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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Confessions of a Christian

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Speaker 2: Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel. This is

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Speaker 2: your home for real stories, radical vulnerability, and remarkable comebacks.

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Speaker 2: In the end, this podcast is a place for the desperate,

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Speaker 2: the downtrodden, the destitute, and especially the drunk.

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Speaker 3: But it's also a place of hope and healing.

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Speaker 2: I know that firsthand because I'm the Christian who became

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Speaker 2: an alcoholic, not the other way around. Today I've found

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Speaker 2: sobriety after decades of struggling. But more importantly than finding sobriety,

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Speaker 2: I found Jesus.

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Speaker 3: My prayer is.

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Speaker 2: That as I interview people just like you and just

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Speaker 2: like me, along with professionals in the fields of trauma,

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Speaker 2: faith and addiction recovery, you will find the piece that

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Speaker 2: is available to you through Christ on the other side

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Speaker 2: of whatever you're going through and whatever addiction that might be.

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Speaker 2: Because let's face it, we're all addicted to something so welcome,

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Speaker 2: let's get radically vulnerable as we explore what it looks

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Speaker 2: like to be on this journey of MESSI sanctification.

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Speaker 3: We'll be right back after this.

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Speaker 2: A poison disguised as a remedy that is how our

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Speaker 2: guest today describes alcohol. And she would know because she

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Speaker 2: is the journalist, the mom, the DC powerful woman who's

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Speaker 2: succumbed to the sirens song of addiction, specifically regarding alcohol.

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Speaker 2: Her name is Erica Anderson, and she has become a

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Speaker 2: dear friend of mine. She has been so encouraging in

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Speaker 2: my own journey, in my own book, and I am

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Speaker 2: excited today to introduce her to you and introduce you

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Speaker 2: to her new book called Freely Sober. If you're watching

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Speaker 2: the podcast, which you can do on the Veritas Daily

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Speaker 2: dot com, everyone who is a pain subscriber there gets

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Speaker 2: the chance to watch this podcast. Her book is out

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Speaker 2: this week, Freely Sober, and it came out Tuesday.

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Speaker 3: And you can pick it up and it is.

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Speaker 2: She's been calling it this sister book to my book,

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Speaker 2: and I think that's a great way to put it.

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Speaker 2: And so she especially targets women, and it is the

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Speaker 2: subtitle is Rethinking Alcohol through the Lens of Faith, And

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Speaker 2: I think that's a really good question. What does it

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Speaker 2: look like, what does it mean to rethink your relationship

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Speaker 2: with alcohol through the lens of faith? And so we're

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Speaker 2: going to talk to Erica about that today, and this

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Speaker 2: book is filled with so many great nuggets, not only

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Speaker 2: that part about alcohol being a poison disguised as a remedy,

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Speaker 2: but even this, I love this. She quotes the poet W.

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Speaker 2: H Auden who once noted that all sins tend to

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Speaker 2: be addictive. And so I think, if you're listening to

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Speaker 2: this podcast, like maybe alcohol is the issue that you

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Speaker 2: think or that you've realized is tripping you up. But

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Speaker 2: maybe you're listening to this and I get, you know,

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Speaker 2: messages and comments from people all the time who their

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Speaker 2: struggle isn't alcohol, it's food. Their struggle isn't alcohol, it

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Speaker 2: is body image. Their struggle isn't alcohol, it is work,

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Speaker 2: it is fill in the blank. And I think Erica's

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Speaker 2: book can help you along that journey, whether it's alcohol

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Speaker 2: or not. And so I'm excited to talk with her.

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Speaker 2: There are so many good things that she is going

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Speaker 2: to discuss, not only her own story, but how she

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Speaker 2: really came to understand that misordered, disordered relationship with alcohol. So,

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Speaker 2: without further ado, let's get into it with Erica Anderson. Erica,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining the Confessions of a

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Speaker 2: Christian Alcoholic podcast. I have just really enjoyed the opportunity

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Speaker 2: to get to know you over the last six months

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Speaker 2: or so, and it's just such a treat.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Yeah, thank you.

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Speaker 4: I always think I can't believe we never met along

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Speaker 4: the way because we were in similar industries prior to

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Speaker 4: this and we just never sort of crossed paths.

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Speaker 2: But here we are, right, I kind of I kind

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Speaker 2: of talk about myself and like them, I'm someone who's

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Speaker 2: recovering from being in the news field.

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Speaker 3: You still dabble in it, yes, which.

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Speaker 2: I have so much respect for because you know, there

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Speaker 2: are It's actually a really great a way to talk

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Speaker 2: about drinking, because like there are some people who I know,

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Speaker 2: like can have one drink and they're great.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: I know that I can't if I were. You know,

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Speaker 2: every time I've tried to like step my toe back

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Speaker 2: into the news business, it's it just like sucks me in.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, back who I become?

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Speaker 4: Right, it was rough prior to the election. I was

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Speaker 4: getting a little obsessive, but it's toned down now that

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Speaker 4: like we're kind of out of that. I'm like, okay,

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Speaker 4: back to normal life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, right, exactly.

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Speaker 2: So let's actually kind of start with a little bit

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Speaker 2: of background or who you are, and then I want

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Speaker 2: to get into your story. You know, I think people

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Speaker 2: may not like like you have been writing about alcohol

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Speaker 2: in the church, I think longer than I have. And

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Speaker 2: you've done some amazing things, amazing articles with Christianity today

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Speaker 2: and whatnot. So give people just a little bit of

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Speaker 2: background overall of who you are, and then let's get

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Speaker 2: into your story.

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Speaker 3: Sure.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So I live in Indianapolis, Indiana. I lived here

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Speaker 4: with my husband and I two kids, and grew up

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Speaker 4: in Indiana, but spent ten years in DC working in

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Speaker 4: the political sphere as we were talking about, But always

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Speaker 4: been a writer and have had the good fortune of

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Speaker 4: freelance writing a lot.

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Speaker 1: I've written two books.

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Speaker 4: I have a third book coming up, and it's been,

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Speaker 4: honestly such a blessing from God that He has given

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Speaker 4: me this ability and the opportunities to do it. And

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Speaker 4: you know, just you know, so four years ago when

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Speaker 4: I quit drinking, and who knew it would last this long?

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Speaker 4: You know, when I did, ultimately I sort of had

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Speaker 4: the prompting or the courage or whatever it took to

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Speaker 4: start talking about it more publicly. And it was slow

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Speaker 4: at first, but slowly it got bigger and bigger, and

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Speaker 4: now I'm to the point where I talk about it

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Speaker 4: all the time. So that's the short story of me.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's funny. I heard someone joke about us

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Speaker 2: people who are in recovery or whatever term you want

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Speaker 2: to use. Some people don't like that term. Some people

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Speaker 2: love that term. It's just the term I've come to

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Speaker 2: use because it seems more uni versual button right that, like,

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Speaker 2: how do you how do you know? I think the

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Speaker 2: joke was said like this, like, how do you know

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Speaker 2: someone's a recovering alcoholic? It's like because they'll tell you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I heard that one about CrossFit too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, exactly.

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Speaker 2: So all right, so you you alluded to this four

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Speaker 2: years ago, I guess going around five years now.

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Speaker 3: By the time this airs is you gave up drinking.

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Speaker 2: And I'd love to you to walk us through and

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Speaker 2: really that, you know, especially for the audience, because I

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Speaker 2: just believe strongly that one of the reasons I have

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Speaker 2: so many people tell their stories is because while some

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Speaker 2: of them are similar, there's always little differences and nuances

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Speaker 2: that I really hope someone listening to I see myself

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Speaker 2: in that.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that was me, right, So take us back to

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Speaker 3: the beginning.

