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: they were working on. But it's not getting better. And 194 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: so maybe there's not the sense of trauma, but there's 195 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: the sense of the trail. And so I can see 196 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: how and I can I can see how things were, Like, 197 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: you know, somebody was really had victory and was free 198 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: for years, and then something goes wrong, they lose a 199 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: job or something happens with the kids or whatever, and 200 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: and suddenly that compulsion comes back up as a coping 201 00:10:54,920 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: mechanism and the person's feeling flabbergasted. So there's probably many 202 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: different patterns. So I would love to dive into yours, 203 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: if that's okay, because your pattern really was the betrayal 204 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: trauma pattern if I'm understanding correctly, Like three years into 205 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: your marriage, I think Joanna, you had confronted Matthew, and 206 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: matt you had confessed that you had had this hidden addiction. 207 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: Can you can you tell us that story and about 208 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: that journey, that transformational journey that began with that confrontation. 209 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 6: Like joy to mention this. 210 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 5: For me, this was something that had been a part 211 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 5: of my life for a really long time. You know, 212 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 5: I'm old enough to grow up on the MTV generation. 213 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 5: I remember when we had to call. 214 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 6: The cable company and ask for MTV. 215 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 5: But I also remember being a young child and being 216 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 5: exposed to a lot of very adult sexualized images, and 217 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,559 Speaker 5: I remember kind of not really understanding what I was seeing, 218 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 5: but understanding that it was alluring. It kind of drew 219 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 5: me in and that really began to shape how. 220 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 6: I understood sexuality. 221 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 5: And I can remember watching movies with my family and I, 222 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 5: you know, hands going over my eyes at certain scenes 223 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 5: and all of these things that really were confusing for 224 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 5: me because sex, you know, I grew up in a 225 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 5: Christian home, and you know. 226 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 6: Sex never got talked about. It was never mentioned. 227 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 5: It was the thing you're going to do one day, 228 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 5: but we don't talk about it until that very moment 229 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 5: that it happens. And so all of this education right 230 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 5: was kind of forming my understanding and I was recognizing 231 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 5: that it was something that felt good. There was a 232 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:41,959 Speaker 5: part of it that like felt good, but then there 233 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 5: was also a part that felt kind of shameful, like, well, wait, 234 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 5: hold on, we don't talk about this, we don't mention this, 235 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 5: we don't tell about it. And so as I as 236 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 5: I really hit my years of puberty and development, this 237 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:55,959 Speaker 5: really started just to kind of continue to ratchet up, 238 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 5: and I would either try to connect with females and 239 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 5: try to kind of build relationships and feel better about myself, 240 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 5: because what I didn't know at the time was it 241 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 5: was really being driven by my personal insecurities, these fears 242 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 5: of not being enough, these fears of really being alone. 243 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 5: We moved around a lot as a family, and so 244 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 5: I was often the new kid in school, and so 245 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 5: really creating connection was important for me. And sexual connection, right, 246 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 5: physical connection felt like the kind of connection that I 247 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 5: really wanted. But what I didn't realize was how empty 248 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 5: that feeling also was, and so I was constantly in 249 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 5: search for the next thing. And this really developed over years, 250 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 5: and so by the time Joanna and I got into 251 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 5: a relationship, I had really created two lives. I was 252 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 5: a pastor at the time, and I had this kind 253 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 5: of outward facing public life of a good kind of 254 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 5: moral person, and then I had this life in the 255 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 5: background that I hid from everybody that I kept is 256 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 5: this kind of secret? 257 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 6: And Joanna had asked she kind of brought up some questions. 258 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 6: She was wise enough. 259 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,839 Speaker 5: To know, like, hey, you're a guy, right, I know 260 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 5: that there's probably gonna be some things going on. Is 261 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 5: this an issue for you? And I had just said, 262 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,439 Speaker 5: you know, in the past, Yeah, it was a deal. 263 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 5: Not anymore, nothing to worry about. 264 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 3: You're fine. 265 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 7: And it's really weird early in relationship when you're wanting 266 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 7: to trust this person, right. 267 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 3: You're newly married. 268 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 7: You think like, yes, we both committed to this, right, 269 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 7: I'm wanting. 