1 00:00:02,820 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: I can't will myself into believing this. So, okay, God, 2 00:00:07,140 --> 00:00:09,500 Speaker 1: the first thing you need to do is get me 3 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:12,340 Speaker 1: out of the way. Get all of my fears and 4 00:00:12,500 --> 00:00:16,570 Speaker 1: all of my apprehension and all of my hard wiring 5 00:00:16,610 --> 00:00:19,250 Speaker 1: that makes it impossible for me to believe you when 6 00:00:19,270 --> 00:00:21,690 Speaker 1: you say you delight over me. You need to make 7 00:00:21,730 --> 00:00:23,869 Speaker 1: that go away because I don't even know how to 8 00:00:23,910 --> 00:00:24,190 Speaker 1: do that. 9 00:00:29,170 --> 00:00:31,990 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Faith Over Fear podcast where we discuss 10 00:00:32,110 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 2: powerful truths to quiet anxiety and fear big and small. 11 00:00:36,420 --> 00:00:40,409 Speaker 2: I'm Jennifer Slattery and I have an important... And maybe 12 00:00:40,530 --> 00:00:46,589 Speaker 2: challenging question, when was the last time you felt delighted in? 13 00:00:46,900 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 2: Not just when you were behaving a certain way, doing 14 00:00:49,940 --> 00:00:54,180 Speaker 2: something someone else found valuable, or you achieved a certain 15 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 2: level of success in an area, but when you mess up, 16 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,110 Speaker 2: when you say things you wish you hadn't, or completely 17 00:01:01,390 --> 00:01:03,610 Speaker 2: lose your cool in the grocery store line. 18 00:01:03,650 --> 00:01:04,590 Speaker 3: Nobody else does that, right? 19 00:01:05,950 --> 00:01:08,850 Speaker 2: Going a little deeper, when you land in one of 20 00:01:08,930 --> 00:01:12,970 Speaker 2: those places where you know you didn't behave like you 21 00:01:13,069 --> 00:01:16,270 Speaker 2: hoped you would and that you know God desires for you, 22 00:01:16,530 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 2: can you still sense his nearness? Can you still sense 23 00:01:21,660 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 2: his delight in you? Or does he maybe suddenly feel distant? 24 00:01:27,340 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 2: And we might understand intellectually that God is loving, gracious, 25 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:35,060 Speaker 2: and kind. But sometimes we can carry a fear that 26 00:01:35,100 --> 00:01:38,850 Speaker 2: we have or that we will disappoint the Lord because 27 00:01:39,069 --> 00:01:41,790 Speaker 2: maybe somewhere in your past you bought the lie that 28 00:01:41,830 --> 00:01:44,830 Speaker 2: you weren't enough or you were too much. Someone others 29 00:01:44,970 --> 00:01:48,860 Speaker 2: tolerate when you're on your best behavior, but not someone, 30 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 2: anyone except for maybe, I don't know, your mother or 31 00:01:50,940 --> 00:01:52,180 Speaker 2: your grandmother. 32 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:52,940 Speaker 3: Would ever delight in. 33 00:01:53,020 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 2: If that's you, I'm confident today's episode will speak truth. 34 00:01:57,810 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 2: to that fear, healing that deep, deep wound and help 35 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 2: you understand a little more fully how to receive and 36 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,780 Speaker 2: how to really rest in God's delight in you and 37 00:02:08,820 --> 00:02:11,590 Speaker 2: how doing so can lead to increased joy and peace. 38 00:02:11,830 --> 00:02:14,810 Speaker 2: To help us navigate this often confusing topic, I've invited 39 00:02:14,850 --> 00:02:19,250 Speaker 2: a sweet friend, Stephanie Roussel, author of Awakening Delight, on 40 00:02:19,330 --> 00:02:22,940 Speaker 2: to share how she, someone who once felt unloved, came 41 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:27,690 Speaker 2: to rest and find strength and healing in her delight 42 00:02:27,730 --> 00:02:31,810 Speaker 2: of God and, most importantly for this conversation, his delight 43 00:02:31,970 --> 00:02:34,150 Speaker 2: of her. Stephanie, thank you so much for joining us. 44 00:02:34,389 --> 00:02:37,790 Speaker 1: Thank you, Jennifer. It is such a delight, no pun intended, 45 00:02:37,850 --> 00:02:38,790 Speaker 1: to be with you today. 46 00:02:39,010 --> 00:02:39,390 Speaker 3: I love it. 47 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 2: Stephanie Roussel is a Bible teacher, speaker, and podcaster, and 48 00:02:43,100 --> 00:02:47,700 Speaker 2: the author of Awaken Delight, Satisfying Your Soul's Longing for God, 49 00:02:48,060 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 2: which releases this year by InterVarsity Press. Some of our 50 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:55,730 Speaker 2: listeners probably remember a bit of your story, and your 51 00:02:55,770 --> 00:02:59,070 Speaker 2: book talks about how, and I wonder, maybe still, does 52 00:02:59,090 --> 00:03:02,730 Speaker 2: that still occur, where you struggle to really feel love, 53 00:03:02,870 --> 00:03:04,550 Speaker 2: to receive love? 54 00:03:04,730 --> 00:03:07,950 Speaker 1: You know, it occurs a lot less, and that gives 55 00:03:07,990 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 1: me a lot of hope. So I used to really 56 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,739 Speaker 1: struggle so much to feel loved. And we can go 57 00:03:13,780 --> 00:03:17,540 Speaker 1: into the reasons for that, mostly in my childhood. But really, 58 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,450 Speaker 1: it has always been so much easier for me to 59 00:03:20,550 --> 00:03:23,790 Speaker 1: love others than to receive their love. And God has 60 00:03:23,830 --> 00:03:27,489 Speaker 1: given me a loving husband and loving children. And yet 61 00:03:27,710 --> 00:03:32,300 Speaker 1: I have found myself so many times struggling to believe, 62 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,580 Speaker 1: let alone even think, oh my goodness, they actually not 63 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: only love me, but really like me too. Because that's 64 00:03:39,060 --> 00:03:42,260 Speaker 1: two very different things. Sometimes love feels like this thing 65 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,370 Speaker 1: we have to do. It's a decision of the will 66 00:03:44,410 --> 00:03:46,390 Speaker 1: we are taught and that it has nothing to do 67 00:03:46,410 --> 00:03:49,150 Speaker 1: with emotions. And to a point, it's true. But at 68 00:03:49,170 --> 00:03:51,410 Speaker 1: the same time, I don't want my husband or my 69 00:03:51,450 --> 00:03:53,550 Speaker 1: kids to love me because they have to. I want 70 00:03:53,570 --> 00:03:55,970 Speaker 1: them to love me because they really like me. And 71 00:03:56,010 --> 00:03:58,650 Speaker 1: that's really hard for me to believe because most of 72 00:03:58,670 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: the time, I don't really like myself a whole lot. 73 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: So I wonder how they could like me. And maybe 74 00:04:03,620 --> 00:04:06,620 Speaker 1: many of you can relate, right? So that has been 75 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,500 Speaker 1: the primary scenario in my head for so many years. 76 00:04:10,940 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: But writing this book and researching for this book, you know, Jennifer, 77 00:04:15,690 --> 00:04:19,150 Speaker 1: Authors write the books they need to read. And I 78 00:04:19,730 --> 00:04:23,060 Speaker 1: think I really, like the Lord invited me on this 79 00:04:23,100 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 1: journey to really dig very deep into what it means 80 00:04:27,580 --> 00:04:30,789 Speaker 1: that he loves me and even likes me. Imagine that. 81 00:04:31,150 --> 00:04:34,409 Speaker 1: that he delights in me, he rejoices over me with singing. 