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Speaker 2: You you know, you grew up with, you know, a

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Speaker 2: relationship with alcohol.

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Speaker 3: What what did that look like?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well I grew up in a house where my

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Speaker 4: dad drank my mom didn't, and but it was never

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Speaker 4: like a huge issue like my dad does, I think

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Speaker 4: drink too much, But it's not like he's a problem

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Speaker 4: alcoholic or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: So it was just a very normal thing in my house.

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Speaker 4: And I just, you know, like a lot of teenagers

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Speaker 4: like drink, started drinking when I was about sixteen or seventeen.

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Speaker 4: But even then I could feel like I had I

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Speaker 4: was I've always been a Christian and I've always been

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Speaker 4: like a good Christian girl, you know, And so even

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Speaker 4: then it wasn't like a couple SIPs of alcohol, like

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Speaker 4: you know, the first time that I really overindulged, I

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Speaker 4: knew it was wrong to do that. Like I just

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Speaker 4: knew from being a Christian that like drunkenness is a sin.

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Speaker 4: And so there was an immediate conflict of interest and

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Speaker 4: like friction in who I was at the very core

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Speaker 4: the first.

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Speaker 1: Time that I did that.

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Speaker 4: But I just sort of and for many years after

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Speaker 4: that would just sort of ignore that part of me

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Speaker 4: that said don't do that. But by the end of

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Speaker 4: high school, so like only a year and a half

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Speaker 4: after I had first really done that, I was going

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Speaker 4: I need to quit drinking, Like.

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Speaker 1: This is bad.

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Speaker 4: Like and so it's like even at eighteen years old,

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Speaker 4: I had started to say this, and so I had

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Speaker 4: you know, I'm going to go to a Christian college

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Speaker 4: and I'm going to totally you know, devote my life

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Speaker 4: back to Jesus. Well that did not happen. I ended

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Speaker 4: up not going to Christian college, went to Indiana University

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Speaker 4: and had a pretty i would say pretty typical college

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Speaker 4: experience with drinking. Like people would never you know, well,

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Speaker 4: no one ever said I had a problem. But like

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Speaker 4: when you look at kids in college, you're like, oh,

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Speaker 4: that's just college, you know. But looking back now, I

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Speaker 4: can see how much problematic drinking develops in the college

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Speaker 4: time of life because it's just so invited and accepted

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Speaker 4: and encouraged that like, even if someone did sort of

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Speaker 4: have a problem, like there's no way they're going to

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Speaker 4: figure it out in that time period.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of a lot of drinking in college.

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Speaker 4: Over drinking, sometimes I would go a period of time

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Speaker 4: I'd feel really guilty and I like wouldn't drink for

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Speaker 4: thirty days or something like that.

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Speaker 1: But it was just sort of a cycle.

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Speaker 4: And so that played out, went into young adulthood, which

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Speaker 4: really wasn't any better and made a lot of you know,

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Speaker 4: stupid decisions, the things that people do when they're drinking

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Speaker 4: too much and they're young in their twenties, like walking

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Speaker 4: home alone or going to a stranger's house or you know,

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Speaker 4: I don't know, like just unsafe situations that you would

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Speaker 4: never do if you were not drinking. And so, by

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Speaker 4: the grace of God, I didn't get hurt. I was

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Speaker 4: never assaulted. You know, who knows so many things could

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Speaker 4: have happened to me that didn't and and so I'm

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Speaker 4: lucky for that. But as time went on, like it

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Speaker 4: just sort of like took on different iterations and different

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Speaker 4: parts of my life. In my mid twenties, it became

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Speaker 4: sort of a you know, I used it as a like.

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Speaker 1: What's the word I'm looking for?

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Speaker 4: Anxiety, Like anxiety with dating and intimacy and things like that.

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Speaker 4: Like it became like this like numbing thing that I

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Speaker 4: felt like I had to use. And so then I

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Speaker 4: felt like I was like sort of tethered to it

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Speaker 4: in that way. And similarly in Washington, d C. If

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Speaker 4: you're in your twenties especially, it's just like happy hour,

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Speaker 4: happy hour, happy hour, like constant drinking, constant people drinking

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Speaker 4: at lunch. Like it's almost like throw it back to

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Speaker 4: the nineteen fifties sometimes in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 3: Well, and having lived in New York, it was that

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Speaker 3: way too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, like martini lunches and things like that.

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Speaker 2: And I would say, and you can you can attest

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Speaker 2: to this better than I did, because I spent a

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Speaker 2: little time in DC. But like, I think there's a

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Speaker 2: there's actually a lot of governing that gets done over

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Speaker 2: over beers and one percent.

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Speaker 4: It's such a you know, it's like the whole thing

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Speaker 4: about like oh, the Old Boys Club or whatever, and

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Speaker 4: it's like you got to go. You've got to go

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Speaker 4: to the drinks and the happy hours because that's where

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Speaker 4: the friendships and connections and networking is done and where

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Speaker 4: you can actually sort of I don't know, like make

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Speaker 4: deals or like get someone on your side. And like

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Speaker 4: I wasn't like a lobbyist or anything, but I can

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Speaker 4: only imagine how many alcoholic lobbyists there are.

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Speaker 3: Yes, exactly exactly.

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Speaker 1: I mean, those people have to.

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Speaker 4: Go all out, so one hundred percent there's an unhealthy

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Speaker 4: factor there. But I just continued to have like these,

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Speaker 4: you know, these moments, these experiences where I would go

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Speaker 4: out and I would have too much, and I would

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Speaker 4: tell myself, I'd got to stop and let's tone it down,

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Speaker 4: and then you know, a few days go by and

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Speaker 4: I'm back at it again. One particular experience, I remember

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Speaker 4: like it was just one of those things where it

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Speaker 4: was like, I'm a person that actually blacked out, which

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Speaker 4: not everybody does. I think it's really sort of I've

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Speaker 4: read at least that it can be almost like a

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Speaker 4: biological thing, like if you're prone to blackouts or not.

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Speaker 4: But obviously if you drink a lot, like you have

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Speaker 4: drink a lot for that's happened either way. And so

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Speaker 4: I had a lot of those moments where I just

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Speaker 4: don't even remember what happened.

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Speaker 1: And I had one of those.

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Speaker 4: Moments where like brief flashes were coming back and I

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Speaker 4: found myself texting people like I'm sorry, but thinking I

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Speaker 4: don't know what I'm sorry for, and you know, it

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Speaker 4: was just an off. I was like, something is wrong

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Speaker 4: with me, and I'm got to quit drinking. So I

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Speaker 4: quit drinking for thirty days and then I just couldn't

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Speaker 4: do it anymore because I lived with roommates and you know,

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Speaker 4: it went out.

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Speaker 1: All the time.

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Speaker 4: And so long story short, moved that on into I

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Speaker 4: got married, started having kids, and it just moved to

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Speaker 4: a different phase. So it wasn't like I was going

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Speaker 4: out all the time, but it was like, oh, now

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Speaker 4: I'm at home with the wine at five pm, and

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Speaker 4: it's my you know, out, my numbing, my craving, and

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Speaker 4: you know, I begin to do that, and we're at

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Speaker 4: holidays and things like that. It was all about like

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Speaker 4: where's the alcohol, and like how much can I drink?