270 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 3: To trust him. So when I asked the question, he gives. 271 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 7: Me that answer, I'm left either trusting him and not 272 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 7: trusting my gut, or trusting my gut and then not 273 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 7: trusting him. 274 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: Oh that is a really hard place to be. 275 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, it. 276 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 3: Is, absolutely. 277 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 5: And what was hard was our relationship was really good 278 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 5: at the time, and like you said, you know, I 279 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 5: really wasn't using I wasn't really active in my addiction. 280 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 5: So I was really convinced that, hey, our relationship, our marriage, 281 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 5: our life will make it all go away and I'll 282 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 5: be And that actually lasted for a little bit. But 283 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 5: as as kind of the months were on in our relationship, 284 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 5: as things started to be difficult in our life, as 285 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 5: we started to face challenges, I went back to some 286 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 5: of those old coping behaviors, those old soothing techniques. 287 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 6: And I re engaged. 288 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 5: And the more I engaged, the more I hid, and 289 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 5: the more I hid, the more I had shame, and 290 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 5: the more I would engage, and that just got caught 291 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 5: in this pattern. And this really went on for years 292 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 5: in our relationship, and Joanna would try to come close, 293 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 5: she would kind of try to engage me, and I 294 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 5: would pull away and she wouldn't understand. She would be like, wait, 295 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 5: why don't what's wrong? And I would really want to 296 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 5: hide from her and say like and I would make 297 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 5: excuses like, oh, it's you stressful at church, or. 298 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 6: There's a lot on my mind right now. 299 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 5: But it was all this facade because I really didn't 300 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 5: want her to know what was going on with me 301 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 5: and just. 302 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: Felt such shame, I mean, you know, and knowing that. 303 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 2: It's it's interesting is I've heard to talk about this 304 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 2: and the compulsion and the shame factor is so significant. 305 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: And we've seen that in our research for sure twenty 306 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: five years. 307 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 2: What's interesting is that I'm trying to think of a 308 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 2: counterpart in other areas of my life where. 309 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 4: I feel the shame. 310 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 2: So let's just say that we did a research project 311 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 2: on money, and I could be a compulsive saver, but 312 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 2: I never felt shame about that. 313 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 4: I mean, and then I could. 314 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 2: Stomp on Chanty's dreams and things that you'd do, but 315 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 2: it never felt like, you know, I had something I 316 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 2: really had to deal with this one. I think the 317 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 2: person who's engaging in it almost just knows it's I'd 318 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 2: imagine you guys are the therapist. But i'd imagine it's 319 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 2: not particularly common for someone to go, no, I'm good 320 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 2: with this, and you know, she's just got her he's 321 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 2: just got to learn to live with it. 322 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: Well, that is common, I would say in some communities. 323 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: I mean, remember in some of the research where we 324 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: were interviewing because we I should explain that we've done 325 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: so much research on men and women and some of 326 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: these different things, and some of the random interviews and 327 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: coffee shops, and I can still remember talking to somebody 328 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,120 Speaker 1: in a Chick fil A of all places, and there 329 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: is a there was a at the time, an adult 330 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: bookstore across the street, and there was had been some 331 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 1: controversy about it, and we got into this conversation because 332 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 1: there was some you know, people standing around with like 333 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: picket signs and stuff, and and he he was like, 334 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: what's the problem, Like, of course, like, it's just me 335 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: and my wife, this is our thing. This is what 336 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 1: we do, and it's you know, it's healthy. It spices 337 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 1: things up. And I'm like, I am not going to 338 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: get into a debate with in public at Chick fil 339 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 1: a about how damaging this is. But there are people, there. 340 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 4: Are people, there are I think it's more. 341 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: I think that is more they are, and certainly in 342 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: the church, and certainly when you have the Holy Spirit, 343 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: like in you convicting. 344 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 7: You say, because a lot of people come in with 345 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 7: their own individual values and usually they've they've at least 346 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 7: made sure they. 347 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 3: Match up in those values. 348 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 7: Right, even if they don't have explicit conversations about it. 349 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 7: They get married with the understanding that we have shared values. 