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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Build Different is a production of the American Association of

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Speaker 2: Christian Counselors. To support this podcast and learn how you

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Speaker 2: can help us to promote all our biblical content, spread

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Speaker 2: the Gospel, and provide mental health resources and training to

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Speaker 2: people everywhere, just go to aaccfoundation dot org. Again, that's

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Speaker 2: Aaccfoundation dot org. Welcome to Built Different. I'm Zach Clinton,

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Speaker 2: your host, and each week I come to you exclusively

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Speaker 2: on the Life Audio podcast Network.

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Speaker 1: I'm proud to partner with Life.

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Speaker 2: Audio and bring you entertaining, life changing, family friendly podcasts

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Speaker 2: for a new generation.

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Speaker 1: I Built Different.

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Speaker 2: Our mission is to provide encouragement, hope and challenge to

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Speaker 2: help push you past your limits and.

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Speaker 1: Reach goals you never thought possible.

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Speaker 2: Colossians two, verse six says, So, then, just as you

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Speaker 2: received Christ Jesus's Lord, continue to live your lives in Him,

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Speaker 2: rooted and built up in him.

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Speaker 1: Amen. Now let's roll.

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Speaker 2: Hello everybody, and welcome back into the Build Different Podcasts.

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Speaker 2: As always, I'll be your host today, doctor Zach Clinton.

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Speaker 2: In Today, I'm excited to be joined by someone I

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Speaker 2: followed it admired for quite some time, and I can't

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Speaker 2: wait to share his message with you today.

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Speaker 1: His name is doctor Lee Warren.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Warren has spent more than twenty five years as

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Speaker 2: a neurosurgeon, operating on the brain and helping people through

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Speaker 2: some of the most critical moments of their lives. But

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Speaker 2: some of his most meaningful work has come outside of

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Speaker 2: the operating room. As an Iraq war veteran and trauma survivor,

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Speaker 2: both during combat and in his personal life, Doctor Warren

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Speaker 2: knows firsthand what it's like to face pain, grief, and

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Speaker 2: unanswered questions. Through these experiences, he discovered that the way

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Speaker 2: we can actually change the way that we live is

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Speaker 2: actually changing the way that we think. Today, we're talking

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Speaker 2: about his new book, The Life Changing Art of Self

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Speaker 2: Brain Surgery. It brings together science and faith to help

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Speaker 2: people build resilience and transform their lives. I think it's

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Speaker 2: going to encourage a lot of people listening to and

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Speaker 2: for some it might just change the way they think,

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Speaker 2: feel and live for the better. Doctor Warren, my friend,

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Speaker 2: it's a privilege having you on the show. Thank you

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Speaker 2: so much for joining.

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Speaker 3: Me today, Zach, GE's an honor to be with you. Thanks.

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Speaker 3: I've been watching you for a while and I'm really

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Speaker 3: grateful to have this conversation today.

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Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate that, sir. Again, I really look forward

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Speaker 2: to it. You know, as of this recording, though, I

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Speaker 2: was just thinking up in my office. It's May first,

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Speaker 2: it's Mental health Awareness month, and you know this, doctor Warren.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot going on in the mental health space.

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Speaker 2: And yes, we placed a lot of an emphasis on

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Speaker 2: the disorders and the illnesses, but it's for rightful reasons.

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Speaker 2: We want to continue to raise awareness around the issues.

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Speaker 2: We've seen sparks. We've seen surges, unfortunately in an uptick

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Speaker 2: in the stats of anxiety and depression, addiction, loneliness, even suicidality.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you just see it all over. It's almost

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Speaker 2: like mental health and brain health are the buzzwords of

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Speaker 2: our day, and age trauma is a buzzword. It's all

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Speaker 2: over the place. I'm just interested as you serve on

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Speaker 2: the front lines, quite literally, just being able to help

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Speaker 2: with this brain health and mental health revolution. Sir, what

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Speaker 2: would you say you're seeing, what are you hearing, and

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Speaker 2: what really concerns you in this hour?

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Speaker 3: Oh that's a great question, and you're right. I mean,

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Speaker 3: we have more resources available than we ever had before. Right,

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Speaker 3: less stigma attached to the idea that I need to

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Speaker 3: work on my mental health. All that stuff is common now,

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Speaker 3: everybody's talking about it, and there's more resources and techniques

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Speaker 3: and therapies and medications available than ever before. But all

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Speaker 3: the statistics are getting worse. So, as you said, depression, anxiety, suicide, attempts,

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Speaker 3: completed suicides, alcoholism, substance abuse, all of it's getting worse

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Speaker 3: across the board, even among Christians. Right, So, I think

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Speaker 3: that the diagnosis that we're making must not be the

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Speaker 3: right diagnosis in terms of what's really the underlying issue

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Speaker 3: here and the strategy that we're employing. And I say we,

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Speaker 3: meaning just across the board, with this whole problem must

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Speaker 3: not be all the right things or the problem with

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Speaker 3: all this availability of resources and providers and everything else,

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Speaker 3: should be getting better and worse. Right So, I think,

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Speaker 3: having been studying this for twenty five years plus, and

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Speaker 3: let me just say too, as a short a side,

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Speaker 3: don't hear me, listener, especially, don't hear me coming at

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Speaker 3: this from some expert position. I'm also coming at it

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Speaker 3: from a guy who went to war, had PTSD, had

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Speaker 3: significant personal trauma in my first marriage, and lost a child.

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Speaker 3: So I'm sure we'll talk about that later. So the

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Speaker 3: things that I'm going to discuss as prescriptive are because

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Speaker 3: I figured out what works for me and my family

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Speaker 3: as we were trying to recover from these things. So

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Speaker 3: not from an expert position, its solely, but from a

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Speaker 3: fellow traveler in this fellow sufferer, if you will. And

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Speaker 3: so I think that I think that the fundamental issue

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Speaker 3: relates to societally. For the last fifty to seventy years

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Speaker 3: since we figured out what DNA was, it was nineteen

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Speaker 3: fifty four, there's been this prevailing idea in society that

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Speaker 3: your genetics, largely your genes, that you inherit largely determine

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Speaker 3: how your life plays out. Like everybody's kind of got

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Speaker 3: this idea. Get the wrong set of genes, the wrong

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Speaker 3: set of parents, raised in the wrong house, go through

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Speaker 3: the wrong stuff, have the wrong adverse childhood experience, has

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Speaker 3: experienced the wrong kind of traumas that my brain formed

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Speaker 3: in the way it is is going to get messed

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Speaker 3: up in some ways, and that's going to turn me

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Speaker 3: into somebody that doesn't feel very good, or can't process

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Speaker 3: very well, or has certain issues. And so we've been

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Speaker 3: kind of taught that what we go through turns us

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Speaker 3: into who we are. But real neuroscience research, especially since

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Speaker 3: the twenty first century, the last twenty five twenty six years,

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Speaker 3: when we've been able to do what we call functional

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Speaker 3: brain imaging, where we can look and see what's happening

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Speaker 3: in your brain when you're thinking certain things and all that,

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Speaker 3: it's crystal clear now it's not controversial anymore that it's

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Speaker 3: not actually the things we go through that turn our

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Speaker 3: brains into what they are. It's the things we think about.

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Speaker 3: It's the way we process those things. It's the responses

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Speaker 3: and choices that we make in them. And so there's

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Speaker 3: this old equip that somebody said, I don't know who

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Speaker 3: first said it. Somebody said, we're born looking like our parents,

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Speaker 3: but we die looking like our decisions. And that turns

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Speaker 3: out to be true. It's not actually your genes that

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Speaker 3: you inherit. We know now that only something like two

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Speaker 3: percent of human illness is actually directly related to a

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Speaker 3: particular gene that you inherit. The rest of it has

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Speaker 3: to do with whether the genes are switched on and

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Speaker 3: switched off, and the choices and decisions that we make

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Speaker 3: in response to what happens to us in our lives.

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Speaker 3: So I think the diagnosis is incorrect, that it's a

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Speaker 3: brain issue solely that creates behavioral and mental health issues,

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Speaker 3: and that the treatment for that then is to solely

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Speaker 3: focus on things that make the brain do something different

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Speaker 3: or have a different chemical environment or whatever. So I

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Speaker 3: think what we've learned from neuroscience really lines up really

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Speaker 3: well with scripture in the twenty first century, which is

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Speaker 3: that your brain actually is not ever fixed from moment

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Speaker 3: to moment, It constantly changes. There's this fascinating thing called

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Speaker 3: neuroplasticity that God gave us. It's basically, your brain is

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Speaker 3: constantly changing the way it sells are connected to one

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Speaker 3: another through these things called synapa is like the little

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Speaker 3: plugs that you've been joined to extension cores, right, And

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Speaker 3: that those synaptic changes happen in accordance to repeated thought

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Speaker 3: and directed attention. And so it's actually never been true

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Speaker 3: that you're stuck the way you are, or that the

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Speaker 3: way you feel is the driver of what you have

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Speaker 3: to do. It's only ever been true in the sense

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Speaker 3: that the more you think about something from a particular perspective,

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Speaker 3: the more your brain hardwires that as to make you

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Speaker 3: start to think that's just who you are, and so

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Speaker 3: the unwinding of it turns out to be learning how

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Speaker 3: to think about the things you go through in a

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Speaker 3: different way. So that's the big high level thought based

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Speaker 3: on the question you.

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Speaker 2: Ask me, absolutely this idea of reframing, and I think

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Speaker 2: what I love so much about what you're already beginning

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Speaker 2: to unpack for us is that the brain in the mind,

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Speaker 2: Yes they're connected, but they're separate from one another. They

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Speaker 2: influence each other, but they're individual of each other as well.

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Speaker 2: And so something that you place a heavy emphasis on

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Speaker 2: in this book and just in your work is the

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Speaker 2: idea and the power of our thoughts. Something I think

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Speaker 2: it's actually the tenth commandment that you mentioned in this

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Speaker 2: book of self brain surgery, is the understanding that thoughts

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Speaker 2: become things. The old saying, what you see in your

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Speaker 2: mind you can hold in your hand right. What we

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Speaker 2: meditate on we begin to magnify in our lives. And

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Speaker 2: this idea of man if we can actually begin to

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Speaker 2: take every thought captive, as two Corinthians ten to five

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Speaker 2: talks about, I think we talk about that in the

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Speaker 2: church a lot, and we talk about the renewing of

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Speaker 2: our minds. But a lot of people, Doctor Warren, don't

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Speaker 2: quite understand what that means. We're gonna get down to

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Speaker 2: the practicality of it here in just a moment, but

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Speaker 2: I do want to ask, when it comes down to

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Speaker 2: our thoughts in different things such as this, a lot

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Speaker 2: of people they're gonna stay up front, you know, Dr Warren.