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Speaker 4: And so it just was this awful cycle, and I

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Speaker 4: began to feel like I'm out of control. I'm telling

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Speaker 4: myself I'm not going to drink today, and then I

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Speaker 4: do it, and then I wake up in the middle

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Speaker 4: of the night and I'm like, oh my gosh, like

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Speaker 4: I literally am not able to not do this. And

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Speaker 4: I started to get more seriously concerned with myself and

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Speaker 4: thinking to myself, are you really going to be doing

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Speaker 4: this when you're seventy five years old, Like you've got

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Speaker 4: to do something about this. So that was just the

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Speaker 4: beginning of like sort of poking around online and being like,

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Speaker 4: you know.

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Speaker 1: Can I manage this? How can I moderate?

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Speaker 4: You know? And that's sort of what led me ultimately

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Speaker 4: to all the resources that put me on the path

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Speaker 4: to sobriety.

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Speaker 2: So I want to go back to a couple things

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Speaker 2: in your story, And I think this is important because

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Speaker 2: maybe there are some people listening who if you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe you're someone listening because you think you have a

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Speaker 2: problem or you want to re reorient yourself or change

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Speaker 2: your relationship with elthcohol. But maybe you're listening to this

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Speaker 2: and your family member and you don't struggle. And I

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Speaker 2: think one of the questions that I've heard a lot

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Speaker 2: have gotten a lot for me personally, is what was

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Speaker 2: your wife thinking? What was your wife doing during this time?

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Speaker 2: Was she you know in a sense, you know, in

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Speaker 2: some of the rougher questions. Was she just letting you

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Speaker 2: do this and didn't care?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: And so how was this affecting your family? How was

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Speaker 2: your husband dealing with this during that time?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's like it's so interesting because the way

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Speaker 4: I describe it is like you might think, oh, I

301
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Speaker 4: was acting erratic, and things like that that wasn't generally

302
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Speaker 4: how I acted, never really for the most part, never

303
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Speaker 4: really personally out of control in my actions or the

304
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Speaker 4: way that I spoke. But for my husband, I don't know,

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Speaker 4: we may be in a different situation simply because he

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Speaker 4: grew up in an alcoholic home where there was abuse

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Speaker 4: and like drug use and violence and so like for

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Speaker 4: me to ever bring up to him, like I think

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Speaker 4: I might have a drinking problem, it almost was like, no,

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Speaker 4: you don't, you know, because he's seen what a truly

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Speaker 4: destructive alcoholic lifestyle can do to a family, and that's

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Speaker 4: not what he was seeing in me. So I totally

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Speaker 4: understand why he's like, you don't have like you're a okay,

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Speaker 4: like you know, And so I didn't. We didn't really

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Speaker 4: talk about it too much, but I saw the way

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Speaker 4: that it created arguments and it just increased my anxiety,

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Speaker 4: which increases the anxiety of the home. And then us

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Speaker 4: like if he was also drinking, like that was very

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Speaker 4: toxic and so I knew, like us drinking together was horrible.

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Speaker 4: And also then I'm sitting here going my kids, my kids,

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Speaker 4: like I don't want them to see this. I don't

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Speaker 4: want this to be normal for them, and I you know,

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Speaker 4: one thing that always struck me. I always thought of

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Speaker 4: as like Brene Brown talked about how when she quit drinking,

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Speaker 4: like I don't I'm gonna get the story a little wrong,

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Speaker 4: but her and her husband basically decided like they weren't

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Speaker 4: going to drink and they weren't going to keep alcohol

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Speaker 4: in the home. And they were like, if we're going

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Speaker 4: to tell our kids that this is bad and that

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Speaker 4: you shouldn't do it, the best way to show them

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Speaker 4: that is to not do it ourselves. And that really

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Speaker 4: suck out to me. I was like, Okay, I want

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Speaker 4: to show them that. And you know, addiction runs in

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Speaker 4: our families, both of our families, and so I'm going

335
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Speaker 4: to tell them about that, but I also need to

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Speaker 4: show them so it wasn't just for them. You know,

337
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Speaker 4: there was a myriad of reasons why this needed to happen,

338
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Speaker 4: but but that did. My kids certainly played into it.

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Speaker 3: We'll be right back after this.

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Speaker 2: So I've I've become a big advocate, and I always

341
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Speaker 2: try to be sure to say that while I had

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Speaker 2: a rock bottom moment, you don't need a rock bottom

343
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Speaker 2: moment to change a relationship with alcohol. But was there

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Speaker 2: at least a season. Was there something that made you

345
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Speaker 2: finally say, Okay, this is it. I mean, you had

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Speaker 2: alluded to like your you know, you took a break.

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Speaker 2: You didn't realize it was going to last four years.

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Speaker 2: So what what was that at least that final thing

349
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Speaker 2: that said, Okay, I'm going to take a break, and

350
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Speaker 2: now it's lasted four years.

351
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Speaker 4: Well, that moment did not come with the four years,

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Speaker 4: because I initially quit drinking for six months and then back.

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Speaker 4: So I would say the real moment there came before

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Speaker 4: those six months, which was it wasn't one particular moment,

355
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Speaker 4: but it was like a series of things. Like I

356
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Speaker 4: would say, one moment that I am writing about in

357
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Speaker 4: my book is.

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Speaker 1: Sitting there.

359
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Speaker 4: Let's see, I'm trying to say I have two moments.

360
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Speaker 4: I'm like, which one should I share? I mean, okay,

361
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Speaker 4: so here's one. So I would sometimes, you know, I

362
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,120
Speaker 4: would always make an excuse to run to Target or croker,

363
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Speaker 4: like because I didn't like to keep alcohol in the

364
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Speaker 4: house because I was like, well, if it's here, I'm

365
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Speaker 4: definitely gonna drink it. So I just won't keep it

366
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Speaker 4: in the house, and then I can't have it unless

367
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Speaker 4: it's like a real hurdle to get over. But many

368
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Speaker 4: times I jumped over that hurdle and I was like, oh,

369
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Speaker 4: I'm gonna run to Target. I'm gonna run to the

370
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Speaker 4: store and get something so then I can also get wine.

371
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Speaker 4: So I, you know, multiple times would get these like

372
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Speaker 4: little four mini bottles of wine because a like you

373
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,040
Speaker 4: can hide them and drink them and nobody.

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Speaker 1: Knows because they're little.

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Speaker 4: You can put them in your first and so I

376
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Speaker 4: would put I put them in the bathroom like upstairs closet,

377
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Speaker 4: kind of hidden, and I would like go in the

378
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Speaker 4: bathroom and like lock the door and like chug one

379
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,440
Speaker 4: down and then go back downstairs. And I might maybe

380
00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,639
Speaker 4: we're drinking a bottle of wine downstairs, but like I

381
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:16,359
Speaker 4: wanted more than that, but I didn't, you know what

382
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:17,600
Speaker 4: I mean, It was like this whole game.

383
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Speaker 3: You didn't want to make it seem like you needed

384
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Speaker 3: or wanted more.

385
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Speaker 4: Than right, right, And I'm like, okay, like that that's

386
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Speaker 4: messed up behavior, Like that's not normal behavior.

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Speaker 1: That was one thing. And then.