82 00:04:34,610 --> 00:04:36,970 Speaker 1: It's so easy for me to say that about you 83 00:04:37,390 --> 00:04:40,150 Speaker 1: and about anyone I meet, but about me? Really? Is 84 00:04:40,190 --> 00:04:42,330 Speaker 1: that really true? And so he took me on this 85 00:04:42,390 --> 00:04:46,380 Speaker 1: journey to really kill a lot of lies that I believed. 86 00:04:46,660 --> 00:04:49,260 Speaker 1: And intellectually, I would have told you, of course, God 87 00:04:49,300 --> 00:04:52,260 Speaker 1: loves me, God likes me, but really, I wasn't living 88 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:56,370 Speaker 1: like it was true. And so I'm... flabbergasted actually to 89 00:04:56,410 --> 00:04:59,030 Speaker 1: report that I struggle with this a whole lot less 90 00:04:59,050 --> 00:05:01,529 Speaker 1: than I used to, probably still on some days, the 91 00:05:01,550 --> 00:05:03,590 Speaker 1: days where, you know, I really don't like myself a 92 00:05:03,630 --> 00:05:06,630 Speaker 1: whole lot. But I have discovered that whether I like 93 00:05:06,740 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: myself or not, God likes me. I can't get over that. 94 00:05:11,210 --> 00:05:12,010 Speaker 3: I really love that. 95 00:05:12,029 --> 00:05:14,790 Speaker 2: And there's also something I appreciate in what you said. 96 00:05:14,910 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 2: We can have a cognitive understanding of God's unconditional love 97 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:23,660 Speaker 2: because if we are Christ followers, I hope that we 98 00:05:23,700 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 2: believe scripture and scripture tells us that his love is 99 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,349 Speaker 2: beyond comprehension, but we can have places in our subconscious, 100 00:05:30,529 --> 00:05:34,650 Speaker 2: our wounded places in our souls that those little kids, right? 101 00:05:34,710 --> 00:05:39,490 Speaker 2: That didn't experience parental delight. And maybe that feels really 102 00:05:39,510 --> 00:05:42,170 Speaker 2: foreign to them. And then God wants to meet us 103 00:05:42,490 --> 00:05:44,390 Speaker 2: in that. And one thing I, as I was reading 104 00:05:44,410 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 2: your book and just really prayerfully wrestling over this whole topic, 105 00:05:48,420 --> 00:05:51,900 Speaker 2: I think a lot of times in our practice, like 106 00:05:51,940 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 2: how we live out our faith and then some of 107 00:05:53,779 --> 00:05:56,029 Speaker 2: my own stuff and I think a lot of times 108 00:05:56,070 --> 00:06:00,130 Speaker 2: the messages we receive, whether they're conscious or subconscious, whether 109 00:06:00,170 --> 00:06:03,890 Speaker 2: they're spoken or implied, we get the order wrong. Where 110 00:06:03,940 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 2: we think like, if I behave a certain way, God 111 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 2: is going to, I'll have his favor. 112 00:06:07,940 --> 00:06:12,900 Speaker 3: I'll have his connection. I'll have his delight. But really, 113 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:14,940 Speaker 3: doesn't it work the other way around? 114 00:06:15,100 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 1: That's what I'm discovering. I want to tell you, I've 115 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: discovered it. But like, I think this is still a process. 116 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:22,420 Speaker 1: I think we're all always in process. I think there's 117 00:06:22,460 --> 00:06:26,130 Speaker 1: humility in saying, you know, you step into something new 118 00:06:26,350 --> 00:06:29,770 Speaker 1: and it changes everything, but you still haven't fully grasped it. 119 00:06:29,890 --> 00:06:33,370 Speaker 1: So I don't think we'll ever exhaust the depth of 120 00:06:33,410 --> 00:06:35,010 Speaker 1: his delight of us. I think that's going to be 121 00:06:35,110 --> 00:06:37,710 Speaker 1: one of the greatest joys of heaven, but I completely agree. 122 00:06:37,770 --> 00:06:41,900 Speaker 1: It's absolutely life-changing and it's something that takes time to discover. Yeah. 123 00:06:42,060 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 2: Well, and I think too, sometimes it can be a 124 00:06:44,070 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 2: paradigm shift are images of God. Like we know he's brilliant. 125 00:06:49,220 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 2: We know he's all powerful. We know he's savior and 126 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 2: he's merciful and gracious. 127 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:54,700 Speaker 3: All of those things. 128 00:06:55,040 --> 00:07:01,490 Speaker 2: But picturing God expressing delight can feel so much of 129 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,970 Speaker 2: what we encounter on this world is conditional. And so 130 00:07:05,010 --> 00:07:09,590 Speaker 2: I think that can play into subconsciously how we expect 131 00:07:09,830 --> 00:07:10,590 Speaker 2: God to show up. 132 00:07:10,710 --> 00:07:12,740 Speaker 1: And I think what you're saying is, Part of it 133 00:07:12,820 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: is having the self-awareness to realize that, that the reasons 134 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: why I struggle with this is because of this particular wound. 135 00:07:20,620 --> 00:07:23,990 Speaker 1: And so for me, yes, definitely major father issues. I 136 00:07:24,310 --> 00:07:26,390 Speaker 1: don't really talk about it directly in the book, but 137 00:07:26,470 --> 00:07:29,590 Speaker 1: very indirectly. I talk about a loved one and it 138 00:07:29,630 --> 00:07:32,950 Speaker 1: was my father, you know, just who was extremely harsh, 139 00:07:33,030 --> 00:07:36,410 Speaker 1: always moving the goalpost of performance and achievement. And it 140 00:07:36,450 --> 00:07:38,830 Speaker 1: didn't matter how much I would achieve. It was never 141 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,460 Speaker 1: good enough. And so basically learning, yes, love is utterly 142 00:07:42,500 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: conditional and he was a severe alcoholic. So he had 143 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,780 Speaker 1: his own issues. I don't blame him. I'm just full 144 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,790 Speaker 1: of pity and sadness and compassion for him. But at 145 00:07:50,810 --> 00:07:53,350 Speaker 1: the end of the day, his own woundedness caused a 146 00:07:53,390 --> 00:07:57,510 Speaker 1: lot of wounding as happens. And so it was this, 147 00:07:57,670 --> 00:08:00,610 Speaker 1: I was utterly born and bred in this environment where 148 00:08:00,970 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: my acceptance, you know, by others was utterly conditional on 149 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,870 Speaker 1: my behavior and on my performance specifically. And because and 150 00:08:07,890 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: specifically intellectual performance in my case. And so you just 151 00:08:11,390 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: had to just outsmart everyone. It didn't matter how unethical 152 00:08:16,620 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: you were in the process. So it's a very dangerous 153 00:08:19,660 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: mix of high intellectual achievement combined with a rather severe ruthlessness. 154 00:08:25,050 --> 00:08:27,490 Speaker 1: It didn't matter. Like the end always justified the means. 