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Speaker 2: I'm in the face of grave danger, I'm in the

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Speaker 2: midst of trauma, I'm in the midst of suffering. I'm

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Speaker 2: in the midst of depression, Like I find myself in

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Speaker 2: that pit today, and you know, it sounds good to

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Speaker 2: just think about different things, but they have developed this

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Speaker 2: mental rutting to the point where the story that they

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Speaker 2: have created, that they've almost carved out in their mind

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Speaker 2: is so strong right now that they don't see a brighter,

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Speaker 2: better tomorrow. What would you say to a person just

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Speaker 2: upfront today that finds themselves so stuck, why are they there?

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Speaker 2: And what might begin to happen if they began to

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Speaker 2: change the way that they thought.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question, because there are certain things

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Speaker 3: that we get stuck in, and in fact that you

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Speaker 3: can image somebody's brain and something like complex grief or

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Speaker 3: complex PTSD, where the antio singular cortex of your brain,

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Speaker 3: for example, really goes offline and gets super underactive, right,

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Speaker 3: And that's the part of the brain is responsible for

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Speaker 3: switching from one emotional state to another, and it's responsible

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Speaker 3: for willpower and drive and all those kinds of things.

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Speaker 3: So when you say I really feel stuck, it's because

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Speaker 3: your brain is sort of stuck. But what we know

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Speaker 3: now is that the most powerful driver of getting that

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Speaker 3: part of your brain unstuck is cognitive. It's starting to

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Speaker 3: think about the problem in a different way. So there's

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Speaker 3: really good re search from somebody named Mary Francis O'Connor

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Speaker 3: who writes from the University of Arizona, and she wrote

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Speaker 3: a really great book called The Grieving Brain, and she

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Speaker 3: looked at people who lost somebody and they never got

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Speaker 3: over it. They just got stuck in complex grief and

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Speaker 3: followed them for many years and she imaged all them

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Speaker 3: and their inter singular courtesies were really shut down. And that,

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Speaker 3: combined with some other research related to willpower, has taught

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Speaker 3: us that if you are stuck in some emotional statement, depression, grief, anxiety,

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Speaker 3: whatever it might be, and you don't feel like you

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Speaker 3: can move forward from it. Nothing that actually helps starts

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Speaker 3: to help until you begin to decide that you're going

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Speaker 3: to try to operate your brain in a different way,

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Speaker 3: that you're going to try to do something about it.

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Speaker 3: You have to first make a mental decision that I'm

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Speaker 3: going to try to overcome that I'm going to try

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Speaker 3: to take a step to do something, and then the

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Speaker 3: singular works in this way like they found it if

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Speaker 3: you can make yourself do something that seemed undesirable or

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Speaker 3: hard to you. And a good example is after I

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Speaker 3: lost my son, my nineteen year old sun Mitch was

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Speaker 3: stabbed to death in twenty thirteen, and his best friend

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Speaker 3: too and they never saw the crime. Like, so we

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Speaker 3: had this terrible loss. We didn't understand what happens. We

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Speaker 3: have no possibility of finding out what happened, and so

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Speaker 3: we were really I mean grieving like I'm feeling you

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Speaker 3: if you're in that, because I've been there and what

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Speaker 3: we found is and it lines up with the research.

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Speaker 3: If I could get to that place where I wake

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Speaker 3: up in the morning and everything in me said, I'm

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Speaker 3: going back to sleep. I am not getting out of

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Speaker 3: bed today. I'm just going to stay right here. But

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Speaker 3: if I could make myself get out of bed anyway

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Speaker 3: and just move to another room, I would feel a

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Speaker 3: little bit better. Now we know it's because that any

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Speaker 3: sort of directed movement, intentional movement, releases dopamine and your

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Speaker 3: brain makes you feel a little bit better transiently. It's

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Speaker 3: your brain's reward mechanism trying to motivate you to perpetuate

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Speaker 3: that activity. And we know now that any sort of

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Speaker 3: movement against resistance activates the singular cortex a little bit.

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Speaker 3: And then because of this thing called Hebb's law, which

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Speaker 3: is the famous neuropsychologist Donald Hebb who came up with

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Speaker 3: the neurons that fired together, wire together idea that everybody

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Speaker 3: talks about on Instagram all the time. What Hebb's law

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Speaker 3: really is is called this is a nerdy thing. I'm

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Speaker 3: going to say, coincidence based synaptic plasticity. What does that mean.

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Speaker 3: Synapses are plastic, they're not fixed. The connections between your

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Speaker 3: neurons are malleable. They're changeable, and the way they change

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Speaker 3: primarily is based on when two things happen over and over,

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Speaker 3: Like if you decide and you think something, and then

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Speaker 3: you take a particular action in response to that thought.

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Speaker 3: Your synapses are listening and they're changing in real time,

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Speaker 3: and they begin to make more of themselves. So in

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Speaker 3: real time, even though you don't feel it immediately, your

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Speaker 3: brain begins to structurally remodel itself in physical ways. So

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Speaker 3: it's not some metaphor some self help sort of idea,

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Speaker 3: it's real structural stuff in your brain mechanism. And so

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Speaker 3: your brain starts to automate this idea that, Okay, you

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Speaker 3: made me do something I didn't want to do, and

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Speaker 3: in case you do that again, I'm going to lay

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Speaker 3: down some extra synapses so the next time it'll be

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Speaker 3: a little easier. And then what they find in the

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Speaker 3: research is that doing something hard when you don't want

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Speaker 3: to makes it easier to do another hard thing that

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Speaker 3: you don't want to do, even a different hard thing.

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Speaker 3: And so then all of a sudden, your brain starts saying, Okay,

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Speaker 3: you're giving me this message that it doesn't matter how

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Speaker 3: I feel, You're going to make me move anyway, so

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Speaker 3: I'm going to make it easier to make that happen.

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Speaker 3: And then what O'Connor found is that this willpower switch

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Speaker 3: sort of thing activates the singular in the areas that

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Speaker 3: are still related to grief and trauma. So they start

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Speaker 3: getting better too, just to sort of passive innocent bystanders,

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Speaker 3: but that part of the brain is getting activated, and

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Speaker 3: so then they start feeling better. And so then it's

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Speaker 3: interesting because there's this passage in Romans chapter five three

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Speaker 3: through five that talks about suffering, and all of us

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Speaker 3: in society right now think that our job, especially as parents,

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Speaker 3: is to sort of protect everybody against any sort of suffering,

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Speaker 3: because suffering can break you a messue up in some way.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: But what Romans five say is suffering produces endurance, right,

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Speaker 3: and we see the singular gyrus, like when you're grieving

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Speaker 3: and you make yourself move, your brain gets more durable

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Speaker 3: and it becomes easier for it to move against resistance.

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Speaker 3: And so the Bible says, hey, suffering produces endurance, and

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Speaker 3: endurance produces character. And then what we see psychologically in

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Speaker 3: these people is that they start to say, hey, you

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Speaker 3: know what, I didn't think I could get out of bed,

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Speaker 3: but I did get out of bed, so maybe I

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Speaker 3: could also put my pants on, and maybe I could

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Speaker 3: also go back to work to maybe I could also

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Speaker 3: not drink tonight, And they start developing this sort of

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Speaker 3: character of being the kind of people who can move

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Speaker 3: against resistance, who can do this hard thing, you can

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Speaker 3: switch out of this emotional state when it didn't seem

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Speaker 3: possible before. And then the Bible says and character produces hope.

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Speaker 3: And so the psychologist guys like you, like really smart people, say,

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Speaker 3: what is hope. Hope is the ability to believe that

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Speaker 3: you can get there from here, and it requires agency, right,

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Speaker 3: this belief that there's something that can be done about

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Speaker 3: the problem, agency and opportunities, so I can actually do

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Speaker 3: that thing. And so you see this sequence playing out

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Speaker 3: Zach in the brain of suffering getting you more robust

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Speaker 3: and stronger and becoming the kind of person who can

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Speaker 3: do that, and then that makes you hopeful that the

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Speaker 3: next time you face something hard, you'll be able to

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Speaker 3: get through it, which is exactly what the Bible said.

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Speaker 3: That's the mechanism of how you generate hope in your brain.

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Speaker 3: You make yourself do some little thing that you don't

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Speaker 3: feel like doing, and you'll start feeling better, and then

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Speaker 3: that'll start proving to you that it's possible that you

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Speaker 3: can take an action that will result in you feeling better.

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Speaker 3: And so even if you need professional help, even if

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Speaker 3: you need medication, even if you need some outside thing,

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Speaker 3: that the actual engine of that change is in you

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Speaker 3: and starts when you decide that you're tired of it

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Speaker 3: being the way it is and you're ready for it

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Speaker 3: to be something different than that, and your brain is

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Speaker 3: hardwired and designed to support you in that process, that

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Speaker 3: movement from suffering towards hope. And the final thing i'll

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Speaker 3: say there, I'm sorry, it's a long winded answer, love

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Speaker 3: it a thing to unpack. The final thing I'll say

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Speaker 3: there is that we have this inherent belief that, especially

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Speaker 3: in our culture right now, that we're easily broken, and

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Speaker 3: that the protection from that is to avoid anything that

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Speaker 3: might hurt us. So we look for safe spaces and

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Speaker 3: avoidance of difficulty. We don't want to sit by people

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Speaker 3: that we don't like, and we don't want to talk

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Speaker 3: to people who vote differently than we do, and all

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Speaker 3: that stuff. But it turns out that the human brain

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Speaker 3: is not actually fragile. It's something that the psychologist Don

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Speaker 3: the writer Nicholas Tuleeb wrote and he called it anti fragile. Look,

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Speaker 3: we're actually designed to be able to get strong only

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Speaker 3: when we have been previously broken, Like you can't be

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Speaker 3: as strong as you're supposed to be unless you have

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Speaker 3: suffered some. And that's in line again with scripture, like

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Speaker 3: suffering gets us to hope. You can't really get to

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Speaker 3: hope unless you've suffered some, because if you haven't, then

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Speaker 3: you don't really know that what you're hoping for is

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Speaker 3: possible for you.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to stop this right there and jump in

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Speaker 2: to say, you're listening to build Different I'm Zach Clinton.

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Speaker 2: We need to break for a brief message from our sponsors.

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Speaker 2: I'll be back with our guests to keep the conversation

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Speaker 2: flowing right after this. You're listening to Life Audio.

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Speaker 1: Lee.

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Speaker 2: What I appreciate about what you're saying is I've done

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Speaker 2: a lot of research, even in my doctoral dissertation and thesis,

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Speaker 2: this idea of resilience, and really it's what you just

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Speaker 2: touched on it. There's no concrete definition. Everybody would probably

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Speaker 2: give me a different one, but the common theme across

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Speaker 2: all the academic literature a posts. What I really see

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Speaker 2: in scripture is it's positive adaptation in the presence of adversity.