350 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 7: And in some ways it's it's because of the power 351 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 7: and balance. 352 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:37,400 Speaker 3: Right. 353 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 7: Yeah, if they came together and before they got married 354 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 7: they said pornography is fine, it should be on the table, 355 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 7: and they both agree to that, Like that's a different 356 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 7: relationship than where they both go. 357 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 3: No, this is toxic and unhealthy. 358 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: Great point, Great, let's. 359 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 3: Get married and move forward. And now someone secretly engaging 360 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 3: in that, yes or right, so that I think that 361 00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:58,640 Speaker 3: reds into it. 362 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 1: So I want to go to the sort of another 363 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:08,479 Speaker 1: level in this conversation because one of the things that 364 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 1: I'm curious and I don't actually know the answer to this, 365 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: so I'm a little nervous to ask you this, Joanna, 366 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: but because I don't actually know the whole story from 367 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,360 Speaker 1: front to back with you guys. But one of the 368 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: things that we have heard from many men who have 369 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: had this compulsion or addiction to pornography, who feel this 370 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 1: incredible shame. They do not want to be engaging, and 371 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:43,199 Speaker 1: it goes in cycles. Often. I've heard so many men 372 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: tell me either I can't talk to my wife about this, 373 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 1: like I can't even raise it because she would freak out, 374 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: and it's better just to keep it hidden and work 375 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: on it myself, which of course doesn't seem to ever 376 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 1: work particularly well. Or I tried to raise it with 377 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: my wife and she freaked out, so I'm never doing 378 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: that again. Or I finally had to raise this with 379 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,439 Speaker 1: my wife or she caught me or whatever, and I 380 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: had to be honest and either her compassion or her 381 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: willingness to walk alongside something she didn't really understand, not 382 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:29,439 Speaker 1: understanding that compulsion, that that approach seemed to have a 383 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 1: much better return than the freaking out approach. And I'm 384 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:40,719 Speaker 1: curious if that fits with your experience and your story, Like, Joanna, 385 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,479 Speaker 1: how did you receive that when he finally confessed. 386 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 6: Experience me, Yeah, it was. 387 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 5: It was crazy because kind of how it came about 388 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 5: was Joanna heard a testimony of a pastor. She's actually 389 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,959 Speaker 5: in her marriage and Family therapy first class in her 390 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 5: degree program to become a therapist. 391 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 6: This pastor came and gave his testimony about. 392 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 5: Sexual addiction, betrayal all in the restoration process both of 393 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 5: him kind of as a pastor, but also of their marriage. 394 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 7: And as he was talking, he was like listing the path, 395 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 7: the resources, everything he used to heal from this. And 396 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,679 Speaker 7: as he's talking, like I can just feel it in 397 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 7: my gut, I'm like, this is the thing that is 398 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 7: keeping us right because we both would say we want 399 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 7: connection and nmacy, but every time we'd move in, he 400 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 7: would get angry or pull away or withdraw or right, 401 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 7: And so I was like, what is going on here? 402 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 7: And I was like, oh, this this has to be 403 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 7: it and I finally have a road map for what we'll. 404 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,479 Speaker 3: Do if I asked the question and Matthew responds. 405 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 5: With yues so well, So she comes home and she 406 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 5: tells the story and I'm like, she's telling the story 407 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 5: and I'm. 408 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 6: Like, oh god, oh god, it's not like because I'm 409 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 6: like and I'm. 410 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 7: Trying to like crack the door open so he can 411 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 7: be responsible and be honest, you're not going through that. 412 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 5: I'm like, cool, Cool, let's get to lunch, right, and 413 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 5: she's like she finally stopped and she's like, I need 414 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 5: you to be honest, like are you going through this? 415 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 5: And the words yes, like came out of my mouth 416 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 5: and I just remember being like, oh god, it's over. 417 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 5: And I was because I had that idea that the 418 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 5: moment she finds this out, it will be over. My 419 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 5: life will be over. Everything I do will be over. Right, 420 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:28,919 Speaker 5: I will have to start everything again. 421 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 6: And she got real quiet and she. 422 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 5: Handed me the list and she said, here's your way, 423 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 5: here's your way forward. 424 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 8: All the notes I had taken in class, I was like, wow, 425 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 8: you know now we didn't talk for a couple of weeks, 426 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 8: Like it was very quiet in our household for a couple. 