155 00:08:27,550 --> 00:08:31,270 Speaker 1: And so this creates an environment where God steps into 156 00:08:31,310 --> 00:08:33,850 Speaker 1: that and he calls himself your father. And he says 157 00:08:33,910 --> 00:08:37,660 Speaker 1: that he is trustworthy and safe and that He delights 158 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,420 Speaker 1: in you. That is such a foreign concept that it 159 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,610 Speaker 1: literally has taken me a couple of decades to start 160 00:08:44,970 --> 00:08:48,130 Speaker 1: thawing enough that God has been able to reach me 161 00:08:48,230 --> 00:08:50,990 Speaker 1: at that level. And for me, I think the starting 162 00:08:51,090 --> 00:08:56,230 Speaker 1: point was when I realized what you're describing, this discrepancy 163 00:08:56,270 --> 00:09:02,410 Speaker 1: between my theological knowledge. and my lived experience and living 164 00:09:02,429 --> 00:09:05,030 Speaker 1: in that tension. And while I can't fake it till 165 00:09:05,070 --> 00:09:06,830 Speaker 1: I make it, I mean, this isn't going to work. 166 00:09:06,890 --> 00:09:10,090 Speaker 1: So what's up with that? How do I wrestle with 167 00:09:10,130 --> 00:09:12,940 Speaker 1: the fact that God says he delights over me, but 168 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,819 Speaker 1: I certainly don't feel it. I don't necessarily agree with 169 00:09:15,860 --> 00:09:18,819 Speaker 1: him even on that. So then how, what do I 170 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,300 Speaker 1: do with that? And the only place that was safe 171 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,329 Speaker 1: for me to go was God and say, okay, God, Like, 172 00:09:24,690 --> 00:09:27,030 Speaker 1: I want to believe you about this, but it feels 173 00:09:27,110 --> 00:09:31,370 Speaker 1: very improbable. But only you can do that. So could 174 00:09:31,410 --> 00:09:34,220 Speaker 1: you please, with all my heart, actually, I don't want 175 00:09:34,250 --> 00:09:37,740 Speaker 1: to live in unbelief. Lord, I believe, overcome my unbelief. 176 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:39,980 Speaker 1: How do I do that, Lord? And I think... The 177 00:09:40,020 --> 00:09:43,099 Speaker 1: process was first for me to step out of the 178 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 1: way of my own healing. What I mean by that 179 00:09:45,780 --> 00:09:48,990 Speaker 1: is with the background I described to you, I'm hardwired 180 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:53,150 Speaker 1: to be extremely self-sufficient, to be in charge of my situation, 181 00:09:53,190 --> 00:09:55,550 Speaker 1: to usually do a pretty good job taking care of myself. 182 00:09:56,010 --> 00:09:59,030 Speaker 1: And here I am basically saying, well, this is one 183 00:09:59,150 --> 00:10:01,579 Speaker 1: area where I'm I can't, I mean, I can't fix this. 184 00:10:01,660 --> 00:10:03,459 Speaker 1: I can't do this. And there's no way I can 185 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,450 Speaker 1: make this happen. I can't will myself into believing this. So, okay, God, 186 00:10:07,490 --> 00:10:09,850 Speaker 1: the first thing you need to do is get me 187 00:10:10,130 --> 00:10:12,690 Speaker 1: out of the way. Get all of my fears and 188 00:10:12,850 --> 00:10:16,910 Speaker 1: all of my apprehension and all of my hard wiring 189 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: that makes it impossible for me to believe you when 190 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: you say you delight over me. You need to make 191 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,220 Speaker 1: that go away because I don't even know how to 192 00:10:24,260 --> 00:10:27,010 Speaker 1: do that. I think it took probably close to a 193 00:10:27,090 --> 00:10:30,250 Speaker 1: decade for me. Not to discourage anyone. I'm just saying 194 00:10:30,290 --> 00:10:31,910 Speaker 1: it's a very slow process. I'm trying to be as 195 00:10:31,970 --> 00:10:34,809 Speaker 1: transparent as I can here. But it has been full 196 00:10:34,950 --> 00:10:37,420 Speaker 1: of little delights along the way. So it's not... a 197 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: decade of hardship at all. It's not what I'm describing, 198 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,510 Speaker 1: but it's the gentleness of God that I think it 199 00:10:43,530 --> 00:10:47,490 Speaker 1: started with that is the gentleness of God. He could 200 00:10:47,830 --> 00:10:52,830 Speaker 1: reveal himself like a tsunami, but instead he chose gentle 201 00:10:53,030 --> 00:10:56,770 Speaker 1: waves of slow delight. Again, through my husband, through my children, 202 00:10:56,860 --> 00:10:59,219 Speaker 1: through a lot of good things, through writing this book, 203 00:10:59,340 --> 00:11:02,300 Speaker 1: even where I think this was writing the book was okay. 204 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: When I was typing and writing, I was like, do 205 00:11:04,260 --> 00:11:06,780 Speaker 1: I actually believe that? Or am I still like, faking 206 00:11:06,820 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: it till I make it sort of thing. And so 207 00:11:08,620 --> 00:11:11,470 Speaker 1: I did my best to try to write in the 208 00:11:11,540 --> 00:11:15,510 Speaker 1: presence of the Lord and being aware that I'm only 209 00:11:15,610 --> 00:11:18,589 Speaker 1: writing something that I feel the Lord has truly taught 210 00:11:18,650 --> 00:11:21,469 Speaker 1: me as opposed to writing the things that I would 211 00:11:21,510 --> 00:11:23,309 Speaker 1: like to be true in 10 years. 212 00:11:23,650 --> 00:11:23,989 Speaker 2: So yeah. 213 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: I've never done, you know, trust falls, you know what 214 00:11:36,660 --> 00:11:38,339 Speaker 1: they do in company settings, right? Where you do a 215 00:11:38,380 --> 00:11:41,060 Speaker 1: trust fall. I've never actually done that, but I feel 216 00:11:41,100 --> 00:11:43,540 Speaker 1: that's what I've done. Like the Lord has invited me 217 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:45,380 Speaker 1: to trust fall into him. Yeah. 218 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 2: There are a couple of things I really like about 219 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 2: what you said. I heard one listener, she had a 220 00:11:51,860 --> 00:11:54,740 Speaker 2: therapist that told her she was struggling with shame, which 221 00:11:54,780 --> 00:11:56,940 Speaker 2: basically is where you don't like yourself. You think you 222 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 2: don't have value. And the therapist was like, well, just 223 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,459 Speaker 2: don't do that. Just don't think that. And she's like, well, 224 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,310 Speaker 2: if it was that easy. And sometimes I think that's 225 00:12:04,350 --> 00:12:07,630 Speaker 2: the message we get, right? Just yield to him. Just 226 00:12:07,809 --> 00:12:11,229 Speaker 2: trust in his love. And I like that you acknowledge 227 00:12:11,250 --> 00:12:15,670 Speaker 2: that's not something we can determine and decide. It's something 228 00:12:15,710 --> 00:12:20,310 Speaker 2: that's built through God's faithfulness where he teaches us to trust. 229 00:12:20,350 --> 00:12:23,170 Speaker 2: But let's shift this back a bit because some listeners say, 230 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 2: this is going to be really foreign to them. And honestly, 231 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 2: it was a little to me. So help us to 232 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 2: understand what's the difference. Is there a difference between delight 233 00:12:32,740 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 2: and love? 234 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:35,700 Speaker 1: You know, that is such a good question. And when 235 00:12:35,860 --> 00:12:37,980 Speaker 1: I started writing the book, it's the first question my 236 00:12:38,059 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: editor asked me. You need to make sure you understand 237 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:45,050 Speaker 1: the difference between delight, love, joy, happiness, all of those things, right? 238 00:12:45,070 --> 00:12:47,790 Speaker 1: That are kind of all this cluster of good things. 239 00:12:48,150 --> 00:12:53,579 Speaker 1: I think delight, for me, delight is way more experiential 240 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:58,540 Speaker 1: than love. Delight is the convergence of theology and worship. 241 00:12:58,870 --> 00:13:02,790 Speaker 1: It's the convergence of theology and practice and experience. And 242 00:13:02,830 --> 00:13:07,170 Speaker 1: that's where a lot of the nuance comes from language. 243 00:13:07,390 --> 00:13:10,670 Speaker 1: So English is not my first language. French is. And 244 00:13:10,710 --> 00:13:14,429 Speaker 1: so I approach this from a French brain, mostly, even 245 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:18,340 Speaker 1: though clearly I'm comfortable in English. But in French, the 246 00:13:18,380 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: word delight is the word délice. And that word délice 247 00:13:22,420 --> 00:13:24,300 Speaker 1: reminds you probably of another word in English. 