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Speaker 2: It's the idea that when these inevitable challenges come being

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Speaker 2: able to choose to do the hard thing, and sometimes

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Speaker 2: it's just committing to one small act that can compound

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Speaker 2: over time. And then as we do that daily, right,

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Speaker 2: what we do repeatedly or consistently is what begins to

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Speaker 2: exude out of our lives. And I think that's what

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Speaker 2: you've been able to really summarize so well for us,

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Speaker 2: not just at like a heavy level that goes over

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Speaker 2: our heads, but something that we can all digest and

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Speaker 2: begin to unders stand and then implement in our lives.

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Speaker 2: And as you've already alluded to a couple of times, Lee,

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Speaker 2: I know that this message is very personal to you.

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Speaker 2: You talked about being a surgeon in the Iraqi War,

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Speaker 2: you talked about coming home with PTSD, you talked about

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Speaker 2: the horrific grief that I can't even imagine experiencing as

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Speaker 2: a father after losing your son. And I'm just wondering

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Speaker 2: here for a moment, if we were to pull back

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Speaker 2: the curtain on doctor Lee Warren's wife, on his life,

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Speaker 2: I'm just thinking, what exactly, sir, did that do? Did

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Speaker 2: those experiences do to your own mental health but also

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Speaker 2: to your faith? How did those things begin to make

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Speaker 2: you maybe really dive deep and understand that it's in

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Speaker 2: our moments of powerlessness that God really begins to reveal

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Speaker 2: the character of his heart the most. What did those

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Speaker 2: moments do to you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting. So I was raised by Bible believing

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Speaker 3: parents and always taught. My parents did this great job

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Speaker 3: of telling us that whatever troubles came along, the answer

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Speaker 3: was going to be in the words. So they always

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Speaker 3: pointed us to scripture, like, go find scripture. But I

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Speaker 3: was also this kid that was interested in science, right,

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Speaker 3: So I was I was interested in science and interested

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Speaker 3: in faith, and raised in a denomination that was really

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Speaker 3: on the on the work hard and God will protect

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Speaker 3: you if you do good stuff kind of side the

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Speaker 3: legalistic side of the of the house, and and so

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Speaker 3: I had this sort of belief system that said God

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Speaker 3: will sort of do the right thing by me as

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Speaker 3: long as I do the right stuff and work hard

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Speaker 3: enough and all that. So I had this sort of

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Speaker 3: transactional kind of faith when I was younger. But then

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Speaker 3: I grew up and I went off to college and

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Speaker 3: went off to medical school and went off to brain

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Speaker 3: surgery school and became an eurosurgeon and all that stuff.

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Speaker 3: And as you said, I went to a medical school

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Speaker 3: and scholarship from the Air Force, and so the taxpayers

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Speaker 3: paid for my diploma. Thank you for that, and and

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Speaker 3: so appreciate it. But but I went off to war,

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Speaker 3: and I said, I, you know, I had a difficult

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Speaker 3: first marriage. It was it was really crumbling around the

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Speaker 3: same time that I got deployed. So I was like

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Speaker 3: literally in a war at home and then in a

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Speaker 3: war in real war where I was getting shot at.

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Speaker 3: And I had this experience to rat Zach, where I

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Speaker 3: was outside one day. I was walking from the hospital

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Speaker 3: to there's a little store called the BX where you

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Speaker 3: can go get shampoo and you know, potato chips and stuff.

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Speaker 3: And I'm walking across the base and we had a

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Speaker 3: mortar attack and I was just in this exposed place

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Speaker 3: where there was no no building I could go, and

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Speaker 3: no bunker around it. It was just this little concrete barrier.

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Speaker 3: So I just went over and kind of made myself

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Speaker 3: really small up against this concrete wall. And it might

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Speaker 3: surprise you to learn that neurosurgeons are sort of control freak.

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Speaker 3: So I could be one to control everything, and so

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Speaker 3: I'd always been real hands on, like I'm going to

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Speaker 3: control my life, and I'm gonna work hard and do

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Speaker 3: the right stuff, and I'm gonna be in charge of

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Speaker 3: the operating room and be in charge of my home

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Speaker 3: and all that stuff. And here I'm getting more to this.

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Speaker 3: There's explosions happening all around the base and rockets going

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Speaker 3: off and stuff, and I'm exposed. I have nothing I

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Speaker 3: can do to make it okay. Like it's just I'm

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Speaker 3: gonna get blown up or I'm not and I can't

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Speaker 3: control it. And so for the first time in my life,

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Speaker 3: I like literally had to say to guy, I'm I'm

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Speaker 3: depending on you here, like I can't fix it. You

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Speaker 3: got to do this. You got to get me out

434
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:06,520
Speaker 3: of this. And I released this sense that there was

435
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,320
Speaker 3: something that I had to be responsible for to be okay.

436
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,040
Speaker 3: And God, I think I was such a hard headed

437
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,119
Speaker 3: guy that he needed to put me in that literal

438
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:18,359
Speaker 3: bombing to sort of make me see that. But I

439
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,360
Speaker 3: released that control since but then when I got home

440
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 3: from the war, I was really struggling with flashbacks and

441
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,639
Speaker 3: panic attacks and different things like that. And I think

442
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 3: it's because I wrote the wrong prescription for myself. I

443
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:31,640
Speaker 3: didn't talk about any of the stuff I went through

444
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,960
Speaker 3: and I put all my stuff, my uniforms and mementos

445
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:36,440
Speaker 3: and all that in a trunk and put them in

446
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,199
Speaker 3: the garage. I didn't talk to Lisa, I didn't talk

447
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 3: to anybody about what was going on. And so I

448
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,159
Speaker 3: went several years and went through all this stuff that

449
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,360
Speaker 3: happened at home, ended up getting remarried, blended our families,

450
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,879
Speaker 3: went several years as a businessman, started a practice and

451
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 3: was chugging along doing fine. And then in twenty ten,

452
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:01,160
Speaker 3: so five years after I got home, had we watched

453
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,440
Speaker 3: television one night and it was a story about the

454
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,920
Speaker 3: Iraq War that was on and these guys got bombed

455
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 3: and the medics landed in the helicopter and they were

456
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,239
Speaker 3: loading these guys up, and one of the medics said, oh,

457
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,440
Speaker 3: we're going to fly to the hospital at Blood Airbase,

458
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:16,440
Speaker 3: and I turned to Lisa and said that's where I

459
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 3: was like, like, I would be the guy on the

460
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,400
Speaker 3: other end of this helicopter. I'd taken these guys off

461
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 3: the chopper. And that was the first time I had

462
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,879
Speaker 3: talked about it. And that night was the first nightmare

463
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 3: I had. It's a big time flashback of the war.

464
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:29,640
Speaker 3: And then within a few days I had my first

465
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 3: real panic attack, and then I had a spell where

466
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 3: I was driving. I stopped at a red light and

467
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,919
Speaker 3: the helicopter flew by, like the life light. Helicopter flew by,

468
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 3: and I just I just zoned out. Lisa said, I

469
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,440
Speaker 3: set there through two or three red light changes, and

470
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 3: she had to wake me up, like, what's going on?

471
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 3: You know, you just disappeared. And so eventually figured out

472
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 3: that I was experiencing PTSD right, and so my mental health.

473
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 3: I was aware as a trained, board certified neurosurgeon. I

474
00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,119
Speaker 3: was aware that my brain was telling me things and

475
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 3: making me feel things that were not true, but they

476
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 3: still felt really true, and so I could I could

477
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 3: analyze it as a scientist, and I could say, oh,

478
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 3: this isn't real. I'm not having I'm not being murdered,

479
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 3: but I sure feel like I am in my heart's

480
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 3: racing and I'm afraid and I'm scared, and it's objectively safe,

481
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,440
Speaker 3: but I'm subjectively unsafe. And so I was in this

482
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,159
Speaker 3: weird place because I thought I was going crazy a

483
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 3: little bit, because I could I could have these two

484
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,119
Speaker 3: conversations with myself at the same time, and I couldn't

485
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 3: make it feel better right, And so it was weird

486
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,680
Speaker 3: because I held on to my faith. I didn't doubt God.

487
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 3: I didn't get mad at him. I was I was

488
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 3: asking him questions and stuff, but I didn't I knew

489
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 3: the place the turn was to him. But then after

490
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 3: we worked through all that, I wrote my first book

491
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 3: about it. That was one of the mechanisms of getting

492
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 3: better that Lisa and one of my friends was the psychiatrist,

493
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 3: encouraged me to journal and write and that turned into

494
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 3: a self published book that then got published by as Honored.

495
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 3: It was my first book about the Iraq War, and

496
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,880
Speaker 3: that helped me to tell those stories and all that stuff.

497
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 3: It worked it out, and then everything was going really well,

498
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 3: and I was writing my second book, which was about

499
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 3: this conundrum I have when I saw people with malignant

500
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 3: brain cancer, and I would, as a Christian and a doctor,

501
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 3: I would look at the scan and I would sort

502
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,120
Speaker 3: of in my mind know what was going to happen

503
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 3: to him, like, I know when this tumor is coming back.

504
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 3: I know when you're gonna go on chemo. I know

505
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 3: you're gonna stop eating about six months from now. I

506
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,679
Speaker 3: know when you're gonna die. All that stuff and at

507
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 3: the same time, I would need to go in and

508
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:24,920
Speaker 3: encourage the patient and give him a hope and say

509
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 3: we're going to fight this, and you need to pray

510
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 3: and need to And I, as a Christian, I was like,

511
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 3: God can heal I believe that, But he never heals

512
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 3: this one, this particular tumor glib blastoma. He just always

513
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 3: says no to So I had this faith crisis of

514
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 3: how do I encourage my patient and be a good

515
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 3: doctor for him when I already think I know what's

516
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 3: going to happen. So I was writing about that, and

517
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 3: I was in the middle of writing that book when

518
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 3: Mitch died and my son, and so I'm writing a

519
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 3: book about suffering and people's responses to it and how

520
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 3: to find faith and hope when you're when you're hurting.

521
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 3: And then I lose my son and I'm in that

522
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,400
Speaker 3: place again. And this time the difference was I got

523
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 3: really mad at God, like I was really I was like, God,

524
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 3: I've been through all this hard stuff and I'm doing

525
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,360
Speaker 3: everything right, and and you took myself like, how could

526
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 3: you do that?

527
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 2: You know?

528
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 3: And I had all the normal stereotypical responses that people

529
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 3: have to suffering, you know, blaming God and wondering where

530
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 3: he is and maybe he's not real and all that

531
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 3: all that stuff that we do when we suffering. And

532
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 3: I started really being unmoored, kind of kind of unanchored

533
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 3: from what had always been the place I turned when

534
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 3: I was suffering, and I didn't know what to do

535
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 3: with that, because all of a sudden, the things I

536
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 3: thought were helping weren't helping anymore. And so my mental

537
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 3: health was scaring me because I couldn't cognitively make myself

538
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 3: understand that what I was feeling wasn't real and it

539
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 3: wasn't permanent. Because when when you lose a child, you

540
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 3: have all these and I'm sure any sort of major

541
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 3: loss you have all these thoughts like this is as

542
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 3: good as it's ever going to feel again, it's never

543
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 3: going to be okay, never going to be better than this.