388
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Speaker 4: You know, I really had to watch myself with liquor

389
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Speaker 4: because like vodka, like it was such a like if

390
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,879
Speaker 4: I had. If I had that like just in the

391
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Speaker 4: freezer or something like, I would just like literally like

392
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Speaker 4: walk by, take it out and like chug it, put

393
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,480
Speaker 4: it back, okay, And so I didn't I for the

394
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,760
Speaker 4: most part, would not allow myself to buy it because

395
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:57,040
Speaker 4: I was so afraid of what could happen. So I

396
00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,840
Speaker 4: was able to place some limits on myself because I

397
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,800
Speaker 4: I'd seen what could happen with it. So there were

398
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Speaker 4: moments like that, and then, like I said, the moment

399
00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:06,760
Speaker 4: when I would say I'm not going to drink today,

400
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:08,000
Speaker 4: and then I would and I would wake up in

401
00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:09,240
Speaker 4: the middle of the night and I would have this

402
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:10,920
Speaker 4: like intense fear like.

403
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:13,000
Speaker 1: What is it?

404
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,679
Speaker 4: I can't say no, and it would just really and

405
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,000
Speaker 4: that just I think that just started to happen more frequently,

406
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,959
Speaker 4: and I was just like is this all there is?

407
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:24,840
Speaker 4: Am I really gonna be doing this? And then you know,

408
00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,479
Speaker 4: thinking about the health concerns like I'm getting older, like

409
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,920
Speaker 4: what am I doing to my body? And so all

410
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,960
Speaker 4: of that sort of came to a head, and I

411
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,120
Speaker 4: think I did a couple thirty day sort of challenges

412
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:37,680
Speaker 4: where I was like sort of hanging by a thread

413
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:44,400
Speaker 4: and like barely barely making it and ultimately did get

414
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,920
Speaker 4: to a point where it did six months and then

415
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:53,479
Speaker 4: then COVID hit and I just like my neighbors everyone's

416
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 4: outside drinking, and I was just like, oh, it's.

417
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,360
Speaker 1: Summer, and like, oh, you know, and I just ended

418
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Speaker 1: up giving it.

419
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Speaker 2: Did you think when you did the six months? Did

420
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Speaker 2: you think did you go into it with the intentions

421
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Speaker 2: of never drinking again.

422
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,720
Speaker 4: Well, I've never been uh the kind of you know,

423
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,120
Speaker 4: it's obvious, it's really hard to think that long. It's

424
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 4: really hard to be like, uh forever. So I never

425
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 4: really would let myself go there. But I think I

426
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,960
Speaker 4: was like, Okay, I'm gonna, you know, try to do

427
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,040
Speaker 4: this for thirty days and then like we'll see what happens,

428
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:25,880
Speaker 4: you know. And I was, you know, feeling, I guess,

429
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 4: feeling good after the thirty days and starting to feel

430
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,440
Speaker 4: stronger and so so that's that's what happened with the

431
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:36,360
Speaker 4: six months, and then I drank at covid and then

432
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:39,359
Speaker 4: the at first it was like, oh, this is fine,

433
00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:41,200
Speaker 4: Like I don't have a problem, you know, But then

434
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:42,879
Speaker 4: by you know the end of the summer, I was

435
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 4: like back to all the old habits, and I was like,

436
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 4: it's not fine, Like it doesn't work. And so that's

437
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,880
Speaker 4: when I actually finally sort of found a community and

438
00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:01,119
Speaker 4: started like going through the memoirs, listening to all the podcasts,

439
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,920
Speaker 4: like I just like drenched myself in so variety world.

440
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, to get through.

441
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,239
Speaker 4: I was like, because I had heard someone say, you

442
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 4: can't just do thirty days, like you have to do

443
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,119
Speaker 4: ninety days to really know what it feels like to

444
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 4: truly give it up. And so I set my eye

445
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,119
Speaker 4: on that. I was like, Okay, ninety days, I'm going

446
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,920
Speaker 4: to do ninety days. And so that is how that began,

447
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,440
Speaker 4: with a lot of support and also, like I haven't

448
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,240
Speaker 4: mentioned yet, like speaking with my church community and my

449
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,359
Speaker 4: small group and friends and all of that.

450
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 2: So that brings up a good point because I think

451
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people who are afraid, you know,

452
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,439
Speaker 2: maybe they're like, Okay, I can do you know, I

453
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 2: can do thirty days, I can do six ninety months.

454
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 2: Excuse me, ninety days, I can do six months. Maybe

455
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,360
Speaker 2: I can even do forever. But the idea of then

456
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 2: telling other people, you know, and in a sense being

457
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,360
Speaker 2: very open and vulnerable about why how do what did

458
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 2: you say? What were you saying to your church community.

459
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 2: What were you saying to your you know people even

460
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,679
Speaker 2: who are outside of sober world, right, How were you

461
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:02,880
Speaker 2: explaining it to them?

462
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 3: Did you have fear there and how did you overcome that?

463
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 4: Well? I think I started by sharing a little bit

464
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 4: online where I would sort of like be like, yeah,

465
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 4: I think you know, kind of alluding like I think

466
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,439
Speaker 4: I have like an unhealthy relationship with alcohol, and so

467
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 4: I'm trying to cut back sort of just like little

468
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:21,680
Speaker 4: bits out there just is like see what are people

469
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 4: going to say, Like when I talk about this like

470
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 4: a little bit, I'm not going to like all out

471
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 4: and be like I had a drinking problem. But I

472
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 4: did start to sort of sprinkle it in there with

473
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 4: various social media posts and things, and just that sort

474
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 4: of sort of built up my courage to be more honest. Ultimately,

475
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,640
Speaker 4: I spoke. I had a really small church at the time,

476
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,440
Speaker 4: but I did speak in front of my church about

477
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,439
Speaker 4: like God has like really delivered me from this, like,

478
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,679
Speaker 4: which was not something I'm saying everybody needs to do.

479
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 4: That was just sort of my calling to do. And

480
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 4: I just said, I don't know that I told like

481
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:57,880
Speaker 4: all the horror stories, but I did sort of give

482
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 4: the background and talk about how this has been like

483
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 4: a thorn in my side. This has been like a

484
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 4: struggle for many years, and like, you know, now I'm

485
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 4: this long sober, and.

486
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 1: I just I think it was really scary at first.

487
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 4: And I think mostly because you are so worried about

488
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 4: all the judgments that people are gonna make, not because

489
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,400
Speaker 4: necessarily those judgments are true, but because they're not true.

490
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 4: You're like, well, what if people people have a lot

491
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 4: of stereotypes of alcoholics and I don't.

492
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 1: I also wouldn't.

493
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 4: I don't say I'm an alcoholic, Like that doesn't sound

494
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:28,919
Speaker 4: right to me.

495
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 1: Even if it is right, I don't know.

496
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 4: Like there's a there's a lot of sensitivities to words,

497
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 4: and uh so I just was like, you know, at

498
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 4: this point, you know, here i am almost five years later,

499
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 4: I'm going I just have to let go of whatever

500
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 4: people think that means. Like there may be people that

501
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,160
Speaker 4: think like one thing about what it means to be

502
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 4: having an addiction to alcohol, but but my everybody's story

503
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,880
Speaker 4: is different. And I think that by sharing and really

504
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 4: being open about it, like more people will seek help

505
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 4: and like come out of their struggle. Like they won't

506
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 4: stay hidden and silent because they'll realize that, like normal

507
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 4: people have this problem, Like you're not destined to be

508
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 4: homeless and lose your home just because you have a

509
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 4: drinking problem. And I think for me, when I first

510
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 4: started this exploration, you know, several years before I stopped drinking,

511
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 4: I was just like, I don't see anyone like me,

512
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 4: Like I don't know any like church going Christian girls

513
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 4: that are having this problem.