427 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 3: Like I didn't freak out, but I wasn't compassionate. 428 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 7: I was alternative and I had boundaries, and I said, 429 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 7: you are better than this and you will get your 430 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 7: life together. 431 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 3: Like that was probably more what I said. 432 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: And you can be compassionate and have boundaries the same time. 433 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 7: There's little compassion at that point, but our journey and. 434 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 9: I can see that too, but forward and yeah, And 435 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 9: I think a lot of guys will tell themselves the 436 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 9: lie that my partner won't be okay, they'll be angry, 437 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 9: they'll leave. 438 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 3: Me as a way to not step into that vulnerability, 439 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 3: because vulnerability is scary, it's risky. I don't want to 440 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,120 Speaker 3: do that. But it is amazing for so. 441 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 7: Many couples that we work with that partner is like 442 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 7: ready and willing to do the work more so than 443 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 7: the betrayer. Usually right, you would think it's the other 444 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,919 Speaker 7: way around, but it is amazing strength and compassion that 445 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 7: these betrayed spouses show up with going like this hurts, 446 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 7: but I don't want to give up on us. 447 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: I love that I can I just interrupt for a second. 448 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 1: I want to just press in on that for a second, 449 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,400 Speaker 1: because if you are listening to this and you know 450 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 1: that this is an issue in your life and you 451 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:07,360 Speaker 1: have been hiding something, don't it is true. We we 452 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: will make excuses to ourselves to avoid being vulnerable by saying, 453 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: my spouse is gonna leave me, or they're gonna freak 454 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,679 Speaker 1: out or and okay, maybe there are going to be 455 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:27,360 Speaker 1: some hard, you know, situations, but it's probably bigger then 456 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 1: you're you're building it up in your mind to be 457 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: bigger as an excuse to avoid dealing with it. 458 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 2: And and I gotta tell you, I mean, as I'm 459 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 2: listening to this and looking back over my own life, 460 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 2: you know, as a kid, you know, being exposed to 461 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 2: the neighbor's magazine stack of magazines and struggling you know, 462 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 2: through that, through through my our early years, there is, 463 00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:00,959 Speaker 2: at least in my case, there was always this hope 464 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 2: still that I'm gonna find I'm gonna unlock this at 465 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 2: some point it's gonna That's so I don't need to 466 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 2: bring it to Shanty and tell. 467 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 1: Her because I'm I'm gonna figure out. 468 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 4: I kept working at. 469 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 2: I mean, it's kind of like when I go to 470 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 2: the to the store and buy a pair of pants. 471 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 2: I know that they're fitting tight, but I am going 472 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 2: to lose the weight and these are gonna look awesome. 473 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 2: And I can't tell you how many pairs of pants 474 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 2: are still hanging in my closet because alas, I haven't 475 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 2: yet found. 476 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 4: The key to unlock on that one. 477 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 2: So not to make light of this, though, but but 478 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 2: I do find that that was the story I was 479 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 2: telling myself, and. 480 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,959 Speaker 7: I really really and that shame cycle we talked about earlier, Right, 481 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 7: my shame tells me don't tell anyone. But I can't 482 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 7: get rid of my shame without being open and honest 483 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 7: and actually telling someone. Renee Brown has done so much 484 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 7: research on vulnerability and that actually talking and sharing my story, 485 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 7: being honest is what lowers my shame and will help 486 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 7: me break out of that addiction. 487 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can totally see that, And I'm so sorry, Matthew. 488 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: You had started to say something and I interrupted you. 489 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember what you were going 490 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 1: to see. 491 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 6: Well, no, I was gonna say, like I exactly what 492 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 6: John said. 493 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 5: Don't think we'll be saying most of these concepts are 494 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 5: stuck in our brains, right. 495 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 6: My belief was that everyone would leave me. 496 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 5: My belief was that all of the relationships that I 497 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 5: had built over my life, no one would understand. 498 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 7: And you know, I. 499 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 5: Became a part of a twelve step recovery group for 500 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 5: sex addicts, and we used to always joke about like 501 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 5: you can tell someone you're in you know AA, and 502 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 5: they'll be like, hey, congratulations, way to go. Right. You 503 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 5: tell them you're an essay, right, You're you're a sex 504 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 5: addict in recovery, and they'll the fear is always they're 505 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 5: going to go, oh, oh, okay, like good luck with that. 506 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 5: But what's really interesting is that's. 507 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 6: Not what happened to me. 508 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,919 Speaker 5: As as I shared with Joanna, as I started to 509 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 5: share with more and more people, specific. 