544
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 3: I was had all this scared thought because I knew

545
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 3: the stats on marriages and what happens after the kids

546
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 3: they lose a kid, A lot of marriages fall apart.

547
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 3: I was worried about my other children, had all these

548
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 3: automatic thoughts about, well, why would my kids listen to

549
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 3: anything I say? Now that I couldn't help their brothers

550
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 3: survive as teenager, you know, all that irrational stuff. And

551
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 3: so it was about a month after Mitch died before

552
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 3: we went back to work. We owned our own practice,

553
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 3: Lisa Renner Practice. Our office was at Auburn University in Alabama,

554
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 3: on the third floor of a building in which they

555
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 3: did functional brand imaging on the first floor. And so

556
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 3: this research center where our office was. And as a

557
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 3: month or so after Mitch, or the accountant called us

558
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 3: one night and said, hey, you guys got to go

559
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 3: back to work. Like your company's out of money. You

560
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 3: got to pay your employees, payrolls coming, you got to

561
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,479
Speaker 3: generate some revenue, or you just need to close your

562
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 3: practice like and I couldn't do that. We s had

563
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 3: kids at home and all that, and so we went

564
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,959
Speaker 3: back to work and a few days later they invited

565
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 3: us down to watch some of this functional imaging research happen.

566
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 3: And I was angry and mad and sad and broken

567
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 3: and bereathed and all this stuff and doubting God and

568
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 3: really in a dark place. And I'll pause for a

569
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 3: second to confess that as a Christian who believes in

570
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 3: heaven and believes in the resurrection and all that practicing neuroscience,

571
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 3: where I've been taught that the brain is all you

572
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 3: are and everything about you is your brain activity and

573
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 3: all that. And I had never spent one second, Zach,

574
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 3: in my whole life, thinking that those two things were incompatible.

575
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 3: I just never thought about it. And I think most

576
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 3: people don't ever think about the mind and the brain

577
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 3: being different things, right, And so we went down to

578
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 3: this research meeting and they put this woman in the

579
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 3: scanner and they said, hey, missus Johnson, think about the

580
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 3: worst thing you've ever been through. And I'm thinking about

581
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 3: that night in Alabama, of course, Mitch dime. And we

582
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 3: saw her process that thought, kind of raise her eyebrows

583
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 3: and think of something, and then we saw her brain change.

584
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 3: Her a migdala lidaup on the fear center of her

585
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 3: brain got really active on the screen, which means metabolic

586
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 3: things were happening in her brain, right. And then shortly

587
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 3: after that her body reactur physiology changed. Her heart rate

588
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 3: went up and blood pressure went up and all that stuff.

589
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 3: So we saw this really clear sequence between mind and

590
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 3: brain and body. And then they said, Okay, stop thinking

591
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 3: about that, and I'll start thinking about your happiest thing

592
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 3: that's ever happened, your best thought, your best memory. And

593
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 3: quickly her medea kind of calm back down, and her

594
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,360
Speaker 3: front lopes came online, and different parts of her brain

595
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,959
Speaker 3: lit up, and then her physiology changed again, her heart

596
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 3: rate came down, blood perus. We saw this like God

597
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 3: was giving me this, this objective evidence of mind is

598
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 3: not the same as brain, and it has controlling influence

599
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 3: over her brain. And then body responds to brain. And

600
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 3: then Lisa, my wife, said, reminds me of Philippians four,

601
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 3: And I said, what do you mean? She said, well,

602
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 3: it's just don't be anxious to be grateful. Instead like

603
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 3: think about this and not that, and you'll feel better.

604
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 3: Like change what you're thinking about it don't make you

605
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 3: feel better. And so I told you, I was raised

606
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 3: in a fundamentalist church, and we had two rules, like

607
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 3: you don't talk about grace, don't talk about the Holy Spirit, right,

608
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 3: don't do any of those things. It's weird. And so

609
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 3: I wasn't raised to go around thinking that God was

610
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 3: going to speak to me or reveal things to me.

611
00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 3: It was just you study the Bible and you do

612
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 3: your best. That was the training I had And in

613
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 3: that moment, though, as clear as I hear your voice

614
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 3: in these headphones, like like God said, kindly, gently said

615
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 3: to me, hey, when you do brain surgery, like like

616
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 3: you're intentionally making a structural change in somebody's brain to

617
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 3: try to help their life in some way. Right, It's

618
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 3: like yeah, and he said, that's what she just did,

619
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 3: Like she intentionally made a structural change in her brain

620
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 3: to make herself feel better. Like she changed what she

621
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 3: was thinking about, It changed what her brain did. I

622
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 3: designed her that way, and it's the same as what

623
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 3: you do in surgery. It's literally surgery that she's doing

624
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 3: on herself. And in that moment, it was this, this

625
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 3: revelation happened that if I was going to feel different

626
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 3: after having lost my son, I was gonna have to

627
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 3: change what I was thinking about. I was gonna have

628
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 3: to change the perspective from which I was looking at

629
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 3: the situation. And I was gonna have to do seriously

630
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 3: apply what scripture said about how do you how do

631
00:29:58,480 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 3: you make yourself less?

632
00:29:59,640 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 2: Thing?

633
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 3: She You've got to switch towards something that looks like

634
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 3: gratitude or a different set of thoughts. And so I

635
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 3: started noodling that out and chewing on that and started like, looking, hey,

636
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 3: how does I've had these two things that I never

637
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 3: really tried to put together, science and faith? Maybe they

638
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 3: actually do go together, and maybe I should spend some

639
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 3: time trying to integrate that stuff as a way of

640
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 3: getting myself out of this hole that I'm in with

641
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 3: my own brain. And that's what led me out, man,

642
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 3: That's what did it for me.

643
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you, doctor Lee, just thinking

644
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 2: about this idea of in the middle of that grieving process,

645
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,719
Speaker 2: seeing what just happen your circumstances, understanding, yes, that your

646
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 2: condition is not your conclusion right at the end of

647
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 2: the day, that idea of hope that you can imagine

648
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 2: a different ending. But in a moment like that, when

649
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 2: you've just lost the sun and you've experienced such horrific trauma,

650
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 2: what were some of those thoughts that you did choose

651
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 2: to have in terms of the perspective shift, Like you said,

652
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 2: be anxious for nothing, but in everything, through prayer and

653
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 2: supplication with thanksgiving, let your request be made known unto

654
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 2: God like, what were some of the thoughts of gratitude

655
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 2: that you were able to shift your attention toward to

656
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 2: be able to make those brain surgeon uh decisions without

657
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 2: the scalpel in your own personal life.

658
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I would, you know, that's that's such a

659
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 3: good question. I would start thinking about. And let me

660
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 3: just say, as an aside, so this is not easy, okay,

661
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 3: this stuff we're talking about. And please don't don't don't

662
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 3: hear me say that this just was a switch I

663
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 3: threw up, just gonna be grateful and everything's fine, like

664
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 3: this is this is a process, okay. And it was

665
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 3: hard for me even understanding it, even having received that

666
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 3: what I think now was a special revelation. Like, even

667
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 3: having received that, it was still hard and it took

668
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 3: a long time and it took a lot of work

669
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 3: to get there. But I'll tell you what it is

670
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 3: is over time. So grief and trauma does the same thing.

671
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 3: Grief narrows your vision really acutely and makes you only

672
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 3: able to see the thing that's hurting you. Yes, and

673
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 3: that's all you can see, it's all that's real, and

674
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 3: all your thoughts begin to relate to that. Like and

675
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 3: for me it was like I'm never going to feel

676
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 3: okay again. I'm a terrible father. All these things that

677
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 3: were projecting out my wife's going to leave me, you know,

678
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 3: all this stuff. And so what I found was if

679
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 3: I would go down to Mitch's room. I used to

680
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 3: go down there and go in his closet and try

681
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 3: to smell him on his clothes, and for a while

682
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 3: I could, and then I remember the day I cried

683
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 3: really hard when I couldn't smell him anymore, like it faded.

684
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 3: It was too long since he'd warn any of those shirts.

685
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 3: But I would go down there and I would and

686
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 3: I would just try to think of something about having

687
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 3: known Mitch for nineteen years that made me happy. And

688
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 3: I would say, you know, I love the way he

689
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 3: told jokes, and I love the way he said Jesus.

690
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 3: He always said Jesus, like really emphasized the Jesus, and

691
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 3: he always said Jesus. And I would laugh, and I

692
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 3: would say, gosh, I'm so glad that Mitch was in

693
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 3: my life for those nineteen years, because I can remember

694
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 3: these all the different times and I was on a

695
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 3: bad day and he would say, hey, Dad, I love you,

696
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 3: you know, and and so I would just I would

697
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 3: just for a minute, just think of something about his

698
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 3: life that made me grateful or that made me happy,

699
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 3: and I would notice as a clinician again as a scientist,

700
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 3: I would say, gosh, my mood just got a little

701
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 3: bit better, Like I had a little micro bump in

702
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 3: my mood, and that's dope me. Like I could tell

703
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 3: myself what was actually happening, and I'm getting some reward.

704
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 3: I'm activating the reward pathway in my brain that's releasing

705
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 3: a positive neurotransmitter in response to me thinking a thought

706
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 3: that's sort of more on the gratitude happiness spectrum than

707
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 3: on the anxiety fear spectrum of sadness spectrum. And it's

708
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 3: it's proving out that what God said was true, Like

709
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 3: and then I started researching the hippocampus of the brain,

710
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 3: and that's an aside, But the hippocampus turns out to

711
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 3: be the switch between frontal of activation and the Migdal activation,

712
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 3: and you can't have both at the same time. And

713
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 3: all that gratitude is the antithesis of anxiety structurally in

714
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 3: your brain. So but you said, what's the thoughts is

715
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 3: things like that, Like I would say, I'm going to

716
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 3: switch from I'm still sad and I'm still hurting, but

717
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 3: I can choose what aspects of that I'm going to

718
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,720
Speaker 3: think about right now, and I'm going to think about

719
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 3: some aspect of Mitch's life, not in the context of

720
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 3: having lost him, but in the context of what my

721
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 3: life was about because I had him. And so that

722
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 3: started this process of every time I could make myself

723
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 3: do that. It wasn't perfect. It wasn't every time. Sometimes

724
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 3: I didn't want to do that. Sometimes I wanted to

725
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 3: sit and just be angry and sad and upset and

726
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 3: all that. And sometimes I couldn't help it. I did

727
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,359
Speaker 3: it anyway. In my book, Hope is the First Dose

728
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 3: that the previous book to this one, I wrote about this,

729
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 3: this vision that I kept having that sometimes happened in

730
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 3: the daytime, so it wasn't just a dream. Sometimes it

731
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 3: was a dream at night, and it was this vision

732
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 3: of I would see myself being drawn towards this dark staircase,

733
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,240
Speaker 3: and there was a door at the bottom of the staircase,

734
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,800
Speaker 3: and somehow I might In my vision, I knew that

735
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 3: Mitch was beyond that door, and he was bleeding out

736
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 3: from these stab wounds that he had in his neck,

737
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 3: and if I could just get through there, that I would.