514
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 1: And so who can I even tell or talk to?

515
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 1: I don't know.

516
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up.

517
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 2: And you know, I think, like you said, I think

518
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 2: one thing I've learned as I've been on this journey

519
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 2: is that there is a sensitivity to words and.

520
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 3: Definitions and labels.

521
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 2: And I'm not, like I get it, and yet I

522
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 2: think there's freedom like one of the reasons I like

523
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 2: calling maybe not maybe not like as a like is

524
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 2: this too strong a term? One of the reasons I

525
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 2: don't mind using alcoholic to describe myself. But it is

526
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 2: actually for the same reason that you don't, which is fine,

527
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 2: And that's because I want to redeem it in a

528
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 2: way like or that may again, maybe that's wrong. We're

529
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 2: but it's like, you know, read you've read my book,

530
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 2: Like I go through a whole chapter of explaining what

531
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: alcoholic really means. So I want to call myself an

532
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 2: alcoholics so that people look and be like, well, wait,

533
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 2: you don't quite look like we refine yeah, And I'm like,

534
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 2: exactly exactly. I'm trying to redefine it exactly. And so

535
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 2: I think that's so. I think that's important, right, And

536
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 2: I think that's okay for people, Like some people don't

537
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,120
Speaker 2: like it, some people do, That's fine. What you said

538
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 2: though at the end, I think is really important is

539
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 2: that you looked around in the Christian community and you

540
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 2: didn't see anyone else like you, at least anyone else

541
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 2: that was talking about it, right. And I think that

542
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 2: brings us a little bit too. One of the ways

543
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 2: that I found you or was introduced to you, was

544
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 2: because of this Great Christianity Today article that you wrote

545
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 2: in in twenty twenty four, and it was the sin

546
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 2: of mommy wine culture, right. And I think what we've

547
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,719
Speaker 2: seen and what i'd love to get your thoughts on,

548
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 2: is that mommy wine culture has permeated the church, especially

549
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 2: Christian women, and there are there are many that are

550
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 2: struggling with their relationship with alcohol, and yet they're doing

551
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 2: it in secret because they look around and the church

552
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 2: isn't really open about that or welcoming to people like that.

553
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 2: So explain to me, Explain to us. First of all,

554
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:39,479
Speaker 2: how did that? How do you feel like the mommy

555
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 2: wine culture, you know, wormed its way into the church

556
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 2: and maybe it's not even that hard.

557
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know.

558
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 4: If it's so much necessarily just the mommy wine culture.

559
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 4: I did not I didn't headline that article, but but

560
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 4: you know, I think as so much as just like

561
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 4: women in general, regardless of age.

562
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's certainly part of it.

563
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 4: And it's just it's not like that that sort of

564
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 4: uh moniker or whatever is is was created outside the church.

565
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 4: And that's coming from you know, the the T shirts

566
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 4: and the posters and the memes of all like bring

567
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,719
Speaker 4: me all the wine, and like, especially during COVID, it

568
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 4: was ridiculous and just you know, whine this, why that,

569
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 4: And it's just like it just becomes celebrated and it

570
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 4: becomes normal even at like church small groups, like I

571
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 4: talk about how I've had small groups where where like

572
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 4: we went out and we're drinking where like girls' nights

573
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 4: where we're drinking wine, which which I'm not saying drinking

574
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 4: wine in and of itself is sinful, but it just

575
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 4: it's just becomes so normalized where nobody's wondering, hey, could

576
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 4: anybody in this group potentially be struggling with this and

577
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 4: almost like not even like almost like that's not even

578
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 4: poss that that would be happening, whereas like nobody is

579
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 4: going to be bringing in like, you know, pot like

580
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,959
Speaker 4: you I'd be like, hey, anybody wants some of this,

581
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 4: like while we're sitting here reading the Bible, you know,

582
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 4: And I think, you know, one of the biggest things

583
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 4: that I learned in this journey is just that like

584
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 4: alcohol is a drug, and it's a legal drug, but

585
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 4: it has had really big consequences on families, on individuals,

586
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 4: on society in ways that people really just don't seem

587
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 4: to acknowledge. Like if we really, if we put the

588
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 4: statistics on the wall during happy hour of what alcohol

589
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 4: has done to families through violence and generational trauma and

590
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 4: all of this stuff, like I think people would really

591
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,719
Speaker 4: think twice about like how lightly they're taking, like how

592
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 4: lightly they're taking this subject. So I think with the

593
00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 4: church with women. To get back to the point, we

594
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 4: are all just like women in the culture. Yes we're Christians,

595
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 4: but we're still affected by the culture. And so I

596
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 4: often use this same statistic, like you hear a lot,

597
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 4: this isn't the subject we're talking about, that like one

598
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 4: in five women in the church has had an abortion

599
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 4: for example. Well you could say the same thing about

600
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:18,719
Speaker 4: like one. I think the stats kind of line up

601
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 4: in that one in five women in the church have

602
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 4: an issue with their drinking, because that's the culture at large,

603
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 4: and the church is though we are Christians, I mean,

604
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 4: we may pursue different avenues or whatever to deal with

605
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 4: things like, we still are affected by those ways of

606
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 4: the world and the sinful things that happen and so

607
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 4: and so. I think just like women of the world

608
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 4: and around us began to have more drinking issues, so

609
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 4: too did the women inside the church. But the church,

610
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 4: you know, who should be sort of there to address

611
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 4: some of these changing issues, I don't think has addressed it.

612
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 4: And I'm not hating on the church because like the

613
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 4: church is supposed to like all everything, Like, there's so

614
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 4: much pressure on churches, and so I have a lot

615
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 4: of compassion for what they are doing and trying to do.

616
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 4: But I do think it's like worth the awareness that hey,

617
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 4: this is a trend that's happening and you should be

618
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 4: aware of it for your women's programs, ministries, family programs,

619
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 4: like this should be something that you're thinking about. And

620
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 4: I don't think it has been brought in. I don't

621
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 4: think it's I think it's rarely spoken of sometimes because

622
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 4: there's a lot of conversation regarding legalism, and some people

623
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 4: grew up in these very fundamentalist styles of worship and

624
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 4: they're like, oh, legalistic, but it's like that, that's not

625
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 4: what I'm talking about here. You know, I'm not talking

626
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 4: about legalism. I'm talking about like actual like you're having

627
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 4: an issue with it, and so it's worth being careful

628
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 4: around that when you're talking with the church and offering

629
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 4: like just options like hey, like if you're dealing with this,

630
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 4: like here's a place you can go talk about it.

631
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, anonymously.

632
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know the latest buzz which is

633
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 2: not bad. I think the church should be addressing this.

634
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 2: But I think the church has no problem bringing someone

635
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 2: in to talk about tech addictions and how to be

636
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 2: off your phones and be a better parent like that way,

637
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 2: and the dangers of technology, right, And yet I've not

638
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 2: seen the last time and even just in any church

639
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 2: around me and my own, and I love my church, right,

640
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 2: has brought in someone to talk about addiction in the

641
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 2: sense of alcohol or drugs or anything like that, right, Right.

642
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 4: And I think it's like the tech thing is so

643
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 4: obvious because we're all on our phones, but with this

644
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 4: kind of thing, whether it's alcohol or something else that

645
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 4: you're addicted to, like, of course no one's talking about it,

646
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 4: but you have to look at the data to see

647
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 4: and like the data reveals all that there is a

648
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 4: growing problem, a silent growing problem.