248 00:13:25,100 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 3: Delicious. 249 00:13:26,420 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: Exactly. And so in French, we have only one word, délice, 250 00:13:30,140 --> 00:13:33,109 Speaker 1: that means both the word delight and the word delicious 251 00:13:33,390 --> 00:13:37,110 Speaker 1: in English. So my French brain can't separate delight from delicious, 252 00:13:37,190 --> 00:13:40,990 Speaker 1: which means I can't separate delight from experience. and specifically 253 00:13:41,110 --> 00:13:44,030 Speaker 1: from taste. And so taste and see that the Lord 254 00:13:44,070 --> 00:13:46,700 Speaker 1: is good in French is literally, like it really makes 255 00:13:46,750 --> 00:13:48,900 Speaker 1: a whole lot of sense because it's, yes, you taste 256 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:53,860 Speaker 1: the deliciousness of delighting in God. Love includes delight. You 257 00:13:53,900 --> 00:13:56,830 Speaker 1: cannot delight in someone if you don't love them. And 258 00:13:56,850 --> 00:13:59,470 Speaker 1: you can't really love someone without delighting in them too, 259 00:13:59,570 --> 00:14:04,110 Speaker 1: because otherwise loving without delight is a decision of the will, 260 00:14:04,470 --> 00:14:06,820 Speaker 1: purely the will. Well, I'm going to love them no 261 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 1: matter what. I'm going to grit my way through this 262 00:14:09,740 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: really hard experience. And this person is really mean to me, 263 00:14:12,300 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 1: but I'm really going to love them through it. That 264 00:14:14,700 --> 00:14:18,219 Speaker 1: is potentially very powerful. But there is no joy there. 265 00:14:18,260 --> 00:14:21,940 Speaker 1: There's no delight there. Delight is the convergence of loving 266 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,990 Speaker 1: someone and liking them too. I remember telling my son, 267 00:14:26,290 --> 00:14:28,510 Speaker 1: he was asking me something similar when he was going 268 00:14:28,530 --> 00:14:31,470 Speaker 1: through the teenage years. And he was asking me if 269 00:14:31,710 --> 00:14:36,150 Speaker 1: love was something he was always supposed to feel towards someone. 270 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: You know, Jesus said, love the Lord your God with 271 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:40,300 Speaker 1: all your might, soul and strength and love your neighbor 272 00:14:40,380 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: as yourself. What happens when you don't really feel like 273 00:14:42,900 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: loving them? Well, that's when you love inaction. But if 274 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:50,690 Speaker 1: as you love inaction, hopefully you're going to start delighting 275 00:14:50,950 --> 00:14:53,590 Speaker 1: in that person. You're going to start liking them and 276 00:14:53,650 --> 00:14:55,910 Speaker 1: not just loving them in some way. 277 00:14:55,930 --> 00:14:59,150 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I was thinking as I was processing through 278 00:14:59,170 --> 00:15:03,030 Speaker 2: all this, I was thinking about Zephaniah 3.17, and I'm 279 00:15:03,210 --> 00:15:05,250 Speaker 2: going to give a little background for listeners. One reason 280 00:15:05,290 --> 00:15:08,630 Speaker 2: I find this such a powerful verse is the context. 281 00:15:08,690 --> 00:15:13,030 Speaker 2: So it was written when ancient Israel refused to obey God. 282 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,140 Speaker 2: They refused to receive correction from him or trust him 283 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:19,700 Speaker 2: or to draw near to him. And in fact, they 284 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,690 Speaker 2: completely rebelled against him. So they were not living as 285 00:15:23,830 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 2: delightful people. And yet he still engaged them. He still 286 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,380 Speaker 2: pursued them. And I'm going to read the verse now. 287 00:15:32,250 --> 00:15:35,750 Speaker 2: And this is the, I believe it's the new English translation, 288 00:15:35,770 --> 00:15:37,980 Speaker 2: but the Lord your God is in your midst. He 289 00:15:38,030 --> 00:15:41,580 Speaker 2: is a warrior who can deliver. He takes great delight 290 00:15:41,740 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 2: in you. He renews you by his love. 291 00:15:44,660 --> 00:15:45,859 Speaker 3: I love this part. 292 00:15:45,900 --> 00:15:50,220 Speaker 2: He shouts for joy over you. And what does that 293 00:15:50,260 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 2: verse mean to you? I think it's one of those 294 00:15:52,870 --> 00:15:53,900 Speaker 2: that I would read. 295 00:15:53,950 --> 00:15:55,870 Speaker 1: I'm a Bible teacher, right? I read the Bible all 296 00:15:55,890 --> 00:15:58,300 Speaker 1: the time. I teach the Bible all the time. And 297 00:15:58,470 --> 00:16:01,170 Speaker 1: I would come across that verse and there was something 298 00:16:01,230 --> 00:16:03,750 Speaker 1: in me that was resisting it for the longest time. 299 00:16:03,870 --> 00:16:07,510 Speaker 1: I just could not bring myself to believing that it's 300 00:16:07,570 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: actually true. And so that was the Holy Spirit saying, well, 301 00:16:11,540 --> 00:16:13,620 Speaker 1: so what are we going to do about that? You 302 00:16:13,660 --> 00:16:16,700 Speaker 1: don't believe this. So what are we doing? And I 303 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: was like, I don't know, Lord, what are we doing? 304 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: You tell me, I don't know. And so it was okay. Lord, 305 00:16:22,180 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: I know you do not lie. I do not want 306 00:16:27,100 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: to call you a liar. That means this verse is true, 307 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:34,390 Speaker 1: but it doesn't feel true. How do we bridge that gap? 308 00:16:34,850 --> 00:16:37,030 Speaker 1: And so it was one of those verses that launched 309 00:16:37,090 --> 00:16:39,890 Speaker 1: me on that quest to understand delight in God. And 310 00:16:39,930 --> 00:16:43,650 Speaker 1: I think, you know, God in his gentleness does not 311 00:16:43,750 --> 00:16:48,740 Speaker 1: drop theological bombs from the sky like Zephaniah 317 without 312 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,100 Speaker 1: gently preparing us for them. And so in this case, 313 00:16:52,530 --> 00:16:57,210 Speaker 1: For me, he used everyday occurrences in my life. He 314 00:16:57,430 --> 00:17:01,370 Speaker 1: used specifically the love of my children to help me understand. 