738
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 3: I was like, I'm a surgeon. I know how to

739
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 3: fix it. I can save him, Like I had this

740
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,399
Speaker 3: strong urge to go down there, and and I kept

741
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 3: having that sort of just sort of gravitational like tractor

742
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 3: being kind of pulled to take myself in my mind

743
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 3: down that place. And and I had to learn how

744
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 3: to say, I'm just gonna choose not to go down

745
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 3: those stairs right now and sit in that room because

746
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 3: I can't save him. He's gone. And I would and

747
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 3: I would say, instead of that, I'm going to think

748
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,919
Speaker 3: about one of the times that that I was really

749
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 3: proud of him, or that that something happened that made

750
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 3: our lives better objectively because he was here. And I

751
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 3: would just force myself to kind of mentally turn away

752
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 3: from that staircase and towards something different. And I found

753
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 3: that if I could, the more I could do that,

754
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 3: the easier it was to do it. And it felt

755
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 3: it felt real, and it didn't feel like some kind

756
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,879
Speaker 3: of metaphor some kind of self help trick. It felt

757
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 3: like I could feel the chemicals in my brain changing.

758
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 3: And so I think it's not this happy, go lucky,

759
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,359
Speaker 3: just just be happy, just pretend. My friend Daniel Aman says,

760
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 3: don't he's not a big fan of positive thinking. He's

761
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 3: a fan of realistic thinking and a fan of dealing

762
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 3: with reality. And so for me, it was like, I know,

763
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 3: like the science is clear, like the brain chemistry changes

764
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 3: when you think about better things, and so I don't

765
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 3: need to pretend like my son isn't dead, and I

766
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 3: don't need to pretend like he's going to come home

767
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 3: tomorrow and all that stuff that you fantasizes about after

768
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 3: you lose him, because you do like sometimes I'm adorable. No,

769
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 3: it might be Mitch, you know, like it happens, and

770
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 3: still to this day, like I saved his phone, I

771
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 3: can't bring myself to delete his contact from my favorites.

772
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 3: And once in a while I'll accidentally bump it and

773
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:46,439
Speaker 3: not realize that and I look down and it looks

774
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,399
Speaker 3: like I missed a call for Mitch. And they'll break

775
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 3: my heart when I realized that, because my brain will

776
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 3: first go Mitch called, you know, but he didn't. He's

777
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 3: been dead for thirteen years. And so I have to

778
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 3: then choose to direct my tension and work to direct

779
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 3: my use my will, to direct my attention, to make

780
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 3: my brain get to that place where I can improve

781
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 3: my own neurochemistry, and it works, and it's consistent with scripture,

782
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 3: and it's consistent with neuroscience. It's not just sort of

783
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 3: positive pop psychology. It's a mechanism of how you can

784
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 3: reliably prove to yourself that your brain will do what

785
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 3: it's designed to do if you give it the chance

786
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 3: to Doctor Lee, I so appreciate just how real you are. Right,

787
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 3: You're not just thrown around platitudes or revealing science. Like again,

788
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 3: these are things that you have had to walk through,

789
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 3: and you're so authentic, and the book is so vulnerable

790
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 3: in nature. I mean, you give us these steps, these

791
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 3: practical guides that can really help us take steps in

792
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 3: our own journey to find help, hope, and healing. And

793
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 3: I think so often in the mental health space, especially,

794
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 3: we place such an emphasis on preventing ill being. Like

795
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:01,879
Speaker 3: you said, we want to make sure that we don't

796
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 3: have to suffer or alleviating suffering altogether, rather than equipping

797
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 3: ourselves with strategies to promote well being in the face

798
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,919
Speaker 3: of these adverse situations that will inevitably come in this life.

799
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 3: Joe fourteen, One man born of women is a few

800
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 3: of days but full of trouble. Right, So we need strategies,

801
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 3: and you give us these strategies in what you identify

802
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 3: them as the ten Commandments of Self Brain Surgery. And

803
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 3: I absolutely love this, but I want to go over

804
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:29,959
Speaker 3: just a couple today. If you're listening out there today,

805
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 3: you probably want to know all tense. You're gonna have

806
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 3: to pick up a copy of the book to make

807
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 3: sure that you get all ten. But we're just gonna

808
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 3: go over a couple today because Doctor Warren's already started

809
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 3: to hint a couple some of them. The first commandment

810
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 3: that you mentioned, though, I think is a really important one.

811
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 3: He said, I must relentlessly refuse to participate in my

812
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 3: own demise. And you know it's pretty self explanatory here,

813
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 3: but doctor Warren, help us understand how this is a

814
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 3: first step, although difficult, it is essential, and why this

815
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 3: first commandment really sets the stage for all the rest. Yeah,

816
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 3: so what I'm really asking you to do in this

817
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 3: book is to make that sort of mental switch from

818
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,359
Speaker 3: this helpless external locus of a control person who thinks

819
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,919
Speaker 3: that somebody else has to do something to fix what's

820
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 3: wrong with you, or that some help is coming from outside.

821
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 3: Because the truth is, like all of the healing. Every

822
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 3: modality of everything we do as professionals is aimed at

823
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 3: getting you to take steps to engineer your own healing. Right,

824
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 3: we can help you, but we can't do it for you.

825
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 3: And if you're going to make that switch and kind

826
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 3: of operate like a brain surgeon, like believe me that

827
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 3: it's real, and you're actually performing surgery on your own brain,

828
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 3: then you got to go to medical school. And on

829
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 3: the first day of medical school they make you take

830
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 3: an oath that says, I won't commit harm against my patient,

831
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 3: I won't commit malpractice against my patient. And if you're

832
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 3: going to be your doctor and your patient, then that

833
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 3: means you need to quit committing malpractice against yourself. And

834
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:58,320
Speaker 3: if you look at what we do, the things that

835
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 3: we do when we're hurting, many of them objectively are

836
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 3: bad for us. We numb ourselves with alcohol or pornography

837
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 3: or shopping or spending money or relationship whatever. We do

838
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 3: something to take our mind off of it and numb

839
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 3: ourselves in some way, and then we learn that you

840
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 3: can't numb yourself selectively. You're numbing your entire emotional experience

841
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 3: and you're not participating in, not present in your life

842
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 3: and all that stuff. It's bad for you. And so

843
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 3: we learn that these decisions that we make sort of

844
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 3: ostensibly to make ourselves feel better actually hurting our long

845
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 3: term outcome and our short term reality. So if we

846
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 3: could just all agree, like I want to look at

847
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,800
Speaker 3: the choices and decisions I'm making in response to my

848
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 3: pain or my suffering or my trauma or whatever, and

849
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,919
Speaker 3: stop doing things that are hurting myself. If you could

850
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 3: just get to that place, then all of a sudden,

851
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 3: every decision you're making is beneficial to you in some way.

852
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 3: You're going to heal much more fat much more quickly.

853
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 3: You're going to make progress much more rapidly because you're

854
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 3: not going to have to end time unwinding things that

855
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 3: you've done that have harmed you and set you back.

856
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 3: So that just that first commandment is just quit committing

857
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:08,800
Speaker 3: malpractice against yourself.

858
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 2: Yes, And you've already alluded to several of the other

859
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 2: ones about the ideas that those automatic negative thoughts, right,

860
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 2: the default is kind of pessimism. A lot of those

861
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,240
Speaker 2: automatic thoughts are very untrue. This idea then, that feelings

862
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 2: can be fiction. Those things are great indicators maybe that

863
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 2: something's off maybe that something needs greater attention, but they're

864
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,399
Speaker 2: horrible dictators, and they shouldn't be the things that begin

865
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 2: to control our life. You talk about how this idea

866
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 2: of self brain surgery is not just materialistic, it's not

867
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,760
Speaker 2: just this idea where it's a metaphor. No, it's actually

868
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 2: something that can become a mechanism to begin to transform

869
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 2: the way that we see and live our lives. But

870
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 2: I want to jump here for a second to the

871
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 2: sixth commandment. You said, I must love tomorrow more than

872
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 2: I hate how I feel right now. You've talked a

873
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 2: little bit about hope here in our conversation today, doctor,

874
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 2: but I just want to ask you when it comes

875
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 2: to that idea loving tomorrow more than you hate the

876
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 2: way that you feel right now in your own situation, Like,

877
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 2: how important was that particular commandment to help you begin

878
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 2: to envision a bigger, better, brighter tomorrow.

879
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's crucial. Lisa and I came up. We realized

880
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 3: that that some days we were paying what we called

881
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 3: it tomorrow tax, Like we make a choice tonight to

882
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,800
Speaker 3: turn on Netflix and zone out, or get on Instagram

883
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 3: and scroll, or drink too much wine or something. So

884
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 3: you don't have to process and deal with what it

885
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 3: is that you're feeling. And after you lose a kid

886
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 3: or or you go through some big thing like that,

887
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 3: like you just get to a point where you feel

888
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,400
Speaker 3: like you're coming out of your skin, like you can't

889
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 3: deal with it anymore. You want to turn it off,

890
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 3: And so you often turn it off, like I said earlier,

891
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 3: with some sort of numbing behavior. The problem is, Jesus

892
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 3: said this curious thing about worry, right, he saidn't worry

893
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 3: about tomorrow because every day's got enough trouble on its own, right.

894
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 3: But the corollary to that, I'll claim it is my own,

895
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 3: but I'm not the first person said it, but it

896
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 3: works for me is is don't mess up tomorrow by

897
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 3: what you choose to do today, because tomorrow is gonna

898
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 3: have its own set of things that need to be

899
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,839
Speaker 3: dealt with. And so when we talk about loving tomorrow more,

900
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 3: one of my old professors used to say, hey, don't

901
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 3: treat a bad feeling with a bad operation, Like don't

902
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 3: don't do the wrong thing by your patient. You're worried

903
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 3: about this thing and you make the wrong choice and

904
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 3: you hurt your patient some way, Like like what we

905
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,320
Speaker 3: do oftentimes is we don't think about the fact that,

906
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,800
Speaker 3: you know, if I if I say I have a

907
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 3: whole bottle of wine tonight and make myself pass out,

908
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 3: I can. I can. I can successfully not have to

909
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 3: think about whatever it is that I'm hurting tonight. It's

910
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 3: gonna work well. What's gonna happen tomorrow is I'm gonna

911
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 3: wake up and I'm gonna have a headache and I'm

912
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 3: gonna feel bad, and I'm gonna have brain fog, and

913
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna perform very well with my family, my kids.