649
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 3: And so.

650
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 4: I think that pastors should be or church staff or

651
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 4: whatever should be aware of this and how it is,

652
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 4: you know, maybe affecting families in ways that like don't

653
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 4: seem connected but are.

654
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 2: And what I would say is, I've had people ask me, so,

655
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 2: what is your like what are you asking for?

656
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 3: John?

657
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 2: And I think what like one of the very practical

658
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 2: things I'm asking churches to do is talk about it

659
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 2: more on Sundays. Don't relegate it just to your recovery

660
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 2: minister or your care and pastries, right, Like you talk

661
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 2: about phone use on Sundays, You talk about adultery and

662
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 2: being faithful on Sundays, right, Like, you know, talk about

663
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 2: it on Sundays.

664
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 3: Find ways to bring it up.

665
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 2: You know.

666
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 3: There were some of the most powerful reels.

667
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 2: Or videos I've seen on the Internet are ones where

668
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 2: pastors brought it up on Sunday and said, hey, guys, like,

669
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 2: if you're, you know, using the Bible to justify getting drunk,

670
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 2: guess what that's wrong. And I would say I was right,

671
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 2: maybe not fully using the Bible to justify it, but

672
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 2: I was like, uh, you know, to your point that

673
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 2: culture has changed.

674
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 3: This was legalistic.

675
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 2: You know, I was brought up this way, and it's

676
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 2: like I could have used a couple more of those

677
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 2: type of sermons.

678
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I haven't heard it much someone like

679
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 4: the reminder like, hey, drunkenness is wrong. That's not legalism,

680
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 4: that's right, Like, that's that's what it is. The Bible

681
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 4: clearly says this, and it's like, I mean, I think

682
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 4: I think people a lot of people are towing the line.

683
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 4: I think they're they're They're like, I'm not really getting drunk,

684
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 4: it's just sort of like getting buzzed.

685
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: And like feeling good.

686
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 4: But it's like if you're questioning that, like there's a

687
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 4: reason and and you know, I just think that, yeah,

688
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 4: there's People don't really want to address it. They just

689
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 4: kind of want to Like I'm comfortable with this, but

690
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 4: you know, it would be uncomfortable to let go of

691
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 4: this even if it's not a huge problem.

692
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: But is it? Is it an idol in any way? Too?

693
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 2: Like?

694
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 4: Is it? Is it glorifying God? Is it uplifting your

695
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 4: brothers and sisters? Is it contributing to positive things in

696
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 4: your family?

697
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: Or not? Like?

698
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 4: Really, like making a simple pros and cons list can

699
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 4: go a long way.

700
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 2: Right, what have you What kind of reception have you said?

701
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 2: You talk about this a lot now, Yeah, what kind

702
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:19,240
Speaker 2: of reception have you gotten from I mean just people?

703
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,320
Speaker 3: Right? And what have you gotten from churches?

704
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,280
Speaker 1: Well? Great reception from everyone?

705
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 4: Really, I mean I think people are always like, you know,

706
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,879
Speaker 4: very like like like to be proud of people for

707
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:31,959
Speaker 4: you know, achieving a goal.

708
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 1: But it's it's more like, you know, good for you

709
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: for a lot of people.

710
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 4: And I'm thankful that people are not weird about it.

711
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 4: Like I've only had a couple times where people like, oh,

712
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 4: do you mind if I order a drink? And I'm

713
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 4: always like, oh, yeah, like I'm not gonna like, I

714
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 4: don't care if somebody orders a drink, and that doesn't

715
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 4: happen very often, although you know, it's nice for someone

716
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:48,919
Speaker 4: to ask.

717
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: I guess if they're being you know, if they're worried about.

718
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 4: It, but you know, lots of cheers, congratulations, good I think.

719
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 4: And I also, you know, have gotten quite a few

720
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,240
Speaker 4: people over the past years where I'll get a message

721
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 4: is like, hey, like you really inspired me to to

722
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 4: really look at this, and I just hit one year sober,

723
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 4: Like someone that didn't talk to me the whole year,

724
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 4: but then they come to say, I just hit one

725
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 4: year sober and it was like, really because of you

726
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 4: talking about it that I was able to do it.

727
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 4: And like I'm always like, really nice to meet you.

728
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 4: Like I had no idea that like what I was,

729
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 4: But I do believe that this. I do believe what

730
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 4: I'm putting out there is making a difference, making people

731
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 4: think twice.

732
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: And I've had you know, I've had a lot of interests.

733
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: People want to talk to me about it.

734
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 4: People are very curious about like having this conversation so

735
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 4: I've had I've had invitations to be on podcasts to

736
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 4: talk about it, and you know, I've had the opportunity

737
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 4: to write these, Like I've written three huge articles, one

738
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,240
Speaker 4: for the New York Times, one for the Wall Street Journal,

739
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 4: and one for Christianity Today.

740
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: And hopefully there'll be more to come.

741
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:56,720
Speaker 4: Because like, people are very fascinated by this, and people

742
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 4: are I before I was sober, I was very fascinated

743
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:01,240
Speaker 4: by people that were sober.

744
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 1: Like I was like, how do you what?

745
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 4: Like I would be I would like gobble it up,

746
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 4: being like how do they do this? Almost like can

747
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 4: I like can you transfer this to me by osmosis?

748
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 4: Like I also want to do this, but I don't

749
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 4: feel like I can. And so I think there's a lot.

750
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: Of that out there.

751
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 3: We'll be right back after this.

752
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 2: What what do you think that shift? If there's been

753
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 2: a shift? It sounds like you're talking in a sense

754
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 2: a little bit about a shift, right that even in

755
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 2: the broader culture in New York Times, Wall Street Journal,

756
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 2: I think sobriety is catching on. Even you don't have

757
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 2: to be a Christian, right there's a whole community and

758
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 2: genre of people who are just chasing health benefits right.

759
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 2: For example, where do you think the shift? What do

760
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 2: you think has helped that shift?

761
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 3: Is it? Is it coming off of COVID?

762
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 2: Like everyone just drink till they couldn't, you know, sleep anymore,

763
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 2: and then they realized, oh, like what where do you

764
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 2: think this shift has occurred?

765
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 3: And why?

766
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 4: Well? I think that this We've become a more health

767
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 4: conscious society lately. I think that you can see that

768
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 4: in you know, Make America Healthy Again, you know, with

769
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 4: Robert f r RFKA. And then there's you know, been

770
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 4: bigger names coming out, like you know, like Casey Means

771
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,879
Speaker 4: with her book Good Energy, and like there's just been

772
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 4: like broader cultural conversation about health. And I think also

773
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 4: like there wasn't a lot of talker studies about the

774
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,359
Speaker 4: harms of alcohol and how how truly bad it is

775
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 4: for you. And it's like, if you're gonna be a

776
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 4: vegan or if you're gonna cut you know whatever out

777
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 4: of your diet and you're trying to be clean, you

778
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 4: cannot be drinking with that. Like it just doesn't work. Now,

779
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 4: I'm not saying a little bit of wine red wine

780
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 4: here and there is gonna you know, tank your health.

781
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 4: But I just do think that people are becoming more aware,

782
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 4: and I think with alcohol, they're like, oh, that's like

783
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 4: a two sided benefit, because I really drink too much anyway,

784
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 4: and it gives me headaches, and the older.

785
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 1: I get, the harder it is. And so if it's

786
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: actually healthier not to drink, you know, double whammy right

787
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 1: on that.