315 00:17:01,510 --> 00:17:04,250 Speaker 1: I've had people tell me that God has used the 316 00:17:04,369 --> 00:17:06,689 Speaker 1: beauty of a flower to talk to them. It can 317 00:17:06,710 --> 00:17:09,250 Speaker 1: be different things. But for me, it was as our 318 00:17:09,290 --> 00:17:11,710 Speaker 1: kids were growing up, both my husband and I come 319 00:17:11,750 --> 00:17:14,730 Speaker 1: from non-believing families. So there's, I mean, I'm not saying 320 00:17:14,750 --> 00:17:17,410 Speaker 1: there's no problems coming from believing families with very little 321 00:17:17,470 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: love in the house. We were trying to raise our 322 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: kids with a very different foundation. And so a verse 323 00:17:23,020 --> 00:17:26,620 Speaker 1: like Zephaniah 317, I remember watching my three or four-year-old 324 00:17:26,660 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 1: daughter and thinking, She really seemed to have no problem 325 00:17:29,700 --> 00:17:32,180 Speaker 1: whatsoever with that verse. She's like, sure, of course, God 326 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: is dancing all around me. He's dancing with me and 327 00:17:34,300 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: he really loves me. And I'm like, wow, like I 328 00:17:36,580 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: kind of want your faith. And we have been teaching 329 00:17:39,820 --> 00:17:43,220 Speaker 1: our kids this fundamental kind of snippet. They've heard it 330 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,109 Speaker 1: so many times. It's hardwired into them. And it is 331 00:17:46,350 --> 00:17:49,030 Speaker 1: this sentence. There's nothing you can do for God to 332 00:17:49,510 --> 00:17:51,709 Speaker 1: love you more. What we mean by that is you 333 00:17:51,750 --> 00:17:55,300 Speaker 1: can't earn God's love. He already loves you. you know, 334 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,660 Speaker 1: to the moon and back and beyond, right? To infinity 335 00:17:58,700 --> 00:18:01,300 Speaker 1: and beyond, whatever imagery you want to use. It doesn't 336 00:18:01,340 --> 00:18:04,290 Speaker 1: matter how good you behave as a Christian. It doesn't 337 00:18:04,330 --> 00:18:07,150 Speaker 1: matter whether you check the spiritual to-do list of all 338 00:18:07,170 --> 00:18:08,929 Speaker 1: the things you're supposed to do to be a good Christian, 339 00:18:08,990 --> 00:18:11,730 Speaker 1: quote unquote. None of that is going to make him 340 00:18:11,790 --> 00:18:14,790 Speaker 1: love you an iota more than he already does because 341 00:18:15,109 --> 00:18:18,710 Speaker 1: he already loves you to the maximum of his infinite 342 00:18:18,770 --> 00:18:21,570 Speaker 1: ability to love, which is a lot. We can't wrap 343 00:18:21,630 --> 00:18:24,409 Speaker 1: our heads around infinity and that's how much he loves us. 344 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,310 Speaker 1: So you don't need to perform for him. The flip 345 00:18:27,350 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: side is there's nothing you can do for God to 346 00:18:30,290 --> 00:18:33,590 Speaker 1: love you less. Meaning by that, on the worst day 347 00:18:33,630 --> 00:18:36,490 Speaker 1: of your life, when you mess up terribly, when you 348 00:18:36,590 --> 00:18:40,590 Speaker 1: completely blow up your life, God will not love you 349 00:18:40,710 --> 00:18:43,210 Speaker 1: less for that. There's nothing you can do for him 350 00:18:43,510 --> 00:18:45,890 Speaker 1: to have less love for you because he loves you 351 00:18:45,950 --> 00:18:48,389 Speaker 1: to the moon and back already. And so when you 352 00:18:48,430 --> 00:18:51,210 Speaker 1: believe that, there's nothing you need to do to earn 353 00:18:51,270 --> 00:18:55,360 Speaker 1: his love. And there's absolutely nothing, no sin you can 354 00:18:55,420 --> 00:18:59,640 Speaker 1: commit that will make him love you less. Once that 355 00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: becomes your framework, Zephaniah 3.17 suddenly makes obvious sense. And 356 00:19:05,580 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 1: so as we were teaching our children to live like that, 357 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 1: I think I was the one who needed the teaching 358 00:19:12,330 --> 00:19:15,070 Speaker 1: more than they did probably. And so God in his 359 00:19:15,130 --> 00:19:19,210 Speaker 1: gentleness used our parenting skills. to parent me. 360 00:19:19,230 --> 00:19:20,570 Speaker 3: I love that. Yeah. 361 00:19:20,710 --> 00:19:22,620 Speaker 2: And I also like how you talked about that you 362 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:27,020 Speaker 2: experienced resistance for some of our listeners, especially if they 363 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:31,700 Speaker 2: experienced abuse growing up. This might actually freak them out 364 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,859 Speaker 2: a bit because they learned that people saying they loved 365 00:19:35,900 --> 00:19:40,409 Speaker 2: them or that they delighted them could lead to pain. 366 00:19:40,609 --> 00:19:44,310 Speaker 2: I just want to give a little invitation that it's okay. 367 00:19:44,710 --> 00:19:46,750 Speaker 3: Like Stephanie, she said it took her a decade. It 368 00:19:46,850 --> 00:19:50,409 Speaker 3: might take you longer. It might take you less time. 369 00:19:50,570 --> 00:19:51,450 Speaker 3: Only God knows. 370 00:19:51,770 --> 00:19:56,230 Speaker 2: But when you experience that resistance within, there's a reason. 371 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 2: It's not sin. It's not that you're trying to keep 372 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 2: God at bay. And it's not that he's disappointed in 373 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,100 Speaker 2: you because you struggle to heal, really, if you want 374 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 2: to phrase it that way. And so I would just 375 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:11,950 Speaker 2: encourage you to keep pressing in. And if you feel 376 00:20:12,250 --> 00:20:17,010 Speaker 2: anxious or fearful, recognize, okay, that's a wound that the 377 00:20:17,050 --> 00:20:20,649 Speaker 2: Lord is allowing to surface and invite him into that. 378 00:20:20,890 --> 00:20:22,410 Speaker 3: And maybe focus. 379 00:20:22,109 --> 00:20:26,620 Speaker 2: On Zephaniah 3.17 and ask God to make it land deep. 380 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 2: We're going to take a quick break, but when we return, 381 00:20:30,859 --> 00:20:34,700 Speaker 2: we're going to talk about how receiving God's delight changes 382 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,550 Speaker 2: our interaction with him and really how it can lead. 383 00:20:37,369 --> 00:20:40,420 Speaker 3: To increased joy. healing so we'll be back. 384 00:20:49,859 --> 00:20:52,180 Speaker 1: All right, we are back. 385 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,580 Speaker 2: We've talked about before the break that this is a 386 00:20:54,660 --> 00:20:57,449 Speaker 2: difficult issue to really have it sink in. But I'm 387 00:20:57,810 --> 00:21:02,310 Speaker 2: curious to know, particularly in your life, how has your 388 00:21:02,690 --> 00:21:05,109 Speaker 2: understanding that God delights in you, how has that shifted 389 00:21:05,150 --> 00:21:06,490 Speaker 2: how you relate to him? 390 00:21:07,130 --> 00:21:10,609 Speaker 1: Because I was very performance oriented, I've learned to be 391 00:21:10,650 --> 00:21:14,130 Speaker 1: a lot more chill. It's almost uncanny for this control 392 00:21:14,190 --> 00:21:18,030 Speaker 1: freak type A girl to really just chill. And let 393 00:21:18,090 --> 00:21:21,530 Speaker 1: him do what only he can do and to rest 394 00:21:21,670 --> 00:21:23,950 Speaker 1: in his love. I think rest has been one of 395 00:21:23,990 --> 00:21:28,669 Speaker 1: the greatest changes. The ability just to rest, to trust 396 00:21:28,869 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: that he's got this. And if I cannot disappoint him, 397 00:21:32,580 --> 00:21:36,900 Speaker 1: if it's actually impossible for me to disappoint him, then 398 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,140 Speaker 1: there's maybe a few balls I can let drop. 399 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 2: Can you explain that? Because you and I had a 400 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:49,149 Speaker 2: conversation outside of this recording yesterday. that I found profound regarding, 401 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 2: especially for those who are like, I feel like I've 402 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,659 Speaker 2: disappointed God. So can you explain what you mean when 403 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 2: you say it's impossible to disappoint? 404 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: Theologically speaking, and I'm just going to put on a 405 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,330 Speaker 1: Bible teacher hat for a second and go theologically speaking. 