914
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 3: I'm gonna get to work and not make really good decisions,

915
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,840
Speaker 3: and then I'm gonna be unable to see something that

916
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 3: I might have been able to see that God was

917
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 3: gonna show me tomorrow that would have made me feel bad.

918
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 2: Right.

919
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 3: There might have been a phone call I don't feel

920
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 3: like making that would have been the thing that somebody

921
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 3: said something encouraging that turned my day around and it

922
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 3: helped me. And I don't take the call because I

923
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 3: don't feel good and my head's hurting, and I choose

924
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,760
Speaker 3: not to make that cost. I'm paying a tax today

925
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 3: on the decisions I made last night. Wasn't I didn't

926
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 3: love today enough to handle yesterday in a way that

927
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 3: finished that day well and left me in a good

928
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 3: position to handle today. So when you're hurting, just be

929
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 3: aware that that intense pressure that you feel to stop

930
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 3: feeling it is actually going to turn out to make

931
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 3: you feel it more tomorrow and then have another set

932
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 3: of things that you have to deal with then, and

933
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 3: the default will be, well, I'm just gonna numb myself again.

934
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,760
Speaker 3: I'll push it off another day. And that's the basis

935
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 3: of addiction, it's the basis of bad coping mechanisms, is

936
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 3: the basis of checking out with your family and losing that.

937
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:52,800
Speaker 3: That's why marriage is unravel and all those things is

938
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 3: one person checks out and the other person tries to

939
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 3: stay checked in and it doesn't work. And so just

940
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 3: love tomorrow more than that and press through even if

941
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 3: onnes's uncomfortable.

942
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 2: You know it's I remember years ago and when I

943
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 2: was going through a difficult season of my own personal

944
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,439
Speaker 2: life and somebody was asking me because, like you said,

945
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 2: everybody reaches for something in those moments to numb or

946
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 2: to anesthetecize that void, that pain that they might be experiencing.

947
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 2: And I remember this person looked at me across the

948
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:19,320
Speaker 2: table and they said, Zach, when you don't know what

949
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 2: to do, where do you turn? And I recognize that

950
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 2: I was turning to all the wrong things. And the

951
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 2: problem was that they worked for a moment, for an hour,

952
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 2: right for a time, but they didn't ever leave me

953
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 2: feeling satisfied, feeling relief that I was actually seeking at

954
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 2: the end of the day, like the Lord does when

955
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 2: we surrender those things to him. I do want to

956
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 2: ask you real quick, because you did talk about in

957
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 2: the book this idea of critically examining our thoughts and

958
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 2: creating this thought biopsy. Because before I jumped to the

959
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 2: ninth commandment, which will be the last commandment that we

960
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 2: cover in our interview, I'm just thinking about the person

961
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 2: that wants to make sure that they're making the right decisions,

962
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 2: but also want to make sure that they're thinking the

963
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 2: right train of thought. We understand tewod Corinthians ten five

964
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 2: that we are called to take every thought captive, making

965
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 2: it obedient to Christ Romans twelve two, Transformed by the

966
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 2: renewing of our mind Philippians for eight, Like you said,

967
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 2: thinking on the things that are true, just noble pure, lovely, admirable, excellent,

968
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 2: or praiseworthy think on these things. But I want to

969
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 2: make sure that my thoughts are aligned or filtered through

970
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 2: the word of God. So, doctor Lee Warren, how do

971
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 2: we do that very thing?

972
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 3: So I like to call it a biops because I'm

973
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 3: a surgeon. Obviously. Imagine Zach, if you came to my

974
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:33,839
Speaker 3: office and you say, hey, Doc, you know I've been

975
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 3: having these headaches every day. If I said, okay, well

976
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 3: let's just go to the operating room and I'll just

977
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:39,919
Speaker 3: cut your head up and look around in there see

978
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 3: what's going on, you would say, wait a minute, right,

979
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 3: I mean, isn't that a little aggressive? Man? Don't you

980
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 3: want to do a scan or get some data first?

981
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 3: Don't you want to look at like, maybe do some

982
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 3: tests and just going straight to radical surgery on my brain? Right?

983
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 3: It'd be crazy. But that's what we do with our

984
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 3: thoughts and feelings. They just they pop in there. We

985
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 3: think they're true, we react to them as if they're true,

986
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 3: and then we find ourselves man, that didn't turn out

987
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 3: to be.

988
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 2: Right.

989
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:03,879
Speaker 3: Now I'm having to apologize to somebody because I've fired

990
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 3: off an angry email or something I'm having to do

991
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 3: something to unwind something that turned out not to be true.

992
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 3: If you're just if you can just develop this little space,

993
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 3: this little discipline of taking your thoughts captive. That that

994
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 3: literally at applying two Corinthians ten to five and saying

995
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna get a piece of this thing and

996
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 3: then look at it under the microscope like a surgeon

997
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 3: would look at a piece of tissue and decide what

998
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 3: the most appropriate response to it is. Like if it's cancer,

999
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 3: I need to operate, or I need to do radiation

1000
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 3: chemotherapy and to be aggressive and go after it. If

1001
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 3: it's scar tissue, that's the wrong thing for me to

1002
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 3: have done. I'll kill you instead, Like I should just

1003
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 3: leave it alone. It's fine, it's supposed to be there.

1004
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 3: So I need to find out what it is that

1005
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 3: I'm dealing with before I choose the response to it.

1006
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 3: And so if you can just take a breath when

1007
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 3: you're stimulated with something, a thought or a feeling pops

1008
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 3: in and get into that space that the psychologists called metacognition.

1009
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 3: Right this, I'm thinking about what I'm thinking about and

1010
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 3: feeling instead of just following it, instead of being inside it,

1011
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:03,879
Speaker 3: I'm outside of it, looking at it from a mind

1012
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 3: down perspective. If you can do that for a second

1013
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 3: and then compare that thought to something you know to

1014
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,240
Speaker 3: be true, and I think the Word of God functions

1015
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 3: really well there because it's always true. You have a

1016
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 3: thought like I did after our last match, I would

1017
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 3: commonly have this thought, I got no future. You know

1018
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 3: my future's post. I'm just I'm done for And the

1019
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:25,359
Speaker 3: Word of God would say, hey, I have a plan

1020
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 3: for you. I have a plan to prosper you and

1021
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 3: not to harm you, a plan to get be hope

1022
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 3: in the future, like God says, I do have a

1023
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 3: plan for you. And the thought says, there's no hope

1024
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 3: for me. And so I need to then do a transplant.

1025
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 3: I need to do an operation to grab that false,

1026
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:40,879
Speaker 3: negative thought and get rid of it and transplant something

1027
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 3: that is true, and then operate out of that. React

1028
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 3: to things, respond to things that are true, and then

1029
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 3: you'll find So you've stopped committing malpractice against yourself. Now

1030
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,840
Speaker 3: you've stopped treating today's woes by numbing yourself and messing

1031
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 3: up tomorrow. And now you're choosing not to automatically react

1032
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,280
Speaker 3: to every thought and feeling as if it's true without

1033
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 3: comparing it is something you know to be true. That's

1034
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 3: what we do with biops. He So we have a

1035
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 3: book full of all these different tumors and things in

1036
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:07,719
Speaker 3: the brain, and we can pull up the microscope slide

1037
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 3: and look at the tissue and then look at the

1038
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 3: picture and say, oh, it's this thing or it's that thing.

1039
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:12,800
Speaker 3: We can figure out what it is, and we have

1040
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 3: data and we know that we're now operating a good decision.

1041
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:20,479
Speaker 3: We're objectively making decisions instead of reacting or imagining things.

1042
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:24,479
Speaker 3: And so now you've moved from this reactive person who's

1043
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 3: having to unwind things that were mistakes because you reacted

1044
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 3: to untrue thoughts and feelings. And now you're moving from

1045
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 3: this person who's emotional and covering up your emotions with

1046
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,800
Speaker 3: no mean behaviors. And now you're deciding on a technique

1047
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 3: and a strategy to objectively evaluate you're thinking. And Heb's

1048
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 3: law is going to kick in for you. This neuroplastics,

1049
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 3: He's going to kick in and start to automate that

1050
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 3: as your baseline default state. And now before you know it,

1051
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 3: you'll start hearing this little voice, which Paul calls the

1052
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 3: mind of Christ. By the way in one Corinthians two sixteen,

1053
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 3: you hear this little voice when you have that automatic thought,

1054
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 3: it's going to go you know what, that might not

1055
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 3: be true. Man, to think about that for a second.

1056
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:03,879
Speaker 3: You'll start to hear some guidance, like a professor being

1057
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 3: next to you, the great physician being next to you,

1058
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:07,839
Speaker 3: like in the operator and say, hey, here's a better

1059
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 3: way to do that, and he'll help you operate in

1060
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 3: this better mode, and you'll start having better outcomes. And

1061
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 3: then you'll get that Romans five through through five. Things

1062
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 3: start kicking in and you'll start developing this kind of

1063
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 3: character that generates hope because you know it's going to

1064
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:22,879
Speaker 3: work out better this time than it did last time,

1065
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 3: because you keep practicing and your brain keeps rewarding you

1066
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 3: by doing things the way God designed it to do

1067
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 3: in the first place.

1068
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 2: I love it. Isn't it amazing how scripture right is

1069
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 2: always the foundation for good science. This idea of James

1070
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 2: four seven, that God asks us to really commit all

1071
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 2: of our actions and all of our thoughts to him,

1072
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 2: so that way in Philippians four, verse eight, we can

1073
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 2: begin to think on these things, and how do we

1074
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,800
Speaker 2: do that. Joshua one to eight says to meditate on

1075
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,320
Speaker 2: his word day and night and not depart from it.

1076
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 2: Right when it's so easy and I think the law

1077
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 2: is to turn to the world to scroll tom he

1078
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 2: asks us not to turn to the world, but to

1079
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 2: turn into devour in a sense, the word of God

1080
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 2: his part of the conversation to his children. And then

1081
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 2: at one Thessalonians five point seventeen, it talks to us

1082
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 2: about praying, continuously, living in the presence, in the space

1083
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 2: of God, taking these things to him not with certainty,

1084
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 2: but with honesty, so that way we can continue to

1085
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 2: build and deepen this relationship with God every day. Soa

1086
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 2: I'm ninety five six, then live a life of worship,

1087
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 2: turning our attention to Him. And then last the Galatians five,

1088
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:30,399
Speaker 2: this idea of walking then in the spirit every day

1089
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,959
Speaker 2: of our lives. I think, doctor Lee, what you've given

1090
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 2: people is so practical, and it's just such wisdom throughout

1091
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 2: your experience and your knowledge that you've accumulated throughout your

1092
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:42,919
Speaker 2: life personally but also your life professionally. But I want

1093
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:45,319
Speaker 2: to close with this idea of the ninth commandment before

1094
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,719
Speaker 2: my final question. The ninth commandment says this, I must

1095
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:53,360
Speaker 2: believe that I'm getting better at what I'm doing. And

1096
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 2: I think if I see anything in the counseling office,

1097
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:58,279
Speaker 2: especially in the work that I do with athletes, there

1098
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,280
Speaker 2: can be a level of frustration when you don't always

1099
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 2: see or immediately see results. It's easy to jump ship

1100
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 2: and to say, well, I'm going to try something else

1101
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 2: because this isn't working, Doctor Lee, Why is it so

1102
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 2: important that we must believe and even reiterate and rehearse

1103
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:17,840
Speaker 2: this narrative that we are getting better at what we

1104
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 2: are doing every single day to make sure that we're

1105
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:24,280
Speaker 2: wiring perseverance into our brains, into our minds, into our DNA.