510 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 6: With men, early on in the journey, I. 511 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 5: Felt incredible levels of acceptance and compassion and grace. And 512 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 5: that is really really key, and it does matter, and 513 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 5: it is there. And I think the world and our 514 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 5: enemy has created such a perspective that that this is 515 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 5: a death sentence for anyone to know. And I tell 516 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 5: people all the time, like I did not want to 517 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 5: be the guy who goes on podcasts or goes you know, 518 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 5: around the world tell me about my you know, former 519 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 5: sexual addiction. 520 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 6: It wasn't the life plan, but I love my life right. 521 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,479 Speaker 5: This life that I get to live in openness and 522 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,679 Speaker 5: freedom is so much better because it's what has allowed 523 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 5: God to get in and to do the healing. 524 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 6: Work that I was so desperate to have. 525 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 5: I remember about a month or two months before this 526 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 5: moment where Joanna had this testimony given to her and 527 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 5: passed on to me. I like, one night I was 528 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,959 Speaker 5: in our apartment. I was praying to God and I 529 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 5: was like, God, I can't do this anymore more. I 530 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 5: hate this. I know it's killing me. I know it's 531 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 5: killing us, but I don't know the way forward. If 532 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 5: you would just give me a path, if you would 533 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 5: just show me the steps to follow, I'll take it God. 534 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 5: And then here comes this list and it was like 535 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,880 Speaker 5: and I was a little frustrated, Like I was like, okay, God, 536 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 5: I didn't mean like an actual list. 537 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 6: I meant like a formal list. And one day, you know, 538 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 6: but it was. 539 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 5: Like it was this door that unlocked for me, and 540 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 5: it has been the path that I continue to walk 541 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 5: down of really opening myself and trusting him, and it's 542 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 5: what has allowed us to experience the relationship we deserve. 543 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 5: The tragic thing is that when we hide in shame, 544 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 5: we prevent ourselves from ever being accepted. I really was 545 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 5: preventing the experience of being loved, and I didn't know that. 546 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 5: I thought I was keeping love intact, but I was 547 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 5: actually keeping it from myself and so being vulnerable naming 548 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 5: the things that I'm struggling with has actually allowed me 549 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,479 Speaker 5: to feel loved for the first time really in my 550 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 5: life fully completely. It's that idea of kind of that 551 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 5: naked and unashamed right that I am really accepting of 552 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 5: who I am and letting others accept me. 553 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: Wow, that is fantastic. That is fantastic. I instinctively I 554 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: want to turn this into two episodes. I want to 555 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: take the time to go through what is it that 556 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: you did? I want to know it was on that list. 557 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: I want to go. I want to go through what 558 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: is it that you did and what have you seen 559 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: over the years as in your practice, as you have 560 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: walked this road with many many other couples and have 561 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: seen what works and what doesn't work. So I want 562 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: to do part two. But before we get there, Matthew 563 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 1: and Joanna tell us how people can find you. We'll 564 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: put that in the show notes. 565 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 5: Absolutely easiest way to find us is on our website 566 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 5: www dot Rabsmith team dot com. 567 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: Now Rabsmith is two a's it is our. 568 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 5: AaB AaB right s M I T hteam dot com. 569 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 6: There's a ton of resources. 570 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 5: We have assessments that couples can take free, resources that 571 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 5: we love to get away, and you can also kind 572 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,479 Speaker 5: of find about all the different ways we support couples 573 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 5: with our practice. 574 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: That's awesome, all right, Well, come back for part two. 575 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to I wish you could hear this. 576 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: Remember to subscribe to our podcast, and as always, forward 577 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: today's audio or video link to a friend, counselor, or 578 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: pastor who would be encouraged. I just want to take 579 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: a second to thank the team at Life Audio for 580 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: their partnership with us on the podcast. If you go 581 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: to lifeaudio dot com, you will find dozens of other 582 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, 583 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: Bible study, parenting, and more.