788
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 4: And so I think there are people that don't really

789
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 4: have a problem, and I think there are a lot

790
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 4: of people that question. Like I have a friend who's

791
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 4: kind of like very curious, like she doesn't really like

792
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 4: overdrink or like feel like it's controlling her, but she does.

793
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,439
Speaker 4: She is kind of like, oh, maybe I shouldn't drink

794
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 4: like four nights a week, like even just like a

795
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 4: couple of glasses of wine, Like I feel like, maybe

796
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 4: that's not great. And so there are people like that

797
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 4: that are just sort of like, oh, this could be

798
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 4: a trend I could hop onto and then people will

799
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 4: go and they'll not drink, and they'll realize how much

800
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 4: better they feel, and then they'll stick with it because

801
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 4: of that.

802
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 3: What was the hardest part for you about giving up?

803
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 4: I think the hardest part initially was just imagining all

804
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 4: the experiences that I would have without it. And there's

805
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 4: you know, I'm sure you've thought about this, talked about this,

806
00:39:54,520 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 4: but we've been drinking at every event forever since, you know,

807
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 4: since we were basically teenagers at least I had, and

808
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 4: so every fun thing I'd ever done was associated with alcohol,

809
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:16,839
Speaker 4: and so my brain couldn't separate the two, couldn't separate. Vacation, holidays, parties, concerts,

810
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,439
Speaker 4: all of that was wound together like, oh, these two

811
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 4: things go together. If you take away the alcohol, this

812
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 4: is gonna suck. And I just like, oh, I can't

813
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 4: go to that without drinking. And so there was a

814
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 4: lot of mental roller coaster to get over there, or

815
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 4: mental hill to get over imagining going to do my.

816
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 1: Life without this alcohol.

817
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 4: And sure there are some moments where I'm like, oh,

818
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 4: wouldn't it be nice, wouldn't it be nice to have

819
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 4: this right now?

820
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 1: But overall, I don't.

821
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 4: I'm not like seeing a major difference, because what you

822
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 4: realize is that those events were special because of what

823
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 4: they were and who was there and the environment you

824
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 4: were in, and the alcohol was like small part of

825
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,240
Speaker 4: that for the most part, but it wasn't the essential

826
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 4: ingredient and it never was.

827
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:10,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, so true. And I think that's I would agree.

828
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 2: And I think the hardest you know, for me, why

829
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 2: the first year, if you will, was was hard. It

830
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 2: was part of the main reason was it was like

831
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 2: it was like, you know, I've lost two family members, right,

832
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,839
Speaker 2: and so they talk about the first year in grief, right,

833
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,359
Speaker 2: it's like everything is the first time without them, right,

834
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 2: It's the first Christmas.

835
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:32,919
Speaker 3: It's the first person.

836
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, you know.

837
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 2: And and honestly, and I've talked about this before, like

838
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 2: I went through a grieving period without with having alcohol.

839
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,800
Speaker 2: So it was like it was my first Christmas without alcohol.

840
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 2: It was my first Christmas, it was my first Fourth

841
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 2: of July.

842
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 1: It is a grief. I just thought about this yesterday.

843
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 4: I was just because you know, maybe you've seen this

844
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 4: graphic of like this, like it's this beautiful, like moving

845
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 4: visual of like this is how grief is. It starts

846
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 4: like this big boulder, and then as time goes on,

847
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 4: it stays this weight, but you get stronger, and you know,

848
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 4: it's just a different kind of And I said, you know,

849
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 4: that actually reminds me of the way it is with alcohol,

850
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 4: Like it starts off this huge, huge, huge lift, but

851
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 4: as time goes on, like it's still there, but you

852
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 4: get stronger and therefore it becomes less difficult to carry yea,

853
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 4: and yeah, like it's like getting through those first and

854
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 4: so you have to believe the people that have gone

855
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 4: before you and saying it does get easier, but it's

856
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 4: super hard right now.

857
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,280
Speaker 1: And so on those holidays, in those.

858
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 4: First like, you have to like stock up your toolbox,

859
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 4: Like you have to have people you can call in text,

860
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,359
Speaker 4: you have to have meetings on the docket, you have

861
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,479
Speaker 4: to have things you're going to do, like a list

862
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 4: of you know, you need to prepare or if you

863
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 4: don't prepare, you're gonna you know, easily fall off the wagon.

864
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:42,879
Speaker 2: There.

865
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 1: But like having trust in those who tell.

866
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 4: You that it does get easier and that you will

867
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 4: not always feel this way, it's really hard to believe

868
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 4: in the moment.

869
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 1: Though.

870
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,919
Speaker 2: I think the old adage is true, right, like if

871
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 2: you fail to plan, you will plan to fail. Yeah,

872
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 2: And I think that's important, right And and I think

873
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 2: you know, it's no surprise to me that that when

874
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 2: I relapsed in my first year, it was over a

875
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 2: holiday weekend, fourth of July, right, It was like because

876
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 2: fourth of July was like you know, I was a

877
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 2: heavy drinker anyways, and.

878
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,439
Speaker 3: I had I had all the excuses I could start.

879
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 2: I could get up and start drinking the moment I

880
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 2: woke up, right because fourth of July, everyone, you know,

881
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 2: people who who weren't drinking were, and people who were

882
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 2: who would usually drink a little were drinking more. And

883
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 2: so that hey, you know, and I didn't have a plan.

884
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 2: I was also still a little bit not in denial,

885
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 2: but I was. I was still getting through shame, and

886
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 2: so I wasn't telling a lot of people that I

887
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 2: had stopped or that I wasn't drinking.

888
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 3: Right, And so.

889
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 2: I didn't invite I hadn't invited people in. And so

890
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 2: I think that's another that's another tip. You're working on

891
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 2: a new book to come out next year, tell us

892
00:43:58,239 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 2: about that.

893
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 4: Yes, so you know, this is this is the book

894
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 4: that I wish I would have had available to me,

895
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:07,360
Speaker 4: as so many so many of us say about the

896
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 4: books that we write, and that's why we write them

897
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,320
Speaker 4: because they don't exist yet. But if you look around,

898
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 4: there are very very few resources for Christians specifically. That's

899
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 4: why you wear your book as well. And and you know,

900
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 4: I have been a part of several recovery communities. One

901
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:24,799
Speaker 4: specifically that I really love and I always talk about

902
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 4: at the Luckiest Club was huge in my first year

903
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 4: of recovery. Still highly recommend it, but it is a

904
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 4: very non I mean I'm not saying like they were

905
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 4: hostile to me, but like you know, as a Christian,

906
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 4: like we look to scripture, we look to prayer, we

907
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 4: look to Jesus, and those things are just not part

908
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 4: of those recovery communities. And actually it gets very like

909
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 4: New agey and like almost like Buddhist in some of

910
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:52,840
Speaker 4: those places, because people are just like talking about the

911
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 4: universe and the energy and karma and stuff, and like

912
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:01,760
Speaker 4: that loses me because I just don't think that way.

913
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,720
Speaker 4: And so I just, you know, sometimes felt like where

914
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,399
Speaker 4: is the conversation for me as a Christian to talk

915
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 4: about this? And so even though it helped, like I

916
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 4: still felt like, you know, there isn't there's not a

917
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 4: book out there speaking to.

918
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 1: This specific thing.