1106
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a great question, And what it is is,

1107
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 3: basically that's a nod right to Hebb's law that your

1108
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 3: brain makes robust connections and automates things when you pay

1109
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 3: attention to them and focus on them from a particular perspective.

1110
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 3: But before you knew that you had that power, you've

1111
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 3: spent years operating your life and your mind and your

1112
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 3: brain in the same way, and that means you've automated

1113
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 3: a lot of responses in baseline default thoughts, thought, processes

1114
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 3: and emotional states that have become really robust, and they

1115
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 3: feel so automatic that you think that's just who you are,

1116
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:01,879
Speaker 3: and then you start trying to change them. And there's

1117
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 3: a lamp back there behind you on your wall. That

1118
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 3: light back there, and I imagine it's plugged into something, right,

1119
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:08,879
Speaker 3: it's got a power cord somewhere. And if I asked you, hey,

1120
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 3: that lamp is casting a weird shadow, like, can you

1121
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 3: move that? And you would go just unplug it and

1122
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 3: move it somewhere else and plug it back in. But

1123
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 3: if that lamp was operated according to Hebb's law, if

1124
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 3: you'd had that lamp for five or six years, every

1125
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 3: time you turned it on, it doubled its number of

1126
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 3: connections into your wall, right like that, If I said, hey,

1127
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 3: go move that, and you've been using that lamp for

1128
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 3: five or ten years, now, there's ten thousand wires going

1129
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 3: into your wall and you want to move it. You

1130
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 3: can still move it, but you're gonna have to unplug

1131
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 3: ten thousand wires and then move it and plug all

1132
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:42,800
Speaker 3: those back in. And you can still do it, but

1133
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 3: it's going to take some time, right, But you can

1134
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 3: trust that the process is that the underlying process is

1135
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 3: still going to work. And that's exactly what we have

1136
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:52,319
Speaker 3: when we try to change our behavior. And I want

1137
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 3: you to know that the process is working because we

1138
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 3: know from neuroscience that this pattern, this process of neurons

1139
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 3: physically dis connecting and reconnecting to other neurons, happens within

1140
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:06,880
Speaker 3: seconds of directing your attention. Like literally, the connections that

1141
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:11,280
Speaker 3: microtubules that connect neurons to other neurons, they degrade and redeploy,

1142
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:15,360
Speaker 3: like they've move themselves to other neurons within seconds to

1143
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:17,919
Speaker 3: minutes of you choosing to pay your attention to something else.

1144
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 3: But the problem is those connections have been made very

1145
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 3: robust by years and years and years of repetitive looking

1146
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 3: at it from the same angle and wiring in the

1147
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 3: same things. So it's frustrating because you want it to

1148
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:32,799
Speaker 3: happen immediately, but you have to think of that lamp

1149
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 3: back there. There's a lot of wires, except in your brain,

1150
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:38,959
Speaker 3: it's not ten thousand synapses, it's probably six hundred million

1151
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 3: of them. It's literally hundreds of millions of times that

1152
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:45,960
Speaker 3: that rep has been run in your brain, and it

1153
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 3: is hardwired in a way that's going to take a

1154
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:51,560
Speaker 3: long time of dedicated, intentional effort for you to make

1155
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:55,360
Speaker 3: the new default state better than it was. But it

1156
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 3: will work. It does work, and if you keep persisting

1157
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 3: at it. That's one of the ninth Amendment, is what

1158
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 3: it is. Like, I have to believe it because your

1159
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 3: brain really won't do something unless you believe it's gonna work,

1160
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:07,800
Speaker 3: Like your brain won't really pay attention, you'll have cognitive

1161
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:09,800
Speaker 3: dissonance around it, you won't persist with it. So you

1162
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 3: have to believe it, and then you have to press

1163
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 3: through and keep doing it because it takes something most

1164
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:16,919
Speaker 3: of the research says something like twenty one to ninety

1165
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 3: days to really create a new habit. Right, what you've

1166
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:22,240
Speaker 3: got is a bunch of brain habits that aren't serving

1167
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 3: you well, and you need to make new ones. And

1168
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:26,399
Speaker 3: in order to do that, you got to move that lamp.

1169
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 3: And to move the lamp, you have to unplug all

1170
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 3: the wires and plug new ones in. And so just

1171
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:34,760
Speaker 3: just knowing how that process works, how fearfully and wonderfully

1172
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 3: made you are, you can persist, but you have to

1173
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 3: believe it. And that's why I wrote it that way,

1174
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:41,319
Speaker 3: like you've got to believe that this is gonna work

1175
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 3: because you're getting better at what you do. The flip

1176
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 3: side's true too, though, because if you're doing stuff that's

1177
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:48,880
Speaker 3: harmful to you, you're gonna get better at that you

1178
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:51,320
Speaker 3: make new connections. Your brain doesn't care like what you

1179
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 3: tell it to automate, Like if you believe it, it's

1180
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 3: going to try to automate it. And so if you say,

1181
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:56,919
Speaker 3: you know, I'm really a loser and I'll never be okay,

1182
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 3: and I'm going to try this, but I don't really

1183
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:00,479
Speaker 3: believe it's gonna work, your brain's gonna automate and start

1184
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 3: to show you evidence that it really isn't going to

1185
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 3: work out for you. And so you have to believe

1186
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 3: it and you have to apply it in a way

1187
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 3: that helps you doesn't hurt you.

1188
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 2: That's right, this idea that the brain doesn't care even

1189
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 2: if what you're thinking isn't true. It just cares about

1190
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 2: what you repeatedly rehearse every single day. So believing though

1191
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 2: that what you are doing is you're taking these steps,

1192
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 2: that it is making you better and it is for

1193
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 2: your good and hopefully for God's glory. I want to

1194
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 2: close this way, Lee, because I always ask our guests

1195
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 2: just to share one final pressing word that God is

1196
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 2: placed on their heart for such a time as this.

1197
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:32,839
Speaker 2: And really, who I want you to speak to here

1198
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 2: in this moment is the person out there today, Lee,

1199
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 2: who feels discouraged and who feels disappointed, and who feels

1200
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 2: just like life just total despair, like in a pit

1201
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 2: of grief, like I kind of started out with. But

1202
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:48,839
Speaker 2: just having gone through this entire conversation understanding the neuroscience,

1203
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:51,160
Speaker 2: understanding the impact of faith and what it can do

1204
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:53,239
Speaker 2: to our brains, what it can do to our thought life,

1205
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:56,359
Speaker 2: that we really do have a lot more control over

1206
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 2: our health and our well being than people would potentially

1207
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 2: let on or actually know about to begin with. But

1208
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 2: I want to close the way of what's a final

1209
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 2: word of hope and encouragement and maybe motivation to that

1210
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:10,800
Speaker 2: person who feels like they're stuck in that state today.

1211
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:15,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just want to come alongside you and say,

1212
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 3: you know, we buried my little boy when he was nineteen,

1213
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 3: and I thought that was the end of me. And

1214
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:24,919
Speaker 3: there's this guy named Victor Frankele who wrote this book

1215
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 3: called The Man Search for Meeting. He was a concentration

1216
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 3: camp survivor from World War II was also a psychiatrist,

1217
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 3: and he said this interesting thing that he noticed that

1218
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 3: if people could find purpose in their suffering, that it

1219
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 3: stopped feeling like suffering. Right, So my word to you

1220
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 3: would be this that thirteen years almost thirteen years on

1221
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 3: the backside of having lost my son, I can tell

1222
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 3: you that everything God says that he will do when

1223
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:54,960
Speaker 3: you're hurting turns out to be true, and every promise

1224
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 3: he made that doesn't seem possible, Like when somebody came

1225
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 3: to me and my son's funeral and said, hey, Roman's

1226
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:02,840
Speaker 3: eight twenty eight says it's all gonna be okay, It's

1227
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 3: gonna work out for your good, and I've got really mad.

1228
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 3: It's a terrible thing to say to somebody at somebody's funeral.

1229
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 3: It's not good, it's not objectively good, it will never

1230
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 3: be good. But it's also not what the scripture says.

1231
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:16,400
Speaker 3: The scripture says God works everything together for the good

1232
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 3: of those who love Him and are called according to

1233
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 3: his purpose. And I can tell you thirteen years later

1234
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:23,440
Speaker 3: that's true. And the way it's true, the way I

1235
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 3: see it, things like what he said in Isaiah forty

1236
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 3: eight ten, that I will refine you in the furnace

1237
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:29,680
Speaker 3: of suffering, and you're in that furnace right now, and

1238
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 3: it feels like it's going to define you. It's gonna

1239
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 3: burn you up and you cook you and you're never

1240
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 3: gonna be okay again. But I can tell you a

1241
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 3: thirteen years later, like I am fundamentally a different and

1242
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 3: more refined person than I was before I lost my son.

1243
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 3: And I'm fundamentally able to see that some objectively good

1244
00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 3: things are in my life now because of what happened

1245
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 3: after we lost our son. And a good example is

1246
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 3: this conversation we're having right now. I never would have

1247
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:58,160
Speaker 3: written books and started podcasting and talking about my pain

1248
00:58:58,240 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 3: and all those things before because I was a heart

1249
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:02,560
Speaker 3: charging neurosurgeon and I thought that's what my life was about.

1250
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:06,439
Speaker 3: And what I figured out was my life isn't about

1251
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 3: being a neurosurgeon. My life is about figuring out what

1252
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:10,840
Speaker 3: hurts people and how to help him understand what to

1253
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:12,000
Speaker 3: do about it. And I can do that as a

1254
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 3: neurosurgeon or a writer or a podcaster, or a brother

1255
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 3: in Christ or a friend or a husband or father, grandfather.