406 00:22:02,570 --> 00:22:04,389 Speaker 1: I'm going to remove the emotions out of the way. 407 00:22:04,790 --> 00:22:09,169 Speaker 1: So intellectually speaking... I think it's impossible to disappoint God. 408 00:22:09,530 --> 00:22:12,710 Speaker 1: Let me explain. We get disappointed by our own sin 409 00:22:12,730 --> 00:22:15,709 Speaker 1: a lot. I get disappointed in my behavior or my 410 00:22:15,810 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: thoughts or my actions constantly because I have extremely high 411 00:22:20,740 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: performance syndrome and I just want to perform. I'm a perfectionist. 412 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: And so if I don't do something really to the 413 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,540 Speaker 1: best of my ability and then probably a little better 414 00:22:29,580 --> 00:22:31,900 Speaker 1: than that, I'm going to be disappointed. So there's this 415 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: idea of really high standards. Now, God clearly has very 416 00:22:34,820 --> 00:22:38,970 Speaker 1: high standards. That's the problem. We assume... If we're disappointed 417 00:22:39,010 --> 00:22:42,209 Speaker 1: in ourselves, clearly God must be disappointed in us. The 418 00:22:42,290 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: reason why it's impossible, theologically speaking, is because disappointment requires 419 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: an element of surprise. If you already know you're going 420 00:22:51,580 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: to behave poorly, then you're not going to be disappointed 421 00:22:54,420 --> 00:22:56,620 Speaker 1: by it when you do so. The reason why we 422 00:22:56,700 --> 00:22:59,540 Speaker 1: are disappointed in ourselves, whether it be our sin or 423 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,170 Speaker 1: just our performance isn't to the level that we were 424 00:23:02,210 --> 00:23:05,290 Speaker 1: expecting at, it's because we didn't think we would do it. 425 00:23:05,650 --> 00:23:08,690 Speaker 1: We thought we could manage to not sin. So when 426 00:23:08,750 --> 00:23:11,250 Speaker 1: we do blow it, when we do sin, we are 427 00:23:11,390 --> 00:23:14,409 Speaker 1: kind of shocked by ourselves, by our ability to do that. 428 00:23:14,780 --> 00:23:18,379 Speaker 1: we are disappointed in ourselves because we didn't know we 429 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,459 Speaker 1: were going to do that. But God did. God already 430 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,660 Speaker 1: knew we were going to sin because God knows everything. 431 00:23:25,740 --> 00:23:29,179 Speaker 1: God is outside of time. God sees past, present, and 432 00:23:29,290 --> 00:23:32,010 Speaker 1: future all at once as if it's just one image. 433 00:23:32,050 --> 00:23:34,790 Speaker 1: He can see the chronology of time in real time 434 00:23:35,070 --> 00:23:37,909 Speaker 1: all the time. So he sees you today with the 435 00:23:37,990 --> 00:23:41,609 Speaker 1: same clarity he saw you yesterday and And he sees 436 00:23:41,650 --> 00:23:44,360 Speaker 1: you with the same clarity that you will be tomorrow. 437 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: In other words, he already knows how you are going 438 00:23:47,340 --> 00:23:51,460 Speaker 1: to sin tomorrow. You don't, but he does. And he's 439 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,199 Speaker 1: not disappointed in you because he already knows. There's no 440 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,820 Speaker 1: disappointment there. Now, where it gets crazy is that God 441 00:23:57,980 --> 00:24:01,310 Speaker 1: knew this before you were born. He knew it before 442 00:24:01,380 --> 00:24:04,530 Speaker 1: he even created time and space and created the heavens 443 00:24:04,570 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: and the earth. He already knew. that today or yesterday 444 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,060 Speaker 1: you would commit a sin that you are so disappointed in. 445 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,930 Speaker 1: And that is why Jesus accepted before the foundation of time, 446 00:24:17,270 --> 00:24:21,050 Speaker 1: for the joy set before him, he within the Godhead, Father, Son, 447 00:24:21,109 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: and Holy Spirit, before the creation of time and space, 448 00:24:24,190 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: the Godhead decided... That out of love, out of an 449 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:32,230 Speaker 1: abundance of delight in us, the son would die so 450 00:24:32,250 --> 00:24:35,030 Speaker 1: that our sins would not be imputed to us, but 451 00:24:35,150 --> 00:24:39,109 Speaker 1: instead the righteousness of God. So before time was a thing, 452 00:24:39,550 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 1: the cross was already decided, which means it's already taken 453 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:45,460 Speaker 1: care of. And I can't. 454 00:24:45,700 --> 00:24:49,100 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and I think too, when we focus on 455 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,070 Speaker 2: our connection with God, the guidance and the solutions come. 456 00:24:53,090 --> 00:24:55,030 Speaker 2: A lot of times we'll get that backwards and we'll 457 00:24:55,050 --> 00:24:58,030 Speaker 2: focus like, tell me what to do and fix this problem. 458 00:24:58,070 --> 00:24:59,870 Speaker 2: And that can get in the way of us just 459 00:25:00,030 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 2: experiencing him. And I think the more we experience his love, 460 00:25:03,700 --> 00:25:07,139 Speaker 2: his gentleness, his faithfulness, the easier it is to trust 461 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 2: him and to follow him. 462 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:10,699 Speaker 3: And I do want to talk about. 463 00:25:11,060 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 2: As we wind things down to a close, there is 464 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:18,870 Speaker 2: an important element to our spiritual health, but I think 465 00:25:18,900 --> 00:25:21,869 Speaker 2: sometimes we get this flipped wrong a little as well. 466 00:25:22,210 --> 00:25:24,650 Speaker 3: Confession is important. Essential. 467 00:25:25,050 --> 00:25:27,510 Speaker 2: It is essential, but how I view it, because you've 468 00:25:27,530 --> 00:25:30,129 Speaker 2: talked about Christ already paid for our sins. So it's 469 00:25:30,250 --> 00:25:33,850 Speaker 2: not like we're actually receiving. 470 00:25:33,490 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 3: This absolution all over again. 471 00:25:35,340 --> 00:25:38,780 Speaker 2: It's more, in my perspective, it's more that we're getting 472 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,260 Speaker 2: this clean slate where we can walk forward in grace. 473 00:25:41,300 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 3: But I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. 474 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,659 Speaker 1: I completely agree. I think it's in Christ, there is 475 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,619 Speaker 1: now no condemnation, Romans 8, 1. But coming to God 476 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: with our sin and ask him personally, for, you know, 477 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,100 Speaker 1: confessing our sin, turning from it in repentance and welcoming 478 00:25:57,140 --> 00:25:59,590 Speaker 1: his forgiveness. I think that's the thing that I wasn't 479 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:01,689 Speaker 1: good at doing at first. I had to learn to 480 00:26:01,710 --> 00:26:04,510 Speaker 1: do was I was very good at confessing my sin. 481 00:26:05,010 --> 00:26:08,310 Speaker 1: But I had this inability to actually receive his forgiveness. 482 00:26:08,510 --> 00:26:11,170 Speaker 1: Back to the whole trauma childhood thing, if you want. 483 00:26:11,190 --> 00:26:14,270 Speaker 1: But that was the harder part. And so it's this, 484 00:26:14,670 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 1: I think that's what confession does, is that you tell 485 00:26:17,150 --> 00:26:20,060 Speaker 1: God how you messed up. He already knows, but it's 486 00:26:20,140 --> 00:26:22,980 Speaker 1: teaching you to come to him and trust. He is safe. 487 00:26:23,180 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: He can take it. He's not surprised. He's not disappointed. 