919
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 4: And so my book is for Christian women who are

920
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 4: questioning their relationship with alcohol, with like a different relationship

921
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 4: with alcohol, or just want to get curious about like

922
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 4: how is this impacting my life? And the idea behind

923
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 4: the book is, once you read this book, you'll never

924
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 4: think about alcohol the same way again. And I think

925
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 4: people will walk away. Like I'm not saying you'll walk

926
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 4: away not drinking. I mean I am saying you'll walk

927
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 4: away and you won't be able to stop thinking about

928
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 4: what you've learned, and you'll look at this relationship with

929
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 4: alcohol from a new perspective, from a healthier perspective, and

930
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 4: an empowered perspective. And that's that's what I want to do,

931
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 4: because I don't want to force you to stop drinking.

932
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 4: I just want you to like start asking questions about

933
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,399
Speaker 4: is drinking actually benefiting you in any way?

934
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 2: And I think what I've learned in being in this

935
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 2: space is is these resources are so so helpful, especially

936
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 2: as you're just I mean, I consumed so much with you.

937
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 4: Know.

938
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 3: What we joke about is quit lit.

939
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,359
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, I have. I'm still doing it. I

940
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 4: love reading it. I love reading quit lit.

941
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 2: Yes, And so I'm excited. I'm excited for this book,

942
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 2: this book to come up. I can't even though I'm

943
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 2: a man, I can't wait to read it. I know

944
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 2: there's not many resources for men. I'm hoping my book

945
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,879
Speaker 2: becomes one of one of the go to resources not

946
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 2: just for men but for women.

947
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 1: But also we'll do a partner event.

948
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly if people want to go, you do coaching.

949
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:49,399
Speaker 3: You do writing coaching as well.

950
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 2: If people have things they want to say and they

951
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 2: want to get published in the Wall Street Journal in

952
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 2: New York Times, you try to help them get that done.

953
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 2: So where can they go for define you to help

954
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 2: them as well as your books.

955
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think if you're a writer, I think,

956
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 4: like I've always been a writer, and I do think

957
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:11,720
Speaker 4: that writing is like not only therapeutic and like good

958
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 4: for you as a recovery exercise or just as an

959
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 4: exercise for anything that you're dealing with. But I also

960
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 4: think like if you feel compelled to share something, whether

961
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 4: it's this kind of struggle or another, I think writing

962
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 4: essays and getting your words out there in front of

963
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 4: people is really really powerful and can make a huge difference.

964
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 4: I can tell you that the response I've gotten from

965
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 4: the things that I've written.

966
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 1: And published is huge.

967
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 4: I get people that you know will tell me, like,

968
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,360
Speaker 4: you wrote that for me, this is what I needed

969
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 4: to see today. I didn't know anyone else felt like this.

970
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 4: I've gotten emails from people that are like, I'm a

971
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 4: pastor's wife and I really can't tell anyone about this,

972
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 4: but like I just needed to like reach out to

973
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 4: someone and like say out loud, and so you could

974
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,760
Speaker 4: be that person for someone you don't know how God's

975
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 4: going to use your story, and I encourage writing to

976
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 4: do that. So all that to be said, I do

977
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 4: writing coaching on how to to get published and get

978
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:07,879
Speaker 4: your words out there in a wider way. So that's

979
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,399
Speaker 4: something I do at my website pitch and Published dot

980
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 4: co or pitch and Published on Instagram.

981
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 1: But then otherwise, you know, I've got my.

982
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 4: Author website, Erica Anderson dot com, which has you know,

983
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 4: my other books and all kinds of things, and so

984
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 4: I would love to connect with you on either platform

985
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:27,760
Speaker 4: and just you know, hear your story.

986
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 2: And that's Anderson with an E. But we'll also have

987
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 2: the link in the show notes. So, Erica, thank you

988
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 2: so much. I've just you know, you've been one of

989
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,360
Speaker 2: those people that it has been so good to walk

990
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 2: this uh this journey with and and and consume what

991
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 2: you're writing. Like you said, we come from such a

992
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 2: such a similar background and it's.

993
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 3: Like, ah, yeah, that's refreshing. Yeah, so thank you.

994
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 2: Cannot wait for this new book to come out, and

995
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 2: we'll be talking to you soon, I'm sure.

996
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: Thank you.

997
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 2: How many of us have said what Eric has said

998
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 2: that where we've we've we've looked around and we say,

999
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 2: I don't see anyone like me. And the truth is,

1000
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 2: and this is why I'm passionate about this podcast, the

1001
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,760
Speaker 2: book that I wrote, Erica's Book and what's coming next

1002
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:19,279
Speaker 2: wink wink, is because I think too many people in

1003
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 2: the church, too many Christians look around and say, I

1004
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 2: don't see anyone like me. But the truth is, there

1005
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 2: are so many of people like you around, people like

1006
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 2: me around. We have just been taught to hide it.

1007
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 2: We have been taught to over spiritualize it. We have

1008
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 2: been taught to spiritually bypass it. We have been taught

1009
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 2: to not be open and radically vulnerable about what we're

1010
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 2: going through. And that's what I think is well one

1011
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 2: of the great benefits of Erica's story, right, This is,

1012
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 2: like I said in the intro, someone who was working

1013
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 2: in the power in the halls of DC politics, who

1014
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 2: has rubbed shoulders with some pretty incredible people, who has

1015
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 2: written some pretty incredible stories, who has written for some

1016
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 2: powerful publications like The New York Times and the Wall

1017
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 2: Street Journal, and yet she was struggling, right, And so

1018
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,800
Speaker 2: I think again, if Erica can struggle, anyone can struggle.

1019
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 2: If I can struggle, anyone can struggle. If you can struggle,

1020
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 2: anyone can struggle. And I hope you are finding out

1021
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 2: by listening to this podcast, by reading all books like

1022
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 2: Freely Sober, like Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic, that addiction

1023
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,400
Speaker 2: doesn't care who you are, what you look like, and

1024
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:37,839
Speaker 2: it can wrap anyone up because again, like I said

1025
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 2: to the intro, like the quote from Auden, all sins

1026
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,240
Speaker 2: tend to be addictive, right, All sins tend to be addictive.

1027
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:46,719
Speaker 2: So that's why I can say with so much confidence,

1028
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 2: we are all addicted to something because we all have

1029
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:51,919
Speaker 2: sin in our lives. So listen, friend, I just want

1030
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 2: you to know you are not alone. And so hopefully

1031
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 2: you saw yourself a little bit in Erica's story.

1032
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 3: I really encourage you.

1033
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,399
Speaker 2: Please pick up her book, Freely Sober, that just came

1034
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 2: out this week.

1035
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 3: I think it will be helpful.

1036
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 2: There's discussion, questions, there's reflection opportunities at the end of

1037
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 2: each chapter, I was honored to write an endorsement for it,

1038
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,319
Speaker 2: and so again I'm holding it up here. If you're

1039
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:20,879
Speaker 2: watching this podcast at the Veritas Daily dot com, and

1040
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 2: I think it is worth your time. If you are

1041
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 2: looking for a next step, go pick it up. Thank

1042
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 2: you as always for listening. Thank you to our audio partner,

1043
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 2: our podcast partner, Life Audio, who has made this possible.

1044
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 2: I really appreciate what they have done to get this

1045
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 2: message out. And like I say, if there's one thing

1046
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,319
Speaker 2: that has stood out to you in this podcast, please

1047
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:50,320
Speaker 2: share it. Please share it with someone, whether to encourage

1048
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 2: them or to let them know that you are taking

1049
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:55,719
Speaker 2: steps necessary.

1050
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 3: We will be back next week. Love you all, talk

1051
00:51:58,480 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 3: to it