1256
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:22,320
Speaker 3: And so when God says something in scripture that he

1257
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 3: will do for you likes I'm thirty four eighteen, I'll

1258
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 3: be close to you when you're broken hearted. That turns

1259
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 3: out to be true, and some of those promises are

1260
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:33,280
Speaker 3: felt more early in the process, like him being close

1261
00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:34,960
Speaker 3: to you when you're broken heart, if you pay attention

1262
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 3: and just let the right side of your brain come

1263
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:39,640
Speaker 3: online a little bit and start to see that two

1264
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 3: things can be true at the same time. We talked

1265
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:44,880
Speaker 3: earlier about this idea that trauma kind of narrows your vision,

1266
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 3: and God did a really beautiful thing for us that

1267
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 3: it didn't feel beautiful at the time. But the day

1268
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 3: we buried our son, our first granddaughter was born the

1269
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:57,520
Speaker 3: same day, and he was buried in Alabama, and our daughter,

1270
00:59:57,560 --> 00:59:59,560
Speaker 3: who lived in Texas, was supposed to be there at

1271
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:01,440
Speaker 3: his funeral, but she was having a baby instead in

1272
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:03,720
Speaker 3: Texas and we were supposed to be there with her,

1273
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 3: and instead we were at the funeral of her brother,

1274
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:09,640
Speaker 3: and so we had all this pain around both of

1275
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:13,000
Speaker 3: those things. But then this amazing thing happened where God

1276
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:16,280
Speaker 3: allowed those two things to happen on the same day.

1277
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 3: Because while we were having the funeral, We've got some

1278
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 3: text messages with pictures of the baby, and Katie's okay,

1279
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:25,960
Speaker 3: and Scarlet's okay, and everybody's okay. And there was this

1280
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:28,360
Speaker 3: little bit of light in the midst of all that darkness.

1281
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 3: And so what God was doing was showing me, Hey,

1282
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:33,240
Speaker 3: broaden your vision just a little bit, and you can

1283
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:35,440
Speaker 3: see that it's really dark, but there's also still some

1284
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:38,200
Speaker 3: light out there. And so what I'm just telling you

1285
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:40,040
Speaker 3: is that you may not have it happen the way

1286
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:42,760
Speaker 3: I did, where there's two things happen in such close proximity,

1287
01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:46,080
Speaker 3: but over time he will start to widen your vision again,

1288
01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:48,800
Speaker 3: and if you're willing to look, you'll start to see

1289
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:51,480
Speaker 3: some light again, and those promises will start to the

1290
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:53,200
Speaker 3: ones that are a little bit more far reaching will

1291
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:56,000
Speaker 3: start to seem like they might possibly be true. And

1292
01:00:56,080 --> 01:00:59,080
Speaker 3: if you just keep pressing forward and using your nervous

1293
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 3: system the way it's design, which it's designed to heal

1294
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:03,200
Speaker 3: and grow and change and overcome. It's not designed to

1295
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:06,360
Speaker 3: stay stuck and broken. It's not easily fractured. It's actually

1296
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:09,760
Speaker 3: robust and anti fragile, and it's designed to get stronger

1297
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:13,800
Speaker 3: when you go through hardship that eventually you will get

1298
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:16,160
Speaker 3: to a place where you look back on what you've

1299
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:21,480
Speaker 3: been through, and you'll say, hey, I am fundamentally somewhat

1300
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:23,840
Speaker 3: better as a person. I understand have more empathy now,

1301
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:26,280
Speaker 3: or I'm more present now, or some things I thought

1302
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 3: were really important or not important and I know that now,

1303
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:30,680
Speaker 3: or some things I thought were trivial or now I

1304
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:32,920
Speaker 3: understand are really super important. Like you're going to be

1305
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:35,960
Speaker 3: given some gifts that if you pick them up and

1306
01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:38,920
Speaker 3: use them, are gonna make your life better. And God's

1307
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:41,320
Speaker 3: going to work that out for some good not that

1308
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:44,720
Speaker 3: the thing will be good, but that you'll receive some

1309
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:47,880
Speaker 3: good things because you were faithful and believed him and

1310
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:51,080
Speaker 3: followed and listened and pressed in and hoped. And that's

1311
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:53,360
Speaker 3: the reason I think it makes sense that it may

1312
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 3: not take you thirteen years, but it might take you

1313
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:59,160
Speaker 3: thirty years, and you might be going through something that's

1314
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:01,280
Speaker 3: not likely a child, and it might not take you

1315
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:03,959
Speaker 3: two or three years, or it might be something worse

1316
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:06,120
Speaker 3: than that. I have a friend who I thought losing

1317
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 3: my son was the worst thing. He lost two sons

1318
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:12,120
Speaker 3: in thirteen months, and one of them committed suicide and

1319
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:15,360
Speaker 3: the other one died of leukemia after a bone marrow

1320
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 3: transplant and my friend was the donor, and the kid

1321
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 3: had a reaction to his dad's bone marrow and died

1322
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:23,280
Speaker 3: with a large regression. And so my friend lost two

1323
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 3: of his sons in thirteen months and the worst way possible. So,

1324
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 3: like I'm just telling you, there's some things that are

1325
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:30,840
Speaker 3: going to take longer then you think they're going to

1326
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 3: take for you to get better. But the process works,

1327
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:38,160
Speaker 3: and God's words are true and his promises are real,

1328
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 3: And if you can just hold onto that, because all

1329
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:44,720
Speaker 3: the alternatives are worse, Okay, if you give into alcoholism,

1330
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:47,680
Speaker 3: there's no bottom to that, there's no place where that

1331
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:50,080
Speaker 3: just all of a sudden turns and everything's okay again. Like,

1332
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:52,960
Speaker 3: it just doesn't work out that way. So every alternative

1333
01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:54,880
Speaker 3: to pressing in and letting God show you that He

1334
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:57,080
Speaker 3: really will be with you and will let you operate

1335
01:02:57,080 --> 01:02:59,160
Speaker 3: your nervous system in this way, and he really will

1336
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:01,439
Speaker 3: make his promises true, and he really will make hope

1337
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:04,360
Speaker 3: come alive again, really will broaden your vision again. All

1338
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:06,080
Speaker 3: of that turns out to be true, and it's better

1339
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 3: than any of the alternative choices that you can make.

1340
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:12,280
Speaker 3: And I can say that objectively as a neuroscientist, and

1341
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:15,360
Speaker 3: experientially as a dad who did it and have been

1342
01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:18,000
Speaker 3: living it, and I can say it that it's consistent

1343
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:20,560
Speaker 3: with scripture. And so all those three things about who

1344
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:24,160
Speaker 3: I am, who Lee Warrant is like, all are testifying

1345
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:27,880
Speaker 3: to this idea that the only real path towards healing

1346
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:30,960
Speaker 3: involves trusting that what God has said about you is true,

1347
01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:33,840
Speaker 3: that you are fearfully and wonderfully made, that your brain

1348
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:36,520
Speaker 3: is designed to develop hope through the process and the

1349
01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:38,000
Speaker 3: avenue of suffering.

1350
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:41,040
Speaker 2: And you really can do it when your back's pressed

1351
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:43,439
Speaker 2: up against the wall. Don't start with what you see.

1352
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:46,680
Speaker 2: Start with what God said, that idea of Romans eight

1353
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:48,720
Speaker 2: twenty eight, where we know that all things work together

1354
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 2: for the good of those who love God and who

1355
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:53,720
Speaker 2: have been called according to His purpose. And you know,

1356
01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:56,040
Speaker 2: doctor Lee, something that I often say, and I often

1357
01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:59,160
Speaker 2: think about, is that my definition of good doesn't always

1358
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:02,560
Speaker 2: align with God. And so sometimes my definition of good

1359
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:05,640
Speaker 2: is easy and comfortable and convenient and successful and the

1360
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:08,280
Speaker 2: healing and the miracle. But at the end of the day,

1361
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:10,600
Speaker 2: God's definition of good is the very next verse Rome

1362
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:12,200
Speaker 2: is a twenty nine For those who four knew he

1363
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:14,920
Speaker 2: also predestined that we might be conformed to the image

1364
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:16,600
Speaker 2: of His son. Like you said, what you might be

1365
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:19,960
Speaker 2: going through is not defining you, it's refining you. And

1366
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 2: if it can conform you to the image of His Son,

1367
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:25,160
Speaker 2: then there will be good and it will be done

1368
01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:28,280
Speaker 2: for his glory, no matter what the situation or the

1369
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:32,040
Speaker 2: circumstance might look like. So Doctor Lee, again, God never

1370
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:35,320
Speaker 2: wastes a wound. That's something that I've taken away from

1371
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:37,840
Speaker 2: today's conversation. I just wanted to say how much we

1372
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:41,600
Speaker 2: appreciate you at the American Association of Christian Counselors on

1373
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:45,080
Speaker 2: behalf of my dad, doctor Tim Clinton, our entire team life, love,

1374
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:47,840
Speaker 2: faith and family to build different podcasts. We love the

1375
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:49,920
Speaker 2: work that God is doing in and through you. How

1376
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 2: you're sharing your testimony so vulnerably but also incredible resources.

1377
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:54,840
Speaker 2: So I want to ask this, where can our audience

1378
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 2: members go to find out a little bit more about

1379
01:04:57,240 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 2: you and maybe to pick up a copy of this book,

1380
01:04:59,360 --> 01:05:01,640
Speaker 2: The Life Chain Art of Self Brain Surgery.

1381
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:05,960
Speaker 3: Thank you. I'm so honored at your words and your friendship, Zach,

1382
01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:09,040
Speaker 3: and grateful for the work that you're doing. I'm easy

1383
01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:11,600
Speaker 3: to find doctor Lee Warren dot com. It's just one

1384
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:13,880
Speaker 3: word d r L e E W A r R

1385
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:16,120
Speaker 3: e N, just all smashed together. Doctor Lee Warren dot

1386
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:19,240
Speaker 3: com is my website, everything about me, all my books, podcast, newsletter,

1387
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:22,320
Speaker 3: everything's there. But the book is available everywhere books are

1388
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 3: sold anywhere in the world. Really, there's an audio version

1389
01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:27,880
Speaker 3: that I recorded and it's easy to find. But I

1390
01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:30,360
Speaker 3: would encourage people, like, like, whether it's my book or

1391
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:34,600
Speaker 3: somebody else's book or whatever, like dig in to this

1392
01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:37,880
Speaker 3: idea that it is possible for you to feel better

1393
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:40,200
Speaker 3: than you feel now. It's possible for you to do

1394
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:43,000
Speaker 3: different things than you have been doing if you operate

1395
01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:44,520
Speaker 3: your brain the way God designed it to do. It

1396
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:47,480
Speaker 3: is really possible. It's almost inevitable if you just believe

1397
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:48,680
Speaker 3: that you're getting better at what you do.

1398
01:05:49,120 --> 01:05:51,360
Speaker 2: Hey man, doctor Lee Warren dot com, pick up a

1399
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:55,080
Speaker 2: copy today of The life changing Art of Self Brain Surgery.

1400
01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:57,120
Speaker 2: I promise it's going to not only better your life,

1401
01:05:57,160 --> 01:06:00,080
Speaker 2: but also for those that you love. Against all all

1402
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:02,120
Speaker 2: of our audience members, thank you so much for joining us,

1403
01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:02,840
Speaker 2: Doctor Lee Warren.

1404
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:04,280
Speaker 1: Thank you again for joining me, my friend.

1405
01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:05,200
Speaker 3: Thanks Tim