488 00:26:27,020 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: It is perfectly safe to go to him and tell 489 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,980 Speaker 1: him how you are so disappointed in yourself. how you 490 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: are so surprised by what you've done. And he takes 491 00:26:36,180 --> 00:26:40,429 Speaker 1: it and instead he offers his forgiveness and not the 492 00:26:40,490 --> 00:26:44,129 Speaker 1: forgiveness of someone who's annoyed at you and who is 493 00:26:44,170 --> 00:26:47,470 Speaker 1: just kind of snapping you aside or is just dismissed. 494 00:26:47,590 --> 00:26:50,709 Speaker 1: There's not, it's not a dismissive of forgiveness. It is 495 00:26:50,869 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: a loving, delighted embrace. It's the story of the prodigal, 496 00:26:55,060 --> 00:26:57,340 Speaker 1: the father who's running out to meet the son and 497 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,260 Speaker 1: And a father in ancient times did not run. I mean, 498 00:27:00,300 --> 00:27:02,139 Speaker 1: the fact that the father is running to meet the 499 00:27:02,180 --> 00:27:06,310 Speaker 1: son is this desperation of forgiving and of delighting in 500 00:27:06,350 --> 00:27:09,690 Speaker 1: the son. That's us. And to learn to receive that 501 00:27:09,890 --> 00:27:13,690 Speaker 1: for me is harder than confessing my sin. But you 502 00:27:13,750 --> 00:27:16,870 Speaker 1: can't receive the forgiveness unless you've come to the father 503 00:27:17,150 --> 00:27:20,940 Speaker 1: asking for his forgiveness, which is why this is not transactional. 504 00:27:21,020 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: It's teaching our own hearts. To receive the forgiveness, because 505 00:27:25,220 --> 00:27:29,780 Speaker 1: without forgiveness, there is no Zephaniah 317. In order for 506 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: us to start actually believing with our hearts, with our lives, 507 00:27:33,500 --> 00:27:37,050 Speaker 1: that the father sings over us with delight and he 508 00:27:37,460 --> 00:27:40,470 Speaker 1: runs around us in circles of joy and just having 509 00:27:40,510 --> 00:27:43,770 Speaker 1: so much fun with us. That requires knowing we are forgiven. 510 00:27:43,990 --> 00:27:46,670 Speaker 1: And we don't know we're forgiven if we don't confess 511 00:27:46,730 --> 00:27:50,909 Speaker 1: our sins. So it's this dance of confessing and turning 512 00:27:50,990 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: away and receiving the forgiveness so that the joy and 513 00:27:54,020 --> 00:27:56,300 Speaker 1: the delight of the Father can become a reality. 514 00:27:56,420 --> 00:27:57,540 Speaker 3: I actually have a story. 515 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,340 Speaker 2: There was somebody in my life who was living a 516 00:28:01,580 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 2: lifestyle that was really, really dark. And I became aware 517 00:28:05,859 --> 00:28:08,230 Speaker 2: of it. I felt like it was God's grace brought it. 518 00:28:08,550 --> 00:28:11,609 Speaker 2: to my attention before the individual came to me. It 519 00:28:11,630 --> 00:28:14,710 Speaker 2: was about, I want to say, about a six-month period 520 00:28:14,910 --> 00:28:19,659 Speaker 2: where I knew about this lifestyle, and it came to 521 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,580 Speaker 2: the point where this individual told me, and I was 522 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,810 Speaker 2: able to say, I know, but what happened in that 523 00:28:25,910 --> 00:28:28,969 Speaker 2: moment in my brain was was like, and now we 524 00:28:28,990 --> 00:28:31,590 Speaker 2: don't have this shame separating us. Now we don't have 525 00:28:31,650 --> 00:28:34,610 Speaker 2: the secrets. Now we don't have the hiding. Our relationship 526 00:28:34,770 --> 00:28:39,140 Speaker 2: now is able to reach a different level because you've 527 00:28:39,180 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 2: shown me more of yourself. That didn't mean I thought 528 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 2: what they were doing was great. It broke my heart 529 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 2: because I knew where it was leading, but I wasn't angry. 530 00:28:47,540 --> 00:28:50,810 Speaker 2: I wasn't withholding from them. 531 00:28:51,070 --> 00:28:54,350 Speaker 1: And the powerful piece in what you're describing among others 532 00:28:54,510 --> 00:28:57,030 Speaker 1: is that You had known for six months and they 533 00:28:57,070 --> 00:29:00,090 Speaker 1: didn't know you knew. And yet you treated them the 534 00:29:00,130 --> 00:29:03,750 Speaker 1: same when they were probably expecting you to change your behavior. 535 00:29:03,890 --> 00:29:06,810 Speaker 1: Once they knew, once you knew, you know, once they 536 00:29:06,850 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: told you, they thought you were going to find out 537 00:29:08,620 --> 00:29:11,340 Speaker 1: through them. And it's exactly that way with God. I mean, 538 00:29:11,380 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: God has already known how you messed up. Even if 539 00:29:13,740 --> 00:29:16,460 Speaker 1: you haven't told him, he knows. So he's not disappointed. 540 00:29:16,500 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: He's still treating you the same way in Christ Jesus. 541 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,270 Speaker 1: He's not disappointed. That's the powerful thing. The fact that 542 00:29:21,330 --> 00:29:23,990 Speaker 1: God gave you the grace to love on this person 543 00:29:24,030 --> 00:29:26,730 Speaker 1: for six months and before they knew. And when they 544 00:29:26,750 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: found out you have known all along, but you're still 545 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: loving to them, that is so powerful. 546 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,220 Speaker 2: Right. Well, and I think the other important piece of 547 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:40,430 Speaker 2: that is through that interaction, the biggest ache on my 548 00:29:40,530 --> 00:29:44,130 Speaker 2: heart was just, was wanting to display that this person 549 00:29:44,170 --> 00:29:47,980 Speaker 2: was not their behavior. So by, by bringing their behavior 550 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 2: to the light, we were able to say, okay, let's 551 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:52,020 Speaker 2: remove that. 552 00:29:52,300 --> 00:29:55,180 Speaker 3: There is still love delight in this. 553 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:59,150 Speaker 2: And, and Kind of piggybacking on your conversation just thus far, 554 00:29:59,510 --> 00:30:02,980 Speaker 2: healing isn't about simply believing true things about God. It's 555 00:30:03,100 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 2: allowing those truths to sink really deep in our souls 556 00:30:07,220 --> 00:30:11,820 Speaker 2: where our wounds and our faulty images lie. And we're 557 00:30:11,860 --> 00:30:14,490 Speaker 2: going to have to land our plane. Stephanie and I 558 00:30:14,530 --> 00:30:16,650 Speaker 2: could talk forever. You're going to have to go to 559 00:30:16,750 --> 00:30:19,390 Speaker 2: her website or to her podcast, which I'll put in 560 00:30:19,430 --> 00:30:22,030 Speaker 2: the show notes, because we had a conversation on the 561 00:30:22,050 --> 00:30:24,610 Speaker 2: same topic, but a little different. So, and actually, I 562 00:30:25,050 --> 00:30:27,410 Speaker 2: know this is an issue you are really, really, really, 563 00:30:27,430 --> 00:30:31,330 Speaker 2: really passionate about. And along those lines, you have created 564 00:30:31,350 --> 00:30:34,170 Speaker 2: a free resource. I would love if you would tell 565 00:30:34,340 --> 00:30:36,060 Speaker 2: listeners about that, where to find it. 566 00:30:36,260 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: Thank you. 567 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:36,940 Speaker 2: Yeah. 568 00:30:36,980 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: So Anyone who's a little intrigued by what we're discussing, 569 00:30:40,340 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: whether it feels foreign or almost scary, or you're ready 570 00:30:44,220 --> 00:30:48,140 Speaker 1: to maybe dip your toes, but not quite too much. 571 00:30:48,500 --> 00:30:51,770 Speaker 1: Maybe you're not completely sure this is legit. That's fine. 572 00:30:51,900 --> 00:30:54,570 Speaker 1: I get it. So I have this resource I would 573 00:30:54,630 --> 00:30:57,750 Speaker 1: love for you to take advantage of. It's a five-day 574 00:30:57,950 --> 00:31:00,850 Speaker 1: email devotional where for five days, I'm going to send 575 00:31:00,890 --> 00:31:04,450 Speaker 1: you an email every day. And it has a short 576 00:31:04,650 --> 00:31:08,140 Speaker 1: to the point little piece on... delighting in God, why 577 00:31:08,830 --> 00:31:12,070 Speaker 1: it's beautiful, why it's really difficult, and then some really 578 00:31:12,350 --> 00:31:16,650 Speaker 1: simple practical applications, a few Bible verses. It's extremely Bible-centric. 579 00:31:16,850 --> 00:31:20,460 Speaker 1: And the goal is that hopefully it's going to warm 580 00:31:20,500 --> 00:31:23,700 Speaker 1: your heart a little bit to want to dare to 581 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: trust God with whatever He might have for you and 582 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 1: teach you to delight in Him as He delights in you. 583 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:35,020 Speaker 1: So that's available for you at gospelspice.com. slash faith over fear. 584 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,780 Speaker 1: And you can just sign up and I just need 585 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,140 Speaker 1: your name and email. And because I think it's kind 586 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: of fun to have to receive gifts. One of you 587 00:31:43,180 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: among the entries, just for Jennifer's podcast, you, one of 588 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,770 Speaker 1: you will be drawn from the entries to win an 589 00:31:48,970 --> 00:31:53,330 Speaker 1: actual giveaway prize made among other things, made with a 590 00:31:53,410 --> 00:31:56,340 Speaker 1: piece of jewelry made by survivors of human trafficking. Because 591 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,060 Speaker 1: one of the ways we discover that we delight in 592 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: the Lord is when we want to come alongside others 593 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: who are struggling in life. And for me, it's people 594 00:32:03,860 --> 00:32:06,590 Speaker 1: who struggle with human trafficking. And so we partner with 595 00:32:06,610 --> 00:32:09,530 Speaker 1: organizations that do that. And so I'd love to gift 596 00:32:09,910 --> 00:32:11,650 Speaker 1: one of you with a piece of jewelry and a 597 00:32:11,690 --> 00:32:14,150 Speaker 1: prayer journal and some more items. All the details are 598 00:32:14,260 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: at gospelspice.com slash faithoverfear. 599 00:32:17,420 --> 00:32:19,340 Speaker 2: Awesome. And I'll put that in the show notes. Another 600 00:32:19,420 --> 00:32:23,170 Speaker 2: great resource, obviously, is her book. So again, it's titled 601 00:32:23,310 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 2: Awaken Delight. satisfying your soul's longing for God. So let 602 00:32:27,100 --> 00:32:29,500 Speaker 2: me read a little from the back cover. What if 603 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,060 Speaker 2: the Christian life was never meant to feel like an 604 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,580 Speaker 2: endless cycle of trying harder, doing more, and wondering why 605 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,670 Speaker 2: joy remains out of reach? In Awakened Delight, French author 606 00:32:40,690 --> 00:32:45,310 Speaker 2: Stephanie Roussel invites weary Christians to rediscover the beauty of 607 00:32:45,370 --> 00:32:48,990 Speaker 2: God with biblical depth, honest storytelling, and a distinctly French 608 00:32:49,290 --> 00:32:53,340 Speaker 2: appreciation of For wonder and delight, she reveals a God 609 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,660 Speaker 2: who is not only true, but captivating, not only worthy 610 00:32:56,700 --> 00:33:01,340 Speaker 2: of obedience, but worthy of enjoyment. If you felt spiritually dry, 611 00:33:01,460 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 2: trapped in performance, or hungry for more of God's presence, 612 00:33:05,060 --> 00:33:08,850 Speaker 2: this book offers a fresh invitation to taste and see 613 00:33:09,010 --> 00:33:11,250 Speaker 2: that he is better than you remembered. I want to 614 00:33:11,370 --> 00:33:13,330 Speaker 2: add one thing because I have read the book. For 615 00:33:13,370 --> 00:33:15,230 Speaker 2: you listeners who are like, well, I've got chronic illness, 616 00:33:15,270 --> 00:33:19,170 Speaker 2: I've got hardship, I've got all of these really difficult things. 617 00:33:19,250 --> 00:33:21,190 Speaker 2: How does it apply to me? You got to read 618 00:33:21,210 --> 00:33:24,270 Speaker 2: the book, but Stephanie gets that. She's walked through her 619 00:33:24,330 --> 00:33:27,870 Speaker 2: own journey of really hard things. And I suspect it's 620 00:33:27,890 --> 00:33:32,110 Speaker 2: been the delight of the Lord that has carried her. 621 00:33:32,370 --> 00:33:35,750 Speaker 2: And as we close, I encourage you to pause to 622 00:33:35,790 --> 00:33:40,210 Speaker 2: consider this question. What might your life and relationship with 623 00:33:40,330 --> 00:33:44,690 Speaker 2: God and others look like? If you learn to live 624 00:33:44,890 --> 00:33:48,290 Speaker 2: from a place of delight where you knew deep in 625 00:33:48,330 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 2: your soul that you held value, that you're not too 626 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,180 Speaker 2: much or insufficient, but a delight, that the one who 627 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 2: formed you and knows everything about you and therefore has 628 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 2: the authority to define your worth delights in you, how 629 00:34:00,660 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 2: might that speak to your insecurity and your response to 630 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:09,150 Speaker 2: human rejection or fear of rejection? How might that increase 631 00:34:09,190 --> 00:34:12,129 Speaker 2: your sense of joy and peace. Stephanie, this has been 632 00:34:12,510 --> 00:34:15,050 Speaker 2: such a great conversation. 633 00:34:15,250 --> 00:34:17,910 Speaker 1: Thank you, Jennifer. Oh my goodness. Thank you so much. 634 00:34:18,210 --> 00:34:20,450 Speaker 2: As we close to our listeners, I invite you to 635 00:34:20,489 --> 00:34:25,150 Speaker 2: spend time this week asking yourself that question and inviting 636 00:34:25,170 --> 00:34:27,509 Speaker 2: God to reveal the answer because he knows more about 637 00:34:27,550 --> 00:34:30,950 Speaker 2: you than you know about yourself, including what you most 638 00:34:31,010 --> 00:34:32,060 Speaker 2: need to thrive. 639 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,060 Speaker 3: And before God. 640 00:34:33,980 --> 00:34:37,260 Speaker 2: Asks anything from us, he welcomes us near. The deepest 641 00:34:37,300 --> 00:34:39,900 Speaker 2: spiritual growth begins not with striving, but with resting in 642 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:44,320 Speaker 2: the Father's delight. And I encourage you to subscribe to 643 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,110 Speaker 2: this podcast if you haven't already done so, then you 644 00:34:47,150 --> 00:34:50,670 Speaker 2: won't miss a single episode. Share this one particularly with 645 00:34:50,690 --> 00:34:54,390 Speaker 2: your friends, your loved ones, your journey group who really 646 00:34:54,430 --> 00:34:57,910 Speaker 2: maybe is struggling with shame or feeling like they have value, 647 00:34:58,030 --> 00:35:00,850 Speaker 2: struggling to receive God's delight. 648 00:35:01,050 --> 00:35:01,760 Speaker 3: And listen again. 649 00:35:02,710 --> 00:35:05,140 Speaker 2: And until next time, may you live as one who 650 00:35:05,219 --> 00:35:06,950 Speaker 2: truly has been set free.